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View Full Version : All-Time Redraft Conference Finals: (1) Rochester vs (3) Brampton



Shammyguy3
05-26-2015, 07:37 PM
Each year PSD users on the forum partake in a fantasy snake-draft consisting of all-time players. Players are designated for certain eras based on their peak, and we've used a general 5 year prime to try and rank players overall value (so try and vote based on that 5-year peak as best you can). After the draft, opposing conferences voted for playoff ranking. So, given the two rosters below, if they were to face in real life (with every player in their 5-year prime), which team would win in the 7-game series?

1. Rochester (Home-Court Advantage)
PG: Penny Hardaway - Mike Bibby
SG: Tracy McGrady - Jason Richardson
SF: Bruce Bowen - Dale Ellis
PF: Chris Webber - Dan Issel
C: Shaquille O'Neal - Zydrunas Ilgauskas

3. Brampton
PG: Walt Frazier (36) / Jason Terry (12)
SG: David Thompson (33) / Raja Bell (10) / Jason Terry (5)
SF: Paul Pierce (35) / Walter Davis (13)
PF: Chris Bosh (32) / Elton Brand (16)
C: Wilt Chamberlain (38) / Ralph Sampson (10)


Rochester did not send in a write-up.

Brampton Write-up


The key behind Rochester is their explosive offensive talent, but we feel that we have the perfect defenders and gameplan to stifle their offense.

PGís: Guarding Penny Hardaway will be Walt Frazier, who has the size and quickness to matchup with him. Walt is obviously an all-time great defender that can give Penny fits on that end. Penny isnít known to be a great shooter and depends on slashing/playmaking to be effective, so we can play off of him when he doesnít have the ball, and when he does, we can give him breathing room to try and force him into jumpers. We will go UNDER all Penny/Cwebb or Shaq PnRís to try and limit him from penetrating. Weíll also have bigs falling back into the paint to not only stop Penny drives, but to coax Cwebb into taking mid-range jumpers which lowers his efficiency (Cwebb shoots a lousy 46%FG, and 49%TS in the playoffs).

SGís: We will have PIERCE guarding T-Mac in this series. Paul Pierce has more size and length than Thompson, which will give him more success guarding T-Mac. T-Mac is similar to Penny in that their game comes from slashing and creating for others, so we can implement similar defensive tactics. Raja Bell, who has been first team all-defense player, will also see some time on T-mac. Weíll also go under T-Mac pick n rolls to coax him into jumpshots. Like Cwebb, T-Macís numbers also fall off in the playoffs and his offense becomes less effective (42%FG, 51%TS). Pierce is one of the underrated defenders of his era and with this gameplan, Pierceís ability, Rajaís peskiness and T-macís lower efficiency in the playoffs, we think we can make T-mac struggle in this series. Also, Penny and T-mac are both ball-dominant guards. Will they be comfortable playing with each other? Neither has the shooting ability to be effective off the ball.

SFís: Thompson will guard Bowen, who isnít much of an offensive threat. Heís a spot-up shooter that shoots with low volume and doesnít do anything else on that end. We donít have to play him with the same fear as some of the other all-time great shooters, so guarding him wonít be much of an issue. Some possessions are essentially 4 on 5 with him on the court.

PFs: Bosh will guard Cwebb, who as we mentioned, falls off in the playoffs. Bosh has become a much better defender in Miami and has more length than Cwebb to give him some trouble on the offensive end. Our bigs will sag into the paint on Cwebb Pnrís to try and get him to shoot mid-range jumpers, which he has shown that he can easily be forced into during his career. The lack of spacing in the Rochester starting lineup gives their bigs some trouble. They can all make plays, but can they hit their shots?

C: This is the key matchup of the series. Shaq vs Wilt are obviously the 2 best offensive Cís of all time, but we feel like we have a slight edge here. The Rochester lineup doesnít give Shaq much space, and we have a defender that can bother Shaq with size, skill, and just pure ability. During Shaqís championship runs, heís never went up against elite Cís (Rik Smits? Erick Dampier? Out of prime Sabonis? Todd Macculloch?). When he went up against an all-time great in a playoff series in Hakeem, he was given trouble. Wilt is obviously on the Hakeem side of the spectrum, and has the goods to give Shaq a problem on both ends.

