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View Full Version : All-Time Redraft Finals: (1) Jerusalem vs (1) Rochester



Shammyguy3
06-02-2015, 07:00 PM
Each year PSD users on the forum partake in a fantasy snake-draft consisting of all-time players. Players are designated for certain eras based on their peak, and we've used a general 5 year prime to try and rank players overall value (so try and vote based on that 5-year peak as best you can). After the draft, opposing conferences voted for playoff ranking. So, given the two rosters below, if they were to face in real life (with every player in their 5-year prime), which team would win in the 7-game series?

1. Jerusalem (Home-Court Advantage)
PG: Steve Nash - Mike Conley
SG: Alvin Robertson - Eddie Jones
SF: Grant Hill - Michael Finley
PF: Dirk Nowitzki - Mychal Thompson
C : Hakeem Olajuwon - DeMarcus Cousins

1. Rochester
PG: Penny Hardaway - Mike Bibby
SG: Tracy McGrady - Jason Richardson
SF: Bruce Bowen - Dale Ellis
PF: Chris Webber - Dan Issel
C: Shaquille O'Neal - Zydrunas Ilgauskas


Jerusalem Write-Up

1.) Talent Disparity: Rochester’s 2nd best player (Tracy McGrady) is equivalent to Jerusalem’s 4th best player (Grant Hill). Nash (top 7 greatest point guards in NBA history) and Hardaway (only 2x NBA First teams) is another huge leap in talent.

2.) Overall Team Fit/Chemistry/Identity: Jerusalem has the perfect floor spacing (Nash/Dirk), rebounding (Robertson/Hill/Dirk/Hakeem), passing (all 5 guys), slashing/cutting (Nash/Robertson/Hill), efficiency (Nash/Dirk/Hakeem), defense (Robertson/Hill/Hakeem), scoring (all 5 guys are 20+ ppg in the regular season and/or playoffs). There is a clear offensive pecking order, defensive responsibilities, and who is controlling the offense.

Rochester has 2 guys (McGrady/Hardaway) who have the same skillset (high volume scoring, running the offense) with the same weaknesses (inefficient shooting, subpar spacing, terrible defense), a black hole offensively (Bruce Bowen), the king of inefficiency (Chris Webber), and a guy who can’t make free throws (Shaq). Shaq/Webber/McGrady/Hardaway all crowd the post and midrange game, leaving them vulnerable offensively. They are highly talented but have a terrible fit with no identity on offense. Who runs the offense? Will Hardaway have similar USG% as Shaq did in the 1995 Finals? Will McGrady have his typical 35+ USG%? Who is spacing the floor so Shaq can do his work in the post? How do you stop Jerusalem’s 5 elite offensive players?

3.) Defense: Jerusalem has 2 Defensive Players of the year (Alvin Robertson/Hakeem Olajuwon) and a really good wing defender in Grant Hill in their starting lineup. Coming off the bench, Eddie Jones, Mychal Thompson, and Mike Conley have all made the NBA defensive 1st and/or 2nd team.

Rochester’s ONLY wing defender is Bruce Bowen. Rochester can’t say “McGrady can play defense when he wants to” because we are going off their 5-year prime. He didn’t play defense in his prime, and if he “could” play defense, he should have. Carmelo Anthony has shown he can play defense in short bursts, but it doesn’t mean he’s a good or even average defender because he doesn’t do it long term. How can you win a championship with 2 post defenders (1 on bench) and only 1 good wing defender on the entire roster? To get the other good post defender, Rochester would have to get sit Shaq or Webber. Jerusalem’s wings will run rampant offensively.

4.) Postseason Pedigree: Hakeem led his Rockets to back-to-back championships winning FMVP twice. Dirk Nowitzki led his Mavericks to the Finals twice (winning FMVP), having only Jason Terry as his 2nd best player. Steve Nash has led his team to multiple Western Conference Finals. If Jerusalem’s players could do that individually, one can only imagine what they could have done together in real life!

Rochester’s only save and grace is Shaq. Tracy McGrady, Chris Webber, and Penny Hardaway are 3 players that were good in the regular season, but underperformed in the postseason. 3 of Rochester’s starting 5 players struggled extensively in the postseason…

5.) Home Court: As if Jerusalem didn’t have enough of an advantage, they also have home court.

Head-to-head (with 5-year prime stats)

Steve Nash (2004-2009) vs Penny Hardaway (1994-1999)

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Steve Nash is a 2x MVP point guard; Hardaway only has 2x All NBA 1st team selections. Nash has led 6 of the 12 best offenses in NBA history. Yes, Hardaway got more points, but look at his efficiency and minutes per game. Nash scores almost as many points but with incredibly higher efficiency, less USG%, almost doubling his assists (what a point guard should be doing), and shooting lights out from the 3PT arch. For someone so tall playing the point guard position, Hardaway was only a slightly better rebounder. Neither player was great defensive in their prime. Jerusalem wins this match up handily.

Alvin Robertson (1985-1990) vs Bruce Bowen (2000-2005)

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Alvin Robertson not only has the Defensive Player of the Year award (which Bowen doesn’t), leads the league in steals/game, he also destroys Bruce in every statistical metric. Bowen was a great defender in his prime, but looking at his numbers (and he did play over 32 minutes a game), you will see Robertson is the better rebounder, playmaker, and efficient scorer. Comparing playoff stats, Robertson further separates himself to Bowen with how he turned up his scoring and efficiency while maintaining his elite level of play where as Bowen plummeted to 37% FG shooting, only scoring 6.3 PPG in his 5-year playoff prime. Rochester’s best and only wing defender is simply a one-dimensional player; Jerusalem’s DPOY wing defender is an elite two-way player. Jerusalem wins this match up as well.

Grant Hill (1995-2000) vs Tracy McGrady (2000-2005)

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Both players had great 5-year primes. McGrady was the more dynamic and higher volume scorer (although less efficient and with a 35.0 USG%), but Hill was the better playmaker, passer, rebounder, efficient scorer, and defender. Overall, this matchup is a draw. Fortunately for Jerusalem, their 4th best player is on par with Rochester’s 2nd best player.

Dirk Nowitzki (2005-2010) vs Chris Webber (1998-2003)

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Dirk Nowitzki is a top 10 greatest playoff performers in NBA history; He is 1 of 4 players to average 25 and 10 for their playoff career. In Dirk’s 5-year prime, he is 26 and 11. Not only is Dirk an MVP and FMVP, he has the playoff pedigree that Chris Webber lacks. Webber was a good regular season guy, but he was known for his underwhelming performances in the playoffs.

In Webber’s 5-year playoff peak, he averaged .487 TS%! Compare this to Dirk’s .599 TS%, and you quickly see how inefficient Webber is. Furthermore, Dirk was actually the better rebounder in the playoffs (15.7 TRB% to Webber’s 13.6 TRB%). Defensively, Dirk was a plus defender in his prime but Webber [admittedly] never adapted his game to become a plus defender. Seeing as Webber is only a broke man’s version of Dirk Nowitzki, Dirk wins this matchup with absolute ease.

Hakeem Olajuwon (1990-1995) vs Shaquille O’Neal (1997-2002)

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These are 2 of the best centers to ever play the game. They have similar numbers but they got them in different ways. Shaq used his physical dominance; Hakeem used his athletic frame, speed, and skillset. You could just throw the ball to Shaq in the post and he’d dominate most centers in the post; Hakeem used the most unguardable offensive weapon, the skyhook, to score against the best defenders in NBA history. Had Shaq and Hakeem never played against each other, this would be a wash. Unfortunately for Rochester, they did…

Now I know Rochester is going to say “Hakeem swept and destroyed ‘baby Shaq’ “. The 1995 NBA Final’s was Shaq’s 3rd year. If you look at his career averages year-by-year, you will see the virtually identical numbers posted from his 1st year to his 11th year.

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Answer this question that was asked to you in your other matchup: What did Shaq change about his game that would make the 1995 Finals turn out any differently than if it was the 1997-2002 Shaq on that Orlando Magic team? Did he learn to hit free throws? Did he stop relying on his physical dominance? No, he didn’t. He has always used his physical dominance to score against weaker centers ever since he entered the league. This “baby Shaq” excuse is cute, but I doubt many people will buy it.

It’s safe to say that individually, these players are equal, but head-to-head against each other, Hakeem’s quickness, athleticism, and skillset are proven to be superior to Shaq’s physical dominance. Jerusalem wins this matchup.

Bench vs Bench

Jerusalem’s bench is superior to Rochester’s bench. Bibby is a one-dimensional player, Conley is a two-way player. Jason Richardson is a one-dimensional player, Eddie Jones is a two-way player. Dale Ellis is a one-dimensional player, Michael Finley is an even better one-dimensional player. Dan Issel and Mychal Thompson are essentially a wash. DeMarcus Cousins is superior to Zydrunas Ilgauskas but I’m sure neither will get any playing time though.

Defense

I’m not even sure if Rochester knows how they will run their offense with so many ball dominant players on it. Either way, Jerusalem will go under the screen/pick due to Rochester’s inefficiency and inability to consistently hit midrange/3PT shots. Jerusalem has the advantage of playing their guys straight up, only double-teaming when absolutely necessary. Due to Rochester’s pedestrian FT shooting percentages (Bowen 55.4%, Webber .67.9%, Shaq 54.8%), Jerusalem can play aggressive man-to-man defense.

Steve Nash has the perfect offensive black hole player to guard in Bruce Bowen. Hiding Nash defensively on Bowen will allow Nash to save his energy for the offensive end of the floor as Bowen just sits at the corner 3 all day long. Jerusalem is happy to send their only subpar defender on a 7.4 ppg “scorer”.

Jerusalem’s defensive ace, Alvin Robertson (DPOY winner), will be guarding Hardaway and McGrady throughout the game. Robertson is a top 4 wing defender in NBA history and should make the already inefficient and ball dominant Hardaway and McGrady shoot even more shots to get their points.

Grant Hill has always been his team’s best wing defender and used as such. He, too, will be guarding Hardaway and McGrady throughout this series. His speed and length will give Hardaway and McGrady fits. They will still get their points, but it’s going to take even more shots than they typically have to take.

Dirk Nowitzki turned into a plus defender during his 5-year prime. Dirk will be daring Webber to take his (inefficient) midrange jumpers by going under screens and giving him space on the perimeter. Jerusalem will gladly live with Webber jacking up shots as we know Webber did in his underwhelming postseasons.

Hakeem will be guarding Shaq. Even when Hakeem dominated the Magic/Shaq, Shaq still got his points; there won’t be shutting Shaq down, only making life more difficult and tiresome. However, Hakeem is a 2x Defensive Player of the Year and has proven to be the best defender in Shaq’s career.

Offense

Pick and roll

Pick and roll basketball will be Jerusalem’s bread and butter. Jerusalem is blessed with 3 hyper efficient players. Nash/Hakeem, Nash/Dirk, and Dirk/Hakeem are to be the 1, 2, and 3 options. Hakeem (skyhook) is considered the most unguardable player in NBA history, and Dirk (one-legged fade away) is considered the 2nd most unguardable player in NBA history. Shaq couldn’t stop Hakeem, and Webber definitely lacks the defensive skillset to stop Dirk. In all fairness, that isn’t exactly a shot to either Shaq or Webber; David Robinson and Tim Duncan couldn’t stop Hakeem/Dirk in their prime and they were 2 of the greatest bigman defenders in NBA history.

