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Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 12:22 PM
5 straight Finals appearances, the last two with two different squads. Hasn't been done in the modern era of hoops, not even by Magics Showtime Lakers or Boston's dynasty. 1st player to do so with different teams in any era. Many will point to the east being pathetic as the reason but just like I don't believe in giving passes for L's I don't believe in taking away from great accomplishments.

In the grand basketball scheme of things how remarkable of a accomplishment is this?

flea
05-26-2015, 12:25 PM
Right up there with the early 90s Buffalo Bills run. I don't mean that as a slight.

KnicksorBust
05-26-2015, 12:27 PM
Leading a team to 5 straight finals appearances is something only a top 10 player of all-time could do.

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 12:29 PM
This is not a great accomplishment when you factor what the 60s Celtics accomplished

The need to suck off Lebron in this forum is beyond hilarious

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 12:30 PM
When there were 8 teams in the league? :laugh2:

WOwolfOL
05-26-2015, 12:33 PM
He's no Robert Horry

Vee-Rex
05-26-2015, 12:35 PM
This is not a great accomplishment when you factor what the 60s Celtics accomplished

The need to suck off Lebron in this forum is beyond hilarious

With the exception of like 2 posters, when exactly are people riding LeBron? Just curious.

Edit: And Tony Starks is not even close to being a LeBron nut-hugger.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 12:35 PM
He's one of the best 5 players in the history of the league, and likely top 3 when he's actually done. It's amazing yet not surprising.

koreancabbage
05-26-2015, 12:36 PM
This is not a great accomplishment when you factor what the 60s Celtics accomplished

The need to suck off Lebron in this forum is beyond hilarious

Jesus, go back sucking off kobe.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 12:38 PM
This is not a great accomplishment when you factor what the 60s Celtics accomplished

The need to suck off Lebron in this forum is beyond hilarious

With the exception of like 2 posters, when exactly are people riding LeBron? Just curious.

Edit: And Tony Starks is not even close to being a LeBron nut-hugger.

I was about to say damn I've been accused of being plenty of things but whoa!.....

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 12:40 PM
Jesus, go back sucking off kobe.

the text book comeback of the sycophants


but I will play ... please show me one post where I have EVER sucked off kobe...

Just one

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 12:43 PM
5 straight Finals appearances, the last two with two different squads. Hasn't been done in the modern era of hoops, not even by Magics Showtime Lakers or Boston's dynasty. 1st player to do so with different teams in any era. Many will point to the east being pathetic as the reason but just like I don't believe in giving passes for L's I don't believe in taking away from great accomplishments.

In the grand basketball scheme of things how remarkable of a accomplishment is this?

I think this is a pretty good accomplishment but also the context of the east needs to be considered too. He has definitely had the easier road in the east and last year especially got no fight from east teams.

With that said it is still pretty impressive. I think a couple series this year were close with the injuries, a couple series vs Boston (11,12) and the pacers (12,13) were all good series and he had some crazy performances to help his team.

Overall his play was great and it's a good accomplishment for his legacy but he wasn't challenged every round like the west generally has so that should be factored in.

nastynice
05-26-2015, 12:49 PM
Lebron = greatness, no doubt. But I'm sry, I just can't ignore how weak the east is. I actually was thinking this the other day, it just doesn't impress me. There are plenty of other things he does which DO impress me, this just ain't one. I think his first run tithe finals w Miami was very impressive, I think people underrate what he did that post season (cuz apparently if u don't win a ring, u suck), but outside of that it almost seem like u could replace his team with ANY top 6 seed from the west n they'd do the same thing.

U guys are really impressed by this?

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 12:53 PM
When there were 8 teams in the league? :laugh2:

so you want a qualifier for the Celts but not the fact that Lebron plays in the historically miserable east...

well thought out :rolleyes:

LAKERS4LIFE!!
05-26-2015, 12:55 PM
Jesus, go back sucking off kobe.

Vinylman hates Kobe haha

Anyways, it's a nice accomplishment but you have to look at context. The East is just really bad so not that impressive.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 12:58 PM
Lebron = greatness, no doubt. But I'm sry, I just can't ignore how weak the east is. I actually was thinking this the other day, it just doesn't impress me. There are plenty of other things he does which DO impress me, this just ain't one. I think his first run tithe finals w Miami was very impressive, I think people underrate what he did that post season (cuz apparently if u don't win a ring, u suck), but outside of that it almost seem like u could replace his team with ANY top 6 seed from the west n they'd do the same thing.

U guys are really impressed by this?

Like I said in my post I think there were some good series but overall I think you have a point on the east. Also I think his best series was against Boston the following year (when bosh was injured) not so much 2011.

Overall though it's just not as outstanding of an accomplishment due to the lack of threats every round in the east. I think he's had a tough opponent/series every year but last year it's just it was only one or two teams at most that challenged.

LakerShow
05-26-2015, 01:00 PM
He's a good player, been impressed by other stuff, but, in a weak sauce conference. Meh.

Chronz
05-26-2015, 01:02 PM
not even by Magics Showtime Lakers or Boston's dynasty. 1st player to do so with different teams in any era. Many will point to the east being pathetic as the reason

Magic is a great comp because the west was weak for many of his runs. dude lost to a sub.500 team once so the talk of ensured finals births is ignorant . u need elite consistency and durability to pull this off

pebloemer
05-26-2015, 01:07 PM
It is certainly a great feat.

Yes the East hasn't been good.

It is still quite impressive.

As an aside, I'm just curious what people's thought are on this. I haven't developed an opinion myself yet, but I find it an interesting discussion.

Is there a correlation between LeBron's dominance and the conference being so bad for the past few years? Are there GM's out there that just figure "there is no sense trying to push the envelope while LeBron is in his prime, we'd have a better chance to gear up for 4-6 years down the road."

Obviously teams like Chicago, Indiana, Washington, New York, Brooklyn etc. haven't followed this thought process, but there seems to be more Eastern than Western teams that have adopted the idea of a long-term rebuild.

Mell413
05-26-2015, 01:08 PM
It's not as impressive if he did it out of the west but it's still an impressive feat. Getting to the finals 5 years in a row is still an accomplishment.

AllBall
05-26-2015, 01:16 PM
This is a worthless and empty statistic. There were fewer teams and franchise players did not change teams like underwear back in the days.

koreancabbage
05-26-2015, 01:16 PM
Vinylman hates Kobe haha

Anyways, it's a nice accomplishment but you have to look at context. The East is just really bad so not that impressive.

oh lol wrong person then. suck off another NBA player. LOL

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 01:19 PM
Magic is a great comp because the west was weak for many of his runs. dude lost to a sub.500 team once so the talk of ensured finals births is ignorant . u need elite consistency and durability to pull this off

To funny ... magic went to the finals 8 of his first 10 years...

He missed in 1981 in a 3 game series (which would never happen under todays rules) after missing 45 straight games leading up to the playoffs..

He missed in 1986 after again suffering a knee injury In February that year...

context please... context

Teeboy1487
05-26-2015, 01:20 PM
Terrific accomplishment but I do wonder if he could have done this if he was in the West. I'm not taking a slight at Lebron but the East has been so weak the last 5-7 years. Only a team or two truly in the running and Lebron's team were always one of the teams in the running. I think it speaks volumes how great Lebron is and how weak the East has been as well. JMO.

ewing
05-26-2015, 01:23 PM
i don't understand this stat. are we now giving LeBron extra credit for jumping teams? Leading teams to the finals 5 straight years is a great accomplishment but he certainly doesn't get extra credit for jumping teams

nastynice
05-26-2015, 01:31 PM
i don't understand this stat. are we now giving LeBron extra credit for jumping teams? Leading teams to the finals 5 straight years is a great accomplishment but he certainly doesn't get extra credit for jumping teams

Well, in a sense it could push for the argument that it was all because of him. He could jump rosters and still come out with same result

ewing
05-26-2015, 01:33 PM
Well, in a sense it could push for the argument that it was all because of him. He could jump rosters and still come out with same result

yeah, that's BS.

valade16
05-26-2015, 01:34 PM
Right up there with the early 90s Buffalo Bills run. I don't mean that as a slight.

That is one of the more underrated accomplishments in modern sports. Impressive run even though they did manage to lose all 4.

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 01:43 PM
That is one of the more underrated accomplishments in modern sports. Impressive run even though they did manage to lose all 4.

More impressive is that Gale Gilbert was the 3rd string QB in 5 straight Super Bowls...

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 01:47 PM
He's one of the best 5 players in the history of the league, and likely top 3 when he's actually done. It's amazing yet not surprising.

He's top 5 right now and possibly top 3 as it stands, IMO. Depending how the rest of his career shakes up, he still has a chance to reach goat status which is amazing that it's even possible. I'm not sure he catches Mike, but if he wins another championship or two, that will be a legit debate more so than any other player.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 01:57 PM
He's a good player, been impressed by other stuff, but, in a weak sauce conference. Meh.

But Kobe only beat teams in the East during this era or is that not a valid counter point.....



You can only beat the teams you play

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 02:01 PM
yeah, that's BS.

peoples inability to understand that it was EASIER this year because Lebron changed teams is hilarious

Raps08-09 Champ
05-26-2015, 02:34 PM
peoples inability to understand that it was EASIER this year because Lebron changed teams is hilarious

He'd still make the finals staying with the Heat.

Him switching teams isn't the reason he will get to the finals this year.

Chronz
05-26-2015, 02:35 PM
To funny ... magic went to the finals 8 of his first 10 years...

He missed in 1981 in a 3 game series (which would never happen under todays rules) after missing 45 straight games leading up to the playoffs..

He missed in 1986 after again suffering a knee injury In February that year...

context please... context

reread my post. notice the inclusion of the word durability. and ur neglecting to mention how his mutinous attitude influenced the locker room if u want to bring up irrelevant contextual points. lol context indeed

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-26-2015, 02:36 PM
But Kobe only beat teams in the East during this era or is that not a valid counter point.....



You can only beat the teams you play


Well, that's pretty much the point. Us Laker fans always took a big sigh of relief once they got out of the West assuming the East was the cake walk. More often than not we were correct. I would rather have had the Spurs in the East so the Lakers could make the finals nine or ten times as well.

4 out of 5 of Kobe's championships were won in the Western Conference. The finals were just something they had to go to pick up their trophy.

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 03:08 PM
reread my post. notice the inclusion of the word durability. and ur neglecting to mention how his mutinous attitude influenced the locker room if u want to bring up irrelevant contextual points. lol context indeed

meh... we both know they would have made it through in 81 if it was even a 5 game series... I do acknowledge Magic's many issues of which his impact on chemistry in 81 when he came back was huge...

Again, the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous in that it somehow effects Lebron's legacy or standing in the history of the league... the same people impressed by this stat are the ones that say championships are team accomplishments not individual... oh the irony

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 03:10 PM
He'd still make the finals staying with the Heat.

Him switching teams isn't the reason he will get to the finals this year.

nah... you can't just add LeBron to that roster... you have to ditch $20 million in salary... how ya gonna do that...

Raps08-09 Champ
05-26-2015, 03:12 PM
nah... you can't just add LeBron to that roster... you have to ditch $20 million in salary... how ya gonna do that...

If Lebron resigned, then the Heat wouldn't have signed Deng. Let's just take out Dragic as well.

That Heat team still has a good chance to make the NBA finals. They made the finals the past 4 years. Why would I suddenly think the same core wouldn't make it to the finals?

C-Whiteside
PF-Bosh
SF-Lebron
SG-Wade
PG-Chalmers

That starting 5 makes the playoffs for sure and even if you take out Bosh for the entire playoffs, that team still has McRoberts/Beasley at PF and they would still be competitive considering they've done so without Kevin Love.

Chronz
05-26-2015, 03:13 PM
meh... we both know they would have made it through in 81 if it was even a 5 game series... I do acknowledge Magic's many issues of which his impact on chemistry in 81 when he came back was huge...

Again, the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous in that it somehow effects Lebron's legacy or standing in the history of the league... the same people impressed by this stat are the ones that say championships are team accomplishments not individual... oh the irony

only the sith deal in absolutes

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-26-2015, 03:44 PM
5 straight Finals appearances, the last two with two different squads. Hasn't been done in the modern era of hoops, not even by Magics Showtime Lakers or Boston's dynasty. 1st player to do so with different teams in any era. Many will point to the east being pathetic as the reason but just like I don't believe in giving passes for L's I don't believe in taking away from great accomplishments.

In the grand basketball scheme of things how remarkable of a accomplishment is this?
This means absolutely nothing. Lebron made 5 finals in a row with the best team every time. Not to mention he's playing in the weakest conference in history

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-26-2015, 03:47 PM
Lebron = greatness, no doubt. But I'm sry, I just can't ignore how weak the east is. I actually was thinking this the other day, it just doesn't impress me. There are plenty of other things he does which DO impress me, this just ain't one. I think his first run tithe finals w Miami was very impressive, I think people underrate what he did that post season (cuz apparently if u don't win a ring, u suck), but outside of that it almost seem like u could replace his team with ANY top 6 seed from the west n they'd do the same thing.

U guys are really impressed by this?

Great post

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 03:51 PM
The East isn't a powerhouse but I don't think we should diminish what he's doing. His 2nd best player right now, and for the past handful of games is who? Jr Smith? Maybe Thomposon? When he reached the finals the first time he had Larry Hughes and Mo Williams as running mates. Miami collapsed and misses the playoffs in this weak east everyone loves to magnify, and the Cavs are going to reach the finals after having the number 1 pick last year. Has never had a great coach. If you're going to use context about the East, you have to use it for everything I just mentioned as well.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-26-2015, 03:55 PM
But Kobe only beat teams in the East during this era or is that not a valid counter point.....



You can only beat the teams you play


Well, that's pretty much the point. Us Laker fans always took a big sigh of relief once they got out of the West assuming the East was the cake walk. More often than not we were correct. I would rather have had the Spurs in the East so the Lakers could make the finals nine or ten times as well.

4 out of 5 of Kobe's championships were won in the Western Conference. The finals were just something they had to go to pick up their trophy.

Spot on

Raps08-09 Champ
05-26-2015, 04:00 PM
Playing in a bad East shouldn't reduce his accomplishments. Literally all the things that happen in this league are heavily influenced by situation. All-NBA Team, All star appearances, championship runs, scoring records, etc.

Obviously a lot of other players could do what Lebron is just about to do in his situation, but Lebron could do as much as those other players in their situation

lol, please
05-26-2015, 04:08 PM
5 straight Finals appearances, the last two with two different squads. Hasn't been done in the modern era of hoops, not even by Magics Showtime Lakers or Boston's dynasty. 1st player to do so with different teams in any era. Many will point to the east being pathetic as the reason but just like I don't believe in giving passes for L's I don't believe in taking away from great accomplishments.

In the grand basketball scheme of things how remarkable of a accomplishment is this?

It's only remarkable if you ignore context. The East is incredibly weak, for one, so the more dominant teams rise to the finals with less resistance. Second, Lebron can only be credited with carrying a weak team to the finals once. He got carried by two future HOF in Wade and Bosh with the Heat, and went life and death with a depleted and rebuilding Celtics team, an injured but better on paper Bulls team, and an injury plagued young Hawks team. He just lost Love and Kyrie so let's not act like he carried the team without them the whole season. Either one of the Warriors or Rockets sweep them, not one game will be close. Not one.

Me and Mr. T
05-26-2015, 04:25 PM
Considering the fact he had to leave Cleveland and get two other all-stars in their primes to commit to signing on the same team just to try and win a ring, I don't really think this accomplishment means that much. Even now in Cleveland he needed them to go out and get Love to make a run. Is he one of the greatest of all-time? When all is said and done..yes. I also think people will look back and realize he needed a lot of help to do it. Jordan had Scottie and that was it. Sure he had Horace Grant and Rodman, but those guys weren't making top money and weren't in the top 20 in the league. Jordan did it with a lot less and the league wasn't as watered down as it is now. When Brooklyn makes the playoffs and isn't even .500 that tells you how bad the East is.

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 04:27 PM
The East isn't a powerhouse but I don't think we should diminish what he's doing. His 2nd best player right now, and for the past handful of games is who? Jr Smith? Maybe Thomposon? When he reached the finals the first time he had Larry Hughes and Mo Williams as running mates. Miami collapsed and misses the playoffs in this weak east everyone loves to magnify, and the Cavs are going to reach the finals after having the number 1 pick last year. Has never had a great coach. If you're going to use context about the East, you have to use it for everything I just mentioned as well.

I always laugh when i read posts about 2007... he had no help ... he didn't have this or that... that Cleveland team was a defensive Juggernaut... AV Iggy Hughes, Snow etc... and no MO wasn't on that team.

You do realize that only one team scored 100 points in a game in that series and only one team scored 90 points in a game in that series... the same game...

btw... why would Cleveland lose this year... do you see who is playing for ATL right now?

