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Matter.
05-17-2015, 07:20 AM
List your top 10 ALLTIME perimeter defenders!

Go!

ewing
05-17-2015, 08:37 AM
thats hard.

I'll off the top of my head i'll go (in no order, just numbering to keep track of how many i have)

1) Pippen
2) Rodman
3) Bowen
4) Artest
5) Greg Anthony
6) MJ
7) Doug Chrsitie
8) Linsey Hunter
9) J KIdd
10) Tony Allen
11) Shane Battier (i forgot him but he is top 10)

It a hard list to make and I limit mine to guys i think i have seen enough of to rate. Honorable mentions go to Mo Cheeks, Kobe, Pete Myers, Leonard, and Avery Bradley.

kpjets
05-17-2015, 08:41 AM
J KIdd should be higher

ChiTownPacerFan
05-17-2015, 08:56 AM
No Gary Payton?

BradS4President
05-17-2015, 08:59 AM
1 Scottie Pippen
2 Bruce Bowen
3 Ron Artest
4 Dennis Rodman
5 Michael Jordan
6 Jason Kidd
7 James Worthy
8 Shane Battier
9 Tony Allen
10 Lebron James
11 Gary Payton

ewing
05-17-2015, 09:03 AM
No Gary Payton?

so i forgot him too

ewing
05-17-2015, 09:03 AM
What about Derrick McKey? Do people think he has a case?

FraziersKnicks
05-17-2015, 09:14 AM
thats hard.

I'll off the top of my head i'll go (in no order, just numbering to keep track of how many i have)

1) Pippen
2) Rodman
3) Bowen
4) Artest
5) Greg Anthony
6) MJ
7) Doug Chrsitie
8) Linsey Hunter
9) J KIdd
10) Tony Allen
11) Shane Battier (i forgot him but he is top 10)

It a hard list to make and I limit mine to guys i think i have seen enough of to rate. Honorable mentions go to Mo Cheeks, Kobe, Pete Myers, Leonard, and Avery Bradley.

No Glove, no good.

In no order:

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Gary Payton
Ron Artest
LeBron James
Jason Kidd
Shane Battier
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson

Honorable mention: Sidney Moncrief, Walt Frazier, Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson, Tony Allen

ewing
05-17-2015, 09:21 AM
truth is we still suck at recognizing good defensive players. I think it is getting harder instead of easier with the rule changes and homogenizing of positions as well. Man to man and ball pressure used to be more important and are easier to observe. If the Hawks make the finals is Demarre Carroll suddenly noticed and put the Butler Leonard league. He is a very good defender but never would have received any recognition at all if the Hawks won the 45 games they were expected to this year.

ewing
05-17-2015, 09:23 AM
No Glove, no good.

In no order:

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Gary Payton
Ron Artest
LeBron James
Jason Kidd
Shane Battier
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson

Honorable mention: Sidney Moncrief, Walt Frazier, Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson, Tony Allen


You named yourself after Walt Clyde Frazier and left him off the list?

IndyRealist
05-17-2015, 10:50 AM
Without making a list, Raja Bell, Derrick McKey and Dennis Johnson all deserve consideration.

Shammyguy3
05-17-2015, 12:10 PM
No order:

Scottie Pippen
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Cooper
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan
Bruce Bowen
Ron Artest
Bobby Jones
Dennis Johnson
Dennis Rodman

flea
05-17-2015, 12:14 PM
No order:

Scottie Pippen
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Cooper
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan
Bruce Bowen
Ron Artest
Bobby Jones
Dennis Johnson
Dennis Rodman

This looks fairly complete to me, but I would put Battier on instead of Jordan and add Marion.

valade16
05-17-2015, 01:09 PM
Why is there this insane love for Battier? He was good ut I wouldn't put him in my top 10. He was clearly on a lower level than guys like Bowen or Artest

rhino17
05-17-2015, 01:16 PM
Why is there this insane love for Battier? He was good ut I wouldn't put him in my top 10. He was clearly on a lower level than guys like Bowen or Artest

I'll take Battier over Bowen all day. Bowen's only skill is that he was willing to injure and cheap shot other people because he had a total lack of actual basketball skill. His actual defense is vastly overrated. I have ZERO respect for that chump