Half Court

Nash will be leading the offense. His penetrating, passing, spacing, shooting, and efficiency make him a lethal offensive player. Dirk provides Hakeem with elite spacing which will make Hakeem even more unguardable in the post. If Rochester doubles down on Hakeem, Hakeem will use his elite passing abilities to pass it to the open perimeter player (Dirk/Nash) or to a cutter (Grant Hill/Alvin Robertson). Jerusalem has 5 phenomenal passers which will make finding the open man/cutter easier and more lethal offensively.

Rochester only has 1 post defender, and 1 wing defender; Jerusalem has 5 legitimate offensive threats with elite efficiency and a perfect balance of spacing, slashing, and post scoring. Even with premium defenders it would be difficult to cover all 5 players, but without them, it is impossible.

Tempo/Fastbreak

Jerusalem has the perfect starting 5 for playing at an extremely up tempo game (for moments they choose to play that way). However, they will mostly be playing at a hybrid speed (faster than average, but not run and gun) to capitalize on their strengths and on Rochester’s weakness (Shaq having to exert more energy). The times when they do pick and choose their moments for a fast pace offense, Jerusalem has 4 above-average rebounders (Robertson/Hill/Nowitzki/Hakeem) to get the defensive board and initiate the fast-paced offense. All 5 starters are well above average passers and capable of igniting the fastbreak. Off steals, where Robertson and Hakeem are the best in NBA history at doing for their respective positions, Jerusalem plans to floor it to the other end. Having a change in pace tempo will make them that less predictable offensively which is tougher to guard defensively.

Bench Play

Jerusalem has the luxury of replacing their starters with players that actually improve their spacing and defense! Mike Conley is arguably the current best defensive point guard in the league, Eddie Jones was a 18+ ppg scorer with elite 3 point shooting and defense, Michael Finley was a 22/6/5 player with elite 3PT shooting, and Mychal Thompson was an elite defender, passer, and post scorer.

Rochester has to severely downgrade in talent to get a better fit. With the exception of 7 points Bowen, Rochester’s starting lineup has below average spacing and 3PT shooting. When they replace their starters with 3PT shooters, the talent disparity grows even more. Jerusalem doesn’t have to sacrifice talent for a good fit; they already have a great fit with 2-way bench players.

Rochester Write-Up

First of all, the three of us would like to congratulate Redrum on making the finals in what I believe would be his first year participating. There aren't many people that can claim that as a feat.

Now before we really get into things, we would like to remind you one more time that these players are to be considered at their peak rather than their overall careers. A player such as Steve Nash may be considered better on an all-time scale compared to Penny Hardaway, but when viewing their primes, it becomes much more interesting and may even tilt in Hardaway's favor. As you would expect, we'll further into this topic in just a little bit.

This also means players that may have developed a certain part of their game to a higher level later on in their careers should be viewed differently. For example, Grant Hill's improved defense and floor spacing as his career went on should not be considered part of his overall ability in this game.

Now for the PG discussion.

Penny Hardaway had an unfortunate short prime due to injuries (his first four years in the league). But in three of those four seasons, Hardaway managed to have a higher VORP (Value over Replacement) than any season Steve Nash was able to achieve. If that's not enough, all four of PH's peak years, he had a higher BPM than what Nash had at any point in his career.

Hardaway also showed up when it mattered most, raising his level of play come playoff time. He managed to reach the NBA finals in only his second season, something Nash was unable to do over the course of his entire career. If you'd like to point out that Hardaway had an amazing sidekick, we have him too, and at that point he had yet to reach his peak. Hardaway was also able to lead the playoffs one year in PER (an impressive 29.9), as well as WS/48. Albeit, in limited games due to their playoffs run short. Still, the point stands. Hardaway stepped up when it mattered most.

It's unfortunate Hardaway and Nash never really got a chance to play against each other throughout each others prime. I'm sure that would have made for an exciting match-up. However, two players I would like to compare when they faced off in H2H games are Mike Bibby, my backup, and Steve Nash, the starter.

In 17 playoff games playing H2H, Mike Bibby played 38.5 minutes per game averaging 18.4 PPG on 45-43-92 shooting while dishing out 5.1 APG. Steve Nash played 38.6 minutes per game averaging 17.4 PPG on 45-43-90 shooting while dishing out 8.2 APG. Aside from assists, those are nearly identical numbers between the two PG's. So not only was Nash unable to take advantage of our backup PG defensively come playoff time, he couldn't stop him either.

Hardaway is a much better all around player, more athletic and much more physical than Mike Bibby. When you consider that Hardaway elevated his game come playoff time and very arguably had the better prime than Nash, how could anyone expect Steve Nash to outperform Penny Hardaway over the course of a seven game series?

To move on to another match-up, much has been made of Chris Webber's play come playoff time throughout these playoffs. Although that may be true to an extent, his play never dropped off when going H2H up against Dirk Nowitzki in both the regular season (21 games) and playoffs (12). Chris Webber in the playoffs actually outplayed Dirk while playing 6 minutes less than what Dirk averaged (36 to 42). He held Dirk to under 50% shooting in their career H2H games, and that continued over into the playoffs, holding him to an unimpressive 44%. Chris Webber averaged 51% shooting in both the regular season and playoffs.

We also believe Webber to be better than Nowitzki defensively. We'll be the first to say that Nowitzki was underrated as a defender as his career went on, but early on, there's a reason so many people labeled him as a poor defender. The highest DBPM Dirk Nowitzki posted in his career was 1.7, which is a number Chris Webber surpassed 10 times through his career, even having as high as a 3.7 DBPM. Dirk also had a negative DBPM 7 times in his career, although 4 of those seasons occurred outside his prime, so essentially 3. Never in Chris Webber's career did he have a negative DBPM.

To continue on defense, we feel the criticism of our starting lineup's defense has been unwarranted, and also feel we're the better defensive team in this series. You could make the case we have the better defensive player at four of the starting 5 positions. We feel Tracy McGrady is a better defender than Grant Hill (Hill got better as his career went on but wasn't nearly as good early on in his career). Penny Hardaway is better than Steve Nash by a good margin, and as we mentioned above, we feel Webber is better than Dirk. As for Alvin Robertson and Bruce Bowen, we feel Bowen is just as good if not better defensively while also being much more versatile. Robertson was great defensively, but his size limits who he is able to defend. At 6-3, I would feel very comfortable having him defend either Penny Hardaway or especially Tracy McGrady, who we would expect him to be on.

We'll have Bruce Bowen guarding Steve Nash, leaving McGrady guarding Hill and Hardaway guarding Robertson. We personally love the idea of having Bowen limiting Jerusalem's best offensive perimeter player and primary ball handler because we feel very comfortable leaving McGrady and Hardaway on Hill and Robertson. Rochester is the most athletic and physical team in this entire game, and that will certainly be more and more of a factor the longer this series goes on. We'll wear you down over the course of a 7 game series, Grizzlies style.

A couple other things I would like to address are 3PT shooting and the efficiency of this Rochester team. I wouldn't say they're the strengths of this team, but they have been greatly exaggerated as being major flaws, which they are not.

We actually have better 3PT shooting than our opponent here in this match-up. Jerusalem may have the best 3PT shooter in the starting lineups (Nash), but when looking at both starting lineups and benches, we feel comfortable saying we have better 3PT shooting. Only one season in each of Grant Hill's and Alvin Robertson's respective primes did they attempt more than one 3PT shot per game, and they did so averaging from mid 20% to low 30%. Even Penny Hardaway, our worst 3PT shooter managed to average 31% from 3 while attempting about three 3's per game.

Tracy McGrady in his prime shot 34%, 35%, 36% and 38% (6 attempts per game) from 3 in his prime. No comments need to be said about Bruce Bowen, other than that in his best shooting season he shot 44% on 3 attempts per game. Another thing I would like to say is that it's ridiculous to say we'll be playing 4 on 5 offensively due to Bruce Bowen. If anything, you could say it'll be 4 on 4. You'll have to account for Bowen no matter what. If you leave him open, he will make him you pay. And with playmakers such as Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady and Chriss Webber, I can assure you they'll find him open every time. Bowen knows his role and will not be taking touches away from Penny, Tracy, Webber and Shaq unless he's open. We feel he's a perfect compliment to our players and doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective.

We have very good, to even elite 3PT shooters off the bench. Mike Bibby, Jason Richardson and our 6th man, Dale Ellis.

Unfortunately, because I decided to start this so late I don't have time to finish. But I would like to quickly touch on Shaq vs Hakeem, as I'm sure it'll be talked about plenty.

They never really got a chance to play each other in their prime. At first, it was Shaq not yet reaching his prime, after that Hakeem's prime ended.

Although, when they played each other in the playoffs and finals, Shaq either dominated Hakeem (past his prime), or held his own when he was "baby" Shaq. In the finals, the Rockets swept the Magic, and Hakeem ultimately scored over 30 points in each game. But even against baby Shaq, Hakeem shot 46% twice in that series, while the lowest Shaq shot was 55%. Shaq was also able to outrebound Hakeem in that series.

I apologize this ended so abruptly, it's my fault I started it this late but I do have to go. I look forward to talking more in the thread.

Redrum187
06-02-2015, 07:41 PM
I knew the "baby Shaq" argument was coming... but to use Webber's prime h2h with Nowitzki pre-prime is funny and ultra convenient. The difference being, Dirk actually developed into a good defender in his prime; Shaq didn't change a thing about his game. His prime is the same from year 2 as it was from year 11. The only thing different was the year.

I'm sorry... Hardaway's peak is just as good if not better than Nash's? His 2 years where he made NBA 1st team were superior to Nash's 2 MVP's and you're using VORP to prove that? Then you use a team accomplishment (reaching the NBA Finals) as an accolade to Hardaway when A.) Hakeem destroyed his team, and B.) he was the 2nd fiddle to Shaq. Nash is the 3rd best player on Jerusalem, who was the number 1 guy who led his team to multiple Conference Finals appearances. I could understand if Hardaway was the man that led the team, that could be argued an individual accolade, but he rode Shaq's coattail.

Bowen was a great defender, not taking anything away there, but why was he "better" defensively? Robertson's DPOY award begs to differ. As far as Bowen being more versatile? He could guard 1-3, but he guarded 2-3 the best. Robertson can guard 1-3, but 1-2 the best. Both versatile. Alvin's defense at worst is a wash, but his offense is light years ahead of Bowens. Did Bowen ever average 20+ PPG while playing elite defense in the postseason 3 years in a row? Did he even average 10 ppg 3 years in a row in the playoffs?

Your team is better at 3 point shooting than my team? Did you forget Dirk Nowitzki? Eddie Jones? Mike Conely? Michael Finley? You list percentages without specifying years, when percentage is only one variable. That's like me saying, "Hardaway shot 37%, 42%, and 44% from FG in 3 of his 5 year prime". It needs more context, no? Jerusalem's players are not only better 3PT % shooters, they were also significantly higher volume. Thankfully, I posted the stats of each player to show their regular season and playoff averages. Furthermore, are you going to be playing your bench players more to accommodate your lack of spacing? For the record, McGrady had a 5-year prime of 35.3% from 3PT, and Hardaway averaged 32.0% 3PT shooting in his 5-year prime. That is pretty pedestrian.

