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Jeffy25
06-14-2015, 05:40 AM
You get to name one guy as the best player of that decade

A decade would count as the 99-00 season through the 08-09 season for example


50's - Dolph Schayes
60's - Wilt Chamberlain
70's - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
80's - Bird and Magic (Moses Malone should get some credit though)
90's - Jordan (Robinson and Malone deserve some credit, simply because Jordan missed some years, Jordan obviously was the most dominant)
00's - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, and Garnett are all basically equal
10's so far - LeBron

jerellh528
06-14-2015, 05:52 AM
50s- too young to know for sure (Mikan?)
60s- wilt
70s- Kareem
80s- Bird/magic
90s- Jordan
00s- Bryant
10- James and kd are basically equal

Shlumpledink
06-14-2015, 06:00 AM
Hakeem and David Robinson deserve 90s love if Garnett and Dirk are getting 00s love

Minimal
06-14-2015, 07:37 AM
50's - Neil Johnston
60's - Wilt Chamberlain
70's - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
80's - Magic Johnson
90's - Michael Jordan
00's - Shaquille O'Neal
10's - LeBron James

lamzoka
06-14-2015, 07:38 AM
50s.... ?
60s... ?
70s... Kareem A Jabaar
80s... Bird and Magic
90s... The Goat
00s... Shaq and Duncan
10s... Lebron

Dade County
06-14-2015, 08:17 AM
80's Magic
90's Mj, Stern & Refs
00's Shaq then Timmy then Kobe
10's Lbj

xxplayerxx23
06-14-2015, 08:19 AM
50s- too young to know for sure (Mikan?)
60s- wilt
70s- Kareem
80s- Bird/magic
90s- Jordan
00s- Bryant
10- James and kd are basically equal


Lebron And KD equal lol
Also 00s is Duncan to me

Teufelshunde4
06-14-2015, 08:32 AM
You get to name one guy as the best player of that decade

A decade would count as the 99-00 season through the 08-09 season for example


50's - Dolph Schayes
60's - Wilt Chamberlain
70's - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
80's - Bird and Magic (Moses Malone should get some credit though)
90's - Jordan (Robinson and Malone deserve some credit, simply because Jordan missed some years, Jordan obviously was the most dominant)
00's - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, and Garnett are all basically equal
10's so far - LeBron

Even though MJ didn't win any championships in 80's he was the most dominate player of the decade by far.

It can be argue Magic won at least 2 of his MVP awards simply because he had better teammates then MJ.

MonroeFAN
06-14-2015, 09:21 AM
00s- Bryant
10- James and kd are basically equal

Ah you're cute.

<---cop
06-14-2015, 09:52 AM
50's - Schayes
60's - Russell
70's - Abdul-Jabbar
80's - Magic
90's - Jordan
00's - Kobe
10's - James

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 12:55 PM
well, so many players are kind of excluded from this list, because their rise and fall came in the middle of decades (Shaq for example). LeBron will probably fall under this, or I guess potentially could, this was the first year of this decade I didn't think he was the best player all year, but if he ends up owning half the years and nobody has more than a year or two, I guess it's his decade for example.

60-Wilt
70-KAJ
80-Magic
90-Jordan
00-Duncan
10-James

The 80's, and 00's have some competition for #1, but I went with Magic/Duncan personally.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 01:00 PM
Even though MJ didn't win any championships in 80's he was the most dominate player of the decade by far.

It can be argue Magic won at least 2 of his MVP awards simply because he had better teammates then MJ.

Jordan may have been the best individual player ending the 80's, but he also missed half of it basically. This thread question credits HOF'ers that just happened to be rookies late in a decade, and hit their prime for a solid decade, and it hurts players who came in early or mid decade, so their primes overlap decades. It's why Shaq isn't on any list (or shouldn't be) for example. He wasn't dominant until the 2nd half of the 90s, and the first half of the 00's. Those other half decades matter in this thread.

Sadds The Gr8
06-14-2015, 01:00 PM
well, so many players are kind of excluded from this list, because their rise and fall came in the middle of decades (Shaq for example). LeBron will probably fall under this, or I guess potentially could, this was the first year of this decade I didn't think he was the best player all year, but if he ends up owning half the years and nobody has more than a year or two, I guess it's his decade for example.

60-Wilt
70-KAJ
80-Magic
90-Jordan
00-Duncan
10-James

The 80's, and 00's have some competition for #1, but I went with Magic/Duncan personally.

this would be my list.

Alan Shore
06-14-2015, 02:11 PM
60-Wilt
70-KAJ
80-Magic
90-Jordan
00-Duncan
10-James

Hard to disagree with this. Could add Bird to 80s, Russell to 60s or Shaq/Kobe to 00s.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 02:38 PM
60-Wilt
70-KAJ
80-Magic
90-Jordan
00-Duncan
10-James

Hard to disagree with this. Could add Bird to 80s, Russell to 60s or Shaq/Kobe to 00s.

