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FlashBolt
05-25-2015, 12:48 AM
Assuming Irving isn't healthy, no Love and the GSW are playing the way they are. Prime Jordan from their 1st three-peat. Of course, no LeBron on his roster.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-25-2015, 12:52 AM
Probably not.

ManRam
05-25-2015, 12:55 AM
i don't think anyone would be favored to beat the warriors with the cavs' roster minus kyrie and love.

the one thing we know is that he never won a ring with a supporting cast equal to or worse than the cavs minus those two guys. so saying that he absolutely would is a bit of a reach. maybe he could, but "would" is too bold.

especially considering that the warriors might be one of the 10 greatest teams of the modern era. i think it would be unlikely.

sager729
05-25-2015, 12:57 AM
What are you considering the modern era?

goingfor28
05-25-2015, 01:11 AM
Lebron. As much as I do not like him. Makes the Cavs pretty even vs gsw imo. So yes. Prime Jordan would at least make them even favorites.

Jayb587
05-25-2015, 01:13 AM
he wouldn't even be there to embarrass himself with that scrub cavs team in the finals due to the actual competition he would've lost to in the east in his day .

dhopisthename
05-25-2015, 01:15 AM
does jordan get lebron?

More-Than-Most
05-25-2015, 01:19 AM
Kobe or Jordan wouldnt stand a chance... Lebron actually has more of a chance because he is the better all around player and would get the most out of this supporting cast where is Lebron and Kobe could shoot their teams into the game all day... But neither of those guys could have a horrid shooting night and have the game James just did sorry... Even when james has a game that people consider an off game he did what he just did while injured... That game was historic... A Prime Lebron fully healthy would be the only player outside of magic that could have a shot against this warriors team with this cavs team.

L8kers4life
05-25-2015, 01:35 AM
Assuming Irving isn't healthy, no Love and the GSW are playing the way they are. Prime Jordan from their 1st three-peat.

No I don't think Jordan could beat Golden State with this cast, if Lebron pulls this off he deserves all the credit, that would be another level. I gained so much respect for him tonight, his shot was not falling early but every other part of his game was ridiculous, and he now hits every big shot down the stretch, he missed a layup with like 40 seconds left in ot, Cleveland got the offensive rebound and before the ball got to LeBron I said game over, LeBron's gonna hit a three and bang. This is definitely next level stuff.

flea
05-25-2015, 01:37 AM
I'm no Jordan homer, his style ruined how the game is officiated and he was gifted a lot in his later years. But nobody who saw prime Jordan would think he wouldn't be favored given a solid defensive and rebounding team - which is exactly what the Cavs are (and more). He was a dominant 2-way player for 40 minutes a game back then, and perhaps the best scorer the game has ever seen in his prime. He'd be favored over anybody but the dominant post threats of the game's history.

tredigs
05-25-2015, 01:44 AM
He'd actually be a great defender on Curry, and had the stamina to compete on both ends all game until the 2nd 3-Peat. So he'd be particularly dangerous against the Warriors. Probably the most dangerous possible player given his skill set. You won't see Lebron on Curry much, and for good reason.

Whether or not they'd be favored (? eh) would be dependent on Kyrie also being 100%. Without that they'd still be dogs, and even with them it would probably be closer to 50/50 at best. The Warriors are extremely ****ing good. Better than teams that have beat Jordan/Pippen's Bulls.

Hawkeye15
05-25-2015, 01:50 AM
oh god no. How on earth is the current Cavs team with the Love out, Irving injuries, going to stop the machine that is GS?

Jordan, Wilt, KAJ, wouldn't matter. If the Cavs win a title haha, Bron moves into top 3 ever.

Dade County
05-25-2015, 01:53 AM
With no Kyrie no Jordan wouldn't beat this Warriors team. With Kyrie, yes Mj could.

But I also think OKC with a healthy KD, would beat this warriors team in 6 games.


Kyrie & Curry are going to destroy each other in the Final's; should be flashy.

tredigs
05-25-2015, 02:05 AM
oh god no. How on earth is the current Cavs team with the Love out, Irving injuries, going to stop the machine that is GS?

Jordan, Wilt, KAJ, wouldn't matter. If the Cavs win a title haha, Bron moves into top 3 ever.

Depending on how they'd win and assuming it was him carrying them, yeah -- I'd probably co-sign that.

slaker619
05-25-2015, 02:06 AM
Would truly love to see it, got to go with Warriors just because how deep their Bench runs

Hawkeye15
05-25-2015, 02:24 AM
Depending on how they'd win and assuming it was him carrying them, yeah -- I'd probably co-sign that.

who the hell else would be carrying them haha?

tredigs
05-25-2015, 02:38 AM
who the hell else would be carrying them haha?

Kyrie if he gets hot enough could win them a game or two and definitely has the ability to trump Lebron in certain games. We have seen Lebron outplayed by his own teammate in a Finals series before we have to remember.

I definitely am not projecting that, especially given his current physical state, but it's possible.

AllBall
05-25-2015, 03:28 AM
No. The only future Hall of Famer on that Cavs team is Lebron and the coach is a moron. These are things Jordan did not have against him.

Saddletramp
05-25-2015, 03:32 AM
^

jerellh528
05-25-2015, 03:39 AM
Doubt it. The warriors are a shooting team at heart though, powered by the long balls of their star guards. It's entirely possible that they go cold for an entire series, improbable but possible. Even still, they're great defensively it would be tough to beat them without a team effort.

sager729
05-25-2015, 04:32 AM
Kobe or Jordan wouldnt stand a chance... Lebron actually has more of a chance because he is the better all around player and would get the most out of this supporting cast where is Lebron and Kobe could shoot their teams into the game all day... But neither of those guys could have a horrid shooting night and have the game James just did sorry... Even when james has a game that people consider an off game he did what he just did while injured... That game was historic... A Prime Lebron fully healthy would be the only player outside of magic that could have a shot against this warriors team with this cavs team.

You act like Jordan didn't help his teammates at all. His presence alone on the offensive end was helping his team, and you act like Jordan averaged like 2 APG when he is up at 5.4. Jordan averaged less than 1 rebound per game compared to LBJ, Jordan averaged more SPG and BPG (by .01, but it's still more) and MJ averaged over 4 points more per game than LBJ has. This is in Jordan's 13 seasons with the Bulls and LBJ first 12 seasons in the league.

Jordan was a great defender in his career.

To think that Jordan wouldn't stand a chance is ridiculous. Jordan in today's game during his prime would average 35 year after year.

I'm still waiting for ManRam to tell me what his "modern era" consists of?

sager729
05-25-2015, 04:33 AM
You act like Jordan didn't help his teammates at all. His presence alone on the offensive end was helping his team, and you act like Jordan averaged like 2 APG when he is up at 5.4. Jordan averaged less than 1 rebound per game compared to LBJ, Jordan averaged more SPG and BPG (by .01, but it's still more) and MJ averaged over 4 points more per game than LBJ has. This is in Jordan's 13 seasons with the Bulls and LBJ first 12 seasons in the league.

Jordan was a great defender in his career.

To think that Jordan wouldn't stand a chance is ridiculous. Jordan in today's game during his prime would average 35 year after year.

I'm still waiting for ManRam to tell me what his "modern era" consists of?

And I say all this being a big LeBron fan, love his game and he always has a shot in a series. This isn't the '07 Cavs he has here. You could say that JR, Shumpert and TT are better than any player on that team from '07.

AllBall
05-25-2015, 10:23 AM
And I say all this being a big LeBron fan, love his game and he always has a shot in a series. This isn't the '07 Cavs he has here. You could say that JR, Shumpert and TT are better than any player on that team from '07.

They aren't better, it's a weaker East.

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 10:29 AM
Lebron. As much as I do not like him. Makes the Cavs pretty even vs gsw imo. So yes. Prime Jordan would at least make them even favorites.

Not sure cavs are equal to warriors. Warriors currently have the second best post season point differential in history. Add that to the fact that the warriors starters are playing the least minutes- oh yeah and the warriors have had to go through the west (as oppose to the east).

Lebron will be tough for the warriors to deal with- but the cavs will have about a half dozen big problems with the warriors

likemystylez
05-25-2015, 10:36 AM
Doubt it. The warriors are a shooting team at heart though, powered by the long balls of their star guards. It's entirely possible that they go cold for an entire series, improbable but possible. Even still, they're great defensively it would be tough to beat them without a team effort.

its about as likely as lebron james tearing his acl in the first play of game 1, or the cavs plane getting into a plane crash on the way to the bay area.

The argument against warriors because they are a jump shooting team is getting tired.

1) Warriors are the most efficient team in the post season, it isnt even that close.

2) Traditional jump shooting teams dont usually have 2 all nba defensive players (3 if you count iggy who was all nba 1st team last yr as a starter)

3) Warriors lead the league in assists (again by a wide margin)- they can create good scoring opportunities


I think a lot of people who just watch the espn highlights and see steph and klay shooting- assume there is nothing more to this warriors team than good shooting. Additionally- the jump shooting team label works better when you are talking about streaky shooters. Curry might be the most consistently great shooter in history

jerellh528
05-25-2015, 11:33 AM
its about as likely as lebron james tearing his acl in the first play of game 1, or the cavs plane getting into a plane crash on the way to the bay area.

The argument against warriors because they are a jump shooting team is getting tired.

1) Warriors are the most efficient team in the post season, it isnt even that close.

2) Traditional jump shooting teams dont usually have 2 all nba defensive players (3 if you count iggy who was all nba 1st team last yr as a starter)

3) Warriors lead the league in assists (again by a wide margin)- they can create good scoring opportunities


I think a lot of people who just watch the espn highlights and see steph and klay shooting- assume there is nothing more to this warriors team than good shooting. Additionally- the jump shooting team label works better when you are talking about streaky shooters. Curry might be the most consistently great shooter in history

The eff are you talking about? Nobody is arguing against your team, stop being so damn insecure. Plus if you don't think shooting is what make gs go, then you're delusional.

superwill
05-25-2015, 12:02 PM
People are so disrespectful towards Mike I mean damn they act as if Mike didn't know how to play basketball SMMFH

superwill
05-25-2015, 12:08 PM
I wish Mike could be young again people forgotten just how great he was his willpower was unmatched know one out worked him know one

bucketss
05-25-2015, 12:09 PM
it would be fun watching curry pop treys in mj's face.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 12:18 PM
Be pretty tough for MJ with such little help. Kobe would have a shot because of his scoring prowess.

koreancabbage
05-25-2015, 12:55 PM
Be pretty tough for MJ with such little help. Kobe would have a shot because of his scoring prowess.

what? lol Jordan is WAYYYY better than Kobe in terms of scoring prowress and being efficient at it. The times kobe would shoot an ill advised shot, Jordan would have passed it to a teammate with a better look.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 01:21 PM
what? lol Jordan is WAYYYY better than Kobe in terms of scoring prowress and being efficient at it. The times kobe would shoot an ill advised shot, Jordan would have passed it to a teammate with a better look.

Jordan scored 81 points in a game? No wait that was Kobe. #caseclosed

Tony_Starks
05-25-2015, 01:26 PM
No because the team isn't built to MJs strengths, its built specially to compliment Lebrons game....

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 01:33 PM
No because the team isn't built to MJs strengths, its built specially to compliment Lebrons game....

Kobe's passing and scoring prowess would also work well on the Cavs.

Tony_Starks
05-25-2015, 01:52 PM
No because the team isn't built to MJs strengths, its built specially to compliment Lebrons game....

Kobe's passing and scoring prowess would also work well on the Cavs.

Kobe would put up crazy numbers and keep them competitive but they don't have the post player to go with his game....

SLY WILLIAMS
05-25-2015, 02:01 PM
As much as I like Curry if a prime MJ decided to shut him down, Curry would have a much harder time scoring than he ever has in the NBA. I sometimes think people forget about how great a defensive player Jordan was in his prime.

lol, please
05-25-2015, 02:07 PM
Lebron. As much as I do not like him. Makes the Cavs pretty even vs gsw imo. So yes. Prime Jordan would at least make them even favorites.

This warriors team is arguably better than the best Bulls teams in history.

nycericanguy
05-25-2015, 02:08 PM
Jordan scored 81 points in a game? No wait that was Kobe. #caseclosed

lol ok so 1 game defines a better scorer now?

Kobe is nowhere near the scorer that MJ was, stop it... MJ shot 50% for his CAREER... Kobe hasn't even done that ONCE...lol

Kobe's best scoring season 35.4ppg on 27.2 shots... MJ - 37.1ppg on 27.8 FGA in fewer MPG

MJ had NINE seasons of 30+ppg, Kobe only 3 despite playing more years

As for OP question... I think he'd have a shot... he would play 45mpg and he'd probably try to shut down Curry.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 02:15 PM
lol ok so 1 game defines a better scorer now?

Kobe is nowhere near the scorer that MJ was, stop it... MJ shot 50% for his CAREER... Kobe hasn't even done that ONCE...lol

Kobe's best scoring season 35.4ppg on 27.2 shots... MJ - 37.1ppg on 27.8 FGA in fewer MPG

MJ had NINE seasons of 30+ppg, Kobe only 3 despite playing more years

As for OP question... I think he'd have a shot... he would play 45mpg and he'd probably try to shut down Curry.

You actually believed that post? :rolleyes: Looking forward to hearing your response in the Harden-Melo real discussion in the other thread.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 02:16 PM
As much as I like Curry if a prime MJ decided to shut him down, Curry would have a much harder time scoring than he ever has in the NBA. I sometimes think people forget about how great a defensive player Jordan was in his prime.

Sly where do you see people forgetting Jordan? His name was littered throughout the best perimeter defenders thread.

SLY WILLIAMS
05-25-2015, 02:25 PM
Sly where do you see people forgetting Jordan? His name was littered throughout the best perimeter defenders thread.

In this thread I see very few posters discussing how Curry would play once Jordan draped him like a blanket. I remember Jordan doing that to a few pretty big name guards that were stars. Is GS the same team if Curry scores 17-19ppg with turnovers instead of 30ppg?

Teeboy1487
05-25-2015, 02:28 PM
Possibly. No way in hell Thompson and current Iggy can check Michael freakin Jordan. He would dominate the series. A prime Kobe may make it interesting as well.

lol, please
05-25-2015, 03:03 PM
Possibly. No way in hell Thompson and current Iggy can check Michael freakin Jordan. He would dominate the series. A prime Kobe may make it interesting as well.
Klay would lock him down.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 03:06 PM
In this thread I see very few posters discussing how Curry would play once Jordan draped him like a blanket. I remember Jordan doing that to a few pretty big name guards that were stars. Is GS the same team if Curry scores 17-19ppg with turnovers instead of 30ppg?

Fair enough. Do you think Jordan is the ideal defender to slow down Curry?

bucketss
05-25-2015, 03:10 PM
Klay would lock him down.

haha what?

Saddletramp
05-25-2015, 03:12 PM
Klay would lock him down.

If Klay can't lock down Harden, no way he could lock down Jordan.

Oh, it's you. No wonder.

AllBall
05-25-2015, 03:29 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

SF8
05-25-2015, 03:37 PM
If Klay can't lock down Harden, no way he could lock down Jordan.

Oh, it's you. No wonder.

I don't think he was serious.

Tony_Starks
05-25-2015, 03:41 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

Nah man revisionist history says MJ did it all singlehandedly. Similar to if Lebron wins all this year it will be singlehandedly....

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 04:05 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

Nah man revisionist history says MJ did it all singlehandedly. Similar to if Lebron wins all this year it will be singlehandedly....

Do you disagree with the latter?

SLY WILLIAMS
05-25-2015, 04:08 PM
Fair enough. Do you think Jordan is the ideal defender to slow down Curry?

Ideal? I'm not sure I can say that with absolute certainty but MJ's combination of hoops IQ, speed, strength, leaping, & anticipation would definitely be something Curry would have to work through. I remember a few times where MJ would physically body some big name PGs. They did not like it much. In most series Curry is the leading scorer. If he went head to head with MJ that would not be the case. MJ's competitiveness would really make things difficult for Curry. That is not to say that Curry would not have success. It just means he would have to work a lot harder for it and that it would be reduced. Jordan could be around 30PPG-35PPG going against GS while Currys average if guarded by MJ could drop below 20ppg. That does not mean that Curry is not a great player in his own right. Its just that MJ's competitiveness level was insane.

Tony_Starks
05-25-2015, 04:18 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

Nah man revisionist history says MJ did it all singlehandedly. Similar to if Lebron wins all this year it will be singlehandedly....

