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View Full Version : Why must LeBron fans trash LeBron's teammates?



ewing
05-26-2015, 08:00 AM
It never ends and i don't think i have ever seen it with any other athlete. I was a Knick fan. We never got Pat Ewing any top shelf offensive teammates but Knick fans LOVED John Starks and Charles Oakley. Knick fans probably gave Ewing more grief for not getting it done then the gritty role players they put with him. Every discussion on here that has to do with a LeBron team turns into a discussion about the lack of help he is getting. It doesn't even matter which LeBron team it is or if his team wins or not, or how the supporting caste plays that night.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 08:12 AM
His early Cleveland teams deserve that, they where trash, I don't think the majority of Lebron fans (that are Lebron fans, not Cleveland or Miami fans) criticize his teammates in Miami or this current team as much as you imply.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 08:41 AM
People don't say anything that isn't warranted.

JR Smith and Iman Shumpert were constantly trashed by Knicks fans (myself included). No one outside of Ohio knew who Matthew Dellavedova was before this season. Mozgov is a solid big man who everyone thought the Cavs overpaid for when they traded 2 firsts for him. TT is one of the best offensive rebounders in the league but has limited offensive game outside of that.

If any superstar was leading these guys to the finals people would be saying the same thing. If someone said those 4 guys would be close to sweeping a 60+ win team in the ECF people would laugh.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 08:46 AM
When that Cavs team of fully healthy no one is trashing them because they're extremely deep and talented.

PG: Kyrie Irving/Matthew Dellavedova
SG: Iman Shumpert/JR Smith
SF: LeBron James/James Jones
PF: Kevin Love/Tristan Thompson
C: Timofey Mozgov/Anderson Varejao

But they're far from healthy and the guys that are healthy are role players that should be absolutely nowhere near the playoffs as main pieces on a team.

koreancabbage
05-26-2015, 08:52 AM
whatever media outlet that started the "Lebron James is taking the New York Knicks to the Finals" says it all.

Noone respects the players on the current Cavs team outside Irving, Love and Lebron.

On the other hand, JR Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov are totally serviceable but underrated. who the hell is Delladova? but in the end, its a "what have you done for me lately" league....so i get the hate.

mightybosstone
05-26-2015, 08:59 AM
I don't think fans of Lebron seek out to spew negativity on Lebron's teammates. It just sort of naturally happens out of the progression of endless debate between Lebron fan and Kobe fan. Lebron fan says Lebron is the better basketball player and has had the better peak. Kobe fan says "Ringzzzzz!!!" Lebron fan says Kobe wouldn't have so many rings if he hadn't played with so much talent and naturally trashes Lebron's teammates.

And as Frazier put it, I don't think anyone would trash the Cavs roster if it was healthy. But with the No. 3 guy out for the playoffs and the No. 2 guy clearly not at 100 percent, it's hard to find a lot of positive things to say about this current Cavaliers team outside of "that guy is a really solid role player." The same could really be said about Lebron's earlier Cavs teams. I loved watching guys like Mo, Ilgauskas and Varejao, but those guys were not star basketball players.

If you want to blame anything, blame the Internet and PSD. If the Internet had been this big in the late 80s and early 90s, MJ fans would have said the same thing about MJ's teammates prior to him winning six titles.

ewing
05-26-2015, 09:04 AM
When that Cavs team of fully healthy no one is trashing them because they're extremely deep and talented.

PG: Kyrie Irving/Matthew Dellavedova
SG: Iman Shumpert/JR Smith
SF: LeBron James/James Jones
PF: Kevin Love/Tristan Thompson
C: Timofey Mozgov/Anderson Varejao

But they're far from healthy and the guys that are healthy are role players that should be absolutely nowhere near the playoffs as main pieces on a team.


Losing Irving was a huge blow and LeBron has stepped up in his absence. I actually think the team looks better with Thompson instead of Love this year and didn't Moz replace and already injured Andy? I think he did and it was an upgrade IMO. If you trashed JR and Shump when the knicks won 50 you are an idiot. Both guys actually played a bigger role on that team then they do on this one. As far during these playoffs both guys are playing very well and winning there match ups with the Hawks. JR has actually saved Clev multiple times in these playoffs.

ewing
05-26-2015, 09:11 AM
I don't think fans of Lebron seek out to spew negativity on Lebron's teammates. It just sort of naturally happens out of the progression of endless debate between Lebron fan and Kobe fan. Lebron fan says Lebron is the better basketball player and has had the better peak. Kobe fan says "Ringzzzzz!!!" Lebron fan says Kobe wouldn't have so many rings if he hadn't played with so much talent and naturally trashes Lebron's teammates.

And as Frazier put it, I don't think anyone would trash the Cavs roster if it was healthy. But with the No. 3 guy out for the playoffs and the No. 2 guy clearly not at 100 percent, it's hard to find a lot of positive things to say about this current Cavaliers team outside of "that guy is a really solid role player." The same could really be said about Lebron's earlier Cavs teams. I loved watching guys like Mo, Ilgauskas and Varejao, but those guys were not star basketball players.

If you want to blame anything, blame the Internet and PSD. If the Internet had been this big in the late 80s and early 90s, MJ fans would have said the same thing about MJ's teammates prior to him winning six titles.

this is a good point. it also seems LeBron fans are obsessed with his place in history. These same fans that harp on LeBron roadblocks act like a the Hawks haven't had any problems (thabo, Kover, Carroll, now Hartford)

LongIslandIcedZ
05-26-2015, 09:16 AM
Why must Lebron's detractors praise Lebron's teammates.

mightybosstone
05-26-2015, 09:21 AM
this is a good point. it also seems LeBron fans are obsessed with his place in history.
I don't think it's just Lebron fans. I think it's all fans. Whether it's Kobe fan, Lebron fan, Duncan fan, Shaq fan, etc. If you're a fan of an all-time great player, you probably care about where that player sits in any all-time or historical discussions. And you'll use any stat or article or piece of evidence you can find to support that argument. I do it all the time. I think most fans do. But I'm totally fine with that. I think having that historical perspective and recognizing it makes sports far more interesting. The important thing, though, is to just make sure we don't become too biased. I try my best not to let y love for Lebron cloud my judgment of how great Duncan and Kobe were, for example.


These same fans that harp on LeBron roadblocks act like a the Hawks haven't had any problems (thabo, Kover, Carroll, now Hartford)
I haven't really paid any attention to the Cleveland/Atlanta thread as I've obviously got more important stuff on my plate right now. But if anybody were to say Atlanta hasn't had its fair share of obstacles, they're insane. The Hawks have had to deal with every bit as many issues as the Cavaliers have in this series. But in Lebron and the Cavaliers' defense, the Cavs are up 3-0 and are 2-0 in Atlanta.

If both teams are riddled with injuries, neither team has any excuses. You still have to win the game. Cleveland has. Atlanta hasn't. :shrug:

valade16
05-26-2015, 09:48 AM
Losing Irving was a huge blow and LeBron has stepped up in his absence. I actually think the team looks better with Thompson instead of Love this year and didn't Moz replace and already injured Andy? I think he did and it was an upgrade IMO. If you trashed JR and Shump when the knicks won 50 you are an idiot. Both guys actually played a bigger role on that team then they do on this one. As far during these playoffs both guys are playing very well and winning there match ups with the Hawks. JR has actually saved Clev multiple times in these playoffs.

I think with guys who are role players (as JR and Shump are) it is more about finding a situation which enhances the benefits of the player while hiding the weaknesses. Nobody is going to say either JR or Shump are complete players but they are being put in roles where they can excel in Cleveland.

ewing
05-26-2015, 09:55 AM
I think with guys who are role players (as JR and Shump are) it is more about finding a situation which enhances the benefits of the player while hiding the weaknesses. Nobody is going to say either JR or Shump are complete players but they are being put in roles where they can excel in Cleveland.

I agreed (JR has potential to be and can be for burst but lacks the focus to really do it long term). having a superstar makes that a lot easier to integrate guys. still, the idea that they were constantly trashed is wrong. I really wish people still rooted for teams.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 10:25 AM
They do it to feel justified in not holding Lebron to the standards of other great players when he loses. Or to give him more praise than other great players when he wins. Simply put.

