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View Full Version : Lebrons Legacy Ruined If He Doesnt Win Finals?



RocketLoc80
06-05-2015, 02:59 PM
Its seems like people are bagging and piling on even when LeBron had a great game and did what he could. But that wobt matter because you got people on the net saying if he loses these finals hes tarnished his legacy for good. I just keep hearing that Jordan or Kobe wouldve won the games by themselves and they wouldve beating this Gsw team by themselves. Ita a bunch of bull because last time i checked its a team game and nobody has won a championship by themselves i dont care what nobody says. If this is all true then Jordan wouldve beating the Pistons in 88,89, and 90 and he would have 9 rings. So is Lebron still a top player or will he fall out if he loses again?

Cal827
06-05-2015, 03:04 PM
Nope

JAZZNC
06-05-2015, 03:05 PM
Stupid *** question that only simpletons need to have explained to them. LeBron is the best of this generation and certainly better than Kobe. These stupid "legacy" debates happen entirely too often. Win or lose LeBron is one of the ten best players of all time when his career is over.

THE MTL
06-05-2015, 03:13 PM
As far as im concerned LeBron is 2/4 in the finals. Him bringing the first Cavs team as well as this Cavs team to the Finals actually helps his legacy. He brought both teams there with no help

jerellh528
06-05-2015, 03:15 PM
Its seems like people are bagging and piling on even when LeBron had a great game and did what he could. But that wobt matter because you got people on the net saying if he loses these finals hes tarnished his legacy for good.I just keep hearing that Jordan or Kobe wouldve won the games by themselves and they wouldve beating this Gsw team by themselves. Ita a bunch of bull because last time i checked its a team game and nobody has won a championship by themselves i dont care what nobody says. If this is all true then Jordan wouldve beating the Pistons in 88,89, and 90 and he would have 9 rings. So is Lebron still a top player or will he fall out if he loses again?

Lol what? Where do you hear this? I've heard the exact opposite. Sounds like you're making bs up just to justify this terrible thread

Hangin n Wangin
06-05-2015, 03:17 PM
He already ruined it hopping from contender to contender. Coming home my ***.

Dade County
06-05-2015, 03:22 PM
He should have never gave Dallas a championship...

He's a business man, not a ball player at heart anymore.


No one should care to debate his legacy, he doesn't care why should you/us.

RocketLoc80
06-05-2015, 03:25 PM
Jerillah or whatever your name is your BS opinion dint matter and you are a hypocrite anyways because you haved used the same arguemebt when it came to your hero Kobe. If you gonna troll be straight up about dont be a coward and change the narrative.

bucketss
06-05-2015, 03:28 PM
He should have never gave Dallas a championship...

He's a business man, not a ball player at heart anymore.


No one should care to debate his legacy, he doesn't care why should you/us.

so whats the script for this year? does lebron follow orders again and lose this series?

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 03:33 PM
This thread is pointless, LeBrons legacy will not be hurt if they lose, Cavs are without Love and Irving is banged up, I picked Cavs to win this series, but only if Kyrie could play and be effective.

RocketLoc80
06-05-2015, 03:38 PM
Dont tell that to Bruce Blitz and Mike Sowell and Mad Genius

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 03:39 PM
Jerillah or whatever your name is your BS opinion dint matter and you are a hypocrite anyways because you haved used the same arguemebt when it came to your hero Kobe. If you gonna troll be straight up about dont be a coward and change the narrative.


He has a point, I dont recall one Laker fan saying they could beat these Warriors by themselves, Kobe for the most part always had a another great player on the team, Shaq and Kobe would destoy this warriors team, but the Kobe-Pau lakers would be a good series, think about the matchups.

Fish-Curry
Kobe- Thompson
Ariza or Artest- Barnes or Iguadola
Pau- Draymond
Bynum- Bogut

Bench

Odom- Iguadola
Farmar- Livingston
GSW would be much deeper cuz they still have Speights, Lee and Ezeli

but this would be a great series.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2015, 03:39 PM
Unless he plays terrible himself, why would it? He lost as an underdog on a team that just lost their 2nd and 3rd best player and his 2nd best player may actually be JR Smith now (not to mention they're playing James Jones rotation minutes).

If you asked people before the finals who would win, they'll all say Warriors would win. But if you talk to them after the finals, they'll all say, "Lebron failed" even if that not might necessarily be the case.

flea
06-05-2015, 03:41 PM
Guess it sort of depends on what you think his legacy is. He's an all-timer as it is but people don't need to spell out a litany of excuses for why a guy lost when he's a top 5 all-timer. Their resume speaks for itself when that happens. Otherwise, Wilt would be the undisputed GOAT.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2015, 03:47 PM
Guess it sort of depends on what you think his legacy is. He's an all-timer as it is but people don't need to spell out a litany of excuses for why a guy lost when he's a top 5 all-timer. Their resume speaks for itself when that happens. Otherwise, Wilt would be the undisputed GOAT.

Jordan was till better than Wilt, no matter the championship count. To me anyways.

kozelkid
06-05-2015, 04:04 PM
so whats the script for this year? does lebron follow orders again and lose this series?

:laugh2:

Duuuude. It's all like a conspiracy man. Lebron has Silver and Stern on speed dial man and just does whatever it takes to make the dough. [And he was also part of the fake moon landing]

D-Leethal
06-05-2015, 04:07 PM
Basketball Gods are getting back at LeBron for frontrunning to the nearest all star team the past 6 years, turning the support teams he flocks to into trash, and swapping running mate Dwyane Wade for running mate JR Smith.

KarlKevinMalone
06-05-2015, 04:17 PM
I think his legacy will be fine considering his stats are top 6 All-Time and the guy that is on the league logo had a 1-8 W/L in the Finals.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-05-2015, 04:18 PM
His legacy is right where it should be. He is a sure thing top 10 player. This series will not change that. He is not Jordan but he can easily be in the debate with the others after Jordan.

jerellh528
06-05-2015, 04:30 PM
Jerillah or whatever your name is your BS opinion dint matter and you are a hypocrite anyways because you haved used the same arguemebt when it came to your hero Kobe. If you gonna troll be straight up about dont be a coward and change the narrative.

Hard to understand what you're trying to say. To me it seems like you're throwing every generic insult you can think of at me, but please, by all means show me this "argument" I have used when it came to my hero Kobe. Plus how do you get "jerillah or whatever your name is" when my name is literally posted right there? You can't copy a row of 7 letters in order without messing up? Also just quote me next time, it shows that you're not trying to say stuff under your breath.

ManRam
06-05-2015, 05:47 PM
A win would be the greatest legacy-defining moment of his career. So, subsequently, a loss probably doesn't shift the needle much. I mean, at this point a win basically would appear to be a miracle, right? How can we shift things too much for not achieving a miracle?

pacofunk64
06-05-2015, 05:51 PM
No way it hurts it...only the trolls will think it actually hurts his legacy. I've never heard anyone say that Magic Johnson's legacy has been hurt because he lost what 4 or 5 times in the finals.

mngopher35
06-05-2015, 05:57 PM
His legacy is right where it should be. He is a sure thing top 10 player. This series will not change that. He is not Jordan but he can easily be in the debate with the others after Jordan.

Pretty much this.

The only people who will really use this finals loss against him are the trolls anyways so who cares. His legacy will be just fine.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-05-2015, 06:23 PM
As far as im concerned LeBron is 2/4 in the finals. Him bringing the first Cavs team as well as this Cavs team to the Finals actually helps his legacy. He brought both teams there with no help

Lolololololol

D-Leethal
06-05-2015, 06:26 PM
This loss really won't affect his legacy. He has no chance. BUT, people will indeed throw out the 2-4 Finals record out there 20 years from now when debating the greats. Fair or not, it's gonna happen. No one is gonna say "well that Julius Irving guy got hurt so he gets a pass." Time erases details, fair or not that is how it will be.

