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View Full Version : Could LeBron lose Finals and win Finals MVP?



mrblisterdundee
06-14-2015, 09:49 PM
I just heard Jeff Van Gundy comment how the NBA should give the Finals MVP to LeBron James after Game Five. What do you think?
Obviously if Cleveland wins, James gets it. But it's more likely they lose. In that case, could James become the second player after Jerry West to win Finals MVP on the losing team?
I think it's a good possibility, considering the load he's taken on with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love being out.

Yanks All Day
06-14-2015, 10:01 PM
He could, but I think the Finals MVP right now would and should be Andre Iguodala if the Warriors win. His play has been the series changer, and he's had to guard LeBron. That can't be overlooked.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 10:07 PM
How many times has this question been asked?

He's not going to win if they lose, with his current production.

flea
06-14-2015, 10:11 PM
Once again, yes it's very possible. IMO he's been the best player in the series, but Iggy has been close. This performance is way more deserving than last year's in spite of the statistical difference. Just shows people either don't watch the games or get too swayed by FG%. His team was stomped last year and he was a part of that.

He's been the best offensive player this series, even if he's had a lot of help defensively and on the boards. No comparison in the performances IMO. He should have been doing this last year, slowing the pace and working various areas of the court. He just couldn't because Leonard outplayed him and he could do nothing defensively.

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2015, 10:12 PM
Jerry West.

Hangtime
06-14-2015, 10:22 PM
How many triple dubs has this man had? I wouldn't be mad if Lebron did get it.

AntiG
06-14-2015, 10:35 PM
ala Jerry West 1969

AntiG
06-14-2015, 10:37 PM
He deserves it, maybe the most valuable performance in Finals history, win or lose

NYSpirit1
06-14-2015, 10:39 PM
Please.

Just put the LeBron GOAT talk to bed for the rest of time, rest of history. GOATs aren't 2-4 in the Finals to Jordan's 6-0, Kobe's 5-2, Duncan's 5-1, Shaq's 4-2, Magic's 5-4, Bird 3-2 or Russell's 11-?.

Just stop it. Out of all the legends, he has the worst Finals record by far. He's just a big choker and loser on the big stage.

LeBron basically is the guy who is an embarrassment to his talents. Sure you can make arguments for this year and 07, but he had no business losing in 2011 and 2014.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 10:43 PM
Even if he deserves it, he'll never get it.

AntiG
06-14-2015, 10:44 PM
who said he's GOAT?

NYSpirit1
06-14-2015, 10:45 PM
who said he's GOAT?

This entire forum and his entire fanbase.

Sofnr
06-14-2015, 10:48 PM
Naw. Awesome series from Lebron. Curry has also been great on the winning team. It goes to Curry.

KnicksorBust
06-14-2015, 10:53 PM
Just no. And enjoy mods merging a bunch of threads lol.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-14-2015, 10:55 PM
He should get it, but if Curry plays like he did in game 5 in the next two games and the Warriors win it all, there's no way he won't get it.

asandhu23
06-14-2015, 10:56 PM
No. Andre Iguodala deserves it.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 10:56 PM
Please.

Just put the LeBron GOAT talk to bed for the rest of time, rest of history. GOATs aren't 2-4 in the Finals to Jordan's 6-0, Kobe's 5-2, Duncan's 5-1, Shaq's 4-2, Magic's 5-4, Bird 3-2 or Russell's 11-?.

Just stop it. Out of all the legends, he has the worst Finals record by far. He's just a big choker and loser on the big stage.

LeBron basically is the guy who is an embarrassment to his talents. Sure you can make arguments for this year and 07, but he had no business losing in 2011 and 2014.
For a while, people argued Wilt was GOAT (who was 2-4) fresh after Jordan won his 6th.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 10:58 PM
Even if he deserves it, he'll never win since it will go to the winner.

If Warriors win, I'd give it to Iggy, unless Curry gets another game like this next game (or 2 if it goes to 7).

mngopher35
06-14-2015, 11:00 PM
I think he has been the most impressive player so far pretty easily but my guess would be they give it to Curry. I think Curry is a pretty popular player right now and this would help elevate him even more for the NBA.

kozelkid
06-14-2015, 11:04 PM
He has about as good of a case as anyone in recent history, as far as I'm concerned. I think he should win it. Don't overthink the award; it goes to the most valuable player. That player has easily been Lebron this series, not Curry.

NYSpirit1
06-14-2015, 11:04 PM
For a while, people argued Wilt was GOAT (who was 2-4) fresh after Jordan won his 6th.

Which is ridiculous, but at the same time did LeBron average 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? No. I think Wilt has a case for 2nd best ever.

LeBron is outside the top 10 right now - Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, The Big O, Julius Erving, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem easily ahead of him (and I'm probably missing a guy or two). That's 11 guys and would put LeBron at #12.

LeBron needs at least two more titles to move into the 5-8 range.

MagicBucsSox
06-14-2015, 11:07 PM
Which is ridiculous, but at the same time did LeBron average 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? No. I think Wilt has a case for 2nd best ever.

LeBron is outside the top 10 right now - Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, The Big O, Julius Erving, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem easily ahead of him (and I'm probably missing a guy or two). That's 11 guys and would put LeBron at #12.

LeBron needs at least two more titles to move into the 5-8 range.

Lmaoooo youve seen 4 of those guys play. And the names on that list ONLY WON WITH OTHER HOF'S ONTHEIR TEAM,you done?

NYSpirit1
06-14-2015, 11:10 PM
Lmaoooo youve seen 4 of those guys play. And the names on that list ONLY WON WITH OTHER HOF'S ONTHEIR TEAM,you done?

So LeBron didn't have Bosh and Wade on his team in 2011 and 2014? LeBron didn't have Love and Irving on his team to make it to this point?

Don't cry about 'help'. You're talking about a guy who handpicked his team in four year intervals. It came back to bite him because the Heat would've had a legitimate chance against these Warriors.

Big Zo
06-14-2015, 11:13 PM
Iggy for MVP!

Caesaleo
06-14-2015, 11:13 PM
I keep seeing 2-4 2-4 2-4... he's 2-5. If he loses Tuesday he'll be 2-6. GOAT with a 33% winning pct in the Finals? I'll keep my money on the real ballers who don't jump ship just to win a championship every couple years. Honestly I've gained much more respect for LeBron after watching these Finals, but stop comparing him to Jordan. If anything he's Magic Johnson. At the end of the day teams win championships. not players.

xnick5757
06-14-2015, 11:13 PM
Absolutely.

No Love/Kyrie and he still managed to win 2 games against an all time great team.

He's been hands down the best player on the court.

LakerShow
06-14-2015, 11:14 PM
:laugh2:

Not going to happen

LakerShow
06-14-2015, 11:15 PM
Iggy goat will get the mvp.

moshy2
06-14-2015, 11:15 PM
No. Andre Iguodala deserves it.

/thread

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 11:17 PM
Which is ridiculous, but at the same time did LeBron average 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? No. I think Wilt has a case for 2nd best ever.

LeBron is outside the top 10 right now - Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, The Big O, Julius Erving, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem easily ahead of him (and I'm probably missing a guy or two). That's 11 guys and would put LeBron at #12.

LeBron needs at least two more titles to move into the 5-8 range.

He played in an era where he would never put up those numbers though. You can't disqualify someone for not putting up numbers that he probably would have put up in the 1960s or numbers that Wilt would probably not have put up playing in other eras.

Not that I'm trying to say Lebron is GOAT, but he's being criticized for things that no one else is. He can't even get a foul without people complaining, even though Jordan got even more preferential treatment than Lebron gets.

Bostonjorge
06-14-2015, 11:18 PM
Already having James lose the series?

xnick5757
06-14-2015, 11:19 PM
He played in an era where he would never put up those numbers though. You can't disqualify someone for not putting up numbers that he probably would have put up in the 1960s or numbers that Wilt would probably not have put up playing in other eras.

+1

In Wilt's 50 PPG season he averaged 48.5 minutes and 40 shots per game (even 05 Kobe only took 27 shots a game)


impossible to compare

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 11:19 PM
Already having James lose the series?

This team is horse ****. They should have lost in 4 really.

Dade County
06-14-2015, 11:19 PM
Please.

Just put the LeBron GOAT talk to bed for the rest of time, rest of history. GOATs aren't 2-4 in the Finals to Jordan's 6-0, Kobe's 5-2, Duncan's 5-1, Shaq's 4-2, Magic's 5-4, Bird 3-2 or Russell's 11-?.

