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View Full Version : Is Lebron better off losing against the Hawks than losing another NBA finals?



lakerboy
05-27-2015, 11:39 PM
I had an argument with a friend the other day. While it's impressive Lebron's been in the NBA finals for 5 straight years, if he'd lost he would be 2/6. Does this ruin his legacy?

Yanks All Day
05-27-2015, 11:43 PM
If he lost in the NBA Finals, which I don't think he will this year, it would still be better than losing in the ECF.

9 players in history have been to 5 straight Finals. 8 were from the Celtics dynasties. That streak just doesn't happen. Even if you assume he doesn't win, 6 Eastern Conference championships are better than 5.

Jordan went to 6 Finals. Kobe went to 7. This is LeBron's 6th. Rarified air. You'd rather win more series and playoff games than you lose.

JordansBulls
05-27-2015, 11:44 PM
As long as it is not with HCA

SportsFanatic10
05-27-2015, 11:47 PM
This line of thinking makes no sense to me. Losing to the Hawks and not making the finals would be worse then losing in the finals period. No argument makes sense to support an earlier playoff exit being better than a later one lol.

flea
05-27-2015, 11:48 PM
He's better off losing the rest of the games in his career so he doesn't lose any more important games.

SportsFanatic10
05-27-2015, 11:51 PM
I look at it like sorta like for an Olympic athlete with the Gold and Silver medals. You can't get Gold every time but Silver is always a great accomplishment in itself. Of course it's better to lead your team to a 2nd place finish out of 30 teams then it is to a top 4 place by just making the conference finals.

If he loses some people will be too focused on the 2/6 when really that makes 8 top 2 finishes which is hard to do no matter what.

Bron > Kobe
05-28-2015, 12:04 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 12:08 AM
Its always worse to lose early than not to make it all. Losing to the Hawks would've been really bad.

That being said, he's in the Finals now there's no consolation prize. If he catches a L of course I'm holding it against him.

Do you think Lebron is going into the series saying "well at least I made it?" Hell no its all about winning, no excuses.

Nikeman
05-28-2015, 12:09 AM
If this is people's though process these days, why even make the playoffs?

Raps08-09 Champ
05-28-2015, 12:11 AM
Only an idiot would actually think losing earlier is better.

He's achieving more by making the finals than by only making the ECF. Anyone who would actually ridicule Lebron with that logic is pretty stupid.

Ariza's Better
05-28-2015, 12:15 AM
Nope

ewing
05-28-2015, 12:18 AM
i'd prefer he died

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 12:26 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

And 2 out of those 7 teams were the Thunder and Spurs, so only had to go through 5 50+ teams from the east all those years. Can't blame him, he has to play the teams in front of him, but Wow the East has been beyond a joke during his reign....

lakerboy
05-28-2015, 12:31 AM
And 2 out of those 7 teams were the Thunder and Spurs, so only had to go through 5 50+ teams from the east all those years. Can't blame him, he has to play the teams in front of him, but Wow the East has been beyond a joke during his reign....


The east has always been a joke even in the 90's. There's only 2 or 3 good teams, MAX. Outside of the Pacers and at one point the Knicks, the Bulls had no problem getting in every single year.

It hasn't changed ever since. There's been only been 3 teams in the East that have been good in the past 15 years: the KG-Pierce-Allen Celtics, the Billups-Rasheed Pistons, and the Lebron James teams.

I mean do you remember when Iverson and the 76ers went to the NBA finals? Man that team stunk. This year, there was no way the Boston Celtics this year should have gone to the playoffs. That was so bad.

The 2007 Cleveland team was embarrassing.

Jayb587
05-28-2015, 12:34 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

this is crazy cant be true. who the hell has kobe been playing in the playoffs lol

bleedprple&gold
05-28-2015, 12:41 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

And 2 out of those 7 teams were the Thunder and Spurs, so only had to go through 5 50+ teams from the east all those years. Can't blame him, he has to play the teams in front of him, but Wow the East has been beyond a joke during his reign....

He lost to the Spurs twice so doesn't that count as 3 teams from the west?

flea
05-28-2015, 12:41 AM
The east has always been a joke even in the 90's.

