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L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 03:27 PM
Stat was shown on the broadcast 2 nights ago, pretty surprised to Be honest.

Kobe with 24
Jordan with 20
Tim Duncan 18
Magic Johnson 13
Larry Bird 10
LeBron James 7

Surprised?



Thoughts?

I know it doesnt matter much, but i was surprised when i saw this stat.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-28-2015, 03:34 PM
yeah not surprising seeing Lebron that low on the list. His postseason trips most of the time have been cakewalks.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2015, 03:37 PM
not surprised, he has been on a team that was able to be awesome most his career. And during his span, the west has been as strong as ever, so the win totals are up there. The west has been stronger than the east for 30+ years, but the last 15 years has seen an east that is very top heavy, with mediocre teams after that making the playoffs, and historically crappy teams in the lottery. Hell, Jordan got over 1/4 of his on beating a west team in the finals...

Cal827
05-28-2015, 03:37 PM
Well, I don't find it too surprising since Kobe has won his titles in an era where the West has been brutally competitive. I think when the Lakers won their last NBA title, IIRC their first round match up (OKC) had 50 wins and were the 8th seed.

It's surprising to me that Duncan only has 18. Seeing that Kobe and Duncan both have 5 titles. I guess it might also be contributed be the opponent that they've faced in the finals. I think that every East team that Kobe has beaten in the finals had at least 50 or 51 wins. With Duncan, IIRC, they played the Nets in the finals who had like 48 wins, then the Cavs, and also the Knicks in the lock-out shortened season in 99.

koreancabbage
05-28-2015, 03:39 PM
Stat was shown on the broadcast 2 nights ago, pretty surprised to Be honest.

Kobe with 24
Jordan with 20
Tim Duncan 18
Magic Johnson 13
Larry Bird 10
LeBron James 7

Surprised?



Thoughts?

I know it doesnt matter much, but i was surprised when i saw this stat.

west has had great teams so its not a surprise. Kobe has been a great player. no doubt about it.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-28-2015, 03:39 PM
Not surprised.

He's in a conference where he has the opportunity to do so. Though it's not as if other players wouldn't have similar results in his scenario. But he's still the only one who's achieved it so good on him.

lol, please
05-28-2015, 03:39 PM
yeah not surprising seeing Lebron that low on the list. His postseason trips most of the time have been cakewalks.

Kobe :worthy:

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 03:40 PM
5th best player of all-time. Just giving me more reasons to keep him there. Keep em coming.

koreancabbage
05-28-2015, 03:40 PM
yeah not surprising seeing Lebron that low on the list. His postseason trips most of the time have been cakewalks.

pretty much this. lots of people are just putting emphasis on the disparity because Lebron plays in a weak(er) conference which is usually top 1-3 team heavy.

kdspurman
05-28-2015, 03:49 PM
Well, I don't find it too surprising since Kobe has won his titles in an era where the West has been brutally competitive. I think when the Lakers won their last NBA title, IIRC their first round match up (OKC) had 50 wins and were the 8th seed.

It's surprising to me that Duncan only has 18. Seeing that Kobe and Duncan both have 5 titles. I guess it might also be contributed be the opponent that they've faced in the finals. I think that every East team that Kobe has beaten in the finals had at least 50 or 51 wins. With Duncan, IIRC, they played the Nets in the finals who had like 48 wins, then the Cavs, and also the Knicks in the lock-out shortened season in 99.

The Cavs won 50 games that year in 2007, but yea. The 2 lockouts are probably factored a bit in this. Even though SA won 50 in the 2nd lockout, I think only Chicago did as well that year.

I think only the Knicks in 99 and the Nets (49 wins) were the non 50 win teams in the finals we played. I was a little surprised his number was lower too though tbh.

valade16
05-28-2015, 04:02 PM
Well, I don't find it too surprising since Kobe has won his titles in an era where the West has been brutally competitive. I think when the Lakers won their last NBA title, IIRC their first round match up (OKC) had 50 wins and were the 8th seed.

It's surprising to me that Duncan only has 18. Seeing that Kobe and Duncan both have 5 titles. I guess it might also be contributed be the opponent that they've faced in the finals. I think that every East team that Kobe has beaten in the finals had at least 50 or 51 wins. With Duncan, IIRC, they played the Nets in the finals who had like 48 wins, then the Cavs, and also the Knicks in the lock-out shortened season in 99.

Well the reason for that is because of the 2 recent NBA Lockouts.

The Spurs won the title in 98-99 but no team had 50 wins because they didn't play enough games, but going off records they beat 2 teams that would have been at 50 wins (Lakers and Blazers)

Then in 11-12 the Spurs beat the Clippers who would have won 50 games without the lockout.

So adding 3 he would be at 21, still not at Kobe's # but a few more.

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 04:18 PM
Impressive, especially seeing as how he was supposed to never get another ring without Shaq..….

dAngelo
05-28-2015, 04:32 PM
Not surprised. He was part of a team that had Shaq after all.

Teeboy1487
05-28-2015, 04:38 PM
Just goes to show the level of competition in the West the last 15+ years compared to the East. Duncan should be higher no doubt because of the lockouts.

PurpleLynch
05-28-2015, 04:42 PM
Not surprised. He was part of a team that had Shaq after all.

2008-2009 & 2009-2010 was a Shaq-less back to back.

R. Johnson#3
05-28-2015, 05:27 PM
There's a week to go before the Finals start. Better start talking about Kobe's past.

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 05:45 PM
I honestly don't get why more people don't like Kobe. :laugh:

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 05:46 PM
There's a week to go before the Finals start. Better start talking about Kobe's past.

WTF are you talking about, this was brought up during the broadcast of game 4 of the Cavs- Hawks series, I didn't just make up the topic it was on national TV.

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 05:50 PM
Not surprised. He was part of a team that had Shaq after all.


This would be a great point except one fact, Shaq is not even on this list, nice try though, I know it could be hard to imagine Kobe accomplished something without Shaq...

Bostonjorge
05-28-2015, 05:55 PM
So James lost to Spurs twice, Boston twice, Dallas, Orlando and Detroit. James is 7-7 against teams that are 50+ win teams. Don't worry guys he's about to play another 50+ win team in GS. James can make it 8-7 and dethrone Jordan at the same time.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2015, 05:57 PM
This would be a great point except one fact, Shaq is not even on this list, nice try though, I know it could be hard to imagine Kobe accomplished something without Shaq...

haha, exactly. Look, did Kobe benefit from playing with Shaq? Yep. So did Shaq the other way around. And I don't see Shaq anywhere on this list. Maybe he was left off, but I can't imagine he would have more than 10 at most.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2015, 06:00 PM
I would like to see where everyone was at around 30 years old. Throwing up these numbers with James still having a handful of years as a dominate player.

But Kobe did play in the highly competitive west, where in round 2 at the very least, you never saw a team with less than 50 wins with an exception or 2 (Warriors one year)

IndyRealist
05-28-2015, 06:07 PM
I assume the list is cherry picked, because I would imagine Horry and Fisher would probably have at least 7 each.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:14 PM
Stat was shown on the broadcast 2 nights ago, pretty surprised to Be honest.

Kobe with 24
Jordan with 20
Tim Duncan 18
Magic Johnson 13
Larry Bird 10
LeBron James 7

Surprised?



Thoughts?

I know it doesnt matter much, but i was surprised when i saw this stat.

Not surprised at all, nor am I surprised at lebrons stat.

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 06:14 PM
I would like to see where everyone was at around 30 years old. Throwing up these numbers with James still having a handful of years as a dominate player.

But Kobe did play in the highly competitive west, where in round 2 at the very least, you never saw a team with less than 50 wins with an exception or 2 (Warriors one year)

I agree, I think the only thing this stat shows is that the West has been tough for a long time, and the lakers always had a pretty good team, if they weren't good, they would not have won that many series against 50 win teams.

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 06:17 PM
I assume the list is cherry picked, because I would imagine Horry and Fisher would probably have at least 7 each.

That's a good question, the list was pulled from the Cavs - Hawks game the other night, but I'm pretty sure Shaq and Fisher and even Horry would be listed like you said, not sure why ESPN/ABC would not include them.

Ebbs
05-28-2015, 06:17 PM
Where's Shaq. There's no way Kobe leads the list and Shaq doesn't make the top 5.

jerellh528
05-28-2015, 06:21 PM
I assume the list is cherry picked, because I would imagine Horry and Fisher would probably have at least 7 each.

I would like to see where shaq is. But I find it hilarious when people bring up b&c level role players in these types of discussions lol.

YAALREADYKNO
05-28-2015, 06:26 PM
2008-2009 & 2009-2010 was a Shaq-less back to back.

But gasol was the real MVP of those laker teams 😂😂😂

jerellh528
05-28-2015, 06:26 PM
I would like to see where everyone was at around 30 years old. Throwing up these numbers with James still having a handful of years as a dominate player.

But Kobe did play in the highly competitive west, where in round 2 at the very least, you never saw a team with less than 50 wins with an exception or 2 (Warriors one year)

If the east doesn't shape up fast, I can't imagine James adding a whole lot more. Maybe 1-3 max per year, for 5 more years, let's say average of 2, which is pushing it and he's still only at 17 by age 35/36.

LakerShow
05-28-2015, 06:36 PM
Kobe was so dam good. Always has been Highly under appreciated by fans, especially the media.

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 06:39 PM
I assume the list is cherry picked, because I would imagine Horry and Fisher would probably have at least 7 each.

Im sure they left role players off. Otherwise Luke Walton or Tiago Splitter would be up there! Lol

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 06:44 PM
Where's Shaq. There's no way Kobe leads the list and Shaq doesn't make the top 5.

I could see that. Factoring in Shaq started in the east then went back there. Also factoring in even after Kobe wasn't making Finals trips they were still getting to the second round, while Shaq was already done.

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 07:00 PM
nvm. :cool:

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 07:04 PM
So James lost to Spurs twice, Boston twice, Dallas, Orlando and Detroit. James is 7-7 against teams that are 50+ win teams. Don't worry guys he's about to play another 50+ win team in GS. James can make it 8-7 and dethrone Jordan at the same time.

Lol

dAngelo
05-28-2015, 07:07 PM
For what it's worth, during Shaq's tenure with the Lakers, they eliminated 13 50-win teams. Why Shaq is not on that list, I have no idea.

YAALREADYKNO
05-28-2015, 07:08 PM
Shaq is missing Dirk is missing A lot of people are missing. If they really put the whole list there lebron would be even more down on the list

Lakers + Giants
05-28-2015, 07:37 PM
I honestly don't get why more people don't like Kobe. :laugh:

1. He plays for the Lakers: Most Loved and Hated

2. His attitude: Loved and Hated

3. His "similarity" to Jordan: Loved and Hated

4. His Rape allegations

5. His huge fan base: Many of which will defend him to death

6. He crushed other teams dreams :laugh2:

TDE
05-28-2015, 08:04 PM
How many did Lebron win with the Superteam in Miami?

numba1CHANGsta
05-28-2015, 08:05 PM
LOL @ LeBron

This just proves how bad the East has been, Kobe had to go through 50+ win teams all the time in the playoffs to reach the NBA Finals

TDE
05-28-2015, 08:06 PM
HOw many do legends like Garnett, Pierce, Dwight and Hakeem have?

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 08:07 PM
What bothered me greatly is that they didn't include Shaq here.
I am pretty sure he has 20+ wins under that criteria.

Very sad how the media after the early 00's basically started to completely disregard Shaq who is the best player since Jordan (Duncan is close & Lebron could surpass in the future).
They went from basically calling him a GOAT candidate in the early 00's to saying Kobe surpassed him (LOL) and now basically he is a guy they will barely mention when discussing ATG's.

Also how many of Kobe's 50+ series wins came as an All-Star (not Super-Star) level supporting player?

Let me count.
3 in 00
2 in 02
1 in 04

Not sure if they are counting pre-00 series either.
I am assuming they did.

So.
1 in 98

So that is 5 series where he was only putting up All-Star numbers on a Shaq led team.
1 series as a roleplayer on the 98 Lakers.
1 series when he was injured (00 Finals).

Subtract those and his total drops to 17 which is likely worse then Shaquille's total even with all his not so great playoff series removed (aren't many of those).

Now don't get me wrong Kobe has beaten more 50 teams then most while performing at a Super-Star level so this isn't a shot at him and Lebron/Magic did play in weak conferences but those stats are still misleading.

The media for the most part is only entertainment.
It isn't a logical entity that should be taken seriously by serious basketball fans & analysts.
At best they represent the most casual of fans. That is who they cater too.
*rant over*



Man what a horrible post, first off lets talk about how you brought up 00, 02, 04, you say that Kobe was out injured, Kobe missed one game, but he also hit the game winner in game 5 when Shaq was fouled out, but Ok lets give you that 1. 02 Kobe was a superstar and was first team all NBA, 04, he was dealing with Colorado and was the best player on the Lakers that year, Shaq had started to wear down. Looking up the stats, Shaq has been in 17 series where he knocked out a 50 win team, that is still 7 behind Kobe. I love how you just make up a number like Shaq must have over 20+, do some research.

Also you say take Shaq away from Kobe and he only has 17, well 17 is still a lot and the reverse of that would be, how many of the 17 Shaq won, would he still win all 17 without Kobe, I highley doubt it. You have to look at it from both players perspective.

Here is what I gathered from your response, you do not like Kobe, plain and simple..

TDE
05-28-2015, 08:07 PM
How many does MJ have without Pippen?

DemarDerozan
05-28-2015, 08:08 PM
This would be a great point except one fact, Shaq is not even on this list, nice try though, I know it could be hard to imagine Kobe accomplished something without Shaq...

This. Pretty much what I was going to post. Shaq was the man for one of the three title runs... But I think Shaqs career body of work is more comparable to DWade or Pippen than Jordan or Kobe.

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 08:09 PM
HOw many do legends like Garnett, Pierce, Dwight and Hakeem have?


Did you just say Dwight and legend in the same sentence? You have to be joking.

AIRMAR72
05-28-2015, 08:11 PM
2008-2009 & 2009-2010 was a Shaq-less back to back.Pau Gasol is reason along with Ron Artest

Cal827
05-28-2015, 08:14 PM
HOw many do legends like Garnett, Pierce, Dwight and Hakeem have?

One of these things is not like the others :laugh2:

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 08:29 PM
Pau Gasol is reason along with Ron Artest

So they are the reason and Kobe had nothing to do with it. Pau was 0-12 in the playoffs before the Lakers and Ron had never been out of the second round except once in Indy, nice try though. If you dont think Kobe was the catalyst for those teams then your just a troll.

YAALREADYKNO
05-28-2015, 08:39 PM
HOw many do legends like Garnett, Pierce, Dwight and Hakeem have?

Kg was eliminated from the playoffs in the first round 6 yrs in a row but he might've gotten a few with Boston and maybe 1-2 with the wolves

YAALREADYKNO
05-28-2015, 08:41 PM
So they are the reason and Kobe had nothing to do with it. Pau was 0-12 in the playoffs before the Lakers and Ron had never been out of the second round except once in Indy, nice try though. If you dont think Kobe was the catalyst for those teams then your just a troll.

Kobe gets no credit for what he does. All he is on this site is a ball hog and a chucker. If Kobe would've took 37 shots for 37 points like lebron did he'd be getting killed on here lol

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 08:46 PM
Pau was 0-12 in the playoffs before the Lakers


While being on crap teams and facing incredibly strong competition.
Kobe in a similar situation (05-07) and while facing weaker competition missed the playoffs and got booted out of the 1st round twice.
That isn't much better especially since Kobe is obviously considered (and is) a much higher caliber player.

09 Gasol had a better playoff run then 00 Kobe.
10 Gasol had a better playoff run then 02 Kobe.

There is no reason to diminish how good Pau was.
Kobe was still amazing in those runs though (especially in 08 & 09) so there is no reason to diminish him either.
There aren't many players who have reached the level he was at then or who have had better 3-4 year runs.

MTar786
05-28-2015, 09:17 PM
lol this forum hates on kobe so much.. but i dont mind because it just shows how little they know about bball.

kobe is a top 5-10 player of all time and no one can take that away from him. sorry haters, tough luck

More-Than-Most
05-28-2015, 09:18 PM
Impressive, especially seeing as how he was supposed to never get another ring without Shaq..….

Only took stealing gasol and him threatening to leave the franchise.