D-Leethal
06-05-2015, 06:30 PM
So to piggy back and disagree on what I just said, it will actually effect his legacy, albeit in an unfair way. LeBron is a guy that will be remembered 50 years from now, he will be debated with the greats, and his Finals record will be a big part of those debates. So yes, it does effect his long term legacy. It won't affect his legacy debates tomorrow or in 5 years, but as time goes on and LeBron's name is cemented with the GOATs this game has ever seen, his Finals record will be used to judge his place and the roster and injury situations will rarely be remembered or microanalyzed by the general populus. Not fair, but the world isn't fair.

Hawkize31
06-05-2015, 06:32 PM
Basketball Gods are getting back at LeBron for frontrunning to the nearest all star team the past 6 years, turning the support teams he flocks to into trash, and swapping running mate Dwyane Wade for running mate JR Smith.

Lebron is the all star team. If he were on any other team in the East, he would probably still be playing in the finals.

When he left Cleveland, they became irrelevant and Miami became the center of the bball world.
When he left Miami, they became irrelevant and Cleveland cakewalked to the Finals.
You think its a coincidence?
You think Wade carried him for 4 years and now Smith/Kyrie are carrying him?
He carried them.

zn23
06-05-2015, 06:35 PM
It's tough to win when you lose 2 of your top 3 players and are going up against the best defensive team in the league and the best overall team in the league. They were able to adjust after Love got injured. But losing Kyrie after game 1 of the Finals is a devastating blow.

If there is a year he should get a pass amongst the fans it's definitely this one.

Saddletramp
06-05-2015, 06:35 PM
He has a point, I dont recall one Laker fan saying they could beat these Warriors by themselves, Kobe for the most part always had a another great player on the team, Shaq and Kobe would destoy this warriors team, but the Kobe-Pau lakers would be a good series, think about the matchups.

Fish-Curry
Kobe- Thompson
Ariza or Artest- Barnes or Iguadola
Pau- Draymond
Bynum- Bogut

Bench

Odom- Iguadola
Farmar- Livingston
GSW would be much deeper cuz they still have Speights, Lee and Ezeli

but this would be a great series.

Does anybody make the Finals without a stacked team other than LeBron?

I'm not saying that you're hating but LeBron gets so much hate for everything he does it's ridiculous considering what he's done. Took an awful team to the finals? "Well he didn't win so I'm going to hate". Teamed up with his friends to dominate? "He had to team up to win." Goes back home? "He's running from one super team to another" (both teams weren't anywhere near contenders before or after he left). His top guys get hurt and he still powers them to the Finals? "He can't win." And of course, other guys have teamed up and other guys have colluded, but LeBron does it and it's the end of the world. Sometimes being a sports fan sucks when you see who you're surrounded with. Sometimes being a sports fan is funny when you see who you're surrounded with. And sometimes it's both.

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 06:41 PM
No way it hurts it...only the trolls will think it actually hurts his legacy. I've never heard anyone say that Magic Johnson's legacy has been hurt because he lost what 4 or 5 times in the finals.



Magic never at any point in his career had a losing record in the finals, he ended up winning 5 out of 9 finals trips or 5-4 if you loike to put it that way. He hit a clutch shot his rookie year, then went back to back a few years later. LeBron after this series will probably be 2 out 6 or 2-4 in the finals, that is a big difference, and Magic was eliminating legends and other stacked teams during the NBA glory days. LeBron is playing in a watered down East and has yet to beat a team that was better than his, you can argue San Antonio was the better team the year the Heat beat them, but that would be a hard argument considering the Heat were the defending champs.

GREATNESS ONE
06-05-2015, 06:45 PM
All I gotta say is, the pressure will be massive when he reaches his next Finals.

D-Leethal
06-05-2015, 06:47 PM
Lebron is the all star team. If he were on any other team in the East, he would probably still be playing in the finals.

When he left Cleveland, they became irrelevant and Miami became the center of the bball world.
When he left Miami, they became irrelevant and Cleveland cakewalked to the Finals.
You think its a coincidence?
You think Wade carried him for 4 years and now Smith/Kyrie are carrying him?
He carried them.

I think you missed the point. You think LeBron went to Miami because he DIDN'T think he had an all star team? Why else would he proclaim they were gonna win 7. You don't think LeBron went to Cleveland because he DIDN'T think they'd have an all star team?

LeBron is doing his best to find himself an all star team, the basketball Gods do not approve of his methods and are sabotaging his attempts. I am not disagreeing he has had to carry his teams of late, but he is flocking around trying to find himself the best supporting cast in the league at every turn, it just so happens to be blowing up in his face.

D-Leethal
06-05-2015, 06:50 PM
When you don't let things happen organically they will get warped.

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 06:57 PM
Does anybody make the Finals without a stacked team other than LeBron?

I'm not saying that you're hating but LeBron gets so much hate for everything he does it's ridiculous considering what he's done. Took an awful team to the finals? "Well he didn't win so I'm going to hate". Teamed up with his friends to dominate? "He had to team up to win." Goes back home? "He's running from one super team to another" (both teams weren't anywhere near contenders before or after he left). His top guys get hurt and he still powers them to the Finals? "He can't win." And of course, other guys have teamed up and other guys have colluded, but LeBron does it and it's the end of the world. Sometimes being a sports fan sucks when you see who you're surrounded with. Sometimes being a sports fan is funny when you see who you're surrounded with. And sometimes it's both.

There have been plenty of teams who were not stacked who made the finals, you are over exxagerating the situation. For example, Iverson, Dirk, JKidd in NJ, Detriot with Chauncey, all went to the finals without stacked teams, and 2 of them won championships.

Also, LeBron deserves all the credit for getting them to the finals. But just stop, the year he took an awful team to the finals, he won 65 games I believe that year, he never won in Cleveland and could have waited for them to build a championship roster, but he didnt, he left Cleveland for something better. Than, just as things were getting bad in Miami, teammates were getting injured and they needed him the most, what did he do? He left to go home ( which we all know is crap, he left to play with younger stars and he forced Cleveland to trade Love for Wiggins, the letter proved that). And it's funny, every team in the history of the NBA needed a team to win the championship, yet every finals LeBron has been to, he gets all the credit for getting them there and winning the ring. Its almost as if he never had any teammates at all, all of his success is credited to him, no one gets credit for his teams success except him.

But Kobe had Shaq..
Magic had Kareem
Duncan has Ginobli, Parker, Leaonard, Robinson
Dirk had Jkidd, Jterry, Tyson Chandler ( all role players at that time)

LeBron has done it all on his own

Lebron had Mo Williams, Ilgauskas, Jamison ( they dont count, they are role players) the worst supporting cast ever?

in Miami
LeBron had Wade, Bosh, Allen, Miller, BAttier, Birdman ( Wade and Bosh are always hurt or past their prime, the rest are not very good roll players?

LeBron in Cleveland again
LeBron had Irving and Love both got injured, still has (Mozgov, TT, Shump and JR) this will be the one time he does not deserve some criticism.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2015, 07:01 PM
There have been plenty of teams who were not stacked who made the finals, you are over exxagerating the situation. For example, Iverson, Dirk, JKidd in NJ, Detriot with Chauncey, all went to the finals without stacked teams, and 2 of them won championships.

Also, LeBron deserves all the credit for getting them to the finals. But just stop, the year he took an awful team to the finals, he won 65 games I believe that year, he never won in Cleveland and could have waited for them to build a championship roster, but he didnt, he left Cleveland for something better. Than, just as things were getting bad in Miami, teammates were getting injured and they needed him the most, what did he do? He left to go home ( which we all know is crap, he left to play with younger stars and he forced Cleveland to trade Love for Wiggins, the letter proved that). And it's funny, every team in the history of the NBA needed a team to win the championship, yet every finals LeBron has been to, he gets all the credit for getting them there and winning the ring. Its almost as if he never had any teammates at all, all of his success is credited to him, no one gets credit for his teams success except him.

