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IKnowHoops
05-25-2015, 03:56 AM
If the Cavs Sweep and Bron dominates, does he take the #1 spot and dethrone MJ

DubbyDubbs
05-25-2015, 04:18 AM
Lol

Bruno
05-25-2015, 04:19 AM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

Phantom Dreamer
05-25-2015, 04:21 AM
Please, make it stop. If LeBron shaves his head, will he be the greatest bald player?

ThunderRoad75
05-25-2015, 04:33 AM
The Cavs will not Sweep Warriors!!

Iron24th
05-25-2015, 04:59 AM
The Cavs will not Sweep Warriors!!

And I would add, will the cavs win one game?

JasonJohnHorn
05-25-2015, 06:17 AM
No. That's be 3 rings to 6. It's only half.

I don't hold his 2/4 in the finals against him. That first team he got to the finals had no business being there. He will that team that far and that was an amazing accomplishment. With that coach and that roster, Jordan would have done no better.


And to be frank, the Spurs were the better team in 2014 and 2013. The fact he was able to come away with one ring out of those two series is impressive. Keep in mind, the Spurs were one defensive rebounding away from winning in 2013 in game six.

But 3 rings to 6?

koreancabbage
05-25-2015, 06:27 AM
wtf no. LOL

lakerfan85
05-25-2015, 07:42 AM
Only on PSD..

blom85
05-25-2015, 07:45 AM
I didn't know that rings defined you so much, I guess I'll take Robert Horry over %90 of the guys on this list......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

koreancabbage
05-25-2015, 08:18 AM
If he gets a championship this year, he would have a much better argument against the Kobe though - who seems to be the peer of measurement nowadays, though Duncan > Kobe.

3 Finals MVPs is pretty legit if the Cavs win.

I just don't see them beating the Warriors though. They are much much better team from 1-12.

FraziersKnicks
05-25-2015, 08:41 AM
No, but if he can lead the Cavs to the title against GS and wins Finals MVP, I think that vaults him to top 5 discussion.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 08:43 AM
He would clearly pass guys like Shaq and Bird but still trail Kobe and Duncan and need significantly more to reach the MJ-Magic-KAJ level.

FraziersKnicks
05-25-2015, 08:46 AM
If he gets a championship this year, he would have a much better argument against the Kobe though - who seems to be the peer of measurement nowadays, though Duncan > Kobe.

3 Finals MVPs is pretty legit if the Cavs win.

I just don't see them beating the Warriors though. They are much much better team from 1-12.

If LeBron can lead the Cavs to a title against the Warriors, the LeBron/Kobe argument is dead. I've already got LeBron above him anyway, but there would be zero argument if LeBron could pull that off.

For the record, I have Warriors in 5/6. They're fully healthy and just have too much depth. A vastly superior team to the Cavs.

ManRam
05-25-2015, 09:10 AM
they wont. and no.

it would be a huge feat and legacy defining, but no. not mj.

tredigs
05-25-2015, 09:27 AM
If Curry plays like he's been playing and they sweep the Cavs, does he pass Lebron All Time?

PurpleLynch
05-25-2015, 09:32 AM
These "ifs" scenarios are getting more and more ridiculous.

Plus I've never understand the race to the GOAT.
Players are different and bball is a team game,why put individuality above all else?
MJ is considered by the majority of bball fans to be the greatest,but without those Bulls teams and PJax,he's going anywhere,like any other player of the planet.

Tiers are the only existent "lesser evil" to judge players imo.
I'm tired of remembering great players based on how they are close to MJ. (Plus imo KAJ is the one also that should be considered in the discussion for Goat).

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 09:41 AM
IKNOWHOOPS,

I know you're an avid LeBron fan. But your posts in regard to GS reflect ignorance. You obviously haven't watched them play much at all. They are the real deal. They are a better team than the Cavs. Remember when I said the Hawks don't worry me at all? GS does, very much so. IMO, a healthy Love and Irving makes us about even with them, and that's with me being pro-Cavs. I'd understand if others would still put GS over us in that scenario. That's how good they are.

Not trying to be confrontational, but do understand you're making yourself look very ignorant here with the whole sweep thing.

I DO think the Cavs are/were being vastly underrated and won't get swept. I think it'll be a 7 game series (if Irving is FULLY HEALTHY). Of course I'm going for Cleveland here. :)

Sly Guy
05-25-2015, 09:41 AM
if the cavs sweep the finals, it automatically makes him a better swimmer than phelps

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 09:45 AM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

thats sort of a team accomplishment, im not sure why people put that on an individual. You could look at it and say, half the time hes been in the finals- he took a team that wouldnt make the playoffs withput him. ANd seeing as hes been in the east all his career, that means the teams would be pretty horrible.

ManRam
05-25-2015, 09:51 AM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

With the context that he overachieved like hell to get 2 of those teams there. People using him getting to the Finals in 2007 and 2015 against him would be quite, quite, quite bizarre.

chi-townlove1
05-25-2015, 09:58 AM
Nothing this man does will have him topple MJ. Get over it. End of discussion.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 10:04 AM
With the context that he overachieved like hell to get 2 of those teams there. People using him getting to the Finals in 2007 and 2015 against him would be quite, quite, quite bizarre.

Pretty sure Cavs were the odds on favorite to beat Celtics (one of the worst playoff rosters of all time), Bulls and a Hawks team thats been playing like garbage for well over a month now.

ManRam
05-25-2015, 10:16 AM
Pretty sure Cavs were the odds on favorite to beat Celtics, Bulls and a Hawks team thats been playing like garbage for well over a month now.

Fair enough. Still, this isn't a team half as talented as the Warriors are. They'll be underdogs, probably significant ones.

I guess the point here is: isn't getting to the Finals and losing to a better team better than not getting to the Finals? That's the problem with simply stating Finals record without acknowledging anything else. For example, by the time LeBron had been to the Finals (4th year) Jordan had lost in the first round 3 times (swept once) and lost in 5 games in the conference finals that 4th year. But when we just reduce it to Finals records we ignore losses prior to the Finals as if they aren't worse. In terms of team success, it's used in a way to make LeBron look worse than Jordan at that point in their careers despite having far more team success. It matters, and it means something, but stating it on its own to support the claim it's often used to make is just flimsy.


Question. Say there are two players playing 10 years of basketball at the same time as each other. Both players make the playoffs all 10 years. Player 1 makes the Finals all 10 years, but only wins 2 of them. Player 2 makes the Finals twice, and wins both of them. Player 1 thus is 2-8 (20%) the Finals and Player 2 is 2-0 (100%).

Which is really worse? People use Finals record to disparage those who lose in the Finals...but, once again, the alternative to losing in the Finals here is far worse. No?


OK. That was an absurdly excessive response. Adios! Happy Holidays. :flag:

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 10:17 AM
Nothing this man does will have him topple MJ. Get over it. End of discussion.

maybe- but IMO he has now not only passed kobe, but he is between jordan and kobe. Hes closer to jordan than he is to kobe.

R. Johnson#3
05-25-2015, 10:18 AM
If the Cavs Sweep and Bron dominates, does he take the #1 spot and dethrone MJ

No and if anything, the Warriors are more likely to sweep the Cavs.

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 10:22 AM
With the context that he overachieved like hell to get 2 of those teams there. People using him getting to the Finals in 2007 and 2015 against him would be quite, quite, quite bizarre.

its stupid to measure a players success with team achievements anyway. Its done constantly, and personally I think its casual fans who do things like that. its a team sport.

In some rare situations, I can see using a teams success as a very last measurement between two otherwise equal players. It seems like casual fans use the teams success as the first and strongest measurement. Not that I dont think winning is important. its the most important thing for basically all players if you ask them- but there are so many variables that go into winning (esp winning a championship). So many of those variables are outside a single players contributions.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 10:22 AM
Fair enough. Still, this isn't a team half as talented as the Warriors are. They'll be underdogs, probably significant ones.

I guess the point here is: isn't getting to the Finals and losing to a better team better than not getting to the Finals? That's the problem with simply stating Finals record without acknowledging anything else. For example, by the time LeBron had been to the Finals (4th year) Jordan had lost in the first round 3 times (swept once) and lost in 5 games in the conference finals that 4th year. But when we just reduce it to Finals records we ignore losses prior to the Finals as if they aren't worse. In terms of team success, it's used in a way to make LeBron look worse than Jordan at that point in their careers despite having far more team success. It matters, and it means something, but stating it on its own to support the claim it's often used to make is just flimsy.


Question. Say there are two players playing 10 years of basketball at the same time as each other. Both players make the playoffs all 10 years. Player 1 makes the Finals all 10 years, but only wins 2 of them. Player 2 makes the Finals twice, and wins both of them. Player 1 thus is 2-8 (20%) the Finals and Player 2 is 2-0 (100%).

Which is really worse? People use Finals record to disparage those who lose in the Finals...but, once again, the alternative to losing in the Finals here is far worse. No?


OK. That was an absurdly excessive response. Adios! Happy Holidays. :flag:

If you want context use it all the way through. LeBron was supposed to get to the Finals every year for the past 6 years. Its not that impressive if you look at the team he had vs the teams he beat. I don't think he had to go through one guaranteed HOFer in his prime on any East teams he beat.

When your the GOAT and you have "enough" support your supposed to get it done once you get there at least half the time.

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 10:23 AM
No and if anything, the Warriors are more likely to sweep the Cavs.

I think cavs fans might get humbled pretty quickly in the first game they play the warriors. Depends how the warriors come out- but the warriors are better on both ends of the court than any team the cavs have faced. The warriors bench will murder the cavs bench too

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 10:25 AM
If you want context use it all the way through. LeBron was supposed to get to the Finals every year for the past 6 years. Its not that impressive if you look at the team he had vs the teams he beat. I don't think he had to go through one guaranteed HOFer in his prime on any East teams he beat.

When your the GOAT and you have "enough" support your supposed to get it done once you get there at least half the time.

LOL- yeah, but hes playing with a team that wasnt capable of even getting to the playoffs without him right now.

ManRam
05-25-2015, 10:34 AM
If you want context use it all the way through. LeBron was supposed to get to the Finals every year for the past 6 years. Its not that impressive if you look at the team he had vs the teams he beat. I don't think he had to go through one guaranteed HOFer in his prime on any East teams he beat.

When your the GOAT and you have "enough" support your supposed to get it done once you get there at least half the time.

You're implying that meeting expectations is simple.

I mean, the Spurs were heavy favorites in the West to make the Finals. They lost in round one.
The Bulls had the 3rd best odds in the NBA, the Cavs handled them.

Last year:

Bulls 2nd best odds, OKC 3rd best odds, Clippers 4th best, Rockets 5th best. Bulls, Clippers and Rockets failed to get out of the first round.

2013:

Lakers were 5/2 favorites to win the Finals, trailing the Heat slightly. OKC (3rd best odds), Bulls (4th), Celtics (5th) all failed to make their conference Finals.

And so on and so on. Every year big time favorites underachieve far more drastically than LeBron's underachieving years. He deserves a **** ton of blame for losing the Mavericks...that was on him. He deserves some flack for last year, even though he sported a 31 PER to Wade's 18.5 and Bosh's 18.2. But, again, losing in the Finals, even when you're expected to get there, is not nearly as bad as what the other 28 teams in the NBA did that respective year. Especially teams with expectations like the ones listed above.

Yes, you have to be aware that his teams have been favored, but that doesn't make it "not impressive". You play the games for a reason. These things aren't won on paper.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-25-2015, 10:48 AM
Fair enough. Still, this isn't a team half as talented as the Warriors are. They'll be underdogs, probably significant ones.

I guess the point here is: isn't getting to the Finals and losing to a better team better than not getting to the Finals? That's the problem with simply stating Finals record without acknowledging anything else. For example, by the time LeBron had been to the Finals (4th year) Jordan had lost in the first round 3 times (swept once) and lost in 5 games in the conference finals that 4th year. But when we just reduce it to Finals records we ignore losses prior to the Finals as if they aren't worse. In terms of team success, it's used in a way to make LeBron look worse than Jordan at that point in their careers despite having far more team success. It matters, and it means something, but stating it on its own to support the claim it's often used to make is just flimsy.


Question. Say there are two players playing 10 years of basketball at the same time as each other. Both players make the playoffs all 10 years. Player 1 makes the Finals all 10 years, but only wins 2 of them. Player 2 makes the Finals twice, and wins both of them. Player 1 thus is 2-8 (20%) the Finals and Player 2 is 2-0 (100%).

Which is really worse? People use Finals record to disparage those who lose in the Finals...but, once again, the alternative to losing in the Finals here is far worse. No?


OK. That was an absurdly excessive response. Adios! Happy Holidays. :flag:

I think people use that his final record to show that he's not pulling off miraculous feats. Like you said, context! You can't use him getting out of the east as some type of propellant to his legacy, and then ignore the fact that he wouldn't even be in the finals if he was in the West all but two times in his career.
I would love to see the Cavs play teams 1 through 7 in the West this year. I know they would beat the pelicans but even they would give them a better run than any of these other east teams have. I'm pretty sure if the Cavs face teams 1 through 7 in the West in the first round, they wouldn't get out. So in short, if they face the Warriors in the first round in the West it would be the same as losing to them in the finals. But by being in the East he gets the credit for getting to the finals.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-25-2015, 10:55 AM
its stupid to measure a players success with team achievements anyway. Its done constantly, and personally I think its casual fans who do things like that. its a team sport.

In some rare situations, I can see using a teams success as a very last measurement between two otherwise equal players. It seems like casual fans use the teams success as the first and strongest measurement. Not that I dont think winning is important. its the most important thing for basically all players if you ask them- but there are so many variables that go into winning (esp winning a championship). So many of those variables are outside a single players contributions.

In baseball and football you are correct. Using team success for those type of players is a bit silly. But when it comes to basketball, it's less about the team and more about the superstar in most instances. There are occasions when a very good team without a superstar can come out on top. But the vast majority of the time you can pick who will be in the finals at the beginning of the year based on the superstar that they have. Team success in basketball is predicated on how good the main guy is. there are slight variances amongst the role players but it's all pretty much evened out.

For the past 16 years, the finals have had either Kobe, Duncan, or LeBron in them. With the exception of one year when it was Dirk and Wade.

If you go back even further you would see the finals have had Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic or Bird for 20 years. That's 7 guys taking up 36 finals appearances. baseball and football is a crap shoot. Basketball can be predetermined by who is on your roster. And i don't mean your 4th and 5th best player.

RLundi
05-25-2015, 10:57 AM
Nah bro.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 11:06 AM
Fair enough. Still, this isn't a team half as talented as the Warriors are. They'll be underdogs, probably significant ones.

I guess the point here is: isn't getting to the Finals and losing to a better team better than not getting to the Finals? That's the problem with simply stating Finals record without acknowledging anything else. For example, by the time LeBron had been to the Finals (4th year) Jordan had lost in the first round 3 times (swept once) and lost in 5 games in the conference finals that 4th year. But when we just reduce it to Finals records we ignore losses prior to the Finals as if they aren't worse. In terms of team success, it's used in a way to make LeBron look worse than Jordan at that point in their careers despite having far more team success. It matters, and it means something, but stating it on its own to support the claim it's often used to make is just flimsy.