More-Than-Most
05-28-2015, 09:19 PM
lol this forum hates on kobe so much.. but i dont mind because it just shows how little they know about bball.

kobe is a top 5-10 player of all time and no one can take that away from him. sorry haters, tough luck

i dont think anybody disagrees he is top 5-10... id say 8-12... Id have him 8 but I dont mind 5-10... I currently have him 8 and Lebron 7.

Shlumpledink
05-28-2015, 09:24 PM
Not surprised. He was part of a team that had Shaq after all.

Last I checked, Shaq only had 17.

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 09:32 PM
Last I checked, Shaq only had 17.

17 what?
Wins against 50 win teams?

May I ask where you got that number from?

MTar786
05-28-2015, 09:36 PM
i dont think anybody disagrees he is top 5-10... id say 8-12... Id have him 8 but I dont mind 5-10... I currently have him 8 and Lebron 7.

i agree with you.. just some may have kobe at 7 and lebron 8. thats why i just said 5-10. if you take away consideration for wilt and russel i may have kobe at 4 even. For me personally kareem mj and shaq are top 3 (when at the height of their powers) then comes the rest ie kobe, magic, lebron, bird, duncan and hakeem.

RaiderLakersA's
05-28-2015, 09:43 PM
This would be a great point except one fact, Shaq is not even on this list, nice try though, I know it could be hard to imagine Kobe accomplished something without Shaq...

:laugh:

RaiderLakersA's
05-28-2015, 09:53 PM
One of these things is not like the others :laugh2:

Oh snap! I was in a bad mood, but you guys brought me out of it. Some of these post are hilarious. :cheers:

Vince70
05-28-2015, 09:53 PM
How desperate are you Kobe fans to find anything to knock LeBron? You just simply ignore the OBVIOUS HUGE MISTAKE in this sloppy misinformed list. Shaq has had at least 15-20 of these in his career so where in the heck is his name? I would imagine Kareem and Olajuwon also have more way way more than seven. Never trust ESPN with this kind of stuff. You want to talk about numbers? LeBron's career averages vs Kobe's career averages. Who has who beat in every major category?

Hawkeye15
05-28-2015, 10:10 PM
If the east doesn't shape up fast, I can't imagine James adding a whole lot more. Maybe 1-3 max per year, for 5 more years, let's say average of 2, which is pushing it and he's still only at 17 by age 35/36.

oh no doubt. I can't see LeBron's number, in this discussion (which I don't think is a big deal btw), ever getting over 12-13.

Iron24th
05-28-2015, 10:14 PM
Not surprised. He was part of a team that had Shaq after all.

Orlando got shaq too.

still1ballin
05-28-2015, 10:15 PM
Not surprised at all bcuz he iz ze gratest no ?s askd

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 10:18 PM
Orlando got shaq too.

Yeah.
They made the Finals and then lost in the CFinals against the 96 Bulls (GOAT team).
I would say they did pretty well.

Bruno
05-28-2015, 10:19 PM
this one is a pretty cool one for Laker fans to have and enjoy.

i was alluding to this concept here:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?892200-Lebron-About-to-Make-Finals-History&p=29991229#post29991229

and here:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?892200-Lebron-About-to-Make-Finals-History&p=29989635#post29989635

but this concept shouldn't be a knock on James, its not LBJs fault, NBA playoff structuring needs an overhaul. this is just another reason to celebrate Kobes career as he enters the home stretch.

LakerShow
05-28-2015, 10:19 PM
Not surprised at all bcuz he iz ze gratest no ?s askd

Caw caw!

Bruno
05-28-2015, 10:21 PM
How desperate are you Kobe fans to find anything to knock LeBron? You just simply ignore the OBVIOUS HUGE MISTAKE in this sloppy misinformed list. Shaq has had at least 15-20 of these in his career so where in the heck is his name? I would imagine Kareem and Olajuwon also have more way way more than seven. Never trust ESPN with this kind of stuff. You want to talk about numbers? LeBron's career averages vs Kobe's career averages. Who has who beat in every major category?

you should look it up id love to know about Shaq, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, etc.

Gibby
05-28-2015, 10:34 PM
Lockouts are a big factor. Lebron would have 3 more. He still has a lot of years left.

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 10:37 PM
you should look it up id love to know about Shaq, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, etc.

Shaq has 18 from 95-06 (did a quick scan).

Bruno
05-28-2015, 10:47 PM
Shaq has 18 from 95-06 (did a quick scan).

i was just coming here to post this.

'93- 0
'94- 0
95- 1
96- 0
'99- 50 game lockout season.
'97- 0
'98- 1
'99- 0
'00- 3
'01- 4
'02- 3
'03- 1
'04- 2
'05- 0
'06- 2
'07- 0
'08- 0
'09- 0
'10- 0
'11- 0

I counted 17, but I could have made an error.

in doing this research I found another reason to be very homery regarding the 2001 Lakers. They took out four 50+ win teams during their 15-1 playoff run (I'm going to look up if they're the only ones to ever do it). Those teams out west were Portland, Sacramento, and San Antonio. Interesting because The Trailblazers take the Lakers to seven games in 2000, and the Kings do it in 2002, and Spur championships bookend the Laker threepeat.

Bruno
05-28-2015, 10:58 PM
Lockouts are a big factor. Lebron would have 3 more. He still has a lot of years left.

A fifty win team in a regular 82 game season has a winning percentage of 61%.

In the 2012 66 game lock out, Miamis four playoff opponents had the following win percentages:
Knicks- 54.5%
Pacers- 63.6%
Celtics- 59.1%
Thunder- 71.2%

So if we gave LBJ the benefit of the doubt and counted teams he eliminated with a 61% winning percentage or higher, he'd add two to his total for the 2012 post-season.

Regarding the '99 lockout, Kobe and Shaq would both get +1 as a result of being the 31-19 Rockets, who had a 62% winning percentage. Duncan would get a +2 from 1999 as well (beating Portland, beating LAL on the way to the championship).

I think its alright to acknowledge the 61% aspect for lockout years. we have no way of knowing who would have finished with 50 wins those years had it been an 82 game season, but its fair game.

still1ballin
05-28-2015, 11:07 PM
Caw caw!

free as seagull

Bruno
05-28-2015, 11:52 PM
Well, I don't find it too surprising since Kobe has won his titles in an era where the West has been brutally competitive. I think when the Lakers won their last NBA title, IIRC their first round match up (OKC) had 50 wins and were the 8th seed.
Whats amazing about that is that the 8th seed Thunder had the same record as the 2010 Boston Celtics, the team that takes LAL to seven games. but had Boston been in the west they only would have qualified as the 8th seed on a tie breaker.


It's surprising to me that Duncan only has 18. Seeing that Kobe and Duncan both have 5 titles. I guess it might also be contributed be the opponent that they've faced in the finals. I think that every East team that Kobe has beaten in the finals had at least 50 or 51 wins. With Duncan, IIRC, they played the Nets in the finals who had like 48 wins, then the Cavs, and also the Knicks in the lock-out shortened season in 99.

If you give Duncan credit for the '99 lockout he gets +2, in the sense that he took out two teams who were on pace to win 50 games, with a 61%+ winning percentage by lock out seasons end. he defeated the clippers and jazz in the 2012 lock out post season but neither team had a 61%+ winning percentage (although the Clippers were sitting right there at 60.6, on pace for 49.

Bruno
05-29-2015, 12:11 AM
Well the reason for that is because of the 2 recent NBA Lockouts.

The Spurs won the title in 98-99 but no team had 50 wins because they didn't play enough games, but going off records they beat 2 teams that would have been at 50 wins (Lakers and Blazers)

Then in 11-12 the Spurs beat the Clippers who would have won 50 games without the lockout.

So adding 3 he would be at 21, still not at Kobe's # but a few more.

Yeah Duncan gets a +2 from '99. The '12 Clippers technically don't qualify. they were on pace for 49.

Kobe gets a +1 from 1999 (Houston) as well if we consider all teams that had a 61% win percentage or higher in lock out seasons.

so if we give credence to the 61% thing, Kobe is sitting at 25 and Duncan is sitting at 20. The gap is surprising regardless considering they shared the west in the same era.

TDE
05-29-2015, 12:18 AM
Did you just say Dwight and legend in the same sentence? You have to be joking.

That was an obvious, joke

Bruno
05-29-2015, 12:28 AM
Bill Russell

'57- 0 (Amazing season to research, almost every team in the league was .500 and there were only 72 games)
'58- 0
'59- 0
'60- 2
'61- 1
'62- 2
'63- 1
'64- 1
'65- 1
NBA introduces three round post-season system.
'66- 1
'67- 0
'68- 2
'69- 3

Russell sits at 14. The graphic probably left him off because the playoff system was so different in the 50's and 60's and because it was so long ago.

numba1CHANGsta
05-29-2015, 12:45 AM
I love how everyones saying "oh but its because of Shaq or Pau or Artest" but I love how everyone gives all the credit to LeBron for always winning and never give credit to Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or Irving smh The Hate Is Real, you guys all hate Kobe cuz he always beat your fav teams when you were young LOL

bucketss
05-29-2015, 12:47 AM
I love how everyones saying "oh but its because of Shaq or Pau or Artest" but I love how everyone gives all the credit to LeBron for always winning and never give credit to Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or Irving smh The Hate Is Real, you guys all hate Kobe cuz he always beat your fav teams when you were young LOL

coming from the dude that gave 100% credit to ray allen for miamis 2013 ship.

Bruno
05-29-2015, 12:49 AM
I love how everyones saying "oh but its because of Shaq or Pau or Artest" but I love how everyone gives all the credit to LeBron for always winning and never give credit to Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or Irving smh The Hate Is Real, you guys all hate Kobe cuz he always beat your fav teams when you were young LOL

what i find most interesting about the dismissive comments is that it comes from a few of the same users who praise the Spurs for their consecutive 50 win seasons.

50 wins as a NBA concept deserves attention, or it doesn't. can't appreciate one half of it and not the other half. can't praise teams who win 50 for their excellence while shrugging our shoulders at the teams who eliminate them in a best of seven.

LakerShow
05-29-2015, 12:52 AM
I love how everyones saying "oh but its because of Shaq or Pau or Artest" but I love how everyone gives all the credit to LeBron for always winning and never give credit to Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or Irving smh The Hate Is Real, you guys all hate Kobe cuz he always beat your fav teams when you were young LOL

Broken dreams and domination.

TDE
05-29-2015, 01:49 AM
It's always the same haters. I think Tredgis guy and Jordanbulls are missing...Common PSD

andy2518
05-29-2015, 03:16 AM
It's because of Shaq and Pau. Kobe was lucky to be gifted great teams his whole career. Kobe was just along for the ride and Shaq and Pau were the real heroes.

andy2518
05-29-2015, 03:25 AM
I love how everyones saying "oh but its because of Shaq or Pau or Artest" but I love how everyone gives all the credit to LeBron for always winning and never give credit to Wade or Bosh or Ray Allen or Irving smh The Hate Is Real, you guys all hate Kobe cuz he always beat your fav teams when you were young LOL

People are always hypocritical when it comes to their heroes. Lebron stans will say that Kobe ain't **** without Shaq and Pau and Kobe stans will say that Lebron ain't **** without Wade and Bosh. It's a team sport people. There is a huge luck factor involved with creating a legacy. It's just the way it is. One can bash their favorite players rivals for being lucky, but they never seem to apply that same logic to their own guy.

YAALREADYKNO
05-29-2015, 10:48 AM
People are always hypocritical when it comes to their heroes. Lebron stans will say that Kobe ain't **** without Shaq and Pau and Kobe stans will say that Lebron ain't **** without Wade and Bosh. It's a team sport people. There is a huge luck factor involved with creating a legacy. It's just the way it is. One can bash their favorite players rivals for being lucky, but they never seem to apply that same logic to their own guy.

Well here on this site it's "Kobe isn't **** without shaq and gasol" and "wade and bosh ain't **** without lebron"

JordansBulls
05-29-2015, 11:29 AM
I think it also shows they are counting seasons where Kobe wasn't close to the best player on the team as well like 1998, 2000 to name a few.

Jamiecballer
05-29-2015, 12:09 PM
one of the greatest players all time in Shaq and a great player in his own right with an incredibly long career. i didn't know the numbers but it's not surprising that he's up there.

Jamiecballer
05-29-2015, 12:43 PM
coming from the dude that gave 100% credit to ray allen for miamis 2013 ship.

lololol

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 01:46 PM
I think it also shows they are counting seasons where Kobe wasn't close to the best player on the team as well like 1998, 2000 to name a few.


Sorry to break it to you, Lakers got swept out of the playoffs in 98, and 00 Kobe was the second best player on a championship team, and hit a game winner in the finals when Shaq fouled out.. Nice try though, and that would only be two 50 win teams they knocked out that year, which would still have Kobe in the lead by 3. It's so sad, how so many of you want to discredit Kobe for no reason.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2015, 03:10 PM
James is nothing without teams who have less then 50 wins.

LA_Raiders
05-29-2015, 03:14 PM
The toughest competition he has faced is in the finals against the west. The Easy has been a walk with small bumps with Indiana and Chicago.

SirSkyHook
05-29-2015, 04:15 PM
I hate the Kobe had Shaq and Gasol argument, becuase they had him to. Anyone who watched those games in the early 2000's Shaq's major dominance came in the finals against the East. Kobe was just as important or more so against the West to get to the finals especially against the Spurs. Lets look at the last 16 years.

Duncan and Robinson 99
Kobe and Shaq 00-01-02
Duncan,Parker and Ginobili 03
Piston were more of a great team than star powered
Duncan, Parker and Ginobili 05
Wade and Shaq 06
Duncan, Parker and Ginobili 07
Pierce, Garnett and Allen 08
Kobe and Pau 09-10
Dirk 11 loaded team but only real star and basically pulled an successful 07 Lebron move
Lebron, Wade and Bosh 12-13
Duncan, Leonard and Parker 14

How is it that Kobe is the only that gets discredited? that ridiculous. He played in the deepest conference and had the most success in his era. 7 final appearances should say enough. Five rings should say enough. The stat on this thread should say enough, but noooo it cant be Kobe smh.

MarkieMark48
05-29-2015, 05:10 PM
I hate the Kobe had Shaq and Gasol argument, becuase they had him to. Anyone who watched those games in the early 2000's Shaq's major dominance came in the finals against the East. Kobe was just as important or more so against the West to get to the finals especially against the Spurs. Lets look at the last 16 years.

Duncan and Robinson 99
Kobe and Shaq 00-01-02
Duncan,Parker and Ginobili 03
Piston were more of a great team than star powered
Duncan, Parker and Ginobili 05
Wade and Shaq 06
Duncan, Parker and Ginobili 07
Pierce, Garnett and Allen 08
Kobe and Pau 09-10
Dirk 11 loaded team but only real star and basically pulled an successful 07 Lebron move
Lebron, Wade and Bosh 12-13
Duncan, Leonard and Parker 14

How is it that Kobe is the only that gets discredited? that ridiculous. He played in the deepest conference and had the most success in his era. 7 final appearances should say enough. Five rings should say enough. The stat on this thread should say enough, but noooo it cant be Kobe smh.

Very solid point...nobody ever argues that lebron had wade and bosh on his heat championship teams.

No 1 player can beat a team, period.

Teeboy1487
05-29-2015, 05:30 PM
You do have to take into account the regular season success Lebron teams have. Alot of his teams the last several years headed to the playoffs as top 2 seeds. In the East, he was always facing trash in the first round. While this stat is incredibly impressive, I don't discredit Lebron too much for being low on this list. I actually give Lebron credit for getting it done in the regular season so he could have an easier road. I do think that was a factor. The East simply sucks. I'm surprised more players don't want to go to the East. Far easier road to the championship imo. The West is a grind.

Andrew32
05-29-2015, 05:32 PM
Sorry to break it to you, Lakers got swept out of the playoffs in 98


With Kobe playing like a below average roleplayer...
Don't see how that is an argument in his favor.


and 00 Kobe was the second best player on a championship team, and hit a game winner in the finals when Shaq fouled out..

Yeah he did hit a game winner.
He was also mostly irrelevant in the other games.
Should we consider that a decent let alone good series based on one excellent game?
Cherry picking single games to judge a full playoff series or cherry picking single series to judge a playoff run is illogical. Just covering up the reality of things.


Anyone who watched those games in the early 2000's Shaq's major dominance came in the finals against the East.


