PDA

View Full Version : 2002 Lakers Championship Team: If you swap SHAQ with Howard, do they still a 'ship?



lol, please
05-27-2015, 03:52 PM
If we swap Howard and Shaq and the rest of the roster remains the same, how far do they get? Would they be seeded differently? Woud the run be as dominant? Do they even win it all that year? Discuss.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2015, 04:01 PM
yeah, maybe. Bryant's coming into his own at this point and Howard used to kill it on the offensive glass.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2015, 04:03 PM
unless you mean current Howard, then no.

Chronz
05-27-2015, 04:05 PM
u mean 2001 . i doubt it considering the attention shaq drew and how howard could be defended 1v1 by pau/perk/collins etc... much less duncan/drob

kdspurman
05-27-2015, 04:06 PM
highly doubtful imo

MonroeFAN
05-27-2015, 04:07 PM
I think they get taken out in the first or second round tbh.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-27-2015, 04:09 PM
If prime Howard, I think they still win. Kobe just gets Shaq's touches.

JordansBulls
05-27-2015, 04:09 PM
No they don't. Kings would have smoked them.

kdspurman
05-27-2015, 04:11 PM
If prime Howard, I think they still win. Kobe just gets Shaq's touches.

Idk, having to go through Prime Duncan and an older yet effective Robinson, or even that Kings team. I just don't see it.

bucketss
05-27-2015, 04:15 PM
depends, do refs still rig the wcf? if refs are fair i think sacramento takes it. lakers don't even each finals.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-27-2015, 04:28 PM
Idk, having to go through Prime Duncan and an older yet effective Robinson, or even that Kings team. I just don't see it.

I think Kobe would have gone off. They have a greater chance to lose, but I think they still had all the tools to win there.

Kevj77
05-27-2015, 04:56 PM
u mean 2001 . i doubt it considering the attention shaq drew and how howard could be defended 1v1 by pau/perk/collins etc... much less duncan/drobDon't forget the Kings with Divacs/Webber. I think it's one of the best teams ever to not win a championship.

Chronz
05-27-2015, 05:10 PM
I think Kobe would have gone off. They have a greater chance to lose, but I think they still had all the tools to win there.
Even peak Kobe doesn't take away Shaq s touches enough to mitigate the loss much less a younger Kobe. Also, they had alot of ups and downs but in 01, him getting injured and seeing the team play better without him reigned him in. I don't think Dwight could keep the team afloat when even kobe couldn't when shaq was out.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 05:14 PM
no, no way. the Laker bench and rotation players slowly dwindled each season from 2000 through 2004, resulting in the 2003 and 2004 team having zero bench whatsoever. Dwights limitations on offense would have allowed teams to totally smother Kobe and he would have probably shot 3-4% lower. On a team that was designed to be a two headed monster in regards to supporting cast, Dwight doesn't bring enough to the table offensively to get that done. they'd be more like this years Rockets, but with a worse bench.

Saddletramp
05-27-2015, 05:19 PM
You guys do know this is just another lol, please troll thread, right? Prime Shaq versus what people are thinking about Howard today. Stop falling for this hot garbage.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 05:30 PM
You guys do know this is just another lol, please troll thread, right? Prime Shaq versus what people are thinking about Howard today. Stop falling for this hot garbage.

i figured he got into an argument with a young friend who suggested that the Lakers could have done it in 2002 with Dwight instead of Shaq and he came to the forum for support haha.

Saddletramp
05-27-2015, 05:36 PM
i figured he got into an argument with a young friend who suggested that the Lakers could have done it in 2002 with Dwight instead of Shaq and he came to the forum for support haha.

Nah, he's just a passive aggressive troller. Nothing new.


"New thread idea: Take Jordan off those 90's Bulls teams and replaced him with James Harden. Yeah, I can sell that and get people to laugh at Harden. Yeah {rubs hands together}."

Bruno
05-27-2015, 05:39 PM
Nah, he's just a passive aggressive troller. Nothing new.