MFFL==FML
06-02-2015, 08:10 PM
This matchup favors Jerusalem by a lot. I like that they are putting Nash on Bowen, so that doesn't hurt their team.

There aren't many teams that can compete with Jerusalem, but Rochester is probably his easiest opponent with this matchup. Brampton and Seaside were the only teams that matched up a little bit to Jerusalem.

I just really hate Rochester's write up. So many bogus claims with no supportive evidence. Hardaway is not in the same league as Steve Nash. That's too much stretching... I'm a huge Tmac fan, but not even I'm buying he was a better defender than Grant Hill in their primes. Tmac was lazy defensively. I also don't buy Rochester has better 3 point shooting. If Jerusalem's images are correct, he proves otherwise.

Questions for Rochester:

1. How many minutes will your bench 3 point shooters play?

2. Do you think playing 4 on 5 offensively will cause you problems?

3. Jerusalem is the king of efficiency, how do you think your efficiency compares?

I'm leaning Jerusalem in 5, but I'll wait for a response to officially vote.

Jets012
06-02-2015, 08:46 PM
I got to be real quick with this, I'll be back later:

1)"Talent Disparity: Rochester’s 2nd best player (Tracy McGrady) is equivalent to Jerusalem’s 4th best player (Grant Hill). Nash (top 7 greatest point guards in NBA history) and Hardaway (only 2x NBA First teams) is another huge leap in talent."

Considering T-Mac is one of the most talented players of all time and has one of the better peaks in NBA history, you're really stretching with that one. One of the few players with a PER over 30 in a season, McGrady just struggled staying healthy. Not to mention you just omitted Webber.

I'll also address your point claiming your guys would have no issues defending our guys one on one. I respect everything Robertson did as a perimeter defender, but at the end of he day height, strength, and weight do make a huge difference. I'd feel pretty comfortable putting a 6'3'' Robertson who spent much time guarding PGs and hybrid SGs in his career, against an athletic, physical freak like T-Mac on our side. He's giving up 5 inches in that matchup. Even if you put him on Penny, I'd be confident Penny would get some looks considering he also has 4 inches.

Arguably every position we have might have the advantage in pure strength and size. In a grueling series, yes I do think our athleticism and strength might play a toll. Take a look at how the Grizzlies teams have been so successful the past few postseasons. We plan on grinding these games out.

Sadds The Gr8
06-02-2015, 09:39 PM
Grind-out? I think your team has to run Jerusalem out of the gym with the athletes u have, not slow it down.....

Jets012
06-02-2015, 09:45 PM
Grind-out? I think your team has to run Jerusalem out of the gym with the athletes u have, not slow it down.....

Grind out in terms of physicality and athleticism. Not really in terms of pace. Should have clarified that

Redrum187
06-02-2015, 09:53 PM
Saying "Hardaway's peak is just as good if not better than Nash" isn't a stretch but Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady are on par is? :eyebrow: I'm not taking away from any one individually great season McGrady had... he was really good in his prime, but no matter how you slice it, prime McGrady is on par with prime Grant Hill. Did you not look at their 5-year prime numbers I posted in the write up? Hill was the better play maker, more efficient scorer, better rebounder, and better defender. Also, this isn't who had the highest PER year, it's in a 5 year peak.

About Hill only being good defensively after his prime, how about no? Hill won 1993 NABC Defensive Player of the Year (right before entering the NBA). Michael Jordan even complemented Hill's defense. There is a reason the media dubbed him as "the next Michael Jordan". If you think don't think McGrady and Hill are essentially a wash, tell me, how much better is he than Hill? I'd also like any and all objective basketball player sites/analysts that have your opinion that "McGrady was a better defender than Hill". I have 4-6 sources that say otherwise; let me know if you want me to post them.

The bigger question is: Who is going to be guarding Jerusalem's efficient scorers? All were 20+ ppg scorers in the playoffs and Bowen is your only wing defender on your entire roster.

MFFL==FML
06-02-2015, 10:47 PM
If we are going off peak prime, then my opinion is as followed:

Nash > Hardaway
Robertson > Bowen
Hill < McGrady
Nowitzki > Webber
Olajuwon > Shaq

McGrady is the only player on Rochester that has the advantage and it's not by much. Hill is definitely in the same ballpark as McGrady though.

The reason Olajuwon wins easily for me is in his peak he is the only player in NBA history to win DPOY, FMVP, and MVP in the same season. Not even Michael Jackson could make that claim. The 1995 finals just cements it for me.

killthesux
06-03-2015, 12:02 AM
If we are going off peak prime, then my opinion is as followed:

Nash > Hardaway
Robertson > Bowen
Hill < McGrady
Nowitzki > Webber
Olajuwon > Shaq

McGrady is the only player on Rochester that has the advantage and it's not by much. Hill is definitely in the same ballpark as McGrady though.

The reason Olajuwon wins easily for me is in his peak he is the only player in NBA history to win DPOY, FMVP, and MVP in the same season. Not even Michael Jackson could make that claim. The 1995 finals just cements it for me.

lol, I didn't know he played in the NBA

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2015, 12:13 AM
Lol

Redrum187
06-03-2015, 12:36 AM
LOL!!! Michael Jackson... R.I.P. :P

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2015, 01:36 AM
lol, I didn't know he played in the NBA
Lol

valade16
06-03-2015, 09:53 AM
I think people need to go back and look at the numbers from the 95 Finals. Shaq lost to Hakeem because Hakeem's team dominated Shaq's team.

Hakeem: 44.8 MPG | 32.8 PPG | 11.5 RPG | 5.5 APG | 2.0 SPG | 2.0 BPG | 48.3% FG | 69.2% FT
Shaquille: 45.0 MPG | 28.0 PPG | 12.5 RPG | 6.3 APG | 0.3 SPG | 2.5 BPG | 59.5% FG | 55.7% FT

Doesn't seem like Hakeem really crushed Shaq, and to answer the question, yes Shaq got unquestionably better both on defense and offensively in his later years.

Also, if we're talking about head2head numbers, people would be interested to see this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=webbech01

It looks like C-Webb had pretty comparable numbers to Dirk (better, actually) when they played head to head. Yes one could argue Dirk wasn't in his absolute prime, but it's not like Dirk going into his prime would make these numbers look drastically different.

Hell, one could use those to argue C-Webb would be more efficient than Dirk in this series.

Lucky.
06-03-2015, 11:06 AM
I knew the "baby Shaq" argument was coming... but to use Webber's prime h2h with Nowitzki pre-prime is funny and ultra convenient. The difference being, Dirk actually developed into a good defender in his prime; Shaq didn't change a thing about his game. His prime is the same from year 2 as it was from year 11. The only thing different was the year.

The difference is that baby Shaq more than held his own against Hakeem. And you're wrong to state that Shaq from year 2 to year year 11 is the same. Absolutely not. From the time Shaq played Hakeem in the finals, to his prime, he managed to put on upwards of 40 pounds. That only helps his style of play. He managed to have arguably the most dominant season ever in 99-00.

I wouldn't say Dirk was ever a good defender. As his career went on, his defense got better to the point where he wasn't nearly as much of a liability as many thought. And now you're stretching it to the point where Dirk is a good defender, just as you are with nearly every part of your arguments. The fact is, you have two poor defenders for an ATRD, one that is overrated due to how he played later on in his career, and another that is undersized to be guarding anyone on our team. The shortest person in our starting 5 is 6-7, 4 inches bigger than Alvin Robertson.


I'm sorry... Hardaway's peak is just as good if not better than Nash's? His 2 years where he made NBA 1st team were superior to Nash's 2 MVP's and you're using VORP to prove that? Then you use a team accomplishment (reaching the NBA Finals) as an accolade to Hardaway when A.) Hakeem destroyed his team, and B.) he was the 2nd fiddle to Shaq. Nash is the 3rd best player on Jerusalem, who was the number 1 guy who led his team to multiple Conference Finals appearances. I could understand if Hardaway was the man that led the team, that could be argued an individual accolade, but he rode Shaq's coattail.

Well, in Penny's four year prime, all four seasons he managed to have a higher BPM than any Nash season ever, including his MVP seasons. In three of those seasons, his VORP was higher than any Nash season ever, including his MVP seasons. Nash's MVP seasons are also considered some of the worst MVP seasons ever, and if you'd like to disagree, I have 4-6 sources that say otherwise; let me know if you want me to post them.

Bowen was a great defender, not taking anything away there, but why was he "better" defensively? Robertson's DPOY award begs to differ. As far as Bowen being more versatile? He could guard 1-3, but he guarded 2-3 the best. Robertson can guard 1-3, but 1-2 the best. Both versatile. Alvin's defense at worst is a wash, but his offense is light years ahead of Bowens. Did Bowen ever average 20+ PPG while playing elite defense in the postseason 3 years in a row? Did he even average 10 ppg 3 years in a row in the playoffs?

Yes, I believe Bowen is the better defender as well as the more versatile defender. You're going to say otherwise, because y'know, he's your guy. I don't expect to get too far on this one so I plan to leave this be. We'll both just say our guy was better. I think majority would agree with me.

Let's not act like Alvin Robertson was some efficient monster. He was, indeed, more efficient than Bowen though. I think it's ridiculous that we're getting criticized for USG% in an ATRD. If people can't understand that those stats would change in an ATRD, there's really nothing to argue against. But I think it's funny that although we're criticized for USG%, we're then criticized for having a player like Bowen who doesn't need the ball in his hands. I'll go as far as to say Bowen is a much better fit for our offense, than what Alvin is to yours. Why can't Bowen be what Shane Battier was for the Heat? What's so wrong with that? Bowen is here to stretch the floor. Alvin isn't nearly as effective without the ball in his hands. As someone mentioned, again, below. It will not be 4 on 5 offensively. If you want to leave Bowen open for 3, be my guest.


Your team is better at 3 point shooting than my team? Did you forget Dirk Nowitzki? Eddie Jones? Mike Conely? Michael Finley? You list percentages without specifying years, when percentage is only one variable. That's like me saying, "Hardaway shot 37%, 42%, and 44% from FG in 3 of his 5 year prime". It needs more context, no? Jerusalem's players are not only better 3PT % shooters, they were also significantly higher volume. Thankfully, I posted the stats of each player to show their regular season and playoff averages. Furthermore, are you going to be playing your bench players more to accommodate your lack of spacing? For the record, McGrady had a 5-year prime of 35.3% from 3PT, and Hardaway averaged 32.0% 3PT shooting in his 5-year prime. That is pretty pedestrian.

I listed seasons that were part of McGrady's prime. How would you like me to be more specific? List the exact year? What does it matter if they're all in his prime? Hardaway's 32% is actually fairly respectable for being our worst 3PT shooter. It's still better than two of your starters, and they hardly ever attempted even one per game.