Just stop it. Out of all the legends, he has the worst Finals record by far. He's just a big choker and loser on the big stage.

LeBron basically is the guy who is an embarrassment to his talents. Sure you can make arguments for this year and 07, but he had no business losing in 2011 and 2014.

This is ridicules... You are not factoring in that he is a business man first, and his bosses had him the script.

#TheScriptThough

Kevj77
06-14-2015, 11:20 PM
Lebron has been the best player in the finals. The MVP will be from the winning team. When Jerry West won it was a similar situation in that respect. The difference is that was the first time the award had been given out. No disrespect to Lebron, but I don't think it will go to a player on the losing team ever again.

It's an award for the best player on the winning team now.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-14-2015, 11:20 PM
+1

In Wilt's 50 PPG season he averaged 48.5 minutes and 40 shots per game


impossible to compare

He could easily put up 30 and 15 in today's era or most other eras in his prime, but hte 50 PPG argument is a bit ridiculous.

Cal827
06-14-2015, 11:21 PM
Which is ridiculous, but at the same time did LeBron average 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? No. I think Wilt has a case for 2nd best ever.

LeBron is outside the top 10 right now - Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, The Big O, Julius Erving, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem easily ahead of him (and I'm probably missing a guy or two). That's 11 guys and would put LeBron at #12.

LeBron needs at least two more titles to move into the 5-8 range.

Based on what you were implying: there's absolutely nothing that a great player can do to justify a bad finals record. Chamberlain being up there with guys like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, and Shaq is an absolute joke. He was gifted with being about a foot taller and 100+ pounds bigger than his defenders :laugh2:

Also, what's the argument for Dr J to be over Lebron in your overall list? :laugh2: His NBA teams usually choked before even reaching the finals lol

joedaheights
06-14-2015, 11:21 PM
Which is ridiculous, but at the same time did LeBron average 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? No. I think Wilt has a case for 2nd best ever.

LeBron is outside the top 10 right now - Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, The Big O, Julius Erving, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem easily ahead of him (and I'm probably missing a guy or two). That's 11 guys and would put LeBron at #12.

LeBron needs at least two more titles to move into the 5-8 range.

No such case. You have to remember that back in 1961 the second biggest starter on most teams was 6'6". Think fast, other than Russell, can you name any centers from Russell's 50/25 season. In 65 you had Walt Bellamy, Willis reed and I want to say nate Thurmond. But before that?

I think you need to consider just how heavily favored wilts lakers were in 69 and 70. The way I describe wilt is this... You can tell me anything you want about his talents or stats or rule changes, but you can't explain why he lost series he had no business losing.

Caesaleo
06-14-2015, 11:24 PM
You guys should crowdfund for a little office where you can all get together and blow LeBron a couple of hours per week.

Cal827
06-14-2015, 11:27 PM
It's a shame that Jordan had stacked teams that allowed him to go 6-0. I'm not trying to argue how good he is, he probably is the best player of all time, but we (as a whole) could have have a legitimate conversation on the best players of all time, rather than looking at MJs titles, or the "Horry has 7 titles, does that mean he's a GOAT?" :laugh2:

I can say with full confidence, that if Jordan was on this Cleveland team in substitute for Lebron, that the title would be in Steph Curry's arms by now :laugh2:

bucketss
06-14-2015, 11:32 PM
iggy or lebron deserve it but steph will get it.


btw iggy > klay. i know its one series but klay looks like a one trick pony.

Mell413
06-14-2015, 11:33 PM
I think he has a case but I don't see it happening. This is a good opportunity to help make curry a bigger star.

blahblahyoutoo
06-14-2015, 11:52 PM
This team is horse ****. They should have lost in 4 really.

yet they've kept it close, even in the games they lost they were in it until the last minutes.

joedaheights
06-14-2015, 11:54 PM
It's a shame that Jordan had stacked teams that allowed him to go 6-0. I'm not trying to argue how good he is, he probably is the best player of all time, but we (as a whole) could have have a legitimate conversation on the best players of all time, rather than looking at MJs titles, or the "Horry has 7 titles, does that mean he's a GOAT?" :laugh2:

I can say with full confidence, that if Jordan was on this Cleveland team in substitute for Lebron, that the title would be in Steph Curry's arms by now :laugh2:

Jordan had stacked teams? Other than pippen and grant who qualifies as any good from 91-93.

Pippen was great. And similarly, Seth curry Is no magic, drexler or Barkley.

Why would jordan have lost by now? Are you telling me jordan, wade and bosh lose to dirk and a bunch of dudes

naps
06-14-2015, 11:56 PM
Which is ridiculous, but at the same time did LeBron average 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season? No. I think Wilt has a case for 2nd best ever.

LeBron is outside the top 10 right now - Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, The Big O, Julius Erving, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem easily ahead of him (and I'm probably missing a guy or two). That's 11 guys and would put LeBron at #12.

LeBron needs at least two more titles to move into the 5-8 range.

What a troll. PSD ia going because of posters like you. If I was a MOD, you sure as hell wouldn't exist here.

goingfor28
06-15-2015, 12:07 AM
What a troll. PSD ia going because of posters like you. If I was a MOD, you sure as hell wouldn't exist here.

:clap:

Raps18-19 Champ
06-15-2015, 12:13 AM
yet they've kept it close, even in the games they lost they were in it until the last minutes.

They've kept it close because of Lebron. It's a miracle it's been this close.

Gibby23
06-15-2015, 12:22 AM
iggy or lebron deserve it but steph will get it.


btw iggy > klay. i know its one series but klay looks like a one trick pony.

Klay isn't right since the knee to the head, but they need to bring him off Reggie Miller screens.

Gibby23
06-15-2015, 12:27 AM
No. Andre Iguodala deserves it.
Not after his garbage free throws

sheesh
06-15-2015, 12:30 AM
No because that would mean that LeBron's team lost.

IBleedPurple
06-15-2015, 12:36 AM
No. Andre Iguodala deserves it.Eh. I'd still go Curry.

THE MTL
06-15-2015, 12:40 AM
I'm voting for lebron for mvp. The guy is doing all he can do and playing historic basketball.

Cal827
06-15-2015, 12:42 AM
Jordan had stacked teams? Other than pippen and grant who qualifies as any good from 91-93.

Pippen was great. And similarly, Seth curry Is no magic, drexler or Barkley.

Why would jordan have lost by now? Are you telling me jordan, wade and bosh lose to dirk and a bunch of dudes

I meant on this Cleveland roster vs the Warriors. I think that GS would've had already found a way to shut him down if he were in the place of Lebron. Nope, Jordan probably doesn't lose to those Mavs, probably to the Spurs though :laugh2:

Also, I'm one of the few who really feel that Pippen's skills were vastly underrated. To me, the guy was Lebron, before Lebron lol. Smart player, excellent/versatile defender, and adapted his game to ensure that the team success was the primary focus. We saw the year Jordan went to baseball that he could lead the team (Pippen might've dragged that Bulls team to the Finals himself, if it weren't for some questionable incidents in the Knicks-Bulls series lol). He's fairly high on my top players of all time, so when I think of him on a team with Jordan, I automatically think stacked :laugh2:

Cal827
06-15-2015, 12:44 AM
Also, Vegas is probably gonna give Lebron an MVP trophy of their own. I can imagine the number of people who made large bets that this would be a very short series, especially after Irving got hurt :laugh2:

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 12:44 AM
he has literally had the greatest finals performance ever.

Gibby23
06-15-2015, 12:46 AM
he has literally had the greatest finals performance ever.

It is amazing though. Haven't seen that in my lifetime and that includes Jordan in the Finals

joedaheights
06-15-2015, 01:58 AM
I meant on this Cleveland roster vs the Warriors. I think that GS would've had already found a way to shut him down if he were in the place of Lebron. Nope, Jordan probably doesn't lose to those Mavs, probably to the Spurs though :laugh2:

Also, I'm one of the few who really feel that Pippen's skills were vastly underrated. To me, the guy was Lebron, before Lebron lol. Smart player, excellent/versatile defender, and adapted his game to ensure that the team success was the primary focus. We saw the year Jordan went to baseball that he could lead the team (Pippen might've dragged that Bulls team to the Finals himself, if it weren't for some questionable incidents in the Knicks-Bulls series lol). He's fairly high on my top players of all time, so when I think of him on a team with Jordan, I automatically think stacked :laugh2:

Well you kinda can't just write off the mavs loss as If you're saying "let me fly through this inconvenient part so I can get to my long winded good stuff."

