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View Full Version : All-Time Redraft Conference Finals: (1) Jerusalem vs (3) Flint



Shammyguy3
05-26-2015, 07:42 PM
Each year PSD users on the forum partake in a fantasy snake-draft consisting of all-time players. Players are designated for certain eras based on their peak, and we've used a general 5 year prime to try and rank players overall value (so try and vote based on that 5-year peak as best you can). After the draft, opposing conferences voted for playoff ranking. So, given the two rosters below, if they were to face in real life (with every player in their 5-year prime), which team would win in the 7-game series?

1. Jerusalem (Home-Court Advantage)
PG: Steve Nash - Mike Conley
SG: Alvin Robertson - Eddie Jones
SF: Grant Hill - Michael Finley
PF: Dirk Nowitzki - Mychal Thompson
C : Hakeem Olajuwon - DeMarcus Cousins

3. Flint
C: Tim Duncan (30) – Brad Daugherty (13) – Walt Bellamy (5)
PF: Scottie Pippen (27) – Buck Williams (11) – Tim Duncan (10)
SF: Shane Battier (30) – Scottie Pippen (13) – Andre Iguodala (5)
SG: Vince Carter (38) – Andre Iguodala (10)
PG: Tim Hardaway (39) – Ron Harper (9)


Jerusalem Write-Up

Head-to-Head

Steve Nash vs Tim Hardaway

Nash is an arguably top 6 PG in NBA history; Hardaway is top 15-20. Nash’s 2 MVP’s, elite efficiency (50-40-90 multiple times), superior passing, playmaking, and floor spacing make this a clear cut win for Jerusalem.

Alvin Robertson vs Vince Carter

Jerusalem has the perfect player to guard their number 1 scorer in Alvin Robertson. Not many wing players have a Defensive Player of the year award like Alvin Robertson does. Furthermore, Vince Carter will actually have to work defensively as Alvin is a 20+ ppg playoff scorer on elite efficiency. Robertson was the more efficient player, light years better defender, better rebounder, and better playmaker. Vince Carter has the edge on volume scoring (although not as efficient) as Robertson’s postseason play.

Grant Hill vs Scottie Pippen

Scottie Pippen has the superior career, but in terms of peak performance, Grant Hill actually had just as good, if not better, 5 year peak numbers. It’s a shame that Grant Hill only had 6 amazing years of elite production before getting injury, but fortunately for the parameters of this game, all we need are 5 years. *Both were good scorers, great rebounders, great playmakers, and good defenders. Scottie Pippen has the slightest of edges in this matchup.

Dirk Nowitzki vs Buck Williams

Let’s be honest. Buck Williams would be lucky to make backup PF in an all time redraft. Going against Dirk Nowitzki, the most unguardable PF to ever play the game, will be a nightmare for Buck. Being 4 inches shorter, Dirk will be essentially shooting over a chair the entire game. The gap in talent is the biggest between opposing starters so far in this all time redraft. Ginormous win for Jerusalem in this matchup.

Hakeem Olajuwon vs Tim Duncan

Without a doubt, Olajuwon was the more lethal offensive and defensive player that Tim Duncan is. Duncan is a top 10 player due to his longevity, but his 5 year peak is completely inferior on both ends of the floor compared to Olajuwon. Olajuwon is a 2 time Defensive Player of the Year award winner, as well as a career 25+ points, 10+ rebounds in the post season. Duncan will have to exert himself extensively on the defensive end so that this doesn’t become a blowout victory for Jerusalem in the Conference Finals.

Rotation

PG: Steve Nash – Mikey Conley SG: Alvin Robertson – Eddie Jones SF: Grant Hill – Eddie Jones PF: Dirk Nowitzki – Hakeem Olajuwon C: Hakeem Olajuwon – Mychal Thompson

Defense

The only player in Jerusalem’s rotation that is below average defensively is Steve Nash. Fortunately, he is playing with a DPOY winners in Hakeem and Robertson, and has arguably the league’s current best defensive PG in Mike Conley playing around him. Grant Hill and Eddie Jones are 2 elite wing defenders that covered the opposing team’s best wing player for their respective teams.

