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joedaheights
06-11-2015, 12:23 AM
these playoffs by the Conference Semifinals?

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'neal
David Robinson
Magic Johnson
Patrick Ewing
Larry Bird
Scottie Pippen
Karl Malone
Isiah Thomas

This isn't just a Lebron thing. This is a today's NBA thing. You have players who can do this or that like Curry or who are trying to be scorers instead of true PGs at 6'3", but what happens when you make a Steph Curry do everything you have to do to truly dictate offense. He can't.

As much as I want to see these guys get their money, I think not going to college is a big culprit. I think from 19-22, you are still at a level age wise where unless you are Kobe or Lebron, you probably greatly permanently benefit from drills at the college level. And you can pretend that it's just as easy to do in the NBA, but the NBA world isn't interested in that. There's no time to try to get a 20 year old his college drills.

The other thing that comes into play is the AAU pimp game. These guys care more about playing for their local pimp who takes care of them and charges the college coaching pimp 75K for a VISIT to a certain school... these "charities" that have to explain how they generated 650K annually in bake sales.. they don't teach kids fundamentals.

So what happens? You end up watching Dwight Howard and thinking, "my god if John Wooden taught this kid post moves he'd be amazing, but he just can't function if his first attempt to throw his opponent back like a rag doll doesn't work." Or you watch Jimmy Butler and say "if this guy could hold his dribble against a hard double team and actually draw defenders closer, there could be open Bulls everywhere" or "if this guy had a left hand dribble, he's a good enough athlete to not only get to the rim, but finish over good defense."

But it doesn't happen.

And then there's the lie that "these guys have such great equipment that they can just get so much better with their training methods." Bo Jackson never lifted a weight in his life and scientists have already said that "human beings don't naturally evolve in a period as short as 50 or even 100 years." So it's not from really awesome whey protein, which means if players are bigger, stronger and faster, you know what it's from and I still, with the exception of Lebron, have not seen a modern player AS athletic as Shaq, MJ, Pippen, Robinson and Grant Hill. And I mean the total package.. size, speed, explosiveness combination. So if you're athletic but light in the *** like Durant, meh.

Who can argue that there wouldn't be at least 7 guys in one playoff who would be #2 in these playoffs in a lot of years?

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 01:39 AM
these playoffs by the Conference Semifinals?

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'neal
David Robinson
Magic Johnson
Patrick Ewing
Larry Bird
Scottie Pippen
Karl Malone
Isiah Thomas

This isn't just a Lebron thing. This is a today's NBA thing. You have players who can do this or that like Curry or who are trying to be scorers instead of true PGs at 6'3", but what happens when you make a Steph Curry do everything you have to do to truly dictate offense. He can't.

As much as I want to see these guys get their money, I think not going to college is a big culprit. I think from 19-22, you are still at a level age wise where unless you are Kobe or Lebron, you probably greatly permanently benefit from drills at the college level. And you can pretend that it's just as easy to do in the NBA, but the NBA world isn't interested in that. There's no time to try to get a 20 year old his college drills.

The other thing that comes into play is the AAU pimp game. These guys care more about playing for their local pimp who takes care of them and charges the college coaching pimp 75K for a VISIT to a certain school... these "charities" that have to explain how they generated 650K annually in bake sales.. they don't teach kids fundamentals.

So what happens? You end up watching Dwight Howard and thinking, "my god if John Wooden taught this kid post moves he'd be amazing, but he just can't function if his first attempt to throw his opponent back like a rag doll doesn't work." Or you watch Jimmy Butler and say "if this guy could hold his dribble against a hard double team and actually draw defenders closer, there could be open Bulls everywhere" or "if this guy had a left hand dribble, he's a good enough athlete to not only get to the rim, but finish over good defense."

But it doesn't happen.

And then there's the lie that "these guys have such great equipment that they can just get so much better with their training methods." Bo Jackson never lifted a weight in his life and scientists have already said that "human beings don't naturally evolve in a period as short as 50 or even 100 years." So it's not from really awesome whey protein, which means if players are bigger, stronger and faster, you know what it's from and I still, with the exception of Lebron, have not seen a modern player AS athletic as Shaq, MJ, Pippen, Robinson and Grant Hill. And I mean the total package.. size, speed, explosiveness combination. So if you're athletic but light in the *** like Durant, meh.

Who can argue that there wouldn't be at least 7 guys in one playoff who would be #2 in these playoffs in a lot of years?

Well I would say all of them accept Thomas. If I could add anyone of them to the Cavs, including all guys in the semi-finals, considering fit with the Cavs and Lebron I'd go.