If you think JR, Shumpert, Mozgof,Delly are scrubs you simply don't know or don't watch basketball. Thompson has upgraded their Defense over Love who had found himself routinely getting benched in the 4th quarter prior to the playoffs because he's a defensive liability.

But in the big picture his teammates don't matter, this always happens.They'll tell you his fist Cleveland team was the "worst team to ever make a Finals" and he gets a pass for that L. Then they form the superteam and all the sudden we're supposed to believe 2 of the top 10 players in the league are instantly washed up. Then they add Ray and supposedly he's a scrub( until he saves the series). On and on, the names change but the narrative never does.

Look around, people are warming up their excuses for a finals loss already, its sad. I've never ever seen that with any other great player.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 10:40 AM
Losing Irving was a huge blow and LeBron has stepped up in his absence. I actually think the team looks better with Thompson instead of Love this year and didn't Moz replace and already injured Andy? I think he did and it was an upgrade IMO. If you trashed JR and Shump when the knicks won 50 you are an idiot. Both guys actually played a bigger role on that team then they do on this one. As far during these playoffs both guys are playing very well and winning there match ups with the Hawks. JR has actually saved Clev multiple times in these playoffs.

Mozzy is an upgrade over Andy V, I'm not disagreeing but who's the backup center? The Cavs have lost loads of depth with their injuries.

LeBron has played backup PG, starting SF, backup PF and at one point in game 3 he was the backup C playing alongside a lineup of James Jones, Iman Shumpert, JR Smith and Matthew Dellavedova. No other player in the league could do that, let alone lead them to the NBA finals and potential sweep of a 60 win team.

If any other superstar in the league lost his 2nd and 3rd best player and still kept winning, I'm sure we would here all about it.

Steph Curry without Klay and Draymond.
CP3 without Blake and DeAndre.
Harden without Dwight and Ariza.
Marc Gasol without Randolph and Conley.
KD without Westbrook and Ibaka.
Jimmy Butler without Gasol and Rose.

You take any teams 2nd and 3rd best players away and their teams look thin and weak.

Once again, no one was trashing his teammates when they were all healthy. The problem comes when you've got someone like Delly playing 30+ minutes a game. In their roles they provide great depth to their teams, pushed into starting positions and main parts of the team, they just don't cut it as NBA finals-bound regulars.

NYCkid12
05-26-2015, 11:01 AM
Losing Irving was a huge blow and LeBron has stepped up in his absence. I actually think the team looks better with Thompson instead of Love this year and didn't Moz replace and already injured Andy? I think he did and it was an upgrade IMO. If you trashed JR and Shump when the knicks won 50 you are an idiot. Both guys actually played a bigger role on that team then they do on this one. As far during these playoffs both guys are playing very well and winning there match ups with the Hawks. JR has actually saved Clev multiple times in these playoffs.


I don't think many people bashed them when they won 50 games, more so these last 2 seasons when the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the league.

As far as when they were on the Knicks, after the 50+ win season, both them were huge disappointments. BUT on the Cavs, playing with the best player in the world, they will be better players because they're in better situations.

I don't know if its neccessarly bashing his teammates as it is praising LeBron. The point I would make is, these guys are obviously not the greatest teammates to have because if they were so good, the Knicks would have been a better team.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 11:01 AM
Losing Irving was a huge blow and LeBron has stepped up in his absence. I actually think the team looks better with Thompson instead of Love this year and didn't Moz replace and already injured Andy? I think he did and it was an upgrade IMO. If you trashed JR and Shump when the knicks won 50 you are an idiot. Both guys actually played a bigger role on that team then they do on this one. As far during these playoffs both guys are playing very well and winning there match ups with the Hawks. JR has actually saved Clev multiple times in these playoffs.

Mozzy is an upgrade over Andy V, I'm not disagreeing but who's the backup center? The Cavs have lost loads of depth with their injuries.

LeBron has played backup PG, starting SF, backup PF and at one point in game 3 he was the backup C playing alongside a lineup of James Jones, Iman Shumpert, JR Smith and Matthew Dellavedova. No other player in the league could do that, let alone lead them to the NBA finals and potential sweep of a 60 win team.

If any other superstar in the league lost his 2nd and 3rd best player and still kept winning, I'm sure we would here all about it.

Steph Curry without Klay and Draymond.
CP3 without Blake and DeAndre.
Harden without Dwight and Ariza.
Marc Gasol without Randolph and Conley.
KD without Westbrook and Ibaka.
Jimmy Butler without Gasol and Rose.

You take any teams 2nd and 3rd best players away and their teams look thin and weak.

Once again, no one was trashing his teammates when they were all healthy. The problem comes when you've got someone like Delly playing 30+ minutes a game. In their roles they provide great depth to their teams, pushed into starting positions and main parts of the team, they just don't cut it as NBA finals-bound regulars.

That sounds good on paper but you're not factoring in competition and their injuries as well. The Bulls with no Gasol and Rose on a bike between brakes? The Hawks with no Korver, a one legged Carroll, and no Horford last game because of Delly's shenanigans?

Sorry when you take all things into consideration its not tremendously impressive. Had they pulled that off against the Spurs, Grizzlies, Clippers of the world then touché but the east is in shambles.....

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 11:09 AM
They do it to feel justified in not holding Lebron to the standards of other great players when he loses. Or to give him more praise than other great players when he wins. Simply put.

If you think JR, Shumpert, Mozgof,Delly are scrubs you simply don't know or don't watch basketball. Thompson has upgraded their Defense over Love who had found himself routinely getting benched in the 4th quarter prior to the playoffs because he's a defensive liability.

But in the big picture his teammates don't matter, this always happens.They'll tell you his fist Cleveland team was the "worst team to ever make a Finals" and he gets a pass for that L. Then they form the superteam and all the sudden we're supposed to believe 2 of the top 10 players in the league are instantly washed up. Then they add Ray and supposedly he's a scrub( until he saves the series). On and on, the names change but the narrative never does.

Look around, people are warming up their excuses for a finals loss already, its sad. I've never ever seen that with any other great player.

He doesn't need an excuse if he loses to the Warriors. They're a much deeper, better team that's healthier and has HCA. Then when you factor in he'll be missing Love and Irving's health will be questionable the Cavs are expected to win. Some people even think the Warriors are gonna sweep.

KD was given a pass the last two seasons when he's played without Westy and Ibaka and been eliminated from the playoffs. Why is it any different for LeBron when he's missing his two best teammates?

Of course he should get a pass for that first loss. No one expected the Cavs to win a game in that series. They had no business being in the finals. Why should he be criticised for leading a team that wasn't expected to be there when they lose and he's only 22?

Delly, Mozzy, TT, Shump and JR aren't scrubs but they also aren't meant to be big parts of championship teams. How hard is that to understand? They are great in 15-20 minute bursts off the bench but when Matthew Dellavedova is playing 35 minutes in an ECF game you know that team is thin.

flea
05-26-2015, 11:11 AM
I think it's because they subconciously know that he may not have the impact on the game that they want him to, or that his PER/WS numbers suggest. Part of it is being 2-5 in the Finals and having 2 of the losses being utter dismantlements while the 2011 loss to the Mavs was more along the lines of very solidly beaten. Another part is he legitimately had fairly poor teammates, compared to other contenders, for a number of years with Cleveland.

Lebron is a 6'8 260 pound PG on offense, and he racks up a ton of assists by virtue of his drive-and-dish style. He learned in Cleveland lineups with Big Z and shooters that his offenses are virtually unstoppable when he goes 5-out and either takes his man on his own or in a high p&r/pop with his big. He went to Miami and they built his teams around that, and lo and behold the offenses were great much of the time. On defense he splits time between SF and PF and thus collects volume rebounds. He's a good rebounder, don't get me wrong, but a lot of it is opportunity and it really pumps his advanced metrics.

