PDA

View Full Version : Who should win MVP if Golden State wins?



Ty Fast
06-15-2015, 02:44 AM
Who should be MVP? Steph? Iggy? Bron?
I think the guy who deserves it most is JJ Barea haha. In all seriousness I say Steph.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 03:13 AM
Yes lets give it to a guy that has been good in one game this series and pass up the guy averaging 39/13/9 all because he doesnt have the superior team.


It goes to BRON





Big Gap


Iggy



Big Gap

A few others


Gap

Curry

AP=MVP
06-15-2015, 03:21 AM
LeBron or Iggy

jason
06-15-2015, 03:31 AM
Yes lets give it to a guy that has been good in one game this series and pass up the guy averaging 39/13/9 all because he doesnt have the superior team.


It goes to BRON





Big Gap


Iggy



Big Gap

A few others


Gap

Curry

1 game? and lol at the gaps and "putting a few others"

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 03:49 AM
1 game? and lol at the gaps and "putting a few others"

Yes 1 game and even in this 1 great game curry had moronic turnovers... In the other games he was trash on both sides of the ball... He finally had a great game but in no way/shape or form deserves the MVP for being great 1 time out of 5 games.

And this is why Judging guys by championships is dumb... James has played better and curry will get a ring.... Iggy has been far above Curry this series as well. Curry is the MVP of the regular season and a top 6 player in the league behind James/Durant/CP3/Davis but in no way shape or form deserves the finals mvp for being shut down in most games by a replacement level player in Deli.

Without James the cavs get blown out in every game and swept... without curry the series is 3-2 maybe cavs but could easily be 3-2 warriors still.

Greedy22
06-15-2015, 04:00 AM
Iggy more deserving than Curry who is averaging 26 ppg and 6 apg lol.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 04:04 AM
You're saying IF golden state wins, right? But u said lebron?? lol, wtf??

I think iggy and curry are prob the two most likely. I wanna say iggy cuz of his 2 way play

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:09 AM
Iggy more deserving than Curry who is averaging 26 ppg and 6 apg lol.

Rebounds/not as many turnovers or stupid plays and covering the best player on the planet game in and game out.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:10 AM
You're saying IF golden state wins, right? But u said lebron?? lol, wtf??

I think iggy and curry are prob the two most likely. I wanna say iggy cuz of his 2 way play

Yes just because the cavs will lose doesn't mean he isn't the most valuable in this series. He is by far more valuable than anyone else... In fact he might be 3 times more valuable than everyone else.

Greedy22
06-15-2015, 04:12 AM
Rebounds/not as many turnovers or stupid plays and covering the best player on the planet game in and game out.
Who is averaging a triple double.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 04:15 AM
Yes just because the cavs will lose doesn't mean he isn't the most valuable in this series. He is by far more valuable than anyone else... In fact he might be 3 times more valuable than everyone else.

No one cares, been damn near 50 yrs since an mvp has been from losing team. IF gs wins, then mvp better be a freakin gs player, what the hell crap would that be giving that **** to the losing team, lol. I'd be like whaa..

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:19 AM
No one cares, been damn near 50 yrs since an mvp has been from losing team. IF gs wins, then mvp better be a freakin gs player, what the hell crap would that be giving that **** to the losing team, lol. I'd be like whaa..

He is having the best performance in a finals ever.

kingsdelez24
06-15-2015, 04:31 AM
No one cares, been damn near 50 yrs since an mvp has been from losing team. IF gs wins, then mvp better be a freakin gs player, what the hell crap would that be giving that **** to the losing team, lol. I'd be like whaa..

He is having the best performance in a finals ever.

Lol, no he's not

Phantom Dreamer
06-15-2015, 04:35 AM
No one cares, been damn near 50 yrs since an mvp has been from losing team. IF gs wins, then mvp better be a freakin gs player, what the hell crap would that be giving that **** to the losing team, lol. I'd be like whaa..

He is having the best performance in a finals ever.Is this the first year you watched basketball?

nastynice
06-15-2015, 04:45 AM
He is having the best performance in a finals ever.

lol what?? He's having a great performance, no doubt, but that statement is a bit much. He may not even be having HIS best finals

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:52 AM
Um no he is historically having the best finals ever... His usage is now better than Jordans as well... He is avg 38/13/9 in these finals. He has been the teams best perimeter defender and has played every position on the court... Who has had a better finals?

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:54 AM
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/13054535/magic-johnson-says-lebron-having-greatest-finals-ever-curry-green-need-keep-quiet

Magic Johnson agrees and that was before his 40/14/11 on 15-34 shooting.... He is literally having the best finals performance ever.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 04:56 AM
Um no he is historically having the best finals ever... His usage is now better than Jordans as well... He is avg 38/13/9 in these finals. He has been the teams best perimeter defender and has played every position on the court... Who has had a better finals?

Umm, I don't know, dude was stupid efficient just two years ago. If you wanna say he's carrying possibly biggest load in a finals ever, sure. But when u say "best", and consider his inefficiency, it makes it debatable. Carrying a bigger load doesn't necessary make it a better performance, it's one factor of many factors.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 04:58 AM
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/13054535/magic-johnson-says-lebron-having-greatest-finals-ever-curry-green-need-keep-quiet

Magic Johnson agrees and that was before his 40/14/11 on 15-34 shooting.... He is literally having the best finals performance ever.

lol, ur pretty passionate of this whole "best finals ever" thing huh. All good brotha, tho I disagree, more power to you. He's been playing ****in amazing, at least we can all agree about that

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 05:01 AM
Umm, I don't know, dude was stupid efficient just two years ago. If you wanna say he's carrying possibly biggest load in a finals ever, sure. But when u say "best", and consider his inefficiency, it makes it debatable. Carrying a bigger load doesn't necessary make it a better performance, it's one factor of many factors.

No again he is statistically having the greatest finals ever even if you dont add in the lack of help and the team he is playing... He has 2 40 point triple doubles and has scored the most points and lead both teams in points/rebounds/assists.... He has missed shot but he has been beyond efficient with his overall game... Go read up on it... He is having the best finals performance ever

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lebron-s-hands-down-finals-mvp-performance-isn-t-enough-%E2%80%93-but-he-isn-t-conceding----i-m-the-best-player-in-the-world--053821217.html

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-nba-finals-mvp-jerry-west-cleveland-cavaliers-golden-state-warriors-061515

I am passionate because I have never seen anyone play this well with a team this bad

nastynice
06-15-2015, 05:55 AM
No again he is statistically having the greatest finals ever even if you dont add in the lack of help and the team he is playing... He has 2 40 point triple doubles and has scored the most points and lead both teams in points/rebounds/assists.... He has missed shot but he has been beyond efficient with his overall game... Go read up on it... He is having the best finals performance ever

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lebron-s-hands-down-finals-mvp-performance-isn-t-enough-%E2%80%93-but-he-isn-t-conceding----i-m-the-best-player-in-the-world--053821217.html

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-nba-finals-mvp-jerry-west-cleveland-cavaliers-golden-state-warriors-061515

I am passionate because I have never seen anyone play this well with a team this bad

Meh, I guess since we seen it already when going thru Houston. One guy gets the ball run thru him almost every possession and puts up monster numbers. Not getting people in rhythm, not making teammates better. If what lebron is doing the best finals ever, then harden must be pretty close to best WCF ever. Efficiency wise too, he's nowhere near where he's been past few years.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 06:14 AM
^^also to add, he was complete beast when left one on one. Flashing double teams last couple games, he's def come back down to earth. Well, earth for him, only he can put up triple doubles and get ragged on, lol, ridiculous

DanG
06-15-2015, 07:04 AM
Past 25 years:

91' Jordan
92' Jordan
93' Jordan
95' Olajuwon
00' Shaq
01' Shaq
02' Shaq
06' Wade
12' LeBron

Have all had a better finals performance.

LeBron has been great vs GSW, but he can play alot better. This team is perfect for him to drive to the paint every time. There are several players that could average similar numbers on 40% shooting and steal 1-2 games. I mean Shaq would absolutely destroy Golden State. Would probably put up 40/20 or smth like that. And IMO GSW has only played up to their standards in game 4 and this should probably have been a sweep.

If the cavs win, LeBrons performance is definitely up there. I wouldn't say the best, but top 5.

QueensG_718
06-15-2015, 07:13 AM
Curry

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 08:26 AM
James/Iguodala/Curry in that order AON

Bulls_fan90
06-15-2015, 08:26 AM
Jr Smith

JWO35
06-15-2015, 08:45 AM
Curry followed by Iggy

basch152
06-15-2015, 09:05 AM
98 missed shots in 5 games.

Not MVP. Not even close.

pebloemer
06-15-2015, 09:18 AM
James/Iguodala/Curry in that order AON

I agree with this.

When we the last time a player from the losing team got the Finals MVP though? Has it ever happened?

If James can't get it due to that hurdle, I'd love to see Iguodala win the award.

Vinylman
06-15-2015, 09:22 AM
If it goes 7 I can definitely see the case for Lebron


If it ends in 6 I doubt he gets it and I would have to assume Curry gets it.

FYL_McVeezy
06-15-2015, 09:57 AM
Not a fan at all of giving the MVP to a player on a losing team so I would give it to Curry.....Iggy on the outside looking in...

BKLYNpigeon
06-15-2015, 10:05 AM
I think Iggy is having a great series, but Lebron still averaging close to a Triple Double on him.

Curry only had 2 good games, but everything runs through him. We have 3 wins because of Curry.

likemystylez
06-15-2015, 10:12 AM
He is having the best performance in a finals ever.

most players would rather win and sacrifice their own stats

RLundi
06-15-2015, 10:13 AM
Um no he is historically having the best finals ever... His usage is now better than Jordans as well... He is avg 38/13/9 in these finals. He has been the teams best perimeter defender and has played every position on the court... Who has had a better finals?

What does usage have to do with a player having a great Finals performance? That just means he has the ball in his hands a massive amount of time. It speaks to how bad his team is, not how great of a performance he's having.

I agree, LBJ has been amazing, but best of all time? No, and I don't think it's that close. I understand the style of play and defense have made this a different Finals than we're used to, but tbh Bron has been playing ugly, inefficient basketball.

RLundi
06-15-2015, 10:15 AM
most players would rather win and sacrifice their own stats

If you think this is about Bron refusing to sacrifice stats, you haven't been watching the series.

flea
06-15-2015, 10:22 AM
No again he is statistically having the greatest finals ever even if you dont add in the lack of help and the team he is playing... He has 2 40 point triple doubles and has scored the most points and lead both teams in points/rebounds/assists.... He has missed shot but he has been beyond efficient with his overall game... Go read up on it... He is having the best finals performance ever

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/lebron-s-hands-down-finals-mvp-performance-isn-t-enough-%E2%80%93-but-he-isn-t-conceding----i-m-the-best-player-in-the-world--053821217.html

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-nba-finals-mvp-jerry-west-cleveland-cavaliers-golden-state-warriors-061515

I am passionate because I have never seen anyone play this well with a team this bad

He's playing well but he's getting a lot of help by having the 2 best rebounders in the series on his team, as well as perimeter defenders that have pretty much outplayed their checks throughout the series. He's carrying a big scoring load but it's not close to the best Finals I've seen.

Funny how people pretend Duncan's 03 title doesn't exist. His 2nd best player was about as good as Iman Shumpert, he put up 24/17/5 with 5 blocks for the series against one of the best defensive teams that year, had a (uncredited) quadruple double in the Finals, and he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks for the entire playoffs. Oh and he actually won it all. Then there was Hakeem doing something similar in 94, Jordan in 91 with a raw Pippen, Dirk in 06 before Stern stole the series from him, etc.

Fine series but he's lucky he doesn't have to be anything more than the 5th or 6th best defender in his team. Those big men did not have that luxury - it was be the best player on both sides of the court or lose.

Cal827
06-15-2015, 10:23 AM
most players would rather win and sacrifice their own stats

Yeah, I'm sure he would if he could, but unfortunately the tandem of Delladova and Smith aren't exactly lighting it up :laugh2:

SLY WILLIAMS
06-15-2015, 10:25 AM
It really depends on what happens from here. It seems some talking heads want to give it to Lebron but he is shooting 39% for the series. If he raised his shooting percentage or he won the series then that would make much more sense.

Curry on the other hand had a horrible game 2 but has been very good in the other 4 games. In the last 3 games Currys shooting has been impressive. He has shot 53.8%, 57.1% and 53.8% from 3 point range the last 3 games. That is hard to overlook if GS wins the series and Curry plays well in the next 1-2 games.

king4day
06-15-2015, 10:28 AM
If Curry has a great game 6 then he should get it, if not, then probably Iggy.

I'm not big on giving the MVP to a player on the losing team. They might have played MVP caliber but it wasn't good enough to win it all.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-15-2015, 10:38 AM
Um no he is historically having the best finals ever... His usage is now better than Jordans as well... He is avg 38/13/9 in these finals. He has been the teams best perimeter defender and has played every position on the court... Who has had a better finals?

Jordan had a better finals pretty much every year. Compiling a lot of big numbers because the ball is in your hand all the time does not determine who played best. Playing winning basketball against great teams determines who played best. GS is basically playing a 6-7 and under team in the finals. The paint is wide open with no shotblocking to be feared and still Lebron is shooting under 40%.

Jordan vs the Lakers: 31ppg-7rpg-11apg on 56 FG%-50 3P%
Jordan vs the Blazers: 36ppg-5rpg-7apg on 53 FG%-43 3P%
Jordan vs the Suns: 41ppg-9rpg-6apg on 51 FG%-40 3P%

valade16
06-15-2015, 10:47 AM
He's playing well but he's getting a lot of help by having the 2 best rebounders in the series on his team, as well as perimeter defenders that have pretty much outplayed their checks throughout the series. He's carrying a big scoring load but it's not close to the best Finals I've seen.