Overall, we have the talent and the gameplan to give Rochester problems with our defense. Their stars other than Shaq arenít great shooters and all become much less efficient in the playoffs where gameplans and intensity ramps up. They donít have the spacing in their lineup to be effective, and having a shooter their bench play heavy minutes only helps us because theyíre all one-way players (Bibby, Jrich, Ellis) that can get abused on the defensive end. Our guys can play their stars 1 on 1 and wonít be forced into doubling due to lack of talent like some other teams.

On offense, our team has the versatility to give any team trouble. Like Iíve mentioned before, our roster is loaded with 2-way players and has great spacing and talent. Wilt, as I mentioned, is a dominant force that can match up with Shaq and has the ability to dominate the offensive end. Shaq, while being solid, isnít the great defensive threat like the other all-time great Centers and can be taken advantage of given the wrong matchups. We can attack Shaq in many different ways. With PnRís we can have JET and Wilt force Shaq into tough decisions on whether to step out and contest an elite shooter, or defend the best offensive C of all time rolling to the rim.

Bowen will be a pest defending Pierce, but Pierce is too much of a great all-around threat to be shut down in a series. In 2003 Pierce went up against a better defender in Ron Artest in a series and averaged 26 ppg on 55%TS, showing that he can be effective no matter which defender is guarding him. Pierceís ability to shoot 3ís, post-up, hit contested fadeaways, and earn FTís just makes him too tough to handle on the offensive end by 1 defender.

Bosh is also a very versatile player that can give Cwebb trouble, and Cwebb isnít a very good defender. Bosh is a threat in the mid-range, 3pt land, and rolling to the bucket. He can also face-up and be a great triple threat option. He comes up big in big games and is a big-shot maker. Our JET/Bosh pick n roll will be tough to defend without the elite defenders for Rochester to guard it. Bosh has a 55%TS in the playoffs, and even though itís on lower volume, he still shows that he can produce efficiently no matter how many shots he gets.

Our backcourt is also loaded with big-time scorers that averaged over 20 PPG in their prime. They are great slashers, and Frazier has the playmaking ability to make the engine run. Our lineup is 5-deep with offensive scorers that can explode in any game. Rochester has 4 offensive threats, and 3 of them come up much smaller in the playoffs and fell under the big expectations. Our bench has great threats that bring something different to the table. Terry and Bell bring elite shooting and pesky defense, Davis is great in transition and the mid-range game (averaged 19 ppg on 50%Fg, 54%TS). Brand is a great post-up player and mid-range threat who is also an underrated defender and a brute rebounder. Sampson was one of the elite talents in his prime before he got hurt and was a terror on both ends.

Overall, although on face their team has great talent, they all have been ineffective in the big games during the playoffs, and we have the great defensive players to challenge their squad. We also have 5 guys capable of scoring 20 ppg in our lineup and our bench is loaded with key contributors. We can win this series in 6 or 7 games.

KnicksorBust
05-26-2015, 09:33 PM
Wilt vs. Shaq. My head just exploded.

NYKalltheway
05-26-2015, 10:30 PM
I believe Rochester is the best team of the lot BUT Brampton matches up quite well against them due to their guards and obviously Wilt vs Shaq. I'm still gonna go with Rochester as I don't see Pierce making the difference vs Bowen and Bosh on Webber doesn't do it for me.

MFFL==FML
05-26-2015, 11:19 PM
The write up was spot on. Rochester has too many questions than answers for me. This is close but I'm leaning Brampton.

Sadds The Gr8
05-26-2015, 11:34 PM
I believe Rochester is the best team of the lot BUT Brampton matches up quite well against them due to their guards and obviously Wilt vs Shaq. I'm still gonna go with Rochester as I don't see Pierce making the difference vs Bowen and Bosh on Webber doesn't do it for me.
Cwebb production goes down a ton in the playoffs

Greet
05-27-2015, 11:28 AM
I'll wait to see Rochester counter some of the points made

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 12:51 PM
Nice write-up Brampton.

