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Shammyguy3
05-20-2015, 08:30 PM
Each year PSD users on the forum partake in a fantasy snake-draft consisting of all-time players. Players are designated for certain eras based on their peak, and we've used a general 5 year prime to try and rank players overall value (so try and vote based on that 5-year peak as best you can). After the draft, opposing conferences voted for playoff ranking. So, given the two rosters below, if they were to face in real life (with every player in their 5-year prime), which team would win in the 7-game series?

2. Azkaban (Home-Court Advantage)
PG: Chris Paul - Gilbert Arenas
SG: Michael Cooper - Tony Allen
SF: George Gervin - Tayshaun Prince
PF: Dennis Rodman - Serge Ibaka
C: David Robinson - Jeff Ruland


3. Brampton
PG: Walt Frazier (36) / Jason Terry (12)
SG: David Thompson (33) / Raja Bell (10) / Jason Terry (5)
SF: Paul Pierce (35) / Walter Davis (13)
PF: Chris Bosh (32) / Elton Brand (16)
C: Wilt Chamberlain (38) / Ralph Sampson (10)

Azkaban's write-up


Chris Paul vs Walt Frazier
Their 5-year primes are below
Chris Paul '08-'12: 19.7ppg 10.5apg 4.3rpg 58.4ts% 48.9ast% 6.9trb% 0.263 WS/48 26.8 PER
Walt Frazier '69-'73: 20.9ppg 6.9apg 6.6rpg 56.0ts% 23.7ast% 8.0trb% 0.216 WS/48 20.4 PER

Their career playoff numbers are below
Chris Paul: 2039ppg 9.5apg 4.8rpg 58.4ts% 44.8ast% 7.3trb% 0.200 WS/48 25.1 PER
Walt Frazier: 20.7ppg 6.4apg 7.2rpg 55.7ts% 22.0ast% 8.4trb% 0.193 WS/48 19.8 PER

Chris Paul is more efficient, a more dynamic offensive threat thanks to his pick & roll game, and a far superior passer. Frazier is just the better rebounder, and that isn't even by that much when you look at their rebounding rates and factor in Frazier played 40.2mpg pushing up his per game numbers, and Chris Paul only played 37.3mpg.

Michael Cooper vs David Thompson
Cooper's perhaps the greatest perimeter defender, one of only a handful of wings sporting a DPOY award. David Thompson is definitely a very good offensive player, sporting a 5-year prime ('77-'81) 25.2ppg 3.6apg and 4.1rpg on a 56.7ts% 16.0ast% 0.162 WS/48 and 20.5 PER. However when the games started to matter come playoff time in the NBA league, his efficiency numbers dropped big time to only a 50.8ts% 17.0 PER and 0.083 WS/48.

So even though Thompson's a scorer, his efficiency isn't all that impressive and he'll be seeing a combination of wing defenders in Michael Cooper, Tony Allen, and Tayshaun Prince. I expect his scoring efficiency numbers to actually drop when being seen by the wing defense he's going up against (ESPECIALLY when you factor in the defensive bigs I have which will make him scoring in the paint a living hell, a hell where he'll have to be content with because he's not exactly a floor spacer).

George Gervin vs Paul Pierce
Boy this would be a fun matchup, but Gervin is definitely the far superior scorer and the far greater talent. Here are their 5-year primes below
George Gervin '78-'82: 29.8ppg 2.9apg 5.1rpg 57.7ts% 13.1ast% 7.6trb% 0.185 WS/48 23.8 PER
Paul Pierce '02-'06: 24.7ppg 4.3apg 6.8rpg 55.6ts% 21.7ast% 10.1trb% 0.163 WS/48 22.0 PER

Their career playoff numbers are below (in NBA league only)
George Gervin: 27.0ppg 3.2apg 5.8rpg 56.4s% 13.3ast% 8.2trb% 0.138 WS/48 21.0 PER
Paul Pierce: 20.0ppg 3.6apg 6.1rpg 55.5ts% 18.0ast% 9.5trb% 0.129 WS/48 17.5 PER

Now, Pierce is one of those players that has such a long "peak" it's hard to define where it is. So just to be fair to Brampton, here are his peak numbers when on those contending Celtics teams
Regular Season: 19.3ppg 3.8apg 5.2rpg 59.6ts% 18.5ast% 8.8trb% 0.181 WS/48 18.9 PER
Playoffs: 19.6ppg 3.6apg 5.6rpg 55.5ts% 16.9ast% 8.8trb% 0.125 WS/48 16.5 PER

Now it's only fair to see what Gervin's prime was in the playoffs:
Playoffs : 28.9ppg 2.9apg 6.3rpg 57.8ts% 12.6ast% 8.6trb% 0.196 WS/48 24.6 PER


Like I said before, Gervin is just a far superior scorer. He not only does it on far greater volume, he does so far more efficiently. His prime in the playoffs puts Pierce's prime with those great Celtics teams to shame.

Dennis Rodman vs Chris Bosh
Does anyone think that Bosh would actually survive this series being guarded by Rodman? With how great Rodman was with physical defense and getting into the opponent's head, Bosh would shrivel up. Rodman's ability to guard both in the post and on the perimeter makes even Bosh's all-around offensive game obsolete. Bosh is also notoriously weak on the boards, and he's going up against the greatest rebounder we've ever seen. I could go into some statistics but I don't think it's all-that necessary to discern who will win this matchup in a 7-game series.


David Robinson versus Wilt Chamberlain
This is the only position where Brampton can win. So let me post some prime numbers below **note: i am using per36 metrics here because Wilt's prime he averaged 47mpg, which just simply would never happen in a modern era game**:

Prime Regular Season Numbers
Wilt '60-'64 (per 36): 31.7ppg 2.3apg 19.2rpg 52.8ts% 0.272 WS/48 30.3 PER
Admiral '91-'95 (per 36): 24.2ppg 3.1apg 10.9rpg 3.4bpg 1.6spg 59.1ts% 14.7ast% 16.9trb% 5.9blk% 2.3stl% 0.258 WS/48 27.8 PER

Prime Playoff Numbers
Wilt '60-'64 (per 36): 26.5ppg 2.1apg 19.6rpg 51.5ts% 0.274 WS/48 29.3 PER
Admiral '91-'95 (per 36): 21.1ppg 2.9apg 10.7rpg 2.7bpg 1.1spg 54.7ts% 14.4ast% 17.0trb% 5.3blk% 1.6stl% 0.174 WS/48 22.7 PER

Wilt With the Lakers in the Playoffs
46.8 minutes per game! Only -15.8ppg 22.3rpg 3.6apg 52.6ts% 0.155 WS/48 18.5 PER

Wilt's numbers in an era where you play every second of every game at a really high pace look awesome, until you actually try and break it down to view it in a more modern era. When you do that, they're still god-like but he is NOT this beast that cannot be slowed down. Perhaps he's a victim of his era for that, but that's up to you voters to decide. I'd just like to point out how much of an OFFENSIVE force David Robinson was: he's lead the league in WS/48 five times in his career, lead the league in PER three times in his career, and yes even lead the league in scoring once in his career.

So while Wilt has the greater raw per game numbers, the greater legacy, all that good stuff: David Robinson needs his credit. He is a more efficient offensive player (whether or not he played in a different era or not, that is true based on the above metrics) that played in an era absolutely littered with defensive bigs in the 90s.


The Skinny Minny
I just question the overall efficiency of this Brampton team against my all-world defense. I have all-nba 1st team defenders at 4 of my starting positions, I have 3 starters that have all won DPOY awards, and my bench can give my starters breathers as well in that department. Factor in the limited spacing this Brampton team has in terms of shooters (if Bosh is being used as this "stretch 4" let's not forget he's a career 32.6%, but even his best years in Miami he posted only a 33.5% from beyond the arc. That's not good, at all. And it won't stretch the floor out, putting so much more pressure on Paul Pierce to just shoot from the perimeter).

My 3 best scorers CP3/Gervin/Robinson have been one of the more efficient players in their eras, not just at their positions. I have 2 monster 30ppg capable scorers in Iceman/Admiral and I have perhaps the greatest all-around point guard in Chris Paul being able to distribute on the fast break (which my defense/rebounding will cause MANY), in the pick & roll, and stretch the floor for cutters/post-up games.

Lastly - Dennis Rodman and Michael Cooper ARE offensive threats to this Brampton team: Rodman's CAREER offensive rebounding rate of 17.2% and his 5-year prime offensive board rate of 18.5% is superior to Bosh's total rebounding rate of 14.2% and his 5-year prime total rebounding rate of only 15.5%.

So I'll be having a plethora of high-efficient possessions, capped off by dozens of second-chance opportunities thanks to my rebounding. And those second-chance points can be capitalized by both Gervin/Robinson, but also by Chris Paul and Michael Cooper who respectively have posted 37.8% and 35.8% from deep in their 5-year primes.


In the end, my defense is far superior to Brampton. And my offense is highly efficient compared to theirs, especially when factoring in the offensive rebounding and 3 point shooting of my guards. Azkaban wins this series.


Brampton's Write-Up

The key matchup is obviously Wilt vs Robinson, and we definitely feel like we have the advantage there. Wilt is just a better player, especially in the post-season, where DRob famously falls off from his regular season production (his FG% falls to 48%, which is pretty lousy and inefficient for a high scoring Center). We’ve seen DRob taken advantage of by a superior player in Hakeem Olajuwon in playoff series, so there’s no reason to think that DRob wouldn’t have trouble with an even greater offensive force in Wilt Chamberlain.

Surrounding DRob on the offensive end are 2 complete offensive liabilities in Rodman and Cooper. These guys are obviously great role players but their lack of spacing and shooting hurts DRob and CP3. We can close the paint so much easier with Rodman and Cooper on the floor with that lack of spacing. Even Gervin doesn’t shoot 3’s. The lane will be really clogged with their starting lineup on the floor and it’ll make it very tough for Azkaban to score on our interior D. Azkaban is akin to the Memphis Grizzlies of 2015 somewhat, where they really struggled to score vs Golden State because they really lacked the shooting prowess to space out the defense. Golden State just packed the paint on the Memphis bigs with Bogut, Barnes, and Green.

Gervin is obviously a great offensive threat as well, but we have Pierce guarding him who’s a worthy enough defensive player to fit that assignment. Of course Pierce won’t “shut down” Gervin, but we feel that Gervin could also be hurt with the lack of spacing Azkaban provides, with only Chris Paul able to shoot 3’s at a decent level (career 36% on low volume for a guard, which is pretty average). Our team defense can help limit Gervin’s slashing and render him a mid-range shooter if we’re packing the paint against their limited offense. Raja Bell is also a great on-ball defender who can bother “not shut down” Gervin, making life hard on him with the limited spacing.

Guarding Chris Paul is obviously a tough task, but we have the perfect defender to defend him in Walt Frazier, who’s an all-time great PG and arguably the best defensive PG at all time. Frazier has the size to bother Paul with his shooting, and the instincts to keep up with Chris Paul on some possessions. Chris will obviously get his production at times, but again, the lack of spacing hurts what we think will be the biggest Azkaban go-to play, and CP3/DRob pick n roll. We will go over screens on all CP3/Drob PnR’s trying to force him to drive into the crowded paint, where we’ll have Bosh and Thompson completely off of Cooper and Rodman, making it tough for Cp3 to create plays on the offensive end.

