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joedaheights
06-10-2015, 01:01 PM
Several points here:

1. First, the pro "caught in the moment/hyperbole/I'm gonna make corporate America happy by propping up the 'now' guy, because 'now' guy being great sells more sneakers/ipads/soft drinks/everything than realistic perspecitve about past guy possibly being greater" points:

Yes:

1) Lebron's team is awful
2) Lebron is playing great
3) Anyone from a city like Chicago who is looking for something to knock THIS moment because he didn't come to your Knicks or your Nets is in fact an idiot
4) Anyone knocking Lebron for his whining for flopping or anything that may be real, but who is trying to use that to take away from this moment, is being not a huge idiot, but the "I don't see the forest for the trees" slight kind of idiot

2. The "how you categorize greatness" dichotomy. This helps separate the confusion right off the bat...

Two different questions

a) How talented is a player? Because players don't always play to their talents.. see Lebron's 2011 Finals (more on that later) or Wilt's 69 or 70 Finals where his team was massively favored, and like the 2011 Finals, you're left asking "how did this player of talent X lose to the team he had no business losing to? We know that Larry Bird for example, always played to his considerably lesser physical talent than say a David Robinson.

If you're just saying "I don't want to compare what these players did, I just want to say that physically, this player can do this or has this skill with the ball or that in a given series when he's on, perhaps no one is better".. yes, if you scouted their top end capabilities without a critique of their resume,

Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'neal
Lebron James

Any one of those five, in their athletic prime, is a toss up. As the biggest Michael Jordan fan, if I had a choice of one player in his prime of primes, I'd actually take Shaq in 2001. He may have been much more flash in the pan than the other four, but none of the other four had moments where three guys could be draped on their back and might still not be enough to stop the hoop and the harm.

b) When you begin to say "well, if player A does X, he's better than MJ" or Magic or Bird or whoever, the second question is, "regardless of talent, regardless of claiming that Wilt could dunk from the free throw line from a standing start, was the best beach volleyball player ever, could lead the league in assists and had rockets in his rear end or whatever kind of Paul Bunyon/Bo Jackson story you wanna tell".. what did he DO?

That's a different question. That's where the Kobe/Lebron flashers who are nowhere to be found the day after the 2004 Finals or 2011 Finals end... that's where you go back to those moments when they suddenly go "hey guys, I think it's safe, we can jump out, rip our street clothes off and show our corporate masters that we want NOW guy to be considered better than "can't sell as many sneakers to 15 year olds as now guy because he played in the past" guy.

3. Perspective

a) The Cavs supporting cast lacks star power, no one will deny that... but:

1) Do you need star power when you have a guy who can get a shot for a teammate literally any time he wants? When I have say, Shaq, I often ask the question of whether or not a great shooter like Reggie Miller would have been better than Kobe as a teammate. When I can draw 3 defenders, their parents, the state police and the French foreign legion into the paint, like Shaq, MJ and Lebron all can, do I gain extra benefit from an injured guy who isn't the best shooter ever but has all of these break down dribble moves? I don't need him to break anyone down, I'm going to literally drop the ball in his hands wide open.

Did Glen Rice make the 2000 Lakers better than a 2002 version that had Rick Fox, who failed miserably at being a star in Boston, playing lock down defense and hitting every wide open shot that Shaq created for him?

Scottie is different. He was a star who didn't demand the ball for break down stuff. So believe me, I'm not saying MJ didn't benefit greatly from Scottie Pippen, but I'm not sure how much Lebron benefits from Kyrie or Shaq benefits from Kobe. If the Kobe example just cooks your grits too much, okay, take Penny Hardaway. I happen to think Shaq does a lot better against Hakeem and the 96 Bulls if he's passing out to a wide open bulls eye shooter.

b) Golden State isn't great either. You're looking at a regular season team that was great and that hasn't really faced anything close to the kind of defense that a team with Lebron can play. The Cavs did what the 89 Pistons, 91 Bulls or 93 Knicks would have done.

They said "hmm, this Curry guy shoots like Reggie Miller and is much better at handling and getting action off the dribble. But, is he quick and can he finish AT the RIM (not 5 feet from the rim) in the paint over the trees? I don't think so. Let's make him beat us all the way to the basket." And, you're seeing why combo guards have never been the primary scoring threat on elite champions. And also why the only swing men to do it as by far the prime scorers on their team without post help (which Curry doesn't have either in great quantities) have been MJ and Lebron. Even Kobe always needs a 50%+ shooter in the paint.