Penny and T-Mac are redundant. I don't like either playing off the ball.

Pierce is the perfect compliment to Frazier. Thompson's defense is easily hidden on Bowen and he can flat out score. I also think Bosh is the perfect compliment to Wilt. I initially was not a big fan of Brampton but over time I've come to really appreciate how well structured that roster is around Wilt.

I give Wilt the advantage in the epic head to head vs. Shaq which leaves me with Brampton in 6.

Ebbs
05-27-2015, 01:18 PM
I honestly think prime Shaq and prime Wilt is as close to a draw as it gets.

This is tough.

Seven game series. Leaning Rochester.

MFFL==FML
05-27-2015, 03:57 PM
If Rochester doesn't respond this becomes an even easier vote to make for me.

Killerjug
05-27-2015, 05:20 PM
This is going to be very half assed, but I'm super busy so just wanted to address some of Saddler's points.

1. I think the no spacing for Shaq is kinda ridiculous. For starts Webber is one of the better guys to space the floor for Shaq from the PF position. He is a midrange jump shooter which is why his TS% is so low and people consider him inefficient. Bruce Bowen was a 39% 3 point shooter throughout his career and in his prime he was around 42%. Tracy McGrady wasn't an elite spacer but he could still shoot around 35% from 3 in his prime. If I remember correctly, Kobe Bryant was never an elite spacer for Shaq either and he seemed to do just fine. Then we have Bibby off the Bench who shot like 38% from 3 and Dale Ellis shot 40% from 3 and was also around 42% from his prime. The lack of spacing is really not true as we have plenty of it to go with Shaq

2. I don't know why you brought up Hakeem vs. Shaq because that was obviously not in Shaq's prime which is what we are using for this game. Also you're going to use the centers Shaq dominated in the playoffs as a deterrent to him? How can you blame Shaq for dominating the players he was given to play. He had a 4 year stretch in the playoffs where he had win shares of 18 14 13 and 13. That is insane and was on roughly a .590 TS% as I know people like to knock our efficiency.

3. People are saying Penny and McGrady are redundant which I'm not going to say is false, but I don't really see the problem with it. We have 2 guys out there who can handle the ball and can dictate based on how the game is playing. Obviously McGrady is going to have the ball more than Hardaway which we feel will fatigue Pierce on the defensive end. Also as I stated earlier, if Hardaway does have the ball, McGrady can still shot it at a 35% clip which isn't horrible for it not being his game.

4. You totally cherry picked 1 series where Pierce did well against a good defender. I'm sure that I could go find a series where Bowen locked up a good scorer and it would have just as much merit.

will try and get to some stuff later also but good luck to Saddler as well he has a good squad

MFFL==FML
05-27-2015, 06:00 PM
This is going to be very half assed, but I'm super busy so just wanted to address some of Saddler's points.

1. I think the no spacing for Shaq is kinda ridiculous. For starts Webber is one of the better guys to space the floor for Shaq from the PF position. He is a midrange jump shooter which is why his TS% is so low and people consider him inefficient. Bruce Bowen was a 39% 3 point shooter throughout his career and in his prime he was around 42%. Tracy McGrady wasn't an elite spacer but he could still shoot around 35% from 3 in his prime. If I remember correctly, Kobe Bryant was never an elite spacer for Shaq either and he seemed to do just fine. Then we have Bibby off the Bench who shot like 38% from 3 and Dale Ellis shot 40% from 3 and was also around 42% from his prime. The lack of spacing is really not true as we have plenty of it to go with Shaq

2. I don't know why you brought up Hakeem vs. Shaq because that was obviously not in Shaq's prime which is what we are using for this game. Also you're going to use the centers Shaq dominated in the playoffs as a deterrent to him? How can you blame Shaq for dominating the players he was given to play. He had a 4 year stretch in the playoffs where he had win shares of 18 14 13 and 13. That is insane and was on roughly a .590 TS% as I know people like to knock our efficiency.

