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More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 11:53 PM
Might be having the worst Elimination game ever for a superstar player.

2-11....10 of his 14 points from free throws.... He has 13 turnovers.... His defense in this game and series might be worse than his offense in this game...When he doesn't perform offensively he brings negative to the game.. He is beyond overrated at this point. He needs to be spectacular on offense to have value.

Bron > Kobe
05-27-2015, 11:59 PM
I agree

Cal827
05-28-2015, 12:01 AM
I agree

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 12:04 AM
This was a pathetic performance. I hope the mods don't remove this as baiting because this was really terrible.

SportsFanatic10
05-28-2015, 12:07 AM
He really laid an egg here, but for the most part he has shown he can play big in the playoffs now. Tonight he was a mess out there though.

PraiseJesus
05-28-2015, 12:08 AM
Harden, McHale, and the entire ROckets fan base should be ashamed of how they acted this season

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 12:09 AM
How did they act?

Raps08-09 Champ
05-28-2015, 12:09 AM
Lil B did this.

bleedprple&gold
05-28-2015, 12:10 AM
Nba record most TOs in a playoff game. Love it! #overrated

More-Than-Most
05-28-2015, 12:12 AM
How did they act?

thug like... Not even kidding that was just embarrassing for their franchise... Cheap shot after cheap shot

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 12:13 AM
I seriously threw up when Brewer, Ariza, and Terry all chucked up shots trying to draw fouls... embarrassing.

PraiseJesus
05-28-2015, 12:15 AM
How did they act?

The shameless MVP promotion and stat padding for Harden dow nthe stretch. THe total lack of class

and of course the cheap shots and tantrum they threw the last 2 games

ewing
05-28-2015, 12:16 AM
oh my ****. Look at this supporting caste. Jason ****ing Terry, Josh Smith, Pablo, Clint Caprice. Does anyone not named Harden, Howard, or Ariza even belong in the rotation of a championship team? His team was a clear underdog and he was clearly the best player on the team.

Avenged
05-28-2015, 12:17 AM
He was probably out partying. No big deal.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-28-2015, 12:18 AM
man he's a ballhog

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 12:18 AM
oh my ****. Look at this supporting caste. Jason ****ing Terry, Josh Smith, Pablo, Clint Caprice. Does anyone not named Harden, Howard, or Ariza even belong in the rotation of a championship team? His team was a clear underdog and he was clearly the best player on the team.

Yeah, but they kept Harden in the game along with the refs blowing for every foul. Harden could have still carried his team down 9 with like 6 min left but he was hesitant to shoot the ball, turned it over, and kept looking for fouls.

flea
05-28-2015, 12:19 AM
oh my ****. Look at this supporting caste. Jason ****ing Terry, Josh Smith, Pablo, Clint Caprice. Does anyone not named Harden, Howard, or Ariza even belong in the rotation of a championship team? His team was a clear underdog and he was clearly the best player on the team.

3 or 4 more WCF wins and he's well on his way to challenging Kobe and Jordan. Well above Drexler and Moncrief already, scrubs. There were like what, 8 black guys over 6'10 in the league then? Please.

Ariza's Better
05-28-2015, 12:19 AM
Oops double post.

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 12:19 AM
The shameless MVP promotion and stat padding for Harden dow nthe stretch. THe total lack of class

and of course the cheap shots and tantrum they threw the last 2 games

Was pretty ridiculous to hear their fans chant MVP! MVP! while Harden was at the line during game 4. I wish they would get away from that, because Harden is a good player and they have a nice core.

Ariza's Better
05-28-2015, 12:20 AM
Hey PraiseJesus, what happened to you? You seem to have disappeared all playoffs. What happened to Houston and Golden State not going far theses playoffs?

ewing
05-28-2015, 12:26 AM
3 or 4 more WCF wins and he's well on his way to challenging Kobe and Jordan. Well above Drexler and Moncrief already, scrubs. There were like what, 8 black guys over 6'10 in the league then? Please.

not only were they caucasian they did not have the internet. Do you know how unathletic white people were before the internet?

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 12:34 AM
Give Harden a break he did everything for Houston. Without him they're not even a playoff team. He can't do it all himself, he needs more help.

tredigs
05-28-2015, 12:36 AM
He's still really young, he's got a long and very bright future if he stays healthy.

But, that was the worst playoff performance by a star in NBA history.

NYKnickFanatic
05-28-2015, 12:53 AM
603778038443020288

Jayb587
05-28-2015, 12:55 AM
wouldn't say hes overrated. He is tired. carrying this trash all year, people in and out the LU and playing like retards when they do suit up (Dwight). Harden knew he couldn't win and kinda tapped out. I think Beverly could have made this a 6 game series and more competeitive but GS still wins. No team with PG's named J terry and Pablo prigioni is going anywhere so I give harden some credit. And Dwight still blows.

More-Than-Most
05-28-2015, 12:59 AM
Give Harden a break he did everything for Houston. Without him they're not even a playoff team. He can't do it all himself, he needs more help.

I love how you **** on Lebron for doing everything with even less than he has but try to give harden the beneift of the doubt

curtcocaine
05-28-2015, 01:10 AM
Still top 10 in the NBA so............

curtcocaine
05-28-2015, 01:11 AM
Everybody has off nights seriously. Hes getting game planned for. Top SG in the league.

Shlumpledink
05-28-2015, 01:14 AM
Finally reality catches up

PraiseJesus
05-28-2015, 02:02 AM
Harden exposed for the ball hogging flopper that he is

Go Curry

andy2518
05-28-2015, 02:52 AM
Honestly, it was overachieving that he even made it this far so we should give credit where due. That said, this was a very bad performance for a player who many have regarded all season long as "Da Real MVP" all over Twitter and nearly every other social media outlet. Hopefully this fuels his fire to do even better next season, but without all his fans talking loads of crap over the internet. I could surely go without that next season.

bleedprple&gold
05-28-2015, 03:10 AM
Everybody has off nights seriously. Hes getting game planned for. Top SG in the league.

That was a little more than an "off night." That was statistically one of the worst games in nba playoff history, and by a so-called "mvp candidate."

DRose7
05-28-2015, 03:52 AM
Lol this post is just pure hate…trust me i use to be the one saying Harden is overrated, not a playoff player, he chokes….but he more than proved me wrong this post-season, he's proved he's elite, and can go toe-to-toe with the greats in the league…he surprised me a lot, his mid-range game is elite, prob top 3 in the league in that respect…and in the top 5 overall of players in the league, at this moment

RubberBand Man
05-28-2015, 04:12 AM
If stopped relying on the refs maybe he'd play better.

More-Than-Most
05-28-2015, 04:20 AM
Lol this post is just pure hate…trust me i use to be the one saying Harden is overrated, not a playoff player, he chokes….but he more than proved me wrong this post-season, he's proved he's elite, and can go toe-to-toe with the greats in the league…he surprised me a lot, his mid-range game is elite, prob top 3 in the league in that respect…and in the top 5 overall of players in the league, at this moment

Lol top 5? really? He isnt even in the top 10... Cp3/James/Wall/Curry/Davis/Westy/Durant... These guys are all better than him because most of these guys CAN PLAY 2 WAYS.... Then you have the level he is on where you can argue any of these guys with him... Melo/Howard/Dirk/Love/Harden and a few others as well... Harden is slightly better than Melo on offense and worse than melo on defense... He is right there with Melo but not a top 5 or 10 player in the league.... Oh wait I forgot psd is the place where people think offense is everything and thus defense means nothing if you score 30 a game.

Jayb587
05-28-2015, 04:25 AM
Lol top 5? really? He isnt even in the top 10... Cp3/James/Wall/Curry/Davis/Westy/Durant... These guys are all better than him because most of these guys CAN PLAY 2 WAYS.... Then you have the level he is on where you can argue any of these guys with him... Melo/Howard/Dirk/Love/Harden and a few others as well... Harden is slightly better than Melo on offense and worse than melo on defense... He is right there with Melo but not a top 5 or 10 player in the league.... Oh wait I forgot psd is the place where people think offense is everything and thus defense means nothing if you score 30 a game.

hardens definitely top 10. after one bad game ppl want to hammer him. what have u done for me lately syndrome.

More-Than-Most
05-28-2015, 05:11 AM
hardens definitely top 10. after one bad game ppl want to hammer him. what have u done for me lately syndrome.

One bad game? Not me... I have been down on him forever because I actually understand the value in defense and he is one of if not the worst defender at his position in all of basketball.

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 05:17 AM
Troll thread gets trollin':




Harden, McHale, and the entire ROckets fan base should be ashamed of how they acted this season

Nope. They shut the non-******** haters up. There's just people like you left. I'm very pleased with what they did.


I seriously threw up when Brewer, Ariza, and Terry all chucked up shots trying to draw fouls... embarrassing.

You "seriously threw up"? Like, you literally vomited? Wow, get a better hobby then watching guys you don't like perform something where you might literally vomit. Or get a girlfriend.



The shameless MVP promotion and stat padding for Harden dow nthe stretch. THe total lack of class

and of course the cheap shots and tantrum they threw the last 2 games

Oh no! Not MVP promotion and stat padding! Oh Jesus, my Jesus! Who gives a ****. Give over it and stop worrying about things that don't concern you. And Harden threw some cheap shots? Go watch a game and come back and cry. Better yet, just go away.



I love how you **** on Lebron for doing everything with even less than he has but try to give harden the beneift of the doubt

I love how you **** on Harden for everything with even less than he has but try to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt.


Harden exposed for the ball hogging flopper that he is

Go Curry

Fail in the playoffs Curry? Isn't that what you said?



Lol top 5? really? He isnt even in the top 10... Cp3/James/Wall/Curry/Davis/Westy/Durant... These guys are all better than him because most of these guys CAN PLAY 2 WAYS.... Then you have the level he is on where you can argue any of these guys with him... Melo/Howard/Dirk/Love/Harden and a few others as well... Harden is slightly better than Melo on offense and worse than melo on defense... He is right there with Melo but not a top 5 or 10 player in the league.... Oh wait I forgot psd is the place where people think offense is everything and thus defense means nothing if you score 30 a game.

Harden's not Top Ten? Lol, ok bro. Keep hatin'. On Dirk's level? Love's? I don't remember Carmelo putting his team on his back all year and making the 2 seed, or even just the playoffs. And Harden didn't have a guy like Blake this year and I know Blake was hurt but not as much as Howard this year.




One bad game? Not me... I have been down on him forever because I actually understand the value in defense and he is one of if not the worst defender at his position in all of basketball.

Cool. You thinking he's "one of, if not the worst defenders at his postion in all of basketball" shows how much you know about basketball. I'd say less than most.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 05:33 AM
Troll thread gets trollin':





Nope. They shut the non-******** haters up. There's just people like you left. I'm very pleased with what they did.



You "seriously threw up"? Like, you literally vomited? Wow, get a better hobby then watching guys you don't like perform something where you might literally vomit. Or get a girlfriend.




Oh no! Not MVP promotion and stat padding! Oh Jesus, my Jesus! Who gives a ****. Give over it and stop worrying about things that don't concern you. And Harden threw some cheap shots? Go watch a game and come back and cry. Better yet, just go away.




I love how you **** on Harden for everything with even less than he has but try to give LeBron the benefit of the doubt.



