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More-Than-Most
06-06-2015, 03:54 AM
Here are 2 great articles.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/


Lebron has had the 3rd worst Supporting cast in the last 65 years in a finals and that was with Kyrie... Without him it might be the worst ever. On top of all of that this is how his supporting cast and his finals opponents match up to the goat.

http://thebiglead.com/2015/06/02/lebron-michael-jordan-nba-finals-supporting-cast/

5ass
06-06-2015, 05:29 AM
no doubt he currently has a ****** supporting cast. injuries killed their chances this year. Anyone expecting LeBron to win this series, and holding it against him if he doesn't is just trying to hate on the guy. Especially if he's dropping 40 pts.

Look at that 2011 supporting cast. That will always be the one series that puts a stain on his resume. A lot of all time greats had those moments. (Kobe 04). Dirk was a beast that series. Man on a mission.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-06-2015, 05:59 AM
So you are saying in another words that now he's allowed to lose?

bluefire7002
06-06-2015, 06:22 AM
Series is 1-0 and them excuses for Bron have started... this is why this place blows.

Supreme LA
06-06-2015, 06:29 AM
Lebron apologists are going all out it seems.

Supreme LA
06-06-2015, 06:32 AM
no doubt he currently has a ****** supporting cast. injuries killed their chances this year. Anyone expecting LeBron to win this series, and holding it against him if he doesn't is just trying to hate on the guy. Especially if he's dropping 40 pts.

Look at that 2011 supporting cast. That will always be the one series that puts a stain on his resume. A lot of all time greats had those moments. (Kobe 04). Dirk was a beast that series. Man on a mission.

Nobody expects Lebron to win without Kyrie at this point. However, it's getting awful old hearing Lebron apologists continually disrespect the teammates. He has a good cast this year. It's just unfortunate what happened to Kyrie.

More-Than-Most
06-06-2015, 07:08 AM
Nobody expects Lebron to win without Kyrie at this point. However, it's getting awful old hearing Lebron apologists continually disrespect the teammates. He has a good cast this year. It's just unfortunate what happened to Kyrie.

a good cast this year? its the 3rd worst ever before Kyrie went down... he now holds the 2nd and 3rd worst ever supporting casts in the finals.

bluefire7002
06-06-2015, 07:14 AM
a good cast this year? its the 3rd worst ever before Kyrie went down... he now holds the 2nd and 3rd worst ever supporting casts in the finals.

Not talking about Finals, but how the hell is having Love and Kyrie + Smith + Shumpert off the bench a horrible supporting cast? It sucks he doesn't have the 2 other stars on the team currently but he very well knew what he was doing when he went back to the Cavs in a young team with Kyrie and Love.

It was pretty obvious when the season started they were going to go to the finals with the way that team was setup in the east.

FraziersKnicks
06-06-2015, 07:18 AM
People are gonna line up excuses because other people are so quick to hold it against LeBron for losing in the finals. It's cause and effect.

bluefire7002
06-06-2015, 07:21 AM
Also the amount of homerism for Lebron on that article, I closed the window right when I saw it has his team from last year (Heat) towards the bottom end of that... I don't know how much more help he wants with Wade, Bosh, Haslem and a couple of great shooters. I guess it was too bad they didn't sign an all-star PG neither to complete an east all-star team last season.

Greatest team ever created? probably not, but neither is it bottom 10 of all time supporting casts

bluefire7002
06-06-2015, 07:24 AM
People are gonna line up excuses because other people are so quick to hold it against LeBron for losing in the finals. It's cause and effect.

They dont have to be defending him or anything, he's going to be right back in the finals next year its not like he's gonna go on a drought and never see the finals again in his career. East is not getting stronger anytime soon and I am sure other players are going to join him this off season. Probably even Wade.

Unlike the Warriors... They are probably not going to be back in the finals next year.

apocalypse15
06-06-2015, 08:08 AM
I didn't read the entire article but my guess is there was no mention how weak the east has been. Are all the numbers in the article based off of offensive plus/minus? Cavs were the best team in the east and belong in the finals no need to start crying over supporting casts now.

effen5
06-06-2015, 08:32 AM
A finals lost is a finals lost....

I don't remember people making excuses for jordan when scottie hurt his back during the 98 finals....you know why? Bulls won. Stop making excuses for lebron. A loss is a loss.

ghettosean
06-06-2015, 08:37 AM
Depends on what you are looking at Lebrons entire supporting cast has been killing it from 3pt land 40% and Kyrie close to 50% for the playoffs and with Shump in and Love out there defense has actually gotten better. Not to mention that if you compare the walk to the finals that Lebron has had to the finals compared to the teams Golden State had to face its like night and day.

Cavs were also the best in the east if you minus Korver and Carol on the Hawks. So I'm not sure what we are crying over/apologizing for Lebron already.

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 09:11 AM
When you sleep around like LeBron does your never going to find the perfect wife...

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 09:16 AM
Jordan also played in the triangle. At its core the triangle calls for everyone to touch the ball on every possession - it's a true 5 man on a string type of system. Far different from the give LeBron the ball, stand on the perimeter and let him isolate and make every single decision on the court. Of course the team is going to fall off a cliff when the guy who runs 99% of the plays sits, they have no rhythm without him there as a result. They also rarely touch the ball unless its a stand still kickout. The way LeBrons coaches devise schemes around him is not really conducive for his teammates to find a rhythm and thrive unless they thrive as stand still shooters shooters or big man divers.

elledaddy
06-06-2015, 09:54 AM
I dont give a hell bout whatever crap they trying to sell, it's NO WAY possible that
K Irving
JR Smith
I Shump
T Thompson
T Mosgov
M Deli

Is a worst supporting cast than
Eric Snow
George Lynch
Aaron Mckie
Theo Ratliff
Deke Mutombo
Kevin Ollie

5ass
06-06-2015, 12:34 PM
Jordan also played in the triangle. At its core the triangle calls for everyone to touch the ball on every possession - it's a true 5 man on a string type of system. Far different from the give LeBron the ball, stand on the perimeter and let him isolate and make every single decision on the court. Of course the team is going to fall off a cliff when the guy who runs 99% of the plays sits, they have no rhythm without him there as a result. They also rarely touch the ball unless its a stand still kickout. The way LeBrons coaches devise schemes around him is not really conducive for his teammates to find a rhythm and thrive unless they thrive as stand still shooters shooters or big man divers.

Of course having a coach like Phil Jackson helps with that. James has never had a great coach yet.

Teufelshunde4
06-06-2015, 12:40 PM
Jordan also played in the triangle. At its core the triangle calls for everyone to touch the ball on every possession - it's a true 5 man on a string type of system. Far different from the give LeBron the ball, stand on the perimeter and let him isolate and make every single decision on the court. Of course the team is going to fall off a cliff when the guy who runs 99% of the plays sits, they have no rhythm without him there as a result. They also rarely touch the ball unless its a stand still kickout. The way LeBrons coaches devise schemes around him is not really conducive for his teammates to find a rhythm and thrive unless they thrive as stand still shooters shooters or big man divers.

Bron could thrive in a triangle offense.

mngopher35
06-06-2015, 01:00 PM
I think it's pretty obvious lebron has taken some of the lesser talented teams to the finals. I think it's also pretty obvious his opponents weren't always great in the east and that is part of why it happened. People on here make it one thing or the other to support or bash.

In reality lebron has taken a few teams as far as they could go playing somewhat similar eastern teams and just lost to much better teams once they hit the finals (07 and 15). I don't think any player in history can replace lebron and those teams win it all but who knows. I don't agree with the rankings in the article but I think these cle teams are bottom 10 supporting casts for the finals (this yr due to injury).

PurpleJesus
06-06-2015, 01:00 PM
Its so ironic that Lebron has bounced around in search of a super team a couple times, and the roster has ended up sucking, because super teams are too top heavy, and have no depth.

Hotone1401
06-06-2015, 01:03 PM
i dont give a hell bout whatever crap they trying to sell, it's no way possible that
k irving
jr smith
i shump
t thompson
t mosgov
m deli

is a worst supporting cast than
eric snow
george lynch
aaron mckie
theo ratliff
deke mutombo
kevin ollie

this.

Hotone1401
06-06-2015, 01:05 PM
Bron could thrive in a triangle offense.

His assist numbers would drop.

Hotone1401
06-06-2015, 01:08 PM
a good cast this year? its the 3rd worst ever before Kyrie went down... he now holds the 2nd and 3rd worst ever supporting casts in the finals.

No it isn't. You're asserting this based off a dumb article that is clearly biased. Lebron has had good teams. Stop making excuses for the guy.

Rhino
06-06-2015, 01:19 PM
Nobody and I mean nobody is going to truly feel sorry for Lebron in any way shape or form unless your a complete idiot. He handpicked his team after he got there . He wanted certain additions and he got what he wanted now stop making pathedic excuses for the king. How can you quit after one game seriously after the way the Warriors played even with out Irving the Cavs could easily have beaten Golden State so please just stop already its just sad. To go another step further if Lebron had made a better basketball decision there wouldn't even have been an overtime period and they would have won the game.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2015, 01:25 PM
Jordan also played in the triangle. At its core the triangle calls for everyone to touch the ball on every possession - it's a true 5 man on a string type of system. Far different from the give LeBron the ball, stand on the perimeter and let him isolate and make every single decision on the court. Of course the team is going to fall off a cliff when the guy who runs 99% of the plays sits, they have no rhythm without him there as a result. They also rarely touch the ball unless its a stand still kickout. The way LeBrons coaches devise schemes around him is not really conducive for his teammates to find a rhythm and thrive unless they thrive as stand still shooters shooters or big man divers.

Good post.


I dont give a hell bout whatever crap they trying to sell, it's NO WAY possible that
K Irving
JR Smith
I Shump
T Thompson
T Mosgov
M Deli

Is a worst supporting cast than
Eric Snow
George Lynch
Aaron Mckie
Theo Ratliff
Deke Mutombo
Kevin Ollie

How do those rosters compare defensively?


Nobody and I mean nobody is going to truly feel sorry for Lebron in any way shape or form unless your a complete idiot. He handpicked his team after he got there . He wanted certain additions and he got what he wanted now stop making pathedic excuses for the king. How can you quit after one game seriously after the way the Warriors played even with out Irving the Cavs could easily have beaten Golden State so please just stop already its just sad. To go another step further if Lebron had made a better basketball decision there wouldn't even have been an overtime period and they would have won the game.

Who says you have to feel bad for him? I think it's great that people realize he carried a lackluster roster to the Finals. This Finals loss will add to his legacy in my book.

bucketss
06-06-2015, 01:34 PM
i still have cavs winning. ALOT of people will go in hiding after this series.

TheNumber37
06-06-2015, 01:35 PM
This... is the team he created.

He CAME here to play with Kryie. HE made them GET Love.

Then wasn't happy, sat out til they got JR, Shump and Mozgov...

This is what he wanted. Clearly, he's not as good as he thinks

Rhino
06-06-2015, 01:43 PM
Feel sorry for make excuses all the same in my book both embarrassing to try and prove it only enables the haters to hate more just giving them an avenue to plow through with this discussion. You can think its great that he was able to get to the finals in the weak east with this roster, but that was in my opinion one of the most poorly played opening Finals game ever. For Lebron to go basically 0-10 from the field in OT and turn the ball over 3 times...

koreancabbage
06-06-2015, 02:01 PM
guys need to stop.

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 02:52 PM
Bron could thrive in a triangle offense.

LeBron could thrive in any offense. What's your point? I'm not blaming anyone here - I am saying the reality of the systems LeBron has played in is that he is isolated and asked to create every single play while others stand, watch and wait for their turn. Your not going to get the most out of all 5 guys playing that way, and its represented through this stat. The triangle called for everyone to touch the ball on nearly every possession - that keeps guys in rhythm, that keeps them productive, that allows them to keep producing when MJ takes a seat. You have to devise schemes to get the most out of everybody - not just LeBron. You can't expect LeBron to do everything and then take a seat and have guys ready to create out of nowhere when they haven't been asked to do any of that for 15 straight minutes.

Dade County
06-06-2015, 02:52 PM
When you sleep around like LeBron does your never going to find the perfect wife...


I dont give a hell bout whatever crap they trying to sell, it's NO WAY possible that
K Irving
JR Smith
I Shump
T Thompson
T Mosgov
M Deli

Is a worst supporting cast than
Eric Snow
George Lynch
Aaron Mckie
Theo Ratliff
Deke Mutombo
Kevin Ollie


:laugh2:

Htownballa1622
06-06-2015, 03:11 PM
i still have cavs winning. ALOT of people will go in hiding after this series.

I would Jizz.

Everywhere

blahblahyoutoo
06-06-2015, 03:16 PM
these "stats" are BS.
the cavs were a defensive/offensive play away from taking game 1 from the BEST team during the regular on the road WITHOUT love.

Supreme LA
06-06-2015, 03:28 PM
guys need to stop.

No, it's Lebron apologists like you and the OP who need to stop.

Bostonjorge
06-06-2015, 06:50 PM
This team was built by lebron. Cavs only have 4 players from last years roster.

flea
06-06-2015, 07:09 PM
Why did someone rename the Lebron excuse thread?

But seriously, anyone except giant Lebronophiles will have no sympathy. After he colluded with the other 2 best players in his conference to team up on one team and destroy their conference competition, the Cavs got 5 top 4 picks in the 4 years Lebron was in Miami.

They then turned that massive haul into the balanced squad he currently enjoys: including one of the 5 best scoring guards in the game, one of the 5 best scoring forwards in the game, one of the 2 or 3 best offensive rebounders in the game, one of the 5-7 best perimeter defenders in the game, one of the 5-7 best shooters in the game, and one of the 10-15 best rim protecting and finishing centers in the game. Couple of them got hurt, sure, but nobody is twiddling their violins for the tragedy of Lebron James right now just because of that. He's had among the most talented teams in the league for 5 years running and it doesn't look to stop anytime soon.

Many players have done as much and more with less - that is the nature of the game. Lebron James doesn't deserve to have the best supporting cast throughout the entire NBA playoffs every year - he only thinks he does.

papipapsmanny
06-06-2015, 07:17 PM
Lebron has literally picked his teammates on his last two teams essentially so I don't want to hear it. Plus he faced a depleted Hawks team due to injuries, who may have only beat the Wizards because they lost John Wall then when he played certainly wasn't 100%

Shlumpledink
06-06-2015, 07:18 PM
Jordan is overrated, it just isn't true that the public is willing to accept that fact. We underrate his successors for having better teammates, when Jordan had legendary teammates for his last 3 championships. Even his finals opponents were not as good as teams of this era. Then talk about Jordan's 6 championships as being a definition of his personal greatness, while his teams were clearly better. Hell, even Scottie lead that team within a game of the finals without Jordan, but that is swept under the rug as if it doesn't matter. If Kyrie and Kevin Love made it to within a game of the finals next year without Lebron, you can bet the majority would be discussing why that meant Lebron's achievements this season weren't as important by the same Jordan thumpers.

Jordan is a living mythical being, and its difficult for people to distance themselves from the reality of it because of the sheer number of fans that swear by his greatness no matter what information is put in front of them. I would argue that his pathways to the finals of his championships weren't as tough as Tim Duncan's/Kobe Bryant's/Hakeem Olajuwon's.

I don't want to underrate Jordan, he is clearly top 3 all time, but my life has been spent watching Jordan get continually overrated, even more so after his career by people who didn't live through his career. As if Kareem Abdul Jabaar didn't happen, and as if Lebron James can never be better than Jordan when Lebron is only 30. The confirmation bias is strong when it comes to these greatest of all time arguments, especially the kobe/lebron/jordan discussions.

papipapsmanny
06-06-2015, 07:31 PM
Jordan averaged about over 5 points more a game than Lebron in the playoffs on slightly better shooting, and that includes when Jordan was 31-34, when he was still great but nonetheless declining a bit. Lebron's career isn't finished and doesn't have his decline years incorporated yet.

Offensively Lebron has had a much better supporting cast the last 5 years compared to Jordan.

Pippen was the second best scorer on that Bulls team, and he averaged 16.1 points per game for his career.

Wade and Irving average over 20 a game for their careers and Love and Bosh both around 19 a game for their careers.

Again Pippen has his decline years included but either way. Stop acting like Lebron just takes a bunch of scrubs places

for the last 5 years he has had 2 teammates that were top 5 scorers at theirs positions.

bucketss
06-06-2015, 07:38 PM
Jordan averaged about over 5 points more a game than Lebron in the playoffs on slightly better shooting, and that includes when Jordan was 31-34, when he was still great but nonetheless declining a bit. Lebron's career isn't finished and doesn't have his decline years incorporated yet.

Offensively Lebron has had a much better supporting cast the last 5 years compared to Jordan.

Pippen was the second best scorer on that Bulls team, and he averaged 16.1 points per game for his career.

Wade and Irving average over 20 a game for their careers and Love and Bosh both around 19 a game for their careers.

Again Pippen has his decline years included but either way. Stop acting like Lebron just takes a bunch of scrubs places

for the last 5 years he has had 2 teammates that were top 5 scorers at theirs positions.

remove jordan from the team, bulls still make playoffs win 50+. remove lebron, heat miss playoffs. you could say bosh was injured sure, but they were still 8 games under .500 before bosh injury in what suppose to be the weakest eastern conference in nba history.

flea
06-06-2015, 07:50 PM
remove jordan from the team, bulls still make playoffs win 50+. remove lebron, heat miss playoffs. you could say bosh was injured sure, but they were still 8 games under .500 before bosh injury in what suppose to be the weakest eastern conference in nba history.

Heat didn't just lose Lebron. They lost a frequent starter and big contributor to retirement (Battier), their future HOF 6th man and one of 5 greatest shooters ever in Ray Allen, and Wade's decline was beyond evident before Lebron even left (he can't shoot and can't defend). Then they lost their best player for half the season (Bosh) and their starting PF for the entire season (McRoberts).

Yes they found Whiteside, but he is a journeyman athlete and nothing close to a fundamentally sound player on either side of the court. Yes they got Dragic for like 20 games or whatever, but throwing a bunch of bit parts together for portions of the season doesn't make you a good team. I think they probably overachieved considering how reliant they were on over-the-hill defensive specialists like Anderson, Haslem, and Chalmers.

bucketss
06-06-2015, 08:24 PM
Heat didn't just lose Lebron. They lost a frequent starter and big contributor to retirement (Battier), their future HOF 6th man and one of 5 greatest shooters ever in Ray Allen, and Wade's decline was beyond evident before Lebron even left (he can't shoot and can't defend). Then they lost their best player for half the season (Bosh) and their starting PF for the entire season (McRoberts).

Yes they found Whiteside, but he is a journeyman athlete and nothing close to a fundamentally sound player on either side of the court. Yes they got Dragic for like 20 games or whatever, but throwing a bunch of bit parts together for portions of the season doesn't make you a good team. I think they probably overachieved considering how reliant they were on over-the-hill defensive specialists like Anderson, Haslem, and Chalmers.

battier didn't get much p/t last year anyways. he was big in previous years, and in my previous comment i already brought up bosh's injury, but like i said they were 8 games below .500 even before he went down. if lebron played on that same team this year they would win 50+ games, and make the finals.

flea
06-06-2015, 08:29 PM
battier didn't get much p/t last year anyways. he was big in previous years, and in my previous comment i already brought up bosh's injury, but like i said they were 8 games below .500 even before he went down. if lebron played on that same team this year they would win 50+ games, and make the finals.