3. People are saying Penny and McGrady are redundant which I'm not going to say is false, but I don't really see the problem with it. We have 2 guys out there who can handle the ball and can dictate based on how the game is playing. Obviously McGrady is going to have the ball more than Hardaway which we feel will fatigue Pierce on the defensive end. Also as I stated earlier, if Hardaway does have the ball, McGrady can still shot it at a 35% clip which isn't horrible for it not being his game.

4. You totally cherry picked 1 series where Pierce did well against a good defender. I'm sure that I could go find a series where Bowen locked up a good scorer and it would have just as much merit.

will try and get to some stuff later also but good luck to Saddler as well he has a good squad

The year Olajuwon swept the Magic was Shaq's 3rd season. What did Shaq learn or do differently from the time he was swept to the five year prime you are using for him?

The answer to that is, absolutely nothing. Shaq always used his physical dominance and never changed his game up because he didn't need to. There were not many people that held up to him physically. Olajuwon was one a very few who could.

So really, why couldn't he use the argument that Olajuwon took advantage of Shaq even if it wasn't in his prime? He would be just as effective (or ineffective) because he was the same player his 3rd year as he was in whatever prime years you sign him to.

Shammyguy3
05-27-2015, 07:28 PM
I'm leaning Rochester right now

Jets012
05-27-2015, 08:37 PM
"Our bigs will sag into the paint on Cwebb Pnrís to try and get him to shoot mid-range jumpers, which he has shown that he can easily be forced into during his career. The lack of spacing in the Rochester starting lineup gives their bigs some trouble. They can all make plays, but can they hit their shots?"

Just got home from a work shift. I'll address some of these quickly:

I'll use Webber's Sacramento #s for this one.

From 10-16 feet in the 5 years he spent on the Kings, Webber shot 39.8% from the field. From 16+ feet, 2-pointers, Webber shot 41.3% from the field in Sacramento.

In comparison, the NBA average for this season from those distances was 40% from 10-16 and 39.5% from 16+ feet. Add in the fact that Webber is a PF and those numbers clearly show he's an effective mid-range shooter historically. Add in the fact that you have a guy as dominant as Shaq clogging the paint, Webber will get plenty of open looks at a much lower usage rate than he would have had in his career, which would lead to more efficient shooting.

Bowen containing Pierce is another match-up we feel quite comfortable in as well. Pierce will get his, but Bowen will make it tough. Using a 3 year sample size from 2003-2005 (assuming that this is close to the peak for both players), Bowen made Pierce's life incredibly difficult in match-ups. In an 8 game sample size between the two, Pierce shot around 38.5% from the field, which is incredibly inefficient, with Bowen on him the majority of the time.

You say floor spacing is an issue, but I don't buy it. Bowen still had years where he would shoot it over 40% from three. I have already mentioned about how Webber was very efficient for his position at mid-range jump shots. Dale Ellis who will receive major minutes off the bench, is one of the better shooters in NBA history. And whenever you are playing with someone who is such a demanding offensive presence like Shaq, you'll get loads of open looks outside, which almost all of our guys are capable of hitting, especially Hardaway and McGrady. I don't know how you can critique our floor spacing as a possible issue, when Brampton's is arguably a huge question mark. Neither Fraizer nor Thompson got to show their abilities from behind the arc during their careers.

Shammyguy3
05-27-2015, 08:53 PM
Player A during his 5-year prime playoff run shot 107/254 in 90 games, 42.1% on 2.8 attempts per game.
Player B during his 5-year prime playoff run shot 123/280 in 90 games, 43.9% on 3.1 attempts per game.



If Bruce Bowen can space the floor, then so does Michael Cooper!!! :laugh2: which i trust Bowen to space the floor, just as Cooper did for Azkaban

Shammyguy3
05-27-2015, 08:55 PM
"Our bigs will sag into the paint on Cwebb Pnrís to try and get him to shoot mid-range jumpers, which he has shown that he can easily be forced into during his career. The lack of spacing in the Rochester starting lineup gives their bigs some trouble. They can all make plays, but can they hit their shots?"

Just got home from a work shift. I'll address some of these quickly:

I'll use Webber's Sacramento #s for this one.

