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View Full Version : If LBJ keeps up this level of play but loses, does he win finals MVP?



JasonJohnHorn
06-05-2015, 03:01 PM
I was one of the folks that was all in for Curry winning MVP this season, but the post season has shown me just how central LBJ was to the Cavs winning. This team went from the lottery to the NBA finals, and with the loss of Love and the nagging injuries holding back Irving, LBJ has will ths team to the finals in the same way that Jordan used to will the Bulls to victory. Outside of a couple of games where Buttler slowed him down, James has been a beast.


Last night's game one showed much the same. Though LBJ's percentage was a little low compared to Curry's, and he did take a lot of shots (38 shots and 44 points), his performances was MVP level play.

If Irving is out, James keeps up this level of play, and the Warriors rely on team play where guys like Thompson, and Curry take turns taking the lead, and role players like Green and Barnes pop up for great nights, is it likely that LBJ might come away with the Finals MVP, but without the championship?


Jerry West was the last guy to do this.

jerellh528
06-05-2015, 03:07 PM
Lol no. He's been really disappointing this postseason and his game yesterday wasn't spectacular either. Just the type of game great players are expected to have in the finals. He was obviously gassed by the end, I doubt he can sustain his aggressiveness. Vey premature to ask this anyways, maybe if the series was 1-3 and lebron was averaging 45 this could be a question worth asking.

Hangin n Wangin
06-05-2015, 03:19 PM
No. But maybe he should keep shooting 38 times a game and try.

koreancabbage
06-05-2015, 03:20 PM
if the series goes 7 games and he's averages 45 points with Curry and Thompson averaging the same points combined - unlikely candidate to win it but i'd give him a small % to win it when the Warriors win the championship.

koreancabbage
06-05-2015, 03:22 PM
like the OP said, a person has won it while losing, so its not out of the possible scenarios.

I just don't see it happening bc the scenario would be so outrageous.

Vinylman
06-05-2015, 03:27 PM
nah... unless it goes 7 which i doubt happens

Hawkeye15
06-05-2015, 03:29 PM
No. But maybe he should keep shooting 38 times a game and try.

is that you Kobe?

But no, he won't. His production would have to be just ridiculous, and even then, I can't see any possibility of it happening.

kdspurman
06-05-2015, 03:29 PM
I remember people thought this last year too.. But I highly doubt it. Especially if GS wins @ home, how would that look.. haha

flea
06-05-2015, 03:34 PM
I remember people thought this last year too.. But I highly doubt it. Especially if GS wins @ home, how would that look.. haha

Yeah those people were completely delusional, too. It's possible to be the best player in a series where your team loses if the series is close, or possibly even competitive. Last year's series was not close or competitive, his team's offense was better with him on the bench, and he shat the bed defensively (the narrative among serious fans was whether that was the end of Lebron's days as a plus defender).

It's possible he could do it this year. But again, the series would need to be close and he would need to play very well - or it would have to be a competitive series and he plays out of his mind. Suffering a sweep or something even worse, like last year's beatdown, would not cut it.

Dade County
06-05-2015, 03:36 PM
That would be cool...

I would like for it to happen.

Raidaz4Life
06-05-2015, 03:36 PM
It would take a very special set of circumstances for this to happen and there is no way this is one of them. Arguably the best player in the league and regular season MVP is playing for GS.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-05-2015, 03:36 PM
They'll never give out the FMVP to a losing team, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

It should go to the top performer for the finals, not top performer on the winning team in the finals.

tredigs
06-05-2015, 03:37 PM
Lol is this a joke? Takes 38 shots on sub 50% from the field? Scoreless in OT (besides the gimme at the end)? This was far from an All-Time performance. It was just an extremely high usage game that the Warriors gameplanned him for by neglecting to double. It worked out essentially exactly as I'm sure Kerr expected.

Also, it's unlikely this goes 7. You won't get Finals MVP on the losing team losing in 5 just because you take a ton of shots.

You'd also need the other team to have no particularly strong performances all series. Curry had a very solid game already.

koreancabbage
06-05-2015, 03:39 PM
They'll never give out the FMVP to a losing team, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

It should go to the top performer for the finals, not top performer on the winning team in the finals.

it has happened.. why and how did Jerry West win it? what was scenario?

Hangin n Wangin
06-05-2015, 03:44 PM
is that you Kobe?

But no, he won't. His production would have to be just ridiculous, and even then, I can't see any possibility of it happening.

You caught me. It's me, Kobe Bryant. Is that you Lebron?

I'm just saying, people criticize me non stop for chucking. Looks like you deserve it too.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-05-2015, 03:49 PM
it has happened.. why and how did Jerry West win it? what was scenario?

Yea, I meant to say going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1969_finals.html

koreancabbage
06-05-2015, 03:51 PM
Yea, I meant to say going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1969_finals.html

averaging 37 points? damn. LOL

like i said, IF Lebron averages 45 points for a series or something redic like that, small chance Lebron wins it.