I compare his impact to Drew Brees. You can give reasons why he's putting up stats nobody else in the league is from a volume (and in Brees's case completion %) standpoint - but at the end of the day nobody else is doing it. They are both unique players that the league has never seen before. But even though Brees was putting up 5000 yard seasons with 70% completion and a good amount of TDs, I'd have taken Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers on my teams most of those years over him. I just feel their impact was greater, even if Brees was truly great at what he did. Similarly, Lebron is not without his weaknesses (not a natural scorer and can be slowed down, defensively weak at various times, requires a specific style to really suit his skills, can get gassed if you push him because he plays a very physically taxing style, etc.) but he is IMO the best player to come into the league since 2000. And for whatever it's worth I think he's better than Kobe all-time, but I think it's close and that it's not absurd to have an argument over it.

But he's had among the most talented teams in the league for 5 years running now. We can stop giving him passes for winning or not winning. It's put-up or shut up time, and I think he knows that. He's no longer shooting his ungodly FG% with Cleveland, in part because of decline and in part because he's not constantly surrounded by 4 shooters, but I think he's played pretty well in the playoffs. He's got nothing to apologize for - the rest is just fans like us who want to compare him to other greats.

ewing
05-26-2015, 11:16 AM
He doesn't need an excuse if he loses to the Warriors. They're a much deeper, better team that's healthier and has HCA. Then when you factor in he'll be missing Love and Irving's health will be questionable the Cavs are expected to win. Some people even think the Warriors are gonna sweep.

KD was given a pass the last two seasons when he's played without Westy and Ibaka and been eliminated from the playoffs. Why is it any different for LeBron when he's missing his two best teammates?

Of course he should get a pass for that first loss. No one expected the Cavs to win a game in that series. They had no business being in the finals. Why should he be criticised for leading a team that wasn't expected to be there when they lose and he's only 22?

Delly, Mozzy, TT, Shump and JR aren't scrubs but they also aren't meant to be big parts of championship teams. How hard is that to understand? They are great in 15-20 minute bursts off the bench but when Matthew Dellavedova is playing 35 minutes in an ECF game you know that team is thin.


Ivring was hobbled but he has only missed 2 games and did net 18 a night prior to sitting 2 games. LeBron has had to be a bigger focal point on O and he has taken on the responsibility but Kyrie was not out for the playoffs. As for Shump and JR your backhanded compliments are out of control. Both guys are more then capable of playing more then a 15 mins a night role the right situations. JR is a former 6th man of the year. Shump in a good 3 and D guy that can defend multiple positions. Both guys have played bigger roles then this on teams that were pretty good.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 11:18 AM
That sounds good on paper but you're not factoring in competition and their injuries as well. The Bulls with no Gasol and Rose on a bike between brakes? The Hawks with no Korver, a one legged Carroll, and no Horford last game because of Delly's shenanigans?

Sorry when you take all things into consideration its not tremendously impressive. Had they pulled that off against the Spurs, Grizzlies, Clippers of the world then touché but the east is in shambles.....

But no one would be able to pull that off in the West. That's why KD has had a pass the last two seasons.

You don't find anything LeBron does inpressive so that doesn't surprise me, but if any other player was playing 4 positions and close to sweeping a 60 win team I'm sure you would be impressed.

Once again, take any superstars best two teammates away from him and see how he does in the playoffs regardless of his conference.

God knows what some people will say if LeBron does managed to beat the Warriors and wins Finals MVP :laugh2:

Just for the record, I have the Warriors in 5/6 depending on Irving's health.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 11:31 AM
Ivring was hobbled but he has only missed 2 games and did net 18 a night prior to sitting 2 games. LeBron has had to be a bigger focal point on O and he has taken on the responsibility but Kyrie was not out for the playoffs. As for Shump and JR your backhanded compliments are out of control. Both guys are more then capable of playing more then a 15 mins a night role the right situations. JR is a former 6th man of the year. Shump in a good 3 and D guy that can defend multiple positions. Both guys have played bigger roles then this on teams that were pretty good.

Kyrie was reduced to a spot up shooter in the few games he played in before sitting. A very good one at that, but he wasn't his usual slashing, attacking self.

When the Knicks won 54 games, Shump missed 37 games and only averaged 22 MPG whilst scoring 7 PPG on 39% shooting. He contributed 1.9 win shares that season... Good for 10th on the team. He wasn't a very big part of their success. I didn't mean to group JR in that. He's a great 6th who can give you 25-30 minutes off the bench, but once again, he isn't a #2 option on an NBA finals team.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 11:45 AM
They do it to feel justified in not holding Lebron to the standards of other great players when he loses. Or to give him more praise than other great players when he wins. Simply put.

If you think JR, Shumpert, Mozgof,Delly are scrubs you simply don't know or don't watch basketball. Thompson has upgraded their Defense over Love who had found himself routinely getting benched in the 4th quarter prior to the playoffs because he's a defensive liability.

But in the big picture his teammates don't matter, this always happens.They'll tell you his fist Cleveland team was the "worst team to ever make a Finals" and he gets a pass for that L. Then they form the superteam and all the sudden we're supposed to believe 2 of the top 10 players in the league are instantly washed up. Then they add Ray and supposedly he's a scrub( until he saves the series). On and on, the names change but the narrative never does.

Look around, people are warming up their excuses for a finals loss already, its sad. I've never ever seen that with any other great player.

He doesn't need an excuse if he loses to the Warriors. They're a much deeper, better team that's healthier and has HCA. Then when you factor in he'll be missing Love and Irving's health will be questionable the Cavs are expected to win. Some people even think the Warriors are gonna sweep.

KD was given a pass the last two seasons when he's played without Westy and Ibaka and been eliminated from the playoffs. Why is it any different for LeBron when he's missing his two best teammates?

Of course he should get a pass for that first loss. No one expected the Cavs to win a game in that series. They had no business being in the finals. Why should he be criticised for leading a team that wasn't expected to be there when they lose and he's only 22?

Delly, Mozzy, TT, Shump and JR aren't scrubs but they also aren't meant to be big parts of championship teams. How hard is that to understand? They are great in 15-20 minute bursts off the bench but when Matthew Dellavedova is playing 35 minutes in an ECF game you know that team is thin.

We can agree that Delly is over his head but that's about it. JR and Shump can be a big part of any championship team easily, don't be fooled by that Knicks debacle.

And you keep referring to Love when the team has statistically improved on D with TT in his place. The only thing Love has on him is stretching the floor but TT offensive rebounding giving them more shot opportunities more than compensates for that. There's plenty of debate in Cleveland now in regards do they even want him back so losing him is not like losing a Westbrook big time superstar integral player. He's their "3rd best player" in name and recognition only, but all season long he hasn't been a difference maker for them.

Irving not sure why you mention him at all. Has been on ice since game 2 and will more than likely be just as capable and banged up as everyone else by the time he gets 2 weeks rest under his belt.

And to your point I have Dubs in 6 as well. Not because Cleveland is a one man band but because Steph will be the best player in the series and I love their bench.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 11:57 AM
We can agree that Delly is over his head but that's about it. JR and Shump can be a big part of any championship team easily, don't be fooled by that Knicks debacle.

And you keep referring to Love when the team has statistically improved on D with TT in his place. The only thing Love has on him is stretching the floor but TT offensive rebounding giving them more shot opportunities more than compensates for that. There's plenty of debate in Cleveland now in regards do they even want him back so losing him is not like losing a Westbrook big time superstar integral player. He's their "3rd best player" in name and recognition only, but all season long he hasn't been a difference maker for them.

Irving not sure why you mention him at all. Has been on ice since game 2 and will more than likely be just as capable and banged up as everyone else by the time he gets 2 weeks rest under his belt.

And to your point I have Dubs in 6 as well. Not because Cleveland is a one man band but because Steph will be the best player in the series and I love their bench.

I agree their defense is improved with TT over Love but you can underestimate the spacing Love provided compared to TT. When LeBron is driving into the lane with TT and Mozzy there he's being met by the two bigs because they can't space the floor. Love is an elite floor spacer and a fantastically versatile player on offense.