Funny how people pretend Duncan's 03 title doesn't exist. His 2nd best player was about as good as Iman Shumpert, he put up 24/17/5 with 5 blocks for the series against one of the best defensive teams that year, had a (uncredited) quadruple double in the Finals, and he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks for the entire playoffs. Oh and he actually won it all. Then there was Hakeem doing something similar in 94, Jordan in 91 with a raw Pippen, Dirk in 06 before Stern stole the series from him, etc.

Fine series but he's lucky he doesn't have to be anything more than the 5th or 6th best defender in his team. Those big men did not have that luxury - it was be the best player on both sides of the court or lose.

It is impossible to comment on the current finals with the phrase "he's getting a lot of help" and actually be talking about LeBron.

I agree this isn't the greatest finals performance ever, though it's damn good, but your hate for LeBron is so palpable it taints any point you try to make really.

bklynny67
06-15-2015, 10:48 AM
Some of you are a joke. Jordan had multiple better finals than James is having...

If GS wins, Curry is the MVP. Period. He put this conversation to rest last night. James is scoring a lot of pts but still is incredibly inefficient. Scoring 40 pts on 40 shots is not impressive.

Yes, he had little help, but still being that inefficient will not make his team win this series, let alone MVP on a losing finals team. With the amount of shots he's chucking, he should be scoring 60/gm

ewing
06-15-2015, 10:49 AM
mozgov

kingkenny01
06-15-2015, 10:51 AM
Curry is going to get it but iggy deserves it

kdspurman
06-15-2015, 10:52 AM
It is impossible to comment on the current finals with the phrase "he's getting a lot of help" and actually be talking about LeBron.

I agree this isn't the greatest finals performance ever, though it's damn good, but your hate for LeBron is so palpable it taints any point you try to make really.

Idk if it's impossible, Tristan Thompson is giving a lot of help on the boards and creating 2nd chance opportunities, Delly/Shump have played mostly fine defense throughout the series. Now he isn't getting much help consistently on the offensive side, so in that regard I agree with you. But defensively/rebouding, I think guys have contributed a great deal this series.

Problem is, they just can't get enough consistent scoring

flea
06-15-2015, 10:55 AM
It is impossible to comment on the current finals with the phrase "he's getting a lot of help" and actually be talking about LeBron.

I agree this isn't the greatest finals performance ever, though it's damn good, but your hate for LeBron is so palpable it taints any point you try to make really.

I don't hate Lebron, that's just what the LeBoners around here think. They'd probably think I hated MJ too if I pointed out that he wasn't the best defender or rebounder on his teams. It's almost like people forget that scoring isn't 100% of the game in basketball.

Is Lebron responsible for keeping Curry/Thompson contained for much of the series? Absolutely not. Is Lebron responsible for killing the offensive glass? No. Is Lebron responsible for having the best rim protector in the series on his team? Not unless you think he is the GM of his team, which some of his fanboys actually do think.

Also, I laugh at the fanboys taking Mark Jackson's talking point about him playing center in that smallball lineup. You guys do know he's guarded a center a decent amount this playoffs already, right? He's put on the worst offensive threat defensively for much of the games in these playoffs and spent a decent amount of time on Noah. That small lineup proved completely untenable on the glass and especially on pick and roll coverage and they fairly quickly abandoned it - but it was a good idea to open up the paint a little more here and there.

ewing
06-15-2015, 10:56 AM
Idk if it's impossible, Tristan Thompson is giving a lot of help on the boards and creating 2nd chance opportunities, Delly/Shump have played mostly fine defense throughout the series. Now he isn't getting much help consistently on the offensive side, so in that regard I agree with you. But defensively/rebouding, I think guys have contributed a great deal this series.

Problem is, they just can't get enough consistent scoring

you are only allowed to give LeBron created for doing things other then scoring. It makes up for his awful shooting %

valade16
06-15-2015, 10:57 AM
Idk if it's impossible, Tristan Thompson is giving a lot of help on the boards and creating 2nd chance opportunities, Delly/Shump have played mostly fine defense throughout the series. Now he isn't getting much help consistently on the offensive side, so in that regard I agree with you. But defensively/rebouding, I think guys have contributed a great deal this series.

Problem is, they just can't get enough consistent scoring

This problem so completely overshadows any defensive prowess Shump or Dell are providing. Shump is averaging 6.2 PPG on 27% FG. That is abysmal. The guy he is primarily checking, Klay Thompson, is averaging 18.0 PPG. He is losing that matchup, badly.

Delly is averaging 8.8 PPG on 30% FG shooting. Curry is averaging 26 PPG. He is losing that matchup, badly.

He is getting help on the boards from Mozgov and TT, but they can't be on the floor together or GS' small ball lineup crushes them on the other side.

James is getting virtually 0 offense from anyone outside Mozgov. If the Cavs without LeBron could hold the Warriors to 60 points for the entire game it wouldn't matter much because they'd only score 55 points and lose. They are that bad offensively.

bklynny67
06-15-2015, 10:57 AM
And I'm pretty sure More than Most is Lebrons dad/mother...

That's the only explanation why someone would be saying such asinine things about James having the best finals series in history. Lol 39% shooting.

Good stuff. Keep the laughs coming.

jason
06-15-2015, 11:05 AM
Yes 1 game and even in this 1 great game curry had moronic turnovers... In the other games he was trash on both sides of the ball... He finally had a great game but in no way/shape or form deserves the MVP for being great 1 time out of 5 games.

And this is why Judging guys by championships is dumb... James has played better and curry will get a ring.... Iggy has been far above Curry this series as well. Curry is the MVP of the regular season and a top 6 player in the league behind James/Durant/CP3/Davis but in no way shape or form deserves the finals mvp for being shut down in most games by a replacement level player in Deli.

Without James the cavs get blown out in every game and swept... without curry the series is 3-2 maybe cavs but could easily be 3-2 warriors still.

Try 3 good games in winning efforts and 1 great fame Lebron is pulling a Westbrook in the finals. If he was more efficient he would probably have more wins but go ahead and forget how many missed shots he has.

RLundi
06-15-2015, 11:09 AM
And I'm pretty sure More than Most is Lebrons dad/mother...

That's the only explanation why someone would be saying such asinine things about James having the best finals series in history. Lol 39% shooting.

Good stuff. Keep the laughs coming.

Rofl

valade16
06-15-2015, 11:37 AM
I don't hate Lebron, that's just what the LeBoners around here think. They'd probably think I hated MJ too if I pointed out that he wasn't the best defender or rebounder on his teams. It's almost like people forget that scoring isn't 100% of the game in basketball.

Is Lebron responsible for keeping Curry/Thompson contained for much of the series? Absolutely not. Is Lebron responsible for killing the offensive glass? No. Is Lebron responsible for having the best rim protector in the series on his team? Not unless you think he is the GM of his team, which some of his fanboys actually do think.

Also, I laugh at the fanboys taking Mark Jackson's talking point about him playing center in that smallball lineup. You guys do know he's guarded a center a decent amount this playoffs already, right? He's put on the worst offensive threat defensively for much of the games in these playoffs and spent a decent amount of time on Noah. That small lineup proved completely untenable on the glass and especially on pick and roll coverage and they fairly quickly abandoned it - but it was a good idea to open up the paint a little more here and there.

1st Bolded: That's not really a knock on MJ considering he played with perhaps the greatest rebounding non-Center ever and 2 of the top 10 wing defenders of all-time, though considering your opinion on MJ from the other thread, I think it is a legitimate question to ask if you hate MJ...

2nd Bolded: No, he's not responsible for any of those, but are you going to discount that he's responsible for damn near all their scoring? Last night he was responsible for virtually every single 4th quarter bucket for the Cavs. When LeBron leaves the floor the Cavs get worked. It's painfully obvious without LeBron that offense would be struggling to score 60.

LeBron has had guys who get lots of rebounds and have held Curry and Klay Thompson to only a combined 44 points a game. Man, it's a wonder the Cavs didn't go 82-0 with that kind of help...

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-15-2015, 12:06 PM
Yes lets give it to a guy that has been good in one game this series and pass up the guy averaging 39/13/9 all because he doesnt have the superior team.


It goes to BRON





Big Gap


Iggy



Big Gap

A few others


Gap

Curry


Bron has been chucking the series away.

Curry will get it if he closes out Cleveland strong.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-15-2015, 12:14 PM
No one cares, been damn near 50 yrs since an mvp has been from losing team. IF gs wins, then mvp better be a freakin gs player, what the hell crap would that be giving that **** to the losing team, lol. I'd be like whaa..

He is having the best performance in a finals ever.

:laugh2:

Why do you and a few other keep repeating this garbage. Lebron has been average, and has choked a few games away. He's also missed a couple game winners. He has to own the record for most shoots/misses in finals history by now.

GREATNESS ONE
06-15-2015, 12:16 PM
Oh Lebron, you shouldn't have forced Cleveland to trade Wiggins for Love.


Curry is getting the MVP

RLundi
06-15-2015, 12:22 PM
:laugh2:

Why do you and a few other keep repeating this garbage. Lebron has been average, and has choked a few games away. He's also missed a couple game winners. He has to own the record for most shoots/misses in finals history by now.

I'm sure he does. And your God, Lord and Savior is probably not far behind.

HoopsDrive
06-15-2015, 12:35 PM
LeBron deserves it, especially if the Cavs manage to force game 7 and Curry is checked like before game 5.

JordansBulls
06-15-2015, 12:41 PM
This goes to Steph Curry easily IMO. He is still averaging 26/5/6/2 on 45%. Lebron is at 37 ppg but shooting 40%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015_finals_CLE-GSW.html


If you were interested in who had the best numbers than Shaq should had gotten finals mvp in 2004 when he averaged 27 and 11 on 63% FG.

ewing
06-15-2015, 12:48 PM
Jordan had a better finals pretty much every year. Compiling a lot of big numbers because the ball is in your hand all the time does not determine who played best. Playing winning basketball against great teams determines who played best. GS is basically playing a 6-7 and under team in the finals. The paint is wide open with no shotblocking to be feared and still Lebron is shooting under 40%.

Jordan vs the Lakers: 31ppg-7rpg-11apg on 56 FG%-50 3P%
Jordan vs the Blazers: 36ppg-5rpg-7apg on 53 FG%-43 3P%
Jordan vs the Suns: 41ppg-9rpg-6apg on 51 FG%-40 3P%


Just took a look at that Suns series. Micheal also averaged over 46 mins a game

NYKnickFanatic
06-15-2015, 12:48 PM
Iggy for sure.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:04 PM
It really depends on what happens from here. It seems some talking heads want to give it to Lebron but he is shooting 39% for the series. If he raised his shooting percentage or he won the series then that would make much more sense.

Curry on the other hand had a horrible game 2 but has been very good in the other 4 games. In the last 3 games Currys shooting has been impressive. He has shot 53.8%, 57.1% and 53.8% from 3 point range the last 3 games. That is hard to overlook if GS wins the series and Curry plays well in the next 1-2 games.

FG% is irrelevant when compared to offensive efficiency. Bron for the series has been more efficient than Curry, there is no statistical barometer that would rate anyones line above Brons and its not even close. His load is unfathomable. Easily the worst cast around a star in a LONG time.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:08 PM
Jordan had a better finals pretty much every year. Compiling a lot of big numbers because the ball is in your hand all the time does not determine who played best. Playing winning basketball against great teams determines who played best. GS is basically playing a 6-7 and under team in the finals. The paint is wide open with no shotblocking to be feared and still Lebron is shooting under 40%.

Jordan vs the Lakers: 31ppg-7rpg-11apg on 56 FG%-50 3P%
Jordan vs the Blazers: 36ppg-5rpg-7apg on 53 FG%-43 3P%
Jordan vs the Suns: 41ppg-9rpg-6apg on 51 FG%-40 3P%

The Dubs defense is better than any I've seen played on MJ in those specific Finals. Paint is not wide open, not compared to the pre-zone era MJ played in, especially not against a defenseless Suns team, injured Lakers squad. Blazers were legit tho.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:14 PM
He's playing well but he's getting a lot of help by having the 2 best rebounders in the series on his team,
I dont see how thats alot of help when they aren't capable of doing anything once they grab that rebound and many of them are actually a result of Bron attracting so much attention that they get the easy rebounds. Its sad how inefficient those rebounders have been despite that rebounding advantage, and Mozgov is producing but is sometimes a detriment to the team dynamic when GS goes super small.


as well as perimeter defenders that have pretty much outplayed their checks throughout the series.
Outplaying a 900k check isn't impressive. Shumpert gives effort but its sad that an injured perimeter player whos losing his matchup badly is somehow worthy of respect. Iggy's defense on Bron has been more impressive than any Cavs defender IMO.


He's carrying a big scoring load but it's not close to the best Finals I've seen.
Bron himself has had better Finals. Duncan never won with his 2nd best player being on Shumps level, just stop bro. Ur outing urself.

ewing
06-15-2015, 01:25 PM
The Dubs defense is better than any I've seen played on MJ in those specific Finals. Paint is not wide open, not compared to the pre-zone era MJ played in, especially not against a defenseless Suns team, injured Lakers squad. Blazers were legit tho.

you sound like a total homer. Jordan completed a 3 peat against those Suns and played 46 mins a night. His roaster was much less talented then Phx's he was just other worldly.

Phx floored

KJ
Barkley
Thunder Dan
A drug free Richard Dumas
Big Mark West
Danny Ainge
Tim Chambers
etc

If you want applaud LeBron's effort this series that's cool and don't blame you but Micheal is the GOAT for a reason and he was a monster in those finals

JordansBulls
06-15-2015, 01:30 PM
The Dubs defense is better than any I've seen played on MJ in those specific Finals. Paint is not wide open, not compared to the pre-zone era MJ played in, especially not against a defenseless Suns team, injured Lakers squad. Blazers were legit tho.