East was the better conference until the mid-90s, maybe a bit earlier. It was top-heavy during Jordan's 2nd 3peat but not terrible. It bottomed out in the late 90s and has basically been stuck there except for that one or two years when Cleveland, Orlando, and Boston were good (08-09) - and even then it was trash beyond them. I think the early 00s Nets sometimes get slept on as a pretty good team but they were nothing compared to the early 00s Kings, for example.

It's the D league and paycheck league of the NBA - where Gilbert Arenas's firearm status is a bigger story than the actual playoffs.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-28-2015, 12:42 AM
The east has always been a joke even in the 90's. There's only 2 or 3 good teams, MAX. Outside of the Pacers and at one point the Knicks, the Bulls had no problem getting in every single year.

It hasn't changed ever since. There's been only been 3 teams in the East that have been good in the past 15 years: the KG-Pierce-Allen Celtics, the Billups-Rasheed Pistons, and the Lebron James teams.

I mean do you remember when Iverson and the 76ers went to the NBA finals? Man that team stunk. This year, there was no way the Boston Celtics this year should have gone to the playoffs. That was so bad.

The 2007 Cleveland team was embarrassing.

They were. It was amazing that they got to the finals, especially with a very good veteran team like the Pistons in 2007 in the way.

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 12:42 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

And 2 out of those 7 teams were the Thunder and Spurs, so only had to go through 5 50+ teams from the east all those years. Can't blame him, he has to play the teams in front of him, but Wow the East has been beyond a joke during his reign....

He lost to the Spurs twice so doesn't that count as 3 teams from the west?

Its talking about teams he beat not lost to. He only beat 7 50+ teams, two of which were from the West.

flea
05-28-2015, 12:44 AM
They were. It was amazing that they got to the finals, especially with a very good veteran team like the Pistons in 2007 in the way.

Prince was already crap by then, once his athletic prime went he was nothing. Ben Wallace, the Pistons best player in their back to back Finals run, played for Chicago, and Rasheed I think cared more about the post-game spliff than he did anything else.

Jayb587
05-28-2015, 12:46 AM
Prince was already crap by then, once his athletic prime went he was nothing. Ben Wallace, the Pistons best player in their back to back Finals run, played for Chicago, and Rasheed I think cared more about the post-game spliff than he did anything else.

yea bron nots beating those prime pistons that won the finals in fact did they beat LeBron that year? that pistons finals team could go up against any team in history to be honest. So good. Like the hawks except better at every position lol.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-28-2015, 12:46 AM
Prince was already crap by then, once his athletic prime went he was nothing. Ben Wallace, the Pistons best player in their back to back Finals run, played for Chicago, and Rasheed I think cared more about the post-game spliff than he did anything else.

They had the 4th best record that year in the league.

flea
05-28-2015, 12:50 AM
yea bron nots beating those prime pistons that won the finals in fact did they beat LeBron that year? that pistons finals team could go up against any team in history to be honest. So good. Like the hawks except better at every position lol.

They played Duncan better than anyone, including the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. Just wasn't enough. I loved that team.

lakerboy
05-28-2015, 12:53 AM
They played Duncan better than anyone, including the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. Just wasn't enough. I loved that team.

The Pistons played the Lakers a lot better than any of the Duncan teams did. Honestly, The Spurs have always had a tough time playing Kobe. I think it's a match up issue that we usually win against them. Against the Pistons though, we're just outclassed. Those guys knew how to guard Kobe.

Jayb587
05-28-2015, 12:58 AM
The Pistons played the Lakers a lot better than any of the Duncan teams did. Honestly, The Spurs have always had a tough time playing Kobe. I think it's a match up issue that we usually win against them. Against the Pistons though, we're just outclassed. Those guys knew how to guard Kobe.

it didn't help that the washed up glove was getting crapped on by Billups repeatedly either. maybe they should have put kobe on Billups then let the washed up glove chase rip around.

koreancabbage
05-28-2015, 08:32 AM
Prince was already crap by then, once his athletic prime went he was nothing. Ben Wallace, the Pistons best player in their back to back Finals run, played for Chicago, and Rasheed I think cared more about the post-game spliff than he did anything else.

they were still a good team though.

JasonJohnHorn
05-28-2015, 08:42 AM
LBJ wasn't even supposed to be in the finals this year. The Hawks had a better record, a lot of people were picking Chicago to win that series, AND Kevin Love isn't even playing.