Lucky.
06-03-2015, 11:31 AM
Questions for Rochester:

1. How many minutes will your bench 3 point shooters play?

2. Do you think playing 4 on 5 offensively will cause you problems?

3. Jerusalem is the king of efficiency, how do you think your efficiency compares?

I'm leaning Jerusalem in 5, but I'll wait for a response to officially vote.

The three players on our bench that'll play the most minutes will be Dale Ellis, Dan Issel and Mike Bibby, who I actually feel much more comfortable playing now that I've seen his career H2H numbers against Nash. I'm not sure the point of this question that I've been asked a few times these playoffs. It's almost like you're trying to catch us in a trap. If we play our starters, no floor spacing (which isn't true), if we play our bench, we take minutes away from our starters. I'm going to play my bench just like any other team. But like any other playoff rotation, the starters will be seeing majority of the playing time. The point is, we have three really good shooters on the bench, and we will always have floor spacing on the court. Of our six perimeter players, our weakest one shot 32% from three.

No, it won't cause us problems because it won't be happening. If you take a look at our writeup, or even my latest reply to RR, you'll see how we feel about Bruce Bowen offensively. You can't leave him wide open like he's a cardboard box. Someone will always have to account for him. If he's left wide open, he will knock down shots. We're not talking about Ben Wallace here, we're talking about a guy that shot 44% from 3PT range one year. Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady and Chris Webber will find the open man. And like I mentioned in my reply to RR, what's wrong with Bowen being what Shane Battier was for the Heat? At a higher lever, of course.

Our one player with really poor efficiency is Bruce Bowen. The other players when you look at their prime year, are very overblown. Grant Hill and Alvin Robertson are not nearly as efficient as some are making them out to be. Alvin would not be more efficient than most, but I have Bruce Bowen (and I admit that) who is known to be a very poor FT shooter which inevitably lowers his TS%. Shaq is more efficient than Hakeem.

He has two very efficient players in Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki which certainly makes them look like the they're the king of efficiency. I'd be willing to bet they weren't the most efficient team in this RD. Jerusalem overall has more efficiency than us, but it's overblown how poor ours is when looking at prime numbers. It's a category that favors Jerusalem, but not something that I would say is an overwhelming advantage.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 12:49 PM
Hakeem may be one of 2 people who could actually outplay Shaq. Dirk would destroy Webber. Grant Hill is infinitely more valuable at the SF position. Robertson is perfect to play on their primary ball handler. And Nash can hide on Bowen. Jerusalem can also do it all offensively and defensively. They have no weaknesses.

I'm personally shocked Rochester is winning.

valade16
06-03-2015, 01:05 PM
Hakeem may be one of 2 people who could actually outplay Shaq. Dirk would destroy Webber. Grant Hill is infinitely more valuable at the SF position. Robertson is perfect to play on their primary ball handler. And Nash can hide on Bowen. Jerusalem can also do it all offensively and defensively. They have no weaknesses.

I'm personally shocked Rochester is winning.

How do you reconcile those opinions with the fact young Shaq virtually played Hakeem evenly in their Finals matchup and C-Webb consistently outplayed Dirk in his career including the playoffs?

Ebbs
06-03-2015, 01:16 PM
If we are going off peak prime, then my opinion is as followed:

Nash > Hardaway
Robertson > Bowen
Hill < McGrady
Nowitzki > Webber
Olajuwon > Shaq

McGrady is the only player on Rochester that has the advantage and it's not by much. Hill is definitely in the same ballpark as McGrady though.

The reason Olajuwon wins easily for me is in his peak he is the only player in NBA history to win DPOY, FMVP, and MVP in the same season. Not even Michael Jackson could make that claim. The 1995 finals just cements it for me.

:laugh: I'm 100% certain he couldn't.


Hakeem may be one of 2 people who could actually outplay Shaq. Dirk would destroy Webber. Grant Hill is infinitely more valuable at the SF position. Robertson is perfect to play on their primary ball handler. And Nash can hide on Bowen. Jerusalem can also do it all offensively and defensively. They have no weaknesses.

I'm personally shocked Rochester is winning.

I agree with most of this.


Twitter has Rochester winning 24-16 right now for those interested.

Ebbs
06-03-2015, 01:19 PM
KJ built a hell of a team. Maybe the best team to not win I've seen in the All-Time including my sexual Ewing-Dirk team.

But Dirk is a matchup nightmare, Hakeem holds his own against Shaq while he would lose the matchup he contains him.

Dirk or Hakeem get Finals MVP?

valade16
06-03-2015, 01:41 PM
KJ built a hell of a team. Maybe the best team to not win I've seen in the All-Time including my sexual Ewing-Dirk team.

But Dirk is a matchup nightmare, Hakeem holds his own against Shaq while he would lose the matchup he contains him.

Dirk or Hakeem get Finals MVP?

But why? I guess I'm asking everybody why they are discounting C-Webb and Dirk's actual head to head numbers?

Redrum187
06-03-2015, 02:19 PM
I think people need to go back and look at the numbers from the 95 Finals. Shaq lost to Hakeem because Hakeem's team dominated Shaq's team.

Hakeem: 44.8 MPG | 32.8 PPG | 11.5 RPG | 5.5 APG | 2.0 SPG | 2.0 BPG | 48.3% FG | 69.2% FT
Shaquille: 45.0 MPG | 28.0 PPG | 12.5 RPG | 6.3 APG | 0.3 SPG | 2.5 BPG | 59.5% FG | 55.7% FT

Doesn't seem like Hakeem really crushed Shaq, and to answer the question, yes Shaq got unquestionably better both on defense and offensively in his later years.

Also, if we're talking about head2head numbers, people would be interested to see this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=webbech01

It looks like C-Webb had pretty comparable numbers to Dirk (better, actually) when they played head to head. Yes one could argue Dirk wasn't in his absolute prime, but it's not like Dirk going into his prime would make these numbers look drastically different.

Hell, one could use those to argue C-Webb would be more efficient than Dirk in this series.

Hakeem's team consisted of Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Drexler, and Mario Ellie.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_finals.html

Of course the Houston Rockets (the team) beat Shaq/Hardaway/Magic, but Hakeem couldn't be stopped and when it mattered most at the end of games 1 and 3, Hakeem did work against Shaq.

Also, those weren't Dirk's prime years. As my previous point, it's convenient to use "baby Shaq" but then point out Webber and Dirk's h2h before his prime.

valade16
06-03-2015, 02:32 PM
Hakeem's team consisted of Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Drexler, and Mario Ellie.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_finals.html

Of course the Houston Rockets (the team) beat Shaq/Hardaway/Magic, but Hakeem couldn't be stopped and when it mattered most at the end of games 1 and 3, Hakeem did work against Shaq.

Also, those weren't Dirk's prime years. As my previous point, it's convenient to use "baby Shaq" but then point out Webber and Dirk's h2h before his prime.

I agree, but how different do you think the numbers would be? I don't see a C-Webb that shot over 50% both in the regular season and the playoffs against Dirk and scored just as much as Dirk while holding Dirk to below his normal efficiency would suddenly get decimated.

So my question is, given the head to head numbers you saw of Dirk and C-Webb, what do you envision their numbers looking like in this series with a prime Dirk?

valade16
06-03-2015, 02:37 PM
Hakeem's team consisted of Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Drexler, and Mario Ellie.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995_finals.html

Of course the Houston Rockets (the team) beat Shaq/Hardaway/Magic, but Hakeem couldn't be stopped and when it mattered most at the end of games 1 and 3, Hakeem did work against Shaq.

Well a 1st Ballot HOF Clyde Drexler is a pretty big supporting piece but consider how well everyone on the Rockets did that series:

Clyde: 21.5 PPG | 9.5 RPG | 6.8 APG
Horry: 17.8 PPG | 10.0 RPG | 3.8 APG | 3.0 SPG | 2.3 BPG
Elie: 16.3 PPG | 4.3 RPG | 3.3 APG | 2.0 SPG
Cassell: 14.3 PPG

Those are great numbers from a supporting cast. Compare that to Shaq's Magic, who outside of Penny and Horace, had virtually no help. Nick Anderson shot 36%. Dennis Scott shot 31%.

What was more impactful in that series?

Jets012
06-03-2015, 02:46 PM
Hakeem may be one of 2 people who could actually outplay Shaq. Dirk would destroy Webber. Grant Hill is infinitely more valuable at the SF position. Robertson is perfect to play on their primary ball handler. And Nash can hide on Bowen. Jerusalem can also do it all offensively and defensively. They have no weaknesses.

I'm personally shocked Rochester is winning.

However when there's actually evidence of those guys playing each other, Webber actually outplayed Dirk and a young Shaq arguably outplayed Hakeem. When you see the play styles and body types, it's not shocking. Dirk has never been recognized as a better than average defender and at times would struggle against a more athletic, stronger, perimeter based power forwards like Webber.

Again Robertson is giving up 4 inches to Penny and 5 inches to T-Mac. He's giving up muscle/speed to both as well. I don't care how amazing of a defender you are, that's going to play a huge role in your ability to slow down someone.

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2015, 04:12 PM
[emoji23] I'm 100% certain he couldn't.



I agree with most of this.


Twitter has Rochester winning 24-16 right now for those interested.
U post all the matchups on twitter?

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 04:31 PM
Hakeem may be one of 2 people who could actually outplay Shaq. Dirk would destroy Webber. Grant Hill is infinitely more valuable at the SF position. Robertson is perfect to play on their primary ball handler. And Nash can hide on Bowen. Jerusalem can also do it all offensively and defensively. They have no weaknesses.

I'm personally shocked Rochester is winning.

How do you reconcile those opinions with the fact young Shaq virtually played Hakeem evenly in their Finals matchup and C-Webb consistently outplayed Dirk in his career including the playoffs?

I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

Lucky.
06-03-2015, 04:43 PM
I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

He outscored Webber by two PPG while playing six more MPG on 44% shooting while Webber shot 51%. I understand Dirk had yet to be in his prime, but I believe you, as well as a few others are exaggerating the talent difference quite a bit.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 04:46 PM
I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

He outscored Webber by two PPG while playing six more MPG on 44% shooting while Webber shot 51%. I understand Dirk had yet to be in his prime, but I believe you, as well as a few others are exaggerating the talent difference quite a bit.

FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IS AN OUTDATED AND IGNORANT WAY TO COMPARE EFFICIENCY. Do you understand that?

valade16
06-03-2015, 04:47 PM
I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

By 2 PPG and Webber shot a vastly higher FG%.

No, I don't think those matchups compare to Dirk at his best, I'm asking what people think the discrepancy would be?

If you're going to tell me that early 00's Dirk played C-Webb fairly evenly but late 00's Dirk would eat C-Webb for lunch I just don't buy it.

To each his own though.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 04:49 PM
I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

By 2 PPG and Webber shot a vastly higher FG%.

No, I don't think those matchups compare to Dirk at his best, I'm asking what people think the discrepancy would be?

If you're going to tell me that early 00's Dirk played C-Webb fairly evenly but late 00's Dirk would eat C-Webb for lunch I just don't buy it.

To each his own though.

FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IS AN OUTDATED AND IGNORANT WAY TO COMPARE EFFICIENCY. Do you understand that?

valade16
06-03-2015, 05:00 PM
FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IS AN OUTDATED AND IGNORANT WAY TO COMPARE EFFICIENCY. Do you understand that?