Fail in the playoffs Curry? Isn't that what you said?




Harden's not Top Ten? Lol, ok bro. Keep hatin'. On Dirk's level? Love's? I don't remember Carmelo putting his team on his back all year and making the 2 seed, or even just the playoffs. And Harden didn't have a guy like Blake this year and I know Blake was hurt but not as much as Howard this year.





Cool. You thinking he's "one of, if not the worst defenders at his postion in all of basketball" shows how much you know about basketball. I'd say less than most.

Name 3 worse shooting guard defenders. Inb4 drtg spg bpg

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 05:47 AM
Name 3 worse shooting guard defenders. Inb4 drtg spg bpg

Aren't youbthe guy that quit on the Warriors a few weeks ago? Talk about embarrassing.

rockets-fan
05-28-2015, 05:58 AM
Horrible performance, disappointed in this game but overall loved how the team played this whole season.

Couldn't be prouder of my team! Proved haters wrong so much, tall can hate on them now but the Warriors are clear cut better.

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 06:06 AM
Horrible performance, disappointed in this game but overall loved how the team played this whole season.

Couldn't be prouder of my team! Proved haters wrong so much, tall can hate on them now but the Warriors are clear cut better.

Yep, Went far and shut people up. Next year looks promising.


As far as defensive SGs go, there's pkrmty of crappy SGs out there. Some starters, some bench guys. It took a few minutes to find this chart:

https://m.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/335p1z/shooting_guard_defensive_impact_chart_for_201415/


And no one at the SG position (or darn near any position) is as great at offense. I'll take that. Happily. The number one reason the Rockets made it to the WCF was because of Harden, horrendous defense and all.

Haters keep hatin'.

thenaj17
05-28-2015, 07:13 AM
man he's a ballhog

He's not a ballhog...he likes sharing it with The Warriors..

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-28-2015, 08:09 AM
He's not a ballhog...he likes sharing it with The Warriors..

at least kobe was good at it

lakerfan85
05-28-2015, 08:09 AM
There's a lot of bickering going on it here..

koreancabbage
05-28-2015, 08:29 AM
they got passed the Clippers and made it to the Western Conference Finals.

how is that overrated. kudos to them making it this far. Didn't think they would.

Golden State is just that much better than any team in the West right now. Don't get what all the fuss is all about.

xbrackattackx
05-28-2015, 08:39 AM
You can't make outlandish claims and hide when they are wrong. But you get two right and try to act you know it all.

Rockets did a good job making it to the WCF. I don't like Hardens game but he carried those guys. Dwight is a man child and he lets emotion dictate his decisions.

Warriors congrats 4 more wins and you got this. Hopefully Curry,Klay and Iggy are 100% for the finals. I wish Kyrie and Love were healthy as well. This should be a fun series. Hope Curry and Thompson 3's are falling.

2-ONE-5
05-28-2015, 08:46 AM
Harden is lazy on D more often than not but its funny people waited til he had a poor game to speak up. Where were you all when he dropped 45 in game 4 when you thought they were done? The man avg 29/7/6 on 46% shooting in this series coming off a grueling 7 games with LAC where he made a historic come back to advance

IndyRealist
05-28-2015, 08:53 AM
Was he out the night before?

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 09:25 AM
Name 3 worse shooting guard defenders. Inb4 drtg spg bpg

Aren't youbthe guy that quit on the Warriors a few weeks ago? Talk about embarrassing.

So instead of answering the question you insult him?

I have no horse in this race, but you lost that argument.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2015, 09:31 AM
Without Harden, the Rockets were nothing this year. That being said, I can't think of a worse performance from a star player in an elimination game off the top of my head. Ever. He was awful.

TheIlladelph16
05-28-2015, 09:32 AM
A truly terrible performance, but a largely successful season and playoffs for him and the Rockets. I'm honestly shocked they made it out of the first and second round with 2015 version of Howard as the second piece on that team. I can remember multiple Lakers fans on here raging about how they wouldn't even make the playoffs in the west and they made it about as far as they could. Gonna have to retool that roster for next year if they want to beat GS.

FYL_McVeezy
05-28-2015, 09:50 AM
Outside of that abysmal performance by Harden, I don't think the Rockets have anything to be ashamed of...

Stole the 2 seed in the West, came back from 3-1 to beat the clips....The Warriors were just the better team. You can't expect Harden to carry them every night...esp when the refs arent giving him his usual calls LMAO....

elledaddy
05-28-2015, 09:58 AM
Its not that he had a bad game, he just didnt even look "into" the game mentally. With that being said, to say he is overated is a lil crazy. Dude is a beast with the pill, Defense...... meh

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 10:20 AM
So instead of answering the question you insult him?

I have no horse in this race, but you lost that argument.

I did answer him in my next post. Either you didn't get that far or.......

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 10:48 AM
So instead of answering the question you insult him?

I have no horse in this race, but you lost that argument.

I did answer him in my next post. Either you didn't get that far or.......

No I didn't, sorry.

Edit - is that chart suggesting that Jimmy Butler is the worst defender in the league?

72 Wins
05-28-2015, 11:09 AM
Anyone notice Ariza pulling a Dion Waiters yesterday? Basically, wide open several times and asking for the ball while Harden just danced around with the ball and ignoring everyone.

Scoots
05-28-2015, 12:36 PM
It seems to me most of the "haters" calls come from Rockets fans because they know their team is easy to hate. They play ugly. It's a fact ... but it's tiring when the Rockets fans are always acting like their team plays with a different set of rules. They all play the same game with the same rules and the rockets right now are the kings of pushing those rules to their limits ... there is always some top team in that category and right now it's the Rockets. But the incessant whining is tiring.

Harden IS a top 10 player in the NBA, and also a ball hog, a flopper, a bad defender, and an offensive genius in an often ugly offense.

I'm a Warriors fan and I find it tiring that people keep saying that they can't win as a jump shooting team or that they don't play D or that they are soft ... but I don't feel the need to call everyone "haters".

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 12:42 PM
they got passed the Clippers and made it to the Western Conference Finals.

how is that overrated. kudos to them making it this far. Didn't think they would.

Golden State is just that much better than any team in the West right now. Don't get what all the fuss is all about.

Read through every post in the thread and felt this was the cleanest. Harden had a tremendous season. He is a superstar and was a legit MVP candidate this season. I'd take him as a top 5 player moving forward ahead of everyone except Bron-KD-Curry-AD.

Corey
05-28-2015, 01:01 PM
Read through every post in the thread and felt this was the cleanest. Harden had a tremendous season. He is a superstar and was a legit MVP candidate this season. I'd take him as a top 5 player moving forward ahead of everyone except Bron-KD-Curry-AD.

If you put Harden on OKC this year instead of Wesbrook, does OKC have a better record?

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 02:22 PM
It seems to me most of the "haters" calls come from Rockets fans because they know their team is easy to hate. They play ugly. It's a fact ... but it's tiring when the Rockets fans are always acting like their team plays with a different set of rules. They all play the same game with the same rules and the rockets right now are the kings of pushing those rules to their limits ... there is always some top team in that category and right now it's the Rockets. But the incessant whining is tiring.

Harden IS a top 10 player in the NBA, and also a ball hog, a flopper, a bad defender, and an offensive genius in an often ugly offense.

I'm a Warriors fan and I find it tiring that people keep saying that they can't win as a jump shooting team or that they don't play D or that they are soft ... but I don't feel the need to call everyone "haters".

Who called the Warriors soft or that they don't play defense? C'mon, man.

It's been a few years now that we Rockets fans keep hearing all this stuff and it's old. Harden led that injury riddled team to the WCF when some people said they'd be lucky to make the playoffs. Guess what? We're still going to hear it. It's not us whining, it's just us being tired of the same ol' garbage and now hopefully people move on. I doubt it, though.

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 02:25 PM
No I didn't, sorry.

Edit - is that chart suggesting that Jimmy Butler is the worst defender in the league?

I dunno. I didn't really look at it too hard. I just found it funny that he said of all SGs in the league. That's a lot of guys. Harden is not great or even really average but he's not as bad a everyone says. Played some good post D this year against bigger guys, too. But that goes unnoticed.

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 02:28 PM
If you put Harden on OKC this year instead of Wesbrook, does OKC have a better record?

It's a GREAT question because in fairness to Westbrook, someone I regularly take a negative opinion on compared to others on PSD, he put that team on his shoulders... but I would still say yes. My counter back to you: If you put Harden on OKC next year instead of Westbrook would they have a higher ceiling?

Corey
05-28-2015, 02:34 PM
It's a GREAT question because in fairness to Westbrook, someone I regularly take a negative opinion on compared to others on PSD, he put that team on his shoulders... but I would still say yes. My counter back to you: If you put Harden on OKC next year instead of Westbrook would they have a higher ceiling?

Well played.

I think that OKC is a better with with Westbrook+KD as opposed to Harden+KD.

I think Harden and KD would overlap play styles too much. There might be a little bit better ball movement, but I think OKC is better off the way they are.

I asked you originally because I think Westbrook is a tiny step ahead of Harden. Westbrook has more defensive potential, and he can compete with every elite 1+2 in the league on both ends of the floor, and I dont think Harden can cover his position (Or the PG) well enough to put him on the same level.

rockets-fan
05-28-2015, 03:26 PM
The guy has never gone this far into the playoffs being the number 1 option... You can tell he was worn out.
81 games in the regular season carrying the team and then 3 series in the west, one going 7 games...it takes a toll.


Unlike curry, he doesn't have Klay to help him rest. Yall saw what Klay did when curry left the game

lol, please
05-28-2015, 03:47 PM
If you put Harden on OKC this year instead of Wesbrook, does OKC have a better record?

Yes.

rockets-fan
05-28-2015, 03:51 PM
Yes.

Harden actually makes teammates better so I agree with you...west can stuff that stat line all he wants, he's not a number 1 (love)

Redrum187
05-28-2015, 03:51 PM
I still don't like Harden, but I'm not letting hate blind me; He is clearly the best SG in the league today and he did a hell of a job putting Houston on his back for most of the year. This is not to take anything away from some of the other players as they proved to be vital in the Clippers series. The superior team won... Golden State is a phenomenal team; No shame in losing to them.

Not sure anyone can ignore Houston's accomplishments this season/postseason and call themselves an objective fan of the game.

lol, please
05-28-2015, 04:06 PM
Lol top 5? really? He isnt even in the top 10... Cp3/James/Wall/Curry/Davis/Westy/Durant... These guys are all better than him because most of these guys CAN PLAY 2 WAYS.... Then you have the level he is on where you can argue any of these guys with him... Melo/Howard/Dirk/Love/Harden and a few others as well... Harden is slightly better than Melo on offense and worse than melo on defense... He is right there with Melo but not a top 5 or 10 player in the league.... Oh wait I forgot psd is the place where people think offense is everything and thus defense means nothing if you score 30 a game.

:laugh2:

Corey
05-28-2015, 04:27 PM
Yes.

I dont think he could have done what Westbrook did for OKC this year.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 05:48 PM
Aren't youbthe guy that quit on the Warriors a few weeks ago? Talk about embarrassing.