"New thread idea: Take Jordan off those 90's Bulls teams and replaced him with James Harden. Yeah, I can sell that and get people to laugh at Harden. Yeah {rubs hands together}."

hahahaha. perfect visual.

Chronz
05-27-2015, 05:42 PM
You guys do know this is just another lol, please troll thread, right? Prime Shaq versus what people are thinking about Howard today. Stop falling for this hot garbage.

but weve always known of shaqs impact/importance, especially compared to dwight

Tony_Starks
05-27-2015, 06:13 PM
Yep, but every series probably goes 6 or 7 games.

TheNumber37
05-27-2015, 06:59 PM
Shaq was Dominant!
Howard is an ultimate role player.

It'd be a lot tougher for sure

Chronz
05-27-2015, 07:00 PM
there should be a poll but there should be 3 options. one where kobe fans vote and 2 where the rest vote

Chronz
05-27-2015, 07:03 PM
hahahaha. perfect visual.

id give that scenario more respect. the lakers without shaq werent even a playoff team, whereas the bulls could at least compete for the finals without MJ

Tony_Starks
05-27-2015, 07:09 PM
hahahaha. perfect visual.

id give that scenario more respect. the lakers without shaq werent even a playoff team, whereas the bulls could at least compete for the finals without MJ

You mean the Lakers without Shaq, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Rick Fox, Derrick Fisher, and with newly imported Caron Butler missing half the seasons Lakers?

Yeah, they missed the playoffs......shocker!

Nice try attempting to make it sound like it was the same team just minus Shaq that missed the playoffs to emphasize his importance tho....

Chronz
05-27-2015, 07:15 PM
You mean the Lakers without Shaq, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Rick Fox, Derrick Fisher, and with newly imported Caron Butler missing half the seasons Lakers?
no i dont.


Yeah, they missed the playoffs......shocker!
shocker? lol i remember getting a cool 8th from laker homers who didnt see the OBVIOUS


Nice try attempting to make it sound like it was the same team just minus Shaq that missed the playoffs to emphasize his importance tho....

look up their record+efficiency throughout their tenure together before pushing straws.

Tony_Starks
05-27-2015, 07:36 PM
You mean the Lakers without Shaq, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Rick Fox, Derrick Fisher, and with newly imported Caron Butler missing half the seasons Lakers?
no i dont.


Yeah, they missed the playoffs......shocker!
shocker? lol i remember getting a cool 8th from laker homers who didnt see the OBVIOUS


Nice try attempting to make it sound like it was the same team just minus Shaq that missed the playoffs to emphasize his importance tho....

look up their record+efficiency throughout their tenure together before pushing straws.

You said the Lakers without Shaq wasn't a playoff team. The Laker team directly post Shaq consisted of

Chris Mihm
Odom ( Brian Grant hurt)
George ( Caron hurt, Walton hurt)
Kobe ( who also missed games)
Chucky Atkins, lordknowswho

That's a far cry from the team that just went to the Finals friend.

Oh yeah and they were coached by Frank Hamblem.

Chronz
05-27-2015, 07:53 PM
You said the Lakers without Shaq wasn't a playoff team. The Laker team directly post Shaq consisted of

Chris Mihm
Odom ( Brian Grant hurt)
George ( Caron hurt, Walton hurt)
Kobe ( who also missed games)
Chucky Atkins, lordknowswho

That's a far cry from the team that just went to the Finals friend.

Oh yeah and they were coached by Frank Hamblem.

i got no keyboard so forgive my c&p.

look up their record+efficiency throughout their tenure together before pushing straws.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 08:07 PM
Lakers would have 0 rings without Shaq and Paul.... They had so much talent around Kobe plus those 2 guys it was borderline ridiculous but even with the talent they had and a Kobe in their prime they dont make the finals out west without those 2 guys.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:23 PM
Hell no.. If Kobe hates Dwight now, what makes you think a younger Kobe would have tolerated him? Dwight was a better defender/rebounder but he can't score for jack...

http://i.gyazo.com/52988223f06f81a33a3f67258051ed6a.png

But seriously... how quick they forget. They wouldn't make it out of the first round. I want you guys to look at Shaq's FT % those playoffs... That is incredible for someone who practically caused the Hack-A-Shaq. Shaq steps up when it matters and Dwight doesn't.