Do you think this is the first time that a team with the #1 pick has made the finals? might want to bone up on your NBA history

pretty weak case

Hawkize31
05-26-2015, 04:30 PM
Considering the fact he had to leave Cleveland and get two other all-stars in their primes to commit to signing on the same team just to try and win a ring, I don't really think this accomplishment means that much. Even now in Cleveland he needed them to go out and get Love to make a run. Is he one of the greatest of all-time? When all is said and done..yes. I also think people will look back and realize he needed a lot of help to do it. Jordan had Scottie and that was it. Sure he had Horace Grant and Rodman, but those guys weren't making top money and weren't in the top 20 in the league. Jordan did it with a lot less and the league wasn't as watered down as it is now. When Brooklyn makes the playoffs and isn't even .500 that tells you how bad the East is.

Are you aware Dennis Rodman is in the basketball hall of fame?

If Rodman is you're idea of 'not that good', then Lebron's teammates are a junior high B team squad.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 04:34 PM
Well, that's pretty much the point. Us Laker fans always took a big sigh of relief once they got out of the West assuming the East was the cake walk. More often than not we were correct. I would rather have had the Spurs in the East so the Lakers could make the finals nine or ten times as well.

4 out of 5 of Kobe's championships were won in the Western Conference. The finals were just something they had to go to pick up their trophy.

I actually think that post shaq lakers met the best team in the finals every time. 08 and 10 are obvious to me with the celtics. In 09 kg was hurt so it was Orlando but that team was solid and lakers didn't really face anyone that tough out west that year (nuggets would be best from west probably). Maybe due to matchup with them not having someone to stop Kobe and lakers front court being so good nuggets were slightly tougher for the lakers but Orlando was the better team.

Overall though the depth of the west has been much stronger than the east and that does need to be considered here. I just disagree about the finals being the easy part for the lakers (post shaq) since that's where they faced the best teams.

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 04:35 PM
I always laugh when i read posts about 2007... he had no help ... he didn't have this or that... that Cleveland team was a defensive Juggernaut... AV Iggy Hughes, Snow etc... and no MO wasn't on that team.

You do realize that only one team scored 100 points in a game in that series and only one team scored 90 points in a game in that series... the same game...

btw... why would Cleveland lose this year... do you see who is playing for ATL right now?

Do you think this is the first time that a team with the #1 pick has made the finals? might want to bone up on your NBA history

pretty weak case

He left Miami who made the finals and Miami doesn't even make the playoffs in the "weak east." Cleveland is about to go to the finals after being one of the worst teams last season. If you want to diminish that, that's fine...but to me, that's pretty impressive. And I really dislike LeBron...

And I'm glad it's funny about leading a bunch of nobody's to the finals despite having a great defense. They had no other scorers on that team...but let's ignore that. Oh my bad, they had Boobie Gibson, Gooden and big Z...clearly, they were a force. Not to mention LeBron was what, 23,24 that year? Coached by the almighty Mike Brown....if none of that is impressive to you, that's fine...I wish it wasn't to me because I really dislike Bron as a person....but the guy is unreal both on the court and his leadership abilities.

Me and Mr. T
05-26-2015, 04:35 PM
Are you aware Dennis Rodman is in the basketball hall of fame?

If Rodman is you're idea of 'not that good', then Lebron's teammates are a junior high B team squad.

I'm completely aware. Rodman wasn't in the top 20 in the league at the time and sure as hell wasn't making max money. That was my point. Meanwhile in LeBron world he needed Bosh and Wade who were in their prime and made max money.

ewing
05-26-2015, 04:37 PM
I'm completely aware. Rodman wasn't in the top 20 in the league at the time and sure as hell wasn't making max money. That was my point. Meanwhile in LeBron world he needed Bosh and Wade who were in their prime and made max money.


great username. are you a fan of the Mr T experience?

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 04:40 PM
He left Miami who made the finals and Miami doesn't even make the playoffs in the "weak east." Cleveland is about to go to the finals after being one of the worst teams last season. If you want to diminish that, that's fine...but to me, that's pretty impressive. And I really dislike LeBron...

And I'm glad it's funny about leading a bunch of nobody's to the finals despite having a great defense. They had no other scorers on that team...but let's ignore that. Oh my bad, they had Boobie Gibson, Gooden and big Z...clearly, they were a force. Not to mention LeBron was what, 23,24 that year? Coached by the almighty Mike Brown....if none of that is impressive to you, that's fine...I wish it wasn't to me because I really dislike Bron as a person....but the guy is unreal both on the court and his leadership abilities.

Lebron didn't do anything in 2007 that AI didn't do in 2001

do you remember who started for philly? do you?

jumaine ****ing jones
tyrone Hill
aaron mckie
mutombo

How is that team any worse than Cleveland... I don't see anyone sucking AI's dick like they do Lebron for basically doing the same thing

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 04:46 PM
Lebron didn't do anything in 2007 that AI didn't do in 2001

do you remember who started for philly? do you?

jumaine ****ing jones
tyrone Hill
aaron mckie
mutombo

How is that team any worse than Cleveland... I don't see anyone sucking AI's dick like they do Lebron for basically doing the same thing

Well for one, LeBron's numbers are light years better than AI and that was the last finals appearance for AI. Might have something to do with that. That's not even taking into account stuff like multiple MVP awards and what not.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 04:49 PM
It's only remarkable if you ignore context. The East is incredibly weak, for one, so the more dominant teams rise to the finals with less resistance. Second, Lebron can only be credited with carrying a weak team to the finals once. He got carried by two future HOF in Wade and Bosh with the Heat, and went life and death with a depleted and rebuilding Celtics team, an injured but better on paper Bulls team, and an injury plagued young Hawks team. He just lost Love and Kyrie so let's not act like he carried the team without them the whole season. Either one of the Warriors or Rockets sweep them, not one game will be close. Not one.

lol, please

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 04:49 PM
This means absolutely nothing. Lebron made 5 finals in a row with the best team every time. Not to mention he's playing in the weakest conference in history
what a joke dude. they aren't the best team without him, ANY time. you could say the exact same thing about Jordan and Bryant.

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 04:49 PM
Well for one, LeBron's numbers are light years better than AI and that was the last finals appearance for AI. Might have something to do with that. That's not even taking into account stuff like multiple MVP awards and what not.

it's cool dude.. i see you can't stay focused... no worries

Me and Mr. T
05-26-2015, 04:52 PM
great username. are you a fan of the Mr T experience?

Mr. T is actually a huge Jets fan. I met him before a game years ago. Nicest guy in the world and nobody knew who he was until I made a huge deal about him haha The name kind of stuck after I needed a user name.

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 04:57 PM
it's cool dude.. i see you can't stay focused... no worries

Nope, I sure can't. Talking about LeBron's legacy and you bring up AI. I lack the focus for sure.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 05:03 PM
Well, that's pretty much the point. Us Laker fans always took a big sigh of relief once they got out of the West assuming the East was the cake walk. More often than not we were correct. I would rather have had the Spurs in the East so the Lakers could make the finals nine or ten times as well.

4 out of 5 of Kobe's championships were won in the Western Conference. The finals were just something they had to go to pick up their trophy.


This is where Lakers fans lose me....Lebron is a joke because he had to beat teams in the east to make the finals...Kobe is a god because he beat the eastern conference team (because he had to make it through the west) to win the title......I get your point, but you can't have it both ways.


Your titles are meaningless if Lebron's finals appearances are....you can't have it both ways



Kobes titles are only meaningful if Lebrons final appearances are

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 05:10 PM
This is where Lakers fans lose me....Lebron is a joke because he had to beat teams in the east to make the finals...Kobe is a god because he beat the eastern conference team (because he had to make it through the west) to win the title......I get your point, but you can't have it both ways.


Your titles are meaningless if Lebron's finals appearances are....you can't have it both ways



Kobes titles are only meaningful if Lebrons final appearances are
You lost me

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 05:12 PM
You lost me


Fair enough


What I'm saying is


Someone can't discredit Lebron for making the finals because the east is terrible, but turn around and give Kobe credit for winning titles because the east is terrible.

Either Lebron accomplished something by beating the east and making the finals and Kobes titles are meaningful or neither is meaningful.

If you take oneside but not the other you are disregarding part of your own argument to make your point.

Bruno
05-26-2015, 05:13 PM
Leading a team to 5 straight finals appearances is something only a top 10 player of all-time could do.

agreed. having a bye week in round one (and sometimes round two) of the playoffs for five seasons in a row facilitates accomplishing such a mammoth task.

2011 76ers, 41-41 (wouldn't qualify for playoffs in '11 WC, 5 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).
2012 Knicks, 36-30 (would qualify for playoffs in '12 WC, 0 games behind WC 8 seed, or 8th in WC [tie breaker]
2013 Bucks, 38-44 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in '13 WC, 7 games behind WC 8 seed, or 11th in WC)
2013 Bulls, 45-37 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in '13 WC, 0 games behind WC 8 seed, or 9th in WC). [tie breaker]
2014 Bobcats, 43-39 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in '14 WC, 6 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).
2014 Nets, 44-38 (wouldn't qualify for playoffs in the '14 WC, 5 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).
2015 Celtics, 40-42 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in the '15 WC, 5 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).

Those 2012 lockout Knick had the same record as the Jefferson/Millsap led Jazz (36-30). The Knicks won the only head to head game between the two teams that season, and would have owned the tie breaker, thus making the playoffs as the 8th seed in the western conference.

the above is unfair to LBJ in the sense that lots of old greats had cake walks on their way to the finals, and we hear nothing of it. but this is relatively unique to the modern era.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 05:16 PM
Fair enough


What I'm saying is


Someone can't discredit Lebron for making the finals because the east is terrible, but turn around and give Kobe credit for winning titles because the east is terrible.

Either Lebron accomplished something by beating the east and making the finals and Kobes titles are meaningful or neither is meaningful.

If you take oneside but not the other you are disregarding part of your own argument to make your point.
I think the flip side of that argument is Kobe played in a tougher conference, not what you are saying

Bruno
05-26-2015, 05:17 PM
Fair enough


What I'm saying is


Someone can't discredit Lebron for making the finals because the east is terrible, but turn around and give Kobe credit for winning titles because the east is terrible.

Either Lebron accomplished something by beating the east and making the finals and Kobes titles are meaningful or neither is meaningful.

If you take oneside but not the other you are disregarding part of your own argument to make your point.

I disagree. LBJ plays playoff fodder in round one and sometimes round two. Teams that literally wouldn't even quality for the post season in the Western Conference. When a western conference team plays the eastern champion in the finals 1) they're usually the one or two seed and are a quality 50+ win team 2) that team is a hard match up because they are well rested as a result of not being challenged within their own half of the bracket.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 05:18 PM
I think the flip side of that argument is Kobe played in a tougher conference, not what you are saying

True and fair, but he still won in the finals against the east. There is no NBA championship for winning your conference.


I'm on the side of both accomplished something, I'm just pointing out a flaw in some people's arguements

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 05:20 PM
I disagree. LBJ plays playoff fodder in round one and sometimes round two. Teams that literally wouldn't even quality for the post season in the Western Conference. When a western conference team plays the eastern champion in the finals 1) they're usually the one or two seed and are a quality 50+ win team 2) that team is a hard match up because they are well rested as a result of not being challenged within their own half of the bracket.


Kobe still had to beat a team from the east to win a title.....Kobe had a tougher road, I'm not questioning that, I'm just saying there is no NBA title with him beating the east. So if Lebron's final appearances are meaningless so are Kobe's titles because they both came against the east, or they both are meaningful.

You can't have it both ways.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 05:22 PM
Lebron didn't do anything in 2007 that AI didn't do in 2001

do you remember who started for philly? do you?

jumaine ****ing jones
tyrone Hill
aaron mckie
mutombo

How is that team any worse than Cleveland... I don't see anyone sucking AI's dick like they do Lebron for basically doing the same thing

To start we can look on the defensive end where AI was more of a negative (at best nuetral) and Lebron was actually a part of why his team was so good defensively. From there we can point out that Lebron individually had a bigger impact on his team than AI all around (I won't detail the stats but it's obvious by watching). Then looking at their next best player you get someone like Mutumbo who was the reason for their defense and was way more efficient offensively while getting more post season ws than Iverson did that season. For Lebron that player is Big z who wasn't at the same level defensively as Mutumbo and only slightly better offensively (also Lebron easily had most WS on his team).

If we want to look at what it took to get to the finals Iverson posted less assists, rebounds, stls/blks, and had worse defense vs. Milwaukee than Lebron did vs. Detroit (hardest match ups). iverson also only scored 29 more pts on 68 more attempts. The highest scorer for Cleveland outside Lebron this series was gibson who mostly scored off open shots created by Lebron while Mutumbo had a higher game score than Iverson (who had a 97 ortg). Lebron also had one of the best playoff games ever this series when he scored 29 of their final 30 points to take the series lead.

I don't want to take away what AI did as it was still an impressive season but they aren't completely comparable when looking at context and if we focus on the individual. If you wanna just say this defensive team had a star carry them to the finals like the cavs then in general its true but the impact of the individuals was definitely different which is why one player might be seen a bit higher for what he did (while being like 3 years younger).

Bruno
05-26-2015, 05:22 PM
Kobe still had to beat a team from the east to win a title.....Kobe had a tougher road, I'm not questioning that, I'm just saying there is no NBA title with him beating the east. So if Lebron's final appearances are meaningless so are Kobe's titles because they both came against the east, or they both are meaningful.

You can't have it both ways.

LBJs finals appearances are far from meaningless. they just need to put into the proper context.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 05:24 PM
edit....misread what I quoted



Bruno made a good point

InRoseWeTrust
05-26-2015, 05:25 PM
agreed. having a bye week in round one (and sometimes round two) of the playoffs for five seasons in a row facilitates accomplishing such a mammoth task.

2011 76ers, 41-41 (wouldn't qualify for playoffs in '11 WC, 5 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).
2012 Knicks, 36-30 (would qualify for playoffs in '12 WC, 0 games behind WC 8 seed, or 8th in WC [tie breaker]
2013 Bucks, 38-44 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in '13 WC, 7 games behind WC 8 seed, or 11th in WC)
2013 Bulls, 45-37 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in '13 WC, 0 games behind WC 8 seed, or 9th in WC). [tie breaker]
2014 Bobcats, 43-39 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in '14 WC, 6 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).
2014 Nets, 44-38 (wouldn't qualify for playoffs in the '14 WC, 5 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).
2015 Celtics, 40-42 (wouldn't quality for playoffs in the '15 WC, 5 games behind WC 8 seed, or 10th in WC).

Those 2012 lockout Knick had the same record as the Jefferson/Millsap led Jazz (36-30). The Knicks won the only head to head game between the two teams that season, and would have owned the tie breaker, thus making the playoffs as the 8th seed in the western conference.

the above is unfair to LBJ in the sense that lots of old greats had cake walks on their way to the finals, and we hear nothing of it. but this is relatively unique to the modern era.

2013 Bulls were 48-34

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 05:33 PM
To start we can look on the defensive end where AI was more of a negative (at best nuetral) and Lebron was actually a part of why his team was so good defensively. From there we can point out that Lebron individually had a bigger impact on his team than AI all around (I won't detail the stats but it's obvious by watching). Then looking at their next best player you get someone like Mutumbo who was the reason for their defense and was way more efficient offensively while getting more post season ws than Iverson did that season. For Lebron that player is Big z who wasn't at the same level defensively as Mutumbo and only slightly better offensively (also Lebron easily had most WS on his team).

If we want to look at what it took to get to the finals Iverson posted less assists, rebounds, stls/blks, and had worse defense vs. Milwaukee than Lebron did vs. Detroit (hardest match ups). iverson also only scored 29 more pts on 68 more attempts. The highest scorer for Cleveland outside Lebron this series was gibson who mostly scored off open shots created by Lebron while Mutumbo had a higher game score than Iverson (who had a 97 ortg). Lebron also had one of the best playoff games ever this series when he scored 29 of their final 30 points to take the series lead.

I don't want to take away what AI did as it was still an impressive season but they aren't completely comparable when looking at context and if we focus on the individual. If you wanna just say this defensive team had a star carry them to the finals like the cavs then in general its true but the impact of the individuals was definitely different which is why one player might be seen a bit higher for what he did (while being like 3 years younger).

Very good analysis. Especially about Mutombo having a higher ws than Iverson in the post season.

Unfortunately, the conversation got side tracked when AI was brought up and really had nothing to do with LeBron's accomplishments. Anyone who dismisses what LeBron is doing most likely really does not like him and is biased when giving him his due. As a fan of the Bulls, which obviously included Jordan and now on the receiving end of getting smashed by LeBron every year, I have not seen anyone as good since Jordan. MAYBE Duncan, maybe....but I suspect if you swapped Duncan for LeBron on those Spurs teams, he'd have the same success.

I just don't understand how people try to downplay how great LeBron is and how impressive his accomplishments are. I still say when LeBron retires, he'll have a legitimate case as the goat. Not saying he'll pass him, but it's still within reach and just the mere fact that he's going to make a case out of it, is insanely impressive.

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 05:37 PM
To start we can look on the defensive end where AI was more of a negative (at best nuetral) and Lebron was actually a part of why his team was so good defensively. From there we can point out that Lebron individually had a bigger impact on his team than AI all around (I won't detail the stats but it's obvious by watching). Then looking at their next best player you get someone like Mutumbo who was the reason for their defense and was way more efficient offensively while getting more post season ws than Iverson did that season. For Lebron that player is Big z who wasn't at the same level defensively as Mutumbo and only slightly better offensively (also Lebron easily had most WS on his team).