No the Warriors defense is only good when Bogut is playing, he is what made them the #1 defense in the league. Without him they would be around the 9th or 10th best in the league. He has played around 18 mpg in this series and didn't even play yesterday at all.

also defensive rating is not a good indication. 1989 Cavs had a better defensive rating than the 1989 Pistons and it was clear that the Pistons were the better defensive team.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-15-2015, 01:32 PM
The Dubs defense is better than any I've seen played on MJ in those specific Finals. Paint is not wide open, not compared to the pre-zone era MJ played in, especially not against a defenseless Suns team, injured Lakers squad. Blazers were legit tho.

GS defense does not impress me at all but you can forget defense. I'm not sure Lebron would hit 50% of his 3 point shots if everyone left the court. Lebron is a great at many facets of the game but clutch outside shooting is not one of them.

beasted86
06-15-2015, 01:35 PM
If LeBron James is willing to stand out there on the floor waiting for the MVP trophy presentationwhile the rest of his team is sulking in the locker, and as he watches the Warriors celebrate a championship.

Then sure, give it to him.

If he's not willing to do that (which I don't think he is) then the award goes to Curry right now.

jason
06-15-2015, 01:36 PM
If LeBron James is willing to stand out there on the floor waiting for the MVP trophy presentationwhile the rest of his team is sulking in the locker, and as he watches the Warriors celebrate a championship.

Then sure, give it to him.

If he's not willing to do that (which I don't think he is) then the award goes to Curry right now.

It would be interesting and funny to see

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:41 PM
you sound like a total homer. Jordan completed a 3 peat against those Suns and played 46 mins a night.
Where did I contest that fact?


His roaster was much less talented then Phx's he was just other worldly.

Phx floored

KJ
Barkley
Thunder Dan
A drug free Richard Dumas
Big Mark West
Danny Ainge
Tim Chambers
etc
Not seeing how thats much more talented. Especially given how weak they were defensively. They had ****** anchors in an era where you couldn't overload the strongside box. Bron in that setting would be playing better IMO, theres a reason why Phil Jackson *****ed and moaned about illegal zones, he made sure the refs kept the kind of defense that is standard today at bay.



If you want applaud LeBron's effort this series that's cool and don't blame you but Micheal is the GOAT for a reason and he was a monster in those finals
I can both applaud Bron and acknowledge MJ had it easier in his superior performance.

beasted86
06-15-2015, 01:42 PM
GS defense does not impress me at all but you can forget defense. I'm not sure Lebron would hit 50% of his 3 point shots if everyone left the court. Lebron is a great at many facets of the game but clutch outside shooting is not one of them.

I don't understand this when as I recall most of his clutch shots were 3s.

Magic game winner in like 2010. OKC with the cramps in 2012. This year against the Bulls. Etc

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:46 PM
GS defense does not impress me at all but you can forget defense. I'm not sure Lebron would hit 50% of his 3 point shots if everyone left the court. Lebron is a great at many facets of the game but clutch outside shooting is not one of them.

My argument is that the defenses MJ played in those comparisons were even less impressive due to the fact that they couldn't wall off the paint the way defenses can today. Im not seeing what outside shooting has to do with anything, particularly clutch outside shooting when we're talking about the PAINT game being more open in the pre-zone era. Bron would rely LESS on his outside shooting back then because EVERYONE relied less on it. Hell, re-watch those Finals vs the Lakers, Magic is literally left wide open from 3 and he bricks every single one, he was defended by MJ/Pippen and still had an efficient series because the game was more about working from the inside and finding passing angles to midrange shooters.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-15-2015, 01:49 PM
I don't understand this when as I recall most of his clutch shots were 3s.

Magic game winner in like 2010. OKC with the cramps in 2012. This year against the Bulls. Etc

When a player takes so many some of them are bound to go in. You just named 3 in 5 years. How many do you think he has taken in those 5 years? Last night he airballed an open 3 point shot. For all his great skills outside shooting is not one of them.

BDawk4Prez
06-15-2015, 01:50 PM
Best ever?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

This series change when Iggy began starting. THAT has proven to be the most valuable decision so far. If Iggy has a strong game 6, I think it is his. If not, assuming Curry does, it's his.

If the Cavs lose, LBJ should not be the MVP.

I wonder how many points Curry, or hell, insert any name there would score if they put up 35+ shots a game.

LBJ is low efficiency high reward. He's literally chucking the series away because he tries to do too much on his own.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:52 PM
No the Warriors defense is only good when Bogut is playing, he is what made them the #1 defense in the league. Without him they would be around the 9th or 10th best in the league. He has played around 18 mpg in this series and didn't even play yesterday at all.

also defensive rating is not a good indication. 1989 Cavs had a better defensive rating than the 1989 Pistons and it was clear that the Pistons were the better defensive team.

No the Warriors defense is always good they play Green-Iggy/Livingston, Klay. Bogut makes them better but that doesn't mean they are on the level of a pitiful Suns team and certainly not an injured Lakers team.

Your second example confuses me. Cavs were seriously injured come playoffs and the existence of regular season vs playoff motivation taints all numbers. You're pretty much contradicting yourself tho, in one argument you give me a ranking and in another you defame the most accurate barometer for said rankings. If they're not reliable, how exactly are you coming to your theory of them being 9th or 10th?

ewing
06-15-2015, 02:08 PM
Where did I contest that fact?


Not seeing how thats much more talented. Especially given how weak they were defensively. They had ****** anchors in an era where you couldn't overload the strongside box. Bron in that setting would be playing better IMO, theres a reason why Phil Jackson *****ed and moaned about illegal zones, he made sure the refs kept the kind of defense that is standard today at bay.



I can both applaud Bron and acknowledge MJ had it easier in his superior performance.

you like to talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to your boyfriend

Chronz
06-15-2015, 02:17 PM
you like to talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to your boyfriend

My boyfriend has been retired for years, his name was Tracy.

ewing
06-15-2015, 02:20 PM
My boyfriend has been retired for years, his name was Tracy.


Micheal 93 performance easily trumps Bron's current performance. Bron has been real impressive Micheal was completely dominant.

apocalypse15
06-15-2015, 02:23 PM
If LeBron James is willing to stand out there on the floor waiting for the MVP trophy presentationwhile the rest of his team is sulking in the locker, and as he watches the Warriors celebrate a championship.

Then sure, give it to him.

If he's not willing to do that (which I don't think he is) then the award goes to Curry right now.

This sounds about right.

Ty Fast
06-15-2015, 03:00 PM
You're saying IF golden state wins, right? But u said lebron?? lol, wtf??

I think iggy and curry are prob the two most likely. I wanna say iggy cuz of his 2 way play

I was just saying the candidates and win or lose bron is one

Chronz
06-15-2015, 03:04 PM
Micheal 93 performance easily trumps Bron's current performance. Bron has been real impressive Micheal was completely dominant.

I followed those Suns teams heavily, have family in Phx. To this day I prolly overrate Charles but I'd love to see him get away with all those backdowns and hero-ball mindset today. Still great but when it comes to bully ball/isolation players, they had it easier back then. I subscribe to the school of Larry and Ainge when it comes to appreciating the amount of attention to detail teams have to pay to defense these days. Its truly more of a team on a string on a consistent basis than it ever was back then. Physicality counts for something but I dont see many claiming the 50's-70's being superior defensively due to their physicality. With reason, they were barely discovering the advantages of double teaming. The only thing anyone knew back when the game started was that we CANT allow zones. They feared it would muck up the game so much that nobody would watch. Jerry West is quoted as saying he rarely doubled, players took pride in playing 1 v 1 basketball. Mano a mano.

So I look at that Suns team, I see absolutely no defensive hustle, anchor and aside from Majerle, not a single physical specimen that can defend the swings at todays level. Not without major defensive support behind him, the kind that was pretty much illegal back then.

You overrate the degree of difficulty MJ had. Bron losing kind of eliminates any chance at him having the superior performance in my book but when I look back on Finals Losses (or losses to the eventual champs) , this is Wilt Chamberlain like in how hes gotten far more out of talent deprived team. These kind of put it all on the line performances are pretty rare. Individual Production + Team Influence is "unfathomable" .

This isn't just another team in the Warriors, this is one of the most thorough evisceration's of a season in THE toughest conference to boot. They have an embarrassment of riches at their disposal, they can play and adapt to any style. Comparing them to the likes of the Suns, a team that for all intents and purposes was a 1 year blip is unimaginable. Thats why I dont consider his performance to be that special. I find his 96 Finals to be his most remarkable because of the competition and more of the similar rules that were applied to him. Sonics were pros at hiding their zones, better than any team of their era. 92 Finals is probably peak MJ tho.

flea
06-15-2015, 03:10 PM
Bron himself has had better Finals. Duncan never won with his 2nd best player being on Shumps level, just stop bro. Ur outing urself.

You think 31 year old Bowen was way better than Shumpert? Guy barely played in the NBA in his 20s - 5363 total regular season minutes in his 20s. Shumpert already has 6208 regular season minutes and he's only 24. Shumpert's better offensively, and while everyone will agree Bowen was better defensively it's not like the difference is all that much. I think Bowen was probably better in later years than his 2nd season with the Spurs, but either way if he was some difference-maker he would have played in his athletic prime instead of going undrafted and bouncing around benches until he was 29. Save for getting over the knee injury Shumpert has been a top 5 perimeter man since very early in his career.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 03:13 PM
Micheal 93 performance easily trumps Bron's current performance. Bron has been real impressive Micheal was completely dominant.

what more could he do. he's playing the role of about three different traditional players out there.

KingPosey
06-15-2015, 03:13 PM
Um no he is historically having the best finals ever... His usage is now better than Jordans as well... He is avg 38/13/9 in these finals. He has been the teams best perimeter defender and has played every position on the court... Who has had a better finals?
hes averaging 36 12 and 9 but I get what youre saying.

And what do you mean "his usage is better"?

Anyone saying curry has been awful every game outside of one game is wrong though.

flea
06-15-2015, 03:15 PM
Also I think that Suns team was the best team the Bulls faced in their first 3peat. I think they'd compete pretty well these days, surprised you don't think so. West was a tough center, and Miller could be every bit as good as young Kendrick Perkins could ever dream to be when he wasn't on drugs or w/e. Charles was a lot more than a low center of gravity post man too, he's what Lebron wishes he could be so far in these Finals.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 03:18 PM
You think 31 year old Bowen was way better than Shumpert?
**** yeah I do. I was a big Miami fan because of Zo, an All-League Defender in Bowen accomplished more in that 1 year than Shump has in his entire career. Check Kobes stats vs the Spurs before and after Bowen. And Bowen wasn't even their 2nd best player but definitely well above Shump. He may have bounced around, but by the time he got to San Antonio, he was developed. Shump still hasn't found a calling due to those injuries. Injuries hes playing through today.


Save for getting over the knee injury Shumpert has been a top 5 perimeter man since very early in his career.

Nah, he plays the passing lanes and doesn't fight over screens very well. I've had this argument with spurs fans before, Shump isn't anywhere near sniffing Bowen. Bowen had GOAT level lateral movements. He rarely gambled, he was the type of guy who could fight through a Ray Allen pin down and still block that release, the kind of dude that blocked Mr Big Shot in the NBA finals.

flea
06-15-2015, 03:24 PM
Nobody fights over screens all game anymore except Tony Allen, teams just scheme away from it unless they have elite rim protection. At any rate, he's done a bang-up job these Finals on Thompson, holding him to 18 on 42% and 30% from 3. I'd say a good amount of those come on transition layups too, based on what I recall. That's probably the 2nd or 3rd best shooter in the game today getting shut down. He's been good on Curry at times too, it's tough that Delly is too small for Thompson otherwise maybe they could do more of that. I'd like to see more Lebron/JR/Shump/Thompson/Mozgov lineup.

beasted86
06-15-2015, 03:26 PM
When a player takes so many some of them are bound to go in. You just named 3 in 5 years. How many do you think he has taken in those 5 years? Last night he airballed an open 3 point shot. For all his great skills outside shooting is not one of them.

Your argument makes no sense. First you say clutch 3s, and now it sounds like you're talking about basically all 3s anywhere near late in the game or in a closeout game.

Sounds like you expect a non 3pt shooter to suddenly become Larry Bird as if it's just some flip of the switch.

Anyway, I have no plans if defending LeBron anymore, so have at it, whatever logic you want to buy into.

ewing
06-15-2015, 03:26 PM
what more could he do. he's playing the role of about three different traditional players out there.

he could make the shots

NYKnickFanatic
06-15-2015, 03:36 PM
Jordan had a better finals pretty much every year. Compiling a lot of big numbers because the ball is in your hand all the time does not determine who played best. Playing winning basketball against great teams determines who played best. GS is basically playing a 6-7 and under team in the finals. The paint is wide open with no shotblocking to be feared and still Lebron is shooting under 40%.

Jordan vs the Lakers: 31ppg-7rpg-11apg on 56 FG%-50 3P%
Jordan vs the Blazers: 36ppg-5rpg-7apg on 53 FG%-43 3P%
Jordan vs the Suns: 41ppg-9rpg-6apg on 51 FG%-40 3P%

Impressive, but look at Jordan's teammates and their averages.

LeBron would be shooting a much higher percentage if GS wasn't only worrying about him. Put KLove and Kyrie out there and his shooting percentage jumps up significantly.

vs the Lakers:
Pippen: 21ppg-9rpg-7apg
Grant: 15ppg-8rpg
Paxson: 13ppg

vs the Blazers:
Pippen: 21ppg-8rpg-8apg
Paxson: 10ppg
Grant: 9ppg-8rpg-4asp

vs the Suns:
Pippen: 21ppg-9rpg-8apg
Armstrong: 14ppg-5apg
Grant: 11ppg-10rpg

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 03:43 PM
he could make the shots

if he did that how would we know the difference between him and god out there

ewing
06-15-2015, 03:50 PM
Impressive, but look at Jordan's teammates and their averages.