Russell over Wilt? That would mean you are weighing team success at far too high a rate. Wilt was pretty easily the best player of that decade.

basch152
06-14-2015, 02:48 PM
You get to name one guy as the best player of that decade

A decade would count as the 99-00 season through the 08-09 season for example


50's - Dolph Schayes
60's - Wilt Chamberlain
70's - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
80's - Bird and Magic (Moses Malone should get some credit though)
90's - Jordan (Robinson and Malone deserve some credit, simply because Jordan missed some years, Jordan obviously was the most dominant)
00's - Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, and Garnett are all basically equal
10's so far - LeBron

Robinson and Malone deserve credit but not Olajuwon?

I'd take Olajuwon over both of them without even thinking twice.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-14-2015, 02:53 PM
50s- too young to know for sure (Mikan?)
60s- wilt
70s- Kareem
80s- Bird/magic
90s- Jordan
00s- Bryant
10- James and kd are basically equalhaha plus one

mngopher35
06-14-2015, 02:56 PM
well, so many players are kind of excluded from this list, because their rise and fall came in the middle of decades (Shaq for example). LeBron will probably fall under this, or I guess potentially could, this was the first year of this decade I didn't think he was the best player all year, but if he ends up owning half the years and nobody has more than a year or two, I guess it's his decade for example.

60-Wilt
70-KAJ
80-Magic
90-Jordan
00-Duncan
10-James

The 80's, and 00's have some competition for #1, but I went with Magic/Duncan personally.

This is how I see it as well. Shout out to Bird/Kobe but I would have the same guys you had for each decade.

I think Shaq and maybe even west could make the list if you started halfway through decades as you said. I think the only people who potentially can make it no matter where you start would be Jordan, Kareem, and maybe Lebron (depends on the next 4 seasons).

flea
06-14-2015, 03:08 PM
60s - Wilt, solid argument for Russell
70s - Kareem, no other solid argument but Clyde and Barry deserve mentions
80s - Bird, solid argument for Magic
90s - Jordan, solid argument for Dream
00s - Duncan, solid argument for Kobe
10s - Lebron, could end up with solid argument for Durant or Davis

FraziersKnicks
06-14-2015, 03:14 PM
60's - Wilt
70's - Kareem
80's - Bird/Magic
90's - MJ
00's - Duncan
10's - LeBron

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 03:41 PM
60s - Wilt, solid argument for Russell
70s - Kareem, no other solid argument but Clyde and Barry deserve mentions
80s - Bird, solid argument for Magic
90s - Jordan, solid argument for Dream
00s - Duncan, solid argument for Kobe
10s - Lebron, could end up with solid argument for Durant or Davis

yeah man, KAJ destroyed the 70s haha. ROY, Finals MVP, 5 MVP's, 6 time 1st team all NBA

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 03:43 PM
60s - Wilt, solid argument for Russell
70s - Kareem, no other solid argument but Clyde and Barry deserve mentions
80s - Bird, solid argument for Magic
90s - Jordan, solid argument for Dream
00s - Duncan, solid argument for Kobe
10s - Lebron, could end up with solid argument for Durant or Davis

goes back to what I was saying though. Davis? No way, the decade is half over before he starts entering the convo. LeBron already has 4 seasons as the best, and with this year, and the next couple where he can still enter the argument, it's tough for anyone else. Durant would be the only shot, he would have to establish himself for 3 more years as the clear cut best player in this decade to make it an argument.

Because of the parameters of the question, there are some greats who won't make these lists.

flea
06-14-2015, 03:53 PM
goes back to what I was saying though. Davis? No way, the decade is half over before he starts entering the convo. LeBron already has 4 seasons as the best, and with this year, and the next couple where he can still enter the argument, it's tough for anyone else. Durant would be the only shot, he would have to establish himself for 3 more years as the clear cut best player in this decade to make it an argument.

Because of the parameters of the question, there are some greats who won't make these lists.

I agree it will likely end up Lebron with Durant having the best shot (because of age), but if Davis does something crazy like win 2 or 3 MVP awards and 2 or 3 FMVP awards then he has to receive some consideration. I think Davis and Lebron are both the sorts of player who are going to be much better in his athletic prime (24-28) than he is after that - and each of them will play a significant part of the decade outside of their athletic prime.

asandhu23
06-14-2015, 05:17 PM
50s: Bob Pettit / Bob Cousy
60s: Wilt Chamberlain / Jerry West
70s: Kareem Abdul Jabbar / Rick Barry
80s: Larry Bird / Magic Johnson
90s: Michael Jordan
00s: Kobe Bryant / Tim Duncan
10s: LeBron James

Bruno
06-14-2015, 05:41 PM
Wilt
KAJ
Bird
Jordan
Bryant
James

this debate is always unfair for a guy like Shaq, whos dominance was split in between two decades.

