PDA

View Full Version : What do you make of the huge Pts/Reb/Ast totals on low efficiency?



Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 12:53 AM
Lebron (finals) and Westbrook (2nd half of reg season) put up these monster stats on super high usage but low efficiency. is it impressive to you? Obviously when you have the ball the whole game you put up alot of counting stats, but you also shoot low %s and turnover the ball a ton. However, it takes a super athlete to play 40+ mins per game and always control the ball with several below average teammates. The only guys in the league that can do this are the 2 guys that did this year, and maybe Anthony Davis.

the #s are obviously deceiving to people. Some are praising LBJ for the #s he put up, but watching these games, he hasn't been as impressive to me as everyone is saying he is, but it is amazing that the Cavs even won 2 games with that junk roster because of LBJ's presence.

thoughts?

xnick5757
06-17-2015, 01:05 AM
Normally, I don't like players that put up big numbers on bad efficiency. This series was different to me. Lebron's teammates simply could not function without him dominating the ball.

It wasn't optimal, but it was better than the alternative.

Tony_Starks
06-17-2015, 01:12 AM
Everybody said it was horrible when Westbrook did it so......

IBleedPurple
06-17-2015, 01:13 AM
Normally, I don't like players that put up big numbers on bad efficiency. This series was different to me. Lebron's teammates simply could not function without him dominating the ball.

It wasn't optimal, but it was better than the alternative.This. In this case it equals a team of mostly poo.

JasonJohnHorn
06-17-2015, 01:15 AM
Well... looking at the series, I think you have to concede that James, regardless of his low shooting, was doing an amazing job creating shots and doing everything he could.

Look at it this way. You have All-Defensive player Draymond Green, and a former All-Defensive play in Iggy, who's great, and solid defenders in Curry and Klay, not to mention Bogut. And they are all keeping an eye on one player, because none of the guys they are guard are worth giving a big commitment to.

Also, the last quarter, with 3 minutes less, the Cavs had to rush and throw up low percentage shots, as they've had to do in other games, and because James is the only one who can create them, he's taking them, and they are impacting his FG%.

James had a brilliant performance. No doubt. Iggy and Green were great, and really, if it had been Harrison Barnes guarding James, this series would have went the other way. But the low percentage wasn't a reflection of a poor performance from James. It's all about context.

bucketss
06-17-2015, 01:17 AM
it makes his overall numbers less impressive, he was missing a lot of easy shots this series.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-17-2015, 01:17 AM
Everybody said it was horrible when Westbrook did it so......

Westbrook got more MVP votes than he ever got BECAUSE he played the way he did.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-17-2015, 01:19 AM
Obviously not ideal to be inefficient but what exactly was everyone expecting?

Even when he wasn't shooting well (which would have been obvious considering he was shooting bad already in the playoffs before and he just lost his 2 main options and had Iggy/Green guarding him), he still contributed through rebounds and assist opportunities (Cavs probably missed like 15 open shots per game from a Lebron pass). He WAS the Cavs offense. His defense was clearly lacking but the workload offensively was too much to bear.

Kevj77
06-17-2015, 01:20 AM
He did what he had to for the Cavs to be competitive.

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 01:23 AM
Everybody said it was horrible when Westbrook did it so......

huh? I never saw anyone ripping Westbrook. He got even more praise than LBJ was getting for these finals.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-17-2015, 01:24 AM
huh? I never saw anyone ripping Westbrook. He got even more praise than LBJ was getting for these finals.

Not to mention even more MVP votes.

Sofnr
06-17-2015, 01:25 AM
I think this is a case where he didn't have much of a choice. The Cavs were depleted and that was likely their only chance to beat the Warriors. Overall i was impressed with him. An admirable effort against overwhelming odds. But the fact that some want to call this the "Best finals performance ever" is crazy. It's not even close to that.

Tony_Starks
06-17-2015, 01:29 AM
Everybody said it was horrible when Westbrook did it so......

huh? I never saw anyone ripping Westbrook. He got even more praise than LBJ was getting for these finals.


Where were you when he was doing this? PSD was full if people crawling out from every rock there was saying how bad it was, how selfish he was, how "anybody" could do it with that high of a usage.....blah blah blah.

Some were even arguing with everyone in sight that triple doubles are now "overrated." Smh

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 01:31 AM
Where were you when he was doing this? PSD was full if people crawling out from every rock there was saying how bad it was, how selfish he was, how "anybody" could do it with that high of a usage.....blah blah blah.