Bruno
06-05-2015, 05:58 PM
it has to go seven for it to be a conversation. Lbj would need to be more efficient too. he's under .500% TS for the playoffs and was under .52 yesterday. for the 2015 playoffs his efficiency is in iverson territory.

mngopher35
06-05-2015, 06:10 PM
It would take a lot of things going his way (series has to last at least 6, curry doesn't play great, lebron continues to put up huge numbers). It's not gonna happen.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-05-2015, 06:11 PM
Lmao, no. Curry is the finals MVP. Book it

PowerHouse
06-05-2015, 06:51 PM
For Lebron to win FMVP the first thing that must happen is the Cavs would have to push the Warriors to a game 7 like when West's Lakers did it in 1969. Is that going to happen without Love or Irving? Highly unlikely.

LA_Raiders
06-05-2015, 11:38 PM
LeBron will pad the stats now that he knows he can't win... Book it

kubernetes
06-06-2015, 11:15 AM
it has happened.. why and how did Jerry West win it? what was scenario?

That was a long time ago. In the modern social media age the NBA will not do that unless we're talking about a performance for the ages, 7 games carried on his back, and at least one where he scores 60. Even then, it'd be controversial as all hell, especially if Lebron does it. Lebron should hope it doesn't happen, because the haterdom will grow 10-fold.

Yanks All Day
06-07-2015, 07:34 PM
I don't think a player from the losing team should ever be Finals MVP. He's still the best player in the world, but he shouldn't get FMVP if he doesn't win the series.

Ty Fast
06-07-2015, 11:35 PM
If he keeps playing like this but they lose could he win MVP?

More-Than-Most
06-07-2015, 11:41 PM
He is so far and without a doubt. His shooting could be better but nobody has been better or has brought more value esp when its him being double a triple teamed and not getting hammered while the refs turn their head to it.

jerellh528
06-07-2015, 11:43 PM
There's literally this exact thread topic, 10 threads down on this very 1st page.

koreancabbage
06-07-2015, 11:44 PM
if Lebron James is averging 41 points the rest of the way, which is insane - he has a chance if the series goes 7 games

kingkenny01
06-07-2015, 11:52 PM
The second game he shot 33% which isn't very good, but if he averages 40 and close to triple double that is pretty ridiculous, it be interesting especially if it goes at least 6 and Curry or Thompson doesn't have a great series

kingkenny01
06-07-2015, 11:53 PM
I doubt that will happen and even if it did, I don't think he'd win it

naps
06-08-2015, 12:01 AM
If he can make it a 6 or 7 game series and if Curry/Klay doesn't have a consistent good series then YES. LeBron has been sensational. I never thought Cavs could the warriors in Oakland, let alone without Kyrie and Love both. Insane.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-08-2015, 12:13 AM
Even if he deserves it, a player on the losing team will never get it in this current age.

FlashBolt
06-08-2015, 12:18 AM
No, that will never happen again and it shouldn't. A loser getting Finals MVP is pathetic. Should they give Delly Hustler of the Year as well?

Tony_Starks
06-08-2015, 12:41 AM
Some of you guys are missing some really really great basketball with these fantasy make believe shenanigans and endless legacy pontificating....

HoopsDrive
06-08-2015, 12:48 AM
Difficult but it could be done. He'd have to continue putting up monster numbers, playing great, willing his team to underdog victories, extending the series to 6-7 games until the Ws prevail AND the Cavs would have to collectively stop Curry and Thompson from having a standout series so neither of them can take the FMVP away.

I'm not against awarding a best player award to a losing team as long as it makes sense. If LeBron averages a triple double (even if on terrible shooting numbers) and the Cavs get 2-3 wins in this impossible scenario where Kyrie and Love are out... sure, why not.

FlashBolt
06-08-2015, 12:56 AM
Difficult but it could be done. He'd have to continue putting up monster numbers, playing great, willing his team to underdog victories, extending the series to 6-7 games until the Ws prevail AND the Cavs would have to collectively stop Curry and Thompson from having a standout series so neither of them can take the FMVP away.

I'm not against awarding a best player award to a losing team as long as it makes sense. If LeBron averages a triple double (even if on terrible shooting numbers) and the Cavs get 2-3 wins in this impossible scenario where Kyrie and Love are out... sure, why not.

While I do understand your argument, awarding the losing player of the losing team the Finals MVP destroys the value of the award. If GSW wins and Curry/Thompson play horribly, I don't know who would get the FMVP so you might be right, this might go towards Bron.

jerellh528
06-08-2015, 01:01 AM
Lmao, no. Curry is the finals MVP. Book it

Klay will put up a decent fight for it

HoopsDrive
06-08-2015, 01:25 AM
While I do understand your argument, awarding the losing player of the losing team the Finals MVP destroys the value of the award. If GSW wins and Curry/Thompson play horribly, I don't know who would get the FMVP so you might be right, this might go towards Bron.

Yeah it's one of those tricky scenarios in sports. Tbh it would take the perfect storm for it to happen but it's not completely unheard of. If the Ws beat the Cavs through a complete team effort and if you have LeBron going off every game to extend the series, that would be hard to overlook.

HoopsDrive
06-08-2015, 01:36 AM
There are 2 threads about the same topic here :laugh2:

To all those saying they shouldn't do it or it's not gonna happen... keep in mind it has already happened. And it's not like it's against the rules or anything. Just ask yourself what is the definition of the FMVP? It doesn't mean it's the best performing player from the winning team. It's just the best performing player in the series and said player often comes from the winning team. This opens up possibilities for losing players to win it as long as there isn't an arguably similarly performing player on the winning side.