Do you disagree with the latter?

Completely disagree with the latter, unless the NBA allows a new rule that let's you play 1 against 5....

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:11 PM
Fair enough. Do you think Jordan is the ideal defender to slow down Curry?

Ideal? I'm not sure I can say that with absolute certainty but MJ's combination of hoops IQ, speed, strength, leaping, & anticipation would definitely be something Curry would have to work through. I remember a few times where MJ would physically body some big name PGs. They did not like it much. In most series Curry is the leading scorer. If he went head to head with MJ that would not be the case. MJ's competitiveness would really make things difficult for Curry. That is not to say that Curry would not have success. It just means he would have to work a lot harder for it and that it would be reduced. Jordan could be around 30PPG-35PPG going against GS while Currys average if guarded by MJ could drop below 20ppg. That does not mean that Curry is not a great player in his own right. Its just that MJ's competitiveness level was insane.

You don't think Draymond Green, Klay Thompson, Andre Iguodala, and Harrison Barnes with Andrew Bogut would slow him down at all?

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:12 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

Nah man revisionist history says MJ did it all singlehandedly. Similar to if Lebron wins all this year it will be singlehandedly....

Do you disagree with the latter?

Completely disagree with the latter, unless the NBA allows a new rule that let's you play 1 against 5....

But when one player is so clearly instrumental in the team's success and has to play so many roles you refuse to call that singlehandedly?

Phantom Dreamer
05-25-2015, 06:21 PM
what? lol Jordan is WAYYYY better than Kobe in terms of scoring prowress and being efficient at it. The times kobe would shoot an ill advised shot, Jordan would have passed it to a teammate with a better look.

Jordan scored 81 points in a game? No wait that was Kobe. #caseclosedJordan played 179 career playoff games and scored fewer than 20 just 5 times.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:23 PM
what? lol Jordan is WAYYYY better than Kobe in terms of scoring prowress and being efficient at it. The times kobe would shoot an ill advised shot, Jordan would have passed it to a teammate with a better look.

Jordan scored 81 points in a game? No wait that was Kobe. #caseclosedJordan played 179 career playoff games and scored fewer than 20 just 5 times.

But no 81 point games. #scoringprowess. #trueleader

Tony_Starks
05-25-2015, 06:50 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

Nah man revisionist history says MJ did it all singlehandedly. Similar to if Lebron wins all this year it will be singlehandedly....

Do you disagree with the latter?

Completely disagree with the latter, unless the NBA allows a new rule that let's you play 1 against 5....

But when one player is so clearly instrumental in the team's success and has to play so many roles you refuse to call that singlehandedly?

I sure do because when he loses his fans will be quick to say "he lost because he can't do it all himself, it's a team game!" You can't push that and then if he wins say "he did it all himself, he's the greatest ever!" Can't have it both ways.

That's always the biggest complaint on Lebron apologist is that they give him minimum blame for losses and maximum credit for the wins.

KnicksorBust
05-25-2015, 06:53 PM
Threads like these are really disrespectful to:

-The 90s Eastern Conference
-Phil Jackson
-Scottie Pippen
-Dennis Rodman

Nah man revisionist history says MJ did it all singlehandedly. Similar to if Lebron wins all this year it will be singlehandedly....

Do you disagree with the latter?

Completely disagree with the latter, unless the NBA allows a new rule that let's you play 1 against 5....

But when one player is so clearly instrumental in the team's success and has to play so many roles you refuse to call that singlehandedly?

I sure do because when he loses his fans will be quick to say "he lost because he can't do it all himself, it's a team game!" You can't push that and then if he wins say "he did it all himself, he's the greatest ever!" Can't have it both ways.

That's always the biggest complaint on Lebron apologist is that they give him minimum blame for losses and maximum credit for the wins.

But won't the way he plays impact it or will you just look at the outcome?

Scoots
05-25-2015, 06:58 PM
Jordan era rules or this era rules? With this eras rules I don't think Jordan could do it ... with Jordan's era rules I'm fairly sure he would destroy the Warriors.

JordansBulls
05-25-2015, 08:54 PM
Considering how Jordan plays in the finals in the first 3 peat most definitely. Not to mention the Warriors don't have that inside presence either, so not like they have a dominant big.

slashsnake
05-25-2015, 09:46 PM
I sure do because when he loses his fans will be quick to say "he lost because he can't do it all himself, it's a team game!" You can't push that and then if he wins say "he did it all himself, he's the greatest ever!" Can't have it both ways.

That's always the biggest complaint on Lebron apologist is that they give him minimum blame for losses and maximum credit for the wins.

Because usually in his losses he's still the best player in the game, and you can point to about a half dozen other reasons why they lost first. And when he wins, he's the best player in the game and you can point to him first.

It is a team game. Seriously, how many wins in the East do you think that roster that played last night wins in a year without Lebron? 15? 20? Of course he impacts the game hugely, Ray Charles could watch the game and see that. And if they did manage to win, you bet he'd be the #1, #2, and #3 reason why.

If they lost last night, Lebron should be the one blamed? He's the leading point scorer between either team, the leading rebounder, the leading passer, the leader in steals, the leading guy at getting to the line.

Yeah, if the Heat won the title last year, that would have been due heavily to Lebron. They lost it. Was that because of Lebron's 27-8-4 and shooting 57%? Of course not. He could have played better, but he was the best guy on the court. You want bigger reasons, there's quite a few you can look at before you get to him.

It isn't being a "Lebron apologist". There's times I've said Kobe lost because his team sucked and not him. There's been times I've said Jordan is the best player in the game, but his team wasn't nearly as talented or well coached as the Pistons. It's not apologizing, it's just a fact.

flea
05-25-2015, 09:49 PM
Sorry slash, but if you think Lebron was the best player on the court in the 2014 Finals then you are a Lebron apologist or you didn't actually watch the games. Worst beatdown in NBA Finals history - this wasn't Jerry West going off in a 7 game squeaker. It was a guy taking shootaround practice because the game was over early in the 2nd quarter.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-25-2015, 10:10 PM
Kobe or Jordan wouldnt stand a chance... Lebron actually has more of a chance because he is the better all around player and would get the most out of this supporting cast where is Lebron and Kobe could shoot their teams into the game all day... But neither of those guys could have a horrid shooting night and have the game James just did sorry... Even when james has a game that people consider an off game he did what he just did while injured... That game was historic... A Prime Lebron fully healthy would be the only player outside of magic that could have a shot against this warriors team with this cavs team.

:laugh2:

More-Than-Most
05-25-2015, 10:11 PM
Sorry slash, but if you think Lebron was the best player on the court in the 2014 Finals then you are a Lebron apologist or you didn't actually watch the games. Worst beatdown in NBA Finals history - this wasn't Jerry West going off in a 7 game squeaker. It was a guy taking shootaround practice because the game was over early in the 2nd quarter.

Let me ask you... What did wade or Bosh do at all in the playoffs last year and who was better than James?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-25-2015, 10:12 PM
I honestly can't believe how delusional Lebron fans are. Grade A comedy

Bostonjorge
05-25-2015, 10:19 PM
I think flash bolt wants to taste James.

flea
05-25-2015, 10:20 PM
Let me ask you... What did wade or Bosh do at all in the playoffs last year and who was better than James?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2014.html

There's what Lebron's team did in case you forgot. Lebron wasn't better than Duncan, Leonard, Ginobili, Parker, and probably Green or Diaw in the Finals (neither were scoring forces but Green was a better defender by miles and Diaw was an excellent playmaker). His team was soundly beaten - the worst in Finals history. That's kind of what happens in those sort of beatdowns, the whole team outplays you. The FMVP was Lebron's check, a guy without much in the way of an offensive game outside of spot-up shooting and putbacks until then.

FlashBolt
05-25-2015, 10:27 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2014.html

There's what Lebron's team did in case you forgot. Lebron wasn't better than Duncan, Leonard, Ginobili, Parker, and probably Green or Diaw in the Finals (neither were scoring forces but Green was a better defender by miles and Diaw was an excellent playmaker). His team was soundly beaten - the worst in Finals history. That's kind of what happens in those sort of beatdowns, the whole team outplays you. The FMVP was Lebron's check, a guy without much in the way of an offensive game outside of spot-up shooting and putbacks until then.

Except, his team was the one who got whooped.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2014_finals.html

Pop said it himself.. he couldn't stop Bron so he said he wanted his team to stop his teammates. The fact you think Ginobili was better than James is laughable. You're so bad at this that you're actually resembling a troll.

bucketss
05-25-2015, 10:29 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2014.html

There's what Lebron's team did in case you forgot. Lebron wasn't better than Duncan, Leonard, Ginobili, Parker, and probably Green or Diaw in the Finals (neither were scoring forces but Green was a better defender by miles and Diaw was an excellent playmaker). His team was soundly beaten - the worst in Finals history. That's kind of what happens in those sort of beatdowns, the whole team outplays you. The FMVP was Lebron's check, a guy without much in the way of an offensive game outside of spot-up shooting and putbacks until then.

28 8 rebs 4 ast on 57% and all those players outperformed him? you lose credibility with every post.

FlashBolt
05-25-2015, 10:34 PM
28 8 rebs 4 ast on 57% and all those players outperformed him? you lose credibility with every post.

He's already exposed himself as a troll. He honestly thinks Gino was better than James.. So if Gino was better than James, does that mean the Spurs had six LeBron James? LOL, his logic never fails to disappoint me.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-25-2015, 10:38 PM
I think flash bolt wants to taste James.

:laugh2:

flea
05-25-2015, 10:42 PM
28 8 rebs 4 ast on 57% and all those players outperformed him? you lose credibility with every post.

So what you're saying is you didn't actually watch the series, then? 3 were total blowouts, another was an easy win, and the Heat took 1 game in a close one. Lebron's offense was heavily reliant on high p&r with Lebron/Bosh and the Spurs just played off it. Sure he hit open 2 pointers and 3 pointers when his team was down 15-20 - that's how the Spurs played him. Great for him, it didn't matter at all to the outcome of games. He was the best player in the game in 2014, he was not the best player in the 2014 Finals (not by a longshot). Awful defensively and a total non-factor offensively because he couldn't get into the paint.

flea
05-25-2015, 10:50 PM
FWIW I think Lebron played better in the 07 Finals beatdown against the Spurs than he did in the 14 Finals. FG% wasn't as good but at least he was a factor in the game. Both Spurs teams were very good, no doubt, and were better than any team Lebron's ever been on. But you can't always look at raw FG% - especially in a short series where your team suffers the absolute worst defeat in NBA Finals history.

slashsnake
05-25-2015, 10:57 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2014.html

There's what Lebron's team did in case you forgot. Lebron wasn't better than Duncan, Leonard, Ginobili, Parker, and probably Green or Diaw in the Finals (neither were scoring forces but Green was a better defender by miles and Diaw was an excellent playmaker). His team was soundly beaten - the worst in Finals history. That's kind of what happens in those sort of beatdowns, the whole team outplays you. The FMVP was Lebron's check, a guy without much in the way of an offensive game outside of spot-up shooting and putbacks until then.

That's pretty awful.

His team was soundly beaten. They lost by 18 in a game Lebron outscored Kawhi by 9. That means for San Antonio, the rest of their team scored 27 more points than the rest of Lebron's teammates. Another game his teammates scored 28 points more than Lebrons team. Another game his team scored 37 more points than Lebrons teammates. Another they scored 31 points more than Lebron's teammates. Another they scored 24 points more than Lebrons teammates.



Are you really honestly standing there and saying Kawhi being outscored by Lebron by about 10 points a game, outrebounded, out passed, etc. is how he was better? He averaged what? A board less and a point more than his regular season averages?

What would Lebron have had to do? Kawhi's teammates were giving him a 25-30 point a game advantage, over Lebron's Heat.

Come on. I can't believe you are really buying that sensibly.

bucketss
05-25-2015, 11:02 PM
So what you're saying is you didn't actually watch the series, then? 3 were total blowouts, another was an easy win, and the Heat took 1 game in a close one. Lebron's offense was heavily reliant on high p&r with Lebron/Bosh and the Spurs just played off it. Sure he hit open 2 pointers and 3 pointers when his team was down 15-20 - that's how the Spurs played him. Great for him, it didn't matter at all to the outcome of games. He was the best player in the game in 2014, he was not the best player in the 2014 Finals (not by a longshot). Awful defensively and a total non-factor offensively because he couldn't get into the paint.

so because the spurs dominated the heat as a team, guys like danny green who scored 9 points a game, was better than lebron?

flea
05-25-2015, 11:05 PM
You guys put way too much stock into PPG. Lebron's offenses have always relied on his slashing ability - because that's what he does. He can't play with guys who pack the paint and he can't play very well with other ball-dominant players. So he's going to score 25 PPG in a series pretty much one way or the other.

Leonard has no plays called for him ever and goes on to shred Lebron's pitiful defense. Then, he turns Lebron over and forces him to do exacly what the defense wants (shoot from outside the paint). But somehow we should give Lebron brownie points for making wide-open J's in a game that is no longer competitive, in large part because he can't run his offense and he has played terrible defense? Please. You have to be a Lebron homer or a purely box score watcher to think Lebron was anything close to the best player in the series.

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 12:50 AM
You guys put way too much stock into PPG. Lebron's offenses have always relied on his slashing ability - because that's what he does. He can't play with guys who pack the paint and he can't play very well with other ball-dominant players. So he's going to score 25 PPG in a series pretty much one way or the other.

Leonard has no plays called for him ever and goes on to shred Lebron's pitiful defense. Then, he turns Lebron over and forces him to do exacly what the defense wants (shoot from outside the paint). But somehow we should give Lebron brownie points for making wide-open J's in a game that is no longer competitive, in large part because he can't run his offense and he has played terrible defense? Please. You have to be a Lebron homer or a purely box score watcher to think Lebron was anything close to the best player in the series.

Shred... for 17 a game lol. come on now.. And Lebron can't play well with a ball dominant player. WHAT THE HECK IS DWYANE WADE? Wasn't he top 5 in time with the ball in his hand the year before Lebron showed up? Didn't Lebron go to 4 straight finals and win back to back MVP's and Finals MVP's with Wade?

And wow.. he Forced Lebron into what? 57% from the field? AMAZING.

And what Game was Lebron throwing up shots in garbage time???

He scored


Once in the 4th quarter of game 1
twice in the final 16 minutes of game 3.
1 time in the final 15 minutes of game 4.
Once in the final 10 minutes of game 5

What about the hitting J part...

In game 1 he hit 3's and at the rim. 2 shots, from 8 and 12 feet he made.
Game 3 he shot one from 8' to open the game, Of his next 11 non-3pt shots, 10 were inside 5 feet from the rim.
Game 4, he started with some midrange and hit a 9' and 12' shot in that one, but in the "no longer competitive part... Average 2nd half shot was from 2.3 feet from the rim.
Game 5... he made one 2 pt shot more than 7 foot from the rim. His first 6 shots were all within 2 feet of the rim as well in that game.

The only game he scored late with the midrange in was the competitive one, game 2 where he had 5 midrange makes, more than the entire rest of the series.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way Flea. To be honest he almost entirely scored at the rim or from 3. Including the 3 I count 37% of his shot attempts outside of 10 foot from the basket (not including ones he was fouled on so this is likely closer to 30%). So that puts him between Tim Duncan and Blake Griffin at taking a large number of midrange and 3pt shots. Or basically about 15% fewer midrange and 3pt shots than Lebron's career average. So the spurs D of "forcing them to do exactly what the defense wants" in your case means letting Lebron get 15% more of his shots at the bucket?


Look obviously if you are saying those things, either:

A. You didn't watch the series. Because those numbers were what happened in the games.

or

B. You really really want to make a point so badly you don't care if you sit there and just lie about what actually happened in the game to make your point and hope nobody looks at the reality of it.

Either way when you have to sit there and create lies to back up your story, it really ruins any real point you may have been making and puts you out there as purely a Lebron hater no matter what.

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 12:55 AM
By the way I only looked that up because I was thinking I was losing my mind. I was thinking to myself, "I thought for sure he was shutting it down nearly every 4th quarter, and only living either in the paint, at the line, or out there taking some 3's.

Just had to make sure that I was remembering what happened. And that appears to be so.

Bostonjorge
05-26-2015, 01:01 AM
I guess you don't need a prime Jordan just a harden to beat the Warriors.

lol, please
05-26-2015, 01:06 AM
I guess you don't need a prime Jordan just a harden to beat the Warriors.
Jordan and Harden both need the kyyptonite of the Warriors: the refs

jerellh528
05-26-2015, 01:40 AM
I guess you don't need a prime Jordan just a harden to beat the Warriors.