Question. Say there are two players playing 10 years of basketball at the same time as each other. Both players make the playoffs all 10 years. Player 1 makes the Finals all 10 years, but only wins 2 of them. Player 2 makes the Finals twice, and wins both of them. Player 1 thus is 2-8 (20%) the Finals and Player 2 is 2-0 (100%).

Which is really worse? People use Finals record to disparage those who lose in the Finals...but, once again, the alternative to losing in the Finals here is far worse. No?


OK. That was an absurdly excessive response. Adios! Happy Holidays. :flag:

Don't forget PSD by a 51-33 vote picked 6-0 in the finals as more impressive than 5-4. 1 finals win > 4 finals losses
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?853671-More-Impressive-6-0-in-Finals-or-5-4-in-Finals

Jets012
05-25-2015, 11:18 AM
I mean people forget that LeBron is actually extremely close to MJ in games played if you count just MJs seasons with Chicago. In terms of fully healthy seasons in their prime, LeBron might actually have one more.

I just think it's too late for LeBron to pass MJ when it's inevitable that he will start to decline in a few years. At the very least, it's too hard for him to pass him in peak dominance.

yungincome
05-25-2015, 11:21 AM
:facepalm:

jerellh528
05-25-2015, 11:27 AM
If gs sweeps the cavs does curry pass Lebron?

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 11:31 AM
I mean people forget that LeBron is actually extremely close to MJ in games played if you count just MJs seasons with Chicago. In terms of fully healthy seasons in their prime, LeBron might actually have one more.

I just think it's too late for LeBron to pass MJ when it's inevitable that he will start to decline in a few years. At the very least, it's too hard for him to pass him in peak dominance.

It's definitely not too late. His greatest opportunity is this season. If he wills the Cavs to beat the far superior Golden State Warriors than that will enhance his legacy to epic proportions. 5 great games in the next 2 weeks will catapult him to scary places in people's all-time lists. A bunch of MVPs and a handful of rings makes him very interesting from a historical standpoint.

ESPECIALLY when you consider that the Cavs window is wide open with a young Kyrie and potentially returning Love. This year is a real test.

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 11:36 AM
In baseball and football you are correct. Using team success for those type of players is a bit silly. But when it comes to basketball, it's less about the team and more about the superstar in most instances. There are occasions when a very good team without a superstar can come out on top. But the vast majority of the time you can pick who will be in the finals at the beginning of the year based on the superstar that they have. Team success in basketball is predicated on how good the main guy is. there are slight variances amongst the role players but it's all pretty much evened out.

For the past 16 years, the finals have had either Kobe, Duncan, or LeBron in them. With the exception of one year when it was Dirk and Wade.

If you go back even further you would see the finals have had Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic or Bird for 20 years. That's 7 guys taking up 36 finals appearances. baseball and football is a crap shoot. Basketball can be predetermined by who is on your roster. And i don't mean your 4th and 5th best player.

I didnt mean to say that a superstar player cant have a heavy impact on his team being successful. I was arguing that just because player A only won 1 ring and player B won 3 rings- doesnt mean player B is hands down better than player A. Just because Lebron is 2-5 in the finals doesnt mean hes a choker. Winning the finals is a team achievement.

And to be fair- when you mention magic, jordan and bird in this thread when were talking about lebron and this cavs team... I think there may have been a disconnect.

Magic played on the showtime lakers, who had kareem, james worthy, michael cooper, byron scott, sam perkins, Mycal Thompson, etc.

Jordan played on a team that still won 57 games without him the year he retired.

Bird played on a dominant celtics team- Infact the 85-86 celtics may have been the most complete team in NBA history.

Winning championships for those 3 was very clearly a team accomplishment. and yes those might have been the best players and go to guys in the finals- but they had rosters for of experience around them that could compete at a very high level.

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
05-25-2015, 11:39 AM
Fair enough. Still, this isn't a team half as talented as the Warriors are. They'll be underdogs, probably significant ones.

I guess the point here is: isn't getting to the Finals and losing to a better team better than not getting to the Finals? That's the problem with simply stating Finals record without acknowledging anything else. For example, by the time LeBron had been to the Finals (4th year) Jordan had lost in the first round 3 times (swept once) and lost in 5 games in the conference finals that 4th year. But when we just reduce it to Finals records we ignore losses prior to the Finals as if they aren't worse. In terms of team success, it's used in a way to make LeBron look worse than Jordan at that point in their careers despite having far more team success. It matters, and it means something, but stating it on its own to support the claim it's often used to make is just flimsy.


Question. Say there are two players playing 10 years of basketball at the same time as each other. Both players make the playoffs all 10 years. Player 1 makes the Finals all 10 years, but only wins 2 of them. Player 2 makes the Finals twice, and wins both of them. Player 1 thus is 2-8 (20%) the Finals and Player 2 is 2-0 (100%).

Which is really worse? People use Finals record to disparage those who lose in the Finals...but, once again, the alternative to losing in the Finals here is far worse. No?


OK. That was an absurdly excessive response. Adios! Happy Holidays. :flag:

He gets the benefit of playing in a very weak Eastern Conference to boost his finals resume to I do think his record should matter. All it shows is that his road to get there was much easier.

bklynny67
05-25-2015, 11:44 AM
James may very well be 2-3 in the finals. Jordan was 6-0 and most likely would have been 8-0.

Some of you people are funny. He isn't close to Jordan.

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 11:51 AM
James may very well be 2-3 in the finals. Jordan was 6-0 and most likely would have been 8-0.

Some of you people are funny. He isn't close to Jordan.

you might be right but thats a stupid argument to prove it. a guys record int he finals doesnt mean anything about the guy- it speaks more about the teams that were there- and the teams he had to play against.

Jordan got swept in the first round by a great 86 celtics team. has lebron ever been swept in the first round?

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 12:23 PM
You're implying that meeting expectations is simple.

I mean, the Spurs were heavy favorites in the West to make the Finals. They lost in round one.
The Bulls had the 3rd best odds in the NBA, the Cavs handled them.

Last year:

Bulls 2nd best odds, OKC 3rd best odds, Clippers 4th best, Rockets 5th best. Bulls, Clippers and Rockets failed to get out of the first round.

2013:

Lakers were 5/2 favorites to win the Finals, trailing the Heat slightly. OKC (3rd best odds), Bulls (4th), Celtics (5th) all failed to make their conference Finals.

And so on and so on. Every year big time favorites underachieve far more drastically than LeBron's underachieving years. He deserves a **** ton of blame for losing the Mavericks...that was on him. He deserves some flack for last year, even though he sported a 31 PER to Wade's 18.5 and Bosh's 18.2. But, again, losing in the Finals, even when you're expected to get there, is not nearly as bad as what the other 28 teams in the NBA did that respective year. Especially teams with expectations like the ones listed above.

Yes, you have to be aware that his teams have been favored, but that doesn't make it "not impressive". You play the games for a reason. These things aren't won on paper.

Are you talking about the Bulls odds before the season started or when the playoffs started? I think you should check again please but that makes zero sense given their team was in shambles by playoff time.

Spurs lost to an all time great PG and the best PF in the game. They didn't have the benefit of playing a team led by Isiah Thomas and Kelly Olynyk. You call for context and continue to ignore it. The West is a different animal, LeBron wouldn't have made the Finals all those times in the West. Which is why its important for him to make his name against that Western team he faces in the Finals because 1) he only needs to beat one of them rather than 4 of them if he played out West and 2) its the only team with bondafide HOFers he has had to play during the playoff run. That holds true for every single Finals run he has had sans 2007.

We want to talk about LeBron like he is the GOAT, he can't lose everytime he faces a West team and talk like Poor LeBron he actually had to face a team with some players close to his level! Seems like the "haters" hold him to higher standards than his fanboys do.

In short, your argument is horrible. You are using preseason odds. Come on guy. Update them series by series and get back to me when it can hold a drop of water.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 12:27 PM
you might be right but thats a stupid argument to prove it. a guys record int he finals doesnt mean anything about the guy- it speaks more about the teams that were there- and the teams he had to play against.

Jordan got swept in the first round by a great 86 celtics team. has lebron ever been swept in the first round?

Has LeBron ever played a great team in the first round? That should answer your question.

The East that MJ went through was littered with HOF talent. The best team LeBron has beaten in the East sans the 2007 team is the freakin' Paul George Roy Hibbert Pacers. In 20 years, nobody will have any idea who those guys were or any recollection of that team. LeBron has benefitted greatly from cakewalks to the Finals year after year. That cannot be debated. That is why he is supposed to win once he gets there - its the only legitimate competition he will get if were holding him to a standard of being a top 1-3 all time great. Beating the guys he beats in the East isn't impressive. Beating all time greats is impressive. He falters more often than not when faced with a team like that. That is the point.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-25-2015, 12:29 PM
James may very well be 2-3 in the finals. Jordan was 6-0 and most likely would have been 8-0.

Some of you people are funny. He isn't close to Jordan.
I've seen a few posts saying if he loses, he'll be 2-3 in the finals, but isn't it actually 2-4?

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 12:30 PM
If you want to absolve LeBron for losing in the Finals to great teams you must also acknowledge the cakewalk he has had to get there for 6 straight years, relative to the East of the 90s that MJ had to deal with and relative to the current West teams.

Ty Fast
05-25-2015, 12:31 PM
I don't think he will ever pass MJ because of what happened in the Finals vs Dallas. Bron would have to do a lot to pass MJ.

Ty Fast
05-25-2015, 12:34 PM
I've seen a few posts saying if he loses, he'll be 2-3 in the finals, but isn't it actually 2-4?

Yes
Lost - 07 vs Spurs, 11 vs Dallas, and 13 vs Spurs
He won 12 and 13

basch152
05-25-2015, 12:36 PM
Yeah, people seem to forget how weak the east is.

LeBron pretty much has a free ride to the finals every single year. His 2-3 record in the finals does not impress me.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 12:38 PM
Yeah, people seem to forget how weak the east is.

LeBron pretty much has a free ride to the finals every single year. His 2-3 record in the finals does not impress me.

If you want to boil it down, this is pretty much what it comes down to.

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 12:41 PM
I don't think he will ever pass MJ because of what happened in the Finals vs Dallas. Bron would have to do a lot to pass MJ.

MJ and the bulls were swept in the first round in 86

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 12:44 PM
Has LeBron ever played a great team in the first round? That should answer your question.

The East that MJ went through was littered with HOF talent. The best team LeBron has beaten in the East sans the 2007 team is the freakin' Paul George Roy Hibbert Pacers. In 20 years, nobody will have any idea who those guys were or any recollection of that team. LeBron has benefitted greatly from cakewalks to the Finals year after year. That cannot be debated. That is why he is supposed to win once he gets there - its the only legitimate competition he will get if were holding him to a standard of being a top 1-3 all time great. Beating the guys he beats in the East isn't impressive. Beating all time greats is impressive. He falters more often than not when faced with a team like that. That is the point.

when lebron was 21- he took a horrible cavs team to the finals. his second best player was booby gibson. Im not sure daniel gibson could start on most d league teams

sammyvine
05-25-2015, 12:50 PM
Fair enough. Still, this isn't a team half as talented as the Warriors are. They'll be underdogs, probably significant ones.

I guess the point here is: isn't getting to the Finals and losing to a better team better than not getting to the Finals? That's the problem with simply stating Finals record without acknowledging anything else. For example, by the time LeBron had been to the Finals (4th year) Jordan had lost in the first round 3 times (swept once) and lost in 5 games in the conference finals that 4th year. But when we just reduce it to Finals records we ignore losses prior to the Finals as if they aren't worse. In terms of team success, it's used in a way to make LeBron look worse than Jordan at that point in their careers despite having far more team success. It matters, and it means something, but stating it on its own to support the claim it's often used to make is just flimsy.


Question. Say there are two players playing 10 years of basketball at the same time as each other. Both players make the playoffs all 10 years. Player 1 makes the Finals all 10 years, but only wins 2 of them. Player 2 makes the Finals twice, and wins both of them. Player 1 thus is 2-8 (20%) the Finals and Player 2 is 2-0 (100%).

Which is really worse? People use Finals record to disparage those who lose in the Finals...but, once again, the alternative to losing in the Finals here is far worse. No?


OK. That was an absurdly excessive response. Adios! Happy Holidays. :flag:

So what is your point?

If Lebron loses against the GSW, its not his fault because his team isn't as talented...
If Lebron wins against GSW- He is better than MJ?

sammyvine
05-25-2015, 12:56 PM
you might be right but thats a stupid argument to prove it. a guys record int he finals doesnt mean anything about the guy- it speaks more about the teams that were there- and the teams he had to play against.

Jordan got swept in the first round by a great 86 celtics team. has lebron ever been swept in the first round?

Lol no legit superstar IN TODAYS GAME is getting swept in the first round. The East is a joke especially the first round games.

You can't compare the 86 Celtics team to the celtics team the cavs beat this year which had not one all star level player. You put Durant, Kobe, Westbrook against some of the recent first round eastern teams that the cavs have played, they would not get swept.

sammyvine
05-25-2015, 01:00 PM
when lebron was 21- he took a horrible cavs team to the finals. his second best player was booby gibson. Im not sure daniel gibson could start on most d league teams

So whats your point here?

Lebron is Goat? He can suppress Jordan? Jordan is overrated or what? You seem to have a counter against every anti-lebron statement!

Vinylman
05-25-2015, 01:00 PM
With the context that he overachieved like hell to get 2 of those teams there. People using him getting to the Finals in 2007 and 2015 against him would be quite, quite, quite bizarre.

cleveland overachieved this year?

exactly who was suppose to come out of the east this year?

truly laughable

Vinylman
05-25-2015, 01:04 PM
LOL- yeah, but hes playing with a team that wasnt capable of even getting to the playoffs without him right now.

what team are you talking about? Who on the current Cleveland roster played meaningful minutes last year...

people are such blind LBJ homers...

This teams success is a function of a solid GM pulling the trigger on deals mid year...

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 01:07 PM
when lebron was 21- he took a horrible cavs team to the finals. his second best player was booby gibson. Im not sure daniel gibson could start on most d league teams

I am well aware of his 2007 playoff run. Impressive as hell.

But, what exactly is your point and why did you feel the need to quote my post with this factoid everyone here knows already?

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 01:08 PM
MJ and the bulls were swept in the first round in 86

Against a team that trumps any team LeBron has ever faced in his entire career.

Vinylman
05-25-2015, 01:18 PM
Against a team that trumps any team LeBron has ever faced in his entire career.

the logic is mind boggling ... Mj was swept by the eventual champs in 1986 ... LBJ was swept by the eventual champs in 2007...

Lebron's accomplishment is greater

PurpleJesus
05-25-2015, 01:21 PM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

He won't dethrone MJ, but I always find the argument of him making the finals too many times as a way to knock him to be pretty stupid.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 01:43 PM
the logic is mind boggling ... Mj was swept by the eventual champs in 1986 ... LBJ was swept by the eventual champs in 2007...

Lebron's accomplishment is greater

I have never onced held LeBron's 2007 run or finals loss against him in any way. If you look at the posts in my thread I have made a point to omit it in numerous posts.

But LeBron wouldn't have won a game in the first round versus the '86 Celtics or the '07 Spurs that year either.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 01:45 PM
He won't dethrone MJ, but I always find the argument of him making the finals too many times as a way to knock him to be pretty stupid.

Its not the point of making the Finals too many times, it's the point of getting smoked when he finally has some top notch competition. That just so happens to be when he faces a West Coast team because the East has been a joke for a guy of his caliber for the past 6 years.