Of course it is highly unlikely... 6-7 games are needed, LeBron needs to continue posting huge numbers, and none on the Ws can have a big series (ie: complete team effort win). In this unlikely scenario where LeBron posts averages of 38-10-10-1-1, Cavs take Ws to 7 before falling, and none on the Ws have a good series (particularly Steph and Klay) then who else would you give the FMVP to? Unlikely... but not impossible.

Nick O
06-08-2015, 02:03 AM
even if he averaged 80 30 and 30 and they lost.. im just not in favour of a losing player getting it but thats just me

Nick O
06-08-2015, 02:05 AM
Yea, I meant to say going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1969_finals.html

Jeeze Wilt and Bill must of shut eachother down. what a fun series that must have been to watch

tredigs
06-08-2015, 02:15 AM
Jeeze Wilt and Bill must of shut eachother down. what a fun series that must have been to watch

Bill was a player/coach at that point and retired after the series. Wilt was a little older himself and took a backseat scoring wise because it was Jerry and Elgin's team that he had just joined.

You should check out the 4th quarter of game 7 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw

Nick O
06-08-2015, 02:46 AM
Bill was a player/coach at that point and retired after the series. Wilt was a little older himself and took a backseat scoring wise because it was Jerry and Elgin's team that he had just joined.

You should check out the 4th quarter of game 7 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw

thanks! those rebound numbers are still unbelievable

GoferKing_
06-08-2015, 02:56 AM
Now this is the LeBron everyone was waiting for (G2). Lets see if he will play this way next games. :)

ewing
06-08-2015, 04:43 AM
but he is so inefficient and his usage is through of the charts. surely any NBA player could do this.

Munkeysuit
06-08-2015, 04:59 AM
but he is so inefficient and his usage is through of the charts. Surely any nba player could do this.

lmao!

vics
06-08-2015, 05:40 AM
but he is so inefficient and his usage is through of the charts. surely any NBA player could do this.

Which player could do this and win?

IBleedPurple
06-08-2015, 05:43 AM
Lmao, no. Curry is the finals MVP. Book itGood call, and well proven yesterday.

RLundi
06-08-2015, 07:50 AM
Good call, and well proven yesterday.

Winner.

JasonJohnHorn
06-08-2015, 08:15 AM
but he is so inefficient and his usage is through of the charts. surely any NBA player could do this.

He had a slightly above average shooting night in game one compared to the rest of the league, and below average for himself, but he was also the only focal point of GSW's defense... so....I mean, they aren't exactly double-teaming Mosgov or Delladova.


In game two, his shooting percentage was much worse, but given that Kyrie and Love are not BOTH out, there is nobody else they have to pay particular attention too. So LBJ's having a rough go of it. That said, scoring isn't the only thing you can do on the court and he did get a triple-double, so while his 39 points isn't that impressive in context, his point total still exceeded his shot total.

He drew fouls like mad. Got a triple-double, had 11 assists with only 3 turnovers, and played well defensively.

And in context, the league MVP shot even WORSE than LBJ: 5/23? And he doesn't have the excuse that he's the only guy worth double-teaming on their roster. They got Klay and several long-range bombers as well. And Curry had SIX turnovers to only FIVE assists. Double the turnovers LBJ had, and less than half the assists. OUCH!!!

JasonJohnHorn
06-08-2015, 08:20 AM
Lmao, no. Curry is the finals MVP. Book it

Curry. Game w: 19 points (5/23), 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 6 turnovers. 4 personal fouls.

Klay has a better shot at finals MVP right now than Curry does.

MonroeFAN
06-08-2015, 08:22 AM
Curry looked like a chucker with a low IQ. He made like 3 good plays the entire game. I'll admit, I haven't seen a lot of him (being on the east coast). Is this the game plan? That's not going to work in a 7 game series against an EC team.

koreancabbage
06-08-2015, 08:56 AM
Curry. Game w: 19 points (5/23), 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 6 turnovers. 4 personal fouls.

Klay has a better shot at finals MVP right now than Curry does.

if GS won the series today, Klay Thomson would probably be the Finals MVP

PhillyFaninLA
06-08-2015, 09:00 AM
He almost had a triple double in game 1. He had a triple double in game 2. If this goes 7 games and he averages a triple double in the finals its hard to not give it to him, but I don't believe you give an MVP to a player on a team that misses the playoffs, so I guess I'd have to say you don't give it to the losing team. But it would be conversation worthy.

ewing
06-08-2015, 10:35 AM
Mozgov has been more efficient

bklynny67
06-08-2015, 10:42 AM
Some of you just look at numbers and think he had a good game last night. 39 pts on 11-35 shooting is terrible. Not to mention constantly missing big shots. They're lucky they aren't down 2-0. And James winning mvp if they lose is a joke. I can only assume you're kidding with that question.

bklynny67
06-08-2015, 10:44 AM
Yea, I meant to say going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1969_finals.html

averaging 37 points? damn. LOL

like i said, IF Lebron averages 45 points for a series or something redic like that, small chance Lebron wins it.
Averaging 40 pts on 40 shots is incredibly unimpressive. He will not and should not win it if he keeps this up.