Funny thing is harden is getting about the same if not less support/production from his cast than Lebron in these playoffs lol.

flea
05-26-2015, 01:53 AM
Shred... for 17 a game lol. come on now.. And Lebron can't play well with a ball dominant player. WHAT THE HECK IS DWYANE WADE? Wasn't he top 5 in time with the ball in his hand the year before Lebron showed up? Didn't Lebron go to 4 straight finals and win back to back MVP's and Finals MVP's with Wade?

17 a game on like 60% for a guy who doesn't have a single play called for him is pretty terrible. And yeah, Lebron struggles with ball-dominant players because he's a 6'8 PG. He struggled when the Heat first got together, lost the Finals handily and figured it out. Know why? They had the most talent on their team in the league and it wasn't close. He's shooting like 14% lower FG% this playoffs because he's playing next to 2 true post players a lot AKA a clogged paint. He's not a crafty finisher like Wade or Michael, he's more a straight line-drive and dish guy.



Either way when you have to sit there and create lies to back up your story, it really ruins any real point you may have been making and puts you out there as purely a Lebron hater no matter what.

Look bro, you can parse every possession you want of those Finals. He was completely outclassed. It wasn't just his teammates, it was all of them. He had the most talented team in the league and they got their butts handed to them on a nice big platter.

For posterity, here is his entire shot chart for the Finals series. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=jamesle01&year_id=2014&is_playoffs=1&opp_id=SAS) It's telling that when the game was within 6-10 points he took very few shots, the rest coming in blowout chances. He chucked a ton of open 3s (30% of his total shot attempts vs. 23% in the regular season) and he was completely ineffectual everywhere else. Even at the rim he shot below his season percentage (that's what the Spurs D does, go look at their team stats over the years for Tim Duncan, crappy % at the rim and a ton of shots in the 3-10 area). Did he score points? Sure, but it had no bearing on the series.

Hilarious to me that he can join his superteam but when the 5-out drive and dish style doesn't work it's everyone else's fault but his. No his teammates didn't carry him, but this was the series he was supposed to carry them. Instead, the entire basis of their offense was neutralized because of how piss-poor their defense was. Lebron was allegedly a DPOY candidate, you'd think he could do something about that - or at the very least hold his own man to his season average. Instead the whole team shat the bed while he made 52% of his open 3s in garbage time. Big, long, slow clap.

slashsnake
05-26-2015, 02:32 AM
17 a game on like 60% for a guy who doesn't have a single play called for him is pretty terrible. And yeah, Lebron struggles with ball-dominant players because he's a 6'8 PG. He struggled when the Heat first got together, lost the Finals handily and figured it out. Know why? They had the most talent on their team in the league and it wasn't close. He's shooting like 14% lower FG% this playoffs because he's playing next to 2 true post players a lot AKA a clogged paint. He's not a crafty finisher like Wade or Michael, he's more a straight line-drive and dish guy.




Look bro, you can parse every possession you want of those Finals. He was completely outclassed. It wasn't just his teammates, it was all of them. He had the most talented team in the league and they got their butts handed to them on a nice big platter.

For posterity, here is his entire shot chart for the Finals series. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=jamesle01&year_id=2014&is_playoffs=1&opp_id=SAS) It's telling that when the game was within 6-10 points he took very few shots, the rest coming in blowout chances. He chucked a ton of open 3s (30% of his total shot attempts vs. 23% in the regular season) and he was completely ineffectual everywhere else. Even at the rim he shot below his season percentage (that's what the Spurs D does, go look at their team stats over the years for Tim Duncan, crappy % at the rim and a ton of shots in the 3-10 area). Did he score points? Sure, but it had no bearing on the series.

Hilarious to me that he can join his superteam but when the 5-out drive and dish style doesn't work it's everyone else's fault but his. No his teammates didn't carry him, but this was the series he was supposed to carry them. Instead, the entire basis of their offense was neutralized because of how piss-poor their defense was. Lebron was allegedly a DPOY candidate, you'd think he could do something about that - or at the very least hold his own man to his season average. Instead the whole team shat the bed while he made 52% of his open 3s in garbage time. Big, long, slow clap.

What do you mean they don't call plays for him? He runs off screens and his usage rate (% of times he was on the floor that team ran plays for him) was 19%. If you are curious what that is, think Chandler Parsons. Definitely being used in the offense of course. These things you say just aren't remotely based in fact are they? You just make stuff up and pretend it to be true... IT DOESN"T WORK THAT WAY!

Thanks for the shot chart, you know it is clickable so you can sort by situation too (Whoops, shouldn't have used that should you? lol)

Here's his for when the game was 10+ points away.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=jamesle01&year_id=2014&is_playoffs=1&opp_id=SAS&margin=11-99

Yeah 1-4 from the midrange. 14-16 from inside 10 feet. Tearing it up on those midrange shots when the game is out of hand. He had 2 points in that entire series doing that. Even including his 3's that puts him at 6-17 with 17 points from the outside when the game was out of hand. But you said But somehow we should give Lebron brownie points for making wide-open J's in a game that is no longer competitive, Hmm, he made 1.2 shots a game in those situations. That's just dominant isn't it. Flea... just admit that you didn't remember really what happened. The longer you dig in on this and the more proof you give me that you are just flat out lying the less believable that is.

Lol, shouldn't have put that shot chart up there, but thanks for proving my point for me.


And within 5 points

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shooting.cgi?player_id=jamesle01&year_id=2014&is_playoffs=1&opp_id=SAS&margin=0-5

6-13 from midrange. Another 5-8 from 3 makes him 11-21 with 27 points there. A LOT better... But you said it was in the time that the game was "no longer competitive".. But the facts say ummm, not at all.



And of course his scoring had no bearing on the series. The Spurs teammates were outscoring his teammates by 30! He had to outscore Kawhi by 30 just to make a game of it. Every position favored the Spurs but one.

And you are saying all you need to know. The spurs funneled him to Duncan, they pushed him out with Kawai, they did this and that, multiple players multiple angles, and he scored 28 a game on 57% shooting. You want to see dropping FG percentages look at the guys the Spurs weren't focusing on. See Wade, see Birdman, see Allen, see Chalmers.

That heat team minus Lebron averaged 77 a game in the regular season... 63 a game in that series.

The team that averaged 30 boards besides lebron in the regular season averaged 24 in that series.

The team that averaged besides Lebron 16 assists a game, averaged 11 in that series.

The team that averaged 7.5 steals a game besides Lebron averaged 6 in that series.

The team that besides lebron averaged over 4 blocks averaged under 2.

The team that without Lebron shot 53% from 2 shot 45% from there.

Lebrons numbers went up in most of those categories, the team dropped off big time.

You can't have your team, the rest of your teammates play a LOT worse in every single way and expect to win or come close. You can't be awful in every single facet of the game for all your players but 1 and be competitive. And yes those numbers are awful.

And again you say he made 52% of his 3's in garbage time... But.. you forgot we can click on garbage time and see if that's true, or if you are just blowing smoke out your backside... And when down by 10 points, he made... 38% of his 3's. vs. 64% when the game was closer. Hmmm, I'd give you a big long slow clap but you have a tough time putting out something truthful here don't you.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 03:12 AM
No way Jordan takes these Cavs to the Finals LMAO! You couldn't put any star from any era (outside of Lebron) on this Cavs team and make the NBA finals. Lebron is the ultimate team player, he raises everyones game up and knows exactly how to maximize each players strengths to win basketball games.
Jordan was a scorer, sure he had some memorable success with steals and other great plays to help his team win games but the Bulls relied on Michael like how the Lakers relied on Kobe to win and thats isolation ball and watch him tear apart the teams opposing defenses.
Lebron is different! his game is predicated on IQ and timing, it's like he knows exactly how to beat you because he's already dictating the flow of the game, as opposed to Jordan or Kobe who just have so much skill and confidence that they will just beat you on pure skill alone and adapt to the flow of the game whatever it may be.
Michael Jordan couldn't win until the Bulls acquired some much needed help around him (including a new coach) and Michael himself changing up parts of his game. Lebron won with nearly every type of Cavs roster they built around him and for those of you who followed the Cavs since Lebron came to town, you already know how many different line ups he's had to play with and still won.

Saddletramp
05-26-2015, 03:28 AM
slashsnake eatin' up a flea in here. Also, did Flea really say that the Heat were the most talented team in the league last year? Almost that same team plus Deng, a half season of Whiteside playing nuts and Dragic replacing Bosh when he got injured couldn't even make the playoffs this year. So either Flea is wrong or the talent that put them over the top was LeBron. But that would mean LeBron is just that good to carry that team to the Finals three straight years? Stop embarrassing yourself, Flea.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2015, 03:33 AM
Someone up there sounds like they really do believe everything they say about Kawhi Leonard being better than Lebron James in that series...Kawhi didnt outplay Lebron, it was the Spurs who outplayed the Heat, to shrink it down to size and compare Leonard to Lebron is not very smart because it don't take statistics to convince me that Lebron James is 20x better than Kawhi Leonard any day of the week...you nitpicking at stats won't convice too much people, it only makes you look like a major hater.


Honestly? who in the world thinks Kawhi Leonard is better than Lebron James? not even Kawhi's mother would think that hahahahaha!

Master Mind
05-26-2015, 03:33 AM
With no Kyrie no Jordan wouldn't beat this Warriors team. With Kyrie, yes Mj could.

But I also think OKC with a healthy KD, would beat this warriors team in 6 games.


Kyrie & Curry are going to destroy each other in the Final's; should be flashy.

:confused: Huh?

Have you watched MJ in his prime? Btw MJ never had a Kyrie type, why would he need his type now?

Saddletramp
05-26-2015, 03:34 AM
I guess you don't need a prime Jordan just a harden to beat the Warriors.

Harden plays great in Oakland in game 1: Have a chance to win if Smith doesn't fumble the ball away.
Harden plays great in Oakland in Game 2: Have a chance to win at the buzzer.
Harden plays like garbage Game 3: Warriors beat down.
Harden plays great in Game 4: Houston wins by double digits.


Stack his team up similarly, this is a different series. And people say he's not the most valuable to his team.

Master Mind
05-26-2015, 03:35 AM
No way Jordan takes these Cavs to the Finals LMAO! You couldn't put any star from any era (outside of Lebron) on this Cavs team and make the NBA finals. Lebron is the ultimate team player, he raises everyones game up and knows exactly how to maximize each players strengths to win basketball games.
Jordan was a scorer, sure he had some memorable success with steals and other great plays to help his team win games but the Bulls relied on Michael like how the Lakers relied on Kobe to win and thats isolation ball and watch him tear apart the teams opposing defenses.
Lebron is different! his game is predicated on IQ and timing, it's like he knows exactly how to beat you because he's already dictating the flow of the game, as opposed to Jordan or Kobe who just have so much skill and confidence that they will just beat you on pure skill alone and adapt to the flow of the game whatever it may be.
Michael Jordan couldn't win until the Bulls acquired some much needed help around him (including a new coach) and Michael himself changing up parts of his game. Lebron won with nearly every type of Cavs roster they built around him and for those of you who followed the Cavs since Lebron came to town, you already know how many different line ups he's had to play with and still won.

:facepalm:

Master Mind
05-26-2015, 03:39 AM
Be pretty tough for MJ with such little help. Kobe would have a shot because of his scoring prowess.

Wait, what? :facepalm:

Master Mind
05-26-2015, 03:43 AM
The posts in here really reveal the age disparity. A crap load of you never saw prime MJ play, you just buy his shoes.

vics
05-26-2015, 07:42 AM
You guys put way too much stock into PPG. Lebron's offenses have always relied on his slashing ability - because that's what he does. He can't play with guys who pack the paint and he can't play very well with other ball-dominant players. So he's going to score 25 PPG in a series pretty much one way or the other.

Leonard has no plays called for him ever and goes on to shred Lebron's pitiful defense. Then, he turns Lebron over and forces him to do exacly what the defense wants (shoot from outside the paint). But somehow we should give Lebron brownie points for making wide-open J's in a game that is no longer competitive, in large part because he can't run his offense and he has played terrible defense? Please. You have to be a Lebron homer or a purely box score watcher to think Lebron was anything close to the best player in the series.

You sure about this bud? can you show me proof not hearsay.. if not your just dreaming.

vics
05-26-2015, 07:50 AM
The posts in here really reveal the age disparity. A crap load of you never saw prime MJ play, you just buy his shoes.

Well most of us saw him play, so what so super special about him, he had a stacked team. Ah.. ok the Sixers team or timber wolves team today with prime jordan would win the championship this year. Happy?

kdspurman
05-26-2015, 08:40 AM
Someone up there sounds like they really do believe everything they say about Kawhi Leonard being better than Lebron James in that series...Kawhi didnt outplay Lebron, it was the Spurs who outplayed the Heat, to shrink it down to size and compare Leonard to Lebron is not very smart because it don't take statistics to convince me that Lebron James is 20x better than Kawhi Leonard any day of the week...you nitpicking at stats won't convice too much people, it only makes you look like a major hater.


Honestly? who in the world thinks Kawhi Leonard is better than Lebron James? not even Kawhi's mother would think that hahahahaha!

No one thinks that of course, but Kawhi's impact on the finals was greater than Lebron's. I've watched that finals many times over, and there were times where Lebron wasn't even really noticed out there. He'd have a crazy good quarter, but then very little impact the other 3. Mainly in games 3-5

mightybosstone
05-26-2015, 08:51 AM
While I understand the thread and the reason for it, is this really the right time for it? Shouldn't this thread be posted after the Warriors beat the Cavs or at least have a substantial lead in the series? For all we know, Cleveland could find a way to win that series. And then this thread will have been completely pointless.

Timing is everything. And I'll hold off on my opinion until we actually see that series played.

ewing
05-26-2015, 09:59 AM
While I understand the thread and the reason for it, is this really the right time for it? Shouldn't this thread be posted after the Warriors beat the Cavs or at least have a substantial lead in the series? For all we know, Cleveland could find a way to win that series. And then this thread will have been completely pointless.

Timing is everything. And I'll hold off on my opinion until we actually see that series played.

i actually think it could be an interesting thread, if people actually tried to answer the question asked but that isn't even what the OP wanted. He wanted to backhandedly dis LeBron's supporting caste and set up a Micheal vs Bron debate.

flea
05-26-2015, 11:46 AM
What do you mean they don't call plays for him? He runs off screens and his usage rate (% of times he was on the floor that team ran plays for him) was 19%. If you are curious what that is, think Chandler Parsons. Definitely being used in the offense of course. These things you say just aren't remotely based in fact are they? You just make stuff up and pretend it to be true... IT DOESN"T WORK THAT WAY!

Pop said it multiple times throughout the year and after he won the FMVP, that's why it was sort of remarkable. Setting screens, spotting up in corners, and taking backcuts is not having a play run for you. They ran plays for him in the mid-post this year and it's the first time I've ever seen it (though I don't watch as many Spurs games as Spurs fans around here do, maybe they did it some in the regular season last year). But in the playoffs most of their action began with Parker/Duncan P&R, those down screens they always run for Parker to get a midrange shot, and Ginobili's by-the-seat-of-his-pants stuff. Then of course the inside-out look with Diaw/Duncan, which is really tough to guard with their ball movement. They look for easy opportunities in semi-transition but otherwise swing the ball to the weakside from there and see what happens.

USG% is based purely on shot attempts and assists, and the Spurs played with a ton of ball movement. So even Leonard's putbacks appear on USG%, that's not having a play run for you that's beating your check with hustle. Leonard's offensive game was very raw last year, and nearly half his attempts were 3 point attempts in the Finals. That's not him turning into Steph Curry, it's his man doing a piss-poor job of keeping up.


And again you say he made 52% of his 3's in garbage time... But.. you forgot we can click on garbage time and see if that's true, or if you are just blowing smoke out your backside... And when down by 10 points, he made... 38% of his 3's. vs. 64% when the game was closer. Hmmm, I'd give you a big long slow clap but you have a tough time putting out something truthful here don't you.