Vinylman
05-25-2015, 01:49 PM
I have never onced held LeBron's 2007 run or finals loss against him in any way. If you look at the posts in my thread I have made a point to omit it in numerous posts.

But LeBron wouldn't have won a game in the first round versus the '86 Celtics or the '07 Spurs that year either.

i was agreeing with you

mngopher35
05-25-2015, 01:53 PM
No, lebron is still very far away from that conversation. It would be pretty incredible if the cavs did win though, I just don't see it happening.

NYSpirit1
05-25-2015, 01:53 PM
LeBron gets an extradoinary amount of handies on this forum.

This is one of the stupidest posts I've ever seen. How does a guy who is 3/6 in the Finals (in the INCREDIBLY easy East his entire career) surpass someone who is 6/6?

And if he loses, the conversation is over forever. Someone who is 2/6 in Finals is never going to be the best player ever.

The competition in the East is painfully bad. While the Warriors are sweeping the Rockets, who are really good, the Cavs are sweeping the Hawks, who suck. They're the worst 60 win team ever. They won 37 games last year and didn't have many team alterations this year.

The Bulls were the only other relevant team in the entire conference that had even a glimmer of hope of getting out of the first round in the West.

The Cavs are going to get spanked by the Warriors. Stop it with the LeBron handies, it's getting obnoxious. Jordan didn't switch teams twice to set himself up with superstars.

LeBron hasn't played one team this playoffs that had a superstar. All-Stars, yes. Superstars? NO. The Warriors played Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol, now James Harden & Dwight Howard.

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 02:03 PM
I'm not sure the Rockets are better than the Hawks to be honest. I think the Grizzlies were the toughest/best team GS has faced yet they aren't even regarded as better than LAC or SAS.

I see why people think the Cavs run was watered down (I don't think it was, I think they just outplayed these teams and made them look bad), but don't act like GS went through an inferno to the finals either.

lol, please
05-25-2015, 02:06 PM
Only on PSD..

Seriously. It's pathetic.

NYSpirit1
05-25-2015, 02:07 PM
I'm not sure the Rockets are better than the Hawks to be honest. I think the Grizzlies were the toughest/best team GS has faced yet they aren't even regarded as better than LAC or SAS.

I see why people think the Cavs run was watered down (I don't think it was, I think they just outplayed these teams and made them look bad), but don't act like GS went through an inferno to the finals either.

Are you kidding? The Rockets aren't better than the Hawks? They killed a good Mavs team, then had a historic comeback against a VERY good Clippers team with Chris Paul, Blake and Deandre Jordan.

The Cavs played the worst team in the playoffs in decades (the Celtics, who have a roster comparable to the Knicsk and Sixers), the Bulls (and Gasol was hurt the whole series) and the Hawks (who are now injured themselves and a joke of a 60 win team).

This is not an impressive playoff run. It's a pathetic one with little competition. You honestly think the Cavs would've beat the Bulls if Gasol didn't miss the most important 2 1/2 games of the series? No.

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 02:16 PM
Are you kidding? The Rockets aren't better than the Hawks? They killed a good Mavs team, then had a historic comeback against a VERY good Clippers team with Chris Paul, Blake and Deandre Jordan.

The Cavs played the worst team in the playoffs in decades (the Celtics, who have a roster comparable to the Knicsk and Sixers), the Bulls (and Gasol was hurt the whole series) and the Hawks (who are now injured themselves and a joke of a 60 win team).

This is not an impressive playoff run. It's a pathetic one with little competition. You honestly think the Cavs would've beat the Bulls if Gasol didn't miss the most important 2 1/2 games of the series? No.

A good Mavs team? That team was about as dysfunctional as a team could get. Clippers choked hard. Josh Smith was Stephen Curry out there beyond the arc. Not trying to take anything away from the Rox, but LAC failed miserably. Why do you think Chris Paul and Doc Rivers are getting so much **** for it?

Rockets have heart and talent, but the running line of thought is that GS/LAC/SAS were the top teams in the West. GS didn't play the other two.

I think the Cavs would've beaten the Bulls either way, and MOST CERTAINLY if Kyrie and Love were healthy. Why do you get to talk about Gasol being injured but ignore the fact that 2/3 of the Cavs best players were hurt? One of which didn't play the entire series. Like... wtf, why are you even allowed to post?

Tony_Starks
05-25-2015, 02:26 PM
Hearing the narratives Lebron fans come up with will almost be as entertaining as the Finals....

NYSpirit1
05-25-2015, 02:29 PM
A good Mavs team? That team was about as dysfunctional as a team could get. Clippers choked hard. Josh Smith was Stephen Curry out there beyond the arc. Not trying to take anything away from the Rox, but LAC failed miserably. Why do you think Chris Paul and Doc Rivers are getting so much **** for it?

Rockets have heart and talent, but the running line of thought is that GS/LAC/SAS were the top teams in the West. GS didn't play the other two.

I think the Cavs would've beaten the Bulls either way, and MOST CERTAINLY if Kyrie and Love were healthy. Why do you get to talk about Gasol being injured but ignore the fact that 2/3 of the Cavs best players were hurt? One of which didn't play the entire series. Like... wtf, why are you even allowed to post?

I didn't mention it because the Cavs aren't a team. They're a LeBron James creation, version 3.0. Basically the best player in the league has been running around corrupting everything for 5 years now. Wade and Bosh got too old for him, so he bailed.

Waited 4 years for the Cavs to luck out more than any team in history and had an embarrassment of riches to acquire Love, drafting Irving years earlier.

The rest of the teams are ACTUAL teams, so no, I don't count the Cavs injuries. They deserve them.

The fact you're trying to argue how good the West is and how bad the East is, is a joke in itself.

Were you a Cavs or Heat fan last year?

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 02:32 PM
I didn't mention it because the Cavs aren't a team. They're a LeBron James creation, version 3.0. Basically the best player in the league has been running around corrupting everything for 5 years now. Wade and Bosh got too old for him, so he bailed.

Waited 4 years for the Cavs to luck out more than any team in history and had an embarrassment of riches to acquire Love, drafting Irving years earlier.

The rest of the teams are ACTUAL teams, so no, I don't count the Cavs injuries. They deserve them.

The fact you're trying to argue how good the West is and how bad the East is, is a joke in itself.

Were you a Cavs or Heat fan last year?

:laugh:

So now we deserved our injuries?

I was a Cavs fan before you were spewing your Bron-hate all over this site, brah.

kdspurman
05-25-2015, 02:38 PM
Not even close

Teeboy1487
05-25-2015, 02:38 PM
Lebron has a shot to pass MJ but not this year even if he wins another ring. Top 3-5 alltime is very possible though.

kdspurman
05-25-2015, 02:40 PM
A good Mavs team? That team was about as dysfunctional as a team could get. Clippers choked hard. Josh Smith was Stephen Curry out there beyond the arc. Not trying to take anything away from the Rox, but LAC failed miserably. Why do you think Chris Paul and Doc Rivers are getting so much **** for it?

Rockets have heart and talent, but the running line of thought is that GS/LAC/SAS were the top teams in the West. GS didn't play the other two.

I think the Cavs would've beaten the Bulls either way, and MOST CERTAINLY if Kyrie and Love were healthy. Why do you get to talk about Gasol being injured but ignore the fact that 2/3 of the Cavs best players were hurt? One of which didn't play the entire series. Like... wtf, why are you even allowed to post?

Yea GS didn't exactly go through a gauntlet either, and avoiding LAC/SA was definitely beneficial for them. That's how it goes sometimes though

NYSpirit1
05-25-2015, 02:49 PM
:laugh:

So now we deserved our injuries?

I was a Cavs fan before you were spewing your Bron-hate all over this site, brah.

Yeah you were? So you didn't root the Heat the past 4 years?

You were a 30 win Cavs fan sans LeBron? Haha okay.

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 02:57 PM
Yeah you were? So you didn't root the Heat the past 4 years?

You were a 30 win Cavs fan sans LeBron? Haha okay.

Rooted for the Cavs when we sucked. Just like I'm a huge Browns fan.

Wanna know what type of condoms I use too?

Jamiecballer
05-25-2015, 03:44 PM
No, but if he can lead the Cavs to the title against GS and wins Finals MVP, I think that vaults him to top 5 discussion.

this. i think he's already right there but i think this is reasonable.

NYSpirit1
05-25-2015, 03:46 PM
Rooted for the Cavs when we sucked. Just like I'm a huge Browns fan.

Wanna know what type of condoms I use too?

Funny. Didn't see one Cavs fan on this forum the past 4 years. Now they're coming out of the woodworks while all the Heatles have been surpassed.

Really ironic... (Not really)

Jamiecballer
05-25-2015, 04:06 PM
If you want to absolve LeBron for losing in the Finals to great teams you must also acknowledge the cakewalk he has had to get there for 6 straight years, relative to the East of the 90s that MJ had to deal with and relative to the current West teams.

why. why must i do that. i don't penalize people for failing to beat opponents who didn't exist.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 04:07 PM
If you want to absolve LeBron for losing in the Finals to great teams you must also acknowledge the cakewalk he has had to get there for 6 straight years, relative to the East of the 90s that MJ had to deal with and relative to the current West teams.

When did MJ beat a better team in the East in the 90s?

jerellh528
05-25-2015, 04:12 PM
why. why must i do that. i don't penalize people for failing to beat opponents who didn't exist.

Because context is important. A lot of James accolades having to do with postseason play are there because the cakewalk to the finals every year in that conference = much more games n mins played. His losing record in the finals should easily show that it's easy to get to the finals in the east, but probably not so in the west.

Jamiecballer
05-25-2015, 04:18 PM
Because context is important. A lot of James accolades having to do with postseason play are there because the cakewalk to the finals every year in that conference = much more games n mins played. His losing record in the finals should easily show that it's easy to get to the finals in the east, but probably not so in the west.

i understand the POV but it's based on a giant assumption that he wouldn't make the finals even if the competition was better. like i said, i don't penalize people for failing to beat opponents who didn't show up. that's not context at all.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 05:45 PM
When did MJ beat a better team in the East in the 90s?

I don't recall saying he did. I am saying the teams LeBron are playing during these recent Finals runs are led by nobodies in comparison to the multiple HOF teams MJ had to beat on his way to the Finals.

D-Leethal
05-25-2015, 05:48 PM
i understand the POV but it's based on a giant assumption that he wouldn't make the finals even if the competition was better. like i said, i don't penalize people for failing to beat opponents who didn't show up. that's not context at all.

Its not a giant assumption when you account for his Finals record against that type of better competition and the struggles and vulnerability he showed against teams like Indiana.

THE MTL
05-25-2015, 05:54 PM
If lebron beats GS and averages something crazy with a hurt Kyrie and no Love then I would cement him as 2nd best all time though

KB24PG16
05-25-2015, 05:59 PM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

he'd be 2/6

loss spurs
loss dallas
beat okc
beat spurs
loss spurs
loss/beat gsw

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:13 PM
When did MJ beat a better team in the East in the 90s?

I don't recall saying he did. I am saying the teams LeBron are playing during these recent Finals runs are led by nobodies in comparison to the multiple HOF teams MJ had to beat on his way to the Finals.

But why is it such a detriment to LeBron's career if his competitive edge was comparable to MJ's?

IBleedPurple
05-25-2015, 06:30 PM
When did MJ beat a better team in the East in the 90s?

I don't recall saying he did. I am saying the teams LeBron are playing during these recent Finals runs are led by nobodies in comparison to the multiple HOF teams MJ had to beat on his way to the Finals.

But why is it such a detriment to LeBron's career if his competitive edge was comparable to MJ's?Lmao. Did Lebron consistently beat a team as quality as a Ewing led Knicks team to advance....Not even close.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:34 PM
When did MJ beat a better team in the East in the 90s?

I don't recall saying he did. I am saying the teams LeBron are playing during these recent Finals runs are led by nobodies in comparison to the multiple HOF teams MJ had to beat on his way to the Finals.

But why is it such a detriment to LeBron's career if his competitive edge was comparable to MJ's?Lmao. Did Lebron consistently beat a team as quality as a Ewing led Knicks team to advance....Not even close.

Lmao back at you friend.

Ewing Oakley + scrubs vs Hibbert-West-PG-Lance-Hill

How is that not even close?

IKnowHoops
05-25-2015, 06:47 PM
IKNOWHOOPS,

I know you're an avid LeBron fan. But your posts in regard to GS reflect ignorance. You obviously haven't watched them play much at all. They are the real deal. They are a better team than the Cavs. Remember when I said the Hawks don't worry me at all? GS does, very much so. IMO, a healthy Love and Irving makes us about even with them, and that's with me being pro-Cavs. I'd understand if others would still put GS over us in that scenario. That's how good they are.

Not trying to be confrontational, but do understand you're making yourself look very ignorant here with the whole sweep thing.

I DO think the Cavs are/were being vastly underrated and won't get swept. I think it'll be a 7 game series (if Irving is FULLY HEALTHY). Of course I'm going for Cleveland here. :)

I never said they would sweep.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:51 PM
If lebron beats GS and averages something crazy with a hurt Kyrie and no Love then I would cement him as 2nd best all time though

Even tho he has less MVPs, Rings, and significantly less seasons than KAJ?

More-Than-Most
05-25-2015, 07:00 PM
If he wins the title this year with how he is carrying them he is top 3 but he would need 1 or 2 more after this one to make an argument over MJ..... but they have no shot against GSW... He is already above Kobe sorry.

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 07:33 PM
Funny. Didn't see one Cavs fan on this forum the past 4 years. Now they're coming out of the woodworks while all the Heatles have been surpassed.

Really ironic... (Not really)

I'm literally the only Cavs fan that posts in the main forum regularly. The other guy is a Bron fan.

I guess everyone that doesn't hate on LBJ 24/7 is a Cavs fan to you. Lol you're a moron.

Jamiecballer
05-25-2015, 08:04 PM
Its not a giant assumption when you account for his Finals record against that type of better competition and the struggles and vulnerability he showed against teams like Indiana.
It's not sure you understand what an assumption is.

sammyvine
05-25-2015, 08:14 PM
If he wins the title this year with how he is carrying them he is top 3 but he would need 1 or 2 more after this one to make an argument over MJ..... but they have no shot against GSW... He is already above Kobe sorry.

If he wins today how does that make him better than Tim Duncan, Kareem or Magic? Those players all have more rings and some magical performances.

Being already above Kobe? Is there an official list that says that? Rankings are all subjective. Some people will still take Kobe over Lebron. Me personally I think Lebron is better but you need to get it through your head that there isn't a consensus on this topic!

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-25-2015, 08:16 PM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

Bingo. Lmao at op

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-25-2015, 08:17 PM
He would clearly pass guys like Shaq and Bird but still trail Kobe and Duncan and need significantly more to reach the MJ-Magic-KAJ level.

Great post

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-25-2015, 08:20 PM
If he wins the title this year with how he is carrying them he is top 3 but he would need 1 or 2 more after this one to make an argument over MJ..... but they have no shot against GSW... He is already above Kobe sorry.

:puke: post

slashsnake
05-25-2015, 08:20 PM
If Somehow he swept GS, or even won a series with them, that would be amazing. I'd put it over Olajuwon's first ring with arguably the greatest single player carrying a bad team to the finals. I don't think that has a chance of happening though. No Varejao, Love, barely an Irving... His best players are Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, and Mozgov. Not bad role players but this roster is basically one that would be playing for the top spot in the draft lottery without Lebron.

flea
05-25-2015, 08:26 PM
Lmao back at you friend.