Crazy factor always weighs in more for me than pure skill, so Artest is higher because the crazy factor makes his ceiling way higher. Vernon Maxwell is in the same boat (LOL at him being left off these lists, no one guarded Jordan better).

flea
05-17-2015, 01:17 PM
Why is there this insane love for Battier? He was good ut I wouldn't put him in my top 10. He was clearly on a lower level than guys like Bowen or Artest

I don't think so. I think he might be better than both. Artest got overrated towards the end of his career. Bowen was more athletic, but relatively slight and wasn't much at the 4 even though he spent some time there. Battier had better strength, seemed headier, and could legitimately defend 4s at a high level (not stand there against non-threats aka Lebron/Magic).

Shammyguy3
05-17-2015, 01:40 PM
Why is there this insane love for Battier? He was good ut I wouldn't put him in my top 10. He was clearly on a lower level than guys like Bowen or Artest

yeah i don't think he's anywhere near the top-10 perimeter defenders ever. Marion's a good mention though

flea
05-17-2015, 01:47 PM
yeah i don't think he's anywhere near the top-10 perimeter defenders ever. Marion's a good mention though

Well according to the other thread, Lebron is an all-world defender who single-handedly led the Cavs to top defensvie teams. Yet in Miami it was Battier who checked the most dangerous 3s and 4s for most possessions, including Durant in the Finals. Therefore, he must be at least all-world because he picked up Lebron's slack.

Method28
05-17-2015, 01:59 PM
Well according to the other thread, Lebron is an all-world defender who single-handedly led the Cavs to top defensvie teams. Yet in Miami it was Battier who checked the most dangerous 3s and 4s for most possessions, including Durant in the Finals. Therefore, he must be at least all-world because he picked up Lebron's slack.
I'm a big Battier fan but the reason they had Shane on those guys instead of LeBron is to give him some time to breath. LeBron was a big piece of that team offensively and when you have a guy like Battier (who is there for that very purpose) why not use him.

Shammyguy3
05-17-2015, 02:52 PM
Well according to the other thread, Lebron is an all-world defender who single-handedly led the Cavs to top defensvie teams. Yet in Miami it was Battier who checked the most dangerous 3s and 4s for most possessions, including Durant in the Finals. Therefore, he must be at least all-world because he picked up Lebron's slack.

Prime Lebron (meaning the 2012 version) was definitely an all-world and all-time defender. But that doesn't mean he's an all-time perimeter defender like the guys being mentioned in this list.

I'd like to hear some Memphis/Houston fans on Shane Battier when he was in his prime.

PowerHouse
05-17-2015, 03:41 PM
Never any love for guys like Mookie Blaylock, Havlicek, Bobby Jones, CP3 or Tayshaun Prince in these type of lists. And as hated as he is for being considered "overrated", #8 Kobe (young Kobe) was an absolute lock down perimeter defender whenever called upon.

andy2518
05-17-2015, 03:42 PM
Battier has always been a bit overrated to me, the whole covering the face thing is cute and all, but give me the guy who fights through screens, sticks his man, and can still jump the passing lanes with accuracy any day. So difficult to be a great defender on the perimeter this day in age. They don't allow you any sort of contact especially on certain players. They have to start letting players use their body's a bit more like they used to. All these whistles really limit defenders, especially perimeter defenders. I always thought Raja Bell was very underrated.

ewing
05-17-2015, 04:07 PM
I don't think so. I think he might be better than both. Artest got overrated towards the end of his career. Bowen was more athletic, but relatively slight and wasn't much at the 4 even though he spent some time there. Battier had better strength, seemed headier, and could legitimately defend 4s at a high level (not stand there against non-threats aka Lebron/Magic).


artest was overrated at the end and underrated at the beginning. Peak Ron was better then anyone since. Shane could defend more people then Bruce but Bruce was better at defending the guys they both could.

ewing
05-17-2015, 04:10 PM
I'll take Battier over Bowen all day. Bowen's only skill is that he was willing to injure and cheap shot other people because he had a total lack of actual basketball skill. His actual defense is vastly overrated. I have ZERO respect for that chump

Crazy factor always weighs in more for me than pure skill, so Artest is higher because the crazy factor makes his ceiling way higher. Vernon Maxwell is in the same boat (LOL at him being left off these lists, no one guarded Jordan better).