THEY DIDN'T HAVE TS% FOR THEIR PLAYOFF STATS OR I'D HAVE USED THAT.

Regardless, C-Webb was as efficient (if not more so) than Dirk, which kind of hurts your argument.

C-Webb needed 18.0 FGA and 7.9 FTA to score 23.2 PPG
Dirk needed 19.5 FGA and 7.3 FTA to score 25.2 PPG

So his 2 more PPG came on 1.5 more FGA and .6 less FTA.

Are you really going to try and claim Dirk was way more efficient than C-Webb?

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 05:04 PM
FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IS AN OUTDATED AND IGNORANT WAY TO COMPARE EFFICIENCY. Do you understand that?

THEY DIDN'T HAVE TS% FOR THEIR PLAYOFF STATS OR I'D HAVE USED THAT.

Regardless, C-Webb was as efficient (if not more so) than Dirk, which kind of hurts your argument.

C-Webb needed 18.0 FGA and 7.9 FTA to score 23.2 PPG
Dirk needed 19.5 FGA and 7.3 FTA to score 25.2 PPG

So his 2 more PPG came on 1.5 more FGA and .6 less FTA.

Are you really going to try and claim that was way more efficient than C-Webb?

Let's chalk this up as one of the first times I felt the need to call strawman on someone. First of all an extra 1.33 pps is clearly more efficient so you and lucky are both blatantly using misleading stats. And 2 neither one of you had the guts to address the point that Dirk clearly was at his best yet.

valade16
06-03-2015, 05:12 PM
Let's chalk this up as one of the first times I felt the need to call strawman on someone. First of all an extra 1.33 pps is clearly more efficient so you and lucky are both blatantly using misleading stats. And 2 neither one of you had the guts to address the point that Dirk clearly was at his best yet.

How is it a strawman? You claimed Dirk would destroy C-Webb and I asked what you thought of the fact he didn't destroy him in their actual head to head matchups when they played and this was your response:

I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

Ok, Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs by a whopping 2 PPG on slightly higher efficiency. Say whatever you want, I don't think anyone would say someone who scores 25.2 PPG on 19.5 FGA is doing insanely better than the guy scoring 23.2 PPG on 18.0 FGA...

As for the part about Dirk not being at his peak I asked you what you thought the numbers would be and you didn't respond.

If you want to talk about how Dirk wasn't in his prime and discuss what you think his numbers would be, go ahead. I gave you that chance and you haven't taken it.

Don't call strawman on me, I'm responding to what you're writing, if you don't respond it's hard for me to address a point you dropped...

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2015, 05:15 PM
If Rochester wins, this is the 3rd time I remember Shaq winning this game.

valade16
06-03-2015, 05:21 PM
I also want to put the same argument back to you KoB about players not being in their prime.

Do you think Prime Dirk would win his matchup to a greater degree than Prime Shaq would win his matchup?

You can't use the Dirk wasn't in his prime argument when factoring in the head to head numbers without doing the same to Shaq/Hakeem.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 05:46 PM
Let's chalk this up as one of the first times I felt the need to call strawman on someone. First of all an extra 1.33 pps is clearly more efficient so you and lucky are both blatantly using misleading stats. And 2 neither one of you had the guts to address the point that Dirk clearly was at his best yet.

How is it a strawman? You claimed Dirk would destroy C-Webb and I asked what you thought of the fact he didn't destroy him in their actual head to head matchups when they played and this was your response:

I disagree that he played him even. I am old enough to have watched that series live.

Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs in spite of the fact that those matchups all happened before Dirk's peak. If Webber had to match up with him in the late 2000s? Do you honestly believe those matchups compare Dirk at his best?

Ok, Dirk outscored Webber in the playoffs by a whopping 2 PPG on slightly higher efficiency. Say whatever you want, I don't think anyone would say someone who scores 25.2 PPG on 19.5 FGA is doing insanely better than the guy scoring 23.2 PPG on 18.0 FGA...

As for the part about Dirk not being at his peak I asked you what you thought the numbers would be and you didn't respond.

If you want to talk about how Dirk wasn't in his prime and discuss what you think his numbers would be, go ahead. I gave you that chance and you haven't taken it.

Don't call strawman on me, I'm responding to what you're writing, if you don't respond it's hard for me to address a point you dropped...

I am actually mad now that I engaged you and I am stuck on my phone. You conceded Dirk outscored Webber in a higher efficiency. Now do you concede he wasn't even at his peak? At that point it is a no brainer who would win. Do you also concede that over the course of his career Webber played worse the higher the stakes? An all-time redraft final would bring out the worst in Cwebb

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 05:49 PM
I also want to put the same argument back to you KoB about players not being in their prime.

Do you think Prime Dirk would win his matchup to a greater degree than Prime Shaq would win his matchup?

You can't use the Dirk wasn't in his prime argument when factoring in the head to head numbers without doing the same to Shaq/Hakeem.

Do you believe Shaq took as long to reach his potential as Dirk?

valade16
06-03-2015, 05:58 PM
I am actually mad now that I engaged you and I am stuck on my phone. You conceded Dirk outscored Webber in a higher efficiency. Now do you concede he wasn't even at his peak? At that point it is a no brainer who would win. Do you also concede that over the course of his career Webber played worse the higher the stakes? An all-time redraft final would bring out the worst in Cwebb

LOL, I've been there.

higher efficiency sounds nice, but again, barely higher efficiency. My question is: win by how much? What numbers are we talking? I imagine KJ/Jets/etc. would live with Dirk outscoring C-Webb by 3-4 PPG considering how much the rest of his team is likely to outscore their counterparts.


Do you believe Shaq took as long to reach his potential as Dirk?

I'd say it's very comparable. Dirk won his MVP his 9th year in the league, Shaq his 8th.

I also think those were the best years for each player and their peaks were right around that time.

I don't think Shaq blended his offensive dominance, defensive effort and experience and conditioning until 99-01.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 06:06 PM
I am actually mad now that I engaged you and I am stuck on my phone. You conceded Dirk outscored Webber in a higher efficiency. Now do you concede he wasn't even at his peak? At that point it is a no brainer who would win. Do you also concede that over the course of his career Webber played worse the higher the stakes? An all-time redraft final would bring out the worst in Cwebb

LOL, I've been there.

higher efficiency sounds nice, but again, barely higher efficiency. My question is: win by how much? What numbers are we talking? I imagine KJ/Jets/etc. would live with Dirk outscoring C-Webb by 3-4 PPG considering how much the rest of his team is likely to outscore their counterparts.


Do you believe Shaq took as long to reach his potential as Dirk?

I'd say it's very comparable. Dirk won his MVP his 9th year in the league, Shaq his 8th.

I also think those were the best years for each player and their peaks were right around that time.

I don't think Shaq blended his offensive dominance, defensive effort and experience and conditioning until 99-01.

Honestly, and I concede this is pure conjecture on my part, I believe Dirk would outplay Webber handily. 24ppg to 18ppg maybe? And Dirk would be more consistent and efficient. I just truly believe at their absolute best with a title on the line that Dirk is significantly better. In regards to Shaq you bring up a fair point. I would argue Shaq hit his prime in year 2 and whereas Dirk took longer. Shaq's peak is tougher to pinpoint when year 2 and 3 were two of the highest scoring seasons of his whole career. My main point is that peak Shaq could still be played to a draw or a loss vs prime Hakeem.

Redrum187
06-03-2015, 06:21 PM
What's funny is that Rochester is using VORP and BPM to prove Hardaway is better than Steve Nash. If we are using VORP and BPM, Eddie Jones is better than Hardaway/Webber, Grant Hill is better than Webber/Hardaway, and Robertson is better than Hardaway/Webber. Those are terrible metrics to use to prove who is superior. How the hell do you compare 2 MVPs to 2 NBA First team selections? Is that the perfect metric to use, not necessarily, but it is more indicative of individual success and talent.

So please, tell me Eddie Jones is superior to Hardaway and Webber... if you really want to use BPM and VORP to prove superiority...

Redrum187
06-03-2015, 06:25 PM
I am seeing so much hypocritical comments about "baby Shaq" but Webber's h2h with Dirk is fair. Furthermore, mentioning Dirk's FG% as him being inferior (pre-prime at that) to Webber h2h is complete ignorance. Hypothetically, someone can shoot 25% from FG (1 of 4 shooting) but have an astrnomical TS%. Are we going to resort to using blocks per game and steals per game to prove the superior defensive player is too? :eyebrow:

Shaq's offensive game has NEVER changed. His output is virtually identical from year 2 to year 11... recheck the imagine I posted. You can "argue" his defense was better, but there is no legitimate evidence to that. Even so, Hakeem was superior defensively to Hakeem.

To say "it was baby Shaq", he'd light up Hakeem would be completely counter intuitive in that there was only 1 or 2 seasons he outscored his 94-95 ppg. Why wouldn't it skyrocket if he supposedly improved in his prime. He has an 11 year prime, that isn't a knock against him, that just shows he peaked in year 2 and sustained it for a decade...

Redrum187
06-03-2015, 06:31 PM
LOL, I've been there.

higher efficiency sounds nice, but again, barely higher efficiency. My question is: win by how much? What numbers are we talking? I imagine KJ/Jets/etc. would live with Dirk outscoring C-Webb by 3-4 PPG considering how much the rest of his team is likely to outscore their counterparts.



I'd say it's very comparable. Dirk won his MVP his 9th year in the league, Shaq his 8th.

I also think those were the best years for each player and their peaks were right around that time.

I don't think Shaq blended his offensive dominance, defensive effort and experience and conditioning until 99-01.

Proof that his offense was virtually equal from year 2 to year 11....

From 99-02 (which you claim he improved in all facets of the game), he averaged 28.6 ppg.
From 93-96 (which I claim is the same offensive output as year 2-11), he averaged 28.6 ppg. (he was actually more efficient in these years to top it off)

One can argue he got better defensively because defense is completely subjective. There is no evidence of that. Even using ORtg and DRtg (which I don't think is a legitimate and viable metric to use) says those years were about equal.

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2015, 06:32 PM
If Rochester wins, this is the 3rd time I remember Shaq winning this game.

wouldn't it also be the first back-to-back winner of a psd nba game? I don't remember there being one.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2015, 07:36 PM
wouldn't it also be the first back-to-back winner of a psd nba game? I don't remember there being one.

No clue. I forgot who won last year.

Sadds The Gr8
06-03-2015, 07:36 PM
No clue. I forgot who won last year.
Lucky and kj...

Raps08-09 Champ
06-03-2015, 08:26 PM
I suppose it'd be first time they won the same game back to back. But maybe other people have won with multiple games (say redraft from NBA and NFL or something).

Shammyguy3
06-03-2015, 09:05 PM
as much as i'd like to vote Rochester I think Jerusalem would win this series

tredigs
06-03-2015, 09:25 PM
Was already leaning Jerusalem, and the more impressive write-up seals it.

PraiseJesus
06-03-2015, 09:27 PM
Was already leaning Jerusalem, and the more impressive write-up seals it.

