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View Full Version : If the Cavaliers beat the Warriors in the finals...



lol, please
05-26-2015, 04:33 PM
Would it be enough for you to rank Lebron above Kobe in the all time list? If not, what else must he do? Kobe has more rings per finals attempt despite playing second fiddle to SHAQ and despite being not as efficient as lebron.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
05-26-2015, 04:35 PM
I already have LeBron ahead of Kobe but maybe we should let the CF's play out first before we start doing these hypotheticals ;)

ewing
05-26-2015, 04:40 PM
i think you have to see the games first. If you had Kobe ahead of him and the Cavs won after Curry got hurt and with Ivring netting 40 a night and Bron not having much a series, would it matter? Sure it would. Let the games be played, maybe actually reference what happened on the court. IDK,

InRoseWeTrust
05-26-2015, 04:41 PM
Maybe we should make 5 more "if, then" threads about LeBron. Good lord.

lol, please
05-26-2015, 04:45 PM
i think you have to see the games first. If you had Kobe ahead of him and the Cavs won after Curry got hurt and with Ivring netting 40 a night and Bron not having much a series, would it matter? Sure it would. Let the games be played, maybe actually reference what happened on the court. IDK,
You make a good point, obviously if Curry got injured and Kyrie outperformed Lebron it would be significant.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 04:46 PM
I already have LeBron ahead of Kobe but maybe we should let the CF's play out first before we start doing these hypotheticals ;)

Pretty much this, he already is higher to me.

We won't know how impressive (or unimpressive) it is until we see how he actually plays. People on this site are way to caught up with possible team results compared to a players actual impact. I can't really see them beating gs anyways though so it's probably a moot point.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 04:51 PM
Already got him above, but if he beats the Warriors and wins Finals MVP the Kobe/LeBron argument is completely done. That vaults LeBron to top 5 talk whereas Kobe is around 8-10 and his legacy is set.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 05:10 PM
Lebron one of the best players ever...Kobe at best 4th best Laker all time...he is already better

D-Leethal
05-26-2015, 05:18 PM
I'd probably rank LeBron above Kobe as it is but I think it's safe to say this would solidify it. This is coming from someone who thinks LeBron is a mental softee who bites his nails like a 16 year old who hasn't hit puberty yet and craves attention like he was cast next to Lindsay Lohan in mean girls. But fair is fair, and he'd done earn it.

bucketss
05-26-2015, 05:27 PM
Already had him ranked higher (explain)

Pakman
05-26-2015, 05:32 PM
And that's why I love kobe.

Hotone1401
05-26-2015, 05:35 PM
There should be no question Lebron will enhance his status all-time by winning another title despite the fact that he's had another cake walk to the finals through the East.

The real question that should be answered is whether Lebron could hurt his legacy by losing another finals with the cake walk he's had.

yungincome
05-26-2015, 05:38 PM
Maybe we should make 5 more "if, then" threads about LeBron. Good lord.

Word the eff up! This is ridiculous..

Minimal
05-26-2015, 06:05 PM
5 votes for already have him
4 votes for No
0 votes for Yes

LeBron haters at their finest.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 06:34 PM
No.

Would pass Bird tho.

JNA17
05-26-2015, 06:36 PM
The OP's username fits this thread in a nutshell.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 06:46 PM
There should be no question Lebron will enhance his status all-time by winning another title despite the fact that he's had another cake walk to the finals through the East.

The real question that should be answered is whether Lebron could hurt his legacy by losing another finals with the cake walk he's had.

That's a good hypothetical I would actually like to see. Well I already know the answer, but I'd like to see the rationale just for fun.

Teeboy1487
05-26-2015, 06:55 PM
I already rank Lebron as a better player because of his all around ability and efficiency. It doesn't take anything away from Kobe for me. He is one of the best. I don't care about their rankings as players. I only care about the lakers winning. I want them to win again.

Supreme LA
05-26-2015, 07:23 PM
5 votes for already have him
4 votes for No
0 votes for Yes

LeBron haters at their finest.

6 votes for no and 6 votes for already ahead of Kobe.

It really just shows the amount of bias for and against Kobe on PSD. There is no objectivity on PSD no matter how many people claim to be.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2015, 07:35 PM
James needs to win against the underdog warriors team first. If a first time finals team with a rookie coach can take down James then he will never pass Kobe. I can see curry ripping away the best player tag away from James after these finals tho.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 07:36 PM
That's a good hypothetical I would actually like to see. Well I already know the answer, but I'd like to see the rationale just for fun.

So you think it does negatively impact his legacy? So the only way LeBron can stop his legacy from taking a hit is by winning a title every year because he plays in the East?

2nd best isn't good enough and it's actually a knock on him?

Does that mean if he gets knocked out before the Finals it's actually better than another Finals loss?

Supreme LA
05-26-2015, 07:41 PM
James needs to win against the underdog warriors team first. If a first time finals team with a rookie coach can take down James then he will never pass Kobe. I can see curry ripping away the best player tag away from James after these finals tho.