1.Shaq
2.Drob
3.Dream
4.Mike
5.Bird
6.Magic
7.Patrick
8.Malone
9.Scottie
10.Curry

Jayb587
06-11-2015, 01:41 AM
90's>now

joedaheights
06-11-2015, 02:13 AM
90's>now

I agree but I don't think it has to be that way... I think today's game could be worse, could be better... But that's up to the people developing these players before their nba rookie season ... Most coaches are too lazy to teach post moves or too stupid to realize that a kid with enough talent to get by now is gonna need a left hand dribble tomorrow.

Jayb587
06-11-2015, 02:25 AM
I agree but I don't think it has to be that way... I think today's game could be worse, could be better... But that's up to the people developing these players before their nba rookie season ... Most coaches are too lazy to teach post moves or too stupid to realize that a kid with enough talent to get by now is gonna need a left hand dribble tomorrow.

the 2000's all star team would fair better against the 90's then todays era all star team

GREATNESS ONE
06-11-2015, 03:08 AM
Honestly, I see like 6-7 players.

Quinnsanity
06-11-2015, 03:54 AM
I mean right now, we have Durant (injuries), Davis (team), Russ (injuries to his team), CP3/Blake (I have no effing clue), Harden (team injuries/team hasn't cashed in all of its trade chips yet) and Boogie (I swear to god he's gonna turn into a poor man's Shaq when he finds the right team) all out, several of which are off the table for dumb reasons. I think, fully healthy, we have nothing to worry about in terms of leaguewide superstar level talent. This was just a particularly bizarre year.

Jayb587
06-11-2015, 04:30 AM
I mean right now, we have Durant (injuries), Davis (team), Russ (injuries to his team), CP3/Blake (I have no effing clue), Harden (team injuries/team hasn't cashed in all of its trade chips yet) and Boogie (I swear to god he's gonna turn into a poor man's Shaq when he finds the right team) all out, several of which are off the table for dumb reasons. I think, fully healthy, we have nothing to worry about in terms of leaguewide superstar level talent. This was just a particularly bizarre year.

every player u named in the west LOL. LeBron may set the record for consecutive finals appearances in the east haha. I think KD will be the first superstar to head east to the wizards, need to even the talent out.

Wizards-cavs battles could get good in a couple years.

Alan Shore
06-11-2015, 05:09 AM
Isiah would be less special because the depth is too high in PG, but the rest would be instant superstars. If KD could get a couple of healthy seasons under his belt, he and LeBron belong to that list from current active stars, and AD in future.

sportsfanatic99
06-11-2015, 09:13 AM
every player u named in the west LOL. LeBron may set the record for consecutive finals appearances in the east haha. I think KD will be the first superstar to head east to the wizards, need to even the talent out.

Wizards-cavs battles could get good in a couple years.

ya i agree. star players in each conference is inbalanced. don't get all the flak Lebron gets for playing in the East though. the Eastern teams are all devoid of superstar/star power. Korver made the all-star team for crying out loud lol

Hawkeye15
06-11-2015, 10:29 AM
If you truly believe the NBA is so void of talent compared to the old days, why bother watching?

Alan Shore
06-11-2015, 10:50 AM
If you truly believe the NBA is so void of talent compared to the old days, why bother watching?

That list is all time great players, and it's not like they were at their peak in the exact same period of time.

To say that all time greats who came before this era were better than everyone except one or two guys is neither an indicator of current league being void of talent nor is a knock on the current state of league.

If injuries hadn't happened, we would be down for some great series this year, it didn't happen this year but could very well happen next year.

JasonJohnHorn
06-11-2015, 04:18 PM
First off Jordan would have been the best player, not the second, so his name is off the list. Pat Ewing was never even the second best player in the league in his own time, so he wouldn't be now. Pippen was likewise never even second best in the league (only on his team), so he's out of the running. Same can be said of Isiah Thomas.

Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O'neal in their prime put up more amazing numbers than anybody playing right now. The same could be said of David Robinson.

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird Larry Bird likewise had prime seasons that were better than anything guys put out this year.

On off pique years, or pique years any of the above could have been first or second best.


As for Karl Malone, I don't think that even his finest season was as impressive as what LBJ and Curry did this year. He was great, and deserving of his MVP awards, but the level of play Curry offered this season was great than any season Malone had, and LBJ is just flat out better.

Obviously, you CAN make a case for Malone having had better seasons than Curry, but when you consider the minutes Kerry gives Curry (32.7) compared to what Sloan gave Malone (Malone averaged 39 minutes a game for about ten years), and look at Curry's percentages, while considering how the game has slowed down, it's pretty clear that Curry has a strong care himself.