Once you make Curry be a NBA FINALS alpha dog type all around offensive leader with team defense designed to make him finish with dunks at the basket, which he clearly can't do, just like 100,000 guys couldn't before him... what are the Warriors?

The fact is, kudos to the Cavs for being the first team they've seen who could make Curry do things he just can't do or shut up and go home/admit that at that point the Warriors become rather regular, but the Warriors have been exposed.

Since Magic entered the league, if the Warriors were to have beaten the Bulls or Hawks this year, how many NBA champions would you say they're better than?

04 Pistons
11 Mavs
94 Rockets maybe

Who else? You think the Cavs have forced Curry into discomfort? Imagine him with Jason Williams up in his face and James Posey, Dwyane Wade and Udonis Haslem waiting to make him finish (06 Heat). Yeah, Williams sucks just like Dellavedova, but the guy whose on him just needs to be aggressive and steer him to the right defender.

Like Bill Russell said "send him to me, I'll be waiting for him."

The Warriors are a team that has one guy would would make the NBA 75 at 75 team if they did one, one other good player who will be a stretch for the hall and a bunch of guys you won't remember in 25 years.

c) Don't tell me about Michael Jordan, I was there. You have idiots on Chicago radio trying to tell you about what MJ would or wouldn't have done with this cast, and they can't even remember that James Worthy and Byron Scott missed one game of the NBA Finals.. Matt Spiegel and Jason Goff thought that Magic led Sam Perkins and nobody else to the 91 Finals... but they want to talk to you about MJ.

MJ would light this team up like a Christmas tree. But it's not just him. Probably any top ten player all time would be giving this Warriors team a lot of problems. What, you don't think Shaq would get 40 and have Iman Shumpert and JR Smith popping wide open threes? Please. The Warriors defend other diluted Western Conference regular season juggernauts fine. They're facing a historically great player. But everyone is acting like they've never seen one.

People say things like, "Lebron is a better all around player, if MJ had a bad shooting night this would never happen."

1) Check the facts... MJ averaged 11.4 APG in the 91 Finals while averaging 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG... he averaged 8.0 APG for an entire season while averaging 32.5 PPG on 53.8% FG. In 0 starts from 88-90 at PG, he was over 10 APG.

2) Did he have bad shooting nights? 53.5% against the Pistons in 91 in a sweep and you don't think that he'd do whatever he wanted to this team? Zero series in 91 where he shot less than 48.9%.. while Kobe and Lebron have made a living out of shooting under 40% for entire series.

d) The reaction - Modernist fans whether it be Kobe prime or Lebron prime want to bring up hyperbole or this or that, but they act offended when you present the other side of the argument. As if it's dirty to bring up the past. It's like court. The prosecution often can't simply offer evidence that you're a bad guy.. UNTIL you get people on the stand saying how you're a great guy, then they can offer whatever they want. If you're going to ask the question or offer the point, then it's all wide open.

e) Lebron isn't like Magic. He's like 80% of Magic. If he could literally pass like Magic, it would be scary. Go back and watch Magic passing in 1984 and come back and tell me he passes "like Magic"... I'm tired of hearing that.

With that all said, as long as perspective is there, he's great. There's no denying that... it's much less offensive than it was with Kobe, his 2001 light bulb halfro, the need to make body motions that mimicked MJ and that funny weird need to pronounce improve "impwoooove"...

NYKnickFanatic
06-10-2015, 01:03 PM
I'm hoping LeBron and the Cavs pull it off and I am a Knicks fan.

joedaheights
06-10-2015, 01:30 PM
I'm hoping LeBron and the Cavs pull it off and I am a Knicks fan.

I do too. I like seeing non stars debunk the "second star who dominates the ball" myth. I like jr smith and iman shumpert and their style of play, Lebron is great and I thought GSW was overrated going in...

lamzoka
06-10-2015, 01:41 PM
Me too. Lets go Cavs. Even with Kyrie out and them losing game 1, i never counted them out. Bron is a beast.

xbrackattackx
06-10-2015, 02:03 PM
Are there cliff notes for us working? Lol

MonroeFAN
06-10-2015, 02:16 PM
Holy crapoly... Longest topic in history? Not hating, but not reading either.