Aren't you the guy who said this exact same thing to me a week or so ago and got absolutely shut down along with your buddy Verbal Christ? I already explained, in the form of multiple paragraphs which you couldn't formulate a competent response to, that when you're mad you say **** you don't mean. I spend more on Warriors tickets annually than you probably make, and I've lived in the Bay Area my entire life. I've attended literally hundreds of Warriors games, during horrible years and fantastic years, and one or two things I say on the internet doesn't change all of that.

Nice argument though, "name 3 worse shooting guard defenders", *brings up thing I did 1,000,000 seconds ago that doesn't pertain in any way to Harden's defese*. Talk about embarrassing.

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 05:48 PM
Well played.

I think that OKC is a better with with Westbrook+KD as opposed to Harden+KD.

I think Harden and KD would overlap play styles too much. There might be a little bit better ball movement, but I think OKC is better off the way they are.

I asked you originally because I think Westbrook is a tiny step ahead of Harden. Westbrook has more defensive potential, and he can compete with every elite 1+2 in the league on both ends of the floor, and I dont think Harden can cover his position (Or the PG) well enough to put him on the same level.

If Wade can play 2nd fiddle to LeBron without a reliable perimeter game then Harden can easily fit next to Durant. Defensively I won't waste my breath comparing Harden and Westbrook bc that's a battle I can't win. I just think offensively that would team would be incredibly hard to stop at the end of games whereas Westbrook-Durant had some issues.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 05:52 PM
Harden is lazy on D more often than not but its funny people waited til he had a poor game to speak up. Where were you all when he dropped 45 in game 4 when you thought they were done? The man avg 29/7/6 on 46% shooting in this series coming off a grueling 7 games with LAC where he made a historic come back to advance

You mean his team? He was bad in game 6 and 7, and was absolutely carried by his supporting cast. Tomorrow would pretty likely be game 6 of the Clippers-Warriors WCFs if it weren't for Josh Smith.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:06 PM
The average NBA player makes 3.0, 3.4 and 1.6 percentage points higher than usual through their shots from less than 10 feet, six feet and two pointers respectively when Harden is defending them. He is the easiest SG to drive on in the entire league.

Saddletramp
05-28-2015, 06:45 PM
Aren't you the guy who said this exact same thing to me a week or so ago and got absolutely shut down along with your buddy Verbal Christ? I already explained, in the form of multiple paragraphs which you couldn't formulate a competent response to, that when you're mad you say **** you don't mean. I spend more on Warriors tickets annually than you probably make, and I've lived in the Bay Area my entire life. I've attended literally hundreds of Warriors games, during horrible years and fantastic years, and one or two things I say on the internet doesn't change all of that.

That's not really that healthy to get so upset that you say a bunch of stuff that you "don't mean". Also, you've been around in the worst of times so now that they're riding high, why would you get that upset after a few losses? Maybe I could see it if the Warriors lost to the Grizz, but jeez, they lose a few games and you freaked so hard I thought you were joking and trolling Clippersfan.


Nice argument though, "name 3 worse shooting guard defenders", *brings up thing I did 1,000,000 seconds ago that doesn't pertain in any way to Harden's defese*. Talk about embarrassing.

I kinda did answer in my next post. I was kind of being a dick last night, though, so I apologize. You weren't being trolly or a jerk or anything and I sorta low blowed you.


And I'll take Harden defense if it comes with his offense. Every year.

AIRMAR72
05-28-2015, 08:36 PM
Might be having the worst Elimination game ever for a superstar player.

2-11....10 of his 14 points from free throws.... He has 13 turnovers.... His defense in this game and series might be worse than his offense in this game...When he doesn't perform offensively he brings negative to the game.. He is beyond overrated at this point. He needs to be spectacular on offense to have value.you typing MADNESS James Harden is the best SG in the 2014 -2015 NBA season it was James Harden will POWER that took Houston Rockets team to the playoff I agree that is game is WEAK due to the lack of post-up game and questionable defensive effort but at the end of day the guy gets buckets and generate points he struggled lastnite due to frustration but the Rockets team needs a penetrating defensive PG

YAALREADYKNO
05-28-2015, 08:45 PM
"****** I'm saucin money jumpin like I'm Davis from New Orleans or ****** I'm harden I don't miss nothin"
-post Malone "White Iverson"

Dope song lmao

CluTcH_c1tY
05-29-2015, 12:23 PM
PSD where the circle jerking hate all that is Harden happens. Horrific performance in the end GSW were too deep and too efficient. No shame in losing the way they did. In the off season the glaring holes need to be filled. The Rockets need a play making pg to shoulder load for Harden. I would suggest packaging the 1st round pick this year along TJones or Capela for Ty Lawson.

Corey
05-29-2015, 12:41 PM
If Wade can play 2nd fiddle to LeBron without a reliable perimeter game then Harden can easily fit next to Durant. Defensively I won't waste my breath comparing Harden and Westbrook bc that's a battle I can't win. I just think offensively that would team would be incredibly hard to stop at the end of games whereas Westbrook-Durant had some issues.

Definitely a fair argument. I could see both sides of it.

TheIlladelph16
05-29-2015, 01:23 PM
Harden is lazy on D more often than not but its funny people waited til he had a poor game to speak up. Where were you all when he dropped 45 in game 4 when you thought they were done? The man avg 29/7/6 on 46% shooting in this series coming off a grueling 7 games with LAC where he made a historic come back to advance

Yup. The Warriors/Rockets fans bickering back and forth about him is hilarious though.

Chronz
05-29-2015, 01:36 PM
Harden is lazy on D more often than not but its funny people waited til he had a poor game to speak up. Where were you all when he dropped 45 in game 4 when you thought they were done? The man avg 29/7/6 on 46% shooting in this series coming off a grueling 7 games with LAC where he made a historic come back to advance

historic? he was like the 4th best player that series and houston made their biggest comeback with him on the bench. i get that hes great but let's not overstate his greatness

Scoots
05-29-2015, 01:46 PM
Who called the Warriors soft or that they don't play defense? C'mon, man.

It's been a few years now that we Rockets fans keep hearing all this stuff and it's old. Harden led that injury riddled team to the WCF when some people said they'd be lucky to make the playoffs. Guess what? We're still going to hear it. It's not us whining, it's just us being tired of the same ol' garbage and now hopefully people move on. I doubt it, though.

I hear it every day on national sports radio and on TV ... Chuck keeps dismissing the Warriors defense, Cavs fans talk about the Warriors being soft, Rockets fans said "wait until we pound you and the Warriors break" ... people still seem to think the Warriors are soft.

countrycasanova
05-29-2015, 01:50 PM
Harden is a very talent baller and Top 10 NBA player..easily. One of the problems he has, is the remedial coaching job by Kevin McHale.

Harden's issues are the same issues Peyton Mannnings teams face in the playoffs. The majority of Peyton's teams were soley based on him, as Peyton went so went is team (no balance). Same deal with Harden. Harden is the beginnng and ending of the Rockets offensive scheme. If Harden has an off night against an elite team, the chances of the rockets winning are slim to none.

It's sad to see how Dwight Howard is an after thought in McHale's offense. Josh Smith and Brewer jack up shots with out even looking Dwight's way. I will say, Howard needs to grow a pair and demand the ball.

The Rockets offense needs to become more structered and not soley depend on Harden to have an amazing game eery night.

SouthSideRookie
05-29-2015, 01:59 PM
Lol this post is just pure hate…trust me i use to be the one saying Harden is overrated, not a playoff player, he chokes….but he more than proved me wrong this post-season, he's proved he's elite, and can go toe-to-toe with the greats in the league…he surprised me a lot, his mid-range game is elite, prob top 3 in the league in that respect…and in the top 5 overall of players in the league, at this moment
This guy was not only watching the playoffs but actually paying attention.


You mean his team? He was bad in game 6 and 7, and was absolutely carried by his supporting cast. Tomorrow would pretty likely be game 6 of the Clippers-Warriors WCFs if it weren't for Josh Smith.

Let me guess, in your mind Curry carries the Warriors right? You sound like all those fools who claim till this day that Ray Allen won Lebron his second title.


historic? he was like the 4th best player that series and houston made their biggest comeback with him on the bench. i get that hes great but let's not overstate his greatness

Kinda like Curry, imagine Harden being defended by a 37 and 38 year old, he'd probably average a triple double for the entire series. Instead he was being guarded by 4 very good defenders throughout the series. Not having a secondary playmaker turned out to be Houston's demise.

ThaDubs
05-29-2015, 03:08 PM
Let me guess, in your mind Curry carries the Warriors right? You sound like all those fools who claim till this day that Ray Allen won Lebron his second title.

No? When did I even hint at this? I never said Curry carries the Warriors, I just opposed to the idea that Harden carried them to a come back, which he didn't. However Curry does more for the Warriors than Harden does for the Rockets.

Saddletramp
05-29-2015, 06:14 PM
I hear it every day on national sports radio and on TV ... Chuck keeps dismissing the Warriors defense, Cavs fans talk about the Warriors being soft, Rockets fans said "wait until we pound you and the Warriors break" ... people still seem to think the Warriors are soft.

Chuck's usually a moron, not sure which Cavs fans you're refferring to and by "soft" I think it would mean that the worlds greatest player will beast over anyone then they're probably right, and one Rocket fan was saying the Rockets would play them more physical, which I thought was a bad idea because the Warriors are deeper and could spare losing a big for a game or two and all it would take was one shot to Hardem and the series wouldn't have even been 4-1 close.

Bogut's no slouch and Ezeli and Green are big boys. If Speights and Lee play(shows how deep they are- Speights didn't play against the Rockets with his injury and Lee barely played) They'll be fine.

Tony_Starks
05-29-2015, 06:20 PM
I can't pile on Harden, in part because I didn't believe the hype in the first place. There's a difference between the 2 best sg's in the game being hurt and actually being the best sg in the game.

I give him credit, he stepped his offensive game up all the way around and his defense went from meme worthy laughing stock to just bad and at times close to decent. Golf clap!
But he's still very young and said he's going to use this to see where he has to work on his game this summer. If that's the case then he may one day live up to "superstar" status.

Saddletramp
05-29-2015, 06:29 PM
No? When did I even hint at this? I never said Curry carries the Warriors, I just opposed to the idea that Harden carried them to a come back, which he didn't. However Curry does more for the Warriors than Harden does for the Rockets.


If Harden's off, the Rockets almost always lose. Smith and Brewer carried them in that Clippers game 6 but that probably wouldn't happen again in 10 games if Harden was out the fourth and the Rockets were down by 13. Curry has a bad game and he's got a


It's been done to death. Curry was the MVP and he deserved it. But Harden was the guy most valuable to his team, maybe LeBron and part of that was that the Cavs don't make most of the deals that they made if LeBron didn't sign back with them.

PraiseJesus
05-29-2015, 06:58 PM
Harden got owned

CluTcH_c1tY
05-29-2015, 08:26 PM
No? When did I even hint at this? I never said Curry carries the Warriors, I just opposed to the idea that Harden carried them to a come back, which he didn't. However Curry does more for the Warriors than Harden does for the Rockets.
Lol wow take off your Homer glasses. There has been many nights and I mean many nights Klay has out performed Curry. The warriors are crazy deep and have versatile players. Meanwhile the Rockets go as Harden goes. If Harden ***** the bed most likely they end up getting beat or ran out the gym. I'm not taking anything away from Curry he was deserving of the MVP but he wasn't as important to his team as Harden was for the Rockets.

curtcocaine
05-29-2015, 08:42 PM
I seriously threw up when Brewer, Ariza, and Terry all chucked up shots trying to draw fouls... embarrassing.
You may be in 2 deep.