The fact that he's in the finals and swept a 60-win team to get there, despite losing the team's leading rebounder and third leading scorer, is proof that he knows how to will a team to victory like Jordan.

If he loses to a healthy Warriors' team who won SIXTY-SEVEN games in the regular reason while his team is missing their two best rebounders (Love and Varejao), then that is to be expected. Nobody in their right mind will hold that against him.


Magic lost in the final a lot to. FOUR TIMES! Nobody cares about how many times you lose in the finals when you come with several championships.

This Cavs team was a first-year experiment with a rookie coach and a host of guys who'd never played together before. It is an amazing accomplishment that they have gotten this far. Everything after this is gravy.

PhillyFaninLA
05-28-2015, 09:10 AM
I had an argument with a friend the other day. While it's impressive Lebron's been in the NBA finals for 5 straight years, if he'd lost he would be 2/6. Does this ruin his legacy?

No making 6 finals is an accomplishment. Look at who he lost to.

John Elway was 2 for 5 or 2 and 3 in the Superbowl. He lost 3 times to Joe Montana and the stacked 49ers. He lost 3 superbowls to better teams.

Lebron Finals:

2007 - he lead a Cavaliers team without much talent to the finals, he lost to an all time great dynasty in the Spurs
2011 - the Heat team just been built developing chemistry, lost to a team that you can say they could have beat
2012 - beat a very good OKC team
2013 - beat the Spurs team that is still at great dynasty
2014 - lost to the Spurs team that is still a great dynasty

he won 2 lost 3 so far, but both times he lost to the Spurs, he lost to a better team. The Mavericks I don't think where the better team. Winning titles takes a team, not an individual. If an individual can win a title in the NBA than the Sixers win in 2001 and the Cavs in 2007. It takes a team.

nycericanguy
05-28-2015, 09:23 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

thats a pretty amazing stat if true

but i find it hard to believe, I mean he beat CHI & ATL this year, those are 2 50 win teams... you're saying he's only beaten 5 other 50 win teams in his 11 years?

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 09:30 AM
I just saw a Stat that said Lebron has only beaten 7, 50 win teams in the playoffs.

In context, Kobe has beaten 24, Jordan 20, Duncan 18.......

Are you being serious right now? The fact that one plays in the EC which has had basically 4 good teams in the last 5 years, and the other plays in the WC never crossed your mind?

I personally think the WC is really overrated, but the records don't lie.

Hawkeye15
05-28-2015, 09:34 AM
It's only better to those who are salivating at bashing him for being 2/6 in the finals, without using context. Of course it's better for him to make the finals and lose than lose in the conference finals. I don't think the Cavs have the talent overall to beat the Warriors, so I predict a Cavs loss.

HoopsDrive
05-28-2015, 10:04 AM
I'm sorry but only morons would believe that losing in the semis is better than losing in the finals.

Bron > Kobe
05-28-2015, 10:31 AM
Are you being serious right now? The fact that one plays in the EC which has had basically 4 good teams in the last 5 years, and the other plays in the WC never crossed your mind?

I personally think the WC is really overrated, but the records don't lie.
ESPN showed it. I have the screen shot if I could post it

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 10:47 AM
Uh, wat?

I don't think you're lying about facts. He's played in a weak conference for most of his career volume wise, it's easy to understand why there is such a difference between he and Kobe, since one has played in a conference that churns out 50+ win teams like they're nothing. (Because they play each other's style of basketball and well frankly, they aren't anything).

NYCkid12
05-28-2015, 10:52 AM
thats a pretty amazing stat if true

but i find it hard to believe, I mean he beat CHI & ATL this year, those are 2 50 win teams... you're saying he's only beaten 5 other 50 win teams in his 11 years?

It's true, although slightly misleading......

He's beat:
07-Pistons (53 Wins)
11-Celtics (56 Wins)
11-Bulls (62 Wins)
13-Spurs (58 Wins)
14-Pacers (56 Wins)
15-Bulls (50 Wins)
15-Hawks (60Wins)

The part that is slightly misleading is that 2012 was a shortened season (played only 66 regular season games that year). So based off winning percentage of teams that season, had it been a full 82 game season, you could of added 3 more 50 win teams:

2012:
Pacers won 42 games - PROJECTED 82 GMS= 52 Wins
Celtics won 39 games - PROJECTED 82 GMS= 50 Wins
Thunder won 47 games - PROJECTED 82 GMS= 58 Wins

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 11:21 AM
How is losing in the semis even a option tho? Who came up with this notion its better to take a L in the semis than the Finals anyway?