PhillyFaninLA
06-08-2015, 10:46 AM
Some of you just look at numbers and think he had a good game last night. 39 pts on 11-35 shooting is terrible. Not to mention constantly missing big shots. They're lucky they aren't down 2-0. And James winning mvp if they lose is a joke. I can only assume you're kidding with that question.

And Golden State is lucky to not be down 0 - 2....see both games went to OT......also you are ignoring the rebounds and assist and low turn overs....also putting up 35 shots in the NBA finals is impressive, see your opponent is very good in that situation

bklynny67
06-08-2015, 10:49 AM
Some of you just look at numbers and think he had a good game last night. 39 pts on 11-35 shooting is terrible. Not to mention constantly missing big shots. They're lucky they aren't down 2-0. And James winning mvp if they lose is a joke. I can only assume you're kidding with that question.

And Golden State is lucky to not be down 0 - 2....see both games went to OT......also you are ignoring the rebounds and assist and low turn overs....also putting up 35 shots in the NBA finals is impressive, see your opponent is very good in that situation

Simply putting up 35 shots is impressive? How so? Anyone could do that if they keep shooting and missing like he did last night . They won cuz of Mozgov and Della, and Curry having a terrible game, not James barely shooting 30%

koreancabbage
06-08-2015, 10:58 AM
Averaging 40 pts on 40 shots is incredibly unimpressive. He will not and should not win it if he keeps this up.

you can look at it any way you want.

1) You want to criticize James for not taking all the shots and passing it off to teammates for better shots, go ahead.

2) If you want to criticize James for taking too many shots because the team's two other all star players are gone, go ahead.

but if you want to criticize James for both on any given night in the Finals, go **** yourself. they only have 7 players in that rotation now and none of them can be counted on to score. You wanna give the other 20 shots to JR Smith? Shumpert? Delly? Mozgov? Jones? heaven forbid Thompson? hell no.

Mozgov and Delly's success and efficiencies are the by-product of having James on the court.

PhillyFaninLA
06-08-2015, 11:07 AM
Simply putting up 35 shots is impressive? How so? Anyone could do that if they keep shooting and missing like he did last night . They won cuz of Mozgov and Della, and Curry having a terrible game, not James barely shooting 30%

No, very few people could get 35 shots off in the finals. To be able to take 35 shots means you are good enough to be able to stay on the floor and get opportunity to take the shots, you need to be good enough to be allowed by your coach to miss a lot, also despite what you may think, few people could get off 35 shots in any NBA game without a ton of airballs or blocks. Even the worst blocking players are going to block the majority of people on this planet.

Not sure why I keep feeding you like this, I should know better

bklynny67
06-08-2015, 11:52 AM
Simply putting up 35 shots is impressive? How so? Anyone could do that if they keep shooting and missing like he did last night . They won cuz of Mozgov and Della, and Curry having a terrible game, not James barely shooting 30%

No, very few people could get 35 shots off in the finals. To be able to take 35 shots means you are good enough to be able to stay on the floor and get opportunity to take the shots, you need to be good enough to be allowed by your coach to miss a lot, also despite what you may think, few people could get off 35 shots in any NBA game without a ton of airballs or blocks. Even the worst blocking players are going to block the majority of people on this planet.

Not sure why I keep feeding you like this, I should know better

I'm sold. James should win mvp if they lose because it's difficult to shoot 35 times in a finals game. Even if he needs 40 shots to score 40 pts, and shoots 30%, fact is its so difficult to shoot that much, that he should win it.

Or.... You guys should stop blowin Lebron James.

Jewelz0376
06-08-2015, 12:01 PM
I have noticed some of the same people who criticized Westbrook for his poor shooting and high usage during his triple double run are praising lebron in this thread.

I think what Lebron is doing is impressive (I thought Westbrook was as well)but it's funny to me seeing some of the comments in this thread...

flea
06-08-2015, 12:05 PM
I'm sold. James should win mvp if they lose because it's difficult to shoot 35 times in a finals game. Even if he needs 40 shots to score 40 pts, and shoots 30%, fact is its so difficult to shoot that much, that he should win it.

Or.... You guys should stop blowin Lebron James.

Just laugh at them. For years we heard Lebronophiles ripping Kobe's FG%, completely ignoring the fact that he's a jumpshooter with a great mid-range and post game. Now that Lebron's decline has sapped his slashing ability we're hearing that it's still great offense to shoot 42% with a terrible 3 pt % because....Lebron does it.

All his decline is showing is that he was never an all-time scorer (probably the worst individual scorer among the top 15 or so players of all time) but that he is such a versatile player that he can still be effective in spite of that fact, the fact that he's not much to write home about defensively anymore, and the fact that his PG skills are fairly limited when compared to true PGs.

flea
06-08-2015, 12:14 PM
I will qualify what I said about Lebron as a scorer by noting that he's definitely a better one than Bill Russell - just in case any of the LeBoners want to pick through my post with a fine-tooth comb.

Hawkize31
06-08-2015, 01:05 PM
I will qualify what I said about Lebron as a scorer by noting that he's definitely a better one than Bill Russell - just in case any of the LeBoners want to pick through my post with a fine-tooth comb.