LeBron would be shooting a much higher percentage if GS wasn't only worrying about him. Put KLove and Kyrie out there and his shooting percentage jumps up significantly.


Pip was the only other real scorer the Bulls ran out their. This notion that the Bulls were stacked without Micheal is just wrong. They overachieved without him but only other scorer on the team was Pip. Horce was a very versatile defender but had little offensive game. BJ Armstong, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Scott Williams, bill Wennington, Longly, over the hill Ron Harper, Stacy King, past his prime Bill Cartwright. Will Perdue, Dennis. You are right that Bron would be taking less shots and shooting a higher % if those guys were out their but the Bulls offensive most of the time was give the ball to micheal.

ewing
06-15-2015, 03:52 PM
if he did that how would we know the difference between him and god out there


you asked what he could do. He could make the shots and then they would win. i'll admit he has been great but its not the best anyone has ever done

Chronz
06-15-2015, 03:54 PM
Nobody fights over screens all game anymore except Tony Allen, teams just scheme away from it unless they have elite rim protection. At any rate, he's done a bang-up job these Finals on Thompson, holding him to 18 on 42% and 30% from 3. I'd say a good amount of those come on transition layups too, based on what I recall. That's probably the 2nd or 3rd best shooter in the game today getting shut down. He's been good on Curry at times too, it's tough that Delly is too small for Thompson otherwise maybe they could do more of that. I'd like to see more Lebron/JR/Shump/Thompson/Mozgov lineup.
Watching CP3 all these years, I really appreciate the players that know how to avoid getting screened. Shump doesn't die on picks but hes not all that level headed.

Given their roles, Thompson has done an even better job on Shump, hes helping AND recovering at a far higher level. I dont see Shump bothering him much, certainly not to the degree Bowen used to bother superior offensive players than a Klay Thompson who while has improved his consistency, isn't my idea of a great scorer.

Klay is still getting the same amount of catch and shoot attempts he has all playoffs, hes just not making them. Going by NBA.com definition of a guarded shot, hes actually gotten more wideopen+open looks than he has for his playoff average. Those are the shots hes missed the most, Shump has done a decent job when he actually puts it on the floor, hard to divy up defensive credit tho. My thing has always been, if you're going to be useless on the defensive glass, you better be forcing more misses, Shump aint got **** on Bowen in that regard. Hell, in this finals alone hes probably the 4th most talented perimeter defender outside of Iggy, Klay AND Livingston. Those guys can defend with their brains AND their length.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 04:02 PM
Pip was the only other real scorer the Bulls ran out their. This notion that the Bulls were stacked without Micheal is just wrong. They overachieved without him but only other scorer on the team was Pip. Horce was a very versatile defender but had little offensive game. BJ Armstong, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Scott Williams, bill Wennington, Longly, over the hill Ron Harper, Stacy King, past his prime Bill Cartwright. Will Perdue, Dennis. You are right that Bron would be taking less shots and shooting a higher % if those guys were out their but the Bulls offensive most of the time was give the ball to micheal.

I think that era was weak outside of the top talent, because of rampant expansion/injuries many great players had to suffer through horrible casts. MJ consistently had top level support in the 90's, the worst team he had to carry was basically a team that could go .500 without him. Before that they were still in contention without him and I imagine would have remained so once they acquired Rodman.

Aside from that, Chicago put immense effort to actually developing a reserve unit, Tex Winter used to say they ran the triangle better than MJ did. They were way ahead on bringing Kukoc over to bolster that depth. For their era, I dont see how they weren't stacked, not too many teams were sporting top level talent that could match them.

Would be interesting to examine how the Bulls fared when MJ sat tho, I can only recall the games where they actually brought the team back but thats too selective.

ewing
06-15-2015, 04:04 PM
Watching CP3 all these years, I really appreciate the players that know how to avoid getting screened. Shump doesn't die on picks but hes not all that level headed.

Given their roles, Thompson has done an even better job on Shump, hes helping AND recovering at a far higher level. I dont see Shump bothering him much, certainly not to the degree Bowen used to bother superior offensive players than a Klay Thompson who while has improved his consistency, isn't my idea of a great scorer.

Klay is still getting the same amount of catch and shoot attempts he has all playoffs, hes just not making them. Going by NBA.com definition of a guarded shot, hes actually gotten more wideopen+open looks than he has for his playoff average. Those are the shots hes missed the most, Shump has done a decent job when he actually puts it on the floor, hard to divy up defensive credit tho. My thing has always been, if you're going to be useless on the defensive glass, you better be forcing more misses, Shump aint got **** on Bowen in that regard. Hell, in this finals alone hes probably the 4th most talented perimeter defender outside of Iggy, Klay AND Livingston. Those guys can defend with their brains AND their length.


I agree that Shump is not on Bowen level but few are. That said i do think he is very good. I also agree with flee that cavs would benfit if they could afford to put Shump on Curry for stretches. He is an excellent defender and Curry does over dribble at times. I also think Klay is bit overrated on the that end and i'm not sure about Livington- i watch him more closely next game :). That said the guy who has impressed me most of the defensive end this series is TT. Dude is great on perimeter. I think he has the skills to be a serviceable offensive player too he just needs to get smarter with the ball

Chronz
06-15-2015, 04:06 PM
Impressive, but look at Jordan's teammates and their averages.

LeBron would be shooting a much higher percentage if GS wasn't only worrying about him. Put KLove and Kyrie out there and his shooting percentage jumps up significantly.

Not to mention the added fast breaks, inferior athletes to check him AND friendlier isolation rules.

lol, please
06-15-2015, 04:08 PM
Who should be MVP? Steph? Iggy? Bron?
I think the guy who deserves it most is JJ Barea haha. In all seriousness I say Steph.

Curry, Iggy, or Lee. If the Cavs win, the mvp should be Joey Crawford

Chronz
06-15-2015, 04:09 PM
I agree that Shump is not on Bowen level but few are. That said i do think he is very good. I also agree with flee that cavs would benfit if they could afford to put Shump on Curry for stretches. He is an excellent defender and Curry does over dribble at times. I also think Klay is bit overrated on the that end and i'm not sure about Livington- i watch him more closely next game :). That said the guy who has impressed me most of the defensive end this series is TT. Dude is great on perimeter. I think he has the skills to be a serviceable offensive player too he just needs to get smarter with the ball

I've loved his defense since the day he donned a Clipper jersey, he was way ahead of the curve for a teen on that end. Shump is just as overrated as Klay to me, only Klay can play his superior brand of defense while dropping 20 and opening up the game for his teammates.

D-Leethal
06-15-2015, 04:30 PM
Shump's D is overrated IMO. His 1 on 1 defense is certainly elite - you can count the guys who can lock you down in isolation better than him on one hand. But his team defense sucks. He gets lost a lot in rotation, has had multiple bum shoulder injuries so he doesn't even attempt to fight through screens anymore. As a result, teams don't iso him 1 on 1 and they constantly throw screens at him and his impact on D turns to ****.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 04:30 PM
And while I get the idea of wanting to put a bigger player on Steph, I really dont think Shumps size is all that much of an upgrade over Dellys effort+intelligence.

Blatt played that Bron-Smith-Shump trio this series, theyve been a -17 in those 16 minutes when they shared the floor with 2 traditional bigs. A -3 in 3 minutes with James Jones + TT

-9 in 4 minutes with Mozgov+James Jones

The man HAS tried to go with size, I know its a small sample but with so few games remaining, at what point do you just abandon the strategy? Delly is super important cuz hes actually a better matchup against Curry IMO.

ewing
06-15-2015, 04:30 PM
I think that era was weak outside of the top talent, because of rampant expansion/injuries many great players had to suffer through horrible casts. MJ consistently had top level support in the 90's, the worst team he had to carry was basically a team that could go .500 without him. Before that they were still in contention without him and I imagine would have remained so once they acquired Rodman.

Aside from that, Chicago put immense effort to actually developing a reserve unit, Tex Winter used to say they ran the triangle better than MJ did. They were way ahead on bringing Kukoc over to bolster that depth. For their era, I dont see how they weren't stacked, not too many teams were sporting top level talent that could match them.

Would be interesting to examine how the Bulls fared when MJ sat tho, I can only recall the games where they actually brought the team back but thats too selective.



You could have Barkley, KJ, Dan, Chambers, ainge etc or you have could have Dexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth, Cliff Robinson, etc or you could have GP, Kemp, Sam Perkins, Nate, and Hersey. Sorry but IMO outside of Micheal the bulls had little punch. They overachieved for a year IMO and crazy old Dennis Rodman was not keeping them at the top of the league w/o Micheal. As for the reserve unit- i don't remember them having one. Micheal averaged 40 mins night and that went up in the playoffs.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 04:38 PM
Not to mention the added fast breaks, inferior athletes to check him AND friendlier isolation rules.

Inferior athletes really? Does a 31 year old Iggy really qualify as a superior athlete for this in comparison to the defenders Jordan faced in the finals?

andy2518
06-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Curry, Iggy, or Lee. If the Cavs win, the mvp should be Joey Crawford

Crawford actually statistically favors away teams in the finals by like 80% I believe and was not exactly helping out Golden State (who happened to be the away team) by any means in game four when he was officiating. It was actually one of the closer games in the series in terms of FT disparity.

G_S_W
06-15-2015, 04:48 PM
You could have Barkley, KJ, Dan, Chambers, ainge etc or you have could have Dexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth, Cliff Robinson, etc or you could have GP, Kemp, Sam Perkins, Nate, and Hersey. Sorry but IMO outside of Micheal the bulls had little punch. They overachieved for a year IMO and crazy old Dennis Rodman was not keeping them at the top of the league w/o Micheal. As for the reserve unit- i don't remember them having one. Micheal averaged 40 mins night and that went up in the playoffs.

I have no idea where the notion of idea of Jordan having a "superteam" came from. This is just a completely silly claim.

Pip was a terrific playmaker and extra-ordinary defender, but only functioned effectively as Jordan's lieutenant. The rest of the team was a rag-tag, motley crue of oddly mediocre pieces. Wennington and Longley? Bill Cartwright? Not exactly a who's who of nba centers. Harp way past his prime. Kukoc the prototypical euro-weenie softie. Kerr off the bench was capable of making an open 3 now and again. Who wouldn't with Jordan being triple teamed every single play?

Yeah, the Bulls in the year after Jordan's "retirement" were clearly on a mission--a bit like today's Cavs with Lebron: over-achieving and outworking everyone else.

But the Bulls without Jordan were basically a .500 team over an extended period of time.

Of course, the claim that Jordan had superior support is a weak attempt to minimize Jordan's GOAT status, thereby elevating Kobe and Lebron.

Why people "identify" with superstar players anyway, is beyond me.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:51 PM
People saying efficiency wah wah wah `but neglect that James has played 5 different positions and leads all teams in assists and rebounds as well.... on top of throwing down 40 a game... If he was scoring 40 with 2 assists and 2 rebounds some would have a point but last I checked he is damn near avg a trip dub for the series... In the 4th quarter he was the result of 22 straight points for the cavs..... but none of that matters lol.


I have never seen less basketball understanding than I have these past 3 pages. Good job

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 04:53 PM
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/lebron-james-nba-finals-mvp-robbed-best-player-averages-points-records-cleveland-cavaliers-golden-state-warriors-steph-curry


LeBron had a 40-point, 14-rebound, 11-assist performance in Game 5 ó the first in NBA Finals history. Heís averaging 36.6 points, 12.4 rebounds and 8.8 assists in this series. Heís played 228 of a possible 250 minutes. And in those 22 minutes he hasnít been on the floor, Cleveland has been outscored by 22 points ó one point per minute. Heís been doing all this without Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving, who was injured in Game 1. The cast of characters heís left with might see a few minutes of playing time if they were on the Warriors. LeBron is like Sisyphus, but the man in that myth was only weighed down by his rock. LeBronís rocks are drowning him.

Hasnt played 22 minutes and in those 22 minutes the warriors have out scored the cavs by 22 points lolololol.

valade16
06-15-2015, 04:55 PM
I have no idea where the notion of idea of Jordan having a "superteam" came from. This is just a completely silly claim.

Pip was a terrific playmaker and extra-ordinary defender, but only functioned effectively as Jordan's lieutenant. The rest of the team was a rag-tag, motley crue of oddly mediocre pieces. Wennington and Longley? Bill Cartwright? Not exactly a who's who of nba centers. Harp way past his prime. Kukoc the prototypical euro-weenie softie. Kerr off the bench was capable of making an open 3 now and again. Who wouldn't with Jordan being triple teamed every single play?

Yeah, the Bulls in the year after Jordan's "retirement" were clearly on a mission--a bit like today's Cavs with Lebron: over-achieving and outworking everyone else.

But the Bulls without Jordan were basically a .500 team over an extended period of time.

Of course, the claim that Jordan had superior support is a weak attempt to minimize Jordan's GOAT status, thereby elevating Kobe and Lebron.

Why people "identify" with superstar players anyway, is beyond me.

Let's not undersell his teammates either.

Scottie Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting when MJ was out and led the Bulls to a 55-27 record and the 3rd seed in the East. He was a capable 1st option and team leader.

But the thing that made the Bulls so good was their defense, and that's because they had 3 of the best defenders of all-time on the team in MJ, Scottie and Rodman.

In 96 all 3 made the Defensive 1st team. All 3 of them. They had tremendous defense and the ultimate offensive weapon (MJ) with enough complementary pieces to make it work.

They were very much like the current Cavs if the Cavs simply added Scottie Pippen, because to compare MJ's 2nd 3pt Bulls teams to the Cavs team Bron has now, the difference is Bron doesn't have a Pippen.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 04:56 PM
Its like the bulls success without Jordan never even happened. It should have been an eye opener to how incredible pippen was and how lucky Jordan was to have him

KingPosey
06-15-2015, 04:56 PM
Impressive, but look at Jordan's teammates and their averages.