ThaDubs
05-29-2015, 08:51 PM
If Harden's off, the Rockets almost always lose. Smith and Brewer carried them in that Clippers game 6 but that probably wouldn't happen again in 10 games if Harden was out the fourth and the Rockets were down by 13. Curry has a bad game and he's got a


It's been done to death. Curry was the MVP and he deserved it. But Harden was the guy most valuable to his team, maybe LeBron and part of that was that the Cavs don't make most of the deals that they made if LeBron didn't sign back with them.

I don't understand this weird idea of "value" that fans seem to have regarding Harden and Curry. Curry's stats are better both on a per minute basis and in terms of advanced stats, therefore he's a player who adds more value to whatever team he plays on than Harden. He does more than Harden as a player for whatever team he plays for. Therefore he literally is a more valuable basketball player.

ThaDubs
05-29-2015, 08:54 PM
Let's say the Rockets have 10 "greatness points". Harden contributes 5 greatness points to their total of 10.

The Warriors, one of the most dominant teams in league history, have 15 greatness points. Curry contributes 6 greatness points to their total of 15.

Now Harden might account for 50% of their "greatness", and Curry only 40%, but Curry still adds more value. 6 is higher than 5, no matter how you look at it.

Saddletramp
05-29-2015, 09:56 PM
Let's say the Rockets have 10 "greatness points". Harden contributes 5 greatness points to their total of 10.

The Warriors, one of the most dominant teams in league history, have 15 greatness points. Curry contributes 6 greatness points to their total of 15.

Now Harden might account for 50% of their "greatness", and Curry only 40%, but Curry still adds more value. 6 is higher than 5, no matter how you look at it.

What are you talking about? Tha Dubs Greatness Point scale is found where? Just please, dude.


Here's the Saddletramp Scale:

Every team has a 10 point scale relative to their success.

Harden accounts for, what, 7? 8? With Howard out for half the year, as well as Jones and Motiejunas, Bev, Brewer, Smith and Papanikoloau (regular rotation players at one time or another this season) not being there for huge chunks either because of injuries or before they were traded there, Harden earns about that much. And it's telling that I added KPap in there because mid way through the season he was playing a lot of minutes. He was the Rockets Iggy for awhile. Let that sink in. And the backup center for much of the year was Dorsey, who got best out in the post season by a 20 year old rookie.

Take away the fact that Kerr had on his coaching staff a guy like Alvin Gentry that lead an amazing offense in PHX after Mike D left and is in discussion for other jobs now, too. The Warriors weren't this great before this year for a lot of reasons, not just Curry.

Curry would probably be 5? 6?

What if Bogut missed half the year like Dwight did? Or Green missed half the year like Jones did? Or Klay missed as many games as Bev? Or Iggy missed a cool 20 like Poppa did? Or Speights and Barbossa didn't show up until December? Or what if all of those things happened? And those GS players are mostly better than their Rocket counterparts.


The Warriors put together the best team in the NBA this year and it's not really close. The only guys that did more for their team didn't have the stacked *** team like the Warriors did and I'm totally giving GS props for that, but give Harden his props, too (and LBJ, too) Not only were they awesomely assembled but they also stayed healthy (thanks, depth!), had a great system and the players totally got **** done.

If I were you, I'd look ahead instead of trolling Harden and the Rockets, but there's a few things that separate us, not just that.

PraiseJesus
05-29-2015, 10:18 PM
Curry absolutely owns Harden at nearly every facet of the game and humiliated him in the playoffs

The MVP voting wasn't even close. The only discussion was on this website and on talk shows looking for ratings

Jayb587
05-29-2015, 11:33 PM
yall trippen on harden. Hes a beast and still meant more to his team all year then curry did, don't care what you say.

ThaDubs
05-30-2015, 12:53 AM
What are you talking about? Tha Dubs Greatness Point scale is found where? Just please, dude.


Here's the Saddletramp Scale:

Every team has a 10 point scale relative to their success.

Harden accounts for, what, 7? 8? With Howard out for half the year, as well as Jones and Motiejunas, Bev, Brewer, Smith and Papanikoloau (regular rotation players at one time or another this season) not being there for huge chunks either because of injuries or before they were traded there, Harden earns about that much. And it's telling that I added KPap in there because mid way through the season he was playing a lot of minutes. He was the Rockets Iggy for awhile. Let that sink in. And the backup center for much of the year was Dorsey, who got best out in the post season by a 20 year old rookie.

Take away the fact that Kerr had on his coaching staff a guy like Alvin Gentry that lead an amazing offense in PHX after Mike D left and is in discussion for other jobs now, too. The Warriors weren't this great before this year for a lot of reasons, not just Curry.

Curry would probably be 5? 6?

What if Bogut missed half the year like Dwight did? Or Green missed half the year like Jones did? Or Klay missed as many games as Bev? Or Iggy missed a cool 20 like Poppa did? Or Speights and Barbossa didn't show up until December? Or what if all of those things happened? And those GS players are mostly better than their Rocket counterparts.


The Warriors put together the best team in the NBA this year and it's not really close. The only guys that did more for their team didn't have the stacked *** team like the Warriors did and I'm totally giving GS props for that, but give Harden his props, too (and LBJ, too) Not only were they awesomely assembled but they also stayed healthy (thanks, depth!), had a great system and the players totally got **** done.

If I were you, I'd look ahead instead of trolling Harden and the Rockets, but there's a few things that separate us, not just that.

I generally tend to agree with most of your points but the simple fact that Curry is a better player objectively proves that he's more valuable. Better = more value. The Rockets without Harden are what, a 10th seed? Definitely not in the playoffs. With Harden? 56 wins. That's seriously impressive. The Warriors without Curry. Let's say Shaun Livingston is the starting point. We would be the 8th seed. With Curry, we are one of the most dominant teams in the history of the league. It's not a very hard concept to understand. Harden is more proportionally important to the Rockets, but Curry has a legit case for being the best player in the league right now (I still think LeBron is better but my point stands) and literally contributes more to the teams success than Harden does to his. Curry does more things than Harden, and is a more valuable player than him regardless of team.

ThaDubs
05-30-2015, 01:01 AM
yall trippen on harden. Hes a beast and still meant more to his team all year then curry did, don't care what you say.

God, why doesn't everyone think this? My point that saddle tried to clown TOTALLY stands. The Rockets were far worse than the Warriors this year (as were all teams), so what Curry did for the Warriors is not as proportionally important as what Harden did for the Rockets. But Curry still did more for the Warriors than Harden did for the Rockets. Curry contributed better per minute stats, a higher PER, led the league in WS/48. He is a more valuable basketball player than James Harden, and what team he plays for DOES NOT AFFECT THAT.

lol, please
05-30-2015, 01:09 AM
God, why doesn't everyone think this? My point that saddle tried to clown TOTALLY stands. The Rockets were far worse than the Warriors this year (as were all teams), so what Curry did for the Warriors is not as proportionally important as what Harden did for the Rockets. But Curry still did more for the Warriors than Harden did for the Rockets. Curry contributed better per minute stats, a higher PER, led the league in WS/48. He is a more valuable basketball player than James Harden, and what team he plays for DOES NOT AFFECT THAT.
Good luck trying to convince anyone outside of warrior nation that Harden isn't more valuable to his team than curry ThaDubs. :sigh:

tredigs
05-30-2015, 01:09 AM
Curry absolutely owns Harden at nearly every facet of the game and humiliated him in the playoffs

The MVP voting wasn't even close. The only discussion was on this website and on talk shows looking for ratings

Curry beasting in the playoffs must be equally HUMILIATING for you, right? I mean, considering you openly commented that he'd be a playoff failure and such? I mean, man -- to be so right about a kid succeeding in the regular season 5 years ago only to denounce any possibility of him having playoff success 3 years ago must take a toll. You must feel like a tool for second guessing yourself so proudly, yeah?

If only you were smart enough to see through the glitz of All Star game weekend.

If only. But, unfortunately, to the losers lounge you go -- >

Saddletramp
05-30-2015, 01:53 AM
Curry beasting in the playoffs must be equally HUMILIATING for you, right? I mean, considering you openly commented that he'd be a playoff failure and such? I mean, man -- to be so right about a kid succeeding in the regular season 5 years ago only to denounce any possibility of him having playoff success 3 years ago must take a toll. You must feel like a tool for second guessing yourself so proudly, yeah?

If only you were smart enough to see through the glitz of All Star game weekend.

If only. But, unfortunately, to the losers lounge you go -- >

Everything else aside, he won't answer. He's another **** talker that disappears kind of guy and I wish all those guys would get banned.

kubernetes
05-30-2015, 02:54 AM
My issues with Harden lie with his consistency, especially in the playoffs. He just checked out in 2 out of 5 games this series. He checked out a couple times in the Clippers series too. That's just too many bad games for a player at his level (yes, top 5).

And it's also what his bad games look like. Bad shooting nights happen to superstars, but Harden doesn't find other ways to contribute when he's off. The other night Lebron went 0-10 to start the game. He finished with an awful percentage too, but if you watched the game it was obvious that he was just dominating the game on both ends of the floor. Curry had a couple bad shooting nights, but he still contributed positively moving off the ball and by making plays.
Harden starts off shooting badly (or not getting calls) and he becomes a detriment to his team. The fact that he only put up 11 shot attempts is nuts.

kubernetes
05-30-2015, 02:54 AM
Oops, dupe post.

Goose17
05-30-2015, 03:04 AM
Curry beasting in the playoffs must be equally HUMILIATING for you, right? I mean, considering you openly commented that he'd be a playoff failure and such? I mean, man -- to be so right about a kid succeeding in the regular season 5 years ago only to denounce any possibility of him having playoff success 3 years ago must take a toll. You must feel like a tool for second guessing yourself so proudly, yeah?

If only you were smart enough to see through the glitz of All Star game weekend.

If only. But, unfortunately, to the losers lounge you go -- >

Is he the guy that proclaimed Irving as the next MVP due to his performance at the ASG? Or was that someone different.

That was hilarious.

Munkeysuit
05-30-2015, 03:33 AM
Harden's definitely overrated in the leadership and composure department thats for sure! but his basketball skills and abilities are definitely NOT overrated.

More-Than-Most
05-30-2015, 03:50 AM
Curry absolutely owns Harden at nearly every facet of the game and humiliated him in the playoffs

The MVP voting wasn't even close. The only discussion was on this website and on talk shows looking for ratings

This.... Curry is a top 10 player... I harden to me is somewhere around 15-20.... Curry can do everything harden can do but he can play defense.

ThaDubs
05-30-2015, 04:18 AM
This.... Curry is a top 10 player... I harden to me is somewhere around 15-20.... Curry can do everything harden can do but he can play defense.

Curry is a top 2 player.

More-Than-Most
05-30-2015, 04:54 AM
Curry is a top 2 player.