JLynn943
05-28-2015, 12:36 AM
No chance they would have gotten past the Kings. They already arguably shouldn't have even with Shaq, so without him I don't think it's even a question.

lakerboy
05-28-2015, 12:50 AM
Maybe in 2001. But man, would have been really tough to beat the Queens that year without the big fella

Jayb587
05-28-2015, 01:04 AM
lol is this a joke. Heck no they don't win the chip. Shaq and Kobe did everything for that team they two of them were just better than everyone else. No way Dwight matches shaqs production and there is no one else on that lakers roster that can pick up the slack either.

Mave1002
05-28-2015, 01:11 AM
No they don't. Kings would have smoked them.

THIS. Peak Howard though, WCF at best

JasonJohnHorn
05-28-2015, 08:00 AM
The Spurs or the Kings would have been in the finals.

People think it's all Shaq's socring and rebounding, but his PASSING was HUGE for the Lakers, as were the double-teams.

You can put one-on-one coverage on Howard, especially a guy like Duncan, and not worry about it. Shaq required two guys, and when you put two guys on him, he could pass that ball out.

Dwight doesn't command the double team, his post moves pale next to Shaq's, so he wouldn't create the same level of offense, and he'd turn the ball over WAY too much to make him an effective passer.

No. They wouldn't even be able to beat the Spurs.

And you know what, I'm not even sure they'd be able to beat the Trailblazers. Shaq was getting about 25/12/4 in that series. With one-on-one coverage from Rasheed (who ALWAYS gave Dwight problems), there is NO WAY that Dwight puts up numbers like that. He might still rebound well, but you take away those 6-8 points, then take away the four assists, and add a couple of turnovers, and the margin of victory in those games goes into the negative. I'm sure Kobe would have taken an extra load and they could have beaten the Blazers, but I'm not sure that Dwight's defense would have helped as much since they had bigs (Sheed and Z-bo) that could work him in the post and step out and hit a jumper.

They would have struggled in round-one. I might be overrating the Spurs that year, but with Duncan posting almost 30/18 that series, they would have had the best player on the court. It's not like Parker was the Parker who won the finals MVP, but they had Steve Smith and Bruce Bowen too, and vets like D-Rob and Charles Smith.

At any rate... no... Shaq's drawing the double team and being able to pass is what made Kobe so effective that year, and Dwight isn't opening that stuff up for Kobe.

FYL_McVeezy
05-28-2015, 11:11 AM
Would have lost to the Kings seeing that the Kings should have beat them anyways with Prime Shaq.....

xxplayerxx23
05-28-2015, 11:24 AM
Lol pleAse

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 01:28 PM
Better question: Would prime Shaq have carried Dwight's Magic in the 2009 NBA Finals vs Lakers? Hell yes. Pau Gasol would shrivel up when he sees Shaq.. And as good as Kobe was that series, Shaq would be hitting him with 40/15 with his hands tied behind his back.

lol, please
05-28-2015, 03:43 PM
Better question: Would prime Shaq have carried Dwight's Magic in the 2009 NBA Finals vs Lakers? Hell yes. Pau Gasol would shrivel up when he sees Shaq.. And as good as Kobe was that series, Shaq would be hitting him with 40/15 with his hands tied behind his back.

I never thought about that scenario, you are probably right.

Bruno
05-28-2015, 09:37 PM
id give that scenario more respect. the lakers without shaq werent even a playoff team, whereas the bulls could at least compete for the finals without MJ

if i understand you correctly, i agree. i don't think Dwight and Kobe could have done it in 2002. i did respect it and give my opinion before that post, I just got a laugh out of what was said thats all. no disrespect intended.

Andrew32
05-28-2015, 10:06 PM
Haha, no.
Sacramento would wipe the floor with them.

Shaq averaged 30 / 14 / 2 / 2-bpg on 56%TS against SAC.
He also averaged 38 / 15 / 2 / 3-bpg on 59%TS over the last 2 games of the series (both close wins).