LeBron would be shooting a much higher percentage if GS wasn't only worrying about him. Put KLove and Kyrie out there and his shooting percentage jumps up significantly.

vs the Lakers:
Pippen: 21ppg-9rpg-7apg
Grant: 15ppg-8rpg
Paxson: 13ppg

vs the Blazers:
Pippen: 21ppg-8rpg-8apg
Paxson: 10ppg
Grant: 9ppg-8rpg-4asp

vs the Suns:
Pippen: 21ppg-9rpg-8apg
Armstrong: 14ppg-5apg
Grant: 11ppg-10rpg
Im NOT saying Lebron's cast is equal or better but you cant argue like this. You cant just cherry pick players with good counting stats and no other context.

Vs Hawks:
JR- 18/8/4
Kyrie- 13/6/4
TT-- 12/11/2 blocks
Moz- 12/11

Vs Bulls:

Kyrie- 18/2/3
JR- 13/4/4
Iman- 13/5/4
TT- 9/11/2 blocks

VS Celts:

Kyrie- 23/5/4
Love- 14/7/3
Moz- 10/8/3 blocks
TT- 7/7

Vs GS:

Kyrie- 23/7/6
Moz- 13/7
TT- 9/13


Doesn't quite tell the whole story right?

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 05:02 PM
Its like the bulls success without Jordan never even happened. It should have been an eye opener to how incredible pippen was and how lucky Jordan was to have him

yup... Jordan is the best but one poster said he is overrated and that is a fact... People think he can walk on water but forget the insane teams he had... Pippen might actually be one of the most underrated players ever because of how overrated Jordan is.... He is the GOAT but the notion that put MJ on any team and watch them win the title ******** is hilarious.

kdspurman
06-15-2015, 05:04 PM
Iggy or Curry probably. I'd bet on it being Curry, unless Iggy has a crazy game 6/7) It won't be Lebron

PraiseJesus
06-15-2015, 05:25 PM
Curry because when he has an off night the gsw are worthless

Chronz
06-15-2015, 05:30 PM
Inferior athletes really? Does a 31 year old Iggy really qualify as a superior athlete for this in comparison to the defenders Jordan faced in the finals?

Strictly in the Finals? Hell yeah man, Iggy is shredded, ur talking about a guy whos arguably been the 2nd best player on a championship team. Guys so athletic he could participate in the dunk contest like 10 years apart or whatever it was. If he was in his prime this would be a non-question but Bron has faced him even back in Philly. 31 aint that old, was Pippen too old at 31?

I am overstating the difference tho, there have always been elite defenses in any era, MJ dominating those defenses was more impressive to me. In that first 3-peat I really only respected the Blazers. Suns had the athletes on the perimeter but were cake soft in the middle. Impressive team to defeat, not an impressive team to put up higher scoring marks against. It was pretty much an offensive series IMO. The Lakers couldve been a great matchup but it was marked by injury.

Scoots
06-15-2015, 05:37 PM
No the Warriors defense is only good when Bogut is playing, he is what made them the #1 defense in the league. Without him they would be around the 9th or 10th best in the league. He has played around 18 mpg in this series and didn't even play yesterday at all.

also defensive rating is not a good indication. 1989 Cavs had a better defensive rating than the 1989 Pistons and it was clear that the Pistons were the better defensive team.

Actually when Bogut missed a few weeks the D was better. Bogut is important too, but without him the D is different and still good.

Scoots
06-15-2015, 05:39 PM
How is a thread about LeBron suddenly about MJ? I know, it's because LeBron/MJ/Kobe fans have no attention span.

I think LeBron should get the MVP, I don't think he will.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 05:40 PM
You could have Barkley, KJ, Dan, Chambers, ainge etc or you have could have Dexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth, Cliff Robinson, etc or you could have GP, Kemp, Sam Perkins, Nate, and Hersey. Sorry but IMO outside of Micheal the bulls had little punch. They overachieved for a year IMO and crazy old Dennis Rodman was not keeping them at the top of the league w/o Micheal. As for the reserve unit- i don't remember them having one. Micheal averaged 40 mins night and that went up in the playoffs.

I know MJ(+Phil) kept him in check (relatively speaking) but are we really gonna credit everything Rodman provided to those 2 because of that?
Rodman has always been a high impact player in the w/l column. He was getting old but he had another year in him. He could be a difference maker or a highly cancerous one depending on his mood.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-15-2015, 05:44 PM
Iggy right now. If Curry mimics his performance next game or 2 (if it goes to 7), then Curry.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 05:51 PM
I have no idea where the notion of idea of Jordan having a "superteam" came from. This is just a completely silly claim.
Depends on your definition of a superteam. stacked talent that doesn't fit or guys who compliment each other in greater ways.

He had as much of a super-team as any given the era. MJ is the best, but when you're the best, the other teams need to make up for that with superior supporting casts. Was there a better #2 than Pippen at the time?

Horace Grant and Dennis Rodmans were freakishly elite at what they did best. There weren't many players like them on other teams as far as peripheral players go. He even had the best snipers for his era, granted he made those guys far more effective. Grant is seriously underrated as far as his 2-way production goes, hes on the level that Bosh was.

So back to the original question, is it talent or influence on winning that matters most?

Looking at Chris Bosh and Horace Grant, its obvious Bosh could carry an offense to a greater degree, but as a third option? Both give you roughly the same production, similar roles as outlet options, only Horace Brings with him superior defense. In a team dynamic as third options, I feel like Horace and Rodman brought more to their teams. Thats MORE supportive to a star player than the alternative IMO. I guess it depends on the players themselves.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 05:58 PM
Strictly in the Finals? Hell yeah man, Iggy is shredded, ur talking about a guy whos arguably been the 2nd best player on a championship team. Guys so athletic he could participate in the dunk contest like 10 years apart or whatever it was. If he was in his prime this would be a non-question but Bron has faced him even back in Philly. 31 aint that old, was Pippen too old at 31?

I am overstating the difference tho, there have always been elite defenses in any era, MJ dominating those defenses was more impressive to me. In that first 3-peat I really only respected the Blazers. Suns had the athletes on the perimeter but were cake soft in the middle. Impressive team to defeat, not an impressive team to put up higher scoring marks against. It was pretty much an offensive series IMO. The Lakers couldve been a great matchup but it was marked by injury.

Not saying that Iggy isn't a great defender, just in comparison to individual defenders Jordan faced, it's not all that much different. Jordan faced great defenses and defenders in his first three-peat as you stated. Jordan was also much older than Lebron in his second three-peat so it's hard to compare as he was 32, 33,and 34 and Lebron is still 30.

As you said, Phoenix would probably be the best comparison to make in terms of both age and defense. Jordan is still vastly superior. Especially considering the fact that Lebron is shooting a paltry 39% from the field, and .48 TS% while facing mostly single coverage in isolation, no real rim protector, and similar level quality of guys who are guarding him. The lack of zones argument does not really apply here, as Golden State has rarely doubled Lebron in iso sets. Not to mention that Lebron has a much higher foul draw rate as this era puts guys to the line much more easily. Then factor in flopping...

R. Johnson#3
06-15-2015, 06:02 PM
If it goes 7 games then I say Lebron. If it goes 6 games then I say Lebron. If Steph scores 101 points and the Warriors win game 6 I still say Lebron. I'm not a fan of Lebron's either.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 06:09 PM
I think lebron's weight on his shoulders is not strictly due to his teammates, I think it has to do with bad coaching and lebron trying to do too much. There's such little ball movement with cle, the guy needs to get his guys in rhythm, let them touch the ball, let them dribble, move off the ball, make plays easy for them. Curry does this, and its part of what made him so good this year. We've had games and stretches where guys were struggling, but Curry never lost faith in the team mentality, and honestly cleveland has a pretty good squad. Mozgov, Shumpert, and TT are all imo championship worthy role players, JR is legit 6th man, Delly is a quality high energy back up. Kyrie is missing and that hurts, but its not like the cavs aren't a good team right now.

5ass
06-15-2015, 06:12 PM
Not saying that Iggy isn't a great defender, just in comparison to individual defenders Jordan faced, it's not all that much different. Jordan faced great defenses and defenders in his first three-peat as you stated. Jordan was also much older than Lebron in his second three-peat so it's hard to compare as he was 32, 33,and 34 and Lebron is still 30.

As you said, Phoenix would probably be the best comparison to make in terms of both age and defense. Jordan is still vastly superior. Especially considering the fact that Lebron is shooting a paltry 39% from the field, and .48 TS% while facing mostly single coverage in isolation, no real rim protector, and similar level quality of guys who are guarding him. The lack of zones argument does not really apply here, as Golden State has rarely doubled Lebron in iso sets. Not to mention that Lebron has a much higher foul draw rate as this era puts guys to the line much more easily. Then factor in flopping...

40% is not all that bad when the Warriors' opponent fg% all regular season was 42%, opponent 3pt% 31. LeBron is shooting 34%

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-15-2015, 06:18 PM
Best ever?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

This series change when Iggy began starting. THAT has proven to be the most valuable decision so far. If Iggy has a strong game 6, I think it is his. If not, assuming Curry does, it's his.

If the Cavs lose, LBJ should not be the MVP.

I wonder how many points Curry, or hell, insert any name there would score if they put up 35+ shots a game.

LBJ is low efficiency high reward. He's literally chucking the series away because he tries to do too much on his own.

How amazing would that be if Lebron lost finals MVP to the two guys guarding him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-15-2015, 06:20 PM
you like to talk out of both sides of your mouth when it comes to your boyfriend

My boyfriend has been retired for years, his name was Tracy.

Well now you have another boyfriend

Chronz
06-15-2015, 06:51 PM
Not saying that Iggy isn't a great defender, just in comparison to individual defenders Jordan faced, it's not all that much different. Jordan faced great defenses and defenders in his first three-peat as you stated. Jordan was also much older than Lebron in his second three-peat so it's hard to compare as he was 32, 33,and 34 and Lebron is still 30.

As you said, Phoenix would probably be the best comparison to make in terms of both age and defense. Jordan is still vastly superior. Especially considering the fact that Lebron is shooting a paltry 39% from the field, and .48 TS% while facing mostly single coverage in isolation, no real rim protector, and similar level quality of guys who are guarding him. The lack of zones argument does not really apply here, as Golden State has rarely doubled Lebron in iso sets. Not to mention that Lebron has a much higher foul draw rate as this era puts guys to the line much more easily. Then factor in flopping...

MJ at an older age had a greater regular season than Bron did this year. I dont think we should focus solely on age with Bron given the insane mileage he has for his age. We'll see how the rest of his decline goes.

Which defenders are you talking about tho? He faced great defenses, but that first set of Finals wasn't that. If you feel that low on the best defensive team we had this year imagine how low I feel against a soft Suns team that had nowhere near the length, less rim protection and rules that prevented the strong side overloads. You're blind if you dont see them waiting for Bron once he enters his triple threat stance. A big part of their offense revolves around Bron barreling to the rim once his teammates read the initial zone coverage and getting in position for offensive rebounds or dump offs. Just gonna agree to disagree on most of this I guess. I can grade MJ's performance higher and still acknowledge he had it significantly easier, especially given his supporting cast.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 06:52 PM
Well now you have another boyfriend

How many times Do I have to tell you, Im not adding you as a friend, much less going gay for you.

bucketss
06-15-2015, 06:55 PM
Best ever?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

This series change when Iggy began starting. THAT has proven to be the most valuable decision so far. If Iggy has a strong game 6, I think it is his. If not, assuming Curry does, it's his.

If the Cavs lose, LBJ should not be the MVP.

I wonder how many points Curry, or hell, insert any name there would score if they put up 35+ shots a game.

LBJ is low efficiency high reward. He's literally chucking the series away because he tries to do too much on his own.

Lol difference is curry is playing with a deep team he doesn't need to take that much shots. if he had to, he would hurt the team because he takes shots away from the other weapons

lebron is chucking because hes playing with an offensively challenged roster. btw i thought chucking was when someone takes a bunch of bad shots? lebrons shots are mostly to the basket but hes not converting like he did in the past. one of the reasons could be because refs don't give him the same calls anymore.

RLundi
06-15-2015, 06:59 PM
How many times Do I have to tell you, Im not adding you as a friend, much less going gay for you.

😂

G_S_W
06-15-2015, 07:09 PM
Depends on your definition of a superteam. stacked talent that doesn't fit or guys who compliment each other in greater ways.

He had as much of a super-team as any given the era. MJ is the best, but when you're the best, the other teams need to make up for that with superior supporting casts. Was there a better #2 than Pippen at the time?

Horace Grant and Dennis Rodmans were freakishly elite at what they did best. There weren't many players like them on other teams as far as peripheral players go. He even had the best snipers for his era, granted he made those guys far more effective. Grant is seriously underrated as far as his 2-way production goes, hes on the level that Bosh was.

So back to the original question, is it talent or influence on winning that matters most?

Looking at Chris Bosh and Horace Grant, its obvious Bosh could carry an offense to a greater degree, but as a third option? Both give you roughly the same production, similar roles as outlet options, only Horace Brings with him superior defense. In a team dynamic as third options, I feel like Horace and Rodman brought more to their teams. Thats MORE supportive to a star player than the alternative IMO. I guess it depends on the players themselves.

I enjoy a lot of your posts, but there is no conceivable universe in which Jordan's supporting casts could ever be considered "superteams." Well, I suppose if you put jordan's teammates against the 60 and over club teams at your local YMCA.

Trying to contextualize jordan's teammates within a specific era is an enormous stretch, at best, borderline outlandish. See that "hot chick" over there? Yeah, her. Yeah, HER. Yeah, she's missing a few teeth, has a muffin top and cankles, but compared to the meth addicts downtown?!? Smokin!

Let's get down to specifics.

Rodman couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. He was a bizarre personality who only "fit" on the bulls because he was willing to accept Jackson and Jordan as alpha dogs. Not to mention, he needed stacked scorers like Jordan/Pip and his Pistons to even find a role in the first place.