If we want to look at what it took to get to the finals Iverson posted less assists, rebounds, stls/blks, and had worse defense vs. Milwaukee than Lebron did vs. Detroit (hardest match ups). iverson also only scored 29 more pts on 68 more attempts. The highest scorer for Cleveland outside Lebron this series was gibson who mostly scored off open shots created by Lebron while Mutumbo had a higher game score than Iverson (who had a 97 ortg). Lebron also had one of the best playoff games ever this series when he scored 29 of their final 30 points to take the series lead.

I don't want to take away what AI did as it was still an impressive season but they aren't completely comparable when looking at context and if we focus on the individual. If you wanna just say this defensive team had a star carry them to the finals like the cavs then in general its true but the impact of the individuals was definitely different which is why one player might be seen a bit higher for what he did (while being like 3 years younger).

I bolded the first paragraph because that is simply nothing more than opinion... you didn't state a single FACT.

But again, as is typical at PSD, you want to change the argument... where did i say AI statistically performed to the level of Lebron? I didn't ... my simple point was that AI took a group of sub optimal players to the finals in basically the same way that Lebron did in 2007 yet everyone just wants to suck Lebron off for getting to the finals while ridiculing some minor statistic of AI's when he accomplished the same thing

flea
05-26-2015, 05:38 PM
You didn't see enough of Duncan's game in his prime if you think Lebron, or anyone for that matter, could step in and win the title in 2003. Hakeem probably wasn't a good enough passer to make it work, Kareem similar and his defensive impact wasn't as great, Shaq didn't have the defensive presence or a diverse enough game to do it, Michael would have the same problems Lebron would in that there isn't nearly enough defensive or rebounding talent to make much noise (much less beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers). Magic? Please.

Now a more interesting topic would be whether Lebron could have beaten the Kobe/Shaq Lakers in 2001 with AI's team. I still think no, but it might be close.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-26-2015, 05:40 PM
True and fair, but he still won in the finals against the east. There is no NBA championship for winning your conference.


I'm on the side of both accomplished something, I'm just pointing out a flaw in some people's arguements

Most Laker fans as well as myself would acknowledge that he didn't have to beat any one really great in the finals. No one has ever really said that. Our finals were against the Spurs, the Kings, the Trailblazers, etc.

We say that he earned the championship once he got through the Western Conference Finals. He and Shaq should get no credit for beating the East teams. The magic was a 4 To 1 gentleman sweep. Obviously the toughest opponent was the Celtics in 10.

I should clarify, LeBron is a great player. He is better than Kobe individually, and when it's all said and done, might have a better career. But context has to be taken when giving someone credit for making the finals 5 times in a row.

If you're of varsity player and are put on a JV league team, are you all of a sudden so great because you won your JV leagues but get beaten up when you go play the other varsity players?

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 05:44 PM
Very good analysis. Especially about Mutombo having a higher ws than Iverson in the post season.

Unfortunately, the conversation got side tracked when AI was brought up and really had nothing to do with LeBron's accomplishments. Anyone who dismisses what LeBron is doing most likely really does not like him and is biased when giving him his due. As a fan of the Bulls, which obviously included Jordan and now on the receiving end of getting smashed by LeBron every year, I have not seen anyone as good since Jordan. MAYBE Duncan, maybe....but I suspect if you swapped Duncan for LeBron on those Spurs teams, he'd have the same success.

I just don't understand how people try to downplay how great LeBron is and how impressive his accomplishments are. I still say when LeBron retires, he'll have a legitimate case as the goat. Not saying he'll pass him, but it's still within reach and just the mere fact that he's going to make a case out of it, is insanely impressive.

It happens to a lot of players, some people just hate them for one reason or another. There will always be people who try and diminish what he has accomplished just as some will always over state what he's done. The AI comparison is just using a team result (making the finals with defensive mind set) and ignoring the impact of the individual. Unfortunately that seems to happen a ton here.

I don't think Lebron can make it to GOAT but maybe top 3 or something is possible. I actually think he has a hard time passing Duncan who I have at 4 (or 5).

L8kers4life
05-26-2015, 05:45 PM
Are you aware Dennis Rodman is in the basketball hall of fame?

If Rodman is you're idea of 'not that good', then Lebron's teammates are a junior high B team squad.

Using Rodman, who was well past his prime is the same thing as saying LeBron played Shaq, Ray Allen, and Big Z and Antawn Jamison, the first 2 are Hall of Famers and the last 2 were all stars. That is a bad analogy.

Heck when Rodman played for the Bulls, he was cross dressing and getting married in a wedding dress, all he could do was rebound and defend, but was a headcase as well.

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 05:47 PM
It happens to a lot of players, some people just hate them for one reason or another. There will always be people who try and diminish what he has accomplished just as some will always over state what he's done. The AI comparison is just using a team result (making the finals with defensive mind set) and ignoring the impact of the individual. Unfortunately that seems to happen a ton here.

I don't think Lebron can make it to GOAT but maybe top 3 or something is possible. I actually think he has a hard time passing Duncan who I have at 4 (or 5).

That's fair...what do you think would hold him back? Not enough championships? Too many finals losses? Jumping ship?

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 05:51 PM
You didn't see enough of Duncan's game in his prime if you think Lebron, or anyone for that matter, could step in and win the title in 2003. Hakeem probably wasn't a good enough passer to make it work, Kareem similar and his defensive impact wasn't as great, Shaq didn't have the defensive presence or a diverse enough game to do it, Michael would have the same problems Lebron would in that there isn't nearly enough defensive or rebounding talent to make much noise (much less beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers). Magic? Please.

Now a more interesting topic would be whether Lebron could have beaten the Kobe/Shaq Lakers in 2001 with AI's team. I still think no, but it might be close.

I've seen plenty of Duncan. Would LeBron win with the Spurs squad in 2003 minus Duncan? I don't know....but I do know he would have more than 2 rings at this point.

And I don't think LeBron beats that 2001 Lakers team either. It would go more than 5 games, though.

flea
05-26-2015, 05:55 PM
I've seen plenty of Duncan. Would LeBron win with the Spurs squad in 2003 minus Duncan? I don't know....but I do know he would have more than 2 rings at this point.

And I don't think LeBron beats that 2001 Lakers team either. It would go more than 5 games, though.

Lol get real dude. He had 2 rings in his first 5 years in the league as the best player on his team both times. in 2000 he got hurt and didn't play in the playoffs (his super-daunting team was dispatched easily by the Suns, with Robinson shooting 37% as a center). The only 2 losses he had in those years were to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. So you think Lebron with that terrible roster San Antonio had was going to have more than 2 rings in 5 chances facing the Shaq/Kobe Lakers? Rookie year lost to the team that nearly beat MJ's stacked Bulls, one of the best teams ever. Again, get real.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 05:56 PM
I bolded the first paragraph because that is simply nothing more than opinion... you didn't state a single FACT.

But again, as is typical at PSD, you want to change the argument... where did i say AI statistically performed to the level of Lebron? I didn't ... my simple point was that AI took a group of sub optimal players to the finals in basically the same way that Lebron did in 2007 yet everyone just wants to suck Lebron off for getting to the finals while ridiculing some minor statistic of AI's when he accomplished the same thing

"Lebron didn't do anything in 2007 that AI didn't do in 2001" a direct quote from you. I pointed out many many differences there. Also I wasn't aware that having more WS for a playoff run was an opinion. Do you disagree that Lebron is better defensively? Do you disagree Mutumbo was the biggest part of that defense or that big Z wasn't as good defensively? While I may have stated some opinion you haven't brought anything to the table at all. Go ahead and argue if you disagree but it wasn't all opinion and I would gladly argue if you disagree with those points since they are pretty common knowledge type of things.

Your point seemed to be stated as Lebron didn't do anything more than Iverson (and seemed mad people gave him more credit). He clearly did in many aspects of the game throughout the year and in the biggest series as well which I pointed out. Iverson's team and Lebron's team both made the finals you are correct but individually there definitely was a difference and you are talking about the individuals. If you would like to actually reply to my post with counter points feel free but there is a difference between Lebron in 07 and Iverson in 01.

Bruno
05-26-2015, 06:02 PM
2013 Bulls were 48-34

2012-2013 Bulls were 45-37
2013-2014 Bulls were 48-34

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 06:03 PM
Lol get real dude. He had 2 rings in his first 5 years in the league as the best player on his team both times. in 2000 he got hurt and didn't play in the playoffs (his super-daunting team was dispatched easily by the Suns, with Robinson shooting 37% as a center). The only 2 losses he had in those years were to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. So you think Lebron with that terrible roster San Antonio had was going to have more than 2 rings in 5 chances facing the Shaq/Kobe Lakers? Rookie year lost to the team that nearly beat MJ's stacked Bulls, one of the best teams ever. Again, get real.

Well, that really depends on who whatever big would be replacing Duncan in this extremely hypothetical situation. What I was really trying to say however, was that if LeBron was drafted by the Spurs, coached by pop, and played with guys like Manu, Parker, and a great supporting cast that fit together, he would have more than 2 rings. Is that really that crazy?

Vinylman
05-26-2015, 06:05 PM
"Lebron didn't do anything in 2007 that AI didn't do in 2001" a direct quote from you. I pointed out many many differences there. Also I wasn't aware that having more WS for a playoff run was an opinion. Do you disagree that Lebron is better defensively? Do you disagree Mutumbo was the biggest part of that defense or that big Z wasn't as good defensively? While I may have stated some opinion you haven't brought anything to the table at all. Go ahead and argue if you disagree but it wasn't all opinion and I would gladly argue if you disagree with those points since they are pretty common knowledge type of things.

Your point seemed to be stated as Lebron didn't do anything more than Iverson (and seemed mad people gave him more credit). He clearly did in many aspects of the game throughout the year and in the biggest series as well which I pointed out. Iverson's team and Lebron's team both made the finals you are correct but individually there definitely was a difference and you are talking about the individuals. If you would like to actually reply to my post with counter points feel free but there is a difference between Lebron in 07 and Iverson in 01.

no .. you have totally missed the point i am making but i am not surprised...

just to clear up the Philly / Cavs comparison... you have cherry picked 4 guys for your argument when there are 26 other players you are ignoring...

If you think those two teams are of different quality then i will just have to agree to disagree...

As far as Lebron, my beliefs on where he resides in the all time NBA list has been noted on here before ... i see him at 7-8 right now and assume if his trajectory is the same as most stars before him that he will end up in the top 5 easily and probably can get as high as 2-3 depending on his regular season stats.

What i find hilarious is the LBJ sycophants on this site who make excuse after excuse for him when something doesn't go right but then suck him off for a meaningless stat that is the basis of this thread...

It's ok to add context when it favors LBJ but not when it doesn't ... the double standard is mind boggling and simply laughable

So back to my original premise... why is this historic when any number of players on the Celtics went to significantly more finals in a row? Oh i know because someone wants to use "context" to prop up the inferior case

Bruno
05-26-2015, 06:05 PM
edit....misread what I quoted



Bruno made a good point

but your point is interesting too in the sense that even Kobe doesn't get overly praised in defeating the Magic in 2009, or in the first three with Shaq (or in 2010 either really because of the shooting performance in game seven, despite the rebounding). but i like what Dogers/Lakers said too regarding defacto championship series in the west (like 2001, whoever won the Spurs/Laker series was probably going to win the championship, same with Portland, same with Sacramento).

SoxPatsCeltsBs
05-26-2015, 06:07 PM
I'd be impressed if he played in the west. The East is dog poo...

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 06:07 PM
That's fair...what do you think would hold him back? Not enough championships? Too many finals losses? Jumping ship?

I don't care as much about championships as some but if he finishes with 2 it makes his accolades a little more lacking (although I have wilt at 3 and hakeem at 7 with 2 rings). I also consider making the finals a plus so that argument makes no sense to me. When compared to guys like Tim he just doesn't have the defensive impact or longevity (at this point) and I'm not sure he will have a great decline himself. I guess its a mix of defense, accolades, and longevity. The longevity could easily change if he proves me wrong and has 4-5 more good years and that would likely help the accolades department too.

We will see I haven't ruled out anything except probably GOAT but I am expecting him to likely be on my Duncan/Shaq/Magic tier finishing 4-6 all time.

flea
05-26-2015, 06:08 PM
Well, that really depends on who whatever big would be replacing Duncan in this extremely hypothetical situation. What I was really trying to say however, was that if LeBron was drafted by the Spurs, coached by pop, and played with guys like Manu, Parker, and a great supporting cast that fit together, he would have more than 2 rings. Is that really that crazy?

Ah I apologize, I thought you meant more than 2 rings by the time Duncan did in 2003 - but you meant more than 2 rings total that he has currently. Who knows what would have happened, but it's sort of funny that the legend Coach Pop was on the hot seat until Duncan came along.

I don't think Lebron has had a poor time of it compared to other stars though - and certainly not compared to what Duncan had to work with through his age 30 season (which was really the first and only year he had a great supporting cast, though they were solid in 99 and from 05-11 or whenever the Richard Jefferson experiment began).

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 06:13 PM
You didn't see enough of Duncan's game in his prime if you think Lebron, or anyone for that matter, could step in and win the title in 2003. Hakeem probably wasn't a good enough passer to make it work, Kareem similar and his defensive impact wasn't as great, Shaq didn't have the defensive presence or a diverse enough game to do it, Michael would have the same problems Lebron would in that there isn't nearly enough defensive or rebounding talent to make much noise (much less beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers). Magic? Please.

Now a more interesting topic would be whether Lebron could have beaten the Kobe/Shaq Lakers in 2001 with AI's team. I still think no, but it might be close.

I've seen plenty of Duncan. Would LeBron win with the Spurs squad in 2003 minus Duncan? I don't know....but I do know he would have more than 2 rings at this point.

And I don't think LeBron beats that 2001 Lakers team either. It would go more than 5 games, though.

Lebron would've got swept by the 2001 Lakers. They swept the Spurs. The only reason AI singlehandedly got a game out of LA is because he was pretty much unstoppable one-on-one and could shoot from anywhere on the court. Even then it took him the game of his life and OT to get the W.

Lebrons J was broke for many years, we saw what happened when the Spurs let him shoot. If you thought the Spurs sweep of Cleveland was bad this would've been a total beatdown....

Shlumpledink
05-26-2015, 06:17 PM
The east sucks and Lebron is dominant to the point of being unstoppable. His success is unprecedented, I don't think anyone expected him to be a regular fixture in the finals.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 06:17 PM
no .. you have totally missed the point i am making but i am not surprised...

just to clear up the Philly / Cavs comparison... you have cherry picked 4 guys for your argument when there are 26 other players you are ignoring...

If you think those two teams are of different quality then i will just have to agree to disagree...

As far as Lebron, my beliefs on where he resides in the all time NBA list has been noted on here before ... i see him at 7-8 right now and assume if his trajectory is the same as most stars before him that he will end up in the top 5 easily and probably can get as high as 2-3 depending on his regular season stats.

What i find hilarious is the LBJ sycophants on this site who make excuse after excuse for him when something doesn't go right but then suck him off for a meaningless stat that is the basis of this thread...

It's ok to add context when it favors LBJ but not when it doesn't ... the double standard is mind boggling and simply laughable

So back to my original premise... why is this historic when any number of players on the Celtics went to significantly more finals in a row? Oh i know because someone wants to use "context" to prop up the inferior case

That has nothing to do with the initial post of yours I quoted. I haven't been claiming this is some incredible feat, although it is still impressive (just needs context).

You clearly stated that 2007 Lebron did nothing that 2001 Iverson didn't do (and then whined about credit given to them). I gave a ton of evidence to back up that your statement was false. We can agree to disagree though, I was just calling out a post I disagreed with.

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 06:22 PM
Lebron would've got swept by the 2001 Lakers. They swept the Spurs. The only reason AI singlehandedly got a game out of LA is because he was pretty much unstoppable one-on-one and could shoot from anywhere on the court. Even then it took him the game of his life and OT to get the W.

Lebrons J was broke for many years, we saw what happened when the Spurs let him shoot. If you thought the Spurs sweep of Cleveland was bad this would've been a total beatdown....

Swept? Not so sure about that but you're right...the one game the 6ers took AI was raining shots. I guess it depends on which LeBron showed up...but also, LeBron has other physical talents AI didn't so who really knows. Definitely think they lose the series still.


Ah I apologize, I thought you meant more than 2 rings by the time Duncan did in 2003 - but you meant more than 2 rings total that he has currently. Who knows what would have happened, but it's sort of funny that the legend Coach Pop was on the hot seat until Duncan came along.

I don't think Lebron has had a poor time of it compared to other stars though - and certainly not compared to what Duncan had to work with through his age 30 season (which was really the first and only year he had a great supporting cast, though they were solid in 99 and from 05-11 or whenever the Richard Jefferson experiment began).