On offense, we know it’ll be tough with all of the defensive stalwarts on Azkaban, but our team can handle it with our 5 threat lineup. Every player on our lineup has averaged over 21 ppg at some point during their careers and we have the talent to put up enough points. We mentioned the advantage we have at Center with Wilt being better than DRob, but another big advantage we have is at the wing spot. Whoever is being guarded by Gervin, who isn’t known for his defense, will have big success. If Azkaban wants to put Cooper on the bigger Pierce, we’ll gladly invite it. Pierce has 2 inches and at least 30 pounds on him and can easily shoot over Cooper. This also makes it easier on David Thompson who can easily score on the defensively challenged Gervin.

Frazier and Bosh also have tough defenders on them, but they have clear size advantages against their matchups (Rodman and Paul), making it easier to post them up, and/or shoot over. Bosh may have some trouble against Rodman at times, but he has the size, and the great triple-threat ability to keep Rodman off balance. Frazier has 2 great pick n roll threats in Wilt and Bosh (who provides great pick and pop shooting) to also keep Azkaban off balance. Our team can attack in so many different ways, which is what makes us so dangerous.

On the bench, we feel like we have a clear advantage as well. Their bench doesn’t provide any spacing at all. Gilbert can shoot, but he has the ball in his hands all the time so he isn’t really spacing anything. The other wing players for Azkaban don’t shoot 3’s, so we can easily maintain our “pack the paint” philosophy. Prince is a low volume shooter, and Allen, as we all know, is a woeful shooter. Serge is a great mid-range threat but those shots can be given up. If they want to shoot mid-range shots with Serge Ibaka then they can be our guests.

Our bench brings in another element, with more shooting, and a great pick n roll player in Jason Terry. We also have great post-up threats in Brand and Sampson, who can also make good pick and roll threats with Terry. Raja Bell provides the (3/D) solid defense and great 3pt shooting, to contribute, and Walter Davis is another capable offensive threat who averaged 20+ PPG in his prime and was a great mid-range shooter that also famously was a fast break threat.

In conclusion, Azkaban can have all the defense it wants, but if they don’t have the personnel to score, they aren’t a big enough threat to beat us. They have great defenders, but we have great offensive players to counter that. Our whole lineup has averaged 21+ ppg in their primes and were supremely efficient in doing so. Nobody can be left unaccounted for, even on our bench, unlike Azkaban who have several 1-way players who are none threats on the offensive end. We have the philosophy, and the supreme length on defense to bother their stars. They only have 4 players who can be seriously counted on for points. Everyone else is an afterthought, making them so much easier to guard. Brampton feels they can win the series comfortably in 6 games.

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 10:51 AM
no comments on this matchup? :pity:

Killerjug
05-21-2015, 10:59 AM
it's close :)

Sadds The Gr8
05-21-2015, 11:32 AM
no comments on this matchup? :pity:

yea i was waiting for ppl to comment but i'll guess i'll start this off.

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 12:17 PM
yea i was waiting for ppl to comment but i'll guess i'll start this off.

and i'll follow your lead :) how's your day?

Sadds The Gr8
05-21-2015, 12:22 PM
Chris Paul vs Walt Frazier
Their 5-year primes are below
Chris Paul '08-'12: 19.7ppg 10.5apg 4.3rpg 58.4ts% 48.9ast% 6.9trb% 0.263 WS/48 26.8 PER
Walt Frazier '69-'73: 20.9ppg 6.9apg 6.6rpg 56.0ts% 23.7ast% 8.0trb% 0.216 WS/48 20.4 PER

Their career playoff numbers are below
Chris Paul: 2039ppg 9.5apg 4.8rpg 58.4ts% 44.8ast% 7.3trb% 0.200 WS/48 25.1 PER
Walt Frazier: 20.7ppg 6.4apg 7.2rpg 55.7ts% 22.0ast% 8.4trb% 0.193 WS/48 19.8 PER

Chris Paul is more efficient, a more dynamic offensive threat thanks to his pick & roll game, and a far superior passer. Frazier is just the better rebounder, and that isn't even by that much when you look at their rebounding rates and factor in Frazier played 40.2mpg pushing up his per game numbers, and Chris Paul only played 37.3mpg.

No doubt that Paul is the more efficient player but the setup of your team hurts the offense. The Clippers (who have 3-4 very efficient players) just lost to the Rockets (who have 2, with a bunch of guys who aren't efficient at all) with because they essentially had players who couldn't shoot anymore at the end of the series (Barnes, Redick, Crawford, Rivers), not to mention he was being guarded by old *** Terry, who doesn't have anywhere close to the same credentials defensively that Frazier does. The Rockets only had to defend 2 of the stars which made it a whole lot easier. this is how I see the matchup with our teams playing. Efficiency doesn't matter if there are 2 complete liabilities on the court that I barely have to guard. I addressed how we can really limit the CP3 pnr in my writeup which u can rebut if u want.


Michael Cooper vs David Thompson
Cooper's perhaps the greatest perimeter defender, one of only a handful of wings sporting a DPOY award. David Thompson is definitely a very good offensive player, sporting a 5-year prime ('77-'81) 25.2ppg 3.6apg and 4.1rpg on a 56.7ts% 16.0ast% 0.162 WS/48 and 20.5 PER. However when the games started to matter come playoff time in the NBA league, his efficiency numbers dropped big time to only a 50.8ts% 17.0 PER and 0.083 WS/48.

So even though Thompson's a scorer, his efficiency isn't all that impressive and he'll be seeing a combination of wing defenders in Michael Cooper, Tony Allen, and Tayshaun Prince. I expect his scoring efficiency numbers to actually drop when being seen by the wing defense he's going up against (ESPECIALLY when you factor in the defensive bigs I have which will make him scoring in the paint a living hell, a hell where he'll have to be content with because he's not exactly a floor spacer).
He was the #1 option on a team without much talent at all. All he played with was Issel, who was coming out of his prime, and George Mcginnis, who was washed up at that point. It'll be easier on this team to be more efficient. We have the offensive support to take the load off of him. Plus on the reverse side, Cooper is a complete non-threat and you haven't addressed. In theory it seems nice to say that you'll just put Cooper on Thompson to try and erase his offense (which there is some ridiculous notion on psd that if you have defensive accolades you can automatically "shut down" great offensive players, which is dumb) but on the other hand, Cooper is a non-threat that I hardly even have to guard. It opens things up for other players on my team making my offense easier to run.


George Gervin vs Paul Pierce
Boy this would be a fun matchup, but Gervin is definitely the far superior scorer and the far greater talent. Here are their 5-year primes below
George Gervin '78-'82: 29.8ppg 2.9apg 5.1rpg 57.7ts% 13.1ast% 7.6trb% 0.185 WS/48 23.8 PER
Paul Pierce '02-'06: 24.7ppg 4.3apg 6.8rpg 55.6ts% 21.7ast% 10.1trb% 0.163 WS/48 22.0 PER

Their career playoff numbers are below (in NBA league only)
George Gervin: 27.0ppg 3.2apg 5.8rpg 56.4s% 13.3ast% 8.2trb% 0.138 WS/48 21.0 PER
Paul Pierce: 20.0ppg 3.6apg 6.1rpg 55.5ts% 18.0ast% 9.5trb% 0.129 WS/48 17.5 PER

Now, Pierce is one of those players that has such a long "peak" it's hard to define where it is. So just to be fair to Brampton, here are his peak numbers when on those contending Celtics teams
Regular Season: 19.3ppg 3.8apg 5.2rpg 59.6ts% 18.5ast% 8.8trb% 0.181 WS/48 18.9 PER
Playoffs: 19.6ppg 3.6apg 5.6rpg 55.5ts% 16.9ast% 8.8trb% 0.125 WS/48 16.5 PER

Now it's only fair to see what Gervin's prime was in the playoffs:
Playoffs : 28.9ppg 2.9apg 6.3rpg 57.8ts% 12.6ast% 8.6trb% 0.196 WS/48 24.6 PER


Like I said before, Gervin is just a far superior scorer. He not only does it on far greater volume, he does so far more efficiently. His prime in the playoffs puts Pierce's prime with those great Celtics teams to shame.
Again, same thing with Chris Paul vs Frazier. Yes Gervin is the more efficient player but it hardly matters when you have no spacing around him to relieve the pressure (your bench doesn't feature much shooting either to support your starters). It'll be tough for Gervin to slash, and he'll have to settle for alot of contested mid-range jumpers since the inside will be clogged. We essentially just have 3 threats to worry about, and 2-3 main actions which are CP3 PnR and Gervin isolating or coming off screens. Plus Paul is better on D from what I read. He can give it back to Gervin on the other end. Pierce is one of the most clutch players of the modern era and is a dangerous threat in close games.


Dennis Rodman vs Chris Bosh
Does anyone think that Bosh would actually survive this series being guarded by Rodman? With how great Rodman was with physical defense and getting into the opponent's head, Bosh would shrivel up. Rodman's ability to guard both in the post and on the perimeter makes even Bosh's all-around offensive game obsolete. Bosh is also notoriously weak on the boards, and he's going up against the greatest rebounder we've ever seen. I could go into some statistics but I don't think it's all-that necessary to discern who will win this matchup in a 7-game series.
Bosh will be featured in PnR's and spotting up outside, which helps limit the rebounding of Rodman. There's no way that Rodman can completely wipe-out Bosh from a series. He can probably do it for some games, but Bosh is too great to get locked down in every game. Bosh can easily have 3 solid games which is more than enough. He's probably the most versatile big-man of his era with his ability to shoot 3's, kill from mid-range, face-up, pick n roll, post-up, and so on. On the other side of the ball, like i've mentioned, Rodman is a complete non-factor. Bosh can help load up on DRob and make it even harder for him to score, and also just seek out the 2 slashers to help defend in Paul and Gervin. Getting away with 1 liability on offense is doable, but 2??????


David Robinson versus Wilt Chamberlain
This is the only position where Brampton can win. So let me post some prime numbers below **note: i am using per36 metrics here because Wilt's prime he averaged 47mpg, which just simply would never happen in a modern era game**:

Prime Regular Season Numbers
Wilt '60-'64 (per 36): 31.7ppg 2.3apg 19.2rpg 52.8ts% 0.272 WS/48 30.3 PER
Admiral '91-'95 (per 36): 24.2ppg 3.1apg 10.9rpg 3.4bpg 1.6spg 59.1ts% 14.7ast% 16.9trb% 5.9blk% 2.3stl% 0.258 WS/48 27.8 PER

Prime Playoff Numbers
Wilt '60-'64 (per 36): 26.5ppg 2.1apg 19.6rpg 51.5ts% 0.274 WS/48 29.3 PER
Admiral '91-'95 (per 36): 21.1ppg 2.9apg 10.7rpg 2.7bpg 1.1spg 54.7ts% 14.4ast% 17.0trb% 5.3blk% 1.6stl% 0.174 WS/48 22.7 PER

Wilt With the Lakers in the Playoffs
46.8 minutes per game! Only -15.8ppg 22.3rpg 3.6apg 52.6ts% 0.155 WS/48 18.5 PER

Wilt's numbers in an era where you play every second of every game at a really high pace look awesome, until you actually try and break it down to view it in a more modern era. When you do that, they're still god-like but he is NOT this beast that cannot be slowed down. Perhaps he's a victim of his era for that, but that's up to you voters to decide. I'd just like to point out how much of an OFFENSIVE force David Robinson was: he's lead the league in WS/48 five times in his career, lead the league in PER three times in his career, and yes even lead the league in scoring once in his career.