Super stoked you had fun with the shot finder, dude. We've discovered that Lebron did indeed score points in the Finals, and wasn't shut out. Considering he's the best player on his team and this is basketball and not football or baseball, that sure does mean a lot. Here are a couple (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/plus_minus_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=game&output=total&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=SAS&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts) more fun shot charts (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2014/) to show how truly un-impactful Lebron was. In basketball guys get their stats - the point of the game is to make it not matter in the end. 2 of the 3 games Lebron surpassed his season average for PPG were complete blowouts. The other was his fine effort in game 2. Game 1 he took 17 shots in a game that was fairly close until the end. Do you think Michael lets his team get outscored by 19 in the 4th quarter without just going and getting some points? Doubtful.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-26-2015, 04:09 PM
The posts in here really reveal the age disparity. A crap load of you never saw prime MJ play, you just buy his shoes.
I've been thinking the same thing lately

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-26-2015, 04:11 PM
The posts in here really reveal the age disparity. A crap load of you never saw prime MJ play, you just buy his shoes.

Well most of us saw him play, so what so super special about him, he had a stacked team. Ah.. ok the Sixers team or timber wolves team today with prime jordan would win the championship this year. Happy?

Ohhh nothing much, he's just considered the Goat by 95 percent of people who watch basketball:laugh2:. How delusional are you guys?

koreancabbage
05-26-2015, 04:28 PM
Well most of us saw him play, so what so super special about him, he had a stacked team. Ah.. ok the Sixers team or timber wolves team today with prime jordan would win the championship this year. Happy?

LOL. he is by far the GOAT. Jordan has Lebron's efficiency and all round game and Kobe's scoring prowress.

magic0320
05-26-2015, 05:05 PM
I love how people thinks lebron is top 3 if he wins. no he's not. He's great but even he wins this year he's top 10 at the most. I don't even put kobe in top 5 like alot of people. Only person I can't really say **** is jordan, magic, and bird.

FlashBolt
05-26-2015, 11:35 PM
You guys are giving Kawhi too much credit. It is easy to look good and better than you are when your team is playing great collectively. Example is J.R. Smith. He went from being a scrapyard piece to a huge part of the Cavs success. Kawhi did great but we saw how empty he was vs Clippers as well. Honestly, every single one of Kawhi's teammates destroyed LeBron's teammates. This wasn't a LeBron vs Spurs thing.. but LeBron was certainly the best player on that court. I always place another player of the same position and picture it from that angle. Does Kawhi on that Heat team come close to beating that Spurs team with Bron? Let's be real here. There's a huge difference when evaluating that.

Hawkeye15
05-26-2015, 11:41 PM
I've been thinking the same thing lately

how old are you?

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 12:05 AM
I love how people thinks lebron is top 3 if he wins. no he's not. He's great but even he wins this year he's top 10 at the most. I don't even put kobe in top 5 like alot of people. Only person I can't really say **** is jordan, magic, and bird.

And how is Magic/Bird any better than LeBron besides having their entire career stacked with HOF's practically the moment they joined? Lol, give me a break. Magic wouldn't be leading his team to jack without Kareem/Worthy and then Scott... Hell, Byron Scott would have been LeBron's best teammate before Wade came along.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2015, 12:10 AM
I love how people thinks lebron is top 3 if he wins. no he's not. He's great but even he wins this year he's top 10 at the most. I don't even put kobe in top 5 like alot of people. Only person I can't really say **** is jordan, magic, and bird.

lol yea he would easily be top 5... he is already top 10... Just stop. He just carried his team to the finals... Win or lose he is a top 10 player sorry and already ahead of Kobe... Winning wouldnt put him over MJ but keeping up his play for the next 4 years plus winning 2 more rings in my opinion would.

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 01:09 AM
Pop said it multiple times throughout the year and after he won the FMVP, that's why it was sort of remarkable. Setting screens, spotting up in corners, and taking backcuts is not having a play run for you. They ran plays for him in the mid-post this year and it's the first time I've ever seen it (though I don't watch as many Spurs games as Spurs fans around here do, maybe they did it some in the regular season last year). But in the playoffs most of their action began with Parker/Duncan P&R, those down screens they always run for Parker to get a midrange shot, and Ginobili's by-the-seat-of-his-pants stuff. Then of course the inside-out look with Diaw/Duncan, which is really tough to guard with their ball movement. They look for easy opportunities in semi-transition but otherwise swing the ball to the weakside from there and see what happens.

USG% is based purely on shot attempts and assists, and the Spurs played with a ton of ball movement. So even Leonard's putbacks appear on USG%, that's not having a play run for you that's beating your check with hustle. Leonard's offensive game was very raw last year, and nearly half his attempts were 3 point attempts in the Finals. That's not him turning into Steph Curry, it's his man doing a piss-poor job of keeping up.



Super stoked you had fun with the shot finder, dude. We've discovered that Lebron did indeed score points in the Finals, and wasn't shut out. Considering he's the best player on his team and this is basketball and not football or baseball, that sure does mean a lot. Here are a couple (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/plus_minus_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jamesle01&match=game&output=total&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=SAS&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts) more fun shot charts (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2014/) to show how truly un-impactful Lebron was. In basketball guys get their stats - the point of the game is to make it not matter in the end. 2 of the 3 games Lebron surpassed his season average for PPG were complete blowouts. The other was his fine effort in game 2. Game 1 he took 17 shots in a game that was fairly close until the end. Do you think Michael lets his team get outscored by 19 in the 4th quarter without just going and getting some points? Doubtful.

No, we discovered he didn't do what you said it does. He shot what? 38% after the game was a blowout? But you said it was those times after the game didn't matter that he padded those stats... But he shot badly in that time. How can you still sit there and try to defend this?

and yeah Pop did talk about Kawhi...

“We’re trying to loosen up a bit and give him more of a green light,” Popovich said. “He’s getting more license. When you’re a young kid, you’re going to defer to Timmy and Manu and [Tony]. Now it’s like, ‘To heck with those guys. The Big Three, they’re older than dirt. To hell with them. You’re the Big One. You’ve got to go do your deal.’ So, we’re trying to get him to be more demonstrative in that regard.”




And seriously... of all the charts you choose this one, the on/off chart. So offensive rating is the # of points a team tends to score in 100 possessions, and you use it there with the on/off feature. Of course defensively, you are looking at what you give up. So the net is where your team is without you in plus minus over 100 posessions and with you. So Lebron on court, Miami gives up 108, and off, they give up 119. Can you find a bigger defensive impact or are you putting this up there to say nobody impacted the NBA more defensively in that years playoffs than Lebron???


Overall he has an on/off swing of 8 points per 100 posessions. Or, if you are curious, right there with Steph Curry this year (8.3). Better than CP3 (7.2). Almost double the impact of James Harden this post-season (4.6). That is how "un-impactful Lebron was".

Do I think Michael gets more points... OF COURSE. He's the greatest scorer in league history there. Just because Magic doesn't get his and Iverson does, doesn't make AI better than Magic does it?



Look I see what you are doing, trying to play jello. Instead of talk about these things which was really all I was saying when you were making up things that just weren't true, like Kawhi wasn't getting plays called for him in the finals (WATCH THEM! YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IF YOU DID), and then you try and say "well he only shot 17 times in the finals and change off the topic again to something else. Never mind. I get it. Lebron stuffed his stat line late in the game of blowouts by hitting a single midrange shot a game there. Fine if you think that's what that is, go for it.

AND THAT is your chart?? He increased his impact to his team in the playoffs? Can you find one player from last years playoffs that had a higher impact on and off the court?


And yeah his plus minus sucked against the spurs. If he scored 50 a game it would still be in the negative. That's what happens when your teammates drop off in every single possible aspect of the game by a huge amount vs. a great team.

I don't see why you keep defending Lebron by showing that his on/off difference to his teams play was that massive.

Sure Kawhi's usage rate is because of those offensive boards he gets... (granted it's double Rodmans with Chicago, or Ben Wallaces, but I am sure that was just because Kawhi is double the guy on the boards those guys ever were) Do you see why your excuses are hard to buy?

And here you are saying giving up 3's is not keeping up, but you just change the Jersey, and Bron is hitting 51% of his and doubling the 3's he's hitting in that series and you need to completely rewrite that logic don't you? Because even though Lebron was playing a LOT of help D and Kawhi was not, you need the logic to only fit depending on who's jersey you are talking about right?

Your logic, if it's bad D because Kawhi is making 100% more 3's in that finals, what is it when Lebron is making 150% more?



Look, you know how I can tell you didn't watch the finals... plain and simple. This.

"Game 1 he took 17 shots in a game that was fairly close until the end. Do you think Michael lets his team get outscored by 19 in the 4th quarter without just going and getting some points? Doubtful."

Cramps... Oh yeah, the one thing the box score doesn't show that if you watched the game would stand out as the defining story of it. Lebron has them within 2 with that 3 that he was hobbling on, 5 minutes later they lost by 15. You are sitting there spouting a box score of a game obviously having no idea of the game. That's why I am done here.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:17 AM
No, we discovered he didn't do what you said it does. He shot what? 38% after the game was a blowout? But you said it was those times after the game didn't matter that he padded those stats... But he shot badly in that time. How can you still sit there and try to defend this?

and yeah Pop did talk about Kawhi...

“We’re trying to loosen up a bit and give him more of a green light,” Popovich said. “He’s getting more license. When you’re a young kid, you’re going to defer to Timmy and Manu and [Tony]. Now it’s like, ‘To heck with those guys. The Big Three, they’re older than dirt. To hell with them. You’re the Big One. You’ve got to go do your deal.’ So, we’re trying to get him to be more demonstrative in that regard.”




And seriously... of all the charts you choose this one, the on/off chart. So offensive rating is the # of points a team tends to score in 100 possessions, and you use it there with the on/off feature. Of course defensively, you are looking at what you give up. So the net is where your team is without you in plus minus over 100 posessions and with you. So Lebron on court, Miami gives up 108, and off, they give up 119. Can you find a bigger defensive impact or are you putting this up there to say nobody impacted the NBA more defensively in that years playoffs than Lebron???


Overall he has an on/off swing of 8 points per 100 posessions. Or, if you are curious, right there with Steph Curry this year (8.3). Better than CP3 (7.2). Almost double the impact of James Harden this post-season (4.6). That is how "un-impactful Lebron was".

Do I think Michael gets more points... OF COURSE. He's the greatest scorer in league history there. Just because Magic doesn't get his and Iverson does, doesn't make AI better than Magic does it?



Look I see what you are doing, trying to play jello. Instead of talk about these things which was really all I was saying when you were making up things that just weren't true, like Kawhi wasn't getting plays called for him in the finals (WATCH THEM! YOU CAN'T SAY THAT IF YOU DID), and then you try and say "well he only shot 17 times in the finals and change off the topic again to something else. Never mind. I get it. Lebron stuffed his stat line late in the game of blowouts by hitting a single midrange shot a game there. Fine if you think that's what that is, go for it.

AND THAT is your chart?? He increased his impact to his team in the playoffs? Can you find one player from last years playoffs that had a higher impact on and off the court?


And yeah his plus minus sucked against the spurs. If he scored 50 a game it would still be in the negative. That's what happens when your teammates drop off in every single possible aspect of the game by a huge amount vs. a great team.

I don't see why you keep defending Lebron by showing that his on/off difference to his teams play was that massive.

Sure Kawhi's usage rate is because of those offensive boards he gets... (granted it's double Rodmans with Chicago, or Ben Wallaces, but I am sure that was just because Kawhi is double the guy on the boards those guys ever were) Do you see why your excuses are hard to buy?

And here you are saying giving up 3's is not keeping up, but you just change the Jersey, and Bron is hitting 51% of his and doubling the 3's he's hitting in that series and you need to completely rewrite that logic don't you? Because even though Lebron was playing a LOT of help D and Kawhi was not, you need the logic to only fit depending on who's jersey you are talking about right?

Your logic, if it's bad D because Kawhi is making 100% more 3's in that finals, what is it when Lebron is making 150% more?



Look, you know how I can tell you didn't watch the finals... plain and simple. This.

"Game 1 he took 17 shots in a game that was fairly close until the end. Do you think Michael lets his team get outscored by 19 in the 4th quarter without just going and getting some points? Doubtful."

Cramps... Oh yeah, the one thing the box score doesn't show that if you watched the game would stand out as the defining story of it. Lebron has them within 2 with that 3 that he was hobbling on, 5 minutes later they lost by 15. You are sitting there spouting a box score of a game obviously having no idea of the game. That's why I am done here.

L-M-F-A-O, this guy is going to have to defecate from two holes after he reads this. A+ post, detailed and you finally put a stamp on his horrific credibility. Thank you, Snake. Beautiful post from a nonbiased NBA fan. Love it.

flea
05-27-2015, 01:27 AM
LeCramp didn't strike until way late, like 4 to go, and it was after the Heat had already squandered their lead entirely. The points he scored on the LeCramp layup were his only points of the 4th. Sorry bro but the game was over by that time, cramps or no. Also, the on/off was to indicate that his team barely played better with him on the floor, and was actually better offensively with him sitting (happened a lot in Heat days, ask Heat fans). Yeah his team played like crap, but so did he. He needed to score, get a stop, or do something. If he was the greatest player in the world at his peak of powers he could have done something to avoid being handed the worst finals loss in history.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:33 AM
No one thinks that of course, but Kawhi's impact on the finals was greater than Lebron's. I've watched that finals many times over, and there were times where Lebron wasn't even really noticed out there. He'd have a crazy good quarter, but then very little impact the other 3. Mainly in games 3-5

This is 100% incorrect. The Spurs without Kawhi would still have kept that game competitive. Danny Green>Wade. Duncan>Bosh. The Big Two of Miami Heat were being outplayed by Danny Green and Tim Duncan. Let's get to the rest. Chalmers? Outplayed by Mills. Ray Allen? Outplayed by Gino. Who else do you wanna go down the list to? Spurs without Kawhi would have been competitive. Miami without James? We're talking about 50 point losses over here. So no, Kawhi's impact was certainly not on par with James. Did he perform well enough to give that perception? Yeah, but we're talking about a guy who gets double teamed by the Spurs (really, who's going to double anyone from Miami besides James), to a guy who played on a team with the most in-sync offense ever. Not discrediting Kawhi here but he will be exposed when his teammates aren't playing well.

flea
05-27-2015, 01:39 AM
TBF I think he was the best player from at least 2010-2014. He was not the best player in that series though. The best player in a basketball game doesn't let the worst loss in Finals history happen - even if he's playing with the 94 Rockets minus Hakeem or the 03 Spurs minus Duncan.

Captain Moroni
05-27-2015, 01:40 AM
Everyone just assumes GSW will win. Not me.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:41 AM
LeCramp didn't strike until way late, like 4 to go, and it was after the Heat had already squandered their lead entirely. The points he scored on the LeCramp layup were his only points of the 4th. Sorry bro but the game was over by that point.

You definitely didn't watch the game. From the 7:30 minute mark to the end of regulation, LeBron played a total of 34 seconds. In that timespan, Miami were outscored 26-9. Again, the Heat were winning before LeBron came out because of cramps. He played a TOTAL of 34 seconds for the remaining game. In those 7 minutes he wasn't there, the Heat were outscored 26-7 (Bron made a two point shot and then sat back out). You may want to get your head checked out if you believe the hot garbage you're typing.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:43 AM
LeCramp didn't strike until way late, like 4 to go, and it was after the Heat had already squandered their lead entirely. The points he scored on the LeCramp layup were his only points of the 4th. Sorry bro but the game was over by that time, cramps or no. Also, the on/off was to indicate that his team barely played better with him on the floor, and was actually better offensively with him sitting (happened a lot in Heat days, ask Heat fans). Yeah his team played like crap, but so did he. He needed to score, get a stop, or do something. If he was the greatest player in the world at his peak of powers he could have done something to avoid being handed the worst finals loss in history.

Being the greatest player doesn't make you superman, pal. And you're a fool if you don't think that Spurs Finals team wasn't one of the best if not the best ever.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 01:44 AM
Done with replying to Flea. He got exposed once again and still comes up with more excuses. Saying how Manu outplayed LeBron.. Lmfao, what a joke. By your logic, the Spurs had at least, five LeBron James on their team (since they outplayed Bron). Do you even realize how far into stupidity you have reached with those comments?

tredigs
05-27-2015, 02:09 AM
Being the greatest player doesn't make you superman, pal. And you're a fool if you don't think that Spurs Finals team wasn't one of the best if not the best ever.
Maybe the best team ever? lmao - come on. They were playing absolutely great, but you're living in the present with that comment.

#'s wise, they were the 7th ranked offense last season and 3rd ranked defense. Their SRS was an elite 8.00, but that wouldn't even rank in the top 3 of teams that failed to make the Finals, let alone lost in the Finals, let alone won the trophy (obviously it isn't fool proof but as many people know, there's no better predictor of playoff dominance than SRS... which they did lead the league in last season). For reference, they had the third best SRS at 6.3 this season, and the Clips were #2 at 6.8.