Horace was never a 'freak.' A good to very good rebounder, and a good to very good post scorer, yes. A freak? No. He could've made a handful of all star teams at most on other teams as a 1st or 2nd option, but no one could consider him one of the elite tier athletes like iverson, vince carter, jordan, lebron, etc.

Jordan had snipers in paxson and kerr, but again, they were effective with jordan drawing triple teams on a regular basis.

Of course, you don't address how Jordan won with such "elite" freaks like a hobbled cartwright, or modestly coordinated bigs like luc longley and bill wennington. Nor, do you mention how far past his prime harp was. Or how soft and overrated kukoc was. Or, how often pip came up hobbled and limping in key games because of his back. And so it goes.

Jordan singlehandedly willed a bunch of no-name desperado's like kerr and paxson and cartwright etc to 6 rings.

You make it sound as if kerr and paxson and luc longley were a dream team. Unbelievable.

The extent to which some posters will exaggerate for unknown reasons is really quite strange.

Jordan is the greatest athlete ever. Period. Bron and Kobe are so far in his rear view mirror it's a joke.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 07:20 PM
^ you are right but he had Pippen and that counts for a hell of a lot. he's an all time great and he had him sacrificing at his side the whole damn time. he doesn't have 6 rings without him.

esscobar05
06-15-2015, 07:24 PM
The only was that Lebron should win the MVP is if Cleveland wins..
Other than that no way! .399% shooting will not win it again Steph or Iggy...
Curry is the MVP right now but Iggy is close behind..... But if Cleveland wins the series Lebron jumps in front of both of them.

bklynny67
06-15-2015, 07:26 PM
Its like the bulls success without Jordan never even happened. It should have been an eye opener to how incredible pippen was and how lucky Jordan was to have him

yup... Jordan is the best but one poster said he is overrated and that is a fact... People think he can walk on water but forget the insane teams he had... Pippen might actually be one of the most underrated players ever because of how overrated Jordan is.... He is the GOAT but the notion that put MJ on any team and watch them win the title ******** is hilarious.

Man you're a joke. James is not close to Jordan. How can you think he is? Like I said earlier, you must be his mother/father cuz u talkin crazy.

Give Jordan Pippin, and he's 6 for 6 in championships and most people with a brain believe it would be 8 for 8 had he not quit for 2 years.

Give James Wade and Bosh, and he was lucky to have 2 championships thanks to Ray Allen bailing his *** out. If James was close to Jordan, he'd have 4 rings by now easy... No reason MIA should not have won every year with those 3. But they couldn't, cuz James chokes at the end of big games. Jordan didn't.

Seriously, just stop.

esscobar05
06-15-2015, 07:38 PM
Curry... Period!

G_S_W
06-15-2015, 08:00 PM
^ you are right but he had Pippen and that counts for a hell of a lot. he's an all time great and he had him sacrificing at his side the whole damn time. he doesn't have 6 rings without him.

I absolutely agree that Pip is a HOF great. Jordan himself said that Pip was an MVP or near MVP caliber player the season after Jordan "retired."

Pip was poetry in motion. Just an incredibly graceful and skilled athlete with under rated explosiveness. He had one of the broadest and most refined skill sets in the game, re: passing, scoring, rebounding and defense.

Having said all of that, if you read Jordan's bio's, histories of the bulls and a few jordan documentaries, Jordan and Phil Jackson make it clear that Pippen's development was due in large part to Jordan's mentorship.

In other words, had Pip been drafted by another team, he would not have developed in the same way and probably would not have been as great of a player.

Just my two cents.

flea
06-15-2015, 08:34 PM
Pippen was also a guy without much of a jumper until late in his career, a decent post game but nothing you could really build an offense around, and a passing game that was good but sometimes gets overrated (there have been a number of forwards in the history of the game as good or better of a passer as he).

Don't think it's a coincidence that the Bulls dropped from 2nd in the league to 14th (basically league average) in offense when Michael retired in spite of adding Kukoc. They kept pace defensively but they were not the same elite 2-way team without their scorer. If Pippen played his prime today I'm not sure he'd be even as good as Kawhi Leonard's offense was last season.

MinnesotaFtw
06-15-2015, 08:37 PM
He's playing well but he's getting a lot of help by having the 2 best rebounders in the series on his team, as well as perimeter defenders that have pretty much outplayed their checks throughout the series. He's carrying a big scoring load but it's not close to the best Finals I've seen.

Funny how people pretend Duncan's 03 title doesn't exist. His 2nd best player was about as good as Iman Shumpert, he put up 24/17/5 with 5 blocks for the series against one of the best defensive teams that year, had a (uncredited) quadruple double in the Finals, and he led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and blocks for the entire playoffs. Oh and he actually won it all. Then there was Hakeem doing something similar in 94, Jordan in 91 with a raw Pippen, Dirk in 06 before Stern stole the series from him, etc.

Fine series but he's lucky he doesn't have to be anything more than the 5th or 6th best defender in his team. Those big men did not have that luxury - it was be the best player on both sides of the court or lose.

Except he had Robinson who was averaging 8 points and 8 reb. Malik Rose who averaged 10 per, Stephen Jackson who averaged 12 per, ginobli who averaged 8 per, speedy claxton who averaged 6 per, kerr who averaged 5 per, tony parker who averaged 15 per and bruce bowen was was a SHUT DOWN defender and could hit the three and averaged 7 per. that right there is 70 points a game. Not counting duncan who went for 25+ most nights and they were a fantastic defensive team. That team was MUCHHHHHHHHHHHHHH better than Brons current team.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 08:44 PM
MJ at an older age had a greater regular season than Bron did this year. I dont think we should focus solely on age with Bron given the insane mileage he has for his age. We'll see how the rest of his decline goes.

Which defenders are you talking about tho? He faced great defenses, but that first set of Finals wasn't that. If you feel that low on the best defensive team we had this year imagine how low I feel against a soft Suns team that had nowhere near the length, less rim protection and rules that prevented the strong side overloads. You're blind if you dont see them waiting for Bron once he enters his triple threat stance. A big part of their offense revolves around Bron barreling to the rim once his teammates read the initial zone coverage and getting in position for offensive rebounds or dump offs. Just gonna agree to disagree on most of this I guess. I can grade MJ's performance higher and still acknowledge he had it significantly easier, especially given his supporting cast.

Regular season is irrelevant to this discussion as main point is performance in the finals. Yes MJ was better older and had less miles. He was also better younger with more miles. Don't see where you are going with this. Regardless, Lebron and most of his fan base have even openly admitted to him being in coast mode this season so that he would have more in the tank for the playoffs. He even took two weeks off.

Phoenix wasn't the best defensive team Jordan ever faced either, but I will say that they were 9th in the NBA in DRTG which is not a huge drop off from first. Tops in the NBA for sure especially in a more physical era. Is Golden State the better defensive team than Phoenix was? Yes. I'm not denying that. What I am saying though is that it's not a huge enough difference to account for such a dramatic difference in efficiency.

Maybe if we were talking Hakeem or Shaq or even other primary iso players your zone argument would hold more water. But we are not. Lebron is primarily not being double teamed when in iso situations which is not his main strength anyways so zone is not even being utilized all that much. Even with the use of zones in today's NBA, that still does not make it a tougher league to score in. Today's NBA is much softer than it was in Jordan's era. Handchecking, flopping, and ref-baiting have more than made up for the occasional double team. The foul draw rate Lebron receives in comparison to Jordan is monumental. Even with all those extra free throws and shot attempts being waived off, Jordan still managed to score more and at a much higher efficiency. Jordan's usage was at 38.9 in the NBA finals compared to Lebron's 41.3 in this years finals so far. With a slightly lesser usage, Jordan managed to score more, post a significantly higher ORTG, and even keep his turnover percentage lower as well. I really don't see how you think Jordan had it all that much easier.

True Jordan had Pippen, but as far as an offensive game breaker, Pippen wasn't really all that much in terms of taking the offensive burden off of Jordan. Proof of this is that their usage (15 Lebron and 93 Jordan) is only 2% apart in the finals. Lebron's current squad in terms of defense is the best it's been all year without Kyrie and Love and easily on par with Jordan's 1993 squad in terms of defense. Offensively Jordan had more help, but not as much as you are making it out.

Another thing to take into account is that while Lebron is out playing Curry throughout the game, he is not in the 4th quarter. Curry is slightly outplaying Lebron in 4th quarters and the same could not be said about Barkley over Jordan at any given point in the 1993 NBA finals.

G_S_W
06-15-2015, 09:01 PM
Great post, andy.

flea
06-15-2015, 09:36 PM
Except he had Robinson who was averaging 8 points and 8 reb. Malik Rose who averaged 10 per, Stephen Jackson who averaged 12 per, ginobli who averaged 8 per, speedy claxton who averaged 6 per, kerr who averaged 5 per, tony parker who averaged 15 per and bruce bowen was was a SHUT DOWN defender and could hit the three and averaged 7 per. that right there is 70 points a game. Not counting duncan who went for 25+ most nights and they were a fantastic defensive team. That team was MUCHHHHHHHHHHHHHH better than Brons current team.

Duncan's teammates contributed 70 PPG on 41.5% FG and 35.7% 3PT in the entire playoffs.

Lebron's teammates have contributed so far 69 PPG on 42.2% FG and 35.7% 3PT in entire playoffs.

Lebron is currently the 5th best defensive starter, generally finds himself hidden on non-threats so he can gamble and crash the defensive glass, and is nothing close to the rebounder prime Duncan was.

Duncan was the best defensive player on the court every one of the 24 games he played in 2003, and carried a pitiful defensive squad outside of Bowen to elite ratings. Parker was never good defensively and he was even worse at 20, Robinson was a shell of himself and retired after the season (only played 23 MPG) and Rose was okay for an undersized forward with a low IQ but the rest were young wings and guards who only played because they could shoot.

Some people look at names and see Tony Parker scoring 14.4 PPG but he was 20 years old, could not shoot or defend at all and was not much of a passer, and was even benched for the great Speedy Claxton multiple times late in games. It was a way more impressive performance, obscured by the names that played on his roster in spite of their severe lack of talent at the time. None of Parker, Ginobli, and Robinson were anything better than the 4th (more likely the 5th) best player on that team - and you could flip a coin to pick which one was actually that.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 09:50 PM
Duncan's teammates contributed 70 PPG on 41.5% FG and 35.7% 3PT in the entire playoffs.

Lebron's teammates have contributed so far 69 PPG on 42.2% FG and 35.7% 3PT in entire playoffs.

Lebron is currently the 5th best defensive starter, generally finds himself hidden on non-threats so he can gamble and crash the defensive glass, and is nothing close to the rebounder prime Duncan was.

Duncan was the best defensive player on the court every one of the 24 games he played in 2003, and carried a pitiful defensive squad outside of Bowen to elite ratings. Parker was never good defensively and he was even worse at 20, Robinson was a shell of himself and retired after the season (only played 23 MPG) and Rose was okay for an undersized forward with a low IQ but the rest were young wings and guards who only played because they could shoot.

Some people look at names and see Tony Parker scoring 14.4 PPG but he was 20 years old, could not shoot or defend at all and was not much of a passer, and was even benched for the great Speedy Claxton multiple times late in games. It was a way more impressive performance, obscured by the names that played on his roster in spite of their severe lack of talent at the time. None of Parker, Ginobli, and Robinson were anything better than the 4th (more likely the 5th) best player on that team - and you could flip a coin to pick which one was actually that.

Against and easier conference with contributions from Love very early, and Irving for all but after game 1 of the finals.

LeBron's cast is the worst supporting cast in the history of a finals player.

Show me I am wrong.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 09:57 PM
Regular season is irrelevant to this discussion as main point is performance in the finals. Yes MJ was better older and had less miles. He was also better younger with more miles. Don't see where you are going with this. Regardless, Lebron and most of his fan base have even openly admitted to him being in coast mode this season so that he would have more in the tank for the playoffs. He even took two weeks off.

Phoenix wasn't the best defensive team Jordan ever faced either, but I will say that they were 9th in the NBA in DRTG which is not a huge drop off from first. Tops in the NBA for sure especially in a more physical era. Is Golden State the better defensive team than Phoenix was? Yes. I'm not denying that. What I am saying though is that it's not a huge enough difference to account for such a dramatic difference in efficiency.

Maybe if we were talking Hakeem or Shaq or even other primary iso players your zone argument would hold more water. But we are not. Lebron is primarily not being double teamed when in iso situations which is not his main strength anyways so zone is not even being utilized all that much. Even with the use of zones in today's NBA, that still does not make it a tougher league to score in. Today's NBA is much softer than it was in Jordan's era. Handchecking, flopping, and ref-baiting have more than made up for the occasional double team. The foul draw rate Lebron receives in comparison to Jordan is monumental. Even with all those extra free throws and shot attempts being waived off, Jordan still managed to score more and at a much higher efficiency. Jordan's usage was at 38.9 in the NBA finals compared to Lebron's 41.3 in this years finals so far. With a slightly lesser usage, Jordan managed to score more, post a significantly higher ORTG, and even keep his turnover percentage lower as well. I really don't see how you think Jordan had it all that much easier.

True Jordan had Pippen, but as far as an offensive game breaker, Pippen wasn't really all that much in terms of taking the offensive burden off of Jordan. Proof of this is that their usage (15 Lebron and 93 Jordan) is only 2% apart in the finals. Lebron's current squad in terms of defense is the best it's been all year without Kyrie and Love and easily on par with Jordan's 1993 squad in terms of defense. Offensively Jordan had more help, but not as much as you are making it out.

Another thing to take into account is that while Lebron is out playing Curry throughout the game, he is not in the 4th quarter. Curry is slightly outplaying Lebron in 4th quarters and the same could not be said about Barkley over Jordan at any given point in the 1993 NBA finals.