No point in picking apart troll posts.


probably the worst individual scorer among the top 15 or so players of all time

Hate on, brother.

Hangin n Wangin
06-08-2015, 01:05 PM
11-35. Chucker.

flea
06-08-2015, 02:02 PM
No point in picking apart troll posts.



Hate on, brother.

The truth is hating and trolling? Geez you guys are more insecure than Kobephiles.

Top 15 all-time NBA players in some order are: Magic, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, West, Shaq, Lebron, Big O, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson. If you disagree with a few that's fine the point is not to have a discussion. The point is Lebron is not a better pure scorer than any of them save for Russell.

I could entertain an argument for Wilt since he frequently seemed to get shut down against good defenders in big spots, and maybe Robinson for the same reasons, but I still don't think Lebron is a better scorer than either of them. Every one of those men had post moves that put Lebron to shame, and all the guards/wings are better shooters than him (minus maybe Magic).

jerellh528
06-08-2015, 02:07 PM
Just laugh at them. For years we heard Lebronophiles ripping Kobe's FG%, completely ignoring the fact that he's a jumpshooter with a great mid-range and post game. Now that Lebron's decline has sapped his slashing ability we're hearing that it's still great offense to shoot 42% with a terrible 3 pt % because....Lebron does it.

All his decline is showing is that he was never an all-time scorer (probably the worst individual scorer among the top 15 or so players of all time) but that he is such a versatile player that he can still be effective in spite of that fact, the fact that he's not much to write home about defensively anymore, and the fact that his PG skills are fairly limited when compared to true PGs.

Agree solid post. Nice to see level headed evaluation when it comes to James.

Alan Shore
06-08-2015, 02:38 PM
Nope, the losing team winning FMVP does not make for good TV.

IKnowHoops
06-08-2015, 02:47 PM
The truth is hating and trolling? Geez you guys are more insecure than Kobephiles.

Top 15 all-time NBA players in some order are: Magic, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, West, Shaq, Lebron, Big O, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson. If you disagree with a few that's fine the point is not to have a discussion. The point is Lebron is not a better pure scorer than any of them save for Russell.

I could entertain an argument for Wilt since he frequently seemed to get shut down against good defenders in big spots, and maybe Robinson for the same reasons, but I still don't think Lebron is a better scorer than either of them. Every one of those men had post moves that put Lebron to shame, and all the guards/wings are better shooters than him (minus maybe Magic).

I disagree with this. Lebron has put up more points on better efficiency than all these guys. So no he arguable a top 3 scorer on this list. I'd put him over Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, West, Barkley, Malone, Big O, Kobe for sure. The Guys I would put ahead of him would be Jordan, Shaq, Wilt, and Shaq and Wilt were less diverse as scorers than Bron, but still physically more dominant. He was more efficient than all those guys scoring. He will also be better than all these guys at the same age too. Bron has shot pretty bad in these playoffs, but for his career, he shoots very well, better than all these guys

ManRam
06-08-2015, 02:58 PM
The truth is hating and trolling? Geez you guys are more insecure than Kobephiles.

Top 15 all-time NBA players in some order are: Magic, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, West, Shaq, Lebron, Big O, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson. If you disagree with a few that's fine the point is not to have a discussion. The point is Lebron is not a better pure scorer than any of them save for Russell.

I'd like to hear you back up most of those guys (sans MJ).

I think it's hard to be certain with some of those big men. LeBron is Karl Malone's size, and can score in a billion more unique ways, for example. He also didn't have someone creating for him most of the time either. Scoring isn't his best asset, we all know that, but he's still put up some of the craziest volume vs. efficiency scoring seasons ever. If he trails most of those guys, it's by a tiny margin. The only guy you mentioned that have posted more 60%+ TS% (efficiency) on 18 FGAs (volume) seasons or more are Kareem and MJ. He isn't the skilled shooter/scorer that a Kobe is, but his mix of volume and efficiency compares fine with all those guys. He's always been more Magic than MJ in terms of style anyways.


Nope, the losing team winning FMVP does not make for good TV.

Elaborate. The Finals MVP is awarded after all the games have been played. I don't get how it impacts the "goodness" of TV. If anything, it would keep people talking about things more.

Edit: IKnowHoops beat me to most of that

flea
06-08-2015, 03:20 PM
I'd like to hear you back up most of those guys (sans MJ).

I think it's hard to be certain with some of those big men. LeBron is Karl Malone's size, and can score in a billion more unique ways, for example. He also didn't have someone creating for him most of the time either. Scoring isn't his best asset, we all know that, but he's still put up some of the craziest volume vs. efficiency scoring seasons ever. If he trails most of those guys, it's by a tiny margin. The only guy you mentioned that have posted more 60%+ TS% (efficiency) on 18 FGAs (volume) seasons or more are Kareem and MJ. He isn't the skilled shooter/scorer that a Kobe is, but his mix of volume and efficiency compares fine with all those guys. He's always been more Magic than MJ in terms of style anyways.

Yeah Lebron is a slasher in the era of star calls, so he puts up big efficiency. Same with Shaq's huge efficiency in the pre-3 second call/5 seconds back to basket era. Nobody in their right mind thinks Shaq is a better crunch-time scorer than Hakeem overall - but he was very capable of handling giant USG% throughout a game. These are great players, but I am not comparing them to Tony Allen. I am comparing them to the other greats of NBA history.