I agree. I don't really think the Warriors are the favorites heading into the Finals against the Cavs. Matchup wise, Kyrie is going to give Curry as many problems as Curry does to him and the W's have no answer for James. I also think the both teams are very deep with their rotation even with Love out.

If anything, Lebron and the Cavs should be fully prepared considering they've pretty much had a cake walk through the East. If Lebron loses to the Warriors in the Finals it should definitely take a hit on his legacy.

Supreme LA
05-26-2015, 07:46 PM
So you think it does negatively impact his legacy? So the only way LeBron can stop his legacy from taking a hit is by winning a title every year because he plays in the East?

2nd best isn't good enough and it's actually a knock on him?

Does that mean if he gets knocked out before the Finals it's actually better than another Finals loss?

I think it will negatively impact him no matter what round he loses. The man has stacked his team and paved an easy path to the Finals throughout the last 5 years to give him the easiest opportunity to win a ring. If he fails to do so, he should certainly take a hit on his legacy if he fails to.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 07:49 PM
I love public polls.

Of the 7 votes for 'no', 5 are Lakers fans, 1 is the main LeBron hater/troll and the other is Flash (which surprises me).

Of the 8 votes for 'already ranked him above' you have Knicks, Heat, Raptors, Pistons and Bulls fans.

Always speaks volumes to me.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 07:51 PM
I think it will negatively impact him no matter what round he loses. The man has stacked his team and paved an easy path to the Finals throughout the last 5 years to give him the easiest opportunity to win a ring. If he fails to do so, he should certainly take a hit on his legacy if he fails to.

So there's no middle ground then. He either wins the next 4/5 titles and becomes 1B to MJ's 1A or his legacy takes a hit every year he doesn't win because he plays in the east and he ends up falling out of the top 15 players ever.

Glad we cleared that up.

Supreme LA
05-26-2015, 08:35 PM
So there's no middle ground then. He either wins the next 4/5 titles and becomes 1B to MJ's 1A or his legacy takes a hit every year he doesn't win because he plays in the east and he ends up falling out of the top 15 players ever.

Glad we cleared that up.

Or he simply takes a hit by not progressing up the ladder? No one is saying he should be moved down or out of the top 15. It's not so black and white like you suggest and Lebron is not at the tail end of his career where his status has already been cemented. He's certainly established himself in the top 10 all-time but what he does from here on out can alter the position in which most people place him.

You certainly can't make the argument that Lebron has reached a place where he can't be knocked down a notch or two depending on how the final stages of his career pans out.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 08:37 PM
I think it will negatively impact him no matter what round he loses. The man has stacked his team and paved an easy path to the Finals throughout the last 5 years to give him the easiest opportunity to win a ring. If he fails to do so, he should certainly take a hit on his legacy if he fails to.

So there's no middle ground then. He either wins the next 4/5 titles and becomes 1B to MJ's 1A or his legacy takes a hit every year he doesn't win because he plays in the east and he ends up falling out of the top 15 players ever.

Glad we cleared that up.

Since when did we stop holding superstars accountable for Finals losses? I don't see Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley in anybody's top 10. And they all lost to a superior team without the benefit of jumping teams and taking the easiest path to the Finals to do so. But you still rank them lower than other greats because of their Finals losses, despite having great all time stats.

Why should Lebron be treated any differently, especially since his team hopping has guaranteed he's a odds on favorite every year?

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 11:07 PM
Since when did we stop holding superstars accountable for Finals losses? I don't see Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley in anybody's top 10. And they all lost to a superior team without the benefit of jumping teams and taking the easiest path to the Finals to do so. But you still rank them lower than other greats because of their Finals losses, despite having great all time stats.

Why should Lebron be treated any differently, especially since his team hopping has guaranteed he's a odds on favorite every year?

Yeah glad Barkley retired a Sixer, Ewing a Knick, and Malone a Jazz, and they never went elsewhere to try and get a ring.

The funny one is when you hear things like championship losses being a negative. Like when a guy wins 2 rings in his only two finals, and another guy wins 2 rings but loses two other finals. Somehow some people believe that finishing a year with 10 years is more impressive than winning a conference championship.

ManRam
05-26-2015, 11:10 PM
It would be by far his most impressive feat to date.

Not sure I can reduce an all time legacy shift to one single event like this...so I'll abstain from voting. It's not that simple.

bucketss
05-26-2015, 11:15 PM
so now people are saying cavs favorites in the finals :laugh2: like i said, a lot of people will go in hiding if cavs win.

jerellh528
05-26-2015, 11:18 PM
It would be by far his most impressive feat to date.

Not sure I can reduce an all time legacy shift to one single event like this...so I'll abstain from voting. It's not that simple.

Lots of people don't consider this a feat, but I think staying injury free for so long is impressive in itself. He's logged tons of mins at a high level and somehow managed to stay healthy. It's a testament to his dedication on his body and work ethic

mightybosstone
05-26-2015, 11:22 PM
The poll results are so telling. Pretty much if you're a Lebron fan or a Lebron hater, you've already made up your mind on the guy. And only some ridiculous feats or failures would change our minds one way or the other. I thought there might be SOME grey area here, but apparently there's not. Not even winning a third title with an inferior team against a superior team without HCA would sway the minds of Lebron haters.