Bruno
06-14-2015, 05:45 PM
goes back to what I was saying though. Davis? No way, the decade is half over before he starts entering the convo. LeBron already has 4 seasons as the best, and with this year, and the next couple where he can still enter the argument, it's tough for anyone else. Durant would be the only shot, he would have to establish himself for 3 more years as the clear cut best player in this decade to make it an argument.

Because of the parameters of the question, there are some greats who won't make these lists.

I mean if Davis were to end the decade on a threepeat or end the decade as its leader in PER, WS/48, titles or finals MVPs, AND LBJ saw an injury or drop off in play from 2017 onwards it could be a discussion. even LBJs highest statistical peak is from last decade, 2009. ridiculously uphill battle for Davis and I agree if anyone would do it its Durant.

ThePlayoffs
06-14-2015, 05:56 PM
60's: Wilt
70's: KAJ
80's:Bird
90's: Jordan
00's:Kobe
10's:LeBron

andy2518
06-14-2015, 06:12 PM
80's Magic
90's Mj, Stern & Refs
00's Shaq then Timmy then Kobe
10's Lbj

So Stern and the refs helped out Jordan but not Lebron? Come on man.

andy2518
06-14-2015, 06:19 PM
Wilt
KAJ
Bird
Jordan
Bryant
James

this debate is always unfair for a guy like Shaq, whos dominance was split in between two decades.

I remember the last time this was brought up some guy was trying to convince me that Lebron was the best of the 2000-2009 decade even though he only played about half and didn't even reach the conversation for best in the NBA until like 09-10. Pretty crazy stuff right. Anyways, anytime you have these debates, it's always odd that one must restrict for a ten year gap. Really doesn't mean much to me because of this.

Bruno
06-14-2015, 07:18 PM
its interesting once we split the decades. mine would probably look like this.

60-64: Wilt
65-69: Wilt
70-74: KAJ
75-79: KAJ
80-84: Moses
85-89: Bird
90-94: MJ
95-99: MJ
00-04: Shaq
05-09: Kobe
10-14: LeBron


For the 2000's, Ill buy an argument that Shaq was the best from 2000-2004, that Kobe was the best from 2005-2009, and that Duncan was the best throughout.

MJ, Wilt, and KAJ, are the three GOATs so its not a shock that they're perhaps the best on both half of their prime decades.

PowerHouse
06-14-2015, 07:19 PM
50s - Neil Johnston
60s - Stilt
70s - KAJ
80s - Magic/Bird
90s - MJ
00s - Kobe
10s - LBJ

mrblisterdundee
06-14-2015, 07:33 PM
1950s: Dolph Schayes
1960s: Wilt Chamberlain
1970s: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1980s: Magic Johnson
1990s: Michael Jordan
2000s: Tim Duncan
2010s: LeBron James

ThePlayoffs
06-14-2015, 08:58 PM
Bill Russel anyone?

Dade County
06-14-2015, 09:16 PM
So Stern and the refs helped out Jordan but not Lebron? Come on man.

Of course Jordan & stern helped out Lbj... The jordan super star foul all, helped out each and every star that came after his air'ness.


It's a long damn list man. Why would you have to just target Lbj?

If Jordan had to play against the same rules they he dominated with, he'll foul out & try to fight a ref. This is in NO way saying that Jordan wasn't amazing as ****. But him winning 6 rings and NO losses. lol

flea
06-14-2015, 09:21 PM
Of course Jordan & stern helped out Lbj... The jordan super star foul all, helped out each and every star that came after his air'ness.

To listen to some of the LeBoners around here you'd think Lebron deserves to shoot FTs on every possession he's able to get an angle.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 09:25 PM
I mean if Davis were to end the decade on a threepeat or end the decade as its leader in PER, WS/48, titles or finals MVPs, AND LBJ saw an injury or drop off in play from 2017 onwards it could be a discussion. even LBJs highest statistical peak is from last decade, 2009. ridiculously uphill battle for Davis and I agree if anyone would do it its Durant.

no argument there, I only mean, you are using an "if" argument, versus a "it actually happened" argument is all.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2015, 09:27 PM
Bill Russel anyone?

but why? Cause his ridic stacked team win a ton of rings? He was a great player, but was by no means in Wilt's level.

valade16
06-15-2015, 09:22 AM
I've noticed people saying like there is an argument for Hakeem or he deserves some mention for the 90's. No, he doesn't. MJ is so far ahead of anyone else in the 90's it's ridiculous. Hakeem was the best player of the 90's for 2 seasons, the 2 MJ missed, MJ was the best player for 6 seasons. MJ leaving in 98 is irrelevant to this comparison because at that point Hakeem was a shell of himself.