Um, what?
Shaq dominated at all times. He dominated against the West and in the Finals.


Kobe was just as important or more so against the West to get to the finals

No he really wasn't.

Conference stats (pre-Finals)
*
00 Kobe : 22 / 4 / 4.5-apg on 55%TS
02 Kobe : 26.6 / 6 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS

10 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.4-apg on 62%TS
91 Pippen : 22 / 9 / 5.5-apg on 58%TS

_________________________________________


Playoff PER :
---

00 Shaq = 30.5
02 Shaq = 28.3

91 Jordan = 31.6
92 Jordan = 27.7

_______________


00 Kobe = 19.3
02 Kobe = 20.5

91 Pippen = 22.0
92 Pippen = 20.1
******
10 Gasol = 24.0


*********************

Anyone who thinks Kobe was 1b or even in the same galaxy as Shaq in their 00 or 02 runs needs a reality check.

Don't tell me you are gonna look at those numbers and tell me that Kobe was equal to Peak Shaq.
He wasn't even nessasarily equal to Pippen or Gasol in their best supporting runs.
Utter nonsense and revisionist history though I am sure Kobe would fully approve.

Also don't bring up his 2001 run.
I know how good he was "that year" and have no problem with him getting full credit for that Ring.
The other two years however he earned Pippen level rings at best.

Jamiecballer
05-29-2015, 06:01 PM
You do have to take into account the regular season success Lebron teams have. Alot of his teams the last several years headed to the playoffs as top 2 seeds. In the East, he was always facing trash in the first round. While this stat is incredibly impressive, I don't discredit Lebron too much for being low on this list. I actually give Lebron credit for getting it done in the regular season so he could have an easier road. I do think that was a factor. The East simply sucks. I'm surprised more players don't want to go to the East. Far easier road to the championship imo. The West is a grind.
Great point. Sort of a corollary to the "you can't beat who you don't play" argument.

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 06:22 PM
With Kobe playing like a below average roleplayer...
Don't see how that is an argument in his favor.



Yeah he did hit a game winner.
He was also mostly irrelevant in the other games.
Should we consider that a decent let alone good series based on one excellent game?
Cherry picking single games to judge a full playoff series or cherry picking single series to judge a playoff run is illogical. Just covering up the reality of things.



Um, what?
Shaq dominated at all times. He dominated against the West and in the Finals.



No he really wasn't.

Conference stats (pre-Finals)
*
00 Kobe : 22 / 4 / 4.5-apg on 55%TS
02 Kobe : 26.6 / 6 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS

10 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.4-apg on 62%TS
91 Pippen : 22 / 9 / 5.5-apg on 58%TS

_________________________________________


Playoff PER :
---

00 Shaq = 30.5
02 Shaq = 28.3

91 Jordan = 31.6
92 Jordan = 27.7

_______________


00 Kobe = 19.3
02 Kobe = 20.5

91 Pippen = 22.0
92 Pippen = 20.1
******
10 Gasol = 24.0


*********************

Anyone who thinks Kobe was 1b or even in the same galaxy as Shaq in their 00 or 02 runs needs a reality check.

Don't tell me you are gonna look at those numbers and tell me that Kobe was equal to Peak Shaq.
He wasn't even nessasarily equal to Pippen or Gasol in their best supporting runs.
Utter nonsense and revisionist history though I am sure Kobe would fully approve.

Also don't bring up his 2001 run.
I know how good he was "that year" and have no problem with him getting full credit for that Ring.
The other two years however he earned Pippen level rings at best.


First off, in reference to 98, you brought up 98, all I was saying is 98 would not have affected his playoff resume, they did not beat any 50 win teams that year cuz they got swept in the first round, so him and shaq eliminating 50 win teams would not matter that year.

Discrediting Kobe because he was the second best player on the 3 peat lakers is completely ridiculous. James Worthy and Kareem were both MVP's in the finals, does that discredit Magic.

And what the hell is Pippen level rings, are you kidding me? What kind of argument is this?

Also you are comaping Kobe at ages 21 and 23 to Pippen and Gasol who were approaching 30. Kobe was a pup, but he was also the best wing defender and primary ball handler of those championship teams.

Just stop, I agree he wasnt on Shaq's level in 00 and 02, but he was on Shaq's level in 01 and 04 and better than Shaq in 03, who cares, does that take away from Shaq, no... Just stop, your digging for nothing, Kobe is every bit as valuable to the Lakers championships as Shaq..

Bruno
05-29-2015, 06:33 PM
With Kobe playing like a below average roleplayer...
Don't see how that is an argument in his favor.



Yeah he did hit a game winner.
He was also mostly irrelevant in the other games.
Should we consider that a decent let alone good series based on one excellent game?
Cherry picking single games to judge a full playoff series or cherry picking single series to judge a playoff run is illogical. Just covering up the reality of things.



Um, what?
Shaq dominated at all times. He dominated against the West and in the Finals.



No he really wasn't.

Conference stats (pre-Finals)
*
00 Kobe : 22 / 4 / 4.5-apg on 55%TS
02 Kobe : 26.6 / 6 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS

10 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.4-apg on 62%TS
91 Pippen : 22 / 9 / 5.5-apg on 58%TS

_________________________________________


Playoff PER :
---

00 Shaq = 30.5
02 Shaq = 28.3

91 Jordan = 31.6
92 Jordan = 27.7

_______________


00 Kobe = 19.3
02 Kobe = 20.5

91 Pippen = 22.0
92 Pippen = 20.1
******
10 Gasol = 24.0


*********************

Anyone who thinks Kobe was 1b or even in the same galaxy as Shaq in their 00 or 02 runs needs a reality check.

Don't tell me you are gonna look at those numbers and tell me that Kobe was equal to Peak Shaq.
He wasn't even nessasarily equal to Pippen or Gasol in their best supporting runs.
Utter nonsense and revisionist history though I am sure Kobe would fully approve.

Also don't bring up his 2001 run.
I know how good he was "that year" and have no problem with him getting full credit for that Ring.
The other two years however he earned Pippen level rings at best.
its nice to see you acknowledge what he did in 2001. he did lead the entire post season in win-shares on a team that has the greatest winning percentage in post-season history.

Teeboy1487
05-29-2015, 06:35 PM
First off, in reference to 98, you brought up 98, all I was saying is 98 would not have affected his playoff resume, they did not beat any 50 win teams that year cuz they got swept in the first round, so him and shaq eliminating 50 win teams would not matter that year.

Discrediting Kobe because he was the second best player on the 3 peat lakers is completely ridiculous. James Worthy and Kareem were both MVP's in the finals, does that discredit Magic.

And what the hell is Pippen level rings, are you kidding me? What kind of argument is this?

Also you are comaping Kobe at ages 21 and 23 to Pippen and Gasol who were approaching 30. Kobe was a pup, but he was also the best wing defender and primary ball handler of those championship teams.

Just stop, I agree he wasnt on Shaq's level in 00 and 02, but he was on Shaq's level in 01 and 04 and better than Shaq in 03, who cares, does that take away from Shaq, no... Just stop, your digging for nothing, Kobe is every bit as valuable to the Lakers championships as Shaq..

This. Some posters try so hard to discredit Kobe. I just don't understand it.

Andrew32
05-29-2015, 06:52 PM
First off, in reference to 98, you brought up 98, all I was saying is 98 would not have affected his playoff resume, they did not beat any 50 win teams that year cuz they got swept in the first round, so him and shaq eliminating 50 win teams would not matter that year.


You are mistaken.
They lost in the Conference Finals that year and did beat one 50 win team in the process.
That team was Seattle.


Discrediting Kobe because he was the second best player on the 3 peat lakers is completely ridiculous.

Not trying to discredit him.
Only saying that for those two runs I mentioned he doesn't deserve comparable credit to Shaq or more credit then Pippen or Gasol got for some of their best runs.


James Worthy and Kareem were both MVP's in the finals, does that discredit Magic.

Career value holds no relevance whatsoever when we are judging the value of a single specific year.

Kobe obviously had some monster years in the late 00's where he performed much better then he did in say 00 or 02. That doesn't make his early 00 runs more valuable.


And what the hell is Pippen level rings, are you kidding me? What kind of argument is this?

I am saying that Kobe was producing & impacting the game no better then Pippen was in some of his best supporting years.
That is hardly an insult since Pippen was an amazing #2. One of the best ever in my eyes.


Also you are comaping Kobe at ages 21 and 23 to Pippen and Gasol who were approaching 30.

You act like I am saying they are better then Kobe.
Career wise Kobe is >>>>> Pippen & Gasol.
We are talking about individual years here.

I think 10 Gasol is very clearly > 00 Kobe but that doesn't mean he had a better career then Bryant.
00 & 02 were two of Kobe's worst Prime years.


Just stop, I agree he wasnt on Shaq's level in 00 and 02, but he was on Shaq's level in 01 and 04 and better than Shaq in 03

He was amazing in 01 but he wasn't equal to Shaq.
I mean do you think 01 Kobe is equal to Peak Jordan?
Not saying the gap was nessasarily big or anything but it was clear (imo).

He was also clearly better in 03.
Shaq badly outperformed Kobe in the playoffs that year.
Infact he led the entire league in playoff PER that year by a pretty big margin.
He also led the league in RAPM I believe or was close to the league lead while Kobe was much further down.

There isn't much to support Kobe being better that year.
His very basic box score numbers in the reg-season are close enough but in terms of advanced stats he gets killed and in terms of everything he gets killed in the playoffs.
LAL was also 3-9 before Shaq returned and buoyed them. So it isn't like Kobe did a great job keeping them afloat with him out.

2004 is a year I would also give to Shaq though the gap is smaller.
Shaq had a better conference run and actually showed up in the Finals.
I don't think Kobe was ever equal or better then Shaq during their time together.


Kobe is every bit as valuable to the Lakers championships as Shaq.

I firmly disagree.
I showed you the numbers in my last post. Facts are facts.
To say Kobe was just as valuable would mean that in 00 & 02 he performed at a level comparable to Shaq and that just isn't true.

That kind of revisionist history is insane.
Not much better then saying Pippen was equal to Jordan in their early runs.

Chronz
05-29-2015, 07:08 PM
so glad ur back bro. ill link u to the thread where i stand up for shaq against the kobephiles who wish it was even close to comparable

MonroeFAN
05-29-2015, 07:12 PM
Why is Shaq absent from this list?

Edit : ah sorry, seems like this has been discussed. Only Laker fans would think Kobe was more important to their championship runs than Shaq. Kobe sucked when we played them in 2004.

Tony_Starks
05-29-2015, 07:16 PM
I hate the Kobe had Shaq and Gasol argument, becuase they had him to. Anyone who watched those games in the early 2000's Shaq's major dominance came in the finals against the East. Kobe was just as important or more so against the West to get to the finals especially against the Spurs. Lets look at the last 16 years.

Duncan and Robinson 99
Kobe and Shaq 00-01-02
Duncan,Parker and Ginobili 03
Piston were more of a great team than star powered
Duncan, Parker and Ginobili 05
Wade and Shaq 06
Duncan, Parker and Ginobili 07
Pierce, Garnett and Allen 08
Kobe and Pau 09-10
Dirk 11 loaded team but only real star and basically pulled an successful 07 Lebron move
Lebron, Wade and Bosh 12-13
Duncan, Leonard and Parker 14

How is it that Kobe is the only that gets discredited? that ridiculous. He played in the deepest conference and had the most success in his era. 7 final appearances should say enough. Five rings should say enough. The stat on this thread should say enough, but noooo it cant be Kobe smh.


This is pretty much the way it always goes. I've never ever seen any other star have their teammates held against him like they do Kobe. Let the haters tell it Kobe, Bynum, and Odom were the original super team! LOL

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 07:25 PM
so glad ur back bro. ill link u to the thread where i stand up for shaq against the kobephiles who wish it was even close to comparable

Nobody is discerditing Shaq, but lets stop acting like Kobe was a important part of those Championship teams. This isnt an argument of who is better Shaq or Kobe, this is about him saying Kobe shouldnt get credit for eliminating 50 win teams in 98, 00, and 02, that is all.

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 07:28 PM
Why is Shaq absent from this list?

Edit : ah sorry, seems like this has been discussed. Only Laker fans would think Kobe was more important to their championship runs than Shaq. Kobe sucked when we played them in 2004.

Its like you people cant read, I never said Kobe was more important than Shaq, poster thinks Kobes should not count cause he had Shaq, thats ridiculous.

Jamiecballer
05-29-2015, 07:29 PM
Can we all just agree 50 wins isn't exactly a high bar to begin with

MonroeFAN
05-29-2015, 07:30 PM
Why is Shaq absent from this list?

Edit : ah sorry, seems like this has been discussed. Only Laker fans would think Kobe was more important to their championship runs than Shaq. Kobe sucked when we played them in 2004.

Its like you people cant read, I never said Kobe was more important than Shaq, poster thinks Kobes should not count cause he had Shaq, thats ridiculous.

I would refrain from questioning people's intelligence if I were you.

It's not ridiculous, Shaq is probably a top 5 player of all time.

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 07:30 PM
This is pretty much the way it always goes. I've never ever seen any other star have their teammates held against him like they do Kobe. Let the haters tell it Kobe, Bynum, and Odom were the original super team! LOL




Seriously the hate for Kobe on this site is disgusting. You litterally can not defend him with out the usual trolls coming in and saying he was nothing on those early Laker teams, I'm seriously over it....

Jamiecballer
05-29-2015, 07:31 PM
Its like you people cant read, I never said Kobe was more important than Shaq, poster thinks Kobes should not count cause he had Shaq, thats ridiculous.
Its an interesting factoid is all it is.

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 07:33 PM
I would refrain from questioning people's intelligence if I were you.

It's not ridiculous, Shaq is probably a top 5 player of all time.



WTF are you talking about, no one ever said Shaq wasnt top 5, and I do question your intelligence, you clearly can not read. You dont even know what your arguing about, other people were bringing up Shaq, I was simply saying Kobe was an important part to those teams..

Jamiecballer
05-29-2015, 07:41 PM
I don't think anybody disagrees that kobe was very important. I think for people who don't think those titles give him an advantage over LeBron it's more like was he critical or could a handful of other sg's have produced the same result.

Andrew32
05-29-2015, 07:42 PM
but lets stop acting like Kobe was a important part of those Championship teams.


Well no one should say that.
I certainly wouldn't discredit him like that.

Was Pippen not important on the 90's Bulls?
Was Drexler in 95 not important?
Was Wade in 12 not important?

He was extremely important and wouldn't have been easy to replace but at the same time we should be realistic about his factual performance level and role.

The only reason I even started the discussion is because someone tried pushing the ridiculous *Kobe carried them against the West myth* even though in reality he only had one Super-Star level WCF run during the 3peat (2001).

I was not trying to attack Kobe or his career.
I just don't like revisionist history.


this is about him saying Kobe shouldnt get credit for eliminating 50 win teams in 98, 00, and 02, that is all.

The only series from those years (off my head) that I wouldn't give him credit for is the one series from 98 and maybe his Finals series from 2000.

The other series he should get plenty of credit for though obviously there is a pretty big difference between beating a 50 win team "as the man/as a Super-Star" while having the majority of the mental pressure/opposing defense pressure compared to winning as an All-Star level supporting star without nearly as much mental pressure and without defenses geared towards you the same way.

Anyway chill out man. We're just talking basketball here. :cool:
No reason to get upset. I respect your opinions and either way you don't need anyone's approval ya know?
Believe what you feel is right and keep your mind open to other peoples perspectives.
More fun that way.

L8kers4life
05-29-2015, 07:51 PM
Well no one should say that.
I certainly wouldn't discredit him like that.

Was Pippen not important on the 90's Bulls?
Was Drexler in 95 not important?
Was Wade in 12 not important?

He was extremely important and wouldn't have been easy to replace but at the same time we should be realistic about his factual performance level and role.

The only reason I even started the discussion is because someone tried pushing the ridiculous *Kobe carried them against the West myth* even though in reality he only had one very good WCF run during the 3peat (2001).

I was not trying to attack Kobe or his career.
I just don't like revisionist history.



The only series from those years (off my head) that I wouldn't give him credit for is the one series from 98 and maybe his Finals series from 2000.