Doesn't even make sense. I've never heard a discussion of what Bird or Magic accomplished or how they failed in the semis. We fast forward to how they performed in the Finals because when you're the "best player in the game" its expected you're going to be there.

Bron > Kobe
05-28-2015, 11:27 AM
Are you being serious right now? The fact that one plays in the EC which has had basically 4 good teams in the last 5 years, and the other plays in the WC never crossed your mind?

I personally think the WC is really overrated, but the records don't lie.
ESPN showed it. I have the screen shot if I could post it

Are you being serious right now? The fact that one plays in the EC which has had basically 4 good teams in the last 5 years, and the other plays in the WC never crossed your mind?

I personally think the WC is really overrated, but the records don't lie.
ESPN showed it. I have the screen shot if I could post it

MonroeFAN
05-28-2015, 11:30 AM
^ http://penguinssauce.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/fixins.gif

BoSox47
05-28-2015, 11:59 AM
Depends on how you view it. I view it as him having 6 top 2 finishes in the league, its hard to get to the finals so it shouldnt be a blemish on his resume it should be an accomplishment.

I guess its the same conversation that goes with Tom Brady, do you discredit him for losing those two superbowls or do you credit him for getting there.

In both situations i view it as accolades, but its obviously better to win it.

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 12:36 PM
This is the equivalent of saying someone should lose the qualification round in the World Cup so they can avoid losing in the World Cup match...

bucketss
05-28-2015, 12:38 PM
i would take it serious if lebron haters atleast didn't count the 2007 finals when lebron was 23 and playing with scrubs against the spurs;

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 12:53 PM
I had an argument with a friend the other day. While it's impressive Lebron's been in the NBA finals for 5 straight years, if he'd lost he would be 2/6. Does this ruin his legacy?

Everyone in here is going to give the canned answer that it is better to go further in the playoffs but when you are having discussions with superficial fans the more Finals loses the easier it becomes for those people to pile on about his (factually inaccurate) lack of a "clutch gene". A loss in the Finals makes it infinitely easier for those people to bash on him than if he had lost to the Bulls. The spotlight will be on every jump shot he takes in the 4th quarter... "Why isn't he just driving to the basket???" on every pass to a teammate that misses a wide open shot "If you are LeBron you need to just take over, forget passing to Shumpert!" and on every turnover.

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 01:23 PM
Look, this is a 100% fact and that is, only the haters are going to use this as an argument. It makes completely zero sense and isn't valid by any measure. I don't know who can honestly support this argument but no one in their right mind would rather lose in the 1st round than in the Finals. Could you imagine if his team lost to the Celtics? You're telling me that would be better than to lose in the Finals after what James has done with this Cavs team? Gimme a break. Close this thread as it is not even a valid discussion.

giventofly
05-28-2015, 01:27 PM
Ugh... genius thoughts just oozing from the NBA forum.

KnicksorBust
05-28-2015, 06:00 PM
Ugh... genius thoughts just oozing from the NBA forum.

I'd love to hear why this is such a terrible thread.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:17 PM
Of course it ruins his legacy. He is a week away from being exposed again. Lebron is the most over rated athlete of all time.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:19 PM
Of course it ruins his legacy. He is a week away from being exposed again. Lebron is the most over rated athlete of all time.

Kobe*

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:22 PM
Of course it ruins his legacy. He is a week away from being exposed again. Lebron is the most over rated athlete of all time.

Kobe*

Negative . Kobe is proven is every way possible. Lebron is an overrated stat stuffer who has an embarrassing finals record. He constantly gets exposed when he's not facing pathetic east teams.im going to love you're guy's excuses in a week

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:25 PM
Negative . Kobe is proven is every way possible. Lebron is an overrated stat stuffer who has an embarrassing finals record. He constantly gets exposed when he's not facing pathetic east teams.im going to love you're guy's excuses in a week

Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

bucketss
05-28-2015, 06:28 PM
Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

agreed. as jared dudley said "Most Guys Don't Want to Play With Kobe'".