But Kobe had Shaq..
Magic had Kareem
Duncan has Ginobli, Parker, Leaonard, Robinson
Dirk had Jkidd, Jterry, Tyson Chandler ( all role players at that time)

LeBron has done it all on his own

Lebron had Mo Williams, Ilgauskas, Jamison ( they dont count, they are role players) the worst supporting cast ever?

in Miami
LeBron had Wade, Bosh, Allen, Miller, BAttier, Birdman ( Wade and Bosh are always hurt or past their prime, the rest are not very good roll players?

LeBron in Cleveland again
LeBron had Irving and Love both got injured, still has (Mozgov, TT, Shump and JR) this will be the one time he does not deserve some criticism.

Lebron didn't make the finals with that team.

They had Daniel Gibson as their starter when they made the finals and won like 51 games.

PowerHouse
06-05-2015, 07:03 PM
:yawn:

This is an annual question. Is it 5 years in a row now that this is asked?

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 07:04 PM
Lebron didn't make the finals with that team.

They had Daniel Gibson as their starter when they made the finals and won like 51 games.

So in my opinion, that year and this year enhance his legacy the most. He cant win without a supporting cast, the Warriors are stacked, the fact lebron is going out swinging gives me the utmost respect for LeBron, he is doing all he can and then some, in no way should his legacy be tarnished, it should actually be enhanced if he keeps fighting like he is doing now.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2015, 07:06 PM
So in my opinion, that year and this year enhance his legacy the most. He cant win without a supporting cast, the Warriors are stacked, the fact lebron is going out swinging gives me the utmost respect for LeBron, he is doing all he can and then some, in no way should his legacy be tarnished, it should actually be enhanced if he keeps fighting like he is doing now.

That's how it should be. West isn't a top 15 player if he goes 1/1 instead of 1/9 in the finals.

BKLYNpigeon
06-05-2015, 07:12 PM
NO.


Magic Johnson won 5 championships, Lost 4

Jerry West, "The Logo" won 1 championship, LOST 8!


it takes more then just one player.

Hangin n Wangin
06-05-2015, 07:13 PM
All I gotta say is, the pressure will be massive when he reaches his next Finals.

He'll probably make it again next year with that **** hole of an Eastern Conference. The Hawks were in the ECF. What a freaking joke.

RaiderLakersA's
06-05-2015, 07:16 PM
His legacy won't be ruined. People seriously need to give the guy a break. If LeBron had the kind of teams that Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Bill Russell or even Robert Horry had, he'd be working on his second hand's worth in championship rings, too.

Winning multiple championships is never about just 1 player.

numba1CHANGsta
06-05-2015, 07:20 PM
Legacy? no, but it sure hurts his chances of ever becoming the greatest player ever or greatest champion ever for that matter.

Ezio
06-05-2015, 07:23 PM
No, this GSW team is a historic team metric wised.

bluefire7002
06-05-2015, 07:34 PM
Lebron is the all star team. If he were on any other team in the East, he would probably still be playing in the finals.

When he left Cleveland, they became irrelevant and Miami became the center of the bball world.
When he left Miami, they became irrelevant and Cleveland cakewalked to the Finals.
You think its a coincidence?
You think Wade carried him for 4 years and now Smith/Kyrie are carrying him?
He carried them.

They actually didn't become irrelevant... If Bosh didn't have the health issues they would of definitely made the playoffs and would have most likely gave the Cavs the biggest challenge in the east.

I agree that James is screwed now with the current injuries, but people act like he did this all year and carried... They had Kyrie and Love most of the year and thats how they ended up with 2nd best record in east. Playoffs had been plagued with injuries and that's how sports are. Deal with it.. I just don't like how people are turning this into how Lebron turned this team around 180 degrees.

JEDean89
06-05-2015, 07:37 PM
Had LBJ stayed in Miami

Whiteside
Bosh
LBJ
Wade
Dragic

what a team that would have been.

bluefire7002
06-05-2015, 07:40 PM
He'll probably make it again next year with that **** hole of an Eastern Conference. The Hawks were in the ECF. What a freaking joke.

Hahah yeah... They will get spanked this year but unless some east team gets crazy stacked this offseason, the cavs will have a cake walk again next year (with Love or no Love).

I said it before. Lebron will have at the end of his career, crazy, blown up, broken every record in the playoffs, due to him playing so many games in the playoffs because he will always stay in a mediocre east.

lincecum=future
06-05-2015, 07:43 PM
Had LBJ stayed in Miami

Whiteside
Bosh
LBJ
Wade
Dragic

what a team that would have been.

They wouldn't have got dragic if he stayed

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 07:47 PM
Too bad LeBron has never learned the word Patience, first sign of trouble and he bails. I wonder if he will even stay in Cleveland.

What would be crazy is, what if Love leaves in the offseason? Will you guys start threads like you do for Kobe?

Why does no one want to play with LeBron? These forums are hilarious.

If Love did leave, I can guarantree you, no one would blame LeBron, it would simply be, Love is loser, he doesnt have the guts to play for a winner, or Love is selfish if he doesnt want to play with LeBron.

Litterally, LeBron can do no wrong..

IrespectNumber3
06-05-2015, 07:47 PM
I don't think Lebron legacy takes a dive if he doesn't win this year. However this was an opportunity to make it debatable he is the closest to Jordan, based on the fact he took a team from not reaching the playoffs to a championship. Lebron has been the best player IMO in the last 4 years but I think the problem is that the West is far more superior than the EAST. Its hard to get your team prepared for the finals going through these EAST teams without being challenged.

Lebron can't win a title by himself.

great Lebron + Good supporting cast = 50% chance wins a title

2007 cavs, 2011 heat werent deep enough.
2012-13 Heat were very deep and had a great bench
2014 Heat had a good supporting cast but the West was far more superior

to me Lebron is truely 2-2 in the finals when given a chance to win it

Jamiecballer
06-05-2015, 07:49 PM
Winning this series would be the crowning achievement for his career. How can it hurt your legacy to lose on that basis. Stupid stupid stupid.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-05-2015, 07:50 PM
It will hurt in a sense because he will not be ranked as high as he should be given his individual talents. Wilt Chamberlain in my opinion is undoubtably the second greatest player ever. But in all time list often times he is regarded 3rd or 4th. Players like Kareem, Magic, and others are ranked ahead of him even though statistically he was better than all of them with the exception of Jordan. Wilt is punished for his 2-4 finals record. So will LeBron be.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2015, 08:03 PM
It will hurt in a sense because he will not be ranked as high as he should be given his individual talents. Wilt Chamberlain in my opinion is undoubtably the second greatest player ever. But in all time list often times he is regarded 3rd or 4th. Players like Kareem, Magic, and others are ranked ahead of him even though statistically he was better than all of them with the exception of Jordan. Wilt is punished for his 2-4 finals record. So will LeBron be.

Yea, it will and it's a shame.

LA_Raiders
06-05-2015, 09:05 PM
Peyton Manning 2.0

xxplayerxx23
06-05-2015, 09:06 PM
He should have never gave Dallas a championship...

He's a business man, not a ball player at heart anymore.


No one should care to debate his legacy, he doesn't care why should you/us.


:laugh: the dumbest thing I've read here ever

Tony_Starks
06-05-2015, 09:12 PM
Top 10 before the Finals, top 10 after.

So, no.

MDD
06-05-2015, 09:14 PM
Yes for his skills to be so great I think anytime he's not overwhelming teams he will take a lot of criticism. Any player that is compare to not just one great player but multiple players is going take criticism. Being considered more athletic than Jordan, speed of a Iverson , 6'8 250 plus built like a Karl Malone able to play and Defend any position and having the passing and vision of a Magic Johnson then you would say no one stands a chance . But don't get it done like greats of the pass, then yes this does hurts his legacy!!!!

asandhu23
06-05-2015, 09:19 PM
No, it doesn't. It's a team sport. It's a team victory / loss.

Dade County
06-05-2015, 09:32 PM
:laugh: the dumbest thing I've read here ever

You should sig it... :nod:


If you look up my past post over the years, there will be more post about Le-Con.

Enjoy

Zefflin
06-05-2015, 10:04 PM
These stupid "legacy" debates happen entirely too often. Win or lose LeBron is one of the ten best players of all time when his career is over.