You're either a young fan who didn't see them, or way too swayed by FTA stats like TS% if you really think Lebron is a better scorer than Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, etc. I Know Hoops is the biggest Lebron fan on this site so he will disagree with me but that's just the way it is. For everyone else, watch the elites of the game on possessions where their team needs points. They aren't dribbling the ball off their foot, chucking up foot-short fadeaways, tossing baby hooks that don't even hit the rim.

Hell just last year Duncan on one leg was securing his team's victory on the low block vs. Serge Ibaka (one of the best defenders of this era). Last night Lebron was...I don't know really what he was doing. He must not have confidence in his driving game anymore. The one time he did drive it was into traffic and the Lebronophiles whined about him not getting a call. But the refs don't give touch calls at the end of games unless this is 2006 and your name is Dwyane Wade - you have to go and get points unless it's a clear foul (not to mention all the dislodging Lebron does with his off hand on the drive). I'll agree they missed that call on Lebron when Iggy/Draymond doubled him and Iggy hacked his arm - but they probably didn't call it because A) the defense was good and B) Lebron traveled in order to get a shot off.

He's a great player but you'll never convince longtime basketball fans like me with very little emotional investment in NBA players (I'm a college fan first and foremost) that a guy without anything more than an average jumpshot or post game is a better scorer than Kobe or Hakeem or Duncan. Think whatever you want that makes you enjoy the game more, but it doesn't jive with anything we're actually seeing on TV.

R. Johnson#3
06-08-2015, 03:47 PM
I don't like Lebron but if he keeps it up then he will and should win finals MVP. Yeah he shot terribly last night but lets keep in mind that he played 50 minutes. He stayed on the floor all night and forced the Warriors to adjust to him. He made some great passes that resulted in wide open looks. Pretty much every 3 ball that was made was either an assist from Lebron or an extra pass after a Lebron dish. He moved the ball very well when he needed to last night even when he didn't get the assist.

People say the Warriors didn't show up with the exception of Klay which is true but keep in mind that after the 1st half all of the Cavs basically disappeared. Lebron was amazing last night, as much as it kills me to say that.

naps
06-08-2015, 10:36 PM
The truth is hating and trolling? Geez you guys are more insecure than Kobephiles.

Top 15 all-time NBA players in some order are: Magic, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Wilt, West, Shaq, Lebron, Big O, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson. If you disagree with a few that's fine the point is not to have a discussion. The point is Lebron is not a better pure scorer than any of them save for Russell.

I could entertain an argument for Wilt since he frequently seemed to get shut down against good defenders in big spots, and maybe Robinson for the same reasons, but I still don't think Lebron is a better scorer than either of them. Every one of those men had post moves that put Lebron to shame, and all the guards/wings are better shooters than him (minus maybe Magic).


What the hell is a pure scorer? LeBron is better at putting the ball in the basket than 90% of them at brilliant efficiency--the only thing that should matter in a game which is decided by number of points scored. Who cares about being a pure scorer or not when you are capable of getting points better than almost all them you mentioned except for may be a few.

LBJackpot
06-08-2015, 11:08 PM
What the hell is a pure scorer? LeBron is better at putting the ball in the basket than 90% of them at brilliant efficiency--the only thing that should matter in a game which is decided by number of points scored. Who cares about being a pure scorer or not when you are capable of getting points better than almost all them you mentioned except for may be a few.

Pure scorer is what you say when the stats don't back up a player actually being a better scorer. Pure scorer has nothing to do with what actually matters (putting the ball in the hoop at the best rate) and has everything to do with looking pretty or hitting difficult shots.

I always crack up when people say Melo is a better pure scorer than LeBron

naps
06-09-2015, 03:16 AM
Pure scorer means jack. It's pretty simple to me. LeBron puts up a 30 point game and you won't even realize it because he does it so effortlessly and efficiently. Michael Jordan and probably Shaquille O'Neal are in the same class.

buck4493
06-09-2015, 05:44 PM
11-34, who gives a crap. people want to diss him for that??

scored 39. might want to checkout what else he did. Those 16 boards and 11 assists have an impact too.

buck4493
06-09-2015, 05:47 PM
What in the hell is USAGE?? is this just some obscure stat to take away from what a player does.

Lebron needs to continue to put the same USAGE numbers up. Whatever the hell that stupidity is

JordansBulls
06-10-2015, 01:34 AM
Remember S.A was up 2-1 in 2013 as well and Miami needed that must win in game 4 and they got it. They still should have lost that series though.

5ass
06-10-2015, 01:47 AM
Remember S.A was up 2-1 in 2013 as well and Miami needed that must win in game 4 and they got it. They still should have lost that series though.

But HCA.

naps
06-10-2015, 02:06 AM
Remember S.A was up 2-1 in 2013 as well and Miami needed that must win in game 4 and they got it. They still should have lost that series though.

JB, you talking without HCA? You talkin without HCA here??

ewing
06-10-2015, 11:22 AM
he should. he has been head and shoulders above anyone else in this series

ManRam
06-10-2015, 11:29 AM
What in the hell is USAGE?? is this just some obscure stat to take away from what a player does.