Battier got 56 starts last season, which was more than Wade even. He was a big contributor, just not as big as the prior 2 seasons when he was instrumental in defending people that Lebron couldn't. I have no idea how Lebron would have done on this year's Heat - but I guarantee they wouldn't have won as many games as the Cavs did.

Bostonjorge
06-06-2015, 08:29 PM
battier didn't get much p/t last year anyways. he was big in previous years, and in my previous comment i already brought up bosh's injury, but like i said they were 8 games below .500 even before he went down. if lebron played on that same team this year they would win 50+ games, and make the finals.

The east is garbage like that. If Paul George played for Indiana then they have a 50 win team and top seed in the playoffs. Instead without George no playoffs at all. One player can effect the east this much. That's why no one takes the east playoffs seriously.

Bartlee23
06-06-2015, 08:40 PM
Let's look at Jordan's supporting cast versus the teams he played against. First thing no one is mentioning is the East was a lot stronger back then Anyone remember those series against New York/Indiana/Detroit ?? You could even add Cleveland.

Chicago's first championship year Pippen was in his 3rd season and not even close to the player he turned out to be. Horace Grant is the only other player on the team you could mention as a "star". everyone else on that team were role players at best and that team was no better than any team Lebron ever had.

Chicago's second and third year were basically the same rosters with the exception of gaining experience playing with each other and replacing role players for role players. At this point better than Lebron's team but far from the talent of the Miami teams.

After Jordan retired for fill in your own reason ( IMO they could of easily challenged for 9 straight) when Jordan came back and they won their next championship the team had assembled arguably the best team in history and were able to keep it together for two additional years for championships. The teams for the second three peat were definitely stacked. Lebron's teams in Miami though were deep as well.

To say Chicago/Jordan had an easier time in the playoffs/finals is just a silly statement and not true at all. The NBA today is such a different game than was it was in the 90's. Today you can breath on someone and it's foul and the crybabies that play today are comical. If you gave me my choice of playing:

Utah,Phoenix,Seattle,Los Angeles, and Portland or Dallas,Oklahoma City,San Antonio and Golden State I'm taking door number two all day. Look at the all time greats/teams Chicago faced. With the exception of San Antonio IMO I don't rank any of those other teams as good as the others.

Lebron's playoff record for the finals has been a disappointment. He still will be an all-time great but he's not better than Jordan. I could easily name 10 players I'd take before him. It's going to be an interesting offseason to see what the next "decision" is.

kdspurman
06-06-2015, 09:01 PM
the competition he sees in the finals is different than what he goes through in the east. when youre really tested and go against different kinds of competition out west, it really prepares you for anything. he doesnt get that in the east.

his best finals series imo was against OKC thus far, but other than that, nothing really spectacular. he is essentially hand picking his supporting cast, and its good enough to get through the EC with ease. Injuries hurt em this year, but thats how it goes.

this series isnt over yet anyway, so we'll see what happens

buck4493
06-06-2015, 11:13 PM
Preface Jordan is best, however James book still being written.
If James wins this somehow he will have same number of rings Jordan had at same point in career age wise.
OK use the 3-0 versus 3-3in finals again exact same point in careers. My question would be why had Jordan only been to 3 finals compared to 6. Shouldn't it be more of a failure not sniffing finals than getting there and losing??

Again Jordan is best but if LeBron gets 6 entire new story begins, that would be at least 9 finals appearances versus 6. With same number of rings
This hinges on James winning this one. He does its right on track for a shot to be greatest

LA_Raiders
06-06-2015, 11:39 PM
Lol, he has a decent team. he has the ball 80% of the time, that is good for stats but not for wining. This is what happens when you play in the easy...

nickdymez
06-07-2015, 12:30 AM
Why did someone rename the Lebron excuse thread?

But seriously, anyone except giant Lebronophiles will have no sympathy. After he colluded with the other 2 best players in his conference to team up on one team and destroy their conference competition, the Cavs got 5 top 4 picks in the 4 years Lebron was in Miami.

They then turned that massive haul into the balanced squad he currently enjoys: including one of the 5 best scoring guards in the game, one of the 5 best scoring forwards in the game, one of the 2 or 3 best offensive rebounders in the game, one of the 5-7 best perimeter defenders in the game, one of the 5-7 best shooters in the game, and one of the 10-15 best rim protecting and finishing centers in the game. Couple of them got hurt, sure, but nobody is twiddling their violins for the tragedy of Lebron James right now just because of that. He's had among the most talented teams in the league for 5 years running and it doesn't look to stop anytime soon.

Many players have done as much and more with less - that is the nature of the game. Lebron James doesn't deserve to have the best supporting cast throughout the entire NBA playoffs every year - he only thinks he does.
They thought I was trolling, but as you can see from the recent threads I was dead serious.

JordansBulls
06-07-2015, 12:36 AM
This cast isn't as bad as the 2007 squad nor the 2002 and 2003 Nets and at the time the 2004 Pistons. Also the 1975 Warriors or 1978 and 1979 Bullets and Sonics.

basch152
06-07-2015, 12:38 AM
Jordan is overrated, it just isn't true that the public is willing to accept that fact. We underrate his successors for having better teammates, when Jordan had legendary teammates for his last 3 championships. Even his finals opponents were not as good as teams of this era. Then talk about Jordan's 6 championships as being a definition of his personal greatness, while his teams were clearly better. Hell, even Scottie lead that team within a game of the finals without Jordan, but that is swept under the rug as if it doesn't matter. If Kyrie and Kevin Love made it to within a game of the finals next year without Lebron, you can bet the majority would be discussing why that meant Lebron's achievements this season weren't as important by the same Jordan thumpers.

Jordan is a living mythical being, and its difficult for people to distance themselves from the reality of it because of the sheer number of fans that swear by his greatness no matter what information is put in front of them. I would argue that his pathways to the finals of his championships weren't as tough as Tim Duncan's/Kobe Bryant's/Hakeem Olajuwon's.

I don't want to underrate Jordan, he is clearly top 3 all time, but my life has been spent watching Jordan get continually overrated, even more so after his career by people who didn't live through his career. As if Kareem Abdul Jabaar didn't happen, and as if Lebron James can never be better than Jordan when Lebron is only 30. The confirmation bias is strong when it comes to these greatest of all time arguments, especially the kobe/lebron/jordan discussions.

No, they were not within a game of going to the finals. They lost in the second round.

Then they added MJ back and became the best team in NBA history winning 72 games and then smacking the teams in the playoffs going 15-3.

Stop trying to downplay MJ because his team was pretty good without him when with him they were legendary.

Oh, and the teams they beat in the finals were not bad teams. They beat the Stockton/Malone led Jazz twice and the Payton/kemp led supersonics, both very good teams.

flea
06-07-2015, 12:41 AM
If Lebron's cast is so bad it really makes you wonder why his team is better on both sides of the court when he is on the bench during the playoffs (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2015/). FYI this is the 2nd year in a row his offense has been better when he sits. Obviously I'm not saying his team is better without him, but look at his +/- in years where he actually played very well - it is concerning at the very least.

More-Than-Most
06-07-2015, 01:25 AM
This cast isn't as bad as the 2007 squad nor the 2002 and 2003 Nets and at the time the 2004 Pistons. Also the 1975 Warriors or 1978 and 1979 Bullets and Sonics.

the stats and numbers say different. A lot different.

KB24PG16
06-07-2015, 01:58 AM
can't give bron a pass for his supporting cast for any of his finals teams after 07, dude chooses his team and teammates.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2015, 03:46 AM
Let's look at Jordan's supporting cast versus the teams he played against. First thing no one is mentioning is the East was a lot stronger back then Anyone remember those series against New York/Indiana/Detroit ?? You could even add Cleveland.

Chicago's first championship year Pippen was in his 3rd season and not even close to the player he turned out to be. Horace Grant is the only other player on the team you could mention as a "star". everyone else on that team were role players at best and that team was no better than any team Lebron ever had.

Chicago's second and third year were basically the same rosters with the exception of gaining experience playing with each other and replacing role players for role players. At this point better than Lebron's team but far from the talent of the Miami teams.

After Jordan retired for fill in your own reason ( IMO they could of easily challenged for 9 straight) when Jordan came back and they won their next championship the team had assembled arguably the best team in history and were able to keep it together for two additional years for championships. The teams for the second three peat were definitely stacked. Lebron's teams in Miami though were deep as well.

To say Chicago/Jordan had an easier time in the playoffs/finals is just a silly statement and not true at all. The NBA today is such a different game than was it was in the 90's. Today you can breath on someone and it's foul and the crybabies that play today are comical. If you gave me my choice of playing:

Utah,Phoenix,Seattle,Los Angeles, and Portland or Dallas,Oklahoma City,San Antonio and Golden State I'm taking door number two all day. Look at the all time greats/teams Chicago faced. With the exception of San Antonio IMO I don't rank any of those other teams as good as the others.

Lebron's playoff record for the finals has been a disappointment. He still will be an all-time great but he's not better than Jordan. I could easily name 10 players I'd take before him. It's going to be an interesting offseason to see what the next "decision" is.

outside 1991, the MJ led Bulls were straight up better than any team they faced in the finals.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2015, 03:48 AM
It was already one of the worst casts I have seen with a gimpy Irving. It is now easily the worst in modern history.

Call it excuses, call it what you want. LeBron has a bunch of guys who are either cast offs, or straight up role players getting minutes, and his team is dead now.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2015, 03:49 AM
can't give bron a pass for his supporting cast for any of his finals teams after 07, dude chooses his team and teammates.

I would agree, but his top players went down this playoffs. That actually matters.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-07-2015, 04:06 AM
So you are saying in another words that now he's allowed to lose?


I love how they're already getting excuses lined up. Lol

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-07-2015, 04:11 AM
i still have cavs winning. ALOT of people will go in hiding after this series.


Account bet?

ThaDubs
06-07-2015, 04:18 AM
Preface Jordan is best, however James book still being written.
If James wins this somehow he will have same number of rings Jordan had at same point in career age wise.
OK use the 3-0 versus 3-3in finals again exact same point in careers. My question would be why had Jordan only been to 3 finals compared to 6. Shouldn't it be more of a failure not sniffing finals than getting there and losing??

Again Jordan is best but if LeBron gets 6 entire new story begins, that would be at least 9 finals appearances versus 6. With same number of rings
This hinges on James winning this one. He does its right on track for a shot to be greatest

Why are you using rings to decide who's better?

KB24PG16
06-07-2015, 05:38 AM
I would agree, but his top players went down this playoffs. That actually matters.

agreed, but the article uses love/irving in their stats for supporting casts. In regards to the series with love/irving healthy, dubs still probably win in 6.

buck4493
06-07-2015, 06:49 AM
These are best two ever so it will matter

Much like Brady and Manning

MonroeFAN
06-07-2015, 06:58 AM
Why are LAL fans so anti Lebron? It's a topic of discussion, no one is excusing him.

Kobe missed the playoffs entirely with a similar roster, stfu already.

Gagan136
06-07-2015, 07:21 AM
This Irving injury has created an easy cop-out for Cavs fans, im just surprised they are using it already after only one game.

Bostonjorge
06-07-2015, 07:26 AM
Why are LAL fans so anti Lebron? It's a topic of discussion, no one is excusing him.

Kobe missed the playoffs entirely with a similar roster, stfu already.

When did Kobe play in the east?

MonroeFAN
06-07-2015, 07:31 AM
The only people who care about that are fans of western conference basketball. You have a set of your own advantages.

MonroeFAN
06-07-2015, 07:33 AM
Do you not see that you are the one making excuses, not me?

Interesting.

Teeboy1487
06-07-2015, 08:29 AM
Lebron had a great supporting cast going into the playoffs. It's just so unfortunate the way Irving and Love went down. I'm not saying anything until the series is truly over. I wonder would he leave Cleveland again if this happens again next year?

jimm120
06-07-2015, 08:57 AM
Lebron , at this very moment, has a supporting class similar to the one Melo had in 2012-13 and 2013-14.

2012-13, we had good jr smith as our #2 and we won 54 games. Of course, he goes out partying with Rihanna and elbows. Celtic in the playoffs, thus becoming bad jr by the end of round 1.

2013-14, we had bad jr smith for the whole season aside for a 5 week stretch at the end, which melo and good jr allowed us to get to 1 game within the playoffs.

If a good jr smith and melo can be that good, then that means Lebron might have some help. If good jr smith can help a top 10 melo that much, then a good jr smith should help a top 2 Lebron even more. the question now is if good jr smith will show up. He's been pretty ok with the cavs, though inconsistent

Bartlee23
06-07-2015, 10:27 AM
outside 1991, the MJ led Bulls were straight up better than any team they faced in the finals.

I don't recall saying anything about that? People on here were claiming the teams Lebron faced vs the 90's teams were better. I beg to differ. The Eastern conference was much better, the style of basketball played was different and with the exception of San Antonio in the finals IMO every team Chicago/Jordan faced was much better.

Lebron left Cleveland to form a super team that IMO was a major disappoint from what they wanted to accomplish. If not for Allen's shot,Lebron could very easily be sitting with one championship ring with a team built with superstars and a deep bench. Cleveland IMO will not be winning this year either. Let's say Irving goes through the struggles Rose had with injuries or other explosive guards? Let's say Love doesn't come back? What if Lebron bails again on the team?

I know these things may never happen and probably won't but after " decision #1" don't hold your breath. That 2 for 6 record isn't looking too impressive to me. One coming in a shortened season.

MDD
06-07-2015, 10:46 AM
Everybody was talking how unstoppable the Cavs are even with a injured Kyrie when the was beating the east and how great Delly,Shumpert,J.R.,Mozgow being an top center Thompson should get max money now he have no helpcenter

kdspurman
06-07-2015, 10:47 AM
It was already one of the worst casts I have seen with a gimpy Irving. It is now easily the worst in modern history.

Call it excuses, call it what you want. LeBron has a bunch of guys who are either cast offs, or straight up role players getting minutes, and his team is dead now.

Those same guys have played very well the last few series though. Smith/Shump/Thompson etc... all were very impactful. Let's say Love & Irving were healthy, I feel like there would still be some saying "well they aren't that deep, he only has 2 players next to him who are good" Of course no one expects them to win now (though I still wouldn't count them out).

Like last year in the ECF, maybe people forget both Wade & Bosh played really well (Wade was very big that series), and there were some games Lebron struggled. Then the finals comes, Wade has a couple good games (helped with a big run in the 3rd quarter of Game 3 while Lebron sat), Bosh didn't really do much outside the first 2 games, but guys like Allen/Lewis (Lewis is probably the reason it wasn't a sweep) stepped up. but then the talk is he was doing it by himself and had a weak team.

I just don't like that argument cause if it wasn't for his supporting cast, there's a good chance they don't play in the finals. I get Wade/Bosh struggled, and that was due to the defense, but Lebron had his struggles as well, people just don't realize due to his ending stat line.

No one thought their team was weak after the ECF, cause they'd eliminated a team who was their biggest competition out east and was pretty decent. The predictions of the finals were pretty close

MDD
06-07-2015, 10:53 AM
Now none of these guys are good enough? No they are coming back down when there is real pressure put on them.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-07-2015, 11:32 AM
Why are LAL fans so anti Lebron? It's a topic of discussion, no one is excusing him.

Kobe missed the playoffs entirely with a similar roster, stfu already.


Lol, Kobe's team was one of the worst rosters in the history of the league, and he plays in the most competitive conference In NBA history. Fail

FraziersKnicks
06-07-2015, 12:52 PM
Lol, Kobe's team was one of the worst rosters in the history of the league, and he plays in the most competitive conference In NBA history. Fail

2004-05 Lakers (not including Kobe): 26.8 win shares
2014-15 Cavs (not including LeBron and injured Love and Irving): 21.9 win shares

LeBron's current supporting cast is clearly inferior to Kobe's in 2004-05. Try again.

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 01:38 PM
outside 1991, the MJ led Bulls were straight up better than any team they faced in the finals.

Easy to say that after they win. What were the odds before hand? I would imagine they were similar to the odds we've seen with LeBron in Miami - either slightly favored or very small underdog (not sure if Miami was ever an underdog).


2004-05 Lakers (not including Kobe): 26.8 win shares
2014-15 Cavs (not including LeBron and injured Love and Irving): 21.9 win shares

LeBron's current supporting cast is clearly inferior to Kobe's in 2004-05. Try again.

Explain why this is supposed to mean anything please. If you can't, please don't toss these stupid numbers out again.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-07-2015, 02:50 PM
Lol, Kobe's team was one of the worst rosters in the history of the league, and he plays in the most competitive conference In NBA history. Fail

2004-05 Lakers (not including Kobe): 26.8 win shares
2014-15 Cavs (not including LeBron and injured Love and Irving): 21.9 win shares

LeBron's current supporting cast is clearly inferior to Kobe's in 2004-05. Try again.

:facepalm:

FraziersKnicks
06-07-2015, 04:38 PM
Easy to say that after they win. What were the odds before hand? I would imagine they were similar to the odds we've seen with LeBron in Miami - either slightly favored or very small underdog (not sure if Miami was ever an underdog).



Explain why this is supposed to mean anything please. If you can't, please don't toss these stupid numbers out again.

Kobe's supporting cast in 2004-05 provided more wins than the players LeBron is currently playing with in these finals. What's hard to understand about that?

Caron Butler and Lamar Odom are better than any healthy player on this current Cavs team outside of LeBron.

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 05:31 PM
Kobe's supporting cast in 2004-05 provided more wins than the players LeBron is currently playing with in these finals. What's hard to understand about that?

Caron Butler and Lamar Odom are better than any healthy player on this current Cavs team outside of LeBron.

lol, "provided more wins"? You seriously buy that?

Not saying the cast is better or not, but I'm certainly not taking that WS analysis as proof of anything.

Odom and Butler were better but I'd say JR, Shump, Moz, TT are all better than anyone else that played minutes on that Laker team.

kingkenny01
06-07-2015, 05:53 PM
I don't understand how people could blame lebron if he loses this finals. That's ridiculous he has very little help. I understand blaming him for 2011 or maybe 2014 but not this.

FraziersKnicks
06-07-2015, 06:02 PM
I don't understand how people could blame lebron if he loses this finals. That's ridiculous he has very little help. I understand blaming him for 2011 or maybe 2014 but not this.

I don't think he deserves any blame for last year... 28/8/4 and 2 steals on 57/52/79 shooting. The Spurs played some of the most incredible basketball I have ever seen. The Spurs deserve credit.

As for 2011, that's on Bron, but I don't think even his biggest fans can argue that one.

FraziersKnicks
06-07-2015, 06:05 PM
lol, "provided more wins"? You seriously buy that?

Not saying the cast is better or not, but I'm certainly not taking that WS analysis as proof of anything.

Odom and Butler were better but I'd say JR, Shump, Moz, TT are all better than anyone else that played minutes on that Laker team.

I think it provides us a bit of evidence that the casts are a lot closer than many Lakers fans want to admit. WS aren't the be all and end all but it certainly provides us a bit of narrative.

I agree on your 2nd paragraph.

Supreme LA
06-07-2015, 06:46 PM
Kobe's supporting cast in 2004-05 provided more wins than the players LeBron is currently playing with in these finals. What's hard to understand about that?

Caron Butler and Lamar Odom are better than any healthy player on this current Cavs team outside of LeBron.