I would love to see Dwight try to put up those numbers while being double/triple teamed constantly.

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 10:19 PM
Haha, no.
Sacramento would wipe the floor with them.

Shaq averaged 30 / 14 / 2 / 2-bpg on 56%TS against SAC.
He also averaged 38 / 15 / 2 / 3-bpg on 59%TS over the last 2 games of the series (both close wins).

I would love to see Dwight try to put up those numbers while being double/triple teamed constantly.

Don't forget the refs cheating helping the Lakers

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2015, 10:44 PM
Dwight got the magic to the finals with Hedo Turkoglu as his best teammate. I'm pretty sure he do all right with Kobe

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2015, 10:47 PM
Don't forget the refs cheating helping the Lakers

By giving the Kings Way more free throws than the Lakers for the entire series? Even though the Lakers had the dominant Center who had to be beat down to be contained and the best slasher in the game at the time that attacked the rim at will? Please!

SeoulBeatz
05-28-2015, 10:48 PM
chose the third option.

there is no comparison between howard and shaq.

he does not come close to his level of dominance.

LakerShow
05-28-2015, 10:56 PM
Maybe. But the Howard now, nah.

Bruno
05-28-2015, 11:38 PM
By giving the Kings Way more free throws than the Lakers for the entire series? Even though the Lakers had the dominant Center who had to be beat down to be contained and the best slasher in the game at the time that attacked the rim at will? Please!

the league skewed game two in favor of the kings, and game six in favor of the Lakers. they wanted seven, imo. sucks for the Kings that the game that favored them was early on in the series, but at the end of the day they shot about 50% from the foul strike as a team in the close out game at home.

Bruno
05-28-2015, 11:40 PM
Dwight got the magic to the finals with Hedo Turkoglu as his best teammate. I'm pretty sure he do all right with Kobe

i think 2009 peak Dwight with the rest of the 2002 roster minus Shaq gets about two games on Sacramento. they would have beaten the ECC Nets with relative ease though, imo.

Lakers + Giants
05-29-2015, 12:23 AM
no, no way. the Laker bench and rotation players slowly dwindled each season from 2000 through 2004, resulting in the 2003 and 2004 team having zero bench whatsoever. Dwights limitations on offense would have allowed teams to totally smother Kobe and he would have probably shot 3-4% lower. On a team that was designed to be a two headed monster in regards to supporting cast, Dwight doesn't bring enough to the table offensively to get that done. they'd be more like this years Rockets, but with a worse bench.

This. But i'd like to add that the lakers would have a BETTER SG than this years rockets team. :)

Kings Faithful
05-29-2015, 01:07 AM
By giving the Kings Way more free throws than the Lakers for the entire series? Even though the Lakers had the dominant Center who had to be beat down to be contained and the best slasher in the game at the time that attacked the rim at will? Please!

Keep telling yourself that. Its ok to feel a bit guilty you know.

GREATNESS ONE
05-29-2015, 01:11 AM
You guys do know this is just another lol, please troll thread, right? Prime Shaq versus what people are thinking about Howard today. Stop falling for this hot garbage.

😂

Bruno
05-29-2015, 01:26 AM
Keep telling yourself that. Its ok to feel a bit guilty you know.

the whole series was suspect but the Kings shot more FTs for the series and the biggest single game FT total discrepancy was a game that favored the Kings.

Randy West
05-29-2015, 01:31 AM
I think people forget just how dominate Shaq could be in a game, series or season for that matter. Shaq's better than Howard, I don't care what stat you try and find that shows Howard more capable in any facet of the game.

You could depend on Shaq if you had to, he had that similar will to win that Kobe has. Kobe has more of it but it rubbed off an Shaq as well. Howard does not have that, I have never seen Howard with that instinct putting the rest of the team on his back and willing everyone around him to get better.

kingsdelez24
05-29-2015, 12:24 PM
I'd almost rather take Divac in 02 than Howard

kingsdelez24
05-29-2015, 12:29 PM
Keep telling yourself that. Its ok to feel a bit guilty you know.

the whole series was suspect but the Kings shot more FTs for the series and the biggest single game FT total discrepancy was a game that favored the Kings.