Barring Lebron doing something ridiculous like winning six championships, I don't think Kobe fan will ever rank Lebron higher. And that's just a little sad to me. :shrug:

Cal827
05-26-2015, 11:24 PM
I think that if Lebron can win it with a strong series, that it would put Lebron over Kobe definitively. Bryant's teams have been usually the heavy favorite in the finals. I don't think anybody (including maybe Jordan), would be able to catapult this Cavs team over a near 70 wins Warriors team :laugh2:

If Lebron does it, it might close one question, but re-open another lol

jerellh528
05-26-2015, 11:29 PM
The poll results are so telling. Pretty much if you're a Lebron fan or a Lebron hater, you've already made up your mind on the guy. And only some ridiculous feats or failures would change our minds one way or the other. I thought there might be SOME grey area here, but apparently there's not. Not even winning a third title with an inferior team against a superior team without HCA would sway the minds of Lebron haters.

Barring Lebron doing something ridiculous like winning six championships, I don't think Kobe fan will ever rank Lebron higher. And that's just a little sad to me. :shrug:

Why does where people that you don't care about and don't care about you, affect your psyche so much? People have been ranking Lebron ahead of Kobe for a couple years now, I've never been "sad" about it. Plus maybe they're thinking it'll take more than a series to pass Kobe? There's a lot of variables to an individual's ranking and this question n these answers are black n white. Plus you call them haters which outs your bias, what if they just aren't lovers of his?

mightybosstone
05-26-2015, 11:32 PM
Since when did we stop holding superstars accountable for Finals losses? I don't see Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley in anybody's top 10. And they all lost to a superior team without the benefit of jumping teams and taking the easiest path to the Finals to do so. But you still rank them lower than other greats because of their Finals losses, despite having great all time stats.

Why should Lebron be treated any differently, especially since his team hopping has guaranteed he's a odds on favorite every year?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's completely ridiculous that Lebron's legacy should be damaged MORE by making it all the way to the Finals and losing than if he got knocked off in the first round or didn't win at all. That logic is mind-numbingly stupid. If a player leads a team to the Finals six times in his career as the No. 1 guy, give that player his due because that's a spectacular accomplishment. As long as that player ends up with one or two rings and has the production to back it up, he's proved himself enough in the postseason to deserve a seat among the all-time greats.

Any time someone brings up Lebron's Finals record, I like them to seriously, SERIOUSLY take a look at the Finals record of Wilt Chamberlain. If Lebron were to lose in the Finals this season, he'd be 2-4 in the Finals. You know who else has that same record? Wilt. And he played in an era with far fewer teams. And he probably wasn't even the best players on that 72 Lakers championship squad. Yet fans (especially Lakers fans) completely overlook that when they rank Wilt among the three or four greatest players of all-time.

If Wilt gets the benefit of the doubt, why can't Lebron?

mightybosstone
05-26-2015, 11:45 PM
Why does where people that you don't care about and don't care about you, affect your psyche so much? People have been ranking Lebron ahead of Kobe for a couple years now, I've never been "sad" about it. Plus maybe they're thinking it'll take more than a series to pass Kobe? There's a lot of variables to an individual's ranking and this question n these answers are black n white. Plus you call them haters which outs your bias, what if they just aren't lovers of his?

It doesn't affect my psyche at all actually. I just think it's a little sad how biased some fans are against the guy and how much homerism I see for Kobe from Lakers fans. I mean, I get it. There are some Rockets players I've loved over the years and some arguments I've probably been a tad biased on because of it. Like I probably will never rank Shaq ahead of Hakeem. But in my defense, I have a legitimate case for Hakeem over Shaq based on overall skill, defense and the 95 Finals. What legitimate argument does Kobe fan have over Lebron fan at this point other than "Ringgzzzzzz!!!!!?" I just don't see one. Even if I'm generous and say they're a wash defensively, Lebron is a superior player in literally every other area outside of mid-range shooting and the free throw line.

Like I said, I understand the homer tendencies of Kobe fan. You love your guy and have a hard time excepting that his biggest rival is better. But at some point, you have to take an objective look at the situation and ask yourself what the basis for your argument is. You guys just really don't have much of a leg to stand on anymore.

Vee-Rex
05-26-2015, 11:50 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's completely ridiculous that Lebron's legacy should be damaged MORE by making it all the way to the Finals and losing than if he got knocked off in the first round or didn't win at all. That logic is mind-numbingly stupid. If a player leads a team to the Finals six times in his career as the No. 1 guy, give that player his due because that's a spectacular accomplishment. As long as that player ends up with one or two rings and has the production to back it up, he's proved himself enough in the postseason to deserve a seat among the all-time greats.

Any time someone brings up Lebron's Finals record, I like them to seriously, SERIOUSLY take a look at the Finals record of Wilt Chamberlain. If Lebron were to lose in the Finals this season, he'd be 2-4 in the Finals. You know who else has that same record? Wilt. And he played in an era with far fewer teams. And he probably wasn't even the best players on that 72 Lakers championship squad. Yet fans (especially Lakers fans) completely overlook that when they rank Wilt among the three or four greatest players of all-time.