Nash will be on Hardaway. Considering neither player was great defensively, Nash will get the upper hand in the matchup. Also, Mike Conley will have backup minutes who is an elite defensive PG and should make life tough for Hardaway. Robertson will be on Vince Carter. How will Carter get points when a DPOY wing defender, Robertson, is covering him? When Robertson goes out the game, Carter will have Eddie Jones covering him; At no point will Carter be able to take advantage of a weak defensive player to get his team’s points as the number 1 scoring option. Grant Hill will be on Scottie Pippen. Hill will be guarding Scottie Pippen for most of their minutes on the floor. When Hill goes to the bench, Eddie Jones will take over as backup SF to hound Pippen on the defensive end. Dirk will be on Buck Williams. Dirk has proven to be a positive defender in his 5 year prime and has the quickness and length needed to contest Buck William’s shots (not that he is a lethal scorer anyways). Hakeem Olajuwon will obviously be put on Tim Duncan. Hakeem has the speed, length, and defensive IQ to make Duncan work incredibly hard to get his points. Mychal Thompson will take over backup center position where he was one of the league’ss elite C/PF defensive players (just ask Kevin McHale).

Offense

Pick and Roll

Jerusalem’s bread and butter will be pick and roll basketball. Nash/Dirk, Nash/Olajuwon, and Dirk/Olajuwon will give their defenders nightmares. Their astronomical basketball IQ and efficiency will make them the far superior offensive threat.

Fast Break

Having 3 wing players to control the *fastbreak will make Jerusalem play, at times, in an up tempo offense. On steals (Alvin Robertson and Hakeem Olajuwon the 2 highest steals per game averages for their respective positions), they will push the floor and score on transition with ease. Even on some defensive rebounds (Alvin and Grant were incredibly gifted rebounders for their position) the fastbreak could be ignited for a change of pace offense, completely taking the defenders by surprise. (Of course, Jersualem has too much passing, spacing, and low post scoring to ignore the halfcourt game.)

Scottie Pippen (their best wing defender) will be guarding Jerusalem’s 4th*scoring option! Let that sink in… Jerusalem’s 4th*scoring option! Tim Duncan (their best post defender) will suffer offensively because he will be using all his energy trying to stop Hakeem Olajuwon defensively. Not only will Olajuwon still get his points, but they still have no answer for the other Jerusalem bigman, Dirk Nowitzki! Their defense is not nearly enough to stop Jerusalem.

Efficiency

Dirk, Nash, and Olajuwon are 3 astronomically efficient scorers. Grant Hill and Alvin Robertson were also efficient but there is not one team in the playoffs with the efficiency Jerusalem has. Two players had 50-40-90 season averages!


Flint Write-Up



Depth Chart (MPG):
C: Tim Duncan (30) – Brad Daugherty (13) – Walt Bellamy (5)
PF: Scottie Pippen (27) – Buck Williams (11) – Tim Duncan (10)
SF: Shane Battier (30) – Scottie Pippen (13) – Andre Iguodala (5)
SG: Vince Carter (38) – Andre Iguodala (10)
PG: Tim Hardaway (39) – Ron Harper (9)

Ahh yes yes, the almighty Jerusalem! How could anyone possibly beat them, they are too good! Well, hold onto your hats gentlemen, because I believe that my Flint Tropics are the perfect team to take down Jerusalem, mainly because of the defense that we are able to put out onto the floor.

As you can see, we have made yet another lineup change on our playoff run. In this matchup, we will have Duncan at center covering Hakeem the Dream. There are few players capable of handling Hakeem’s offensive versatility moreso than Tim Duncan, and Hakeem being forced to cover Duncan on the other side will be a historic must-watch type of matchup that we believe to be fairly even, with us having the advantage because of Duncan’s superior defensive play.

Now our biggest change in this series is putting Scottie Pippen at PF. In most All Time Redraft matchups, having Pippen at PF would be silly. He would be undersized, and under-utilized defensively at this position. But against Jerusalem, Pippen is covering the star PF that he was built for: Dirk Nowitzki. Obviously Dirk is a matchup nightmare offensively for 99% of the men that would normally guard him, but there is not a better defender more equipped of guarding Dirk than the man that many call the best defender of all-time in Pippen. Dirk doesn’t have the strength to overpower Pippen, and Pippen’s agility and elite defensive prowess will cause Dirk fits all series. There was a reason why I acquired Pippen very late into this game, and that was for him to lockdown Dirk once I faced Jerusalem in these playoffs.