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:29 PM
Negative . Kobe is proven is every way possible. Lebron is an overrated stat stuffer who has an embarrassing finals record. He constantly gets exposed when he's not facing pathetic east teams.im going to love you're guy's excuses in a week

Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

He's not a better Scorer or defender.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:29 PM
Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

agreed. as jared dudley said "no one wants to play with kobe"

Who's Jared Dudley? Give me a break

bucketss
05-28-2015, 06:30 PM
He's not a better Scorer or defender.

actually he is. but kobe is a better hard shot maker, which i guess might give the allusion of being a better scorer. since its prettier to watch.

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 06:32 PM
Negative . Kobe is proven is every way possible. Lebron is an overrated stat stuffer who has an embarrassing finals record. He constantly gets exposed when he's not facing pathetic east teams.im going to love you're guy's excuses in a week

Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

Seriously man, all jokes aside, Lebron is not a better scorer than Kobe. Prime 81 point dropping outscore the Mavs singlehandly in three quarters Kobe average 40 for a month Kobe four 50+ games in a row Kobe could and DID shoot and score from literally anywhere on the court with double teams hanging on him. Prime Lebron you can back off and dare to shoot.

I dig that you're a Lebron fan but at least be realistic, unless you speak the language of "if he wanted to." Even (most) Kobe haters acknowledge he's possibly the best pure scorer ever.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:36 PM
He's not a better Scorer or defender.

LeBron was a way better scorer lmao. His efficiency is/was so superior to Kobe's, if he wanted to he could average easily 35+ ppg on Kobe's efficiency. Kobe is literally the most overrated defender in the history of sports, with a career drtg of 105 and putting up bad year after bad year in the category during his prime (109, 105, 111, yuck). He was never a good defender, and should have never made an all-NBA defensive team.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:37 PM
He's not a better Scorer or defender.

actually he is. but kobe is a better hard shot maker, which i guess might give the allusion of being a better scorer. since its prettier to watch.

I find it hilarious that you talk about Kobe like you watched his career. You're 21 buckets you were 2 when Kobe started playing in the NBA. :laugh2:

ManRam
05-28-2015, 06:39 PM
I think so. As twisted as it is. It has become a narrative with him. I mean, people still bring up him losing in 2007 like it's an indictment on him.

I've never seen someone reference a player's Conference Finals record...or even career playoff series record. All you ever see is Finals record.

Edit: like buckets said

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:39 PM
He's not a better Scorer or defender.

LeBron was a way better scorer lmao. His efficiency is/was so superior to Kobe's, if he wanted to he could average easily 35+ ppg on Kobe's efficiency. Kobe is literally the most overrated defender in the history of sports, with a career drtg of 105 and putting up bad year after bad year in the category during his prime (109, 105, 111, yuck). He was never a good defender, and should have never made an all-NBA defensive team.

Lol wow, do you really believe what you type?

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:39 PM
Seriously man, all jokes aside, Lebron is not a better scorer than Kobe. Prime 81 point dropping outscore the Mavs singlehandly in three quarters Kobe average 40 for a month Kobe four 50+ games in a row Kobe could and DID shoot and score from literally anywhere on the court with double teams hanging on him. Prime Lebron you can back off and dare to shoot.

I dig that you're a Lebron fan but at least be realistic, unless you speak the language of "if he wanted to." Even (most) Kobe haters acknowledge he's possibly the best pure scorer ever.

LeBron averaged 27 ppg in 38 minutes on 57/38 shooting. I firmly believe that he could have averaged nearly 40 ppg on relatively reasonable efficiency that year if he wanted.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:42 PM
Lol wow, do you really believe what you type?

I may have been hyperbolizing a bit, but just I hope you know this is what the entire website thinks about you^

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 06:43 PM
Who's Jared Dudley? Give me a break

A professional basketball player.

bucketss
05-28-2015, 06:44 PM
I find it hilarious that you talk about Kobe like you watched his career. You're 21 buckets you were 2 when Kobe started playing in the NBA. :laugh2:

is kobe really that old a 21 yr old can't tall about him, you act like he played in the 80's, but keep guessing my age.