There is no argument to be made for anyone in the 90's other than MJ.

flea
06-15-2015, 10:29 AM
I've noticed people saying like there is an argument for Hakeem or he deserves some mention for the 90's. No, he doesn't. MJ is so far ahead of anyone else in the 90's it's ridiculous. Hakeem was the best player of the 90's for 2 seasons, the 2 MJ missed, MJ was the best player for 6 seasons. MJ leaving in 98 is irrelevant to this comparison because at that point Hakeem was a shell of himself.

There is no argument to be made for anyone in the 90's other than MJ.

I think Hakeem has a decent argument for greatest player ever - just like a handful of other guys. Only if you worship at the altar of MJ do you think he is far and away a better player for the decade. He didn't play for 3 seasons (4 if you include 99-00 as part of the decade) in the decade and was merely among the best in the league from 96-98, rather than the clear-cut best he was from 90-93. Hakeem had worse teams and by the time he had solid teammates they were old and his back was problematic.

valade16
06-15-2015, 11:10 AM
I think Hakeem has a decent argument for greatest player ever - just like a handful of other guys. Only if you worship at the altar of MJ do you think he is far and away a better player for the decade. He didn't play for 3 seasons (4 if you include 99-00 as part of the decade) in the decade and was merely among the best in the league from 96-98, rather than the clear-cut best he was from 90-93. Hakeem had worse teams and by the time he had solid teammates they were old and his back was problematic.

He was far and away the better player for the decade. Hakeem averaged over 20 PPG 7 times in the 90's, MJ 6 times (7 if you count his 17 games in 95). Barely more.

Hakeem never led the league in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, or VORP in the 90's. Not once. MJ led the league in those categories multiple times in the 90's.

Hakeem made 3 NBA 1st teams in the 90's
MJ made 6 NBA 1st teams

Hakeem made 2 Defensive 1st teams in the 90's
MJ made 6 Defensive 1st teams in the 90's

Hakeem won 2 titles in the 90's
MJ won 6

Hakeem won 1 MVP and 2 FMVP in the 90's
MJ won 4 MVPs and 6 FMVP in the 90's

Seriously, what is your argument that Hakeem was the better player for that Decade? It seems to me you're argument is "MJ was the clear cut better player in the 90's longer than Hakeem, but not as long as you think".

Statistically MJ dominates. Awards wise MJ dominates. Winning MJ dominates. So what is your argument?

flea
06-15-2015, 11:17 AM
Wait did you list those awards because you think they matter or...?

Okay so MJ has more defensive awards than Dream - does anyone really think MJ was a better defensive player than Dream? He is one of the 3 or so best defensive players ever to play the game. MJ was one of the better defensive guards but in terms of overall impact he probably doesn't even crack the top 25 of greatest defensive players of the game.

Anyway I listed Jordan ahead of him anyway, but Hakeem definitely has an argument in my mind. At his peak you could argue he was as good as Jordan offensively and miles better defensively. List all the offensive stats you want, they were essentially created to show that MJ was the best. Comparing a 2-way big and a wing is going to take a lot more discussion than awards, and I'm not sure this thread is the place for that.

valade16
06-15-2015, 11:24 AM
Wait did you list those awards because you think they matter or...?

Okay so MJ has more defensive awards than Dream - does anyone really think MJ was a better defensive player than Dream? He is one of the 3 or so best defensive players ever to play the game. MJ was one of the better defensive guards but in terms of overall impact he probably doesn't even crack the top 25 of greatest defensive players of the game.

Anyway I listed Jordan ahead of him anyway, but Hakeem definitely has an argument in my mind. At his peak you could argue he was as good as Jordan offensively and miles better defensively. List all the offensive stats you want, they were essentially created to show that MJ was the best. Comparing a 2-way big and a wing is going to take a lot more discussion than awards, and I'm not sure this thread is the place for that.

I'm asking what matters? Rings don't seem to matter. Stats don't seem to matter. Awards don't seem to matter. So far as I can tell, the only thing that matters is Flea's almighty opinion...

You cannot argue Hakeem was as good as MJ offensively. You just can't.

His peak PPG was 27.8. He averaged over 26 PPG 4 times. He shot 52.2% FG during that time with a high of 52.9%. His TS% during that time was 56.6% and his high was 57.7%.

Jordan, in just the 90's averaged over 30 PPG as many times as Hakeem averaged over 26. During his first 3-peat Jordan averaged 51.7% FG and had a high of 53.9% FG. His TS% was 58.2% and his high was over 60%.

He shot more efficiently than Hakeem while scoring more and assisting more. So how on earth could anyone argue Hakeem was as good offensively?

So my question is, do stats matter? Because if not I'm having a real hard time figuring out what does matter outside your opinions...

SLY WILLIAMS
06-15-2015, 11:38 AM
but why? Cause his ridic stacked team win a ton of rings? He was a great player, but was by no means in Wilt's level.