Shane Battier is the newest starter in the Flint rotation, and we believe 100% that he will get the job done. He was a very good 3pt shooter (38.5% over his career) that will space the floor for my 4 stars to operate, and will play great defense against Grant Hill. Hill will have serious trouble in this series, because in his prime he was not a good 3pt shooter whatsoever, and he is matched up against one of the better man-to-man defenders of this era in Battier.

Now the biggest advantage that we have on the wings is 3pt shooting. This is something that Grant Hill and Alvin Robertson severely lacked, but Vince Carter and Battier were both very good shooters in their primes. Now sure, Robertson will give Carter some issues as far as efficiency goes, but with both of my wing players also having the 3pt shot available, and with Dirk most likely having to chase around Battier on the 3pt line, I will be able to shoot at a much higher efficiency than Jerusalem.

Honestly, I see the PG matchup and benches as relatively even. Hardaway and Nash were both fantastic offensive players with very little to offer defensively, so they will both get theirs. I do caution the voter to remember though that this isn’t the Phoenix Steve Nash. He will not be playing in a run and gun system, so his statistics from PHX will not be nearly the same that he averages in this series. The benches are also very even and are strong suits of these teams, which is probably a reason we both made it so far.

So there you have it. This will be an epic series and will probably last 7 games, but I believe with my elite defense and my superstar Tim Duncan that I can absolutely overcome this Jerusalem star power, and Dirk will have nightmares of Scottie Pippen for years to come :).

MFFL==FML
05-26-2015, 08:55 PM
While I like the attempt to stop Dirk with Pippen, I have to say that is a major reason I'm not going to vote for flint. Pippen "guarded" Dirk in the mid 90s when he was only 17 or 18 when the USA team played Germany. He told Charles Barkley that he was going to "lock up" Dirk, but he couldn't. Dirk went on to score 50+ points that game. There is a video on YouTube of Charles talking about it in front of all the cameras. A seasoned Dirk would annihilate Pippen.

Also, Grant Hill could guard Pippen, and Dirk could relax on defense by guarding Battier. Flint loses scoring and rebounding to an already superior rebounding and scoring team. If flint doesn't adjust, I vote Jerusalem in 4 games.

tredigs
05-26-2015, 09:00 PM
Jerusalem is beastly. He's pretty much got a DPOY and/or MVP at every position, whereas Flint is starting Shane Battier at small forward. The switch of Scottie to PF is all well and good, but you're giving up size/rebounding and still don't have the advantage offensively, where he has 3 of the top offensive players at their position in Nash/Dirk/Dream. You say this team wouldn't run like the '07 suns, but actually they could if they wanted to. Young Dirk played with Nash in Nelly's fast paced Dallas offense and crushed (they were the NBA's best O). Peak Duncan was enough to bust them out of the WCF's (which is a nice touch for you), but Olajuwon in the stead of Raef Lafrentz is a nice little upgrade.

Where Jerusalem lacks is spacing at the wings, but with Flint lacking in size, the PnR with Nash/Olajuwon and a 3pt set Dirk would be brutal. And even h2h, Pip just doesn't have size/strength to stop Dirk's ISO post-up fades. Nobody really does. And Battier's a fine defender, but prime G. Hill was MVP caliber and would absolutely slaughter this matchup while not having to worry about him much at all on the other end. The Duncan/Olajuwon disparity isn't as big as Jerusalem makes it out to be in his write-up, but it is an advantage for him. Olajuwon's size and skill on both ends is going to neutralize him quite a bit. At the very best, you could call that a wash. And Nash/Robertson/Hill/Dirk > Hardaway/VC/Battier/Pippen. Bench play seems to also slightly favor Jerusalem.

I don't think this would reach 6 games.

tredigs
05-26-2015, 09:21 PM
Out of curiosity, why are you playing Shane Battier 30 minutes to Iguodala's 10? In his prime he's a better player on both ends and would give you a better shot here.

unleashthebeast
05-26-2015, 09:33 PM
Out of curiosity, why are you playing Shane Battier 30 minutes to Iguodala's 10? In his prime he's a better player on both ends and would give you a better shot here.

Iggy is also getting some minutes at SG, but I see what you're getting at. Iggy in his prime was best with the ball in his hands, and with Scottie VC and Hardaway all being that way, starting Iggy didn't make much sense. We also like Battier's 3 and D ball more for this series.