It's fine, I never really clarified exactly. Duncan is one of my all time favorite players so I'm not trying to discredit him at all. My guess, assuming LeBron plays for another 5-7 years and is able to continue to refine his post game while still being a great passer and defender, is he ends up anywhere from 2-4 all time. I'm not sure where I have him right now but closer to top 5-7ish. The only thing he's really missing is a great jump shot but I don't hold that against him too much as Shaq couldn't even hit a free throw. Different positions I know...but his impact is still undeniable.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 06:56 PM
I bolded the first paragraph because that is simply nothing more than opinion... you didn't state a single FACT.

But again, as is typical at PSD, you want to change the argument... where did i say AI statistically performed to the level of Lebron? I didn't ... my simple point was that AI took a group of sub optimal players to the finals in basically the same way that Lebron did in 2007 yet everyone just wants to suck Lebron off for getting to the finals while ridiculing some minor statistic of AI's when he accomplished the same thing
Nice dodge. You aren't saying Iverson performed as well as Lebron, just implying it. Glad we got that straight.

sep11ie
05-26-2015, 07:05 PM
But the East is so damn bad.

TDE
05-26-2015, 07:38 PM
He's playing in the East that's why. Out of the last 5 years I see him making it once out West.

Me and Mr. T
05-26-2015, 08:37 PM
Using Rodman, who was well past his prime is the same thing as saying LeBron played Shaq, Ray Allen, and Big Z and Antawn Jamison, the first 2 are Hall of Famers and the last 2 were all stars. That is a bad analogy.

Heck when Rodman played for the Bulls, he was cross dressing and getting married in a wedding dress, all he could do was rebound and defend, but was a headcase as well.

I loved Rodman, but he DEF wasn't in his prime during the last Bulls run. The point I was trying to make was that other than Pippen, Jordan didn't have another superstar on his team. LeBron needed 2 to finally win in the finals and even with 2 he didn't win every time. It sort of diminishes this accomplishment.

valade16
05-26-2015, 08:49 PM
He's playing in the East that's why. Out of the last 5 years I see him making it once out West.

He beat the best team in the West twice though lol

MagicBucsSox
05-26-2015, 09:27 PM
This is not a great accomplishment when you factor what the 60s Celtics accomplished

The need to suck off Lebron in this forum is beyond hilarious
Lmao there wasnt as many teams and the free agency of today,you done?

KG2TB
05-26-2015, 09:45 PM
I loved Rodman, but he DEF wasn't in his prime during the last Bulls run. The point I was trying to make was that other than Pippen, Jordan didn't have another superstar on his team. LeBron needed 2 to finally win in the finals and even with 2 he didn't win every time. It sort of diminishes this accomplishment.

Rodman was still great on those Bulls teams. His job was to rebound and defend and he did that as well as anyone. Furthermore, Pippen is an all-time great and one of the best, if not the best perimeter defender of all time who could also handle the ball and run the offense. We also had Kukoc off the bench who was a 6th man candidate pretty much every year and won it once. Not to mention, Phil Jackson was a pretty good coach. Not taking anything away from Mike, but he had elite coaching and an elite "robin" and a good supporting cast. The depth may not have been as great as some other all-time great teams, but hey, MJ is the goat for a reason.

krazylegz
05-26-2015, 11:38 PM
ttt

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 11:48 PM
I loved Rodman, but he DEF wasn't in his prime during the last Bulls run. The point I was trying to make was that other than Pippen, Jordan didn't have another superstar on his team. LeBron needed 2 to finally win in the finals and even with 2 he didn't win every time. It sort of diminishes this accomplishment.

No he didn't have another superstar. He had a bench guy who was more productive in the finals than Bosh in Kukoc though. He had Pippen playing at an elite level and outperforming Wade in the finals in every way on both ends of the court. He had Rodman who old or not was defending guys like Malone and Kemp a LOT better than Bosh looked against Duncan.

So yeah, Lebron did need guys nearly at the level of that supporting cast the Bulls had. 55 wins the minute Jordan left. The heat added Deng and Dragic and saw Whiteside improve and couldn't make the playoffs in today's eastern conference.

Bruno
05-26-2015, 11:50 PM
But the East is so damn bad.

LeBron has played in 20 first and second round playoff series dating back to 2006, the first post-season his team qualified.

70% of all first and second round opponents that LBJ lead teams have faced in the playoffs wouldn't have qualified for the post-season in the western conference in their given year (two of the six who would have qualified for the post-season in the western conference in their given year would have done so only as a result of tie-breakers; '10 Celtics, '12 Knicks). The twenty teams that LBJ lead Cavs/Heat teams have faced in the first and second round of the playoffs combine to have a 56.5% regular season winning percentage (909-699, if my maths not mistaken).

If you looked at Bryant, Duncan, and Dirk lead teams out west dating back to their playoff debuts, their opponents will be closer to having 65% regular season winning percentage. For Kobe specifically, 64.6% combined regular season winning percentage of all opponents faced in the first and second round (1421-779).

So if we compare the great eastern conference staple of this era (LeBron) with the great staples of the west (Kobe, Duncan) were talking about a 9% difference in winning percentage between opponents over the first two rounds on average. That's about a 7.5+ win difference between average opponents in favor of the west over the east.

If you make the discussion specific to the first round, LBJs opponents have had a combined regular season winning percentage of 50.2% (404-400 overall). For comparisons sakes, Kobes have had a 60.8 winning % (759-489). I haven't looked up Duncans yet.

I don't have to say it, but as we know teams in the east only had to play teams in the west twice. we can assume that the gap would grow if all teams had to play each other an equal number of times.

No disrespect to LBJ for making it to the finals five years in a row, it's amazing. But thats the context.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:02 AM
How many of you guys are neglecting that the WC is better because there are better players on a team? It's almost as if you think Curry is single handily leading the GSW because he's Curry or the fact you guys neglect that many teams on the East don't even have a single star whereas West has at least two.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 12:15 AM
LeBron has played in 20 first and second round playoff series dating back to 2006, the first post-season his team qualified.

70% of all first and second round opponents that LBJ lead teams have faced in the playoffs wouldn't have qualified for the post-season in the western conference in their given year (two of the six who would have qualified for the post-season in the western conference in their given year would have done so only as a result of tie-breakers; '10 Celtics, '12 Knicks). The twenty teams that LBJ lead Cavs/Heat teams have faced in the first and second round of the playoffs combine to have a 56.5% regular season winning percentage (909-699, if my maths not mistaken).

If you looked at Bryant, Duncan, and Dirk lead teams out west dating back to their playoff debuts, their opponents will be closer to having 65% regular season winning percentage. For Kobe specifically, 64.6% combined regular season winning percentage of all opponents faced in the first and second round (1421-779).

So if we compare the great eastern conference staple of this era (LeBron) with the great staples of the west (Kobe, Duncan) were talking about a 9% difference in winning percentage between opponents over the first two rounds on average. That's about a 7.5+ win difference between average opponents in favor of the west over the east.

If you make the discussion specific to the first round, LBJs opponents have had a combined regular season winning percentage of 50.2% (404-400 overall). For comparisons sakes, Kobes have had a 60.8 winning % (759-489). I haven't looked up Duncans yet.

I don't have to say it, but as we know teams in the east only had to play teams in the west twice. we can assume that the gap would grow if all teams had to play each other an equal number of times.

No disrespect to LBJ for making it to the finals five years in a row, it's amazing. But thats the context.

Go look at Lebrons record against the west in the regular season every year... He also beat 2 of the wests best teams in the finals twice and yes the west is better but guess what... all those teams have more talent around their superstar player... Example... The warriors played more comp than the cavs in the playoffs this year but curry has about 12 times the help James does... Do you see how that works? So if he was out West on any of those west teams he would have a **** ton of talent around him... Put curry on the cavs or any top star out west on the cavs and they dont beat the bulls... Put James on any team out west and take away their superstar and that team right now is in the finals.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 12:32 AM
How many of you guys are neglecting that the WC is better because there are better players on a team? It's almost as if you think Curry is single handily leading the GSW because he's Curry or the fact you guys neglect that many teams on the East don't even have a single star whereas West has at least two.

thats the point. conference parity and talent has been poorly distributed. this should be less a reflection on LeBron and more so a reflection on the NBAs playoff structuring and the politics of conferences and divisions. this system doesn't achieve ultimate competition. this has been the most boring conference finals round in recent history, meanwhile we had to watch the Spurs and Clippers exhaust each other in round one and now they're both out. how many years dating back to 2000 has the NBA championship been decided in a semi-final or conference finals? our system is anti-climatic.

the new CBA was supposed to help with parity top to bottom. and it's had an impact. but it's done nothing regarding the shift from west to east and imo its having a negative impact on how good the playoffs could be on the whole.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:35 AM
thats point. conference parity and talent has been poorly distributed. this should be less a reflection on LeBron and more so a reflection on the NBAs playoff structuring and the politics of conferences and divisions. this system doesn't achieve ultimate competition. this has been the most boring conference finals round in recent history, meanwhile we had to watch the Spurs and Clippers exhaust each other in round one and now they're both out. how many years dating back to 2000 has the NBA been championship been decided in a semi-final or conference finals? our system is anti-climatic.

the new CBA was supposed to help with parity top to bottom. and it's had an impact. but it's done nothing regarding the shift from west to east and imo its having a negative impact on how good the playoffs could be on the whole.

You'd have to argue that shift wouldn't be fair with the way the teams have been constructed; that's probably why this thing is a complicated issue. Western/Eastern conferences plan things differently. Many WC teams are going to compete for the Playoffs spots while many EC teams are going to compete for lottery spots. NBA does have to do something with this parity but this has been an issue for MANY years; not just this lone year.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:37 AM
Go look at Lebrons record against the west in the regular season every year... He also beat 2 of the wests best teams in the finals twice and yes the west is better but guess what... all those teams have more talent around their superstar player... Example... The warriors played more comp than the cavs in the playoffs this year but curry has about 12 times the help James does... Do you see how that works? So if he was out West on any of those west teams he would have a **** ton of talent around him... Put curry on the cavs or any top star out west on the cavs and they dont beat the bulls... Put James on any team out west and take away their superstar and that team right now is in the finals.

http://i.gyazo.com/28c2eca870f0df4fbddfb87caea1fb79.png

His numbers are actually better vs the WC and idk the record vs those teams but I do remember there were many seasons in which LeBron's team fared better vs the WC than the EC.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 12:37 AM
Go look at Lebrons record against the west in the regular season every year.... if you present that information ill take a look at it. LBJs teams have always had great regular season records, so that wouldn't be a surprise. BUT- head to head match ups in the regular season aren't the same thing as best of sevens in the playoffs. For example the Hawks were 3-1 against the Cavs in the regular season this year. we just saw tonight how that worked out for Atlanta.


He also beat 2 of the wests best teams in the finals twice and yes the west is better but guess what... all those teams have more talent around their superstar player... Example... The warriors played more comp than the cavs in the playoffs this year but curry has about 12 times the help James does
exactly.


... Do you see how that works?
everyone does.


So if he was out West on any of those west teams he would have a **** ton of talent around him... Put curry on the cavs or any top star out west on the cavs and they dont beat the bulls... Put James on any team out west and take away their superstar and that team right now is in the finals.
exactly.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 12:41 AM
http://i.gyazo.com/28c2eca870f0df4fbddfb87caea1fb79.png

His numbers are actually better vs the WC and idk the record vs those teams but I do remember there were many seasons in which LeBron's team fared better vs the WC than the EC.

the point of my bigger post up top isn't that LBJs teams weren't better than the first and second round tier teams he would have faced in the west, i'm sure his record against them would be positive. but he wouldn't be playing a .500 ball club in round one either, so it's about endurance and exhaustion on the way to the finals. of course he'd slay a lot of those teams out west, but it would cost him physically. teams like '15 Boston, '13 Bucks, '13 Nets, '11 Phili aren't going to take the same tole. and this is all cumulative, were talking over five years, stuff like that adds up.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 12:41 AM
. if you present that information ill take a look at it. LBJs teams have always had great regular season records, so that wouldn't be a surprise. BUT- head to head match ups in the regular season aren't the same thing as best of sevens in the playoffs. For example the Hawks were 3-1 against the Cavs in the regular season this year. we just saw tonight how that worked out for Atlanta.


exactly.


everyone does.


exactly.

yea im not taking a shot at you but its the same 3 or 4 poster that try to **** on him for being in the East but do not realize any of this information lol

Bruno
05-27-2015, 12:47 AM
You'd have to argue that shift wouldn't be fair with the way the teams have been constructed; that's probably why this thing is a complicated issue.
Its complicated but I think they could work it out. I like a straight 16 more than saying that Memphis and New Orleans should join the east.


Western/Eastern conferences plan things differently. Many WC teams are going to compete for the Playoffs spots while many EC teams are going to compete for lottery spots. NBA does have to do something with this parity but this has been an issue for MANY years; not just this lone year.
If I didn't think it was having a negative impact on entertainment and competition in the playoffs I wouldn't care. I hate seeing SA/LAC in round one because Portland got bumped up on divisional technicality. I hate seeing Russell Westbrook stay at home while we have to watch the Celtics get throttled by the Cavs. there are examples of stuff like this every post season this year it was just especially obvious.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:48 AM
the point of my bigger post up top isn't that LBJs teams weren't better than the first and second round tier teams he would have faced in the west, i'm sure his record against them would be positive. but he wouldn't be playing a .500 ball club in round one either, so it's about endurance and exhaustion on the way to the finals. of course he'd slay a lot of those teams out west, but it would cost him physically. teams like '15 Boston, '13 Bucks, '13 Nets, '11 Phili aren't going to take the same tole. and this is all cumulative, were talking over five years, stuff like that adds up.

But here's the thing: James wouldn't have to be so good if he had the teams that some guys out on the West have. LAC, GSW, DAL, MEM, POR, OKC, SPUR; these guys are loaded. More-so than any other team out in the East. Even when we look at the East vs West All-Star game, it is incredibly unbalanced out there. Heck, there are probably more than ten snubbed players from the West who could give the ten best players from the East a run for their money. I understand where you are coming from that the West is just more competitive in every aspect but let's stick a prime Bron in that GSW team and THEN tell me he wouldn't make the Finals.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 12:49 AM
yea im not taking a shot at you but its the same 3 or 4 poster that try to **** on him for being in the East but do not realize any of this information lol

oh for sure. i didn't mean to make my big conference disparity post to be a shot on LBJ. it's the system thats the problem, imo. LBJ probably could have proven his greatness even further if he was slaying the western greats in the post-season every year on his way to the finals representing the west. especially if there's no mega talent to replace him out east.

KG2TB
05-27-2015, 01:06 AM
How many of you guys are neglecting that the WC is better because there are better players on a team? It's almost as if you think Curry is single handily leading the GSW because he's Curry or the fact you guys neglect that many teams on the East don't even have a single star whereas West has at least two.

Flastbolt...holy ****, we agree! What Curry is doing is UNBELIEVABLE! I'm not taking anything away from him...but if Bron had a roster loaded up like the Warriors do...I would wager that his team would be tops in the league. The Warriors coaching staff is phenomenal. Their roster is phenomenal. To be honest, if Curry keeps this up for 5+ seasons, you can't deny him his due when it comes to all-time greats. But the fact is, a change in coaching staff happened and his team is simply dominating. You can't discredit coaching....but you can't diminish individual player performance either. I do hold championships in high regard in terms of all time ranking...however, it's not the be all end all for me. You have to use context. Kobe has 5 rings but I think Lebron is easily the better player. Yes, easily...

Bruno
05-27-2015, 01:06 AM
But here's the thing: James wouldn't have to be so good if he had the teams that some guys out on the West have. LAC, GSW, DAL, MEM, POR, OKC, SPUR; these guys are loaded.
I agree. and the catch of that is how big of a load does LBJ carry as a result of having more talented teammates, and are his totals any less impressive because he's splitting responsibility. but of course the efficiency goes up too.


More-so than any other team out in the East. Even when we look at the East vs West All-Star game, it is incredibly unbalanced out there. right.


Heck, there are probably more than ten snubbed players from the West who could give the ten best players from the East a run for their money. I understand where you are coming from that the West is just more competitive in every aspect but let's stick a prime Bron in that GSW team and THEN tell me he wouldn't make the Finals.

Yeah, I think he'd still be there. I think in that scenario its likely that he has less finals appearances, but more championships. In that scenario the arch of his career changes from can he carry a team to the finals to, can he figure out a way to get his mega talent to mesh and fit in with other superstars effectively. Remember in 2011 when Wade was still in top form and LeBron probably had his best ever supporting cast, he struggled to fit in and share responsibility with Wade. He averaged 17 points in the finals because he struggles with sharing the reigns, he's too good for it. In this scenario the arch would be how does he mesh with another great talent without going 2011 Mavs in the process. I'm sure he would have figured it out. but it changes everything, and maybe he becomes more comparable to a guy like Kobe who played a portion of his career behind or beside another great player, as opposed to outright leading a team. especially when LBJ was younger, obviously this version of LBJ would be the leader on any team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 01:07 AM
oh for sure. i didn't mean to make my big conference disparity post to be a shot on LBJ. it's the system thats the problem, imo. LBJ probably could have proven his greatness even further if he was slaying the western greats in the post-season every year on his way to the finals representing the west. especially if there's no mega talent to replace him out east.
If he did that, then all the praise that gets heaped onto him would be justified. But because you and everyone else sees that he's playing crap competition to no fault of his own, it is easy to disparage what he is doing right now.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:12 AM
If he did that, then all the praise that gets heaped onto him would be justified. But because you and everyone else sees that he's playing crap competition to no fault of his own, it is easy to disparage what he is doing right now.