What the hell does this have to do with anything????

So you're making the argument that Kobe's best two teammates in Butler and Odom during the 05' season are better than the entire supporting cast of Lebron except for Kyrie and Love? This is supposed to be in support of Lebron somehow?

FraziersKnicks
06-07-2015, 07:09 PM
What the hell does this have to do with anything????

So you're making the argument that Kobe's best two teammates in Butler and Odom during the 05' season are better than the entire supporting cast of Lebron except for Kyrie and Love? This is supposed to be in support of Lebron somehow?

It was in response to dillusionist saying Kobe had one of the worst rosters of all time when he missed the playoffs.

I'm saying Butler or Odom would easily be LeBron's best teammate on this Cavs team now Irving and Love have gone down. I actually think they're quite comparable rubbish teams (Cavs without Irving/Love of course). The Lakers had the better #2 and #3 players in Odom and Butler but this Cavs team has a little bit more quality in depth.

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2015, 07:11 PM
Why are LAL fans so anti Lebron? It's a topic of discussion, no one is excusing him.

Kobe missed the playoffs entirely with a similar roster, stfu already.

:yawn:

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2015, 07:12 PM
:facepalm:

:laugh2: yep

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2015, 07:13 PM
Lol, Kobe's team was one of the worst rosters in the history of the league, and he plays in the most competitive conference In NBA history. Fail

👌🏽

FraziersKnicks
06-07-2015, 07:19 PM
It's embarrassing how little most Lakers fans bring to debates. They do the genuinely good Lakers fans on this forum a disservice.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-07-2015, 08:00 PM
2004-05 Lakers (not including Kobe): 26.8 win shares
2014-15 Cavs (not including LeBron and injured Love and Irving): 21.9 win shares

LeBron's current supporting cast is clearly inferior to Kobe's in 2004-05. Try again.

So much fail in one post where do I start? First of all, you added win shares for a team comprised of three players that played less than half the season with the Cavs. Of course they're not going to accumulate massive win share totals in 38 to 40 games. Also, during the regular season Love and Irving were there so the role players were able to get more win shares. If Irving and Love were not there the whole season and this Cavs team only had 21 win share, they would be comparable to that Lakers team. But that is not the case no matter how you try to avoid the truth.

You are also trying to make it sound as if LeBron has accomplished anything with this roster that Kobe didn't. This is the first time we get to see him playing with the team comparable to that 04-05 team. Let's see how he does

Hotone1401
06-07-2015, 09:00 PM
It was in response to dillusionist saying Kobe had one of the worst rosters of all time when he missed the playoffs.

I'm saying Butler or Odom would easily be LeBron's best teammate on this Cavs team now Irving and Love have gone down. I actually think they're quite comparable rubbish teams (Cavs without Irving/Love of course). The Lakers had the better #2 and #3 players in Odom and Butler but this Cavs team has a little bit more quality in depth.

No, this Cavs team still has more depth at many positions. Your assertions are false.

Hotone1401
06-07-2015, 09:05 PM
It's embarrassing how little most Lakers fans bring to debates. They do the genuinely good Lakers fans on this forum a disservice.

It's silly for you to generalize most Laker fans based on a few frequent posters who don't represent the entire fan base. You're asserting that the majority of Laker fans do this, yet you have no measure of the proportion that these Lakers make up of the fan base.

And by making such a negative claim, are you yourself contributing to the discussion?

More-Than-Most
06-07-2015, 09:20 PM
lol, "provided more wins"? You seriously buy that?

Not saying the cast is better or not, but I'm certainly not taking that WS analysis as proof of anything.

Odom and Butler were better but I'd say JR, Shump, Moz, TT are all better than anyone else that played minutes on that Laker team.

Lol you are not buying stats that provide weight to an opinion that helps make his case and hurt everything you have been saying... Shocking.

More-Than-Most
06-07-2015, 09:23 PM
So much fail in one post where do I start? First of all, you added win shares for a team comprised of three players that played less than half the season with the Cavs. Of course they're not going to accumulate massive win share totals in 38 to 40 games. Also, during the regular season Love and Irving were there so the role players were able to get more win shares. If Irving and Love were not there the whole season and this Cavs team only had 21 win share, they would be comparable to that Lakers team. But that is not the case no matter how you try to avoid the truth.

You are also trying to make it sound as if LeBron has accomplished anything with this roster that Kobe didn't. This is the first time we get to see him playing with the team comparable to that 04-05 team. Let's see how he does

did you forget about that cavs team from the first finals trip that had the worst supporting cast of all time?

numba1CHANGsta
06-07-2015, 09:32 PM
Oh please, this douche has had one of the best supporting casts over the past 4-5 years, you guys always find a way to make this guy look like a GOD but in fact he's not. He had one of the best supporting casts with MIA and went 2-2 in the Finals smh

Hotone1401
06-07-2015, 10:38 PM
Lebron's teammates have played great all postseason and have been spectacular in games 1 & 2 of the Finals so I don't know where people get the idea his team is garbage.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2015, 11:04 PM
Lebron's teammates have played great all postseason and have been spectacular in games 1 & 2 of the Finals so I don't know where people get the idea his team is garbage.

uh, his bench was pure **** in game 1. And he has 2 starters player that never would have if Love/Irving were healthy

It's the worst supporting cast I have ever seen for a player in the finals.

Hotone1401
06-07-2015, 11:25 PM
uh, his bench was pure **** in game 1. And he has 2 starters player that never would have if Love/Irving were healthy

It's the worst supporting cast I have ever seen for a player in the finals.

And despite your own personal assessment of the talent they've played great defensively and out-hustled the Warrios on the boards and to loose balls. The Cavs team has been great and they deserve some credit.

zn23
06-07-2015, 11:28 PM
uh, his bench was pure **** in game 1. And he has 2 starters player that never would have if Love/Irving were healthy

It's the worst supporting cast I have ever seen for a player in the finals.

LeBron's team in 07 was much worse imo. But this team is quite bad.

The Cavs might have destroyed this team with Love and Irving healthy. Still a long series to go, but the Cavs are overachieving big time. You have to wonder how long that's going to last.

Hotone1401
06-07-2015, 11:49 PM
LeBron's team in 07 was much worse imo. But this team is quite bad.

The Cavs might have destroyed this team with Love and Irving healthy. Still a long series to go, but the Cavs are overachieving big time. You have to wonder how long that's going to last.

They've been playing great all postseason so there's no reason why it has to end anytime soon. As long as they put forth the effort, their defense and rebounding will be there.

I picked Cavs to win this series from the start. The Warrios are just one dimensional and the Cavs are stifling on defense.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-08-2015, 12:52 AM
Lebron's teammates have played great all postseason and have been spectacular in games 1 & 2 of the Finals so I don't know where people get the idea his team is garbage.

uh, his bench was pure **** in game 1. And he has 2 starters player that never would have if Love/Irving were healthy

It's the worst supporting cast I have ever seen for a player in the finals.


You're the biggest Lebron homer on earth. Get real bro, the Cavs have a great team.

FlashBolt
06-08-2015, 01:00 AM
You're the biggest Lebron homer on earth. Get real bro, the Cavs have a great team.

Lmao, you are a JOKE. This current Cavs team wouldn't be jack if James wasn't operating on it. Homer? Can you name one Finals roster that is worse than this one besides the 2007 one? Oh wait.. you can't.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-08-2015, 01:02 AM
His teammates are downright terrible offensively outside of Mozgov, who's being set up very nicely.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-08-2015, 01:02 AM
You're the biggest Lebron homer on earth. Get real bro, the Cavs have a great team.

Funny that you're saying this considering that you said that the Warriors had the far superior team recently and were going to beat down the Cavs :laugh2:

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-08-2015, 01:07 AM
You're the biggest Lebron homer on earth. Get real bro, the Cavs have a great team.

Lmao, you are a JOKE. This current Cavs team wouldn't be jack if James wasn't operating on it. Homer? Can you name one Finals roster that is worse than this one besides the 2007 one? Oh wait.. you can't.

Oh please go back from the 60's till now and you'll find plenty of teams in the finals with a worst roster. You Lebron fan are the cause of all the hate the man gets. You guys over rate the **** out of him and continually underrate his team. You guys are ridiculous

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-08-2015, 01:10 AM
You're the biggest Lebron homer on earth. Get real bro, the Cavs have a great team.

Funny that you're saying this considering that you said that the Warriors had the far superior team recently and were going to beat down the Cavs :laugh2:

The Warriors are still the better team and are going to win the series. They were one shot away from a 2-0 lead and have played like ****.

JLynn943
06-08-2015, 01:19 AM
You're the biggest Lebron homer on earth. Get real bro, the Cavs have a great team.

Do you honestly believe the things you say? When healthy, sure, they're great. This team right now isn't even as good as the team Iverson carried to the finals and lost with 4-1, and that's pretty much universally regarded as a weak finals team.

Tony_Starks
06-08-2015, 01:27 AM
So when we talk supporting cast apparently their defensive contributions or play in the clutch don't count right? Because minus those two small areas, yes I agree the Cavs supporting cast is horrible....

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-08-2015, 01:34 AM
did you forget about that cavs team from the first finals trip that had the worst supporting cast of all time?
You do know that the stat that you provided only accounts for the 3 rounds of the playoffs right? So a total of 15 games is enough to judge that? I don't believe so.

And no, according to your own stat, Larry Johnson dragged the worst supporting cast ever to the finals. And to top it off he got them to a 7th game. Maybe Lebron can do the same as a great Larry Johnson. Only time will tell.

G_S_W
06-08-2015, 01:35 AM
Lebron can take 14 random players from a rec league and go to the finals. Hyperbole, yes, but just about any 14 players in the association + lebron = nba playoffs berth.

How many players in the history of the game can dominate in the way lebron can? Just a handful. Jordan, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem.

The Cavs are 1-1 against a pre-ordained champion with guys like mozgov, tristan, shump and jr. And they almost pulled out game 1, and could've been up 2-0. This is ON THE ROAD.

The cavs can win this series. Yes, us warriors' fans are living a dream season right now, but I sometimes suspect that the coronation of Steph and Kerr as co-golden boys of the nba is rash, and far too premature.

I'm a basketball fan first and foremost, and I have to say that Lebron's growing competitive fire and singlemindedness is incredibly impressive.

He's 100% playing to win, rather than playing not to fail. I still think this is the Dubs' series to lose, but I don't think Steph has the experience or single mindedness of Lebron just yet. Steph may or may not get there. Lebron is showing us that even with a significant physical decline, his basketball IQ and sheer desire to win are increasing exponentially.

I'm actually pretty excited that this is 1-1. The warriors have to show they can rebound and Kerr has to show that he can make adjustments after nearly dropping 2 straight games on his home court.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-08-2015, 01:38 AM
So when we talk supporting cast apparently their defensive contributions or play in the clutch don't count right? Because minus those two small areas, yes I agree the Cavs supporting cast is horrible....

You know if the Cavs win then Lebron did it all by himself and lead these bums to victory. But if they lose, its these bums fault. It's how it always goes. I guess Lebron guards all 5 positions.

Supreme LA
06-08-2015, 01:50 AM
His teammates are downright terrible offensively outside of Mozgov, who's being set up very nicely.

Who on the Warriors has been great offensively aside from Thompson and Curry (played like **** in game 2). Atleast the Cavs players contribute a great amount defensively and rebound the ball. They've also hit key shots throughout the entire postseason.

Supreme LA
06-08-2015, 01:56 AM
They've been playing great all postseason so there's no reason why it has to end anytime soon. As long as they put forth the effort, their defense and rebounding will be there.

I picked Cavs to win this series from the start. The Warrios are just one dimensional and the Cavs are stifling on defense.

I also picked the Cavs to win the series from the start. I never believed in all of the hype with the Dubs because they can easily shoot themselves out of the game as we saw tonight.

I've seen a lot from this Cavs team throughout the playoffs to convince me that they have enough fight in them to win the series. As long as they continue to lockdown the paint with their bigs and rebound the ball, I see them winning this series in 6 games.

While these players don't have the numbers to garner the respect from stat guys, their heart, hustle, and discipline have certainly earned mine. It's crazy how underrated these Cavs are.

Lebron has been tremendous and he will continue to be because the Dubs have no answer for him. He certainly couldn't win these games without the play and effort from the rest of his team though.

Sactown
06-08-2015, 01:57 AM
The Warriors are still the better team and are going to win the series. They were one shot away from a 2-0 lead and have played like ****.

Cleveland was also one shot away from me up 2-0?

Supreme LA
06-08-2015, 01:59 AM
Cleveland was also one shot away from me up 2-0?

He's referring to Lebron's and Jr's missed shots in the closing seconds in regulation of game 1.

G_S_W
06-08-2015, 02:05 AM
I also picked the Cavs to win the series from the start. I never believed in all of the hype with the Dubs because they can easily shoot themselves out of the game as we saw tonight.

I've seen a lot from this Cavs team throughout the playoffs to convince me that they have enough fight in them to win the series. As long as they continue to lockdown the paint with their bigs and rebound the ball, I see them winning this series in 6 games.

While these players don't have the numbers to garner the respect from stat guys, their heart, hustle, and discipline have certainly earned mine. It's crazy how underrated these Cavs are.

Lebron has been tremendous and he will continue to be because the Dubs have no answer for him. He certainly couldn't win these games without the play and effort from the rest of his team though.

Lebron went out of his way to show respect for his teammates in the post game interview. You can tell he is genuinely impressed.

I despise Delly, but it's difficult not to respect his tenacity.

Supreme LA
06-08-2015, 02:14 AM
Lebron went out of his way to show respect for his teammates in the post game interview. You can tell he is genuinely impressed.

I despise Delly, but it's difficult not to respect his tenacity.

I agree. It's great to see a cast of teammates who come through for a great player who is giving everything he has. Lebron played great and his teammates were right there with him as they have been throughout the playoffs.

Delly may not be Kyrie but he's tough as nails and gives everything he has on defense. He also hit two big time floaters and killed some of the Dubs momentum when the game was close.

Nick O
06-08-2015, 02:42 AM
I dont give a hell bout whatever crap they trying to sell, it's NO WAY possible that
K Irving
JR Smith
I Shump
T Thompson
T Mosgov
M Deli

Is a worst supporting cast than
Eric Snow
George Lynch
Aaron Mckie
Theo Ratliff
Deke Mutombo
Kevin Ollie

Mutumbo is one of top 3 best defensive players of all time tho

mngopher35
06-08-2015, 02:49 AM
Who on the Warriors has been great offensively aside from Thompson and Curry (played like **** in game 2). Atleast the Cavs players contribute a great amount defensively and rebound the ball. They've also hit key shots throughout the entire postseason.


Iggy in game 1 played amazing, he was better than Thompson (who killed it tonight).


I also picked the Cavs to win the series from the start. I never believed in all of the hype with the Dubs because they can easily shoot themselves out of the game as we saw tonight.

I've seen a lot from this Cavs team throughout the playoffs to convince me that they have enough fight in them to win the series. As long as they continue to lockdown the paint with their bigs and rebound the ball, I see them winning this series in 6 games.

While these players don't have the numbers to garner the respect from stat guys, their heart, hustle, and discipline have certainly earned mine. It's crazy how underrated these Cavs are.

Lebron has been tremendous and he will continue to be because the Dubs have no answer for him. He certainly couldn't win these games without the play and effort from the rest of his team though.


I still have Golden State winning and think they are better but I do agree about the role players of Cleveland to an extent. This is basically old school Cleveland Lebron ball. The difference is Lebron has grown a bit as a player/leader and this cast is probably better than any of the other one's due to their defense (and great offensive rebounding). I still think they are outmatched but I think it should be a bit more competitive than I originally did (GS in 5 is what I had but now I think longer).

Right now J.R, Jones, and kinda Shumpert (he seems nervous or something, hesitating/passing up shots he would normally take) are the only ones really providing spacing which is causing problems offensively. J.R. has made some bonehead plays but they need someone like him to just give the ball to a couple times when lebron sits, especially since other play makers are delly and shump right now. Mozgov has been terrific so far in the finals, I think he has been the next best after Lebron (I don't know for sure but I'd guess he has most points and is only player shooting over 50% for Cle). Tristan Thompson plays great defense, attacks the glass and plays within his role. James Jones and Delly played good tonight.

Overall so far in the playoffs these guys have proven to make some big plays/shots, hustle/rebound, and play great defense. Lebron still has a very heavy load offensively but so far they have given him a lot more help than I originally thought they would. If Shumpert and JR return to how they were playing earlier in the playoffs Cleveland should be able to win another game at least. They will be at now home and that might help get back into rhythm on offense a bit. I don't think they can count on Lebron playing quite this much through 6+ games or Golden State (especially Curry tonight) to keep playing this poorly.

Munkeysuit
06-08-2015, 04:51 AM
Yea apparently there are some people on here that are too high up on their horses to bother to read an article on Lebron yet they have so much awesome insight about the guy that they can frequent these forums "irresponsibly gossiping" at best! with your advanced stats and google educated NBA history and sit there and pretend to know it all. You wana know something you don't know? i bet you don't even realize how ignorantly hateful you all seem just typing away without a care in the world because he's just a guy on TV and your a basketball know it all.

Get real people, you don't know jack, you just come on here to feel like you do.

Supreme LA
06-08-2015, 04:56 AM
Yea apparently there are some people on here that are too high up on their horses to bother to read an article on Lebron yet they have so much awesome insight about the guy that they can frequent these forums "irresponsibly gossiping" at best! with your advanced stats and google educated NBA history and sit there and pretend to know it all. You wana know something you don't know? i bet you don't even realize how ignorantly hateful you all seem just typing away without a care in the world because he's just a guy on TV and your a basketball know it all.

Get real people, you don't know jack, you just come on here to feel like you do.

What in the world are you talking about???:confused:

PurpleLynch
06-08-2015, 07:29 AM
Read the articles and I agree,Lebron had to lead a bunch of role players/scrubs throughout his career to the playoffs and even to the Finals(except for Miami).
Now,calculating with few parameters how much a team is talented or not,it's completely useless.
There are a lot of factors involving the playoffs,not just +/- stats.

And still,Iverson's lead 76ers are still ranked above these Cavs. I smell a little bias in the articles,that's all.

RLundi
06-08-2015, 07:59 AM
He's referring to Lebron's and Jr's missed shots in the closing seconds in regulation of game 1.

No he's not. He's referring to GS almost being up 2-0 had they converted something, anything at the end of overtime yesterday.

This is where Illusionist is a contradicting, backwards thinker: the Cavs are also one shot away from being 2-0 against what Illusionist calls "the better team" that is "going to win the series." News flash: both teams have played like ****, but the Cavs have done enough to earn a split. The entire year, people have called GS the far better team. You can't change it now just to discredit LeBron and the Cavs. If they beat GS, it will have been a monumental achievement for LeBron, career-defining even. But I'm sure there will still be idiots like Illusionist that refuse to yield and give Bron the credit he deserves.

ewing
06-08-2015, 08:41 AM
Yea apparently there are some people on here that are too high up on their horses to bother to read an article on Lebron yet they have so much awesome insight about the guy that they can frequent these forums "irresponsibly gossiping" at best! with your advanced stats and google educated NBA history and sit there and pretend to know it all. You wana know something you don't know? i bet you don't even realize how ignorantly hateful you all seem just typing away without a care in the world because he's just a guy on TV and your a basketball know it all.