If Wilt gets the benefit of the doubt, why can't Lebron?

Well said.

Don't think you'll get a good counter-point to that, man. You're arguing against hate, not debate (seewutididthar!).

SportsFanatic10
05-27-2015, 12:08 AM
I think it will negatively impact him no matter what round he loses. The man has stacked his team and paved an easy path to the Finals throughout the last 5 years to give him the easiest opportunity to win a ring. If he fails to do so, he should certainly take a hit on his legacy if he fails to.

You shouldn't even both posting in Lebron threads since no one can take you seriously with a sig like that. As a Kobe/Laker fan you choose a sig to diss James instead of something about your own favorite team or players. It really shows a bias right there before even reading what you have to say.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 12:12 AM
It doesn't affect my psyche at all actually. I just think it's a little sad how biased some fans are against the guy and how much homerism I see for Kobe from Lakers fans. I mean, I get it. There are some Rockets players I've loved over the years and some arguments I've probably been a tad biased on because of it. Like I probably will never rank Shaq ahead of Hakeem. But in my defense, I have a legitimate case for Hakeem over Shaq based on overall skill, defense and the 95 Finals. What legitimate argument does Kobe fan have over Lebron fan at this point other than "Ringgzzzzzz!!!!!?" I just don't see one. Even if I'm generous and say they're a wash defensively, Lebron is a superior player in literally every other area outside of mid-range shooting and the free throw line.

Like I said, I understand the homer tendencies of Kobe fan. You love your guy and have a hard time excepting that his biggest rival is better. But at some point, you have to take an objective look at the situation and ask yourself what the basis for your argument is. You guys just really don't have much of a leg to stand on anymore.

Lebron was never Kobe's biggest rival. They've never even met in the post season. I don't care about Lebron much at all, I just don't like him because of his leboner fan base that thinks he can do no wrong. And what you think or how others rank is irrelevant to how I rank my guys. you people are so obsessed with pushing Lebron down everyones throats. Kobe has been a villain to everyone's team for so long, and he's so hated that people have their "white knight" in Lebron to parade around as his superior finally. To me it feels like Most people pushing Lebron probably aren't even huge fans of his, just haters of Kobe deep down. They can't even mention Lebron without being insecure and mentioning Kobe. To me it's like those pot heads that counter every argument against it by brining up alcohol.

SportsFanatic10
05-27-2015, 12:16 AM
As for the question I think it's pretty even right now. At the rate Lebron is going he'll clearly pass Kobe almost no matter what though before it's all said and done. A couple more seasons just to close the longevity gap should definitively do it regardless of these finals. But if he were to beat this Golden State team while having a strong performance then I'd say it's time to officially move him up. Providing the Warriors avoid suffering any major injuries.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:25 AM
Lebron was never Kobe's biggest rival. They've never even met in the post season. I don't care about Lebron much at all, I just don't like him because of his leboner fan base that thinks he can do no wrong. And what you think or how others rank is irrelevant to how I rank my guys. you people are so obsessed with pushing Lebron down everyones throats. Kobe has been a villain to everyone's team for so long, and he's so hated that people have their "white knight" in Lebron to parade around as his superior finally. To me it feels like Most people pushing Lebron probably aren't even huge fans of his, just haters of Kobe deep down. They can't even mention Lebron without being insecure and mentioning Kobe. To me it's like those pot heads that counter every argument against it by brining up alcohol.

Jerell, you need to read what your own Kobe fans say before you bring up what "LeBoners" are saying. More often than not, your trolling pal Illusionist is out there stirring trouble. If you cannot see the stupidity in his posts and the nonsensical biased arguments he makes, then you clearly support it because you're a LeBron hater. You make logical posts when it doesn't concern Bron but the moment Bron is mentioned, many of you guys turn into complete high school dropouts. Like really, how difficult is it to understand that one player spent more than half his career playing with a roster that never produced a legitimate player other than himself whereas one began his career playing for a top 10 player and the most dominating player in NBA history (on many accounts, there are a huge amount of people who would take a prime Shaq> prime Jordan). So there has to be context in every post and quite frankly, a bunch of people here lack that fundamental. I'm not saying there aren't any crazy LeBron fans out there but the distribution of it doesn't compare to those of Kobe's.

Saddletramp
05-27-2015, 12:28 AM
Golden State will be the underdog if this series happens? lo****ingl

Supreme LA
05-27-2015, 04:15 AM
So I'm sort of confused. Is it pretty much decided among PSD that the Warriors are the favorites? If they are, I don't consider it to be by much. I can easily see the Cavs winning the series as well for the simple fact that the W's have no answer for LBJ. Yes, Curry has been hot but I think Kyrie will go right back at him.

I also see both benches contributing equally throughout the series. Tristan Thompson will be just as big of a factor on the boards as Green will be on defense. The Cavs are deeper in my opinion than the Warriors and I actually have them winning this series. Am i the only one who thinks this?

Supreme LA
05-27-2015, 04:17 AM
You shouldn't even both posting in Lebron threads since no one can take you seriously with a sig like that. As a Kobe/Laker fan you choose a sig to diss James instead of something about your own favorite team or players. It really shows a bias right there before even reading what you have to say.