CURRY gets to rest... James has been almost as dominate in the 4th as Curry without half the help and 0 rest.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 09:57 PM
Against and easier conference with contributions from Love very early, and Irving for all but after game 1 of the finals.

LeBron's cast is the worst supporting cast in the history of a finals player.

Show me I am wrong.

Defensively they have been at their best without Love or Kyrie. Also it's tough to judge based on raw numbers as Lebron's usage is now at a record high. Though I will agree and go out on a limb and say that offensively they are amongst the worst if not the worst ever.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 09:59 PM
CURRY gets to rest... James has been almost as dominate in the 4th as Curry without half the help and 0 rest.

Lebron: 228 minutes played so far.

Curry: 212 minutes played so far.

How much more rest is he really getting now?

flea
06-15-2015, 10:00 PM
Against and easier conference with contributions from Love very early, and Irving for all but after game 1 of the finals.

LeBron's cast is the worst supporting cast in the history of a finals player.

Show me I am wrong.

Offensively I would probably agree, but AI's Sixers were pretty close. The 02-03 Nets cast wasn't doing Kidd any favors offensively, but they were probably better than this Cavs one. 99 Knicks were pretty pathetic once Ewing got hurt, but that's about it offensively.

Defensively and on the boards this depleted team is far from the worst. But yes, if the Cavs manage to win then Lebron's performance will be up there with Barry, Dream, and Duncan for best carry-jobs - even if he shoots 40% FG or below for the series and 44% or below eFG% for the entire playoffs.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 10:15 PM
Man you're a joke. James is not close to Jordan. How can you think he is? Like I said earlier, you must be his mother/father cuz u talkin crazy.

Give Jordan Pippin, and he's 6 for 6 in championships and most people with a brain believe it would be 8 for 8 had he not quit for 2 years.

Give James Wade and Bosh, and he was lucky to have 2 championships thanks to Ray Allen bailing his *** out. If James was close to Jordan, he'd have 4 rings by now easy... No reason MIA should not have won every year with those 3. But they couldn't, cuz James chokes at the end of big games. Jordan didn't.

Seriously, just stop.
And take Pippen from Jordan and he has how many? 0? 2? 6?

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 10:53 PM
Defensively they have been at their best without Love or Kyrie. Also it's tough to judge based on raw numbers as Lebron's usage is now at a record high. Though I will agree and go out on a limb and say that offensively they are amongst the worst if not the worst ever.

it is literally laughable that anyone would attempt to use the increase in defense versus what they lost in offense with Love/Irving.

Pick a side, cool. They are the worst cast in a landslide overall.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 10:54 PM
Offensively I would probably agree, but AI's Sixers were pretty close. The 02-03 Nets cast wasn't doing Kidd any favors offensively, but they were probably better than this Cavs one. 99 Knicks were pretty pathetic once Ewing got hurt, but that's about it offensively.

Defensively and on the boards this depleted team is far from the worst. But yes, if the Cavs manage to win then Lebron's performance will be up there with Barry, Dream, and Duncan for best carry-jobs - even if he shoots 40% FG or below for the series and 44% or below eFG% for the entire playoffs.

see above post please.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 10:59 PM
And take Pippen from Jordan and he has how many? 0? 2? 6?

take Rodman, Horace, maybe all his shooters..... Hear this Pippen guy was a decent player.....

idk. I am not with you that Jordan was totally overrated, he was so boss, but yeah, his teams were absolutely stacked.

raiderposting
06-15-2015, 11:16 PM
Lol at Jordan being overrated, out of the two James is by far being the most overrated.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 11:28 PM
take Rodman, Horace, maybe all his shooters..... Hear this Pippen guy was a decent player.....

idk. I am not with you that Jordan was totally overrated, he was so boss, but yeah, his teams were absolutely stacked.
No idea what you are saying, and I'm not suggesting Jordan was overrated.

Clippersfan86
06-15-2015, 11:30 PM
Curry easily the best GS player.. but for some reason I feel like Iggy has been the biggest X-Factor by far. So it's closer than you'd think. Dude has broken Cavs back so many times.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 11:37 PM
it is literally laughable that anyone would attempt to use the increase in defense versus what they lost in offense with Love/Irving.

Pick a side, cool. They are the worst cast in a landslide overall.

i def think cle is a better squad overall without love. Or at least it out TT in a position to get mins, and IMO makes the team better. The only reason the love injury hurts right now is cuz Kyrie is out too, or else I think moving forward this squad is better off without love and his contract

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 11:48 PM
Lebron: 228 minutes played so far.

Curry: 212 minutes played so far.

How much more rest is he really getting now?

looks to me like those 16 extra minutes are pretty huge.... Thats only um a quarter plus of rest O.O.... On top of that HE HAS MORE HELP... He does not have to do everything everytime they have the ball.

giantspwn
06-15-2015, 11:55 PM
Curry easily the best GS player.. but for some reason I feel like Iggy has been the biggest X-Factor by far. So it's closer than you'd think. Dude has broken Cavs back so many times.

It's close but the nod has to go too Curry. Defensively, Iggy has been as good as anyone can ask in isolation against Lebron. He's also had some incredible grown *** man dunks but Curry is absorbing all the double teams on the perimeter. He's the reason, Iggy's getting all the open look 3's and lanes to drive.

Just feel like most of his opportunities are coming off the attention Curry receives, offensively. That being said, the Warriors probably don't win this series without him given how bad Green and Barnes played in Games 1-3.

Clippersfan86
06-15-2015, 11:58 PM
It's close but the nod has to go too Curry. Defensively, Iggy has been as good as anyone can ask in isolation against Lebron. He's also had some incredible grown *** man dunks but Curry is absorbing all the double teams on the perimeter. He's the reason, Iggy's getting all the open look 3's and lanes to drive.

Just feel like most of his opportunities are coming off the attention Curry receives, offensively. That being said, the Warriors probably don't win this series without him given how bad Green and Barnes played in Games 1-3.

True. One thing to note is that Curry is actually holding opponents on the Cavs to an insane 26 percent shooting this series. So defensively he's been amazing himself. ALTHOUGH that may not be saying much with no Irving and his opposition being guys like Delly+Shump who are by no means big offensive threats.

lol, please
06-16-2015, 03:21 AM
Actually when Bogut missed a few weeks the D was better. Bogut is important too, but without him the D is different and still good.
If I missed a few weeks and my broad told me the D was better in my absence, I'm through with it.

ewing
06-16-2015, 08:31 AM
I enjoy a lot of your posts, but there is no conceivable universe in which Jordan's supporting casts could ever be considered "superteams." Well, I suppose if you put jordan's teammates against the 60 and over club teams at your local YMCA.

Trying to contextualize jordan's teammates within a specific era is an enormous stretch, at best, borderline outlandish. See that "hot chick" over there? Yeah, her. Yeah, HER. Yeah, she's missing a few teeth, has a muffin top and cankles, but compared to the meth addicts downtown?!? Smokin!

Let's get down to specifics.

Rodman couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. He was a bizarre personality who only "fit" on the bulls because he was willing to accept Jackson and Jordan as alpha dogs. Not to mention, he needed stacked scorers like Jordan/Pip and his Pistons to even find a role in the first place.

Horace was never a 'freak.' A good to very good rebounder, and a good to very good post scorer, yes. A freak? No. He could've made a handful of all star teams at most on other teams as a 1st or 2nd option, but no one could consider him one of the elite tier athletes like iverson, vince carter, jordan, lebron, etc.

Jordan had snipers in paxson and kerr, but again, they were effective with jordan drawing triple teams on a regular basis.

Of course, you don't address how Jordan won with such "elite" freaks like a hobbled cartwright, or modestly coordinated bigs like luc longley and bill wennington. Nor, do you mention how far past his prime harp was. Or how soft and overrated kukoc was. Or, how often pip came up hobbled and limping in key games because of his back. And so it goes.

Jordan singlehandedly willed a bunch of no-name desperado's like kerr and paxson and cartwright etc to 6 rings.

You make it sound as if kerr and paxson and luc longley were a dream team. Unbelievable.

The extent to which some posters will exaggerate for unknown reasons is really quite strange.

Jordan is the greatest athlete ever. Period. Bron and Kobe are so far in his rear view mirror it's a joke.



Horce Grant was a 3rd option on any team. he was still young when he left the Bulls and never averaged over 13 ppg. He had no post game. He was a good transition player and finisher that could hit the occasional 15 footer on O. On D is where is did have significant value but unlike what Chronz says he is actually highly overrated b/c of the amount of time he spent in the spotlight.

ewing
06-16-2015, 08:35 AM
^ you are right but he had Pippen and that counts for a hell of a lot. he's an all time great and he had him sacrificing at his side the whole damn time. he doesn't have 6 rings without him.

you are right but just like BJ Armstong, Horce Grant, and Toni Pip was no near the ball player without Mike as he was with him. He had one year in 94 but when he left the Bulls he also fell off a cliff in terms of production and won 0 on two superteams including being part of the biggest choke job i have ever seen by the most talented team i have seen

ewing
06-16-2015, 08:39 AM
Regular season is irrelevant to this discussion as main point is performance in the finals. Yes MJ was better older and had less miles. He was also better younger with more miles. Don't see where you are going with this. Regardless, Lebron and most of his fan base have even openly admitted to him being in coast mode this season so that he would have more in the tank for the playoffs. He even took two weeks off.

Phoenix wasn't the best defensive team Jordan ever faced either, but I will say that they were 9th in the NBA in DRTG which is not a huge drop off from first. Tops in the NBA for sure especially in a more physical era. Is Golden State the better defensive team than Phoenix was? Yes. I'm not denying that. What I am saying though is that it's not a huge enough difference to account for such a dramatic difference in efficiency.

Maybe if we were talking Hakeem or Shaq or even other primary iso players your zone argument would hold more water. But we are not. Lebron is primarily not being double teamed when in iso situations which is not his main strength anyways so zone is not even being utilized all that much. Even with the use of zones in today's NBA, that still does not make it a tougher league to score in. Today's NBA is much softer than it was in Jordan's era. Handchecking, flopping, and ref-baiting have more than made up for the occasional double team. The foul draw rate Lebron receives in comparison to Jordan is monumental. Even with all those extra free throws and shot attempts being waived off, Jordan still managed to score more and at a much higher efficiency. Jordan's usage was at 38.9 in the NBA finals compared to Lebron's 41.3 in this years finals so far. With a slightly lesser usage, Jordan managed to score more, post a significantly higher ORTG, and even keep his turnover percentage lower as well. I really don't see how you think Jordan had it all that much easier.

True Jordan had Pippen, but as far as an offensive game breaker, Pippen wasn't really all that much in terms of taking the offensive burden off of Jordan. Proof of this is that their usage (15 Lebron and 93 Jordan) is only 2% apart in the finals. Lebron's current squad in terms of defense is the best it's been all year without Kyrie and Love and easily on par with Jordan's 1993 squad in terms of defense. Offensively Jordan had more help, but not as much as you are making it out.

Another thing to take into account is that while Lebron is out playing Curry throughout the game, he is not in the 4th quarter. Curry is slightly outplaying Lebron in 4th quarters and the same could not be said about Barkley over Jordan at any given point in the 1993 NBA finals.

welcome Andy- solid post

xbrackattackx
06-16-2015, 09:58 AM
Can't believe this is a thread. great player,bad team. Inflated stats. Kevin Love on the wolves come to mind. I would rather have a less then stellar series and win a championship then win MVP and lose. You play hard all season to win the title, not another individual accolade. Jerry West shouldn't have gotten it over Russell. Loser should never get it.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-16-2015, 10:41 AM
Horce Grant was a 3rd option on any team. he was still young when he left the Bulls and never averaged over 13 ppg. He had no post game. He was a good transition player and finisher that could hit the occasional 15 footer on O. On D is where is did have significant value but unlike what Chronz says he is actually highly overrated b/c of the amount of time he spent in the spotlight.

You are right. I believe Horace was overrated because he played with MJ. He was around a 12 point 9 rebound guy. He was an asset but nothing great.

ewing
06-16-2015, 10:59 AM
You are right. I believe Horace was overrated because he played with MJ. He was around a 12 point 9 rebound guy. He was an asset but nothing great.

he was the type of guy that on an average or bad team would usually be underrated but on great team he became overrated by some

ManRam
06-16-2015, 11:01 AM
Gotta change the name to something other than "Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award" if you're going to give it to someone other than the most valuable player in the NBA Finals, which is going to be that guy on the losing team.

Vinylman
06-16-2015, 11:09 AM
I find this whole debate hilarious because a lot of the pro - efficiency guys are actually stumping for Lebron to win it...

If it was anyone else (cough kobe cough) they would be blasting his efficiency...

the hypocrisy in here is mind boggling.

valade16
06-16-2015, 11:23 AM
looks to me like those 16 extra minutes are pretty huge.... Thats only um a quarter plus of rest O.O.... On top of that HE HAS MORE HELP... He does not have to do everything everytime they have the ball.

One could look at it like only 16 more minutes.

But Curry's USG% is 30% and Bron's is 41%. So given that the 16 extra minutes is huge.

tredigs
06-16-2015, 11:47 AM
Breaks down like this. Lebron has been phenomenal, and is the only reason why their team is in this series and may push 7 games tonight. Though this is not a unique situation for a player from a Finals team historically, it's the most stark example of it I can think of given their injuries. He's clearly the Most Valuable Player to his team or overall in the series so far.

That said, that's just not how this award is given out. By and large it simply goes to the best player on the winning team. I understand fans wanting to re-write the rules given the circumstances if GS does in fact win (and given the media narrative that this unfortunately has on the series, it might work), but there have been many occasions where the "MVP" of the series did not win.

A couple more things:

Curry's averaging 26/5/6 on nearly 60% TS, and played a huge role in all three wins. He's also turned up his play significantly since game 2, and seems to be hitting his standard MVP stride at this point.