Na one top 3 year doesn't do it for me sorry. I still have CP3/James/Durant ahead of him. Curry has been amazing the last 3 years no doubt but James/Durant/Cp3 have been better... This year curry was better but curry was better on a much more stacked team... James and CP3 carried more of the Load to me and Durant was Injured... 1 year doesnt jump him above James/Durant and he is right there with CP3 but Id give CP3 the edge because of how careful with the ball he is plus CP3 plays insane defense. If you wanna argue Curry over paul I wont fight it... But he isnt better than James or Durant. This year Durant played in 27 games and in those games he was still better than curry... I am not gonna drop a guy after being hurt from a freak Injury.

ThaDubs
05-30-2015, 05:16 AM
Na one top 3 year doesn't do it for me sorry. I still have CP3/James/Durant ahead of him. Curry has been amazing the last 3 years no doubt but James/Durant/Cp3 have been better... This year curry was better but curry was better on a much more stacked team... James and CP3 carried more of the Load to me and Durant was Injured... 1 year doesnt jump him above James/Durant and he is right there with CP3 but Id give CP3 the edge because of how careful with the ball he is plus CP3 plays insane defense. If you wanna argue Curry over paul I wont fight it... But he isnt better than James or Durant. This year Durant played in 27 games and in those games he was still better than curry... I am not gonna drop a guy after being hurt from a freak Injury.

This is the present. And in the present, Curry is playing better basketball than Chris Paul has in like half a decade+. Durant was not better than Curry in the 27 games he played, but I'm sure if Durant was healthy I'd be calling Curry a top 3 player rather than top 2.

Goose17
05-30-2015, 06:08 AM
Na one top 3 year doesn't do it for me sorry. I still have CP3/James/Durant ahead of him. Curry has been amazing the last 3 years no doubt but James/Durant/Cp3 have been better... This year curry was better but curry was better on a much more stacked team... James and CP3 carried more of the Load to me and Durant was Injured... 1 year doesnt jump him above James/Durant and he is right there with CP3 but Id give CP3 the edge because of how careful with the ball he is plus CP3 plays insane defense. If you wanna argue Curry over paul I wont fight it... But he isnt better than James or Durant. This year Durant played in 27 games and in those games he was still better than curry... I am not gonna drop a guy after being hurt from a freak Injury.

With that logic. You should have Garnett over Davis. Correct? Since the level Davis is at now he's only been at this year and Garnett has multiple years of high level playing? Or Blake Griffin over Davis?

I disagree with your reasoning. And Curry this year > any year of CP3's career.

I agree with what you're saying about Durant and LeBron though.

Off the top of my head I think my top 5 now would look something like...

LeBron
Durant
Curry
Davis
Blake or Harden

I've probably forgotten someone though.

lol, please
05-30-2015, 06:52 AM
With that logic. You should have Garnett over Davis. Correct? Since the level Davis is at now he's only been at this year and Garnett has multiple years of high level playing? Or Blake Griffin over Davis?

I disagree with your reasoning. And Curry this year > any year of CP3's career.

I agree with what you're saying about Durant and LeBron though.

Off the top of my head I think my top 5 now would look something like...

LeBron
Durant
Curry
Davis
Blake or Harden

I've probably forgotten someone though.
Garnett is clearly declining so it's not the same thing as a player who was otherwise at their peak. Durant was injured. I never punish a player by dropping their ranking because they were injured personally. Now if the injury prevents them from returning to play at the same level, that's another story.

With Davis it's different, like scoots is on lebron nuts I'm on davis, I think he goes down as #2 all time barring injury, otherwise I absolutely need to see more than one good season before I can consider a level of play a standard of thst player. Outliers exist, regression happens.

Goose17
05-30-2015, 07:47 AM
Garnett is clearly declining so it's not the same thing as a player who was otherwise at their peak. Durant was injured. I never punish a player by dropping their ranking because they were injured personally. Now if the injury prevents them from returning to play at the same level, that's another story.

With Davis it's different, like scoots is on lebron nuts I'm on davis, I think he goes down as #2 all time barring injury, otherwise I absolutely need to see more than one good season before I can consider a level of play a standard of thst player. Outliers exist, regression happens.

Wait. You think Davis is the 2nd best player of all time? He's not even the second best player at his position all time. Hell he's not even top 10. Come on. He hasnt done anything in this league. That's ridiculous. He's got a long way to go defensively. And his post game needs some serious work. By the end of his career who knows but you can't put him up against the top 10 all time yet never mind top 5.

And it is the same thing. Doesn't matter who's declining. His argument was longevity over current events. So Blake Griffin > Davis. Aldridge > Davis. That's what his logic dictates.

Curry is better than CP3 now. Regardless of what CP3 has done in the past and this season for Steph was more impressive than any individual season for CP3. CP3 at his peak was never this good. Let alone now.

Denverbronco007
05-30-2015, 10:25 AM
Don't hate on Harden. Dudes only 25. Conference finals = lots of pressure. He def gained a lot of experience just being in that position. Houston will come back strong next year. Lets remember 2 starters didnt play in the postseason. Beverly could have played better d agaisnt Curry, and Montiejunas would have crushed it on the low post. That could have made a difference

ThaDubs
05-30-2015, 12:19 PM
With that logic. You should have Garnett over Davis. Correct? Since the level Davis is at now he's only been at this year and Garnett has multiple years of high level playing? Or Blake Griffin over Davis?

I disagree with your reasoning. And Curry this year > any year of CP3's career.

I agree with what you're saying about Durant and LeBron though.

Off the top of my head I think my top 5 now would look something like...

LeBron
Durant
Curry
Davis
Blake or Harden

I've probably forgotten someone though.

I totally agree with you on almost everything but just wanted to point out, CP3 had a year with NOLA where he averaged 22.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 11 apg, 2.8 spg, and only 2.5 tovp36 on .503/.364/.868 shooting. Probably the best season in the history of the point guard position. 30 PER, nearly .300 WS/48. Steph will be lucky to play like that next season.

Goose17
05-30-2015, 12:50 PM
I totally agree with you on almost everything but just wanted to point out, CP3 had a year with NOLA where he averaged 22.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 11 apg, 2.8 spg, and only 2.5 tovp36 on .503/.364/.868 shooting. Probably the best season in the history of the point guard position. 30 PER, nearly .300 WS/48. Steph will be lucky to play like that next season.

Like I told you in the other thread. PER is one stat. It's completely useless out of context. It means absolutely nothing. VORP, ORTG etc mean way much more. And those other numbers are nice and all, but how many MVP awards did he win that year? How far did he get in the playoffs? Just saying... it's not about numbers buddy.

Scoots
05-30-2015, 01:05 PM
We all know that stats put up with a bad team mean a LOT less than stats put up with a good team ... so why do people feel the need to penalize Curry for the quality of his team? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't we be MORE impressed that Curry still manages to put up those numbers with efficiency on such a good team?

lol, please
05-30-2015, 01:10 PM
Wait. You think Davis is the 2nd best player of all time? He's not even the second best player at his position all time. Hell he's not even top 10. Come on. He hasnt done anything in this league. That's ridiculous. He's got a long way to go defensively. And his post game needs some serious work. By the end of his career who knows but you can't put him up against the top 10 all time yet never mind top 5.

And it is the same thing. Doesn't matter who's declining. His argument was longevity over current events. So Blake Griffin > Davis. Aldridge > Davis. That's what his logic dictates.

Curry is better than CP3 now. Regardless of what CP3 has done in the past and this season for Steph was more impressive than any individual season for CP3. CP3 at his peak was never this good. Let alone now.
Um no, when I brought up Durant, davis, and curry I was talking about best in the league right now. Thought that was pretty clear

tr3ymill3r
05-30-2015, 01:21 PM
thug like... Not even kidding that was just embarrassing for their franchise... Cheap shot after cheap shot

What cheap shots? The closest thing would have been the screen Dwight put on Iggy, but you would thought Dwight hit him with a bat the way he sold it only to return after the TV timeout 2 minutes later.

lol, please
05-30-2015, 01:28 PM
What cheap shots? The closest thing would have been the screen Dwight put on Iggy, but you would thought Dwight hit him with a bat the way he sold it only to return after the TV timeout 2 minutes later.
Harden got away with alot that other players wouldn't that series, did you even watch the games? Lol.

PS I love watching Mario bang 1UP coins out of the Princess, I envy his stamina.

kubernetes
05-30-2015, 04:04 PM
We all know that stats put up with a bad team mean a LOT less than stats put up with a good team ... so why do people feel the need to penalize Curry for the quality of his team? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't we be MORE impressed that Curry still manages to put up those numbers with efficiency on such a good team?

That's a debate that will never be laid to rest.

That was the argument against Kevin Love, e.g. 'He's just a stat monster because he's on a team of scrubs.'

At some point it just comes down to an eye test. For instance, with Lebron I think it's obvious that he elevates the play of those around him, rather than stat-stuffing at the expense of his team.

More-Than-Most
05-30-2015, 07:14 PM
Like I told you in the other thread. PER is one stat. It's completely useless out of context. It means absolutely nothing. VORP, ORTG etc mean way much more. And those other numbers are nice and all, but how many MVP awards did he win that year? How far did he get in the playoffs? Just saying... it's not about numbers buddy.

So now you are judging an individual on a team award like MVP and playoff wins and losses? Yes team award in MVP because the person that has a great year on the team that wins the most gets the award... CP3 had a better year than curry ever did and now you go to wins/losses and mvp award as your defense? Right now curry was only slightly better than cp3 even this year which is currys best year... Your entire argument with KG is dumb because cp3 is still playing at a top 5 level in all of basketball.... Again CP3 is a far better defender than curry and was close to him this year on the offensive end. Curry is not ahead of cp3 sorry. Durant was also better in his 27 games and it wasnt close... Durant/James/cp3 are all ahead of curry. You say its all about this year... Does that mean curry is now better than James as well because he had a better year than James too.

Goose17
05-31-2015, 07:40 AM
So now you are judging an individual on a team award like MVP and playoff wins and losses? Yes team award in MVP because the person that has a great year on the team that wins the most gets the award... CP3 had a better year than curry ever did and now you go to wins/losses and mvp award as your defense? Right now curry was only slightly better than cp3 even this year which is currys best year... Your entire argument with KG is dumb because cp3 is still playing at a top 5 level in all of basketball.... Again CP3 is a far better defender than curry and was close to him this year on the offensive end. Curry is not ahead of cp3 sorry. Durant was also better in his 27 games and it wasnt close... Durant/James/cp3 are all ahead of curry. You say its all about this year... Does that mean curry is now better than James as well because he had a better year than James too.

Every advanced metric says Curry was better defensively this year than CP3. All of them. It wasn't even close.

Curry is ahead of CP3 now. CP3 is past his peak. And even at his peak he never had a season as good as this, in terms of stats sure but even then he didn't have the MVP, he's never been to a conference final despite multiple opportunities. He lacks the leadership qualities that Steph has. He's never been the threat offensively that Steph is. He's not the transcendent player that Steph is.

Steph is better than Chris Paul and it's not even up for debate anymore imo.

And yes he's better than LeBron THIS year. But LeBron is still the better player because he's had better seasons than Steph has ever had. And that's seasons. Plural. CP3 has never put up numbers like this AND had as much success at the same time.

It's like saying Love is better than Blake because Love has put up better numbers one year when he was on a crappy team and his stats were inflated.

Goose17
05-31-2015, 07:41 AM
Chris Paul isn't even top 5 now.