They lost games in every round, including getting taken to 7 in the 1st round. At least half of Jordan's Bulls championship squads were clearly better and the peak of Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics were clearly better. After that, we could start having a debate of where they land. Probably somewhere in the middle of the next 10-15 best teams of all time.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:16 AM
Maybe the best team ever? lmao - come on. They were playing absolutely great, but you're living in the present with that comment.

#'s wise, they were the 7th ranked offense last season and 3rd ranked defense. Their SRS was an elite 8.00, but that wouldn't even rank in the top 3 of teams that failed to make the Finals, let alone lost in the Finals, let alone won the trophy (obviously it isn't fool proof but as many people know, there's no better predictor of playoff dominance than SRS... which they did lead the league in last season). For reference, they had the third best SRS at 6.3 this season, and the Clips were #2 at 6.8.

They lost games in every round, including getting taken to 7 in the 1st round. At least half of Jordan's Bulls championship squads were clearly better and the peak of Showtime Lakers and Bird's Celtics were clearly better. After that, we could start having a debate of where they land. Probably somewhere in the middle of the next 10-15 best teams of all time.

Well, I'm talking about the NBA Finals series specifically. Dallas took them to seven games but that was not the dominant Spurs of the NBA Finals. Maybe it had a lot to do with Miami getting beat at almost all positions but that was a beautiful display of basketball from the Spurs. They did everything well that series. We haven't given the Spurs much credit for just playing lights out basketball, tbh. We're all so stuck with LeBron and what he didn't do rather than what the Spurs DID do.

tredigs
05-27-2015, 02:34 AM
Well, I'm talking about the NBA Finals series specifically. Dallas took them to seven games but that was not the dominant Spurs of the NBA Finals. Maybe it had a lot to do with Miami getting beat at almost all positions but that was a beautiful display of basketball from the Spurs. They did everything well that series. We haven't given the Spurs much credit for just playing lights out basketball, tbh. We're all so stuck with LeBron and what he didn't do rather than what the Spurs DID do.
OK, I almost asked you that before I made my post because I thought that's what you might've meant. That is a more fair statement.

Personally, I'd say for sure it was one of the most impressive performances I've seen, but part of that is in fact due to the competition. The Heat were starting to run on fumes and were just prey for a team with ball movement like that + stifling wing defenders to slow down Lebron and Wade (and obviously Timmy to patrol the paint).

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 02:38 AM
OK, I almost asked you that before I made my post because I thought that's what you might've meant. That is a more fair statement.

Personally, I'd say for sure it was one of the most impressive performances I've seen, but part of that is in fact due to the competition. The Heat were starting to run on fumes and were just prey for a team with ball movement like that + stifling wing defenders to slow down Lebron and Wade (and obviously Timmy to patrol the paint).

For sure, but we need to look at it from another angle. Would the Heat have beaten any other team in the WC besides the Spurs? I mean, running down the list of the playoff teams for the West, we have OKC, Clippers, Memphis, GSW, Portland, Rockets, and Dallas. Hard to imagine that same Heat team loses against those teams the way they lost to the Spurs. I'd have Miami win against all of them besides Spurs. Even if you don't have Miami winning against all of them, they certainly wouldn't be pummeled the way Spurs hammered them.

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 02:54 AM
LeCramp didn't strike until way late, like 4 to go, and it was after the Heat had already squandered their lead entirely. The points he scored on the LeCramp layup were his only points of the 4th. Sorry bro but the game was over by that time, cramps or no. Also, the on/off was to indicate that his team barely played better with him on the floor, and was actually better offensively with him sitting (happened a lot in Heat days, ask Heat fans). Yeah his team played like crap, but so did he. He needed to score, get a stop, or do something. If he was the greatest player in the world at his peak of powers he could have done something to avoid being handed the worst finals loss in history.

QUIT PRETENDING YOU SAW THE GAME IF YOU ARE JUST READING THE BOX SCORE AND KEEP SCREWING UP WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Lebron left due to cramps in the 4th about 4 minutes into the 4th quarter. Tried about a 30 second comeback, hit a shot and couldn't move after that. But I am sure you just looked at the box score and said "oh there it is, Lebron out at this time, see he was fine till then" in your attempt to try and pretend you have a clue. The more you talk about this the more painfully obvious it is you didn't see it, or just are hoping others didn't and you can lie your way out of this.

Come on.. did you type that really believing someone would buy your excuse there? 92-94 when he left... No "bro", the game was not over at that time. He had them up before he cramped, went to the bench, and they were down 4 before he came back in. He got them within 2, and went back out and they went down 13. What point were they losing like you say with him out there not shooting? They were up when he left, and he came back for 1 posession when they didn't have the lead... WHICH HE SCORED ON. He played 1 whole posession while they were down in the 4th and shot on it and scored. 100%. Oh wait, you didn't have a clue of that and were reading box scores pretending you knew about the game.

But nice lie to try and hope it was. Bravo. What is it with this "at all costs, no amount of fact will get in my way as long as I can pretend something else happened". Then what is even more amazing, you lock down on it no matter how dumb it sounds when it comes out of your mouth. I mean really, that was the game you talk about his not taking over in the 4th. The game he missed most of it? What's next, you talking about how bad Kobe is because he wasn't a great scorer down the stretch of this season? Or maybe you can explain to everyone how Kevin Love didn't miss a single key shot in the series against the Hawks. Oh I got it. You can bring up how Phil Jackson didn't win a single game on the sidelines in his first year with the Knicks. I like that one.


He sat out 7+ minutes of the 4th you know. Oh wait you had no clue, because you are going on and on about how he didn't take a pile of shots as they started getting blown out having no idea whatsoever that he couldn't play when the Spurs went on that 16-3 run to close the game. Whoops..


And you pulled up the on/off to show how better they were offensively without him? Like I said... plus 8 with him in net rating (net points per 100 posessions). Who's better? Oh wait, you couldn't find a single person? Not.... one.... ????? Did you accidently pull up the on/off that showed Lebron was super impactful by mistake, by being so drawn in to try to prove him as not impactful you forgot to look at his overall impact and focus on just half of the game?

And do you really sit there watching the Heat this past year and say "now that is how the offense should really look, running on all 3 cylinders"? Do you really watch games and go "man that Lebron really ruins a teams offense"? I mean that's like watching Curry at the free throw line, seeing him miss a free throw and saying "man he needs to take some lessons from Chris Dudley". It is literally that dumb of a thought.


Oh lecramp? really what are you 5 now? nice, I give facts, you give really sweet nicknames that are so very cool. Look if you are just there to troll and make up these SUPER SMART nicknames, enjoy. Done with you.

tredigs
05-27-2015, 02:58 AM
For sure, but we need to look at it from another angle. Would the Heat have beaten any other team in the WC besides the Spurs? I mean, running down the list of the playoff teams for the West, we have OKC, Clippers, Memphis, GSW, Portland, Rockets, and Dallas. Hard to imagine that same Heat team loses against those teams the way they lost to the Spurs. I'd have Miami win against all of them besides Spurs. Even if you don't have Miami winning against all of them, they certainly wouldn't be pummeled the way Spurs hammered them.

It would depend a bit on Ibaka's health, but I'd have definitely favored OKC over them. I think the Clippers could have beat them too. The Warriors with Bogut would have given them a match, but obviously he was out once the playoffs started. I wasn't all that impressed with the '14 Heat, they just looked worn out. Going back to SRS, they ranked #1 in the East (a bit ahead of Indy), but in order behind the Spurs, Clippers, Warriors, Rockets and Blazers overall. That does say something.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 03:07 AM
It would depend a bit on Ibaka's health, but I'd have definitely favored OKC over them. I think the Clippers could have beat them too. The Warriors with Bogut would have given them a match, but obviously he was out once the playoffs started. I wasn't all that impressed with the '14 Heat, they just looked worn out. Going back to SRS, they ranked #1 in the East (a bit ahead of Indy), but in order behind the Spurs, Clippers, Warriors, Rockets and Blazers overall. That does say something.

No doubt, not saying the WC teams sucked but which team would you have had them losing by 18 points on average in the four losses? I'm willing to bet none of them.

slashsnake
05-27-2015, 03:08 AM
Look flea... No issue saying Lebron wasn't at his absolute best. We've seen prime Jordan put together some awful nights against the Pistons too. Something like 9 turnovers in the deciding game, struggling to stay above 30% shooting in losses.. It happens.

But talking that the offense is better without him is just a joke you know. Saying that he has no impact is a joke. What would he have needed to do to win that series? 50 a game? 60 maybe? They didn't have a team like the Spurs. They had a team where his entire teammates regressed in a huge way as a whole. He didn't have guys he could rely on to lead them in scoring or in ball handling, or in passing, or getting boards.

Like you say, Kawhi didn't have to worry about creating offense and handling the ball and putting pressure on the D. He sat outside and when Lebron helped on someone else made the open shots and got the putbacks. He didn't have to run the offense. Imagine if Lebron decided to make that his game, Put the ball in Chalmers hands to create, and just take what others created for him? If he gets 9 points... cool, others can carry the scoring load, but he's only going to shoot or make a play when it's in his favor to, taking open shots and putbacks... They'd be out in the first round the way they were playing.

Come on... It was a bad series. Still better than losing a conference finals though. As black of a mark as that was, it was still better than not even getting the team you lead there, which every other superstar was unable to do last year (not sure if I'd say any of the Spurs were really superstars anymore).

kdspurman
05-27-2015, 01:41 PM
This is 100% incorrect. The Spurs without Kawhi would still have kept that game competitive. Danny Green>Wade. Duncan>Bosh. The Big Two of Miami Heat were being outplayed by Danny Green and Tim Duncan. Let's get to the rest. Chalmers? Outplayed by Mills. Ray Allen? Outplayed by Gino. Who else do you wanna go down the list to? Spurs without Kawhi would have been competitive. Miami without James? We're talking about 50 point losses over here. So no, Kawhi's impact was certainly not on par with James. Did he perform well enough to give that perception? Yeah, but we're talking about a guy who gets double teamed by the Spurs (really, who's going to double anyone from Miami besides James), to a guy who played on a team with the most in-sync offense ever. Not discrediting Kawhi here but he will be exposed when his teammates aren't playing well.

It's not a matter of if 1 guy is not there, etc... Obviously that's a different scenario. But the scenario that DID happen, is both played, and of the 2 that played, Kawhi's impact was greater.

We aren't talking about what if's. We're talking about what actually happened

Numbers back it up.. Don't let Lebron's PPG fool you. Like I said, I've watched that series several times. Go back & watch games 3-5.

Also, they hardly double teamed Lebron.

FlashBolt
05-27-2015, 10:08 PM
It's not a matter of if 1 guy is not there, etc... Obviously that's a different scenario. But the scenario that DID happen, is both played, and of the 2 that played, Kawhi's impact was greater.

We aren't talking about what if's. We're talking about what actually happened

Numbers back it up.. Don't let Lebron's PPG fool you. Like I said, I've watched that series several times. Go back & watch games 3-5.

Also, they hardly double teamed Lebron.

Kawhi's impact isn't greater if you look beyond that Spurs totally destroyed James. It's not hard to be misconstrued into giving Kawhi the "more impact" when his team completely obliterated the Heat. Sorry, not buying it. Numbers that you have yet to provide, tbh. LeBron was the best player on a team that was just finished when it mattered.

kdspurman
05-27-2015, 10:25 PM
Kawhi's impact isn't greater if you look beyond that Spurs totally destroyed James. It's not hard to be misconstrued into giving Kawhi the "more impact" when his team completely obliterated the Heat. Sorry, not buying it. Numbers that you have yet to provide, tbh. LeBron was the best player on a team that was just finished when it mattered.

Well, when Kawhi defended Lebron (if Lebron even got the ball) it usually resulted in forcing him into a long shot, or forcing him to pass the ball.

Like I said, the last 3 games or so Lebron would have a great 1st quarter or a great 3rd quarter, but you wouldn't get much of anything from him in the other 2 or 3 quarters, on either end. Kawhi was consistently more impactful those last 3 games. This is what I'm emphasizing as he struggled with fouls and maybe confidence games 1 & 2. Whether it was defensively or offensively, when he was on the court he made stuff happen.

Lebron, not so much. And whether you want to blame that on his teammates that's up to you, but it's a fact when you look at the totality of those last 3 games. I'll dig some stuff up

kdspurman
05-28-2015, 09:12 AM
After scoring 17 points on seven shots in the first quarter of Game 5, James went 3-of-10 for 10 points through the second and third periods. In Game 4, he attempted just seven shots through the first half before exploding for 19 points in the third. It was admittedly weird.

In Game 4, he went on to go 0-2 from the field in the 4th Q. He was 3/7 the first half. He went 7/8 in that 3rd quarter, but like I said, pretty much non-existent the other 3 quarters.

Game 5, 17 points in the first quarter, 5/7, aggressive and attacking early. 2nd quarter, 1/3 3rd, 2/3, 4th 2/4. 5 made FG's the first quarter. 5 made FG's the rest of the game after that.


The Heat were collectively exposed across the board. And it impacted all of their players, even their premier one, individually. In the Finals, James averaged 28.2 points and 7.8 rebounds, while shooting 57.1 percent from the floor, but somehow the Heat were a minus-13.1 per 100 possessions when he played.



Games 3, 4 and 5 represented masterful basketball from the Spurs, but it was hard to ignore that most of LeBron’s production came in limited spurts. He was also outplayed on both ends of the floor for noticeable stretches of those games by Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard.

http://hoopshabit.com/2014/06/17/lebron-james-nba-finals-loss-hurt-legacy/



I think I posted this before for a similar argument (forgot with who) but this shows some of the Kawhi effect in game 3-

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron

Game 3, much like Game 5, Lebron started out great. He started 5/6 from the field in the 1st and had 14 points. (though Kawhi matched his hot start w/ 16 points of his own )

After that 1st quarter however, he went 1/3 from the field in the 2nd, 1/1 in the 3rd, and 2/4 in the 4th. He finished w/22 points, tied with Wade for a team high.

So yes, if you take out Lebron/Kawhi, obviously the Spurs have the significant advantage. That does not change that fact that from games 3-5, Kawhi had a far larger impact on the game/series than Lebron. There's a reason Lebron was only able to have a really good quarter, then struggle and be passive the majority of the game. (I didn't even factor averaging nearly 4 TO's pg) Kawhi's defense on him, ball denial, and just forcing him to do things he didn't want.

Factor that with Kawhi's offense coming around those last 3 games scoring 23.6ppg on 68% from the field +9.3rbg/2bpg/2spg, and it was pretty obvious that he had the advantage those last few games.

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 01:26 PM
In Game 4, he went on to go 0-2 from the field in the 4th Q. He was 3/7 the first half. He went 7/8 in that 3rd quarter, but like I said, pretty much non-existent the other 3 quarters.

Game 5, 17 points in the first quarter, 5/7, aggressive and attacking early. 2nd quarter, 1/3 3rd, 2/3, 4th 2/4. 5 made FG's the first quarter. 5 made FG's the rest of the game after that.






http://hoopshabit.com/2014/06/17/lebron-james-nba-finals-loss-hurt-legacy/



I think I posted this before for a similar argument (forgot with who) but this shows some of the Kawhi effect in game 3-

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron

Game 3, much like Game 5, Lebron started out great. He started 5/6 from the field in the 1st and had 14 points. (though Kawhi matched his hot start w/ 16 points of his own )

After that 1st quarter however, he went 1/3 from the field in the 2nd, 1/1 in the 3rd, and 2/4 in the 4th. He finished w/22 points, tied with Wade for a team high.

So yes, if you take out Lebron/Kawhi, obviously the Spurs have the significant advantage. That does not change that fact that from games 3-5, Kawhi had a far larger impact on the game/series than Lebron. There's a reason Lebron was only able to have a really good quarter, then struggle and be passive the majority of the game. (I didn't even factor averaging nearly 4 TO's pg) Kawhi's defense on him, ball denial, and just forcing him to do things he didn't want.

Factor that with Kawhi's offense coming around those last 3 games scoring 23.6ppg on 68% from the field +9.3rbg/2bpg/2spg, and it was pretty obvious that he had the advantage those last few games.