Without Love they have one PF on the team. They have absolutely no big man depth whatsoever. How many minutes has Perkins played in the playoffs? Brendan Haywood? Just by not having another big man on the bench, Love is missed a huge amount.

Who knows the extent of Kyrie's injury. We won't until game 1 of the Finals. He could be back to 100% or he could still be struggling on his bum knee and ankle.

I think Curry will probably be the best player on the series as well but certainly not the most impactful. He has an extremely deep talented healthy team which allows him to do what he does best. Facilitate and score. LeBron will be the Cavs best scorer, playmaker, rebounder and defender whilst playing minutes at SF, PF and probably C for a short amount of time.

Vee-Rex
05-26-2015, 12:11 PM
We can agree that Delly is over his head but that's about it. JR and Shump can be a big part of any championship team easily, don't be fooled by that Knicks debacle.

And you keep referring to Love when the team has statistically improved on D with TT in his place. The only thing Love has on him is stretching the floor but TT offensive rebounding giving them more shot opportunities more than compensates for that. There's plenty of debate in Cleveland now in regards do they even want him back so losing him is not like losing a Westbrook big time superstar integral player. He's their "3rd best player" in name and recognition only, but all season long he hasn't been a difference maker for them.

Irving not sure why you mention him at all. Has been on ice since game 2 and will more than likely be just as capable and banged up as everyone else by the time he gets 2 weeks rest under his belt.

And to your point I have Dubs in 6 as well. Not because Cleveland is a one man band but because Steph will be the best player in the series and I love their bench.

A player doesn't put up a 19.0 PER and not be a difference maker. Those offensive lulls you saw us go through against the Bulls and Hawks, those were virtually non-existent with Love. We didn't run our offense through him, but contrary to popular belief, we did utilize him in the post/elbow area when our offense wasn't running up 100 points every 2 seconds.

During the season, while Cavs fans were raving (with Kevin Love), others doubted us and said we didn't have playoff experience, couldn't beat ATL/CHI, etc...

Now that we are winning in the playoffs (unfortunately w/o Love), people think we don't need him or aren't as good with him.

Just kinda sucks since people truly don't understand how dominant we were when fully healthy. 27mpg of Tristan Thompson during the regular season was still crucial and effective.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 12:24 PM
it's all relative. i'm sure we would all objectively agree that he has had very average teammates during his career. but if you are going to be held up to guys like Jordan and Kobe it's only fair to point out that his teammates have always been inferior. in doing so words like "trash" get thrown around. it's not literal, it's comparative.

Vee-Rex
05-26-2015, 12:26 PM
Iman has been huge defensively. His defense is severely underrated. When we made the trades, we intended for Iman to be a starter. But he was injured at the time and JR filled in so nicely that by the time Iman came back we didn't want to mess with the chemistry. After JR's two-game suspension, Iman came in and took over.

I wonder how much more effective our defense would have been if Iman was healthy from the getgo.

I think people are still somewhat shocked at what Mozzy/Delly/Iman and JR are accomplishing, but I could've told you guys this 3 months ago.

They still aren't flawless. Delly makes some bonehead plays/turnovers at times and can't dribble downhill to save his life. He lacks speed and is always placing his back to the basket even beyond the arc. Mozzy struggles to hold on to the ball/catch passes and doesn't go up strong when under the basket. Iman is about as perfect of a roleplayer as you can get. JR can make stupid fouls and struggles to stay in front of his man sometimes, and isn't great at fighting around screens.

They're all getting it done though. Great group of roleplayers being enhanced by LBJ (bullet passes and intensity/smart playing). If anyone tell you otherwise they're BS'ing you.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 12:26 PM
It never ends and i don't think i have ever seen it with any other athlete. I was a Knick fan. We never got Pat Ewing any top shelf offensive teammates but Knick fans LOVED John Starks and Charles Oakley. Knick fans probably gave Ewing more grief for not getting it done then the gritty role players they put with him. Every discussion on here that has to do with a LeBron team turns into a discussion about the lack of help he is getting. It doesn't even matter which LeBron team it is or if his team wins or not, or how the supporting caste plays that night.

and in response to OP's comments about Ewing, it wasn't necessary to talk trash about Ewings teammates because he wasn't held up against the best players in the history of the game.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 12:30 PM
First of all this doesn't only happen with James, many greats have this issue on psd. Also while some take it too far there is usually a reason why his teammates are talked about.

Many people on here have called his road a cakewalk this year yet won't take into consideration he is currently playing with role players. Plenty of people had Bulls or Hawks winning a few weeks ago. You get people calling Miami the most stacked team ever (clearly ignoring history of the nba) etc. etc. You are just choosing to focus on one side and probably a few posters on that side.

You get people saying they hope he makes the finals so he has another finals loss because everyone knows gs is better team (as if making finals is worse than early exit). Then when someone mentions this fact you get the "getting the excuses ready" crowd. Why does anyone need excuses before the games are played anyways? People are just pointing out the obvious when talking about his teammates. Sure some take it too far but I have actually seen a good amount of praise for some of the role players (and given it myself in the game threads).

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 12:30 PM
We can agree that Delly is over his head but that's about it. JR and Shump can be a big part of any championship team easily, don't be fooled by that Knicks debacle.

i'm sorry. are you being serious here?

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 12:37 PM
Iman has been huge defensively. His defense is severely underrated. When we made the trades, we intended for Iman to be a starter. But he was injured at the time and JR filled in so nicely that by the time Iman came back we didn't want to mess with the chemistry. After JR's two-game suspension, Iman came in and took over.

I wonder how much more effective our defense would have been if Iman was healthy from the getgo.

I think people are still somewhat shocked at what Mozzy/Delly/Iman and JR are accomplishing, but I could've told you guys this 3 months ago.

They still aren't flawless. Delly makes some bonehead plays/turnovers at times and can't dribble downhill to save his life. He lacks speed and is always placing his back to the basket even beyond the arc. Mozzy struggles to hold on to the ball/catch passes and doesn't go up strong when under the basket. Iman is about as perfect of a roleplayer as you can get. JR can make stupid fouls and struggles to stay in front of his man sometimes, and isn't great at fighting around screens.

They're all getting it done though. Great group of roleplayers being enhanced by LBJ (bullet passes and intensity/smart playing). If anyone tell you otherwise they're BS'ing you.


I agree. That's why I call BS when people act like its a shocker these role players are actually contributing. JR/ Shump/ Mozgof skills are transferable to any team you put them on. Even Delly's production is more a product of more playing time, during the season he definitely had his moments.

Lebron maximizes their talents by garnering all the attention but these dudes can play. They'll give the Dubs a better challenge than Houston, I promise you that!

bucketss
05-26-2015, 12:59 PM
why do lebron haters over hype his teammates to make it seem like he has championship caliber supporting cast?

Teeboy1487
05-26-2015, 01:14 PM
Personally, I give Lebron a lot of credit because he does elevate his teammates to heights they could not achieve with other teams. I'm not bashing his teammates but I did not know who Dellavedova was until Lebron. JR Smith is playing the best basketball he has played since Denver, and man I did not know Mozgov was still in the league. Even Shumpert has admitted to the game being easier now than during his time in New York. With Love out and Irving hobbled since the first round, it's truly impressive how he has led his team to yet another chance at a championship. This is why I would never understand why he decided to team with Wade and Bosh. He did not need them to win.

ewing
05-26-2015, 01:17 PM
and in response to OP's comments about Ewing, it wasn't necessary to talk trash about Ewings teammates because he wasn't held up against the best players in the history of the game.

they played Jordan's Bulls more then anyone and Ewing got **** for not getting it done. i think its just more people follow players today instead of teams.

valade16
05-26-2015, 01:36 PM
I think it's because they subconciously know that he may not have the impact on the game that they want him to, or that his PER/WS numbers suggest. Part of it is being 2-5 in the Finals and having 2 of the losses being utter dismantlements while the 2011 loss to the Mavs was more along the lines of very solidly beaten. Another part is he legitimately had fairly poor teammates, compared to other contenders, for a number of years with Cleveland.