Some were even arguing with everyone in sight that triple doubles are now "overrated." Smh
I do think triple doubles are overrated but the way LBJ and Westbrook were doing it was impressive. I barely saw anybody ripping Westbrook, but maybe that's just me...

I didn't have Westbrook in my top 5 for MVP personally.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-17-2015, 01:35 AM
Where were you when he was doing this? PSD was full if people crawling out from every rock there was saying how bad it was, how selfish he was, how "anybody" could do it with that high of a usage.....blah blah blah.

Some were even arguing with everyone in sight that triple doubles are now "overrated." Smh

He got more MVP votes than he ever would have gotten playing the way he played. People who bashed him were clearly wrong.

mngopher35
06-17-2015, 01:36 AM
Context is huge in situations like this, it depends on your teammates. With the lack of creators on offense Lebron did what he needed to do, just look at how they played offensively with him sitting (literally one of the worst offensive casts in finals history). Whenever he passed the ball (and didn't get it right back) people were saying "they need to go through james" and "he has to be more aggressive". Once it is all said and done we hear "well look at how many shots he took". A little bit of revisionist history once we see the team result of a loss.

Westbrook had a similar issue when Durant went down and he became the sole creator and it lead to him getting a huge boost in credit (and MVP votes). I do remember a few people getting on him about the efficiency too though just like James. The weird thing is that there are many on here who either gave props or hated on one and then did the opposite for the other.

Anyways overall Lebron had an impressive series and I think many believe the cavs over achieved. It's not the greatest finals ever or anything (which his counting stats are probably close to saying) but it was more impressive than the play of many past players who have won imo. His offensive rating was better than the cavs as a team (and probably right there with curry) so I think his efficiency is being blown a bit out of proportion due to poor shooting since it was actually pretty solid in comparison to others.

KnicksorBust
06-17-2015, 01:42 AM
I think the biggest mistake people are making is treating the last 3 games the same as the first 3 games. He stunk in game 4 and was not good tonight.

In games 2 and 3 he was incredible at getting to the rim and controlling the tempo of the game. It seemed like he owned the pace and would back down his defender all the time to read the passing lanes. I remember him getting open looks for Delly and Mozgov diving to the rim. Or TT eating up the offensive glass. There was significantly less of that the last 3 games.

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 01:44 AM
I think the biggest mistake people are making is treating the last 3 games the same as the first 3 games. He stunk in game 4 and was not good tonight.

In games 2 and 3 he was incredible at getting to the rim and controlling the tempo of the game. It seemed like he owned the pace and would back down his defender all the time to read the passing lanes. I remember him getting open looks for Delly and Mozgov diving to the rim. Or TT eating up the offensive glass. There was significantly less of that the last 3 games.

I think he was awesome in game 5 for like the first 30 mins FWIW. but agree that he sucked in 4 and 6.

More-Than-Most
06-17-2015, 01:51 AM
Everybody said it was horrible when Westbrook did it so......

Westbrooke didnt do it against that team night in and night out in the finals with as bad of a roster as James has and he never put up these type of numbers that James did without rest while playing all 5 positions.

Tony_Starks
06-17-2015, 01:52 AM
Where were you when he was doing this? PSD was full if people crawling out from every rock there was saying how bad it was, how selfish he was, how "anybody" could do it with that high of a usage.....blah blah blah.

Some were even arguing with everyone in sight that triple doubles are now "overrated." Smh

He got more MVP votes than he ever would have gotten playing the way he played. People who bashed him were clearly wrong.

Oh most definitely. I'm just saying its funny how the same ones that bashed Russ for doing it are praising James for doing the exact same thing....

Chronz
06-17-2015, 01:54 AM
As always it depends on context. Teammates+competition

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 01:56 AM
As always it depends on context. Teammates+competition

so were you impressed by LBJ's finals then?

Raps08-09 Champ
06-17-2015, 02:04 AM
Lebron was shooting 43% from the field before the finals I believe. His drop in FG% isn't that much from how well he shot before the finals, and that's with Iggy/Green guarding him.

Chronz
06-17-2015, 02:04 AM
so were you impressed by LBJ's finals then?