Iggy is the point forward from off of the bench.

tredigs
05-26-2015, 10:16 PM
Iggy is also getting some minutes at SG, but I see what you're getting at. Iggy in his prime was best with the ball in his hands, and with Scottie VC and Hardaway all being that way, starting Iggy didn't make much sense. We also like Battier's 3 and D ball more for this series.

Iggy is the point forward from off of the bench.

Didn't see the other minutes, and I get the 3/D factor (figured that's why you were doing it and it has merit), but personally I'd want the added explosion offensively and slightly superior defense. You'll need all the firepower/x-factors you can get here imo. Nice team overall btw. Just happens that Jerusalem is a buzz-saw.

Realistically though, you have to think an NBA coach would roll with their 20/10 7 footer and throw Daugherty in to start.

Daugherty/Duncan/Pippen/VC/Hardaway offers you the most size and best offensive lineup. Olajuwon or Dirk would abuse Daugherty, but I think they're getting theirs regardless. Might as well take the advantage on the other end as well.

NYKalltheway
05-26-2015, 10:33 PM
There's no way I'm buying that Pippen can guard Dirk... Dirk will average 30+ in the series if Buck's not on him. Buck is a legit PF defender and you use Pippen on Dirk? That's where you lose my vote. If you gave Buck more minutes on Dirk I'd probably vote for Flint.

NYKalltheway
05-26-2015, 10:36 PM
For real, Flint should play:

Duncan
Buck
Pippen
Carter
Hardaway

and it's a win... I don't get this suicidial move... Heck, even Daugherty-Duncan was good enough!

KnicksorBust
05-26-2015, 10:39 PM
There's no way I'm buying that Pippen can guard Dirk... Dirk will average 30+ in the series if Buck's not on him. Buck is a legit PF defender and you use Pippen on Dirk? That's where you lose my vote. If you gave Buck more minutes on Dirk I'd probably vote for Flint.

Pop quiz:

In real life what defender famously guarded Dirk to his worst post season ever?

MFFL==FML
05-26-2015, 11:06 PM
In all honesty, Pippen starting didn't change anything. Jerusalem is too talented from top to bottom. Battier starting only makes this series over in 4 games as opposed to Buck Williams starting and losing in 4 or 5.

Look at Jerusalem's bench. Eddie Jones is better than Shane Battier AND Andre Iguodala. Mychal Thompson and DeMarcus Cousins are better than Daugherty and buck Williams. He essentially has 2 bench player's that could start for flint's team.

NYKalltheway
05-26-2015, 11:29 PM
Pop quiz:

In real life what defender famously guarded Dirk to his worst post season ever?


Are you talking about Pietrus? (had to check as I didn't really follow the NBA in the mid 2000s that much)

Sadds The Gr8
05-26-2015, 11:32 PM
Trying to be cute and putting pippen at pf is dumb imo. Shoulda just started with Daugherty-Duncan.

U coulda just mentioned pippen getting mins on Dirk in the write-up

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 04:03 AM
As someone mentioned earlier, here is the video about how Pippen got destroyed by the 18-year old Dirk Nowitzki.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlz01nBrl4s

Now imagine a primed Dirk Nowitzki... The Dirk Nowitzki who is one of 4 guys to average 25/10 for playoff averages... the Dirk Nowitzki who averaged 26/11 (on elite efficiency) in his 5 year playoff prime. Pippen was still in his prime then (30 years old) when Dirk started making a name for himself dropping 52 points on him.

Dirk can essentially save all his energy for the offensive end as he only has to "guard" Battier on the perimeter. Battier can't drive, he wasn't a great passer, he was essentially a 3 and D guy who couldn't average 10 points in 35 minutes of action in his 5 year prime (05-10)! In short, Jerusalem is happy to have Pippen on Dirk. ;)

From SG to PF, Jerusalem has above average rebounders for their respective positions. So imagine an already astronomically efficient squad (Nash/Nowitzki/Olajuwon), getting a plethora of second chance points off the offensive rebounds gathered by Alvin Robertson (6.1 rebounds in 5 year prime), Grant Hill (8.1 rebounds in 5 year prime), Dirk Nowitzki (10.9 rebounds in 5 year playoff prime), and Hakeem Olajuwon (12.3 rebounds in 5 year prime). It would all be but an absolute certainty to get points every possession! Not to mention, they will be an even better defensive rebounding team as well!