LeBron, KD, Steph, Davis, Harden, Griffin. Put them in whatever order you want I don't care that much. But they're all better than CP3.

ThaDubs
05-31-2015, 02:36 PM
So now you are judging an individual on a team award like MVP and playoff wins and losses? Yes team award in MVP because the person that has a great year on the team that wins the most gets the award... CP3 had a better year than curry ever did and now you go to wins/losses and mvp award as your defense? Right now curry was only slightly better than cp3 even this year which is currys best year... Your entire argument with KG is dumb because cp3 is still playing at a top 5 level in all of basketball.... Again CP3 is a far better defender than curry and was close to him this year on the offensive end. Curry is not ahead of cp3 sorry. Durant was also better in his 27 games and it wasnt close... Durant/James/cp3 are all ahead of curry. You say its all about this year... Does that mean curry is now better than James as well because he had a better year than James too.

KD was not better than Curry in his 27 games bro, not sure why you keep saying that. Also Curry had a year very superior to LeBron's. CP3 was better than Curry a couple years ago, not anymore.

flea
05-31-2015, 02:45 PM
Lol at these Warriors fans who seriously think Curry is a better defender than Paul. If you spend most of your time hidden in your team's scheme, you're not better than the best PG defender in the league. Curry went from bad to maybe average defensively, but he still doesn't do much all that well except not screw up and gamble going behind ballhanders. He's got good hands but so did AI and nobody thinks AI is a better defender than CP3.

Offensively, probably a different story. I think Curry and CP3 are both very close offensively, and both possibly better than Lebron already. If they aren't they will be very soon. Between the two it's tough to say considering they play very different roles even if they play the same position. CP3 is probably the best P&R player since Nash (who is the best I have ever seen at it). Curry is the best scorer currently in the league - at the very least while Durant is hurt.

Harden, well he had a LeBoner level performance in the closeout game. Still a good scorer, but not a great scorer, and as you can see he can really give games away when he plays poorly. When so much of your offense is wrapped up in one guy who isn't an extraordinary scorer or distributor that can happen sometimes - just like on Lebron's teams.

Goose17
05-31-2015, 04:01 PM
This year he was better than CP3 defensively. Obviously prior to this year it's not even close.

As for offensively. Curry wins. Every time.

lol, please
05-31-2015, 04:15 PM
Are people seriously trying to make a case for Paul over Curry? [emoji23]

Also, I love this new myth that has emerged that Curry is somehow the product of a system. Lmao.

PraiseJesus
05-31-2015, 04:43 PM
The best way to solve this is to figure what player would be selected the NBAdid a complete redraft today

IMO

1. LeBron
2a. Curry
2b. A Davis

Those are your top 3 players

Scoots
05-31-2015, 05:03 PM
The best way to solve this is to figure what player would be selected the NBAdid a complete redraft today

IMO

1. LeBron
2a. Curry
2b. A Davis

Those are your top 3 players

Not if they were re-drafted today ... if it was today it would be A. Davis first by a MILE. I don't know that LeBron would make the top 10 (pretty old at 30 at this point when you can pick from all of the quality youngsters in the NBA).

KnicksorBust
05-31-2015, 05:51 PM
The best way to solve this is to figure what player would be selected the NBAdid a complete redraft today

IMO

1. LeBron
2a. Curry
2b. A Davis

Those are your top 3 players

Not if they were re-drafted today ... if it was today it would be A. Davis first by a MILE. I don't know that LeBron would make the top 10 (pretty old at 30 at this point when you can pick from all of the quality youngsters in the NBA).

Either PJ misspoke or he is dead wrong. You are right. Anthony Davis would be #1. BUT if it was for one season Lebron still goes 1.

kubernetes
05-31-2015, 07:03 PM
Not if they were re-drafted today ... if it was today it would be A. Davis first by a MILE. I don't know that LeBron would make the top 10 (pretty old at 30 at this point when you can pick from all of the quality youngsters in the NBA).

They might take Curry or Davis ahead of him, but after that I think any team in the league would be willing to bet on Lebron for 3-4 years.

PraiseJesus
05-31-2015, 07:43 PM
Either PJ misspoke or he is dead wrong. You are right. Anthony Davis would be #1. BUT if it was for one season Lebron still goes 1.

yes I meant for 1 season

Bruno
05-31-2015, 08:09 PM
Might be having the worst Elimination game ever for a superstar player.

2-11....10 of his 14 points from free throws.... He has 13 turnovers.... His defense in this game and series might be worse than his offense in this game...When he doesn't perform offensively he brings negative to the game.. He is beyond overrated at this point. He needs to be spectacular on offense to have value.

my take is that Harden had some excellent games against Golden State, and some very poor games. Despite the now ruled 12 turnovers in the close out game, he only finished with 23 turnovers for the five game series. So before game five he had 11 turnovers through four games (2.75 per game) which is excellent for a player with his kind of usage (30% for the series).

If you look at the series page on basketball-reference, Harden only trailed Curry by 1.7 in cumulative game score for the series. 24.7 for Curry, 23.0 for Harden.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015_WCF_HOU-GSW.html

I think the Rockets play very hard and overachieved. I think they had no business getting past the Clippers, the fact that they did is a testament to how hard they worked. stuff like obscene turnover totals and poor FG% is usually a result of fatigue, and Harden fits the bill as a guy who lead the NBA in minutes.

Josh Smith lead Houston in USG% for the GS series. If Harden had a more qualified #2 option on offense he wouldn't get so fatigued carrying them, maybe he doesn't play a poor game five, maybe Houston gets that game when he got stopped by Curry and Thompson.

GREATNESS ONE
05-31-2015, 09:05 PM
Hey PraiseJesus, what happened to you? You seem to have disappeared all playoffs. What happened to Houston and Golden State not going far theses playoffs?

:laugh2:

He's praising in the Lakers Forum that D'Angelo Russll is the second coming.

JasonJohnHorn
06-01-2015, 02:41 AM
This is HILARIOUS!!! I love PSD. The site where one week a guy helps his team win a series they had no business winning, and then people ask how he ranks among all-time Rockets, followed by a series the should have been swept in and talking about how overrated he is.

He's awesome. He had a bad series. The Warriors have a deceptively good defensive team. People praise Green and Iggy's always had a reputation as a great defender, but even Klay knows how to move on defense, and Kerr has done more than improve this team's offense. And with a solid lane-clogging defender like Bogut cutting off Harden's options and an injury depleted Rockets' roster not helping him open things up.... Harden was overwhelmed.

If Harden had Marc Gasol instead of Dwight on offense, it would have been a very different series for Harden.


Harden is an All-Star and franchise player. Not the best in the league, but a top-ten player certainly. Is he overrated? Sure. I'd say so, but he's also underpaid and still deserving of most of the accolades he gets. A bad series against a clearly superior team is not unreasonable or career ending.

More-Than-Most
06-01-2015, 02:54 AM
Every advanced metric says Curry was better defensively this year than CP3. All of them. It wasn't even close.

Curry is ahead of CP3 now. CP3 is past his peak. And even at his peak he never had a season as good as this, in terms of stats sure but even then he didn't have the MVP, he's never been to a conference final despite multiple opportunities. He lacks the leadership qualities that Steph has. He's never been the threat offensively that Steph is. He's not the transcendent player that Steph is.

Steph is better than Chris Paul and it's not even up for debate anymore imo.

And yes he's better than LeBron THIS year. But LeBron is still the better player because he's had better seasons than Steph has ever had. And that's seasons. Plural. CP3 has never put up numbers like this AND had as much success at the same time.

It's like saying Love is better than Blake because Love has put up better numbers one year when he was on a crappy team and his stats were inflated.

lol i get you love curry and so do I but you are delusional if you think he is a better defender than CP3... Again you do realize CP3 was a top 5 player this year as well and an argument could be made for him deserving that MVP... Curry won it and desirably so but CP3 was right there with him but gets little to no recognition as usual but was almost just as good with less help. CP3 has been better almost every year leading up to this year... Curry winning the MVP does not all a sudden make him a better player.... He is not better than James/Durant and not a better way player than cp3... People underrate the great PG since magic Johnson... Oh yea and if you think Durant wasn't better than Curry in the 27 games he played go look at just these numbers. in 27 games he averaged 25/7/4 on 51 percent shooting... Curry for the year Avg 24/4/8 on 48 percent shooting... Its close but Durant was better. Had he maintained that all year like we know he can he would have been better... Curry is amazing but 1 mvp year doesnt put him in front of 3 guys that have been the insane almost every year and still insane with little to no drop off and are more all around better players.

nastynice
06-01-2015, 04:03 AM
You may be in 2 deep.

Mr Mr scarface represent the nine deuce
U got a 9 **** you ***** I got a nine too

:nod: :nod: lol

DitchDat
06-01-2015, 06:36 AM
Agreed, I was very disapppointed by his stat line.

Tony_Starks
06-01-2015, 10:10 AM
Chris Paul isn't even top 5 now.

LeBron, KD, Steph, Davis, Harden, Griffin. Put them in whatever order you want I don't care that much. But they're all better than CP3.

Griffin, Harden, and Davis are in NO way better than CP3. CP3 on one leg just closed out the Spurs when it mattered.

valade16
06-01-2015, 10:41 AM
Every advanced metric says Curry was better defensively this year than CP3. All of them. It wasn't even close.

Curry is ahead of CP3 now. CP3 is past his peak. And even at his peak he never had a season as good as this, in terms of stats sure but even then he didn't have the MVP, he's never been to a conference final despite multiple opportunities. He lacks the leadership qualities that Steph has. He's never been the threat offensively that Steph is. He's not the transcendent player that Steph is.

Steph is better than Chris Paul and it's not even up for debate anymore imo.

And yes he's better than LeBron THIS year. But LeBron is still the better player because he's had better seasons than Steph has ever had. And that's seasons. Plural. CP3 has never put up numbers like this AND had as much success at the same time.

It's like saying Love is better than Blake because Love has put up better numbers one year when he was on a crappy team and his stats were inflated.

Was gonna say CP3's 08-09 season was better than Steph's in virtually every advanced statistic. He was also 2nd in the MVP voting that year and many people believe he should have won the MVP that season.

curtcocaine
06-01-2015, 12:20 PM
Griffin, Harden, and Davis are in NO way better than CP3. CP3 on one leg just closed out the Spurs when it mattered.
Id say Davis is better right now

Goose17
06-01-2015, 12:56 PM
Was gonna say CP3's 08-09 season was better than Steph's in virtually every advanced statistic. He was also 2nd in the MVP voting that year and many people believe he should have won the MVP that season.

Yeah but he did that on a crappy team. Inflated stats.

Goose17
06-01-2015, 01:25 PM
lol i get you love curry and so do I but you are delusional if you think he is a better defender than CP3...

This year he was. Every advanced metric proves you wrong.

DRPM; Curry 1.69, CP3 0.50 (Curry was 4th out of all PGs in DRPM, CP3 was 13th) for comparison sake, last year CP3 was 4th out of all PGs. He's fallen off tremendously and Steph has improved A LOT.


DWS; Curry 4.0, CP3 3.2
STL%; Curry 3.1, CP3 2.8
DFG%; Curry 40.5, CP3 42.4


On average Steph held opponents he defended to 2.8% below their average FG%. CP3 held opponents to 1.7% below their average FG%

Players shot 2% BETTER on 3pt FG% when CP3 was defending them compared to their season average. They shot 1% worse from 3pt FG% when Curry was defending them compared to their season average.