So while Wilt has the greater raw per game numbers, the greater legacy, all that good stuff: David Robinson needs his credit. He is a more efficient offensive player (whether or not he played in a different era or not, that is true based on the above metrics) that played in an era absolutely littered with defensive bigs in the 90s.
Yes, the typical "Wilt played in a weak era" narrative will always work against him, but he clearly had the tools to be successful in the modern NBA and obviously was ahead of his time. It's impossible to put up the ridiculous #s and not be able to play in any era. Like I mentioned, Drob was known for coming up small in the playoffs. His teams were disappointments in the playoffs time-after-time. Wilt was clearly out of his prime with the Lakers so bringing that up isn't very reasonable. We can cherrypick those out-of-prime stats for 95% of the people in this game. In his prime Wilt was a beast that put up similar #s in the post-season to the regular season. He's just clearly a better offensive player than Robinson and there's a reason he's considered the most dominant Center ever. He'll definitely outplay Drob in this series, especially considering the offensive support he gets. Drob will have an elite defender on him, combined with a crowded paint and loads of help defense to deal with due to lack of offensive support and spacing.


The Skinny Minny
I just question the overall efficiency of this Brampton team against my all-world defense. I have all-nba 1st team defenders at 4 of my starting positions, I have 3 starters that have all won DPOY awards, and my bench can give my starters breathers as well in that department. Factor in the limited spacing this Brampton team has in terms of shooters (if Bosh is being used as this "stretch 4" let's not forget he's a career 32.6%, but even his best years in Miami he posted only a 33.5% from beyond the arc. That's not good, at all. And it won't stretch the floor out, putting so much more pressure on Paul Pierce to just shoot from the perimeter).

My 3 best scorers CP3/Gervin/Robinson have been one of the more efficient players in their eras, not just at their positions. I have 2 monster 30ppg capable scorers in Iceman/Admiral and I have perhaps the greatest all-around point guard in Chris Paul being able to distribute on the fast break (which my defense/rebounding will cause MANY), in the pick & roll, and stretch the floor for cutters/post-up games.

Lastly - Dennis Rodman and Michael Cooper ARE offensive threats to this Brampton team: Rodman's CAREER offensive rebounding rate of 17.2% and his 5-year prime offensive board rate of 18.5% is superior to Bosh's total rebounding rate of 14.2% and his 5-year prime total rebounding rate of only 15.5%.

So I'll be having a plethora of high-efficient possessions, capped off by dozens of second-chance opportunities thanks to my rebounding. And those second-chance points can be capitalized by both Gervin/Robinson, but also by Chris Paul and Michael Cooper who respectively have posted 37.8% and 35.8% from deep in their 5-year primes.


In the end, my defense is far superior to Brampton. And my offense is highly efficient compared to theirs, especially when factoring in the offensive rebounding and 3 point shooting of my guards. Azkaban wins this series.

Overall, yes you have alot of defensive talent, but great offense beats great defense, and unlike like your team, my team can bring it on both ends. You have 3 efficient offensive players then literally nothing else after that. Your bench doesn't have spacing at all to help the stars out (Gilbert is a PG, shooting PG's don't provide off-ball spacing). We have plenty enough efficient players to be effective:

-Bosh playoff TS% in Miami - 55.3, 57.4, 52.4, 59.6 and has shot over 40% 3pt% in 3 playoff runs in Miami
-Pierce has been over 55% TS for most of his career in the playoffs, plus shot 67.7% this year! http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html
-Wilt Chamberlain is Wilt Chamberlain...playoff PER of 26.1 compared to 23 for Drob, plus is just the superior player, easily.
-Frazier shot over 55% TS several times in the playoffs.
-Thompson has the support to bump his efficiency up and his scoring prowess can't be argued. His prime is basically Gervin-lite

In the end, I'd rather have super efficient Wilt, with 4 other great scoring threats than 3 players who are efficient, but will have that somewhat lowered with the really bad offensive talent supporting them. 1 lacking offensive player is one thing (and usually those guys can at least consistenly spot-up shoot - Cooper and Rodman can't), but 2 is overkill and can definitely leave your offense exposed. Your defense is great, but we have enough scoring to beat it. Our WHOLE starting lineup is capable with 20 ppg, plus we have a bench featuring shooters to give us support unlike yours.

Sadds The Gr8
05-21-2015, 12:23 PM
and i'll follow your lead :) how's your day?

just woke up to this pretty much lol

KnicksorBust
05-21-2015, 02:52 PM
This matchup is a dead heat. Brampton's write-up + follow-up were superior. Waiting to hear more from Azkaban. Do you agree that you are playing 3 on 5 offensively?

Redrum187
05-21-2015, 02:57 PM
These are the 2 teams I had coming out of their conference.

Brampton's write up was beautiful. I had Azkaban ahead initially, but Brampton has me changing my opinion. Waiting for Azkaban to address Brampton's rebuttal.

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 05:26 PM
i will address to the best of my abilities in a couple hours once I'm home from work

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 08:31 PM
i'm formulating my response right now

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 08:55 PM
No doubt that Paul is the more efficient player but the setup of your team hurts the offense. The Clippers (who have 3-4 very efficient players) just lost to the Rockets (who have 2, with a bunch of guys who aren't efficient at all) with because they essentially had players who couldn't shoot anymore at the end of the series (Barnes, Redick, Crawford, Rivers), not to mention he was being guarded by old *** Terry, who doesn't have anywhere close to the same credentials defensively that Frazier does. The Rockets only had to defend 2 of the stars which made it a whole lot easier. this is how I see the matchup with our teams playing. Efficiency doesn't matter if there are 2 complete liabilities on the court that I barely have to guard. I addressed how we can really limit the CP3 pnr in my writeup which u can rebut if u want.


Azkaban does not have 2 complete liabilities on the court though. Here are supposed "liabities" offensively that started for the Championship Detroit Pistons in 2004
Tayshaun Prince : 9.9ppg 26.5% from deep 48.3ts% 108 ORtg 15.3 PER
Ben Wallace: 10.3ppg 11.8orb% 46.0ts% 99 ORtg 18.6 PER

Now let's see Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman a few years in the playoffs on championship teams

Two prime year playoff productions for Cooper
1985: 10.4ppg 30.8% from deep 66.5ts% 124 ORtg 15.5 PER
1987: 13.0ppg 48.6% from deep (taking 3.9 a game) 64.0ts% 123 ORtg 16.7 PER

Two prime year playoff productions for Rodman
1989: 8.6ppg 16.0orb% 57.4ts% 113 ORtg 14.0 PER
1990: 8.1ppg 11.5orb% 57.1ts% 106 ORtg 10.6 PER


So you voters, ask yourself this: "If Detroit won a ring with 2 statistically inferior offensive players starting, and Azkaban's overall defense is even better, and Azkaban has two 30ppg scorers in their lineup along with an additional 20ppg scorer (all on ELITE efficiencies, none of the Allen Iverson bull crap) then why is this an actual weakness? Let's remember which team Detroit faced in the 2004 Finals also (Shaq/Kobe).


He was the #1 option on a team without much talent at all. All he played with was Issel, who was coming out of his prime, and George Mcginnis, who was washed up at that point. It'll be easier on this team to be more efficient. We have the offensive support to take the load off of him. Plus on the reverse side, Cooper is a complete non-threat and you haven't addressed. In theory it seems nice to say that you'll just put Cooper on Thompson to try and erase his offense (which there is some ridiculous notion on psd that if you have defensive accolades you can automatically "shut down" great offensive players, which is dumb) but on the other hand, Cooper is a non-threat that I hardly even have to guard. It opens things up for other players on my team making my offense easier to run.

I have addressed him, i hope the above stats on his offensive production in the playoffs addresses it even better.

As far as David Thompson not performing up to snuff solely because of his teammates (especially the Dan Issell coming out of his prime comment):
Dan Issel in 1976 posted 23/11/2.5 on a 56.7ts% 116 ORtg 21.8 PER and 0.209 WS/48.
In the playoffs Issel posted 20.5/12/2.5 on a 54.4ts% 111 ORtg 19.3 PER and 0.164 WS/48.

Dan Issel in 1978 20/10/4 on a 57.1ts% 111 ORtg 21.5 PER and 0.186 WS/48.
In the playoffs Issel posted 20/10/4 again, on a 54.4ts% 111 ORtg 19.0 PER and 0.135 WS/48.

Bobby Jones in 1976 15/9.5/4 on a 60.9ts% 114 ORtg 18.9 PER and 0.172 WS/48.
In the playoffs Jones posted 14/8.5/4.5 on a 61.4ts% 117 ORtg 17.9 PER and 0.149 WS/48.

Bobby Jones in 1978 posted 14.5/8.5/3.5 on a 61.6ts% 113 ORtg 19.8 PER and 0.175 WS/48
In the playoffs Jones posted 13/8/2.5 again, on a 60.9ts% 116 ORtg 18.0 PER and 0.154 WS/48.

Stating he was coming out of his prime isn't entirely accurate since his prime was so long, and that isn't doing that Denver team justice. He was still a force offensively. Thompson wasn't Iverson on those Philly teams, he had help and just didn't live up to his production in the post-season.

So back to Cooper: he absolutely would make life hell for Thompson, because Thompson has no floor spacers. You have 3 guys that live within 15 feet in Frazier/Thompson/Wilt, and only 1 reliable three point shooter in your starting lineup.



Again, same thing with Chris Paul vs Frazier. Yes Gervin is the more efficient player but it hardly matters when you have no spacing around him to relieve the pressure (your bench doesn't feature much shooting either to support your starters). It'll be tough for Gervin to slash, and he'll have to settle for alot of contested mid-range jumpers since the inside will be clogged. We essentially just have 3 threats to worry about, and 2-3 main actions which are CP3 PnR and Gervin isolating or coming off screens. Plus Paul is better on D from what I read. He can give it back to Gervin on the other end. Pierce is one of the most clutch players of the modern era and is a dangerous threat in close games.

But I do have spacing. It's not elite, but it's better than yours and when you factor in Robinson's post game, Chris Paul's passing, and Gervin's ability to force defenders to collapse on his driving it works quite well. Here are my guard's prime shooting years
Chris Paul 08-12 he shot 37.8% taking 3 a game.
Michael Cooper 85-89 he shot 35.8% taking 3 a game.

In comparison, the Detroit Pistons in 2004:
Billups 34.6% from deep on 4.7 attempts
Hamilton 38.5% from deep on 1.7 attempts

That was good enough for that team, and my team's defense is better, my team's offense is farrrrrr superior. If you want to collapse the paint so much my shooters can make you pay. You can't sag off my guys the entire game. Even so, if you begin to sag off and essentially go zone, then Dennis Rodman will take advantage of the glass even more.



Bosh will be featured in PnR's and spotting up outside, which helps limit the rebounding of Rodman. There's no way that Rodman can completely wipe-out Bosh from a series. He can probably do it for some games, but Bosh is too great to get locked down in every game. Bosh can easily have 3 solid games which is more than enough. He's probably the most versatile big-man of his era with his ability to shoot 3's, kill from mid-range, face-up, pick n roll, post-up, and so on. On the other side of the ball, like i've mentioned, Rodman is a complete non-factor. Bosh can help load up on DRob and make it even harder for him to score, and also just seek out the 2 slashers to help defend in Paul and Gervin. Getting away with 1 liability on offense is doable, but 2??????