About "Hardaway and Nash" being a wash, this simply just isn't true. How can you compare
a 2x (back-to-back) MVP, 3 times in 5 year prime assist leader, arguably the greatest shooter in NBA history to a PG who has managed to make NBA 1st team only once?! Nash has more MVPs than Hardaway has 1st teams and they expect people to buy they are equal:confused:

Also, anyone who says "Nash played in a regular system in Dallas, he only put up good numbers in Phoenix because of the fast pace they played" don't know anything about Nash and even less about the Dallas Mavericks. Don Nelson coached Dirk and Nash and played at a fast pace in Dallas! Nash was a late bloomer! The more playing time and control of the offense, the better his numbers got. In Phoenix, he was the number 1 man and it was there he showcased his offensive skills. Jerusalem could not only play in a fast pace tempo if they wanted to, they would actually thrive in it!!! The pick and roll basketball with Nash/Dirk, Nash/Hakeem, and Dirk/Hakeem is just more unguardable and easier to set up in the playoffs so they will pick and choose their moments to pick up the tempo of the game.

Dirk goes off this series and averages 35 points on .630 TS% with Pippen guarding him, and Hakeem gets his business as usual 28/15 on .560 TS% (Duncan will have no one to help him when Hakeem is in the paint and Hakeem will get many offensive rebounds/second chance points with no real PF helping get the boards).

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 12:39 PM
Are you talking about Pietrus? (had to check as I didn't really follow the NBA in the mid 2000s that much)

No I'm not talking about Pietrus. Stephen Jackson on the Warriors really showed his defensive potential by using his speed, length, and athleticism to completely throw off Dirk's game. Pippen is Sjax on steroids.

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 12:43 PM
As someone mentioned earlier, here is the video about how Pippen got destroyed by the 18-year old Dirk Nowitzki.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlz01nBrl4s

Now imagine a primed Dirk Nowitzki... The Dirk Nowitzki who is one of 4 guys to average 25/10 for playoff averages... the Dirk Nowitzki who averaged 26/11 (on elite efficiency) in his 5 year playoff prime. Pippen was still in his prime then (30 years old) when Dirk started making a name for himself dropping 52 points on him.

Dirk can essentially save all his energy for the offensive end as he only has to "guard" Battier on the perimeter. Battier can't drive, he wasn't a great passer, he was essentially a 3 and D guy who couldn't average 10 points in 35 minutes of action in his 5 year prime (05-10)! In short, Jerusalem is happy to have Pippen on Dirk. ;)

From SG to PF, Jerusalem has above average rebounders for their respective positions. So imagine an already astronomically efficient squad (Nash/Nowitzki/Olajuwon), getting a plethora of second chance points off the offensive rebounds gathered by Alvin Robertson (6.1 rebounds in 5 year prime), Grant Hill (8.1 rebounds in 5 year prime), Dirk Nowitzki (10.9 rebounds in 5 year playoff prime), and Hakeem Olajuwon (12.3 rebounds in 5 year prime). It would all be but an absolute certainty to get points every possession! Not to mention, they will be an even better defensive rebounding team as well!

About "Hardaway and Nash" being a wash, this simply just isn't true. How can you compare
a 2x (back-to-back) MVP, 3 times in 5 year prime assist leader, arguably the greatest shooter in NBA history to a PG who has managed to make NBA 1st team only once?! Nash has more MVPs than Hardaway has 1st teams and they expect people to buy they are equal:confused:

Also, anyone who says "Nash played in a regular system in Dallas, he only put up good numbers in Phoenix because of the fast pace they played" don't know anything about Nash and even less about the Dallas Mavericks. Don Nelson coached Dirk and Nash and played at a fast pace in Dallas! Nash was a late bloomer! The more playing time and control of the offense, the better his numbers got. In Phoenix, he was the number 1 man and it was there he showcased his offensive skills. Jerusalem could not only play in a fast pace tempo if they wanted to, they would actually thrive in it!!! The pick and roll basketball with Nash/Dirk, Nash/Hakeem, and Dirk/Hakeem is just more unguardable and easier to set up in the playoffs so they will pick and choose their moments to pick up the tempo of the game.