It was a really bad loss that kinda disproves everything you're about.

Why would Jordan lose to Duncan's corpse? It's not like he ever had a top 25 player like wade and lost to dirk and Tyson chandler.

Jordan had a top 50 player in pippen and beat three teams in the nba finals who also had two top 50 players... 91 lakers, 97 jazz, 98 jazz. How many top 50 players who were anywhere near their prime did the spurs have?

You miss the important part of what mj does... Individual high efficiency scoring that creates shots so wide open that John Paxson could shoot 54.8% in 1991, leading all guards. Kobe needed Shaq and gasols help in that regard. Lebron needed wades help to a lesser extent.

Are you saying pippen helped mj in that regard?

Also please tell me who guards mj on this warriors team. Before you answer keep in mind that Dennis rodman in his more swing man days couldn't do it without two guys helping him.

You simply don't know what you think you know about a guy who averaged 31.2 PPG 55.8% FG and 11.4 APG in the same finals... Yes. All of that in ONE SERIES.

Supreme LA
06-15-2015, 02:33 AM
he has literally had the greatest finals performance ever.

I wouldn't say it's the greatest finals performance ever but the load he's carrying is very remarkable. He is certainly the only one deserving of the MVP trophy at this point during this Finals series.

Tony_Starks
06-15-2015, 02:53 AM
he has literally had the greatest finals performance ever.

It is amazing though. Haven't seen that in my lifetime and that includes Jordan in the Finals

Nah. Magic playing all 5 positions and putting up 42..15...7 as a rookie to win the chip with no Kareem was the greatest Finals performance ever.

What the Dream did to Shaq in the Finals should be up there somewhere as well, don't remember his numbers off top but I remember it was a spectacle to watch..,

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 03:05 AM
Nah. Magic playing all 5 positions and putting up 42..15...7 as a rookie to win the chip with no Kareem was the greatest Finals performance ever.

What the Dream did to Shaq in the Finals should be up there somewhere as well, don't remember his numbers off top but I remember it was a spectacle to watch..,

James has been playing different positions all series long and has had a worse team than magic while playing what is suppose to be one of the best teams ever and averging 39/12/9.... From a Usage stand point as well he is literally having the greatest performance ever.

That being Said I wont be mad if others want to put a 42/15/7 above James... Thats wow as well lol

IBleedPurple
06-15-2015, 03:07 AM
Nah. Magic playing all 5 positions and putting up 42..15...7 as a rookie to win the chip with no Kareem was the greatest Finals performance ever.That was one game though. Otherwise throughout that series, Kareem was the clear MVP. Just ended up he was hurt in the clincher, and Magic was legendary. IIRC, Kareem wasn't even at the game, which would be an awkward MVP ceremony.

Not a legendary series though compared to this Lebron Finals. Pains me to say it.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 03:09 AM
James had more points, rebounds or assists than anybody on either team. He played center, point guard and everywhere in between. The only thing James couldn't quite do was will the Cleveland Cavaliers to a victory in Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

PhillyFaninLA
06-15-2015, 04:43 AM
This entire forum and his entire fanbase.

The entire forum includes you

CityofChaos
06-15-2015, 04:55 AM
The Brazilian blur /end thread.

nastynice
06-15-2015, 05:57 AM
The Brazilian blur /end thread.

lol, say what u want, boy can get to the rack!!

QueensG_718
06-15-2015, 07:35 AM
Just no...stop it. "Most valuable player" just listen to those words. If he was the most valuable what value has he set because they still lost. You playing great and your team losing adds no value. A loss is a loss. This awards should go to curry or iggy period.

QueensG_718
06-15-2015, 07:36 AM
2-6

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 08:05 AM
What he's doing is historically awesome

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 08:21 AM
Jordan could play Jordan. Lebron is playing like 3 roles out there. So yes, absolutely he can and should.

PhillyFaninLA
06-15-2015, 08:31 AM
2-6

Say the words Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan or admit your argument is weak.

People that use titles to rank an individual don't have a clue about the game.




Titles are team accomplishments not individual. Generally speaking Lebron's title losses where to better teams, maybe the Mavs weren't better but to make 6 finals and for them to be competitive in the finals is nothing short of amazing. With the injuries team this has and the fact that with Lebron and serviceable players its been competitive is saying a lot.



If you want to talk rings, talk teams, if you want to talk players, talk players and not team accomplishments.

MagicBucsSox
06-15-2015, 08:32 AM
So LeBron didn't have Bosh and Wade on his team in 2011 and 2014? LeBron didn't have Love and Irving on his team to make it to this point?

Don't cry about 'help'. You're talking about a guy who handpicked his team in four year intervals. It came back to bite him because the Heat would've had a legitimate chance against these Warriors.
Bosh isnt HOF, and wade was always hurt. His only honest lost was vs dallas in 2011. 2007 he was alone, last yr in the finals he was alonr,this year hes alone

2-ONE-5
06-15-2015, 08:43 AM
I cant imagine a player that has shot 15-34, 7-22, 14-34, 11-35, and 18-38 winning finals MVP in a losing effort. come on now

KMackSackAttack
06-15-2015, 08:49 AM
Bosh isnt HOF, and wade was always hurt. His only honest lost was vs dallas in 2011. 2007 he was alone, last yr in the finals he was alonr,this year hes alone



Stop making excuses for the guy man smh!

And 2one5 I agree with you it's not that legendary when your shooting about 40% imagine if kobe was shooting that bad this forum would be bad mouthing kobe all over the place

JWO35
06-15-2015, 08:58 AM
How valuable can a player be if his team still loses?

Plus how are they going to present him the trophy if the Warriors are celebrating their win? Why would he even accept it, I could totally see LeBron turning the trophy down for a number of reasons if his team doesn't win the championship.

IMO it's too much of a risk on the NBA to give the finals MVP to a player on the losing team in today's game. Not saying he doesn't deserve it but it would be devaluing the trophy if LeBron accepts it(or don't) and gives some PC speech saying someone on the Warriors deserve it more.

bklynny67
06-15-2015, 11:00 AM
James had more points, rebounds or assists than anybody on either team. He played center, point guard and everywhere in between. The only thing James couldn't quite do was will the Cleveland Cavaliers to a victory in Game 5 of the NBA Finals.

Bahahahaha.... Get off his dick. He won't win it.

JordansBulls
06-15-2015, 01:03 PM
Not shooting 40% he won't and losing.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:20 PM
Whens the last time this was even open for debate from a losing player? That says plenty IMO.

sportsfanatic99
06-15-2015, 01:25 PM
Bahahahaha.... Get off his dick. He won't win it.

what's funny? all the haters are just brushing off these numbers because they can't comprehend. You won't even acknowledge how much Lebron effects the game and that they won two games because of his play.

he has a slight chance of winning it if this goes to game 7.

it is indeed a herculean effort by James but you are too blinded by the hate. when one player leads all other players in a points, rebounds and assists in finals series - that's consideration for Finals MVP and only if it goes to game 7 (which i hope it does - more games!)

i don't think he will win it - but he should be considered.

JordansBulls
06-15-2015, 01:27 PM
Whens the last time this was even open for debate from a losing player? That says plenty IMO.

2010. I remember them saying Kobe should still get finals mvp if LA lost to Boston. And he wasn't playing that great himself.

jason
06-15-2015, 01:31 PM
I think it would be funny to have Lebron come out after losing to get a finals MVP trophy

sportsfanatic99
06-15-2015, 01:32 PM
2010. I remember them saying Kobe should still get finals mvp if LA lost to Boston. And he wasn't playing that great himself.

there might have been consideration. but like you said, he didn't play well himself.

I think if Lebron ends the series leading all players in points, rebounds, and assists - that can def open a debate on who really was the most valuable player in the series.

Its not always the best player on the best team that wins regular season MVP but this series needs to go the distance and keeping it close the next two games for James to even sniff MVP .

Chronz
06-15-2015, 01:39 PM
2010. I remember them saying Kobe should still get finals mvp if LA lost to Boston. And he wasn't playing that great himself.