Ewing Oakley + scrubs vs Hibbert-West-PG-Lance-Hill

How is that not even close?

Is this a joke? How are you a Knicks fan? Ewing's Knicks have a very strong argument as 2nd best team of the 90s (them or the Jazz). Those Pacers teams are, I don't know, maybe the 4th or 5th best team for one season and maybe the 8th or 9th best in another? Who even cares?

IKnowHoops
05-25-2015, 09:54 PM
I stand by what I say. Cleveland will beat GS in the finals.

kdspurman
05-25-2015, 10:01 PM
I stand by what I say. Cleveland will beat GS in the finals.

Could happen. But wouldn't even get him close to passing MJ. Which goes for just about anyone at this point

Cal827
05-25-2015, 10:07 PM
I'm literally the only Cavs fan that posts in the main forum regularly. The other guy is a Bron fan.

I guess everyone that doesn't hate on LBJ 24/7 is a Cavs fan to you. Lol you're a moron.

Confucius says... . :D

Archie used to post on here quite often, don't know where he went though. Probably waiting to rip into pretty much everyone (myself included), who thought at the beginning of the year, that Cleveland would probably be knocked out by the second round. :laugh2:

Vee-Rex
05-25-2015, 10:26 PM
Confucius says... . :D

Archie used to post on here quite often, don't know where he went though. Probably waiting to rip into pretty much everyone (myself included), who thought at the beginning of the year, that Cleveland would probably be knocked out by the second round. :laugh2:

Ha. Arch still keepin it hot in the Cavs forums. I'm much too immature and end up in various catfights on these main forums. :-(

NYSpirit1
05-25-2015, 10:36 PM
Again, this ***** gets lucky. He's had such an inordinate amount of luck in his career.

If Curry misses any action, this guy literally just cakewalks everywhere. Between his super teams, the easy East, injuries to players on other teams -- LeBron always gets the easy way out.

Such a shame. Put together Karl Malone, Barkley, Dwight, CP3, Melo, Stockton, Ewing, T-Mac, none of these guys combined have had the luck LeBron has.

Bruno
05-25-2015, 10:45 PM
He won't dethrone MJ, but I always find the argument of him making the finals too many times as a way to knock him to be pretty stupid.

yeah its an idiotic over simplification. but the media and average sports fans paint the narrative. a guy who is 2/5 at the big show will never gain mass acceptance as being better than Michael Jordan. his story line is immaculate and has peak stats with respectable longevity. no amount of brilliant advanced lines or longevity will make up for the fact that LBJ will never have a better career story arch than Michael Jordan.

pain7
05-25-2015, 11:12 PM
Why would 1 series knockout the 300+ games MJ has outplayed LeBron James.

lakerboy
05-25-2015, 11:25 PM
he'll be 2/5 in the finals after they get the beat down.

lakerboy
05-25-2015, 11:26 PM
oh wait, 2/6.

Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Mavs
Win vs Thunder
Win vs Spurs
Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Warriors

OUCH.

IKnowHoops
05-25-2015, 11:42 PM
IKNOWHOOPS,

I know you're an avid LeBron fan. But your posts in regard to GS reflect ignorance. You obviously haven't watched them play much at all. They are the real deal. They are a better team than the Cavs. Remember when I said the Hawks don't worry me at all? GS does, very much so. IMO, a healthy Love and Irving makes us about even with them, and that's with me being pro-Cavs. I'd understand if others would still put GS over us in that scenario. That's how good they are.

Not trying to be confrontational, but do understand you're making yourself look very ignorant here with the whole sweep thing.

I DO think the Cavs are/were being vastly underrated and won't get swept. I think it'll be a 7 game series (if Irving is FULLY HEALTHY). Of course I'm going for Cleveland here. :)

When the Cavs beat GS, I expect an apology for that. I don't think a sweep will happen. Im just posing a question about that. I do however have no doubt that CLE will win the ship this year and they will handle GS just fine. 5-6 games. Leaning toward 5

Vee-Rex
05-26-2015, 12:08 AM
When the Cavs beat GS, I expect an apology for that. I don't think a sweep will happen. Im just posing a question about that. I do however have no doubt that CLE will win the ship this year and they will handle GS just fine. 5-6 games. Leaning toward 5

I'd happily apologize. GS is the truth though. Hope you're right!

Bostonjorge
05-26-2015, 12:10 AM
Looks like harden is enough to beat this unstoppable warriors team.

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 12:12 AM
oh wait, 2/6.

Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Mavs
Win vs Thunder
Win vs Spurs
Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Warriors

OUCH.

Do you realize how awful the logic is, that it would be considered BETTER if he lost to the Hawks now, then to beat the Hawks, based on this post?

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 12:13 AM
Again, this ***** gets lucky. He's had such an inordinate amount of luck in his career.

If Curry misses any action, this guy literally just cakewalks everywhere. Between his super teams, the easy East, injuries to players on other teams -- LeBron always gets the easy way out.

Such a shame. Put together Karl Malone, Barkley, Dwight, CP3, Melo, Stockton, Ewing, T-Mac, none of these guys combined have had the luck LeBron has.

It's so easy that he literally just beat the Hawks with one of the worst supporting casts a guy can have (Love and Irving both out).


cake walk

Bostonjorge
05-26-2015, 12:15 AM
Do you realize how awful the logic is, that it would be considered BETTER if he lost to the Hawks now, then to beat the Hawks, based on this post?

It just shows what happens when James played a real team with superstars. How is it that the finals is the easiest series for the Spurs.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 12:21 AM
oh wait, 2/6.

Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Mavs
Win vs Thunder
Win vs Spurs
Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Warriors

OUCH.

Do you realize how awful the logic is, that it would be considered BETTER if he lost to the Hawks now, then to beat the Hawks, based on this post?

OR he could lose neither and win a chip right?

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 12:22 AM
I don't recall saying he did. I am saying the teams LeBron are playing during these recent Finals runs are led by nobodies in comparison to the multiple HOF teams MJ had to beat on his way to the Finals.

Has he not beat Hall of Fame players in the last five years?

Garnett, Pierce, Gasol, Duncan, Parker, Durant, Melo

Obviously, not everyone is a Hall of Famer, and not everyone was in the middle of their peaks (but that isn't what you argued any way). The idea that this is some cake walk is a joke.

Also, these Bulls, Pacers, and Celtics teams weren't half bad, and he beat a Duncan led Spurs team that repeated as Western Conference Champs (and don't give me this, he was lucky to have Allen make that shot, sure...but he is also the guy that got the Heat back into that game, and killed it in Game 7 to lock it up).

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 12:24 AM
OR he could lose neither and win a chip right?

Sure, but getting to the Finals, and then losing, isn't somehow worse than simply not making it to the Finals except for the years that you win it all.


It's a ridiculous argument that has zero logic.

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 12:26 AM
It just shows what happens when James played a real team with superstars. How is it that the finals is the easiest series for the Spurs.

The Finals last year was the Spurs easiest series?


I guess Portland was super hard to beat that year


Also, James beat them the year before lol

bucketss
05-26-2015, 12:30 AM
Do you realize how awful the logic is, that it would be considered BETTER if he lost to the Hawks now, then to beat the Hawks, based on this post?

jerry west was 1-9 in the finals, i have never seen someone use this against him. but unfortunately lebron has special type of haters, they will dig very deep.

jerellh528
05-26-2015, 12:41 AM
jerry west was 1-9 in the finals, i have never seen someone use this against him. but unfortunately lebron has special type of haters, they will dig very deep.

I've never seen one person ever claim jerry west to be top 3 all time.

Captain Moroni
05-26-2015, 12:45 AM
When did MJ become the greatest ever? Bill Russell is the best ever.

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 12:47 AM
I've never seen one person ever claim jerry west to be top 3 all time.

Are people claiming LeBron to be top 3 yet?

akagiredsuns
05-26-2015, 12:48 AM
if he loses hell be 2/5 in the finals.

2/6 did u forget 07 finals?

akagiredsuns
05-26-2015, 12:48 AM
When did MJ become the greatest ever? Bill Russell is the best ever.

:facepalm:

Bostonjorge
05-26-2015, 12:54 AM
The Finals last year was the Spurs easiest series?


I guess Portland was super hard to beat that year


Also, James beat them the year before lol

Na Wade out scoring every single spurs player, every single one of them and Ray Allen beat the Spurs.

Also Blake beat that same Spurs team no problem. Spurs where wishing they were playing a James led team.

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 01:03 AM
Na Wade out scoring every single spurs player, every single one of them and Ray Allen beat the Spurs.

Also Blake beat that same Spurs team no problem. Spurs where wishing they were playing a James led team.

Ray Allen did NOT beat the Spurs

Ray Allen hit a key shot, much like how Derick Fisher, Steve Kerr, and Robert Horry hit key three's for guys like Jordan and Kobe.

LeBron scored 17 points in that 4th quarter of Game 6 and destroyed the Spurs in Game 7....Ray Allen scored 9 points and was 3/8 from the field that night.

And no, Blake didn't beat the same Spurs team....the same Spurs team that beat prime Durant and Westbrook

This blinded view of history is laughable....just to hate on LeBron.



It's like you are trying to be as wrong as possible with that post.

bucketss
05-26-2015, 01:05 AM
Na Wade out scoring every single spurs player, every single one of them and Ray Allen beat the Spurs.

Also Blake beat that same Spurs team no problem. Spurs where wishing they were playing a James led team.

can you stop trolling?

LA_Raiders
05-26-2015, 01:08 AM
Lol

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 01:08 AM
oh wait, 2/6.

Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Mavs
Win vs Thunder
Win vs Spurs
Loss vs Spurs
Loss vs Warriors

OUCH.

its so horrible losing to the best team of the decade twice in the finals and it going the distance each time I believe.. Jordan lost in the playoffs but not the finals but somehow that is better? James is easily the most hated person in the history of sports.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2015, 01:10 AM
Ray Allen did NOT beat the Spurs

Ray Allen hit a key shot, much like how Derick Fisher, Steve Kerr, and Robert Horry hit key three's for guys like Jordan and Kobe.

LeBron scored 17 points in that 4th quarter of Game 6 and destroyed the Spurs in Game 7....Ray Allen scored 9 points and was 3/8 from the field that night.

And no, Blake didn't beat the same Spurs team....the same Spurs team that beat prime Durant and Westbrook

This blinded view of history is laughable....just to hate on LeBron.



It's like you are trying to be as wrong as possible with that post.

Look at blakes numbers then if your going to throw James numbers at me. Also I don't ever remember seeing Kerr or horry hitting a close out game or elimInation game winner. I remember seeing Kobe and Jordan closeing those games out themselves.

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 01:34 AM
Is this real life?

This LeBron blind hate?

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 01:56 AM
Look at blakes numbers then if your going to throw James numbers at me. Also I don't ever remember seeing Kerr or horry hitting a close out game or elimInation game winner. I remember seeing Kobe and Jordan closeing those games out themselves.


And not sure what you mean about Kerr or Horry not hitting elimination and close out game winners. You are kidding there right. I am guessing this is a bit of irony I am not seeing. Are you really saying Jordan would never let guys like Kerr and Paxson hit series clinching 3's? Horry never hit one in the 02 western conference finals? Pau never hit the series ender vs. the Thunder. Metta never got a kickout from Kobe for the game sealer?



Forget that Lebron has the most game tying or go ahead scores in the final 24 seconds in the playoffs since he came into the league. Forget that he's the most successful shooter in the final 5 seconds of a playoff game since Jordan retired. Forget that he hit the 3 to make it a one posession game AND either scored or assisted on every single shot in OT for the Heat to win that game.

Want to see Lebron in the Clutch in that series.

Lebron in closeout finals games 6 and 7. 69 points.
Combined Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Birdman, Bosh, and Wade in games 6 and 7 68 points.

jerellh528
05-26-2015, 01:58 AM
The Finals last year was the Spurs easiest series?


I guess Portland was super hard to beat that year


Also, James beat them the year before lol


What were the Bulls?

Were the Bulls not a team that would have challenged for the WCF in the West?

The Hawks are probably a playoff team in the West.


I understand the West is better in terms of depth and overall better teams. But this idea that the East is some cake walk and the West is where all of the competition is is just false.

Toronto probably isn't a top 6 seed in the West, nor is Washington. And there are more competitive teams in the West in terms of teams that can challenge for a playoff spot and would be a top 4-5 seed in the East. But the top teams? The Bulls would have been a good matchup for really any team in the West, same for the Hawks and Cavs. The top three from the East I think are very competitive and good teams, and the Cavs, while missing some of their top talent, has managed to beat two very good teams on this route (well one game short of doing so).



I'm not LeBron apologist. But some of the arguments that I see in the NBA section have me scratching my head (namely, how you recognize individual greatness based on team play).

Goes both ways then, amigo.

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 01:59 AM
Goes both ways then, amigo.

When it's being used to combat the same argument, I need to use their logic, right?

jerellh528
05-26-2015, 02:05 AM
When it's being used to combat the same argument, I need to use their logic, right?

I guess that makes sense. Whatever works.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 03:36 AM
No way, Jordan got 6 and Lebron needs at least 5 to be in the same convo...right now Lebron can't even be mentioned in that regard to even Kobe Bryant! so dethroning MJ is out of the question.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 03:44 AM
And not sure what you mean about Kerr or Horry not hitting elimination and close out game winners. You are kidding there right. I am guessing this is a bit of irony I am not seeing. Are you really saying Jordan would never let guys like Kerr and Paxson hit series clinching 3's? Horry never hit one in the 02 western conference finals? Pau never hit the series ender vs. the Thunder. Metta never got a kickout from Kobe for the game sealer?



Forget that Lebron has the most game tying or go ahead scores in the final 24 seconds in the playoffs since he came into the league. Forget that he's the most successful shooter in the final 5 seconds of a playoff game since Jordan retired. Forget that he hit the 3 to make it a one posession game AND either scored or assisted on every single shot in OT for the Heat to win that game.

Want to see Lebron in the Clutch in that series.

Lebron in closeout finals games 6 and 7. 69 points.
Combined Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Birdman, Bosh, and Wade in games 6 and 7 68 points.

Roasted... That clutch doesnt matter doh be ray allen his a 3 to tie the game up or because Lebron doesnt shoot when 9 guys are on him.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 03:45 AM
No way, Jordan got 6 and Lebron needs at least 5 to be in the same convo...right now Lebron can't even be mentioned in that regard to even Kobe Bryant! so dethroning MJ is out of the question.

lol this logic is amazing.

ThaDubs
05-26-2015, 05:25 AM
No way, Jordan got 6 and Lebron needs at least 5 to be in the same convo...right now Lebron can't even be mentioned in that regard to even Kobe Bryant! so dethroning MJ is out of the question.

I just don't understand

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 05:39 AM
Roasted... That clutch doesnt matter doh be ray allen his a 3 to tie the game up or because Lebron doesnt shoot when 9 guys are on him.

Just saying Lebron is pretty clutch. Tied Jordan on playoff buzzer beaters in game 4 against the bulls, more made tying or go ahead shots in the playoffs with 5 seconds or less than Jordan or Kobe despite attempting fewer shots, and more go ahead or tying shots in the final 24 seconds in the playoffs than Kobe (fewer than Jordan) on a lot fewer attempts than either.