Lebron needs to continue to put the same USAGE numbers up. Whatever the hell that stupidity is

It's a pretty simple stat/concept :shrug: All it is is an estimated percentage of team plays a player is a part of while on the court. Factors in FGA, FTA, turnovers, assists and minutes verses the rest of the team's output in the same stats. There's no reason to be so outwardly opposed to it. Although, with the new SportVu stuff I'm sure we can get more accurate information of how involved a player is in a game.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2015, 11:35 AM
You caught me. It's me, Kobe Bryant. Is that you Lebron?

I'm just saying, people criticize me non stop for chucking. Looks like you deserve it too.

maybe hit an open guy and grab a rebound in the midst of your chucking, and we would leave you alone.

Hangin n Wangin
06-10-2015, 11:38 AM
maybe hit an open guy and grab a rebound in the midst of your chucking, and we would leave you alone.

I have 5 rings. So you can tell me how my *** tastes.

blams
06-10-2015, 11:51 AM
I have 5 rings. So you can tell me how my *** tastes.

Team stat. irrelevant.

if you really believe LBJ wouldn't have 5 rings with the teams kobe had- or near 5 with the team's jordan had...you're not worth talking to.

LBJ's teams have been favored 2/6 times in the finals.

Kobe's were what, 4/5 or 5/5?

MJ's were favored BY FAR every time he's played there.

Its a team sport, period. You can't penalize a guy for bring non-finals quality teams to the finals.

Hangin n Wangin
06-10-2015, 11:54 AM
Team stat. irrelevant.

if you really believe LBJ wouldn't have 5 rings with the teams kobe had- or near 5 with the team's jordan had...you're not worth talking to.

LBJ's teams have been favored 2/6 times in the finals.

Kobe's were what, 4/5 or 5/5?

MJ's were favored BY FAR every time he's played there.

Its a team sport, period. You can't penalize a guy for bring non-finals quality teams to the finals.

Very relevant.

Don't talk to me then. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

ManRam
06-10-2015, 12:03 PM
Yeah Lebron is a slasher in the era of star calls, so he puts up big efficiency. Same with Shaq's huge efficiency in the pre-3 second call/5 seconds back to basket era. Nobody in their right mind thinks Shaq is a better crunch-time scorer than Hakeem overall - but he was very capable of handling giant USG% throughout a game. These are great players, but I am not comparing them to Tony Allen. I am comparing them to the other greats of NBA history.

You're either a young fan who didn't see them, or way too swayed by FTA stats like TS% if you really think Lebron is a better scorer than Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, etc. I Know Hoops is the biggest Lebron fan on this site so he will disagree with me but that's just the way it is. For everyone else, watch the elites of the game on possessions where their team needs points. They aren't dribbling the ball off their foot, chucking up foot-short fadeaways, tossing baby hooks that don't even hit the rim.

Hell just last year Duncan on one leg was securing his team's victory on the low block vs. Serge Ibaka (one of the best defenders of this era). Last night Lebron was...I don't know really what he was doing. He must not have confidence in his driving game anymore. The one time he did drive it was into traffic and the Lebronophiles whined about him not getting a call. But the refs don't give touch calls at the end of games unless this is 2006 and your name is Dwyane Wade - you have to go and get points unless it's a clear foul (not to mention all the dislodging Lebron does with his off hand on the drive). I'll agree they missed that call on Lebron when Iggy/Draymond doubled him and Iggy hacked his arm - but they probably didn't call it because A) the defense was good and B) Lebron traveled in order to get a shot off.

He's a great player but you'll never convince longtime basketball fans like me with very little emotional investment in NBA players (I'm a college fan first and foremost) that a guy without anything more than an average jumpshot or post game is a better scorer than Kobe or Hakeem or Duncan. Think whatever you want that makes you enjoy the game more, but it doesn't jive with anything we're actually seeing on TV.


1. Your fixation on the HOW and not the final results is a pitfall. Why doesn't it matter how pretty your shot is, how fine-tuned your post skills are, the ratio between skill and athleticism and so on. I'm not convinced it matters HOW you go about scoring efficiently with volume, just that you do. You can go about scoring a million different ways, and the ways that are better are the ways that yield the most points on the fewest possessions. Historically, he compares very favorable to most these guys. Sure, Duncan's post moves are better than LeBron's: he's a top-5/7 player, and a true PF/C. Sure, his jumper isn't always dominant. Sure, he has other weaknesses. But...

The results are what matter. In the end how competent you are at scoring is what the question is, and you look at the results to answer it. His volume to efficiency is amazing...and that's what you want on a basketball. You can ignore the efficiency stats because it doesn't support what you so clearly want to support but every trip down the court the goal is to score and not waste possessions. That's what efficiency is.

2. Your argument hinges on "you must be young", "ask other people", "look at this one game sample" and so on. Since the stats aren't on your side you have to come with something better, and you aren't. Try harder.

3. I'm not even saying I think he's unquestionably a better scorer than all those guys. I'm just arguing against a guy that is [redacted] enough to say that he has never won a ring as a primary scorer. Your bias is oozing. You claim otherwise, but all you've done the past few weeks is crusade against LeBron. It's hilarious that you suggest you are just a non-biased casual observer. Also, I'm saying that it's really hard to compare the scoring ability of a guy like Shaq to a guy like Larry Bird. I'm not saying he's unquestionably a better scorer than these guys (besides Malone), I'm saying he's an all-time great scorer regardless of how "unconventional" it at times looks. You're making him out to be something way worse than he is. If he trails some of those guys, it's not by much.