Whos them? Whats their argument because statistically, Pierce put up better numbers and KG was dominating defensively. Certainly NO WHERE near what Bron is doing right now.

apocalypse15
06-15-2015, 02:02 PM
Who would even want the Finals MVP if they lost? I wouldn't even accept it. I would carry it over to the MVP of the winning team, shake his hand and walk off the court. This isn't the All-Star game.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2015, 02:06 PM
He could totally win it if it wasn't such an awkward thing to have to present. I agree with others who say i wouldn't even want it, and i'm 100% sure lebron would be the first to say that too.

valade16
06-15-2015, 02:10 PM
He could totally win it if it wasn't such an awkward thing to have to present. I agree with others who say i wouldn't even want it, and i'm 100% sure lebron would be the first to say that too.

I think a Finals MVP going to a player on the losing team is just something of a bygone era, much like how a Kicker won the 1982 NFL MVP award.

Just something we'll never see again. It's too ingrained in our thought process that the most valuable player has to come from the winning team.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 03:10 PM
Whos them? Whats their argument because statistically, Pierce put up better numbers and KG was dominating defensively. Certainly NO WHERE near what Bron is doing right now.

NVM JB. I thought the Lakers lost that series. I remember that year much differently than you do. There was even talk about Pau deserving the MVP so its still not on the same stratosphere.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 03:11 PM
Who would even want the Finals MVP if they lost? I wouldn't even accept it. I would carry it over to the MVP of the winning team, shake his hand and walk off the court. This isn't the All-Star game.

I would take the award, just not publicly.

Scoots
06-15-2015, 04:44 PM
Could he? Yes.

Will he? Probably not.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 04:48 PM
Whens the last time this was even open for debate from a losing player? That says plenty IMO.

Last season when the Heat lost to the Spurs lol.

mngopher35
06-15-2015, 05:16 PM
Last season when the Heat lost to the Spurs lol.

Nah, that was a little bit different since the Spurs destroyed them when it was supposed to be a closer series (heat's defense just looked bad and they couldn't stop their great movement). I don't think anyone expected him to get FMVP last year even though he was the best player in the series, he wasn't carrying the same load.

This year it is totally different as he has been doing everything for a cavs team many thought would get swept and has a ridiculous stat line. I mean at this point in the series Lebron has scored or assisted 109/164 (66%) baskets for the cavs on a better overall efficiency than the rest of his team (and Curry who is below his teams average ortg for the series). I don't know if I have ever seen such an impressive losing effort from an individual in the finals which I definitely wasn't saying last year.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 05:37 PM
Nah, that was a little bit different since the Spurs destroyed them when it was supposed to be a closer series (heat's defense just looked bad and they couldn't stop their great movement). I don't think anyone expected him to get FMVP last year even though he was the best player in the series, he wasn't carrying the same load.

This year it is totally different as he has been doing everything for a cavs team many thought would get swept and has a ridiculous stat line. I mean at this point in the series Lebron has scored or assisted 109/164 (66%) baskets for the cavs on a better overall efficiency than the rest of his team (and Curry who is below his teams average ortg for the series). I don't know if I have ever seen such an impressive losing effort from an individual in the finals which I definitely wasn't saying last year.

I was half joking when I said that and do know that most logical fans weren't arguing that, though there were those attempting to make that argument believe me and I do remember it very clearly across many social media outlets.

As far as this year, it would be a complete slap to Curry's face to give Lebron finals MVP if Golden State does close this thing out. For a player on the losing team to win, it would have to be the perfect storm much like when West won his. Game 7 OT loss with Wilt going down in game 7 and clearly being the best player during the series with no player on the opposing team being a clear cut leader or dominant player which Curry is now proving he is. Also, shooting 39% (.48 TS%) with no real rim protector as Golden State has been going small is not indicative of what a finals MVP truly is. Not saying that this isn't discussion worthy, just saying that the stage is not set to have a finals MVP on a losing team in this particular situation based on the precedent which was set by Jerry West back in 1969. Lebron is clearly the best player on the court this series, just not the finals MVP. At this point.

mngopher35
06-15-2015, 05:51 PM
I was half joking when I said that and do know that most logical fans weren't arguing that, though there were those attempting to make that argument believe me and I do remember it very clearly across many social media outlets.

I didn't see much but I also didn't look around a ton either. I definitely believe you as there are plenty Lebron homers out there but ya I meant no one logical was making a fuss about it.


As far as this year, it would be a complete slap to Curry's face to give Lebron finals MVP if Golden State does close this thing out. For a player on the losing team to win, it would have to be the perfect storm much like when West won his. Game 7 OT loss with Wilt going down in game 7 and clearly being the best player during the series with no player on the opposing team being a clear cut leader or dominant player which Curry is now proving he is. Also, shooting 39% (.48 TS%) with no real rim protector as Golden State has been going small is not indicative of what a finals MVP truly is. Not saying that this isn't discussion worthy, just saying that the stage is not set to have a finals MVP on a losing team in this particular situation based on the precedent which was set by Jerry West back in 1969. Lebron is clearly the best player on the court this series, just not the finals MVP. At this point.

I'm not even sure Curry has been a ton better than Iggy so far this series (until last game). While Lebron hasn't been shooting well he has still had the most attention on him from the other team (either doubling or keeping someone in the paint) and had a much better defender on him (iggy>delly). On top of all of this Lebron's offensive efficiency has actually been better than Curry since he has 44 ast and 15 turns while Curry has 29 ast and 25 turns. So Lebron has an ortg of 106 (team average 99.5) while Curry has an ortg of 103 (team average 107) which takes into account their shooting.

Lebron has been on another level from anyone else this series and that isn't a slap in the face to Curry imo. To have this high of volume (because no one else can really create), all the defensive attention , and still be more efficient offensively overall is amazing and probably hasn't been done before. I can see someone claiming that he shouldn't win FMVP but then you are basically saying no one ever should in a losing effort which some do believe.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 06:23 PM
I didn't see much but I also didn't look around a ton either. I definitely believe you as there are plenty Lebron homers out there but ya I meant no one logical was making a fuss about it.



I'm not even sure Curry has been a ton better than Iggy so far this series (until last game). While Lebron hasn't been shooting well he has still had the most attention on him from the other team (either doubling or keeping someone in the paint) and had a much better defender on him (iggy>delly). On top of all of this Lebron's offensive efficiency has actually been better than Curry since he has 44 ast and 15 turns while Curry has 29 ast and 25 turns. So Lebron has an ortg of 106 (team average 99.5) while Curry has an ortg of 103 (team average 107) which takes into account their shooting.

Lebron has been on another level from anyone else this series and that isn't a slap in the face to Curry imo. To have this high of volume (because no one else can really create), all the defensive attention , and still be more efficient offensively overall is amazing and probably hasn't been done before. I can see someone claiming that he shouldn't win FMVP but then you are basically saying no one ever should in a losing effort which some do believe.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say that no one every should win. I agree with the time West won as I said. I would just have to see someone repeat that performance. Game 7 OT close loss while being the clear cut best on the floor. Though a case could be made for Hondo winning it that year. Wilt being injured in game 7 was also a factor that played in as well. I'm not really comparing Lebron to Curry at the moment as Lebron is clearly better... I'm comparing Lebron to West's performance in 1969.

Good point about Lebron's turnovers as well, he has been very careful with the ball this series. That should be factored in as well. Not a huge fans of assist numbers in factoring a players overall offense from an individual standpoint. Players don't have control of whether or not the players on their teams make their shots or not. I tend to focus on turnovers and usage and I will say that based on Lebron's usage of 41+ for him to have such a low turnover rate is indeed amazing.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 06:41 PM
Don't get me wrong, I didn't say that no one every should win. I agree with the time West won as I said. I would just have to see someone repeat that performance. Game 7 OT close loss while being the clear cut best on the floor. Though a case could be made for Hondo winning it that year. Wilt being injured in game 7 was also a factor that played in as well. I'm not really comparing Lebron to Curry at the moment as Lebron is clearly better... I'm comparing Lebron to West's performance in 1969.

Good point about Lebron's turnovers as well, he has been very careful with the ball this series. That should be factored in as well. Not a huge fans of assist numbers in factoring a players overall offense from an individual standpoint. Players don't have control of whether or not the players on their teams make their shots or not. I tend to focus on turnovers and usage and I will say that based on Lebron's usage of 41+ for him to have such a low turnover rate is indeed amazing.
You cant look at turnovers and ignore assists. Those are the very reason most turnovers transpire, from either the inability to make the pass or failing to pass off to begin with. Those turnovers and offensive rebounds influence efficiency and pace of play. And if anyone is getting an inordinate amount of bad shooting around him for those assists, Im pretty sure its Bron, so that only enhances his case IMO. Those assists still put points up on the board.