Lebron is a 6'8 260 pound PG on offense, and he racks up a ton of assists by virtue of his drive-and-dish style. He learned in Cleveland lineups with Big Z and shooters that his offenses are virtually unstoppable when he goes 5-out and either takes his man on his own or in a high p&r/pop with his big. He went to Miami and they built his teams around that, and lo and behold the offenses were great much of the time. On defense he splits time between SF and PF and thus collects volume rebounds. He's a good rebounder, don't get me wrong, but a lot of it is opportunity and it really pumps his advanced metrics.

I compare his impact to Drew Brees. You can give reasons why he's putting up stats nobody else in the league is from a volume (and in Brees's case completion %) standpoint - but at the end of the day nobody else is doing it. They are both unique players that the league has never seen before. But even though Brees was putting up 5000 yard seasons with 70% completion and a good amount of TDs, I'd have taken Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers on my teams most of those years over him. I just feel their impact was greater, even if Brees was truly great at what he did. Similarly, Lebron is not without his weaknesses (not a natural scorer and can be slowed down, defensively weak at various times, requires a specific style to really suit his skills, can get gassed if you push him because he plays a very physically taxing style, etc.) but he is IMO the best player to come into the league since 2000. And for whatever it's worth I think he's better than Kobe all-time, but I think it's close and that it's not absurd to have an argument over it.

But he's had among the most talented teams in the league for 5 years running now. We can stop giving him passes for winning or not winning. It's put-up or shut up time, and I think he knows that. He's no longer shooting his ungodly FG% with Cleveland, in part because of decline and in part because he's not constantly surrounded by 4 shooters, but I think he's played pretty well in the playoffs. He's got nothing to apologize for - the rest is just fans like us who want to compare him to other greats.

I agree with most of what you said, but by 5 years running do you mean this season as well?

You would really take Cleveland's supporting cast over Golden States?

flea
05-26-2015, 01:51 PM
I agree with most of what you said, but by 5 years running do you mean this season as well?

You would really take Cleveland's supporting cast over Golden States?

Ya the Heat's 4 and this year. Always among the most talented teams in the league. BTW I said "among," because I agree that GS is more talented this year (they have at least 2 players on the bench who would start for 20 teams in the league, and a 3rd who doesn't even get minutes but would at worst be a great 6th man for most teams).

Over the last 10 years there is the 08 Celtics, maybe the 09 Lakers when it was clicking, all 4 years of the Heat, the 07 Spurs, 15 Warriors, and this year's Cavs IMO in terms of top talent. 14 Spurs were pretty talented but I wouldn't quite put them in that class in spite of their dominant postseason run (even though it was one of the most dominant ever, if not the most dominant ever).

crewfan13
05-26-2015, 02:31 PM
I struggle with Lebron and his supporting cast in the same way that its tough to judge a guy like Peyton Manning and his supporting cast. When Indy lost Peyton, they were horrible. A big part of that was because Peyton is one of the best qbs in the league, if not of all time. But another part of that was because the team was built almost uniquely for Peyton Manning. Their offense relied on his brain, they planned on scoring a ton, and their defense was built for shootouts by being good at rushing the passer and trying to create turnovers. Even if the Colts qbs wouldn't have been historically bad, that team still would have stunk without a top 3 qb, because it was built to Peyton's strengths.

I think the same can be said of Lebron. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone really thinks this current Cavs roster (no Love with a limited Kyrie) would be any good without Lebron, so naturally, most of the teams that made it this deep in the playoffs had better supporting casts. But, there's also the flip side of the argument that this team was assembled to work off of Lebron (and Kyrie when healthy). I'm not sure guys like Shump, JR and Mozgov necessarily fit into any championship caliber team seamlessly, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that those guys are pretty good fits around Lebron. So while I would agree that his supporting cast isn't that good on paper, it fits him pretty well.

But still, if the Cavs lose to GS, I don't think that should diminish Lebron's accomplishments this season. He's carried this team down the stretch, basically with 40% of the payroll sitting out or being very limited (Love, Kyrie and AV). I understand that percentage of payroll isn't a completely accurate assessment of talent on the roster, but it still puts a damper on that team, even if the other supporting pieces around Lebron fit well. I think there can be a balance between both sides, but it never occurs, because in today's sports news cycle with all the hot takes, you have to sit so far on one side of the fence or the other. I think we should recognize that Lebron's supporting cast, especially with the health right now, isn't great, but it fits him fairly well. I think it dates back to the corny old adage that for this current Cavs team, the team as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, mostly because of Lebron, but that doesn't automatically make it a failure if they don't win a championship.

Chronz
05-26-2015, 02:36 PM
cuz look at them without him

ewing
05-26-2015, 04:27 PM
I don't think it's just Lebron fans. I think it's all fans. Whether it's Kobe fan, Lebron fan, Duncan fan, Shaq fan, etc. If you're a fan of an all-time great player, you probably care about where that player sits in any all-time or historical discussions. And you'll use any stat or article or piece of evidence you can find to support that argument. I do it all the time. I think most fans do. But I'm totally fine with that. I think having that historical perspective and recognizing it makes sports far more interesting. The important thing, though, is to just make sure we don't become too biased. I try my best not to let y love for Lebron cloud my judgment of how great Duncan and Kobe were, for example.

i actually fine it annoying, like that how would Micheal do with this Cavs team,could be interesting, no one will actually put any thought into how you would utilize the current roster with MJ however. Thats not really what the thread is for


I haven't really paid any attention to the Cleveland/Atlanta thread as I've obviously got more important stuff on my plate right now. But if anybody were to say Atlanta hasn't had its fair share of obstacles, they're insane. The Hawks have had to deal with every bit as many issues as the Cavaliers have in this series. But in Lebron and the Cavaliers' defense, the Cavs are up 3-0 and are 2-0 in Atlanta.

If both teams are riddled with injuries, neither team has any excuses. You still have to win the game. Cleveland has. Atlanta hasn't. :shrug:


I agree, but if you look on any LeBron thread you don't have to go far to fine a post about how LeBron is destroying the 60 win Hawks with no help. He is, its just disingenuous to act like the Hawks are at their strongest while the Cavs are hobbled. Props to LeBron and the Cavs, i thought they would have a harder time without Kyrie. Like i said, i think it comes down to people rooting for players more then teams anymore.

Vee-Rex
05-26-2015, 04:38 PM
I struggle with Lebron and his supporting cast in the same way that its tough to judge a guy like Peyton Manning and his supporting cast. When Indy lost Peyton, they were horrible. A big part of that was because Peyton is one of the best qbs in the league, if not of all time. But another part of that was because the team was built almost uniquely for Peyton Manning. Their offense relied on his brain, they planned on scoring a ton, and their defense was built for shootouts by being good at rushing the passer and trying to create turnovers. Even if the Colts qbs wouldn't have been historically bad, that team still would have stunk without a top 3 qb, because it was built to Peyton's strengths.

I think the same can be said of Lebron. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone really thinks this current Cavs roster (no Love with a limited Kyrie) would be any good without Lebron, so naturally, most of the teams that made it this deep in the playoffs had better supporting casts. But, there's also the flip side of the argument that this team was assembled to work off of Lebron (and Kyrie when healthy). I'm not sure guys like Shump, JR and Mozgov necessarily fit into any championship caliber team seamlessly, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that those guys are pretty good fits around Lebron. So while I would agree that his supporting cast isn't that good on paper, it fits him pretty well.

But still, if the Cavs lose to GS, I don't think that should diminish Lebron's accomplishments this season. He's carried this team down the stretch, basically with 40% of the payroll sitting out or being very limited (Love, Kyrie and AV). I understand that percentage of payroll isn't a completely accurate assessment of talent on the roster, but it still puts a damper on that team, even if the other supporting pieces around Lebron fit well. I think there can be a balance between both sides, but it never occurs, because in today's sports news cycle with all the hot takes, you have to sit so far on one side of the fence or the other. I think we should recognize that Lebron's supporting cast, especially with the health right now, isn't great, but it fits him fairly well. I think it dates back to the corny old adage that for this current Cavs team, the team as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, mostly because of Lebron, but that doesn't automatically make it a failure if they don't win a championship.