Get real people, you don't know jack, you just come on here to feel like you do.

my horse is really high

SLY WILLIAMS
06-08-2015, 09:37 AM
Lebron is playing a great all around game (scoring, assists, and rebounds) especially for the first 3.5 quarters. With that said in the first two games I often expect him to miss before he even shoots in the 4th quarter and OT. When a Cavs fan said late in the game thread he would rather him make his great assists than shoot I thought to myself that is because it feels like other guys shots have a better chance of going down.

Kenny
06-08-2015, 09:46 AM
Lebron is playing a great all around game (scoring, assists, and rebounds) especially for the first 3.5 quarters. With that said in the first two games I often expect him to miss before he even shoots in the 4th quarter and OT. When a Cavs fan said late in the game thread he would rather him make his great assists than shoot I thought to myself that is because it feels like other guys shots have a better chance of going down.

Lebron was getting fouled a ton in the 4th which wasn't getting called. On those drives from the top of the key Iguodola would stick his forearm into Lebron's chest to stop his momentum which is a hand check foul not being called.

Lebron hit big shots in the Chicago and Atlanta series.

The notion that Lebron isn't clutch is a false one.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 10:01 AM
Lebron's supporting cast lacks offense, but a bunch of those guys can D up. It is not a surprise that they are better defensively minus Kyrie and Love and adding Delladova and Thompson to the starting lineup. Guys like that are very underrated, especially someone like Delladova who doesn't get the stats, but is a stout perimeter defender and plays with constant energy and hustle. People love stats so a guy like that flied under the radar, but value is value and sometimes it can come on the defensive end without blocks and steals.

koreancabbage
06-08-2015, 10:05 AM
Lebron was getting fouled a ton in the 4th which wasn't getting called. On those drives from the top of the key Iguodola would stick his forearm into Lebron's chest to stop his momentum which is a hand check foul not being called.

Lebron hit big shots in the Chicago and Atlanta series.

The notion that Lebron isn't clutch is a false one.

its all over the media that Lebron didn't get the benefit of the doubt.

i'm sure he was as frustrated last night as Steph trying to score lol

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 10:08 AM
Mutumbo is one of top 3 best defensive players of all time tho

Exactly... defense matters. Obviously both those teams could use another offensive weapon or two, but lets not act like they are a much of scrubs. Lebron right now has a ton of good defenders and/or shooters surrounding him on the court. He is a great player. He can make that work.

You can see how underrated players like Delladova and Tristan Thompson are on a stage like this. They play D, they rebound, and they hustle. It can go along way.

Tony_Starks
06-08-2015, 10:14 AM
Lebron's supporting cast lacks offense, but a bunch of those guys can D up. It is not a surprise that they are better defensively minus Kyrie and Love and adding Delladova and Thompson to the starting lineup. Guys like that are very underrated, especially someone like Delladova who doesn't get the stats, but is a stout perimeter defender and plays with constant energy and hustle. People love stats so a guy like that flied under the radar, but value is value and sometimes it can come on the defensive end without blocks and steals.

What has happened is people rely on stats so much to back their agenda they stop using basketball common sense. The supporting cast filling in are actually superior to the players that are out defensively, not to mention they still have the luxury of having a few spot up shooters they can sub in and out until one gets hot.

I could care less about what these abstract numbers they pull out of the air are supposed to tell me about Cleveland's role players, I'm watching these guys and they are ballin and deserve a lot of credit.

5ass
06-08-2015, 10:19 AM
Oh please go back from the 60's till now and you'll find plenty of teams in the finals with a worst roster. You Lebron fan are the cause of all the hate the man gets. You guys over rate the **** out of him and continually underrate his team. You guys are ridiculous

LMAO give it up man.

5ass
06-08-2015, 10:23 AM
Exactly... defense matters. Obviously both those teams could use another offensive weapon or two, but lets not act like they are a much of scrubs. Lebron right now has a ton of good defenders and/or shooters surrounding him on the court. He is a great player. He can make that work.

You can see how underrated players like Delladova and Tristan Thompson are on a stage like this. They play D, they rebound, and they hustle. It can go along way.

LeBron is handling so much of the load offensively (scoring and play making), while also rebounding the ball well and playing good defense. He's allowing his teammates to have the energy to hustle, play D, and rebound all game. Its not like there are any elite defenders on his team. Not even close.

I would argue Step has better defenders around him.

LongIslandIcedZ
06-08-2015, 10:28 AM
If you take Lebron off of this current Cav team (without Love and Irving), are they even a playoff team? I dont think its even close.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 10:45 AM
If you take Lebron off of this current Cav team (without Love and Irving), are they even a playoff team? I dont think its even close.

No because they have no offense outside of Lebron. But that doesn't change the fact that he has good supporting players around him who either can D up, shoot from long range, and/or contribute in some other specific way. That doesn't mean Lebron isn't a great player, but he didn't win last night by himself.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 10:48 AM
LeBron is handling so much of the load offensively (scoring and play making), while also rebounding the ball well and playing good defense. He's allowing his teammates to have the energy to hustle, play D, and rebound all game. Its not like there are any elite defenders on his team. Not even close.

I would argue Step has better defenders around him.

And I don't blame Lebron one bit for his poor shooting percentages for that reason. But Delladova is a really impressive defender. And Tristan Thompson is a stud rebounder. And James Jones can flat out shoot. I don't know if it gets much better than that in terms of specialized role players. Point is, you can take someone like Lebron who can adapt to any style of play and surround him with good role players and still be a threat to beat any team.

But the thing about Lebron is, he doesn't really make the stars he plays with better. Are the Cavs really that much better with Love and Kyrie? We have seen them play all year and they don't look much worse right now. And remember last year with the Heat with Bosh and Wade. Wade would completely disappear at times and Bosh was essentially a stretch 4 who would just catch and shoot beyond the arc. Lebron takes over whatever team he is on and he does just fine with role players who do their jobs and do them well. So stop making excuses for him. We have seen the whole Lebron story come full circle.

We all know Lebron didn't hold the Warriors to under 90 points in regulation on their own home floor by himself. His team played great defense and its because they have a lot of good individual defenders out there on the floor who can match up well. How can you say that Dellavadova's impact isn't being felt out there. One possession he is D'ing up Curry, not falling for his fakes.... the next possession he gets switched on Draymond Green and battles him in the low post like a beast. That is a valuable player right there who played a huge role in his team's victory. Same goes for Tristan Thompson, Mozgov, James Jones, Shump, JR, etc. They didn't all play well last night, but they have at different points during the playoffs and there are things that guy like Thompson and Dellavadova do well that guys like Love and Kyrie don't.

koreancabbage
06-08-2015, 10:51 AM
No because they have no offense outside of Lebron. But that doesn't change the fact that he has good supporting players around him who either can D up, shoot from long range, and/or contribute in some other specific way. That doesn't mean Lebron isn't a great player, but he didn't win last night by himself.

of course not, he only directly affected 69% of made field goals or something like that (assist and scoring)

These are NBA players. ofc they are gonna defend and make the shots, just like any other NBA player on any team.

noone wins it all by themselves. like you stated. =D

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 11:04 AM
LeBron is handling so much of the load offensively (scoring and play making), while also rebounding the ball well and playing good defense. He's allowing his teammates to have the energy to hustle, play D, and rebound all game. Its not like there are any elite defenders on his team. Not even close.

I would argue Step has better defenders around him.

And yes Steph has great defenders around him. That is the main reason the Warriors are so damn good. Its not just the splash bros. That team is stacked with talent and much of that talent includes defense. No doubt about it that the Warriors have the better supporting cast. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that Lebron's supporting cast is underrated because while none of them can create their own shots, that doesn't make them useless players. Again, guys like Thompson and Dellavadova can do things on the court that Love and Kyrie can't do nearly as well. So far during these playoffs, it has been proven that the Cavs don't suffer much of a drop off without those two stars for this very reason. In a way, it almost fits Lebron better. You just wonder if offensively they can keep pace with Golden State for 5 more games.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 11:06 AM
But yeah, I don't blame Lebron one bit for the low shooting percentages and I don't think he is in decline either. He has to force things on this team especially without his #2 and #3 options on the floor. It is like when Larry Brown has said that he wanted Iverson to shoot as much as possible because it gave them the best chance to win. I'm sure Blatt and the rest of that Cavs team is pretty much just telling Lebron to carry the load offensively and do his thing out there.

koreancabbage
06-08-2015, 11:08 AM
But yeah, I don't blame Lebron one bit for the low shooting percentages and I don't think he is in decline either. He has to force things on this team especially without his #2 and #3 options on the floor. t

i think this is the same sentiment i share.

He HAS to take the 40 shots. this team is severly shorthanded of star power.

5ass
06-08-2015, 11:25 AM
And I don't blame Lebron one bit for his poor shooting percentages for that reason. But Delladova is a really impressive defender. And Tristan Thompson is a stud rebounder. And James Jones can flat out shoot. I don't know if it gets much better than that in terms of specialized role players. Point is, you can take someone like Lebron who can adapt to any style of play and surround him with good role players and still be a threat to beat any team.

But the thing about Lebron is, he doesn't really make the stars he plays with better. Are the Cavs really that much better with Love and Kyrie? We have seen them play all year and they don't look much worse right now. And remember last year with the Heat with Bosh and Wade. Wade would completely disappear at times and Bosh was essentially a stretch 4 who would just catch and shoot beyond the arc. Lebron takes over whatever team he is on and he does just fine with role players who do their jobs and do them well. So stop making excuses for him. We have seen the whole Lebron story come full circle.

We all know Lebron didn't hold the Warriors to under 90 points in regulation on their own home floor by himself. His team played great defense and its because they have a lot of good individual defenders out there on the floor who can match up well. How can you say that Dellavadova's impact isn't being felt out there. One possession he is D'ing up Curry, not falling for his fakes.... the next possession he gets switched on Draymond Green and battles him in the low post like a beast. That is a valuable player right there who played a huge role in his team's victory. Same goes for Tristan Thompson, Mozgov, James Jones, Shump, JR, etc. They didn't all play well last night, but they have at different points during the playoffs and there are things that guy like Thompson and Dellavadova do well that guys like Love and Kyrie don't.

Where did I say LeBron alone held them to 90 points? Or that his teammates are useless?
They played great defense. I dont think they played elite defense. The warriors (curry mainly) just chucked the ball from 3 when they should've been getting in the paint. Had they took it to the paint, Cleveland's defense would've been exposed.

Goose17
06-08-2015, 11:52 AM
Offensively his team mates are garbage. J.R is their second option on offense now and I've had bacon less streaky. If someone told me there would be a finals team with J.R as the second option in terms of scoring I would assume they were talking about D-League finals.

Which makes what LeBron is doing even more impressive. Sure the team played an insane caliber of defense last night and the fact that they've got a bunch of decent defenders really helps. But LeBron is more than carrying them offensively now.

If the Cavs win this LeBron will need to have played like he did last night. If he does that three more times then I don't see how anyone can have him as anything other than the best player of his generation. And for those that bother with all time lists (not my thing personally) they would NEED to have him in at least their top 5 if not top 3.

D-Leethal
06-08-2015, 11:52 AM
Where did I say LeBron alone held them to 90 points? Or that his teammates are useless?
They played great defense. I dont think they played elite defense. The warriors (curry mainly) just chucked the ball from 3 when they should've been getting in the paint. Had they took it to the paint, Cleveland's defense would've been exposed.

TT has been icing and trapping the pick and rolls so well GSW can't get into the paint to save their lives.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-08-2015, 12:11 PM
Lebron was getting fouled a ton in the 4th which wasn't getting called. On those drives from the top of the key Iguodola would stick his forearm into Lebron's chest to stop his momentum which is a hand check foul not being called.

Lebron hit big shots in the Chicago and Atlanta series.

The notion that Lebron isn't clutch is a false one.

Lebron has played a great all around game in the first 2 games and he deserves praise for that. The only qualifier is that late in the 4th qtr and OT of both games his shooting did not rise. I saw MJ and Bird in their primes. There is a huge difference between Bird/MJ shooting with the game on the line and Lebron shooting with the game on the line. That does not mean Lebron is not a great player. He just is not MJ or Bird when the pressure comes.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 12:20 PM
Where did I say LeBron alone held them to 90 points? Or that his teammates are useless?
They played great defense. I dont think they played elite defense. The warriors (curry mainly) just chucked the ball from 3 when they should've been getting in the paint. Had they took it to the paint, Cleveland's defense would've been exposed.

Curry and the Warriors always chuck the ball from 3. This series is no different. Difference in this last game was that Dellavadova wasn't falling for his fakes and played great defense. That and Curry missed some shots he usually makes. But its all related IMO. I guess I just love what Dellavadova is doing because I play that style myself. I'm a perimeter defender who never loses focus or desire to defend in any single posession whether it be against the opposing PG or C. I think that level of focus, effort, and skill on the defensive end can go a long way, but it rarely gets recognized for its rightful impact by people covering the sport. There is a skill in it that not everyone has. Same goes for Thompson as a big. These are role players, yes... but when put on the right team in the right situation, they can make as much of an impact as a star.

bucketss
06-08-2015, 12:28 PM
i do think lebron has declined athletically, his first step isn't as explosive thats why he misses at the rim more often.

Tony_Starks
06-08-2015, 01:04 PM
Its ironic that all these Lebron fans have yet to figure out how crucial D and 3 guys are to his success. Almost reminds me of the Dream in his prime, surround him with shooters and defenders and he will pick you apart.....doesn't matter what their name is.

The only difference is I've never seen Dream fans insecure enough to have to bring up "Kenny Smith, Matt Bullard, or Mario Ellie wouldn't even start on most teams! This is a lottery team without Dream!" .....every 5 minutes to validate Olajuwons greatness.

koreancabbage
06-08-2015, 01:17 PM
i do think lebron has declined athletically, his first step isn't as explosive thats why he misses at the rim more often.

Iggy/Green/Barnes/Thompson aren't **** defenders LOL

They're probably the main reasons why GS has been a top defensive team this year.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-08-2015, 01:27 PM
i think this is the same sentiment i share.

He HAS to take the 40 shots. this team is severly shorthanded of star power.

They just lack offense. They don't have anyone else who can create offense except for JR Smith, but we all know what type of offense he creates. But that doesn't mean their supporting cast is bad. Guys like Dellavadova, Thompson, Shump, Mozgov, and Jones are all good role players. And sometimes a role player can be more valuable than a star if the fit is right. That is why this series is far from over even with the Kyrie and Love injuries. And this is also why the trades Cleveland mad midseason were huge for getting that team on the right track. I like all those role player I just mentioned. Cleveland still lacks depth and scoring options not named Lebron. It will probably be there undoing. They could definitely use Kyrie and Love for offensive support. But I still think the supporting cast this year for Lebron doesn't get quite enough credit because they do other things than create offense.

Understandeably though, Lebron is going to force things offensively because he has no choice. Since he is also going up against good defenders like Iggy, Barnes, and Draymond... it is going to lead to lower percentages for Lebron. I'm not a Lebron hater or apologist. I just can recognize that his supporting cast is good at other things than just scoring, but Lebron has to carry the load and force the issue on offense. He is still the best player in the world and nobody else with that supporting cast could have his team compete like this against a team as good as Golden State.

ManRam
06-08-2015, 02:03 PM
All I have to say about this is the following:

Who else on that offense can create for themselves or others with the ball in their hands? Last night Delly did a few times, but besides that it was all LeBron. I truly can't remember an instance where someone else besides those few floaters from Delly created offense. JR, Jones, and Shump can hit threes from time to time, but the former two really can't do anything off the dribble. Jones had that one three he created for himself and JVG rightfully went nuts. It probably was the only 3 he made all year that wasn't a catch-and-shoot. JR was a mess again, and we're quickly being reminded why he was rightfully cash-dumped. Tristan and Mozgov can't space the floor which really hurts LeBron. Both have great chemistry with him and Mozgov thrived because of that, but most all of his points came off of LeBron creations.

The only guy who can create is LeBron. That's remarkable.

papipapsmanny
06-08-2015, 02:51 PM
The narrative for Lebron's career is that all the players around him are bad.

Bosh and Wade play with Lebron... somehow both are magically not that good in the eyes of some, and Lebron is carrying them.

Lebron goes back to Clevland, Irving isn't that good anymore, and Love isn't a top 5 PF in the eyes of some and Lebron is carrying them.

That has been the narrative and it is getting so tiring to hear.

But then for Jordan, who was the greatest player ever. Those same people put the narrative that Jordan didn't carry those teams because he was surrounded by all stars and studs, when in reality I don't think Jordan ever played with someone that was the equivalent to Wade's talent.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 02:53 PM
I don't see a single player that can create offense outside LeBron. When you are depending on getting championship contributions from JR Smith, you know your offense is in shambles.

The defense is probably better, well not probably, for sure is, minus Love/Irving. But it still doesn't come close to catching the +/- they would offer being healthy and playing.

Right now, this is the worst supporting cast a finals team has ever had. Obviously the majority of that is due to injuries. But it's terrible (again, for a CONTENDING ROSTER, not compared to every NBA team), and I can't believe Cleveland has been the better team so far. I am honestly shocked.

Hotone1401
06-08-2015, 02:56 PM
LeBron is handling so much of the load offensively (scoring and play making), while also rebounding the ball well and playing good defense. He's allowing his teammates to have the energy to hustle, play D, and rebound all game. Its not like there are any elite defenders on his team. Not even close.

I would argue Step has better defenders around him.

Aside from your point about Lebron initiating the offense the rest of your argument is stupid. Like every superstar and great player, Lebron commands double teams and he deserves credit for finding the open man and making the right decision. That doesn't mean he gets credit for the pass leading to the assist as well.

I really don't understand the need for people like you to credit Lebron for everything his teammates do. Can't his teammates get the credit they deserve for simply putting in the effort that they do? Or the coach designing a good defensive scheme? What does it even mean to say he's allowing his team to have the energy to hustle, play D, and rebound?" That's completely stupid because you can literally say that for any ball dominant offensive player. Would you give Carmelo Anthony credit if his teammates were playing great defense because he was hogging the ball on offense? By that same token, what happens when his teammates play bad defense when he is dominating on offense? Your assertion cannot be proven to be related and makes no sense. I really don't understand why you can't just give these players credit themselves.

And there are no elite defenders on this team in comparison to whom and by what standards? The whole team is playing elite defense it seems and aren't reputations made in the postseason when stakes are highest? Was Tristan Thompson considered an elite rebounder before this postseason? No.

Simply put, stop riding Lebron's d!ck and give his teammates some facking credit already.

lamzoka
06-08-2015, 03:05 PM
Put the man on the roster, you're heading to the finals. Take him out the roster you're heading to the lottery.

I truly believe if you add LeBron to any NBA roster he would take them to the finals. Yes including the Knicks, Lakers, Wolves and Sixers. The man is gifted. He's the only player capable of winning a championship surrended by scrubs. He turned role players to stars.

ManRam
06-08-2015, 03:06 PM
The narrative for Lebron's career is that all the players around him are bad.

Bosh and Wade play with Lebron... somehow both are magically not that good in the eyes of some, and Lebron is carrying them.

Lebron goes back to Clevland, Irving isn't that good anymore, and Love isn't a top 5 PF in the eyes of some and Lebron is carrying them.

That has been the narrative and it is getting so tiring to hear.