Your line of thinking would have Danny Green/Ginobili having more of an impact than Bron. That's simply not possible. Spurs were a better team and they destroyed the Heat. No one could have carried that team with the way the Spurs were playing. Why is no one talking about how the Heat were outscored 25-7 when James went out in game 1? I mean, this Heat team could have very well been destroyed by 40 points per game without Bron if you ask me.

kdspurman
05-28-2015, 01:49 PM
Your line of thinking would have Danny Green/Ginobili having more of an impact than Bron. That's simply not possible. Spurs were a better team and they destroyed the Heat. No one could have carried that team with the way the Spurs were playing. Why is no one talking about how the Heat were outscored 25-7 when James went out in game 1? I mean, this Heat team could have very well been destroyed by 40 points per game without Bron if you ask me.

No, that's not even close to being true man. Green certainly was defensively, and Manu had a solid bounce back series, but they were not even close to being as impactful on the series as a whole. Kawhi created so many opportunities for other guys, I don't think you realize

And I keep saying the emphasis is on games 3-5... I remember game 1 and #ACGate... (though the Spurs started their run w/Lebron in there) but I was upset he didn't finish the game cause I wanted to beat them at their best and wanted them to show they could. They showed that emphatically anyway so it didn't matter.

FlashBolt
05-28-2015, 01:56 PM
Kawhi's impact only looked better because his team was just dominating on all cylinders. I'm sorry but that's the truth. It was much easier to be in Kawhi's position than Bron. When he doesn't have to worry about making all the plays, scoring, rebounding, defending, and passing or heck, even being a leader whereas someone like James has that constant pressure to do so. Numbers in that series don't work in anyone's favor besides all the Spurs players. How many of them shot below 50%? Who in the Heat roster was better than the Spurs at any position besides James? That's just too much of a load. That impact is as artificial as it gets. And I wanna use the LAC vs Spurs as an example. You can certainly argue that Kawhi lost this series for the Spurs. He had three terrible games and they were up 3-2, he blew the last two games even worse. His team wasn't even close to being that Finals team but we saw Kawhi have practically no impact. Now, how would that look if his team was clicking on all cylinders?

kdspurman
05-28-2015, 02:47 PM
Kawhi's impact only looked better because his team was just dominating on all cylinders. I'm sorry but that's the truth. It was much easier to be in Kawhi's position than Bron. When he doesn't have to worry about making all the plays, scoring, rebounding, defending, and passing or heck, even being a leader whereas someone like James has that constant pressure to do so. Numbers in that series don't work in anyone's favor besides all the Spurs players. How many of them shot below 50%? Who in the Heat roster was better than the Spurs at any position besides James? That's just too much of a load. That impact is as artificial as it gets. And I wanna use the LAC vs Spurs as an example. You can certainly argue that Kawhi lost this series for the Spurs. He had three terrible games and they were up 3-2, he blew the last two games even worse. His team wasn't even close to being that Finals team but we saw Kawhi have practically no impact. Now, how would that look if his team was clicking on all cylinders?

And Kawhi's impact was WHY they were dominating that finals.... Look how he played in Games 1 & 2. Miami won Game 2 and Game 1 they were neck and neck (and down late) till a late run helped them steal it. Now, look at him when he attacked on offense and was engaged defensively. Well, Games 3-5 happen. He was the catalyst.

And sure, you can argue Kawhi lost the series, (though I wouldn't agree) I would argue more due to an injured Parker/Splitter, inconsistent Green, and Paul + Griffin playing as well as they did were the reasons they won.

The games Kawhi struggled, 5-7, they won 5 and lost 6 & 7 by a combined 8 points (6 & 2 respectively). Even w/Kawhi's struggles they had a chance to win. & To say he had no impact would be a bit ignorant. Just cause he's struggling from the field doesn't mean he had no impact. He was tasked with slowing down Redick most of the time which he succeeded most of the games. Not to mention doing his usual damage rebounding the ball averaging nearly 9 boards a game where it was crucial while we got beat on the boards so often.

AIRMAR72
05-28-2015, 08:48 PM
Assuming Irving isn't healthy, no Love and the GSW are playing the way they are. Prime Jordan from their 1st three-peat. Of course, no LeBron on his roster. if Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman along with Scotty on the team but the Cavs with Bron will beat the the Golden State warriors the Cavs ARE a better halfcourt defensive team plus the frontcourt size penetrating Pg and Bron

MTar786
05-28-2015, 09:38 PM
if jordan had kyrie and love they would squash the warriors. infact sub lebron for kobe from anywheere between 03-09 and theyd beat the warriors too. IMO lebron underachieved with this team. very good roster of talent... yet people seem to make excuses for him year after year. But no lie.. lebrons been impressive this month. he seems to fare better with specialists and role players. he isnt good at making other stars better on a team. he takes too much away from them

bucketss
05-28-2015, 09:52 PM
i think a prime jordan would be surprised with with all these ultra athletic defenders, it would be a change from those slow wings that use to guard him.

tredigs
05-29-2015, 03:38 AM
i think a prime jordan would be surprised with with all these ultra athletic defenders, it would be a change from those slow wings that use to guard him.

Age?

andy2518
05-29-2015, 03:45 AM
i think a prime jordan would be surprised with with all these ultra athletic defenders, it would be a change from those slow wings that use to guard him.

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. My hope is the latter.

cmellofan15
06-03-2015, 12:43 AM
Oh man I just read slashsnakes verbal spanking of flea and completely forgot what this thread was about.

Go MJ!

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-03-2015, 03:11 AM
if jordan had kyrie and love they would squash the warriors. infact sub lebron for kobe from anywheere between 03-09 and theyd beat the warriors too. IMO lebron underachieved with this team. very good roster of talent... yet people seem to make excuses for him year after year. But no lie.. lebrons been impressive this month. he seems to fare better with specialists and role players. he isnt good at making other stars better on a team. he takes too much away from them

Post of the thread

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-03-2015, 03:12 AM
i think a prime jordan would be surprised with with all these ultra athletic defenders, it would be a change from those slow wings that use to guard him.

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. My hope is the latter.

He's dead serious. Check out my sig.

nickdymez
06-03-2015, 05:42 AM
Bunch of young Lebron Homers in here who have no clue

nickdymez
06-03-2015, 05:45 AM
if jordan had kyrie and love they would squash the warriors. infact sub lebron for kobe from anywheere between 03-09 and theyd beat the warriors too. IMO lebron underachieved with this team. very good roster of talent... yet people seem to make excuses for him year after year. But no lie.. lebrons been impressive this month. he seems to fare better with specialists and role players. he isnt good at making other stars better on a team. he takes too much away from them
This sums it up well

Yanks All Day
06-03-2015, 08:54 AM
Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player to ever play. I have LeBron James somewhere in the 8-12 range right now. I'll start the post with that, so there's no confusion as to where I'm coming from.

But, my god, due to a combination of Jordan nostalgia and legitimate fear that LeBron is passing by the Birds, Kobes, etc. on the all time great list, we have gotten to the point where we're overrating MJ and underrating LBJ. Yes, if Jordan had Kyrie at 100% and Kevin Love playing, not to mention a healthy Anderson Varejao, this Cleveland team would beat the Warriors handily. But you know what? If LeBron had that same scenario, the same results would occur.

We're watching an all-time great basketball player in LeBron James. He's most likely going to end up among the top 5 basketball players of all time. In comparison to Michael Jordan, LeBron James is a better athlete, passer, rebounder, and facilitator. Defense is debatable in terms of who was better, but LeBron is certainly the more versatile defender. For the majority of his career, every team LeBron has been on (outside of this one) he's been the best passer, rebounder, defender, and scorer. How many times was Jordan ALL of that? Never. He played on one of the most stacked teams in the history of the NBA with guys like Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, etc. who played their roles at all-time great levels which took the pressure off MJ and allowed him to be the greatest scoring assassin we've ever seen. Furthermore, people forget that Jordan was an average jump shooter until he was forced to develop one later in his career. It's not like he's going to go out there and nail every jumper he takes and absolutely wipe the floor with an opponent from the perimeter.

I think this Cavs team with LeBron actually matches up with Golden State really well, and that's because of LeBron's advantage with size, speed, and passing over the Warriors' front court defenders. He's actually THE advantage in this series. Again, I'm not saying LeBron's better than Jordan, but he's certainly better in many aspects of the game. Jordan is the best of all time because of the overall career he had. Now, we're talking about replacing a top 10 player of all time with the greatest of all time, and against a Golden State team that's put up historically great numbers, the Cavs go from underdog to an absolute squash favorite? I just really don't see it, and I think the majority of that view comes strictly from the rose-colored MJ glasses and LeBron hate.

Personally, I think the Cavs win this series with either LeBron or MJ. The disparity in perception between the two as basketball players just has me baffled. If the thread was something like "Could the Rockets win with MJ instead of Harden," I'd see it. But LeBron is an all time great player. That difference in team success probably isn't nearly as wide as some people would like it to be.

And since the OP specifically said "assuming no Love, Irving isn't 100%, and Golden State playing the way they are:"

No Love and a hobbled Irving plays more towards LeBron's favor over MJ because of his versatility. Golden State playing the way they are, in reality, isn't that great. Because of their roster, people have overlooked that they didn't have a great series against a Memphis team with zero perimeter game, and outside of Game 1's offensive display against Houston, the Warriors didn't play a great series against the Rockets either. Cleveland is currently playing a higher level of basketball than the Warriors.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 08:56 AM
maybe. odds are not in his favor.

1) This Warriors team is actually one of the best teams put together in the history of the NBA

and

2) This is one of the worst supporting casts to make the finals

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 08:58 AM
Post of the thread

Most delusional poster of the forum. his arguments suits his name.

hidalgo
06-03-2015, 09:41 AM
yes a prime MJ would win this championship against the warriors. especially with the rules now he'd put 45 ppg on the warriors 55%FG

i wanna be clear MJ is my favorite player of all time any sport by far, but i really like LeBron, & love watching him play. not all MJ fans hate LeBron, i sure don't, he's awesome. i'm also not affraid he will surpass MJ, just way too much work left to do to even come close. MJ's 6 titles was him showing mercy on the nba, not the max he could have had if he didn't retire in his prime for about 2 season, & the 1999 title i think they'd have won if they brought everyone back & MJ didn't retire again. LeBron, could end up #2 right next to MJ, if all goes extremely well for him. he's no MJ, but nobody is/was. Duncan, Shaq & LeBron, 3 best since MJ left, all top 10 ever for sure. LeBron is hands down definitely better than Kobe ever was

i think LeBron & the Cavs will win this one in 7

JLynn943
06-03-2015, 09:43 AM
if jordan had kyrie and love they would squash the warriors. infact sub lebron for kobe from anywheere between 03-09 and theyd beat the warriors too. IMO lebron underachieved with this team. very good roster of talent... yet people seem to make excuses for him year after year. But no lie.. lebrons been impressive this month. he seems to fare better with specialists and role players. he isnt good at making other stars better on a team. he takes too much away from them

Every good team has specialists and role players on it. Just because he's been able to carry a team with only those players on it right now (and a clearly-hobbled other star player), and has done it before, doesn't mean that's all he can do. He went to four finals in four years with two star players and won two championships (losing one to an incredible Spurs team), he's proven that he's perfectly capable of playing with stars. He even effectively changed his position/role into more of a PF to fit better when needed.

People - Kobe fans especially - just feel the need to knock him down, give backhanded compliments, and troll him just so they can feel better about their favorite player and argue to preserve his spot over LeBron all time. It's pretty much all the NBA forum is.

JLynn943
06-03-2015, 09:45 AM
I really don't think Jordan could win with this Cavs team as it currently stands. He could maybe put up a fight, but this Warriors team is ridiculously deep and incredibly adept at hitting 3s. I just don't see them losing to a team with one or two stars.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 10:02 AM
yes a prime MJ would win this championship against the warriors. especially with the rules now he'd put 45 ppg on the warriors 55%FG

i wanna be clear MJ is my favorite player of all time any sport by far, but i really like LeBron, & love watching him play. not all MJ fans hate LeBron, i sure don't, he's awesome. i'm also not affraid he will surpass MJ, just way too much work left to do to even come close. MJ's 6 titles was him showing mercy on the nba, not the max he could have had if he didn't retire in his prime for about 2 season, & the 1999 title i think they'd have won if they brought everyone back & MJ didn't retire again. LeBron, could end up #2 right next to MJ, if all goes extremely well for him. he's no MJ, but nobody is/was. Duncan, Shaq & LeBron, 3 best since MJ left, all top 10 ever for sure. LeBron is hands down definitely better than Kobe ever was

i think LeBron & the Cavs will win this one in 7

after looking at each team, the 31% that cavs have at winning this series seems little. But this team (warriors) is one of the best teams EVER, in the history of the NBA.

kingkenny01
06-03-2015, 10:50 AM
I know the point of this thread was basically to debate lebron and Jordan. But come on either player with no love and a hobbled Irving is not beating the warriors this team is loaded.

ManRam
06-03-2015, 11:16 AM
Could he? Maybe. I think give either him or LeBron 10 tries they win it at least once. Would he? IDK. He never won a ring with nearly as little talent. This Cavs squad with either MJ or LeBron is going to be an underdog.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/where-this-years-cavs-rank-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

Another great example of why bashing him for losing in the Finals in 2007 is an utter joke, as will it probably be this year (unless he truly stinks it up).

ewing
06-03-2015, 11:43 AM
poor LeBron

ewing
06-03-2015, 11:43 AM
Anyway, MJ vs a ****ing Tank?

Jamiecballer
06-03-2015, 11:45 AM
would be great to see, but i have my doubts. even jordan can't make this an even series.

ewing
06-03-2015, 11:46 AM
would be great to see, but i have my doubts. even jordan can't make this an even series.


MJ versus a series of tanks? too much

LakerShow
06-03-2015, 12:05 PM
The average age of psd is 19. The Cavs wIth Jordan would take it to the warriors.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2015, 12:58 PM
Age?


I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. My hope is the latter.

I think buckets is referring to relatively small guys like Thunder Dan, and Joe Dumars vs current guys like Leonard, Butler, and George.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2015, 01:03 PM
Age?


I really don't think Jordan could win with this Cavs team as it currently stands. He could maybe put up a fight, but this Warriors team is ridiculously deep and incredibly adept at hitting 3s. I just don't see them losing to a team with one or two stars.

I could see Jordan dropping 50 every game, and the team still loosing.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 01:18 PM
The average age of psd is 19. The Cavs wIth Jordan would take it to the warriors.

living in the 80s and 90s much?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-03-2015, 02:02 PM
maybe. odds are not in his favor.

1) This Warriors team is actually one of the best teams put together in the history of the NBA

and

2) This is one of the worst supporting casts to make the finals

Meh, I can name you at least ten championship teams that would beat the Warriors down. And yes that includes all 5 of the recent lakers teams to win it.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 02:20 PM
Meh, I can name you at least ten championship teams that would beat the Warriors down. And yes that includes all 5 of the recent lakers teams to win it.

like this year's Lakers team? or the last few championship Lakers?

Shaq and Gasol would definitely be a problem for the Warriors - it would be a problem matchup for sure.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-03-2015, 02:22 PM
Meh, I can name you at least ten championship teams that would beat the Warriors down. And yes that includes all 5 of the recent lakers teams to win it.

like this year's Lakers team? or the last few championship Lakers?

Championship teams obviously

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 02:23 PM
Championship teams obviously

ya i can see Shaq and Gasol giving them problems.

ewing
06-03-2015, 02:32 PM
I think buckets is referring to relatively small guys like Thunder Dan, and Joe Dumars vs current guys like Leonard, Butler, and George.


Dan Marerle was about 6'6 and pretty strong. He certainly would not look small next to Jimmy Butler

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-03-2015, 02:33 PM
Championship teams obviously

ya i can see Shaq and Gasol giving them problems.

Yup, and add a top five player all time and things get even worse for them.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2015, 02:36 PM
I don't think so. Jordan was the best player on the floor by a mile a bunch of his first number of playoff series, but his roster was lacking, and he was bounced. Once he got legit help, it was lights out for the league. A healthy Love, and Irving? Probably enough, don't see why not. But when you are depending on the John Paxon's, and Horace Grant's as your big help, you aint winning.

I see no reason why a prime Jordan doesn't get them to the finals however. I just think GS is a really, really good team, that can matchup with anyone. Or at least the first 97 games of this year.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 03:06 PM
Yup, and add a top five player all time and things get even worse for them.

na, it would put them on a equal playing field. Golden State is a great defensive team as well. actually one of the tops.

Kobe wouldn't give them problems. It would be the presence of Shaq or Pau.

And this Warriors team, in my opinion, is better than the Celtics and Pistons they lost to in the Finals.