Vee-Rex
06-15-2015, 06:56 PM
To the OP:

It all depends on whether or not people believe it's cool to give the MVP to the losing team. It only happened once, so some don't believe you should and others do.

A. If you (general) believe it's cool to give the MVP to someone on the losing team, what better situation is there than the current? LeBron has literally done it all for a depleted Cavs team and has outperformed every other player in the finals.

B. If you (general) believe it's not cool to give the MVP to someone on the losing team, then no, LBJ shouldn't get it. It's a respectable viewpoint. Why should someone who lost take it? You can play well but if you don't win you're missing out on the ultimate prize.

I don't mind much what happens, though I tend to side with team B on this one. If LeBron took home the MVP while losing the finals I wouldn't punch my woman either, though.

giantspwn
06-15-2015, 06:57 PM
If Curry plays to his normal ability such as game 5, the award is his.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 07:05 PM
You cant look at turnovers and ignore assists. Those are the very reason most turnovers transpire, from either the inability to make the pass or failing to pass off to begin with. Those turnovers and offensive rebounds influence efficiency and pace of play. And if anyone is getting an inordinate amount of bad shooting around him for those assists, Im pretty sure its Bron, so that only enhances his case IMO. Those assists still put points up on the board.

Really? So driving to the hoop and getting stripped never happens?

I'm not saying not to look as assists at all, just to take into context what goes into it. I feel that based on Lebron's usage, the fact that his turnovers are so low speaks much higher volumes about his performance than his assist to turnover ratio.

Tony_Starks
06-15-2015, 07:18 PM
The one time this occurred was basically a glitch in the matrix. Never will happen again, never should happen again.

Speaking of the Matrix, why isn't.....ahh never mind!

2-ONE-5
06-15-2015, 07:49 PM
Curry is averaging 26ppg he will win it. i want to re-iterate that James has missed entirely too many shots to even be considered and i dont care how much of a load he has handled.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 07:57 PM
Really? So driving to the hoop and getting stripped never happens?
Says who? Its why I said MOST, theres a reason we have assist-turnover rates(check out most players high assist seasons, they tend to come with their most turnover prone seasons). Theres also the argument that getting stripped is still a knock on not making the proper read. Live ball turnovers are the most damaging.


I'm not saying not to look as assists at all, just to take into context what goes into it.
So long as you're not suggesting we ignore the efficiency of them. The contextual factors seem to only enhance the value of his assists in this scenario.

Chronz
06-15-2015, 08:02 PM
Curry is averaging 26ppg he will win it. i want to re-iterate that James has missed entirely too many shots to even be considered and i dont care how much of a load he has handled.

Your idea of basketball efficiency is outdated. Bron is making plays for the TEAM at a more efficient rate than anyone else, usage cannot be ignored or solely penalized.

JordansBulls
06-15-2015, 08:03 PM
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-james-may-go-down-as-the-greatest-loser-ever/


(To a certain extent, this also speaks to what can happen between Games 5 and 7 of a series between closely matched teams.) In 2011, Dwyane Wade — then James’s teammate on the Miami Heat — outplayed Dirk Nowitzki to a greater extent than James has outplayed presumptive Warriors MVP candidate Stephen Curry4 thus far yet still lost the award to the Dallas Mavericks star. So as great as James has been, it might not be enough to justify the award if Cleveland loses the series.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 09:10 PM
Says who? Its why I said MOST, theres a reason we have assist-turnover rates(check out most players high assist seasons, they tend to come with their most turnover prone seasons). Theres also the argument that getting stripped is still a knock on not making the proper read. Live ball turnovers are the most damaging.

There are many reasons for a turnover, not just simply a failed pass attempt. Offensive foul, three in the key, dribble ball off your foot, trip and fall, get stripped on the way to the hole (as I already explained), get stripped anywhere on the court, get your shot blocked etc. The point is, the more the ball is in your hands, the more you are at risk to turn the ball over which is why I measure turnover % next to a players usage rating for a more accurate assessment than their assist to turnover ratio. Not all turnovers are passes you see. Very difficult to tell how many are really, it varies from player to player and system to system. You're probly right though as it's mostly on arrant pass attempts overall, but not the majority as you are implying. If I had to guess, I'd say about 60/40 overall depending on the player or system 70/30 at most. I don't really see how you can make a statement that live ball turnovers are the most damaging. Don't all turnovers have the same result anyways? Here is a question for you: Do you consider arrant shot attempts that have no chance of going in as turnovers? What about a point blank missed dunk on a break away attempt?


So long as you're not suggesting we ignore the efficiency of them. The contextual factors seem to only enhance the value of his assists in this scenario.

In today's NBA the emphasis on the three point shot is far greater and as a result, there are a plethora of greater shooters available. Therefore the game has changed and so have offenses to center around the 3 point shot. In only 5 games, the Cleveland Cavaliers in this finals have taken a far greater amount of three's than Jordan's Bulls took in 6 games of the 93 finals (thought I would carry a bit of our debate from the other thread over for this example). Meaning, that it is now easier to record an assist in the sense that far lesser fouls occur on three point attempts than in the post or on the wing. As you well know, when a player is fouled the player who passed them the ball gets no credit for the assist even if the player makes their free throws or not despite the fact that he set up a play that got his team points none the less. If they go ahead and change the rules to credit players for passing to fouled players (as these passes are more difficult to make in the first place and generally result in higher percentage looks anyways) then I will agree that assists are just as valuable as made baskets. Until then they are skewed in my eyes. Oh and credit players for hockey assists as well then we can really talk.

andy2518
06-15-2015, 09:12 PM
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-james-may-go-down-as-the-greatest-loser-ever/

Great example. You really nailed it. No one made a big deal when it was Wade.

2-ONE-5
06-15-2015, 09:23 PM
Your idea of basketball efficiency is outdated. Bron is making plays for the TEAM at a more efficient rate than anyone else, usage cannot be ignored or solely penalized.

that doesnt make him MVP in a losing effort. there is o being penalized here, he is LOSING while shooting 39% he simply doesnt deserve it when all things are considered. TO give it to James in a loss is simply penalizing Curry for not being used at an insane rate. 26/6/5 on 45% shooting is certainly deserving for Curry and those numbers will pro be raised after game 6 is won

Kevj77
06-15-2015, 09:33 PM
The one time this occurred was basically a glitch in the matrix. Never will happen again, never should happen again.

Speaking of the Matrix, why isn't.....ahh never mind!Not to mention that when Jerry West won the award it was the first time they named a Finals MVP. There was no tradition it was brand new. I'm of the opinion that this award should go to the most valuable player on the winning team. Regardless of if he was the best player in the series.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 09:59 PM
Your idea of basketball efficiency is outdated. Bron is making plays for the TEAM at a more efficient rate than anyone else, usage cannot be ignored or solely penalized.

spot ****ing on.

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 10:00 PM
that doesnt make him MVP in a losing effort. there is o being penalized here, he is LOSING while shooting 39% he simply doesnt deserve it when all things are considered. TO give it to James in a loss is simply penalizing Curry for not being used at an insane rate. 26/6/5 on 45% shooting is certainly deserving for Curry and those numbers will pro be raised after game 6 is won

but he isnt MOST VALUABLE.... Without curry they still win this series... WithOUT James this is a sweep with all 4 wins by 20 or more points.

LA_Raiders
06-15-2015, 10:23 PM
Los JVG is stupid. MVP goes to the best player, and the best player WINS...

More-Than-Most
06-15-2015, 10:47 PM
Los JVG is stupid. MVP goes to the best player, and the best player WINS...

best player doesnt win... best team wins

Tony_Starks
06-15-2015, 10:51 PM
The one time this occurred was basically a glitch in the matrix. Never will happen again, never should happen again.

Speaking of the Matrix, why isn't.....ahh never mind!Not to mention that when Jerry West won the award it was the first time they named a Finals MVP. There was no tradition it was brand new. I'm of the opinion that this award should go to the most valuable player on the winning team. Regardless of if he was the best player in the series.


I agree. If your most valuable effort results in your team losing the series I'm afraid it wasn't valuable enough in my book.

Scoots
06-16-2015, 01:06 AM
I think people will resist giving the award to the losing team regardless of everything else.