Kyrie vs Curry showdown

valade16
06-04-2015, 09:46 AM
I am seeing so much hypocritical comments about "baby Shaq" but Webber's h2h with Dirk is fair. Furthermore, mentioning Dirk's FG% as him being inferior (pre-prime at that) to Webber h2h is complete ignorance. Hypothetically, someone can shoot 25% from FG (1 of 4 shooting) but have an astrnomical TS%. Are we going to resort to using blocks per game and steals per game to prove the superior defensive player is too? :eyebrow:

Shaq's offensive game has NEVER changed. His output is virtually identical from year 2 to year 11... recheck the imagine I posted. You can "argue" his defense was better, but there is no legitimate evidence to that. Even so, Hakeem was superior defensively to Hakeem.

To say "it was baby Shaq", he'd light up Hakeem would be completely counter intuitive in that there was only 1 or 2 seasons he outscored his 94-95 ppg. Why wouldn't it skyrocket if he supposedly improved in his prime. He has an 11 year prime, that isn't a knock against him, that just shows he peaked in year 2 and sustained it for a decade...

1st Bolded: Too bad that hypothetically isn't the case here. Dirk scored 25.2 PPG on 19.5 FGA per game (1.292 PPS). C-Webb scored 23.2 PPG on 18.0 FGA (1.288 PPS). Anyway you slice it their scoring output per shot was damn near equal.

2nd Bolded: You keep bringing up how much Hakeem and Dirk elevated their games in the playoffs and don't extend the same courtesy to Shaq. Yes his output was virtually identical years 2 through 11 in the regular season, but he definitely took it up a notch in the postseason later in his career:

Year 2-4: 26.0 PPG | 11.1 RPG | 1.7 BPG
Year 7-9: 29.9 PPG | 14.5 RPG | 2.4 BPG

So yes, LAL 3PT Shaq would do better against Hakeem in the playoffs than young Orlando Shaq did.

Also, Shaq's defense was clearly better in his later years, his only 3 All-D teams were during the Laker 3-peat and he led the league in DWS in 99-00 and playoff DWS in 99-00 and 00-01.


There's just no way you can point to Dirk not being in his prime to explain away his numbers against C-Webb and not extend the same courtesy to Shaq/Hakeem.

The only question is, who do you think would dominate who more? Prime Dirk over C-Webb or Prime Shaq over Hakeem?

Redrum187
06-04-2015, 12:48 PM
Well, I don't see how Webber would dominate in the postseason when he's never been able to do that at any time in his career. I think it would be silly to pretend Webber is in the same league as Dirk Nowitzki when speaking especially of the postseason in their respective primes. Which prime year (or non-prime year for that matter) has he dominated? In his 5 year prime he had a terrible .514 TS%... In his 5 year playoff prime, he had a TS% of .487. Rochester can't just sweep that under the rug and hoke a pre-prime regular season h2h with Dirk makes them equal. Since they like to use DRtg/ORtg, BPM, and VORP, prime Chris Webber had a DRtg of 103 and ORtg of 101... he was a negative! In fact, out of his entire 10 years in the postseason, only 3 did he have a higher ORtg than he did DRtg.

KnicksorBust
06-04-2015, 12:51 PM
Jerusalem took their first shots at Rochester a month ago... :laugh:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?889660-Power-Rankings&p=29918142#post29918142

Redrum187
06-04-2015, 01:00 PM
I also don't think Rochester should be let off the hook for the Nash and Hardaway PG match up. Nash is a legitimate floor general who makes his team better. In 3 of his 5 year prime, he led the league in assist/game, in 2 of the 5 years prime he led the league in TS% and AST%, in 4 of the 5 years playoff prime he led the league in assists/game, and 3 of the 5 years playoff prime he led the league playoff AST%.

They mentioned 5 games where Hardaway led the league in WS/48 as if that was a big enough sample size to sustain... So it was a blessing for Rochester that Hardaway/Magic got destroyed in 5 games in the 1st round of the playoffs so they can use this accolade to promote him as better than Nash. :eyebrow:

Redrum187
06-04-2015, 01:38 PM
Let's not act like Alvin Robertson was some efficient monster. He was, indeed, more efficient than Bowen though.

http://i57.tinypic.com/fz6oie.jpg

If Alvin Robertson's playoff prime .574 TS% (scoring 20.2 ppg) is not considered efficient by your standards, then what do you make of McGrady's (.541 TS%), Chris Webber's (.487 TS%), and Bowen's (.486 TS%) efficiency? He was also more efficient than Shaq and Hardaway! The guy you say is not some efficient monster had a higher than anyone on Rochester's starting lineup!

I think this should further separate Alvin's talent from Bowens... You think Bowen was the better defender, I think Robertson and his DPOY was a better defender, we can say it's equal for arguments sake, but Robertson is tremendously superior offensively than Bowen.

Ebbs
06-04-2015, 08:41 PM
U post all the matchups on twitter?

only a couple.


Jerusalem took their first shots at Rochester a month ago... :laugh:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?889660-Power-Rankings&p=29918142#post29918142

well played.

Shammyguy3
06-04-2015, 09:04 PM
still lots of time left for this matchup

valade16
06-05-2015, 12:49 PM
Redrum seems to have addressed all the points against him and I haven't heard a lot of argument from Rochester. I'm leaning Jerusalem.

Shammyguy3
06-05-2015, 07:31 PM
just under 24 hours

Ebbs
06-06-2015, 04:31 PM
wouldn't it also be the first back-to-back winner of a psd nba game? I don't remember there being one.

Nope.

The GOAT did it once.

Catfish beat MHC in the NBA mock then he and MHC teamed up the next year and beat me. (By teamed up I mean MHC piggy backed CF's greatness.)

My team should've won though.

The greatest team to not win ever.


just under 24 hours

long matchup holy ****.

MFFL==FML
06-06-2015, 04:44 PM
I can't vote in this app, please cast and count my vote for Jerusalem. They win in 5 games.

Lucky.
06-06-2015, 05:22 PM
Congratulations, Redrum. Built one helluva team.

Shammyguy3
06-06-2015, 06:03 PM
one hour left with a 6 vote lead counting MFFL's vote

Lucky.
06-06-2015, 07:00 PM
After looking more into it, it just now hit me. I gotta hand it to you Redrum, I'm not even upset, it's brilliant actually. There's been a few that have done it, but I don't think anyone has thought of doing it the way you were able to. So very close to being foolproof ;)

Bravo :clap:

As for me, this was more than likely my last game. I enjoyed playing with all of you, but these games just aren't the same anymore. If they ever manage to make a comeback, I'll be there.

Redrum187
06-06-2015, 07:14 PM
I appreciate the kind words. You guys built a great team too. Good game guys!

Raps08-09 Champ
06-06-2015, 09:22 PM
Rigged.

Lucky.
06-06-2015, 09:25 PM
I really wasn't going to get into this, I was actually just going to let it go. But if this is indeed my last game, I'd like to go out with a bang.

I'd like to start it off by saying that this:


After looking more into it, it just now hit me. I gotta hand it to you Redrum, I'm not even upset, it's brilliant actually. There's been a few that have done it, but I don't think anyone has thought of doing it the way you were able to. So very close to being foolproof ;)

Bravo :clap:

Is not a compliment to the team Redrum built, but rather a compliment to how smart Redrum was with his ability to fool everyone, including myself until it came clear to me what really happened.

You see, Redrum and MFFL are the same person. I know, crazy twist right?

It all started when I made a comment to KJ and Jets, my two CO-GM's. I jokingly said that MFFL must be RR's dupe. I mean, after all, he did trade RR Grant Hill and Dirk Nowitzki and then went on to praise RR's team for the rest of the game as if he was unbeatable. Whatever, right? People make stupid trades all the time. And then I became curious, so I looked at MFFL's post history. I found that he doesn't post a whole lot. I also found out that he's not quite as stupid as his trade's would make you believe, I mean, he did make it to a finals before in an NBA PSD game. Take a look for yourselves: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?756141-Mavs-Forum-ReDraft-FINALS-Death-Row-Channel-4-News-Team-Please-vote

In this thread, if you read a little bit, will show you that MFFL (or rather RR) cheated (Thank you, Lenkey![Vets of these games will know what I'm talking about]). After this thread, MFFL didn't post again on PSD for three years. Funny enough, the only reason I caught onto this next part is the fact that RR is showing off his fake championship in his sig.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?886597-Mock-Trade-Game-(Championship)-San-Antonio-vs-Cleveland

If you read this thread, and this is the real kicker, I actually laughed. MFFL just so happens to make his first appearance, and post, since he got caught cheating three years ago. You'll also notice that RR just so happened to win with six users that had five or less posts (not sure why the 100 post count rule wasn't being used). Once again, RR robbed a championship. This time from UTB. It took six dupes (seven if you count MFFL) to barely sneak by winning by two votes.



Jerusalem took their first shots at Rochester a month ago... :laugh:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?889660-Power-Rankings&p=29918142#post29918142

That he did. With all due respect to the other teams, you made some great teams (I would have voted for Sadds in the finals had he made it), but RR knew we would be his toughest foe. It's also no coincidence that MFFL voted against us in every match-up, including our 1 vs 8 match-up where MFFL was the only one to vote for Meereen. You vote against us in a 1 vs 8 match-up but it takes you until the last day to vote for us against the best team in the game? Asking for arguments every match-up only to inevitably vote for the opposing team.

One more little tidbit, isn't it funny how MFFL has yet to actually vote in a poll? Always stating who he's voted for in the thread but not actually voting. Neither has RR. He never even voted for "GM's vote here"

You got a lot smarter from the time you firstly cheated. I'll give you that.

There's no concrete evidence here due to the fact that somehow none of the dupes share the same IP. For that reason, I'm expecting some to call me petty, a sore loser, but that's fine. This is my last game after all. I don't even care if it gets overturned and I win. Winning isn't even my goal here. I just want everyone to know you're a fraud. And I believe I've shown that if anyone with half a brain reads this. If not, that's still A-Okay with me. I just want you to know, that I know that you're a fraud.

Throughout my time in these games, I never once raged. I always kept quiet. Never once complained. I've lost in the finals before to Ebbs (tip of the hat to you, sir) and never complained. I was voted last in the NFL RD when I clearly wasn't the worst team, which eventually cost me a playoff spot. Never complained. For those of you that knows all this is true, knows I'm serious here with my accusations and not just trying to win.

And don't bother saying I take this too seriously or care too much about these games. This took me 10, 15 minutes tops to figure out. I certainly don't care as much as you, as I would never cheat.

If this is my last game, I'm going out with a bang. You can consider this my write-up.

Lucky.
06-06-2015, 09:31 PM
Rigged.

It's hilarious that you posted this right before me. Great timing there.

unleashthebeast
06-06-2015, 09:35 PM
Well this should be interesting :)

xxplayerxx23
06-06-2015, 09:42 PM
Grab some popcorn

Redrum187
06-06-2015, 11:35 PM
Rofl... that is hilarious... dupes aye ;) Let me guess... I am I also all the players I made trades with? Am I all 18 people that voted for Jerusalem? Seriously... that is ridiculous. :laugh:

Furthermore, Shammy checked the IP's of the players with under 100 posts, none of them were dupes. Also, my power went out in one of the rounds. I kik'd MFFL to sent Shammy my write up. If we were the same, wouldn't I just send Shammy the write up myself? I get that you are upset you lost, but relax a bit...