Dirk goes off this series and averages 35 points on .630 TS% with Pippen guarding him, and Hakeem gets his business as usual 28/15 on .560 TS% (Duncan will have no one to help him when Hakeem is in the paint and Hakeem will get many offensive rebounds/second chance points with no real PF helping get the boards).

I hate everything about this post. How is a clip of Charles Barkley rambling about a random game proof of anything substantial? If you want to go with small samples how about when Sjax embarassed Dirk in round 1 of his MVP season. How about the fact that Pippen is vastly superior to Sjax? The idea that Pippen would give up 35ppg on 63%TS% to anyone other than a Shaq/Wilt type is a joke. I completely agree with those arguing that starting Battier was a mistake. Especially when you have players like Buck/Daugherty wasting on the bench. He over-thought the whole strategy on Dirk. But seriously this is a total disrespect to Pippen who was an animal in his prime.

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 01:04 PM
Perhaps Dirk wouldn't get the .630 TS%, but to say only Shaq/Wilt type you would be mistaken. Dirk has averaged higher than .630 TS% in 2 his 5 year prime playoffs, as has Steve Nash. I might be underrating Pippen a bit, but you're underrating Dirk's postseason TS%.

If Pippen wasn't guarding Dirk, I'd expect Dirk to hit his typical 5 year playoff prime average TS% of .600. If he did that against superior PF defenders (Duncan, Ibaka, etc...), I don't think it's insane to think he increases it to .630 TS% (which would rank as his 3rd worst TS% in his 5 year playoff prime).

Also, the video doesn't "prove" anything. It just gives support for Pippen not having the tools to guard an 18 year old Dirk. Pippen stated himself he couldn't do anything to stop him. It's a small sample size, but I never claimed it was 30 games he did that, but only to show, the only known example of Pippen guarding Dirk was during Pippen's prime (30 years old) and Dirk was not even close to his prime (18 years old). Would you rather NO evidence than a small sample size that actually goes against my favor (Dirk not in prime yet, Pippen in prime)?

Ebbs
05-27-2015, 01:15 PM
No I'm not talking about Pietrus. Stephen Jackson on the Warriors really showed his defensive potential by using his speed, length, and athleticism to completely throw off Dirk's game. Pippen is Sjax on steroids.

I agree with SJax giving Dirk the most hell. Pippen is not S-Jax on steroids. Different players significantly. It was also that the Warriors ran the double team with smalls. Wouldn't let Dirk put it on the floor.

Ebbs
05-27-2015, 01:15 PM
Dirk winning over Duncan in the conference Finals. glorious.

Good run Flint, hell of a team.

unleashthebeast
05-27-2015, 01:17 PM
RR I have essentially lost at this point but your posts are ****ing ridiculous lol.

Your team is going to get every rebound? Really? Who exactly is going to be in the paint to get all of these rebounds? Dirk is a perimeter player, essentially leaving Duncan vs Hakeem on the boards. How the **** do you expect Hakeem to win every single battle on the boards against a top 6 player of all time in his own right?

And all of this Dirk **** is ridiculous as well. He is matched up against a top 3 defender of all time, who has the quickness and elite athletic prowess to absolutely slow Dirk down. He's going to score 35ppg? Give me a break lol.

You're lucky your team is so good that people can look over the absolutely ridiculous claims that you make in these threads.

Ebbs
05-27-2015, 01:25 PM
Dirk does average 10 boards a game in the playoffs dog.

But yea he's going a tad extreme.

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 01:35 PM
Okay okay, I may have slightly exaggerated. :o

UTB and Nate, you did a great job trading/building your roster. You two make a lethal combo of gms, I'll say that much.

valade16
05-27-2015, 01:38 PM
8-2 and you're conceding? I didn't concede until it was like 15-2 lol

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 01:41 PM
8-2 and you're conceding? I didn't concede until it was like 15-2 lol

You were like the Chinese man vs the tank...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 03:08 PM
I agree with SJax giving Dirk the most hell. Pippen is not S-Jax on steroids. Different players significantly. It was also that the Warriors ran the double team with smalls. Wouldn't let Dirk put it on the floor.

I'd be very interested to hear about the significant differences in how they play defense.

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 03:08 PM
8-2 and you're conceding? I didn't concede until it was like 15-2 lol

Agreed. 8-3. Step it up UTB.