But yeah, Lebron is a LONG ways from unseating Jordan as the GOAT and I don't think it will happen for him ever. But if you want to argue clutch, and we haven't even gotten into things like game changing assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in the clutch, game 7's (Lebron has the highest PPG in game 7's ever) or elimination games (just for comparison and I hate to use Kobe as he is one of the greatest, not beating up on him, but Lebron averages 10 more points, 4 more boards and 3 more assists in elimination games)... he's pretty good when it matters.

KnicksorBust
05-26-2015, 05:49 AM
Lmao back at you friend.

Ewing Oakley + scrubs vs Hibbert-West-PG-Lance-Hill

How is that not even close?

Is this a joke? How are you a Knicks fan? Ewing's Knicks have a very strong argument as 2nd best team of the 90s (them or the Jazz). Those Pacers teams are, I don't know, maybe the 4th or 5th best team for one season and maybe the 8th or 9th best in another? Who even cares?

Have you ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon and the Rockets? The 90s Knicks have become overrated. Ewing's career was a disappointment playing on over achieving teams with little help. Jordan had Pippen and then even added players like Kukoc and Rodman. His teams were far superior to the competition in the East as well.

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 06:11 AM
Have you ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon and the Rockets? The 90s Knicks have become overrated. Ewing's career was a disappointment playing on over achieving teams with little help. Jordan had Pippen and then even added players like Kukoc and Rodman. His teams were far superior to the competition in the East as well.

Yeah, I really have to put the Rockets ahead.

Lakers I probably would too. Won more games than the Knicks in the 90's went to two finals and won 1.

Spurs for the same reason, won more games and a championship.

Utah easily, more 50 win seasons, more wins overall in that decade, more conference finals appearances... not really close.

Suns, Portland, Phoenix, and Seattle all won more games than the Knicks in the 90's, but I like the Knicks for consistency and better in the post-season.


I was a fan of them then, I really liked Starks and wanted them to win, but I have to agree with you that if they were playing in Utah, I don't think they would have gotten the press that they did. The Bucks sure didn't the decade before in Milwaukee.

Hard to compare today as the NBA has more parity and had a strike season, but the Knicks were 8th in win% in the 90's, and the Suns were 8th in win% over the last 10 years.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 06:37 AM
Have you ever heard of Hakeem Olajuwon and the Rockets? The 90s Knicks have become overrated. Ewing's career was a disappointment playing on over achieving teams with little help. Jordan had Pippen and then even added players like Kukoc and Rodman. His teams were far superior to the competition in the East as well.

Bulls were superior to most West teams in the 90s with how stacked with talent they were... Rodman/Pippen/Kukoc/Geiger/Kerr and the list could go on... Some of the best players and role players and defensive players ever but it was all Jordan :rolleyes:.. The East was garbage then too.... Hell Jordan 3 years removed from a Championship team couldnt get Washington into the playoffs in a bad East.... Jordan was 0-3 in his first 3 playoff appearances and got rocked in the first round if I recall correctly and only managed to finally get out of said first round when Pippen Joined the team. Also there is this that most people seem to forget....

When a great player leaves his team, typically the team falls apart after he leaves. This can be seen in a number of instances: when Lebron left the Cavs in 2010, the Cavs record dropped by over 40 wins the following season. When Shaq left the Lakers, they had difficulty making it to the postseason the first few years following his departure. And even as recently as this past season, the Celtics have become a shell of themselves after Pierce and Garnett left.

So when the “greatest player of all time” left the Chicago Bulls after his first retirement, you would imagine they lost by like, at least 20 more games the following season, right?

In actuality, led by the defensive grit of Scottie Pippen, the Bulls dropped only two more games than in the previous season. Yeap, you read that right, two games. With Michael Jordan in the 92-93 season, the Bulls had 57 wins, and in the 93-94 season without Jordan, they had a “paltry” 55 wins. Don’t you think that after the “Greatest Player of All Time” retires, his team would completely sink without him? Think again.



Nobody has had more talent around them than MJ

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 06:53 AM
lol this logic is amazing.

Sarcasm? I am sure you know what I am talking about, but doesn't it feel amazing to make a mockery of a statement I "briefly" jotted down because I actually gave the competency level of the inhabitants of this forum the benefit of the doubt.

BUT just in case you don't know where I am going with this...LBJ cannot dethrone MJ simply because he hasn't won enough or experienced the same level of success MJ did...if Kobe can't be compared to MJ (oh and btw, Kobe has 5 titles to his name) then why are we comparing Lebron? Look...I get the whole "titles don't count for everything" argument, but in this case, we cannot leave that out of the equation...Jordan earned his respect with that very fact, his success gave birth to this new era of basketball we see now!
Comparing Lebron NOW is unfair to Jordan's legacy, it's hard to even compare Lebron to Kobe at this very moment as Kobe has achieved much more than Lebron. I am not saying Lebron will never be better than Jordan or Kobe because being a better player is totally anyones preference and opinion! but as far as accolades go, Lebron's career doesn't even compare to Michael J Jordan's accomplishments.

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 07:03 AM
Nobody has had more talent around them than MJ

Well said...

Obviously some players had more talent around them at their best. Magic and Bird had some amazing talent around them for example. Magic had multiple years where the Lakers could field a starting lineup that was all hall of fame players, and he never went to the all-star game on his own. When you can say we've got 5 hall of famers, plus guys like Byron Scott, AC Green, Cooper, and Rambis... well you are loaded.

Same could be said for Bird.


But that Bulls team was really talented, and coached by arguably the best coach ever as well. They were run very very well. And it was such a good mix of timing there. The team came along at it's best as Jordan was transitioning from superstar young player to superstar veteran leader. Not too early, not too late.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 07:08 AM
I just don't understand

SMH, look, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out...all it takes is some respect, honesty and a little common sense. What I am saying is that Jordan has earned a level of respect that cannot even be questioned, yet we question Lebron James's every single move! and now suddenly he can be compared to MJ?
I am sorry but Lebron James cannot be compared to Jordan at this moment in his career, he certainly has earned the right to be included into the discussion of "one of" the greatest players of all time, but THE greatest? no way...thats just straight disrespecting Mike and even Kobe Bryant!
Just as I mentioned above, you cannot go around disrespecting someone who has earned 6 titles and 6 finals MVP's and hasn't even loss once in a Finals, MJ deserves a bit more respect than that, his greatness cannot even be questioned. Lebron is a great player but he only has 2 rings and along with some amazing stats and jaw dropping highlights, his achievements fail into comparison with even Kobe Bryant's career...so how in the world can we even compare LBJ to MJ? please tell me how this is possible!?
Can anyone tell me? I would love to be proven wrong!!!!!!!

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 07:10 AM
Sarcasm? I am sure you know what I am talking about, but doesn't it feel amazing to make a mockery of a statement I "briefly" jotted down because I actually gave the competency level of the inhabitants of this forum the benefit of the doubt.

BUT just in case you don't know where I am going with this...LBJ cannot dethrone MJ simply because he hasn't won enough or experienced the same level of success MJ did...if Kobe can't be compared to MJ (oh and btw, Kobe has 5 titles to his name) then why are we comparing Lebron? Look...I get the whole "titles don't count for everything" argument, but in this case, we cannot leave that out of the equation...Jordan earned his respect with that very fact, his success gave birth to this new era of basketball we see now!
Comparing Lebron NOW is unfair to Jordan's legacy, it's hard to even compare Lebron to Kobe at this very moment as Kobe has achieved much more than Lebron. I am not saying Lebron will never be better than Jordan or Kobe because being a better player is totally anyones preference and opinion! but as far as accolades go, Lebron's career doesn't even compare to Michael J Jordan's accomplishments.

Nobody should be comparing bron to kobe because its disrespect to lebron,,,, Both are in the top 10 ever... but Lebron is better... Sorry he just is... Titles mean something but when evaluating an individual player it shouldn't mean ****... James has done things Jordan has never even sniffed doing and right now Jordan has the edge because of said Championships but he had the benefit of more talent around him than James... That is the comparison between Kobe and Jordan... Both had some of the very best teams ever from top to bottom so Id hope they would have more championships... You want facts well I gave you facts above... Jordan couldnt get past the first round his first 3 years getting to the playoffs while having more talent than James who carried the horrid cavs to a finals... Jordan couldn't get past said first round until he got one of the best players ever in Pippen... Want some more facts? Jordan had the Luxury of expansion team era as well where the league was slightly watered down and 3 years after his bulls won a championship he couldnt take washington to the playoffs when he came back to the NBA... On top of all that when he retired the first time that insanely talented team he was on went from winning 57 games with him to winning 55 games without him... Lets look at the Win/Loss differential of teams when James is on them and then isn't... It will blow your mind. When he left Cleveland the cavs had 40 less wins... 40... Do you know how insane that is? The heat when he was there 2 years ago... 54 wins... This year with a revamped team with huge free agent signings... 17 less wins with 37 and missed the playoffs... I could go on if you want facts.... Is MJ the best every... Without Question but James has a shot and the only thing keeping Jordan on that throne is the fact he has 6 championships which is one of the dumbest arguments ever because a player like Lebron is stuck on a team like the cavs for years when he comes to the league and can only be as great as the organization lets them or the league lets them.. Fact... Jordan/Kobe had 5 times the all around talent than James did even when he had wade/bosh.... Fisher/Horry/Shaq/Gasol/Lamar and the list could go on... http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html

Jordans teams.. http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/teammates.htm


James Championship Roster- http://www.nba.com/heat/roster/2012-13-heat-roster


It isnt even close.

Now lets look at Lebrons roster


People love to use the 6 championships as the end all be all but then when it comes to these kinds of facts you get the crap excuses or the hater comment or the :laugh:

Facts are facts.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 07:18 AM
Nobody should be comparing bron to kobe because its disrespect to lebron,,,, Both are in the top 10 ever... but Lebron is better... Sorry he just is... Titles mean something but when evaluating an individual player it shouldn't mean ****... James has done things Jordan has never even sniffed doing and right now Jordan has the edge because of said Championships but he had the benefit of more talent around him than James... That is the comparison between Kobe and Jordan... Both had some of the very best teams ever from top to bottom so Id hope they would have more championships... You want facts well I gave you facts above... Jordan couldnt get past the first round his first 3 years getting to the playoffs while having more talent than James who carried the horrid cavs to a finals... Jordan couldn't get past said first round until he got one of the best players ever in Pippen... Want some more facts? Jordan had the Luxury of expansion team era as well where the league was slightly watered down and 3 years after his bulls won a championship he couldnt take washington to the playoffs when he came back to the NBA... On top of all that when he retired the first time that insanely talented team he was on went from winning 57 games with him to winning 55 games without him... Lets look at the Win/Loss differential of teams when James is on them and then isn't... It will blow your mind. When he left Cleveland the cavs had 40 less wins... 40... Do you know how insane that is? The heat when he was there 2 years ago... 54 wins... This year with a revamped team with huge free agent signings... 17 less wins with 37 and missed the playoffs... I could go on if you want facts.... Is MJ the best every... Without Question but James has a shot and the only thing keeping Jordan on that throne is the fact he has 6 championships which is one of the dumbest arguments ever because a player like Lebron is stuck on a team like the cavs for years when he comes to the league and can only be as great as the organization lets them or the league lets them.. Fact... Jordan/Kobe had 5 times the all around talent than James did even when he had wade/bosh.... Fisher/Horry/Shaq/Gasol/Lamar and the list could go on... http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html

Jordans teams.. http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/teammates.htm


James Championship Roster- http://www.nba.com/heat/roster/2012-13-heat-roster


It isnt even close.

Now lets look at Lebrons roster

You can throw as much stats and numbers and whatever you want into the argument, but it doesn't hide the fact that Jordan's impact and success defines him, while Lebron's skill, athleticism and toughness defines HIM! those are totally different attributes to put into question. I agree with you, evaluating an individual player should never include their accolades, BUT we are talking about greatness! a totally different platform dude, something that usually involves a legacy and Lebron's just don't match up to Jordan's!

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 07:21 AM
"People love to use the 6 championships as the end all be all but then when it comes to these kinds of facts you get the crap excuses or the hater comment or the

Facts are facts."


I use the 6 rings FACT because this is what they compete for...this is why they even play the game of basketball, to win at the very highest level...if you cannot see this then I am sorry , but I think YOU are the hater.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 07:29 AM
Gosh

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 07:29 AM
Sarcasm? I am sure you know what I am talking about, but doesn't it feel amazing to make a mockery of a statement I "briefly" jotted down because I actually gave the competency level of the inhabitants of this forum the benefit of the doubt.

BUT just in case you don't know where I am going with this...LBJ cannot dethrone MJ simply because he hasn't won enough or experienced the same level of success MJ did...if Kobe can't be compared to MJ (oh and btw, Kobe has 5 titles to his name) then why are we comparing Lebron? Look...I get the whole "titles don't count for everything" argument, but in this case, we cannot leave that out of the equation...Jordan earned his respect with that very fact, his success gave birth to this new era of basketball we see now!
Comparing Lebron NOW is unfair to Jordan's legacy, it's hard to even compare Lebron to Kobe at this very moment as Kobe has achieved much more than Lebron. I am not saying Lebron will never be better than Jordan or Kobe because being a better player is totally anyones preference and opinion! but as far as accolades go, Lebron's career doesn't even compare to Michael J Jordan's accomplishments.

To a point. I think you can already compare Lebron to Kobe somewhat. Jordan of course not, we are talking 4 more finals MVP's than either, and lots of other awards. Basically the best player in the league every year for most of his career and I've shown before how you can build two HOF players with what Jordan accomplished that Kobe hasn't. I am sure it would look similar with Lebron.

But Kobe vs. Lebron you have a MUCH closer argument.

4 MVPs and 2 finals MVP's vs. 1 MVP and 2 finals MVP's. Lebron's overall impact of course shines most with his rounded game, as seen with the advanced metrics. 5 more years leading the league in win shares, 6 more years leading the league in PER, 8 more years leading the league in value over replacement, and that follows through the post-season too.

Numbers Kobe has the longetivity, but even still Lebron has already passed him in assists, steals, blocks and may pass him in boards next year even with playing 25% fewer games. And Lebron has passed him in the post-season in every single major career stat but career points.

Sure on the flip side of the argument you can talk about Kobe a a zillion time all star, or other awards voted on such as all defensive team or all star votes, or his accomplishments with Shaq...

But Lebron as the alpha has led his team to as many rings and more finals than Kobe. Lebron has been the best player in the league a lot more than Kobe has. Kobe has been a great player in the league more years than Lebron.

So if you are pointing at greatness over multiple years, Kobe has it. If you are talking about being the dominant force in the NBA the most years, Lebron has it. Depends on what you call the greatest.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 07:30 AM
"People love to use the 6 championships as the end all be all but then when it comes to these kinds of facts you get the crap excuses or the hater comment or the

Facts are facts."


I use the 6 rings FACT because this is what they compete for...this is why they even play the game of basketball, to win at the very highest level...if you cannot see this then I am sorry , but I think YOU are the hater.