The other series he should get plenty of credit for though obviously there is a pretty big difference between beating a 50 win team "as the man/as a Super-Star" while having the majority of the mental pressure/opposing defense pressure compared to winning as an All-Star level supporting star without nearly as much mental pressure and without defenses geared towards you the same way.

Anyway chill out man. We're just talking basketball here. :cool:
No reason to get upset. I respect your opinions and either way you don't need anyone's approval ya know?
Believe what you feel is right and keep your mind open to other peoples perspectives.
More fun that way.

Thanks man, I agree with you, I'm getting defensive from so many people discrediting Kobe completely, I dont even like Kobe personally he's agreat player but I dont like him personally, I just feel a need to defend him because so many people are finding ways to say he sucks in one way or another, it has become annoying.

SirSkyHook
05-29-2015, 07:55 PM
I don't think anybody disagrees that kobe was very important. I think for people who don't think those titles give him an advantage over LeBron it's more like was he critical or could a handful of other sg's have produced the same result.

With us now knowing Kobe's talent level and overall body work he has had for his career, had he played his entire career in the East would he have had the same success or more than James? How would his advance stats look than? I believe he would have average MJ numbers but had Lebron type finals success, but we will never know will we.

SirSkyHook
05-29-2015, 08:00 PM
Is there any Advance stats that show players advance stats against 50 win teams or stats vs East and West? I know they have it for teams but what about players. Or is there a way to show advance stats vs second units vs starters. Point me that direction please.

JasonJohnHorn
05-29-2015, 08:10 PM
That's because his team seldom finished with the best record, like the Spurs, therefore they get more first-round match ups with good teams.

At the end of the day, Duncan's played more playoff games, won more playoff games, and has as many championships and more MVPs.

Teufelshunde4
05-29-2015, 08:29 PM
Stat was shown on the broadcast 2 nights ago, pretty surprised to Be honest.

Kobe with 24
Jordan with 20
Tim Duncan 18
Magic Johnson 13
Larry Bird 10
LeBron James 7

Surprised?



Thoughts?

I know it doesnt matter much, but i was surprised when i saw this stat.

This has more to do with Kobe being traded to a franchise on the upswing and some sustained dominance. Has ZERO to do with Kobe alone.... Kobe isnt singlehandedly responsible for all of the Lakers last 5 championships. Kobe has been blessed to play with a few HOFer's and a large amount of excellent role players coupled with a HOF coach.

Bruno
05-29-2015, 08:33 PM
Andrew, Kobe wasn't on Shaqs level in the years you're referencing. the numbers are all there.

Kobe was essential in a complimentary role in 2000 and 2002. In 2000, because thats what his role was as a 21 year old, in 2002 because he struggled, relative to his brilliance in 2001.

Wish Laker fans would concede the obvious stuff and spend more time debating stuff thats more interesting.

If I remember correctly when ESPN did the top finals performances ever, they provided analytics and put Kobe 2010 one spot in front of Pau 2010. they were almost identical, and of course a lot of Laker fans downplay Paus importance because its a perceived threat to Kobes role.

I don't see it like that. Pau was brilliant, he was statistically dominant. his rebounding in key games was amazing. he transformed into a lion against Boston in particular. See this is a part of my new angle, Kobes selfishness is overblown because the elite players around him don't have to change who they are to fit in with him, they get to be themselves and perform as themselves at levels that are so high we can actually compare them to Kobe, the undisputed leader of the team in later years. I doubt Chris Bosh and Kevin Love would see their PER, WS/48 and other advance lines fall off a cliff playing beside Kobe. I say that because we saw Pau dominate with Kobe. During the championship runs, nobody talked about Gasol as being a glorified role player, they talked about how dominant he was. And he was a guy who wasn't any more dominant on his own in a single season than Love or Bosh were with their original teams.

A statistical example of Kobes "selfishness" benefiting his own teammates.
http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/


Assists and ball movement suggest LBJ is the least selfish. But is it a purely unselfish system if the #2 and #3 have to take massive steps back in order for the team to achieve maximum levels of ability? I think you always max out individual ability and figure out a system to make that work. the one time LBJ had this system was 2011, when it was a balance between him and Wade. He couldn't figure it out and he averaged 17 ppg. He never got the chance for redemption within that dynamic because Wade took a step back.

I think thats an excellent basketball debate. whats the more sound philosophy for success? A team with a #1 who is so dominant and all encompassing that other excellent (Top 5 PER type) teammates have to play beneath their ability in a role that maximizes what the #1 brings, under a dynamic where the average role player has elevated impact OR a system that isn't as friendly to the teams average role player, but is superior in design for the teams #2 and #3 players. I'd like to see that concept get more attention. Do you want to build a team where 4-12 meshes perfectly with the #1 while accepting that your #2 and #3 stars will struggle in the system, or do you want a system where #2 and #3 get to play a style of basketball where they get to max out their ability, even if it comes at the hands of developing a nine-ten deep team team chemistry (another reason why Fisher was so important, he shined regardless).

I don't think the debate of whats selfish, whats unselfish, or what the best approach to team building and maximizing talent stop and ends with assist per game and assist%. We can't just look at Boshs and Loves numbers and suggest that LBJ needed more help in those scenarios because... look at their stats next to LeBron! This is a lot more complex than that.

Sactown
05-29-2015, 09:07 PM
Those Lakers team were straight dirty in the early 2000's they were dominate people tend to try to put it all on one guy, but without one of Shaq or Kobe the Lakers can't come out of the west with the Spurs Kings and other teams they were both pivotal and dangerous . Same with Pau and Kobe

KnicksorBust
05-29-2015, 09:40 PM
That's because his team seldom finished with the best record, like the Spurs, therefore they get more first-round match ups with good teams.

At the end of the day, Duncan's played more playoff games, won more playoff games, and has as many championships and more MVPs.

My list:

MJ
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe

Do you believe more people rank Kobe ahead of Duncan?

bluefire7002
05-29-2015, 11:25 PM
My list:

MJ
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe

Do you believe more people rank Kobe ahead of Duncan?

Id probably swap Wilt after duncan.

Bostonjorge
05-29-2015, 11:54 PM
I still can't believe James only beat seven good teams his whole playoff career. If James loses to the Warriors James will have a losing record against 50+ win playoff teams and a losing finals record. Just a little fun fact for you basketball fans.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-30-2015, 12:52 PM
I still can't believe James only beat seven good teams his whole playoff career. If James loses to the Warriors James will have a losing record against 50+ win playoff teams and a losing finals record. Just a little fun fact for you basketball fans.

I try to tell people that Lebron is the most overrated athlete in history and they think I'm playing. He gets unlimited credit for smashing weak teams and then his fans blame his supporting cast for getting smoked by good teams.

Goose17
05-30-2015, 12:59 PM
I try to tell people that Lebron is the most overrated athlete in history and they think I'm playing. He gets unlimited credit for smashing weak teams and then his fans blame his supporting cast for getting smoked by good teams.

I'm sure being a Lakers fan and Kobe fan boy doesn't effect your opinion at all.

mike_noodles
05-30-2015, 01:04 PM
The award for most irrelevant stat goes to...

koreancabbage
05-30-2015, 01:32 PM
I still can't believe James only beat seven good teams his whole playoff career. If James loses to the Warriors James will have a losing record against 50+ win playoff teams and a losing finals record. Just a little fun fact for you basketball fans.


I try to tell people that Lebron is the most overrated athlete in history and they think I'm playing. He gets unlimited credit for smashing weak teams and then his fans blame his supporting cast for getting smoked by good teams.


Illusionist, you try to tell a lot of people a lot of things. its okay.

Evil_Empire
05-30-2015, 01:43 PM
I still can't believe James only beat seven good teams his whole playoff career. If James loses to the Warriors James will have a losing record against 50+ win playoff teams and a losing finals record. Just a little fun fact for you basketball fans.

I guess by your definition the 1995 Houston Rockets were not a good team because they only won 47 games and the NBA Championship. Therefore, if they suck, the teams they beat also are terrible (two teams that won 60+ in Orlando and Utah, a 57 win Spurs team, and a 59 win Phoenix team.

The truth is that not all 50 win teams are that good and not all 40 win teams are that bad.

koreancabbage
05-30-2015, 01:49 PM
I still can't believe James only beat seven good teams his whole playoff career. If James loses to the Warriors James will have a losing record against 50+ win playoff teams and a losing finals record. Just a little fun fact for you basketball fans.

i can't believe its not butter.

MonroeFAN
05-30-2015, 02:00 PM
^:clap:

Bostonjorge
05-30-2015, 02:13 PM
I try to tell people that Lebron is the most overrated athlete in history and they think I'm playing. He gets unlimited credit for smashing weak teams and then his fans blame his supporting cast for getting smoked by good teams.
Yea blind sheep. James fans already making excuses for the finals. The series hasn't even started and already blaming the red hot cast James has. This banged up undedog Warriors team are going to steal this series.

LakersIn5
05-30-2015, 02:22 PM
Just goes to show the level of competition in the West the last 15+ years compared to the East. Duncan should be higher no doubt because of the lockouts.

I dont understand the lockout argument. Didnt kobe play in those 2 lockout seasons too?

Shlumpledink
05-30-2015, 02:22 PM
Having a lot of wins doesn't make a team good, but good teams get a lot of wins as well. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but it does add a little more information to the overall picture, the east is awful and it needs to be accounted for when comparing people.

Years from now that understanding may be lost on the newer generations and they'll look at Lebrons stats against other players stats as if they competed against the same level of talent, which they didn't. We see that happen with Jordan, so don't tell me it won't happen with Lebron

koreancabbage
05-30-2015, 04:23 PM
why don't we use the stat of beating a 62+ win, 75% winning pct team.

oh wait, Kobe hasn't done that before.

Kobe is overrated. Been telling you guys that.

Bostonjorge
05-30-2015, 04:34 PM
why don't we use the stat of beating a 62+ win, 75% winning pct team.

oh wait, Kobe hasn't done that before.

Kobe is overrated. Been telling you guys that.

Act like it then.

koreancabbage
05-30-2015, 04:42 PM
Act like it then.

lol cheers =D

Bruno
05-31-2015, 11:43 PM
why don't we use the stat of beating a 62+ win, 75% winning pct team.


LeBron has done that once. against the 2011 Bulls. LeBrons record against 62+ win teams is 1-3 (2014 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2006 Pistons) . He'll be 1-4 against 62+ win teams if Cleveland loses to Golden State.

dating back to the 2007 67 win Mavs team (8+ years ago) only three other teams out west have 62+ games won in a single season; the 2015 Warriors, 2014 Spurs, 2009 Lakers. So four teams with 62+ wins out west over an eight season period. In a conference that often flirts with sending eight 50 win teams to the playoffs, there's too much competition out west for a team to get 62+ wins.

Kobe is 0-3 all-time against teams with 62+ wins. He's lost against the 1997 Jazz (in 18.8 mpg as a rookie), the 1998 Jazz (in 21.8 mpg for the series as a sophomore) and the 2008 Boston Celtics. The only loss here you can hang over Kobes head is against the 2008 Celtics, a team that knocked out LBJ that same postseason.

in other words, it'd be a boring ESPN graphic. the list would be short, for all players. although sure, Id like to know. but good for LBJ for beating the 2011 62 win bulls in a best of seven.

LA_Raiders
06-01-2015, 12:28 AM
He is a killer, no fear. Others tend to shoke once they see true competition.

Munkeysuit
06-01-2015, 01:30 AM
Dam, thats a crazy stat AND a crazy amount of wins by the Mamba!

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 02:42 AM
I try to tell people that Lebron is the most overrated athlete in history and they think I'm playing. He gets unlimited credit for smashing weak teams and then his fans blame his supporting cast for getting smoked by good teams.

yet you dont have a rebuttal for him playing weaker teams but with 75 percent less talent around him than Kobe/MJ and every other current west teams superstar.... The west has better teams but they all have a ton of talent around them... Do you understand this logic or do you rather just be oblivious and hate? He is playing less talented teams but with alot less help... Even with bosh/wade there were alot more talent on the west teams... So example a curry is playing harder teams WITH A MUCH BETTER CAST OF PLAYERS AROUND HIM TO HELP CARRY THE LOAD.

You take any superstar off of their team out west and put him on the cavs and put lebron on that West team and James probably wins a title every year... You pick any of the 8 playoff teams out west and add James and take away their best player and they are a much better team.

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 02:46 AM
Yea blind sheep. James fans already making excuses for the finals. The series hasn't even started and already blaming the red hot cast James has. This banged up undedog Warriors team are going to steal this series.

ahahaha more hate... Red hot supporting cast? You do realize those warrior under dogs are the favorites by a good bit and you say they are banged up but forget James/Kyrie are hurt and Love is out until next year.

Supreme LA
06-01-2015, 04:45 AM
yet you dont have a rebuttal for him playing weaker teams but with 75 percent less talent around him than Kobe/MJ and every other current west teams superstar.... The west has better teams but they all have a ton of talent around them... Do you understand this logic or do you rather just be oblivious and hate? He is playing less talented teams but with alot less help... Even with bosh/wade there were alot more talent on the west teams... So example a curry is playing harder teams WITH A MUCH BETTER CAST OF PLAYERS AROUND HIM TO HELP CARRY THE LOAD.

You take any superstar off of their team out west and put him on the cavs and put lebron on that West team and James probably wins a title every year... You pick any of the 8 playoff teams out west and add James and take away their best player and they are a much better team.

That's a pretty absurd statement. I doubt you'll find anybody else here who would agree with you. While Lebron could make a team better in the West by substituting him in for another superstar that doesn't mean he would win a title every year. Please understand that battling through the West where every round each team is facing a possible contender is a grueling marathon just to reach the WCF. Certain things have to go your way and your team has to be play exceptionally well for 4 rounds to win a title.

Please don't get all butt hurt with my response but I just felt you were making a ridiculous statement. The East is nothing like the West. The West has been so tough over the last 15 yrs that it would have been possible that Lebron made no Finals appearances at all. That's actually more likely than your scenario in which you have him winning a title every year. That's how tough the West has been. Add to that Lebron also lost to the Mavericks who had less of a roster than the Miami Heat one year.

This isn't me hating on Lebron either. I just think you're logic and reasoning is false. And if you can't see that Lebron has pretty much cake walked to the Finals each year in the East over the past 5 years than you're seriously being ignorant.

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 06:03 AM
That's a pretty absurd statement. I doubt you'll find anybody else here who would agree with you. While Lebron could make a team better in the West by substituting him in for another superstar that doesn't mean he would win a title every year. Please understand that battling through the West where every round each team is facing a possible contender is a grueling marathon just to reach the WCF. Certain things have to go your way and your team has to be play exceptionally well for 4 rounds to win a title.

Please don't get all butt hurt with my response but I just felt you were making a ridiculous statement. The East is nothing like the West. The West has been so tough over the last 15 yrs that it would have been possible that Lebron made no Finals appearances at all. That's actually more likely than your scenario in which you have him winning a title every year. That's how tough the West has been. Add to that Lebron also lost to the Mavericks who had less of a roster than the Miami Heat one year.

This isn't me hating on Lebron either. I just think you're logic and reasoning is false. And if you can't see that Lebron has pretty much cake walked to the Finals each year in the East over the past 5 years than you're seriously being ignorant.

I am not disagreeing the west is better but you and other laker fans in this thread are just using the conferences as excuses and not factoring in anything else... James has not had any more of a cake walk in the East than other superstars out west EXCEPT for the first rounds... Lets use this year as an example... Are the bulls/hawks/Wizards as good as the west teams? No of course not but does James have anywhere near the help that each and every west playoff team has for their superstars? Why are you guys not understanding this logic... You cant sit here and say Lebron has caked walked through the east because its a weaker conference and use the west as the example of other teams playing tougher competition and not factor in that the west teams are loaded... The west is tougher... BECAUSE THE TEAMS ARE LOADED...Do you understand? It might seem like James is cake walking through an easier conference but his quest through the playoffs is no different than currys this year or Duncan last year... BECAUSE THE SUPERSTARS OUT WEST HAVE MUCH MORE HELP ON THEIR TEAMS AND ALL AROUND BETTER TEAMS... Do you understand? You cant sit here and say the west is deeper but give credit to superstars out west for beating tougher teams when they themselves have a ton more help... If you put James on a west contender he wins a chip every damn year... Its logical.... He would play tougher teams but he would be on a team with 5 times the talent he has right now and more talent than he has ever had even with a Bosh/wade. My god i dont understand how people can use the western conference is tougher crutch and negate the help those superstars have.