4. This series LeBron, scoring-wise, has devolved into what he's always been the counter argument against. He's volume scoring. He's hero-balling. He's even talked about how he doesn't like how inefficient he has been. It's not who he has always been. That doesn't mean that who he has always been is now some myth. 30 points on 27 shots is the worst he's ever done. It's not great. That's why I've struggled so much to differentiate good games vs. bad games for him these playoffs. He's excelling in every other category there is, but scoring-wise he's not. But the fact that a struggle to say he played well in a game where he puts up a huge triple-double is just a testament to how unique of a player he is.

5. Lastly, he's always been more Magic than Jordan. What makes him great is his versatility. He isn't on Jordan's level as a scorer and no one would ever claim that. I get that you're fixating on it because when compared to Jordan, or even Kobe, it's not his best argument. But he can do plenty of other things that MJ couldn't. That's why he's going to go down as a top 5 or so player ever...not because he was the greatest scorer ever.

blams
06-10-2015, 12:07 PM
Very relevant.

Don't talk to me then. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

lololol

Sly Guy
06-10-2015, 12:18 PM
I usually hate the idea of volume shooters, but lebron right now is doing exactly what his team needs him to do. Win or lose, I'd give the award to him, cuz without lebron, the cavs would lose by 40 every game in this series.

lol, please
06-10-2015, 03:20 PM
If the warriors win, the mvp will be curry, iggy, or lee.

Archeus
06-11-2015, 12:13 AM
It would take a very special set of circumstances for this to happen and there is no way this is one of them. Arguably the best player in the league and regular season MVP is playing for GS.

I appreciate that you're a Warrior's fan, but Curry, as good as he is, is probably not the best( or maybe even 2nd best) player in his division. And even if he is, the gap between Steph Curry and Lebron James is astronomical. The problem with the Curry winning the MVP this year is that people are now discussing Steph as if he is Lebron.

Steph is an exceptional player who is a two time All-Star. His numbers are far more comparable to Kyrie Irving than Lebron, only Steph has two All-Star appearances in his six year career. Kyrie has three in his four year career. Lebron is a first-ballot shoo in for the hall of fame. He is already considered by some to be the best player to EVER play the game, and by nearly everybody to be a top 5-6 player...of ALL TIME. Oh, and he will probably be playing at this record-smashing level for another 5-6 years or more. Also, If you actually compare the numbers, it is not clear that Steph Curry is actually better than Kyrie Irving. To say that he is "arguably the best player in the league " is merely hyperbolic.

Lebron has as many Finals MVPs as Steph has All-Star appearances. He has Four, yes FOUR regular season MVPs, and if it wasn't for voter fatigue and his basically taking the first half of this year off, he may have six or seven by now.

Lastly, while anything can happen, and the Warriors are an exceptional team with superb coaching, I don't think that they're winning this years title, so if Lebron gets the MVP- his third- it will not likely come in a failed title bid.

Archeus
06-11-2015, 12:19 AM
Some of you just look at numbers and think he had a good game last night. 39 pts on 11-35 shooting is terrible. Not to mention constantly missing big shots. They're lucky they aren't down 2-0. And James winning mvp if they lose is a joke. I can only assume you're kidding with that question.

And the Warriors are lucky they're not down 0-3. The Cavaliers shot well below their average from the line in game 1. A single additional free throw make in that game and GS is facing a sweep tomorrow night. Everyone saying how Cleveland could be down in this series to to realize that they were closer to 3-0 than 0-3, and it's not even that close.

G_S_W
06-11-2015, 02:18 AM
LBJ is likely to wind up as Top 6 GOAT. I am not certain that he can sustain this level of play for another 5 seasons. He's already declined noticeably from a strictly physical perspective. I've never seen a player as durable, who trains as intensely, or with such scientific precision as LBJ, however, so who knows, LBJ may wind up as the best player in the NBA still at 34 or 35.

Just ignore anyone who makes the bizarre and specious claim that Steph is anywhere near Lebron's level. That proposition is flat out laughable.

What concerns me however is that I actually think Curry himself buys into the hype. I think Curry may have thought this series was going to be easy for himself, and for the Warriors.

Dray and Steph talked way too much trash before the series started and I dare say underestimated the Cavs.

I haven't liked the Warriors' attitude so far. They have displayed a sense of entitlement, as if the title was already theirs. I bought into the hype, too, to be honest.

Well, the Warriors are finding out the hard way that no one is simply going to hand the title to them. They're going to have to fight like they've never fought before JUST TO HAVE A CHANCE.

Remember the Blazers vs Bulls? The media had been hyping up Clyde as Jordan's equal. Jordan used that as leverage to to get to another level, shooting the 3 ball out of his mind and carrying the Bulls on his back to a 2nd consecutive title.

Well, LBJ is using the hype accorded Steph as Lebron's equal for leverage to will himself and the Cavs to their very first title. We'll see if he can do it. Up to this point, the Warriors have been playing lackadaisacal basketball.