I was watching a documentary on the championship winning Knicks teams. In it Michael Rappaport (age 45) told 2 different people (an award winning hoops writer & Cazzie Russell) that Bill Russell was the most overrated player. Both guys laughed at that notion. One guy said just when I started to think you might know something about basketball you say that. I personally feel Russell used to be a bit over rated as well (when people would rank him 1-3 ) BUT I think the pendulum may have turned a bit because there are so many folks that just look at stats and never saw him play.

flea
06-15-2015, 12:11 PM
I'm asking what matters? Rings don't seem to matter. Stats don't seem to matter. Awards don't seem to matter. So far as I can tell, the only thing that matters is Flea's almighty opinion...

You cannot argue Hakeem was as good as MJ offensively. You just can't.

Rings and individual stats do matter to me, they are just not everything. Rings because the playoffs are about matchups - which doesn't just mean what teams matchup but how individual players matchup. I think more often than not, the greatest players are winning it all multiple times in their career - especially in the FA era. I also like to look at team stats because sometimes individual stats obscure a player's greatness. EG Dirk had incredibly good offenses basically every year in the league, but definitely in his prime, in spite of good but not great offensive teammates. I think his impact sometimes gets understated, even though he put up fine individual stats. To my mind, Bird, Dirk, and MJ are the 3 best offensive players ever. I could see someone putting KAJ or Magic in there, but I wouldn't. TBF I haven't really seen a lot of KAJ's athletic prime though - just the stacked Lakers years.

Hakeem had some poor teams for a while but he also had good ones late and early, so I hold some of his postseason failures against him - especially being one and done 4 straight times in his prime (even if 2 were to the stacked Lakers). I don't really hold the 86 Finals against him, the only team I think that could have beaten that team was the 14 Spurs. Hakeem generally had very good defensive teams, but his ability and the moments had sway my opinion on that end.

Offensively he was unguardable in his prime. Maybe it was "only" 56% TS but I think people put way too much stock in that. He was the only real threat on his team until 1995 and he was deadly from 15 feet and in. Back to the basket hooks, baseline spins, running hooks, face-up jumpers, face-up drives, fadeaways, he did it all. His footwork is legendary because it was so hard to beat. His only real offensive weakness was passing, where he was merely adequate or maybe good. Of course Shaq had a higher FG%, he couldn't do anything beyond 5 or 6 feet - even when nobody was defending him. Hakeem's squad swept Shaq's Orlando team, which was a good veteran squad outside of Shaq/Penny and an overall better team probably (this was the same team that beat Jordan's Bulls, albeit with Grant switching sides).

MJ was a lesser version in the later part of the decade, I don't think it's crazy to think 94-96 Hakeem compares offensively with MJ from 95-97 (since he was whiffing at baseball in 94). Here are the playoff stats for those:

MJ: 31/6.5/4.5 with 1.8 steals on 46% FG/31% 3pt/48% eFG (47 games)
Hakeem: 29.8/11.4/4.4 with 1.5 steals and 3.7 blocks on 52% FG/52.6% eFG (57 games)

BTW that is not cherry picking, take 96-98 if you want and the stats are worse for MJ. Both were great, both were very comparable in that period - one had a great team.

basch152
06-15-2015, 12:14 PM
He was far and away the better player for the decade. Hakeem averaged over 20 PPG 7 times in the 90's, MJ 6 times (7 if you count his 17 games in 95). Barely more.

Hakeem never led the league in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, or VORP in the 90's. Not once. MJ led the league in those categories multiple times in the 90's.

Hakeem made 3 NBA 1st teams in the 90's
MJ made 6 NBA 1st teams

Hakeem made 2 Defensive 1st teams in the 90's
MJ made 6 Defensive 1st teams in the 90's

Hakeem won 2 titles in the 90's
MJ won 6

Hakeem won 1 MVP and 2 FMVP in the 90's
MJ won 4 MVPs and 6 FMVP in the 90's

Seriously, what is your argument that Hakeem was the better player for that Decade? It seems to me you're argument is "MJ was the clear cut better player in the 90's longer than Hakeem, but not as long as you think".

Statistically MJ dominates. Awards wise MJ dominates. Winning MJ dominates. So what is your argument?

Lol, this is why I hate people.

I wouldn't argue Hakeem over MJ, but it's not nearly as far off as you think.

But my big problem with your little list is your 1st all pro, and defensive first team comparison.

Hakeem was competing with Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo for those spots.

Jordan was competing with who at SG?

YAALREADYKNO
06-15-2015, 12:55 PM
50s- too young to know for sure (Mikan?)
60s- wilt
70s- Kareem
80s- Bird/magic
90s- Jordan
00s- Bryant
10- James and kd are basically equal

Lebron and KD equal? Tf

YAALREADYKNO
06-15-2015, 12:57 PM
Lol, this is why I hate people.