It's an old sig from the days when Lebron was an award winning actress. I just haven't had time to change it because I only access PSD through my phone.

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 04:55 AM
So I'm sort of confused. Is it pretty much decided among PSD that the Warriors are the favorites? If they are, I don't consider it to be by much. I can easily see the Cavs winning the series as well for the simple fact that the W's have no answer for LBJ. Yes, Curry has been hot but I think Kyrie will go right back at him.

I also see both benches contributing equally throughout the series. Tristan Thompson will be just as big of a factor on the boards as Green will be on defense. The Cavs are deeper in my opinion than the Warriors and I actually have them winning this series. Am i the only one who thinks this?

Wow... I think Lebron will need to play out of his mind to win this. We talk bench, but look how diluted that has become. Tristan is now a starter not a bench player. Delladova (if Kyrie plays), JR Smith, and James Jones are the Cavs bench rotation. JR and two guys who were 4 point a game players during the season, and no bigs. Marion I think played a few minutes a game, but I was surprised at how small they went, especially against the Bulls. I guess you can't argue the results...

I just don't feel comfortable with Cleveland right now, with a healthy team and how they were finishing the year, and the experience of some of the guys on that team including their star in the post-season, sure, but really, right now, they have a lot of holes.

How they played against the Hawks has me hoping it will be a good series, but I truly wouldn't be surprised if they get swept.

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 05:33 AM
Would it be enough for you to rank Lebron above Kobe in the all time list? If not, what else must he do? Kobe has more rings per finals attempt despite playing second fiddle to SHAQ and despite being as efficient as lebron.

I said this in the other thread but this ring would put him clearly ahead of Shaq and Bird. I would still confidently put him behind Tim Duncan and a full level below the Magic-KAJ-MJ group. Kobe would be debatable. My gut says I would still rank Kobe higher but really beating the Warriors with a vastly inferior team would be incredibly impressive. It could put him top 5 all-time.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 07:07 AM
I said this in the other thread but this ring would put him clearly ahead of Shaq and Bird. I would still confidently put him behind Tim Duncan and a full level below the Magic-KAJ-MJ group. Kobe would be debatable. My gut says I would still rank Kobe higher but really beating the Warriors with a vastly inferior team would be incredibly impressive. It could put him top 5 all-time.
Refresh my memory. Why do you rank Kobe higher than Lebron again? You're one of the few non Lakers fans who consistently does, but I can never remember why.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 09:23 AM
Would it be enough for you to rank Lebron above Kobe in the all time list? If not, what else must he do? Kobe has more rings per finals attempt despite playing second fiddle to SHAQ and despite being as efficient as lebron.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 09:32 AM
Lebron was never Kobe's biggest rival. They've never even met in the post season. I don't care about Lebron much at all, I just don't like him because of his leboner fan base that thinks he can do no wrong. And what you think or how others rank is irrelevant to how I rank my guys. you people are so obsessed with pushing Lebron down everyones throats. Kobe has been a villain to everyone's team for so long, and he's so hated that people have their "white knight" in Lebron to parade around as his superior finally. To me it feels like Most people pushing Lebron probably aren't even huge fans of his, just haters of Kobe deep down. They can't even mention Lebron without being insecure and mentioning Kobe. To me it's like those pot heads that counter every argument against it by brining up alcohol.

My reply is essentially an entire post stating that Kobe fan has no real basketball argument to rank Kobe ahead of Lebron, and you reply with a paragraph without a single basketball argument whatsoever. You're basically proving my point for me.

Look, forget all the haters and biases and villains and off-court stuff and all the other crap that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball. Look at these two players, how they played the game, how they produced, how they dominated within their respective eras and what their strengths and weaknesses were on the court. Which of these basketball players is/was the better player and why?

I don't care about any of the other stuff. It's completely irrelevant. I want to know why Kobe Bryant was a better basketball player than Lebron James. And if the number of titles he has is the only real justification for that, I'm sorry, but that's a weak argument.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 09:34 AM
Lebron was never Kobe's biggest rival. They've never even met in the post season. I don't care about Lebron much at all, I just don't like him because of his leboner fan base that thinks he can do no wrong. And what you think or how others rank is irrelevant to how I rank my guys. you people are so obsessed with pushing Lebron down everyones throats. Kobe has been a villain to everyone's team for so long, and he's so hated that people have their "white knight" in Lebron to parade around as his superior finally. To me it feels like Most people pushing Lebron probably aren't even huge fans of his, just haters of Kobe deep down. They can't even mention Lebron without being insecure and mentioning Kobe. To me it's like those pot heads that counter every argument against it by brining up alcohol.

"Why does where people that you don't care about and don't care about you, affect your psyche so much?"

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 09:42 AM
So I'm sort of confused. Is it pretty much decided among PSD that the Warriors are the favorites? If they are, I don't consider it to be by much. I can easily see the Cavs winning the series as well for the simple fact that the W's have no answer for LBJ. Yes, Curry has been hot but I think Kyrie will go right back at him.