More-Than-Most
06-16-2015, 01:18 AM
I agree. If your most valuable effort results in your team losing the series I'm afraid it wasn't valuable enough in my book.

So then rename it MVPOAWT award

PowerHouse
06-16-2015, 02:21 AM
Lebron does have a solid case but I think its just become too much of a tradition giving it to a player from the winning team, I dont even know what would sway the voters away from that. Maybe if the series goes 7 and LBJ goes off for 45+ in each of the last two? I mean Shaq didnt win it in '04 even though he was the best player on either team, same for Dr. J in '82.

nastynice
06-16-2015, 02:39 AM
but he isnt MOST VALUABLE.... Without curry they still win this series... WithOUT James this is a sweep with all 4 wins by 20 or more points.

Ur getting caught up in semantics IMO. A precedent has been set, it is what it is. It's like refs letting a game be played rough all game, then arguing for a foul late in the game because it falls under the written definition, it doesn't matter cuz a precedent had been set. Finals MVP has come from the winning team almost 50 straight yrs, there's no way the actual best player was always on the winning team, but like I said, because of the precedent no one cares.

Precedent.

Kevj77
06-16-2015, 03:31 AM
Precedent has been set it hasn't gone to a player from the losing team since 1969 the first year Finals MVP was awarded. It has gone to the MVP of the winning team since 1970. I've notice something I never thought I'd see here since the start of the finals, some Lebron fans are attacking the legacy of MJ with the stacked team argument.

I never thought I'd see the day that happened on PSD.

ThePlayoffs
06-16-2015, 03:59 AM
So then rename it MVPOAWT award

I think that regardless of who is the most valuable the award will go to the winning team... Its kinda just giving LeBron constellation for him losing.

If he scored 40+ in game 4 I might think LeBron is deserving but the 20 twenty he scored killed the Final MVP hopes for LeBron.

Also if anyone should win the MVP award on the Warriors (Assuming they win) it should be Andre. If he was not doing what he is right now the Warriors would not be in any sort of position to win the finals.

jerellh528
06-16-2015, 04:18 AM
I feel like when Westbrook was putting up massive 40+ points/triple double games earlier this year, people were ripping him to shreds for usage, efficiency, and putting up massive stats on a team with no kd. Now Lebron is doing similar, just less efficient and it's being hailed as the best finals ever by some. I just wish Lebron fans were more consistent with their thoughts when judging Lebron vs other players. With that being said, I don't think a fmvp should ever go to the losing player. Can you imagine going up to receive your prize when you and your teammates should be at the very least, extreamly disappointed and sad. It sets a bad precedent by the NBA. It's the equivalent to little leaguers passing out trophys to every participant.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 04:20 AM
I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about on this that we need 3-4 threads.

He's not going to win it most likely simply because of tradition (however false it might be). The words 'Finals Most Valuable Players' speak for themselves and anyone watching knows Lebron has been the most valuable person on the court. However, the FMVP has magically turned into the idea that its the most valuable person on the winning team.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 04:21 AM
I feel like when Westbrook was putting up massive 40+ points/triple double games earlier this year, people were ripping him to shreds for usage, efficiency, and putting up massive stats on a team with no kd. Now Lebron is doing similar, just less efficient and it's being hailed as the best finals ever by some. I just wish Lebron fans were more consistent with their thoughts when judging Lebron vs other players. With that being said, I don't think a fmvp should ever go to the losing player. Can you imagine going up to receive your prize when you and your teammates should be at the very least, extreamly disappointed and sad. It sets a bad precedent by the NBA. It's the equivalent to little leaguers passing out trophys to every participant.

What are you talking about? Westbrook got more MVP votes than he's ever had because of his production. Also not sure it was just "Lebron fans" who were ripping Westbrook, even though ripping Westbrook for that is false. And handing out awards on losing teams happen quite a lot. Check the MLBand NBA.

ThePlayoffs
06-16-2015, 04:23 AM
I feel like when Westbrook was putting up massive 40+ points/triple double games earlier this year, people were ripping him to shreds for usage, efficiency, and putting up massive stats on a team with no kd. Now Lebron is doing similar, just less efficient and it's being hailed as the best finals ever by some. I just wish Lebron fans were more consistent with their thoughts when judging Lebron vs other players. With that being said, I don't think a fmvp should ever go to the losing player. Can you imagine going up to receive your prize when you and your teammates should be at the very least, extreamly disappointed and sad. It sets a bad precedent by the NBA. It's the equivalent to little leaguers passing out trophys to every participant.

Westbrooks team was better than the cavs rn to be fair.

nastynice
06-16-2015, 04:24 AM
I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about on this that we need 3-4 threads.

He's not going to win it most likely simply because of tradition (however false it might be). The words 'Finals Most Valuable Players' speak for themselves and anyone watching knows Lebron has been the most valuable person on the court. However, the FMVP has magically turned into the idea that its the most valuable person on the winning team.

Actually it's always been like that save the first year it was introduced. So if anything, the losing team player winning it would actually be the magical turn of events.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 04:26 AM
Ur getting caught up in semantics IMO. A precedent has been set, it is what it is. It's like refs letting a game be played rough all game, then arguing for a foul late in the game because it falls under the written definition, it doesn't matter cuz a precedent had been set. Finals MVP has come from the winning team almost 50 straight yrs, there's no way the actual best player was always on the winning team, but like I said, because of the precedent no one cares.

Precedent.

It really doesn't make sense to continue a tradition that's honestly wrong. The idea of not giving it to a guy who deserves it just because tradition says so is lacking with the times.

jerellh528
06-16-2015, 04:30 AM
It really doesn't make sense to continue a tradition that's honestly wrong. The idea of not giving it to a guy who deserves it just because tradition says so is lacking with the times.

Do you think Davis or Westbrook should've won MVP this year?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 04:31 AM
Actually it's always been like that save the first year it was introduced. So if anything, the losing team player winning it would actually be the magical turn of events.

Not so much magic. Just keeping up with the times.

If I think Lebron has been the best player, why would I not say he's the FMVP.

If someone actually thinks Lebron, by definition, has been the most valuable player, but doesn't vote him as FMVP simply because there's a tradition, then they are lacking with the times.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 04:33 AM
Do you think Davis or Westbrook should've won MVP this year?

Nope, because Curry created more value for the Warriors than the others did for their team. If Warriors were say a 59 win team or thunder/pels win more to close the gap, I consider the other guys more. Though I am easily not opposed to doing things like say voting a non playoff team as the mvp ( a non playoff team player hasn't deserved on but quite a few have lacked votes when they should have had more.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 04:37 AM
If the Cavs were swept here and the games were blowouts or not competitive for the most part but Lebron puts up the same or better numbers, then he shouldn't be voted as FMVP. But its been a close series (outside game 4 in the 4th) and the reason its been close and that they actually won 2 games is because of Lebron.

PhillyFaninLA
06-16-2015, 04:58 AM
Hypothetical question and off topic (mods take this down if you wish):


If Cleveland wins tonight, Lebron has 2 more triple doubles with 40+ points, and games 7 goes double overtime and whichever team wins does so by 1 point in a highly competitive well executed game.....where does this series rank all time.

Kevj77
06-16-2015, 05:37 AM
Since we are talking hypothetical situations let me ask a question. Lets say this is the Super Bowl not the NBA finals. If the game ended 12-10 and all points by the winning team were scored by the kicker, including a 50 yard FG. Would you give MVP to the kicker or to the best every down defensive player of the game?

My money is on a defensive player. Someone from the losing team isn't winning Finals MVP. A kicker isn't winning SB MVP over an every down player even if they would have lost the game without him.

nastynice
06-16-2015, 05:57 AM
Not so much magic. Just keeping up with the times.

If I think Lebron has been the best player, why would I not say he's the FMVP.

If someone actually thinks Lebron, by definition, has been the most valuable player, but doesn't vote him as FMVP simply because there's a tradition, then they are lacking with the times.

I'd say it IS keeping with the times, as the times have already dictated that FMVP come from winning teams. Maybe can say that they aren't keeping up with the strict definition of "most valuable player", maybe mucking it up based on results. I'm ok with the accepted definition, I wouldn't want it to change. You and others obviously feel different, guess we'll find out either tomorrow or on fri if the league wants to set a new precedent or not.