Not sure what you're implying here but the hate goes far into more dimensions than because he's not in the WC. They blame him for leaving Cleveland and then blame him for COMING back to Cleveland. The guy just gets a lot of hate like other greats in sports have gotten in this media centric age we live in. I guarantee MJ wouldn't have the same aura if he played today. Could you imagine if Bron decided to retire from basketball after this season to play baseball? The amount of hatred he would get would be off the charts to people claiming he quit because he couldn't win.

kobe4thewinbang
05-27-2015, 01:14 AM
LeBron James will go down as one of the best players in the NBA. Congrats to him. He makes every team a winner.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 01:22 AM
If he did that, then all the praise that gets heaped onto him would be justified. But because you and everyone else sees that he's playing crap competition to no fault of his own, it is easy to disparage what he is doing right now.

agreed.

Bruno
05-27-2015, 01:22 AM
Not sure what you're implying here but the hate goes far into more dimensions than because he's not in the WC. They blame him for leaving Cleveland and then blame him for COMING back to Cleveland. The guy just gets a lot of hate like other greats in sports have gotten in this media centric age we live in. I guarantee MJ wouldn't have the same aura if he played today. Could you imagine if Bron decided to retire from basketball after this season to play baseball? The amount of hatred he would get would be off the charts to people claiming he quit because he couldn't win.

I don't think you can compare the two only because MJ had already won three in a row before he decided to leave. they never could have or would have said he quit.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:25 AM
I don't think you can compare the two only because MJ had already won three in a row before he decided to leave. they never could have or would have said he quit.

Certainly, but let's assume Michael loses. Will the public be as bashful if say, Bron loses and says I'm going to play in the NFL?

Bruno
05-27-2015, 01:31 AM
Certainly, but let's assume Michael loses. Will the public be as bashful if say, Bron loses and says I'm going to play in the NFL?

haha, does he play for the Browns?

social media era for sure plays a big part. and MJ was protected.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 01:35 AM
If he did that, then all the praise that gets heaped onto him would be justified. But because you and everyone else sees that he's playing crap competition to no fault of his own, it is easy to disparage what he is doing right now.

But its unjust... He is playing Lesser teams with lesser talent on his side of the ball. If he is out west right now any playoff team and maybe a few non playoff teams he would be on would have more talent than this cavs team even with love and kyrie.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 01:48 AM
LeBron has played in 20 first and second round playoff series dating back to 2006, the first post-season his team qualified.

70% of all first and second round opponents that LBJ lead teams have faced in the playoffs wouldn't have qualified for the post-season in the western conference in their given year (two of the six who would have qualified for the post-season in the western conference in their given year would have done so only as a result of tie-breakers; '10 Celtics, '12 Knicks). The twenty teams that LBJ lead Cavs/Heat teams have faced in the first and second round of the playoffs combine to have a 56.5% regular season winning percentage (909-699, if my maths not mistaken).

If you looked at Bryant, Duncan, and Dirk lead teams out west dating back to their playoff debuts, their opponents will be closer to having 65% regular season winning percentage. For Kobe specifically, 64.6% combined regular season winning percentage of all opponents faced in the first and second round (1421-779).

So if we compare the great eastern conference staple of this era (LeBron) with the great staples of the west (Kobe, Duncan) were talking about a 9% difference in winning percentage between opponents over the first two rounds on average. That's about a 7.5+ win difference between average opponents in favor of the west over the east.

If you make the discussion specific to the first round, LBJs opponents have had a combined regular season winning percentage of 50.2% (404-400 overall). For comparisons sakes, Kobes have had a 60.8 winning % (759-489). I haven't looked up Duncans yet.

I don't have to say it, but as we know teams in the east only had to play teams in the west twice. we can assume that the gap would grow if all teams had to play each other an equal number of times.

No disrespect to LBJ for making it to the finals five years in a row, it's amazing. But thats the context.
Good research. But you have to remember not all teams records are created equal. If they had balanced schedules, the east teams would not win a tie breaker because they would of had a worse record to begin with. Not all 500 teams are equal

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 02:00 AM
But its unjust... He is playing Lesser teams with lesser talent on his side of the ball. If he is out west right now any playoff team and maybe a few non playoff teams he would be on would have more talent than this cavs team even with love and kyrie.
Thats the issue. People are heaping praises on him for beating bad teams. But they are quick to say that Lebron is "doing it by himself" while ignoring the fact that his competition has been doing it by themselves all year due to having crappy teamates. Al Horford is the best player on the Hawks lol. Does he have a guy as good as Kyrie? I won't mention Love, he's not playing. Bulls are pretty good. That was a nice win. But the Celtics? Have no business being in the playoffs. Who was the Heats biggest competition in the east? A team lead by Paul George? Don't get me wrong, he's a nice player but an all timer he is not.

Lebron is a varsity player beating up the JV. But when he plays other varsity players, it's not so easy.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:11 AM
Thats the issue. People are heaping praises on him for beating bad teams. But they are quick to say that Lebron is "doing it by himself" while ignoring the fact that his competition has been doing it by themselves all year due to having crappy teamates. Al Horford is the best player on the Hawks lol. Does he have a guy as good as Kyrie? I won't mention Love, he's not playing. Bulls are pretty good. That was a nice win. But the Celtics? Have no business being in the playoffs. Who was the Hears buggest competition in the east? A team lead by Paul George? Don't get me wrong, he's a nice player but an all timer he is not.

Lebron is a varsity player beating up the JV. But when he plays other varsity players, it's not so easy.

I think what you're confusing everything with is the greatness that is, LeBron James. He turns teams better than they are because he's SO good. I hate to bring it up but that Miami Heat team looked God awful all season without Bron. Do you think they will be in the Finals if we took Deng out and put James back there? They would BEAT the Warriors with the way Whiteside has been playing and assuming they of course, have Dragic as well. Contrary to what people think, James Miami Heat squad is probably better than the Cavs squad without Bron. Is there a single person who thinks the Cavs make the playoffs anymore than the Heat do if Bron is gone? Al Horford is the best player on a team that has many good players. Bad example to use here but Bulls also have a very well rounded roster; they just were outplayed by the Cavs. Bulls certainly had the team to beat them. And it is a bad example to use Kyrie... Teague has been better than Kyrie the two games that Kyrie played in. No question about that. 1st round is a joke, we all know that.. But Cavs lost their third best player and leading rebounder. That was hardly an "easy" series for them to go through if you consider that they lost a huge piece in doing so. But let's look at the other teams he faced when he was in Miami:

Boston
Pacers
Bulls

Each of those teams were competitive. Boston gave Bron a fight in 2012, down 3-2 playing in Boston. Pacers always gave the Heat a battle.. if James didn't score that game winning layup in game 1 last year, the Pacers would have won the series. Bulls are always a tough team, idc who you are. Those years, they put up a fight regardless of who played. Like I said, though. It's easy to point fingers now but when he plays in the West with a more stacked roster and then advances to the Finals, his record in the NBA Finals would be at a much higher rate. Didn't Shaq/Kobe pummel the weak Pacers/Nets squad? You can't possibly tell me those two teams were any better than the Boston/Pacers/Bulls teams that LeBron played again. So let's have a stacked LeBron team in the West vs the Pacers. Truth be told, Bron allows for the Finals to at least, be competitive. If not Bron, who goes to the Finals in the East? Derrick Rose? Paul George?

PowerHouse
05-27-2015, 02:18 AM
5 straight Finals appearances, the last two with two different squads. Hasn't been done in the modern era of hoops, not even by Magics Showtime Lakers or Boston's dynasty. 1st player to do so with different teams in any era. Many will point to the east being pathetic as the reason but just like I don't believe in giving passes for L's I don't believe in taking away from great accomplishments.

In the grand basketball scheme of things how remarkable of a accomplishment is this?

Technically Lebron isnt alone with this. Its him and James Jones. lmao.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 02:19 AM
Thats the issue. People are heaping praises on him for beating bad teams. But they are quick to say that Lebron is "doing it by himself" while ignoring the fact that his competition has been doing it by themselves all year due to having crappy teamates. Al Horford is the best player on the Hawks lol. Does he have a guy as good as Kyrie? I won't mention Love, he's not playing. Bulls are pretty good. That was a nice win. But the Celtics? Have no business being in the playoffs. Who was the Heats biggest competition in the east? A team lead by Paul George? Don't get me wrong, he's a nice player but an all timer he is not.

Lebron is a varsity player beating up the JV. But when he plays other varsity players, it's not so easy.

I dont disagree about the celtics... first round in the East is a joke... Bulls and Hawks were legit wins... I thought the hawks would win in 6 and right now have the better all around team even though they got swept... With Love/Kyrie the cavs are the better team but James beat the hawks with nobody... Hawks all of a sudden were a joke after everyone picked them and they lost.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 02:20 AM
Not sure what you're implying here but the hate goes far into more dimensions than because he's not in the WC. They blame him for leaving Cleveland and then blame him for COMING back to Cleveland. The guy just gets a lot of hate like other greats in sports have gotten in this media centric age we live in. I guarantee MJ wouldn't have the same aura if he played today. Could you imagine if Bron decided to retire from basketball after this season to play baseball? The amount of hatred he would get would be off the charts to people claiming he quit because he couldn't win.
I wouldn't say is hate that he isn't playing in the WC. It's context. People are shoving 5 times in a row in the finals down your throat and your supposed to just swallow it and say thank you may i have another without remembering that he has twice stacked the deck in his favor to beat easy competition. Now, it's right if him to stack the deck if he wants to win a ring. That's when he needed these great teamates. But not only does he have the best talent around him in the east, hes playing very bad to mediocre teams. If he was 3-2 in the finals, getting by in a weak conference would be a mute point. But since he is 2-3 and one second from being 1-4 and about two weeks from being 1-5 against other staked teams, people don't care if his teams beat up on the Sisters of Mercy basketball squad. We just chalk it up to easy competition.

TylerSL
05-27-2015, 02:21 AM
He's the defining star of this generation and is easily a top 10 player all time, making the case for top 5. He also happens to be in a relatively weak Eastern Conference. Him on the team alone is good enough to get his team to the Finals and that has been the case since 2012. I'm not saying that as a slight but the last 4 years its been Lebron>>>>Eastern Conference field. I know this is now 5 trips to the Finals but Dwyane Wade did a lot in 2011 with Miami. 1 man>1 conference is unprecedented and the combination of Lebron's greatness and the lack of major talent (there are a several good teams, no great teams in the East) in the Conference is what has made this possible. The reason he doesn't win the NBA Championship every year as well is because there are great teams in the Western Conference. Basically, nobody can beat him in the Eastern Conference and it really depends on the match up in the Finals whether or not he wins.

I've said it all postseason I really doubt the Cavaliers will be able to defeat the Warriors (I predict Golden State in 5 over Cleveland) but Lebron IMO should be able to play at this level for another 3 or 4 years. Whether he makes the Finals each of the next 3 or 4 years will be determined whether anyone in the East could finally top him. In order for that to happen there needs to be a fundamental change in the power structure in the NBA.

This is who Lebron is and the Eastern Conference can't beat him. If he was in the West he would not be going to his 6th NBA Finals, but if he was in the West, the WCF would basically be the NBA Finals because he wouldn't lose to the East in the Finals. His Finals resume would be unblemished if he was going against the Eastern Conference Champions instead of Western Conference Champions and he'd still be a 2 or 3x Champ regardless. He just wouldn't dominate the conference like nobody else has ever done.

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Lebron finished his career something like 9 NBA Finals trips (7 consecutive), 4 NBA Championships, 4 Finals MVP's, 5 League MVP awards, 18 All Star appearances, 18 All-NBA teams, 9 All-Defensive teams, All-Time Points Leader, Top 5 Games Played All-Time, Top 10 Assists All-Time, Top 20 Steals All-Time, Top 50 Rebounds All-Time, and Top 100 Blocks All-Time. No, that's not 7 NBA championships and an unblemished Finals resume, but that's easily one of the most decorated resume's ever. You can put that next to Jordan's and have a debate.

Note-Spare me the whole "Celtics won 11 titles in 13 years" crap. This a 30 team league, not 8 and 12. Winning a championship in the 10's>>>>>>>>>>>>winning a championship in the 60's.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 02:26 AM
He's the defining star of this generation and is easily a top 10 player all time, making the case for top 5. He also happens to be in a relatively weak Eastern Conference. Him on the team alone is good enough to get his team to the Finals and that has been the case since 2012. I'm not saying that as a slight but the last 4 years its been Lebron>>>>Eastern Conference field. I know this is now 5 trips to the Finals but Dwyane Wade did a lot in 2011 with Miami. 1 man>1 conference is unprecedented and the combination of Lebron's greatness and the lack of major talent (there are a several good teams, no great teams in the East) in the Conference is what has made this possible. The reason he doesn't win the NBA Championship every year as well is because there are great teams in the Western Conference. Basically, nobody can beat him in the Eastern Conference and it really depends on the match up in the Finals whether or not he wins.

I've said it all postseason I really doubt the Cavaliers will be able to defeat the Warriors (I predict Golden State in 5 over Cleveland) but Lebron IMO should be able to play at this level for another 3 or 4 years. Whether he makes the Finals each of the next 3 or 4 years will be determined whether anyone in the East could finally top him. In order for that to happen there needs to be a fundamental change in the power structure in the NBA.

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Lebron finished his career something like 9 NBA Finals trips (7 consecutive), 4 NBA Championships, 4 Finals MVP's, 5 League MVP awards, 18 All Star appearances, 18 All-NBA teams, 9 All-Defensive teams, All-Time Points Leader, Top 5 Games Played All-Time, Top 10 Assists All-Time, Top 20 Steals All-Time, Top 50 Rebounds All-Time, and Top 100 Blocks All-Time. No, that's not 7 NBA championships and an unblemished Finals resume, but that's easily one of the most decorated resume's ever. You can put that next to Jordan's and have a debate.

Spot on

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 02:27 AM
Warriors won 67 games this year, they're stacked but exceeded expectation, they just accomplished one of the best team seasons in NBA history. Replace curry with Lebron, how many more games do they win? Would they break the Bulls record? How much better could they be? 75, 80 games? Or is curry's historic NBA long ball shooting a big part of the Warriors success, with spacing and flow he provides?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 02:29 AM
I dont disagree about the celtics... first round in the East is a joke... Bulls and Hawks were legit wins... I thought the hawks would win in 6 and right now have the better all around team even though they got swept... With Love/Kyrie the cavs are the better team but James beat the hawks with nobody... Hawks all of a sudden were a joke after everyone picked them and they lost.

But the Hawks had a weak bench to begin with. They have lost Thabo, Horford for a game, a hobbled Carroll, and Korver for the whole series. They already came into the series without a star, and have been struggling for months now. Even before all their best guys went down, if you really bet on them.... ouch.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:31 AM
I wouldn't say is hate that he isn't playing in the WC. It's context. People are shoving 5 times in a row in the finals down your throat and your supposed to just swallow it and say thank you may i have another without remembering that he has twice stacked the deck in his favor to beat easy competition. Now, it's right if him to stack the deck if he wants to win a ring. That's when he needed these great teamates. But not only does he have the best talent around him in the east, hes playing very bad to mediocre teams. If he was 3-2 in the finals, getting by in a weak conference would be a mute point. But since he is 2-3 and one second from being 1-4 and about two weeks from being 1-5 against other staked teams, people don't care if his teams beat up on the Sisters of Mercy basketball squad. We just chalk it up to easy competition.

I'm done. Tried to be nice but I don't think you understand that you're incredibly biased. Bulls/Hawks are far from a bad/mediocre team. LeBron is so much better than the other superstars in the East that it seems as if it's stacked on his favor. I even gave you an example; how is Miami's roster without Bron those four seasons better than the Bulls roster without Rose those four seasons? What about Celtics? How were they better at all? And then this year happened. Heat sucked, bad. So how did James stack it in his favor when the Heat were exposed this season? Better yet, you say that he stacked it for Cleveland this season as well. Buddy, their three best players currently besides Bron right now are Thompson, J.R., and Shumpert -- guys who had nothing going for them until they played with Bron. Take out Horford from the Hawks. Is Thompson, J.R., and Shump better than Korver, Milsap, and Teague? Hell no. Put Bron in the Hawks with that roster and you're going to backtrack and tell me, the Hawks are stacked but when the Cavs beat them, they are a bad/mediocre team? Because you have LeBron. That's the end of it. I know it is hard for you to understand that one player can make such an impact but we've seen it his entire career. Leaves Cleveland, for four years, they had the worst record for any four year span of a basketball franchise. Leaves Miami, they can't even make the playoffs after going to the NBA Finals for four straight years. Goes back to Cleveland and takes his team to the NBA Finals without Kyrie/Love. There is a pattern here and it is simple: He is a great player who makes teams look stacked.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:33 AM
Warriors won 67 games this year, they're stacked but exceeded expectation, they just accomplished one of the best team seasons in NBA history. Replace curry with Lebron, how many more games do they win? Would they break the Bulls record? How much better could they be? 75, 80 games? Or is curry's historic NBA long ball shooting a big part of the Warriors success, with spacing and flow he provides?