So Robert Horry---->Kobe and Jordan? Competing for it yes but no 1 player wins a title... You need talent around you to win titles and fact James has not had half the talent around him that Jordan/Kobe had

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 07:40 AM
So Robert Horry---->Kobe and Jordan? Competing for it yes but no 1 player wins a title... You need talent around you to win titles and fact James has not had half the talent around him that Jordan/Kobe had

Dude, stop it! you already know this is NOT what I'm trying to say LOL gosh will this ever cease? why always the same dam format? just use some common sense and be real for a second dam! Lebron is my favorite player! I grew up watching MJ, but none of what I am saying is based off of personal preference...it's kind of the way it is.
Look, lets all be real for a second ok? does anyone think that if they were to ask every single NBA player who they think is better (between Lebron and Jordan) what do you think most would say? what about if you were to ask every single NBA coach and all of their coaching staff that very same question, what do you think they'd say?

Now tell me, with a clear conscience, do you think YOUR opinion matters more than theirs?

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 07:43 AM
Dude, stop it! you already know this is NOT what I'm trying to say LOL gosh will this ever cease? why always the same dam format? just use some common sense and be real for a second dam! Lebron is my favorite player! I grew up watching MJ, but none of what I am saying is based off of personal preference...it's kind of the way it is.
Look, lets all be real for a second ok? does anyone think that if they were to ask every single NBA player who they think is better (between Lebron and Jordan) what do you think most would say? what about if you were to ask every single NBA coach and all of their coaching staff that very same question, what do you think they'd say?

Now tell me, with a clear conscience, do you think YOUR opinion matters more than theirs?

all i am seeing is facts thrown out and a rebuttal from you about perception.


And when someone cant respond to facts they then go the route of our opinion not mattering because we havent played the sport because god forbid players who play the game have to know the sport better than anyone... Some of the players that have played the game are dumb as dirt and scoring---------->everything else... So yes Id take some peoples opinions on the game over actual players because we have facts/numbers/equations/formulas and can evaluate all around players while most players look at championships and scoring.

These guys seem to have an opinion on the matter

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/teammates-of-lebron-james-say-hes-close-to-dethroning-michael-jordan-as-the-best-to-ever-play-357674.html

Oh yea and then there is this guy

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/outside-shot/Alonzo-Mourning-Scottie-Pippen-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-208180901.html

thenaj17
05-26-2015, 07:45 AM
When did MJ become the greatest ever? Bill Russell is the best ever.

Bill Russell wasn't even the best Centre in his own era...

D-Leethal
05-26-2015, 07:49 AM
all i am seeing is facts thrown out and a rebuttal from you about perception.


And when someone cant respond to facts they then go the route of our opinion not mattering because we havent played the sport because god forbid players who play the game have to know the sport better than anyone... Some of the players that have played the game are dumb as dirt and scoring---------->everything else... So yes Id take some peoples opinions on the game over actual players because we have facts/numbers/equations/formulas and can evaluate all around players while most players look at championships and scoring.

These guys seem to have an opinion on the matter

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/teammates-of-lebron-james-say-hes-close-to-dethroning-michael-jordan-as-the-best-to-ever-play-357674.html

Oh yea and then there is this guy

http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/outside-shot/Alonzo-Mourning-Scottie-Pippen-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-208180901.html

lol, dude his facts are no less facts than what you are saying. You are drawing opinions out of facts and saying the opinion he is drawing out of facts is perception. You really come off as a little boy at times during your arguments.

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 07:54 AM
lol, dude his facts are no less facts than what you are saying. You are drawing opinions out of facts and saying the opinion he is drawing out of facts is perception. You really come off as a little boy at times during your arguments.

He has one fact... Championships.. Bring facts to the table or pick apart my post above with all of those facts about James when he leaves teams and so on.

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 08:17 AM
People using the rings argument say one of the 2 things or admit your a hypocrite:


Robert Horry and Jim Loscutoff are better than Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan

or

Shut up, I'm credible rings are an individual accomplishment not a team one so the rings argument is the only thing that matters and stop pointing out things that impact my credibility because I will just change my argument. What is wrong with you thing teammates impact ability to win rings

PhillyFaninLA
05-26-2015, 08:19 AM
Lebron has a chance when it is all said an done to be the best ever, or at least be in the conversation. His passing in the second half Sunday night was impressive.

I don't think a sweep of GS does it because he is still in his prime, lets see his prime play out before we call Lebron the best ever

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-26-2015, 03:39 PM
Lebron has a chance when it is all said an done to be the best ever, or at least be in the conversation. His passing in the second half Sunday night was impressive.

I don't think a sweep of GS does it because he is still in his prime, lets see his prime play out before we call Lebron the best ever

Lebron has no shot at goat.

koreancabbage
05-26-2015, 04:25 PM
Lebron has no shot at goat.

i don't think so either unless he wins 7 all together and has 7 Finals MVPs

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 04:46 PM
Lebron has no shot at goat.

He has the chance because he could post durability numbers and accumulate so much that he will be considered 1A and 1B with MJ

Honestly, he has a very real chance to be the all time leading scorer, while having a ton of boards, assists, etc.

At some point, if he can play so long and continue with great efficiency, he would have to sit in the goat conversation, even without the rings.

magic0320
05-26-2015, 04:54 PM
I will remember lebron as great player but he will always also have QUITER. If I start franchise I rather have other greats not lebron he disappears in finals. only reason he won is because he had 2 all stars. Kobe never had that. other than washed up Karl and Gary.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 04:54 PM
you guys who already have it set in your mind that player X needs "Y" number of championships to be the best, or better than player "Z" aren't basketball fans, you're playstation trophy whores.

YAALREADYKNO
05-26-2015, 05:49 PM
He has the chance because he could post durability numbers and accumulate so much that he will be considered 1A and 1B with MJ

Honestly, he has a very real chance to be the all time leading scorer, while having a ton of boards, assists, etc.

At some point, if he can play so long and continue with great efficiency, he would have to sit in the goat conversation, even without the rings.

That "GOAT" talk ended in 2011 against the mavs. Can he finish in the top 3-5 sure I see why not

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 05:50 PM
That "GOAT" talk ended in 2011 against the mavs

Did Jordan never have a bad playoff series or something?

Jeffy25
05-26-2015, 05:51 PM
I will remember lebron as great player but he will always also have QUITER. If I start franchise I rather have other greats not lebron he disappears in finals. only reason he won is because he had 2 all stars. Kobe never had that. other than washed up Karl and Gary.

And that Shaq fella


Does it bother you that LeBron has better numbers than Kobe in the Finals?

YAALREADYKNO
05-26-2015, 05:53 PM
Did Jordan never have a bad playoff series or something?

Yes he did but he never had one where he looked like he was relying on others to carry him to a championship. You can say Jordan never won till pippen but even then you knew Jordan was the #1 guy on that team. Wade clearly was the #1 guy for the heat in the 11 finals

Hawkeye15
05-26-2015, 06:45 PM
No, he would not. He won't ever pass MJ no matter what he does now, unless he finds the fountain of youth and becomes the explosive player he was at age 25 for a few years.

James will no doubt be a top 5 player ever when he is done, but you have a slim margin of error trying to catch Jordan. He missed it. But he can enter the KAJ/Wilt tier for me. And worst case, I can't see him falling outside the top 7 ever.

Tony_Starks
05-26-2015, 06:48 PM
No, he would not. He won't ever pass MJ no matter what he does now, unless he finds the fountain of youth and becomes the explosive player he was at age 25 for a few years.

James will no doubt be a top 5 player ever when he is done, but you have a slim margin of error trying to catch Jordan. He missed it. But he can enter the KAJ/Wilt tier for me. And worst case, I can't see him falling outside the top 7 ever.

Where do you have him now, before the Finals?

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 06:54 PM
No, he would not. He won't ever pass MJ no matter what he does now, unless he finds the fountain of youth and becomes the explosive player he was at age 25 for a few years.

James will no doubt be a top 5 player ever when he is done, but you have a slim margin of error trying to catch Jordan. He missed it. But he can enter the KAJ/Wilt tier for me. And worst case, I can't see him falling outside the top 7 ever.

And this is the only problem I have... You basically are saying that the only way someone can pass MJ as Goat is to go 6-6 or never lose in the finals while winning multiple championships... No offense hawk but that is just dumb logic... In what year did Lebron have a supporting cast similar to the likes the Jordan had? Even with bosh and wade they were not as good as those bulls teams from top to bottom so now the GOAT which means greatest of all time and not greatest of all time while being lucky enough to be on one if the best teams ever title.... so basically nobody will ever have a shot to surpass Jordan because the Lebrons and so on of the world are stuck on bad teams for 5 years with little to no help and no shot at any titles and then get called out when they leave for free agency.

Championships matter but it shouldnt be the end all be all which most of you are making it... James will be statistically better than Jordan when its all said and done in almost every area and was a much better all around player.... The only thing Jordan will have is that finals record which again he couldnt do without Pippen... Before pippen how far did MJ get in the playoffs?

More-Than-Most
05-26-2015, 07:05 PM
Durant now has no shot... He is already 0-1 in the finals.

Jamiecballer
05-26-2015, 07:19 PM
Durant now has no shot... He is already 0-1 in the finals.
He's not complete enough anyways but touche

YAALREADYKNO
05-26-2015, 07:29 PM
And this is the only problem I have... You basically are saying that the only way someone can pass MJ as Goat is to go 6-6 or never lose in the finals while winning multiple championships... No offense hawk but that is just dumb logic... In what year did Lebron have a supporting cast similar to the likes the Jordan had? Even with bosh and wade they were not as good as those bulls teams from top to bottom so now the GOAT which means greatest of all time and not greatest of all time while being lucky enough to be on one if the best teams ever title.... so basically nobody will ever have a shot to surpass Jordan because the Lebrons and so on of the world are stuck on bad teams for 5 years with little to no help and no shot at any titles and then get called out when they leave for free agency.

Championships matter but it shouldnt be the end all be all which most of you are making it... James will be statistically better than Jordan when its all said and done in almost every area and was a much better all around player.... The only thing Jordan will have is that finals record which again he couldnt do without Pippen... Before pippen how far did MJ get in the playoffs?

Are you seriously suggesting there's a legit shot lebron can pass up Jordan as the greatest? Even if he wins 6 his legacy would still be tainted by how weak he was in the 11 finals.

FraziersKnicks
05-26-2015, 07:34 PM
I agree with Hawk. I don't think LeBron feasibly has a shot at MJ. You really have to be faultless to matchup with the GOAT, his career was just that great.

I think LBJ will be top 5 when it's all said and done, potentially top 3 depending on how his decline plays out. Winning a title this year would certainly boost him to top 5 for me.

smith&wesson
05-26-2015, 07:38 PM
you gotta love psd nba forum threads.

Lebron takes a dump, what yall think ? Lebron farted, what do you guys think ?

Lebron grew hair back, what does every one think ?

Lebron is the best! Lebron is the worst!

Lebron eats corn flakes! Melos' wife should be Lebrons wife, even if she taste like cheerios and Lebron prefers corn flakes.

l love LeBron, you mad bro ? I hate Lebron, you mad bro ?

Lebrons new team, Lebrons old team, Lebrons next team

KD suprassed Lebron, oh hes injured ? ok Curry surpassed Lebron

MJ vs Lebron

All hail Lebron ....

etc, etc, etc, etc,

sammyvine
05-26-2015, 09:03 PM
I like Lebron but I cannot ever see him being GOAT.

Jordan forget what he won but his impact, intangibles are just so great that it makes him even better than he was. Look at all the players that look up to him Lebron, Kobe, Durant, CP3 etc...
Lebron will never have that impact imo

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 11:31 PM
Are you seriously suggesting there's a legit shot lebron can pass up Jordan as the greatest? Even if he wins 6 his legacy would still be tainted by how weak he was in the 11 finals.

And that's where we just get really dumb isn't it. Lebron doesn't win there, at age 26, and Jordan at that age was going through bad shooting nights in losses in the Eastern Conference finals, but gets the pass because he lost before he could even get to the finals.

If he wins 6 and wins 9 conference championships, how is that worse than winning 6 finals and only 6 conference championships?

I don't think that will happen for him, but that's where we just get dumb isn't it?

Hawkeye15
05-26-2015, 11:37 PM
Where do you have him now, before the Finals?

I do tiers. I could care less about where you move them within my tiers

Jordan

KAJ/Wilt

Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem/Magic

Kobe/LeBron/Bird/Russell

I figure he ends up in my 2nd tier.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2015, 11:39 PM
And this is the only problem I have... You basically are saying that the only way someone can pass MJ as Goat is to go 6-6 or never lose in the finals while winning multiple championships... No offense hawk but that is just dumb logic... In what year did Lebron have a supporting cast similar to the likes the Jordan had? Even with bosh and wade they were not as good as those bulls teams from top to bottom so now the GOAT which means greatest of all time and not greatest of all time while being lucky enough to be on one if the best teams ever title.... so basically nobody will ever have a shot to surpass Jordan because the Lebrons and so on of the world are stuck on bad teams for 5 years with little to no help and no shot at any titles and then get called out when they leave for free agency.

Championships matter but it shouldnt be the end all be all which most of you are making it... James will be statistically better than Jordan when its all said and done in almost every area and was a much better all around player.... The only thing Jordan will have is that finals record which again he couldnt do without Pippen... Before pippen how far did MJ get in the playoffs?

LeBron's Mavs series excluded him from catching Jordan. Period. And you know how much I support LeBron dude. But Jordan never laid an egg when it mattered most. Never.

He isn't catching him.

Jeffy25
05-27-2015, 03:00 AM
Everyone here knows how little I care about chips when discussing individual greatness.

But let's play some devils advocate.

If LeBron does win another championship this season, it would be his third, and this is his age 30 NBA season.

That's how many Jordan had at age 30. Jordan started his second three peat in his age 31 season.

So if LeBron could win a ring this year, it would have him tied with Jordan in rings at the same age.

For those that care about rings, doesn't that keep him on par with Jordan?

And while a three-peat is obviously, and always, unlikely. It's certainly possible that LeBron win in 16, 17, and 18. As unlikely as that is, it was unlikely that Jordan would do it either.

In a GOAT discussion, it's possible that LeBron could finish with more rings than Jordan, even though it's unlikely and he is probably entering his decline now. But he could play another 8-10 years, and will probably be the best player on his team for another 6ish years. If he grabs a chip here, and three more at some other point in the next 5-6 years as his teams leader.....and at that point he would have Jordan statistically too, wouldn't he have to be your GOAT at that point?

Sure there are Finals loses, but more Conference Chips, and the same number of chips, and greater career numbers....that would seem like GOAT to me, or at least 1A and 1B

Again, don't care about chips for a goat discussion, but if LeBron wins this year, he'll have as many as Jordan did at the same age (meaning it's totally reasonable to think he could end with as many if not more than Jordan).

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 05:34 AM
Everyone here knows how little I care about chips when discussing individual greatness.

But let's play some devils advocate.

If LeBron does win another championship this season, it would be his third, and this is his age 30 NBA season.

That's how many Jordan had at age 30. Jordan started his second three peat in his age 31 season.

So if LeBron could win a ring this year, it would have him tied with Jordan in rings at the same age.

For those that care about rings, doesn't that keep him on par with Jordan?

And while a three-peat is obviously, and always, unlikely. It's certainly possible that LeBron win in 16, 17, and 18. As unlikely as that is, it was unlikely that Jordan would do it either.

In a GOAT discussion, it's possible that LeBron could finish with more rings than Jordan, even though it's unlikely and he is probably entering his decline now. But he could play another 8-10 years, and will probably be the best player on his team for another 6ish years. If he grabs a chip here, and three more at some other point in the next 5-6 years as his teams leader.....and at that point he would have Jordan statistically too, wouldn't he have to be your GOAT at that point?