I also see both benches contributing equally throughout the series. Tristan Thompson will be just as big of a factor on the boards as Green will be on defense. The Cavs are deeper in my opinion than the Warriors and I actually have them winning this series. Am i the only one who thinks this?

That goes for pretty much every team. That is the universal truth about the NBA. He's one of a kind by far.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 09:46 AM
And, for the record, I absolutely had Kobe over Lebron a couple of years ago, even after Lebron had won his title. But at that time, Kobe was still on an unprecedented streak of incredibly consistent production and performance. Kobe had 14 consecutive years of at least 22/4/5 or better while never missing more than 16 games in a season and cracking the All-NBA teams all 14 seasons. But Lebron has now had 11 consecutive years of at least 25/6/6 while missing more than 10 games only once in his career (this season) with All-NBA selections all 11 seasons, including nine All-NBA first teams.

I'll gladly take Lebron's 14 seasons over Kobe's 11, and we've passed the point where Kobe's ridiculously consistent production totally dwarfs Lebron's. Plus, Kobe is essentially done and Lebron is not. Lebron just turned 30. He'll probably surpass Kobe in every relevant all-time stat there is. Hell, he's probably going to crack the top 15 in all-time points before he even turns 31.

lol, please
05-27-2015, 01:46 PM
That goes for pretty much every team. That is the universal truth about the NBA. He's one of a kind by far.

If you look back at the last several seasons the Warriors were worse than this year and always played the Heat tough and all were either wins or close losses when Lebron was on that team (One of the reasons I always hoped we would play them in the finals but we never made it that far til now.) I don't know why people think he would walk through our team, at this point Green and Bogut together would all but shut him down, and unlike the Heat team he left, there will be no second option to go to. Warriors in 4.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 01:53 PM
If you look back at the last several seasons the Warriors were worse than this year and always played the Heat tough and all were either wins or close losses when Lebron was on that team (One of the reasons I always hoped we would play them in the finals but we never made it that far til now.) I don't know why people think he would walk through our team, at this point Green and Bogut together would all but shut him down, and unlike the Heat team he left, there will be no second option to go to. Warriors in 4.

Double post

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 01:55 PM
If you look back at the last several seasons the Warriors were worse than this year and always played the Heat tough and all were either wins or close losses when Lebron was on that team (One of the reasons I always hoped we would play them in the finals but we never made it that far til now.) I don't know why people think he would walk through our team, at this point Green and Bogut together would all but shut him down, and unlike the Heat team he left, there will be no second option to go to. Warriors in 4.

Lebron has lit your team up basically every time they play. This year he dropped 42 on like 25 shots. Shump will shut down Curry before anyone on the Dubs even dreams about shutting down Bron. Thats why I want GS to win so bad because the Cavs are a matchup nightmare for them. Cavs are bigger, stronger and faster than GS. Its going to show. And you will have no answer for Bron at all.

lol, please
05-27-2015, 01:56 PM
Hebron has lit your team up basically every time they play. This year he dropped 42 on like 25 shots. Shump will shut down Curry before anyone on the Dubs even dreams about shutting down Bron.
Westbrook lit up teams in games they lost this season, the results are what matter here. Not sure what your point is, lol. Shump won't be shutting down anyone, much less Curry. Green will treat lebron like a child.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 01:58 PM
Westbrook lit up teams in games they lost this season, the results are what matter here. Not sure what your point is, lol. Shump won't be shutting down anyone, much less Curry. Green will treat lebron like a child.

Cavs didn't loose though. Cavs won, and won pretty easily I may add. And shump shut Curry down. 5/17 i think.

koreancabbage
05-27-2015, 02:01 PM
3 Finals MVP vs 2 Finals MVP would be the main headliner, amongst the other gaudy numbers Lebron has

its a no doubter if the Cavs win.

as of right now, its definitely debatable - could go either way.

I don't think Lebron gets it this year as the Warriors have the better team and much deeper. But playing this "IF" question, and if Lebron does win, its a def "Yes".

SportsFanatic10
05-27-2015, 02:44 PM
Cavs didn't loose though. Cavs won, and won pretty easily I may add. And shump shut Curry down. 5/17 i think.

Regular season games aren't usually a good indicator when predicting the playoffs. You underestimate the Warriors, I don't see the Cavs beating them.

sammyvine
05-27-2015, 03:11 PM
My reply is essentially an entire post stating that Kobe fan has no real basketball argument to rank Kobe ahead of Lebron, and you reply with a paragraph without a single basketball argument whatsoever. You're basically proving my point for me.

Look, forget all the haters and biases and villains and off-court stuff and all the other crap that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball. Look at these two players, how they played the game, how they produced, how they dominated within their respective eras and what their strengths and weaknesses were on the court. Which of these basketball players is/was the better player and why?

I don't care about any of the other stuff. It's completely irrelevant. I want to know why Kobe Bryant was a better basketball player than Lebron James. And if the number of titles he has is the only real justification for that, I'm sorry, but that's a weak argument.

its all opinions man jeez
Many pundits will take Kobe over Lebron. MJ and Durant even said it.
I think Lebron is a better player and by quiet a bit but its not that emotional lol

KnicksorBust
05-27-2015, 03:33 PM
Refresh my memory. Why do you rank Kobe higher than Lebron again? You're one of the few non Lakers fans who consistently does, but I can never remember why.