I wouldn't argue Hakeem over MJ, but it's not nearly as far off as you think.

But my big problem with your little list is your 1st all pro, and defensive first team comparison.

Hakeem was competing with Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo for those spots.

Jordan was competing with who at SG?
Rolando Blackman, joe dumars, Reggie miller just to name a few lol

basch152
06-15-2015, 01:45 PM
Rolando Blackman, joe dumars, Reggie miller just to name a few lol

David Robinson, shaq, ewing, and probably mourning are all better than any of those players...

The competition isn't even remotely close.

valade16
06-15-2015, 01:46 PM
Lol, this is why I hate people.

I wouldn't argue Hakeem over MJ, but it's not nearly as far off as you think.

But my big problem with your little list is your 1st all pro, and defensive first team comparison.

Hakeem was competing with Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo for those spots.

Jordan was competing with who at SG?

I see. One minor point of contention among a litany of reasons of why MJ > Hakeem in the 90's is enough for you to hate me.

Would it help if I said I don't give a **** about the 1st Defensive teams then? I'm sorry 1 out of the 100 reasons MJ was better than Hakeem didn't pass your inspection.

Care to address the other 99?

valade16
06-15-2015, 01:54 PM
Rings and individual stats do matter to me, they are just not everything. Rings because the playoffs are about matchups - which doesn't just mean what teams matchup but how individual players matchup. I think more often than not, the greatest players are winning it all multiple times in their career - especially in the FA era. I also like to look at team stats because sometimes individual stats obscure a player's greatness. EG Dirk had incredibly good offenses basically every year in the league, but definitely in his prime, in spite of good but not great offensive teammates. I think his impact sometimes gets understated, even though he put up fine individual stats. To my mind, Bird, Dirk, and MJ are the 3 best offensive players ever. I could see someone putting KAJ or Magic in there, but I wouldn't. TBF I haven't really seen a lot of KAJ's athletic prime though - just the stacked Lakers years.

Hakeem had some poor teams for a while but he also had good ones late and early, so I hold some of his postseason failures against him - especially being one and done 4 straight times in his prime (even if 2 were to the stacked Lakers). I don't really hold the 86 Finals against him, the only team I think that could have beaten that team was the 14 Spurs. Hakeem generally had very good defensive teams, but his ability and the moments had sway my opinion on that end.

Offensively he was unguardable in his prime. Maybe it was "only" 56% TS but I think people put way too much stock in that. He was the only real threat on his team until 1995 and he was deadly from 15 feet and in. Back to the basket hooks, baseline spins, running hooks, face-up jumpers, face-up drives, fadeaways, he did it all. His footwork is legendary because it was so hard to beat. His only real offensive weakness was passing, where he was merely adequate or maybe good. Of course Shaq had a higher FG%, he couldn't do anything beyond 5 or 6 feet - even when nobody was defending him. Hakeem's squad swept Shaq's Orlando team, which was a good veteran squad outside of Shaq/Penny and an overall better team probably (this was the same team that beat Jordan's Bulls, albeit with Grant switching sides).

MJ was a lesser version in the later part of the decade, I don't think it's crazy to think 94-96 Hakeem compares offensively with MJ from 95-97 (since he was whiffing at baseball in 94). Here are the playoff stats for those:

MJ: 31/6.5/4.5 with 1.8 steals on 46% FG/31% 3pt/48% eFG (47 games)
Hakeem: 29.8/11.4/4.4 with 1.5 steals and 3.7 blocks on 52% FG/52.6% eFG (57 games)

BTW that is not cherry picking, take 96-98 if you want and the stats are worse for MJ. Both were great, both were very comparable in that period - one had a great team.

I'm not accusing you of cherry picking but you still have to address MJ's offensive output and all around play from 91-93, since that was firmly in the 90's and clearly better than anything Hakeem ever did.

What does it say you have to take the best playoff years for Hakeem to compare to the worst playoff years of MJ to even make it a comparison, here are MJ's 91-93 years:

MJ: 33/6.4/6.6 with 2.1 steals on 49.7% FG / 38.7% 3PT / 51.5% eFG (58 games)

So my question remains, if rings and stats do matter to you, and they clearly show at his peak MJ was superior to Hakeem offensively, what other criteria are you going off of?

That Hakeem in his prime was un-guardable? Do you want to try and make an argument that MJ was more "guardable" than Hakeem with a straight face?

Why the persistence in trying to avoid 91-93? Those were clearly part of the 90's.

Hakeem is my favorite player of all-time. He was amazing, but let's not get carried away. Jordan was far and away the best player of the 90's.

valade16
06-15-2015, 01:58 PM
David Robinson, shaq, ewing, and probably mourning are all better than any of those players...

The competition isn't even remotely close.

Well the All-Defensive team doesn't have to be PG, SG, SF, PF, C.