This sums up Lebrons legacy right here, people like you.

A 19 year old said to me today, "I don't think Lebron is even better than Kobe...I think people forgot how good Kobe was..."

Kids smarter then you, haha.

koreancabbage
06-05-2015, 11:22 PM
This sums up Lebrons legacy right here, people like you.

A 19 year old said to me today, "I don't think Lebron is even better than Kobe...I think people forgot how good Kobe was..."

Kids smarter then you, haha.

or you think like a 19 year old. who knows. *shrugs*

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-06-2015, 02:40 AM
This sums up Lebrons legacy right here, people like you.

A 19 year old said to me today, "I don't think Lebron is even better than Kobe...I think people forgot how good Kobe was..."

Kids smarter then you, haha.

or you think like a 19 year old. who knows. *shrugs*

That kids smarter than you as well.

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 09:06 AM
So people actually think in 30 years when LeBron is debated with the rest of the greats people will dissect each one of his Finals appearances for circumstance and injuries and give him a pass? Of course it will affect his legacy, unfairly so. Legacy's aren't determined and set in stone 5 years out. They are an ongoing debate and will be as long as the NBA exists.

Saddletramp
06-06-2015, 10:02 AM
There have been plenty of teams who were not stacked who made the finals, you are over exxagerating the situation. For example, Iverson, Dirk, JKidd in NJ, Detriot with Chauncey, all went to the finals without stacked teams, and 2 of them won championships.

Also, LeBron deserves all the credit for getting them to the finals. But just stop, the year he took an awful team to the finals, he won 65 games I believe that year, he never won in Cleveland and could have waited for them to build a championship roster, but he didnt, he left Cleveland for something better. Than, just as things were getting bad in Miami, teammates were getting injured and they needed him the most, what did he do? He left to go home ( which we all know is crap, he left to play with younger stars and he forced Cleveland to trade Love for Wiggins, the letter proved that). And it's funny, every team in the history of the NBA needed a team to win the championship, yet every finals LeBron has been to, he gets all the credit for getting them there and winning the ring. Its almost as if he never had any teammates at all, all of his success is credited to him, no one gets credit for his teams success except him.

But Kobe had Shaq..
Magic had Kareem
Duncan has Ginobli, Parker, Leaonard, Robinson
Dirk had Jkidd, Jterry, Tyson Chandler ( all role players at that time)

LeBron has done it all on his own

Lebron had Mo Williams, Ilgauskas, Jamison ( they dont count, they are role players) the worst supporting cast ever?

in Miami
LeBron had Wade, Bosh, Allen, Miller, BAttier, Birdman ( Wade and Bosh are always hurt or past their prime, the rest are not very good roll players?

LeBron in Cleveland again
LeBron had Irving and Love both got injured, still has (Mozgov, TT, Shump and JR) this will be the one time he does not deserve some criticism.


I'm at the river all weekend so I might not check back for awhile but I saw this and laughed at the bolded. I've seen it before. He was there 7 years

YAALREADYKNO
06-06-2015, 10:37 AM
Does anybody make the Finals without a stacked team other than LeBron?

I'm not saying that you're hating but LeBron gets so much hate for everything he does it's ridiculous considering what he's done. Took an awful team to the finals? "Well he didn't win so I'm going to hate". Teamed up with his friends to dominate? "He had to team up to win." Goes back home? "He's running from one super team to another" (both teams weren't anywhere near contenders before or after he left). His top guys get hurt and he still powers them to the Finals? "He can't win." And of course, other guys have teamed up and other guys have colluded, but LeBron does it and it's the end of the world. Sometimes being a sports fan sucks when you see who you're surrounded with. Sometimes being a sports fan is funny when you see who you're surrounded with. And sometimes it's both.

Dirk did it without a stacked team

YAALREADYKNO
06-06-2015, 12:22 PM
He already ruined it hopping from contender to contender. Coming home my http://loanwebfast.com/green/images/62.gifhttp://insuranceautocars.com/insurance/images/37.gif

You're not saying a kyrie led cavs team were contenders are you?

mgjohnson7851
06-06-2015, 12:28 PM
You're not saying a kyrie led cavs team were contenders are you?

I believe he is.... pretty funny actually.

mngopher35
06-06-2015, 12:37 PM
So people actually think in 30 years when LeBron is debated with the rest of the greats people will dissect each one of his Finals appearances for circumstance and injuries and give him a pass? Of course it will affect his legacy, unfairly so. Legacy's aren't determined and set in stone 5 years out. They are an ongoing debate and will be as long as the NBA exists.

This is partially right, I think some will use it against him a bit without context. Most people will see a finals appearance as a decent thing though not a negative. In 30 years I bet very few remember much on big z or Tristan Thompson though so people will probably still realize some of these teams weren't great (30 years from now probably considered scrubs basically so they could be underrated. It may hurt him a bit more though who knows right now.

The other side is that if people aren't analyzing that deeply as you claim the eastern conference won't be as big of a downer for him either. He is going to set a lot of playoff records and that will be big for him in 30 years especially if context is gone.

L8kers4life
06-06-2015, 12:39 PM
You're not saying a kyrie led cavs team were contenders are you?


I think he meant, when LeBron left to go back to Cleveland, he went knowing it would be himself, Kyrie and Love, in the waek *** East, if you dont think that is a contender, I'm not sure what is.

The East is so weak, that any team LeBron goes to would be a contender in the East. So the jumping from contender to contender is pretty irrelevant.

nickdymez
06-06-2015, 12:43 PM
Everyone making the excuse "it's a team sport" just doesn't have a clue. It's up to your superstars to put the team on his back and take over big games.

With that said, I won't hold this against him. You do need another superstar out there with you. Kyrie going down is a terminal loss.

Teufelshunde4
06-06-2015, 12:44 PM
Its seems like people are bagging and piling on even when LeBron had a great game and did what he could. But that wobt matter because you got people on the net saying if he loses these finals hes tarnished his legacy for good. I just keep hearing that Jordan or Kobe wouldve won the games by themselves and they wouldve beating this Gsw team by themselves. Ita a bunch of bull because last time i checked its a team game and nobody has won a championship by themselves i dont care what nobody says. If this is all true then Jordan wouldve beating the Pistons in 88,89, and 90 and he would have 9 rings. So is Lebron still a top player or will he fall out if he loses again?

No. But Bron won't ever catch MJ for GOAT. I'm sorry not hating... MJ never lost a Finals and Bron has gotten smoked in 3 of his 5 Finals so far. If it happens again this year that would be 4 out of 6 non competitive Finals played in by Bron. Some are quick to blame his teammates. If ur the force that put your team into the Finals then can't push the 4 more wins. It is on you

mgjohnson7851
06-06-2015, 12:45 PM
I'm at the river all weekend so I might not check back for awhile but I saw this and laughed at the bolded. I've seen it before. He was there 7 years

Yeah people like to ignore the fact that Cleveland was not getting LeBron help. How long was he supposed to sit there and watch his inept front office put it all on LeBron?

People talk about Kobe and MJ like they're so much better because they stayed on their original team, but they disregard the fact that their teams had a front office willing to give them help.

Kobe proved that he can't win if it is just him. Missed the playoffs, and was very low seeds.
MJ is the GOAT but he also had more help than either Kobe or LeBron.

mgjohnson7851
06-06-2015, 12:50 PM
No. But Bron won't ever catch MJ for GOAT. I'm sorry not hating... MJ never lost a Finals and Bron has gotten smoked in 3 of his 5 Finals so far. If it happens again this year that would be 4 out of 6 non competitive Finals played in by Bron. Some are quick to blame his teammates. If ur the force that put your team into the Finals then can't push the 4 more wins. It is on you

So against the best and typically deepest team in the NBA, he is supposed to guard 5 players and do all the scoring too? Seems legit.

mngopher35
06-06-2015, 01:12 PM
Everyone making the excuse "it's a team sport" just doesn't have a clue. It's up to your superstars to put the team on his back and take over big games.

With that said, I won't hold this against him. You do need another superstar out there with you. Kyrie going down is a terminal loss.