Lebron HAS been the best player on the court, no doubt about that. I just don't think that's enough to win FMVP

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 06:06 AM
I'd say it IS keeping with the times, as the times have already dictated that FMVP come from winning teams. Maybe can say that they aren't keeping up with the strict definition of "most valuable player", maybe mucking it up based on results. I'm ok with the accepted definition, I wouldn't want it to change. You and others obviously feel different, guess we'll find out either tomorrow or on fri if the league wants to set a new precedent or not.

Lebron HAS been the best player on the court, no doubt about that. I just don't think that's enough to win FMVP

Not keeping up with the times meaning they are sticking to a concept that's flawed.

The prupsoe of the FMVP is to give it to the player who's been the most valuable in the finals. Thats the real definition they created it. Its been falsely adapted to be shifted to believe that the winning team should have it, even if it defeats the core purpose of the award, which is to give it to the best player.

Nowhere does it say that the FMVP goes to the winning team only. Its really just an unwritten rule that's preventing people to accept that a player on the worse team should win it, which is pretty stupid. Using a criteria (of giving it to the winning team) that isn't really there (since nowhere does it say it has to go to the winning team) takes away from the true, original and core meaning of the award. I mean if you want to go with the "accepted" definition, sure. But its not the right definition.

Hell, maybe they have stuck to the real definition the whole time and have given it to the most valuable player each time and they just so happen to all be from the winning team (but 1969). We suddenly going to not continue that part of it (of giving to the best player) so we can continue the "give it to the winning team" trend instead just because that's how we have falsely understood it to be (that they were giving to the best player on the best team only by design)?

And while we're on the topic, I'd like to see an example where they have given it to the best player. For all we know, they have been giving it to the best player and they just so happen to be on the winning team.

nastynice
06-16-2015, 06:32 AM
I guess, I personally find it to be stupid to give it to someone from the losing team. There's a reason its always given to the winning team, and I agree with that 100%. If Curry goes ballistic and James ***** the bed the next two games, yet cavs win, no way a gs player should get it. Because it doesn't matter, this game is about winning, if you lose the series that means you were as valuable to your team as the mascot. It makes no difference.

*still tho, my point isn't to start trying to define what "valuable" means, just that the award should serve a purpose, and that purpose is to give a little something extra to reward the champs, give a little something extra to the champ who did the most for his squad. And I value that over what anyone accepted FMVP definition is.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 06:42 AM
Game might be about winning, but that's not what the purpose of the FMVP is about. It wasn't created to give it only to the winners.

I mean there's certainly some sense in giving it to the best player on the winning team, but that's not what it was created for. If they changed the meaning to best player on the winning team, then you can focus on the Warriors and other winning teams only.

JasonJohnHorn
06-16-2015, 07:12 AM
There is something to be said for the fact that (low shooting percentage aside), LBJ is averaging more points, more rebounds, and more assists than anybody on GSW's roster.

And the shooting percentage is understandable given that the Warriors only have one guy to guard, so there is far more pressure on James defensively than there would be if he were playing with Love and Irving on the floor with him.

nastynice
06-16-2015, 07:14 AM
Game might be about winning, but that's not what the purpose of the FMVP is about. It wasn't created to give it only to the winners.

I mean there's certainly some sense in giving it to the best player on the winning team, but that's not what it was created for. If they changed the meaning to best player on the winning team, then you can focus on the Warriors and other winning teams only.

but what makes you say that? If we got 45+ straight mvps and counting from the winning team, doesn't that kinda suggest that maybe it IS what its for?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 07:27 AM
but what makes you say that? If we got 45+ straight mvps and counting from the winning team, doesn't that kinda suggest that maybe it IS what its for?

Not at all. The purpose of the FMVP is to reward the best player and they showed that with West. . It just so happens they happen to be on the winning team after West. Just because they were all on the winning team doesn't mean they were rewarded the FMVP simply because they won.

It may be more likely that the person who performs the best happens to be on the winning team, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to be on the winning team to be the most valuable.

2-ONE-5
06-16-2015, 08:19 AM
but he isnt MOST VALUABLE.... Without curry they still win this series... WithOUT James this is a sweep with all 4 wins by 20 or more points.

how can you prove they win without Curry? Im not so sure about that either anyway. To me valuable translates to winning. How valuable is shooting 7-22 or 14-34 or 11-25 while losing the series?

Jamiecballer
06-16-2015, 08:25 AM
I feel like when Westbrook was putting up massive 40+ points/triple double games earlier this year, people were ripping him to shreds for usage, efficiency, and putting up massive stats on a team with no kd. Now Lebron is doing similar, just less efficient and it's being hailed as the best finals ever by some. I just wish Lebron fans were more consistent with their thoughts when judging Lebron vs other players. With that being said, I don't think a fmvp should ever go to the losing player. Can you imagine going up to receive your prize when you and your teammates should be at the very least, extreamly disappointed and sad. It sets a bad precedent by the NBA. It's the equivalent to little leaguers passing out trophys to every participant.
Westbrook got ripped because "mine" has always been his MO. It's never been Lebron's. Besides I would argue he is garnering more respect from the hero crowd in this series for his scoring. Fans that respect his game are just marveling that he's added that burden to all the other great things he does on the court.

thenaj17
06-16-2015, 08:29 AM
I cant imagine a player that has shot 15-34, 7-22, 14-34, 11-35, and 18-38 winning finals MVP in a losing effort. come on now

Bit harsh on his overall performance level as he is playing superb but he isn't shooting that well to be fair, especially from deep

2-ONE-5
06-16-2015, 09:27 AM
maybe but its not Curry's fault he doesnt have the same usage, he still having a strong series as well with numbers certainly deserving of MVP and could/should add to them tonight

bklynny67
06-16-2015, 09:34 AM
that doesnt make him MVP in a losing effort. there is o being penalized here, he is LOSING while shooting 39% he simply doesnt deserve it when all things are considered. TO give it to James in a loss is simply penalizing Curry for not being used at an insane rate. 26/6/5 on 45% shooting is certainly deserving for Curry and those numbers will pro be raised after game 6 is won

but he isnt MOST VALUABLE.... Without curry they still win this series... WithOUT James this is a sweep with all 4 wins by 20 or more points.

Everyone should stop arguing with this fool. Can't win this argument against Lebrons mother. She'll stick up for him no matter what.

2-ONE-5
06-16-2015, 09:50 AM
Everyone should stop arguing with this fool. Can't win this argument against Lebrons mother. She'll stick up for him no matter what.

haahahah careful he will report you

sportsfanatic99
06-16-2015, 10:51 AM
Everyone should stop arguing with this fool. Can't win this argument against Lebrons mother. She'll stick up for him no matter what.

yet you aren't offering a differing argument. he def beats you in any argument you had (didn't have) in this thread thus far.

JordansBulls
06-16-2015, 04:24 PM
If the Cavs were swept here and the games were blowouts or not competitive for the most part but Lebron puts up the same or better numbers, then he shouldn't be voted as FMVP. But its been a close series (outside game 4 in the 4th) and the reason its been close and that they actually won 2 games is because of Lebron.

picc wrote:
I have no complaints about Lebron this series. I don't like that it took Lebron James shooting poorly for the love affair with efficiency to dwindle, but offensively he's doing everything you could reasonably ask. Its easy to say "he's shooting badly" but really only against Iguodala, who makes him take terribly tough shots and has done an INCREDIBLE job of staying in front of a player who is as fast as a guard in addition to as strong as a center. Lebron has found his 3-point touch again, he's immediately posting smaller players, and his courtvision has been stellar when doubled or forced baseline. From a critical standpoint I haven't watched the games with anyone rooting for Cleveland and yet we all agree on one thing, that there isn't anything to say.

I don't blame him for not guarding the splash brothers (even though he did take Klay for a couple possessions last night) because they need every ounce of his energy for offense and the Cavs defensive players are good enough to not require him to.

But that's something we should remember when juggling his finals performance, that even though Lebron is doing everything for these Cavs offensively, and doing it well, it's still not amounting to much. Their offense with him is bad, and their offense without him on the court is dreadful. But the number of minutes they spend without him is minimal.

The Cavs defense has given one of the most underrated finals performances we've seen, and although Lebron is doing his job in every respect he isn't the reason the games have been so closely contested...its that the GS offense had been for the most part deactivated. And Lebron has not really been a reason for it.