Top notch post, man.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 04:43 PM
they played Jordan's Bulls more then anyone and Ewing got **** for not getting it done. i think its just more people follow players today instead of teams.

i'm just answering the question man. nobody thought Ewing was the best player in the game so there was no need for the average fan to over-scrutinize his teammates play.

ewing
05-26-2015, 04:43 PM
Top notch post, man.

i disagree with you sometimes Vee-Rex but i think you have a much more level view of things then LeBron fans b/c you actually are a Cavs fan. LeBron fans will never give credit to Shump D. "He's trash, he didn't play well i a terrible knicks team" etc

Saddletramp
05-26-2015, 04:49 PM
Like i said, i think it comes down to people rooting for players more then teams anymore.

The only reason I hope LeBron does well is because of guys being buttholes to him. If guys would stop hating on him so much I wouldn't care.

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 04:50 PM
i disagree with you sometimes Vee-Rex but i think you have a much more level view of things then LeBron fans b/c you actually are a Cavs fan. LeBron fans will never give credit to Shump D. "He's trash, he didn't play well i a terrible knicks team" etc

Out of curiosity where do you see this stuff (after the trades, I know many people thought this before)? I've seen a couple posters say things like this but not many. In the game threads tons of people have talked up the role players.

ewing
05-26-2015, 04:58 PM
Out of curiosity where do you see this stuff (after the trades, I know many people thought this before)? I've seen a couple posters say things like this but not many. In the game threads tons of people have talked up the role players.


haven't been active in the games threads the last couple times out, but that is good, it seems a pretty common thing in the non game thread though. people can't even talk about the teams anymore- it just about history and individual legacy

mngopher35
05-26-2015, 05:37 PM
haven't been active in the games threads the last couple times out, but that is good, it seems a pretty common thing in the non game thread though. people can't even talk about the teams anymore- it just about history and individual legacy

I think I said that in a post already today haha. I don't get why people are so focused on what might potentially happen to someone's legacy if their team wins. It's almost like how these guys play individually doesn't matter we just put everything into a hypothetical based solely on a team result. It's crazy.

I think there are a few who will try and diminish their roster to prop Lebron but for the most part people have been pretty high on guys like tt, Shump, JR (way different than how they were seen pre trade).

krazylegz
05-26-2015, 11:38 PM
ttt

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:13 AM
You guys really need to see this team operate when LeBron ISN'T on the court and they are playing a legitimate team. They would look like a lottery team. I'm sorry but that is the truth. GSW came back when Curry was out for half the game. This Cavs team wouldn't come back from jack if they were down that many points. It's easy to say they were this or that but the truth is, Smith has been criticized as a clown for much of his career. From his reputation of getting emotional and striking players, to him not showing any dedication and jacking shots, he has been a completely new player. Coincidence? Shump was injured and many people insisted he was injury prone as hell. In fact, NYK traded both for a late 2nd round for the year 2019. When that happened, everyone said "They traded Waiters for J.R. Smith, what's the difference?" You know the difference; it's LeBron. I know it has become a cliche these days but no other player can do that. Delly went from being unknown to the starting PG asked to guard Rose/Teague. Mosgov was a posterboy for Blake Griffin. Thompson has no offense at all, I'm sorry but it is true. Wanna talk about James Jones? All he does is shoot threes. Who else really? Love/Irving were out and he still took them to the Finals. We talk about Cleveland being stacked because of Love/Irving but when they are out, you guys STILL find ways to call it stacked. This Cavs team without James/Love/Irving is no better than any other EC team that hasn't made the playoffs... that's the truth.

ewing
05-27-2015, 08:12 AM
You guys really need to see this team operate when LeBron ISN'T on the court and they are playing a legitimate team. They would look like a lottery team. I'm sorry but that is the truth. GSW came back when Curry was out for half the game. This Cavs team wouldn't come back from jack if they were down that many points. It's easy to say they were this or that but the truth is, Smith has been criticized as a clown for much of his career. From his reputation of getting emotional and striking players, to him not showing any dedication and jacking shots, he has been a completely new player. Coincidence? Shump was injured and many people insisted he was injury prone as hell. In fact, NYK traded both for a late 2nd round for the year 2019. When that happened, everyone said "They traded Waiters for J.R. Smith, what's the difference?" You know the difference; it's LeBron. I know it has become a cliche these days but no other player can do that. Delly went from being unknown to the starting PG asked to guard Rose/Teague. Mosgov was a posterboy for Blake Griffin. Thompson has no offense at all, I'm sorry but it is true. Wanna talk about James Jones? All he does is shoot threes. Who else really? Love/Irving were out and he still took them to the Finals. We talk about Cleveland being stacked because of Love/Irving but when they are out, you guys STILL find ways to call it stacked. This Cavs team without James/Love/Irving is no better than any other EC team that hasn't made the playoffs... that's the truth.


I lineup like Irving, Shump, JR, TT, and Moz are more then capable of going on a run in a game. in this series we saw the Cavs go on a run while JR was unconscious and Kyrie and James were not on the floor. In these playoffs we saw Corey Brewer and Josh Smith lead a huge run in a game. Your post is stupid.

ewing
05-27-2015, 08:21 AM
A player doesn't put up a 19.0 PER and not be a difference maker. Those offensive lulls you saw us go through against the Bulls and Hawks, those were virtually non-existent with Love. We didn't run our offense through him, but contrary to popular belief, we did utilize him in the post/elbow area when our offense wasn't running up 100 points every 2 seconds.

During the season, while Cavs fans were raving (with Kevin Love), others doubted us and said we didn't have playoff experience, couldn't beat ATL/CHI, etc...

Now that we are winning in the playoffs (unfortunately w/o Love), people think we don't need him or aren't as good with him.

Just kinda sucks since people truly don't understand how dominant we were when fully healthy. 27mpg of Tristan Thompson during the regular season was still crucial and effective.


IDK, do you really think Love's absence has hurt them that much on O? You have watched the team more then me but i have been giving more credit to the Bulls playoff D plus and a hobbled Irving. TT is netting around 10 night with nothing called for him, getting extra possessions, and while he doesn't spread you out to the 3 point line i do think people have become reluctant to help off of him b/c of how hard he hits the glass on the offensive end (teams are face guarding him now). It tough to make real judgement especially b/c Kyrie hasn't been 100%. I think moving forward love should start to fit better and it would be best for the Cavs if he returned but right i am not sure if i would want to cut into TT mins so Love could spread the floor. Now there maybe games in the finals where LBJ gets in foul trouble and you think holy **** i wish we had Kevin Love but i am unsure overall.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 08:56 AM
I think it's because they subconciously know that he may not have the impact on the game that they want him to, or that his PER/WS numbers suggest. Part of it is being 2-5 in the Finals and having 2 of the losses being utter dismantlements while the 2011 loss to the Mavs was more along the lines of very solidly beaten. Another part is he legitimately had fairly poor teammates, compared to other contenders, for a number of years with Cleveland.

Lebron is a 6'8 260 pound PG on offense, and he racks up a ton of assists by virtue of his drive-and-dish style. He learned in Cleveland lineups with Big Z and shooters that his offenses are virtually unstoppable when he goes 5-out and either takes his man on his own or in a high p&r/pop with his big. He went to Miami and they built his teams around that, and lo and behold the offenses were great much of the time. On defense he splits time between SF and PF and thus collects volume rebounds. He's a good rebounder, don't get me wrong, but a lot of it is opportunity and it really pumps his advanced metrics.