Of course. His efficiency was higher than people think considering his ortg and how he set his rebounders up. I think prime bron would have done mo tho

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 02:08 AM
Of course. His efficiency was higher than people think considering his ortg and how he set his rebounders up. I think prime bron would have done mo tho

fair enough. I'm basically with you on this. I was just shocked with the amount of inside shots he missed. Prime Bron would've finished way more in the paint and could've blown by Iggy more often.

Scoots
06-17-2015, 02:09 AM
The "Hey LeBron" offense makes for big numbers but also made for a broken down LeBron. Hell of a series.

ghettosean
06-17-2015, 03:18 AM
Everybody said it was horrible when Westbrook did it so......

Westbrooke didnt do it against that team night in and night out in the finals with as bad of a roster as James has and he never put up these type of numbers that James did without rest while playing all 5 positions.

Nope he did it without last years MVP and a player that is supposedly better than him in KD lets not forget he was also missing Serge as a honorable mention for a portion of his great regular season run.

Hawkeye15
06-17-2015, 09:58 AM
If that player has better options, it annoys me. The chucker mentality is annoying when that player has options that would better serve the team. In LeBron's case, he has always been uber efficient. But in these playoffs, Love went down early, Irving dealt with leg issues and finally went down, and when the ball didn't go to him for more than 2 possessions, all you could think was, "omg get the ball to LeBron, none of you can do ****". He was asked to do something no player in history was asked to do at the highest stage. There isn't a player in history that could have held high efficiency at that age with that usage and what he was being asked to do, not even Jordan.

Now, if he had Love/Irving, and was still putting up that efficiency level, then I would criticize the hell out of him.

Hawkeye15
06-17-2015, 09:59 AM
Lebron was shooting 43% from the field before the finals I believe. His drop in FG% isn't that much from how well he shot before the finals, and that's with Iggy/Green guarding him.

as much as people crap on the east, and rightly so, he did face a couple of the best wing defenders prior to getting to the finals, and being guarded by Iggy.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-17-2015, 10:05 AM
Lebron had a really great finals rebounding and assisting but he shot 39% from the field. What also hurt but is rarely mentioned is he only shot 68% from the free throw line in the finals.

I think Lebron only shot 39% vs the Bulls as well so this was not isolated to only this series.

ghettosean
06-17-2015, 10:09 AM
Lebron had a really great finals rebounding and assisting but he shot 39% from the field. What also hurt but is rarely mentioned is he only shot 68% from the free throw line in the finals.

I think Lebron only shot 39% vs the Bulls as well so this was not isolated to only this series.

Now is your chance to criticize Hawk :D

xnick5757
06-17-2015, 11:22 AM
I think the biggest mistake people are making is treating the last 3 games the same as the first 3 games. He stunk in game 4 and was not good tonight.

In games 2 and 3 he was incredible at getting to the rim and controlling the tempo of the game. It seemed like he owned the pace and would back down his defender all the time to read the passing lanes. I remember him getting open looks for Delly and Mozgov diving to the rim. Or TT eating up the offensive glass. There was significantly less of that the last 3 games.

Warriors went to a super small lineup so the Cavs had to adjust



and just overall, there's this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHrcmdoVEAE8uyR.png:large

Hangin n Wangin
06-17-2015, 11:39 AM
I think people need to get off this guys nut sack for one freaking second. It's ridiculous. The Warriors win the title and all ESPN talks about is Lebron. The guy was a chucker and an inefficient one at that this entire series. Kobe would be getting ripped a new one. So would anyone else. What Kobe did against the suns with an even worse team was better than anything Lebron did this series.

8kobe24
06-17-2015, 11:43 AM
I call it pointless stat padding.

5ass
06-17-2015, 12:12 PM
Warriors went to a super small lineup so the Cavs had to adjust



and just overall, there's this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHrcmdoVEAE8uyR.png:large
Thats not surprising.

zn23
06-17-2015, 12:13 PM
LeBron's finals performance wasn't as spectacular as people made it out to be. It was a courageous effort but his PER was 27.9, which is very good but far from legendary. For perspective DWade's PER in 2006 Finals was 33.8, far superior to LeBron.

Jamiecballer
06-17-2015, 12:33 PM
Normally, I don't like players that put up big numbers on bad efficiency. This series was different to me. Lebron's teammates simply could not function without him dominating the ball.

It wasn't optimal, but it was better than the alternative.

absolutely spot the **** on.

if he played like that during the regular season, and with his talented teammates it would be different. this was clearly the shift in style due to circumstances only.