Bosh is not THAT great of a player. And you don't think he can be locked down in a 7-game series by perhaps the most versatile and greatest defender at his position in Rodman?

Chris Bosh in the 2014 Finals versus the San Antonio Spurs:
11.9ppg on 46.2% shooting a 49.1ts% in 34.3mpg of action

That was against Tiago Splitter, and that was with Bosh being utilized the same way you plan to, except for Walt Frazier he had Lebron James



Yes, the typical "Wilt played in a weak era" narrative will always work against him, but he clearly had the tools to be successful in the modern NBA and obviously was ahead of his time. It's impossible to put up the ridiculous #s and not be able to play in any era. Like I mentioned, Drob was known for coming up small in the playoffs. His teams were disappointments in the playoffs time-after-time. Wilt was clearly out of his prime with the Lakers so bringing that up isn't very reasonable. We can cherrypick those out-of-prime stats for 95% of the people in this game. In his prime Wilt was a beast that put up similar #s in the post-season to the regular season. He's just clearly a better offensive player than Robinson and there's a reason he's considered the most dominant Center ever. He'll definitely outplay Drob in this series, especially considering the offensive support he gets. Drob will have an elite defender on him, combined with a crowded paint and loads of help defense to deal with due to lack of offensive support and spacing.


David Thompson gets an excuse for his teams not having enough offense around him, but David Robinson does not? The only player Robinson had was Sean Elliot in 95/96, after him the next best scoreres on the team consisted of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, :puke: In 1993 Robinson's "Robin" consisted of Dale Ellis at 15ppg followed by Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro.

As far as the bolded, that's 100% infactual. Here are David Robinson's numbers in the second round in 1993 verus Phoenix: 25.7ppg 11.0rpg 3.5apg 3.3bpg 1.7spg in 40.8mpg of action. His efficiency numbers: 55.3ts% 28.2usg% 113 ORtg and only a 10.9tov%

David Robinson in 1995 when he lost to Houston: 23.8ppg 11.3rpg 2.7apg 2.2bpg 1.5spg in 41.7mpg of action. His efficiency numbers: 55.3ts% 28.5usg% 106 ORtg 17.3tov%

In 1996 Robinson only posted: 19.3ppg 52.6ts% 29.6usg% 107 ORtg

His production in the 96 playoffs versus Utah was under par, especially for him. But guess what the Spurs second best player did that series (Sean Elliot if you didn't know): 14.2ppg with 3.3 tov (only 2.5 assists a game) shooting 37.1efg% from the field, a 49.3ts%, 92 ORtg, on a 23.2usg%.


Overall, yes you have alot of defensive talent, but great offense beats great defense, and unlike like your team, my team can bring it on both ends. You have 3 efficient offensive players then literally nothing else after that. Your bench doesn't have spacing at all to help the stars out (Gilbert is a PG, shooting PG's don't provide off-ball spacing). We have plenty enough efficient players to be effective:

-Bosh playoff TS% in Miami - 55.3, 57.4, 52.4, 59.6 and has shot over 40% 3pt% in 3 playoff runs in Miami
-Pierce has been over 55% TS for most of his career in the playoffs, plus shot 67.7% this year! http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01.html
-Wilt Chamberlain is Wilt Chamberlain...playoff PER of 26.1 compared to 23 for Drob, plus is just the superior player, easily.
-Frazier shot over 55% TS several times in the playoffs.
-Thompson has the support to bump his efficiency up and his scoring prowess can't be argued. His prime is basically Gervin-lite

In the end, I'd rather have super efficient Wilt, with 4 other great scoring threats than 3 players who are efficient, but will have that somewhat lowered with the really bad offensive talent supporting them. 1 lacking offensive player is one thing (and usually those guys can at least consistenly spot-up shoot - Cooper and Rodman can't), but 2 is overkill and can definitely leave your offense exposed. Your defense is great, but we have enough scoring to beat it. Our WHOLE starting lineup is capable with 20 ppg, plus we have a bench featuring shooters to give us support unlike yours.

Does Lebron James not provide spacing off the ball? The bolded is reaching and I think you know it. Gilbert's prime he shot 36.4% from deep taking 7 a game, that is absolutely providing some spacing (especially in the pick & roll game). Tayshaun Prince's 5-year prime he shot 37.3% from deep taking 2 a game, that's respectable especially if he capitalizes on your defense sagging (which he's shown he can do).

Serge Ibaka the past 3 years has shot 37.3% from deep taking 322 attempts. That's a better 3 year stretch than ANY Chris Bosh has ever posted.

Pierce's numbers this playoffs are nice, but I thought we're talking about a players' prime years? Like in the other matchup, you don't get Kidd's great shooting and his great defense, they came at different times in his career. If you want the 3 point shooting Bosh then you don't really get the "all-around" scorer Bosh (the post-game, drive-game Bosh) you get the pick & pop guy, that has been shut down by Tiago Splitter of all defenders.


The second bolded: Michael Cooper CAN spot-up shoot, he was really good at it (i've said that like 6 times now).


Overall, my defense is suffocating. It would limit your five 20ppg scorers to inefficient mid-range jump-shooting contests because of my perimeter defense preventing any drives, and Rodman/Robinson in the paint. On the other end, George Gervin has posted the following in series against the Washington Bullets (which boasted All-NBA defender Elvin Hayes and Bob Dandridge) in back to back playoffs: 33.2ppg and 31.0ppg respectively while posting efficiency numbers of 59ts% 30usg% ~0.225 WS/48 ~27.0 PER.

Couple that with the offensive dominance and efficiency of Chris Paul and David Robinson, the floor spacing (yes floor spacing!) of Michael Cooper (who has shot 46% in the playoffs from deep in a post-season run with the Lakers, better than anything Chris Bosh has done from beyond the arc mind you), the offensive rebounding of Dennis Rodman (which continues to get overlooked). Dennis Rodman has averaged more offensive rebounds in 2 playoff runs than Chris Bosh has had TOTAL rebounds in two playoff runs.



This would be a bloodbath series, but the physicality of my team would win out, along with my high-efficient scorers being able to take over games. Let's not overlook my defensive bench either: there is no break for this Brampton team when starters get their quick rests.

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 09:00 PM
This matchup is a dead heat. Brampton's write-up + follow-up were superior. Waiting to hear more from Azkaban. Do you agree that you are playing 3 on 5 offensively?

I do not agree. Michael Cooper is not this blackhole on offense. In the 1987 playoffs he averaged 13.0ppg on offense while shooting 48.6% from deep on 4 attempts a game. His OBPM that playoffs run was 4.1! If a 4th option averaged those numbers on a team today, he would be viewed at in high regard, not as a liability.


Dennis Rodman? Yeah, he's not a scorer. He only broke double digit scoring once (another time at 9.8), and never double digits in the playoffs. But he provides so much value on the offensive boards, and when he does score it's nearly a guaranteed basket (57.4ts% during the Pistons two ring runs) so it's not like he's Ben Wallace out there.

Killerjug
05-21-2015, 09:25 PM
I don't necessarily buy the Pistons argument. This is an all time game not a regular set of rosters. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'd say that is more of an outlier than the norm

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 09:32 PM
Another aspect of scoring that Brampton doesn't necessarily have an edge over in this series is free throw shooting. Now, players' prime free throw attempts per game would not translate on these star-studded rosters, but their free throw rates and percentages would hold true:
5-year Prime Free Throw Rates and percentages:
David Robinson - 56.5 rate making 74.7% of them = 0.422 conversion factor
George Gervin - 33.6 rate making 84.0% of them = 0.282 conversion factor
Chris Paul - 35.8 rate making 86.3% of them = 0.309 conversion factor
total conversion factor: 1.013

In comparison Brampton's three best scorers
Wilt Chamberlain - 42.6 rate making 56.8% of them = 0.242 conversion factor
Paul Pierce - 46.2 rate making 79.8% = 0.369 conversion factor
David Thompson - 42.8 rate making 77.2% of them = 0.330 conversion factor
total conversion factor: 0.941


Now, these stats don't necessarily help me or hurt me (especially sine Cooper/Rodman do not get to the line nearly as much as Frazier/Bosh) but if anyone thinks my team or Sadds' team would capitalize more on the line than the other would be mistaken.


Now I think i've said everything I wanted to, please vote and good luck to Sadds :cheers:

Shammyguy3
05-21-2015, 09:35 PM
I don't necessarily buy the Pistons argument. This is an all time game not a regular set of rosters. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'd say that is more of an outlier than the norm

I agree, but that outlier is showing that an 18th ranked offensive team was good enough to win at some point. Now, I think you'd agree that my offense (especially since I've shown that Michael Cooper is far more valuable offensively than anyone initially wants to credit him for being) is far superior to just a grind-it-out defense. My team would score, and it would do so efficiently. It would capitalize on defense stops on the fast break with Paul/Cooper/Gervin, and it would capitalize on second-chance opportunities thanks to my rebounding bigs.

So even though his offense top to bottom is superior, it's not efficient enough to battle my 3 superior offensive players in terms of efficiency/volume AND not good enough to make up for those second chance opportunities and easy baskets that Azkaban would force.

Sadds The Gr8
05-21-2015, 10:54 PM
I'll respond when I get home from work, but completely agree with kj on the pistons comparison. Complete anomaly

IKnowHoops
05-22-2015, 04:23 AM
Very tough, but I like the efficiency offensively of Azkaban in this scenario. Combine that with the better defense and rebounding (I know Wilt was a beast) but, in a real game where the these prime players could actually battle one another, I'd bet that Drob and Dennis, would outbound Wilt and soft Bosh. Again this game would be hard fought, but I wouldn't underestimate Drob against Wilt. Drob had was more versatile, could shoot from anywhere inside 3 pt land with regular success. I also happen to believe Drob would put up better numbers than Wilt in that Era. David also out dueled Shaq on many occasions so I thing he could do the same with Wilt. I think Wilts numbers are better purely because of the Era.

Again Chris Paul is a beast and being able to have him play with David is gonna be stupid nasty. I also think Prime CP3 will help Micheal Cooper and Dennis Rodman pick up there lack of scoring by getting easy buckets. Both Cooper and Rodman are cerebral players who know how to slide around and move to open spots for easy buckets.

This kind of battle would go 6-7 games in my opinion, and the center battle would be one for the ages. But I got azkaban for the win in this one.