I compare his impact to Drew Brees. You can give reasons why he's putting up stats nobody else in the league is from a volume (and in Brees's case completion %) standpoint - but at the end of the day nobody else is doing it. They are both unique players that the league has never seen before. But even though Brees was putting up 5000 yard seasons with 70% completion and a good amount of TDs, I'd have taken Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers on my teams most of those years over him. I just feel their impact was greater, even if Brees was truly great at what he did. Similarly, Lebron is not without his weaknesses (not a natural scorer and can be slowed down, defensively weak at various times, requires a specific style to really suit his skills, can get gassed if you push him because he plays a very physically taxing style, etc.) but he is IMO the best player to come into the league since 2000. And for whatever it's worth I think he's better than Kobe all-time, but I think it's close and that it's not absurd to have an argument over it.

But he's had among the most talented teams in the league for 5 years running now. We can stop giving him passes for winning or not winning. It's put-up or shut up time, and I think he knows that. He's no longer shooting his ungodly FG% with Cleveland, in part because of decline and in part because he's not constantly surrounded by 4 shooters, but I think he's played pretty well in the playoffs. He's got nothing to apologize for - the rest is just fans like us who want to compare him to other greats.
First off, Lebron isn't 2-5 in the Finals. He's 2-3. Secondly, football and basketball are not remotely apples to apples comparisons. And even if it was, Brees would be an atrocious comparison as he's a short, not particularly athletic QB with little deep ball ability. Manning with his freakish basketball IQ, Luck with his insane physical gifts or Rodgers with his excellent overall game would be much better comparisons.

Regardless of all that, I do understand your overall point. At first I found it nonsensical, but I suppose a Lebron fan might devalue his teammates to try and inflate the idea that Lebron elevates the players around him.

Personally, I don't think that way. I also don't think in terms of NFL comparisons. I think in terms of historical NBA comparisons. Look at the talent surrounding other great wings and forwards in NBA history that had postseason success. MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Kobe had Shaq and Pau. Bird had McHale and Parish. Magic had Kareem and Worthy. Those guys won exactly zero titles without another Hall of Famer on their rosters playing in their primes. None. So why is it that Lebron gets criticized for losing the 2005 Finals with a crap roster against a stacked San Antonio squad? Or last year with a past-his-prime Wade against another elite Spurs squad? The Mavs series I understand. The guy deserves plenty of criticism for that, and he choked in epic fashion. But I don't think the criticism he receives is fair for the other two, and I don't think it would be fair if they lose to Golden State as long as he plays really well.

I've said it a million times, but I don't understand the logic of criticizing a player for losing in the Finals while giving plenty of leeway to players for not making the Finals in the first place. And when you consider the talent around Lebron in 2005 and this season, to a lesser extent, that's absolutely an accomplishment.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 09:52 AM
Ewing, stop it. Those guys were nobodies. I don't need you to tell me otherwise when I went through that trade thread and saw how many people thought it wasn't gonna do much. Part of what made those three work so well is the fact that they love playing with Bron. You can't just do that with anyone. Shump/Smith NEVER played this well with Melo. I get that Smith was the sixth man but when did he ever play this well when it mattered and it isn't how well he played that only matters, it's how he has conducted himself.

Vee-Rex
05-27-2015, 10:01 AM
IDK, do you really think Love's absence has hurt them that much on O? You have watched the team more then me but i have been giving more credit to the Bulls playoff D plus and a hobbled Irving. TT is netting around 10 night with nothing called for him, getting extra possessions, and while he doesn't spread you out to the 3 point line i do think people have become reluctant to help off of him b/c of how hard he hits the glass on the offensive end (teams are face guarding him now). It tough to make real judgement especially b/c Kyrie hasn't been 100%. I think moving forward love should start to fit better and it would be best for the Cavs if he returned but right i am not sure if i would want to cut into TT mins so Love could spread the floor. Now there maybe games in the finals where LBJ gets in foul trouble and you think holy **** i wish we had Kevin Love but i am unsure overall.

You make a great point about players trying to stick with Tristan to prevent the offensive rebound. I hadn't thought of that before.

I think with TT, our team is able to cover up for the loss of a player of Kevin Love's caliber incredibly. We are able to minimize the loss... but watching this team, I don't think we're better without Love.

I used to love (no pun intended) when we ran a lineup of Thompson/Love/Bron/JR(or Shumpert)/Irving. Love and Thompson played very well together. Right now when we want to run Thompson at the Center, we need to put James Jones at the 4. If Bron is at the 4 we'll play both Shumps and JR instead of just one.

Although Love isn't as good as a 3pt shooter as Jones, if he gets hot it doesn't matter too much. Love rebounds 43290824x better than Jones (teams get offensive rebounds like mad when Jones is at the 4), Love passes better, defends better (simply having a bigger body), and basically does everything better.

So while our loss of Love is incredibly mitigated by the play of Thompson, we are unable to run lineups that can truly be dominating featuring both at the same time, and instead have to plug in James Jones who sucks at everything but 3pt shooting.

ewing
05-27-2015, 10:09 AM
You make a great point about players trying to stick with Tristan to prevent the offensive rebound. I hadn't thought of that before.

I think with TT, our team is able to cover up for the loss of a player of Kevin Love's caliber incredibly. We are able to minimize the loss... but watching this team, I don't think we're better without Love.

I used to love (no pun intended) when we ran a lineup of Thompson/Love/Bron/JR(or Shumpert)/Irving. Love and Thompson played very well together. Right now when we want to run Thompson at the Center, we need to put James Jones at the 4. If Bron is at the 4 we'll play both Shumps and JR instead of just one.

Although Love isn't as good as a 3pt shooter as Jones, if he gets hot it doesn't matter too much. Love rebounds 43290824x better than Jones (teams get offensive rebounds like mad when Jones is at the 4), Love passes better, defends better (simply having a bigger body), and basically does everything better.

So while our loss of Love is incredibly mitigated by the play of Thompson, we are unable to run lineups that can truly be dominating featuring both at the same time, and instead have to plug in James Jones who sucks at everything but 3pt shooting.



i think people are taking things a little far when it comes to James Jones' 10 mins a night being something to give major consideration to. his playing 10 mins a night might be made up for by TT playing and extra 10 a night instead of love- if you guys are better right now with TT on the court. You do make a good point with regard to the Cavs having more possible combination including lineups with both love and TT.

ewing
05-27-2015, 10:13 AM
Ewing, stop it. Those guys were nobodies. I don't need you to tell me otherwise when I went through that trade thread and saw how many people thought it wasn't gonna do much. Part of what made those three work so well is the fact that they love playing with Bron. You can't just do that with anyone. Shump/Smith NEVER played this well with Melo. I get that Smith was the sixth man but when did he ever play this well when it mattered and it isn't how well he played that only matters, it's how he has conducted himself.

Your post is stupid.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:15 AM
Your post is stupid.

And you can't disclaim it. Thanks.

ewing
05-27-2015, 10:23 AM
And you can't disclaim it. Thanks.

never had claim to it. It is 100% yours :)

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 10:27 AM
Your post is stupid.

Why? The guy made some excellent points. Now it's not true that Smith never played this well with Melo in the regular season. But in the postseason? That's absolutely true. Go back and look at Smith's production in the playoffs with New York and Denver, and there were some pretty mediocre to abysmal performances in there. Aside from 07-08 (a 4-game sweep which hardly counts), this is Smith's best postseason in terms of PER, TS% and WS/48.

As for Shumpert, statistically he has pretty much been the same player. But I do think his defensive capabilities are more appreciated by a team that embraces quality team defense.

valade16
05-27-2015, 10:37 AM
Which of LeBron's teammates outside of Kyrie/Love would start on SA, Atl, LAC, GS ?

Would any?

kdspurman
05-27-2015, 10:42 AM
Which of LeBron's teammates outside of Kyrie/Love would start on SA, Atl, LAC, GS ?

Would any?

They may not start but doesn't mean they can't come off the bench and play a big role. (Like Crawford or Manu/Diaw for example who may not start but play bigger roles than starters have most times)

ewing
05-27-2015, 10:47 AM
Which of LeBron's teammates outside of Kyrie/Love would start on SA, Atl, LAC, GS ?

Would any?