Jamiecballer
06-17-2015, 12:42 PM
Oh most definitely. I'm just saying its funny how the same ones that bashed Russ for doing it are praising James for doing the exact same thing....

totally different situation. James get the benefit of the doubt because he's always scored at an extremely efficient rate whereas westbrook has always shown poor judgement and poor efficiency. westbrook just IS that guy. james is not.

btw, did you see the god awful shooting percentages of his back-court and small forward teammates? he played very unselfishly all series; he averaged 10.6 assists per game, if his teammates hadn't thrown up brick after brick after being spoonfed open looks he would have averaged 14+

Delladova:
JR Smith:
Iman Shumpert:

50 for 173!!!! ~ 28.9%

29 for 102 from 3pt!!!!! ~ 28.4%

KnicksorBust
06-17-2015, 12:52 PM
Warriors went to a super small lineup so the Cavs had to adjust



and just overall, there's this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHrcmdoVEAE8uyR.png:large

My entire point was how LeBron was less aggressive in the 3 games that lost them the series. Them changing the lineup means ... ? He can't post up against a SMALLER lineup? He can't drive on a smaller lineup? Neither of those make sense.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-17-2015, 01:21 PM
He had to have a usage % that high to keep his team in the game unfortunately. I don't blame him at all for his efforts and total ball control.

However, I think most of the public is very skewed by the numbers he put up and doesn't fully comprehend the insane usage and poor efficiency he actually had. I don't think his series was nearly as great as everybody makes it out to be.

Regular Season he was 25/7.5/6 on 48/35/71 shooting in basically exactly 36 minutes per game (at 18.5 shots per game).

His finals Per36 is 28/10.5/7 on 39/31/68 (Per36 shots per game is 26).

So per minute, he wasn't really much better over his regular season averages outside of his jump in rebounds. He did score more points per36, but also took over 7 more shots to get those 3 points.

So with his near 46 Minutes per game, everybody is talking about these heroic efforts, when he actually per minute was just doing what he always does, except shooting much poorer in every facet while playing more minutes.

Just my 2 cents.

Scoots
06-17-2015, 01:24 PM
The other Cavs had better shooting during the season because they were getting wide open looks because of the thread of James/Irving/Love ... with the Warriors keeping good defenders on the shooters they hit a much lower percentage. That's not on Shump/Smith/Delly, it was the Warriors defensive decision and execution. The biggest problem the Cavs had was Iguodala was able to make LeBron less efficient, and the small lineup had the double coming at the first move at the paint.

LeBron played an incredible series and the Cavs D was excellent all series but the Cavs scheme and team were not as good as the Warriors.

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2015, 01:55 PM
I call it pointless stat padding.
Was it stat padding when Jordan dropped 60 with crap teammates vs Boston? Was it stat padding when melo scored 60? Stat padding when Kobe scored 81 with crap teammates vs the raptors?

Chronz
06-17-2015, 02:17 PM
LeBron's finals performance wasn't as spectacular as people made it out to be. It was a courageous effort but his PER was 27.9, which is very good but far from legendary. For perspective DWade's PER in 2006 Finals was 33.8, far superior to LeBron.

Thats interesting. Agreed on the overratedness of his individual production but his team influence was huge. Got a source on that stat tho?

Chronz
06-17-2015, 02:20 PM
Was it stat padding when Jordan dropped 60 with crap teammates vs Boston? Was it stat padding when melo scored 60? Stat padding when Kobe scored 81 with crap teammates vs the raptors?

Ask him how he feels about Kobe leading the league in garbage time scoring the year he averaged 35PPG. Or if it was padding watching Kobe chuck away this year. How do you pad your stats by missing shots tho? Particularly if part of the goal is to open up rebounds for your teammates with all eyes on you?

Jamiecballer
06-17-2015, 03:29 PM
The other Cavs had better shooting during the season because they were getting wide open looks because of the thread of James/Irving/Love ... with the Warriors keeping good defenders on the shooters they hit a much lower percentage. That's not on Shump/Smith/Delly, it was the Warriors defensive decision and execution. The biggest problem the Cavs had was Iguodala was able to make LeBron less efficient, and the small lineup had the double coming at the first move at the paint.

LeBron played an incredible series and the Cavs D was excellent all series but the Cavs scheme and team were not as good as the Warriors.
they were wide open. many many many times wide open looks.