From 10-16 feet in the 5 years he spent on the Kings, Webber shot 39.8% from the field. From 16+ feet, 2-pointers, Webber shot 41.3% from the field in Sacramento.

In comparison, the NBA average for this season from those distances was 40% from 10-16 and 39.5% from 16+ feet. Add in the fact that Webber is a PF and those numbers clearly show he's an effective mid-range shooter historically. Add in the fact that you have a guy as dominant as Shaq clogging the paint, Webber will get plenty of open looks at a much lower usage rate than he would have had in his career, which would lead to more efficient shooting.

Bowen containing Pierce is another match-up we feel quite comfortable in as well. Pierce will get his, but Bowen will make it tough. Using a 3 year sample size from 2003-2005 (assuming that this is close to the peak for both players), Bowen made Pierce's life incredibly difficult in match-ups. In an 8 game sample size between the two, Pierce shot around 38.5% from the field, which is incredibly inefficient, with Bowen on him the majority of the time.

You say floor spacing is an issue, but I don't buy it. Bowen still had years where he would shoot it over 40% from three. I have already mentioned about how Webber was very efficient for his position at mid-range jump shots. Dale Ellis who will receive major minutes off the bench, is one of the better shooters in NBA history. And whenever you are playing with someone who is such a demanding offensive presence like Shaq, you'll get loads of open looks outside, which almost all of our guys are capable of hitting, especially Hardaway and McGrady. I don't know how you can critique our floor spacing as a possible issue, when Brampton's is arguably a huge question mark. Neither Fraizer nor Thompson got to show their abilities from behind the arc during their careers.

The bolded is spot-on, the only question mark Brampton has

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2015, 12:09 AM
This is going to be very half assed, but I'm super busy so just wanted to address some of Saddler's points.

1. I think the no spacing for Shaq is kinda ridiculous. For starts Webber is one of the better guys to space the floor for Shaq from the PF position. He is a midrange jump shooter which is why his TS% is so low and people consider him inefficient. Bruce Bowen was a 39% 3 point shooter throughout his career and in his prime he was around 42%. Tracy McGrady wasn't an elite spacer but he could still shoot around 35% from 3 in his prime. If I remember correctly, Kobe Bryant was never an elite spacer for Shaq either and he seemed to do just fine. Then we have Bibby off the Bench who shot like 38% from 3 and Dale Ellis shot 40% from 3 and was also around 42% from his prime. The lack of spacing is really not true as we have plenty of it to go with Shaq
I meant the starting lineup, not your bench. Bowen is the only shooter and he shoots 2-3 per game. Webber is more of a shot taker than a shot maker when it comes to jumpers.


2. I don't know why you brought up Hakeem vs. Shaq because that was obviously not in Shaq's prime which is what we are using for this game. Also you're going to use the centers Shaq dominated in the playoffs as a deterrent to him? How can you blame Shaq for dominating the players he was given to play. He had a 4 year stretch in the playoffs where he had win shares of 18 14 13 and 13. That is insane and was on roughly a .590 TS% as I know people like to knock our efficiency.
I'm not using it as a deterrent. I'm just mentioning that he never dominated an elite big in his title runs, and that Wilt is more on the elite end of the spectrum. Shaq will obviously get numbers, but Wilt will dominate as well.



4. You totally cherry picked 1 series where Pierce did well against a good defender. I'm sure that I could go find a series where Bowen locked up a good scorer and it would have just as much merit.

who else is a similar comp to Bowen that Pierce has faced? I can't think of one. He also averaged 18 ppg on 55%TS against Artest again in the '10 finals

Sadds The Gr8
05-28-2015, 12:33 AM
"Our bigs will sag into the paint on Cwebb Pnrís to try and get him to shoot mid-range jumpers, which he has shown that he can easily be forced into during his career. The lack of spacing in the Rochester starting lineup gives their bigs some trouble. They can all make plays, but can they hit their shots?"

Just got home from a work shift. I'll address some of these quickly:

I'll use Webber's Sacramento #s for this one.

