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View Full Version : Which Tandom wins the most titles? Kobe/Shaq...Mike/Shaq...Bron/Shaq



IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 09:22 PM
Imagine this scenario. Lebron, Mike, Shaq, Kobe all enter the NBA in the year 2000 at the age of 20. Which wing would you want to pair with Shaq that gives the most rings? Which wing would "fit" better with Shaq creating the overall more powerful combo? Is there a difference?

cmellofan15
05-16-2015, 09:29 PM
Jordan, pretty easily

JasonJohnHorn
05-16-2015, 09:41 PM
Jordan, pretty easily

+1

I love LBJ as much as the next guy, but Jordan/Shaq would have been disgusting.

That said, I think LBJ and Shaq would get along the best of the three duos and would be more likely to stay together longer. I think Jordan would have run out of patience with Shaq in terms of his effort on the court. There is a reason why the Bulls won 72 games one year. Jordan could not turn compete-mode off. He was always pushing himself to win. I think Shaq had a tendency to coast, and that would have infuriated Jordan. I think a Jordan/Shaq duo would have been more likely to implode than the Kobe/Shaq duo because Shaq at least had the advantage of being clearly the better player when they started out together, and so had alpha standing the first few seasons. With Jordan, Shaq would have never had the alpha standing. Of course, that may have also turned Shaq into a more competitive player.



Anybody who thinks that Kobe's 'perimeter' game is better than Jordan's, doesn't know what they are talking about.

Anybody who thinks Kobe is the best shooter of the three never watched Jordan play, and hasn't bother to compare LBJ's and Kobe's 3-point percentages. Not only is LBJ's career 3% higher, but he's improved dramatically in the last few years. With Shaq getting so many double teams, that would open things up for LBJ big time.

The same for Jordan. Jordan's mid-range fade away is the stuff of legend. Shaq drawing in double teams would have given him so much space, and when Jordan cut to the basket and drew the double team himself, he would have had a finisher in the post that he never had in his career. And if defense were collapsing on Shaq and Jordan, or Shaq and LBJ, both LBJ and Jordan have proved able play makers (far more so than Kobe) and would have been able to open shooters like Kerr or whoever is on the team. Because if you have three guys cover two, that mean that other two are badly spaced out between three perimeter guys. LBJ and Jordan have proven to be far better play makers than Kobe, and that is the biggest difference here. The only time I remember Kobe passing to Horry during the Shaq/Kobe days was when he passed Horry the ball by bouncing it to him of the heel of the rim.

We saw what Kobe did with that. Three rings with a lot of help from officials and some very close calls where Horry and Fisher bailed them out.

Interesting question though. Thanks for sharing.

xbrackattackx
05-16-2015, 09:53 PM
Jordan
Lebron
Kobe


Kobe last cause we already know they don't end up geling.

xbrackattackx
05-16-2015, 09:54 PM
Jordan
Lebron
Kobe


Kobe last cause we already know they don't end up geling.

jerellh528
05-16-2015, 09:54 PM
Kobe-Shaq, because Kobe has the best perimeter game of the 3. Jordan- Shaq combo might've been worse personality wise than Kobe-Shaq, Jordan's ego was larger than Kobe's and shaqs combined. Lebron and Shaq probably would've gotten together better than any, but I don't think Lebron could've gotten as much outta Shaq or vice versa due to lebron's lack of an elite perimeter game and lebron's drive n dish style.

flea
05-16-2015, 09:59 PM
Kobe-Shaq, because Kobe has the best perimeter game of the 3. Jordan- Shaq combo might've been worse personality wise than Kobe-Shaq, Jordan's ego was larger than Kobe's and shaqs combined. Lebron and Shaq probably would've gotten together better than any, but I don't think Lebron could've gotten as much outta Shaq or vice versa due to lebron's lack of an elite perimeter game and lebron's drive n dish style.

I agree. People worship Shaq but he was still a paint clogger. Probably the best paint clogger of all time, but he was one nevertheless. Shut down the paint and Lebron becomes a mediocre and turnover-prone jumpshooter. Shutting down the paint on Michael was much harder because of his handles and craftiness, but he still benefited with shooters around him. In today's rules even moreso he would need shooters.

Give me Colby Brian.

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 09:59 PM
I hope I don't get rapped for saying this, but I don't think LBJ and Shaq would have been all that successful. LBJ is an attacking "drive to the rim" type player, and I just don't think someone with that style would be successful with Shaq clogging the lane. You're basically going to dare LBJ to beat you with jump shots.


I'm taking Kobe and Shaq. #lakerpride

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 10:01 PM
damn-it, people beat me on the Shaq lane clogging comment.

More-Than-Most
05-16-2015, 10:05 PM
Bron/Shaq pretty easily... You guys just do not realize how much he makes other players around him better and his insane defense in his prime.. Its either Bron/Shaq or Jordan/Shaq... Kobe shaq is a distant 3rd.