But then for Jordan, who was the greatest player ever. Those same people put the narrative that Jordan didn't carry those teams because he was surrounded by all stars and studs, when in reality I don't think Jordan ever played with someone that was the equivalent to Wade's talent.

The thing is, here on PSD people were calling the Heat supporting cast "the greatest ever". So of course there are going to be people countering that. Once the Heat filled up that roster it was very good. Obviously good enough to win multiple championships. But it wasn't quite prime Wade (at least all the time) and Bosh did transition into almost a completely different player. Things change. As always you have hyperbole on both sides. I don't think people were saying "Irving isn't that good anymore". Hell, he got way more **** last year than this year. I get the opposite feeling: people are finally seeing how good he is/can be.Just go back and look at what people were saying last year. I agree about Love...perception on him has changed. But you can't deny that he hasn't played as well this year as recent. Right? You can get tired of hearing things, but sometimes things you don't like hearing aren't wrong.

This year it's on a different caliber. You can't deny it's the worst supporting cast for a star we've seen probably in our lifetimes, can you? I do think we're chiding these players a bit too much, but they all are being asked to fill roles that they probably aren't good enough to be filling. Maybe it gets tiring to hear, but it is what it is. A lot of them have stepped up and deserve all the credit in the world for that. But they are what they are and what they are 6th men caliber players. Their careers all show that. And watching them get to the Finals has been a joy because of that.

flea
06-08-2015, 03:07 PM
I don't see a single player that can create offense outside LeBron. When you are depending on getting championship contributions from JR Smith, you know your offense is in shambles.

The defense is probably better, well not probably, for sure is, minus Love/Irving. But it still doesn't come close to catching the +/- they would offer being healthy and playing.

Right now, this is the worst supporting cast a finals team has ever had. Obviously the majority of that is due to injuries. But it's terrible (again, for a CONTENDING ROSTER, not compared to every NBA team), and I can't believe Cleveland has been the better team so far. I am honestly shocked.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. His teammates aren't that bad at all, and they basically won the game in game 2. They are a defense-first team now that wants to play low-scoring, low-possession games and that is different from the regular season but that doesn't make them bad. There have been plenty of Finals teams with players as bad or worse 2-8 in the rotation as this one.

Difference is, Lebron needs to be his team's primary scorer now. He's never won a title as his team's clear-cut best scorer. Wade was at least as good in '12 and '13, and the Heat often went to him in crucial possessions to keep the game in hand. It's a tall task to be sure, but it's not unprecedented. Last night he was in a starting lineup where he was the 5th best defender - that's the type of team he has now. No longer is he the 4th or 5th best shooter in his lineups.

papipapsmanny
06-08-2015, 03:09 PM
Plus you keep saying getting to the finals.

Look at at Jordan's 88 and 89 teams. In 88 his cast was pretty non-existent and he got them past a pretty good Cavs team. A team that would probably get really or even win the east in todays eastern conference. Then he lost to Detroit in the 2nd round, who would destroy every team in the east today.

89 still a pretty non-existent but improving supporting cast. Again gets past a pretty good Clevland team, and then a good Knicks team, then again in the 3rd round this time a great pistons teams takes him down.

85 he was a rookie and lost in 4 games to the Bucks, a Bucks team I don't know much about so I don't know how they would compare to today's teams in the East.

86 and 87 he got swept in the 1st round by one of the greatest teams ever (Bird's Celtics), again with not a great team around him.

They got swept in 86 despite Jordan going off for 49 and 63 points in games 1 and 2 respectively on over 50% shooting in both those games.

Just trying to put some perspective here on the players, and the competition.

Hotone1401
06-08-2015, 03:14 PM
I don't see a single player that can create offense outside LeBron. When you are depending on getting championship contributions from JR Smith, you know your offense is in shambles.

The defense is probably better, well not probably, for sure is, minus Love/Irving. But it still doesn't come close to catching the +/- they would offer being healthy and playing.

Right now, this is the worst supporting cast a finals team has ever had. Obviously the majority of that is due to injuries. But it's terrible (again, for a CONTENDING ROSTER, not compared to every NBA team), and I can't believe Cleveland has been the better team so far. I am honestly shocked.

They certainly aren't playing like the worst roster ever in finals history.

Why is your offense in shambles for depending on other players on your team like JR? He's a shot maker is he not? So is James Jones. Mozgov has been great as well and even Delly hit some big time floaters to kill the momentum of the Dubs.

I'm not shocked at all by this Cavs team. In fact, I picked them to win the series in 6 games to start because I've actually watched them play throughout the postseason and I didn't fall into the hype of the perimeter shooting Warriors like most fans.

ManRam
06-08-2015, 03:21 PM
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. His teammates aren't that bad at all, and they basically won the game in game 2. They are a defense-first team now that wants to play low-scoring, low-possession games and that is different from the regular season but that doesn't make them bad. There have been plenty of Finals teams with players as bad or worse 2-8 in the rotation as this one.

Difference is, Lebron needs to be his team's primary scorer now. He's never won a title as his team's clear-cut best scorer. Wade was at least as good in '12 and '13, and the Heat often went to him in crucial possessions to keep the game in hand. It's a tall task to be sure, but it's not unprecedented. Last night he was in a starting lineup where he was the 5th best defender - that's the type of team he has now. No longer is he the 4th or 5th best shooter in his lineups.

Who was a better scorer than him in 2012 and 2013?

2012:

Player A: 30.3 points on 21.8 FGA (57.6 TS%)
Player B: 22.8 points on 18.3 FGA (52.6 TS%)

2013:

Player A: 25.9 points on 18.8 FGA (58.5 TS%)
Player B: 15.9 points on 14.3 FGA (49.8 TS%)

Sorry to say, but Player A is NOT Dwyane Wade.

I get that you're crusading against the guy, but at least don't be an idiot about it. You're a bright guy. Try to be somewhat objective here.

And again, this is one way to look at it but it says a lot: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/


Last thing. Tell me what you disagree with here.

1. JR Smith was cash-dumped by one of the worst teams in the NBA this year. Go back to when he got traded and find everyone making fun of him. Primarily a 6th man for his career. Now essentially a second option.

2. Shump is a decent defender with starting expeirence, but a career 7.7 point scorer and a career 10.7 PER

3. Timofy Mozgov has averaged under 20 minutes a game in his career. He's a career 7 and 5 player. He's offensively challenged...every point he got besides one FG last night was LeBron-created.

4. Matthew Delevadova had to bust his *** in Summer League to make the team as an undrafted player.

5. Tristan Thompson had a coming out party this year but is still so offensively raw.


These are good role players. But to pretend like they're more than that is disingenuous. That's what they've been their whole careers. That's what they were brought in to be for the Cavs. Yes, you're right...they aren't "bad". But none are more than 4th or 5th options. They've stepped up at times (and flopped at others). That's why this has all been so fun. But they all are who they all have always been...and that's not 2nd options or 3rd options. Are you taking any of those first 4 over Klay, Dray, Bogut, Barnes, Iggy? Nah. The first is an All-Star. The second is a DPOY runner up. The third is an All-Defensive NBA player. The 4th and 5th are better.

It is what it is. It's awesome they've stepped up...but to step up implies you were somewhere lower in the first place. And there's nothing wrong with that.

flea
06-08-2015, 03:38 PM
Look at the shot charts if you don't want to watch how the games unravel. Wade is a top notch player in the post, where ISO offense comes easiest. Lebron never really has done much there as the basis for his offense - he relied on getting to the rim before this year. He was possibly the greatest transition offensive player and created havoc on quick pick and pops, but set defenses can shut down the paint even against Lebron James (and Jordan and Wade and every other great slasher). Wade is the one the Heat went to on those possessions.

Ask the longtime Heat fans around here - their offense usually lost nothing when Lebron sat and oftentimes was better. That's because Wade wasn't off the ball and he had the advantage of 4 shooters around him. He doesn't need as much space as Lebron to produce, but more space never hurts.

I'm not saying Lebron wasn't the best offensive player on the Heat at all. I mean scorer. You've got to dig deeper than TS% - which can underrate very valuable assets like midrange shooting and post play. As for that stupid 538 article, I already gave my thoughts in another post. It's a WS/PER based argument they're making for a player with like a 40% USG rate - something that would make even Westbrook blush. It's a terrible way to separate teammate contributions.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 03:47 PM
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. His teammates aren't that bad at all, and they basically won the game in game 2. They are a defense-first team now that wants to play low-scoring, low-possession games and that is different from the regular season but that doesn't make them bad. There have been plenty of Finals teams with players as bad or worse 2-8 in the rotation as this one.

Difference is, Lebron needs to be his team's primary scorer now. He's never won a title as his team's clear-cut best scorer. Wade was at least as good in '12 and '13, and the Heat often went to him in crucial possessions to keep the game in hand. It's a tall task to be sure, but it's not unprecedented. Last night he was in a starting lineup where he was the 5th best defender - that's the type of team he has now. No longer is he the 4th or 5th best shooter in his lineups.

Stop. I dont wanna sound like a dick but saying LeBron has never won a chamoionship as the best scorer might be the dumbest thing i've ever heard. If I were you I would delete that post or you've basically lost all credibility. Not even the biggest LeBron haters would try to argue it because its so blatantly false.

Just for fun though can you elaborate on how Wade was a better scorer than Bron in 2012 and 2013?

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 03:52 PM
Put the man on the roster, you're heading to the finals. Take him out the roster you're heading to the lottery.

I truly believe if you add LeBron to any NBA roster he would take them to the finals. Yes including the Knicks, Lakers, Wolves and Sixers. The man is gifted. He's the only player capable of winning a championship surrended by scrubs. He turned role players to stars.

I don't think he takes a cellar dweller out west to the finals, but for sure he could get the Wolves into the playoffs. Doubt they would make it far though.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 03:55 PM
They certainly aren't playing like the worst roster ever in finals history.

Why is your offense in shambles for depending on other players on your team like JR? He's a shot maker is he not? So is James Jones. Mozgov has been great as well and even Delly hit some big time floaters to kill the momentum of the Dubs.

I'm not shocked at all by this Cavs team. In fact, I picked them to win the series in 6 games to start because I've actually watched them play throughout the postseason and I didn't fall into the hype of the perimeter shooting Warriors like most fans.

sure they are. Fortunately, they are also controlling the pace, and GS is flat out missing some shots. They won a finals game shooting 32%. How is that possible? LeBron's usage and his flat out contribution level to so many of the Cavs baskets is something I have never seen in the finals. Ever.

When you are DEPENDING on JR Smith, and James Jones, instead of taking the usual once ever series outbreak from a player like that usually, that says something. Look at the lineups. 2 Knicks cast offs. A Nugget cast off. A dude nobody knew about prior to these playoffs.

It just adds up to, LeBron is playing with the worst overall set of help I have ever seen a player play with this deep into the playoffs.

papipapsmanny
06-08-2015, 03:56 PM
Lebron was definitely the best player on those Heat teams, but my whole point was he was in w weak east and had a top 2 SG playing with him and a top 5 PF playing with him in Miami, and then a great shooter off the bench in Allen for the last 2 years there.

His supporting cast in Miami was nothing short of great

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 03:56 PM
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. His teammates aren't that bad at all, and they basically won the game in game 2. They are a defense-first team now that wants to play low-scoring, low-possession games and that is different from the regular season but that doesn't make them bad. There have been plenty of Finals teams with players as bad or worse 2-8 in the rotation as this one.

Difference is, Lebron needs to be his team's primary scorer now. He's never won a title as his team's clear-cut best scorer. Wade was at least as good in '12 and '13, and the Heat often went to him in crucial possessions to keep the game in hand. It's a tall task to be sure, but it's not unprecedented. Last night he was in a starting lineup where he was the 5th best defender - that's the type of team he has now. No longer is he the 4th or 5th best shooter in his lineups.

LeBron wasn't his teams primary scorer in his title runs?

No, not just scorer, he needs to do everything for that offense.

papipapsmanny
06-08-2015, 04:00 PM
sure they are. Fortunately, they are also controlling the pace, and GS is flat out missing some shots. They won a finals game shooting 32%. How is that possible? LeBron's usage and his flat out contribution level to so many of the Cavs baskets is something I have never seen in the finals. Ever.

When you are DEPENDING on JR Smith, and James Jones, instead of taking the usual once ever series outbreak from a player like that usually, that says something. Look at the lineups. 2 Knicks cast offs. A Nugget cast off. A dude nobody knew about prior to these playoffs.

It just adds up to, LeBron is playing with the worst overall set of help I have ever seen a player play with this deep into the playoffs.

He got there by beating a depleted Hawks team because of injuries who beat a Wizards team without there best player/ or injured while he was playing (Wall)

The east is so weak, and everyone in the playoffs got injured on every team.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 04:00 PM
Lebron was definitely the best player on those Heat teams, but my whole point was he was in w weak east and had a top 2 SG playing with him and a top 5 PF playing with him in Miami, and then a great shooter off the bench in Allen for the last 2 years there.

His supporting cast in Miami was nothing short of great

how did Wade look in the playoffs in the 2 title runs? He was good when he wasn't hurt in 2012, and he and Bosh kicked in a total of 25 a night against Indiana, on awful percentages. Even in the finals neither played near star level on offense. In 2014, Wade was essentially Lt Dan for the playoffs.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 04:02 PM
sure they are. Fortunately, they are also controlling the pace, and GS is flat out missing some shots. They won a finals game shooting 32%. How is that possible? LeBron's usage and his flat out contribution level to so many of the Cavs baskets is something I have never seen in the finals. Ever.

When you are DEPENDING on JR Smith, and James Jones, instead of taking the usual once ever series outbreak from a player like that usually, that says something. Look at the lineups. 2 Knicks cast offs. A Nugget cast off. A dude nobody knew about prior to these playoffs.

It just adds up to, LeBron is playing with the worst overall set of help I have ever seen a player play with this deep into the playoffs.

James Jones was seen as a walking corpse before these playoffs, people laughed at the Cavs for the JR trade, and nobody had even heard of Delly. Now the narrative is changing because what LeBron does always needs to be diminished by some people.

With that said, this relatively untalented group is playing very very hard, as well as stepping it up on defense. The offense is all LeBron right now and the fact that he could do this for 50 minutes is insane! The Cavs have 3 things going for them: LeBron, heart/toughness, and chemistry.

5ass
06-08-2015, 04:02 PM
They certainly aren't playing like the worst roster ever in finals history.

Why is your offense in shambles for depending on other players on your team like JR? He's a shot maker is he not? So is James Jones. Mozgov has been great as well and even Delly hit some big time floaters to kill the momentum of the Dubs.

I'm not shocked at all by this Cavs team. In fact, I picked them to win the series in 6 games to start because I've actually watched them play throughout the postseason and I didn't fall into the hype of the perimeter shooting Warriors like most fans.

James Jones? A shot maker? He takes open shots doesn't create them. JR smith is dependable for a finals series? Tristan Thompson wasn't considered an elite rebounder? Now delladova is an elite defender because Curry had one bad game? GTFO not going to even bother replying to your post.

IKnowHoops
06-08-2015, 04:03 PM
i still have cavs winning. ALOT of people will go in hiding after this series.

Dido

5ass
06-08-2015, 04:04 PM
James Jones was seen as a walking corpse before these playoffs, people laughed at the Cavs for the JR trade, and nobody had even heard of Delly. Now the narrative is changing because what LeBron does always needs to be diminished by some people.

With that said, this relatively untalented group is playing very very hard, as well as stepping it up on defense. The offense is all LeBron right now and the fact that he could do this for 50 minutes is insane! The Cavs have 3 things going for them: LeBron, heart/toughness, and chemistry.

Exactly.

papipapsmanny
06-08-2015, 04:07 PM
how did Wade look in the playoffs in the 2 title runs? He was good when he wasn't hurt in 2012, and he and Bosh kicked in a total of 25 a night against Indiana, on awful percentages. Even in the finals neither played near star level on offense. In 2014, Wade was essentially Lt Dan for the playoffs.

Dude the last 3 years Dwayne Wade (a declined one) has in total averaged over 20 points a game on over 50% shooting I don't want to hear it.

Bosh averaged 21 points per game this season before getting injured. These players aren't just magically getting better when Lebron isn't with them and terrible when he is. They are what they have always been, extremely good players top 5 at their positions.

5ass
06-08-2015, 04:09 PM
Dude the last 3 years Dwayne Wade (a declined one) has in total averaged over 20 points a game on over 50% shooting I don't want to hear it.

Bosh averaged 21 points per game this season before getting injured. These players aren't just magically getting better when Lebron isn't with them and terrible when he is. They are what they have always been, extremely good players top 5 at their positions.

How many games did they win?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-08-2015, 04:09 PM
If the Cavs win this, it's going to be because the Warriors are going to lose it.

Cavs supporting cast is downright terrible offensively.

Jamiecballer
06-08-2015, 04:22 PM
the level of close-mindedness in this place is amazing. both sides are guilty. but it never fails to amaze me how much numbers seem to really make Kobe guys uncomfortable.

Jamiecballer
06-08-2015, 04:25 PM
I dont give a hell bout whatever crap they trying to sell, it's NO WAY possible that
K Irving
JR Smith
I Shump
T Thompson
T Mosgov
M Deli

Is a worst supporting cast than
Eric Snow
George Lynch
Aaron Mckie
Theo Ratliff
Deke Mutombo
Kevin Ollie

sure it is. the difference in court intelligence between group A and group B is night and day.

IKnowHoops
06-08-2015, 04:26 PM
Its ironic that all these Lebron fans have yet to figure out how crucial D and 3 guys are to his success. Almost reminds me of the Dream in his prime, surround him with shooters and defenders and he will pick you apart.....doesn't matter what their name is.

The only difference is I've never seen Dream fans insecure enough to have to bring up "Kenny Smith, Matt Bullard, or Mario Ellie wouldn't even start on most teams! This is a lottery team without Dream!" .....every 5 minutes to validate Olajuwons greatness.

people dont hate on dream, thats why.

Jamiecballer
06-08-2015, 04:27 PM
No it isn't. You're asserting this based off a dumb article that is clearly biased. Lebron has had good teams. Stop making excuses for the guy.

hmmmm... just good? do we expect championships now from players with merely good teammates or is that territory reserved only for Lebron. just trying to understand.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 04:38 PM
Dude the last 3 years Dwayne Wade (a declined one) has in total averaged over 20 points a game on over 50% shooting I don't want to hear it.

Bosh averaged 21 points per game this season before getting injured. These players aren't just magically getting better when Lebron isn't with them and terrible when he is. They are what they have always been, extremely good players top 5 at their positions.

how bout playoffs? Series by series....

Better? How so? Bosh scores more, but still doesn't hold the same value he holds playing next to LeBron.

You are thinking of healthy versions of Wade/Bosh. Think harder, about the versions that were in the playoffs series by series the prior 3 years.

Hawkeye15
06-08-2015, 04:40 PM
sure it is. the difference in court intelligence between group A and group B is night and day.

or the fact that group B was actually a team that was built to be that way and played all season/playoffs together? Not a team that half of them were traded midseason, and the only reason most of them are seeing a ton of minutes in finals games is because of injuries....

HUGE difference. LeBron with Iverson's crew could have won a ring, I have zero doubt in my mind. Not the year that team bounced through and finally made it, only to run into one of the best teams in playoff history, but other years.

L8kers4life
06-08-2015, 04:45 PM
This whole thread is stupid, if you can win a game against the best team in the NBA on there homecourt in the finals, and your best player ( LeBron) shoots 32% on 35 shots, your supporting cast is pretty good. They may not be the best offensively, but on D, this team is better now than when Kyrie and Love are on the floor.

I specifically remember many of you on here bashing Kobe for going 8-24 in a closeout game of the finals, basically saying his team didnt need him to win, eventhough he finished with 24 points 15 rebounds and like 7 assists, but he was not needed for the Lakers to win the championship.

News flash, Timofy Mozgov had 17 and 10 in 29 minutes in the biggest game of the year and he did not sniff the court from the 4th quarter on, why, because LeBron needed space to operate. LeBron shot 32% from the field, yet know one in here is mentioning field goal percentage like they would for Kobe. Why is that? Such a double standard on here. But this just validates Kobes argument for being great. Every LeBron fan talks efficiency when talking Kobe, now LeBron is playing the best he ever has, and guess what, his efficiency sucks, some things matter more then just your fiield goal percentage, that is all I'm saying. Cant have it both ways LeBron fans, and just like Kobe, if he has a bad shoting game, others must step up, guess what, thats what happened last night.

L8kers4life
06-08-2015, 04:51 PM
how bout playoffs? Series by series....

Better? How so? Bosh scores more, but still doesn't hold the same value he holds playing next to LeBron.

You are thinking of healthy versions of Wade/Bosh. Think harder, about the versions that were in the playoffs series by series the prior 3 years.


This statement makes no sense, that is like saying Kobe doesnt hold as much value playing without Shaq or Magic doesnt hold as much value playing without Kareem, guess what, if you play with great players most of the time your value will be better than playing without a great player, that is not rocket science, great players command attention, so this statement is saying nothing. Also Wade won a ring without LeBron and was the best player on their first team in Miami, so your not saying much.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 05:08 PM
This whole thread is stupid, if you can win a game against the best team in the NBA on there homecourt in the finals, and your best player ( LeBron) shoots 32% on 35 shots, your supporting cast is pretty good. They may not be the best offensively, but on D, this team is better now than when Kyrie and Love are on the floor.

I specifically remember many of you on here bashing Kobe for going 8-24 in a closeout game of the finals, basically saying his team didnt need him to win, eventhough he finished with 24 points 15 rebounds and like 7 assists, but he was not needed for the Lakers to win the championship.

News flash, Timofy Mozgov had 17 and 10 in 29 minutes in the biggest game of the year and he did not sniff the court from the 4th quarter on, why, because LeBron needed space to operate. LeBron shot 32% from the field, yet know one in here is mentioning field goal percentage like they would for Kobe. Why is that? Such a double standard on here. But this just validates Kobes argument for being great. Every LeBron fan talks efficiency when talking Kobe, now LeBron is playing the best he ever has, and guess what, his efficiency sucks, some things matter more then just your fiield goal percentage, that is all I'm saying. Cant have it both ways LeBron fans, and just like Kobe, if he has a bad shoting game, others must step up, guess what, thats what happened last night.

Kobe is amazing no doubt but when looking at efficiency context is very important. LeBron was ridiculously efficient in Miami when he had a good team. People are really underrating how much losing the second and third best players to injuries affects a team. LeBron's teammates are playing great defensively and are always giving 100% effort so you got to give them props for that but the offense is all LeBron right now. With the load hes carrying right now, it would be very very hard to be efficient.

Kobe had Pau and a very good supporting cast so its really hard to compare. I dont think anyone gets on Kobe's case for being efficient when he was playing with Kwame and Smush. Also, for the record in that game 7 Kobe was 6/24 and had 2 assists not 7. LeBron has been having a huge impact on every facet of the game and thats why hes getting praise, its not just the volume scoring. I mean he had 11 assists and 16 boards last night which would be absolutely insane for anyone not named LeBron.

L8kers4life
06-08-2015, 05:28 PM
Kobe is amazing no doubt but when looking at efficiency context is very important. LeBron was ridiculously efficient in Miami when he had a good team. People are really underrating how much losing the second and third best players to injuries affects a team. LeBron's teammates are playing great defensively and are always giving 100% effort so you got to give them props for that but the offense is all LeBron right now. With the load hes carrying right now, it would be very very hard to be efficient.

Kobe had Pau and a very good supporting cast so its really hard to compare. I dont think anyone gets on Kobe's case for being efficient when he was playing with Kwame and Smush. Also, for the record in that game 7 Kobe was 6/24 and had 2 assists not 7. LeBron has been having a huge impact on every facet of the game and thats why hes getting praise, its not just the volume scoring. I mean he had 11 assists and 16 boards last night which would be absolutely insane for anyone not named LeBron.



Yeah I get all that, the reality is, he shot 32% on the road against the best team in the NBA in the finals on 35 shots, peope are acting like he had no help, you can not win, with your best player taking 35 shots on 32% shooting and not get help from others. His rebounds and assists were great, but if you cant see that LeBron is holding the ball way too much and playing hero ball, I dont know what to say, they were lucky to get out of GSW with a W, he was like 3-11 or something like that from the 4th quarter on.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 06:04 PM
Yeah I get all that, the reality is, he shot 32% on the road against the best team in the NBA in the finals on 35 shots, peope are acting like he had no help, you can not win, with your best player taking 35 shots on 32% shooting and not get help from others. His rebounds and assists were great, but if you cant see that LeBron is holding the ball way too much and playing hero ball, I dont know what to say, they were lucky to get out of GSW with a W, he was like 3-11 or something like that from the 4th quarter on.

Of course hes playing hero ball! Thats the Cavs gameplan right now and it seems to be working better than anyone thought. Slow the game down and keep GS out of rhythm. Play tough defense and let LeBron control the game because honestly with the exception of JR (whose been playing pretty bad so far in the Finals) there isnt one player that can create their own shot. Ugly games like last night favor the Cavs every time. Of course LeBron isnt doing it alone i domt think anyones even saying that but you cant say that this is an ideal supporting cast. LeBron and the Cavs are just outworking the Warriors and part of that is because of LeBrons hunger and leadership. This is a group of guys that were castoffs but they're playing for eachother and trying to win against the odds. Also, LeBron's numbers late in the game would've been much better but he inexplicably couldnt buy a foul call. Even on the last shot in regulation he got right by Iggy but the refs let him pretty much bear hug him.

Jamiecballer
06-08-2015, 06:43 PM
Dido
****, you know Dido!?

Tony_Starks
06-08-2015, 07:37 PM
The argument about players not being about to create their own shot on this team as some huge obstacle is amusing. ( btw JR has been getting his own buckets since highschool and Mozgov has post game and a mid range)

So wait you mean to tell me that a guy that's primary game is drive and kick or probe for open shooters off the pick is surrounded by ( dot dot dot) catch and shoot players??!!!!! And they actually have success playing like that?

Imagine that!

Jamiecballer
06-08-2015, 08:10 PM
The argument about players not being about to create their own shot on this team as some huge obstacle is amusing. ( btw JR has been getting his own buckets since highschool and Mozgov has post game and a mid range)

So wait you mean to tell me that a guy that's primary game is drive and kick or probe for open shooters off the pick is surrounded by ( dot dot dot) catch and shoot players??!!!!! And they actually have success playing like that?

Imagine that!
You've got a good point. The lack of shot creators is only a real hindrance ironically when the star player isn't inclined to pass. That's what makes Lebron special, for all his talent he still wants to play team basketball and the proof is in the pudding.

mngopher35
06-08-2015, 08:12 PM
This whole thread is stupid, if you can win a game against the best team in the NBA on there homecourt in the finals, and your best player ( LeBron) shoots 32% on 35 shots, your supporting cast is pretty good. They may not be the best offensively, but on D, this team is better now than when Kyrie and Love are on the floor.

I specifically remember many of you on here bashing Kobe for going 8-24 in a closeout game of the finals, basically saying his team didnt need him to win, eventhough he finished with 24 points 15 rebounds and like 7 assists, but he was not needed for the Lakers to win the championship.

News flash, Timofy Mozgov had 17 and 10 in 29 minutes in the biggest game of the year and he did not sniff the court from the 4th quarter on, why, because LeBron needed space to operate. LeBron shot 32% from the field, yet know one in here is mentioning field goal percentage like they would for Kobe. Why is that? Such a double standard on here. But this just validates Kobes argument for being great. Every LeBron fan talks efficiency when talking Kobe, now LeBron is playing the best he ever has, and guess what, his efficiency sucks, some things matter more then just your fiield goal percentage, that is all I'm saying. Cant have it both ways LeBron fans, and just like Kobe, if he has a bad shoting game, others must step up, guess what, thats what happened last night.

Don't whine when people bring up Kobe and then do the same yourself in other threads about Lebron. If you want to compare the games that is fine but Kobe's game 7 was easily worse for many reasons.

The biggest difference is that Lebron had a great overall game and was needed to create most of the cavs offense due to their injuries (I am pretty sure every basket mozgov has made was assisted). His offensive rating (better judge of players efficiency than fg%) was 110 which is higher than everyone else on the cavs but Mozgov and Jones who as stated get their plays created for them. So Lebron had less help around him, did more outside of the poor shooting (creating for others), and did all of this at a higher volume while being way more efficient compared to his teammates.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 08:44 PM
The argument about players not being about to create their own shot on this team as some huge obstacle is amusing. ( btw JR has been getting his own buckets since highschool and Mozgov has post game and a mid range)

So wait you mean to tell me that a guy that's primary game is drive and kick or probe for open shooters off the pick is surrounded by ( dot dot dot) catch and shoot players??!!!!! And they actually have success playing like that?

Imagine that!

If you're referring to me I never said it was some huge obstacle. Lakers guy said LeBron was "holding the ball too much and playing hero ball." The lack of ballhandlers only becomes a hinderance when you make them handle the ball. Hence, this is exactly why LeBron has the ball on isos so much. With the roster they have right now, giving the ball to LeBron damn near every play and having him make decisions is the Cavs best strategy. Not to mention it ruins the Warriors rhythm. I read an article talking about how the Cavs want LeBron to just "empty the clip" aka play hero ball

jerellh528
06-08-2015, 08:52 PM
If you're referring to me I never said it was some huge obstacle. Lakers guy said LeBron was "holding the ball too much and playing hero ball." The lack of ballhandlers only becomes a hinderance when you make them handle the ball. Hence, this is exactly why LeBron has the ball on isos so much. With the roster they have right now, giving the ball to LeBron damn near every play and having him make decisions is the Cavs best strategy. Not to mention it ruins the Warriors rhythm. I read an article talking about how the Cavs want LeBron to just "empty the clip" aka play hero ball

Judging by how inefficient he's been, I'm betting the Warriors would want that too.

JordansBulls
06-08-2015, 09:22 PM
Every team that has won the title has won a game on the road. So regardless had GS went up 2-0 they still would have had to show they could win on the road. Basically no team has ever just won the home games in the finals meaning games 1,2,5,7 or games 1,2,6,7 (prior format from 1985 thru 2013)

5ass
06-08-2015, 09:23 PM
Judging by how inefficient he's been, I'm betting the Warriors would want that too.

Really? Because they just lost their HCA. Barely won game 1.

JordansBulls
06-08-2015, 09:24 PM
Really? Because they just lost their HCA. Barely won game 1.

They barely won games 1 and 2 against Houston as well and even struggled game 1 vs the Pelicans.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 09:25 PM
Judging by how inefficient he's been, I'm betting the Warriors would want that too.

Im not so sure of that. Ask the Warriors before the seties started if they woulda been happy going 1-1 at home to the Cavs without their second and third best players (for game 2). Cavs very easily couldve stolen game 1 as well.

Obviously offense is more of a problem for the Dubs right now but theyre being forced to play ugly east coast basketball and i think the iso hero ball from LeBron contributes to that. It would be one thing if LeBron wasnt getting assists but hes proven over these 2 games that hell still find the shooters. I think the Warriors probably hate seeing LeBrons 11 assists more than his 39 points. If you're going to "let him" get 40 you cant let him get double digit assists also.

jerellh528
06-08-2015, 09:26 PM
Really? Because they just lost their HCA. Barely won game 1.

With playing about as terrible as they have all year. I think they'll be fine

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 09:29 PM
With playing about as terrible as they have all year. I think they'll be fine

Cavs didnt play their best either. LeBron is due for an efficient 40 point game and having some homecooking from the refs will help since he couldnt buy a call towards the end of game 2

jerellh528
06-08-2015, 09:33 PM
Cavs didnt play their best either. LeBron is due for an efficient 40 point game and having some homecooking from the refs will help since he couldnt buy a call towards the end of game 2

So do you have the cavs winning the series?

L8kers4life
06-08-2015, 10:01 PM
Don't whine when people bring up Kobe and then do the same yourself in other threads about Lebron. If you want to compare the games that is fine but Kobe's game 7 was easily worse for many reasons.

The biggest difference is that Lebron had a great overall game and was needed to create most of the cavs offense due to their injuries (I am pretty sure every basket mozgov has made was assisted). His offensive rating (better judge of players efficiency than fg%) was 110 which is higher than everyone else on the cavs but Mozgov and Jones who as stated get their plays created for them. So Lebron had less help around him, did more outside of the poor shooting (creating for others), and did all of this at a higher volume while being way more efficient compared to his teammates.

Who cares dude, thats not what my post is about, I already know Kobe was less efficient, my point is, LeBron fans have a double standard, you can not talk about effiecency for LeBron even if he shoots 32% on 35 shots. But when you guys talk about Kobe, all you hear is efficiency talk. It's a joke. 4 things I have learned from LeBron fans.

1. All of LeBrons teammates have sucked.
2. It doesnt matter how many shots LeBron makes or Misses or what his field goal percentage is, we will only talk about LeBron efficiency if it is seen as a positive for LeBron. ( but anytime someone talks about Kobe, he is a chucker and dont you dare defend him, if you do, you are a kobephile).

3. When you are talking about the GOAT, LeBron must be considered because he went to 5 straight finals (doesnt matter the conference sucks) and he has more efficient stats than anyone else, he must be the GOAT.

4. And finally, wether LeBron wins or Loses, his teammates had nothing to do with the victory, it doesnt matter if LeBron goes 11-35 on 32% shooting, and he touches the ball on every single possesion, his teammates suck, he only shot that percentage cuz his teammates suck, and he created every shot for his team, so therefore he should get all the credit for the W, no matter what, and if you disagree, your a Kobephile....



Also, you make it seem like Kobe didnt have to create shots for , Pau, Bynum, Fisher, Vujecic, Walton, Powell, Ariza, Artest, the only person he really didnt have to create for was Odom. Kobe had to dominate the ball for the Lakers the same way LeBron has to for the Cavs. Kobe was basically the only ball handler and playmaker on the Lakers for the Last 12-14 years, Fish was not a playmaker, Kobe has played with 3 playmakers in his life, and 2 of them Pau and Shaq, created out of the post, the other was Odom.

NYJ - NYY
06-08-2015, 10:19 PM
Offensively his team mates are garbage. J.R is their second option on offense now and I've had bacon less streaky. If someone told me there would be a finals team with J.R as the second option in terms of scoring I would assume they were talking about D-League finals.

Which makes what LeBron is doing even more impressive. Sure the team played an insane caliber of defense last night and the fact that they've got a bunch of decent defenders really helps. But LeBron is more than carrying them offensively now.

If the Cavs win this LeBron will need to have played like he did last night. If he does that three more times then I don't see how anyone can have him as anything other than the best player of his generation. And for those that bother with all time lists (not my thing personally) they would NEED to have him in at least their top 5 if not top 3.

That first part is what me and my knock bretherin have been preaching for years about JR.. And I like jr

buck4493
06-08-2015, 10:19 PM
people focus on his shooting percentage, yes it was fairly bad.

do the 16 rebounds and 11 assists not count?

Tony_Starks
06-08-2015, 10:45 PM
The argument about players not being about to create their own shot on this team as some huge obstacle is amusing. ( btw JR has been getting his own buckets since highschool and Mozgov has post game and a mid range)

So wait you mean to tell me that a guy that's primary game is drive and kick or probe for open shooters off the pick is surrounded by ( dot dot dot) catch and shoot players??!!!!! And they actually have success playing like that?

Imagine that!
You've got a good point. The lack of shot creators is only a real hindrance ironically when the star player isn't inclined to pass. That's what makes Lebron special, for all his talent he still wants to play team basketball and the proof is in the pudding.

So if his skill is in passing, he's passing to people whose skill is to catch and shoot, and its keeping them competitive, what in the hell is the pity party about his "supporting cast" for?

It all just seems like the typical bet hedging, aka if they win its because he did everything and if they lose its because the others didn't do enough.

Its really kind of sad because while people are falling over themselves to get their excuses ready they are missing one of the most entertaining and evenly competitive Finals in years....

Jamiecballer
06-08-2015, 10:54 PM
So if his skill is in passing, he's passing to people whose skill is to catch and shoot, and its keeping them competitive, what in the hell is the pity party about his "supporting cast" for?

It all just seems like the typical bet hedging, aka if they win its because he did everything and if they lose its because the others didn't do enough.

Its really kind of sad because while people are falling over themselves to get their excuses ready they are missing one of the most entertaining and evenly competitive Finals in years....
I get what you mean. Buttttttt, even if you are going to spoon feed players buckets it's preferable to have players of the highest skill on the receiving end. All open looks are not equal.

Besides it's not a pity party at all. It's being reasonable. He hasn't had a particularly well crafted roster (partly his own doing) since he came into the league. And his critics all seem to be of the ringzzzz variety so it's only fair to point out the importance of team in a team sport.

5ass
06-08-2015, 10:59 PM
So if his skill is in passing, he's passing to people whose skill is to catch and shoot, and its keeping them competitive, what in the hell is the pity party about his "supporting cast" for?

It all just seems like the typical bet hedging, aka if they win its because he did everything and if they lose its because the others didn't do enough.

Its really kind of sad because while people are falling over themselves to get their excuses ready they are missing one of the most entertaining and evenly competitive Finals in years....

:laugh: we're comparing his supporting cast to other NBA superstars not your local YMCA team. Theres a reason LeBron is playing so many minutes, and anyway just because he passes the ball doesn't mean the best option is to immediately shoot.

ThePlayoffs
06-08-2015, 11:13 PM
:laugh: we're comparing his supporting cast to other NBA superstars not your local YMCA team. Theres a reason LeBron is playing so many minutes, and anyway just because he passes the ball doesn't mean the best option is to immediately shoot.

Agreed some times it is better to make the extra pass cut to the basket or even feed it inside or back to the player it came from.

Sometimes when I watch the Cavs play all I see is trigger happy players. In game two it was effective but when the Warriors figure out how to stop the Lebron iso and pass strategy I don't think the Cavs will be able to score, even in game two the Cavs had 62 points going into the fourth quarter.

More-Than-Most
06-09-2015, 12:39 AM
Who cares dude, thats not what my post is about, I already know Kobe was less efficient, my point is, LeBron fans have a double standard, you can not talk about effiecency for LeBron even if he shoots 32% on 35 shots. But when you guys talk about Kobe, all you hear is efficiency talk. It's a joke. 4 things I have learned from LeBron fans.

1. All of LeBrons teammates have sucked.
2. It doesnt matter how many shots LeBron makes or Misses or what his field goal percentage is, we will only talk about LeBron efficiency if it is seen as a positive for LeBron. ( but anytime someone talks about Kobe, he is a chucker and dont you dare defend him, if you do, you are a kobephile).