As such Jordan was competing with:

Alvin Robertson
Joe Dumars
Dennis Rodman
Scottie Pippen
Mookie Blaylock
Gary Payton

While perhaps not at the level of competition Hakeem faced, it was still pretty stiff.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 02:11 PM
Rolando Blackman, joe dumars, Reggie miller just to name a few lol

still a weak position compared to others.

flea
06-15-2015, 03:00 PM
So my question remains, if rings and stats do matter to you, and they clearly show at his peak MJ was superior to Hakeem offensively, what other criteria are you going off of?

That Hakeem in his prime was un-guardable? Do you want to try and make an argument that MJ was more "guardable" than Hakeem with a straight face?

Why the persistence in trying to avoid 91-93? Those were clearly part of the 90's.

Hakeem is my favorite player of all-time. He was amazing, but let's not get carried away. Jordan was far and away the best player of the 90's.

Yawn, I picked Jordan for Christ's sake and it was on the strength of his offensive work. I still think those prime years where Hakeem was taking down all the best best big men in the NBA on relatively subpar teams put him in the conversation with Jordan on that end - not to mention defense which you keep ignoring. I'm actually less high on Hakeem's defense than most but I don't think there's any way he's not a top 3-5 all-time defender.

The only point is it's not "far and away." I think Hakeem's 90s work is a lot closer to Jordan's than Kobe's 00s work is to Duncan's, for example. Disagree if you want but we can all read the box score stats for Jordan's 6+ years he actually played compared to Hakeem's. His prime scoring load matches fairly well with all of Jordan's work and defensively there is no contest.

valade16
06-15-2015, 03:12 PM
Yawn, I picked Jordan for Christ's sake and it was on the strength of his offensive work. I still think those prime years where Hakeem was taking down all the best best big men in the NBA on relatively subpar teams put him in the conversation with Jordan on that end - not to mention defense which you keep ignoring. I'm actually less high on Hakeem's defense than most but I don't think there's any way he's not a top 3-5 all-time defender.

The only point is it's not "far and away." I think Hakeem's 90s work is a lot closer to Jordan's than Kobe's 00s work is to Duncan's, for example. Disagree if you want but we can all read the box score stats for Jordan's 6+ years he actually played compared to Hakeem's. His prime scoring load matches fairly well with all of Jordan's work and defensively there is no contest.

I see, so the only leg you have to stand on is your opinion. In that case, you are free to continue to bring it up whenever you like, but I'm going to wait for some other form of proof before I even consider your notion...

flea
06-15-2015, 03:18 PM
Don't go jej on us, valade. All of this is opinion, it's a discussion board. Throwing out WS or PER stats is basically your opinion that they capture what happens on the floor, even though we know they don't. How do you judge defense between bigs and wings at all? Or do you just ignore it like you have in this thread?

valade16
06-15-2015, 03:36 PM
Don't go jej on us, valade. All of this is opinion, it's a discussion board. Throwing out WS or PER stats is basically your opinion that they capture what happens on the floor, even though we know they don't. How do you judge defense between bigs and wings at all? Or do you just ignore it like you have in this thread?

Of course it's opinion, but my opinion is supported by other things besides my opinion. I've cited awards, accolades, championships, traditional numbers and advanced metrics, all of which support the notion that Jordan was superior in the 90's to Hakeem. You've dismissed them all out of hand and then have the gall to accuse me of "going jej".

Of course there's a difference between bigs and wings defensively, a rim protecting Center is inherently more valuable than a wing defender because of how they affect the game. But Hakeem didn't lead his team to a dominant defensive rating every year.

The Rockets Drtg in the 90s:
90-91: 2nd
91-92: 10th
92-93: 3rd
93-94: 2nd
94-95: 12th
95-96: 14th
96-97: 10th
97-98: 25th

He led his team to an elite defense 3 times. Which really highlights to me why Hakeem just doesn't measure up against MJ in the 90's.

In order for someone to be able to dethrone MJ in the 90's they need to have been able to capitalize on MJ's biggest weakness that decade: longevity. Hakeem doesn't do that.

He was best in the world insanely elite for about 4 seasons and after that fell off of that elite level. So if I can point to MJ being at an elite level longer than Hakeem during the decade it doesn't bode well for Hakeem in a comparison, especially when we start to break down who at their peak was more dominant.

Also, one simply cannot ignore the playoff failings of Hakeem after his 2nd Championship. He had some stacked teams and didn't capitalize there. I give vastly more credit to Hakeem for taking the 2 teams he did to the Championship (particularly the 1st one) than I take for not being able to get it done later, but in a comparison to Jordan, he has to be near perfect.

There's really nothing I can point to on Jordan's resume in the 90's in the playoffs and say that's comparable to Hakeem not getting it done with Barkley and Drexler. The only year in the 90's he didn't win a Title was when he came back at the end of the season and was still shaking off rust. Otherwise, he simply always got it done.