Would they have that record? Probably not because Warriors do depend on that shooting. But would they be a better team? Yes. You can be a better team without having the better record. Were the Houston Rockets really the third best team in the NBA this season?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 02:34 AM
He's the defining star of this generation and is easily a top 10 player all time, making the case for top 5. He also happens to be in a relatively weak Eastern Conference. Him on the team alone is good enough to get his team to the Finals and that has been the case since 2012. I'm not saying that as a slight but the last 4 years its been Lebron>>>>Eastern Conference field. I know this is now 5 trips to the Finals but Dwyane Wade did a lot in 2011 with Miami. 1 man>1 conference is unprecedented and the combination of Lebron's greatness and the lack of major talent (there are a several good teams, no great teams in the East) in the Conference is what has made this possible. The reason he doesn't win the NBA Championship every year as well is because there are great teams in the Western Conference. Basically, nobody can beat him in the Eastern Conference and it really depends on the match up in the Finals whether or not he wins.

I've said it all postseason I really doubt the Cavaliers will be able to defeat the Warriors (I predict Golden State in 5 over Cleveland) but Lebron IMO should be able to play at this level for another 3 or 4 years. Whether he makes the Finals each of the next 3 or 4 years will be determined whether anyone in the East could finally top him. In order for that to happen there needs to be a fundamental change in the power structure in the NBA.

This is who Lebron is and the Eastern Conference can't beat him. If he was in the West he would not be going to his 6th NBA Finals, but if he was in the West, the WCF would basically be the NBA Finals because he wouldn't lose to the East in the Finals. His Finals resume would be unblemished if he was going against the Eastern Conference Champions instead of Western Conference Champions and he'd still be a 2 or 3x Champ regardless. He just wouldn't dominate the conference like nobody else has ever done.gy

I honestly wouldn't be shocked if Lebron finished his career something like 9 NBA Finals trips (7 consecutive), 4 NBA Championships, 4 Finals MVP's, 5 League MVP awards, 18 All Star appearances, 18 All-NBA teams, 9 All-Defensive teams, All-Time Points Leader, Top 5 Games Played All-Time, Top 10 Assists All-Time, Top 20 Steals All-Time, Top 50 Rebounds All-Time, and Top 100 Blocks All-Time. No, that's not 7 NBA championships and an unblemished Finals resume, but that's easily one of the most decorated resume's ever. You can put that next to Jordan's and have a debate.

Note-Spare me the whole "Celtics won 11 titles in 13 years" crap. This a 30 team league, not 8 and 12. Winning a championship in the 10's>>>>>>>>>>>>winning a championship in the 60's.

Good post

TylerSL
05-27-2015, 02:35 AM
Warriors won 67 games this year, they're stacked but exceeded expectation, they just accomplished one of the best team seasons in NBA history. Replace curry with Lebron, how many more games do they win? Would they break the Bulls record? How much better could they be? 75, 80 games? Or is curry's historic NBA long ball shooting a big part of the Warriors success, with spacing and flow he provides?

Golden State with Lebron would be MUCH different then they are now, but I think they would be similar in record with either. They have so many shooters on the team led by Curry and Thompson and space the floor so well they just light teams up. With Lebron and not Curry, that team would be more like the Heat were. Lebron would dominate the ball and his 3 point shooters would space the floor so Lebron could literally do whatever he wanted and he would be mega efficient, as he was with the Heat.

The teams would be VERY different, but would have similar results IMO.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 02:38 AM
Warriors won 67 games this year, they're stacked but exceeded expectation, they just accomplished one of the best team seasons in NBA history. Replace curry with Lebron, how many more games do they win? Would they break the Bulls record? How much better could they be? 75, 80 games? Or is curry's historic NBA long ball shooting a big part of the Warriors success, with spacing and flow he provides?

Probably not a difference in record but they would be in the finals and if he was on the cavs they would have lost to the bulls.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 02:40 AM
Would they have that record? Probably not because Warriors do depend on that shooting. But would they be a better team? Yes. You can be a better team without having the better record. Were the Houston Rockets really the third best team in the NBA this season?

I think the rockets proved they were, or at least 4th best. They're currently still in the wcf and that's with harden having about the same or less roster production/support than James has had out east. Harden is doing exactly what James is but in the west, only difference is he had tougher comp and ran into the Warriors. Had they been out east, they would be in the ecf and probably have a pretty good series goin with cavs right now. I'm just sayin, there's players out there I think you could replace James with and still be headed to the finals out east right now. I think durant is the obvious one, but I also think Davis can lead that squad to the finals out east. Probably not as decisive as James has, but the result would be the same. James is not head n shoulders above every NBA player anymore, from 10-13 he was, but players have closed the gap. And that's good for the NBA

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:44 AM
Serious question, would the Hawks be stacked if we take Teague and replace him with LeBron? We're calling the Hawks a bad team and saying how the hell did they make the ECF but what would a roster of:

LeBron
Milsap
Horford
Korver
Shroder

really be perceived as? Let's assume this team plays the Cavs at their current state but we add Jimmy Butler there. Hawks beat the Cavs. Are we going to say that Cavs team was bad? I mean, we're saying it is stacked right now, aren't we?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 02:47 AM
I'm done. Tried to be nice but I don't think you understand that you're incredibly biased. Bulls/Hawks are far from a bad/mediocre team. LeBron is so much better than the other superstars in the East that it seems as if it's stacked on his favor. I even gave you an example; how is Miami's roster without Bron those four seasons better than the Bulls roster without Rose those four seasons? What about Celtics? How were they better at all? And then this year happened. Heat sucked, bad. So how did James stack it in his favor when the Heat were exposed this season? Better yet, you say that he stacked it for Cleveland this season as well. Buddy, their three best players currently besides Bron right now are Thompson, J.R., and Shumpert -- guys who had nothing going for them until they played with Bron. Take out Horford from the Hawks. Is Thompson, J.R., and Shump better than Korver, Milsap, and Teague? Hell no. Put Bron in the Hawks with that roster and you're going to backtrack and tell me, the Hawks are stacked but when the Cavs beat them, they are a bad/mediocre team? Because you have LeBron. That's the end of it. I know it is hard for you to understand that one player can make such an impact but we've seen it his entire career. Leaves Cleveland, for four years, they had the worst record for any four year span of a basketball franchise. Leaves Miami, they can't even make the playoffs after going to the NBA Finals for four straight years. Goes back to Cleveland and takes his team to the NBA Finals without Kyrie/Love. There is a pattern here and it is simple: He is a great player who makes teams look stacked.

I said the Bulls series was a nice win even if the series turned when Pau went down. You can read my above post regarding the wounded Hawks.
I have stated many times in here that Lebron is a varsity player playing the JV. Im not arguing he's not great. Im saying that the talent disbursement throughout the league is a joke. 5 times in a row to the finals is inconsequential because we know their is nobody out there that can compete with him. His bread is not buttered out there. He has to do it vs good teams to get the full credit he deserves.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:52 AM
I think the rockets proved they were, or at least 4th best. They're currently still in the wcf and that's with harden having about the same or less roster production/support than James has had out east. Harden is doing exactly what James is but in the west, only difference is he had tougher comp and ran into the Warriors. Had they been out east, they would be in the ecf and probably have a pretty good series goin with cavs right now. I'm just sayin, there's players out there I think you could replace James with and still be headed to the finals out east right now. I think durant is the obvious one, but I also think Davis can lead that squad to the finals out east. Probably not as decisive as James has, but the result would be the same. James is not head n shoulders above every NBA player anymore, from 10-13 he was, but players have closed the gap. And that's good for the NBA

None of the guys you mentioned can rebound, pass, score, and defend the way James can. That's why Cavs have made it so far despite losing so much. James has done what needed to be done when it mattered. Love out? His RPG went up. Kyrie down? His APG went up. Scoring down from losing Love/Irving? He took it upon himself to become more aggressive and thus, took shots that he normally doesn't take. Defense? Look no further. Dude defended Milsap on one play on the post and literally, the next Hawks possession he was chasing Teague. So again, I doubt Davis would be able to carry that load. KD can score but he doesn't do what James can on the court. Funny you mention KD/Davis because those two guys are two of the best talents we have ever seen. They aren't scrubs. If both guys continue with their careers, they are going down as top 20 players easily. But again, the Rockets are not the fourth best team... let's get real. That's why many had Harden for MVP -- because it was kinda crazy how he was able to carry that team with Howard gone. Spurs/GSW/Clippers (lost/choked but they were clearly a better team), Memphis, Hawks, and Cleveland were better IMO. Even now, who the hell expected the Rockets to get this far? I had them getting beat by Mavs because Harden's reputation for sucking in the postseason.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 02:54 AM
Serious question, would the Hawks be stacked if we take Teague and replace him with LeBron? We're calling the Hawks a bad team and saying how the hell did they make the ECF but what would a roster of:

LeBron
Milsap
Horford
Korver
Shroder
really be perceived as? Let's assume this team plays the Cavs at their current state but we add Jimmy Butler there. Hawks beat the Cavs. Are we going to say that Cavs team was bad? I mean, we're saying it is stacked right now, aren't we?

Do we remove Korver from the equation because he s been done since the series began? I say they get out of the east and get their doors blown off by the Warriors

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:57 AM
I said the Bulls series was a nice win even if the series turned when Pau went down. You can read my above post regarding the wounded Hawks.
I have stated many times in here that Lebron is a varsity player playing the JV. Im not arguing he's not great. Im saying that the talent disbursement throughout the league is a joke. 5 times in a row to the finals is inconsequential because we know their is nobody out there that can compete with him. His bread is not buttered out there. He has to do it vs good teams to get the full credit he deserves.

James with KD/Harden/Ibaka makes the Finals 5x, no doubt in my mind. James with Spurs (take out Kawhi), makes the Finals 5x. James with the Warriors this season? Finals, no doubt in my mind. And not only that, since the EC sucks, James would be UNDEFEATED in the Finals. Can't have it both ways.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 02:58 AM
Leading a team to 5 straight finals appearances is something only a top 10 player of all-time could do.

Maybe top 3

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:01 AM
Do we remove Korver from the equation because he s been done since the series began? I say they get out of the east and get their doors blown off by the Warriors

Sure, take him out but that's not my argument. My argument is that everyone likes to say James teams are stacked but it only happens when he beats them. When he loses, it's because he quit or he sucks or he didn't do this/that. Like I said, Jimmy Butler doesn't carry that Cleveland team anywhere. Heck, even with Love/Irving/Butler, Hawks will still sweep them. How many people had the Hawks beating the Warriors? Well, if James is on that Hawks team instead of Teague and everyone is 100% healthy, they are probably going to beat them.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:01 AM
I was about to say damn I've been accused of being plenty of things but whoa!.....

I'm glad your seeing first hand how bad the hate is. For someone to call you of all people that?...Its hate on a incomprehensible level.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:05 AM
It's not as impressive if he did it out of the west but it's still an impressive feat. Getting to the finals 5 years in a row is still an accomplishment.

There is no other player in the league that could of done this. Period

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:06 AM
To funny ... magic went to the finals 8 of his first 10 years...

He missed in 1981 in a 3 game series (which would never happen under todays rules) after missing 45 straight games leading up to the playoffs..

He missed in 1986 after again suffering a knee injury In February that year...

context please... context

To be fair, he did say elite durability, which highlights the reason why Magic failed, so context was taken into consideration.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 03:06 AM
James with KD/Harden/Ibaka makes the Finals 5x, no doubt in my mind. James with Spurs (take out Kawhi), makes the Finals 5x. James with the Warriors this season? Finals, no doubt in my mind. And not only that, since the EC sucks, James would be UNDEFEATED in the Finals. Can't have it both ways.

Holy bejesus. Salary cap be dammed. I guess the Thunders owner is no longer cheap and pays Harden Max money if Lebron is there?

Spurs go into the luxury tax for the first time ever?

Who do the Warriors cut to accommodate Lebrons salary thus weakening the team.

And if we are giving Lebron any team he wants, can i just add Anthony Davis to the Clippers and watch them go at it?

Lebron would have a better winning % in the finals. Wouldn't get there nearly as much. Which is my ENTIRE POINT OF EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD. What is it you think I'm trying to say?

GoferKing_
05-27-2015, 03:08 AM
Pff. LBJ making a power team in Miami with Wade and Bosh, no history there, with the squad they had this is no accomplishment, they were expected to make it all way to the finals year after year. And he plays in the East, which is a joke conference.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 03:10 AM
None of the guys you mentioned can rebound, pass, score, and defend the way James can. That's why Cavs have made it so far despite losing so much. James has done what needed to be done when it mattered. Love out? His RPG went up. Kyrie down? His APG went up. Scoring down from losing Love/Irving? He took it upon himself to become more aggressive and thus, took shots that he normally doesn't take. Defense? Look no further. Dude defended Milsap on one play on the post and literally, the next Hawks possession he was chasing Teague. So again, I doubt Davis would be able to carry that load. KD can score but he doesn't do what James can on the court. Funny you mention KD/Davis because those two guys are two of the best talents we have ever seen. They aren't scrubs. If both guys continue with their careers, they are going down as top 20 players easily. But again, the Rockets are not the fourth best team... let's get real. That's why many had Harden for MVP -- because it was kinda crazy how he was able to carry that team with Howard gone. Spurs/GSW/Clippers (lost/choked but they were clearly a better team), Memphis, Hawks, and Cleveland were better IMO. Even now, who the hell expected the Rockets to get this far? I had them getting beat by Mavs because Harden's reputation for sucking in the postseason.
Not much to add because I can kind of see where you're coming from and mostly agree, except I have zero doubt that durant leads that squad to the finals and same if you replaced James with kd on those heat teams too. Anywho,
Who do you think has been more impressive this postseason, all things considered? You say the rockets aren't a top 4 team and they're alive mostly due to harden, so I'd like your take.. Harden or James? Factoring in competition, roster support, statistically or whatever. Kind of the whole package on who has been more impressive?

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 03:11 AM
Sure, take him out but that's not my argument. My argument is that everyone likes to say James teams are stacked but it only happens when he beats them. When he loses, it's because he quit or he sucks or he didn't do this/that. Like I said, Jimmy Butler doesn't carry that Cleveland team anywhere. Heck, even with Love/Irving/Butler, Hawks will still sweep them. How many people had the Hawks beating the Warriors? Well, if James is on that Hawks team instead of Teague and everyone is 100% healthy, they are probably going to beat them.

That Hawks team would not be better than any of his Miami teams or even this Cavs team without Love. And we seen what a struggle it was for better teamates withthe Heat. The Warriors would be heavy favorites to win that series.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:11 AM
He's top 5 right now and possibly top 3 as it stands, IMO. Depending how the rest of his career shakes up, he still has a chance to reach goat status which is amazing that it's even possible. I'm not sure he catches Mike, but if he wins another championship or two, that will be a legit debate more so than any other player.

If he wins this year, I could see him going on a 3-4 year run of rings depending on how he ages. Which would bring his ring total to 5-6 with 8 consecutive finals appearances. That is definitely a GOAT resume with his stats. I already have him penciled in as the GOAT when his career is all said and done.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 03:12 AM
If he wins this year, I could see him going on a 3-4 year run of rings depending on how he ages. Which would bring his ring total to 5-6 with 8 consecutive finals appearances. That is definitely a GOAT resume with his stats. I already have him penciled in as the GOAT when his career is all said and done.

Putting the carriage before the horse a bit there buddy.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:13 AM
Holy bejesus. Salary cap be dammed. I guess the Thunders owner is no longer cheap and pays Harden Max money if Lebron is there?

Spurs go into the luxury tax for the first time ever?

Who do the Warriors cut to accommodate Lebrons salary thus weakening the team.

And if we are giving Lebron any team he wants, can i just add Anthony Davis to the Clippers and watch them go at it?

Lebron would have a better winning % in the finals. Wouldn't get there nearly as much. Which is my ENTIRE POINT OF EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD. What is it you think I'm trying to say?

I think you fell on your head because Westbrook was there and that is why I took him out for LeBron. They CAN make it work but who cares about the salary cap? We are comparing the situations in which a player can be placed into in a legitimate team. Salary is completely irrelevant because James could be drafted by the OKC and have gone the same route Westbrook did just like he could have been with the Spurs instead of Kawhi. The fact is, James will win in the East and the West because he's a great player. You give him an average team in the East like most teams are in the East, he'll make them beat the best teams in the East. You give him a stacked team in the West like most teams are in the West, he'll beat the other stacked teams in the West. We're talking about a top ten, ending top 5 player, never seen before in NBA history. He can play against anyone. This whole West/East is only valid if he had a Western Conference team and was playing in the East. That isn't the case here.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:15 AM
yeah, that's BS.

Be real...there is no other player in the league that you could of switched Bron out for that would of gotten this result. Sorry, its a crazy stat because no one else could do it. But just looking at Bron, its an above average stat for him because he just that good that I/you expect him to be in the finals every year.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 03:18 AM
Be real...there is no other player in the league that you could of switched Bron out for that would of gotten this result. Sorry, its a crazy stat because no one else could do it. But just looking at Bron, its an above average stat for him because he just that good that I/you expect him to be in the finals every year.