So its dumb to make the "excuse" it's a team game when evaluating individuals, yet you won't hold this against lebron because he doesn't have enough help from his team? Sure that makes total sense.

It isn't an excuse to call it a team game, that's exactly what basketball is. That is why you always hear the dumb horry comparison when someone hinges their arguments on rings. It's very dumb to ignore the team aspect and then focus on the teams results when looking at an individual player.

nickdymez
06-06-2015, 01:15 PM
So its dumb to make the "excuse" it's a team game when evaluating individuals, yet you won't hold this against lebron because he doesn't have enough help from his team? Sure that makes total sense.

It isn't an excuse to call it a team game, that's exactly what basketball is. That is why you always hear the dumb horry comparison when someone hinges their arguments on rings. It's very dumb to ignore the team aspect and then focus on the teams results when looking at an individual player.
Well when he wins, it's all lebron and when he loses its because he has no help. Make up your mind people.

likemystylez
06-06-2015, 01:22 PM
No. But Bron won't ever catch MJ for GOAT. I'm sorry not hating... MJ never lost a Finals and Bron has gotten smoked in 3 of his 5 Finals so far. If it happens again this year that would be 4 out of 6 non competitive Finals played in by Bron. Some are quick to blame his teammates. If ur the force that put your team into the Finals then can't push the 4 more wins. It is on you

You are aware that the team he is playing was the heavy favorite going into the series, and it got worse once kyrie went out? It is an insane thing to ask any one player to fight off a roster that goes 10 or 11 deep by himself- regardless of how great that player is.

Oh yeah its not like the warriors are just a bunch of role players... lebron might be the best guy ont he floor overall but curry is capable of being the best player on the floor for long stretches. They have 2 guys had all nba defensive seasons this year and one guy who was all nba defense last year. They probably have the best bench in the league. They were the best offensive and defensive team int he league through out the regular season, they have an insane home court advantage, their starters have played less minutes per game than any team in the post season... which means as the series moves on- their starters are going to be more likely to explode than the cavs.

This is crazy to put completely on lebron james or any one player in history. If they lose the series- it should not impact anybodies opinion of how good lebron is.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2015, 01:25 PM
This season and finals loss will add to his legacy in my book.

mngopher35
06-06-2015, 01:29 PM
Well when he wins, it's all lebron and when he loses its because he has no help. Make up your mind people.

Not true (except for a few lebron homers), pretty much everyone blames lebron for his 2011 performance.

They also realize the 2007 and 2015 cavs teams he's been on were way outmatched and it was due to his teammates (or lack of). It's also obvious when they do win its because lebron is the best player out there (usually).

It is all about context and looking at how things happened, not just a team result at the end of the year. Rings do matter, but context is way more important.

likemystylez
06-06-2015, 01:31 PM
This season and finals loss will add to his legacy in my book.

LOL its not like he joined a team that was ready to win a championship or even be a competitor immediately. The fact that he got them this far takes a pretty special player. Unfortunately- he kinda ran into a historically great team. Its not always a Cinderella story with a perfect ending- doesnt mean hes a failure.

likemystylez
06-06-2015, 01:32 PM
it wasnt always great for jordan either- he just happened to not get it handed to him in the finals. LOL its just when he ran into these powerhouse teams. I doubt jordan got to the conference finals and said "oh well its not the finals- its no big deal if I have it handed to me by the pistons... it wont hurt my legacy as much"

YAALREADYKNO
06-06-2015, 01:33 PM
So against the best and typically deepest team in the NBA, he is supposed to guard 5 players and do all the scoring too? Seems legit.

What he needs to do is stop trying to shoot 3's and take his big ***** self down to the post. Instead of shooting fadeaway 21 foot jumpers why not back down the opponent and get a better shot.

mngopher35
06-06-2015, 01:38 PM
This season and finals loss will add to his legacy in my book.

Mine too, but not as much as other years. He has had an alright playoffs but was a bit inneficient (although he has to create everything at times). This is also the first year where I question if he's still the best player in the league since like 09 (durant was close last year).

He is falling off a little bit but it was still a good overall year for him. This cavs without love and Irving are just way outmached vs gs.

KnicksorBust
06-06-2015, 01:40 PM
LOL its not like he joined a team that was ready to win a championship or even be a competitor immediately. The fact that he got them this far takes a pretty special player. Unfortunately- he kinda ran into a historically great team. Its not always a Cinderella story with a perfect ending- doesnt mean hes a failure.

I don't understand the LOL. I'm saying his legacy is greater now than it was last year. He added to it. Improved it. Aren't we making the same argument here?

likemystylez
06-06-2015, 01:40 PM
What he needs to do is stop trying to shoot 3's and take his big ***** self down to the post. Instead of shooting fadeaway 21 foot jumpers why not back down the opponent and get a better shot.

Thought he did a lot of that as well. its pretty physically demanding to do that every single play against elite defense with weakside help constantly coming. ALso- if he gets into a situation where he is trading hard work back down 2s for run and gun 3s- he could be working as hard as possible and find his team down double digits. It isnt like the warriors cant score with people

likemystylez
06-06-2015, 01:42 PM
I don't understand the LOL. I'm saying his legacy is greater now than it was last year. He added to it. Improved it. Aren't we making the same argument here?

yes- win ore lose in these finals- what lebron has done to get the cavs to this level is something very few players in history could have done

Jamiecballer
06-06-2015, 03:11 PM
So people actually think in 30 years when LeBron is debated with the rest of the greats people will dissect each one of his Finals appearances for circumstance and injuries and give him a pass? Of course it will affect his legacy, unfairly so. Legacy's aren't determined and set in stone 5 years out. They are an ongoing debate and will be as long as the NBA exists.
You are right but as heavy underdogs either way it won't change a thing. Irving just gives them an outside chance.

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 03:34 PM
it wasnt always great for jordan either- he just happened to not get it handed to him in the finals. LOL its just when he ran into these powerhouse teams. I doubt jordan got to the conference finals and said "oh well its not the finals- its no big deal if I have it handed to me by the pistons... it wont hurt my legacy as much"

I think with MJ it took him awhile to break through but once he did he was bulletproof. He took the reigns and never let go. Thats why he is the GOAT - the success he sustained during his "run". LeBron has had so many ups and downs during this 6 year run of success since he went ring chasing.

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 03:37 PM
You are right but as heavy underdogs either way it won't change a thing. Irving just gives them an outside chance.

It shouldn't change a thing but I think it will when people look at LeBron's resume vs Jordans or Kareems and try to find his pecking order on the GOAT list in 20 years. Irving's injury will be forgotten. Time erases details.

Jamiecballer
06-06-2015, 04:10 PM
It shouldn't change a thing but I think it will when people look at LeBron's resume vs Jordans or Kareems and try to find his pecking order on the GOAT list in 20 years. Irving's injury will be forgotten. Time erases details.
I just agreed with that. But I don't think objective fans will forget that his team is and should be huge underdogs regardless.

D-Leethal
06-06-2015, 04:39 PM
I just agreed with that. But I don't think objective fans will forget that his team is and should be huge underdogs regardless.

Objective fan that was growing up during this time yea. Objective fan that is 5 years old and in 20 years will be 25 no, unless they are a historian as well.

likemystylez
06-06-2015, 04:47 PM
I think with MJ it took him awhile to break through but once he did he was bulletproof. He took the reigns and never let go. Thats why he is the GOAT - the success he sustained during his "run". LeBron has had so many ups and downs during this 6 year run of success since he went ring chasing.

ehhh- yeah I suppose its just a coincidence that once jordan sustained that level of success- he copntinued to have a great team around him and it continued. But yeah that was just jordan all of a sudden becoming a great player, and great players win championships- so he said "what the heck, I'll go out and carry this team to a few"

BTW- when jordan retired for a year- I think that same bulls team won just one fewer game, and still were considered a contender. Im not sure that would be the case with the cavs.