MFFL==FML
05-27-2015, 03:51 PM
I can't vote on this app, but count my vote for Jerusalem in 4 games.

tredigs
05-27-2015, 04:20 PM
You guys are nuts if you think that was Jax on Dirk in ISO. That was high intensity gang defense and forcing other players to make shots. Plus, they were pretty much the slowest paced team in the league that year iirc, and the Warriors were FLYING in transition + Oracle was going absolutely crazy. Basically, they were out of sorts and shook. That wouldn't happen with Dirk on this team, and he'd do just fine against Pippen.

Ebbs
05-27-2015, 04:31 PM
You guys are nuts if you think that was Jax on Dirk in ISO. That was high intensity gang defense and forcing other players to make shots. Plus, they were pretty much the slowest paced team in the league that year iirc, and the Warriors were FLYING in transition + Oracle was going absolutely crazy. Basically, they were out of sorts and shook. That wouldn't happen with Dirk on this team, and he'd do just fine against Pippen.

That's what I said, that it was a double from two smalls who didn't let Dirk dribble.

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 04:33 PM
You guys are nuts if you think that was Jax on Dirk in ISO. That was high intensity gang defense and forcing other players to make shots. Plus, they were pretty much the slowest paced team in the league that year iirc, and the Warriors were FLYING in transition + Oracle was going absolutely crazy. Basically, they were out of sorts and shook. That wouldn't happen with Dirk on this team, and he'd do just fine against Pippen.

Your team that year was phenomenal against Dallas. Davis - Ellis - Jackson - Harington - Biedrins - Richardson, etc... they just had Dallas' number that year. 4-0 in regular season.

You're absolutely correct. Dallas had the little General Avery Johnson making his team play in a slower pace, defense oriented team. Don Nelson knew what to do.

In this game, not only does Dirk replace Devin Harris with Steve Nash, Jason Terry with Alvin Robertson, Josh Howard with Grant Hill, and Erick freaking Dampier with Hakeem Olajuwon, the offense can play any type of speed with hyper efficiency.

unleashthebeast
05-27-2015, 05:11 PM
Your team that year was phenomenal against Dallas. Davis - Ellis - Jackson - Harington - Biedrins - Richardson, etc... they just had Dallas' number that year. 4-0 in regular season.

You're absolutely correct. Dallas had the little General Avery Johnson making his team play in a slower pace, defense oriented team. Don Nelson knew what to do.

In this game, not only does Dirk replace Devin Harris with Steve Nash, Jason Terry with Alvin Robertson, Josh Howard with Grant Hill, and Erick freaking Dampier with Hakeem Olajuwon, the offense can play any type of speed with hyper efficiency.

Again what the **** is your point lol. My team is not the Golden State warriors. I have a top 5 big man of all time, a top 3 defender of all time, and 2 all time great guards. I don't have ****ing Monta Ellis and Al Harrington running out there against Hakeem.

The point these people are making is that Stephen Jackson absolutely slowed down Dirk, and Pippen is infinitely more equipped to do the same.

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 05:31 PM
Again what the **** is your point lol. My team is not the Golden State warriors. I have a top 5 big man of all time, a top 3 defender of all time, and 2 all time great guards. I don't have ****ing Monta Ellis and Al Harrington running out there against Hakeem.

The point these people are making is that Stephen Jackson absolutely slowed down Dirk, and Pippen is infinitely more equipped to do the same.

Actually, you're missing the point they are making. :laugh:

They are saying it wasn't any one player. A few relevant points to remember:

1.) Dirk learned how to play against smaller defenders in his 5-year prime. The way his former coach, Don Nelson, played defensively against him was the reason Dirk learned to shoot over them as if they were chairs.

2.) While a small sample size, we already know a primed Pippen wasn't able to guard an 18 year old Dirk... why would he suddenly be able to stop a primed Dirk who knows how to shoot over smaller defenders (remember, this is Dirk's prime) with an even superior squad?

My point was that you're game planning against Dirk (albeit ineffectively), and in so doing, you commit suicide by reducing your scoring output and decreasing your rebounding by having Battier (less than 5 rebounds in 35 minutes of action in his 5 year prime) start at SF.