Sadds The Gr8
05-22-2015, 05:39 AM
Azkaban does not have 2 complete liabilities on the court though. Here are supposed "liabities" offensively that started for the Championship Detroit Pistons in 2004
Tayshaun Prince : 9.9ppg 26.5% from deep 48.3ts% 108 ORtg 15.3 PER
Ben Wallace: 10.3ppg 11.8orb% 46.0ts% 99 ORtg 18.6 PER

Now let's see Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman a few years in the playoffs on championship teams

Two prime year playoff productions for Cooper
1985: 10.4ppg 30.8% from deep 66.5ts% 124 ORtg 15.5 PER
1987: 13.0ppg 48.6% from deep (taking 3.9 a game) 64.0ts% 123 ORtg 16.7 PER

Two prime year playoff productions for Rodman
1989: 8.6ppg 16.0orb% 57.4ts% 113 ORtg 14.0 PER
1990: 8.1ppg 11.5orb% 57.1ts% 106 ORtg 10.6 PER


So you voters, ask yourself this: "If Detroit won a ring with 2 statistically inferior offensive players starting, and Azkaban's overall defense is even better, and Azkaban has two 30ppg scorers in their lineup along with an additional 20ppg scorer (all on ELITE efficiencies, none of the Allen Iverson bull crap) then why is this an actual weakness? Let's remember which team Detroit faced in the 2004 Finals also (Shaq/Kobe).
Cooper has only had ONE really hot run in his career from 3. I don't know how that can be depended on. It's a really small sample size. I'll still concede shots to him because he just isn't a volume 3pt shooter. Michael Cooper averaged double digit points in 2 out of his 12 NBA seasons and was never a shooting threat for most of his career. If you wanna depend on 1 playoff run as proof of him being a reliable shooter then I don't know what to say lol.

And as mentioned, everyone knows that Detroit team was an outlier. They played a Laker team that was in shambles. Malone was hurt, Payton was washed up by the end, and like everyone on that team hated each other lol. they had no chemistry and relied on talent alone. Plus you don't have the goods to stop our stars like Detroit did. Pierce and Wilt are good for 20+ppg per night easily with their matchups.

Those scoring numbers for Rodman still aren't impressive. That's not changing the fact that he still will not need to be guarded. the paint will stay packed regardless and him being on the floor will bother DRob's post-ups. If Drob averages 30, it'll be on garbage efficiency as usual for him in the playoffs. Your stats still don't scare me from loading up in the paint. Your lineup has literally no spacing.




I have addressed him, i hope the above stats on his offensive production in the playoffs addresses it even better.

As far as David Thompson not performing up to snuff solely because of his teammates (especially the Dan Issell coming out of his prime comment):
Dan Issel in 1976 posted 23/11/2.5 on a 56.7ts% 116 ORtg 21.8 PER and 0.209 WS/48.
In the playoffs Issel posted 20.5/12/2.5 on a 54.4ts% 111 ORtg 19.3 PER and 0.164 WS/48.

Dan Issel in 1978 20/10/4 on a 57.1ts% 111 ORtg 21.5 PER and 0.186 WS/48.
In the playoffs Issel posted 20/10/4 again, on a 54.4ts% 111 ORtg 19.0 PER and 0.135 WS/48.

Bobby Jones in 1976 15/9.5/4 on a 60.9ts% 114 ORtg 18.9 PER and 0.172 WS/48.
In the playoffs Jones posted 14/8.5/4.5 on a 61.4ts% 117 ORtg 17.9 PER and 0.149 WS/48.

Bobby Jones in 1978 posted 14.5/8.5/3.5 on a 61.6ts% 113 ORtg 19.8 PER and 0.175 WS/48
In the playoffs Jones posted 13/8/2.5 again, on a 60.9ts% 116 ORtg 18.0 PER and 0.154 WS/48.

Stating he was coming out of his prime isn't entirely accurate since his prime was so long, and that isn't doing that Denver team justice. He was still a force offensively. Thompson wasn't Iverson on those Philly teams, he had help and just didn't live up to his production in the post-season.

So back to Cooper: he absolutely would make life hell for Thompson, because Thompson has no floor spacers. You have 3 guys that live within 15 feet in Frazier/Thompson/Wilt, and only 1 reliable three point shooter in your starting lineup.

He still wasn't the Issel of old, and we all know Bobby Jones isn't a scorer. What is 15ppg? His supporting cast wasn't very good at all. It'll be much easier for him to score on this team with the amount of playmakers we have. He doesn't have to be a consistent #1 option like he did on those Denver teams.



But I do have spacing. It's not elite, but it's better than yours and when you factor in Robinson's post game, Chris Paul's passing, and Gervin's ability to force defenders to collapse on his driving it works quite well. Here are my guard's prime shooting years
Chris Paul 08-12 he shot 37.8% taking 3 a game.
Michael Cooper 85-89 he shot 35.8% taking 3 a game.

In comparison, the Detroit Pistons in 2004:
Billups 34.6% from deep on 4.7 attempts
Hamilton 38.5% from deep on 1.7 attempts

That was good enough for that team, and my team's defense is better, my team's offense is farrrrrr superior. If you want to collapse the paint so much my shooters can make you pay. You can't sag off my guys the entire game. Even so, if you begin to sag off and essentially go zone, then Dennis Rodman will take advantage of the glass even more.
Neither Paul or Cooper are volume 3pt shooters, they take em sparingly. Your spacing isn't better than mine lol, especially when you add benches. Bosh can space from mid-range to 3 (spacing for a big man is more important, as it opens up the paint for Wilt. Drob won't have that kind of space for his offense), and Pierce is a well-known 3pt shooter. You don't even have guys off of your bench to help relieve pressure off of your stars. Your team is overkill on defense and it doesn't have balance. Paul won't be sagged off of, I'll have an elite PG hounding him and playing him up tight. Only Cooper and Rodman will be sagged off of. And even Gervin can be during Cp3 and Drob P&R's. We won't be playing any zone...don't need to. I have the defenders to guard your 3 stars, plus great help behind them.




Bosh is not THAT great of a player. And you don't think he can be locked down in a 7-game series by perhaps the most versatile and greatest defender at his position in Rodman?

Chris Bosh in the 2014 Finals versus the San Antonio Spurs:
11.9ppg on 46.2% shooting a 49.1ts% in 34.3mpg of action

That was against Tiago Splitter, and that was with Bosh being utilized the same way you plan to, except for Walt Frazier he had Lebron James
Can he be shut down in a couple of games? probably, but definitely not EVERY game. Splitter has the length to contest and bother Bosh's jumpers. Rodman isn't nearly as big. He'll be pesky, but like I said, Bosh will be used on P&R's and pop out. He's a dangerous player no matter how you slice it, and is a capable of putting up 20 on any given night. He's also a clutch shot maker, no matter how cold he can get.




David Thompson gets an excuse for his teams not having enough offense around him, but David Robinson does not? The only player Robinson had was Sean Elliot in 95/96, after him the next best scoreres on the team consisted of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, :puke: In 1993 Robinson's "Robin" consisted of Dale Ellis at 15ppg followed by Willie Anderson and Vinny Del Negro.

As far as the bolded, that's 100% infactual. Here are David Robinson's numbers in the second round in 1993 verus Phoenix: 25.7ppg 11.0rpg 3.5apg 3.3bpg 1.7spg in 40.8mpg of action. His efficiency numbers: 55.3ts% 28.2usg% 113 ORtg and only a 10.9tov%

David Robinson in 1995 when he lost to Houston: 23.8ppg 11.3rpg 2.7apg 2.2bpg 1.5spg in 41.7mpg of action. His efficiency numbers: 55.3ts% 28.5usg% 106 ORtg 17.3tov%

In 1996 Robinson only posted: 19.3ppg 52.6ts% 29.6usg% 107 ORtg

His production in the 96 playoffs versus Utah was under par, especially for him. But guess what the Spurs second best player did that series (Sean Elliot if you didn't know): 14.2ppg with 3.3 tov (only 2.5 assists a game) shooting 37.1efg% from the field, a 49.3ts%, 92 ORtg, on a 23.2usg%.

David Thompson isn't my best player and isn't my #1 option. Robinson routinely fell off in the playoffs. I can pickoff those stats too:

1993 1st round vs Portland- 19.3 ppg, 42.6 FG%, 48.7 TS%
1994 1st round vs Utah- 20 ppg, 41.1 FG%, 47.1 TS%
1995 1st round vs Denver- 19 ppg, 42.9 FG%, 49.3 TS%
1996 semifinals vs Utah- 19.3 ppg, 47.5 FG%, 52.6 TS%

Sorry but the guy choked hardcore in several playoff series, and that's your best player...and in the fact that he's a 48% FG shooter in his career during the playoffs.




Does Lebron James not provide spacing off the ball? The bolded is reaching and I think you know it. Gilbert's prime he shot 36.4% from deep taking 7 a game, that is absolutely providing some spacing (especially in the pick & roll game). Tayshaun Prince's 5-year prime he shot 37.3% from deep taking 2 a game, that's respectable especially if he capitalizes on your defense sagging (which he's shown he can do).
Gilbert doesn't space the floor when he has the ball, that's my point. He's more of a ball stopper and doesn't threaten my defensive strategy. We just play him up tight like we do with CP3, and sag off of your wings that can't shoot. Prince is also a low volume shooter...he's no threat to beat me from deep. He's no Peja or Korver...



Serge Ibaka the past 3 years has shot 37.3% from deep taking 322 attempts. That's a better 3 year stretch than ANY Chris Bosh has ever posted.

lol Serge shot under 1 3 attempt per game, and has a whopping 1 season of consistent 3 point shooting, which he toned down later in the season and went back to shooting more mid-range shots. You can't just say Cooper is a playoff 3pt shooter then ignore Bosh's #s...


Pierce's numbers this playoffs are nice, but I thought we're talking about a players' prime years? Like in the other matchup, you don't get Kidd's great shooting and his great defense, they came at different times in his career. If you want the 3 point shooting Bosh then you don't really get the "all-around" scorer Bosh (the post-game, drive-game Bosh) you get the pick & pop guy, that has been shut down by Tiago Splitter of all defenders.
huh? Bosh had his best 3pt shooting season by far, and went back to being the #1 offensive option this year. He had his post-up, face-up, and 3pt shooting all in effect this year.



The second bolded: Michael Cooper CAN spot-up shoot, he was really good at it (i've said that like 6 times now).
not consistently enough to scare me at all. Even if he gets hot at times, we can play him close and still clog the paint with Bosh playing off of Rodman. Like Memphis this year had 1 3pt shooter (Lee), and the offense was still pretty hopeless with the amount of bodies packing the paint because they played off of Tony Allen.


Overall, my defense is suffocating. It would limit your five 20ppg scorers to inefficient mid-range jump-shooting contests because of my perimeter defense preventing any drives, and Rodman/Robinson in the paint. On the other end, George Gervin has posted the following in series against the Washington Bullets (which boasted All-NBA defender Elvin Hayes and Bob Dandridge) in back to back playoffs: 33.2ppg and 31.0ppg respectively while posting efficiency numbers of 59ts% 30usg% ~0.225 WS/48 ~27.0 PER.
Rodman won't be in the paint, unless you wanna play off of Bosh and leave him wide open, which helps me. I mentioned why Gervin's scoring could be hampered. The spacing and help defense will make him struggle.



Couple that with the offensive dominance and efficiency of Chris Paul and David Robinson, the floor spacing (yes floor spacing!) of Michael Cooper (who has shot 46% in the playoffs from deep in a post-season run with the Lakers, better than anything Chris Bosh has done from beyond the arc mind you), the offensive rebounding of Dennis Rodman (which continues to get overlooked). Dennis Rodman has averaged more offensive rebounds in 2 playoff runs than Chris Bosh has had TOTAL rebounds in two playoff runs.

Drob far from highly efficient in the playoffs. Like I said, we just saw a CP3 team with 3 efficient players get ousted because they DIDNT HAVE THE SUPPORTING CAST SCORE ENOUGH. This is a similar scenario except with worse shooters. You literally only have 4 offensive threats in your rotation (Paul, Gervin, Drob, and Gilbert who'll barely play). It's tough to depend on 3 players on offense to beat my team, with 2-way threats all over the place. Every player on my team plays both sides of the ball. there's no liabilities like Rodman, Cooper, tony Allen to cripple my offense.