Also- Jordan didnt even make the playoffs when he played for washington... hmmmm. he still played great and made all star games.... but the team around him wasnt as good. its crazy how that works. I guess jordan forgot how to be GOAT

Jamiecballer
06-06-2015, 06:30 PM
Objective fan that was growing up during this time yea. Objective fan that is 5 years old and in 20 years will be 25 no, unless they are a historian as well.
I get what you are saying. I'd like to think that most basketball fans take just a wee bit of an interest in the leagues history and will continue to do so in the future.

flea
06-06-2015, 06:45 PM
Also- Jordan didnt even make the playoffs when he played for washington... hmmmm. he still played great and made all star games.... but the team around him wasnt as good. its crazy how that works. I guess jordan forgot how to be GOAT

He did not play "great" in Washington. It was pretty pathetic, actually, and most fans regard it as a blemish on his resume as a player. Any top 20 player can carry his team to the playoffs in the NBA, it is not a very difficult feat (especially in the East). That is why no serious fan cares much about regular season stats.

Jayb587
06-06-2015, 07:02 PM
lebrons still an all time great. the only thing his finals record tarnishes is the debate vs MJ, you will never convince a MJ lover that LeBron is better than MJ with a 2-6 finas record. His place amongst all the other all time greats is still up for debate tho

Tony_Starks
06-06-2015, 10:04 PM
lebrons still an all time great. the only thing his finals record tarnishes is the debate vs MJ, you will never convince a MJ lover that LeBron is better than MJ with a 2-6 finas record. His place amongst all the other all time greats is still up for debate tho


Still hasn't passed Bird in my book. This Finals performance will be taken into consideration though, win or lose.

If you want to say he's outmatched because of injuries OK cool, but even a completely outmatched Iverson vs the best team in history got a game and kept a few games competitive. I expect nothing less from Lebron.

buck4493
06-06-2015, 11:34 PM
I'm missing something in people saying LeBron left Miami for another team built to win. Cavs were garbage when he signed. They didn't have love or mozgov Smith, shumpert. They were crap. Had Irving and varejao. That's about it

Jamiecballer
06-06-2015, 11:38 PM
Still hasn't passed Bird in my book. This Finals performance will be taken into consideration though, win or lose.

If you want to say he's outmatched because of injuries OK cool, but even a completely outmatched Iverson vs the best team in history got a game and kept a few games competitive. I expect nothing less from Lebron.
[emoji50]

basch152
06-07-2015, 12:30 AM
ehhh- yeah I suppose its just a coincidence that once jordan sustained that level of success- he copntinued to have a great team around him and it continued. But yeah that was just jordan all of a sudden becoming a great player, and great players win championships- so he said "what the heck, I'll go out and carry this team to a few"

BTW- when jordan retired for a year- I think that same bulls team won just one fewer game, and still were considered a contender. Im not sure that would be the case with the cavs.

Also- Jordan didnt even make the playoffs when he played for washington... hmmmm. he still played great and made all star games.... but the team around him wasnt as good. its crazy how that works. I guess jordan forgot how to be GOAT

Ugh, so much facepalm here. Like the ignorance blows my mind.

First of all the year Jordan retired the Bulls didn't even make it out of the second round, obviously with Jordan they kept winning finals, that's a HUGE difference.

When Jordan came back they won 72 games and were the best team in NBA history, and won the finals. That's a difference of 17 wins. Don't sit there and try to act like MJ wasn't a monstrous difference maker on that team. With the addition of Mozgov, shumpert, JR, love, and Thompson getting a lot better Lebron still added just 20 wins to the Cavs this season.

Seriously, trying to downplay MJ because his team got to the second round of the playoffs without him when with him they were the best team ever is just beyond ridiculous.

Also, Jordan was not still playing great in Washington. He was a solid player that was 37 in his first season there. The fact that you're reaching that far to make excuses is completely ridiculous.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-07-2015, 06:03 AM
I just agreed with that. But I don't think objective fans will forget that his team is and should be huge underdogs regardless.

Well, people always blurt out that Magic is 5-4 in the finals and add no context. They don't remember in 89 that Byron Scott got hurt before the first finals game and Magic played one game if that series before getting hurt himself. That Laker team was 12-0 going into the finals. Magic should probably be 6-3. They also don't mention the Lakers being up 1-0 on the Bulls when Worthy went down in 91. But they still count it as a loss for Magic. Maybe he is 7-2? But people don't and won't remember context for Lebron.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-07-2015, 06:06 AM
Not true (except for a few lebron homers), pretty much everyone blames lebron for his 2011 performance.

They also realize the 2007 and 2015 cavs teams he's been on were way outmatched and it was due to his teammates (or lack of). It's also obvious when they do win its because lebron is the best player out there (usually).

It is all about context and looking at how things happened, not just a team result at the end of the year. Rings do matter, but context is way more important.

You say context is important but disregard why he is in the finals so often. You said you would hold him in higher regard for what he did this year and in 07 as if it was hard to do facing the competition he had to face. What happened to context?

If i told you about a pro who averaged 39 points, 7.5 rebounds, 5.5 assist and 2.3 steals on 58% ts, you would think he's pretty great right. Well that happened this year by a dude named Errick McCollum in the Chineses basketball association. Do you still feel he accomplished something great? No right? Well that's how most feel about Lebron beating crap or hurt teams to get to the finals.

buck4493
06-07-2015, 06:47 AM
LeBron if wins, finals record is just as good as Jordans at same point in career. Lebrons losses are better than failing to make the finals 3 other times in same time period.

Must be better to lose 52 games and exit in first round than lose in finals. That's how many games at 21 Jordan lost. LeBron was in finals at same age.

Just needs to get to 6 and will be equal for career and possibly better as a result of going to finals more

likemystylez
06-07-2015, 08:48 AM
Well, people always blurt out that Magic is 5-4 in the finals and add no context. They don't remember in 89 that Byron Scott got hurt before the first finals game and Magic played one game if that series before getting hurt himself. That Laker team was 12-0 going into the finals. Magic should probably be 6-3. They also don't mention the Lakers being up 1-0 on the Bulls when Worthy went down in 91. But they still count it as a loss for Magic. Maybe he is 7-2? But people don't and won't remember context for Lebron.

LOL- well people can just take a gander at the roster lebron had to work with in cleveland on both occasions. Not that im jumping to the conclusion that this one will be a loss LOL.

In Miami its a little bit different. If your gonna bail and form a "superteam"- (which guys like jordan and magic never did)- then people dont really want to sit back and give you the benefit of the doubt about things like "the air conditioning was broken", or d wade had a sore hamstring. LOL they were playing against a bunch of senior citizens and the heat were losing by an average of 15 ppg. sorry but most fans expect a reasonably better showing from a superteam... otherwise, whats the point?

hidalgo
06-07-2015, 10:15 AM
Well, people always blurt out that Magic is 5-4 in the finals and add no context. They don't remember in 89 that Byron Scott got hurt before the first finals game and Magic played one game if that series before getting hurt himself. That Laker team was 12-0 going into the finals. Magic should probably be 6-3. They also don't mention the Lakers being up 1-0 on the Bulls when Worthy went down in 91. But they still count it as a loss for Magic. Maybe he is 7-2? But people don't and won't remember context for Lebron.no no no, Worthy played the first 4 games of the 1991 finals, & led the Lakers in ppg for the series. he did miss game 5 because he re-aggravated an slight ankle injury, making it more serious, but before that he was fine, & playing quite well. rookie Elden Campbell who barely played in the finals replaced him for game 5 & scored 21 points, so that was exactly like having Worthy for that game. a guy who otherwise wasn't gonna play put up Worthy's numbers, & it was a close game 5

buck4493
06-07-2015, 12:14 PM
Not true (except for a few lebron homers), pretty much everyone blames lebron for his 2011 performance.

They also realize the 2007 and 2015 cavs teams he's been on were way outmatched and it was due to his teammates (or lack of). It's also obvious when they do win its because lebron is the best player out there (usually).

It is all about context and looking at how things happened, not just a team result at the end of the year. Rings do matter, but context is way more important.