Furthermore, you're ignoring how much better Grant Hill is than Shane freaking Battier. What, because Battier was good defensively, he's just as valuable as Grant Hill:confused: We're talking about an MVP caliber player in his prime, Grant Hill! I may as well send you over Eddie Jones; He's superior in every way to Battier and he's coming off my bench! lol

You also have yet to address how we are suppose to believe Tim Hardaway and his 1x 1st team is equivalent to Steve Nash and his 2 MVPs... I'm guilty of stretching some (which you love to point out), but this is probably the biggest farce in the entire write up! lol You also didn't even know that Don Nelson coached a fast pace team in Dallas with Nash and Dirk... Do you even know who Don Nelson is:confused: This completely debunks your Nash myth as well as this notion that Jerusalem couldn't play in an up tempo offense. Why the hell not?! lol


You also don't have any sort of rebuttal for Jerusalem having 2 top 5 defenders in NBA history at their respective positions guarding your number 1 and 2 scorer (Alvin Robertson on Carter and Hakeem on Duncan). How does Flint plan to get points (not to mention, they have to play 4 on 5 since Battier is not a scoring threat)?

Shammyguy3
05-27-2015, 07:26 PM
Jerusalem overcomes Redrum's Vinny Del Negro-esque points with it's talent. Sorry UTB/Nate, i wish I could vote for you but Jerusalem's better in my opinion. Still would be a great series though

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 07:50 PM
You guys are nuts if you think that was Jax on Dirk in ISO. That was high intensity gang defense and forcing other players to make shots. Plus, they were pretty much the slowest paced team in the league that year iirc, and the Warriors were FLYING in transition + Oracle was going absolutely crazy. Basically, they were out of sorts and shook. That wouldn't happen with Dirk on this team, and he'd do just fine against Pippen.

That's what I said, that it was a double from two smalls who didn't let Dirk dribble.

No response?

tredigs
05-27-2015, 08:16 PM
No response?

Is that directed at me? I wasn't talking to him and didn't check back on what he initially wrote, I was just commenting on general to the Jax on Dirk bit. Obviously this isn't a series where you can afford to do much in the way of doubling without getting roasted, and Dirk is having his way against basically all comers 1 v 1.

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 08:26 PM
No response?

Is that directed at me? I wasn't talking to him and didn't check back on what he initially wrote, I was just commenting on general to the Jax on Dirk bit. Obviously this isn't a series where you can afford to do much in the way of doubling without getting roasted, and Dirk is having his way against basically all comers 1 v 1.

Nah him. He said Sjax and Pippen are significantly different defenders and I wanted him to clarify.

The_Jamal
05-28-2015, 04:05 PM
Flint can't overcome the fact that Hakeem and Duncan will essentially wash each other out. Dirk-Nash behind him is just too much for Flint to gameplan against. And while Pippen on Dirk is a good defensive strategy, I'd rather it be an "end of the game" sort of strategy, kind of like how Bron goes and guards the best player in the last 7 minutes of games.

Even then, it's still not at all the way you want to use him. You want Pippen's perimeter defense and ability to create on the perimeter. You're also making a really damn good rebounding SF into maybe an average rebounding PF.

Redrum makes finals

Shammyguy3
05-28-2015, 10:27 PM
Close matchup
Jerusalem 10
Flint 6

with a little under 24 hours to go

Redrum187
05-28-2015, 10:42 PM
Close matchup
Jerusalem 10
Flint 6

with a little under 24 hours to go

11 to 6, MFFL can't vote on his app.

Shammyguy3
05-29-2015, 07:43 PM
Jerusalem advances

KnicksorBust
05-29-2015, 09:34 PM
Anyone else find it amusing a team with Mike Conley and Demarcus Cousins is going to win an all-time redraft?

Lakers + Giants
05-29-2015, 10:00 PM
Anyone else find it amusing a team with Mike Conley and Demarcus Cousins is going to win an all-time redraft?

I'm the one that got both of em in the first place too. I guess I would've won it all had I kept em :p

tredigs
05-30-2015, 05:43 AM
Anyone else find it amusing a team with Mike Conley and Demarcus Cousins is going to win an all-time redraft?
Mike Conley no, DMC yes. I don't like him as a bench option. Great talent, but I don't trust him to "fall in place" on a team of this caliber and would've brought that up if I was arguing against his team. But again, Conley, no. He's the consummate teammate and a brilliant player to bring in off the bench.