Shammyguy3
05-22-2015, 10:55 AM
Cooper has only had ONE really hot run in his career from 3. I don't know how that can be depended on. It's a really small sample size. I'll still concede shots to him because he just isn't a volume 3pt shooter. Michael Cooper averaged double digit points in 2 out of his 12 NBA seasons and was never a shooting threat for most of his career. If you wanna depend on 1 playoff run as proof of him being a reliable shooter then I don't know what to say lol.

Cooper has had 3 years in his career where he shot over 38% from deep. That's the regular season. Now as far as the bolded, that's ALSO wrongggg:

Cooper in the 86 playoffs: 46.3% from deep taking 3.5 a game over 14 games.
Cooper in the 87 playoffs: 48.6% from deep taking 4.8 a game over 18 games (lead league in post-season 3pt% on his way to a ring)
Cooper in the 88 playoffs: 40.3% from deep taking 3.3 a game over 24 games (on his way to another ring)
Cooper in the 89 playoffs: 38.2% from deep taking 4.8 a game over 15 games.

How is that not a HUGE sample size for playoff success from shooting deep? That's a 4 year stretch of playoff runs back to back to back to back shooting a combined 43.2% from deep taking 4.2 attempts a game in 71 games.

How's that for reliable? :eyebrow:

'd like to reiterate: this Azkaban team is NOT going 3 on 5 offensively. It's going 4 on 5, with Rodman still providing historic offensive rebounding


And as mentioned, everyone knows that Detroit team was an outlier. They played a Laker team that was in shambles. Malone was hurt, Payton was washed up by the end, and like everyone on that team hated each other lol. they had no chemistry and relied on talent alone. Plus you don't have the goods to stop our stars like Detroit did. Pierce and Wilt are good for 20+ppg per night easily with their matchups.

Yeah, but this Azkaban team is infinitely better offensively and is even better defensively.


Those scoring numbers for Rodman still aren't impressive. That's not changing the fact that he still will not need to be guarded. the paint will stay packed regardless and him being on the floor will bother DRob's post-ups. If Drob averages 30, it'll be on garbage efficiency as usual for him in the playoffs. Your stats still don't scare me from loading up in the paint. Your lineup has literally no spacing.

Disagree, the paint cannot be packed otherwise Michael Cooper's 43.2% from three point land during a 4 year playoff run in which he won two rings (better than anything any of your perimeter players have done) will make you pay.

And the bolded is just wrong, as I've shown in the previous post about his efficiency numbers in close-out series where he had nobody to help him. If you want to ignore that okay, but it's wrong.





He still wasn't the Issel of old, and we all know Bobby Jones isn't a scorer. What is 15ppg? His supporting cast wasn't very good at all. It'll be much easier for him to score on this team with the amount of playmakers we have. He doesn't have to be a consistent #1 option like he did on those Denver teams.

Paul Pierce wasn't the Pierce of old in the Celtics contending teams, but he was still damn good and still an all-star talent. You're crediting Thompson and disregarding David Robinson in the playoffs, even though Thompson had more help than any roster Robinson played with in his prime. That's not fair of you.




Neither Paul or Cooper are volume 3pt shooters, they take em sparingly. Your spacing isn't better than mine lol, especially when you add benches. Bosh can space from mid-range to 3 (spacing for a big man is more important, as it opens up the paint for Wilt. Drob won't have that kind of space for his offense), and Pierce is a well-known 3pt shooter. You don't even have guys off of your bench to help relieve pressure off of your stars. Your team is overkill on defense and it doesn't have balance. Paul won't be sagged off of, I'll have an elite PG hounding him and playing him up tight. Only Cooper and Rodman will be sagged off of. And even Gervin can be during Cp3 and Drob P&R's. We won't be playing any zone...don't need to. I have the defenders to guard your 3 stars, plus great help behind them.

I kinda just showed that Cooper is a volume 3 point shooter, he takes over 4 a game in his prime in the playoffs and shoots well over 40% (again, actually 43.2%)





Can he be shut down in a couple of games? probably, but definitely not EVERY game. Splitter has the length to contest and bother Bosh's jumpers. Rodman isn't nearly as big. He'll be pesky, but like I said, Bosh will be used on P&R's and pop out. He's a dangerous player no matter how you slice it, and is a capable of putting up 20 on any given night. He's also a clutch shot maker, no matter how cold he can get.

Bosh was shut down every game, going up against Tiago Splitter. I have Dennis Rodman, and my defense is superior to that Spurs defense. Bosh will be owned in this series, his psyche will be shot and I am not worried about him at all. While Rodman isn't nearly as big, it does not matter if all you're having Bosh do is play a pick & roll game. Rodman will get into Bosh's head, and Bosh is a finesse player that won't be able to handle Rodman's physicality. That much is true in my mind.




David Thompson isn't my best player and isn't my #1 option. Robinson routinely fell off in the playoffs. I can pickoff those stats too:

1993 1st round vs Portland- 19.3 ppg, 42.6 FG%, 48.7 TS%
1994 1st round vs Utah- 20 ppg, 41.1 FG%, 47.1 TS%
1995 1st round vs Denver- 19 ppg, 42.9 FG%, 49.3 TS%
1996 semifinals vs Utah- 19.3 ppg, 47.5 FG%, 52.6 TS%

Sorry but the guy choked hardcore in several playoff series, and that's your best player...and in the fact that he's a 48% FG shooter in his career during the playoffs.

I already posted the 1996 numbers versus Utah when Sean Elliot shot 33% from the field, his supposed second option. Robinson has not had the luxury of having multiple all-stars around him in his career unlike David Thompson. And even in those first round series where he struggled, the second round series he bounced back like a champ and posted really good efficiency levels.

He'll be utilized much better on Azkaban's team than he ever was on his Spurs teams in the 90s.


Gilbert doesn't space the floor when he has the ball, that's my point. He's more of a ball stopper and doesn't threaten my defensive strategy. We just play him up tight like we do with CP3, and sag off of your wings that can't shoot. Prince is also a low volume shooter...he's no threat to beat me from deep. He's no Peja or Korver...

Gilbert's pick & roll game will open up a ton of open threes for him, and if you don't think that's true then how did he have such success with it for a long duration of his career?



lol Serge shot under 1 3 attempt per game, and has a whopping 1 season of consistent 3 point shooting, which he toned down later in the season and went back to shooting more mid-range shots. You can't just say Cooper is a playoff 3pt shooter then ignore Bosh's #s...

Cooper is an elite playoff 3 point shooter. Again over 71 games in four straight playoffs he took over 4 a game and shot over 43% from deep. Ibaka can space the floor just fine for my bench, he took over 3 threes this season and shown that on a higher volume he can be just as efficient. That's not a major worry at all.


huh? Bosh had his best 3pt shooting season by far, and went back to being the #1 offensive option this year. He had his post-up, face-up, and 3pt shooting all in effect this year.

Chris Bosh in the playoffs the last three years: 41.9% from deep on 2.2 attempts. That's half the volume of Michael Cooper on a lesser percentage.


not consistently enough to scare me at all. Even if he gets hot at times, we can play him close and still clog the paint with Bosh playing off of Rodman. Like Memphis this year had 1 3pt shooter (Lee), and the offense was still pretty hopeless with the amount of bodies packing the paint because they played off of Tony Allen.

Again I'm showing this isn't true.


Rodman won't be in the paint, unless you wanna play off of Bosh and leave him wide open, which helps me. I mentioned why Gervin's scoring could be hampered. The spacing and help defense will make him struggle.

Rodman's tenacity to box out and get the ball is crazy. Unless Bosh is shooting every possession down on the floor Rodman will get his rebounds, especially on offense where Bosh is pedestrian at best.


Drob far from highly efficient in the playoffs. Like I said, we just saw a CP3 team with 3 efficient players get ousted because they DIDNT HAVE THE SUPPORTING CAST SCORE ENOUGH. This is a similar scenario except with worse shooters. You literally only have 4 offensive threats in your rotation (Paul, Gervin, Drob, and Gilbert who'll barely play). It's tough to depend on 3 players on offense to beat my team, with 2-way threats all over the place. Every player on my team plays both sides of the ball. there's no liabilities like Rodman, Cooper, tony Allen to cripple my offense.

This team does have a supporting cast that can score. And this defense is infinitely better than the Clippers, so idk why you're comparing that :shrug:

Sadds The Gr8
05-22-2015, 12:17 PM
Cooper has had 3 years in his career where he shot over 38% from deep. That's the regular season. Now as far as the bolded, that's ALSO wrongggg:

Cooper in the 86 playoffs: 46.3% from deep taking 3.5 a game over 14 games.
Cooper in the 87 playoffs: 48.6% from deep taking 4.8 a game over 18 games (lead league in post-season 3pt% on his way to a ring)
Cooper in the 88 playoffs: 40.3% from deep taking 3.3 a game over 24 games (on his way to another ring)
Cooper in the 89 playoffs: 38.2% from deep taking 4.8 a game over 15 games.

How is that not a HUGE sample size for playoff success from shooting deep? That's a 4 year stretch of playoff runs back to back to back to back shooting a combined 43.2% from deep taking 4.2 attempts a game in 71 games.
Because that isn't the majority of his career which includes the regular season. Other than 86-87 playoffs, the per game sample sizes are really small. A guy that can hit slight over 1.0 3's per game (0.7 per game in his playoff career) isn't gonna take me away from my strategy. Cooper heaving 3's is not a scary threat. Like I said, if he rolls hot for a game or 2, we can play him up closer and still clog off the paint with Bosh, and continue to bother Cp3/Rob p&r's by going over the screens and playing off of Rodman.


'd like to reiterate: this Azkaban team is NOT going 3 on 5 offensively. It's going 4 on 5, with Rodman still providing historic offensive rebounding
It still is though, because Cooper is no threat other than making the occasional 3. He's a really good role player but to be counted on as a floor spacer just doesn't fit his skill-set.



Disagree, the paint cannot be packed otherwise Michael Cooper's 43.2% from three point land during a 4 year playoff run in which he won two rings (better than anything any of your perimeter players have done) will make you pay.
The inside can still be crowded even if Cooper is covered (Which doesn't have to be a big philosphy, he isn't Korver where I have to know where he is every splitting second). Rodman still kills spacing because he doesn't even bring a consistent mid-range shot, and Gervin can ruin it at times as well with his inability to shoot 3's as a wing.


And the bolded is just wrong, as I've shown in the previous post about his efficiency numbers in close-out series where he had nobody to help him. If you want to ignore that okay, but it's wrong.
This part of the debate is pointless because it's cherrypicking stats and arguing which is more important. Bottom line is Drob came up small in several series' and is known for lowering his efficiency ALOT once the playoffs came around. We have the elite defender, and the philosophy to make him inefficient. Rodman and Cooper in there kills his ability to work inside, while having to deal with Wilt, and Bosh helping.




Paul Pierce wasn't the Pierce of old in the Celtics contending teams, but he was still damn good and still an all-star talent. You're crediting Thompson and disregarding David Robinson in the playoffs, even though Thompson had more help than any roster Robinson played with in his prime. That's not fair of you.

I didn't credit Thompson once. I just said that he's capable of elite scoring (Gervin-lite), and he'll have great teammates and playmakers around him to make his job easier. He's a great slasher, cutter, and mid-range shooter.