Redrum187
06-06-2015, 11:41 PM
I also voted in the first round... I decided not to vote in any other rounds as to not affect the outcome of who I'd potentially vote for....

I am on my desktop, create a poll and I'll gladly show you I am capable of voting. :laugh:

Redrum187
06-06-2015, 11:45 PM
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/poll.php?pollid=54640&do=showresults

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/poll.php?pollid=54625&do=showresults

Two of the times I voted in the first round. Now take your loss and stop b**ching. :laugh:

Lakers + Giants
06-07-2015, 12:27 AM
Damn, if true, that explains why RR made most of his trades and mostly raped only MFFL.

:laugh2:

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 12:35 AM
None of the trades with him were veto'd...

Lakers + Giants
06-07-2015, 12:37 AM
I said if true.

And they shouldve been imo.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 12:40 AM
I said if true.

And they shouldve been imo.

Not at all. You're mistaking MFFL for theGhostisgone. I got Alvin Robertson and Eddie Jones from him. I'm sure Lucky will accuse me of being Ghost too... I'm surprised he doesn't think I'm Shammy for having allowed under 100 posters cast a vote. :eyebrow:

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 06:23 AM
Rofl... that is hilarious... dupes aye ;) Let me guess... I am I also all the players I made trades with? Am I all 18 people that voted for Jerusalem? Seriously... that is ridiculous. :laugh:

Furthermore, Shammy checked the IP's of the players with under 100 posts, none of them were dupes. Also, my power went out in one of the rounds. I kik'd MFFL to sent Shammy my write up. If we were the same, wouldn't I just send Shammy the write up myself? I get that you are upset you lost, but relax a bit...

It's actually pretty easy to hide your IP if you know what you're doing. And I'm not upset, I'm actually enjoying this more than I would winning, I think.

Because the IP's of the multiple dupes you made to beat UTB don't match, there's nothing Shammy can do as commissioner, and that's fine. I knew that going in here to post this. But at the very least, it'll make some GM's realize in future games. Shammy will keep a close eye on you in future games.


http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/poll.php?pollid=54640&do=showresults

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/poll.php?pollid=54625&do=showresults

Two of the times I voted in the first round. Now take your loss and stop b**ching. :laugh:

This is hardly the main argument against you here. There's a reason I said it was a little tidbit.


I'm comfortable in saying that majority of people that will read through the links I provided to go with the details I listed, will get an idea. I've already had users agree with me through PM.

xxplayerxx23
06-07-2015, 09:13 AM
I never understood some of those awful trades this would explain it lol. Don't know if true but those trades were absolutely terrible lol

theGhost-isGone
06-07-2015, 11:27 AM
Not at all. You're mistaking MFFL for theGhostisgone. I got Alvin Robertson and Eddie Jones from him. I'm sure Lucky will accuse me of being Ghost too... I'm surprised he doesn't think I'm Shammy for having allowed under 100 posters cast a vote. :eyebrow:

been around for a while, just cuz I'm a first time player I'm a dupe? Laughable

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 12:15 PM
been around for a while, just cuz I'm a first time player I'm a dupe? Laughable

Well, I'd have them check your IP so they can tell we are from 2 different states, but he'll just say I'm a computer wiz who can change my IP to any location I want. Not worth responding to him when he is clearly just wanting to make noise after losing.

Shammyguy3
06-07-2015, 12:17 PM
The IP addresses of those in question do not match up. I think this is something that is impossible to prove one way or another because of that. In future games though, we'll be keeping a closer eye on trades, past history, etc. For anyone that has cheated in this game (not saying that there definitely was), cheated on a game in the past, or plans to cheat on a game in the future: i ask you this.... Why? It's a ****ing fantasy game for ***** and giggles to debate/discuss basketball.

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 12:35 PM
The IP addresses of those in question do not match up. I think this is something that is impossible to prove one way or another because of that. In future games though, we'll be keeping a closer eye on trades, past history, etc. For anyone that has cheated in this game (not saying that there definitely was), cheated on a game in the past, or plans to cheat on a game in the future: i ask you this.... Why? It's a ****ing fantasy game for ***** and giggles to debate/discuss basketball.

As expected and completely understandable. No complaints here.

But for those that are still viewing this thread, answer this. Can you honestly say that RR/MFFL, at the very least, didn't cheat against UTB? If you want to say that it was just coincidence after coincidence, after coincidence when it came to MFFL, that's fine. If you want to say that it was coincidence that MFFL made his very first post on PSD in three years after being disqualified for cheating, fine. But when you look at this poll: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/poll.php?pollid=54275&do=showresults

Can you honestly say, that with not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, BUT 6 accounts were made, all of which voting for Redrum and then never returning to PSD, that he didn't cheat against UTB? Use logic, people.

If 3 GM's in this game, not including MFFL and Redrum, can tell me they honestly don't believe Redrum cheated at any point, I'll drop this entire discussion, apologize to Redrum and never bring it up again.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 12:46 PM
As expected and completely understandable. No complaints here.

But for those that are still viewing this thread, answer this. Can you honestly say that RR/MFFL, at the very least, didn't cheat against UTB? If you want to say that it was just coincidence after coincidence, after coincidence when it came to MFFL, that's fine. If you want to say that it was coincidence that MFFL made his very first post on PSD in three years after being disqualified for cheating, fine. But when you look at this poll: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/poll.php?pollid=54275&do=showresults

Can you honestly say, that with not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, BUT 6 accounts were made, all of which voting for Redrum and then never returning to PSD, that he didn't cheat against UTB? Use logic, people.

If 3 GM's in this game, not including MFFL and Redrum, can tell me they honestly don't believe Redrum cheated at any point, I'll drop this entire discussion, apologize to Redrum and never bring it up again.

Lies. If 3 GM's said that, you'd just accuse them of being my "other" dupes. How could I prove I'm NOT the other 3 GMs since IPs mean absolutely nothing to you? It's really easy to make unfounded accusations, but you have to admit it's impossible for me to prove otherwise.

You could accuse me of being Shammy and allowing myself to win by allowing the votes of posters with less than 100. How could I prove otherwise?

So far, your only "evidence" (if you want to call it that), is that I "trade raped people" and that they didn't voted for you. Solid proof... :eyebrow:

If you would have put this much fight into the match up, maybe your team might of won.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 12:49 PM
It's hilarious that you posted this right before me. Great timing there.

Well I was just joking but didn't think you'd go off.

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 01:15 PM
Lies. If 3 GM's said that, you'd just accuse them of being my "other" dupes. How could I prove I'm NOT the other 3 GMs since IPs mean absolutely nothing to you? It's really easy to make unfounded accusations, but you have to admit it's impossible for me to prove otherwise.

You could accuse me of being Shammy and allowing myself to win by allowing the votes of posters with less than 100. How could I prove otherwise?

So far, your only "evidence" (if you want to call it that), is that I "trade raped people" and that they didn't voted for you. Solid proof... :eyebrow:

If you would have put this much fight into the match up, maybe your team might of won.

I promise you I won't. I've played these games long enough to know everyone that participated in this game a decent amount. The UTB match-up is what gets me the most. The only reason people didn't make a big deal out of it is because ti was just a Bulls forum game rather than a main forum game. No one gets out of that without criticism if that happens in one of the main games.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 01:21 PM
I promise you I won't. I've played these games long enough to know everyone that participated in this game a decent amount. The UTB match-up is what gets me the most. The only reason people didn't make a big deal out of it is because ti was just a Bulls forum game rather than a main forum game. No one gets out of that without criticism if that happens in one of the main games.

Okay, and out of the 17 other people who voted for me: which one had under 100? which one don't you know? which would do you suspect could be me?

Also, you're not answering me. Do you admit it's impossible for me to prove I'm not Shammy if you or anyone accused me of it (for allowing under 100 vote count)?

Sadds The Gr8
06-07-2015, 01:25 PM
I really wasn't going to get into this, I was actually just going to let it go. But if this is indeed my last game, I'd like to go out with a bang.

I'd like to start it off by saying that this:



Is not a compliment to the team Redrum built, but rather a compliment to how smart Redrum was with his ability to fool everyone, including myself until it came clear to me what really happened.

You see, Redrum and MFFL are the same person. I know, crazy twist right?

It all started when I made a comment to KJ and Jets, my two CO-GM's. I jokingly said that MFFL must be RR's dupe. I mean, after all, he did trade RR Grant Hill and Dirk Nowitzki and then went on to praise RR's team for the rest of the game as if he was unbeatable. Whatever, right? People make stupid trades all the time. And then I became curious, so I looked at MFFL's post history. I found that he doesn't post a whole lot. I also found out that he's not quite as stupid as his trade's would make you believe, I mean, he did make it to a finals before in an NBA PSD game. Take a look for yourselves: http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?756141-Mavs-Forum-ReDraft-FINALS-Death-Row-Channel-4-News-Team-Please-vote

In this thread, if you read a little bit, will show you that MFFL (or rather RR) cheated (Thank you, Lenkey![Vets of these games will know what I'm talking about]). After this thread, MFFL didn't post again on PSD for three years. Funny enough, the only reason I caught onto this next part is the fact that RR is showing off his fake championship in his sig.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?886597-Mock-Trade-Game-(Championship)-San-Antonio-vs-Cleveland

If you read this thread, and this is the real kicker, I actually laughed. MFFL just so happens to make his first appearance, and post, since he got caught cheating three years ago. You'll also notice that RR just so happened to win with six users that had five or less posts (not sure why the 100 post count rule wasn't being used). Once again, RR robbed a championship. This time from UTB. It took six dupes (seven if you count MFFL) to barely sneak by winning by two votes.




That he did. With all due respect to the other teams, you made some great teams (I would have voted for Sadds in the finals had he made it), but RR knew we would be his toughest foe. It's also no coincidence that MFFL voted against us in every match-up, including our 1 vs 8 match-up where MFFL was the only one to vote for Meereen. You vote against us in a 1 vs 8 match-up but it takes you until the last day to vote for us against the best team in the game? Asking for arguments every match-up only to inevitably vote for the opposing team.

One more little tidbit, isn't it funny how MFFL has yet to actually vote in a poll? Always stating who he's voted for in the thread but not actually voting. Neither has RR. He never even voted for "GM's vote here"

You got a lot smarter from the time you firstly cheated. I'll give you that.

There's no concrete evidence here due to the fact that somehow none of the dupes share the same IP. For that reason, I'm expecting some to call me petty, a sore loser, but that's fine. This is my last game after all. I don't even care if it gets overturned and I win. Winning isn't even my goal here. I just want everyone to know you're a fraud. And I believe I've shown that if anyone with half a brain reads this. If not, that's still A-Okay with me. I just want you to know, that I know that you're a fraud.

Throughout my time in these games, I never once raged. I always kept quiet. Never once complained. I've lost in the finals before to Ebbs (tip of the hat to you, sir) and never complained. I was voted last in the NFL RD when I clearly wasn't the worst team, which eventually cost me a playoff spot. Never complained. For those of you that knows all this is true, knows I'm serious here with my accusations and not just trying to win.