Ron being insane held him back- dude was also insanely gifted.

YAALREADYKNO
05-18-2015, 12:46 PM
That's tough

Vinylman
05-18-2015, 12:54 PM
just gonna name some guys overlooked to this point

Michael Cooper
TR DUNN
Alvin Robertson
bobby jones

Vinylman
05-18-2015, 12:57 PM
moncrief also if he hasn't been mentioned

valade16
05-18-2015, 01:07 PM
I don't think so. I think he might be better than both. Artest got overrated towards the end of his career. Bowen was more athletic, but relatively slight and wasn't much at the 4 even though he spent some time there. Battier had better strength, seemed headier, and could legitimately defend 4s at a high level (not stand there against non-threats aka Lebron/Magic).

My question is why wasn't Shane Battier on any Defensive 1st teams? You can't say it's because people don't notice guys defense unless they're scoring because Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest and Tony Allen were all making multiple Defensive 1st teams while playing at the exact same time as Battier.

Byronicle
05-18-2015, 01:08 PM
I'll take Battier over Bowen all day. Bowen's only skill is that he was willing to injure and cheap shot other people because he had a total lack of actual basketball skill. His actual defense is vastly overrated. I have ZERO respect for that chump

Crazy factor always weighs in more for me than pure skill, so Artest is higher because the crazy factor makes his ceiling way higher. Vernon Maxwell is in the same boat (LOL at him being left off these lists, no one guarded Jordan better).

Bruce Bowen's defense is vastly overrated? I don't like cheap moves either but that is not going to affect my judgement

Bruce Bowen was great at doing what every defender is suppose to do, deny his guy from ever getting the ball in his hands.

kdspurman
05-18-2015, 01:09 PM
I'll take Battier over Bowen all day. Bowen's only skill is that he was willing to injure and cheap shot other people because he had a total lack of actual basketball skill His actual defense is vastly overrated. I have ZERO respect for that chump

Crazy factor always weighs in more for me than pure skill, so Artest is higher because the crazy factor makes his ceiling way higher. Vernon Maxwell is in the same boat (LOL at him being left off these lists, no one guarded Jordan better).

So much wrong with that. If you would take Battier over Bowen, fine. But yea. That was far from his only skill

Byronicle
05-18-2015, 01:09 PM
Shane Battier is an overrated defender

Got lots of media hype for his "Kobe Defense Bible", and that is mainly because it was Kobe - related

Byronicle
05-18-2015, 01:10 PM
No Stockton?

YAALREADYKNO
05-18-2015, 01:50 PM
Shawn Marion should've been on a couple of defensive teams in his career

flea
05-18-2015, 06:06 PM
My question is why wasn't Shane Battier on any Defensive 1st teams? You can't say it's because people don't notice guys defense unless they're scoring because Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest and Tony Allen were all making multiple Defensive 1st teams while playing at the exact same time as Battier.

I don't care about popularity contest awards. Battier was a more impactful defender Kobe and Lebron for his whole career, yet Kobe has the most first team all-defense selections ever (tied with a few others) and Lebron laughably finished top 3 in DPOY mostly because of his own chirping and some highlight reels of chasedown blocks. Chauncey Billups has the same number of selections for all-defense that Battier does and he is one of the best defensive guards I've seen.

Battier and Gasol made Memphis a great defensive team for much of his prime, despite playing with relatively weak defenders around them. Gasol was a good defender in prime (and still is pretty solid) but he wasn't going to carry defenses to top 5 ratings alone. Then in Houston, where I watched Battier mostly, he had them where they needed to be defensively no matter who played. Yao was in and out of lineups, T-Mac was pretty much done as a big defensive contributor, and Scola/Brooks/Alston were as bad as they ever were. Then, Battier got to contribute for the Heat when he was past his prime, yet still was one of the more important defenders on the team because he allowed Lebron to rest defensively while still keeping 4 shooters around him.