FlashBolt
06-03-2015, 03:59 PM
This Curry+Shaq=two thousand peat.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2015, 04:10 PM
Dan Marerle was about 6'6 and pretty strong. He certainly would not look small next to Jimmy Butler

Athletically, he not close to any of those guys. That would matter a lot more than strength, just ask every power forward who tries to guard Lebron.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2015, 04:15 PM
Age?


na, it would put them on a equal playing field. Golden State is a great defensive team as well. actually one of the tops.

Kobe wouldn't give them problems. It would be the presence of Shaq or Pau.

And this Warriors team, in my opinion, is better than the Celtics and Pistons they lost to in the Finals.


I would definitely have to agree with this. Steph has been better than any one player on those teams, and they are at least two players deeper than any of those teams as well. Shaw Lakers would probably beat GS, but I doubt the Gasol Lakers win.

ewing
06-03-2015, 04:23 PM
Athletically, he not close to any of those guys. That would matter a lot more than strength, just ask every power forward who tries to guard Lebron.



you said old guys are small then used Marerle as an example of an old small guy and Butler as an example of a bigger new guy. you were wrong.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2015, 04:27 PM
Age?


you said old guys are small then used Marerle as an example of an old small guy and Butler as an example of a bigger new guy. you were wrong.

You missed the word "slow" and I didn't say it. Get your ish together. Last time I checked both George and Leonard are taller than 6'6". You were wrong.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2015, 04:34 PM
you said old guys are small then used Marerle as an example of an old small guy and Butler as an example of a bigger new guy. you were wrong.

Jimmy is 6'7 and athletic, dan is 6'6 and relatively slow. I see a big difference from them defensively. If you don't then, it explains a lot.

L8kers4life
06-03-2015, 04:44 PM
[QUOTE=koreancabbage;30014451]na, it would put them on a equal playing field. Golden State is a great defensive team as well. actually one of the tops.

Kobe wouldn't give them problems. It would be the presence of Shaq or Pau.

And this Warriors team, in my opinion, is better than the Celtics and Pistons they lost to in the Finals.[/QUOTE

I can't take you serious when you say Kobe wouldn't give them problems, so Stephen Curry and Thompson are going to shut down Kobe? If Pau is more of a threat than Kobe than something is wrong. Please stop disrespecting Kobe, I get that Shaq and Pau are great but Clay and step are not slowing down Kobe in his prime.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 04:46 PM
[/B]

I would definitely have to agree with this. Steph has been better than any one player on those teams, and they are at least two players deeper than any of those teams as well. Shaw Lakers would probably beat GS, but I doubt the Gasol Lakers win.

maybe.

koreancabbage
06-03-2015, 04:53 PM
[QUOTE=koreancabbage;30014451]na, it would put them on a equal playing field. Golden State is a great defensive team as well. actually one of the tops.

Kobe wouldn't give them problems. It would be the presence of Shaq or Pau.

And this Warriors team, in my opinion, is better than the Celtics and Pistons they lost to in the Finals.[/QUOTE

I can't take you serious when you say Kobe wouldn't give them problems, so Stephen Curry and Thompson are going to shut down Kobe? If Pau is more of a threat than Kobe than something is wrong. Please stop disrespecting Kobe, I get that Shaq and Pau are great but Clay and step are not slowing down Kobe in his prime.

Against GS? nope. Shaq would be feasting on this small GSW. Kobe is the least of their worries.

Shaq and Kobe could beat this Warriors team.

Pau and Kobe would lose to this Warriors team.

L8kers4life
06-03-2015, 05:10 PM
I think Draymon would have trouble against Pau and Bogut always had trouble with Bynum. Curry would destroy Fisher, but Thompson would have his trouble against Artest or Ariza. Kobe would kill Barnes and Thompson in his prime.

KnicksorBust
06-03-2015, 05:16 PM
what happened to Jordan? When did this become about the lakers?

ewing
06-04-2015, 08:23 AM
You missed the word "slow" and I didn't say it. Get your ish together. Last time I checked both George and Leonard are taller than 6'6". You were wrong.


here what you said

I think buckets is referring to relatively small guys like Thunder Dan, and Joe Dumars vs current guys like Leonard, Butler, and George.

Thunder Dan was a strong 6'6. he was just about the same size as Bulter and Leonard who are listed at 6'6 and 6'7. Like usual you are talking about **** you know nothing about

Hawkeye15
06-04-2015, 09:52 AM
here what you said

I think buckets is referring to relatively small guys like Thunder Dan, and Joe Dumars vs current guys like Leonard, Butler, and George.

Thunder Dan was a strong 6'6. he was just about the same size as Bulter and Leonard who are listed at 6'6 and 6'7. Like usual you are talking about **** you know nothing about

the players in the 90's for sure started putting on muscle when the hard hitting defenses started, and the physicality was more violent. In fact, the players today might be leaner than the players in the early to mid 90's.

ewing
06-04-2015, 10:05 AM
the players in the 90's for sure started putting on muscle when the hard hitting defenses started, and the physicality was more violent. In fact, the players today might be leaner than the players in the early to mid 90's.

IDk and i don't think you can trust the listings either. I took a look and Dan was listed at 215, Jimmy 220, and Leonard 230. now who knows when those measurements were taken or if they were just told to someone. I think Dan looked bigger then Jimmy and Leonard looks at 10 pounds bigger then Dan.

JLynn943
06-04-2015, 10:14 AM
what happened to Jordan? When did this become about the lakers?

It's the NBA forum. If a thread lasts past the first page without the mention of the Lakers, we'd probably all win a million dollars. It's just never going to happen.

pacofunk64
06-04-2015, 11:02 AM
So what you are really asking is this "could the best player to ever live beat the GS warriors with the current Cavaliers team". I have to go with an obvious yes.

Hawkeye15
06-04-2015, 12:49 PM
IDk and i don't think you can trust the listings either. I took a look and Dan was listed at 215, Jimmy 220, and Leonard 230. now who knows when those measurements were taken or if they were just told to someone. I think Dan looked bigger then Jimmy and Leonard looks at 10 pounds bigger then Dan.

yeah but the NBA has never been accurate at keeping tabs on height/weight. Players gain and lose through careers too. I just have a feeling, guys are a bit leaner now (thinner), than they were in the 90's, when they played a most punishing, hand checking style. Not saying the defense was better or more physical, but what you could get away with was far more violent. Shaun Livingston would have died if you attacked the rim against the Pistons, Knicks, or Heat haha.

I think some of it may have to do with all the knowledge of how to handle the rigors of a long season and playoffs. Even LeBron lost some weight, it's too stressing on your body to play a ton of minutes and be all bulked up, for most people anyways.

TylerSL
06-04-2015, 01:06 PM
These threads are really old..........

Anyway to actually answer your question it's doubtful because no one man can do it alone. Jordan didn't have the passing abilities Lebron has so he wouldn't utilize the weapons Cleveland does have the way Lebron does (i.e J.R Smith, Delladova), but rather Jordan would shoot/score more and one man can't do it alone.

koreancabbage
06-04-2015, 01:16 PM
It's the NBA forum. If a thread lasts past the first page without the mention of the Lakers, we'd probably all win a million dollars. It's just never going to happen.

Kobe fan brought up the Lakers.

jerellh528
06-08-2015, 08:22 PM
Doubt it. The warriors are a shooting team at heart though, powered by the long balls of their star guards. It's entirely possible that they go cold for an entire series, improbable but possible. Even still, they're great defensively it would be tough to beat them without a team effort.


its about as likely as lebron james tearing his acl in the first play of game 1, or the cavs plane getting into a plane crash on the way to the bay area.

The argument against warriors because they are a jump shooting team is getting tired.

1) Warriors are the most efficient team in the post season, it isnt even that close.

2) Traditional jump shooting teams dont usually have 2 all nba defensive players (3 if you count iggy who was all nba 1st team last yr as a starter)

3) Warriors lead the league in assists (again by a wide margin)- they can create good scoring opportunities


I think a lot of people who just watch the espn highlights and see steph and klay shooting- assume there is nothing more to this warriors team than good shooting. Additionally- the jump shooting team label works better when you are talking about streaky shooters. Curry might be the most consistently great shooter in history

Told ya they're powered by their jump shots. Their offense and team in general look pedestrian when they're not knocking em down like usual.

Demon11
06-09-2015, 04:32 AM
Haha, I haven't been on this forum for years and I can still see Illusionist and his Laker Posse spewing ******** on here. LMAO. And to the poster who said Kobe is top 5 all time, how can you even say that with the ****ing garbage season Kobe just had. just LAUGHABLE.

Demon11
06-09-2015, 04:32 AM
OH it was Illusionist himself! I can still see he knows absolutely nothing about what he talks about!

IKnowHoops
06-09-2015, 05:00 AM
here what you said

I think buckets is referring to relatively small guys like Thunder Dan, and Joe Dumars vs current guys like Leonard, Butler, and George.

Thunder Dan was a strong 6'6. he was just about the same size as Bulter and Leonard who are listed at 6'6 and 6'7. Like usual you are talking about **** you know nothing about

You missed the first part of our convo when the poster said small and slow. Thunder dan and joe Dumars are smaller(shorter) and slower than Leonard, Butler, and George. Now if you need anymore help connecting the dots, please let me know.

sammyvine
06-09-2015, 06:47 AM
I dont understand the discussions here

Jordan was a better player than James so why couldn't he beat the Warriors if he had a decent team around him?

tmacmamba
06-09-2015, 08:17 AM
With a prime Michael Jordan, the Cavs would easily beat the Warriors in 5 maybe 6 games. I find it laughable when people compare Lebron to Jordan, Jordan will always be the GOAT.

Lebron = Magic Johnson, stop comparing him to Jordan.

http://i.imgur.com/R60SRmQ.png

http://i.imgur.com/3HGCa7j.png

http://i.imgur.com/Uj38cLX.png

Goose17
06-09-2015, 09:01 AM
Told ya they're powered by their jump shots. Their offense and team in general look pedestrian when they're not knocking em down like usual.

They're really not. Stylez was 100% right in everything he said.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-09-2015, 11:43 AM
Haha, I haven't been on this forum for years and I can still see Illusionist and his Laker Posse spewing ******** on here. LMAO. And to the poster who said Kobe is top 5 all time, how can you even say that with the ****ing garbage season Kobe just had. just LAUGHABLE.


You rang??

Kobe is top five, and last year has nothing to do with that. He was injured.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-09-2015, 11:46 AM
I dont understand the discussions here

Jordan was a better player than James so why couldn't he beat the Warriors if he had a decent team around him?


This is psd,the average age of posters on here has gone down over the years. Not to many people have seen Jordan play, so they all think Lebron is the goat.

kyubi256
06-09-2015, 11:55 AM
Jordan would have been a beast in his prime and would likely put up 35/6/7 every game with a close to 50% FG percentage.

But on the other hand, I don't know if he would be better for this team that Lebron James. Lebron may not shoot as well but he averages 8-10 assist and rebounds. And I think his other stats is more beneficial to the team than Jordan's would be.

jerellh528
06-09-2015, 01:51 PM
They're really not. Stylez was 100% right in everything he said.

Yeah it shows. Not.

papipapsmanny
06-09-2015, 02:54 PM
Yes, because I would put him on Curry than Delladova on Thompson and that could be huge for defense. Jordan was an amazing wing defender.

What was amazing about Jordan was that he could be asked to shoot a **** ton and still shoot over 50% that is what made him so great.

I could easily see prime Jordan averaging 36-7-7, while covering curry and limiting his damage.

ewing
06-09-2015, 05:39 PM
You missed the first part of our convo when the poster said small and slow. Thunder dan and joe Dumars are smaller(shorter) and slower than Leonard, Butler, and George. Now if you need anymore help connecting the dots, please let me know.

sorry i was referring to the part where you are making **** up :)

buck4493
06-09-2015, 05:42 PM
I would say either one winning with this team would be the greatest finals win in the history of the NBA, and yeah i think jordan could have them in same position.

smiddy012
06-09-2015, 05:46 PM
he wouldn't even be there to embarrass himself with that scrub cavs team in the finals due to the actual competition he would've lost to in the east in his day .

This.

smiddy012
06-09-2015, 05:51 PM
He'd actually be a great defender on Curry, and had the stamina to compete on both ends all game until the 2nd 3-Peat. So he'd be particularly dangerous against the Warriors. Probably the most dangerous possible player given his skill set. You won't see Lebron on Curry much, and for good reason.

Whether or not they'd be favored (? eh) would be dependent on Kyrie also being 100%. Without that they'd still be dogs, and even with them it would probably be closer to 50/50 at best. The Warriors are extremely ****ing good. Better than teams that have beat Jordan/Pippen's Bulls.

First off, no team beat a Jordan/Pippen Bulls team when MJ was actually there during the regular season. MJ is 24-0 in NBA playoffs with HCA.

Secondly, in agreement, prime MJ is a defensive MVP... Prime MJ is a much better defensive player than LBJ ever was. MJ is clearly the best 2 way player ever.

And before any ten year old Lebron fanboys start acting ********, please look up MJs DMVP year.

smiddy012
06-09-2015, 05:59 PM
Be pretty tough for MJ with such little help. Kobe would have a shot because of his scoring prowess.

Right, because Kobe had more scoring prowess than Kobe? MJ makes Kobe look like a chucker, if you actually look at the stats. Don't confuse shot attempts with shooting percentage.

buck4493
06-09-2015, 06:00 PM
First off, no team beat a Jordan/Pippen Bulls team when MJ was actually there during the regular season. MJ is 24-0 in NBA playoffs with HCA.

Secondly, in agreement, prime MJ is a defensive MVP... Prime MJ is a much better defensive player than LBJ ever was. MJ is clearly the best 2 way player ever.

And before any ten year old Lebron fanboys start acting ********, please look up MJs DMVP year.

Jordan was a phenomenal defensive player, i do think lebron is a damn good defensive player as well.

smiddy012
06-09-2015, 06:01 PM
This warriors team is arguably better than the best Bulls teams in history.

Just when you think PSD can't get any dumber...

buck4493
06-09-2015, 06:06 PM
Just when you think PSD can't get any dumber...

that is absolutely the dumbest comment ever. This Warriors team isn't better than the heat or spurs from a year ago. Let alone one of the greatest dynasties ever in sports

smith&wesson
06-09-2015, 06:24 PM
Jordan and the Cavs in 6....

this era is not the gritty, grind it out, hard nosed basketball era in comparison to when Jordan played. Jordan would have taken over this series offensively.. easily!! who would stop him?

smith&wesson
06-09-2015, 06:26 PM
This warriors team is arguably better than the best Bulls teams in history.

That bulls team won 6 ships wtf are you talking about. And it would have been 8 if Jordan didn't leave for 2 years right in the middle of those 6 ship runs.

maybe you were just kidding, I don't know.

smith&wesson
06-09-2015, 06:35 PM
oh god no. How on earth is the current Cavs team with the Love out, Irving injuries, going to stop the machine that is GS?

Jordan, Wilt, KAJ, wouldn't matter. If the Cavs win a title haha, Bron moves into top 3 ever.

I agree that if the cavs win, Lebron moves in to top three.

But those names highlighted would all have dominated as well. Maybe even more due to match ups. Who would stop KAJ and Wilt? Bogut?, Ezelit?, Speights?

Who would Guard Jordan ? Remember Jordan wasn't the guy looking for a pass, he was the guy that would come drop 50 on you in a playoff game. Iggy wouldn't slow MJ down..

Lebron is dominating in his own right with respect to his over all game, but he isn't dropping 50-60 points like Jordan did vs the Celtics for example.

THE MTL
06-09-2015, 06:40 PM
LeBron is a better all around player. And this Cavs team needs someone who can do it all. Jordan could drop 50pts sure. But he ain't dropping 40pts 16rebs 11assists

Demon11
06-09-2015, 07:53 PM
You rang??

Kobe is top five, and last year has nothing to do with that. He was injured.

In who's book? You and Laker fans? How about I hear it from anyone other than a Laker fan. There are ZERO top 5 nba lists that feature Kobe. Take your homer blinders off. If you are gonna put him top 5, who do you take out of Magic, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq?

jerellh528
06-09-2015, 08:11 PM
LeBron is a better all around player. And this Cavs team needs someone who can do it all. Jordan could drop 50pts sure. But he ain't dropping 40pts 16rebs 11assists

Yeah Jordan has never dropped 69 points, 18rbs, 6 ast, 4 stls, and a block on 63% from the field before. Jordan was only a scorer, that's it.

jerellh528
06-09-2015, 08:13 PM
In who's book? You and Laker fans? How about I hear it from anyone other than a Laker fan. There are ZERO top 5 nba lists that feature Kobe. Take your homer blinders off. If you are gonna put him top 5, who do you take out of Magic, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq?