IDK if Love and Kyrie start on all those team but if they did you would be winning 2 out of 4 match ups. I do think Moz is better then Spliter. Shump is also a possible starter over JJ or Barnes on the Clips. I think the Clips would better for it. JR over Barnes as well.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 10:48 AM
They may not start but doesn't mean they can't come off the bench and play a big role. (Like Crawford or Manu/Diaw for example who may not start but play bigger roles than starters have most times)
Yeah. I think Mozgov, Shumpert, Smith and Thompson would all at least crack the rotation on those teams. And Dellavedova would at least crack the rotation for the Clippers. I still don't think this Cleveland team is as deep as I've seen some posters claim, but they're not the dumpster fire of a basketball team that others are claiming, either. If you took Lebron off this team, they probably still win 30 games. It's not remotely the train wreck that was the Cavs after Lebron left.

valade16
05-27-2015, 11:57 AM
They may not start but doesn't mean they can't come off the bench and play a big role. (Like Crawford or Manu/Diaw for example who may not start but play bigger roles than starters have most times)

True, but most aren't arguing they couldn't play, they are arguing they are playing more than they should because Cleveland isn't as good as the other championship contending teams.

And this kind of proves that point. They are quality bench pieces on a championship contending team, but on the Cavs they are being asked to start and play heavy minutes. So they are capable of playing, but they are being asked to do more than their talent dictates on this team at this moment.

ewing
05-27-2015, 12:16 PM
True, but most aren't arguing they couldn't play, they are arguing they are playing more than they should because Cleveland isn't as good as the other championship contending teams.

And this kind of proves that point. They are quality bench pieces on a championship contending team, but on the Cavs they are being asked to start and play heavy minutes. So they are capable of playing, but they are being asked to do more than their talent dictates on this team at this moment.


I don't see this giant talent disparity outside of GS. GS is stacked. Of course they aren't winning **** without Bron but it seems like we are comparing the lesser starters and big bench guys on the contenders and i don't see a huge difference.

I think both TT and Moz are better then Thigo- the Spurs starting center. I think Redick is better then JR and Shump but honestly think the Clipper would be better off with Shump or a focused JR then JJ- so how much better is he. I think Shump and JR are better then matt barnes and of course anyone is better then Big Baby and Hedo. I don't think any of those guys start for the Hawks but they would be big bench players and Love and Ivring might be more talented then anyone on Hawk's roster. Also think Shump and JR and better then JT and TT is better Terrence Jones though Jones/Smith are a better fit for Houston

Again, they don't win **** without Bron but not every contender has an all star at all 5 spots. Again i don't see this huge disparity

ewing
05-27-2015, 12:31 PM
^^ this guy knows whats up

Chronz
05-27-2015, 12:37 PM
i think people are taking things a little far when it comes to James Jones' 10 mins a night being something to give major consideration to. his playing 10 mins a night might be made up for by TT playing and extra 10 a night instead of love- if you guys are better right now with TT on the court. You do make a good point with regard to the Cavs having more possible combination including lineups with both love and TT.

Why tho. You can lose the game within those minutes and you're still disregarding the trinkle down effect of optimizing the minutes and offensive load of everyone else. Their offense is so vanilla without love

flea
05-27-2015, 01:13 PM
First off, Lebron isn't 2-5 in the Finals. He's 2-3. Secondly, football and basketball are not remotely apples to apples comparisons. And even if it was, Brees would be an atrocious comparison as he's a short, not particularly athletic QB with little deep ball ability. Manning with his freakish basketball IQ, Luck with his insane physical gifts or Rodgers with his excellent overall game would be much better comparisons.

Yeah I meant 2 of 5, think everyone got that. I know other sport comparisons can sometimes get muddled but let me explain further. First in case you're not an NFL fan, Brees was one of the more athletic QBs in his prime and still is pretty athletic, in addition to having a very good deep ball (arm strength probably about middle-pack for starting NFL QBs). But I wasn't comparing their physiques in the least - simply the fact that they put up gigantic stats as a result of the systems they play in.

BTW I am a Saints fan so I am not slighting Lebron in the least with the comparison, just showing how parsing the elites of the game based on a few counting stats here and there is a poor approach.

mightybosstone
05-27-2015, 01:58 PM
Yeah I meant 2 of 5, think everyone got that. I know other sport comparisons can sometimes get muddled but let me explain further. First in case you're not an NFL fan, Brees was one of the more athletic QBs in his prime and still is pretty athletic, in addition to having a very good deep ball (arm strength probably about middle-pack for starting NFL QBs).
I wasn't really commenting on Brees as a general athlete, but more about his ability to run and be a dual threat QB. I know he was a really good baseball player coming out of high school and probably could have gone either way at Purdue. As for his long ball, it's average and hardly spectacular. As far as overall athletes go, I just think Brees is a poor comparison for Lebron because Lebron is so much more physically gifted than Brees.


But I wasn't comparing their physiques in the least - simply the fact that they put up gigantic stats as a result of the systems they play in.
I'm going to go ahead and agree to completely disagree on this. Lebron can thrive in ANY offensive system. He's that good of a player. The idea that he needs to have shooters around him to be successful isn't a Lebron-centric idea. That's ANY decent NBA team. If you want to be successful offensively in the league today, you have to be able to move the ball and space the floor with quality 3-point shooters.

Don't believe me? Pop quiz. Which three teams have made more 3-pointers in the postseason than any other teams in the league? Golden State, Cleveland and Houston. The only three teams left in the playoffs. The top five teams in the NBA in the regular season were Houston, Golden State, LAC, Cleveland and Atlanta, aka the last five teams remaining in the playoffs. It's common sense in the NBA at this point. Teams that shoot the 3-pointer well succeed. Teams that don't tend to struggle more.

The idea that Lebron needs shooters around him to thrive, I think, stems from the fact that he acts as the de facto point guard on pretty much any team he plays on and is capable of playing elite team defense. Normally you'd want your point guard running the offense with shooters on the wings and capable team defense. Since Lebron handles so much of that, he doesn't require a traditional point guard or an elite defensive PF next to him. So surrounding him with shooters just makes sense. But that doesn't mean he HAS to have shooters around him 24/7 or a stretch 4 to be successful. He won two titles with Wade (a terrible 3-point shooter), and Lebron's Cavaliers have reached the Finals twice now with Varejao and Thompson starting at the 4 despite not being competent 3-point shooters.


BTW I am a Saints fan so I am not slighting Lebron in the least with the comparison, just showing how parsing the elites of the game based on a few counting stats here and there is a poor approach.
In Brees' case, I do believe he needs to play within that system to be successful. He's a great QB, but he's king of the check down, which is why he needs to have good receiving backs and tight ends on the roster to be successful.

Brees just simply isn't the Lebron James of NFL quarterbacks. Frankly, I'm not sure if there is one. Luck and Rodgers are the closest I can think of because of their athleticism and versatility. But Luck is a little too mistake prone and Rodgers isn't quite the physical specimen that Lebron is from a football perspective.

flea
05-27-2015, 02:24 PM
Brees is one of the best HS QBs in the history of the state of Texas, which is saying quite a lot. He was the best QB in the Big 10 in college, he was a top 5 QB in San Diego before his shoulder injury, and was a top 5 QB pretty much every year in New Orleans. To say he's a system QB is like saying Tom Brady is one. In fact it's worse because Brees has been a successul QB his entire life. QBs with their quick release, accuracy, arm, and IQ thrive in any system. No Brady and Brees aren't Peyton Manning (who is basically a prototype of a complete QB, like Michael is to basketball players), but neither was Joe Montana or Steve Young. And Lebron is no Michael, from the standpoint of being a complete player.

Watch more Brees if that's really what you think, you're missing one of the 2 or 3 most fun offenses to watch of the last 20 years if you don't.

flea
05-27-2015, 02:27 PM
Also, look at Lebron's precipitous scoring decline this year to see how much it affects him to play with 2 traditional bigs. Hell he's shooting like 42% in the playoffs and turning the ball over nearly 5 times a game. Yes he's still playing very well because he's a top 5 player - but to say it doesn't matter what you put around him just isn't in jive with reality. If that were true they'd have played with more big men in Miami instead of James Jones and Rashard Lewis because they were very rebound-starved.