Is the east easier? Yes
Is Lebrons path to the finals easier when compared to other superstars? Absolutely not
Why? Because yes he is playing weaker teams but with less than half the help. I am not being butthurt or angry with you supreme because I like you. I just get annoyed when people use this logic as a crutch but disregaurd the talent that superstars out west have around them... All the teams that have made it to the finals or won championships out west over the past 20 years were some of the best teams ever.. Spurs/Lakers/Jazz/Thunder.... Those teams had a ridiculous amount of talent around their superstar... The only team who didn't are the mavs. So no Lebron hasnt had it easier nor has it been a cake walk because even with the big 3 of Wade/James/Bosh they still werent close to all around as deep as a Western conference power house.

Chronz
06-01-2015, 11:21 AM
Nobody is discerditing Shaq, but lets stop acting like Kobe was a important part of those Championship teams. This isnt an argument of who is better Shaq or Kobe, this is about him saying Kobe shouldnt get credit for eliminating 50 win teams in 98, 00, and 02, that is all.
Yes. Lets...
?

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 12:42 PM
I think it has to be taken into account when analyzing James legacy and providing context to the whole 5 straight Finals thing. I don't think James took out one first ballot HOFer in his prime during any one of those 5 finals runs. The only HOFers he faced were in the Finals - where he went 2-2.

koreancabbage
06-01-2015, 01:36 PM
I think it has to be taken into account when analyzing James legacy and providing context to the whole 5 straight Finals thing. I don't think James took out one first ballot HOFer in his prime during any one of those 5 finals runs. The only HOFers he faced were in the Finals - where he went 2-2.

he did, once who is Duncan. and maybe Durant as the second if Durant stays healthy.

Spurs had the way better team last year and it showed. Winning 4-1. Everything was going the way Spurs imagined it would have gone. I just think all the teams in the west are built better with more talent and better benches in the East and I think everyone can agree with that.

Even the superstars themselves, like Lebron, need the proverbial 'help'.

In Miami, you can make a case that Lebron's team was built on 'talented individuals' rather than fit.

In another case, I would say in every Lebron James finals runs, the other team actually had a better 'team' than Lebron's team although individual talent of Miami would sometimes outweigh the other team's. This year included- Warriors have the better team. Last year, Spurs had the better team, Mavericks had a better "team concept" team filled with veterans. Even the Thunder had a better team albeit inexperience. Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka, Harden, Reggie Jackson, Sefolosha (this was a stacked team, unbeknownst to the GM and coach back then)

The teams in the West are just simply better. You can definitely 'get by' with just a superstar in the East.

However, because of James, we can imagine: I just don't see Chris Paul replacing a team's best player in the East and taking that team to the Finals 5 times. Duncan. Durant. Curry. Harden. Anthony Davis etc.

Hotone1401
06-01-2015, 02:03 PM
I am not disagreeing the west is better but you and other laker fans in this thread are just using the conferences as excuses and not factoring in anything else... James has not had any more of a cake walk in the East than other superstars out west EXCEPT for the first rounds... Lets use this year as an example... Are the bulls/hawks/Wizards as good as the west teams? No of course not but does James have anywhere near the help that each and every west playoff team has for their superstars? Why are you guys not understanding this logic... You cant sit here and say Lebron has caked walked through the east because its a weaker conference and use the west as the example of other teams playing tougher competition and not factor in that the west teams are loaded... The west is tougher... BECAUSE THE TEAMS ARE LOADED...Do you understand? It might seem like James is cake walking through an easier conference but his quest through the playoffs is no different than currys this year or Duncan last year... BECAUSE THE SUPERSTARS OUT WEST HAVE MUCH MORE HELP ON THEIR TEAMS AND ALL AROUND BETTER TEAMS... Do you understand? You cant sit here and say the west is deeper but give credit to superstars out west for beating tougher teams when they themselves have a ton more help... If you put James on a west contender he wins a chip every damn year... Its logical.... He would play tougher teams but he would be on a team with 5 times the talent he has right now and more talent than he has ever had even with a Bosh/wade. My god i dont understand how people can use the western conference is tougher crutch and negate the help those superstars have.

Is the east easier? Yes
Is Lebrons path to the finals easier when compared to other superstars? Absolutely not
Why? Because yes he is playing weaker teams but with less than half the help. I am not being butthurt or angry with you supreme because I like you. I just get annoyed when people use this logic as a crutch but disregaurd the talent that superstars out west have around them... All the teams that have made it to the finals or won championships out west over the past 20 years were some of the best teams ever.. Spurs/Lakers/Jazz/Thunder.... Those teams had a ridiculous amount of talent around their superstar... The only team who didn't are the mavs. So no Lebron hasnt had it easier nor has it been a cake walk because even with the big 3 of Wade/James/Bosh they still werent close to all around as deep as a Western conference power house.

It's clear you're not even reading my arguments before you even post because I've already addressed all your point. You're wrong again. Lebron's teams have been loaded in Miami and he has cake walked to the finals. You suggesting that his team in Miami wasn't loaded is your own assertion, not a fact. Miami was extremely deep.

All your arguments are false. It also would help if you used paragraphs. I can see we're not going to see eye to eye so we'll just agree to disagree.

MonroeFAN
06-01-2015, 02:05 PM
Act like it then.


Act like what? What on earth are you talking about?

Your grasp of basketball knowledge is tenuous at best. I don't know why we have to hear your comments on everything that is Lebron James. To everyone who isn't 12, it's very clear that you're just a troll. You're not even good at it.

What a sad existence.

koreancabbage
06-01-2015, 02:05 PM
You're wrong again. Lebron's teams have been loaded in Miami and he has cake walked to the finals. You suggesting that his team in Miami wasn't loaded is your own assertion, not a fact. Miami was extremely deep.

All your arguments are false. It also would help if you used paragraphs. I can see we're not going to see eye to eye so we'll just agree to disagree.

they had Wade Bosh and Lebron. thats about it. It was more about individual talent than team talent. You can definitely win by talent than team in the East.

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 02:12 PM
he did, once who is Duncan. and maybe Durant as the second if Durant stays healthy.

Spurs had the way better team last year and it showed. Winning 4-1. Everything was going the way Spurs imagined it would have gone. I just think all the teams in the west are built better with more talent and better benches in the East and I think everyone can agree with that.

Even the superstars themselves, like Lebron, need the proverbial 'help'.

In Miami, you can make a case that Lebron's team was built on 'talented individuals' rather than fit.

In another case, I would say in every Lebron James finals runs, the other team actually had a better 'team' than Lebron's team although individual talent of Miami would sometimes outweigh the other team's. This year included- Warriors have the better team. Last year, Spurs had the better team, Mavericks had a better "team concept" team filled with veterans. Even the Thunder had a better team albeit inexperience. Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka, Harden, Reggie Jackson, Sefolosha (this was a stacked team, unbeknownst to the GM and coach back then)

The teams in the West are just simply better. You can definitely 'get by' with just a superstar in the East.

However, because of James, we can imagine: I just don't see Chris Paul replacing a team's best player in the East and taking that team to the Finals 5 times. Duncan. Durant. Curry. Harden. Anthony Davis etc.

When I say run to the the Finals I am talking about the run through the East he makes on his way to the Finals. I thought I spelled that out clearly in my post but I guess not. LeBron's "5 straight Finals" that we keep hearing out is about as watered down as it gets and the combined winning % of the teams he faced is probably closer to .500 than it is to .600 and I can't think of one HOFer in his prime he had to face along the way.

The only true comp he gets is once he makes the Finals, and he has shown he is very beatable once he faces that true competition.

I get the Spurs were better last year, they played like a better team, but you sound sad trying to say LeBron didn't have enough help during his Miami tenure to do more damage in the Finals than he did. If you want to say those squads with less talent played like a better "team", you have to give LeBron a fair amount of the blame for handpicking his HOF teammates and not being able to get the most out of them.

My overall point was, if you weigh the crappy competition LeBron beat on his way to the Finals, with the struggles he faced against some of that crappy competition, along with the losses he took when he finally faced some all time great talent, its not too difficult to surmise he wouldn't have made the Finals in a lot of those years if he was playing legitimate talent in round 2 and 3 like the greats he is being compared to and leapfrogging as a result of these 5 straight runs did.

Hotone1401
06-01-2015, 02:14 PM
they had Wade Bosh and Lebron. thats about it. It was more about individual talent than team talent. You can definitely win by talent than team in the East.

Except that he's had Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, James Jones, Udonis Haslem, as well as Chris Anderson and Mario Chalmers to add defense. You're telling me a team with these players along with Lebron, Bosh, and Wade aren't deep?

Sure they were lacking in the center position but that's was more by design and due to the fact they chose to sign 3 stars. This team can be argued to have a better roster than many teams out West today

MonroeFAN
06-01-2015, 02:17 PM
Holy crap, Mario Chalmers & Chris Andersen?

MO FO Rashard Lewis?!

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 02:18 PM
they had Wade Bosh and Lebron. thats about it. It was more about individual talent than team talent. You can definitely win by talent than team in the East.

Come on, they had some of the best shooters in the league every single year, great dirty work role players like Haslem, Battier, Anderson and Ray Freakin' Allen being added to a team that already won a title. They had every single recipe you need for a title team except a true C and they made up for that and than some with their grade A role players and HOF trio.

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 02:22 PM
Holy crap, Mario Chalmers & Chris Andersen?

MO FO Rashard Lewis?!

Were talking about 8th and 9th men type of role players. Guys who barely touch the ball and just need to do the little things. Those guys are very good when it comes to that. Chalmers hit a ton of big shots during those runs and dropped 33 in a Finals game for them if I'm not mistaken and Birdman was exactly the type of role playing big they needed.

You are acting like they needed MORE HOF talent to round out the lineup or something. Look at the some of the role players MJ and Kobe had on their squad as 7th, 8th and 9th guys for comparison. Nobody has world beaters at those positions - both Chalmers and Anderson played their roles great for Miami.

Supreme LA
06-01-2015, 02:46 PM
I am not disagreeing the west is better but you and other laker fans in this thread are just using the conferences as excuses and not factoring in anything else... James has not had any more of a cake walk in the East than other superstars out west EXCEPT for the first rounds... Lets use this year as an example... Are the bulls/hawks/Wizards as good as the west teams? No of course not but does James have anywhere near the help that each and every west playoff team has for their superstars? Why are you guys not understanding this logic... You cant sit here and say Lebron has caked walked through the east because its a weaker conference and use the west as the example of other teams playing tougher competition and not factor in that the west teams are loaded... The west is tougher... BECAUSE THE TEAMS ARE LOADED...Do you understand? It might seem like James is cake walking through an easier conference but his quest through the playoffs is no different than currys this year or Duncan last year... BECAUSE THE SUPERSTARS OUT WEST HAVE MUCH MORE HELP ON THEIR TEAMS AND ALL AROUND BETTER TEAMS... Do you understand? You cant sit here and say the west is deeper but give credit to superstars out west for beating tougher teams when they themselves have a ton more help... If you put James on a west contender he wins a chip every damn year... Its logical.... He would play tougher teams but he would be on a team with 5 times the talent he has right now and more talent than he has ever had even with a Bosh/wade. My god i dont understand how people can use the western conference is tougher crutch and negate the help those superstars have.

Is the east easier? Yes
Is Lebrons path to the finals easier when compared to other superstars? Absolutely not
Why? Because yes he is playing weaker teams but with less than half the help. I am not being butthurt or angry with you supreme because I like you. I just get annoyed when people use this logic as a crutch but disregaurd the talent that superstars out west have around them... All the teams that have made it to the finals or won championships out west over the past 20 years were some of the best teams ever.. Spurs/Lakers/Jazz/Thunder.... Those teams had a ridiculous amount of talent around their superstar... The only team who didn't are the mavs. So no Lebron hasnt had it easier nor has it been a cake walk because even with the big 3 of Wade/James/Bosh they still werent close to all around as deep as a Western conference power house.

So this guy's argument is basically if Lebron had the deepest team and strongest rosters he would win the championship every year. I'm pretty sure that applies to many superstars in our league. It doesn't guarantee them a championship but they would certainly be the favorite. And how is this not been Lebron's motive over the last 5 years? Colluding with friends? Stacking his team now in Cleveland? This is exactly what has defined Lebron for the past 5 years, trying to get the best possible roster so that he could cake walk to finals and win a title. You're actually proving my point.

Aside from this point, none of your arguments actually address the scenario of Lebron playing out West directly. You are merely making up hypotheticals to answer the question and we can do that all day.

And stop generalizing all Laker fans. There are a few of us who can argue without bias and appear to have more logic than you.

Supreme LA
06-01-2015, 02:49 PM
Holy crap, Mario Chalmers & Chris Andersen?

MO FO Rashard Lewis?!

Mario Chalmers didn't come up big for the Heat team in the postseason? He didn't play good defense? Chris Anderson didn't play any good defense either?

Rashard also came up big in the Finals and in many moments during the postseason. It's clear you have no recollection of the games that were played. In no way is anyone suggesting these players are stars because Lebron's had enough of those. We're talking about depth and depth entails any added dimensions a player can add to a team as a whole.

I can already tell by your tone and the way you discredit his teammates that you're going to be another Lebron apologist. No need to even respond because you would simply be talking in circles making points that have no merit.

Supreme LA
06-01-2015, 02:57 PM
It's crazy how Lebron fans always find a way to blame Lebron's teammates as if he has any resemblance of a weak cast during his title runs. Only Lebron apologists manage to do this. If Lebron wins, he's the GOAT. If he loses, it's the fault of his teammates.

I wonder if we would say the same thing about MJ's teammates? MJ didn't always have the best supporting cast. Like Lebron , MJ had Pippen and Rodman as stars. If MJ came up short, would his fans blame Steve Kerr? Ron Harper? BJ armstrong? Bill Cartwright?

The nerve of these Lebron apologists.

Bostonjorge
06-01-2015, 03:36 PM
Act like what? What on earth are you talking about?

Your grasp of basketball knowledge is tenuous at best. I don't know why we have to hear your comments on everything that is Lebron James. To everyone who isn't 12, it's very clear that you're just a troll. You're not even good at it.

What a sad existence.
Act like it.

valade16
06-01-2015, 03:41 PM
It's crazy how Lebron fans always find a way to blame Lebron's teammates as if he has any resemblance of a weak cast during his title runs. Only Lebron apologists manage to do this. If Lebron wins, he's the GOAT. If he loses, it's the fault of his teammates.

I wonder if we would say the same thing about MJ's teammates? MJ didn't always have the best supporting cast. Like Lebron , MJ had Pippen and Rodman as stars. If MJ came up short, would his fans blame Steve Kerr? Ron Harper? BJ armstrong? Bill Cartwright?

The nerve of these Lebron apologists.

Ironic you bring up that iteration of the MJ's Bulls because according to at least this:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

MJ's 96 supporting cast was the best of any Finals team since 1985. The other 2 Rodman Bulls teams were both Top 10 as well.

But you do have a point, MJ's first 3-peat his team wasn't as good as his 2nd, in fact it was the 4th worst (and 3rd worst team) supporting cast to actually win the title (behind Hakeem's Rockets and Dirk's Mavs).

I think the "Bron Battle" between his apologists and haters is humorous because in most cases, both of what they're saying is true.

LeBron has had some incredibly weak supporting casts for Finals teams and contenders
The East during LeBron's runs was for the most part, incredibly weak

Shouldn't those balance out a little?

lol, please
06-01-2015, 04:06 PM
Ironic you bring up that iteration of the MJ's Bulls because according to at least this:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

MJ's 96 supporting cast was the best of any Finals team since 1985. The other 2 Rodman Bulls teams were both Top 10 as well.

But you do have a point, MJ's first 3-peat his team wasn't as good as his 2nd, in fact it was the 4th worst (and 3rd worst team) supporting cast to actually win the title (behind Hakeem's Rockets and Dirk's Mavs).

I think the "Bron Battle" between his apologists and haters is humorous because in most cases, both of what they're saying is true.

LeBron has had some incredibly weak supporting casts for Finals teams and contenders
The East during LeBron's runs was for the most part, incredibly weak

Shouldn't those balance out a little?