If Lebron was able to keep up his Herculean efforts more so in the 2nd halves, was shooting higher than 35% outside of 1 feet, or was taking on a more significant defensive role, he'd have a more clear case imo. As is it's simply super high usage play at a high level. A younger version of him (say, Lebron in the Magic series) would be doing this on higher efficiency and would be capable of blowing by Iggy (which, he is consistently proving incapable of and settling for contested jumpers).

Amazing performance, but if Curry continues his ramped up play AND GS wins, I see no way how you could deny a ~27/6/6 player who is demanding a double team in virtually all situations (much, much more so than Bron as played) Finals MVP. If Curry is not in this series, then the series is already over. There's more than 1 commanding force out there.

valade16
06-16-2015, 11:59 AM
If Curry is not in this series, then the series is already over. There's more than 1 commanding force out there.

What are the on/off stats for Curry this series? Is GS getting beaten when Curry is off the floor?

Jamiecballer
06-16-2015, 12:44 PM
you are right but just like BJ Armstong, Horce Grant, and Toni Pip was no near the ball player without Mike as he was with him. He had one year in 94 but when he left the Bulls he also fell off a cliff in terms of production and won 0 on two superteams including being part of the biggest choke job i have ever seen by the most talented team i have seen

sure but that's why MJ was so lucky to have him. everything MJ didn't or couldn't do was left to Pippen who excelled at it. I will take a Pippen and a bunch of castoffs over anything that LBJ has had yet in his career. More talent is not near as valuable as a superlative talent that fits your game like a glove.

Scoots
06-16-2015, 01:28 PM
To some extent LeBron is making his teammates look a lot worse than they are. I understand why the Cavs are running the offense they are, but it is not good at getting a team playing with rhythm and as a team. To some degree the poor performance of the team is by design.

ewing
06-16-2015, 02:03 PM
To some extent LeBron is making his teammates look a lot worse than they are. I understand why the Cavs are running the offense they are, but it is not good at getting a team playing with rhythm and as a team. To some degree the poor performance of the team is by design.

i do not think that is fair at all. the cavs game plan is to "muck the game up" b/c they have a superior one on one 1/2 court player. this makes it harder for everyone to get good looks- that isn't Bron's fault

giantspwn
06-16-2015, 02:35 PM
Breaks down like this. Lebron has been phenomenal, and is the only reason why their team is in this series and may push 7 games tonight. Though this is not a unique situation for a player from a Finals team historically, it's the most stark example of it I can think of given their injuries. He's clearly the Most Valuable Player to his team or overall in the series so far.

That said, that's just not how this award is given out. By and large it simply goes to the best player on the winning team. I understand fans wanting to re-write the rules given the circumstances if GS does in fact win (and given the media narrative that this unfortunately has on the series, it might work), but there have been many occasions where the "MVP" of the series did not win.

A couple more things:

Curry's averaging 26/5/6 on nearly 60% TS, and played a huge role in all three wins. He's also turned up his play significantly since game 2, and seems to be hitting his standard MVP stride at this point.

If Lebron was able to keep up his Herculean efforts more so in the 2nd halves, was shooting higher than 35% outside of 1 feet, or was taking on a more significant defensive role, he'd have a more clear case imo. As is it's simply super high usage play at a high level. A younger version of him (say, Lebron in the Magic series) would be doing this on higher efficiency and would be capable of blowing by Iggy (which, he is consistently proving incapable of and settling for contested jumpers).

Amazing performance, but if Curry continues his ramped up play AND GS wins, I see no way how you could deny a ~27/6/6 player who is demanding a double team in virtually all situations (much, much more so than Bron as played) Finals MVP. If Curry is not in this series, then the series is already over. There's more than 1 commanding force out there.

Completely agree.

ManRam
06-16-2015, 02:38 PM
Breaks down like this. Lebron has been phenomenal, and is the only reason why their team is in this series and may push 7 games tonight. Though this is not a unique situation for a player from a Finals team historically, it's the most stark example of it I can think of given their injuries. He's clearly the Most Valuable Player to his team or overall in the series so far.

That said, that's just not how this award is given out. By and large it simply goes to the best player on the winning team. I understand fans wanting to re-write the rules given the circumstances if GS does in fact win (and given the media narrative that this unfortunately has on the series, it might work), but there have been many occasions where the "MVP" of the series did not win.

A couple more things:

Curry's averaging 26/5/6 on nearly 60% TS, and played a huge role in all three wins. He's also turned up his play significantly since game 2, and seems to be hitting his standard MVP stride at this point.

If Lebron was able to keep up his Herculean efforts more so in the 2nd halves, was shooting higher than 35% outside of 1 feet, or was taking on a more significant defensive role, he'd have a more clear case imo. As is it's simply super high usage play at a high level. A younger version of him (say, Lebron in the Magic series) would be doing this on higher efficiency and would be capable of blowing by Iggy (which, he is consistently proving incapable of and settling for contested jumpers).

Amazing performance, but if Curry continues his ramped up play AND GS wins, I see no way how you could deny a ~27/6/6 player who is demanding a double team in virtually all situations (much, much more so than Bron as played) Finals MVP. If Curry is not in this series, then the series is already over. There's more than 1 commanding force out there.

Because he's not more "valuable" to his team. He's not more "valuable" in general. LeBron leads his team in literally every single category there is. That's value. He's infinitely more irreplaceable. Sure, that places criteria on the rest of the team, but Finals MVP is inherently a team-associated award.

It's always the problem with these awards -- both regular season and Finals: there's no criteria. I don't get why we still refer to it as "the most valuable" when that hasn't been the consensus for what we're awarding in forever.

Chronz
06-16-2015, 02:52 PM
I enjoy a lot of your posts, but there is no conceivable universe in which Jordan's supporting casts could ever be considered "superteams." Well, I suppose if you put jordan's teammates against the 60 and over club teams at your local YMCA.
Thats just nonsensical.


Trying to contextualize jordan's teammates within a specific era is an enormous stretch, at best, borderline outlandish. See that "hot chick" over there? Yeah, her. Yeah, HER. Yeah, she's missing a few teeth, has a muffin top and cankles, but compared to the meth addicts downtown?!? Smokin!
A stretch? Actually its downright necessary because without even attempting to account for league averages/trends, the comparison carries less weight. I disagree entirely with everything you've opined thus far.


Let's get down to specifics.

Rodman couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.
Im pretty sure nobody ever argued he was a dominant scorer.


He was a bizarre personality who only "fit" on the bulls because he was willing to accept Jackson and Jordan as alpha dogs. Not to mention, he needed stacked scorers like Jordan/Pip and his Pistons to even find a role in the first place.
I asked this question before, do we credit EVERYTHING Rodman could provide to his team to MJ and Phil all because they did a relatively good job at containing him? How much credit do you guys give Jack Haley, whos sole purpose on the team was to be his bff. LOL, at Rodman needing anything to display his dominance, its a symbiotic relationship, Rodman's teams needed what he brought just the same, check out his teams record with and without him even with your claims of stacked scoring.


Horace was never a 'freak.' A good to very good rebounder, and a good to very good post scorer, yes. A freak? No. He could've made a handful of all star teams at most on other teams as a 1st or 2nd option, but no one could consider him one of the elite tier athletes like iverson, vince carter, jordan, lebron, etc.
For what he did, there was nobody like him. His size and mobility was key to the pressure defense they could apply. Again, we're talking about peripheral players here.


Jordan had snipers in paxson and kerr, but again, they were effective with jordan drawing triple teams on a regular basis.
Which I already made note of. MJ drew triples for lots of guys, these 2 were the best at excelling in that role as far as deep reserves go.


Of course, you don't address how Jordan won with such "elite" freaks like a hobbled cartwright, or modestly coordinated bigs like luc longley and bill wennington. Nor, do you mention how far past his prime harp was. Or how soft and overrated kukoc was. Or, how often pip came up hobbled and limping in key games because of his back. And so it goes.
LOL, compared to most teams options at the same pecking order, those guys only illustrate their superior talent. Being overrated is not a criticism, because that depends entirely on what you have heard, the same player can be both overrated and underrated based on whatever subjective critique is said to someone, hes still the same player. What we can OBJECTIVELY identify is that he was one of the best 6th men of his era, the kind of guy who could nail a pressure shot in a big game. Why are you not mentioning Bison Dele? LOL thats what it sounds like to me. BTW, Bison Dele was influential enough of a player for guys on that 72 win and 69 win squads to choose the 69 win team in a playoff series.


Jordan singlehandedly willed a bunch of no-name desperado's like kerr and paxson and cartwright etc to 6 rings.
Not seeing why you would think that. Notice how you named deep reserves, ignore the presence of a truly unique player in Pippen and downgrade Kukoc as if that takes away from the benefit of having one of the best 6th men in the league.



You make it sound as if kerr and paxson and luc longley were a dream team. Unbelievable.
How did I make it "sound" that way?


The extent to which some posters will exaggerate for unknown reasons is really quite strange.
Ohh, finally something we can agree on. VERY strange.


Jordan is the greatest athlete ever. Period. Bron and Kobe are so far in his rear view mirror it's a joke.
Meh, hes the best but I disagree with your hyperbole.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-16-2015, 02:56 PM
This is an easy answer. Stephen Curry. LOL some of you are ridiculous sometimes.

Scoots
06-16-2015, 02:59 PM
i do not think that is fair at all. the cavs game plan is to "muck the game up" b/c they have a superior one on one 1/2 court player. this makes it harder for everyone to get good looks- that isn't Bron's fault

I wasn't "blaming" LeBron ... I was saying that he was playing the scheme magnificently and a side effect of that scheme is that his teammates are made to look worse than they are. But it's by design. The Warriors are very good at forcing turnovers and getting out on the break, they are good at forcing a team to speed up and make mistakes. By LeBron not passing the ball and grinding the clock they force a slower pace, don't expose the ball to steals or pressure. The healthy Cavs are their best defensive lineup and they are really good at D and bad at O so this scheme is really their best option, but it does make it hard for his teammates to perform offensively even to their normal level.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-16-2015, 03:10 PM
Iggy doesn't get bonus points just because he is defending Lebron James. Its not like he is shutting LBJ down or anything like that. Lebron is putting up 40 ppg this series. Not saying Iggy isn't have a good series, but lets put things into perspective here. This isn't Kawhi Leonard who outplayed Lebron last year and pretty much shut him down as much as you can shut a player of that caliber down. Lebron is doing his thing out there, so I'm sorry, Iggy doesn't get bonus points just because he is the one who has to try to defend him most of the time.

Curry is the most valuable player for the Warriors. He gets doubled teamed regularly and makes this offense go. He is doing well enough to still win this award.

What Lebron has done is impressive, but the he hasn't been very effecient and his team is about to lose. Not blaming him for either of these two things, but this doesn't make him a shoe in to win MVP. He either has to lead his team to a win or play better (shoot above 50%). He has two games to change my mind.

Jets012
06-16-2015, 03:24 PM
Iggy doesn't get bonus points just because he is defending Lebron James. Its not like he is shutting LBJ down or anything like that. Lebron is putting up 40 ppg this series. Not saying Iggy isn't have a good series, but lets put things into perspective here. This isn't Kawhi Leonard who outplayed Lebron last year and pretty much shut him down as much as you can shut a player of that caliber down. Lebron is doing his thing out there, so I'm sorry, Iggy doesn't get bonus points just because he is the one who has to try to defend him most of the time.

Curry is the most valuable player for the Warriors. He gets doubled teamed regularly and makes this offense go. He is doing well enough to still win this award.

What Lebron has done is impressive, but the he hasn't been very effecient and his team is about to lose. Not blaming him for either of these two things, but this doesn't make him a shoe in to win MVP. He either has to lead his team to a win or play better (shoot above 50%). He has two games to change my mind.

LeBron shot 56% when guarded by Kahwi last year, 35% when guarded by Iggy this year. You're underrating Iggys defensive impact. I have zero problem if Iggy balls out tonight, giving him the award if the Warriors win

kdspurman
06-16-2015, 03:38 PM
LeBron shot 56% when guarded by Kahwi last year, 35% when guarded by Iggy this year. You're underrating Iggys defensive impact. I have zero problem if Iggy balls out tonight, giving him the award if the Warriors win

I have to go check the #'s but idk if those are accurate or not, for Kawhi. (Unless you are looking @ his ending statline, cause in that case, that would be wrong to do) I know Lebron got far less shot attempts and even catches when Kawhi guarded him. He either didn't get the ball, or passed more times than not.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-16-2015, 03:40 PM
This is an easy answer. Stephen Curry. LOL some of you are ridiculous sometimes.

Yup, curry will hold up the MVP tonight

ManRam
06-16-2015, 03:47 PM
What Lebron has done is impressive, but the he hasn't been very effecient and his team is about to lose. Not blaming him for either of these two things, but this doesn't make him a shoe in to win MVP. He either has to lead his team to a win or play better (shoot above 50%). He has two games to change my mind.

If you aren't willing to "blame" him for those things than why are you willing to factor those two things in. Either they matter or they don't.

TylerSL
06-16-2015, 03:56 PM
If Golden State wins it's easily Steph Curry. Not just because of what he did in Game 5, but the only reason Iggy and Barnes have been able to do what they've been doing is because they are constantly WIDE open. They are so wide open because of how much attention Steph Curry demands from Cleveland's defense. If you go back and watch some of their scoring opportunities, they are wide open after Steph Curry brought two players from one side of the court to the other and the Warriors swing the ball back to them. Yes, they are the ones hitting their shots but make no mistake, Curry's presence is what is making it possible.

On top of that he's averaging 26/6 and is their star player. If the Warriors win, it has to be Curry.

Scoots
06-16-2015, 06:57 PM
I have to go check the #'s but idk if those are accurate or not, for Kawhi. (Unless you are looking @ his ending statline, cause in that case, that would be wrong to do) I know Lebron got far less shot attempts and even catches when Kawhi guarded him. He either didn't get the ball, or passed more times than not.

Good read on the subject http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy