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OceanSpray
06-10-2015, 05:06 PM
Flea said Wade was the better scorer for the Heat. He said Wade is a better post player (YEAH, right. Go check how many points Wade scored off the post because of LeBron's passing.) Flea has been exposed countless times on this forum for his hatred of LeBron James. He blamed James for not doing anything in game 1 of the 2014 NBA Finals but didn't even know James was out for the remaining 7 minutes. That just tells me that this guy just hates to hate. Nothing he says is usually valid. LeBron isn't a scorer, WOOHOO. You said something that James admitted. You said James can't play ISO? Buddy, no one can stop James in an ISO. If you don't think they cram up the paint when James gets there, you need to open your eyes a bit wider. Besides him, his entire team can't score.. well, J.R. Smith can and so far, all he's doing is throwing bricks.

Chronz
06-10-2015, 05:15 PM
Flea said Wade was the better scorer for the Heat. He said Wade is a better post player (YEAH, right. Go check how many points Wade scored off the post because of LeBron's passing.) Flea has been exposed countless times on this forum for his hatred of LeBron James. He blamed James for not doing anything in game 1 of the 2014 NBA Finals but didn't even know James was out for the remaining 7 minutes. That just tells me that this guy just hates to hate. Nothing he says is usually valid. LeBron isn't a scorer, WOOHOO. You said something that James admitted. You said James can't play ISO? Buddy, no one can stop James in an ISO. If you don't think they cram up the paint when James gets there, you need to open your eyes a bit wider. Besides him, his entire team can't score.. well, J.R. Smith can and so far, all he's doing is throwing bricks.

It always seemed like teams put their best wing defender on James because he is the better scorer but I guess that would depend on your subjective definition of what makes someone a greater scorer. I dont put much stock into terms like "pure scoring" when what matters FAR more is your overall offensive ability, and that goes beyond your own scoring. Wade was so inconsistent throughout their tenure because of his health, you really have to isolate which years you felt he was on par with Bron.

Like against the Pacers, Wade was usually done unless Bron got him going or unless he was out there to keep Paul George off of Wade. I remember an article/podcasts from Grantland about Wade's inability to score against PG and how him not being able to step up when Bron went out with cramps against SA being a telling sign of his definite decline.

bucketss
06-10-2015, 05:17 PM
Flea said Wade was the better scorer for the Heat. He said Wade is a better post player (YEAH, right. Go check how many points Wade scored off the post because of LeBron's passing.) Flea has been exposed countless times on this forum for his hatred of LeBron James. He blamed James for not doing anything in game 1 of the 2014 NBA Finals but didn't even know James was out for the remaining 7 minutes. That just tells me that this guy just hates to hate. Nothing he says is usually valid. LeBron isn't a scorer, WOOHOO. You said something that James admitted. You said James can't play ISO? Buddy, no one can stop James in an ISO. If you don't think they cram up the paint when James gets there, you need to open your eyes a bit wider. Besides him, his entire team can't score.. well, J.R. Smith can and so far, all he's doing is throwing bricks.

in another thread he said danny green/boris diaw, outperformed lebron in the 2014 finals.i really believe hes just trying to discredit lebron any way he can.

blams
06-10-2015, 05:23 PM
Wait so you're arguing that Bron isn't off with his long ball nor that hes declined physically? Also his iso-style has contributed to his teams defensive stature.

LeBron may be a bit slower, but he's stronger and better.

He is shooting poorly because he's jacking up shots and his game isn't being a shooter. He's a passer, rebounder, defender, coach, everything else. He has a bad team around him so he has to try to do to much for them to win. If he wasn't doing what he is, he would get hurt. If he drove to the basket every time (which he could with the best of them) he would get even more worn down and they would be done.

Chronz
06-10-2015, 05:51 PM
LeBron may be a bit slower, but he's stronger and better.

He is shooting poorly because he's jacking up shots and his game isn't being a shooter. He's a passer, rebounder, defender, coach, everything else. He has a bad team around him so he has to try to do to much for them to win. If he wasn't doing what he is, he would get hurt. If he drove to the basket every time (which he could with the best of them) he would get even more worn down and they would be done.

I disagree, hes MUCH slower, far less explosive and I find it hard to believe he got stronger as he shed so much weight to preserve his knees. Maybe abit more durable now that he can play insane minutes and theres value in that, but I dont see a superior player today. I see someone with a better mentality and understanding of the game. I think you underestimate how much hes driving, alot of his misses have led to offensive putbacks because hes collapsed the D and just the other night he mentioned how hes not just out there chucking away. Dude is putting pressure on the D with his relentless rim attacks.

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 04:57 AM
I disagree, hes MUCH slower, far less explosive and I find it hard to believe he got stronger as he shed so much weight to preserve his knees. Maybe abit more durable now that he can play insane minutes and theres value in that, but I dont see a superior player today. I see someone with a better mentality and understanding of the game. I think you underestimate how much hes driving, alot of his misses have led to offensive putbacks because hes collapsed the D and just the other night he mentioned how hes not just out there chucking away. Dude is putting pressure on the D with his relentless rim attacks.

Gotta agree with all of this. Bron has lost a good amount of his athletic ability.

Alan Shore
06-11-2015, 05:47 AM
He's still good enough to be no.1, the missed shots happen because it's not his game, but everyone else on this team is pretty useless offensively so he has to take all those shots even if he knows the chance of making it is less.

valade16
06-11-2015, 10:52 AM
I disagree, hes MUCH slower, far less explosive and I find it hard to believe he got stronger as he shed so much weight to preserve his knees. Maybe abit more durable now that he can play insane minutes and theres value in that, but I dont see a superior player today. I see someone with a better mentality and understanding of the game. I think you underestimate how much hes driving, alot of his misses have led to offensive putbacks because hes collapsed the D and just the other night he mentioned how hes not just out there chucking away. Dude is putting pressure on the D with his relentless rim attacks.

I think this is apparent to anyone watching him. he used to be able to blow by nearly anyone and now he has difficulty simply blowing by anyone except bigger guys. He needs to dribble them off balance or wait for an incorrect shift or footwork from the defender.

5 years ago Iggy would not be keeping Bron from driving nearly as effectively as he is doing today.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2015, 11:06 AM
I think this is apparent to anyone watching him. he used to be able to blow by nearly anyone and now he has difficulty simply blowing by anyone except bigger guys. He needs to dribble them off balance or wait for an incorrect shift or footwork from the defender.

5 years ago Iggy would not be keeping Bron from driving nearly as effectively as he is doing today.

getting older is a *****

buck4493
06-11-2015, 01:34 PM
lebron getting older? he is 30 in prime of career, and yes he is blowing by everyone.

Jordan won 3 titles after the age of 32. James is clearly at the top of his game.

Hawkeye15
06-11-2015, 02:32 PM
lebron getting older? he is 30 in prime of career, and yes he is blowing by everyone.

Jordan won 3 titles after the age of 32. James is clearly at the top of his game.

he has clearly lost a step physically. He doesn't have the burst or hops he did 3-4 years ago, it's obvious.

Age is just a number. Minutes played by age 30:

MJ (26,500 roughly), (5,680 playoffs)
LeBron (35,769), (7,429 playoffs)

LeBron has played a ton more minutes than Jordan did at the same age. Hell, Jordan had 41.011 career minutes, and James has already played as many playoff minutes as Jordan did total in his career.

When you go to 5 straight finals, that means 500 NBA games in 5 years. That slows you down, no matter your age.

papipapsmanny
06-11-2015, 03:08 PM
My whole thing is the Lebron has been to 5 straight finals.

I mean in Miami after the Celtics showed their age who was there to beat them? The Pacers? They had Paul George that was about it. West was decent, and Hibbert got overrated in that one series, and Stephenson had his moments but that was the best the east had to offer, which is sad.

This year was a crap shoot. Every team starting losing players. I mean by the time the Cavs saw the Hawks it was not the Hawks anymore.

I honestly believe if John Wall had stayed healthy it would have been Cavs and Wiz, and I think the Wiz could have taken them, certainly not gotten swept. Along the way to and in he finals Lebron lost Love and Irving.

The East was a battlefield this year in terms of injuries.

I believe Jordan played a team in the playoffs that was .500 or worse only twice, and Lebron 7 times so far.

But there is a lot more to put to that perspective. I don't have the time to look at how many 50+ and 60+ teams Jordan played compared to what Lebron has played.

I really hope Durant goes to the Wizards.... and Lebron stays.... because that would be great if they met in the EC Finals.

5ass
06-11-2015, 03:34 PM
My whole thing is the Lebron has been to 5 straight finals.

I mean in Miami after the Celtics showed their age who was there to beat them? The Pacers? They had Paul George that was about it. West was decent, and Hibbert got overrated in that one series, and Stephenson had his moments but that was the best the east had to offer, which is sad.

This year was a crap shoot. Every team starting losing players. I mean by the time the Cavs saw the Hawks it was not the Hawks anymore.

I honestly believe if John Wall had stayed healthy it would have been Cavs and Wiz, and I think the Wiz could have taken them, certainly not gotten swept. Along the way to and in he finals Lebron lost Love and Irving.

The East was a battlefield this year in terms of injuries.

I believe Jordan played a team in the playoffs that was .500 or worse only twice, and Lebron 7 times so far.

But there is a lot more to put to that perspective. I don't have the time to look at how many 50+ and 60+ teams Jordan played compared to what Lebron has played.

I really hope Durant goes to the Wizards.... and Lebron stays.... because that would be great if they met in the EC Finals.

Wait so you're saying east was a battlefield in terms of injuries. I'm guessing you're talking about melo and Paul George. Yet you say pacers are overrated, all they have is Paul george. Let's be real, Knicks weren't going to stop LeBron anyway. Wall got injured during the play offs, that's it in terms of stars getting injured.

How were the hawks not the hawks anymore? They lost some wings, but lets not act like the Cavs are fully healthy. As a matter of fact, most teams in the eat and west were missing some key players. What about taking out a healthy bulls team that would've competed with anyone in the west?
What about Jordan having a better supporting cast for most of his career?

papipapsmanny
06-11-2015, 03:47 PM
I don't even know why I am responding to this since you basically just jumbled up my separate arguments into one that you made up to attack.

Pau Gasol missed two games, in that series and played under 25 min in 2 out of the 4 games he played.

Hawls "lost some wings" yeah they didn't have a star they needed those wings they are truly a team's team.

Yeah Wall got injured in the playoffs, your point? My point was the Hawks probably don't get by them with a healthy Wall since he is what makes the Wizards go. They had enough trouble as it was with no Wall and a limited Wall playing.

The east is pathetic today, and sad to say this year was better than it has been in a while.

5ass
06-11-2015, 04:03 PM
And the warriors faced healthy teams all the way? My point is injuries happened in the east and west. If anything the Cavs were hit the hardest when they lost 2 of their big 3.

FraziersKnicks
06-11-2015, 04:29 PM
I don't think anyone can bring up any injury arguments in regards to the Cavs having an easier ride.

No other team has lost it's #2 and #3 options for most of the playoffs like the Cavs have.

buck4493
06-11-2015, 04:36 PM
What player are people watching saying it's obvious he's lost a step.

FraziersKnicks
06-11-2015, 04:51 PM
What player are people watching saying it's obvious he's lost a step.

Absolutely. His athletic peak was 2005-2010 when he was utterly ridiculous in terms of athleticism. Genuinely never seen a more athletic 6'8, 250 pound guy ever. He played a lot more smart and below the rim in Miami in the post a lot but was still a monster athlete.

He's definitely lost a burst of speed now and he's nowhere near as springy as before, but he seems even more durable and is looking fine after logging huge minutes. Still more athletic than about 90% of the league :laugh2:

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 04:56 PM
He's still good enough to be no.1, the missed shots happen because it's not his game, but everyone else on this team is pretty useless offensively so he has to take all those shots even if he knows the chance of making it is less.

No doubt, he is still the best in the league, and with the loss of explosiveness, he has learned the tricks of the trade, plays more physical, plays more with his back to the basket, bullies people more so he's making up for it and almost breaking even, and sometimes playing better in clutch situations. He's still a beast who can't really be stopped, but he has definitely lost quickness and hops...considering his size, he is still the best athlete in the NBA. Him or Westbrook.

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 05:24 PM
What player are people watching saying it's obvious he's lost a step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21s1PNDD6ME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzM2_DkVz1A

You can't watch these without noticing Lebron is clearly faster with more spring. He's lost a step or two and probably 5-7 inches off his vertical. I personally think he was faster than Iverson or Westbrook. Right now he's not the fastest guy in the league. At the point of these youtube videos, he was easily the fastest guy from one end to the other. He could hawk anyone from any distance it seemed. I remember got to OJ Mayo and he was like 40 feet away and in a second he was there.

Bostonjorge
06-11-2015, 05:40 PM
James cast has been great the entire playoffs not just this series. Cavs bigs are out classing GS bigs so far. James cast are no longer scrubs they ripped away that title.

For once I'm glad James is giving us a amazing finals to watch. He's playing at a great level. James looks like dark vador right now. It will make it better when the good guys finally take him down.

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 05:42 PM
What player are people watching saying it's obvious he's lost a step.

Then of course there is this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z4H9UklTQM

FraziersKnicks
06-11-2015, 05:48 PM
I think Bron's supporting cast can be summed up very simply.

Defensively: Elite
Offensively: Poor

It balances out. Delly, TT, Shump, Mozzy and JR (when he is playing engaged) are all very good defenders, but only JR out of those guys can create his own shot and Mozzy is a good finisher but he can't do anything on his own and has to be spoon fed by Bron. Same with TT.

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 06:03 PM
I think Bron's supporting cast can be summed up very simply.

Defensively: Elite
Offensively: Poor

It balances out. Delly, TT, Shump, Mozzy and JR (when he is playing engaged) are all very good defenders, but only JR out of those guys can create his own shot and Mozzy is a good finisher but he can't do anything on his own and has to be spoon fed by Bron. Same with TT.

There is nobody close to being an all-star currently playing with Bron right now.

Bostonjorge
06-11-2015, 06:23 PM
There is nobody close to being an all-star currently playing with Bron right now.

Delly is playing and has played better then Lowry the all star starter. Thomson is a elite rebounder. They might not be all stars but are certainly playing at a all star level.

mngopher35
06-11-2015, 06:23 PM
There is nobody close to being an all-star currently playing with Bron right now.

Agreed but he's still right. The cavs are a team with lebron and role players and right now everyone is playing better than they should or were expected. Delly has been huge in a ton of ways, mosgov has been great protecting the rim and finishing, Thompson hits the glass hard all game and everyone plays defense. Lebron is also playin great, he's kind of matching curry and klays combined production to help make up for the lack of that 2nd star (and lack of offense).

I'm not sure if they can keep it up and win the series but Cleveland has been impressive so far and it's everyone, even if they aren't all stars.

IKnowHoops
06-11-2015, 06:58 PM
Agreed but he's still right. The cavs are a team with lebron and role players and right now everyone is playing better than they should or were expected. Delly has been huge in a ton of ways, mosgov has been great protecting the rim and finishing, Thompson hits the glass hard all game and everyone plays defense. Lebron is also playin great, he's kind of matching curry and klays combined production to help make up for the lack of that 2nd star (and lack of offense).

I'm not sure if they can keep it up and win the series but Cleveland has been impressive so far and it's everyone, even if they aren't all stars.

I agree with him. They have been playing great all playoff, thats why I picked them to win. But at the same time I know if you replace James with Melo, this team is probably bottom 5 in the league. These guys are great on D, but need Lebron to do his thing in order for them to be effective offensively. Take Bron off the Cavs, and take Curry and Thompson off of the Warriors, and the Warriors smash

BradS4President
06-11-2015, 07:38 PM
What Lebron is doing is great. He elevates the play of everyone else with his play and aggressiveness. Is Delly playing great? Yes. If TT, JR, Iman doing their jobs? Yes.

Lebron James is running the offense and rebounding the ball. JR, Iman, Delly are playing their roles on defense and hitting shots when Lebron james feeds them. That is why they are successful. It all starts with Lebron

fingerbang
06-11-2015, 09:24 PM
He definitely flashed his dick when he was tucking in his shirt. His supporting cast for the world to see.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-11-2015, 11:46 PM
I think Bron's supporting cast can be summed up very simply.

Defensively: Elite
Offensively: Poor

It balances out. Delly, TT, Shump, Mozzy and JR (when he is playing engaged) are all very good defenders, but only JR out of those guys can create his own shot and Mozzy is a good finisher but he can't do anything on his own and has to be spoon fed by Bron. Same with TT.

The 2 stars (Lebron/Curry) casts have been very even in the first 4 games

Moz has been by far the best center.
Thompson has been the best PF
Lebron-Sf (over Barnes)
Thomspon has been the better SG but not playing great
Curry-PG (over Delly)

Tonight both teams played 7-8 guys for most the game.

flea
06-12-2015, 12:01 AM
Wait so you're arguing that Bron isn't off with his long ball nor that hes declined physically? Also his iso-style has contributed to his teams defensive stature.

Yeah he's declined physically, but not like he's dropped off a cliff or anything. Your driving game and your jumper look a lot different when your team plays 5-out ISO or 5-out high ball screen as opposed to mid-post ISOs with 2 true bigs. I think he suffers most in transition from his decline, where he's gone from top 3 all-time to maybe like top 5 currently in the game. That was one of his biggest weapons until recently.

His jumper has actually looked about normal for the Finals, but I would agree it was worse than usual for what I watched of him earlier in the playoffs. He just doesn't work on the wings as much anymore, or on the high post, so his favored spots no longer come naturally in the flow of his offense. I think we're seeing his game evolve from primarily slashing to primarily starting in the mid-post, like Barkley and post-prime MJ. It's sort of ugly ATM but I think he's much improved from years past. He's way quicker with his moves and his decisionmaking has always been fast - it's just his length that will always hold him back from the true elites.

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 12:06 AM
Bron's cast is very similar to the cast AI ran with in 2001. Bron is also forced to play a similar role as AI as a result, and as such is shooting very poor % (for which AI got crucified).

Just funny that the LeBron brigade will call AI an inefficient chucker, downplay his 2001 brilliance by stating how great defensively his cast was and "maybe that was the perfect cast for a guy like AI", lambast him for his % while ignoring the direct impact the offensive talent around you has on your efficiency, and than out of the other side of their mouth praise LeBron for his 40 point games while ignoring his efficiency, crucify his teammates for their lack of offense while ignoring their defensive brilliance so far through 4 games of the Finals.

5ass
06-12-2015, 12:22 AM
The 2 stars (Lebron/Curry) casts have been very even in the first 4 games

Moz has been by far the best center.
Thompson has been the best PF
Lebron-Sf (over Barnes)
Thomspon has been the better SG but not playing great
Curry-PG (over Delly)

Tonight both teams played 7-8 guys for most the game.

Lol and the bench?

Tony_Starks
06-12-2015, 12:48 AM
Bron's cast is very similar to the cast AI ran with in 2001. Bron is also forced to play a similar role as AI as a result, and as such is shooting very poor % (for which AI got crucified).

Just funny that the LeBron brigade will call AI an inefficient chucker, downplay his 2001 brilliance by stating how great defensively his cast was and "maybe that was the perfect cast for a guy like AI", lambast him for his % while ignoring the direct impact the offensive talent around you has on your efficiency, and than out of the other side of their mouth praise LeBron for his 40 point games while ignoring his efficiency, crucify his teammates for their lack of offense while ignoring their defensive brilliance so far through 4 games of the Finals.

Watching Lebron do his version of Iverson has got to be one of the most entertaining and ironic turn of events when it comes to his fanatics.

To see the efficiency Nazis now giving him a pass and acknowledging he's doing what he has to do to keep the team competitive is beyond hilarious......

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-12-2015, 12:51 AM
Bron's cast is very similar to the cast AI ran with in 2001. Bron is also forced to play a similar role as AI as a result, and as such is shooting very poor % (for which AI got crucified).

Just funny that the LeBron brigade will call AI an inefficient chucker, downplay his 2001 brilliance by stating how great defensively his cast was and "maybe that was the perfect cast for a guy like AI", lambast him for his % while ignoring the direct impact the offensive talent around you has on your efficiency, and than out of the other side of their mouth praise LeBron for his 40 point games while ignoring his efficiency, crucify his teammates for their lack of offense while ignoring their defensive brilliance so far through 4 games of the Finals.

Watching Lebron do his version of Iverson has got to be one of the most entertaining and ironic turn of events when it comes to his fanatics.

To see the efficiency Nazis now giving him a pass and acknowledging he's doing what he has to do to keep the team competitive is beyond hilarious......

Right you are

valade16
06-12-2015, 09:03 AM
Delly is playing and has played better then Lowry the all star starter. Thomson is a elite rebounder. They might not be all stars but are certainly playing at a all star level.

Are they? They aren't playing like All-Stars because they aren't playing well rounded basketball at all. Each one is doing the one thing they are asked to do on the court very well outside of Mozzy.

TT is rebounding at an all-star level, but everything else? He is averaging 6.5 PPG on 44% FG.

Delladova is guarding Curry at an all-star level, but everything else? He is averaging 9.8 PPG on 31.7% FG and 23.8% 3PT.

Shumpert and J.R. Smith are averaging a combined 14 PPG on less than 30% shooting each.

Outside of Mozgov, nobody is playing at an all-star level except in one particular skillset, which as we all know, is not enough to be an all-star. You have to be good at more than one thing and right now nobody outside Bron and Mozgov is.

valade16
06-12-2015, 09:04 AM
Watching Lebron do his version of Iverson has got to be one of the most entertaining and ironic turn of events when it comes to his fanatics.

To see the efficiency Nazis now giving him a pass and acknowledging he's doing what he has to do to keep the team competitive is beyond hilarious......

I do agree this is ironic.

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 09:12 AM
Honestly I think he has the right cast to give him the best shot for this particular series. If Kyrie and Love were playing, IMO GSW would run them out of the gym the same way they ran Houston out. If Love was playing heavy minutes GSW would have a better time getting away with their small ball lineup but instead Cleveland is pounding them and making them pay for it. Cleveland doesn't want to try and beat GSW 120-115 because GSW will get the stops they need in those games - they are better equipped to outscore you and out D you. The roster Cleveland has now is making the Dubs look mediocre on offense and that's their best shot to win. Mozzy is also playing at an all star level right now so that should be noted.

Curry and Klay look like scrubs out there - I mean seriously who wins Finals MVP if the Dubs win this series? Iggy?

valade16
06-12-2015, 09:31 AM
Honestly I think he has the right cast to give him the best shot for this particular series. If Kyrie and Love were playing, IMO GSW would run them out of the gym the same way they ran Houston out. If Love was playing heavy minutes GSW would have a better time getting away with their small ball lineup but instead Cleveland is pounding them and making them pay for it. Cleveland doesn't want to try and beat GSW 120-115 because GSW will get the stops they need in those games - they are better equipped to outscore you and out D you. The roster Cleveland has now is making the Dubs look mediocre on offense and that's their best shot to win. Mozzy is also playing at an all star level right now so that should be noted.

Curry and Klay look like scrubs out there - I mean seriously who wins Finals MVP if the Dubs win this series? Iggy?

I think this series really shows the depth of GS. They lost with their small ball lineup and so they switched to starting Lee and Iggy, two former All-Stars who are still very, very good.

What other team has that luxury? To be able to put in 2 players of Lee and Iggy's caliber in the starting lineup based off matchups? GS is so unbelievably loaded as a roster it's hilarious. Not only those 2, but after that they have Livingston and Speights as their 8th and 9th guys.

ewing
06-12-2015, 09:36 AM
Honestly I think he has the right cast to give him the best shot for this particular series. If Kyrie and Love were playing, IMO GSW would run them out of the gym the same way they ran Houston out. If Love was playing heavy minutes GSW would have a better time getting away with their small ball lineup but instead Cleveland is pounding them and making them pay for it. Cleveland doesn't want to try and beat GSW 120-115 because GSW will get the stops they need in those games - they are better equipped to outscore you and out D you. The roster Cleveland has now is making the Dubs look mediocre on offense and that's their best shot to win. Mozzy is also playing at an all star level right now so that should be noted.

Curry and Klay look like scrubs out there - I mean seriously who wins Finals MVP if the Dubs win this series? Iggy?


I definitely think Iggy has been the best player for the Warriors. As for the rest of post i agree and think in general that this style actually maximize LeBron skill set. A ball control offensive highlights phyical dominance and let you set your defense. The Cavs are definitely lacking in fire power and LeBron definitely could shoot more efficiently in a more open game but i think his skills would highlighted best in this sytle to some better shooters around him.

5ass
06-12-2015, 09:49 AM
Honestly I think he has the right cast to give him the best shot for this particular series. If Kyrie and Love were playing, IMO GSW would run them out of the gym the same way they ran Houston out. If Love was playing heavy minutes GSW would have a better time getting away with their small ball lineup but instead Cleveland is pounding them and making them pay for it. Cleveland doesn't want to try and beat GSW 120-115 because GSW will get the stops they need in those games - they are better equipped to outscore you and out D you. The roster Cleveland has now is making the Dubs look mediocre on offense and that's their best shot to win. Mozzy is also playing at an all star level right now so that should be noted.

Curry and Klay look like scrubs out there - I mean seriously who wins Finals MVP if the Dubs win this series? Iggy?

Yes its great how Cavs offense completely fails when LeBron is off the floor. Definitely gives him the best shot to win this series. Well said, I agree 100%.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2015, 10:20 AM
I think this series really shows the depth of GS. They lost with their small ball lineup and so they switched to starting Lee and Iggy, two former All-Stars who are still very, very good.

What other team has that luxury? To be able to put in 2 players of Lee and Iggy's caliber in the starting lineup based off matchups? GS is so unbelievably loaded as a roster it's hilarious. Not only those 2, but after that they have Livingston and Speights as their 8th and 9th guys.

none. The Warriors are so far and away superior to the Cavs roster, it's a joke it took them this long to wake up. Even up 2-1, I felt the Cavs had about a 5% chance at winning this series.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2015, 10:22 AM
I love how people say the current Cavs team maximizes LeBron's skillset........

Uh, their offense would be bottom 5 in the NBA through 82 games with this roster.

Do you guys just make this **** up to validate your warped opinions of LeBron, or are you serious?

The incremental climb in defense (btw, EVERY defense gets better in the finals, they play harder, and the Cavs defense with Love/Irving the last 30 games of the year or so was elite), is nowhere near the loss in offense the Cavs are going through.

nycericanguy
06-12-2015, 10:24 AM
none. The Warriors are so far and away superior to the Cavs roster, it's a joke it took them this long to wake up. Even up 2-1, I felt the Cavs had about a 5% chance at winning this series.

I wouldnt go that far... two days off will be huge for the CAVS... All it takes is one great LBJ game and GSW would be facing elimination in CLE... and you never know when JR can go off...

Hawkeye15
06-12-2015, 10:29 AM
I wouldnt go that far... two days off will be huge for the CAVS... All it takes is one great LBJ game and GSW would be facing elimination in CLE... and you never know when JR can go off...

The Warriors have so much firepower, I can't see Cleveland winning.

And you just alluded to J.R. Smith being a finals hero. J.R. Smith......that should tell you what you need to know. When one team is bringing Iggy/Lee off the bench, and the other is banking on contributions from 2 cast offs from a historically bad Knicks team, guess which one is in trouble...

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 10:31 AM
Yes its great how Cavs offense completely fails when LeBron is off the floor. Definitely gives him the best shot to win this series. Well said, I agree 100%.

Nobody has made the Warriors look this bad all season long. Let's just ignore the other side of the ball. Swapping two guys playing elite defense for two defensive scrubs would make no difference on that end right? Clevelands best and only shot is to make this an ugly, ugly, series. Look how GSW handled Houston, it would be no different against a Cavs team with Love and Irving playing 35-40 minutes. They could use someone to run the bench unit, but Irving and Love wouldn't do that - they would be starting - they would be sending much superior defenders to the bench - and their defense take a huge hit.

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 10:34 AM
I love how people say the current Cavs team maximizes LeBron's skillset........

Uh, their offense would be bottom 5 in the NBA through 82 games with this roster.

Do you guys just make this **** up to validate your warped opinions of LeBron, or are you serious?

The incremental climb in defense (btw, EVERY defense gets better in the finals, they play harder, and the Cavs defense with Love/Irving the last 30 games of the year or so was elite), is nowhere near the loss in offense the Cavs are going through.

Everybody's defense gets better playing a historically talented offensive team like the Dubs? Finals or not, thats a joke of a statement. They would wipe the floor with the Cavs in a finesse match - just like they did in an uptempo match vs the Rockets. Everything Cleveland is doing at an elite level on the defensive side of the ball and boards goes out the window. Playing better defense late season in the East doesn't mean you would play this type of great defense against the freakin' Warriors in a 7 game series.

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 10:37 AM
I don't agree that this lineup maximizes LeBron's talents. But I think its the only way to beat the 2015 Golden State Warriors in a 7 game series. You aren't beating those guys at their own game, and that's essentially what a Love-Irving Cavs team would have to do. It wouldn't even be close.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2015, 10:42 AM
I don't agree that this lineup maximizes LeBron's talents. But I think its the only way to beat the 2015 Golden State Warriors in a 7 game series. You aren't beating those guys at their own game, and that's essentially what a Love-Irving Cavs team would have to do. It wouldn't even be close.

but you are beating them with a historically bad offense?

Not buying it at all.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2015, 10:42 AM
Everybody's defense gets better playing a historically talented offensive team like the Dubs? Finals or not, thats a joke of a statement. They would wipe the floor with the Cavs in a finesse match - just like they did in an uptempo match vs the Rockets. Everything Cleveland is doing at an elite level on the defensive side of the ball and boards goes out the window. Playing better defense late season in the East doesn't mean you would play this type of great defense against the freakin' Warriors in a 7 game series.

did they stop playing teams from the west when their defense shot up the rankings the last 1/3rd of the season?

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 10:44 AM
but you are beating them with a historically bad offense?

Not buying it at all.

Moreso than a great offense with medicore defense, yes. They need to step thier offense up but they can't do it at the expense of their defense or it's a wrap.

ewing
06-12-2015, 10:48 AM
I love how people say the current Cavs team maximizes LeBron's skillset........

Uh, their offense would be bottom 5 in the NBA through 82 games with this roster.

Do you guys just make this **** up to validate your warped opinions of LeBron, or are you serious?

The incremental climb in defense (btw, EVERY defense gets better in the finals, they play harder, and the Cavs defense with Love/Irving the last 30 games of the year or so was elite), is nowhere near the loss in offense the Cavs are going through.



a ball control style maximizes his impact despite hurting is efficiency. His ability to impact games despite the overall talent disparity in this series speaks to this. Of course they would be better if they could maximize Bron and have better players on the floor.

nycericanguy
06-12-2015, 10:51 AM
The Warriors have so much firepower, I can't see Cleveland winning.

And you just alluded to J.R. Smith being a finals hero. J.R. Smith......that should tell you what you need to know. When one team is bringing Iggy/Lee off the bench, and the other is banking on contributions from 2 cast offs from a historically bad Knicks team, guess which one is in trouble...

lol no not at all, JR can and probably will suck for 6 of 7 games, but one big game from him can turn things around.

How can you not see CLE winning when they've already won twice despite ATROCIOUS shooting from LBJ, Shump, JR & Delly? and they could have easily won 3 times, heck Shump's prayer was inches away from going in.

Listen the Warriors def have the advantage now, but CLE has a decent shot here. Lebron is going to come out like a man possessed on Sunday.

I dont like the way CLE played last night though, they fed into Kerr's strategy... Mozzy scoring 28 is great and all but he can't be the focus of your offense.

And SHump & JR have been so trash man... reminds me why Phil gave those two guys away... they tease you with a few good games then they look like they don't belong on an NBA court for the next month.

Bostonjorge
06-12-2015, 11:01 AM
I think this series really shows the depth of GS. They lost with their small ball lineup and so they switched to starting Lee and Iggy, two former All-Stars who are still very, very good.

What other team has that luxury? To be able to put in 2 players of Lee and Iggy's caliber in the starting lineup based off matchups? GS is so unbelievably loaded as a roster it's hilarious. Not only those 2, but after that they have Livingston and Speights as their 8th and 9th guys.

Cavs have that luxury but don't use guys like Marion, miller or Perkins.

5ass
06-12-2015, 11:23 AM
Cavs have that luxury but don't use guys like Marion, miller or Perkins.

Yes clearly they're on the same level as Lee, Iggy, Livingston and Speights. Lmao those guys would be starters on the cavs. Miller is 35, Marion is 37, Perkins is horrible.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-12-2015, 11:27 AM
I think this series really shows the depth of GS. They lost with their small ball lineup and so they switched to starting Lee and Iggy, two former All-Stars who are still very, very good.

What other team has that luxury? To be able to put in 2 players of Lee and Iggy's caliber in the starting lineup based off matchups? GS is so unbelievably loaded as a roster it's hilarious. Not only those 2, but after that they have Livingston and Speights as their 8th and 9th guys.

I think Lee should play more than his 15 minutes he did not start any game in this series. Former all stars (Kiki, Rolando, Doc, Westphal, etc) are usually former for a reason. Years ago my Knicks had plenty of former all stars but when push came to shove you could see why they were former. I think GS has a good mix of solid guys but compared to many championship teams their roster pales.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-12-2015, 11:32 AM
Yes clearly they're on the same level as Lee, Iggy, Livingston and Speights. Lmao those guys would be starters on the cavs. Miller is 35, Marion is 37, Perkins is horrible.


You would start Dlee over Thompson? You would start Speights over Moz? If the Cavs did that they might not have won a game. Thompson and Moz have played very well for the Cavs.

Bostonjorge
06-12-2015, 12:08 PM
Yes clearly they're on the same level as Lee, Iggy, Livingston and Speights. Lmao those guys would be starters on the cavs. Miller is 35, Marion is 37, Perkins is horrible.

All three played for playoff teams last year and contributed more than Livingston and speights. Now they have James. James can get the production out of them from 11 months ago. I mean who gets the credit for shumps, smith and moz production?

bucketss
06-12-2015, 12:25 PM
cavs went 4-27 from three. won't happen again.

kdspurman
06-12-2015, 01:22 PM
cavs went 4-27 from three. won't happen again.

it might not, but even if they hit 5-6 more they would have lost still.

i dont know what they can do to adjust though, and what those guys have left. thats a lot of travelling and theyre playing really hard, and undermanned.

D-Leethal
06-12-2015, 01:37 PM
Are those who are saying the Cavs need Love/Irving also saying it would have been a Cavs sweep or a 3-1 lead with those guys?

SLY WILLIAMS
06-12-2015, 01:46 PM
it might not, but even if they hit 5-6 more they would have lost still.

i dont know what they can do to adjust though, and what those guys have left. thats a lot of travelling and theyre playing really hard, and undermanned.

Until garbage time last night the announcers pointed out that both teams were mostly going 7 men deep. So the Cavs players really should not be dramatically more winded than the Warriors.

Curry-41min
Iggy-39min
Klay-39min
Green-32min
Barnes-33min
Livingston-24min
Dlee-15min

Lebron-40min
Tristan-38min
Moz-33min
Shumpart-39min
Delly-33min
JR-27min
James Jones-17min

L8kers4life
06-12-2015, 02:08 PM
I have given LeBron plenty of credit for this series and I even picked Cavs in 6, but I must say, I think it's hilarious that LeBron is shooting 38% through 4 games and the efficiency clan, will not acknowledge how Piss poor his shooting has been. You guys on here constantly berate Kobe for shooting 6-24 in a closeout game, yet shooting 38% for 4 games in the finals is completely justified for LeBron, pretty ironic. His supporting cast has been pretty good considering all the injuries, I mean Mozgov is averaging 17 and 8 in 32 minutes on 55% shooting with 1 block a game, Thompson is averaging 14 rebounds and 1 block in the finals, yet the only person who is getting any credit is LeBron, very ironic. The double standard on the is site is evident, quite with the bias, LeBron shooting 38% on an average of 32 shots as well as 3.25 turnovers, 70% from the line and 33% from 3 will be a huge factor if they lose. I get the he has to put up shots, but this inefficiency is going beyond what AI had to do, and I would love to see you guys show me a series in which Kobe averaged 32 shots on 38% shooting, if that is not chucking not sure what is.

This will be fun, can't wait to see how bad I get ripped for this post or how every Lebron fan will completely justify this because he has had good rebounding and assist numbers, news flash people, this is the highest usage any player has ever had in the finals, he touches the ball every single play.

Hangin n Wangin
06-12-2015, 02:33 PM
I have given LeBron plenty of credit for this series and I even picked Cavs in 6, but I must say, I think it's hilarious that LeBron is shooting 38% through 4 games and the efficiency clan, will not acknowledge how Piss poor his shooting has been. You guys on here constantly berate Kobe for shooting 6-24 in a closeout game, yet shooting 38% for 4 games in the finals is completely justified for LeBron, pretty ironic. His supporting cast has been pretty good considering all the injuries, I mean Mozgov is averaging 17 and 8 in 32 minutes on 55% shooting with 1 block a game, Thompson is averaging 14 rebounds and 1 block in the finals, yet the only person who is getting any credit is LeBron, very ironic. The double standard on the is site is evident, quite with the bias, LeBron shooting 38% on an average of 32 shots as well as 3.25 turnovers, 70% from the line and 33% from 3 will be a huge factor if they lose. I get the he has to put up shots, but this inefficiency is going beyond what AI had to do, and I would love to see you guys show me a series in which Kobe averaged 32 shots on 38% shooting, if that is not chucking not sure what is.

This will be fun, can't wait to see how bad I get ripped for this post or how every Lebron fan will completely justify this because he has had good rebounding and assist numbers, news flash people, this is the highest usage any player has ever had in the finals, he touches the ball every single play.

Did you see that small thing Lebron showed on TV last night? That's what everyone on this site munches on for dinner every night. It's pathetic.

bucketss
06-12-2015, 02:36 PM
Until garbage time last night the announcers pointed out that both teams were mostly going 7 men deep. So the Cavs players really should not be dramatically more winded than the Warriors.

Curry-41min
Iggy-39min
Klay-39min
Green-32min
Barnes-33min
Livingston-24min
Dlee-15min

Lebron-40min
Tristan-38min
Moz-33min
Shumpart-39min
Delly-33min
JR-27min
James Jones-17min

i think fatigue hurts cavs more due to the talent difference. curry being fatigued/cramping he still can play like an all star. not so much for delly.

kdspurman
06-12-2015, 02:44 PM
Until garbage time last night the announcers pointed out that both teams were mostly going 7 men deep. So the Cavs players really should not be dramatically more winded than the Warriors.

Curry-41min
Iggy-39min
Klay-39min
Green-32min
Barnes-33min
Livingston-24min
Dlee-15min

Lebron-40min
Tristan-38min
Moz-33min
Shumpart-39min
Delly-33min
JR-27min
James Jones-17min

Ah, didn't catch that.

Mainly Lebron though, they have to wear him down. He looked fatigued, and from all his miles the last 5 years + everything he's doing now, they gotta push the pace. I think playing faster will work in GS favor, and not so much this Cavs roster.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-12-2015, 02:54 PM
Ah, didn't catch that.

Mainly Lebron though, they have to wear him down. He looked fatigued, and from all his miles the last 5 years + everything he's doing now, they gotta push the pace. I think playing faster will work in GS favor, and not so much this Cavs roster.

That makes sense. I agree the more that GS can open up the game the better. I think the Cavs work much harder on defense than GS. I think GS was trying to win mostly with skill in the first 3 games and it was only last game that they tried to match the Cavs effort.

Bostonjorge
06-12-2015, 02:57 PM
I have given LeBron plenty of credit for this series and I even picked Cavs in 6, but I must say, I think it's hilarious that LeBron is shooting 38% through 4 games and the efficiency clan, will not acknowledge how Piss poor his shooting has been. You guys on here constantly berate Kobe for shooting 6-24 in a closeout game, yet shooting 38% for 4 games in the finals is completely justified for LeBron, pretty ironic. His supporting cast has been pretty good considering all the injuries, I mean Mozgov is averaging 17 and 8 in 32 minutes on 55% shooting with 1 block a game, Thompson is averaging 14 rebounds and 1 block in the finals, yet the only person who is getting any credit is LeBron, very ironic. The double standard on the is site is evident, quite with the bias, LeBron shooting 38% on an average of 32 shots as well as 3.25 turnovers, 70% from the line and 33% from 3 will be a huge factor if they lose. I get the he has to put up shots, but this inefficiency is going beyond what AI had to do, and I would love to see you guys show me a series in which Kobe averaged 32 shots on 38% shooting, if that is not chucking not sure what is.

This will be fun, can't wait to see how bad I get ripped for this post or how every Lebron fan will completely justify this because he has had good rebounding and assist numbers, news flash people, this is the highest usage any player has ever had in the finals, he touches the ball every single play.

Ouch

jason
06-12-2015, 03:08 PM
Curry and Klay look like scrubs out there - I mean seriously who wins Finals MVP if the Dubs win this series? Iggy?

Curry isn't playing great but far from a scrub. lol Actually still played good last game.

papipapsmanny
06-12-2015, 03:15 PM
I mean Iverson took a non team to the finals as well, and even won a game against the Lakers. A team that would crush the Warriors.

And he got them through a pretty good Toronto team, and a really good Bucks team along the way, but again Iverson was awfully inefficient in doing so.

mngopher35
06-12-2015, 04:40 PM
I have given LeBron plenty of credit for this series and I even picked Cavs in 6, but I must say, I think it's hilarious that LeBron is shooting 38% through 4 games and the efficiency clan, will not acknowledge how Piss poor his shooting has been. You guys on here constantly berate Kobe for shooting 6-24 in a closeout game, yet shooting 38% for 4 games in the finals is completely justified for LeBron, pretty ironic.

We have been through this already and you stopped arguing once I provided some info. Why bring it up again when it's already been shown how different these performances have been? Point is that Kobe had a bad game 7 and it isn't comparable to Lebron this series (although last night was much closer than the first few games, the entire series hasn't been). Feel free to respond to that post if you disagree but the real irony here is you bringing up Kobe again with all the complaining you normally do about that type of stuff.


His supporting cast has been pretty good considering all the injuries, I mean Mozgov is averaging 17 and 8 in 32 minutes on 55% shooting with 1 block a game, Thompson is averaging 14 rebounds and 1 block in the finals, yet the only person who is getting any credit is LeBron, very ironic. The double standard on the is site is evident, quite with the bias, LeBron shooting 38% on an average of 32 shots as well as 3.25 turnovers, 70% from the line and 33% from 3 will be a huge factor if they lose. I get the he has to put up shots, but this inefficiency is going beyond what AI had to do, and I would love to see you guys show me a series in which Kobe averaged 32 shots on 38% shooting, if that is not chucking not sure what is.

The only player left on his team that has a higher ORTG than Lebron this series is Mozgov and a ton of his efficiency comes from Lebron's passes (only 2 of his fgs were unassisted this series). I don't know why you want to criticize Lebron so much for being inefficient yet give credit to the guys who have been playing even less efficient and have been given easier shots (jones/shump/JR/Delly all have under 90 ortg while Lebron is at 103). I agree they have been pretty good and better than expected (defensively especially) but then you also have to give credit to the guy playing far superior to them. While Lebron isn't shooting very efficiently it is still solid compared to his teammates and with all the creating he is doing as well it is clearly more efficient for this team to put the ball in his hands than others. It should definitely be acknowledged that he is not shooting efficiently (unlike your claim I think many people have), but that doesn't make it a bad performance when you consider everything (overall efficiency, play making, lack of support, rebounding, defense).

Also Lebron isn't the only one getting credit as many have said this cast is playing better than they should. Mozgov, delly and TT in particular get and deserve credit for what they have done. There is a middle ground though and you just seem very focused on the few extremes. Lebron is having an inefficient series shooting the ball but overall his play has still been impressive due to the circumstances and other factors (teammates, volume, passing/rebounding etc). It isn't like it is just one or the other type of thing, he can be having a poor shooting series but still be playing pretty good overall. Kobe was not doing all of that in the game 7 you keep mentioning. He was having a worse shooting night (than Lebron and the other 4 top lakers), had more turnovers than assists, and didn't have to carry the same load due to talent.


This will be fun, can't wait to see how bad I get ripped for this post or how every Lebron fan will completely justify this because he has had good rebounding and assist numbers, news flash people, this is the highest usage any player has ever had in the finals, he touches the ball every single play.

The only thing I think you really should get ripped for is running from a conversation only to bring it up again later (with no response or added info, more as a lebron/kobe troll tactic), that is pretty weak. Lebron had his worst game of the series last night and has shot poorly overall I think most can agree on that. It's all the other conclusions/comparisons you try to make from it that are off IMO.

Can I ask who you think they should be giving the ball to instead of Lebron? This is why people understand his usage is so high, they don't have other players to create.

bucketss
06-12-2015, 04:44 PM
series tied at 2 and people acting like its done.

Bruno
06-12-2015, 05:43 PM
what do we have to say about Mozgovs finals performance? 16.8, 8.3, 1.3b, .619 TS%, with an average game score of 13.4. In 2008 Pau Gasol put up 14.5, 10, .3b, .539 TS%, average game score of 11.4 though first four games of the finals when the Lakers played the Celtics.

I'd say Mosgov has been pretty incredible considering his reputation relative to his statistical impact. in three of the four games he's broken his playoff record in total points scored. he's having a huge impact, Thompson as well.

Through the first four games Thompson is averaging 6.5, 13.8, on a TS% of .456 with an average game score of 8.9. In 2008 Lamar averaged 11.8, 8.3, on a TS% of .511, with an average game score of 8.5I

Advanced game score, TS% and counting stats are telling us that Mozgov/Thompson have been every bit as impactful as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were in their first finals matchup against Boston in 2008 through the first four games of the series.

What we are watching between a LeBron, Mozgov and Thompson is the most similar dynamic we've seen to what Goldsberry refers to as "The Kobe Assist", the Laker dynamic that was successful at the end of the last Laker run.
http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

Though four games of the finals LBJ has a TS% of .474! This doesn't mean he's not imposing his will on the game, it just means he's doing so at a low level of 'scoring efficiency'. For comparisons sake Kobe only had a TS% of .513% over the first four games on the finals in 2008 against Boston. Does LBJ deserve criticism for his poor efficiency or is it just a reflection of taking what the defense gives you? What are his teammates doing with his misses?

Through the first four games of the 2015 finals, LBJs towers are combining to have a 31.3% TRB%. Meaning that the two of them are combining to pull down 31.3% of all available rebounds while they are on the court. For comparisons sake, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined to have a 29.2% TRB% through the first four games of the 2008 finals, their first finals appearance as a unit.

How important are these rebounding figures? Obviously the more LeBron misses, the more opportunities for Thompson and Mozgov to get put backs or kick out for second opportunities. Just as with Kobe against Boston with Pau and Lamar. whats better for T. Thompson? Getting assisted by LBJ or putting back one of LBJs misses? Whats more efficient?

watching LBJ put up the TS% that he is this series is having me rethink how I think about efficiency, series to series, match up to match up. Remember Kobes game seven in 2010? LBJ put up an identical TS% last night in Cleveland. .379 for LeBron last night, .376 for Kobe that night in 2010.

Bruno
06-12-2015, 06:17 PM
I have given LeBron plenty of credit for this series and I even picked Cavs in 6, but I must say, I think it's hilarious that LeBron is shooting 38% through 4 games and the efficiency clan, will not acknowledge how Piss poor his shooting has been. You guys on here constantly berate Kobe for shooting 6-24 in a closeout game, yet shooting 38% for 4 games in the finals is completely justified for LeBron, pretty ironic. His supporting cast has been pretty good considering all the injuries, I mean Mozgov is averaging 17 and 8 in 32 minutes on 55% shooting with 1 block a game, Thompson is averaging 14 rebounds and 1 block in the finals, yet the only person who is getting any credit is LeBron, very ironic. The double standard on the is site is evident, quite with the bias, LeBron shooting 38% on an average of 32 shots as well as 3.25 turnovers, 70% from the line and 33% from 3 will be a huge factor if they lose. I get the he has to put up shots, but this inefficiency is going beyond what AI had to do, and I would love to see you guys show me a series in which Kobe averaged 32 shots on 38% shooting, if that is not chucking not sure what is.

This will be fun, can't wait to see how bad I get ripped for this post or how every Lebron fan will completely justify this because he has had good rebounding and assist numbers, news flash people, this is the highest usage any player has ever had in the finals, he touches the ball every single play.

rather than bash them for turning a blind eye regarding LBJs scoring efficiency, I took it as an opportunity to question everything Ive grown to believe about efficiency. personally, I think LBJ has been amazing. last night was his first game back to earth and he still almost put up a triple double, regardless of his 2010 game seven Kobe TS%.

i think we need to consider role, offensive game plan and the defensive game plan being implemented before we take any efficiency numbers as holy text.

Jamiecballer
06-12-2015, 06:26 PM
what do we have to say about Mozgovs finals performance? 16.8, 8.3, 1.3b, .619 TS%, with an average game score of 13.4. In 2008 Pau Gasol put up 14.5, 10, .3b, .539 TS%, average game score of 11.4 though first four games of the finals when the Lakers played the Celtics.

I'd say Mosgov has been pretty incredible considering his reputation relative to his statistical impact. in three of the four games he's broken his playoff record in total points scored. he's having a huge impact, Thompson as well.

Through the first four games Thompson is averaging 6.5, 13.8, on a TS% of .456 with an average game score of 8.9. In 2008 Lamar averaged 11.8, 8.3, on a TS% of .511, with an average game score of 8.5I

Advanced game score, TS% and counting stats are telling us that Mozgov/Thompson have been every bit as impactful as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were in their first finals matchup against Boston in 2008 through the first four games of the series.

What we are watching between a LeBron, Mozgov and Thompson is the most similar dynamic we've seen to what Goldsberry refers to as "The Kobe Assist", the Laker dynamic that was successful at the end of the last Laker run.
http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

Though four games of the finals LBJ has a TS% of .474! This doesn't mean he's not imposing his will on the game, it just means he's doing so at a low level of 'scoring efficiency'. For comparisons sake Kobe only had a TS% of .513% over the first four games on the finals in 2008 against Boston. Does LBJ deserve criticism for his poor efficiency or is it just a reflection of taking what the defense gives you? What are his teammates doing with his misses?

Through the first four games of the 2015 finals, LBJs towers are combining to have a 31.3% TRB%. Meaning that the two of them are combining to pull down 31.3% of all available rebounds while they are on the court. For comparisons sake, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined to have a 29.2% TRB% through the first four games of the 2008 finals, their first finals appearance as a unit.

How important are these rebounding figures? Obviously the more LeBron misses, the more opportunities for Thompson and Mozgov to get put backs or kick out for second opportunities. Just as with Kobe against Boston with Pau and Lamar. whats better for T. Thompson? Getting assisted by LBJ or putting back one of LBJs misses? Whats more efficient?

watching LBJ put up the TS% that he is this series is having me rethink how I think about efficiency, series to series, match up to match up. Remember Kobes game seven in 2010? LBJ put up an identical TS% last night in Cleveland. .379 for LeBron last night, .376 for Kobe that night in 2010.
Mosgov is having a nice series for sure. Soft hands, great awareness in space. Both him and Thompson are going to get contracts based on this run that far exceeds their worth though. Hope that team isn't us.

Bruno
06-12-2015, 06:33 PM
Mosgov is having a nice series for sure. Soft hands, great awareness in space. Both him and Thompson are going to get contracts based on this run that far exceeds their worth though. Hope that team isn't us.

I agree.

i mean look at Bogut. Guy would be very valuable to a lot of teams, has been extremely valuable all season up until this moment in this time with this match up, didn't even play 4 minutes last night. In certain series with certain match ups and dynamics, players value appear to be far greater or far less than they are over the course of an eight month season.

Remember back in 2000 when Austin Croshere had a quality performance against the Lakers in the finals? Dude got a seven year $51M contract. performances in the finals absolutely impact summer signings and Thompson is going to get paid, big time.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-12-2015, 06:40 PM
I'm surprised so many people were sleeping on Mozgov. I know GS is not shocked by Moz because Tim had a 23 point 29 rebound game against the Warriors last season when Tim played for the Nuggets. The Cavs knew what they were getting in Moz. That is why they were willing to trade so much to get him.

Bruno
06-12-2015, 06:46 PM
I'm surprised so many people were sleeping on Mozgov. I know GS is not shocked by Moz because Tim had a 23 point 29 rebound game against the Warriors last season when Tim played for the Nuggets. The Cavs knew what they were getting in Moz. That is why they were willing to trade so much to get him.

I agree. What would this series look like if Phil was more patient in trading Chandler and he was a Cav instead? Mozgov is kind of looking like the right addition because of his high level of play.

L8kers4life
06-12-2015, 07:04 PM
We have been through this already and you stopped arguing once I provided some info. Why bring it up again when it's already been shown how different these performances have been? Point is that Kobe had a bad game 7 and it isn't comparable to Lebron this series (although last night was much closer than the first few games, the entire series hasn't been). Feel free to respond to that post if you disagree but the real irony here is you bringing up Kobe again with all the complaining you normally do about that type of stuff.



The only player left on his team that has a higher ORTG than Lebron this series is Mozgov and a ton of his efficiency comes from Lebron's passes (only 2 of his fgs were unassisted this series). I don't know why you want to criticize Lebron so much for being inefficient yet give credit to the guys who have been playing even less efficient and have been given easier shots (jones/shump/JR/Delly all have under 90 ortg while Lebron is at 103). I agree they have been pretty good and better than expected (defensively especially) but then you also have to give credit to the guy playing far superior to them. While Lebron isn't shooting very efficiently it is still solid compared to his teammates and with all the creating he is doing as well it is clearly more efficient for this team to put the ball in his hands than others. It should definitely be acknowledged that he is not shooting efficiently (unlike your claim I think many people have), but that doesn't make it a bad performance when you consider everything (overall efficiency, play making, lack of support, rebounding, defense).

Also Lebron isn't the only one getting credit as many have said this cast is playing better than they should. Mozgov, delly and TT in particular get and deserve credit for what they have done. There is a middle ground though and you just seem very focused on the few extremes. Lebron is having an inefficient series shooting the ball but overall his play has still been impressive due to the circumstances and other factors (teammates, volume, passing/rebounding etc). It isn't like it is just one or the other type of thing, he can be having a poor shooting series but still be playing pretty good overall. Kobe was not doing all of that in the game 7 you keep mentioning. He was having a worse shooting night (than Lebron and the other 4 top lakers), had more turnovers than assists, and didn't have to carry the same load due to talent.



The only thing I think you really should get ripped for is running from a conversation only to bring it up again later (with no response or added info, more as a lebron/kobe troll tactic), that is pretty weak. Lebron had his worst game of the series last night and has shot poorly overall I think most can agree on that. It's all the other conclusions/comparisons you try to make from it that are off IMO.

Can I ask who you think they should be giving the ball to instead of Lebron? This is why people understand his usage is so high, they don't have other players to create.

You sound like a fan, I actually played incollege and the d league so your points sound like that of a fan. I never mentioned any of the guys you mentioned. I spoke of Mosgov and TT, and you say who should they be going to offensively, Mosgov, that's who. Look I get your point, but comparing one game in the finals where Kobe shot horribly still doesn't change the fact that LeBron has shot 38% on 32 shots.

You can make excuses all want, LeBron, by your guys definition is chucking and it is only getting worse.

Comparing Kobe's one game to a entire series shooting 38% is pretty laughable. Nobody's trolling, and I'm definitely not speaking to you, you are a neutral poster, but for 6 years or so we have to listen to people talk about kobe chucking, yet kobe has never chucked 32 shots on average in a series, not even when he had a starting lineup of Smush, Luke Walton, Kobe, Kwame and Brian Cook. All of which did not create shots and Kobe had a high usage. This is chucking to a point the league has never seen. Sorry, if these guys are gonna criticize kobes shot selection and chucking even though it led to championships, than you better believe, when LeBron is chucking at a historic level, he is open to criticism.

And the biggest difference between Kobe and Lebron in my opinion, is Kobe knows how to use his big man, and you better believe if Mosgov was playing the way he has and he was on the Lakers, Kobe would make sure he was in the game in the 4th, especially if he has been the teams most efficient scorer and best defensive presence on the inside. It should be LeBron, Mozgov 1-2 punch, just like Kobe and Pau, but that won't work with Lebron cuz guess what, LeBron need spacing.

L8kers4life
06-12-2015, 07:12 PM
what do we have to say about Mozgovs finals performance? 16.8, 8.3, 1.3b, .619 TS%, with an average game score of 13.4. In 2008 Pau Gasol put up 14.5, 10, .3b, .539 TS%, average game score of 11.4 though first four games of the finals when the Lakers played the Celtics.

I'd say Mosgov has been pretty incredible considering his reputation relative to his statistical impact. in three of the four games he's broken his playoff record in total points scored. he's having a huge impact, Thompson as well.

Through the first four games Thompson is averaging 6.5, 13.8, on a TS% of .456 with an average game score of 8.9. In 2008 Lamar averaged 11.8, 8.3, on a TS% of .511, with an average game score of 8.5I

Advanced game score, TS% and counting stats are telling us that Mozgov/Thompson have been every bit as impactful as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were in their first finals matchup against Boston in 2008 through the first four games of the series.

What we are watching between a LeBron, Mozgov and Thompson is the most similar dynamic we've seen to what Goldsberry refers to as "The Kobe Assist", the Laker dynamic that was successful at the end of the last Laker run.
http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

Though four games of the finals LBJ has a TS% of .474! This doesn't mean he's not imposing his will on the game, it just means he's doing so at a low level of 'scoring efficiency'. For comparisons sake Kobe only had a TS% of .513% over the first four games on the finals in 2008 against Boston. Does LBJ deserve criticism for his poor efficiency or is it just a reflection of taking what the defense gives you? What are his teammates doing with his misses?

Through the first four games of the 2015 finals, LBJs towers are combining to have a 31.3% TRB%. Meaning that the two of them are combining to pull down 31.3% of all available rebounds while they are on the court. For comparisons sake, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined to have a 29.2% TRB% through the first four games of the 2008 finals, their first finals appearance as a unit.

How important are these rebounding figures? Obviously the more LeBron misses, the more opportunities for Thompson and Mozgov to get put backs or kick out for second opportunities. Just as with Kobe against Boston with Pau and Lamar. whats better for T. Thompson? Getting assisted by LBJ or putting back one of LBJs misses? Whats more efficient?

watching LBJ put up the TS% that he is this series is having me rethink how I think about efficiency, series to series, match up to match up. Remember Kobes game seven in 2010? LBJ put up an identical TS% last night in Cleveland. .379 for LeBron last night, .376 for Kobe that night in 2010.

Freaking awesome post Bruno, big props. Drop the mic...

WadeKobe
06-12-2015, 07:41 PM
A finals lost is a finals lost....

I don't remember people making excuses for jordan when scottie hurt his back during the 98 finals....you know why? Bulls won. Stop making excuses for lebron. A loss is a loss.

This is the height of lazy thinking.

A loss is not a loss. That is, all losses are not created equal. All wins are not created equal. All teams are not equal and not all opponents are equal.

Saying they are is equivalent to saying "I don't want to think and use my brain at all...."

ewing
06-12-2015, 07:45 PM
That makes sense. I agree the more that GS can open up the game the better. I think the Cavs work much harder on defense than GS. I think GS was trying to win mostly with skill in the first 3 games and it was only last game that they tried to match the Cavs effort.



thats true. i also GS was trying be too perfect. Last night they took it to the hole ore and made easy passes. For a lot of the series they were hesitant on offensive. Thats where Lee really help in game 3. He goes to the hole or make a quick pass and not a Magic Johnson pass every time.

ewing
06-12-2015, 07:49 PM
I mean Iverson took a non team to the finals as well, and even won a game against the Lakers. A team that would crush the Warriors.

And he got them through a pretty good Toronto team, and a really good Bucks team along the way, but again Iverson was awfully inefficient in doing so.


Cause he had too. Just like Bron this series. If you hold the ball to their are 8 seconds on the shot clock and then go one on one with everyone staring at you, you are going to take hard shots. You are also going to have a set Defense, be able to muscle the offensive glass, have more energy on D and for loose balls. if the Cavs try to play a more open sytle Bron would get better looks and be more efficient. Golden State would also run them out of the gym. take from and old school knicks fan, you aren't going to shoot great playing this style.

bucketss
06-12-2015, 07:52 PM
This is the height of lazy thinking.

A loss is not a loss. That is, all losses are not created equal. All wins are not created equal. All teams are not equal and not all opponents are equal.

Saying they are is equivalent to saying "I don't want to think and use my brain at all...."

a loss is a loss. than a win should be a win right?, nope lebron still gets discredited for winning in miami because apparently team was too stacked.

effen5
06-12-2015, 08:03 PM
a loss is a loss. than a win should be a win right?, nope lebron still gets discredited for winning in miami because apparently team was too stacked.
Boom.

A loss is a loss and a win is a win. It's really that simple.

mngopher35
06-12-2015, 08:05 PM
You sound like a fan, I actually played incollege and the d league so your points sound like that of a fan. I never mentioned any of the guys you mentioned.

Lol internet big shot right here. Whether you played in the d-league or not it doesn't change the points you have been trying to make, why don't we stick with the actual argument.


I spoke of Mosgov and TT, and you say who should they be going to offensively, Mosgov, that's who. Look I get your point, but comparing one game in the finals where Kobe shot horribly still doesn't change the fact that LeBron has shot 38% on 32 shots.

13/22 of Mozgovs buckets have been assisted by lebron so far this series and he has scored 2 times without an assist. Going to mozgov won't work unless someone is creating for him which is exactly what Lebron has been doing. Mozgov definitely deserves credit for finishing and drawing fouls but just dumping it to him is not his game.

Also you are the one who has been making this comparison so laugh at your own ridiculous takes. I have been saying all along Lebrons play (at least through the first 3 games) that they shouldn't be mentioned together.



You can make excuses all want, LeBron, by your guys definition is chucking and it is only getting worse.

Everyone has a different definition but I do agree at times he has been chucking. For the most part though people understand the context and when he is the only one who can create he needs to be the one with the ball, you seem to be one of the few who can't grasp that.

To me chucking is throwing up ill-advised shots to the point where it is hurting your team. Lebron right now has a better ortg this series than his teams average so he is not doing this to a large extent. He is shooting more than one would like at with this poor efficiency but as stated his team has no other creators.


Comparing Kobe's one game to a entire series shooting 38% is pretty laughable. Nobody's trolling, and I'm definitely not speaking to you, you are a neutral poster, but for 6 years or so we have to listen to people talk about kobe chucking, yet kobe has never chucked 32 shots on average in a series, not even when he had a starting lineup of Smush, Luke Walton, Kobe, Kwame and Brian Cook. All of which did not create shots and Kobe had a high usage. This is chucking to a point the league has never seen. Sorry, if these guys are gonna criticize kobes shot selection and chucking even though it led to championships, than you better believe, when LeBron is chucking at a historic level, he is open to criticism.

You were the one to make that comparison in the first place...

You keep call it chucking but Lebron also is averaging over 8apg (how many times has kobe done this?) so he is creating for everyone not just shooting every time. Once again I have never said he isn't open for criticism but you have just made some very dumb comparisons (apparently you now agree on that part lol). You seem very incapable of looking at the entire picture and just try focus on a piece here or there to prove whatever weird conclusion you've made. Reality is that while he hasn't shot the ball well he has still had a good series overall (especially those first 3 games).


And the biggest difference between Kobe and Lebron in my opinion, is Kobe knows how to use his big man, and you better believe if Mosgov was playing the way he has and he was on the Lakers, Kobe would make sure he was in the game in the 4th, especially if he has been the teams most efficient scorer and best defensive presence on the inside. It should be LeBron, Mozgov 1-2 punch, just like Kobe and Pau, but that won't work with Lebron cuz guess what, LeBron need spacing.

If you want to blame Lebron for the coaching decisions that is on you but we have been talking about their level of play so this isn't very relevant. Also Mozgov is not Gasol, he shouldn't be relied upon to create offense for himself/others like that.

flea
06-12-2015, 08:34 PM
i think we need to consider role, offensive game plan and the defensive game plan being implemented before we take any efficiency numbers as holy text.

Yes this is crucial. Newer fans' focus on TS% and WS obscures a number of very important facets of winning basketball. I'll list 4 that I think mainstream stats don't necessarily show, but that elite teams very often feature.

First is the good post game, which is still the best source of ISO offense there is. It's not quite as valuable in the zone defense era because defenses are tougher in the paint than in years past, but if you've got a dominant inside threat you have an ace in the hole. Elite slashers may be as valuable offensively these days because of how fouls are called and how perimeter defense is, but situationally the post game is still king.

Second is the midrange game for both guards and bigs - in the P&R era this is possibly even more important to a successful offense. Defenses want to go under screens if they can, and they want to trap or hedge on the ballhandler if they can. The elite roll men in the game (think prime Duncan, prime Dirk, prime Stat, etc.) spread defenses out because of their versatility - a combination of shooting, finishing, screensetting, and awareness to do other things like pass out of a roll or post up. Peoples jaws drop at the Deandre Jordan slam and FG%, but he's really not that hard to defend even though he's got the best PG in the game feeding him. Mozgov is a way better roll man IMO and I don't care what the PPP stats say.

Third is defense - especially big men defense. Most teams have good perimeter defenders on their roster - they aren't terribly difficult to find. Only playoff caliber teams have elite big man defenders or multiple very good big man defenders, and that's not a coincidence. D-Rating and Defensive Win Shares are better than nothing I guess but they aren't to be relied upon nearly as much as offensive metrics - which themselves are quite flawed. The 3 things you want your bigs to do primarily are shut the paint down, make good decisions within your P&R scheme, and rebound. If you have a big that does all 3 well he is probably one of the most valuable players in the league.

Fourth is passing. Assists are a pretty bad way to assess passing skill. First it clearly favors ballhandlers, some of which aren't even the best passers on their team in spite of leading their team in assists. Second, as most people know, the hockey assist is often just as or more valuable as the direct assist.

As a corollary, fans tend to underrate how effective good passing big men are for an offense. And not just passing out of doubles, which every star player should know how to do well IMO, but the ability to create angles and have good timing. Bigs are often the ones in the easiest position to hit cutters and dumpoffs, but timing has to be perfect. This is also why interior passing is so difficult - it's a high-risk/high-reward pass (as opposed to the kickout, which is relatively low-risk). Elite passing big men can demoralize a defense because of how difficult it is to defend, but they are few and far between because of how turnover prone it can become if you rely on it. Part of the reason inside-out offenses have dried up in the NBA in favor of P&R is that they can be turnover prone in the zone defense era.

Much of the reason the 2014 Spurs blur that romped through the playoffs was so devastating because that team's best passers were its big men - I think we could see big men focus on this skill more as the NBA moves towards ball movement. Every year there are good college teams that do it, but the NBA is an uncreative copycat league. This season 4 or 5 of the best 8 or so teams featured good passing bigs, I'd expect that to increase. How much it will happen it's hard to say, considering many bigs just don't have the feel for it once they get to the NBA (blame the AAU).

Bruno
06-12-2015, 08:34 PM
Lol internet big shot right here. Whether you played in the d-league or not it doesn't change the points you have been trying to make, why don't we stick with the actual argument.
But you have to admit that its interesting how most guys who play at a high level tend to toss out the purity of efficiency in the face of getting it done, regardless of what it takes (the reason why I've never been more impressed with LBJ, strangely enough). we always hear old players preach context over hard stats (or thats how I choose to interpret it).


13/22 of Mozgovs buckets have been assisted by lebron so far this series and he has scored 2 times without an assist. Going to mozgov won't work unless someone is creating for him which is exactly what Lebron has been doing. Mozgov definitely deserves credit for finishing and drawing fouls but just dumping it to him is not his game.
thats revealing but I'd also like to know where the pass was coming from on his 32 FTAs, he's averaging 8 of them a game. Id like to know the ratio of fouls off the pass from LBJ, as opposed to fouls on an offensive rebound put back. but even that, does it matter? if its rebounding a LBJ miss or a dunk off a LBJ pass? i guess thats my general point.



Everyone has a different definition but I do agree at times he has been chucking. For the most part though people understand the context and when he is the only one who can create he needs to be the one with the ball, you seem to be one of the few who can't grasp that.
I think we need to accept that chucking is okay under certain builds, against certain defensive schemes/certain match ups. i think context dictates chucking, not pure FGA totals. what else is LBJ supposed to do, not shoot? he has to. his team needs it and it doesn't matter if he's shooting at TS% of .500. I mean, it might not be efficient enough to win, but the other alternative (keeping the efficiency numbers clean, shrining the USG%) will result in a route.


To me chucking is throwing up ill-advised shots to the point where it is hurting your team. Lebron right now has a better ortg this series than his teams average so he is not doing this to a large extent. He is shooting more than one would like at with this poor efficiency but as stated his team has no other creators.
I think LBJs been very good. his first three games were incredible. so long as his team is structured to collect his misses I don't think its a problem. especially when Golden State is playing the kind of defensive scheme that they are.



You keep call it chucking but Lebron also is averaging over 8apg (how many times has kobe done this?) so he is creating for everyone not just shooting every time.
Kobe averaged 7.4 assists against the Magic over five games in 2009. Eight assists per game through the first four games, five in the close out game.

Bruno
06-12-2015, 09:03 PM
Freaking awesome post Bruno, big props. Drop the mic...
:cheers: its been a fun finals to watch.


Yes this is crucial. Newer fans' focus on TS% and WS obscures a number of very important facets of winning basketball. I'll list 4 that I think mainstream stats don't necessarily show, but that elite teams very often feature.
nice, i agree. I love TS%, but context is so important.


First is the good post game, which is still the best source of ISO offense there is. It's not quite as valuable in the zone defense era because defenses are tougher in the paint than in years past, but if you've got a dominant inside threat you have an ace in the hole. Elite slashers may be as valuable offensively these days because of how fouls are called and how perimeter defense is, but situationally the post game is still king.
I kind of hate the new(ish) rules. i agree. thoughts on Okafor?


Second is the midrange game for both guards and bigs - in the P&R era this is possibly even more important to a successful offense. Defenses want to go under screens if they can, and they want to trap or hedge on the ballhandler if they can. The elite roll men in the game (think prime Duncan, prime Dirk, prime Stat, etc.) spread defenses out because of their versatility - a combination of shooting, finishing, screensetting, and awareness to do other things like pass out of a roll or post up. Peoples jaws drop at the Deandre Jordan slam and FG%, but he's really not that hard to defend even though he's got the best PG in the game feeding him. Mozgov is a way better roll man IMO and I don't care what the PPP stats say.
The efficiency people hate the mid range shot. but you can't always kill a dragon with a head shot (from 3) or a body blow (post scoring). sometimes you gotta hit that dragon with an arrow under the soft spot on the armor, under the arm. thats the exact metaphor I see when I think about the mid range shot in todays league. it is basically the only uncontested, unprotected part of the floor.

it's the shot that teams gave Steve Nash year after year with the hope he wouldn't slay them from three or turn their defense to soup by probing. of course three points are better than two, and of course a dunk is better than a 15 foot jumper. but what if the other team is putting all their effort into stacking the paint, and going over every screen at the perimeter with defenders who are big/athletic enough to switch if need be? Are those shots still more efficient than the open mid range look? Nash and Kobe made their bread in part, off realizing that. accepting a mid-range jumper thats open is the epitome of 'taking what the defense gives you'. So what do we like better, taking what the defense gives us, or forcing what we know to be more efficient on paper? can forcing the more efficient scheme result in worse efficiency, if the defense is capable of dictating? thats going to be a great debate that well watch evolve.


Third is defense - especially big men defense. Most teams have good perimeter defenders on their roster - they aren't terribly difficult to find. Only playoff caliber teams have elite big man defenders or multiple very good big man defenders, and that's not a coincidence. D-Rating and Defensive Win Shares are better than nothing I guess but they aren't to be relied upon nearly as much as offensive metrics - which themselves are quite flawed. The 3 things you want your bigs to do primarily are shut the paint down, make good decisions within your P&R scheme, and rebound. If you have a big that does all 3 well he is probably one of the most valuable players in the league.and we know Mozgov and Thompson have been quite good. if we go strictly off impact (and throw away reputation and appearance, like we do when when evaluating Wade when critiquing LBJs help in the later Miami days), they've been on a similar level that Pau and Odom were in 2008.


Fourth is passing. Assists are a pretty bad way to assess passing skill. First it clearly favors ballhandlers, some of which aren't even the best passers on their team in spite of leading their team in assists. Second, as most people know, the hockey assist is often just as or more valuable as the direct assist.
I think this is where LBJ is shining and deserves some good credit, because his bigs can't facilitate.


As a corollary, fans tend to underrate how effective good passing big men are for an offense. And not just passing out of doubles, which every star player should know how to do well IMO, but the ability to create angles and have good timing. Bigs are often the ones in the easiest position to hit cutters and dumpoffs, but timing has to be perfect. This is also why interior passing is so difficult - it's a high-risk/high-reward pass (as opposed to the kickout, which is relatively low-risk). Elite passing big men can demoralize a defense because of how difficult it is to defend, but they are few and far between because of how turnover prone it can become if you rely on it. Part of the reason inside-out offenses have dried up in the NBA in favor of P&R is that they can be turnover prone in the zone defense era. Agreed. Can you imagine Pau and Lamar in the pre zone era? One thing thats not up for debate is that LBJs bigs can't facilitate. The Kobe/Pau Lakers at least had the structuring to let other players facilitate, something the Cavs can't really afford. hell 2015 Pau would be nice on these injured Cavs.


Much of the reason the 2014 Spurs blur that romped through the playoffs was so devastating because that team's best passers were its big men - I think we could see big men focus on this skill more as the NBA moves towards ball movement. Every year there are good college teams that do it, but the NBA is an uncreative copycat league. This season 4 or 5 of the best 8 or so teams featured good passing bigs, I'd expect that to increase. How much it will happen it's hard to say, considering many bigs just don't have the feel for it once they get to the NBA (blame the AAU).
I blame them as well. These players won't be intentionally developed for a while but guys who played as guards growing up who had major growth spurts will always be excellent passers as bigs. those bigs are special.

mngopher35
06-12-2015, 09:05 PM
But you have to admit that its interesting how most guys who play at a high level tend to toss out the purity of efficiency in the face of getting it done, regardless of what it takes (the reason why I've never been more impressed with LBJ, strangely enough). we always hear old players preach context over hard stats (or thats how I choose to interpret it).

He is actually focusing only on shooting efficiency though so he is going directly against that logic by ignoring literally everything else. Saying you used to play in the d-league doesn't automatically make me assume you know more about bball than another random poster (especially considering the recent posts). If your best defense of your opinion is that "well I used to play" it might just mean the argument is lacking (his is in this case).

I do think that the context part does matter though and gets lost with many people who either focus too much on a stat or even a team result etc.


thats revealing but I'd also like to know where the pass was coming from on his 32 FTAs, he's averaging 8 of them a game. Id like to know the ratio of fouls off the pass from LBJ, as opposed to fouls on an offensive rebound put back.

As would I, I couldn't find the info but if you know where to look I'd love to know. I didn't want to include one side or the other without knowing for sure but some of the fouls have just been off switching mismatches and others have been from assists from what I have seen and at least once he created it himself the other night. It's hard to say for sure how many of those were 1v1 type plays for Mozgov or created by Lebron or others.

Overall I think it is a pretty fair assessment that he isn't much of a creator though, right? This doesn't take away from what he has done but when giving him a ton of credit it should be noted that over half his fgs were from Lebron and he wasn't creating the others either. Still a great player but you wouldn't want to start dropping it into him to create over leaving it with Lebron.




I think we need to accept that chucking is okay under certain builds, against certain defensive schemes/certain match ups. i think context dictates chucking, not pure FGA totals. what else is LBJ supposed to do, not shoot? he has to. his team needs it and it doesn't matter if he's shooting at TS% of .500. I mean, it might not be efficient enough to win, but the other alternative (keeping the efficiency numbers clean, shrining the USG%) will result in a route.

I think some on here over use the term so in some cases it's fine to accept. This is where context is really needed though because sometimes shooting a ton may be needed and others it might not. When it gets to the point where you are hurting your team then I think the term should be used and we aren't at that point in this series.

The surrounding cast not being able to create for themselves is one example where a lot of shots might not just be chucking. As you pointed out that is kind of the case in this series.



I think LBJs been very good. his first three games were incredible. so long as his team is structured to collect his misses I don't think its a problem. especially when Golden State is playing the kind of defensive scheme that they are.

Agreed, his first three games were great. Last game they actually change it up a bit and sent some doubles and left the cavs open to shoot. If they do the same I still think Lebron should keep attacking then making the passes and trust open looks to fall. If they leave him 1v1 then he definitely needs to keep attacking for the score.



Kobe averaged 7.4 assists against the Magic over five games in 2009. Eight assists per game through the first four games, five in the close out game.

Haha I really was just trying to point out that Lebron has been creating a lot for this team even with his shooting so it isn't like he is purely chucking.

More-Than-Most
06-12-2015, 09:15 PM
This is the height of lazy thinking.

A loss is not a loss. That is, all losses are not created equal. All wins are not created equal. All teams are not equal and not all opponents are equal.

Saying they are is equivalent to saying "I don't want to think and use my brain at all...."

I legit missed you... Not even kidding./

More-Than-Most
06-12-2015, 09:17 PM
rather than bash them for turning a blind eye regarding LBJs scoring efficiency, I took it as an opportunity to question everything Ive grown to believe about efficiency. personally, I think LBJ has been amazing. last night was his first game back to earth and he still almost put up a triple double, regardless of his 2010 game seven Kobe TS%.

i think we need to consider role, offensive game plan and the defensive game plan being implemented before we take any efficiency numbers as holy text.

Your posts in here are pretty amazing.

More-Than-Most
06-12-2015, 09:21 PM
Are those who are saying the Cavs need Love/Irving also saying it would have been a Cavs sweep or a 3-1 lead with those guys?

Yea its dumb and lazy thinking... Just because the cavs have overachieved so far or played better so far does not mean all a sudden they would destroy the warriors because of Kyrie and love.... Its all about matchups/schemes and so on and they could have just as easily be swept with love/irving than have swept the warriors...The only thing that might have helped with those 2 is depth and Lebron not being dead in game 4.... He is wiped and every single time he leaves the game the warriors cut in to or expand their lead and it forces him to come back in much earlier... The cavs cant win this series because of that and its been my stance all along... James is the best player in the world and the most gifted athlete ever but he does not mesh well with this little depth and this team he is going against because of his size... Kobe/Jordan can play this style much better and shoot all day long game in and game out because of their size and work ethic and be ready to go in game 7 like its game 1.... James does not have that same luxury.

This is not a knock on Jerrell and them who Like James playing this way but its not a good way for him to play unless he is playing about 30 minutes a game because of his size.... They needed that game 1 badly and needed to not let those games go into overtime... The cavs need to get up big next game and rest James most of the 4th or win or lose the series is over.

I think James is the GOAT or top 2 when its all said and done nomatter what happens in this finals.... I think he is better than Kobe/Jordan in terms of skill set and what he can do... I think Jordan and Kobe though have much much better work ethics and much more passion for the game and more passion to prove people that they are the best ever and because of that they can play 48 minutes a game day in and day out with little fatigue.

jerellh528
06-12-2015, 10:12 PM
what do we have to say about Mozgovs finals performance? 16.8, 8.3, 1.3b, .619 TS%, with an average game score of 13.4. In 2008 Pau Gasol put up 14.5, 10, .3b, .539 TS%, average game score of 11.4 though first four games of the finals when the Lakers played the Celtics.

I'd say Mosgov has been pretty incredible considering his reputation relative to his statistical impact. in three of the four games he's broken his playoff record in total points scored. he's having a huge impact, Thompson as well.

Through the first four games Thompson is averaging 6.5, 13.8, on a TS% of .456 with an average game score of 8.9. In 2008 Lamar averaged 11.8, 8.3, on a TS% of .511, with an average game score of 8.5I

Advanced game score, TS% and counting stats are telling us that Mozgov/Thompson have been every bit as impactful as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were in their first finals matchup against Boston in 2008 through the first four games of the series.

What we are watching between a LeBron, Mozgov and Thompson is the most similar dynamic we've seen to what Goldsberry refers to as "The Kobe Assist", the Laker dynamic that was successful at the end of the last Laker run.
http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

Though four games of the finals LBJ has a TS% of .474! This doesn't mean he's not imposing his will on the game, it just means he's doing so at a low level of 'scoring efficiency'. For comparisons sake Kobe only had a TS% of .513% over the first four games on the finals in 2008 against Boston. Does LBJ deserve criticism for his poor efficiency or is it just a reflection of taking what the defense gives you? What are his teammates doing with his misses?

Through the first four games of the 2015 finals, LBJs towers are combining to have a 31.3% TRB%. Meaning that the two of them are combining to pull down 31.3% of all available rebounds while they are on the court. For comparisons sake, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined to have a 29.2% TRB% through the first four games of the 2008 finals, their first finals appearance as a unit.

How important are these rebounding figures? Obviously the more LeBron misses, the more opportunities for Thompson and Mozgov to get put backs or kick out for second opportunities. Just as with Kobe against Boston with Pau and Lamar. whats better for T. Thompson? Getting assisted by LBJ or putting back one of LBJs misses? Whats more efficient?

watching LBJ put up the TS% that he is this series is having me rethink how I think about efficiency, series to series, match up to match up. Remember Kobes game seven in 2010? LBJ put up an identical TS% last night in Cleveland. .379 for LeBron last night, .376 for Kobe that night in 2010.

Good post as always Bruno.

Tony_Starks
06-12-2015, 10:32 PM
Honestly I think he has the right cast to give him the best shot for this particular series. If Kyrie and Love were playing, IMO GSW would run them out of the gym the same way they ran Houston out. If Love was playing heavy minutes GSW would have a better time getting away with their small ball lineup but instead Cleveland is pounding them and making them pay for it. Cleveland doesn't want to try and beat GSW 120-115 because GSW will get the stops they need in those games - they are better equipped to outscore you and out D you. The roster Cleveland has now is making the Dubs look mediocre on offense and that's their best shot to win. Mozzy is also playing at an all star level right now so that should be noted.

Curry and Klay look like scrubs out there - I mean seriously who wins Finals MVP if the Dubs win this series? Iggy?


Cleveland is fully capable of taking the Dubs 7 games. People are so anxious to give yet another pass because the Warriors roster is "so far superior" are ignoring simple basketball 101. With a team with little to no inside presence that relies primarily on outside shooting you are always in the game, particularly if you have great defenders.

Its like Steve Kerr told his team against the Rockets: "we're down 15, we can make that up in like 3 minutes against these guys!" Reason? Did they really expect Harden, Terry, Ariza, and the Brewers of the world to drop 3s all night? Of course not. Same goes for GS.

Cleveland has already shown that when Lebron is in beast mode they can completely throw the Warriors off their game but if he's going to shoot 20 times for 20 points while tuning it over, and bricking free throws then yes its a wrap for them and the finger points to him for the L.

bucketss
06-13-2015, 12:00 AM
Cleveland is fully capable of taking the Dubs 7 games. People are so anxious to give yet another pass because the Warriors roster is "so far superior" are ignoring simple basketball 101. With a team with little to no inside presence that relies primarily on outside shooting you are always in the game, particularly if you have great defenders.

Its like Steve Kerr told his team against the Rockets: "we're down 15, we can make that up in like 3 minutes against these guys!" Reason? Did they really expect Harden, Terry, Ariza, and the Brewers of the world to drop 3s all night? Of course not. Same goes for GS.

Cleveland has already shown that when Lebron is in beast mode they can completely throw the Warriors off their game but if he's going to shoot 20 times for 20 points while tuning it over, and bricking free throws then yes its a wrap for them and the finger points to him for the L.

so pretty much bron has to drop 40 pts + double digits in rebounds and assists. while playing like 47 mins. just for the cavs to have a chance to win in a close game. just goes to show you how good the supporting cast. not saying they're scrubs but still.

Chronz
06-13-2015, 12:28 PM
You guys have actually convinced urselves that Bron is better off without depth and offensive support? My gawd

Bostonjorge
06-13-2015, 12:43 PM
what do we have to say about Mozgovs finals performance? 16.8, 8.3, 1.3b, .619 TS%, with an average game score of 13.4. In 2008 Pau Gasol put up 14.5, 10, .3b, .539 TS%, average game score of 11.4 though first four games of the finals when the Lakers played the Celtics.

I'd say Mosgov has been pretty incredible considering his reputation relative to his statistical impact. in three of the four games he's broken his playoff record in total points scored. he's having a huge impact, Thompson as well.

Through the first four games Thompson is averaging 6.5, 13.8, on a TS% of .456 with an average game score of 8.9. In 2008 Lamar averaged 11.8, 8.3, on a TS% of .511, with an average game score of 8.5I

Advanced game score, TS% and counting stats are telling us that Mozgov/Thompson have been every bit as impactful as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom were in their first finals matchup against Boston in 2008 through the first four games of the series.

What we are watching between a LeBron, Mozgov and Thompson is the most similar dynamic we've seen to what Goldsberry refers to as "The Kobe Assist", the Laker dynamic that was successful at the end of the last Laker run.
http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

Though four games of the finals LBJ has a TS% of .474! This doesn't mean he's not imposing his will on the game, it just means he's doing so at a low level of 'scoring efficiency'. For comparisons sake Kobe only had a TS% of .513% over the first four games on the finals in 2008 against Boston. Does LBJ deserve criticism for his poor efficiency or is it just a reflection of taking what the defense gives you? What are his teammates doing with his misses?

Through the first four games of the 2015 finals, LBJs towers are combining to have a 31.3% TRB%. Meaning that the two of them are combining to pull down 31.3% of all available rebounds while they are on the court. For comparisons sake, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined to have a 29.2% TRB% through the first four games of the 2008 finals, their first finals appearance as a unit.

How important are these rebounding figures? Obviously the more LeBron misses, the more opportunities for Thompson and Mozgov to get put backs or kick out for second opportunities. Just as with Kobe against Boston with Pau and Lamar. whats better for T. Thompson? Getting assisted by LBJ or putting back one of LBJs misses? Whats more efficient?

watching LBJ put up the TS% that he is this series is having me rethink how I think about efficiency, series to series, match up to match up. Remember Kobes game seven in 2010? LBJ put up an identical TS% last night in Cleveland. .379 for LeBron last night, .376 for Kobe that night in 2010.

You sir are on fire.