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:14 PM
Kobe Shaq because he is the best shooter of the bunch. Anyone who says Bron Shaq is completely ignoring the playing style of the two and just saying that because they think Bron is better than Kobe. Bron is the worst shooter of the bunch whose bread and butter is top of the key dribble drive penetration - his ability to do that would be heavily negated by Shaq's presence clogging the paint.

If Kobe and Shaq got along they would have had a shot to win 6+ rings together. Not sure MJ would thrive as the "out" option in an inside-out combo and Shaq in the triangle was going to be option #1 no matter what perimeter guy you have out there - including Michael Jordan. Kobe's skillset is best suited to play that role out of the three.

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 10:15 PM
Bron/Shaq pretty easily... You guys just do not realize how much he makes other players around him better and his insane defense in his prime.. Its either Bron/Shaq or Jordan/Shaq... Kobe shaq is a distant 3rd.

In what specific ways does LBJ make people better that would indicate a successful relationship with Shaq?

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:19 PM
In what specific ways does LBJ make people better that would indicate a successful relationship with Shaq?

None.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:20 PM
In what specific ways does LBJ make people better that would indicate a successful relationship with Shaq?

If Lebron can make Tristan Thompson (12 year old Shaq) a beast off pick and roll, and an alley-oop threat in transition, what do you think is going to happen with Shaq? Bro gets off on getting people the ball. What do think he's gonna do with Shaq? Shaq is the biggest target ever and he's a force of nature. Bron loves to pass the ball and he is a super intelligent basketball player. Not only will he want to get Shaq the ball, he knows its the smartest basketball play all day long.

bucketss
05-16-2015, 10:21 PM
lebron/shaq thats just unfair................

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:22 PM
If Lebron can make Tristan Thompson (12 year old Shaq) a beast off pick and roll, and an alley-oop threat in transition, what do you think is going to happen with Shaq.

Shaq refused to come out and guard pick and rolls, you think he is gonna be down with constant screen setting and rolling for LeBron? Shaq was a post up player, not a pick and roll player.

Shaq was one of the most gifted post players ever, big men who can do what he do in the post don't spend their time begging for lobs and waiting for gaps off pick and roll. You feed them the ball and they go to work.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:25 PM
Shaq refused to come out and guard pick and rolls, you think he is gonna be down with constant screen setting and rolling for LeBron? Shaq was a post up player, not a pick and roll player.

Shaq was one of the most gifted post players ever, big men who can do what he do in the post don't spend their time begging for lobs and waiting for gaps off pick and roll. You feed them the ball and they go to work.

Thats fine, Lebron will have no problem expending less energy and just dumping it down to Shaq and playing off his double and triple teams.

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:26 PM
Thats fine, Lebron will have no problem expending less energy and just dumping it down to Shaq and playing off his double and triple teams.

And in that realistic scenario Kobe is a much better fit to do just that than LeBron is.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:27 PM
Shaq refused to come out and guard pick and rolls, you think he is gonna be down with constant screen setting and rolling for LeBron? Shaq was a post up player, not a pick and roll player.

Shaq was one of the most gifted post players ever, big men who can do what he do in the post don't spend their time begging for lobs and waiting for gaps off pick and roll. You feed them the ball and they go to work.

Dude...guarding a pick and roll and setting a pick and rolling to the basket to receive your own alley-ooo dunk have nothing to do with each other. Please don't try and make that connection as part of your argument. You can make an argument with real stuff.

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 10:28 PM
Thats fine, Lebron will have no problem expending less energy and just dumping it down to Shaq and playing off his double and triple teams.

WHich goes back to everyone's point. Double teaming Shaq clogs the lane, which would then force LBJ to the perimeter.

Jamiecballer
05-16-2015, 10:29 PM
Imagine this scenario. Lebron, Mike, Shaq, Kobe all enter the NBA in the year 2000 at the age of 20. Which wing would you want to pair with Shaq that gives the most rings? Which wing would "fit" better with Shaq creating the overall more powerful combo? Is there a difference?

to me it goes without saying. Lebron/Shaq. Ego gets in the way of the other pairings.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:31 PM
And in that realistic scenario Kobe is a much better fit to do just that than LeBron is.

No he is not because Lebron is going to make the right play off the ball where as Kobe is going to try and score off the ball. If Lebron gets the ball off of a Shaq double, the next place the ball is going is for a dunk or a wide open shot for another player that Bron finds. He already creates so much off of his own penetration, now allow him to piggyback off of attention Shaq is already taking up and you will just get and even more efficient and unstoppable Lebron, which was already more efficient and unstoppable than the Kobe that had Shaq.

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:31 PM
Dude...guarding a pick and roll and setting a pick and rolling to the basket to receive your own alley-ooo dunk have nothing to do with each other. Please don't try and make that connection as part of your argument. You can make an argument with real stuff.