He didn't make more all-defenses because he didn't rack up blocks and steals, but it's tough to do that at his position. Guards usually have quicker hands for on-ball steals so you have to really gamble a lot as a forward to get turnovers. Shawn Marion's don't come around everyday. I still think he's deserving of being in the conversation of greatest all time because he was definitely a top 5 non-big defender of his era. Plus, every coach and teammate has raved about what he does - for what that's worth.

FlashBolt
05-18-2015, 06:11 PM
Crazy how MJ has two of the best perimeter defenders on his team. What a stacked Bulls team.

Matter.
05-18-2015, 07:33 PM
Moncrief being underrated

ManningToTyree
05-18-2015, 07:42 PM
No order:

Jordan
Lebron
Payton
Pippen
Rodman
Artest
Dumars
Bowen
Cooper
Frazier

LA_Raiders
05-18-2015, 07:43 PM
Too much hate for the twelve time all defensive team: the black mamba.

ewing
05-18-2015, 08:26 PM
I don't care about popularity contest awards. Battier was a more impactful defender Kobe and Lebron for his whole career, yet Kobe has the most first team all-defense selections ever (tied with a few others) and Lebron laughably finished top 3 in DPOY mostly because of his own chirping and some highlight reels of chasedown blocks. Chauncey Billups has the same number of selections for all-defense that Battier does and he is one of the best defensive guards I've seen.

Battier and Gasol made Memphis a great defensive team for much of his prime, despite playing with relatively weak defenders around them. Gasol was a good defender in prime (and still is pretty solid) but he wasn't going to carry defenses to top 5 ratings alone. Then in Houston, where I watched Battier mostly, he had them where they needed to be defensively no matter who played. Yao was in and out of lineups, T-Mac was pretty much done as a big defensive contributor, and Scola/Brooks/Alston were as bad as they ever were. Then, Battier got to contribute for the Heat when he was past his prime, yet still was one of the more important defenders on the team because he allowed Lebron to rest defensively while still keeping 4 shooters around him.

He didn't make more all-defenses because he didn't rack up blocks and steals, but it's tough to do that at his position. Guards usually have quicker hands for on-ball steals so you have to really gamble a lot as a forward to get turnovers. Shawn Marion's don't come around everyday. I still think he's deserving of being in the conversation of greatest all time because he was definitely a top 5 non-big defender of his era. Plus, every coach and teammate has raved about what he does - for what that's worth.



Marion loses points for me because i do not think he was a totally elite lock down one on one defender. he defended everyone well, always in the right spots, allowed you to switch on anything but i never saw him as a player you sic on and opposing scorer the way you could a Bowen or Artest. agree or disagree?

ewing
05-18-2015, 08:30 PM
should James Posey get some consideration? He was mister 3 and D befor in was en vouge. I feel like there are bunch of guys who should be in the conversation but are not all stars or even full time players b/c they never found the right fit.

ewing
05-18-2015, 08:39 PM
Crazy how MJ has two of the best perimeter defenders on his team. What a stacked Bulls team.

when he left for a year they replaced him with Pete Myers who was a hell of a defender in his own right. It was really all he did but he was another long, versatile, great pressure defender. During the Bulls first 3 peat there were times it was hard team to get it across half court.

ewing
05-18-2015, 09:06 PM
Why is there this insane love for Battier? He was good ut I wouldn't put him in my top 10. He was clearly on a lower level than guys like Bowen or Artest


i think he'd be top 5 at least if he was better those guys

andy2518
05-18-2015, 09:17 PM
Too much hate for the twelve time all defensive team: the black mamba.

Not sure if it's hate, just that some of those 12 selections were pretty questionable in his later years.

andy2518
05-18-2015, 09:23 PM
No order:

Jordan
Lebron
Payton
Pippen
Rodman
Artest
Dumars
Bowen
Cooper
Frazier

Rodman primarily defended in the post. Though he was certainly capable of perimeter defense as well. Not sure if I would include him on this list though. At least not in the top five. LBJ is way too high. Also, I would rank Pippen above just about anyone as far as perimeter defenders go.