It does even out, until you factor in Kobes longevity, the gap in intangibles like leadership, where Kobe wins by a landslide, and how one is a ship jumping ring chaser with no accountability and the other is willing to "ride or die" for the franchise he played his first game with.

koreancabbage
06-01-2015, 04:27 PM
It does even out, until you factor in Kobes longevity, the gap in intangibles like leadership, where Kobe wins by a landslide, and how one is a ship jumping ring chaser with no accountability and the other is willing to "ride or die" for the franchise he played his first game with.

no one likes Kobe. everyone likes LA. Kobe wins in a landslide of being the most hated athlete.

Everyone loves Lebron because he's a better team-mate growing as a better leader

Lebron left.... but was still targeted as the main culprit as why all his teams lost or won. that's his accountability.

Chronz
06-01-2015, 04:29 PM
It does even out, until you factor in Kobes longevity, the gap in intangibles like leadership, where Kobe wins by a landslide, and how one is a ship jumping ring chaser with no accountability and the other is willing to "ride or die" for the franchise he played his first game with.

lol, joke?

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 04:49 PM
no one likes Kobe. everyone likes LA. Kobe wins in a landslide of being the most hated athlete.

Everyone loves Lebron because he's a better team-mate growing as a better leader

Lebron left.... but was still targeted as the main culprit as why all his teams lost or won. that's his accountability.

IDK if that's true at all. I think there is a small generational gap. I am 27 and all my friends love Kobe and hate LeBron. I think if you are in the 19-22 range you probably love LeBron and hate Kobe. My generation of friends turned to the Lakers while the Knicks were stinking it up in the 2000s so it might be more apparent in my geographical area of Long Island where we don't bleed Knicks quite like NYC but I think most people my age love Kobe because thats who we grew up on. People 5-7 years younger are probably the LeBronites. It only takes a couple years for a torch to be passed in that regard.

valade16
06-01-2015, 04:49 PM
It does even out, until you factor in Kobes longevity, the gap in intangibles like leadership, where Kobe wins by a landslide, and how one is a ship jumping ring chaser with no accountability and the other is willing to "ride or die" for the franchise he played his first game with.

Just because he has been a Laker his whole life doesn't mean he was willing to "Ride or Die" with them at all times.

He requested to be traded remember? You don't say "I want to go somewhere else" if you're busy 'ridin' and dyin'...

I mean it works both ways.

In the same way that LeBron was in a weak Eastern Conference but had terrible supporting casts in Cleveland, Kobe was in a stacked Western Conference, however he was oftentimes on the most stacked team in that conference.

It evens out.

valade16
06-01-2015, 04:52 PM
IDK if that's true. I think there is a small generational gap. I am 27 and all my friends love Kobe and hate LeBron. I think if you are in the 19-22 range you probably love LeBron and hate Kobe. My generation of friends turned to the Lakers while the Knicks were stinking it up in the 2000s so it might be more apparent in my geographical area of Long Island where we don't bleed Knicks quite like NYC but I think most people my age love Kobe because thats who we grew up on. People 5-7 years younger are probably the LeBronites. It only takes a couple years for a torch to be passed in that regard.

I'm 27 and I think LeBron has been better. As a Blazer fan growing up the one thing I remember about the early 00's Lakers was Shaq, not Kobe. It'd be like if people remembered the Heat's Championships because of how good Wade played instead of Bron. It'd make it tough to look at Bron as this sensational player when he was clearly #2 on his best teams. That's just me though.

Chronz
06-01-2015, 04:54 PM
Just because he has been a Laker his whole life doesn't mean he was willing to "Ride or Die" with them at all times.

He requested to be traded remember? You don't say "I want to go somewhere else" if you're busy 'ridin' and dyin'...

I mean it works both ways.

In the same way that LeBron was in a weak Eastern Conference but had terrible supporting casts in Cleveland, Kobe was in a stacked Western Conference, however he was oftentimes on the most stacked team in that conference.

It evens out.

hes also trashed his teammates, was so poisonous/egotistical that his coach tried to get him traded numerous times for holding the team back and he forced his way to a big market before ever playing a game. not seeing this gap they speak of.

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 05:02 PM
I'm 27 and I think LeBron has been better. As a Blazer fan growing up the one thing I remember about the early 00's Lakers was Shaq, not Kobe. It'd be like if people remembered the Heat's Championships because of how good Wade played instead of Bron. It'd make it tough to look at Bron as this sensational player when he was clearly #2 on his best teams. That's just me though.

I think LeBron is better too. I was responding to the notion that "Kobe is the most hated athlete" and "everyone loves LeBron". I think a lot of people think LeBron is a chump and Kobe is badass. Not saying they are in the right or the wrong for saying that, but I think that is a pretty large general perception for people my age. I do think LeBron has shown to be a fearful mental midget numerous times on monster stages and Kobe is as fearless as they come to a fault but I do think LeBron is better on the all time list - now and tomorrow. I can hear an argument that Kobe is better now, but barring something completely insane in his final year(s), LeBron is going to finish higher than Kobe when it's all said and done and will likely be the #2 or #3. I don't think he's got a shot at #1 though and I don't think its too early to say that, too many chinks in his armor during his prime whereas once MJ his his stride he was bulletproof.

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 05:04 PM
You can say Kobe was a prick and LeBron is the nice guy, but that doesn't mean everyone roots for the nice guy. MJ was a douche to teammates and females too. A lot of people like the anti-hero who they think is a badass dude, the same way some people rooted for Walter White and some people rooted for Jessie. I personally rooted for Walter until the very end.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2015, 05:11 PM
I think LeBron is better too. I was responding to the notion that "Kobe is the most hated athlete" and "everyone loves LeBron". I think a lot of people think LeBron is a chump and Kobe is badass. Not saying they are in the right or the wrong for saying that, but I think that is a pretty large general perception for people my age. I do think LeBron has shown to be a fearful mental midget numerous times on monster stages and Kobe is as fearless as they come to a fault but I do think LeBron is better on the all time list - now and tomorrow. I can hear an argument that Kobe is better now, but barring something completely insane in his final year(s), LeBron is going to finish higher than Kobe when it's all said and done and will likely be the #2 or #3. I don't think he's got a shot at #1 though and I don't think its too early to say that, too many chinks in his armor during his prime whereas once MJ his his stride he was bulletproof.


Kobe the most hated? Omg no. The only reason I even started rooting for LeBron around 6-7 years ago, is he was getting A-Rod/Tiger hate. Like, wtf for? I never understood it.

Anti-Laker fans (there are tons of them) dislike Kobe, even if they respect his game. LeBron got so much unwarranted hate, I never understood it. Sure he sucks at public speaking, and sometimes says things that come off wrong. But by all accounts, he is a good guy and teammate.

You are free to hate anyone for any reason you see fit. I was just blown away that James was hated nationwide, and has never been in trouble, or said anything that just pisses people off.

Meh

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 05:19 PM
It does even out, until you factor in Kobes longevity, the gap in intangibles like leadership, where Kobe wins by a landslide, and how one is a ship jumping ring chaser with no accountability and the other is willing to "ride or die" for the franchise he played his first game with.

until he didnt get what he wanted and threatened to leave the lakers because he couldn't deal with for once not having a stacked team around him... Or did you just forget all of this?

D-Leethal
06-01-2015, 05:22 PM
Kobe the most hated? Omg no. The only reason I even started rooting for LeBron around 6-7 years ago, is he was getting A-Rod/Tiger hate. Like, wtf for? I never understood it.

Anti-Laker fans (there are tons of them) dislike Kobe, even if they respect his game. LeBron got so much unwarranted hate, I never understood it. Sure he sucks at public speaking, and sometimes says things that come off wrong. But by all accounts, he is a good guy and teammate.

You are free to hate anyone for any reason you see fit. I was just blown away that James was hated nationwide, and has never been in trouble, or said anything that just pisses people off.

Meh

For me it's all the theatrics with LeBron. Dude just comes off as fake and always looking for more attention. Everything is forced and nothing seems genuine with that dude. I respect the hell out of his game - when I bash him its always his mindset and not his skills.

It's clear when the public started to turn on LeBron though and it was when he left for Miami, went front-running towards easy championships as fast as he possibly could and mocked the rest of the NBA before he played a single game with his new teammates. Rather than be modest about it he set the expectations so high during said mockery he couldn't even go out there and back it up. That gave posters like me ammo to laugh at poke fun at his failures when they inevitably occurred and that is why people want to see him fail. Of course it's all water under the bridge, I understand it was 5 years ago, but once he did what he did the way he did he put a target on his back for life. That is just how it is. He should have been smarter.

Bruno
06-01-2015, 05:22 PM
Just because he has been a Laker his whole life doesn't mean he was willing to "Ride or Die" with them at all times.

He requested to be traded remember? You don't say "I want to go somewhere else" if you're busy 'ridin' and dyin'...

I mean it works both ways.
thats how leverage works.

he put pressure on the front office and they produced a diamond (developing Bynum, trading for Gasol, Fisher and Ariza). Requesting the trade was still to this date the smartest off court decision he's made in his career. laker fans are grateful that he helped the franchise get it together one last time for Dr. Buss. it put a fire under a couple of trust fund kids who were in the process of taking over for their dad. it resulted in back-to-back championships. i don't buy this point as a rebuttal to what you were responding to. at the end of the day he's a 20 year Laker and if you want to refute that concept because of the trade speculation that lasted for a few weeks in summer 2007, it's a weak argument. just because he was ready to leave, doesn't mean that was his goal. the Lakers made a promise to him in 2004 that they hadn't made good on yet, i'm glad he kept them honest.



In the same way that LeBron was in a weak Eastern Conference but had terrible supporting casts in Cleveland, Kobe was in a stacked Western Conference, however he was oftentimes on the most stacked team in that conference.

How many times in Kobes career have the Lakers had the best record in the west?

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 05:22 PM
Kobe the most hated? Omg no. The only reason I even started rooting for LeBron around 6-7 years ago, is he was getting A-Rod/Tiger hate. Like, wtf for? I never understood it.

Anti-Laker fans (there are tons of them) dislike Kobe, even if they respect his game. LeBron got so much unwarranted hate, I never understood it. Sure he sucks at public speaking, and sometimes says things that come off wrong. But by all accounts, he is a good guy and teammate.

You are free to hate anyone for any reason you see fit. I was just blown away that James was hated nationwide, and has never been in trouble, or said anything that just pisses people off.

Meh

I actually feel bad for the next guy to make a run at GOAT.... Kobe/Jordan got passes because they weren't in their primes when social media became a thing... Neither would be able to deal with the hate that James has had to deal with... James is easily the most hated superstar I have ever seen and its undeserving... Jordan lovers hate him because he is the closet thing to goat since Jordan and Kobe fans hate him because he has passed him or will pass him... Thats like 90 percent of all basketball fans right there lol.

kdspurman
06-01-2015, 05:25 PM
For me it's all the theatrics with LeBron. Dude just comes off as fake and always looking for more attention. Everything is forced and nothing seems genuine with that dude. I respect the hell out of his game - when I bash him its always his mindset and not his skills.

My exact sentiments as well. I think sometimes folks get the 2 confused (going on your last line)

Jayb587
06-01-2015, 05:27 PM
what shaq said

Jamiecballer
06-01-2015, 05:30 PM
no one likes Kobe. everyone likes LA. Kobe wins in a landslide of being the most hated athlete.

Everyone loves Lebron because he's a better team-mate growing as a better leader

Lebron left.... but was still targeted as the main culprit as why all his teams lost or won. that's his accountability.

i know a lot of people that don't like Lebron but i agree that Kobe wins that race in a landslide.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2015, 05:39 PM
For me it's all the theatrics with LeBron. Dude just comes off as fake and always looking for more attention. Everything is forced and nothing seems genuine with that dude. I respect the hell out of his game - when I bash him its always his mindset and not his skills.

It's clear when the public started to turn on LeBron though and it was when he left for Miami, went front-running towards easy championships as fast as he possibly could and mocked the rest of the NBA before he played a single game with his new teammates. Rather than be modest about it he set the expectations so high during said mockery he couldn't even go out there and back it up. That gave posters like me ammo to laugh at poke fun at his failures when they inevitably occurred and that is why people want to see him fail. Of course it's all water under the bridge, I understand it was 5 years ago, but once he did what he did the way he did he put a target on his back for life. That is just how it is. He should have been smarter.

I sensed it even prior to that. "He ain't no Kobe or Michael, can't win ****". Uh, Mo Williams is his wingman....

Like I said, you, me, the next guy, can hate a player for whatever they want. For me, I think he gave Cleveland 7 years to get it right. They didn't. See ya. The way he did it will always burn some people, I can understand that. But fans also really, truly need to understand that basketball is a business first, game 2nd. You can't just let your legacy come to you as a man in the workforce. Why is the NBA any different? You need to chase things many times.

You also wanted a 25 year old who has never been told no in his life and had people latched onto his *** to be "smarter"? haha, these are athletes.

koreancabbage
06-01-2015, 05:55 PM
i know a lot of people that don't like Lebron but i agree that Kobe wins that race in a landslide.

Lebron values the success of his peers rather than himself. He loves seeing his teammates do well. Which is also why he gets flak for it.

Kobe values his own success first rather than his peers. He's either overpassing or overshooting and getting his own first. He's never a pass first type of guy and never shot he didn't like. Which is also why he gets flak for it.

thats how I perceive the two. Both have leadership style

KMackSackAttack
06-01-2015, 06:15 PM
Top 5 player ever! Better then Lebron all-time still yeah come at me Lebron lovers, mostly anyone in the nba that has played has always said kobe over Lebron even shaq just said that! Lebron needs 2 more rings to pass kobe in my book

GREATNESS ONE
06-01-2015, 06:22 PM
Act like what? What on earth are you talking about?

Your grasp of basketball knowledge is tenuous at best. I don't know why we have to hear your comments on everything that is Lebron James. To everyone who isn't 12, it's very clear that you're just a troll. You're not even good at it.

What a sad existence.

:yawn: that was pointless.

GREATNESS ONE
06-01-2015, 06:23 PM
Top 5 player ever! Better then Lebron all-time still yeah come at me Lebron lovers, mostly anyone in the nba that has played has always said kobe over Lebron even shaq just said that! Lebron needs 2 more rings to pass kobe in my book

Kobe is 5-6 on the list, Lebron is 8-10.

FraziersKnicks
06-01-2015, 06:27 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106132/how-does-james-compare-with-other-nba-greats?ex_cid=espnFB


Usually around this time of the NBA season, the topic of “LeBron James vs. (insert the name of another great)” as best all-time player comes up for debate. No doubt, someone somewhere is considering that question now.

One of the angles debaters often take is, “Player X had to beat so many better players than Player Y en route to his titles.”

We asked the Elias Sports Bureau to look at the postseason careers of Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan and determine how many Hall of Famers each of them eliminated from the playoffs. They used the guideline that the Hall of Famer in question must have played at least one postseason game that season.

Also, players could count multiple times. For example, Jordan eliminated Karl Malone and John Stockton in both the 1997 and 1998 NBA Finals, so that counts as four Hall of Famers eliminated, not two.

On a per-series-win basis, Magic Johnson eliminated more Hall of Famers than Larry Bird did.

Here’s how Bird, Magic and Jordan compare with one another:

NBA Playoff Careers

Larry Bird: 164 games, 24-9 W-L, 34 HOFer's eliminated, 1.42 HOFer's eliminated per win
Magic Johnson: 190 games, 32-8 W-L, 35 HOFer's eliminated, 1.09 HOFer's eliminated per win
Michael Jordan: 179 games, 30-7 W-L, 27 HOFer's eliminated, 0.90 HOFer's eliminated per win

Some takeaways:

• Bird played an average of almost exactly one Hall of Fame player per series, and every time he eliminated an opponent, that opponent averaged almost 1.5 Hall of Famers.

• Johnson won more series than Bird or Jordan and eliminated more Hall of Famers than either of them, and for every series he won, he eliminated a little more than one Hall of Famer on average.

• Jordan won more titles than either Bird or Johnson, but he faced far fewer Hall of Famers en route to these wins. His 30 series wins eliminated 27 Hall of Famers, an average of less than one per series win.

How does LeBron stack up?

Now let’s bring James into the discussion. It is obviously murkier because the opponents he is playing against aren’t eligible for the Hall of Fame, much less in it. Here’s where he stands:

LeBron James Playoff Career

172 games, 26-7 series W-L record, ? HOFer's eliminated

For the purposes of this debate, how do we figure out how many Hall of Famers James has eliminated?