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 06:46 PM
Seriously man, all jokes aside, Lebron is not a better scorer than Kobe. Prime 81 point dropping outscore the Mavs singlehandly in three quarters Kobe average 40 for a month Kobe four 50+ games in a row Kobe could and DID shoot and score from literally anywhere on the court with double teams hanging on him. Prime Lebron you can back off and dare to shoot.

I dig that you're a Lebron fan but at least be realistic, unless you speak the language of "if he wanted to." Even (most) Kobe haters acknowledge he's possibly the best pure scorer ever.

LeBron averaged 27 ppg in 38 minutes on 57/38 shooting. I firmly believe that he could have averaged nearly 40 ppg on relatively reasonable efficiency that year if he wanted.

The last the words of your sentence is all you had to say.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:53 PM
Seriously man, all jokes aside, Lebron is not a better scorer than Kobe. Prime 81 point dropping outscore the Mavs singlehandly in three quarters Kobe average 40 for a month Kobe four 50+ games in a row Kobe could and DID shoot and score from literally anywhere on the court with double teams hanging on him. Prime Lebron you can back off and dare to shoot.

I dig that you're a Lebron fan but at least be realistic, unless you speak the language of "if he wanted to." Even (most) Kobe haters acknowledge he's possibly the best pure scorer ever.

LeBron averaged 27 ppg in 38 minutes on 57/38 shooting. I firmly believe that he could have averaged nearly 40 ppg on relatively reasonable efficiency that year if he wanted.

Of course you do

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-28-2015, 06:58 PM
I find it hilarious that you talk about Kobe like you watched his career. You're 21 buckets you were 2 when Kobe started playing in the NBA. :laugh2:

is kobe really that old a 21 yr old can't tall about him, you act like he played in the 80's, but keep guessing my age.

I'm not guessing buckets, you told me you were 20 a year ago.

PhillyFaninLA
05-28-2015, 07:03 PM
Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

Imagine Kobe's ring total if he didn't get Shaq traded.

That could have been one of the great runs ever.

Why respond to Illusionist, you know what he does

Tony_Starks
05-28-2015, 07:41 PM
So Kobe fans trump card is ringz and Lebrons fans go to is "if he wanted to."


The only difference is Kobe actually has 5 rings in real life and apparently Lebron never "wanted to" do any of the things his fans dream up like average 40 or a triple double or end world hunger or whatever else they say.....

numba1CHANGsta
05-28-2015, 08:08 PM
LeBron would have only 1 ring right now if it weren't for Ray Allen. I'd rather be 2-3 in the Finals than 2-4, don't ya think?

kingkenny01
05-28-2015, 08:16 PM
This is what is exactly what's wrong with the way people evaulate basketball players. If two players both played 10 years one goes to the finals ten times and wins five. The other won five time but only went five times. Your telling me the second is better. No!!! Any who says going to the finals is worse than not going they are stupid.

PhillyFaninLA
05-28-2015, 08:16 PM
LeBron would have only 1 ring right now if it weren't for Ray Allen. I'd rather be 2-3 in the Finals than 2-4, don't ya think?

And Jordan might have 0 without Pippen.....Kobe would have 0 without Shaq and without Pau.....you take a key player off any champion and they don't win

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 08:21 PM
Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.


Better Defender? No, can guard more positions? Yes. Kobe has the record for most first team all defensive teams and most all defensive teams in general. Defense is one of the main reasons, some people still rank Kobe ahead of Lebron.
Better teammate? Yes, but for what like 3 or 4 years before he takes his talents elsewhere. Heck if he loses this year, he may take his talents elsewhere this summer or next.

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 08:23 PM
This is what is exactly what's wrong with the way people evaulate basketball players. If two players both played 10 years one goes to the finals ten times and wins five. The other won five time but only went five times. Your telling me the second is better. No!!! Any who says going to the finals is worse than not going they are stupid.

Jim Kelley went to 6 superbowls and never won 1 and Elway went to 3 and won 2 rings, which one is better? Who is regarded as the better player? Nice try man

kingkenny01
05-28-2015, 08:30 PM
I didn't say it's equal of they have different amount of ring like in my example both had 5

kingkenny01
05-28-2015, 08:33 PM
I didn't say it's equal if they have a different amount of rings like in my example both have five. But thanks for showing an irrevelant example. Nice try buddy

Ty Fast
05-28-2015, 08:34 PM
I think it would be better for brons leagacy to not lose in the final but I think it would help the young players on the cavs to make the finals, even if they lose.