You say context is important but disregard why he is in the finals so often. You said you would hold him in higher regard for what he did this year and in 07 as if it was hard to do facing the competition he had to face. What happened to context?

If i told you about a pro who averaged 39 points, 7.5 rebounds, 5.5 assist and 2.3 steals on 58% ts, you would think he's pretty great right. Well that happened this year by a dude named Errick McCollum in the Chineses basketball association. Do you still feel he accomplished something great? No right? Well that's how most feel about Lebron beating crap or hurt teams to get to the finals.

Why would I think it avg 39 points in China was great??

Must be a great player if he can't play in nba

Beating hurt teams?? I'm assuming you're talking about Atlanta, what hurt player was better than the injured Kyrie Irving.

They beat the Bulls as well who were a very good team.

Golden state beat a hurt team as well and we're down 2-1 before the gut went out for Memphis

Injuries are part of the deal

Tony_Starks
06-07-2015, 12:35 PM
Well, people always blurt out that Magic is 5-4 in the finals and add no context. They don't remember in 89 that Byron Scott got hurt before the first finals game and Magic played one game if that series before getting hurt himself. That Laker team was 12-0 going into the finals. Magic should probably be 6-3. They also don't mention the Lakers being up 1-0 on the Bulls when Worthy went down in 91. But they still count it as a loss for Magic. Maybe he is 7-2? But people don't and won't remember context for Lebron.no no no, Worthy played the first 4 games of the 1991 finals, & led the Lakers in ppg for the series. he did miss game 5 because he re-aggravated an slight ankle injury, making it more serious, but before that he was fine, & playing quite well. rookie Elden Campbell who barely played in the finals replaced him for game 5 & scored 21 points, so that was exactly like having Worthy for that game. a guy who otherwise wasn't gonna play put up Worthy's numbers, & it was a close game 5

Not sure if you watched or just read on it but I actually watched and Worthy was gimpy the whole series. It was no "slight" injury. In fact a lot of fans were upset that we didn't just send him home after we got game 1 so he could get more rest.

Byron Scott also got hurt during the series as well but that's never mentioned. Like the other poster said they just chalk it as a L, that's the way it goes. Even against the Piston's without Magic and Scott I've seen people have the ridiculous audacity to say "well they would've lost anyway."

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 01:24 PM
ehhh- yeah I suppose its just a coincidence that once jordan sustained that level of success- he copntinued to have a great team around him and it continued. But yeah that was just jordan all of a sudden becoming a great player, and great players win championships- so he said "what the heck, I'll go out and carry this team to a few"

BTW- when jordan retired for a year- I think that same bulls team won just one fewer game, and still were considered a contender. Im not sure that would be the case with the cavs.

Also- Jordan didnt even make the playoffs when he played for washington... hmmmm. he still played great and made all star games.... but the team around him wasnt as good. its crazy how that works. I guess jordan forgot how to be GOAT

You think LeBron is retiring for 3 years and coming back at damn near 40 and carrying a team to the playoffs? The fact that MJ could come back at that age after 3 yrs retirement and put up 20ppg in the NBA is nothing short of amazing. Father time is undefeated and that won't change for LeBron.

LeBron has played on great teams. You take him off the 2011-2013 teams and they are a 50+ game winner too.

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 01:25 PM
I get what you are saying. I'd like to think that most basketball fans take just a wee bit of an interest in the leagues history and will continue to do so in the future.

It takes more than a wee bit of interest to really know the details of every single Finals series from 20 years back. I don't, you don't, and the kids 20 years from now won't.

Jayb587
06-07-2015, 01:59 PM
Ugh, so much facepalm here. Like the ignorance blows my mind.

First of all the year Jordan retired the Bulls didn't even make it out of the second round, obviously with Jordan they kept winning finals, that's a HUGE difference.

When Jordan came back they won 72 games and were the best team in NBA history, and won the finals. That's a difference of 17 wins. Don't sit there and try to act like MJ wasn't a monstrous difference maker on that team. With the addition of Mozgov, shumpert, JR, love, and Thompson getting a lot better Lebron still added just 20 wins to the Cavs this season.

Seriously, trying to downplay MJ because his team got to the second round of the playoffs without him when with him they were the best team ever is just beyond ridiculous.

Also, Jordan was not still playing great in Washington. He was a solid player that was 37 in his first season there. The fact that you're reaching that far to make excuses is completely ridiculous.

I disagree. I think you can downplay MJ somewhat. They had a 55 win team without him and were one play in a game 7 away from the eastern conference finals. The following year MJ returned and they lost in the second round again. They became completely dominant the next year when rodman joined. Just shows even the greats need great players around them to form great teams. Jordan had a ton of help even tho some idiots believe he did it all alone.

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 02:02 PM
I disagree. I think you can downplay MJ somewhat. They had a 55 win team without him and were one play in a game 7 away from the eastern conference finals. The following year MJ returned and they lost in the second round again. They became completely dominant the next year when rodman joined. Just shows even the greats need great players around them to form great teams. Jordan had a ton of help even tho some idiots believe he did it all alone.

No one said he did it all alone. But once he got the help he was bulletproof. When LeBron got the help he wanted he faltered all over the place.

Jamiecballer
06-07-2015, 02:04 PM
Well, people always blurt out that Magic is 5-4 in the finals and add no context. They don't remember in 89 that Byron Scott got hurt before the first finals game and Magic played one game if that series before getting hurt himself. That Laker team was 12-0 going into the finals. Magic should probably be 6-3. They also don't mention the Lakers being up 1-0 on the Bulls when Worthy went down in 91. But they still count it as a loss for Magic. Maybe he is 7-2? But people don't and won't remember context for Lebron.
Good points. I usually don't engage in the ring convos but you are right

Jayb587
06-07-2015, 02:07 PM
No one said he did it all alone. But once he got the help he was bulletproof. When LeBron got the help he wanted he faltered all over the place.

Yea. Once u got the team and get to where u want to be. You got to perform. Lebron has faltered there

mngopher35
06-07-2015, 02:26 PM
You say context is important but disregard why he is in the finals so often. You said you would hold him in higher regard for what he did this year and in 07 as if it was hard to do facing the competition he had to face. What happened to context?

Can you show me where I disregarded this? I know that the east has been weaker, I don't think I ever implied it hadn't. Also just because his opponents haven't been quite as good as the west doesn't mean that it isn't somewhat hard/impressive.


If i told you about a pro who averaged 39 points, 7.5 rebounds, 5.5 assist and 2.3 steals on 58% ts, you would think he's pretty great right. Well that happened this year by a dude named Errick McCollum in the Chineses basketball association. Do you still feel he accomplished something great? No right? Well that's how most feel about Lebron beating crap or hurt teams to get to the finals.

This is exactly the type of stuff you expect to see when it comes to Lebron on here, so ridiculous. Someone is now comparing the eastern conference to the chinese league. The east has been weaker for sure but there have still been some tough teams along the way (just less of them). We should take a look to add some context to 2007 and 2015. Lets also remember that this is probably somewhere in the 7-10 range for Lebrons best years as an individual, this is like start/end of his peak and prime type years.

In 2007 Cavs played Wiz, Nets, Detroit in east and Lebron was 22 years old with Big Z as likely their 2nd best player. I don't think Washington or Nets were good teams (nets were better with kidd/carter/Jefferson vs. arenas/butler/jamison) but Lebron played good in both series which should be noted. Cavs were a solid defensive group but just full or role players not 2nd option types. Detroit had Billups/hamilton/prince/Wallace/Webber (older not near prime) which was a pretty good team and far from crap (didn't have ben's defense from championship team so drop from that but still good and 1st in east).