From 10-16 feet in the 5 years he spent on the Kings, Webber shot 39.8% from the field. From 16+ feet, 2-pointers, Webber shot 41.3% from the field in Sacramento.

In comparison, the NBA average for this season from those distances was 40% from 10-16 and 39.5% from 16+ feet. Add in the fact that Webber is a PF and those numbers clearly show he's an effective mid-range shooter historically. Add in the fact that you have a guy as dominant as Shaq clogging the paint, Webber will get plenty of open looks at a much lower usage rate than he would have had in his career, which would lead to more efficient shooting.

Cwebb shot hot garbage in the playoffs in his prime.

FG%: 38.8, 42.7, 38.8, 50.2, 49.6, 45.2
10-16 ft (mid-range): 29.2, 28.0, 38.5, 31.3

those are awful shooting #'s for a big. If you wanna let Cwebb shoot, we'll gladly take it over shaq touches. and the starting guards for you shot low 30's in 3pt%.


Bowen containing Pierce is another match-up we feel quite comfortable in as well. Pierce will get his, but Bowen will make it tough. Using a 3 year sample size from 2003-2005 (assuming that this is close to the peak for both players), Bowen made Pierce's life incredibly difficult in match-ups. In an 8 game sample size between the two, Pierce shot around 38.5% from the field, which is incredibly inefficient, with Bowen on him the majority of the time.
3 year sample size? that's also cherry picking #s? what about the other years? Pierce averaged 24 ppg on almost 46% shooting. That's pretty good against a lock-down defender.


You say floor spacing is an issue, but I don't buy it. Bowen still had years where he would shoot it over 40% from three. I have already mentioned about how Webber was very efficient for his position at mid-range jump shots. Dale Ellis who will receive major minutes off the bench, is one of the better shooters in NBA history. And whenever you are playing with someone who is such a demanding offensive presence like Shaq, you'll get loads of open looks outside, which almost all of our guys are capable of hitting, especially Hardaway and McGrady. I don't know how you can critique our floor spacing as a possible issue, when Brampton's is arguably a huge question mark. Neither Fraizer nor Thompson got to show their abilities from behind the arc during their careers.
I said it's an issue for your lineup. The guard fit is awkward and none of those guys are spot-up shooters or good 3pt shooters for that matter. Bowen is good but shoots sparingly. He's easy to keep track of. Webber was trash as a shooter in the playoffs. We won't be doubling shaq much at all since we won't need to.

My backcourt doesn't have 3pt gunners but I have some on my bench like you do. Both guys are effective mid-range shooters though (especially Thompson, it's what he's known for other than dunking). Pierce is a great shooter and Bosh is as well. A big-man shooter is more essential as it takes one of yours away from the paint.

The_Jamal
05-28-2015, 04:11 PM
Rochestor is originally my favorite team, but Brampton growing on me a bit. Really liking the Walt-Pierce synergy and Bosh-Wilt synergy. There's a lot of PnR opportunities here with them and the squad really doesn't have any question marks to it. Checks all the boxes.

That said, Rochester might just be too talented for it to matter.

Corey
05-29-2015, 12:47 PM
I think Brampton would win in 6, honestly.

Shammyguy3
05-29-2015, 07:50 PM
Rochester advances

KnicksorBust
05-29-2015, 09:33 PM
Brampton would have been a much better opp for Jerusalem. Redrum should win the chip with relative easy

Killerjug
05-29-2015, 11:26 PM
Lol okay man

Sadds The Gr8
05-30-2015, 12:51 AM
I figured the name value of Penny-Tmac-Cwebb-Shaq would knock me off. congrats to kj

Sadds The Gr8
05-30-2015, 12:51 AM
Brampton would have been a much better opp for Jerusalem. Redrum should win the chip with relative easy

me and redrum would've argued for hrs lol

Shammyguy3
05-30-2015, 01:23 AM
me and redrum would've argued for hrs lol

Michael Cooper >


:)

Sadds The Gr8
05-30-2015, 01:42 AM
Michael Cooper >


:)
We put him in straps

Shammyguy3
05-30-2015, 12:46 PM
We put him in straps

nobody can contain him!