I value longevity and post-season success higher than most. I could be more specific if necessary but I think that sums up my perspective pretty quickly and honestly.

lol, please
05-27-2015, 03:43 PM
I value longevity and post-season success higher than most. I could be more specific if necessary but I think that sums up my perspective pretty quickly and honestly.
I do as well. I agree that winning a championship is a team effort but across every sport I watch, to be truly great you have to be valuable enough in clutch situations and in the post season because all teams collectively agree the championship is the ultimate goal, we can't just say that then turn around and say "well, he had no supporting cast it's not his fault." While it's true that the supporting cast matters, what's most important is the end result and great players overcome obstacles like weaker rosters and injuries. I can care less if you lead the league in PER if you disappear in the playoffs or simply can't get it done.

The day you hear a player said he will trade a ring for a higher WAR, VORP, QBR, or PER, I might be inclined to reconsider my methods of evaluation of greatness.

The other side of that is that we also can't just write off a player who has won titles without being a first option. Players like Kobe and Russell catch flak, but why? Just because you weren't the #1 option doesn't mean you didn't contribute.

Getting UGGLA
05-27-2015, 04:02 PM
He's an arrogant POS that shouldn't even be in the discussion. Jordan is light years ahead of everyone else anyway so who gives rats ***.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2015, 04:03 PM
Would it be enough for you to rank Lebron above Kobe in the all time list? If not, what else must he do? Kobe has more rings per finals attempt despite playing second fiddle to SHAQ and despite being as efficient as lebron.

big fricking rotfl

lol, please
05-27-2015, 04:06 PM
big fricking rotfl
That's the second time I see that part quoted lol, it was honestly a typo I meant to say less effficient, let me go fix it, it makes more sense that way when you read it anyway, I think it was the auto complete function of my cell phone.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2015, 04:09 PM
Since when did we stop holding superstars accountable for Finals losses? I don't see Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley in anybody's top 10. And they all lost to a superior team without the benefit of jumping teams and taking the easiest path to the Finals to do so. But you still rank them lower than other greats because of their Finals losses, despite having great all time stats.

Why should Lebron be treated any differently, especially since his team hopping has guaranteed he's a odds on favorite every year?

accountable. lol. "bad lebron, bad, bad, bad lebron!".

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 05:23 PM
Regular season games aren't usually a good indicator when predicting the playoffs. You underestimate the Warriors, I don't see the Cavs beating them.

True, but the Cavs are clicking on all cylinders right now, and are even better now than they were then. I'm extremely confident in the Cavs wrecking GS.

Hotone1401
05-27-2015, 05:27 PM
True, but the Cavs are clicking on all cylinders right now, and are even better now than they were then. I'm extremely confident in the Cavs wrecking GS.

Me as well. I just can't see the W's stopping the force that is Lebron.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 07:24 PM
Since when did we stop holding superstars accountable for Finals losses? I don't see Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley in anybody's top 10. And they all lost to a superior team without the benefit of jumping teams and taking the easiest path to the Finals to do so. But you still rank them lower than other greats because of their Finals losses, despite having great all time stats.

Why should Lebron be treated any differently, especially since his team hopping has guaranteed he's a odds on favorite every year?

Well then you have to keep it real all the way around. Jordan absolutely choked against the pistons more than once and couldn't get to the finals. Jordan got swept out of playoffs in the first round by the Celtics. If you want to hold it against Bron for loosing in the finals against an all-time great spurs team, then you need to be even harder on Mike for loosing to teams before the finals. Getting to the finals is better than 1st round illumination. If your gonna make excuses to why you don't hold them against Mike, then we can just play the excuse game all day with both. If you dont want to make excuses and keep the same set of rules for both players, then Jordan has even more failures at lower levels than Bron.

Goose17
05-27-2015, 07:25 PM
I already rate him above Kobe. But that's just me I guess. A player that makes his team great is more valuable than a great player. Kobe led just as well as LeBron has but he did in a very different way, he did it in more of Jordan way. LeBron has to be the most selfless megastar this game has seen in decades. That alone swings it for me. I just wonder how his numbers would have changed if he had been in a system with a heavier offense on ball movement, he's such a great isolation player his coaches seem to lean on it more than they would other "stars".

SportsFanatic10
05-27-2015, 11:30 PM
True, but the Cavs are clicking on all cylinders right now, and are even better now than they were then. I'm extremely confident in the Cavs wrecking GS.

We'll see, The Warriors are pretty dangerous too. And they currently aren't reduced by injuries.

lol, please
05-28-2015, 03:46 PM
True, but the Cavs are clicking on all cylinders right now, and are even better now than they were then. I'm extremely confident in the Cavs wrecking GS.

Is that so :laugh2:

koreancabbage
05-28-2015, 03:50 PM
Vegas odds have GS as Favorites winning game 1.

Jeffy25
05-28-2015, 04:18 PM
If the Cavs beat the Warriors, I think that's a pretty big accomplishment....I see GS as the favorites here. Will LeBron have the support he'll need to do it?