And don't bother saying I take this too seriously or care too much about these games. This took me 10, 15 minutes tops to figure out. I certainly don't care as much as you, as I would never cheat.

If this is my last game, I'm going out with a bang. You can consider this my write-up.
Hooooooollyyyyyyyyyy shittttttt :laugh2: i definitely believe u lol.

JNA17
06-07-2015, 01:35 PM
I have to admit, Lucky presented some interesting evidence there. :laugh2:

I'll grab the popcorn! :D

Sadds The Gr8
06-07-2015, 01:39 PM
I have to admit, Lucky presented some interesting evidence there. :laugh2:

I'll grab the popcorn! :D
After taking 5 mins to review the trades thread, I 100% believe lucky. It's really obvious after looking at the trades. Lucky is a genius lol


Idc about dq'ing him, I just find mysterious things like this interesting to find out

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 02:27 PM
I did lol at the fact that he stoppped posting for 3 years and there was coincedentally guys who voted for him with no posts before.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 02:27 PM
Show us the PMs about the trade discussion.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 02:29 PM
I change my vote to Rochester.

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 02:32 PM
Okay, and out of the 17 other people who voted for me: which one had under 100? which one don't you know? which would do you suspect could be me?

Also, you're not answering me. Do you admit it's impossible for me to prove I'm not Shammy if you or anyone accused me of it (for allowing under 100 vote count)?

For one, all it takes is you asking one person to vote for you or make one dupe for it to be considered cheating. Second, if you and MFFL are indeed the same person, you cheated by trading with yourself, not voting for yourself (although you would have technically done that too). I want three people that participated in the ATRD as a GM. If three people step up and speak their mind and say they are 100% convinced you did nothing wrong, I'll back off and apologize.

Technically, yes. You're correct. But no one is accusing you of being Shammy or anyone else other than MFFL or the dupes you made in your match-up against UTB. Again, if three people step up and say they believe you 100% did nothing wrong, I won't argue otherwise. I trust that you wouldn't care enough to make that many dupes over the years. And if you did, then you can have your championship, at that point you deserve it :laugh2:

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 02:37 PM
Show us the PMs about the trade discussion.

http://i61.tinypic.com/o71201.jpg

Mostly did discussions on chatzy/kik as well. If anyone thinks I photoshopped the dates, I can temporarily change password and give it to shammy to verify it really is in my inbox. That is, assuming you believe I'm not really Shammy either.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 02:39 PM
We need the chatzies too man.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 02:47 PM
We need the chatzies too man.

http://i60.tinypic.com/zladz5.jpg

I don't have the chatzy links of every player I talked to. I would typically use one chatzy per player (Valade and I had our own for example), but I had to clean out my box because it was filled and people couldn't send me/counter offers.

What difference does it make anyways? I showed you undeniable proof that there was PM trade discussions. It's not uncommon for people to talk trade on chatzy/kik.

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 02:50 PM
All seriousness aside, dat Kareem offer doe...

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 02:52 PM
http://i60.tinypic.com/zladz5.jpg

I don't have the chatzy links of every player I talked to. I would typically use one chatzy per player (Valade and I had our own for example), but I had to clean out my box because it was filled and people couldn't send me/counter offers.

What difference does it make anyways? I showed you undeniable proof that there was PM trade discussions. It's not uncommon for people to talk trade on chatzy/kik.

If you deleted it, go on the MFFL account and check if the link is there.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 02:54 PM
If you deleted it, go on the MFFL account and check if the link is there.

Cute :P

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 02:55 PM
There is also this.

http://i61.tinypic.com/wlu7hi.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/20auzhs.jpg

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 02:57 PM
All seriousness aside, dat Kareem offer doe...

lol :P

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 03:17 PM
There is also this.


http://i57.tinypic.com/20auzhs.jpg

I understand you're trying to defender yourself, but using this when he dropped a player that had no business being dropped, only for you to pick that player up literally one minute after he dropped him, who you later traded for Alvin Robertson (I believe?) isn't the most convincing.

Like I said, I know you're trying to defend yourself but look at it from our angle.

Sadds The Gr8
06-07-2015, 03:27 PM
Iguodala was dropped then added 1 min later :laugh:

Raps08-09 Champ
06-07-2015, 03:35 PM
Did that really happen? LOL.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 03:36 PM
DeMarcus Cousins was dropped within the same minute I picked him up. Valade tried to get him seconds after I picked him up. Does that mean me and/or Valade are also L+G?

I informed him that he had to drop one by 2 ET BECAUSE I wanted one of his players; I wasn't trying to be a nice guy. It would make sense I'd scout the drop thread to pick up one of: Tony Parker, Kevin Love, Andre Iguodala, LaMarcus Aldridge.

Similarly, L+G was talking about dropping Cousins, I went in and got him the same minute he was dropped. Did I do something wrong here?

How is my capitalizing on trades (what we are suppose to do as GMs) and picking up quality drops any credible indication of dupe accounts? If I only traded with MFFL, okay, I can see your view point better. I didn't even get the best deals from him. I got Nash for Tony Parker... Eddie Jones + Alvin Robertson for Kawhi/Iggy/Van Lier. Those trades put me over the top...

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 03:42 PM
DeMarcus Cousins was dropped within the same minute I picked him up. Valade tried to get him seconds after I picked him up. Does that mean me and/or Valade are also L+G?

I informed him that he had to drop one by 2 ET BECAUSE I wanted one of his players; I wasn't trying to be a nice guy. It would make sense I'd scout the drop thread to pick up one of: Tony Parker, Kevin Love, Andre Iguodala, LaMarcus Aldridge.

Similarly, L+G was talking about dropping Cousins, I went in and got him the same minute he was dropped. Did I do something wrong here?

How is my capitalizing on trades (what we are suppose to do as GMs) and picking up quality drops any credible indication of dupe accounts?

If L+G was talking about dropping someone, then you would know he was about to be dropped. Similar to how I said in the chatzy I was dropping Steve Smith. I don't ever recall MFFL being in the chatzy, I may be wrong on that though. How did you know the exact time he'd drop him? Unless you were just refreshing the page over and over again. If that's the case, more power to you.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 03:43 PM
I understand you're trying to defender yourself, but using this when he dropped a player that had no business being dropped, only for you to pick that player up literally one minute after he dropped him, who you later traded for Alvin Robertson (I believe?) isn't the most convincing.

Like I said, I know you're trying to defend yourself but look at it from our angle.

I see it from your angle. It's unfortunate for him and anyone that couldn't capitalize on his misfortune.

You mention Alvin Robertson, he was owned by Dhop, then by Ghost. Am I not suppose to make any offer I can to acquire the player I really wanted? Why is trading with Ghost bad? Do you think I'm him too?

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 03:47 PM
If L+G was talking about dropping someone, then you would know he was about to be dropped. Similar to how I said in the chatzy I was dropping Steve Smith. I don't ever recall MFFL being in the chatzy, I may be wrong on that though. How did you know the exact time he'd drop him? Unless you were just refreshing the page over and over again. If that's the case, more power to you.

I said it in the main chatzy I was refreshing every 5 minutes an hour or two near the deadline. I was expecting people (L+G and MFFL) would have to either make a trade or drop players. Hence, I fully expected them to do it without knowing exactly win. I was actually faster at getting L+G's player than I was MFFL. This doesn't mean L+G and I colluded... in fact, he voted against me twice in these matchups. Of course you could make the argument, "you are really L+G. Just because you have different IP's doesn't mean anything. You also voted against yourself because you knew you'd win and it would throw people off as to not suspect you're really L+G!" In which case I say, go ahead and wear your tin foil hat...

Lucky.
06-07-2015, 03:48 PM
How is my capitalizing on trades (what we are suppose to do as GMs) and picking up quality drops any credible indication of dupe accounts? If I only traded with MFFL, okay, I can see your view point better. I didn't even get the best deals from him. I got Nash for Tony Parker... Eddie Jones + Alvin Robertson for Kawhi/Iggy/Van Lier. Those trades put me over the top...

If you are indeed innocent, for one, I would feel terrible to put this on you. I hope you know that. I wouldn't do this unless I truly felt that there was something going on.

Now if you are innocent, again, look at it from our point of view. With the links I provided, with the details I showed, you can't honestly tell me there's nothing here that has to make you kind of tilt your head. Between the brand new accounts voting for UTB and then never showing up again (Broncos fan said he came for the Broncos forum, I'm a Broncos fan, he never showed). MFFL taking a three year hiatus only to show up when your match-up goes up in the Bulls game? Hyping your team up the exact way he as in this game?

I actually really have to go all of a sudden, but you get the point of where I'm going.

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 03:55 PM
If you are indeed innocent, for one, I would feel terrible to put this on you. I hope you know that. I wouldn't do this unless I truly felt that there was something going on.

Now if you are innocent, again, look at it from our point of view. With the links I provided, with the details I showed, you can't honestly tell me there's nothing here that has to make you kind of tilt your head. Between the brand new accounts voting for UTB and then never showing up again (Broncos fan said he came for the Broncos forum, I'm a Broncos fan, he never showed). MFFL taking a three year hiatus only to show up when your match-up goes up in the Bulls game? Hyping your team up the exact way he as in this game?

I actually really have to go all of a sudden, but you get the point of where I'm going.

I honestly don't care about MFFL's past, or BroncoFan, or anyone else. You can't say that because players liked my team, it gives credence that I'm duping. Hell, Ebbs talked my team up like crazy; I know people were talking about how he and I are the same person in chatzy. No... we aren't the same person either... I don't care if my team was strikingly similar to Ebb's, I don't care what MFFL did or didn't do, I don't care if Bronco's fan came back or not... all that is irrelevant to me!

Your only suspicions for directly ME are that I made trades with multiple people (as I do every redraft I've been apart of) and won the deal, and that I picked up DeMarcus Cousins as well as Iggy almost immediately after they were dropped (by different people). Sure, I can see some suspicion in that, but not suspicion of dupe accounts. At worst, I'd ask L+G and MFFL if they went against the spirit of the game and dropped them so that I could intentionally pick them up. In which case, I can 100% speak for them, no they did not! They didn't tell me WHEN they were going to drop them (or in MFFL's case, which player he'd drop), I checked the drop thread as the deadline approached.

Can you see it from my point of view?

Redrum187
06-07-2015, 04:00 PM
Also, I was asked to show proof of PM conversations... Done... I went further and showed VMs where I was discussing trade and informing MFFL that he had to drop an active player (so I can steal any of his good players that he dropped). No comment about that? I actually have verifiable proof, not just unfounded accusations... surely you can admit this gives me, at the very least, some credibility?

My evidence

1.) Different IP's. (verified)
2.) We were logged in at the same time. (verified)
3.) We had private messaging discussions (as well as chatzy/kik). (verified)
4.) I left multiple visitor messages for him. (verified)

Your evidence

1.) You "trade raped" multiple people (least of which was MFFL).
2.) Players under 100 posts voted for you in a different redraft (Shammy was the one that counted them and Shammy let a person with under 100 posts GM the Golden State Warriors... your issue isn't with me on this.)
3.) He liked your team. (No *******, so did everyone else.)
4.) He didn't vote for Rochester.

kdspurman
06-07-2015, 04:12 PM
Closing per ops request