3. When you are talking about the GOAT, LeBron must be considered because he went to 5 straight finals (doesnt matter the conference sucks) and he has more efficient stats than anyone else, he must be the GOAT.

4. And finally, wether LeBron wins or Loses, his teammates had nothing to do with the victory, it doesnt matter if LeBron goes 11-35 on 32% shooting, and he touches the ball on every single possesion, his teammates suck, he only shot that percentage cuz his teammates suck, and he created every shot for his team, so therefore he should get all the credit for the W, no matter what, and if you disagree, your a Kobephile....



Also, you make it seem like Kobe didnt have to create shots for , Pau, Bynum, Fisher, Vujecic, Walton, Powell, Ariza, Artest, the only person he really didnt have to create for was Odom. Kobe had to dominate the ball for the Lakers the same way LeBron has to for the Cavs. Kobe was basically the only ball handler and playmaker on the Lakers for the Last 12-14 years, Fish was not a playmaker, Kobe has played with 3 playmakers in his life, and 2 of them Pau and Shaq, created out of the post, the other was Odom.

2 way street though... you guys are all complaining about efficiency now when he is playing kobe ball but at a higher level.... I hate that he shoots this much and am not happy with the missed shots but at the end of the day its amazing performances because of the entire game and the factors that go in... If he was dropping 40/2/2 against a bad team Id be pissed but he dropped 83/24/22 in 2 games... That is all time great right there considering the lack of help he has and the insane team he is playing.

Honestly the only person who has kept their standards has been jerrellh.... He has never praised James more than he has in these playoffs and he has reasoning behind it. I have stated to him several times I hate James shooting this much so as a James fan I am looking at that as well but its not enough to take away the fact that he has put up 83-24-22 against the best team in the world on the road and in the finals with no love and no kyrie for the 2nd game.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2015, 01:42 AM
This Cavs supporting cast looks to be the most terrible offensively in NBA Finals history. Even worse than 2007 Cavs team.

jerellh528
06-09-2015, 02:17 AM
This Cavs supporting cast looks to be the most terrible offensively in NBA Finals history. Even worse than 2007 Cavs team.

Which do you think was better defensively? Iverson has shown that a high volume scorer, even if inefficient, can have some successes in the postseason with an offensively challenged, yet scrappy, and defensive cast. I don't think they can overcome the Warriors though. They're too good of a team, and curry is too good of a player to be kept playing at this sub par standard. The cavs have been playing phenomenal defense, so credit goes to them big time. But I don't know how much of it is just the Warriors playing worse than they're capable of or have shown all season.

L8kers4life
06-09-2015, 02:23 AM
2 way street though... you guys are all complaining about efficiency now when he is playing kobe ball but at a higher level.... I hate that he shoots this much and am not happy with the missed shots but at the end of the day its amazing performances because of the entire game and the factors that go in... If he was dropping 40/2/2 against a bad team Id be pissed but he dropped 83/24/22 in 2 games... That is all time great right there considering the lack of help he has and the insane team he is playing.

Honestly the only person who has kept their standards has been jerrellh.... He has never praised James more than he has in these playoffs and he has reasoning behind it. I have stated to him several times I hate James shooting this much so as a James fan I am looking at that as well but its not enough to take away the fact that he has put up 83-24-22 against the best team in the world on the road and in the finals with no love and no kyrie for the 2nd game.

Its not about praising LeBron, I have given LeBron plenty of credit, and I also spoke several times of Kobe and his faults, I'm just waiting for one of you LeBron fans to acknowledge that sometimes you have to shoot more in games, your efficiency may take a hit, but sometimes that aggressiveness is needed. Kobe has had to to it, and you guys bash him like no other, LeBrons way works and so does Kobe's.

More-Than-Most
06-09-2015, 03:12 AM
Its not about praising LeBron, I have given LeBron plenty of credit, and I also spoke several times of Kobe and his faults, I'm just waiting for one of you LeBron fans to acknowledge that sometimes you have to shoot more in games, your efficiency may take a hit, but sometimes that aggressiveness is needed. Kobe has had to to it, and you guys bash him like no other, LeBrons way works and so does Kobe's.

I honestly hate it.... If it was Kobe or MJ sure Id agree to a point but james cant play this style of Basketball and be successful over an entire series.... His size makes him capable of playing any basketball position and makes him unguardable but as great as he is it has its weakness and that will come to life say 2 games from now... If the cavs dont win both these games at home the series is over.... LBJ will be dead by game 5.... His size is a strength but has its weakness and he isnt capable of playing every single game from start to finish like an MJ or Kobe could... Max James can do this for 4 or 5 games... I think James is all around better than Kobe/Jordan when you factor in the skill set but it takes a sick individual to be able to hold their body up for the entirety of this kind of series and in that area I think James is 3rd to Kobe/Jordan. Curry and Clay will still be fresh in games 4-5 because they can rest and because James uses double the energy they do at any given time and thats where the series will end,

Its 1-1... Id still say the warriors even if it was 2-0 cavs because of what I stated above.... the first 2 games going to overtime was a blessing for the warriors... James looked like he was running on fumes at the end of the last game.

IKnowHoops
06-09-2015, 03:15 AM
If you're referring to me I never said it was some huge obstacle. Lakers guy said LeBron was "holding the ball too much and playing hero ball." The lack of ballhandlers only becomes a hinderance when you make them handle the ball. Hence, this is exactly why LeBron has the ball on isos so much. With the roster they have right now, giving the ball to LeBron damn near every play and having him make decisions is the Cavs best strategy. Not to mention it ruins the Warriors rhythm. I read an article talking about how the Cavs want LeBron to just "empty the clip" aka play hero ball

Thats a good idea. They want to awaken the beast. And they know that playing off of him is so much easier than anything else. I think its a great strategy. He should look to pass just a little bit more, but he's just missing a good amount at the rim. Good defense has been partly the reason, but also just poor execution on his part, as well has getting hacked...dang, he got hit on that last play to the rim where he missed the layup. Anyway, if he gets those calls in cleveland, a lot of those misses will be foul shots and makes.

IKnowHoops
06-09-2015, 03:18 AM
Every team that has won the title has won a game on the road. So regardless had GS went up 2-0 they still would have had to show they could win on the road. Basically no team has ever just won the home games in the finals meaning games 1,2,5,7 or games 1,2,6,7 (prior format from 1985 thru 2013)

Good omen for the Cavs, good looking out.

IKnowHoops
06-09-2015, 03:21 AM
So do you have the cavs winning the series?

Yes

IKnowHoops
06-09-2015, 03:26 AM
So if his skill is in passing, he's passing to people whose skill is to catch and shoot, and its keeping them competitive, what in the hell is the pity party about his "supporting cast" for?

It all just seems like the typical bet hedging, aka if they win its because he did everything and if they lose its because the others didn't do enough.

Its really kind of sad because while people are falling over themselves to get their excuses ready they are missing one of the most entertaining and evenly competitive Finals in years....

Because literally no other player in the league could win with this cast. Hebron just has the "Neo" skill set and can make a team with these players into the best team in the league. I REPEAT, no other player in the league, and probably league history, could make this team the best team in the league. Not without Kyrie, and Love. NO.

IKnowHoops
06-09-2015, 03:46 AM
Its not about praising LeBron, I have given LeBron plenty of credit, and I also spoke several times of Kobe and his faults, I'm just waiting for one of you LeBron fans to acknowledge that sometimes you have to shoot more in games, your efficiency may take a hit, but sometimes that aggressiveness is needed. Kobe has had to to it, and you guys bash him like no other, LeBrons way works and so does Kobe's.

I agree, but Lebron has been playing bad offensively. Everyone can see that. Kobe was always bad offensively. Lebron for the most part of his career has been way more efficient than this. He's playing against a great defense as well so sometimes your just going to shoot bad, but Kobe rarely shot with great efficiency. Lebron usually does. If he shoots at a poor pct for the rest of the series, then maybe thats what he has been reduced to now, but I don't think that is the case. I think he is off, his 3pt shot is definitely off and has nothing to do with physical regression.

sammyvine
06-09-2015, 06:56 AM
I agree, but Lebron has been playing bad offensively. Everyone can see that. Kobe was always bad offensively. Lebron for the most part of his career has been way more efficient than this. He's playing against a great defense as well so sometimes your just going to shoot bad, but Kobe rarely shot with great efficiency. Lebron usually does. If he shoots at a poor pct for the rest of the series, then maybe thats what he has been reduced to now, but I don't think that is the case. I think he is off, his 3pt shot is definitely off and has nothing to do with physical regression.

I dont understand how kobe Bryant is relevant. He isn't playing for any of these teams so why is he being discussed?

Goose17
06-09-2015, 09:03 AM
Because literally no other player in the league could win with this cast. Hebron just has the "Neo" skill set and can make a team with these players into the best team in the league. I REPEAT, no other player in the league, and probably league history, could make this team the best team in the league. Not without Kyrie, and Love. NO.

I agree with no other player right now. Not convinced all-time though.

Jamiecballer
06-09-2015, 09:08 AM
I dont understand how kobe Bryant is relevant. He isn't playing for any of these teams so why is he being discussed?

i guess you took the time to read his post but not the one that he was replying to, it's right there on your damn screen dude.

kdspurman
06-09-2015, 09:22 AM
Because literally no other player in the league could win with this cast. Hebron just has the "Neo" skill set and can make a team with these players into the best team in the league. I REPEAT, no other player in the league, and probably league history, could make this team the best team in the league. Not without Kyrie, and Love. NO.

That hasn't been proven that they're the best team in the league. And surely in history there are guys who could get through the East with that squad and be successful/competitive against GS.

mngopher35
06-09-2015, 02:05 PM
Who cares dude, thats not what my post is about, I already know Kobe was less efficient, my point is, LeBron fans have a double standard, you can not talk about effiecency for LeBron even if he shoots 32% on 35 shots. But when you guys talk about Kobe, all you hear is efficiency talk. It's a joke. 4 things I have learned from LeBron fans.

This isn't true. Many people have pointed out his poor efficiency so far, myself included. That doesn't change the fact that it was still a good performance given the circumstances which is why people are also pointing that out. Just because they both shot about the same fg% doesn't mean that their games were the same so this comparison doesn't work.


1. All of LeBrons teammates have sucked.

Not at all, it's just that compared to other great teams they don't match up. They are missing kyrie/love and now have a team full of role players with Lebron. These guys have been playing very good though and deserve credit for their play throughout the last few series.


2. It doesnt matter how many shots LeBron makes or Misses or what his field goal percentage is, we will only talk about LeBron efficiency if it is seen as a positive for LeBron. ( but anytime someone talks about Kobe, he is a chucker and dont you dare defend him, if you do, you are a kobephile).

Once again you are just making things up. Sure a couple of homers always go overboard but for the most part this is not the case. Lebron wasn't efficient but he also has to do a lot more for his team and was still far more efficient overall than Kobe was in that game 7 (110 Ortg compared to 88).


3. When you are talking about the GOAT, LeBron must be considered because he went to 5 straight finals (doesnt matter the conference sucks) and he has more efficient stats than anyone else, he must be the GOAT.

Once again most people aren't saying this you are just being ridiculous. Can you give me a few examples of people saying this please because I just don't believe this has been said? I haven't seen many people making a huge deal out of the 5 straight finals, it's a good accomplishment but not career defining or anything (and I haven't seen it made out to be). The chances of Lebron ever passing MJ are very slim and most people on here have said there is a long way to go.


4. And finally, wether LeBron wins or Loses, his teammates had nothing to do with the victory, it doesnt matter if LeBron goes 11-35 on 32% shooting, and he touches the ball on every single possesion, his teammates suck, he only shot that percentage cuz his teammates suck, and he created every shot for his team, so therefore he should get all the credit for the W, no matter what, and if you disagree, your a Kobephile....

Well he does create a ton for that team and his teammates are pretty poor on offense, that is the truth. Right now even with how inefficient Lebron has been shooting the ball he is only behind Mozgov and Jones in ts% for the series. The difference is that every single one of their shots has been off of an assists so far this series, literally.

They are efficient partly/mostly because someone else is creating for them. So Lebron is shooting more efficient than most other cavs (his overall ortg is higher than everyone but moz too), is creating for them since most can't on their own (right now JR has had the least amount of his baskets assisted and it's still at 62.5%), and is taking on a crazy volume since no one else on the team creates much.

His efficiency does matter, but it is actually pretty good compared to the rest of his teammates. He is averaging 41.5/12/8.5 on better efficiency than most of his team while creating their offense and playing 48 minutes a game. Of course he will get some praise for that, as he should.




Also, you make it seem like Kobe didnt have to create shots for , Pau, Bynum, Fisher, Vujecic, Walton, Powell, Ariza, Artest, the only person he really didnt have to create for was Odom. Kobe had to dominate the ball for the Lakers the same way LeBron has to for the Cavs. Kobe was basically the only ball handler and playmaker on the Lakers for the Last 12-14 years, Fish was not a playmaker, Kobe has played with 3 playmakers in his life, and 2 of them Pau and Shaq, created out of the post, the other was Odom.

Seriously just stop with your comparisons, these aren't the same situations. I know you love Kobe but he had a poor game 7, you have to let it go. I find it funny you are trying to talk about how crazy/over the top Lebron fans can be and then try and compare these two situations that are clearly different to prop up Kobe.

In that game 7 Kobe shot the ball worse than Pau/fisher/metta/odom and only had 2 assists so he wasn't creating nearly as much (his ortg was lower than all of them as well). Kobe was far less efficient than Lebron last game, less efficient than his teammates, and wasn't creating for teammates. Kobe did not have to dominate the ball quite like Lebron though (lower usage %) and his teammates were better than this current Cleveland group. In fact during that Boston series not a single player mentioned for LA had more than 50% of their shots assisted so most of them could make some plays on their own. Having Pau/Odom is much better than what Lebron has now to help him create and it is why he has to take on a bigger load.

The situations are different and Lebron has to do more for this team than Kobe did for LA. I'm sorry but when you factor everything in Lebrons last game was much better than Kobe's game 7 vs. Boston.

jerellh528
06-09-2015, 02:54 PM
This isn't true. Many people have pointed out his poor efficiency so far, myself included. That doesn't change the fact that it was still a good performance given the circumstances which is why people are also pointing that out. Just because they both shot about the same fg% doesn't mean that their games were the same so this comparison doesn't work.



Not at all, it's just that compared to other great teams they don't match up. They are missing kyrie/love and now have a team full of role players with Lebron. These guys have been playing very good though and deserve credit for their play throughout the last few series.



Once again you are just making things up. Sure a couple of homers always go overboard but for the most part this is not the case. Lebron wasn't efficient but he also has to do a lot more for his team and was still far more efficient overall than Kobe was in that game 7 (110 Ortg compared to 88).



Once again most people aren't saying this you are just being ridiculous. Can you give me a few examples of people saying this please because I just don't believe this has been said? I haven't seen many people making a huge deal out of the 5 straight finals, it's a good accomplishment but not career defining or anything (and I haven't seen it made out to be). The chances of Lebron ever passing MJ are very slim and most people on here have said there is a long way to go.



Well he does create a ton for that team and his teammates are pretty poor on offense, that is the truth. Right now even with how inefficient Lebron has been shooting the ball he is only behind Mozgov and Jones in ts% for the series. The difference is that every single one of their shots has been off of an assists so far this series, literally.

They are efficient partly/mostly because someone else is creating for them. So Lebron is shooting more efficient than most other cavs (his overall ortg is higher than everyone but moz too), is creating for them since most can't on their own (right now JR has had the least amount of his baskets assisted and it's still at 62.5%), and is taking on a crazy volume since no one else on the team creates much.

His efficiency does matter, but it is actually pretty good compared to the rest of his teammates. He is averaging 41.5/12/8.5 on better efficiency than most of his team while creating their offense and playing 48 minutes a game. Of course he will get some praise for that, as he should.





Seriously just stop with your comparisons, these aren't the same situations. I know you love Kobe but he had a poor game 7, you have to let it go. I find it funny you are trying to talk about how crazy/over the top Lebron fans can be and then try and compare these two situations that are clearly different to prop up Kobe.

In that game 7 Kobe shot the ball worse than Pau/fisher/metta/odom and only had 2 assists so he wasn't creating nearly as much (his ortg was lower than all of them as well). Kobe was far less efficient than Lebron last game, less efficient than his teammates, and wasn't creating for teammates. Kobe did not have to dominate the ball quite like Lebron though (lower usage %) and his teammates were better than this current Cleveland group. In fact during that Boston series not a single player mentioned for LA had more than 50% of their shots assisted so most of them could make some plays on their own. Having Pau/Odom is much better than what Lebron has now to help him create and it is why he has to take on a bigger load.

The situations are different and Lebron has to do more for this team than Kobe did for LA. I'm sorry but when you factor everything in Lebrons last game was much better than Kobe's game 7 vs. Boston.

You mean you actually have to contextualize %'s ? Interesting concept!
I haven't checked in a few days, but Lebron has actually been the most inefficient player on the entire cavs playoff rotation by a large margin, has it changed much?

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-09-2015, 03:16 PM
Anthony Davis was having a better series than Lebron is having so far against the same team, but his team got swept. Is the Cavs roster better than Davis' supporting cast?

mngopher35
06-09-2015, 03:39 PM
You mean you actually have to contextualize %'s ? Interesting concept!
I haven't checked in a few days, but Lebron has actually been the most inefficient player on the entire cavs playoff rotation by a large margin, has it changed much?

I haven't checked either but ya he has been less efficient this post season for sure, especially his jumper. I bet his TS and ORTG will be lower than his teammates with how he has been playing. This series he has been creating a ton for everyone (he has helped create 125/195 points for the cavs I believe) on better efficiency than the team avg.

You should always use the #'s with context though, true.

bucketss
06-09-2015, 04:19 PM
Anthony Davis was having a better series than Lebron is having so far against the same team, but his team got swept. Is the Cavs roster better than Davis' supporting cast?

yes it is. cavs are a super team, with all star jr smith, and the best defensive player in the league in shumpert. don't forget the greatest defensive pg since gary payton in delly ;)

Jamiecballer
06-09-2015, 04:30 PM
Anthony Davis was having a better series than Lebron is having so far against the same team, but his team got swept. Is the Cavs roster better than Davis' supporting cast?

nope. i'd say no at least.

ManRam
06-09-2015, 04:45 PM
Flea hasn't been back to support his "LeBron has never won a ring as a team's primary scorer" after getting questioned on it? Stunning.


I think the obvious thing people are dancing around is that there are times when good players play poorly and bad players play well. A "bad supporting cast" can have great games and help a team beat a better team. A "great supporting cast" can have awful games. That's why games are played!

We've seen it both ways with LeBron (as have we seen him play great and poorly with poor and great casts). Guys have stepped up for the Cavs these playoffs, at times. I think we're back to realizing that JR is an enigma and "streaky" might even be polite...but a few weeks ago people were ripping the Knicks for trading him. That perfectly exemplifies it. He's not a great player, but at times he can play great. Delly is not a great, or even good, NBA player...but at times he has played great. Iman Shumpert is the same. So on and so forth.