SteveNash
06-11-2015, 05:05 PM
No better way to judge NBA overall talent than to compare a 20 year era to a single playoff round.

joedaheights
06-11-2015, 05:10 PM
I mean right now, we have Durant (injuries), Davis (team), Russ (injuries to his team), CP3/Blake (I have no effing clue), Harden (team injuries/team hasn't cashed in all of its trade chips yet) and Boogie (I swear to god he's gonna turn into a poor man's Shaq when he finds the right team) all out, several of which are off the table for dumb reasons. I think, fully healthy, we have nothing to worry about in terms of leaguewide superstar level talent. This was just a particularly bizarre year.

Part of that is being a complete player... doing everything you have to do in the face of everything the opposition tries to take away from you, to win against top talent. I see Kobe Bryant as a complete player in his prime. I see Lebron, Duncan and Shaq that way. In other words, doesn't matter how big or strong the guy they put on you is or how they set up your defense, you can still get what you get against anyone else when you're in the Finals.

Durant? Lebron is Lebron, but it was clear that Durant was exposed as being massively light in the rear end. When he had a player like Lebron actually making him show some physicality to his game, to me he looked worse than Stephen Curry is looking in this series.

Westbrook? Have you ever noticed how few combo guards and scoring point guards have EVER led championship offensive attacks? And I mean EVER. The 60s... now? The 80s? I've seen guys like Cousy and Isiah be able to draw defense and find open shooters and then score when the defense didn't come, but how many guys have you seen lead offensive attacks of championship teams at 6'3" or less and say, "hey, forget this get into the paint and kick to open shooters BS, our offensive attack is ME! I'm going to score first and ask questions later"...?

I think Westbrook is a great regular season player who looks a lot better when teams don't get back in transition. But in the Finals, we know that teams do get back in transition. And it would be the same song and dance that Cleveland is putting on Curry. "No! Nothing pretty... we're going to make you get ALL the way to the basket. Not a quality shot 4 feet from the basket, or 8 feet... you're going to have to show us you can get all the way to the rim and finish over centers and power forwards." And, even with the best combo guards, you're literally seeing a slightly poor man's version of what it would look like if Jordan was only 6'1" and tried to play his same game. It'd be a nice story. It'd be nice as a secondary punch along with a good offensive post true center-sized player. But as the primary deal? Nope. (Notice I didn't list John Stockton?)

Harden? Same problem in the half court offense that everyone has had from Drexler to Carter to McGrady even to Bryant, who only ever won with a post player shooting over 50%... quickness. When a player is small like Curry or Westbrook, you make them get big at the rim and finish over the trees. And much like my Bulls' Derrick Rose, you can go back to when he was healthy and see Miami with two players in Lebron and Wade who would be great in any era turning Rose's game into a joke making him throw up floaters from 6 feet and rebounding the stack of bricks. When a player is big like Harden, you make him show you he can clear defenders and get into the paint without a guy on his hip. That's why MJ is MJ... one player who is big enough at 6'6" to finish over anyone with a running start, but IN THAT SAME PLAYER has the quickness to give someone the okey doke and get into the paint with a head of steam. The second part is the problem with Harden. Teams can make him shoot jumpers, which is what you want. When you can reduce your opponent, in the NBA Finals, to shooting contested jumpers and you're Lebron James or MJ or Duncan, you're going to win, period.

Blake Griffin? I've already seen Shawn Kemp play. He's a great ESPN huge play of the night regular season story. And in an era where it's in the best interest of billionaires to make as many fan bases as possible think that their team REALLY, REALLY does have a chance for as long as possible, of course you prop Blake Griffin up to keep that cash register ringing. I'm not sure what impact he'll ever have on championship play.

The one name you brought up that I could see having the ability to pass the laugh test with the all time greats is Davis, who I'd say you could put into a painted area with David Robinson and get ready for one hell of a matchup. But he's got more to prove.

C David Robinson
F Antoine Carr
F Sean Elliott
G Avery Johnson
G Vinny Del Negro

This team went 49-33 in 1993, beat the defending NBA Finalist Portland Trailblazers 3-1 in the first round and took the 1993 NBA Finalist Phoenix Suns 6 games.

We're clearly in an era where the ultra wealthy have banded together and figured out that they make more money when they sell these players up the river every last inch they can push them. It's not about whether they ARE this or that good, it's about how much money you can make in the time you create plausible deniability that they MIGHT BE this or that good. These players are overmarketed.