If Hakeem were at his 94-95 levels for say 6+ seasons I'd consider it. But he was not as dominant at his peak in the 90's and he didn't even have as many peak seasons as MJ. So to me, it isn't much of a comparison at all.

papipapsmanny
06-15-2015, 03:53 PM
I love the Dream, but Jordan was clearly better for the decade.

To be honest Im not taking anyone over Jordan from 1987 through 1998. The fact that there is a decent argument that he could have won 8 straight if he simply played all throughout the 90s is amazing.

I mean yeah he played in 95 for 17 games and clearly wasn't who we was. He had the worst shooting % of his career including his stint with the Wizards.

I'd never say it would be a lock that he wins both those years but I'd give him a damn good shot of winning at least one of them.

Hakeem was amazing, but Jordan was better. In the end it may be somewhat close but there is no argument for him when comparing him to Jordan in the 90s

flea
06-15-2015, 03:58 PM
While you are right about his Rockets teams at least from 1995 onwards (and into his back injury) those team stats sort of obscure some things. The team stats you listed are also why I feel sometimes his defensive impact isn't quite as great as perhaps a handful of other defensive greats - but nobody is going to try to argue he's not way up there.

First the later teams were mainly stocking up on over-the-hill stars and his back was bad. Second the early part of the decade his rosters were pretty pitiful. Third when he was younger and had younger rosters (late 80s) his defenses were elite. He carried a huge 2-way load and I think that definitely plays a part in some of those 90s stats. If Duncan didn't have guards he could reliably share a scoring load with I doubt his defensive contributions would have been as towering as they were.

All that said, he's still had 7 top 5 defenses in his career (all in prime) - the only anchors I think that can compete with that are guys like Ewing and Duncan. I consider Duncan to be the defensive GOAT and I think Ewing gets underrated for what he did, even if the whole team was pretty good. Robinson is up there too - but again, Hakeem has the playoff moments where he schooled them both. Most of the best 90s defensive squads were pretty stacked at multiple positions - the best Hakeem really had was Vernon Maxwell.

lol, please
06-15-2015, 04:05 PM
50s- Schayes
60s- Wilt
70s- KAJ
80s- Bird
90s- the GOAT
00s- SHAQ
10s- Durant

papipapsmanny
06-15-2015, 04:07 PM
Everyone will point to the team around him as well, but they didn't win **** without him, and Pippen's efficiency in the playoffs went down down hill after 93, and was terrible from 96 and beyond in the playoffs.

Rodman was not an offensive threat to be honest, his damage there was minimal scoring wise.

They did have Kukoc, but he was awful in the playoffs (during the last 3 MJ titles) other than the 98 title run.

I'd say the offensive help for MJ during the last 3 runs was overblown. But he was putting up over 31 a game during those three years on 46% shooting, which is still fairly efficient, but way down for him from before he reitred the first time.

MJ needed his cast to rebound and play defense so he could do most of the socring, and they did that extremely well.

With that said, to me Hakeem is the MJ of his position. He was a great scorer there, and great defensively, and could pass well too.

cmellofan15
06-15-2015, 04:19 PM
50s- Schayes
60s- Wilt
70s- KAJ
80s- Bird
90s- the GOAT
00s- SHAQ
10s- Durant

Do you have any actual reasoning for why you'd take Durant over LeBron? Seems like a pretty stupid pick.

lol, please
06-15-2015, 05:10 PM
Do you have any actual reasoning for why you'd take Durant over LeBron? Seems like a pretty stupid pick.
Durant has a higher TS% and DRtg in the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 05:29 PM
Durant has a higher TS% and DRtg in the playoffs.

wow

mngopher35
06-15-2015, 05:33 PM
Durant has a higher TS% and DRtg in the playoffs.

Outside of this being a horrible way to analyze a player it isn't even true. Lebron has had the better playoff defensive rating and from 10-14 had a higher TS% than durant in the playoffs (so you are punishing him for playing this year while Durant is injured).

This has to be proof that you aren't serious with your posts, no one can think like this.

flea
06-15-2015, 05:40 PM
If there's one thing I want to accomplish with my life's work on PSD it's to get people to stop using DRtg to compare wings and guards.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2015, 06:05 PM
If there's one thing I want to accomplish with my life's work on PSD it's to get people to stop using DRtg to compare wings and guards.

I am on your team

cmellofan15
06-16-2015, 01:00 PM
Durant has a higher TS% and DRtg in the playoffs.


Outside of this being a horrible way to analyze a player it isn't even true. Lebron has had the better playoff defensive rating and from 10-14 had a higher TS% than durant in the playoffs (so you are punishing him for playing this year while Durant is injured).

This has to be proof that you aren't serious with your posts, no one can think like this.

hahahahaha that is the most ridiculous way i've ever seen two players compared.