This series Lebron overall had 25.7/9.2 (reb)/8.5 (ast) with 3.2 turns and .537 TS% (113ortg). He also had the best defensive rtg for his team and had 2.7 stl per game so while not the elite defender he was in his prime he still was making an impact on that end. The series had some ups and downs throughout for Lebron with a couple bad games to start (0-2) but overall he played very good and was easily the best player on the court (as he should be). Game 5 was huge as Cavs had just tied the series at 2-2 and would be headed home for game 6. This is the only game game that went into overtime and also is the game Lebron took over late and scored the last 25 points and 29/30 to end the game with an OT win. If you think that doing this in the nba playoffs with a not so great supporting cast is crap and comparable to the chinese bball league that is totally on you. To me that seems like a really odd position to take since bleacher report has it as a top 11 individual nba playoff performance, ESPN has it as #20 best performance across all 4 major sports and #4 for nba playoff performances. I'm not even saying it should be ranked as high as they have it, just pointing out that while you personally may not find this impressive others have found it to be one of the most impressive feats.

BR: (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1637366-the-15-greatest-individual-performances-in-nba-playoff-history/page/6)
ESPN: (http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8085373/the-25-best-single-game-individual-playoff-performances-all-time) and (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8068148/nba-playoffs-top-25-performances-ever).

This year Lebron came back to the cavs and by late season after adding jr, shump, moz had a really good cavs team. There were questions about them defensively and if they were truly elite overall but I think basically everyone had them as a top 8 or so team (many had them higher too). They had an incredibly easy boston series that wouldn't be worth mentioning but Love got injured. Then they played the bulls and had kyrie hobbled with bulls missing gasol for a couple games. Lebron didn't have a great series (shout out to Butler here) but he did come through in big moments at least (after being down 2-1 he had a game winning shot and an amazing game 5 (38 pts) to help get the lead back). Lebron played slightly better vs. Atlanta but Kyrie was basically a non factor and Atlanta ended up with injuries as well (korver, carrol). Atlanta kind of just caved in but Lebron still had a solid series with no Love/Kyrie so I'm not sure why the other teams injuries are so important in context when the Cavs have actually been hit the hardest in that department. While these weren't great teams and not a hugely impressive feat Lebron still did what he needed to beat these teams (and there were plenty before each one who thought bulls or hawks would win). I'm not saying that the cavs who have played haven't been good but they have had top players injured like other teams (and then some). This is just the playoffs too, he had good regular seasons and was top 5 in MVP voting both years as well.

Again, overall if you think Lebron doing this is comparable to that chinese league guy that is on you. If you want to call it unimpressive for crap teams (and ignore some decent/good ones) and blame injuries (while ignoring cavs have more) that is fine but it seems a bit ridiculous to me. Even though I was looking at positives I am not even saying that these are career defining years for him or anything like. I just don't think they are comparable to the chinese league or it is a huge negative on his legacy for losing these two years in the finals with out matched teams (if they do lose to GS). To me that is just an extremely poor way to look at things.

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2015, 02:48 PM
Lèbron

5ass
06-07-2015, 02:51 PM
It takes more than a wee bit of interest to really know the details of every single Finals series from 20 years back. I don't, you don't, and the kids 20 years from now won't.

So how come jordon doesnt get **** for losing to a 22 year old Shaq?

lakerboy
06-07-2015, 03:05 PM
Lebron is 2/6 in the finals bruh

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 04:06 PM
So how come jordon doesnt get **** for losing to a 22 year old Shaq?

Because he came back like 2 weeks before playoffs after a 2 year hiatus and the following season when he had a full training camp he won the MVP and his team had the best season in NBA history and eventually went on to 3-peat.

Bostonjorge
06-07-2015, 04:17 PM
James will have two elimination's by sweeps, a choke job and the worst finals lost in history. All during his peak.

James finals legacy is set in stone. It's not a good one.

Saddletramp
06-07-2015, 04:37 PM
James will have two elimination's by sweeps, a choke job and the worst finals lost in history. All during his peak.

James finals legacy is set in stone. It's not a good one.

Team game bro. It's amazing he's done what he's done. If your boyfriend Kobe doesn't have the Shaq/Gasol blanket then he can't sniff the Finals. Not sure why I'm replying to you, though. You've shown how awful of a poster you are time and time again.

5ass
06-07-2015, 04:43 PM
Because he came back like 2 weeks before playoffs after a 2 year hiatus and the following season when he had a full training camp he won the MVP and his team had the best season in NBA history and eventually went on to 3-peat.

There you go, 20 years laters the details still matter. If in 20 years people hold this finals against LeBron, if he loses, then they're just ignorant. Eventually, they would debate with a respectable basketball fan that can educate them.

LakerShow
06-07-2015, 04:48 PM
James will have two elimination's by sweeps, a choke job and the worst finals lost in history. All during his peak.

James finals legacy is set in stone. It's not a good one.

:rimshot:

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 04:53 PM
There you go, 20 years laters the details still matter. If in 20 years people hold this finals against LeBron, if he loses, then they're just ignorant. Eventually, they would debate with a respectable basketball fan that can educate them.

Not really. Most people don't even know MJ even played in 1995 playoffs.

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 04:54 PM
There you go, 20 years laters the details still matter. If in 20 years people hold this finals against LeBron, if he loses, then they're just ignorant. Eventually, they would debate with a respectable basketball fan that can educate them.

Not really. Most people don't even know MJ even played in 1995 playoffs.

KB24PG16
06-07-2015, 05:08 PM
losing is losing, but lebron is actually in a good situation. if he loses, everyone says it was expected and don't put it on him, but if they somehow win everyone on the internet declares him goat

Munkeysuit
06-07-2015, 05:17 PM
Oh yea, people on the net matter when it comes to determining who's Legacy is validated LOL
Lebron has already cemented his status as one of the GOAT! in my honest opinion, he doesn't need to win anything else and he still stands taller than most...next subject!

D-Leethal
06-07-2015, 05:27 PM
Oh yea, people on the net matter when it comes to determining who's Legacy is validated LOL
Lebron has already cemented his status as one of the GOAT! in my honest opinion, he doesn't need to win anything else and he still stands taller than most...next subject!

People on the internet form general consensus. Nobody questions he is one of the GOAT, his place on Mount Rushmore is basically cemented - how tall he stands in that top 5 pecking order is what has yet to be determined - that is where these things matter.

hidalgo
06-08-2015, 04:08 AM
Not sure if you watched or just read on it but I actually watched and Worthy was gimpy the whole series. It was no "slight" injury. In fact a lot of fans were upset that we didn't just send him home after we got game 1 so he could get more rest.

Byron Scott also got hurt during the series as well but that's never mentioned. Like the other poster said they just chalk it as a L, that's the way it goes. Even against the Piston's without Magic and Scott I've seen people have the ridiculous audacity to say "well they would've lost anyway."yes i've watched the entire series several times over(i have it on dvd). Worthy was leading them in ppg, he was just fine. maybe his ankle was sore, but so what, he was putting up typical James Worthy stats, so he was fine. not like he was limping or anything. (and like i said, Elden Campbell stepped up & put up his numbers in game 5, so it's basically irrelevant Worthy missed, because Campbell wasn't gonna play otherwise)

Scott got hurt in the last minute of game 4 i believe, but he stunk the whole series, so blessing in disguise there, more playing time for Terry Teagle, & Tony Smith who both played better in game 5 than Scott was playing prior.

so no excuses, the Lakers were right there in a close game 5, & Jordan just kept finding Paxson for open jumpers. also i'm sick to death of the media & fans re-writing history & saying Scottie guarded Magic for that series. if they'd actually sit & watch the games like i do, they'd see MJ guarded Magic almost exclusively. 85-90% of the time

now against Detroit in 89, having Magic for only 1 full game, & him going out with an injury halfway through game 2, then a whopping 5 min in game 3, he missed more than half the finals. losing your BEST player over half the series, now THAT is a legit excuse, plus Scott missed the entire series. the 1991 lakers were were far far more healthy, & only lost Worthy and Scott for game 5 when they were already down 3-1, & there replacements stepped up just fine for game 5. also by the time they got hurt late in game 4 it was clear they werent gonna beat the Bulls anyway. you're not coming back down 3-1 against that team

naps
06-08-2015, 04:56 AM
I was rooting against the Cavs this season. But I think I am leaning towards them now just because how some fans of a specific player will use it against him. To them getting out in the first round is better than losing in the finals. We talkin about logic? I mean we talkin about logic here??