Jeffy25
05-28-2015, 04:26 PM
Since when did we stop holding superstars accountable for Finals losses? I don't see Ewing, Malone, Stockton, or Barkley in anybody's top 10. And they all lost to a superior team without the benefit of jumping teams and taking the easiest path to the Finals to do so.

For starters....I'm pretty certain each one of these guys ring chased at one point except for Stockton.

And why are superstars held accountable for a Finals loss? Is it their fault or something? What if they happen to run up against another superstar? What if they didn't have the support to win it? Why do you ignore loses before the Finals?


The top 10 lists that I have seen, include plenty of guys that have Finals loses.


But you still rank them lower than other greats because of their Finals losses, despite having great all time stats.
I ignore championships completely, and I have those guys outside the top 10. It has nothing to do with their Finals loses.

Captain Moroni
05-28-2015, 04:37 PM
Absolutely. If LeBron can win the ring with no KLove, a hobbled Kyrie and knicks cast offs Shump, JR, and Mozzy, it might go down as the greatest superstar player finals EVER. This is
Kobe and MJ lovers worst nightmare.

zn23
05-28-2015, 08:26 PM
I already rank him ahead of Kobe and that's not going to change because of the Finals, win or lose.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2015, 08:50 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's completely ridiculous that Lebron's legacy should be damaged MORE by making it all the way to the Finals and losing than if he got knocked off in the first round or didn't win at all. That logic is mind-numbingly stupid. If a player leads a team to the Finals six times in his career as the No. 1 guy, give that player his due because that's a spectacular accomplishment. As long as that player ends up with one or two rings and has the production to back it up, he's proved himself enough in the postseason to deserve a seat among the all-time greats.

Any time someone brings up Lebron's Finals record, I like them to seriously, SERIOUSLY take a look at the Finals record of Wilt Chamberlain. If Lebron were to lose in the Finals this season, he'd be 2-4 in the Finals. You know who else has that same record? Wilt. And he played in an era with far fewer teams. And he probably wasn't even the best players on that 72 Lakers championship squad. Yet fans (especially Lakers fans) completely overlook that when they rank Wilt among the three or four greatest players of all-time.

If Wilt gets the benefit of the doubt, why can't Lebron?
Wilt doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. In the all-time rankings, players like Jordan and Kareem, and Magic get raked higher. Wilt numbers are better than Kareems and Magics but they get the benefit of the doubt because titles and winning against good compitition. Wilt is punished for his finals record and not winning many championships by not being ranked at least one or two because his stats, skill, and accolades all say he should be. Same thing will happen to LeBron if he continues to lose against the one tough team he has to face in the playoffs every year. It's just the way it goes.

lol, please
05-28-2015, 09:45 PM
For starters....I'm pretty certain each one of these guys ring chased at one point except for Stockton.

And why are superstars held accountable for a Finals loss? Is it their fault or something? What if they happen to run up against another superstar? What if they didn't have the support to win it? Why do you ignore loses before the Finals?


The top 10 lists that I have seen, include plenty of guys that have Finals loses.


I ignore championships completely, and I have those guys outside the top 10. It has nothing to do with their Finals loses.
Why shouldn't they be? Being a superstar means you should be able to go above and beyond the average player/replacement player, carry more weight for the team, and be a difference maker. You also generally have more responsibility. You aren't suppssed to do it all alone, but you are supposed to lead a team to victory. The key word there is lead. Are leaders not held more accountable than the led?

ThaDubs
05-29-2015, 03:38 AM
He's been objectively better than Kobe for years

lol, please
05-29-2015, 03:47 AM
He's been objectively better than Kobe for years
Harden? Never.

vics
05-29-2015, 06:20 AM
He's already above Kobe. Simply the better player.

lol, please
06-12-2015, 10:50 PM
He's already above Kobe. Simply the better player.
Kobe has a greater legacy

bucketss
06-12-2015, 11:04 PM
Kobe has a greater legacy

whos the better individual player?

More-Than-Most
06-12-2015, 11:47 PM
5 votes for already have him
4 votes for No
0 votes for Yes

LeBron haters at their finest.

mostly laker or bulls fans.

More-Than-Most
06-12-2015, 11:48 PM
already have him ahead.... i have kobe like 8th all time and james right now at 7th.

Alan Shore
06-13-2015, 12:07 AM
He is not above him right now but he sure will if he wins this year. He'll be above anyone not named MJ if he wins this year imo.

ThePlayoffs
06-13-2015, 12:59 AM
Kobe has a greater legacy

I don't think you can say kobes better based on legacy. Lebron is a superior player.

naps
06-13-2015, 05:04 AM
LeBron is already higher on the list. Winning this series puts him in the Wilt -Duncan conversation. That is top 3/4. Only Jordan and Kareem would still be better without a question.

lol, please
06-14-2015, 11:56 PM
LeBron is already higher on the list. Winning this series puts him in the Wilt -Duncan conversation. That is top 3/4. Only Jordan and Kareem would still be better without a question.
Apparently many people still have Kobe higher