I kinda just showed that Cooper is a volume 3 point shooter, he takes over 4 a game in his prime in the playoffs and shoots well over 40% (again, actually 43.2%)
he was volume shooter in one playoff run...

other than that he shot sparingly, and in the regular season hardly shot 3's at all.




Bosh was shut down every game, going up against Tiago Splitter. I have Dennis Rodman, and my defense is superior to that Spurs defense. Bosh will be owned in this series, his psyche will be shot and I am not worried about him at all. While Rodman isn't nearly as big, it does not matter if all you're having Bosh do is play a pick & roll game. Rodman will get into Bosh's head, and Bosh is a finesse player that won't be able to handle Rodman's physicality. That much is true in my mind.

How do you handle guarding Terry/Bosh P&R's then? It's similar to the deadly Terry/Dirk P&R's where you have 2 great threats that can get to the hoop, but also shoot from anywhere on the court. If you come up top/hedge to close out on Bosh, you know that leaves the paint wide open, right? It gives wilt a ton of space and also gives Terry space to shoot in the mid-range. The lineup of:

Terry
Thompson
Pierce
Bosh
Wilt

can give your team hell if you just wanna play bosh close. That's 3 great shooters and beast Wilt in the middle alone with whoever is guarding him. Terry is one of the great P&R shooting threats of his era. It definitely opens things up for Bosh having a great shooter running P&R instead of Wade or LBJ who aren't the shooting threat Terry is.





Gilbert's pick & roll game will open up a ton of open threes for him, and if you don't think that's true then how did he have such success with it for a long duration of his career?
Because we'll go over his screens and have a crowded paint for him, that's why he won't have a ton of 3's. You have no spot up threats (other than "Cooper" who is hardly a 3pt elite) to open things up and create threats off the pass. Plus Gilbert shot an awful 30% from 3 in his playoff career.




Cooper is an elite playoff 3 point shooter. Again over 71 games in four straight playoffs he took over 4 a game and shot over 43% from deep. Ibaka can space the floor just fine for my bench, he took over 3 threes this season and shown that on a higher volume he can be just as efficient. That's not a major worry at all.
He never shot 4 3pt FG's in ANY playoff run. Closest he got was 3.9 and that's the anomaly season. Other than that he sparingly shot 3's. That just isn't enough to bend my defense his way and face guard him like I would for a regular 3pt shooter.



Chris Bosh in the playoffs the last three years: 41.9% from deep on 2.2 attempts. That's half the volume of Michael Cooper on a lesser percentage.

the philosophy is complete different. he's a big man that will take Rodman out of the paint and open things up for my offense. He's an ELITE mid-range shooter (was right up there with Dirk in a couple seasons in mid-range FG%) and will open up the floor and suck a big out of the paint. That is huge. His spacing is more essential than Cooper's.


Rodman's tenacity to box out and get the ball is crazy. Unless Bosh is shooting every possession down on the floor Rodman will get his rebounds, especially on offense where Bosh is pedestrian at best.
If you give Bosh the space to, we wouldn't mind him shooting. Like I said, elite mid-range shooter that can hit the 3 when he's hot. We can get Brand to help out on the boards if Bosh is struggling there. It's not just the starters.



This team does have a supporting cast that can score. And this defense is infinitely better than the Clippers, so idk why you're comparing that :shrug:

Who other than your top 3? Cooper is a single digit scorer the majority of his career, as is Rodman. Arenas won't play much with Cp3 out there, Prince is hardly a threat in a game with this much talent, we all know about Tony Allen...

My team goes 10 deep if you wanna talk scoring, plus has the defense to slow you down. Pierce can challenge Gervin, then own him on the offensive end, Wilt - elite defender plus elite scorer, Frazier - elite defender plus offensive threat, Bosh is a great shooter and Thompson a great slasher and can also kill from mid-range. My bench has great post-up threats and shooters to compliment. Your bench isn't very deep. You've barely mentioned how they'll contribute offensively. Your offense goes down the drain when they come in (also similar to the clippers).

Shammyguy3
05-22-2015, 12:58 PM
Because that isn't the majority of his career which includes the regular season. Other than 86-87 playoffs, the per game sample sizes are really small. A guy that can hit slight over 1.0 3's per game (0.7 per game in his playoff career) isn't gonna take me away from my strategy. Cooper heaving 3's is not a scary threat. Like I said, if he rolls hot for a game or 2, we can play him up closer and still clog off the paint with Bosh, and continue to bother Cp3/Rob p&r's by going over the screens and playing off of Rodman.

You're completely disregarding Coopers prime and how he completely rose to the occasion four STRAIGHT post-seasons in a row with an average of 43% from deep taking over 4 a game. I'm just gonna keep hammering that home.



'd like to reiterate: this Azkaban team is NOT going 3 on 5 offensively. It's going 4 on 5, with Rodman still providing historic offensive rebounding
It still is though, because Cooper is no threat other than making the occasional 3. He's a really good role player but to be counted on as a floor spacer just doesn't fit his skill-set.

He's far more of a threat than you're saying.


The inside can still be crowded even if Cooper is covered (Which doesn't have to be a big philosphy, he isn't Korver where I have to know where he is every splitting second). Rodman still kills spacing because he doesn't even bring a consistent mid-range shot, and Gervin can ruin it at times as well with his inability to shoot 3's as a wing.

So two players that can shoot 40% from deep for a series is no spacing?

Rodman doesn't kill spacing, if he did then how in the world did those Pistons/Bulls teams win when they only had

Dumars who shot 8.3% from deep and 26.3% from deep taking less than 1 attempt a game in those 89 and 90 championship Pistons teams. Isaiah Thomas shot 26.7% taking 2.7 a game and then 40.8% taking 3.7 a game respectively those years in the playoffs as well.

The Bulls did not have floor spacers in their starting lineup outside of one guy during those dynasty teams. I have two guys.


Championship teams have won with a lot less than what I have, and I have better shooters, 3 elite scorers at prime positions, the greatest offensive rebounder ever at his position (and perhaps in all of the NBA) in Rodman, etc.



This part of the debate is pointless because it's cherrypicking stats and arguing which is more important. Bottom line is Drob came up small in several series' and is known for lowering his efficiency ALOT once the playoffs came around. We have the elite defender, and the philosophy to make him inefficient. Rodman and Cooper in there kills his ability to work inside, while having to deal with Wilt, and Bosh helping.


This is a general 5-year prime. That's what I'm arguing. Cooper's prime from distance during 4 straight post-seasons cannot be emphasized enough. it's not cherry picking stats, it's explaining what stats were accrued during a players' prime and how they would work on this team.



I didn't credit Thompson once. I just said that he's capable of elite scoring (Gervin-lite), and he'll have great teammates and playmakers around him to make his job easier. He's a great slasher, cutter, and mid-range shooter.

You made an excuse for him not having anyone on that Denver team to help him with scoring, and that's why he was so inefficient. Yet I bring up David Robinson's numbers and you say it's cherry picking even though I defended him much better than you did David Thompson (based on Issel/Jones compared to Sean Elliot and Vinny Del freaking Negro.



he was volume shooter in one playoff run...

other than that he shot sparingly, and in the regular season hardly shot 3's at all.

During that 4 year playoff run he took 4.2 threes per36 minutes and made 43.2% of them. How is that sparingly? How is that not enough volume or a sample size? You ragged on him only doing that one time in his career, but then I showed he did it THREE other times and you still don't agree? That's turning a blind eye to the facts.
.


How do you handle guarding Terry/Bosh P&R's then? It's similar to the deadly Terry/Dirk P&R's where you have 2 great threats that can get to the hoop, but also shoot from anywhere on the court. If you come up top/hedge to close out on Bosh, you know that leaves the paint wide open, right? It gives wilt a ton of space and also gives Terry space to shoot in the mid-range. The lineup of:

Terry
Thompson
Pierce
Bosh
Wilt

can give your team hell if you just wanna play bosh close. That's 3 great shooters and beast Wilt in the middle alone with whoever is guarding him. Terry is one of the great P&R shooting threats of his era. It definitely opens things up for Bosh having a great shooter running P&R instead of Wade or LBJ who aren't the shooting threat Terry is.

That is not 3 great shooters. Bosh is not a great shooter from 3 point land, if you want to argue he is then you HAVE to give me Michael Cooper too. And i'll defend that with you know, an all-nba defender in Chris Paul/Tony Allen on Jason Terry AND all-nba defenders (DPOY as well) in Rodman/Ibaka.






Because we'll go over his screens and have a crowded paint for him, that's why he won't have a ton of 3's. You have no spot up threats (other than "Cooper" who is hardly a 3pt elite) to open things up and create threats off the pass. Plus Gilbert shot an awful 30% from 3 in his playoff career.

Then he can make you pay, he's taken over 7 attempts in his prime from deep and made a very good percentage of them. Again, we're NOT talking about playoff careers, we're talking about playoff primes.



He never shot 4 3pt FG's in ANY playoff run. Closest he got was 3.9 and that's the anomaly season. Other than that he sparingly shot 3's. That just isn't enough to bend my defense his way and face guard him like I would for a regular 3pt shooter.

So a guy cannot space a floor if he doesn't shoot 5+ shots a game? Heck no. I don't buy this. Cooper shot 43.2% from deep combined through 4 straight playoff runs taking 4.2 attempts per36 minutes. If that's not respectable then you're again not looking at it objectively.

Wanna know why? Because guess what: Chris Bosh has never taken that many threes before either in a playoff run. His highest was 3.7 last season, and the year before that he only took 1.6 a game and the year before that only 0.9 a game.

If Cooper isn't a floor spacer, then Bosh cannot space the floor either. You can't credit Bosh for being a "great" three point shooter (which you stated above earlier in this post) and not say Cooper is far greater than Bosh and has a MUCH larger sample size to boot.



the philosophy is complete different. he's a big man that will take Rodman out of the paint and open things up for my offense. He's an ELITE mid-range shooter (was right up there with Dirk in a couple seasons in mid-range FG%) and will open up the floor and suck a big out of the paint. That is huge. His spacing is more essential than Cooper's.

Rodman's never had problems defending perimeter bigs. His spacing might be more essential to your teams' success than Cooper's, but that doesn't mean that it will be capitalized on because I have a DPOY in Dennis Rodman guarding Chris Bosh, who has been shut down by Tiago Splitter.

Again, shut down by Tiago Splitter. Dennis Rodman can't do that? Of course he can!


If you give Bosh the space to, we wouldn't mind him shooting. Like I said, elite mid-range shooter that can hit the 3 when he's hot. We can get Brand to help out on the boards if Bosh is struggling there. It's not just the starters.

He can't hit the 3, he only has 1 year where he's taken a great sample size. If Cooper's 43.2% from deep taking 4.2 per36 over a four year playoff stretch doesn't cut it then Chris Bosh's measly one year where he shot 40.5% taking 3.7 attempts a game is not even worth a mention in this debate.



Who other than your top 3? Cooper is a single digit scorer the majority of his career, as is Rodman. Arenas won't play much with Cp3 out there, Prince is hardly a threat in a game with this much talent, we all know about Tony Allen...

We're talking about primes.