EDIT: My bad, just realized you said not in any particular order. Still, wouldn't have Rodman on here because I don't think he qualifies (if anyone wants to make a case to challenge I would love to hear) and I still might not have LBJ on here. Much like Kobe, his defense is vastly overrated IMO. Both were great don't get me wrong, just not all-time top ten great in terms of perimeter defense.

ewing
05-18-2015, 10:02 PM
Dennis defended a lot more perimeter guys in Detroit. I will look for more supporting evidence but he was a great defender everywhere.

FlashBolt
05-18-2015, 10:18 PM
Kobe's defense was the best during 2001-2002. His last few All-NBA teams were a joke and we all know that. Its become more of a reputation kinda thing than a legit accolade.

YAALREADYKNO
05-19-2015, 05:11 PM
Marion loses points for me because i do not think he was a totally elite lock down one on one defender. he defended everyone well, always in the right spots, allowed you to switch on anything but i never saw him as a player you sic on and opposing scorer the way you could a Bowen or Artest. agree or disagree?

Is raja bell a better defender than marion?

Chronz
05-19-2015, 06:00 PM
I missed a great thread but you guys sound like u missed prime battier in Memphis and Houston

flea
05-19-2015, 07:50 PM
Marion loses points for me because i do not think he was a totally elite lock down one on one defender. he defended everyone well, always in the right spots, allowed you to switch on anything but i never saw him as a player you sic on and opposing scorer the way you could a Bowen or Artest. agree or disagree?

I dunno, he played PF a lot of the time when I watched him and often guarded PFs or Cs. I think he'd be remembered more fondly if he'd had a legitimate rim protector behind him. He did a great job on Lebron in 2011, but honestly you don't need a lot of lateral quickness to defend Lebron (or most forwards for that matter). Just good instincts and positioning - we've seen Boris Diaw defend Lebron adequately for stretches before. I think as far as that goes he and Battier were the elites of their generation.

Bowen/Artest, more athletic, but probably not as heady. Bowen's athletic prime was basically spent outside of the NBA, so that says something for his discipline (as well as offensive ineptitude). If I need to stop PGs I'd rather have Bowen, anybody else and I'd rather have Marion/Artest/Battier.

Tony_Starks
05-19-2015, 08:12 PM
Ruben Patterson
Bruce Bowen
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Raja Bell
Tony Allen
Doug Christie
Matt Barnes
Thabo Sefolosha
Grant Hill (old)



All elite wing defenders. All got completely served by some dude who just so happened to be defending their teams best wing while doing so.

A bad man, he is........

NYKalltheway
05-20-2015, 08:16 PM
Sidney Moncrief
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Johnson
Gary Payton
Bruce Bowen
Maurice Cheeks

Can also consider for the top 10
Jason Kidd
Michael Cooper
Mookie Blaylock
Tony Allen
Alvin Robertson
Doug Christie
Ron Artest
John Stockton
John Havlicek
Lebron James
Grant Hill

Mr.B
05-21-2015, 12:00 AM
No Stockton?

Exactly what I was thinking. He definitely deserves to be on this list. Everyone needs to take a look at the all time career steals list, and look at the margin between #1 and #2.

YAALREADYKNO
05-21-2015, 05:15 PM
I dunno, he played PF a lot of the time when I watched him and often guarded PFs or Cs. I think he'd be remembered more fondly if he'd had a legitimate rim protector behind him. He did a great job on Lebron in 2011, but honestly you don't need a lot of lateral quickness to defend Lebron (or most forwards for that matter). Just good instincts and positioning - we've seen Boris Diaw defend Lebron adequately for stretches before. I think as far as that goes he and Battier were the elites of their generation.

Bowen/Artest, more athletic, but probably not as heady. Bowen's athletic prime was basically spent outside of the NBA, so that says something for his discipline (as well as offensive ineptitude). If I need to stop PGs I'd rather have Bowen, anybody else and I'd rather have Marion/Artest/Battier.

prime marion was more athletic than bowen tho and prime marion defended 1-4 on any given night. One night it would be Kobe the next it would be Dirk. Not saying he's as good as any of those other guys but the dude is so underrated on Defense.