Game 6 had the shoddiest officiating in basketball history. Anyone with eyes and without a hardon for the Lakers can point that out

Chronz
05-29-2015, 01:34 PM
Game 6 had the shoddiest officiating in basketball history. Anyone with eyes and without a hardon for the Lakers can point that out

refs favored the kings most of the series so who cares? kings choked plain n simple

kingsdelez24
05-29-2015, 02:20 PM
Game 6 had the shoddiest officiating in basketball history. Anyone with eyes and without a hardon for the Lakers can point that out

refs favored the kings most of the series so who cares? kings choked plain n simple

There's a difference between teams drawing fouls to earn yheir free throw attemts and absolute phantom fouls being called left and right to extend a series. Choke or no choke in game 7, there wasn't even supposed to be a game 7.

Hardly would have been 4 games if you swap Shaq for Howard

Chronz
05-29-2015, 02:26 PM
There's a difference between teams drawing fouls to earn yheir free throw attemts and absolute phantom fouls being called left and right to extend a series. Choke or no choke in game 7, there wasn't even supposed to be a game 7.

Hardly would have been 4 games if you swap Shaq for Howard
There's a difference for sure, we just don't agree on which team benefited the most. Kings c hoked. Had the game s been called fairly, lakeshow ends them much sooner

Bruno
05-29-2015, 09:50 PM
Game 6 had the shoddiest officiating in basketball history. Anyone with eyes and without a hardon for the Lakers can point that out

basketball history? it arguably wasn't the shoddiest called game in its own series.
Game Three:
LAL- 15 FTA
SAC- 35 FTA
20 FTA discrepancy

Game Six:
LAL- 40 FTA
SAC- 25 FTA
15 FTA discrepancy


Laker fans at least have a decent statistical argument when we complain about 2008. In game two in Boston, The Celtics shot 38 free throws, the Lakers shot 10. that was a 28 free throw difference, meanwhile everyone in sacramento has been complaining about a 15 free throw discrepancy for almost 15 years.

Leon Powe took more free throw attempts off the celtics bench than the entire Laker team in that game. Remember Leon Powe? He was a second round pick who played 239 games in the pros, starting 19 games in his career. he's been out of the league since 2011, he's still only 31. he had an ACL injury in 2009.

KnicksorBust
05-29-2015, 09:56 PM
Game 6 had the shoddiest officiating in basketball history. Anyone with eyes and without a hardon for the Lakers can point that out

basketball history? it arguably wasn't the shoddiest called game in its own series.
Game Three:
LAL- 15 FTA
SAC- 35 FTA
20 FTA discrepancy

Game Six:
LAL- 40 FTA
SAC- 25 FTA
15 FTA discrepancy


Laker fans at least have a decent statistical argument when we complain about 2008. In game two in Boston, The Celtics shot 38 free throws, the Lakers shot 10. that was a 28 free throw difference, meanwhile everyone in sacramento has been complaining about a 15 free throw discrepancy for almost 15 years.

Leon Powe took more free throw attempts off the celtics bench than the entire Laker team in that game. Remember Leon Powe? He was a second round pick who played 239 games in the pros, starting 19 games in his career. he's been out of the league since 2011, he's still only 31. he had an ACL injury in 2009.

Do you really trust blindly comparing a static number like raw FTA? I mean I have watched that youtube series multiple times that shows play by play some of the bad calls in the Lakers favor.

Bruno
05-29-2015, 10:16 PM
Do you really trust blindly comparing a static number like raw FTA? I mean I have watched that youtube series multiple times that shows play by play some of the bad calls in the Lakers favor.

not blindly, but I've watched these games were talking about more than once.

if you're talking about game six I agree with you, bad calls. i'm just making the point that if you sit down and watch game three (nobody does this because the Laker won, so who cares right?) you'll see officiating that is terrible, and that we have worse examples that rarely get discussed. yet here we are 13 years later still talking about game six.