My team goes 10 deep if you wanna talk scoring, plus has the defense to slow you down. Pierce can challenge Gervin, then own him on the offensive end, Wilt - elite defender plus elite scorer, Frazier - elite defender plus offensive threat, Bosh is a great shooter and Thompson a great slasher and can also kill from mid-range. My bench has great post-up threats and shooters to compliment. Your bench isn't very deep. You've barely mentioned how they'll contribute offensively. Your offense goes down the drain when they come in (also similar to the clippers).

My team is also 10-deep, my defense is far superior to yours. My 3 main scorers are far more efficient than yours, and I have a (YES!) three point spacer in Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman's offensive rebounding to capitalize on those rare misses.

My bench isn't very deep no, but Paul/Gervin/Robinson will play 40mpg anyway. Gilbert can take the scoring load off of CP3 for 10 minutes. Ibaka's a superior scorer to Rodman in every way, he can be respectable while still providing elite defense.

Your bench is overall better than mine, I concede that. But my team's defense and high-powered scoring hierarchy would take out your more balanced team that is overall inefficient, has less floor spacing than mine (again your only 3 point shooter in your starting lineup is Paul Pierce, based on your own reasoning that 1 playoff run is not a good enough sample thus Chris Bosh is not a three point shooter that is reliable in any capacity).

We're talking about primes.

Sadds The Gr8
05-22-2015, 01:50 PM
You're completely disregarding Coopers prime and how he completely rose to the occasion four STRAIGHT post-seasons in a row with an average of 43% from deep taking over 4 a game. I'm just gonna keep hammering that home.
He never took over 4 a game lol. He never even took 4 a game. The one great run he had he took 3.9, and other than that it was even below 3 per game...I don't know where you're getting 4 attempts per game from. I'd like to think that below 3 attempts per game is sparingly...

therefore he's not a consistent shooting threat.



So two players that can shoot 40% from deep for a series is no spacing?
what 2 players? and how often are they shooting them?


Rodman doesn't kill spacing, if he did then how in the world did those Pistons/Bulls teams win when they only had

Dumars who shot 8.3% from deep and 26.3% from deep taking less than 1 attempt a game in those 89 and 90 championship Pistons teams. Isaiah Thomas shot 26.7% taking 2.7 a game and then 40.8% taking 3.7 a game respectively those years in the playoffs as well.

The Bulls did not have floor spacers in their starting lineup outside of one guy during those dynasty teams. I have two guys.


Championship teams have won with a lot less than what I have, and I have better shooters, 3 elite scorers at prime positions, the greatest offensive rebounder ever at his position (and perhaps in all of the NBA) in Rodman, etc.

the league was way different back then. the 3 point shot wasn't nearly the weapon so teams could win without it. Also those teams were loaded. The Pistons had SEVERAL offensive threats (IT, Dumars, Dantley/Aguirre, Vinny, Laimbeer). The Bulls were the Bulls...

In this scenario it's obviously different since every team is loaded, but compared to other squads, yours doesn't have a high quantity of offensive firepower (only 3 real threats on the whole team).



This is a general 5-year prime. That's what I'm arguing. Cooper's prime from distance during 4 straight post-seasons cannot be emphasized enough. it's not cherry picking stats, it's explaining what stats were accrued during a players' prime and how they would work on this team.

already explained. Sparingly shot 3's. under 3 attempts per game is sparingly imo.



You made an excuse for him not having anyone on that Denver team to help him with scoring, and that's why he was so inefficient. Yet I bring up David Robinson's numbers and you say it's cherry picking even though I defended him much better than you did David Thompson (based on Issel/Jones compared to Sean Elliot and Vinny Del freaking Negro.

Thompson isn't the super talent that DRob is. He wasnt expected to lead a team the way DRob was. I'd rather my #4-5 option be inefficient than my #1. If Wilt was like that then it'd be a completely different story, but Thompson is a 4-5 option.


During that 4 year playoff run he took 4.2 threes per36 minutes and made 43.2% of them. How is that sparingly? How is that not enough volume or a sample size? You ragged on him only doing that one time in his career, but then I showed he did it THREE other times and you still don't agree? That's turning a blind eye to the facts.

you have to use per 36 to argue that he's a volume 3pt shooter? lol anybody can argue that case for a role player...there's a reason he played less than 36 mins (even less than 30 mins in some playoff runs). He wasn't a consistent offensive threat.




That is not 3 great shooters. Bosh is not a great shooter from 3 point land, if you want to argue he is then you HAVE to give me Michael Cooper too. And i'll defend that with you know, an all-nba defender in Chris Paul/Tony Allen on Jason Terry AND all-nba defenders (DPOY as well) in Rodman/Ibaka.

Bosh is an elite mid-range shooter than has the ability to shoot 3's as a big...completely different from Cooper. I'm not saying Bosh is a 3pt sniper like you're claiming Cooper is. Plus I meant what strategy would you use? Going under screens kills you, and going over also kills you. If you don't wanna help off Bosh then JET is open for mid-range or 3pt shots. If you do help off Bosh, then he's open. that's the threat my team presents. Even the guys lower on the offensive totem pole can give you trouble. Your team is run through 3 players.



Then he can make you pay, he's taken over 7 attempts in his prime from deep and made a very good percentage of them. Again, we're NOT talking about playoff careers, we're talking about playoff primes.
If you wanna talk primes, then Gil only played in 2 series, and was good in one, god awful in the other. Not a good sample size of a big time playoff shooter. He's basically a crap-shoot, and was never an elite shooter...just had a shitload of volume. He's as close to a chucker as it gets.




So a guy cannot space a floor if he doesn't shoot 5+ shots a game? Heck no. I don't buy this. Cooper shot 43.2% from deep combined through 4 straight playoff runs taking 4.2 attempts per36 minutes. If that's not respectable then you're again not looking at it objectively.
already explained...per 36........................

there's a reason he played under 30 mins per game. not consistently an offensive threat.



Wanna know why? Because guess what: Chris Bosh has never taken that many threes before either in a playoff run. His highest was 3.7 last season, and the year before that he only took 1.6 a game and the year before that only 0.9 a game.

If Cooper isn't a floor spacer, then Bosh cannot space the floor either. You can't credit Bosh for being a "great" three point shooter (which you stated above earlier in this post) and not say Cooper is far greater than Bosh and has a MUCH larger sample size to boot.

already explained. Bosh is a big which completely stretches the floor. It takes a great defender in rodman outta the paint. I never argued that Bosh is a sniper. He's an ELITE mid-range shooter that can stretch out to the 3 when he's hot. Completely stretches the defense since he's a big man. He also makes for a good decoy and you HAVE to guard him out there. He can't be left.



He can't hit the 3, he only has 1 year where he's taken a great sample size. If Cooper's 43.2% from deep taking 4.2 per36 over a four year playoff stretch doesn't cut it then Chris Bosh's measly one year where he shot 40.5% taking 3.7 attempts a game is not even worth a mention in this debate.

It's completely different. Bosh is an actual threat on offense with his all-around scoring ability and MUST be accounted for on every possession. I'm sorry but it's laughable to compare Bosh to Cooper...do you think Cooper garners the same attention as an offensive threat that Bosh does? Bosh is 20x the offensive player Cooper is, and like i said a million times, one of the elite shooting bigs from mid-range with 3 pt range. His PnR ability really helps our team and is another threat to look out for.



My team is also 10-deep, my defense is far superior to yours. My 3 main scorers are far more efficient than yours, and I have a (YES!) three point spacer in Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman's offensive rebounding to capitalize on those rare misses.
already mentioned, Drob not efficient, and will be even less so with no spacing to help him out. Bosh will be helping often with Rodman on the court. efficiency with the other 2 is irrelevant if the 2 non-threats are on the court. You don't have a lineup to throw out there if you wanna spread the floor to maximize CP3's PnR ability. Also already mentioned why Iceman would struggle...limited spacing. your team is extremely dependant on 3 players to score. Your team is 10 deep with 5-6 one-way players. My team is much more versatile.

Your team has more defensive accolades but the offense is hampered by a bunch of non-shooters, and my team his great length and elite defense as well. Frazier one of the best defenders ever, Wilt is elite, Bosh and Pierce are easily above average, and Thompson is average at worst.


My bench isn't very deep no, but Paul/Gervin/Robinson will play 40mpg anyway. Gilbert can take the scoring load off of CP3 for 10 minutes. Ibaka's a superior scorer to Rodman in every way, he can be respectable while still providing elite defense.
helps my argument. in a supposedly long series, only those 3 players are legitimate scoring threats in an ATRD. Those guys would be dog tired carrying an offense with non shooters. They all have great defenders guarding them, plus strong help behind them with the lack of shooters you have. they wouldn't be efficient, ESPECIALLY D-rob with his playoff resume, Wilt guarding him, and Bosh inside to help.


Your bench is overall better than mine, I concede that. But my team's defense and high-powered scoring hierarchy would take out your more balanced team that is overall inefficient, has less floor spacing than mine (again your only 3 point shooter in your starting lineup is Paul Pierce, based on your own reasoning that 1 playoff run is not a good enough sample thus Chris Bosh is not a three point shooter that is reliable in any capacity).
Who is inefficient on my roster??? Wilt is easily the best player in this series and should be respected as such.

How do I have less spacing than you? Pierce is a great shooter, Bosh great mid-range shooter as a big and can stretch out to 3. 2 elite shooters off the bench in Raja and JET. You literally don't have 1 great 3pt shooter on your team. Paul and Cooper sparingly shoots 3's, Gilbert is a high-volume chucker. That's all...

Redrum187
05-22-2015, 02:54 PM
I'm looking at the stats of Michael Cooper.

He has never averaged 4.0 or more 3PA in the postseason. Furthermore, using the parameter 5-year prime, Cooper's numbers become even more pedestrian. Granted, he did have 4 really good years as a 3 point shooter in the playoffs.

I just wanted to do some fact checking.

Shammyguy3
05-22-2015, 03:02 PM
I'm looking at the stats of Michael Cooper.

He has never averaged 4.0 or more 3PA in the postseason. Furthermore, using the parameter 5-year prime, Cooper's numbers become even more pedestrian. Granted, he did have 4 really good years as a 3 point shooter in the playoffs.

I just wanted to do some fact checking.
He averaged 4.2 attempts from deep per 36 during that 4 year run. That's a huge sample size over 71 games against stiffer competition in the playoffs.

greg_ory_2005
05-22-2015, 04:32 PM
Brampton <3

Shammyguy3
05-23-2015, 12:00 PM
let's get some more votes!

Sadds The Gr8
05-23-2015, 01:07 PM
He averaged 4.2 attempts from deep per 36 during that 4 year run. That's a huge sample size over 71 games against stiffer competition in the playoffs.

i remmeber the days when there'd be like 50-60 votes. now we struggle to get 30

Shammyguy3
05-23-2015, 03:13 PM
i remmeber the days when there'd be like 50-60 votes. now we struggle to get 30

We struggle to get 20 :( it's sad, especially for a matchup such as this one. This is a REALLY close series between our rosters, and I think we've argued each of our cases quite well

Shammyguy3
05-23-2015, 04:01 PM
c'mon PSD users, this is an important matchup and we only have 17 votes?!

Mr. Baller
05-23-2015, 04:07 PM
This thread is a great reason why the playoffs suck.

Shammyguy3
05-23-2015, 06:12 PM
a little over 2 hours left to vote, Brampton in the lead 11-7

Shammyguy3
05-23-2015, 08:30 PM
Brampton advances, congrats Sadds!