Sure there are Finals loses, but more Conference Chips, and the same number of chips, and greater career numbers....that would seem like GOAT to me, or at least 1A and 1B

Again, don't care about chips for a goat discussion, but if LeBron wins this year, he'll have as many as Jordan did at the same age (meaning it's totally reasonable to think he could end with as many if not more than Jordan).

I've done this before, and while I think when talking the best of an era or the best ever, rings matter especially in basketball for me. But not the absolute end all, I'll go with awards, accomplishments, numbers, and it is a big combo that there is no right or wrong answer.

But a combination... Jordan has 6 rings, 6 finals MVP's, 1 DPOY, 1 ROY, About 10 times 1st team all NBA and 9 time 1st team all defensive. 5 MVP's and another 5 years he was top 3 in voting. Led league in PER 7 times, win shares 9 times, scoring 10 times, Vorp 7 times.

Lebron 2 rings 2 finals MVP's, 0 DPOY, 1 ROY, 9 time 1st team all NBA, 5 time 1st all defense. 4 MVP's and another 4 times in the top 3. Led league in PER 6 times, win shares 5 times, vorp 8 times, scoring 1 time.

So currently he has a ways to go yet in every possible area (numbers, awards, championship play). I think for him to get there we are looking at another 3-4 rings, plus another 2-4 elite years. That is a tall order.

It seems possible, but doubtful for me, just because there was no social media to critique Jordan like there is today across all NBA players, and as much as it looks like he won't ever slow down, 4-5 years from now is a long ways off.

5 years ago Nash was the best passer in the NBA and Derrick Rose was the MVP (edging Dwight Howard). Monta Ellis was looking top 5 and the future of the Warriors, Odom was the 6th man of the year, and Amare Stoudemire was looking like the best FA pickup of the year... by the Knicks.

It's easy to say now, oh of course he will do that. But that means he can't play any worse than this year over the next 4-5 years. I am doubtful. But that's my way at looking at it. I am sure others will look at his all around game and move him up for that or his using free agency and moving him down.

YAALREADYKNO
05-27-2015, 06:12 AM
And that's where we just get really dumb isn't it. Lebron doesn't win there, at age 26, and Jordan at that age was going through bad shooting nights in losses in the Eastern Conference finals, but gets the pass because he lost before he could even get to the finals.

If he wins 6 and wins 9 conference championships, how is that worse than winning 6 finals and only 6 conference championships?

I don't think that will happen for him, but that's where we just get dumb isn't it?

It's dumb how Yall think how he can still catch jordan even after that choke job in 11 Lol. It isn't the fact that he lost that finals it's the fact that he was so bad for a guy who's supposed to be this all time great player.

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 07:43 AM
It's dumb how Yall think how he can still catch jordan even after that choke job in 11 Lol. It isn't the fact that he lost that finals it's the fact that he was so bad for a guy who's supposed to be this all time great player.

Yeah, because Jordans choke job in the ECF how many years in a row really ruined his rep didn't it?

All we think of is that game 7 and Jordan getting blown out by 20, and the year before.. Dominating, up 2-1 on the Pistons, chokes over the next three games with back to back losses where he only made 4 and 5 shots in back to back games and then becomes a turnover machine in game 7.

I mean Jordan, the guy scoring nearly 38 a game in the playoffs, tied 1-1 disappears over the next 3 games averaging 24 points in three straight losses. Then the next year up 2-1 and again averaging nearly 42 a game, chokes out his final 3 games by averaging just 24 to the SAME TEAM.

Imagine if Lebron dropped his game by 18 points a game and choked out 3 straight losses to the same team he lost to in the same fashion the year before?

Social media sure does change how we look at things. Of course so does back to back threepeats.

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2015, 08:16 AM
Truth is...this topic would not exists if it was a ridiculous statement.

We cannot know where history will rank someone until years after they retire. (figure 10 years or so and history starts to settle in).

We can debate this but we won't know for sure until some time around 2030 when we are far enough from the end of his career to properly look back at his career.

I call Kobe the 4th best Laker of all time, but who knows a decade after he retires and I look back what I'll think, or anyone else here no matter how hard you defend or criticize Lebron.

Time helps remove some bias and allows us to proper evaluate, without a bad game the night before (or a great one) impacting our thoughts.

eso
05-27-2015, 08:27 AM
Truth is...this topic would not exists if it was a ridiculous statement.

We cannot know where history will rank someone until years after they retire. (figure 10 years or so and history starts to settle in).

We can debate this but we won't know for sure until some time around 2030 when we are far enough from the end of his career to properly look back at his career.

I call Kobe the 4th best Laker of all time, but who knows a decade after he retires and I look back what I'll think, or anyone else here no matter how hard you defend or criticize Lebron.

Time helps remove some bias and allows us to proper evaluate, without a bad game the night before (or a great one) impacting our thoughts.

Who are the 4 lakers you have ahead of Kobe? Magic, The Logo, Shaq and KAJ???
He is a clear number 2 in my mind and.

Also Bron never catches MJ because of passion for the game.

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2015, 08:46 AM
Who are the 4 lakers you have ahead of Kobe? Magic, The Logo, Shaq and KAJ???
He is a clear number 2 in my mind and.

Also Bron never catches MJ because of passion for the game.

4th means 3 better not 4 better...and yes Magic, KAJ, Shaq....Wilt probably as well.


I also stand by my point that you completely ignored, know one can say for sure why someone is playing, that is why I mentioned Kobe...10 years after he retires and I don't think about the things that annoy me about him I may look at him differently...same applies to every player to ever play.

You can't accurately judge why they are playing or just after they retire...you need to look back. and Bron may catch him and may not for you...you don't know what you'll think in 15 years from now.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 09:57 AM
Who are the 4 lakers you have ahead of Kobe? Magic, The Logo, Shaq and KAJ???
He is a clear number 2 in my mind and.

Also Bron never catches MJ because of passion for the game.

Passion for the game? You don't play through that much scrutiny and not have any passion. Some using this lazy argument to prove your point. All it proves is that some people express themselves in different ways. If two people are doing the same job but one is quiet and the other is loud, does that mean the one who is quiet lacks passion? That has to do with their personality. Does Duncan lack passion? What about Shaq when he was clowning around?

YAALREADYKNO
05-27-2015, 10:12 AM
Yeah, because Jordans choke job in the ECF how many years in a row really ruined his rep didn't it?

All we think of is that game 7 and Jordan getting blown out by 20, and the year before.. Dominating, up 2-1 on the Pistons, chokes over the next three games with back to back losses where he only made 4 and 5 shots in back to back games and then becomes a turnover machine in game 7.

I mean Jordan, the guy scoring nearly 38 a game in the playoffs, tied 1-1 disappears over the next 3 games averaging 24 points in three straight losses. Then the next year up 2-1 and again averaging nearly 42 a game, chokes out his final 3 games by averaging just 24 to the SAME TEAM.

Imagine if Lebron dropped his game by 18 points a game and choked out 3 straight losses to the same team he lost to in the same fashion the year before?

Social media sure does change how we look at things. Of course so does back to back threepeats.

24 is still better than 17 lmao. If the heat would've won in 11 lebron wouldn't have even been finals MVP. Wade was the heats best player in that series. Even with pippen there everyone still knew that was Jordan's team and Jordan was the #1 guy. Lebron was being carried in those finals by wade.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:17 AM
24 is still better than 17 lmao. If the heat would've won in 11 lebron wouldn't have even been finals MVP. Wade was the heats best player in that series. Even with pippen there everyone still knew that was Jordan's team and Jordan was the #1 guy. Lebron was being carried in those finals by wade.

If the Heat would've won in 11, LeBron would have played much better for that to happen... meaning, he'd probably be the Finals MVP. You're essentially being double sided with your argument.

YAALREADYKNO
05-27-2015, 12:09 PM
If the Heat would've won in 11, LeBron would have played much better for that to happen... meaning, he'd probably be the Finals MVP. You're essentially being double sided with your argument.

Huh?

Jeffy25
05-27-2015, 01:21 PM
Huh?

He is saying that if the Heat won in 11, it would have been because LeBron had a better series, and would probably have played so well that he did better than Wade and would have been Finals MVP

YAALREADYKNO
05-27-2015, 03:11 PM
He is saying that if the Heat won in 11, it would have been because LeBron had a better series, and would probably have played so well that he did better than Wade and would have been Finals MVP

Can you imagine Jordan looking that weak in an NBA Finals? We're talking about the Greatest Player ever. He didn't have to disappear that much in the 4th and the heat would've while wade would still be MVP

Jeffy25
05-27-2015, 03:13 PM
Can you imagine Jordan looking that weak in an NBA Finals? We're talking about the Greatest Player ever.

Didn't Jordan have other playoff series similar in his career?

JordansBulls
05-27-2015, 04:08 PM
Didn't Jordan have other playoff series similar in his career?

No he never averaged less than 27.3 ppg in a playoff series.

Jeffy25
05-27-2015, 04:18 PM
No he never averaged less than 27.3 ppg in a playoff series.

We all know Jordan was more of a scorer than LeBron has been, LeBron only took 15 shots per game in the 11 Finals, Jordan never took less than 21 shots per game in a playoff series (that I saw)

In 89, Jordan's series against the Pistons, the Bulls were up 2-1 before losing three straight, including Game 6 at Home. Jordan posted 29 ppg that series, with 5.5 boards, 6.5 assists, and 4 turnovers per game and an average game score of 21.4 and 46% shooting (.561% true shooting)

LeBron may have only scored 17 ppg, but he still got 7 boards and 7 assists per game on .478% shooting (.541% true shooting)

I wouldn't say Jordan was quite as bad as LeBron was in this one very particular series, but neither of them played like a GOAT either.



I just find it silly to say a guy can't be the GOAT because of a bad 6 games (up 2-1 like Jordan, lost 3 in a row, including Game 6 at home).

Just because Jordan kept shooting, doesn't somehow make his bad series more immune to failure. LeBron wasn't getting it done, Wade was doing a better job, he deferred. That isn't always a bad thing.


I don't know that LeBron can ever be the GOAT, but I don't think the argument against him can be settled because of a bad 6 games, once, when he was 26

tredigs
05-27-2015, 04:36 PM
We all know Jordan was more of a scorer than LeBron has been, LeBron only took 15 shots per game in the 11 Finals, Jordan never took less than 21 shots per game in a playoff series (that I saw)

In 89, Jordan's series against the Pistons, the Bulls were up 2-1 before losing three straight, including Game 6 at Home. Jordan posted 29 ppg that series, with 5.5 boards, 6.5 assists, and 4 turnovers per game and an average game score of 21.4 and 46% shooting (.561% true shooting)

LeBron may have only scored 17 ppg, but he still got 7 boards and 7 assists per game on .478% shooting (.541% true shooting)

I wouldn't say Jordan was quite as bad as LeBron was in this one very particular series, but neither of them played like a GOAT either.



I just find it silly to say a guy can't be the GOAT because of a bad 6 games (up 2-1 like Jordan, lost 3 in a row, including Game 6 at home).

Just because Jordan kept shooting, doesn't somehow make his bad series more immune to failure. LeBron wasn't getting it done, Wade was doing a better job, he deferred. That isn't always a bad thing.


I don't know that LeBron can ever be the GOAT, but I don't think the argument against him can be settled because of a bad 6 games, once, when he was 26
You're comparing 30/6/7 on 46% FG against the Bad Boy Pistons with Dumars guarding him and Rodman + Laimbeer patrolling the paint to James' epic (..ly bad) showing against the Mavs in the Finals? That was the Bad Boy Pistons dude. They were an incredibly tough D and the class of the NBA (they had lost the previous Finals, and won that year + the next year. This was at the time of Peak Showtime + Bird's Celtics...). Pippen went down immediately in Game 6 of that series btw.

If you watched the Heat Finals that year, you know it was much more about his clearly (and incredibly strangely) apathetic performance than it was the final #'s. Those #'s would have been a decent bit worse without some inexplicable garbage-time runs to close that they put him in for. It was the oddest display of a lack of passion I'd ever seen from a superstar in any sport in such a big situation. That's why most consider that he effectively closed his "GOAT" door in that series (there were certainly other situations like the Celtics ECF's that people point to, but this was the Finals and every game was worse than the prior). #'s wise he could eventually accumulate a large enough resume' to make his case, but he'll never have MJ's level of respect from most hoops fans.

lol, please
05-27-2015, 04:40 PM
You're comparing 30/6/7 on 46% FG against the Bad Boy Pistons with Dumars guarding him and Rodman + Laimbeer patrolling the paint to James' epic (..ly bad) showing against the Mavs in the Finals? That was the Bad Boy Pistons dude. They were an incredibly tough D and the class of the NBA (they had lost the previous Finals, and won that year + the next year. This was at the time of Peak Showtime + Bird's Celtics...). Pippen went down immediately in Game 6 of that series btw.

If you watched the Heat Finals that year, you know it was much more about his clearly (and incredibly strangely) apathetic performance than it was the final #'s. Those #'s would have been a decent bit worse without some inexplicable garbage-time runs to close that they put him in for. It was the oddest display of a lack of passion I'd ever seen from a superstar in any sport in such a big situation. That's why most consider that he effectively closed his "GOAT" door in that series (there were certainly other situations like the Celtics ECF's that people point to, but this was the Finals and every game was worse than the prior). #'s wise he could eventually accumulate a large enough resume' to make his case, but he'll never have MJ's level of respect from most hoops fans.

Another gem from tredigs. Well said. Great post. That, for all intents and purposes, should be /thread.

YAALREADYKNO
05-27-2015, 05:03 PM
Didn't Jordan have other playoff series similar in his career?

Not one where he looked scared to touch the ball like lebron did in 11 lmao

Jeffy25
05-27-2015, 05:04 PM
Not one where he looked scared to touch the ball like lebron did in 11 lmao

That isn't an effective, objective answer to the question

Jeffy25
05-27-2015, 05:05 PM
You're comparing 30/6/7 on 46% FG against the Bad Boy Pistons with Dumars guarding him and Rodman + Laimbeer patrolling the paint to James' epic (..ly bad) showing against the Mavs in the Finals? That was the Bad Boy Pistons dude. They were an incredibly tough D and the class of the NBA (they had lost the previous Finals, and won that year + the next year. This was at the time of Peak Showtime + Bird's Celtics...). Pippen went down immediately in Game 6 of that series btw.

If you watched the Heat Finals that year, you know it was much more about his clearly (and incredibly strangely) apathetic performance than it was the final #'s. Those #'s would have been a decent bit worse without some inexplicable garbage-time runs to close that they put him in for. It was the oddest display of a lack of passion I'd ever seen from a superstar in any sport in such a big situation. That's why most consider that he effectively closed his "GOAT" door in that series (there were certainly other situations like the Celtics ECF's that people point to, but this was the Finals and every game was worse than the prior). #'s wise he could eventually accumulate a large enough resume' to make his case, but he'll never have MJ's level of respect from most hoops fans.