ThaDubs
05-28-2015, 08:34 PM
Better Defender? No, can guard more positions? Yes. Kobe has the record for most first team all defensive teams and most all defensive teams in general. Defense is one of the main reasons, some people still rank Kobe ahead of Lebron.
Better teammate? Yes, but for what like 3 or 4 years before he takes his talents elsewhere. Heck if he loses this year, he may take his talents elsewhere this summer or next.

Lmfao, Kobe was never even 2nd-team level on that end of the court. He had years of 109 and 111 drtgs and still made the 1st team. LeBron is WORLDS better on any year.

bucketss
05-28-2015, 08:35 PM
LeBron would have only 1 ring right now if it weren't for Ray Allen. I'd rather be 2-3 in the Finals than 2-4, don't ya think?

32 11 10, with 16 4th quarter points means nothing. it was all ray allen. ray hit a ten pointer from full court to help the heat come back in the 4th.

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 08:57 PM
Lmfao, Kobe was never even 2nd-team level on that end of the court. He had years of 109 and 111 drtgs and still made the 1st team. LeBron is WORLDS better on any year.

is that your argument? Teammates and schemes and era all effect your d rating, say what you want, all nba teams are voted for just like MVP, if your going to discredit all NBA teams than do the same for MVP'S Kobe was 1 of the best guards on defense over the last 15 years, he would guard LeBron, Melo, CP3 and was the defensive anchor on the Olympic team that LeBron was on. Tim Duncan and Kobe own the most all nba defensive teams, should we disregard Duncan because he had a lower rating as well.

nastynice
05-28-2015, 08:58 PM
I had an argument with a friend the other day. While it's impressive Lebron's been in the NBA finals for 5 straight years, if he'd lost he would be 2/6. Does this ruin his legacy?

The east is a joke. I can't imagine any possible scenario in which losing to an eastern conference team is better than losing in the finals

nastynice
05-28-2015, 08:59 PM
ray hit a ten pointer.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

L8kers4life
05-28-2015, 09:06 PM
Lmfao, Kobe was never even 2nd-team level on that end of the court. He had years of 109 and 111 drtgs and still made the 1st team. LeBron is WORLDS better on any year.

Good post though

Mell413
05-28-2015, 09:11 PM
To me I would say no. It's better to make the finals and lose than not make it at all. However I think people that don't care for LeBron already would use a finals loss against him even if he played really well. That's really the one thing detractors can use. I also don't get why he's penalized for a teammate making a shot when others aren't.

Avenged
05-28-2015, 09:13 PM
Team success in Finals =/= ability as a player. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, and teammate than Kobe ever was.

agreed. as jared dudley said "Most Guys Don't Want to Play With Kobe'".

Oh Jared Dudley the great :worthy:

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 09:16 PM
Winning is usually never a bad thing.
Then again if Cleveland gets wrecked or swept and Lebron doesn't play well it won't look good for him.
He has many times in his career advanced far against not so great competition before playing poorly and losing against better competition.
Having another mark like that on his career won't be a good look.

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 10:29 PM
These Lakers fans acting like Fisher/Horry never made big shots... Horry is known for being the clutchest player btw.. Who is Jared Dudley? A basketball player who doesn't want to play with Kobe.. seems like it's normal for that to occur.

ThaDubs
05-29-2015, 12:33 AM
is that your argument? Teammates and schemes and era all effect your d rating, say what you want, all nba teams are voted for just like MVP, if your going to discredit all NBA teams than do the same for MVP'S Kobe was 1 of the best guards on defense over the last 15 years, he would guard LeBron, Melo, CP3 and was the defensive anchor on the Olympic team that LeBron was on. Tim Duncan and Kobe own the most all nba defensive teams, should we disregard Duncan because he had a lower rating as well.