A lot of them have stepped up when most needed and that's why I've gotten so much joy out of it. But them stepping up doesn't change who they are and always have been. And we know who JR Smith, Iman Shumpert, Matthew Dellevedova and Timofy Mozgov are. Their peaks and valleys in a tiny sample size don't change that.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2015, 04:50 PM
Which do you think was better defensively? Iverson has shown that a high volume scorer, even if inefficient, can have some successes in the postseason with an offensively challenged, yet scrappy, and defensive cast. I don't think they can overcome the Warriors though. They're too good of a team, and curry is too good of a player to be kept playing at this sub par standard. The cavs have been playing phenomenal defense, so credit goes to them big time. But I don't know how much of it is just the Warriors playing worse than they're capable of or have shown all season.

The defense will regress as the series goes on. Compared to other NBA finals teams, they're nothing special defensively too.

Chronz
06-09-2015, 05:36 PM
The worst Finals cast (outside their best player) since......... maybe the Knicks? Maybe as far back as the .500 Rockets led by Moses but that depends on how you define talent/impact I guess.

5ass
06-09-2015, 06:03 PM
You mean you actually have to contextualize %'s ? Interesting concept!
I haven't checked in a few days, but Lebron has actually been the most inefficient player on the entire cavs playoff rotation by a large margin, has it changed much?

Of course you have to contextualize %'s. Say Kobe shoots 55% for one series and LeBron shoots 53% TS, but Kobe does it vs the Nash PHX suns and LeBron does it vs the Wallace Pistons. Don't you think we should take into account the defense they're going up against?

flea
06-09-2015, 08:19 PM
Flea hasn't been back to support his "LeBron has never won a ring as a team's primary scorer" after getting questioned on it? Stunning..

I responded, guess you missed it. You won't find many basketball fans (read: not Lebronophiles) who think Lebron is a better scorer than Wade. Better offensive player? Most people would certainly agree with that, but not better scorer. Wade's ability in the midrange, post and paint is better than pretty much any guard except MJ. TS% does not a scorer make - otherwise Larry Bird would be a worse scorer than Magic Johnson, Dirk, Lebron, and a host of other players and no serious fan believes that.

You've been watching these playoffs at least, why do you think Lebron is struggling against set defenses? Because of "no help" thing? Why did it happen in Miami vs. the Pacers and Spurs? You don't need to look at stats to see that his offensive game is more about transition, matchups (off switches usually), and jumpers. When he went to the post before this year it was to look to pass out of it. Now he's looking to score out of it and his percentages are terrible.

Wade in 2012 crunchtime (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=wadedw01&match=single&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg) and 2013 crunchtime (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=wadedw01&match=single&year_id=2013&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg).

Lebron in 2012 crunchtime (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=single&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg) and 2013 crunchtime. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=single&year_id=2013&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg)

Now, as with all situational stats, you can't really make any grand conclusions from this. But you can see they took about the same amount of shots, in spite of Lebron being the "better scorer" allegedly, and Wade was way more successful. You sort of have to watch the games progress to really isolate spots where you need offense - and Lebron certainly isn't bad at it or anything. But it's not hating on his game to recognize that Wade had a better arsenal for that - just like it's not hating on Magic Johnson's game to recognize that Larry Bird had a better arsenal as a scorer.

You can disagree with me, but there is at least a strong argument that Wade was as good or better of a scorer on those Heat championship teams. That is different from this season - when Lebron needs to be a giant part of his team's offense if they're going to win any games. Unsurprisingly, he has struggled mightily late in games thus far in that role. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=single&year_id=2015&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg) Believe whatever excuse you want, but keep acting like a petulant child in your posts and I'll ignore you like I do the rest of the Lebronophiles (except IKnowHoops, he is a good poster).

mngopher35
06-09-2015, 08:45 PM
Why do those shot references help your point, they are just a random set of parameters? I have never heard anyone say this player is a better scorer because he scored the most with 6 minutes left of a 3 point game.

If someones opinion of crunchtime is a 5 point game instead of a 3 point game over than span then Lebron has a better efg% both years. Or if you want to look at the final 2 minutes instead of final 6 then lebron is far better (8/20 compared to 3/14) etc. etc.

flea
06-09-2015, 08:51 PM
I said you can't take any isolated period and make giant conclusions from it, what I was showing was that they take about the same amount of shot attempts late and close. I did the last half of the 4th in the playoffs of 1 possession games - that seems like a pretty good time to get a basket to me. But again, you need to watch the games unfold to really know. Sometimes your team really needs a basket with 6 minutes left in the 3rd to stop a run and preserve a lead, etc.

mngopher35
06-09-2015, 09:04 PM
I said you can't take any isolated period and make giant conclusions from it, what I was showing was that they take about the same amount of shot attempts late and close. I did the last half of the 4th in the playoffs of 1 possession games - that seems like a pretty good time to get a basket to me. But again, you need to watch the games unfold to really know. Sometimes your team really needs a basket with 6 minutes left in the 3rd to stop a run and preserve a lead, etc.

Alright but looking at the crunchtime numbers as a whole it looks like they shoot about the same and Lebron generally shoots a little better. You said "Wade was way more successful" as if these helped prove it but in reality your set of parameters was one of the few ways to get that result.

I agree you have to watch the games but if you were watching the heat in 12/13 playoffs and thought wade was the best scorer out there then I don't trust your eyes. I agree that Lebron isn't a skilled scorer like others but he is still better than people with more skill.

L8kers4life
06-09-2015, 09:13 PM
Why do those shot references help your point, they are just a random set of parameters? I have never heard anyone say this player is a better scorer because he scored the most with 6 minutes left of a 3 point game.

If someones opinion of crunchtime is a 5 point game instead of a 3 point game over than span then Lebron has a better efg% both years. Or if you want to look at the final 2 minutes instead of final 6 then lebron is far better (8/20 compared to 3/14) etc. etc.


I get your point, but this is exactly what I mean, even if a person has a stat that shows unfavorable against LeBron, people who defend LeBron will never concede the fact, ever! There is no point, they will always find a way to make a stat seem irrelevant,its hilarious.

Basically this stat shows, that with the game on the line, in the finals, in a close game, LeBron was drastically inefficient in scoring vs Wade, on about the same amount of shots. Defenses tighten up at the end of the game, and when the teams best defense was in play, LeBron struggled much more than Wade, and basically Wade carried them in close game in the Finals, when they needed a bucket, they went to Wade. But because it is LeBron, lets find a way to make this stat seem irrelevant, it's freakin annoying.

mngopher35
06-09-2015, 09:49 PM
I get your point, but this is exactly what I mean, even if a person has a stat that shows unfavorable against LeBron, people who defend LeBron will never concede the fact, ever! There is no point, they will always find a way to make a stat seem irrelevant,its hilarious.

Basically this stat shows, that with the game on the line, in the finals, in a close game, LeBron was drastically inefficient in scoring vs Wade, on about the same amount of shots. Defenses tighten up at the end of the game, and when the teams best defense was in play, LeBron struggled much more than Wade, and basically Wade carried them in close game in the Finals, when they needed a bucket, they went to Wade. But because it is LeBron, lets find a way to make this stat seem irrelevant, it's freakin annoying.

What is freaking annoying is laker fans complaining around this place and then when you answer them they ignore your posts and carry on with whining.

The stats he provided did not show that "with the game on the line, in the finals, in a close game, lebron was drastically inefficient vs wade on about the same amount of shots". First of all this isn't about the finals it's the playoffs. Also as I already pointed out when the game was on the line (I used final 2 minutes) Lebron was way more efficient than wade on more shots (8/20 compared to 3/14). My point of that last post was to show that although with those set parameters his conclusion seemed alright that in reality most of them show Lebron was better in these situations (all depends on your defenition of clutch).

Instead of trying to understand that you instead decided to draw your own conclusions (that are about as far off as can be for something so simple) and get mad because someone defended Lebron. I'm not making this stat irrelevant because it favors wade, I am saying he didn't look at the whole picture since most of those stats favor Lebron (he either didn't look into it or chose to have it that way).

LakerShow
06-09-2015, 11:55 PM
LeBron supporting cast isn't even bad. And these last games have shown it.

jneises21
06-10-2015, 12:00 AM
LeBron supporting cast isn't even bad. And these last games have shown it.

Not sure if serious. Delly has been a nice surprise, and they are good on defense. But that's it

Clippersfan86
06-10-2015, 12:05 AM
If Lebron leads the Cavs to this title.. easily most impressive title of all time. Not only is it the 60th out of 62 ranked finals teams all time for worst statistical supporting casts ever, but it's also AGAINST one of the statistically most dominant teams ever.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-10-2015, 12:11 AM
LeBron supporting cast isn't even bad. And these last games have shown it.

Not really. They are extremely overachieving right now.

They are naturally "bad" who just happen to be playing well. Kinda like when Wade and Bosh sucked in the finals that 1 year, even though they are all stars.

L8kers4life
06-10-2015, 12:22 AM
What is freaking annoying is laker fans complaining around this place and then when you answer them they ignore your posts and carry on with whining.

The stats he provided did not show that "with the game on the line, in the finals, in a close game, lebron was drastically inefficient vs wade on about the same amount of shots". First of all this isn't about the finals it's the playoffs. Also as I already pointed out when the game was on the line (I used final 2 minutes) Lebron was way more efficient than wade on more shots (8/20 compared to 3/14). My point of that last post was to show that although with those set parameters his conclusion seemed alright that in reality most of them show Lebron was better in these situations (all depends on your defenition of clutch).

Instead of trying to understand that you instead decided to draw your own conclusions (that are about as far off as can be for something so simple) and get mad because someone defended Lebron. I'm not making this stat irrelevant because it favors wade, I am saying he didn't look at the whole picture since most of those stats favor Lebron (he either didn't look into it or chose to have it that way).

I agree with you bro, and to be honest, it's not worth arguing anymore, what LeBron is doing is historic. I don't care if he shoots 50 shots on 20% shooting, at this point what he is doing is amazing, and he has shown me heart, grit and a toughnes, I can't help but appreciate.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-10-2015, 12:28 AM
LeBron supporting cast isn't even bad. And these last games have shown it.

Lebrons cast has been out playing Currys cast.

Moz is outplaying Bogut
TT is outplaying Green.
Dely is playing out of his mind. Barnes is not playing well.

The only player that has really stepped up for the Warriors was Dlee tonight.

OceanSpray
06-10-2015, 12:31 AM
Lebrons cast has been out playing Currys cast.

Moz is outplaying Bogut
TT is outplaying Green.
Dely is playing out of his mind. Barnes is not playing well.

The only player that has really stepped up for the Warriors was Dlee tonight.

Oh stop it. LeBron's cast has been outplayed them because Bron is a leader. No one gave them a chance, don't even start with that nonsense. The fact is, every thing happens the way for it a reason. Unquestionably, this roster wouldn't last all season. Warriors were the highest ranked team and have been labeled a top 5 team EVER statistically. We need to look at what LeBron is doing for his team right now: Missed a total of 12 minutes out of a possible, 154. Averaging 41/12/8. This team is playing well but don't mistake that for being "better." No one will help you with that argument.

JordansBulls
06-10-2015, 01:30 AM
Anthony Davis was having a better series than Lebron is having so far against the same team, but his team got swept. Is the Cavs roster better than Davis' supporting cast?

Well the games GS won they were barely winning as well against them.

JordansBulls
06-10-2015, 01:31 AM
Lebron's cast isn't better than Curry's, problem is is that Barnes and Green haven't shown up. G.S. has been down at the half in each of the first 3 as well. Kerr needs to start Iggy and Lee now and bench Barnes and Green. That could change things in there favor.

Demon11
06-10-2015, 02:18 AM
Lebron's cast isn't better than Curry's, problem is is that Barnes and Green haven't shown up. G.S. has been down at the half in each of the first 3 as well. Kerr needs to start Iggy and Lee now and bench Barnes and Green. That could change things in there favor.

I agree, LBJ has been starting the games too hot and its because of Barnes.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 02:38 AM
Lebron's cast isn't better than Curry's, problem is is that Barnes and Green haven't shown up. G.S. has been down at the half in each of the first 3 as well. Kerr needs to start Iggy and Lee now and bench Barnes and Green. That could change things in there favor.
Good call. They also need to try a diffrrent defensive scheme. They need to load up the side that Lebron has the ball and make him swing it. He will and they just need to close out as hard as they can on the shooter. But allowing him to always back down into the paint one on one is not a good idea.

Hotone1401
06-10-2015, 05:17 AM
Oh stop it. LeBron's cast has been outplayed them because Bron is a leader. No one gave them a chance, don't even start with that nonsense. The fact is, every thing happens the way for it a reason. Unquestionably, this roster wouldn't last all season. Warriors were the highest ranked team and have been labeled a top 5 team EVER statistically. We need to look at what LeBron is doing for his team right now: Missed a total of 12 minutes out of a possible, 154. Averaging 41/12/8. This team is playing well but don't mistake that for being "better." No one will help you with that argument.

Except me because it seems as though I'm the only person on this site who didn't believe the hype with the Warriors and was able to judge the matchup problems that the Cavs presented them. I'm really the only one who knows anything about basketball on this forum. I've been on record before this series started saying that the Cavs would win and Lebron's teammates were completely underrated. Don't believe me? Just go check the record.

None of your stats mean *****. You guys don't have metrics for heart, hustle, toughness, and effort. You also don't factor in playing styles and defensive schemes. The Cavs lock down the paint and own the boards. Simply put, they will always have a great chance of beating a one dimensional jump shooting team like the Dubs in the postseason.

sammyvine
06-10-2015, 05:57 AM
Lebron's 'cast' are playing amazing.

Can people get a grip. This isn't a one man sport. Of course Lebron is playing very well as well but all the role players for the cavs have stepped up like TT and Dellavadova. Lebron played well in last years finals as well but the heat role players didn't show up.

ManRam
06-10-2015, 12:07 PM
I responded, guess you missed it. You won't find many basketball fans (read: not Lebronophiles) who think Lebron is a better scorer than Wade. Better offensive player? Most people would certainly agree with that, but not better scorer. Wade's ability in the midrange, post and paint is better than pretty much any guard except MJ. TS% does not a scorer make - otherwise Larry Bird would be a worse scorer than Magic Johnson, Dirk, Lebron, and a host of other players and no serious fan believes that.

You've been watching these playoffs at least, why do you think Lebron is struggling against set defenses? Because of "no help" thing? Why did it happen in Miami vs. the Pacers and Spurs? You don't need to look at stats to see that his offensive game is more about transition, matchups (off switches usually), and jumpers. When he went to the post before this year it was to look to pass out of it. Now he's looking to score out of it and his percentages are terrible.

Wade in 2012 crunchtime (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=wadedw01&match=single&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg) and 2013 crunchtime (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=wadedw01&match=single&year_id=2013&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg).

Lebron in 2012 crunchtime (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=single&year_id=2012&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg) and 2013 crunchtime. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=single&year_id=2013&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg)

Now, as with all situational stats, you can't really make any grand conclusions from this. But you can see they took about the same amount of shots, in spite of Lebron being the "better scorer" allegedly, and Wade was way more successful. You sort of have to watch the games progress to really isolate spots where you need offense - and Lebron certainly isn't bad at it or anything. But it's not hating on his game to recognize that Wade had a better arsenal for that - just like it's not hating on Magic Johnson's game to recognize that Larry Bird had a better arsenal as a scorer.

You can disagree with me, but there is at least a strong argument that Wade was as good or better of a scorer on those Heat championship teams. That is different from this season - when Lebron needs to be a giant part of his team's offense if they're going to win any games. Unsurprisingly, he has struggled mightily late in games thus far in that role. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=single&year_id=2015&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=6&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=3&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg) Believe whatever excuse you want, but keep acting like a petulant child in your posts and I'll ignore you like I do the rest of the Lebronophiles (except IKnowHoops, he is a good poster).

I don't give a **** who you think is a "better scorer". You said LeBron wasn't the "primary scorer" on his two championship teams. That's preposterous and there's literally no reason for me to waste more breath on that.


And yes, this has been the worst stretch of scoring playoff basketball of his career. It's not good. In fact, he looks like everything he's become the poster child against. He's even aware of it and uncomfortable with it. It's the stuff that no one cared about during the Iverson era and before, but now we (rightfully) do. It sucks, but it happens. Why is it happening? He's just off. He's the only play-maker on the team. It's a great defense. He's again just off. It's a combination of factors. He deserves blame, but the context matters too. I'm not sitting here praising the guy...in fact, I've been quite critical of him these playoffs. For once those "HE'S NOT CLUTCH" narratives actually work. He hasn't been great in crunch time, despite usually being just that. But what we are seeing now is NOT who he has always been. Pretending like it is is silly. And it is funny seeing Kobe fans critical of his high volume low efficiency when for years and years they've been relentless defenders of just that style...and calling him emotionally weak or whatever for not being more selfish.

Also, I didn't read half your post so pardon me.

He's still potentially going to win a ring with a historically weak supporting cast and you're still mad. So in the end, everyone wins.

flea
06-10-2015, 01:04 PM
I don't give a **** who you think is a "better scorer". You said LeBron wasn't the "primary scorer" on his two championship teams. That's preposterous and there's literally no reason for me to waste more breath on that.

Also, I didn't read half your post so pardon me.

He's still potentially going to win a ring with a historically weak supporting cast and you're still mad. So in the end, everyone wins.

I'm going to just respond to all your posts towards me here and be done with it. I wish you'd told me at first that you were one of those Reddit NBA analysts who throw out TS% and brush their hands together as if the discussion is over with. NBA is not baseball and rate/volume stats take a lot more nuance to parse - much like NFL. For instance, comparing elite bigs with elite wings in terms of overall impact requires a lot more discussion than simply looking at WS/PER and TS%. Additionally, comparing eras with different rules requires some nuance - as does comparing different offensive systems. But I suspect such discussion will fall on deaf ears like it does on other, crappier discussion boards. There are a handful of thoughtful posters around here but they disappear in playoff time, drowned out by the noise of media talking points I guess.

Ironically enough, you're saying Lebron is "off" as the reason he's shooting 42% these playoffs when that's not the case at all. I've said throughout the playoffs that this is what Lebron looks like with 2 true bigs - much less efficient because getting to the rim is very hard with a congested paint. That doesn't mean he's "bad" - but it does mean his individual offense is hampered to a significant degree. His team is playing great defense though and he's still a great ISO player so he's winning - but compared to elites of NBA's history? I don't see it.

Also hilariously enough you're saying I'm on some crusade against Lebron because I don't repeat mantras like "he scores like MJ and passes like Magic and defends 1-5 like Marion." Because it's fiction. However, I am actually rooting for the Cavs in these Finals. Maybe this surprises you but it's true - I love the underdogs more often than not. Lebron is not my favorite player but he's fun to watch when he's on because he's got the best handles in the biggest body I've ever seen. Is he the best scorer, passer, defender, or rebounder I've ever seen? Far from it, but he's very good at all 4 from time to time.

I agree it's his versatility you enjoy when you watch him - but that doesn't mean it's always pleasant to watch. His offense has been ugly most of these playoffs. But it's been good enough to win with the elite defense/rebounding his team has. Know who else's offense was ugly? MJ's Bulls in the 2nd 3peat. Doesn't mean I am on a crusade against MJ - just means I think 18 seconds of standing around and then hero ball from the mid-post is a hideous form of basketball (unless we're talking prime Hakeem or Dirk or something).

So in sum, stick to Reddit if you want to spit out numbers with no context. They love that there.

Chronz
06-10-2015, 04:25 PM
Wait so you're arguing that Bron isn't off with his long ball nor that hes declined physically? Also his iso-style has contributed to his teams defensive stature.