I agree with the premise though I'm sure, Lebron is incredible.

lol, please
06-10-2015, 03:26 PM
Stopped reading at "Golden State isn't great".

ewing
06-10-2015, 03:48 PM
Stopped reading at "Golden State isn't great".

i think they are the better team on paper and they have had a great season but the idea that they are a historically great team has always been laughable.

sportsfanatic99
06-10-2015, 03:58 PM
i think they are the better team on paper and they have had a great season but the idea that they are a historically great team has always been laughable.

let him think the team is historically great. the higher they climb, the harder they fall.

Phantom Dreamer
06-10-2015, 05:08 PM
Good thoughts.

KnickNyKnick
06-10-2015, 05:13 PM
yeah sorry i skimmed through that, well the first paragraph. But, Lebron winning in the finals without his other 2 stars in my opinion redeems him of that freakshow he created when going to Miami (im sorry this IS about that), this was the ring that was long over do. Cleveland and LBJ need this.

blams
06-10-2015, 05:17 PM
let him think the team is historically great. the higher they climb, the harder they fall.

Saying the GSW aren't historically great is just another way to try to discount LeBron.

They are historically great. Unfortunately, they ran into LeBron.

joedaheights
06-10-2015, 11:39 PM
Saying the GSW aren't historically great is just another way to try to discount LeBron.

They are historically great. Unfortunately, they ran into LeBron.

It's not a way of trying to discount Lebron. I was on facebook telling people that the Cavs would give GSW a lot more trouble than people thought beforehand, because I'm sorry, Steph Curry does it for me as a player who can do everything an offense needs to be a great champion just a LITTLE more than Steve Nash.

The Cavs were the first team to say "oh no Steph, we're taking your shot away, then your second level game away and the only way you're doing what you do is if you can get all the way to the basket," and he looks pedestrian doing so.

There's two ways to look at it. Lebron is great, and Stephen Curry is looking like he would look against not only Lebron, but 9 other great players, or the way one can infer you're looking at it,

Curry would be lighting MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan (prime) or Hakeem led teams up like a Christmas tree, but Lebron is so much better than all of those players that he now looks pedestrian. And you can make that point, but then be a big boy and tell us that and how good you think Lebron is, and then don't get offended when things like the 2011 Finals come up.

What I'm tired of is comments like yours from guys who are nowhere to be found in June 2011, and then who are also like "come on guys, who said he's as good as player X" five minutes later.

Steph Curry wouldn't even be functioning against the 91 Bulls, 89 Pistons, 03 Spurs, 06 Heat, 86 Celtics, 93 Knicks and a bunch of other teams I can rattle off. Neither would Klay Thompson.. of whom I've learned two things this year as he's emerged as a feel good guy you didn't know was going to be that good.

a) His dad liked white women in LA. The sisters who hate athletes who can't wait to date white chicks the first chance they get, HAAATE Mychal Thompson...

b) He's a nice feel good story until a historically great player does to him what Michael Jordan did to Mark Jackson, the old... alley oop poster where I swing back and kick you in the face. After that, you have to do a lot to be taken seriously enough to get a national nickname like the Splash Brothers.

Face it man, they're looking pedestrian against a guy who needed Dwyane Wade's help to make Dirk look like Wilt in 67. Does that mean he's not great all things considered? No. But the greatest, or challenging for the greatest? Doubtful.

ewing
06-11-2015, 08:25 AM
Saying the GSW aren't historically great is just another way to try to discount LeBron.

They are historically great. Unfortunately, they ran into LeBron.

no its not. They are a good team. On paper they are better then Clev. Clev is winning despite that b/c of LeBron James and the fact that he has been great. I'm allowed to disagree with some of the horseshit that comes of people mouths and not be a hater.

lol, please
06-12-2015, 10:40 PM
You couldn't find 10 better teams in the history of the NBA. I'd dare you to even try. 10.01 SRS says hi.

PowerHouse
06-12-2015, 11:00 PM
That may be the longest opening post in PSD history.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2015, 08:16 PM
I'll bet my first born you didn't post that from your phone

lol, please
06-14-2015, 08:40 PM
I'll bet my first born you didn't post that from your phone
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