Fair enough, thank you

YAALREADYKNO
05-27-2015, 05:07 PM
Dudes in here act like Jordan went up against today's eastern conference. Also, it's not that lebron lost the 11 finals. It's how he played in that series. He will never be over Jordan in my books unless he goes on a crazy championship streak which I doubt happens

Teufelshunde4
05-27-2015, 05:09 PM
If the Cavs Sweep and Bron dominates, does he take the #1 spot and dethrone MJ

No

Jamiecballer
05-27-2015, 05:17 PM
Anybody who 'closed the door' after that series, well their opinion should be well discounted. Don't pretend to be objective right after admitting you effectively made your mind up when he was like 26

PhillyFaninLA
05-28-2015, 06:58 AM
No he never averaged less than 27.3 ppg in a playoff series.

Valid point.

One thing that gets me in this topic is comparing Jordan and Lebron numbers don't make sense to me, they are different types of players and play different positions. While Lebron and Magic play different positions, they play similiar games so comparing there numbers is more meaningful to from a stats perspective.

I think when comparing Jordan and Lebron you need to look at impact they have on the opposing team, how does the defense adjust to the player and how does the offense adjust. I think that is more meaningful when comparing these too head to head.

Also from an athletic standpoint its hard for me to say who is a better athlete, because they are different types of athletes. Jordan never had the power and burst Lebron, but Lebron never had the finesse and flexibility Jordan does.

Jamiecballer
05-28-2015, 08:30 AM
I wonder how different this conversation would be if MJ had succeeded (failed?) by beating the Pistons in 89 to reach the finals and THEN lost instead. Its crazy how that is a negative on PSD..

joedaheights
06-02-2015, 06:33 PM
No. That's be 3 rings to 6. It's only half.

I don't hold his 2/4 in the finals against him. That first team he got to the finals had no business being there. He will that team that far and that was an amazing accomplishment. With that coach and that roster, Jordan would have done no better.


And to be frank, the Spurs were the better team in 2014 and 2013. The fact he was able to come away with one ring out of those two series is impressive. Keep in mind, the Spurs were one defensive rebounding away from winning in 2013 in game six.

But 3 rings to 6?

I think you've reached the right premise, but the devil is in the details.

Of course there are situations where no one wins. Jordan was in quite a few of them also. As good as the 2007 Spurs were in that weak league, they're a laugher compared to the 86 Celtics. And when MJ played the Pistons, Detroit really won by taking advantage of the fact that the flagrant foul, as crazy as this is, was just being conceived and used experimentally.

To say Jordan would have done no better is not right however. Lebron shot 35.6%. Does MJ win? No. But first, there's Bruce Bowen. A 25 year old Bruce Bowen, people like to forget, couldn't even get on the floor when MJ was an old player in 97 and 98. He was an afterthought. He was old by 2007. Jordan's quickness, had he played that team at age 22 or 23, would have caused the Spurs fits. With Duncan, and with the diarhea on the Cavs, I could see a 4-2 loss with MJ shooting 50%, but that is better.. he'd have lost, but looked much better doing so.

Then there's calling the 2013 and 2014 Spurs better teams. I'd rather have a worse team in terms of number of good players, but a younger Duncan who is ready to operate than a deeper team with Duncan's corpse. In 2013, I can tell you Lebron and Wade were damn lucky they weren't facing the 2003 Spurs. Even in 2007, you gladly give up Leonard for a Duncan who is ready to dictate terms down low

Tony_Starks
06-02-2015, 07:24 PM
I wonder how different this conversation would be if MJ had succeeded (failed?) by beating the Pistons in 89 to reach the finals and THEN lost instead. Its crazy how that is a negative on PSD..

Wonder how different the conversation would be if after losing in 89 MJ collaborated with Barkley and Hakeem and still lost. Then left them as they aged, hooked up with Penny Hardaway and lost.

Why play the make believe game? Times are different.....

Jamiecballer
06-04-2015, 08:45 PM
Wonder how different the conversation would be if after losing in 89 MJ collaborated with Barkley and Hakeem and still lost. Then left them as they aged, hooked up with Penny Hardaway and lost.

Why play the make believe game? Times are different.....
It's not a make believe game. It's a reminder of how short sighted and completely illogical a lot of posters on this site are when it comes to evaluating LeBron's success. Jordan could have done better that year and been dropped down a peg in the eyes of a fair number of Kobe fans/LeBron haters. Otherwise they would been exposed as total hypocrites.

L8kers4life
06-04-2015, 09:36 PM
And that's where we just get really dumb isn't it. Lebron doesn't win there, at age 26, and Jordan at that age was going through bad shooting nights in losses in the Eastern Conference finals, but gets the pass because he lost before he could even get to the finals.

If he wins 6 and wins 9 conference championships, how is that worse than winning 6 finals and only 6 conference championships?

I don't think that will happen for him, but that's where we just get dumb isn't it?


I think what most LeBron fans seem to forget is, yes Jordan lost in the conference finals, he lost many times, but Jordan didnt bail on his team, he allowed the Bulls to build from within while always keeping thema contender, then he went on to beat the Bad boy pistons, with essentially the same team he had the year before he lost to the Pistons. He earned respect because he earned his championship and then turned a team of Bill Cartwritght, John Paxson, Horace grant, BJ armstrong, craig hodges, Scottie Pippen into a Dynasty, then he retired, came back and did it again. Its one thing to earn a championship. Its a whole other thing to Pick the best place to team up with 2 of the other best players from your generation to help you win a ring, then when times get tough, go home to play with a younger team with 2 more stars.

Jamiecballer
06-04-2015, 09:52 PM
I think what most LeBron fans seem to forget is, yes Jordan lost in the conference finals, he lost many times, but Jordan didnt bail on his team, he allowed the Bulls to build from within while always keeping thema contender, then he went on to beat the Bad boy pistons, with essentially the same team he had the year before he lost to the Pistons. He earned respect because he earned his championship and then turned a team of Bill Cartwritght, John Paxson, Horace grant, BJ armstrong, craig hodges, Scottie Pippen into a Dynasty, then he retired, came back and did it again. Its one thing to earn a championship. Its a whole other thing to Pick the best place to team up with 2 of the other best players from your generation to help you win a ring, then when times get tough, go home to play with a younger team with 2 more stars.
That's just a narrative though. You are injecting your own interpretation into those events and then holding it against him, as many do. It's still just an interpretation, and fans interpretations often have no basis in reality.

Denverbronco007
06-04-2015, 11:17 PM
**** no
Lebron still hasn't surpassed Kobe

Denverbronco007
06-04-2015, 11:20 PM
Lebron is still the best player in the league. He's beasting tonight

Denverbronco007
06-04-2015, 11:24 PM
I think what most LeBron fans seem to forget is, yes Jordan lost in the conference finals, he lost many times, but Jordan didnt bail on his team, he allowed the Bulls to build from within while always keeping thema contender, then he went on to beat the Bad boy pistons, with essentially the same team he had the year before he lost to the Pistons. He earned respect because he earned his championship and then turned a team of Bill Cartwritght, John Paxson, Horace grant, BJ armstrong, craig hodges, Scottie Pippen into a Dynasty, then he retired, came back and did it again. Its one thing to earn a championship. Its a whole other thing to Pick the best place to team up with 2 of the other best players from your generation to help you win a ring, then when times get tough, go home to play with a younger team with 2 more stars.

Spot on

lol, please
06-05-2015, 12:20 AM
**** no
Lebron still hasn't surpassed Kobe

Well said.

nickdymez
06-05-2015, 12:27 AM
Close this

blams
06-05-2015, 10:25 AM
No. That's be 3 rings to 6. It's only half.

I don't hold his 2/4 in the finals against him. That first team he got to the finals had no business being there. He will that team that far and that was an amazing accomplishment. With that coach and that roster, Jordan would have done no better.


And to be frank, the Spurs were the better team in 2014 and 2013. The fact he was able to come away with one ring out of those two series is impressive. Keep in mind, the Spurs were one defensive rebounding away from winning in 2013 in game six.

But 3 rings to 6?

LeBron will never dethrone MJ.

But, rings are a team accomplishment. I only care about playoff and regular season statistics- combined.

Vinylman
06-05-2015, 10:58 AM
Lebron is impressing me more this year in a losing situation than he ever has in a winning situation...

nickdymez
06-05-2015, 11:27 AM
Lol. Why is that?

Vinylman
06-05-2015, 11:38 AM
Lol. Why is that?

because he isn't on a stacked team and isn't quitting and is just grinding like a Motherfcuker

sad if you don't see the difference in him

nickdymez
06-05-2015, 11:41 AM
because he isn't on a stacked team and isn't quitting and is just grinding like a Motherfcuker

sad if you don't see the difference in him
Don't tell me what's sad in your book. All the greats have had to overcome adversity. His team isn't stacked, but it's a pretty good team that compliments his skill set perfectly. He's terribly over matched in this series, but the greats find ways to win. That's why they are considered greats

tredigs
06-05-2015, 11:41 AM
For as much grief as we give Kobe on these boards for his hero ball in the playoffs that can lead to inefficient shooting, he never put up a playoff campaign of sub 50% TS%, which is where Lebron is at this year. His 3pt shooting is statistically the worst in playoff history on that volume. He'll be single teamed all finals and apparently is going to get the calls, so maybe he can ramp that up a bit.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2015, 12:55 PM
For as much grief as we give Kobe on these boards for his hero ball in the playoffs that can lead to inefficient shooting, he never put up a playoff campaign of sub 50% TS%, which is where Lebron is at this year. His 3pt shooting is statistically the worst in playoff history on that volume. He'll be single teamed all finals and apparently is going to get the calls, so maybe he can ramp that up a bit.

This is easily as inefficient as LeBron has ever looked. Without that first step burst anymore, he had better keep working on his outside shooting to have a nice decline (by nice I mean be dominant for another 4-5 years).

Scoots
06-05-2015, 01:05 PM
Well, this thread can be closed now. Cavs can't sweep.

Vinylman
06-05-2015, 01:07 PM
Don't tell me what's sad in your book. All the greats have had to overcome adversity. His team isn't stacked, but it's a pretty good team that compliments his skill set perfectly. He's terribly over matched in this series, but the greats find ways to win. That's why they are considered greats

If you think those 7 other guys last night are pretty good ... all I have to say is Yikes...

Lebron can't take JR or shumps shots for them...

other than miss a few less free throws there isn't much he could have done better.

nickdymez
06-05-2015, 01:11 PM
If you think those 7 other guys last night are pretty good ... all I have to say is Yikes...

Lebron can't take JR or shumps shots for them...

other than miss a few less free throws there isn't much he could have done better.
Yea they are pretty good actually. If you want to discount them to have some lebron love, that's fine. But they're been lights out all playoffs. They fit lebron perfectly.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2015, 01:13 PM
Yea they are pretty good actually. If you want to discount them to have some lebron love, that's fine. But they're been lights out all playoffs. They fit lebron perfectly.

They sure weren't last night. Those open shots aren't there against the Warriors, they are a great defensive team.

koreancabbage
06-05-2015, 01:13 PM
Yea they are pretty good actually. If you want to discount them to have some lebron love, that's fine. But they're been lights out all playoffs. They fit lebron perfectly.

dude, you think every player is good except Lebron.

Vinylman
06-05-2015, 01:17 PM
Yea they are pretty good actually. If you want to discount them to have some lebron love, that's fine. But they're been lights out all playoffs. They fit lebron perfectly.

dude... I don't like Lebron at all because I think he is a douche but that doesn't mean I don't respect what he is doing on the court....

take off your blinders for once

nickdymez
06-05-2015, 01:20 PM
dude, you think every player is good except Lebron.
I think Lebron is an all time great actually. I tend to exaggerate my dislike for him on here because people here exaggerate his legacy. He's not a top 5 player of all time. He's more realistically a top 12 player at this point. Unless he pulls this off. A great player would find a way. But I can't even hate on him to bad if kyrie is out.

85BearsDefense
06-05-2015, 01:32 PM
I didn't know that rings defined you so much, I guess I'll take Robert Horry over %90 of the guys on this list......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

This is horrible. Nobody is using rings to say "this guys better than this guy" they're simply using it to compare GREAT players. Robert Horry wasn't a GREAT player, he wasn't even a good player, he was average at best, very clutch. Get a clue.

MarkieMark48
06-05-2015, 01:37 PM
If you think those 7 other guys last night are pretty good ... all I have to say is Yikes...

Lebron can't take JR or shumps shots for them...

other than miss a few less free throws there isn't much he could have done better.

Agreed... this cavs team (w/o kyrie) probably beats the 07 Finals Cavs in 7 games

8kobe24
06-05-2015, 01:49 PM
Welp... there goes that argument.

bucketss
06-05-2015, 02:11 PM
Agreed... this cavs team (w/o kyrie) probably beats the 07 Finals Cavs in 7 games

true, 07 cavs although they were swept the games were pretty close. considering the gap in talent.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-05-2015, 02:16 PM
This has got to be in the psd hof for the top five worst threads ever.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-05-2015, 03:40 PM
I think Lebron is an all time great actually. I tend to exaggerate my dislike for him on here because people here exaggerate his legacy. He's not a top 5 player of all time. He's more realistically a top 12 player at this point. Unless he pulls this off. A great player would find a way. But I can't even hate on him to bad if kyrie is out.

Even if Kyrie is in, they were the heavy underdog by far.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2015, 04:15 PM
This has got to be in the psd hof for the top five worst threads ever.

god you just threw a softball up there, but I have to let it go by...

L8kers4life
06-05-2015, 04:21 PM
Even if Kyrie is in, they were the heavy underdog by far.

I wouldn't say heavily favored GSW is a 2 to 1 favorite right now, that is hardly heavy favorites, most gamblers are betting on LeBron and the Cavs to win because you can pick the best player in the world as a slight underdog, now that Kyrie is going to miss some games, Warriors will now be heavy favorites.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2015, 04:24 PM
in Vegas, even with Love-Irving-LeBron they were underdogs, even though I think that is a fairly even series.

SanAntonioSpurs23
06-06-2015, 02:08 AM
When will people realize that LeBron will never dethrone Jordan? His finals record is pathetic despite having a free pass to the Finals every year.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-06-2015, 02:35 AM
When will people realize that LeBron will never dethrone Jordan? His finals record is pathetic despite having a free pass to the Finals every year.

Stop with all the logic, Lebron fans can't handle it.

RAPS424
06-06-2015, 10:30 AM
H
I think what most LeBron fans seem to forget is, yes Jordan lost in the conference finals, he lost many times, but Jordan didnt bail on his team, he allowed the Bulls to build from within while always keeping thema contender, then he went on to beat the Bad boy pistons, with essentially the same team he had the year before he lost to the Pistons. He earned respect because he earned his championship and then turned a team of Bill Cartwritght, John Paxson, Horace grant, BJ armstrong, craig hodges, Scottie Pippen into a Dynasty, then he retired, came back and did it again. Its one thing to earn a championship. Its a whole other thing to Pick the best place to team up with 2 of the other best players from your generation to help you win a ring, then when times get tough, go home to play with a younger team with 2 more stars.

And THAT will be Lebrons " legacy"
Well said man !!

jerellh528
06-06-2015, 10:56 AM
Well this thread can be closed. Cavs aren't sweeping anyone.

lol, please
06-06-2015, 10:32 PM
Welp... there goes that argument.


This has got to be in the psd hof for the top five worst threads ever.


Well this thread can be closed. Cavs aren't sweeping anyone.
[emoji23]

IKnowHoops
06-06-2015, 10:56 PM
What say you?

HandsOnTheWheel
06-06-2015, 11:04 PM
no