Like Charles Barkley said, "when big corporations came to me, Michael and others, we already had the game first, then they sold that." In years since, I've had to watch Tracy McGrady treated as if he had won rings until proven otherwise, when even MJ was harshly criticized by national media as a player who was "just a great scorer" UNTIL he won.

If I was treating the 90s as today is treated, where, in the sake of "money made before player X proves that he is NOT worthy of this status" I'd have listed Drexler, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, Chris Webber, Penny Hardaway, Tim Hardaway, Alonzo Mourning, Kevin McHale, an old Kareem, Dominique Wilkins, Shawn Kemp, John Stockton, Gary Payton.

But I'm a harsh critic of all eras.. and this era has produced the greatest number of players who stand up to harsh scrutiny with great weakness, but yet, in the name of mountain dew extreme code red marketing syrup ARE NEVER criticized.

My god, when the 90s were barely the past, I had to listen to morons in the early part of the last decade try to act as if it was a given that Allen Iverson was a better player than Scottie Pippen. I sparked that, of all places, on a bay area radio show, a host took it and ran with it, and you would have thought Scottie Pippen was Tony Snell.

You know what, I'm actually coming to a place where I really appreciate Lebron. Because in an era where it's just handed to anyone who looks good in January one year, he's actually proven that however great he is, he's that great all year against all comers...

joedaheights
06-11-2015, 05:12 PM
Isiah would be less special because the depth is too high in PG, but the rest would be instant superstars. If KD could get a couple of healthy seasons under his belt, he and LeBron belong to that list from current active stars, and AD in future.

AD I'll give you, but has Durant shown that he can play the same game when you get up in his trunk and make him actually play physical? Because I saw a guy who looked like 25% of himself v. Lebron when Lebron actually got up in his grill. He's too skinny...

joedaheights
06-11-2015, 05:22 PM
If you truly believe the NBA is so void of talent compared to the old days, why bother watching?

Because it's never totally void. It has been worse honestly since 1991. Even as a huge Jordan fan, I can fully admit that the late 90s was probably some of the worst basketball ever. But there's always a player or some small group of players who could do battle in any era. Whether they'd be AS good in the early 90s or 80s as they were in their time, there's no question that the following players would be able to mix it up in any era ever:

Shaquille O'neal
Grant Hill
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade

But there's a funny phenomenon going on in your question.. this past shaming... "why are you so obsessed with the past?"

Lebron does something, and today's fan base starts in with MJ. Then when fans who were around back then want to start in with their own list of observations, it's not allowed or it's weird.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2015, 05:47 PM
Because it's never totally void. It has been worse honestly since 1991. Even as a huge Jordan fan, I can fully admit that the late 90s was probably some of the worst basketball ever. But there's always a player or some small group of players who could do battle in any era. Whether they'd be AS good in the early 90s or 80s as they were in their time, there's no question that the following players would be able to mix it up in any era ever:

Shaquille O'neal
Grant Hill
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade

But there's a funny phenomenon going on in your question.. this past shaming... "why are you so obsessed with the past?"

Lebron does something, and today's fan base starts in with MJ. Then when fans who were around back then want to start in with their own list of observations, it's not allowed or it's weird.

oh every generation is smothered by annoying fans, in any sport.

I don't agree the talent is any worse at all. This era will churn out as many HOF'ers and any other era.

joedaheights
06-11-2015, 05:47 PM
First off Jordan would have been the best player, not the second, so his name is off the list. Pat Ewing was never even the second best player in the league in his own time, so he wouldn't be now. Pippen was likewise never even second best in the league (only on his team), so he's out of the running. Same can be said of Isiah Thomas.

Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaquille O'neal in their prime put up more amazing numbers than anybody playing right now. The same could be said of David Robinson.

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird Larry Bird likewise had prime seasons that were better than anything guys put out this year.

On off pique years, or pique years any of the above could have been first or second best.


As for Karl Malone, I don't think that even his finest season was as impressive as what LBJ and Curry did this year. He was great, and deserving of his MVP awards, but the level of play Curry offered this season was great than any season Malone had, and LBJ is just flat out better.

Obviously, you CAN make a case for Malone having had better seasons than Curry, but when you consider the minutes Kerry gives Curry (32.7) compared to what Sloan gave Malone (Malone averaged 39 minutes a game for about ten years), and look at Curry's percentages, while considering how the game has slowed down, it's pretty clear that Curry has a strong care himself.

Why is it sound logic that just because a player isn't the second best player in the league in his own time, he wouldn't be now? Why is that automatically true on its face? If Shaq didn't finish in the top 4 in MVP voting in 1994, and you don't think that he'd be the second best player in the league now?