Kd easily imo. He would've led those heat teams and this cavs team to the finals 5x in a row and have 2 rings to show for it.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:18 AM
Well, that's pretty much the point. Us Laker fans always took a big sigh of relief once they got out of the West assuming the East was the cake walk. More often than not we were correct. I would rather have had the Spurs in the East so the Lakers could make the finals nine or ten times as well.

4 out of 5 of Kobe's championships were won in the Western Conference. The finals were just something they had to go to pick up their trophy.

Detroit had other plans when they smacked y'all around huh?

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:19 AM
Not much to add because I can kind of see where you're coming from and mostly agree, except I have zero doubt that durant leads that squad to the finals and same if you replaced James with kd on those heat teams too. Anywho,
Who do you think has been more impressive this postseason, all things considered? You say the rockets aren't a top 4 team and they're alive mostly due to harden, so I'd like your take.. Harden or James? Factoring in competition, roster support, statistically or whatever. Kind of the whole package on who has been more impressive?

LeBron and that doesn't mean Bron had a better season than Harden but that roster he has right now isn't better than the roster Harden has currently. LeBron with Love/Irving being healthy is a different story but that hasn't been the case for the entire playoffs. Irving was hurt in the Celtics series. Love was out (let's just say for the entire playoffs). But what impressed me most with LeBron wasn't the numbers. We finally saw the new and improved Bron (the Bron who has won rings now) back in a similar situation in the Cavs that he had for his first seven seasons. Once again, it was Bron leading a team that really, didn't look good on paper as soon as Irving/Love were out. It was his leadership that stepped up. I'm not going to lie, Bron at his earlier stage was still a child. He was out celebrating when he didn't win a thing. But this Bron held his ground. He took the gamewinning shot. He did it again in game 3 vs the Hawks in which he shouted to Tristan to pass him it. He didn't celebrate like they won anything. That was what impressed me the most and that is what truly differentiates him from Harden. LeBron right now would not be doing that soup thingy Harden does after a three when he's down 3-0 in the playoffs.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 03:21 AM
Detroit had other plans when they smacked y'all around huh?

That team would've smacked any Lebron led team around too. They would've played Lebron exactly the style that bothers him, really physical. Prime prince had the tools to be a pest for James also.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:21 AM
Kd easily imo. He would've led those heat teams and this cavs team to the finals 5x in a row and have 2 rings to show for it.

I really doubt that. Why? Because Miami worked so well because of the three point shot. No one did that better than Bron. Durant has his own style and that wouldn't translate as well. We're comparing two great players but that Miami team fit James more than KD.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:23 AM
only the sith deal in absolutes

Didn't know you had this in you repertoire. You definitely have the high ground.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:24 AM
This means absolutely nothing. Lebron made 5 finals in a row with the best team every time. Not to mention he's playing in the weakest conference in history

The thing you fail to realize is he can make 50% of the teams in the league the best team in the league just by being on them. No one else has that kind of impact. No one else is taking Cleveland do the finals. Put Lebron on any playoff team, and now they are the favorites. You can't say that about any other player.

jerellh528
05-27-2015, 03:25 AM
Didn't know you had this in you repertoire. You definitely have the high ground.

As a huge Star Wars fans, he stepped up a few notches in my book with that, lol!

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 03:26 AM
I think you fell on your head because Westbrook was there and that is why I took him out for LeBron. They CAN make it work but who cares about the salary cap? We are comparing the situations in which a player can be placed into in a legitimate team. Salary is completely irrelevant because James could be drafted by the OKC and have gone the same route Westbrook did just like he could have been with the Spurs instead of Kawhi. The fact is, James will win in the East and the West because he's a great player. You give him an average team in the East like most teams are in the East, he'll make them beat the best teams in the East. You give him a stacked team in the West like most teams are in the West, he'll beat the other stacked teams in the West. We're talking about a top ten, ending top 5 player, never seen before in NBA history. He can play against anyone. This whole West/East is only valid if he had a Western Conference team and was playing in the East. That isn't the case here.
Who cares about the salary cap? The Thunder and Spurs do.
Westbrook was only making $5 million the year they went to the finals. Lebron was making $20 that year. The Thunder would not keep a team like that together for 5 years.

What happens to Tony Parker with Lebron on the team. He can't shoot so he doesn't space the floor for Lebron. I could see him turning into a Chris Bosh, Wade and Love and get the blame for not being what he used to because the way Lebron turns stars into role players.


Your saying the Heat team and this Cavs team don't have a god roster? Good night lol

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:29 AM
As a huge Star Wars fans, he stepped up a few notches in my book with that, lol!

On a side note. What are your expectations for Episode 7.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:29 AM
The thing you fail to realize is he can make 50% of the teams in the league the best team. No one else has that kind of impact.

That's what I'm saying. I don't think they would be the best team in the NBA but let's look at the NBA Finals. He would lead every if not, 95% of those EC teams to the Finals. We say Orlando sucks but LeBron would take that team to the Finals and have everyone convinced they're stacked.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:35 AM
It's only remarkable if you ignore context. The East is incredibly weak, for one, so the more dominant teams rise to the finals with less resistance. Second, Lebron can only be credited with carrying a weak team to the finals once. He got carried by two future HOF in Wade and Bosh with the Heat, and went life and death with a depleted and rebuilding Celtics team, an injured but better on paper Bulls team, and an injury plagued young Hawks team. He just lost Love and Kyrie so let's not act like he carried the team without them the whole season. Either one of the Warriors or Rockets sweep them, not one game will be close. Not one.

No other player in the NBA could of done this, especially if Bron is in the East at the same time they try.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:37 AM
Who cares about the salary cap? The Thunder and Spurs do.
Westbrook was only making $5 million the year they went to the finals. Lebron was making $20 that year. The Thunder would not keep a team like that together for 5 years.

What happens to Tony Parker with Lebron on the team. He can't shoot so he doesn't space the floor for Lebron. I could see him turning into a Chris Bosh, Wade and Love and get the blame for not being what he used to because the way Lebron turns stars into role players.


Your saying the Heat team and this Cavs team don't have a god roster? Good night lol

If you learn to read, you would see that I said he could be drafted as well. Okay, let's take Harden out and put LeBron/KD/Ibaka right now as it is. You're telling me they won't make the NBA Finals? I never said that his Heat/Cavs team aren't good. His Cavs team right NOW with injured Irving/Love is average.. you and I both know that. That same Heat team that had everything working for them but traded Norris Cole, had a huge boost with Whiteside, replaced James for Deng/Dragic.. and still can't make the NBA Playoffs. But didn't everyone say LeBron held Bosh's potential but Bosh actually played worse this season? So yes, his team is average when you consider that Chalmers went from being their starting PG to a backup because the Heat found out he wasn't good enough to run that offense (that James ran). So they traded for Dragic (who still couldn't run that offense). When you can't make the playoffs in the East, that tells me one thing: You're not very good. But hey, you wanna play salary cap games? Okay, let's take Parker and Diaw out and put James there... Would that Spurs team make the Finals? Cavs are way past the salary cap anyways as it is so we can play this game with any team and chances are, James will make the WCF. But I hate to play this any longer. Is it true or false that Bron gives you the best chance at winning a ring? That's a fact that can't be denied.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 03:47 AM
You didn't see enough of Duncan's game in his prime if you think Lebron, or anyone for that matter, could step in and win the title in 2003. Hakeem probably wasn't a good enough passer to make it work, Kareem similar and his defensive impact wasn't as great, Shaq didn't have the defensive presence or a diverse enough game to do it, Michael would have the same problems Lebron would in that there isn't nearly enough defensive or rebounding talent to make much noise (much less beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers). Magic? Please.


Now a more interesting topic would be whether Lebron could have beaten the Kobe/Shaq Lakers in 2001 with AI's team. I still think no, but it might be close.

Lebron would of annihilated the Nets. That Spurs team beat Kobe/Shaq in the playoffs.

sammyvine
05-27-2015, 04:23 AM
LeBron is a top 5 player all time but the East is a joke. No way he has it that easy in the West. Look how tough the West is and you have to remember OKC didn't even make it to the playoffs thus year!
For a 60 win team to be swept by a team without their two all star players is embarassing

Supreme LA
05-27-2015, 04:24 AM
How many finals appearances would Lebron have made in the last 5 years if his teams were playing in the West???

This is an interesting and valid question I think.

thenaj17
05-27-2015, 04:54 AM
Kobe still had to beat a team from the east to win a title.....Kobe had a tougher road, I'm not questioning that, I'm just saying there is no NBA title with him beating the east. So if Lebron's final appearances are meaningless so are Kobe's titles because they both came against the east, or they both are meaningful.

You can't have it both ways.

Your logic is 100% flawed.

This is exaggerated but proves that your logic is wrong.

Team A beats on 3 D-league teams and loses against an NBA team in The Finals.
Team B beats 3 NBA teams and beats a D League team in The Finals

B is clearly more impressive despite only beating a D League team in The Finals because they had to beat 3 NBA teams to even get there!

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2015, 05:21 AM
He's playing in the East that's why. Out of the last 5 years I see him making it once out West.

So if he was on the Spurs he'd only make it once.


This type of statement does not make any sense. You don't know what team, teammates, or coach he'd have if he was in the west.

Explain exactly without taking a team into account what you mean and how you could know that, please be specific.

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2015, 05:31 AM
Who cares about the salary cap? The Thunder and Spurs do.
Westbrook was only making $5 million the year they went to the finals. Lebron was making $20 that year. The Thunder would not keep a team like that together for 5 years.

What happens to Tony Parker with Lebron on the team. He can't shoot so he doesn't space the floor for Lebron. I could see him turning into a Chris Bosh, Wade and Love and get the blame for not being what he used to because the way Lebron turns stars into role players.


Your saying the Heat team and this Cavs team don't have a god roster? Good night lol


Westbrook 4th or 5th year in the league - he still may have been on his rookie contract
Lebron - 9th or 10th year in the league....the salary issue makes sense.

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2015, 05:34 AM
Your logic is 100% flawed.

This is exaggerated but proves that your logic is wrong.

Team A beats on 3 D-league teams and loses against an NBA team in The Finals.
Team B beats 3 NBA teams and beats a D League team in The Finals

B is clearly more impressive despite only beating a D League team in The Finals because they had to beat 3 NBA teams to even get there!


I'm not disputing that, I am say that Team A doesn't make the finals without beating d-league teams, and Team B does not win in the finals without beating a d-league team.

Not flawed at all, its 100% accurate. Lebron beat the east to make the finals, Kobe beat the east to win a title...this is a fact....you may think 100% accurate statements are flawed when they hurt your argument.

I acknowledge (and have in this topic) that Kobe had a tougher road, but if Kobe deserves credit for his titles and not just his conference championships than you need to give Lebron credit for making the finals.

RLundi
05-27-2015, 05:52 AM
This is not a great accomplishment when you factor what the 60s Celtics accomplished

The need to suck off Lebron in this forum is beyond hilarious

Conversely, the need to discredit everything LeBron does is equally hilarious, but more pathetic and shameful.

Hotone1401
05-27-2015, 06:13 AM
Someone asked an interesting question. How many finals appearances do you guys think Lebron would have in the last 5 years if he had his team battle through the West? It's a valid question that I think people want to avoid answering.

I think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that Lebron made no finals appearances coming through the West. I'd say 2 appearances at most and that's even hard to say because the west is so deep.

Hotone1401
05-27-2015, 06:17 AM
How many finals appearances would Lebron have made in the last 5 years if his teams were playing in the West???

This is an interesting and valid question I think.

Lebron fans will likely duck this question because they understand he could have possibly made no finals appearances battling through the West.

nastynice
05-27-2015, 06:29 AM
How many finals appearances would Lebron have made in the last 5 years if his teams were playing in the West???

This is an interesting and valid question I think.

That's a great question. Man, could you imagine if we got to see that, Lebron going through (up to) 4 rounds of meaningful tough series. He seems to play his best when the competition is fierce, I think watching him battle through west playoffs would have been awesome!

His first year in miami, they went through chi and boston, those two teams were as good as any western conference team. And he was a complete beast in those two series. Since then, just been some decent series w/ pacers, nothing all that great tho. Thinking of it now, I feel robbed not getting to see Lebron go up against the west year after year.

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 07:31 AM
That's a great question. Man, could you imagine if we got to see that, Lebron going through (up to) 4 rounds of meaningful tough series. He seems to play his best when the competition is fierce, I think watching him battle through west playoffs would have been awesome!

His first year in miami, they went through chi and boston, those two teams were as good as any western conference team. And he was a complete beast in those two series. Since then, just been some decent series w/ pacers, nothing all that great tho. Thinking of it now, I feel robbed not getting to see Lebron go up against the west year after year.

That Boston team was good, people may think their big 3 era died off after that finals with the lakers that they lost, but 2010, the big 3 were playing better, Rondo was better, they were winning more games. That 2011 team was better than the 2010 if you ask me.

And for fun.. Lebron in the West...

Clippers I believe had money then, nice market area. They weren't a good team, one of the worst, poorly run, meh coach in Del Negro, but James, DeAndre, Blake, Gordon, and even without making a move for CP3 instead they keep Bledsoe and add in role players for whomever they didn't keep of Mo Williams, Rasual Butler, Foye, Kaman, etc.. I could see that winning more than 1 finals from the West. That would be a sick frontcourt.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 08:02 AM
Do we remove Korver from the equation because he s been done since the series began? I say they get out of the east and get their doors blown off by the Warriors

Korver is probably wide open and a beast out there if he has Lebron sucking in the defense for him. Look at how many open looks Shump and JR get.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 08:10 AM
Kd easily imo. He would've led those heat teams and this cavs team to the finals 5x in a row and have 2 rings to show for it.

I disagree...he is a great individual talent, but he doesn't effect the game defensively like Bron (ability to guard all positions very well) and he doesn't create for teammates around him, thus making the team better. Cleveland is not nearly as good, with KD IMO. Also we know it would not of happened because KD got hurt, so it definitely would not of happen. Remember the durability factor is also what makes this special. KD would of had his foot issue and then done. Bron is the most durable player I have ever seen.

IKnowHoops
05-27-2015, 08:13 AM
That team would've smacked any Lebron led team around too. They would've played Lebron exactly the style that bothers him, really physical. Prime prince had the tools to be a pest for James also.

Actually that team got beat by Lebron when Lebron put on a top 5 greatest performance ever with a crap roster in CLE. So no.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 09:11 AM
How many finals appearances would Lebron have made in the last 5 years if his teams were playing in the West???

This is an interesting and valid question I think.

That is a really interesting question. I'm inclined to say 2-3. That first year obviously Lebron sucked in the Finals against the Mavericks, but he and that Heat team were a beast up until that last series. So I'm inclined to give him the edge there, but it's a coin flip. I'm also inclined to give him the edge the other two seasons as he and the Heat demolished the Thunder that second season (easily the West's best) and still beat the Spurs two years ago, whether people want to give the Heat any credit for that win or not.

But unless the seedings would have changed last season so that some other team would have been able to knock off the Spurs, no way would the Heat have gotten past San Antonio in the West last year. And because they likely would have been a low seed playing without HCA the entire playoffs this year, plus the injury to Love, I don't think they would have had much of a chance this season either.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2015, 09:13 AM
That's a great question. Man, could you imagine if we got to see that, Lebron going through (up to) 4 rounds of meaningful tough series. He seems to play his best when the competition is fierce, I think watching him battle through west playoffs would have been awesome!

His first year in miami, they went through chi and boston, those two teams were as good as any western conference team. And he was a complete beast in those two series. Since then, just been some decent series w/ pacers, nothing all that great tho. Thinking of it now, I feel robbed not getting to see Lebron go up against the west year after year.

Remember to (most just want to ignore this fact), if LeBron was out west, he is getting better teammates. There are simply a lot more talented players out west.

RowBTrice
05-27-2015, 09:23 AM
Definitely a top 10 player of all time.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 09:49 AM
Why are you guys knowingly not acknowledging that he will get better teammates in the West? If LeBron had likely started his career in the WC, he'd get a team much better than what he had for seven years.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 09:53 AM
That is a really interesting question. I'm inclined to say 2-3. That first year obviously Lebron sucked in the Finals against the Mavericks, but he and that Heat team were a beast up until that last series. So I'm inclined to give him the edge there, but it's a coin flip. I'm also inclined to give him the edge the other two seasons as he and the Heat demolished the Thunder that second season (easily the West's best) and still beat the Spurs two years ago, whether people want to give the Heat any credit for that win or not.

But unless the seedings would have changed last season so that some other team would have been able to knock off the Spurs, no way would the Heat have gotten past San Antonio in the West last year. And because they likely would have been a low seed playing without HCA the entire playoffs this year, plus the injury to Love, I don't think they would have had much of a chance this season either.

So you're saying that that he would have beat the Mavs if they were playing them in the Western Conference Finals? That doesn't make any sense. The reason they struggled was because they faced the better team. LeBron has proven he has had the best team 2 years. He would make two finals and be 2-0

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 09:55 AM
Why are you guys knowingly not acknowledging that he will get better teammates in the West? If LeBron had likely started his career in the WC, he'd get a team much better than what he had for seven years.