We conducted a highly nonscientific poll within ESPN’s Production Research department on whether the players James has eliminated are bound for the Hall of Fame based on their current career track.

Understandably, a lot of liberties were taken. For instance, we assigned Kawhi Leonard as a Hall of Famer based on his current career track. We were liberal with these assessments rather than strict, just to give benefit of the doubt to James.

We in Production Research came up with 26 Hall of Famers eliminated by James, a number that obviously can grow (and that can differ from what you come up with).

So, based on the voting by Production Research, here’s what an updated list comparing these NBA greats could look like:

NBA Playoff Careers

Larry Bird: 164 games, 24-9 W-L, 34 HOFer's eliminated, 1.42 HOFer's eliminated per win
Magic Johnson: 190 games, 32-8 W-L, 35 HOFer's eliminated, 1.09 HOFer's eliminated per win
Michael Jordan: 179 games, 30-7 W-L, 27 HOFer's eliminated, 0.90 HOFer's eliminated per win
LeBron James: 172 games, 26-7 W-L, 26 (projected) HOFer's eliminated, 1.00 HOFer's eliminated per win

Happy debating.

Thought this was interesting and relevant.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-01-2015, 06:41 PM
i know a lot of people that don't like Lebron but i agree that Kobe wins that race in a landslide.

Lebron values the success of his peers rather than himself. He loves seeing his teammates do well. Which is also why he gets flak for it.

Kobe values his own success first rather than his peers. He's either overpassing or overshooting and getting his own first. He's never a pass first type of guy and never shot he didn't like. Which is also why he gets flak for it.

thats how I perceive the two. Both have leadership style

Lmao. Is that why any good player that plays with Lebron takes a statistical hit? Lebron is a stat padding whore who is concerned about himself.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-01-2015, 06:42 PM
Top 5 player ever! Better then Lebron all-time still yeah come at me Lebron lovers, mostly anyone in the nba that has played has always said kobe over Lebron even shaq just said that! Lebron needs 2 more rings to pass kobe in my book


Agreed

andy2518
06-01-2015, 08:20 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106132/how-does-james-compare-with-other-nba-greats?ex_cid=espnFB



Thought this was interesting and relevant.

Isn't the problem most people have with Lebron and his fans the fact that so much is based on projections?

Hawkeye15
06-01-2015, 08:29 PM
Isn't the problem most people have with Lebron and his fans the fact that so much is based on projections?

It's the Basketball HOF haha, there are a good amount of players his team has beat that will be in it.

JordansBulls
06-01-2015, 08:38 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106132/how-does-james-compare-with-other-nba-greats?ex_cid=espnFB



Thought this was interesting and relevant.

Not relevant because MJ eliminated his HOF when they were in there primes and peak and MVP candidates Lebron on the other beat them when they were older and no longer MVP candidates. So using beating KG in 2011, 2012, Pierce, etc, Duncan is when they were not MVP candidates or there prime.

andy2518
06-01-2015, 08:50 PM
It's the Basketball HOF haha, there are a good amount of players his team has beat that will be in it.

That could very well be true. Seems everyone gets into the hall of fame now a days. I swear making just two all-star teams or averaging over 20 ppg for two-three seasons could just about guarantee a spot. Next thing you know Gilbert Arenas will be in the hall of fame someday. I honestly wouldn't doubt it.

andy2518
06-01-2015, 08:54 PM
Not relevant because MJ eliminated his HOF when they were in there primes and peak and MVP candidates Lebron on the other beat them when they were older and no longer MVP candidates. So using beating KG in 2011, 2012, Pierce, etc, Duncan is when they were not MVP candidates or there prime.

Lebron did beat Tayshaun Prince, Rip Hamilton, and Rasheed Wallace in 2007. All three could conceivably be hall of famers someday lol. Also throw in Jason Kidd and Vince Carter to that lot from 2007 as well. They will be hall of famers for sure.

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 09:18 PM
Lmao. Is that why any good player that plays with Lebron takes a statistical hit? Lebron is a stat padding whore who is concerned about himself.

:laugh:

Is this forreal? The one basketball player who literally makes everyone he plays with better is a stat padding whore but the guy that shoots 40 times a game and plays hero ball is the better more giving player in your opinion.

Andrew32
06-01-2015, 09:20 PM
The Lakers made a promise to him in 2004 that they hadn't made good on yet, i'm glad he kept them honest.

I didn't know they promised him anything.
That is an interesting factoid.

However they also promised Shaq a max extension and refused to give it to him.
Not that I think it was a bad move on their part given how many years that would have got them on the hook.

I watched some Kobe documentary's lately and he says many times that he was seriously considering leaving in both 2004 and 2007.
I think he even mentions something about wanting out earlier when him and Shaq first starting really going at it (maybe around 2001?) though Kobe loves to revise history so I don't automatically believe everything he says now just because he said it. Same for Shaq who is sometimes even worse in that regard.

I believe he said he was considering the Clippers and the Bulls? Don't remember.
So I am not sure how loyal I would really call him.
I might not say that he didn't have any attachments to LAL but if he thought that in an individual sense he'd be better off leaving I don't think he'd feel bad for a second about hurting any Laker fans or the franchise.
Kobe cares about Kobe first. Everyone else is a verrrrrrry distant second.

I think if Shaq would have resigned with LAL in 2004 (they did offer him a short extension) then Kobe probably would have signed with another team.

jerellh528
06-01-2015, 09:22 PM
Isn't the problem most people have with Lebron and his fans the fact that so much is based on projections?

Haha true. I've seen a lot of people with this sentiment, "I have lebron at about 8-10 right now but can be top 3 or 1b to Jordan when its all said and done" like damn, how much do you expect him to dominate for the next 3 years or so that will jump him over those other greats.

Stew
06-01-2015, 09:34 PM
BLACK MAMBA>lbj, no brainer.
Anybody who tells you any different needs to stop sniffing Caitlyn Jenners panties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrew32
06-01-2015, 09:34 PM
Haha true. I've seen a lot of people with this sentiment, "I have lebron at about 8-10 right now but can be top 3 or 1b to Jordan when its all said and done" like damn, how much do you expect him to dominate for the next 3 years or so that will jump him over those other greats.

I kinda agree.
Lebron has had an incredible career so far in so many ways.
However I still at best currently wouldn't rank him any higher then 8th.

I don't think it is a guranteed thing that he makes the Top 5 let alone Top 3.
It is "possible" and I won't unfairly set a limit on his career cieling but so far I wouldn't lean towards that happening unless he ages really, really well.

Still given his insane mileage at this stage of his career I don't know how much longer he can go on without an injury or a notable decline.
Not sure if he truly has an ageless body ala Karl Malone who stayed a great player for what seemed like 20+ years until a freak injury sent him away.

LakersEaglesLA
06-01-2015, 09:38 PM
This is a true stat not opinion, I've been saying for years Lebrons competition was terrible.. Kobe is the ultimate dream killer, all those good teams and there fans denied by Kobe. I guess that's why so many hate him. The essence of sports is Competition

Hawkeye15
06-01-2015, 09:45 PM
That could very well be true. Seems everyone gets into the hall of fame now a days. I swear making just two all-star teams or averaging over 20 ppg for two-three seasons could just about guarantee a spot. Next thing you know Gilbert Arenas will be in the hall of fame someday. I honestly wouldn't doubt it.

hahahaha, they always have brother. Pay attention

Hawkeye15
06-01-2015, 09:48 PM
Haha true. I've seen a lot of people with this sentiment, "I have lebron at about 8-10 right now but can be top 3 or 1b to Jordan when its all said and done" like damn, how much do you expect him to dominate for the next 3 years or so that will jump him over those other greats.

I already have LeBron in my tier of 6-10 players. Of course he will end up top 5.

When did Kobe pile drive it after 30? No, he added stats, and team success. His ranking comes heavily from longevity. LeBron shouldn't get that same credit, on top of his CLEARLY superior seasons through his prime?

He is 30. Just dragged yet another blah roster into the finals. I get it, it's the east.

Dude, you are watching a top 3 talent to ever play. Why not just chill out and enjoy it.

Delusionist, please don't reply to this :)

koreancabbage
06-01-2015, 10:05 PM
Lmao. Is that why any good player that plays with Lebron takes a statistical hit? Lebron is a stat padding whore who is concerned about himself.

LOL great analysis there. Yet people still want to play with him. meanwhile Kobe is left out to dry over there in LA as the Lakers management waits for Kobe to retire so they can finally rid themselves of the nightmare of which is Kobe

5ass
06-01-2015, 10:05 PM
Haha true. I've seen a lot of people with this sentiment, "I have lebron at about 8-10 right now but can be top 3 or 1b to Jordan when its all said and done" like damn, how much do you expect him to dominate for the next 3 years or so that will jump him over those other greats.

Duncan the last two years jumped up on a lot of people's list from 7-10 to top 5.

LakersEaglesLA
06-01-2015, 11:57 PM
LOL great analysis there. Yet people still want to play with him. meanwhile Kobe is left out to dry over there in LA as the Lakers management waits for Kobe to retire so they can finally rid themselves of the nightmare of which is Kobe
Yes he's a nightmare to 24 really good teams!

More-Than-Most
06-02-2015, 12:41 AM
LOL great analysis there. Yet people still want to play with him. meanwhile Kobe is left out to dry over there in LA as the Lakers management waits for Kobe to retire so they can finally rid themselves of the nightmare of which is Kobe

In his prime I think I would rather play with Kobe than anyone else TBH... I think James is better and I think James would help my out put more but I know Kobe would do everything in his power to force his organization to win and I know he would spend all day every day working out to keep himself great. You cant go wrong with either but again there is nobody in basketball that loves the sport more and gives more than he gives day in and day out.

Jayb587
06-02-2015, 12:52 AM
LOL great analysis there. Yet people still want to play with him. meanwhile Kobe is left out to dry over there in LA as the Lakers management waits for Kobe to retire so they can finally rid themselves of the nightmare of which is Kobe

what shaq said

lol, please
06-02-2015, 12:59 AM
Top 5 player ever! Better then Lebron all-time still yeah come at me Lebron lovers, mostly anyone in the nba that has played has always said kobe over Lebron even shaq just said that! Lebron needs 2 more rings to pass kobe in my book


Kobe is 5-6 on the list, Lebron is 8-10.
:clap:

Matter.
06-02-2015, 01:13 AM
LOL great analysis there. Yet people still want to play with him. meanwhile Kobe is left out to dry over there in LA as the Lakers management waits for Kobe to retire so they can finally rid themselves of the nightmare of which is Kobe

I've never seen someone hate a player as much as you have ...

PowerHouse
06-02-2015, 01:26 AM
In his prime I think I would rather play with Kobe than anyone else TBH... I think James is better and I think James would help my out put more but I know Kobe would do everything in his power to force his organization to win and I know he would spend all day every day working out to keep himself great. You cant go wrong with either but again there is nobody in basketball that loves the sport more and gives more than he gives day in and day out.

Wow, pretty high praise for a guy that you recently said couldnt even crack a top 5 list during his prime years.

Or you were only willing to concede that he cracked a top 5 yearly list maybe twice during the entire 2000-2010.

More-Than-Most
06-02-2015, 01:36 AM
Wow, pretty high praise for a guy that you recently said couldnt even crack a top 5 list during his prime years.

Or you were only willing to concede that he cracked a top 5 yearly list maybe twice during the entire 2000-2010.

I stand behind that... I have Kobe 8-10 on my all time list and James right now top 7... If by some miracle James wins the title with this cavs team he would be 3-5... when its all said and done I think he ends up 2... Kobe had 3 years where he was top 5 player in the league during any individual year and top 3 only once and that would be 06... But again if there's any one player I could play with if I was a player it would be Kobe because of his work ethic and what he expects and his love for the game.... James or Jordan don't work nearly has hard year round as Kobe did/does and will do and that's why he had the ability to play as long as he has and remain consistently at a high level... though I say he was never top 5 more than a few times he was a top 7-10 player most years and there is value in consistently being as good as he was for as long as he was. When it came down to the decade convo its hard for me to say he is the best player in a decade when he was only top 3 once and top five 2 or 3 times over that decade and the rest of the time was spent between 6-10..... Thats why I think james owns 0000-2010 or duncan... James missed a few years no doubt but he was the best player in the game from 06-10 and 05 was top 5 and 04 was still a damn good player. So 6 years out of the decade he was amazing but thats another argument and another thread. Its scary to think how great James/Jordan could be or could have been if they were as driven as Kobe... James and Jordan are freaks of Nature and have an endless talent pool and James is a freak of nature physcially and can play any position on the court which Kobe/Jordan cant do but if either of these guys wanted it like Kobe did that would be quite special... Not saying James and Jordan dont have amazing work ethics but nobody loves the game more than Kobe and works harder.

PowerHouse
06-02-2015, 03:25 AM
^As big a Kobe fan as I am, I cant say he or anybody in history was more driven or more determined to succeed than Jordan. Maybe equal but not more.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-02-2015, 03:49 AM
BLACK MAMBA>lbj, no brainer.
Anybody who tells you any different needs to stop sniffing Caitlyn Jenners panties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lmao

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-02-2015, 03:53 AM
Haha true. I've seen a lot of people with this sentiment, "I have lebron at about 8-10 right now but can be top 3 or 1b to Jordan when its all said and done" like damn, how much do you expect him to dominate for the next 3 years or so that will jump him over those other greats.

I already have LeBron in my tier of 6-10 players. Of course he will end up top 5.

When did Kobe pile drive it after 30? No, he added stats, and team success. His ranking comes heavily from longevity. LeBron shouldn't get that same credit, on top of his CLEARLY superior seasons through his prime?

He is 30. Just dragged yet another blah roster into the finals. I get it, it's the east.

Dude, you are watching a top 3 talent to ever play. Why not just chill out and enjoy it.

Delusionist, please don't reply to this :)

I'll keep it short. ;)

He's not a top three ever. And will never be a top three. I can't wait for the pile of excuses after lebrons finals record is 2-4

koreancabbage
06-02-2015, 07:19 AM
I'll keep it short. ;)

He's not a top three ever. And will never be a top three. I can't wait for the pile of excuses after lebrons finals record is 2-4

stop the inbreeding.

he said top 3 talent.

not top 3 overall.

Jamiecballer
06-02-2015, 08:39 AM
[emoji23]

Is this forreal? The one basketball player who literally makes everyone he plays with better is a stat padding whore but the guy that shoots 40 times a game and plays hero ball is the better more giving player in your opinion.
Lol. They will tell you that Kobe made Pau better, or Shaq. Not that their primes coincided with his and their interior games were a good fit.

valade16
06-02-2015, 09:44 AM
thats how leverage works.

he put pressure on the front office and they produced a diamond (developing Bynum, trading for Gasol, Fisher and Ariza). Requesting the trade was still to this date the smartest off court decision he's made in his career. laker fans are grateful that he helped the franchise get it together one last time for Dr. Buss. it put a fire under a couple of trust fund kids who were in the process of taking over for their dad. it resulted in back-to-back championships. i don't buy this point as a rebuttal to what you were responding to. at the end of the day he's a 20 year Laker and if you want to refute that concept because of the trade speculation that lasted for a few weeks in summer 2007, it's a weak argument. just because he was ready to leave, doesn't mean that was his goal. the Lakers made a promise to him in 2004 that they hadn't made good on yet, i'm glad he kept them honest.

How many times in Kobes career have the Lakers had the best record in the west?

The problem with your analysis is it seems you are claiming that Kobe requested a trade with no intention of leaving solely to get the Lakers to upgrade the talent around him. I don't think that's the case and I don't see how you could possibly know that.

Here were his high conference ranks:

1st in 2000
2nd in 2001
3rd in 2002 (T-record with 2nd)
2nd in 2004
1st in 2008
1st in 2009
1st in 2010
2nd in 2011

So he had the best conference record 4 times and a top 2 conference record 8 times. I think it's fair to say he was on the most stacked teams. The Kobe/Pau teams led the conference in record 3 straight times, and that was the not as good team...

Chronz
06-02-2015, 02:07 PM
The problem with your analysis is it seems you are claiming that Kobe requested a trade with no intention of leaving solely to get the Lakers to upgrade the talent around him. I don't think that's the case and I don't see how you could possibly know that.