Just look at the way Steph is playing this year, he's made use of his quick hands, deflecting passes especially in pick and roll situations, he's not reaching in as much or making bad decisions in that regard. He only seems to try and pick someones pocket when he's squared up right in front of them and they expose the ball, even for a second. He doesn't force it anymore. The only players that are superior in Steals:Fouls ratio are Butler and Leonard. He's just gotten smarter defensively, even when guys post him up he plays them the right way. Meanwhile, CP3 has had a dramatic fall off.


Again you do realize CP3 was a top 5 player this year as well and an argument could be made for him deserving that MVP...

There is literally no case to be made for anyone not named Stephen Curry or James Harden. Those two were front runners and it wasn't even close.



CP3 has been better almost every year leading up to this year... Curry winning the MVP does not all a sudden make him a better player....

All time? Of course not. Right now? Yes. Yes it does. Absolutely.

That's like saying Dwight was better than Davis and just because Davis was better than Dwight this year doesn't make him the better player. It's absolute B.S we're dealing with right now, the past is the past. Today is today. And today, Steph is by far the best point guard in the league and superior to CP3. Anyone who can't see that is in denial.



He is not better than James/Durant

Never said he was.



Griffin, Harden, and Davis are in NO way better than CP3. CP3 on one leg just closed out the Spurs when it mattered.

Yes they are. CP3 had one great series, well done to him. Then he lost to Harden and Houston, the Clippers were the better team and they lost, same old story with them. Harden right now is better than CP3 right now. Blake has been superior to Chris for at least two seasons now. CP3 isn't even on Davis level in his prime never mind now.

valade16
06-01-2015, 01:59 PM
Yeah but he did that on a crappy team. Inflated stats.

What are you talking about? That team went 49-33 in the West. If they were a crappy team even more praise should go to CP3 for taking a crappy team to such an impressive record in the Western Conference...

Goose17
06-01-2015, 02:11 PM
What are you talking about? That team went 49-33 in the West. If they were a crappy team even more praise should go to CP3 for taking a crappy team to such an impressive record in the Western Conference...

He does deserve praise for leading them to such a record. Who else did they have that was creating their own shot and getting buckets? I mean they had Chandler but he's a defense guy he's never been on a team for scoring. West was a good mid range player and had a great year. Outside of him though there wasn't really anyone. I don't even know who their third best scorer was? Butler? I mean he could shoot but.. really? CP3 was everything on that team. His stats were inflated a la Minnesota Love. Outside of West nobody else was putting up numbers and even then I'm willing to bet a ton of West's shots were assisted on (by Paul).

I'm not denying he's a great player. I'm not denying throughout his career his defense has been better than Steph.

I am saying that the numbers, along with the success that Stephen Curry has had this year has never been replicated by CP3. And Curry has been the better defender THIS year.

CP3 was/is one of the most well rounded point guards ever. But he isnt/wasn't the transcendent player that Steph is. CP3 will be a hall of famer. Just like Steph. The difference is Steph is going to retire as an icon. Someone who changed the game and the way guards approach it.

valade16
06-01-2015, 02:49 PM
He does deserve praise for leading them to such a record. Who else did they have that was creating their own shot and getting buckets? I mean they had Chandler but he's a defense guy he's never been on a team for scoring. West was a good mid range player and had a great year. Outside of him though there wasn't really anyone. I don't even know who their third best scorer was? Butler? I mean he could shoot but.. really? CP3 was everything on that team. His stats were inflated a la Minnesota Love. Outside of West nobody else was putting up numbers and even then I'm willing to bet a ton of West's shots were assisted on (by Paul).

I'm not denying he's a great player. I'm not denying throughout his career his defense has been better than Steph.

I am saying that the numbers, along with the success that Stephen Curry has had this year has never been replicated by CP3. And Curry has been the better defender THIS year.

CP3 was/is one of the most well rounded point guards ever. But he isnt/wasn't the transcendent player that Steph is. CP3 will be a hall of famer. Just like Steph. The difference is Steph is going to retire as an icon. Someone who changed the game and the way guards approach it.

The Along with is the only argument to stand on for this season, because numerically CP3 has Curry's best season beat. Whether you think that was the result of stat padding on a bad team is irrelevant, the stats were indisputably better.

As for the success, a lot of that goes to Steph, but a lot of that is because he simply had a monstrously better team around him. That is undeniable.

Steph is certainly on the path to being an icon, but we are somewhat putting the cart before the horse. He needs to sustain this level of play to be listed amongst the greats.

It's not inconceivable that he could go down as better than CP3, he certainly could. He could go down as the best PG ever (though #3 seems like his ceiling unless he does this good for a long time and accumulates plenty of championships).

Goose17
06-01-2015, 03:04 PM
The Along with is the only argument to stand on for this season, because numerically CP3 has Curry's best season beat. Whether you think that was the result of stat padding on a bad team is irrelevant, the stats were indisputably better.

As for the success, a lot of that goes to Steph, but a lot of that is because he simply had a monstrously better team around him. That is undeniable.

Steph is certainly on the path to being an icon, but we are somewhat putting the cart before the horse. He needs to sustain this level of play to be listed amongst the greats.

It's not inconceivable that he could go down as better than CP3, he certainly could. He could go down as the best PG ever (though #3 seems like his ceiling unless he does this good for a long time and accumulates plenty of championships).

Hmm... not really. If it was inflated then it removes his entire argument.

Putting these numbers up on a great team is far more difficult.

valade16
06-01-2015, 03:18 PM
Hmm... not really. If it was inflated then it removes his entire argument.

Putting these numbers up on a great team is far more difficult.

Actually it's easier to put up efficient numbers on a great team, it's theoretically tougher to post higher volume. It's tougher to post a .296 WS/48 on a team that won 49 games than it is on a team that won 67 games because there's more wins to go around.

Also, the inflation of his stats is your opinion. Some might disagree and you can't determine the level of inflation so you're banking on an inexact analysis.

Like I said, all we can say for sure about CP3's 2008-2009 season is that statistically it was better than this season by Steph Curry.

Goose17
06-01-2015, 03:33 PM
Actually it's easier to put up efficient numbers on a great team, it's theoretically tougher to post higher volume. It's tougher to post a .296 WS/48 on a team that won 49 games than it is on a team that won 67 games because there's more wins to go around.

Also, the inflation of his stats is your opinion. Some might disagree and you can't determine the level of inflation so you're banking on an inexact analysis.

Like I said, all we can say for sure about CP3's 2008-2009 season is that statistically it was better than this season by Steph Curry.

No. It's easier to put up big numbers on a bad team. On a great team you're having to accept less touches, on a crappy team you probably start and finish every single possesion.

Bosh in Toronto and Love in Minnesota are the recent examples.

lol, please
06-01-2015, 03:35 PM
Hmm... not really. If it was inflated then it removes his entire argument.

Putting these numbers up on a great team is far more difficult.

I agree. Valade is acting like context matters not, and indeed it does, very much so. You're better than this valade16.

flea
06-01-2015, 04:24 PM
Lebronophiles have already surpassed Kobephiles in utter absurdity around here, I think I might have to retire from the NBA forum if we're going to have Curryphiles competing with them both. Curry is not athletic, does not have good size or length, and is one of the weakest players in the league. That's as much as a testament to how good he is offensively as it is a criticism - but nevertheless, he will never have a single season as good as CP3 just had defensively. If you think otherwise you really need to reevaluate how you assess defense because you're way off.

lol, please
06-01-2015, 04:31 PM
Lebronophiles have already surpassed Kobephiles in utter absurdity around here, I think I might have to retire from the NBA forum if we're going to have Curryphiles competing with them both. Curry is not athletic, does not have good size or length, and is one of the weakest players in the league. That's as much as a testament to how good he is offensively as it is a criticism - but nevertheless, he will never have a single season as good as CP3 just had defensively. If you think otherwise you really need to reevaluate how you assess defense because you're way off.

Curry is unathletic and weak? Please explain. :confused:

valade16
06-01-2015, 04:34 PM
No. It's easier to put up big numbers on a bad team. On a great team you're having to accept less touches, on a crappy team you probably start and finish every single possesion.

Bosh in Toronto and Love in Minnesota are the recent examples.


I agree. Valade is acting like context matters not, and indeed it does, very much so. You're better than this valade16.

I'm not saying context doesn't matter, I'm saying your interpretation of the context is incorrect. You want to diminish CP3's statistical accomplishments because he was on a "bad team", but if he was on a bad team we need to give an extreme amount of credit to CP3 for getting a bad team to 49 wins in the Western Conference.

If you're going to go the "his NO teams sucked" route I'd argue CP3 leading them to 49 wins is every bit as (if not more) impressive than Steph Curry taking the most talented supporting cast this season to the Finals.

Conversely, if you're going to say he had a good enough team of them to achieve what they did then CP3 wasn't putting up inflated stats on a bad team, he put up great stats on a good team, thus no inflation.

Essentially, you're either damned if you do or damned if you don't.

So my question is, which is it? Was it a bad team and thus credit should go to CP3 for leading them to 49 wins or were they not a bad team because they won 49 games?

Chronz
06-01-2015, 04:39 PM
Hmm... not really. If it was inflated then it removes his entire argument.

Putting these numbers up on a great team is far more difficult.

prove inflation then adjust accordingly to give us an accurate read

flea
06-01-2015, 04:41 PM
Curry is unathletic and weak? Please explain. :confused:

What do you mean explain? Have you ever seen him play? He's like 175 pounds soaking wet, has the wingspan that would only make JJ Reddick jealous, and is anything but a speedster and leaper. From his scouting report: (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Stephen-Curry-1170/)


He lacks great height, length or strength, and possesses below average lateral quickness, making him a potential defensive liability when being matched up with some of the more explosive guards the NBA is known for.

In terms of physical makeup, Curry is undersized for an NBA shooting guard at 6’3, and he is a bit on the thin side, clearly still growing into his body. Athletically, he has decent quickness, but isn’t a very explosive player, and isn’t the kind of guy that is going to blow you away with his first step, though he makes up for that in many ways.

I don't know why fans feel like they have to outright lie about their favorite players, like when people say Lebron guards 1-5 at an elite level or is an above average shooter. They're good enough on their own without having to make up stuff that are clear and on-face falsehoods.

Chronz
06-01-2015, 04:48 PM
Blake has been superior to Chris for at least two seasons now.
poppycock

Goose17
06-01-2015, 05:01 PM
I'm not saying context doesn't matter, I'm saying your interpretation of the context is incorrect. You want to diminish CP3's statistical accomplishments because he was on a "bad team", but if he was on a bad team we need to give an extreme amount of credit to CP3 for getting a bad team to 49 wins in the Western Conference.

If you're going to go the "his NO teams sucked" route I'd argue CP3 leading them to 49 wins is every bit as (if not more) impressive than Steph Curry taking the most talented supporting cast this season to the Finals.

Conversely, if you're going to say he had a good enough team of them to achieve what they did then CP3 wasn't putting up inflated stats on a bad team, he put up great stats on a good team, thus no inflation.

Essentially, you're either damned if you do or damned if you don't.