Tim Duncan has an absolutely absurd career defensive rating of 96. What on Earth are you talking about? If you check basketball reference, Kobe's defensive rating always seemed to hover around what the team's overall defensive rating was (which was never really good), meaning Kobe was pretty average on that end of the floor. Not worthy of 12 All-Defensive team selections

Bruno
05-29-2015, 12:35 AM
in reality no, in a world of taking heads and sound bites and definitive all time records in the NBA finals, yes. which is idiotic, but reality.

i mean look at it like this. IF the 2009 Cavs make it to the finals and lose against Kobe and the Lakers, does LeBron get more praise for making it than he does take crap for losing? never. not in the eyes of the casual fan, ever.

numba1CHANGsta
05-29-2015, 01:26 AM
And Jordan might have 0 without Pippen.....Kobe would have 0 without Shaq and without Pau.....you take a key player off any champion and they don't win

Okay but the thing is LeBron had 3 key players, MJ only had 1, Kobe only had 1, you take 1 out from Lebron's Heat teams they could still win maybe 1 championship because they would still have 2 key players

numba1CHANGsta
05-29-2015, 01:39 AM
Oh Jared Dudley the great :worthy:

Yeah he's so great he has 0 rings :laugh:

nastynice
05-29-2015, 03:05 AM
This is the equivalent of saying someone should lose the qualification round in the World Cup so they can avoid losing in the World Cup match...

lol, thank you for putting it in perspective. Really illustrates how ridiculous it is to think losing in earlier rounds is better than losing in later rounds. Think of it, if cavs lose in the finals, no matter how much heat he gets, he would get way more heat if he were to lose to an eastern conference team. The complaints would be geez, he couldn't even get out of a weak east. And i'd agree. Lucky for everyone, he DID get out of a weak east.

I'm annoyed by "the decision" as much as the next guy, but c'mon, what in the hell are these criticisms even turning into. This is insane.

nastynice
05-29-2015, 03:07 AM
Winning is usually never a bad thing.
Then again if Cleveland gets wrecked or swept and Lebron doesn't play well it won't look good for him.
He has many times in his career advanced far against not so great competition before playing poorly and losing against better competition.
Having another mark like that on his career won't be a good look.

sure, understandable, but however bad that looks, it'd look worse if he'd lost a round or two earlier

andy2518
05-29-2015, 03:29 AM
No because making the finals yet again will only enhance his legacy. Winning is always better than losing. Even if the competition he faced was relatively weak compared to other all time greats, it's still an accomplishment none the less. Even if he loses in the finals again. It just won't move him up to where his fans would like to think he should be, or in some cases where they already believe he is.

PhillyFaninLA
05-29-2015, 03:56 AM
Okay but the thing is LeBron had 3 key players, MJ only had 1, Kobe only had 1, you take 1 out from Lebron's Heat teams they could still win maybe 1 championship because they would still have 2 key players

Jordan and Kobe had stacked well balanced teams with great role players. And no Jordan and Kobe didn't only have one other players.

Yes Lebron had the big 3 and Ray Allen, but look Kobe had Fisher, Odom, and cast of nice complimentary role players, Jordan had a team that was him, Pippen, Kerr, and maybe the best cast of role players in NBA history.


1 guy or even 2 don't win a title. You need a balanced team. Rings show a team is built will, has good to great starters with really nice role players on the bench.


edit: For the record I'm not a Lebron lover or a Lebron hater (a little bit of a Kobe hater), I do like watching him play but I'm not a Lebron lover.

I am trying to make a bigger point in this topic and some of the other topics about Lebron, titles, and the finals.



Rings are about a team not an individual and you don't win them without a supporting cast.

Jordan may not win a title during the first three peat without Armstrong, Cartwright, Grant, Perdue, and Paxton.....and if they don't have Rodman and Kerr and others during the second 3 peat there may rings.


Kobe's second run may have no titles without Fisher, Odom, and even Ariza and Vujacic.....during the first run he may not win any without Fisher, Fox, Richmond, Hunter, and Horry


It takes a team and a bench to win a title

basch152
05-29-2015, 04:17 AM
Lol, wow.

I consider LeBron to be a superior player to Kobe at this point, but he is definitely not a better scorer than kobe.

SF8
06-08-2015, 06:37 AM
Its always worse to lose early than not to make it all. Losing to the Hawks would've been really bad.

That being said, he's in the Finals now there's no consolation prize. If he catches a L of course I'm holding it against him.

Do you think Lebron is going into the series saying "well at least I made it?" Hell no its all about winning, no excuses.
What an idiotic post because its basically LeBron and a bunch of high school caliber players on the Cavs team vs a loaded Warriors squad.