Here were his high conference ranks:

1st in 2000
2nd in 2001
3rd in 2002 (T-record with 2nd)
2nd in 2004
1st in 2008
1st in 2009
1st in 2010
2nd in 2011

So he had the best conference record 4 times and a top 2 conference record 8 times. I think it's fair to say he was on the most stacked teams. The Kobe/Pau teams led the conference in record 3 straight times, and that was the not as good team...
Don't buy it.
That's just kobe remaking history. Had they done what He wanted, they trade Bynum away long before That (to which he admitted was wrong). He doesn't understand the cap rules, it's why He honestly believed he took a paycut that would actually help. He didn't want to go through a rebuild but he was fine with the team jettisoning their best players for a guy with a mammoth contract and no knees in b grant.. He's either an idiot a liar or both.

Chronz
06-02-2015, 02:09 PM
Lol @ leverage. He had none, it's why they ignored so many of his idiotic requests

nickdymez
06-02-2015, 05:15 PM
Don't buy it.
That's just kobe remaking history. Had they done what He wanted, they trade Bynum away long before That (to which he admitted was wrong). He doesn't understand the cap rules, it's why He honestly believed he took a paycut that would actually help. He didn't want to go through a rebuild but he was fine with the team jettisoning their best players for a guy with a mammoth contract and no knees in b grant.. He's either an idiot a liar or both.
Does your hate for kobe hurt?

Hawkeye15
06-02-2015, 05:21 PM
Does your hate for kobe hurt?

does hate for someone you have never met hurt anyone? If it does, yowza haha

I like to think (hope), at the end of the day, nobody is losing sleep over an athlete that they don't like.

nickdymez
06-02-2015, 05:33 PM
does hate for someone you have never met hurt anyone? If it does, yowza haha

I like to think (hope), at the end of the day, nobody is losing sleep over an athlete that they don't like.
Around here they are. I've never seen an all time great athlete be disrespected more than he is here on psd.

Jamiecballer
06-02-2015, 08:31 PM
Around here they are. I've never seen an all time great athlete be disrespected more than he is here on psd.
He's a prick so people hate him but lucky for him he's a prick so I'm sure he couldn't give a **** lol

YAALREADYKNO
06-02-2015, 09:09 PM
Around here they are. I've never seen an all time great athlete be disrespected more than he is here on psd.

Lmao you right you right

Hawkeye15
06-02-2015, 09:26 PM
Around here they are. I've never seen an all time great athlete be disrespected more than he is here on psd.

really? I am not on other message boards, but I can't imagine they aren't all similar.

Stew
06-02-2015, 09:37 PM
BLACK MAMBA>lbj, no brainer.
Anybody who tells you any different needs to stop sniffing Caitlyn Jenners panties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again, enough said. Lebrick will come up short AGAIN this year!

lol, please
06-02-2015, 10:07 PM
Once again, enough said. Lebrick will come up short AGAIN this year!
:clap:

Stew
06-02-2015, 10:07 PM
If Kobe was a ring chaser like LeBrick then he'd of had at least 7 rings by now.
LeBrick said "Hmmm, let's see- try and build a TEAM around me or go join Wade n Bosh" then he said "Hmm try and rebuild a younger team around me in Miami or join Love n Irving". He took the chickenshit way out to chase rings in his prime. That's exactly why the Black Mamba will ALWAYS be > than LeBrick.

5ass
06-02-2015, 10:14 PM
I keep saying there should be a minimum age requirement to join these forums.

Bruno
06-02-2015, 10:28 PM
Lol @ leverage. He had none, it's why they ignored so many of his idiotic requests


he was promised a contender when he signed, man to man. Dr. Buss made his basketball name through his amicable relationships with his players. in Laker land, having an in prime top ten player ever publicly upset with basketball decisions is bad for the Laker brand. it's leverage if you believe that Buss cared about his public image among his fans more than the average owner. maybe you don't buy that as legitimate leverage, on a social level. but how about by the numbers?

in 2004, 2005, 2006 it's marginal leverage in the sense that the long contract was so new. but by 2007, he's at the halfway point. i don't think its a coincidence that he starts talking publicly as he reaches the halfway point of his deal. i don't think its any accident that a player of Paus caliber comes into the fold by 2008. Had he not? We open the 2008-2009 season as a mediocre team and Kobe is a year and a half away from opting out, similar to Durant, Love, Howard, Williams, Melo and every other disgruntled all-star who flirts with threatening to leave their team with nothing if they don't trade them.

if you're the Lakers and Kobe has a no trade clause, how are you going to get fair talent back for him without taking away too many talented future teammates for Kobe to play with on the other side?. very hard to do. so if you come to the conclusion that moving him will be cents on the dollar, you have to keep him a Laker. but if he decides to walk in 2010 because they never put a player better than lamar odom around him? you're left with nothing. it was easier to find a trade to bring in an all-star than it was to trade Kobe, and it was a far better outcome than letting him walk. how powerful that leverage? tough to say, but i'd say it was looming, and getting stronger by the day at the time.

you don't think Kidd on the Laker team that would have played in the finals for the Lakers against 2008 Boston would have been interesting? keep in mind Bynum didn't suit up, despite having his break out 2-3 months right before the Pau trade. I think the Lakers might win the 2008 finals if they Lakers trade Bynum for Kidd.

Bruno
06-02-2015, 10:29 PM
really? I am not on other message boards, but I can't imagine they aren't all similar.

you should see reddit. the average age is very young and they think 2014-2015 Kobe Bryant is what Kobe always use to be. you'd get a laugh out of some of the comments. I prefer PSD by a long shot, for discussion.

Bruno
06-02-2015, 10:34 PM
The problem with your analysis is it seems you are claiming that Kobe requested a trade with no intention of leaving solely to get the Lakers to upgrade the talent around him. I don't think that's the case and I don't see how you could possibly know that.
i mean, I'm just a guy on the internet, but Kobe is on record saying he was prepared to leave for the Clippers. He expressed interest in Chicago. I think he was prepared to leave if nothing happened, I mean you have to be or its an empty threat. But i also think it was the last case scenario and that you don't sign a 7 year contract in 2004 if you don't really want to be a Laker for the bulk of your career. Buss sold him on staying, promised a contender, told him a belonged a Laker for life, Kobe, a life long Laker fan bought in. all things with the exception to moments of uncertainty in the summer of 2004 and 2007 point to Kobe always wanting to be a Laker. Kobe wants to win right? Look at the Clippers track record at the time, do you really think he'd choose playing for Sterling if he believed that the Buss would come through with his end of the deal?



1st in 2000
2nd in 2001
3rd in 2002 (T-record with 2nd)
2nd in 2004
1st in 2008
1st in 2009
1st in 2010
2nd in 2011
I won't argue with you for a second on how good the early and late 2000's Lakers were. but were talking about the gap between 2004 and 2008. when the Laker roster was poor, when Kobe was peaking individually. Can we find another top 20 player ever who had a worse roster at age 27?


So he had the best conference record 4 times and a top 2 conference record 8 times. I think it's fair to say he was on the most stacked teams. The Kobe/Pau teams led the conference in record 3 straight times, and that was the not as good team...I agree. I'm just talking about that window in-between.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2015, 10:45 PM
you should see reddit. the average age is very young and they think 2014-2015 Kobe Bryant is what Kobe always use to be. you'd get a laugh out of some of the comments. I prefer PSD by a long shot, for discussion.

I just talked to my best college buddy, he is from LA, moved right back in 2000. He claims the Laker fans are not huge Kobe fans currently. Due to situation.

Not really believing it, but maybe it's true.

knee jerk is always dumb

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-02-2015, 11:41 PM
If Kobe was a ring chaser like LeBrick then he'd of had at least 7 rings by now.
LeBrick said "Hmmm, let's see- try and build a TEAM around me or go join Wade n Bosh" then he said "Hmm try and rebuild a younger team around me in Miami or join Love n Irving". He took the chickenshit way out to chase rings in his prime. That's exactly why the Black Mamba will ALWAYS be > than LeBrick.

Yup

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-02-2015, 11:41 PM
I keep saying there should be a minimum age requirement to join these forums.

I agree, it'll cut the Lebron fan base in half.

Jamiecballer
06-03-2015, 08:26 AM
I agree, it'll cut the Lebron fan base in half.

I see what you did there, the way you took the obvious dig and flipped it around!

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 08:52 AM
Yup

nope. because he ain't good enough.

hidalgo
06-03-2015, 09:10 AM
i mean, I'm just a guy on the internet, but Kobe is on record saying he was prepared to leave for the Clippers. He expressed interest in Chicago. I think he was prepared to leave if nothing happened, I mean you have to be or its an empty threat. But i also think it was the last case scenario and that you don't sign a 7 year contract in 2004 if you don't really want to be a Laker for the bulk of your career. Buss sold him on staying, promised a contender, told him a belonged a Laker for life, Kobe, a life long Laker fan bought in. all things with the exception to moments of uncertainty in the summer of 2004 and 2007 point to Kobe always wanting to be a Laker. Kobe wants to win right? Look at the Clippers track record at the time, do you really think he'd choose playing for Sterling if he believed that the Buss would come through with his end of the deal?


I won't argue with you for a second on how good the early and late 2000's Lakers were. but were talking about the gap between 2004 and 2008. when the Laker roster was poor, when Kobe was peaking individually. Can we find another top 20 player ever who had a worse roster at age 27?

I agree. I'm just talking about that window in-between. top 20 player ever with a worse roster at age 27? Charles Barkley 1990 off the top of my head. Hersey Hawkins was his #2 guy. Odom was a tad better than Hawkins, & otherwise both roster were pretty weak. i think the 76ers roster was a tad weaker. incredible Barkley led them to 53 wins that year with that crap roster. another HUGE X factor, Phil Jackson. Barkley had Jim Lynam as his coach(Who?)..plus a lot of those Lakers players had great chemistry together, & ended up winning 2 titles as useful roll players. 1990 76ers chemistry was ehhh... ok...

YAALREADYKNO
06-03-2015, 10:10 AM
i mean, I'm just a guy on the internet, but Kobe is on record saying he was prepared to leave for the Clippers. He expressed interest in Chicago. I think he was prepared to leave if nothing happened, I mean you have to be or its an empty threat. But i also think it was the last case scenario and that you don't sign a 7 year contract in 2004 if you don't really want to be a Laker for the bulk of your career. Buss sold him on staying, promised a contender, told him a belonged a Laker for life, Kobe, a life long Laker fan bought in. all things with the exception to moments of uncertainty in the summer of 2004 and 2007 point to Kobe always wanting to be a Laker. Kobe wants to win right? Look at the Clippers track record at the time, do you really think he'd choose playing for Sterling if he believed that the Buss would come through with his end of the deal?


I won't argue with you for a second on how good the early and late 2000's Lakers were. but were talking about the gap between 2004 and 2008. when the Laker roster was poor, when Kobe was peaking individually. Can we find another top 20 player ever who had a worse roster at age 27?

I agree. I'm just talking about that window in-between.

He was about to come to Dallas to team up with Dirk. If only that happened. Prime Dirk and Prime Kobe on the same team?

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 10:19 AM
He was about to come to Dallas to team up with Dirk. If only that happened. Prime Dirk and Prime Kobe on the same team?

it would have been epic.

YAALREADYKNO
06-03-2015, 12:03 PM
it would have been epic.

It would've been lol

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-03-2015, 01:53 PM
I agree, it'll cut the Lebron fan base in half.

I see what you did there, the way you took the obvious dig and flipped it around!

You don't say..

Jamiecballer
06-03-2015, 03:12 PM
You don't say..

always good for comic relief friend.

Bostonjorge
06-03-2015, 04:09 PM
The most watered down 7 of the list easily. The seven teams that James has eliminated are easily the 7 weakest teams. Kobe has 24 and Jordan 20 more impressive wins.

James is nothing without teams who can't win 50 games.

Bruno
06-03-2015, 06:39 PM
I just talked to my best college buddy, he is from LA, moved right back in 2000. He claims the Laker fans are not huge Kobe fans currently. Due to situation.

Not really believing it, but maybe it's true.

knee jerk is always dumb

i see a healthy mix of both honestly.

there's also a lot of new 'look, what'd a tell you' in comparison to Wades news this week. pendulum swings back and forth.

Bruno
06-03-2015, 06:40 PM
top 20 player ever with a worse roster at age 27? Charles Barkley 1990 off the top of my head. Hersey Hawkins was his #2 guy. Odom was a tad better than Hawkins, & otherwise both roster were pretty weak. i think the 76ers roster was a tad weaker. incredible Barkley led them to 53 wins that year with that crap roster. another HUGE X factor, Phil Jackson. Barkley had Jim Lynam as his coach(Who?)..plus a lot of those Lakers players had great chemistry together, & ended up winning 2 titles as useful roll players. 1990 76ers chemistry was ehhh... ok...

good call.

so we gotta go back to 1990 to find another guy who's even in the discussion.

Bruno
06-03-2015, 06:42 PM
He was about to come to Dallas to team up with Dirk. If only that happened. Prime Dirk and Prime Kobe on the same team?

people in LA had the same dream man bring over Dirk for Shaq. Kobe with Dirk or Duncan, too good of a could have been. Cuban was brilliant to turn down Shaq for Dirk at the time. Maybe would have been a yes even if proposed one year earlier, tough to say.

L8kers4life
06-03-2015, 07:18 PM
I just talked to my best college buddy, he is from LA, moved right back in 2000. He claims the Laker fans are not huge Kobe fans currently. Due to situation.

Not really believing it, but maybe it's true.

knee jerk is always dumb

You would be correct sir, almost all of us Laker fans have wanted him to retire since he blew out his Achilles.

YAALREADYKNO
06-04-2015, 12:29 PM
people in LA had the same dream man bring over Dirk for Shaq. Kobe with Dirk or Duncan, too good of a could have been. Cuban was brilliant to turn down Shaq for Dirk at the time. Maybe would have been a yes even if proposed one year earlier, tough to say.

Shaq and Nash (if the mavs would've kept him) would've been great to watch as well but Dirk and Kobe would've been better long term

lol, please
06-04-2015, 01:07 PM
Shaq and Nash (if the mavs would've kept him) would've been great to watch as well but Dirk and Kobe would've been better long term
Shaq and Nash vs Kobe and Dirk: who wins?

YAALREADYKNO
06-04-2015, 05:20 PM
Shaq and Nash vs Kobe and Dirk: who wins?

That ones tough. which would you choose?

lol, please
06-04-2015, 05:32 PM
That ones tough. which would you choose?
Well...I would suck the wrinkles out of Shaq and Kobe's sac's with equal vigor - so I have to look at it this way: who do I like the least? Dirk. Now, all I have to do is find some stats and conditions that support my Shaq/Nash argument. Sorry King Kobe. Your still > lebron

YAALREADYKNO
06-04-2015, 07:31 PM
Well...I would suck the wrinkles out of Shaq and Kobe's sac's with equal vigor - so I have to look at it this way: who do I like the least? Dirk. Now, all I have to do is find some stats and conditions that support my Shaq/Nash argument. Sorry King Kobe. Your still > lebron

So you're basically saying shaq/Nash>Dirk/Kobe?

lakerboy
06-05-2015, 12:48 AM
Shaq / Nash played in Phoenix and weren't really a good tandem. Nash is like Lebron. They can play better with players who move off the ball. Kobe is better with players who can post up iso style.

lol, please
06-05-2015, 01:02 AM
So you're basically saying shaq/Nash>Dirk/Kobe?

Yea. I'm assuming all 4 are prime too. Dirk wouldn't be able to stop Shaq but Kobe would keep it close because he would be able to score on Nash, but it would be a close game.

valade16
06-05-2015, 10:14 AM
Shaq and Nash vs Kobe and Dirk: who wins?

In a 5 on 5 game it depends on who the teammates are because none of them would be guarding each other.

In a 2 on 2 game it would easily, easily be Shaq and Nash. No way Dirk can guard Shaq at all and Nash is there to hit the 3's.

Dirk has more of a chance of missing his wide open 3 than Shaq does missing his wide open dunk.

lol, please
06-05-2015, 11:48 AM
In a 5 on 5 game it depends on who the teammates are because none of them would be guarding each other.

In a 2 on 2 game it would easily, easily be Shaq and Nash. No way Dirk can guard Shaq at all and Nash is there to hit the 3's.

Dirk has more of a chance of missing his wide open 3 than Shaq does missing his wide open dunk.
Yea 2v2 was what I was envisioning