I think the question posed, though, was how well Lebron's TEAMS would have performed in the West. Not Lebron himself. But regardless, I don't think it really matters that much what conference he's in. It matters what team he is on. If he had been in the West playing for Sacramento or Minnesota or Utah the last five years, he would probably would have had zero finals appearances barring the acquisition of another star player. Obviously if you put Lebron on San Antonio, OKC, either LA squad, Dallas, Memphis or Houston in that span of time, he probably makes some Finals appearances and winds up with some rings.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 09:59 AM
So you're saying that that he would have beat the Mavs if they were playing them in the Western Conference Finals? That doesn't make any sense. The reason they struggled was because they faced the better team. LeBron has proven he has had the best team 2 years. He would make two finals and be 2-0

I think if you had that Heat team play that Mavericks team 100 times out of 100, that Heat team would have won 60-70 of those games. I think the moment was too big for Lebron in the Finals that year as it was the first year he ever really had a huge pressure on him to succeed in the Finals. The Mavericks outplayed the Heat in that Finals series, but it was damn close. if it had been in the WCF or in a first or second round series, I think Miami wins it in five or six.

But like I said, I think that one is a coin flip. That's why I said he probably would have had 2-3 Finals appearances in that stretch.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:00 AM
I think the question posed, though, was how well Lebron's TEAMS would have performed in the West. Not Lebron himself. But regardless, I don't think it really matters that much what conference he's in. It matters what team he is on. If he had been in the West playing for Sacramento or Minnesota or Utah the last five years, he would probably would have had zero finals appearances barring the acquisition of another star player. Obviously if you put Lebron on San Antonio, OKC, either LA squad, Dallas, Memphis or Houston in that span of time, he probably makes some Finals appearances and winds up with some rings.

Well, we all know that wouldn't be fair. It's kinda like stuffing Kobe or James Harden in the Wolves and then berating them for not making the playoffs. There's a limit to these things. If we're going to put him up and compare him to the playoff teams, he should be given that equal opportunity.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:01 AM
Someone asked an interesting question. How many finals appearances do you guys think Lebron would have in the last 5 years if he had his team battle through the West? It's a valid question that I think people want to avoid answering.

I think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that Lebron made no finals appearances coming through the West. I'd say 2 appearances at most and that's even hard to say because the west is so deep.

So let me get this straight... KD can make the Finals but LeBron with an equal roster won't? Is that what you're saying?

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-27-2015, 10:06 AM
On paper, this is a great accomplishment. In reality, his team has always been favored in the pathetic Eastern Conference this whole time. It was fully expected that he would make the finals each and every single one of these years. There just hasn't been an Eastern Conference team good enough to beat his team. I give him full credit for his 2 championship seasons, but in his two loses, they got smoked by the Western Conference team. Lets see how they do against Golden State this time around. If they win this series or even keep it close, I'll give him and his team some credit. But if they get blown out, they don't deserve credit. If that happens, they were just a team lucky to be in the Eastern Conference. I need to at least see that they are better than the Rockets, Grizzlies, Spurs, Clips, etc.

To compare it to the Bulls of the 90's... yes the West was better then too. The difference however, was that the Bulls never lost to any of those Western teams in the finals. They went 6-0 in finals matchups and that is why Jordan's legacy is what it is. Lebron can't just get to the finals year after year in a pathetic Eastern Conference like its some sort of special accomplishment, because it really isn't. Winning the finals would be though.

valade16
05-27-2015, 10:09 AM
Lillard - Wes - Bron - LMA - Rolo

Conley - Allen - Bron - ZBo - Gasol

CP3 - Redick - Bron - Griffin - Jordan

Rondo - Ellis - Bron - Dirk - Chandler

Jrue - Gordon - Bron - AD - Asik


Which of those teams isn't going to the Finals more often than not?

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:13 AM
There's a huge difference between:

1) There hasn't been a team that were good enough to beat his team

from

2) LeBron is just too good for the EC.

I would go with #2. His team isn't stacked. We can compare rosters all day with the respective EC teams and see that Kyrie+Love isn't much or if any, better than Teague/Horford. Kyrie+Love isn't better than Butler+Gasol. So really, what are we talking about here? How one guy is just really good and they can't beat him? Cause in the West, he'd certainly have more help than Mo fricking Williams.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-27-2015, 10:17 AM
Someone asked an interesting question. How many finals appearances do you guys think Lebron would have in the last 5 years if he had his team battle through the West? It's a valid question that I think people want to avoid answering.

I think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that Lebron made no finals appearances coming through the West. I'd say 2 appearances at most and that's even hard to say because the west is so deep.

The answer is 2. He would have made 2 finals appearances. Miami was the best team in the NBA the 2 years Miami won it all. They beat the very top teams in the West in those years. I'm sure Miami would have beaten the other Western Conference teams that year too. Don't tell me they could be OKC 4-1 in the finals or beat a very good Spurs team the next year... but they would have lost to some team like the Clippers or Grizzlies. You and I know that is BS. He would have made it out of the West twice in the last four years. Its hard to tell this year until we see them face the Warriors. I think they wouldn't, but the while the West is as deep as ever, outside of Golden State there is no other dominant team that would have necessarily beaten the Cavs, so lets see how the finals play out.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:18 AM
LeBron in the Clippers: DeAndre, Cp3, Bron.

If you don't think that is an NBA Finals team, you are just lying to yourself.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-27-2015, 10:19 AM
Lillard - Wes - Bron - LMA - Rolo

Conley - Allen - Bron - ZBo - Gasol

CP3 - Redick - Bron - Griffin - Jordan

Rondo - Ellis - Bron - Dirk - Chandler

Jrue - Gordon - Bron - AD - Asik


Which of those teams isn't going to the Finals more often than not?

I mean, you have to at least take away the best players on those teams or else its just not fair. For instance, take CP3 off LAC and replace him with Bron. Ok, then you can ask that question.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-27-2015, 10:26 AM
LeBron in the Clippers: DeAndre, Cp3, Bron.

If you don't think that is an NBA Finals team, you are just lying to yourself.

They aren't making it to the finals 5 straight years with that team. Do they beat GSW this year? Do they beat SA each of the last two years? Hell, are they better than the Miami teams of Lebron? IDK. Surely they would be in the mix. Lebron is the best player in the world, but lets not act like the competition in the East is any sort of a threat to him. There is no championship caliber team in the East and hasn't been in the past 5 years (other than Lebron's teams). This dilutes the accomplishment.

Its funny about Lebron. His fanboys give him every benifit of the doubt and his haters give him nothing. He is the best player in the world and has been for the last decade pretty much. He deserves his two championships. But lets not act like making the finals 5 times in a row in a pathetic Eastern Conference is some sort of magical accomplishment. Not one of those Eastern teams he beat over the last 5 years was a championship caliber team and in 3 of the last 5 years, it is highly unlikely he would have made it out of the West. And his supporting cast isn't the best, but it isn't the worst either. Actually, it may have been the best in his fist 3 years with Miami.

valade16
05-27-2015, 10:35 AM
I mean, you have to at least take away the best players on those teams or else its just not fair. For instance, take CP3 off LAC and replace him with Bron. Ok, then you can ask that question.

That's kind of my point.

kdspurman
05-27-2015, 10:35 AM
They aren't making it to the finals 5 straight years with that team. Do they beat GSW this year? Do they beat SA each of the last two years? Hell, are they better than the Miami teams of Lebron? IDK. Surely they would be in the mix. Lebron is the best player in the world, but lets not act like the competition in the East is any sort of a threat to him. There is no championship caliber team in the East and hasn't been in the past 5 years (other than Lebron's teams). This dilutes the accomplishment.

Its funny about Lebron. His fanboys give him every benifit of the doubt and his haters give him nothing. He is the best player in the world and has been for the last decade pretty much. He deserves his two championships. But lets not act like making the finals 5 times in a row in a pathetic Eastern Conference is some sort of magical accomplishment. Not one of those Eastern teams he beat over the last 5 years was a championship caliber team and in 3 of the last 5 years, it is highly unlikely he would have made it out of the West. And his supporting cast isn't the best, but it isn't the worst either. Actually, it may have been the best in his fist 3 years with Miami.

I agree with this... And I think that the bolded is spot on. So many people trash him, and then his defenders defend like crazy and neither side really is very rational imo.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 10:45 AM
Why are you guys knowingly not acknowledging that he will get better teammates in the West? If LeBron had likely started his career in the WC, he'd get a team much better than what he had for seven years.
Talk about reading comprehension. Has anyone in here said he sucks? Has anyone said he wouldn't succeed with better teammates? The answer is No. All anyone is saying is he is a great player who is on very good team right now and for the past 5 years. But he is playing against weak competition. That's the gist of our argument. There is nothing more, there is nothing less. If he had better talent, and beat a talented team, that's all you can ask of someone. The only thing anyone is asking for in here is context, but I guess that's too much to ask for people with such bad reading comprehension.

And you guys must really be LeBron fans. You think just like him. You want to put him on the Warriors now who don't need him? Or a Thunder team where there are no injuries to Durant and Ibaka and no worries of a salary cap. You want the Cavs to have to deal with no injuries while the other teams playin reality. Love is out, it's part of the game. Nobody goes a full season being healthy. Look at the Bulls and Hawks.

You keep talking about the Heat as if they were healthy as well. Bosh hasn't played since January. He's the only big man worth anything. Whiteside plays 20 minutes a game. Who says he flourishes if LeBron is there? Chances are he's stuck on the bench with Bosch at the 5. They don't make the trade for Dragic because then you have 3 guys who need the ball to be effective. Dragic wanted to go somewhere where he could be the main focal point of the offence with the ball. That's not happening with Lebron.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 10:47 AM
Korver is probably wide open and a beast out there if he has Lebron sucking in the defense for him. Look at how many open looks Shump and JR get.

Korver is not playing. Find another spacer

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 10:51 AM
Lillard - Wes - Bron - LMA - Rolo

Conley - Allen - Bron - ZBo - Gasol

CP3 - Redick - Bron - Griffin - Jordan

Rondo - Ellis - Bron - Dirk - Chandler

Jrue - Gordon - Bron - AD - Asik


Which of those teams isn't going to the Finals more often than not?

Beverley - Harden - Lebron - Smith - Howard :drool:

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 11:11 AM
That's kind of my point.
And what point is that? You put an all time great player on a team thats already stacked, salary cap be damned with no trades or having to lose anybody of value. Are you saying they would be good? No.....

I want to play.

Shaq/ Bogut
Green/ Lee
Barnes/Iggy
Klay
Curry/Livingston

With that post game, defense, bench and spreading of the floor, none of those LeBron team to beat them

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 11:18 AM
LeBron in the Clippers: DeAndre, Cp3, Bron.

If you don't think that is an NBA Finals team, you are just lying to yourself.

Who gets neutered? Chris Paul or LeBron? they still have no bench, and now has two guys who need the ball to be most effective. That team is not getting to the finals.

You guys keep acting like if you just stick him with big names he will win everything every year. We have seen that is not the case. Those big name do not continue to produce at big levels. We seen that with Bosh, we seen that with Wade, we seen that with Love. Cp3 will become an afterthought and you lose one of the best passers in the game for someone who is less efficient at passing cause you know Lebron is going to take the ball from him

ewing
05-27-2015, 11:47 AM
Lillard - Wes - Bron - LMA - Rolo

Conley - Allen - Bron - ZBo - Gasol

CP3 - Redick - Bron - Griffin - Jordan

Rondo - Ellis - Bron - Dirk - Chandler

Jrue - Gordon - Bron - AD - Asik


Which of those teams isn't going to the Finals more often than not?

IDK, maybe we will find out in 3 years

valade16
05-27-2015, 11:52 AM
And what point is that? You put an all time great player on a team thats already stacked, salary cap be damned with no trades or having to lose anybody of value. Are you saying they would be good? No.....

I want to play.

Shaq/ Bogut
Green/ Lee
Barnes/Iggy
Klay
Curry/Livingston

With that post game, defense, bench and spreading of the floor, none of those LeBron team to beat them

That team would undoubtedly be worse than the current Warriors iteration. You are aware that Shaq has been retired for the past 4 seasons and is currently a host for TNT correct?

valade16
05-27-2015, 11:52 AM
IDK, maybe we will find out in 3 years

:laugh2: That was a good one. As a Blazer fan I sincerely hope so :)

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 12:05 PM
Looking at those starting fives posted with Lebron, there's one that's left out that might actually be legitimately possible and could feasibly happen:

PG Tony Parker
SG Danny Green
SF Kawhi Leonard
PF Lebron James
C Tim Duncan

Holy crap. Is that not terrifying? If you're Lebron and San Antonio gave you a max offer with that roster, don't you have to at least seriously consider it? They might only get a max of two more years out of Duncan, but that's probably enough to win Lebron two more titles.

Obviously this isn't going to happen. And he would get completely crucified in the media for moving to the team that beat him two of three times in the Finals. PSD would probably explode from the combination of Lebron hate and the juggernaut that would be SpursFan's ego. But, man. What a starting five that would be. They'd score 105+ a game and give up fewer than 95 a night.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-27-2015, 01:06 PM
That team would undoubtedly be worse than the current Warriors iteration. You are aware that Shaq has been retired for the past 4 seasons and is currently a host for TNT correct?

lol. But I wanted to go into fantasy land as well. I've created a time machine and traveled to dimensions where the salary cap is inconsequential.

Hangtime
05-27-2015, 01:44 PM
I think its very impressive for Lebron to do this. And I know people throw out the fact about how pathetic the east is and its true but it takes a strong level of endurance and health to make this type of run for five years straight. He's the best player on all five of these runs and carries a great deal of the load defensively and offensively. You are also playing more games in the post season with 4 rounds of best of sevens. But despite the weakness, these are still professional NBA players amongst the best in the world. Its not easy to maintain this level of competitiveness every year with deep runs.

Guys back in the day got first round byes and played less rounds. And nobody has done this in the modern era. And exactly how many games has Lebron missed during the regular season due to major injuries? Dude is like that damn Energizer bunny. And lets not ignore the fact he went to the finals a few years before Miami. Its amazing in my eyes and I give him props.

valade16
05-27-2015, 01:55 PM
lol. But I wanted to go into fantasy land as well. I've created a time machine and traveled to dimensions where the salary cap is inconsequential.

Almost as inconsequential as saying the Eastern conference teams LeBron has played with wouldn't make it in the West I'd say...

Chronz
05-27-2015, 02:16 PM
Who gets neutered? Chris Paul or LeBron? they still have no bench, and now has two guys who need the ball to be most effective. That team is not getting to the finals.neutered? talk about an overstatement. blake and cp3 technically do that to each other, as do most stars wen they share court, still makes the team better.


You guys keep acting like if you just stick him with big names he will win everything every year. We have seen that is not the case. Those big name do not continue to produce at big levels. We seen that with Bosh, we seen that with Wade, we seen that with Love. Cp3 will become an afterthought and you lose one of the best passers in the game for someone who is less efficient at passing cause you know Lebron is going to take the ball from him
wade n bosh just posted the worst 2-way seasons of their prime and loves struggles go beyond 1 player, if he had cp3 with bron instead of kyrie he would fair abit better(and bron would be far less turnover prone from not handling the ball more than he ever did in miami). obviously there arent enough balls for 3 offensive players, there never has been so thats not unique to bron. thats why having dj instead of love is so great.

GoferKing_
05-27-2015, 06:00 PM
If he wins this year, I could see him going on a 3-4 year run of rings depending on how he ages. Which would bring his ring total to 5-6 with 8 consecutive finals appearances. That is definitely a GOAT resume with his stats. I already have him penciled in as the GOAT when his career is all said and done.

Yes, Yes and YES!!!

He will win not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7 etc. in Miami.... oh wait.

Redrum187
05-27-2015, 06:21 PM
I'm reading how this "doesn't impress" some posters here. That's fine, I just can't help but to be impressed. While the east is weak, there are still 3 or 4 really good squads each year that could rival any of the west's teams. LeBron isn't in my top 10 favorite players of all time, but he is without a doubt in my top 10 players of all time list. If we are talking about peak performances, I'd say top 2-4.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2015, 06:57 PM
How many finals appearances would Lebron have made in the last 5 years if his teams were playing in the West???

This is an interesting and valid question I think.
I would think the answer is likely as low as 3 and as high as 5.

Chronz
05-27-2015, 06:57 PM
I'm reading how this "doesn't impress" some posters here. That's fine, I just can't help but to be impressed. While the east is weak, there are still 3 or 4 really good squads each year that could rival any of the west's teams. LeBron isn't in my top 10 favorite players of all time, but he is without a doubt in my top 10 players of all time list. If we are talking about peak performances, I'd say top 2-4.

i understand its not the west but were talking about 5 years of beating who ur suppose to beat in 3 rounds. that kind of consistency and durability isnt to be taken lightly. he just beat a 60 win team that admittedly wasn't healthy but his team is already without 3 (very) integral contributors as well, playing the likes of james jones ffs. its just remarkable that hes only losing in the finals as opposed to the many greats who are upset by feasible squads