So my question is, which is it? Was it a bad team and thus credit should go to CP3 for leading them to 49 wins or were they not a bad team because they won 49 games?

I already answered that. Not going to discuss stuff with you when you aren't even taking the time to read my posts.

Goose17
06-01-2015, 05:06 PM
Lebronophiles have already surpassed Kobephiles in utter absurdity around here, I think I might have to retire from the NBA forum if we're going to have Curryphiles competing with them both. Curry is not athletic, does not have good size or length, and is one of the weakest players in the league. That's as much as a testament to how good he is offensively as it is a criticism - but nevertheless, he will never have a single season as good as CP3 just had defensively. If you think otherwise you really need to reevaluate how you assess defense because you're way off.

CP3 had a horrible year defensively. Are you ignoring all the FACTS I provided? How about actually evaluating each player this year defensively and providing some evidence for your counter argument? This isn't a case of who can shout the loudest wins. And if it was I would still win anyway ;)

Also Steph has put on a lot of muscle compared to what he had when that draft report was written, he's 195lbs now and added about 10lbs of muscle if not more since that scout report. And he is very fast. Athleticism isn't always about jumping high and being strong. Steph is incredibly agile and quick footed. Bucket loads of stamina. Hes a great athlete.

Goose17
06-01-2015, 05:07 PM
That scouting report even lists him as a shooting guard lmao.

Using outdated reports might be the worst way possible of evaluating a player.

flea
06-01-2015, 06:27 PM
CP3 had a horrible year? Wtf are you even talking about? Didn't some fancy new ISO stat come out that had him leading the league? Can't put a ton of stock in any one defensive stat. DWS is entirely useless for perimeter defenders - I'll bet most people who throw it around have no idea how it's calculated. BPM and DRPM are fun to look at it but they are heavily influenced by team strength.

CP3 isn't a Tony Allen but he has the strength and fundamentals to guard many 2s, and his footspeed/lateral quickness is about as good as it comes in the league. Scouting reports on athleticism, length, and size don't change - that is the physical profile you have for life. Curry has way better strength than in college (when he was like 160 pounds or lighter) but he's still way below average for an NBA guard. If he's 195 pounds then I'm 220 and built like Tyson.

Finally, athleticism is entirely about your size/strength and speed. If you think Curry is a "great athlete" because of endurance (must have been a really rough 32 MPG) then what is Westbrook? Superman mixed with Hulk Hogan and pure titanium?

Really don't know why I bother - amos1er was more sensical than this.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-01-2015, 06:45 PM
Lebronophiles have already surpassed Kobephiles in utter absurdity around here, I think I might have to retire from the NBA forum if we're going to have Curryphiles competing with them both. Curry is not athletic, does not have good size or length, and is one of the weakest players in the league. That's as much as a testament to how good he is offensively as it is a criticism - but nevertheless, he will never have a single season as good as CP3 just had defensively. If you think otherwise you really need to reevaluate how you assess defense because you're way off.

Curry is unathletic and weak? Please explain. :confused:

I think he means by NBA standards. He's doesn't dunk or do anything crazy on the floor. He's incredibly fundamentally sound.

kubernetes
06-01-2015, 08:28 PM
What do you mean explain? Have you ever seen him play? He's like 175 pounds soaking wet, has the wingspan that would only make JJ Reddick jealous,.


Wait, so these physical aspects are knocks against Curry but not against Paul? What? I know TV can be deceptive, but does CP3 have a 7' wingspan or something?

andy2518
06-01-2015, 08:34 PM
Lebronophiles have already surpassed Kobephiles in utter absurdity around here, I think I might have to retire from the NBA forum if we're going to have Curryphiles competing with them both. Curry is not athletic, does not have good size or length, and is one of the weakest players in the league. That's as much as a testament to how good he is offensively as it is a criticism - but nevertheless, he will never have a single season as good as CP3 just had defensively. If you think otherwise you really need to reevaluate how you assess defense because you're way off.

Haven't seen too many "Curryphiles" around here, at least in comparison to the usual Kobe and Lebron philes or whatever you call them. The Lebronphiles seem to be the dominant force around here and all over the internet, but that is to be expected as most people are prisoners of the moment and Lebron, though clearly starting his decline, is still the dominant force in the NBA in terms of superstar status with Kobe out and Durant injured. I'm sure it will die down in a few years and there will be a new group of Davisophiles and Wigginsophiles to take all of their places.

andy2518
06-01-2015, 08:45 PM
Wait, so these physical aspects are knocks against Curry but not against Paul? What? I know TV can be deceptive, but does CP3 have a 7' wingspan or something?

I know right. So many people knocking Curry's lack of physical prowess right now that never had a word to say when people were on Paul's jock the past 7 years or so. Guess that's what happens when you're that good.

Scoots
06-01-2015, 10:04 PM
Jerry Rice's scouting report said he was too slow and not a great athlete. Turned out he was the best football player ever. But go ahead and rely on college draft scouting reports.

nastynice
06-01-2015, 11:01 PM
I think he means by NBA standards. He's doesn't dunk or do anything crazy on the floor. He's incredibly fundamentally sound.

I agree that Curry isn't athletically gifted, but I think his handles and breaking ankles is enough in of itself to take him out of the "unathletic" department.

SportsFanatic10
06-02-2015, 01:16 AM
Haven't seen too many "Curryphiles" around here, at least in comparison to the usual Kobe and Lebron philes or whatever you call them. The Lebronphiles seem to be the dominant force around here and all over the internet, but that is to be expected as most people are prisoners of the moment and Lebron, though clearly starting his decline, is still the dominant force in the NBA in terms of superstar status with Kobe out and Durant injured. I'm sure it will die down in a few years and there will be a new group of Davisophiles and Wigginsophiles to take all of their places.

kobe isn't part of this conversation at this point of time whether in or out lol...

valade16
06-02-2015, 09:29 AM
I already answered that. Not going to discuss stuff with you when you aren't even taking the time to read my posts.

I know you answered it, I wanted you to reiterate your point so that you can see the fallacy of your argument:

He does deserve praise for leading them to such a record. Who else did they have that was creating their own shot and getting buckets?

So he deserves praise for leading a bad team (your words mind you) to 49 wins in the Western Conference.

In that case I can say with 100% certainty that CP3's year was superior to Curry's year this year. What he did was not only more impressive, he did it on greater efficiency (whether or not his stats were inflated).

As I said, your argument is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

2008-2009 CP3 season > 2014-15 Steph season

Goose17
06-02-2015, 10:16 AM
He deserves praise yes. But he wasn't as successful and he was on a bad team so his numbers were inflated.

Curry right now, on that team. Would lead the league in scoring. He would break every shooting record in existence.

CP3's stats being inflated takes him out of the equation entirely. You can't just look at numbers and draw a conclusion. Context is necessary.

valade16
06-02-2015, 10:43 AM
He deserves praise yes. But he wasn't as successful and he was on a bad team so his numbers were inflated.

Curry right now, on that team. Would lead the league in scoring. He would break every shooting record in existence.

CP3's stats being inflated takes him out of the equation entirely. You can't just look at numbers and draw a conclusion. Context is necessary.

Absolutely not because his stats being inflated is a subjective argument made only by you. Others may not agree and furthermore Chronz asked you to give your thoughts on what you think his stats would have been that season adjusted for the inflation.

Your entire argument has been subjective in nature. You made a claim "Curry's season was better statistically than any season CP3 ever had" and were called out on it.

You can say the stats were inflated for being on a bad team (though you still haven't provided much of an argument that they were bad seeing as how they won 49 games in the West) but you simply cannot say that Curry had a better statistical year than CP3.

KarlKevinMalone
06-02-2015, 10:47 AM
There's something to be said for both seasons. Being the unquestioned best player on a 67 win team in the Finals is a lofty accomplishment in itself but Paul's 08-09 stats are ridiculous. 22-11-5.5 on 50% shooting and a 30 PER. That's Magic-esque.

Chronz
06-02-2015, 02:00 PM
Absolutely not because his stats being inflated is a subjective argument made only by you. Others may not agree and furthermore Chronz asked you to give your thoughts on what you think his stats would have been that season adjusted for the inflation.

Your entire argument has been subjective in nature. You made a claim "Curry's season was better statistically than any season CP3 ever had" and were called out on it.

You can say the stats were inflated for being on a bad team (though you still haven't provided much of an argument that they were bad seeing as how they won 49 games in the West) but you simply cannot say that Curry had a better statistical year than CP3.
Bingo, the argument works both ways, curry being on an elite defensive team technically inflates his efficiency scores given that he's rarely tasked with carrying a big load on that end. Not to mention he gets his minutes optimized by rarely having to play in the 4th. I doubt much changes even if he had a point about inflation. You can still have superior stats even with inflation. I know what i would argue for curry but i want to see it from him. It's a discussion worth having and his attitude against It is OBVIOUSLY homerish. I'm used to dubs fans ignoring my posts, if it's not tre, its usually not enlightening

Chronz
06-02-2015, 02:11 PM
I know right. So many people knocking Curry's lack of physical prowess right now that never had a word to say when people were on Paul's jock the past 7 years or so. Guess that's what happens when you're that good.
I don't get your point. Cp3 lost quite abit of his athleticism after his injury

lol, please
06-04-2015, 03:37 PM
He deserves praise yes. But he wasn't as successful and he was on a bad team so his numbers were inflated.

Curry right now, on that team. Would lead the league in scoring. He would break every shooting record in existence.

CP3's stats being inflated takes him out of the equation entirely. You can't just look at numbers and draw a conclusion. Context is necessary.
:clap:

valade16
06-04-2015, 03:43 PM
:clap:

The only context he injected into the debate is "I think Curry > CP3".

He says CP3's stats were inflated but doesn't say by how much or why. He says that NO was bad but doesn't give a reason for why they're bad. He says CP3 deserves credit for taking that bad team to 49 wins in the West and then doesn't give him credit.

In short, he says a lot and shows very little.

Goose17
06-04-2015, 03:53 PM
The only context he injected into the debate is "I think Curry > CP3".

He says CP3's stats were inflated but doesn't say by how much or why. He says that NO was bad but doesn't give a reason for why they're bad. He says CP3 deserves credit for taking that bad team to 49 wins in the West and then doesn't give him credit.

In short, he says a lot and shows very little.

I covered literally all of that aside from the inflation stuff which seems self explanatory to me. Everyone is aware of that. Love, Bosh, Melo. Come on... its clear as day.

valade16
06-04-2015, 04:02 PM
I covered literally all of that aside from the inflation stuff which seems self explanatory to me. Everyone is aware of that. Love, Bosh, Melo. Come on... its clear as day.

You're saying CP3's numbers were inflated because he was on a bad team yet can't provide reasoning on why it was a bad team other than it was crap besides CP3. Doesn't that actually enhance CP3's case that he can play so efficiently and lead a team of scrubs to a winning record?

Can you name 1 other player who led his team to the playoffs in the West the last 10 years whose stats were inflated by playing on a bad team?

Saddletramp
06-04-2015, 04:07 PM
Valade, you do know lol, please just bumped this thread to keep it on the main page, right? He's a little trickster.

valade16
06-04-2015, 04:11 PM
Valade, you do know lol, please just bumped this thread to keep it on the main page, right? He's a little trickster.

LOL, I did not, in that case I'll drop it.