Magic

FilNugsFan
06-09-2015, 08:27 PM
Had it been Jordan who shot those potential game-winners in Games 1 & 2, both games wouldn't have gone to OT and Cavs would've been up 2-0 going into Game 3. haha

THE MTL
06-09-2015, 09:45 PM
LeBron is a better all around player. And this Cavs team needs someone who can do it all. Jordan could drop 50pts sure. But he ain't dropping 40pts 16rebs 11assists

Yeah Jordan has never dropped 69 points, 18rbs, 6 ast, 4 stls, and a block on 63% from the field before. Jordan was only a scorer, that's it.

I never said that but Lebron is the better all-around player. And that stat line is incredible but you chose the GOAT's best career game.

But Lebron consistently gives you the all-around stats. And their are countless stats about lebron is top player ever to lead his team is pts, assists, rebs and how he's second only to Magic in career TDs and etc and etc.

KnickNyKnick
06-09-2015, 10:59 PM
could Jordan 89 beat Jordan 96?

SLY WILLIAMS
06-10-2015, 12:33 AM
The Jordan who beat the Badboy Pistons and the Knicks suffocating defense would score 40-45 on this GS team with ease. He would do it on 20-25 FGA.

OceanSpray
06-10-2015, 12:38 AM
The Jordan who beat the Badboy Pistons and the Knicks suffocating defense would score 40-45 on this GS team with ease. He would do it on 20-25 FGA.

And your proof is... Boom, you have none. Stop speaking as if you have the answers. YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS, SLY.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-10-2015, 12:46 AM
And your proof is... Boom, you have none. Stop speaking as if you have the answers. YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS, SLY.

Well if you think Golden States defense even compares to the Badboy Pistons or NY Knicks of that era I definitely will not have any answers for you. I can say that with absolute certainty.

Jordan averaged over 33 points in the playoffs for his career on 25 FGA. GS defense does not compare to some of the defenses he faced.

ewing
06-10-2015, 12:50 AM
mchieal jordan is the best basketball player i ever have ever seen.

More-Than-Most
06-10-2015, 12:51 AM
The Jordan who beat the Badboy Pistons and the Knicks suffocating defense would score 40-45 on this GS team with ease. He would do it on 20-25 FGA.

not with this lack of team he wouldnt.

ewing
06-10-2015, 12:52 AM
not with this lack of team he wouldnt.

micheal jordan is the best player i have ever seen

OceanSpray
06-10-2015, 12:54 AM
Well if you think Golden States defense even compares to the Badboy Pistons or NY Knicks of that era I definitely will not have any answers for you. I can say that with absolute certainty.

Jordan averaged over 33 points in the playoffs for his career on 25 FGA. GS defense does not compare to some of the defenses he faced.

Please, stop. Re-read your post again. You said "Jordan would have averaged 40-45 on this team with 20-25 FGA." That doesn't prove how Jordan will win this series. You're forgetting LeBron is averaging 12 rebounds and 8 assists for this series. Jordan won't do that. Let me ask you, will Jordan have beaten those Finals teams without (first three rings, would he win without Pippen/Grant)? Last three rings, would he win without Rodman/Pippen? Because that is what James is working with right now.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-10-2015, 01:02 AM
micheal jordan is the best player i have ever seen

He was the best player any of us has ever seen. I hated the guy but it is what it is. Our Knicks and the Pistons had two extremely suffocating defenses. They tried everything to stop him and failed in the end.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 01:26 AM
He was the best player any of us has ever seen. I hated the guy but it is what it is. Our Knicks and the Pistons had two extremely suffocating defenses. They tried everything to stop him and failed in the end.

Actually, the Pistons back to back rings came with an average defensive rating of 104. The Knicks had around 103 drtg for the years MJ played them. This Warriors team drtg was 101, so they were more suffocating.

The Knicks did have 2 great seasons of drtg of 98 and 99 but but those were the two years he was retired so he didnt face them at their best.

League average says defense has been the best in history from 99 to today as far as not allowing points to be scored which is the name of the game.

JordansBulls
06-10-2015, 01:28 AM
Actually, the Pistons back to back rings came with an average defensive rating of 104. The Knicks had around 103 drtg for the years MJ played them. This Warriors team drtg was 101, so they were more suffocating.

The Knicks did have 2 great seasons of drtg of 98 and 99 but but those were the two years he was retired so he didnt face them at their best.

League average says defense has been the best in history from 99 to today as far as not allowing points to be scored which is the name of the game.

Defensive rating doesn't work well when you are comparing it to offenses in the league now compared to then. Offenses were simply better than. So better offenses will mean of course your defensive rating will be higher as it would be harder to stop a team that can score better.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 01:52 AM
Defensive rating doesn't work well when you are comparing it to offenses in the league now compared to then. Offenses were simply better than. So better offenses will mean of course your defensive rating will be higher as it would be harder to stop a team that can score better.

Actually offensive production has gotten smarter than ever due to the realization that the 3 ball is the far more benificial shot over the mid range. The problem is that defensive schemes and data has inreased just as much if not more. They now know where players excel and struggle from certain areas on the floor, how they are in catch and shoot, pick and roll, pick and pop and post up situations. They zone out big men who can post up not allow them to do what they do best. They load up the strong side to force players to swing it around or shoot long contested jumpers.

The game evolves with every generation. In 10 years those player's will have more information and training techniques than today's player ever dreamed of.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 01:57 AM
As far as the question, Jordan could do any and everything Lebron can do. If Lebron can beat this team, so can Jordan. Its MJ, Wilt, and Lebron who are basically the best talents the game has ever seen. I would put Shaq in there for a smaller run but he couldn't sustain it.

OceanSpray
06-10-2015, 01:58 AM
Actually offensive production has gotten smarter than ever due to the realization that the 3 ball is the far more benificial shot over the mid range. The problem is that defensive schemes and data has inreased just as much if not more. They now know where players excel and struggle from certain areas in the floor, how they are in catch and shoot, pick and roll, pick and pop and post up situations. They zone out big men who can post to not show them to do what they do best, they load up the strong side to force players to swing it around or shoot long contested jumpers.

The game evolves with every generation. In 10 years those player's will have more information and training techniques than today's player ever dreamed of.

Exactly. This is why Kobe always gets trashed when compared to Jordan. Jordan is better, great. But Kobe is playing in two completely different eras. He's playing when centers dominated the paint and also, when shooters dominate the game. Jordan played ONE way, the same the others played. Now, you have teams that in one season, shoots more threes than some teams shoot in four seasons. Everything is recorded. Guys are getting paid to figure out which and which is best for this and that. The game is undoubtedly much more complex than before. I challenge anyone to tell me the game isn't more complete today than before.

jerellh528
06-10-2015, 02:16 AM
I never said that but Lebron is the better all-around player. And that stat line is incredible but you chose the GOAT's best career game.

But Lebron consistently gives you the all-around stats. And their are countless stats about lebron is top player ever to lead his team is pts, assists, rebs and how he's second only to Magic in career TDs and etc and etc.

How do you quote within a quote like that?

naps
06-10-2015, 02:20 AM
MJ is the GOAT but I don't he would be beating this warriors team with this Cavs roster minus Kyrie and Love. LeBron is just a god at playing with a bunch of no-names. Cavs players that are actually playing minutes have basically no playoffs experiences. What LeBron is doing right now with this roster is unheard of in modern era of basketball.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 02:28 AM
Exactly. This is why Kobe always gets trashed when compared to Jordan. Jordan is better, great. But Kobe is playing in two completely different eras. He's playing when centers dominated the paint and also, when shooters dominate the game. Jordan played ONE way, the same the others played. Now, you have teams that in one season, shoots more threes than some teams shoot in four seasons. Everything is recorded. Guys are getting paid to figure out which and which is best for this and that. The game is undoubtedly much more complex than before. I challenge anyone to tell me the game isn't more complete today than before.
I love Kobe, and in my opinion he has played in the toughest era. But Jordan would have fared much better than Kobe if he was in this era as well. Better athlete, bigger hands, etc... But yes, todays era is the peak of the NBA. In ten years, they will be better. We just have to acknowledge that yesterday's players were the foundation for today and tomorrow. Jordan wasn't given the info that today's players get. I would imagine he would work on his 3 point shooting a lot more than his mid range as he got older. Imagine his stats then? Yikes!

The dream team back in 92 is what created the international boom that we see today. The Talent pool is world wide now. It makes this era tougher, but it's thanks to yesterday's players.

ewing
06-10-2015, 10:21 AM
Actually offensive production has gotten smarter than ever due to the realization that the 3 ball is the far more benificial shot over the mid range. The problem is that defensive schemes and data has inreased just as much if not more. They now know where players excel and struggle from certain areas on the floor, how they are in catch and shoot, pick and roll, pick and pop and post up situations. They zone out big men who can post up not allow them to do what they do best. They load up the strong side to force players to swing it around or shoot long contested jumpers.

The game evolves with every generation. In 10 years those player's will have more information and training techniques than today's player ever dreamed of.



actually in 10 years the game will be pretty similar the jerking off on the internet will be insane though

hidalgo
06-10-2015, 10:37 AM
As far as the question, Jordan could do any and everything Lebron can do. If Lebron can beat this team, so can Jordan. Its MJ, Wilt, and Lebron who are basically the best talents the game has ever seen. I would put Shaq in there for a smaller run but he couldn't sustain it.agreed

THE MTL
06-10-2015, 12:09 PM
As far as the question, Jordan could do any and everything Lebron can do. If Lebron can beat this team, so can Jordan. Its MJ, Wilt, and Lebron who are basically the best talents the game has ever seen. I would put Shaq in there for a smaller run but he couldn't sustain it.

I'm not going to say that MJ couldn't beat this Warriors team.

But do not say that MJ can do everything Lebron James can do cause he cant. The way Lebron makes his teammates better is unmatched.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2015, 12:14 PM
As far as the question, Jordan could do any and everything Lebron can do. If Lebron can beat this team, so can Jordan. Its MJ, Wilt, and Lebron who are basically the best talents the game has ever seen. I would put Shaq in there for a smaller run but he couldn't sustain it.

false. There are things Jordan was better at, and there are things LeBron is better at. LeBron is the best combination of size/ball handling/passing we have ever seen, by a relatively large margin. People will respond with Magic, but we are talking about a guy Karl Malone's size, who can handle and pass like an elite PG.

ManRam
06-10-2015, 12:20 PM
I don't get the fascination with these hypotheticals.

Fact 1: Jordan never won with this little help
Fact 2: Jordan is a better player than LeBron
Fact 3: Jordan can do lots of things LeBron can't
Fact 4: LeBron can do things Jordan can't
Fact 5: We're all way too obsessed with comparing players

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 01:02 PM
I'm not going to say that MJ couldn't beat this Warriors team.

But do not say that MJ can do everything Lebron James can do cause he cant. The way Lebron makes his teammates better is unmatched.

When you say "makes his teammates better", what do you mean? How do you think he goes about it? Would you say his passing makes them better? His assist numbers?

ewing
06-10-2015, 01:10 PM
false. There are things Jordan was better at, and there are things LeBron is better at. LeBron is the best combination of size/ball handling/passing we have ever seen, by a relatively large margin. People will respond with Magic, but we are talking about a guy Karl Malone's size, who can handle and pass like an elite PG.


people would be right to respond with Magic. LeBron has more mass and is a much better scorer however Magic was 6'9 capable of playing PF and was a much better passer. Great players possess a combination of skills that you normally don't see. This is true for Magic, for LeBron, and for Micheal.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 01:11 PM
false. There are things Jordan was better at, and there are things LeBron is better at. LeBron is the best combination of size/ball handling/passing we have ever seen, by a relatively large margin. People will respond with Magic, but we are talking about a guy Karl Malone's size, who can handle and pass like an elite PG.
when I say he could do anything LeBron can do, I am referring to team accomplishment and team success. LeBron can shoot the 3 better than Jordan because Jordan didn't practice that. But I feel Jordan was the better all around player

As far as you saying he is a passer like an elite point guard, I am not sure about that. He is a great passer for a scorer. But there are many better passers who don't turn it over as much as he does and get better assist rates.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2015, 01:12 PM
people would be right to respond with Magic. LeBron has more mass and is a much better scorer however Magic was 6'9 capable of playing PF and was a much better passer. Great players possess a combination of skills that you normally don't see. This is true for Magic, for LeBron, and for Micheal.

which is why I clarified what "size" meant.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2015, 01:14 PM
when I say he could do anything LeBron can do, I am referring to team accomplishment and team success. LeBron can shoot the 3 better than Jordan because Jordan didn't practice that. But I feel Jordan was the better all around player

As far as you saying he is a passer like an elite point guard I am not sure about that. He is a great passer for a scorer. But there are many better passers who don't turn it over as much as he does and get better assist rates.

why would team anything matter when comparing individuals?

I think Michael is the better player too.

He is the best passing forward in league history in all likelihood. Guys his size typically are PF's, yet he is basically his teams PG.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 01:21 PM
why would team anything matter when comparing individuals?

I think Michael is the better player too.

He is the best passing forward in league history in all likelihood. Guys his size typically are PF's, yet he is basically his teams PG.

the post you quoted I was answering the question of the thread regarding if MJ could win with this cast. I was not comparing them individually as players in that post. I only did once you brought it up

joedaheights
06-10-2015, 01:35 PM
the post you quoted I was answering the question of the thread regarding if MJ could win with this cast. I was not comparing them individually as players in that post. I only did once you brought it up

Yes Kobe and Lebron fans are never comparing. They're always walking like a duck, talking like a duck and then claiming they're a turtle.

joedaheights
06-10-2015, 01:53 PM
Yes. How could you watch the 91 finals and think otherwise

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-10-2015, 02:24 PM
Yes Kobe and Lebron fans are never comparing. They're always walking like a duck, talking like a duck and then claiming they're a turtle.

I don't know who you are, I don't know what that means, but I can tell I don't like you already. Never quote me again and buzz off

ewing
06-10-2015, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE=joedaheights;30037063]Yes Kobe and Lebron fans are never comparing. They're always walking like a duck, talking like a duck and then claiming they're a turtle.[/QUOTE


Don't worry, i like u

papipapsmanny
06-10-2015, 04:00 PM
Offense wasn't better back then and you're clueless to think so. The amount of weapons today is enormous. You have Curry pulling up for three and doing stepbacks like nothing. Stop embarrassing yourself here.

yeah but the game has also been pussified today. Lebron whines about calls today, I think he would have been crying of he played in the 80s and 90s.

Hawkeye15
06-10-2015, 04:04 PM
yeah but the game has also been pussified today. Lebron whines about calls today, I think he would have been crying of he played in the 80s and 90s.

in the 80s when nobody defended, or in the 90's where his physical strength would have made him be able to finish in the open lane? Remember, hand checking was efficient, but not against a guy who gets to use his off hand to push you off, and he is bigger.

You adapt to the times. Whining gets calls, all stars do it.

papipapsmanny
06-10-2015, 04:10 PM
in the 80s when nobody defended, or in the 90's where his physical strength would have made him be able to finish in the open lane? Remember, hand checking was efficient, but not against a guy who gets to use his off hand to push you off, and he is bigger.

You adapt to the times. Whining gets calls, all stars do it.

Wait what stop trying to ignore things. They didn't have defensive 3 seconds then. That means Ewing, Shaq, The Dream, Robinson, guys like that could stay down there, and not Lebron isn't bigger than any of those guys, and the the lane wasn't so open.

Bad Boys would have roughed up Lebron too

papipapsmanny
06-10-2015, 04:19 PM
Lebron is great but people are giving him a pass for his inefficiency because of his high usage.

Lebron is averaging 26.8 shots per game on 42.2% shooting for 29.9 points per game in 17 games

Jordan for example in 92 averaged 26.4 shots a game on 49.9% shooting for 34.5 points a game in 22 games... that's why Jordan is the best, he could be used all the time, and like Lebron, everyone knew it was going to happen and he would still shoot basically 50%.

But compared to 92 Lebrons is averaging about 4 more rebounds and 2.5 more assist a game, and almost matches Jordan's steals per game, so perhaps thats makes up for him scoring less and being less effiecient. Perhaps not

Lebron is great, Jordan is just better. These finals aren't even over so Lebron hasn't won anything yet, so why compare if Jordan can do it?

Chronz
06-10-2015, 04:21 PM
Whats the greatest upset MJ ever pulled off tho?