Shumpert has created the most live-ball turnovers in the series. Mozgov all but vaporized Green. The Cavs have taken 16 more FGA's than the Warriors in large part due to T.T., and in low scoring games like we've had that's a pretty big deal. They've also minimized Curry's on-ball game most of the series. The Cavs have outplayed GS in 3 out of 5 starting positions largely due to Lebron being one of them, and defense in the others.

That's why James doesn't have to guard the splash brothers even if he has the ability to. With Klay, Shumpert is more than enough to take him (or any other guard) out of his comfort zone, and the way they gang-defend Curry it almost doesn't matter who is assigned to him. James is best used on the weak side, where he can focus on rebounding or contesting, not to mention the aforementioned fatigue factor.

I don't agree with the narrative that his cast is garbage though. Purely offensively, yes. But there are two ends of the court and they have played better than anyone in the playoffs on the other one. If they can keep the contests to around 90, there's no reason to be surprised an all-time great player can keep the games competitive. But more credit should be acknowledged to not just the Cavs defense, but to David Blatt for his defensive orchestration.

JordansBulls
06-16-2015, 04:38 PM
If LeBron were to accept the MVP wouldn't it alienate his teammates? GSW win the chip, Lebron gets MVP and the rest of the Cavs walk out as losers. That doesn't seem right to me.

jason
06-16-2015, 05:03 PM
Good post JordanBulls. I just don't understand how most people are ignore big amount of missed shots. I would like know how many missed shots from Lebron turned into GSW points. Other than that Lebron has been great but if Curry has another game like yesterday and wins he will be MVP

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-16-2015, 05:04 PM
It is unfair to praise LBJ in this year's finals and also trash on AI for what he did during most of his time with the 76ers or what Westbrook was doing this year. Same applies to Melo in previous seasons.

No offensive help, get a ton of usage, put up huge numbers, score at an ineffecient rate, lose. That isn't dominance. It is admirable, but it isn't dominance and losing admirably doesn't get you MVP.

The real story of this year's NBA finals is the help Lebron has received on the other end of the floor and how the Cavs have been able to limit GSW's impressive offense. And part of this is how they have doubled Curry early and often throughout this series as well. But it seems the sleeping giant has waken up. Curry is getting his now and if he keeps it up and Golden State wins, he'll get the MVP and deservedly so. Iggy is a close second, but he doesn't have the impact that Curry has overall. Iggy doesn't command constant double teams. He is just hitting his good looks... those good looks that are there because Curry is drawing all the attention while Klay is being defended by the Cav's best perimeter defender.

But yeah, the Cavs are loaded on D right now and that is half the game. So, Lebron isn't doing this all by himself. I still don't think they win this series with Love and Kyrie to be honest.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 05:05 PM
picc wrote:
I have no complaints about Lebron this series. I don't like that it took Lebron James shooting poorly for the love affair with efficiency to dwindle, but offensively he's doing everything you could reasonably ask. Its easy to say "he's shooting badly" but really only against Iguodala, who makes him take terribly tough shots and has done an INCREDIBLE job of staying in front of a player who is as fast as a guard in addition to as strong as a center. Lebron has found his 3-point touch again, he's immediately posting smaller players, and his courtvision has been stellar when doubled or forced baseline. From a critical standpoint I haven't watched the games with anyone rooting for Cleveland and yet we all agree on one thing, that there isn't anything to say.

I don't blame him for not guarding the splash brothers (even though he did take Klay for a couple possessions last night) because they need every ounce of his energy for offense and the Cavs defensive players are good enough to not require him to.

But that's something we should remember when juggling his finals performance, that even though Lebron is doing everything for these Cavs offensively, and doing it well, it's still not amounting to much. Their offense with him is bad, and their offense without him on the court is dreadful. But the number of minutes they spend without him is minimal.

The Cavs defense has given one of the most underrated finals performances we've seen, and although Lebron is doing his job in every respect he isn't the reason the games have been so closely contested...its that the GS offense had been for the most part deactivated. And Lebron has not really been a reason for it.

Shumpert has created the most live-ball turnovers in the series. Mozgov all but vaporized Green. The Cavs have taken 16 more FGA's than the Warriors in large part due to T.T., and in low scoring games like we've had that's a pretty big deal. They've also minimized Curry's on-ball game most of the series. The Cavs have outplayed GS in 3 out of 5 starting positions largely due to Lebron being one of them, and defense in the others.

That's why James doesn't have to guard the splash brothers even if he has the ability to. With Klay, Shumpert is more than enough to take him (or any other guard) out of his comfort zone, and the way they gang-defend Curry it almost doesn't matter who is assigned to him. James is best used on the weak side, where he can focus on rebounding or contesting, not to mention the aforementioned fatigue factor.

I don't agree with the narrative that his cast is garbage though. Purely offensively, yes. But there are two ends of the court and they have played better than anyone in the playoffs on the other one. If they can keep the contests to around 90, there's no reason to be surprised an all-time great player can keep the games competitive. But more credit should be acknowledged to not just the Cavs defense, but to David Blatt for his defensive orchestration.

For the most part, all the work the Cavs offense are putting in defensively, it is negated because they are terribly garbage offensively.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 05:10 PM
It is unfair to praise LBJ in this year's finals and also trash on AI for what he did during most of his time with the 76ers or what Westbrook was doing this year. Same applies to Melo in previous seasons.

No offensive help, get a ton of usage, put up huge numbers, score at an ineffecient rate, lose. That isn't dominance. It is admirable, but it isn't dominance and losing admirably doesn't get you MVP.

The real story of this year's NBA finals is the help Lebron has received on the other end of the floor and how the Cavs have been able to limit GSW's impressive offense. And part of this is how they have doubled Curry early and often throughout this series as well. But it seems the sleeping giant has waken up. Curry is getting his now and if he keeps it up and Golden State wins, he'll get the MVP and deservedly so. Iggy is a close second, but he doesn't have the impact that Curry has overall. Iggy doesn't command constant double teams. He is just hitting his good looks... those good looks that are there because Curry is drawing all the attention while Klay is being defended by the Cav's best perimeter defender.

But yeah, the Cavs are loaded on D right now and that is half the game. So, Lebron isn't doing this all by himself. I still don't think they win this series with Love and Kyrie to be honest.

Even if you don't think he is dominant, he's still been the "Most Valuable Player" in the finals, which is literally what the ward is.

bklynny67
06-16-2015, 05:12 PM
Everyone should stop arguing with this fool. Can't win this argument against Lebrons mother. She'll stick up for him no matter what.

yet you aren't offering a differing argument. he def beats you in any argument you had (didn't have) in this thread thus far.

You obviously haven't read this thread. Plenty of people on here have already destroyed her argument. No sense in me adding to it anymore.

If the Warriors win, Curry will rightfully be named MVP rather than giving it to someone averaging 40 pts on 40 and barely shooting 40%

Hawkize31
06-16-2015, 05:28 PM
A lot of people have a problem with a player on the losing team winning Finals MVP.
But I don't really. I think of it this way:

If you swapped Lebron for Curry, GSW would win in 4.
If you swapped Lebron for Iguodala, GSW would win in 4.
But the Cavs with Lebron have won 2 games, despite 2 possible Finals MVPs (Curry and Iguodala) being on his opponent's team.

I have no idea how you could make the case for Curry or Iguodala being more valuable to their team that James was to his team.

Vee-Rex
06-16-2015, 06:22 PM
A lot of people have a problem with a player on the losing team winning Finals MVP.
But I don't really. I think of it this way:

If you swapped Lebron for Curry, GSW would win in 4.
If you swapped Lebron for Iguodala, GSW would win in 4.
But the Cavs with Lebron have won 2 games, despite 2 possible Finals MVPs (Curry and Iguodala) being on his opponent's team.

I have no idea how you could make the case for Curry or Iguodala being more valuable to their team that James was to his team.

This is true, however...

The NBA has redefined what MVP means. In the finals? The most valuable player between both teams is definitely LeBron. But for the NBA, MVP usually means best player on the winning team. That goes for regular season MVP as well as finals.

Scoots
06-16-2015, 06:22 PM
I don't think anybody is making the case that any player is giving his team more "value" than LeBron. Just that the payoff of "value" is wins and if player B wins twice as many games as player A then how can you give a "value" award to player A?

I think it should go to LeBron, I don't think it will if it ends tonight.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2015, 09:55 PM
If they lost today but he kept his averages, he should win. If he plays at a lower level than what he was averaging the past 5 games, then he can't win.