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird

Because I just listed 3 people from the early 80s, one of them, by virtue of numerical fact, would literally not be the 2nd best player of his era. Are you saying that any of those guys wouldn't be the 2nd best player now?

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Walt Frazier
Elgin Baylor

Only two of these players would be the second best player in the league now? The rule you gave is an odd rule.

Patrick Ewing and Scottie Pippen would pistol whip every player who was in the conference finals this year except Lebron. That's a fact. You think Steph Curry is having trouble with Matthew Delavedova on him with help coming over the top? John Starks was a better defender than Delavedova, so you tell me what Curry would do with Starks on him and Oakley, Ewing and Mason waiting.

This era has a lot of players who could be good, but they're taught too much specialization and there's too much of this motion offense screen and roll crap.

As far as Karl Malone, I always thought he was overrated. BUT.. you're doing what today's media does.. they even do it in my home city of Chicago, and enable the Bulls to be a team that will always be a joke when it really matters.. you're talking to me about the whole season. The NBA from potential games 1-96 and potential games 97-110 are two VERY different things.

Curry was better than Malone would be today, until he ran into Lebron James. I firmly believe Lebron would knock Karl Malone into next week if both players met with similar casts. But if Lebron had his cast and Karl Malone had the current Warriors 11 players other than Curry, he'd win in 6. And even if they were on even teams and Lebron would obviously win, Karl Malone would look a LOT LOT LOT better than Curry has looked.

This all boils down to one question...

And this is the real stuff. If you tell me you don't know where this is coming from, believe me, in today's media that is more advertisement for billionaires than "coverage", I have no doubt that this will be foreign to you...

As these BS coaches all up and down basketball began to just look for offenses and overall coaching strategies that got them more wins and more money than they provided excellent basketball, as motion offenses and Princeton offenses took over... when Jerry Colangelo and the competition committee got together to de-emphasize isolation play and craft rules that forced basketball that's more like the 60s (ironically, Colangelo's heyday) than it is like the 80s and 90s, no illegal defense/handcheck, etc., did they do so merely to encourage movement away from isolation dominators controlling games, or because the true isolation dominators were disappearing from the game?

ewing
06-12-2015, 11:14 AM
Because it's never totally void. It has been worse honestly since 1991. Even as a huge Jordan fan, I can fully admit that the late 90s was probably some of the worst basketball ever. But there's always a player or some small group of players who could do battle in any era. Whether they'd be AS good in the early 90s or 80s as they were in their time, there's no question that the following players would be able to mix it up in any era ever:

Shaquille O'neal
Grant Hill
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Dwyane Wade

But there's a funny phenomenon going on in your question.. this past shaming... "why are you so obsessed with the past?"

Lebron does something, and today's fan base starts in with MJ. Then when fans who were around back then want to start in with their own list of observations, it's not allowed or it's weird.

I agree, i think from the late 90s into the earily 2000s the league was trash. It was only period in my life i didn't watch a ton of NBA basketball and i blame the product. I do think since then it was gotten better and their has actually been a talent influx

JasonJohnHorn
06-12-2015, 10:31 PM
Why is it sound logic that just because a player isn't the second best player in the league in his own time, he wouldn't be now?

You are right, a player might not be the second best player of his time, but could be the second best of another time.

That said, the two players I was talking about were Pippen and Ewing, and Ewing wasn't even second best at his position. EVER. Even if the NY media voted him onto a couple of NBA second teams.

Hakeem and D-Rod were always better, and then Shaq came along.

Pippen... he'd be like a grade above Ron Artest in his best season, which wasn't even enough for an All-NBA first team.

Pippen would even be the second best SF in the league today. In this series, he'd be the third best player.

JasonJohnHorn
06-12-2015, 10:33 PM
Isiah would be less special because the depth is too high in PG, but the rest would be instant superstars. If KD could get a couple of healthy seasons under his belt, he and LeBron belong to that list from current active stars, and AD in future.

No offense, but your comment makes it sound like you aren't aware of how deep the point guard position was in the late 80's/early 90's: Tim Hardaway, Magic, Isiah, Mark Price, John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton. These are guys who would rank in the top five at the point guard position today. I mean... come on.

JasonJohnHorn
06-12-2015, 10:34 PM
No better way to judge NBA overall talent than to compare a 20 year era to a single playoff round.

Well... a lot of the players finishing up their careers these days (KG, Duncan, Kobe), played against a lot of the guys on the list in their first couple of seasons. So it's not like we don't have players that serve as a basis of comparison.