Shaq wasn't going to be playing 20 feet from the basket on either end of the court. That was my point. Have you ever heard him discuss pick and roll big men? That should be enough to let you know he wasn't down with that type of big boy basketball. Pick and roll big men are pick and roll specialists because they can't operate in the post. When you can score 1 on 1 against anyone in the post, you don't call for that guy to set screens 20 feet from the basket hoping they can get open off the roll for a high percentage shot. You feed them the ball deep knowing they can get a high percentage shot. When you have a top notch post player, you build your offense around it, because top notch post players have been dominating the league since its inception.

Jamiecballer
05-16-2015, 10:31 PM
And in that realistic scenario Kobe is a much better fit to do just that than LeBron is.

ya, minus the whole passing part.

Raps18-19 Champ
05-16-2015, 10:31 PM
LOL Jordan and Shaq wouldn't last a full season. Either Shaq demands a trade or Jordan forces management's hand to trade Shaq.

Teufelshunde4
05-16-2015, 10:32 PM
Also need to remember young MJ was a pure slasher. Mid career MJ added a mid range arsenal. Late career MJ operated much like a post player as well.

Shaq wouldn't have helped with MJ at all. Shaq didn't win titles because of him... with Kobe and Phil and how Phil was the master at getting guys to buy into roles and having a subtle touch for game strategy. Really Kobe was nest fit for Shaq of the 3 imo..

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:34 PM
No he is not because Lebron is going to make the right play off the ball where as Kobe is going to try and score off the ball. If Lebron gets the ball off of a Shaq double, the next place the ball is going is for a dunk or a wide open shot for another player that Bron finds. He already creates so much off of his own penetration, now allow him to piggyback off of attention Shaq is already taking up and you will just get and even more efficient and unstoppable Lebron, which was already more efficient and unstoppable than the Kobe that had Shaq.

Shaq's presence is a massive hindrance to LeBron's penetration. That's the point. He would be relegated to catch and shoot and isolation. That's how inside out basketball works. That's not his game.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:35 PM
WHich goes back to everyone's point. Double teaming Shaq clogs the lane, which would then force LBJ to the perimeter.

Double teams on Shaq open up lanes for Bron to create in. Puts the defense on there heels with Lebron coming full speed. I like those odds better than giving Kobe the ball.

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 10:36 PM
ya, minus the whole passing part.

lmfao

More-Than-Most
05-16-2015, 10:36 PM
If Lebron can make Tristan Thompson (12 year old Shaq) a beast off pick and roll, and an alley-oop threat in transition, what do you think is going to happen with Shaq? Bro gets off on getting people the ball. What do think he's gonna do with Shaq? Shaq is the biggest target ever and he's a force of nature. Bron loves to pass the ball and he is a super intelligent basketball player. Not only will he want to get Shaq the ball, he knows its the smartest basketball play all day long.

yup but people will just focus on others can shoot better... Like what? You dont think there will be shooters on the team.. Give me the all around better player who plays insane defense and is the best with the ball and delivering it to others... Like its not hard to understand basketball... Finding a shooter wont be hard. Bron and shaq is unfair.

ATX
05-16-2015, 10:37 PM
Hard to argue with MJ/Shaq, but I'm going LBJ/Shaq. James is a willing passer and better rebounder. Ego issues apparent and James is the superior "Team" player. Chemistry would be best imo with LBJ/Shaq.

D-Leethal
05-16-2015, 10:38 PM
Double teams on Shaq open up lanes for Bron to create in. Puts the defense on there heels with Lebron coming full speed. I like those odds better than giving Kobe the ball.

lol, full speed into what? A paint clogged with 4 bodies?

Your clearly Don'tKnowHoops as much as you think you do. Shaq clogs driving lanes, doesn't open them, he opens up space for shooters.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:39 PM
Shaq's presence is a massive hindrance to LeBron's penetration. That's the point. He would be relegated to catch and shoot and isolation. That's how inside out basketball works. That's not his game.

Hebron sees guys sagging off waiting for him anyway. The lane would open up more for him if he's slashing while two guys are humping Shaq. Its not clogged if Shq is 8 feet from the basket, and the two guys on him are connected to him. Thats an open lane.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:42 PM
lol, full speed into what? A paint clogged with 4 bodies?

Your clearly Don'tKnowHoops as much as you think you do. Shaq clogs driving lanes, doesn't open them, he opens up space for shooters.

And we have already seen the proof that Shaq and Kobe won't last yet your hubris tricks you into thinking 3 rings is more than what MJ and Bron would of had with Shaq. Please look in the mirror before you start testing my hoops knowledge.

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 10:43 PM
Double teams on Shaq open up lanes for Bron to create in. Puts the defense on there heels with Lebron coming full speed. I like those odds better than giving Kobe the ball.

LBJ going full speed into a crowded lane is what the defense would want.

KnicksorBust
05-16-2015, 10:45 PM
As fun as it would be to pretend I think the answer is Lebron its clearly MJ.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:47 PM
LBJ going full speed into a crowded lane is what the defense would want.

Why so he could pass to a wide open 3pt specialist?

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:49 PM
As fun as it would be to pretend I think the answer is Lebron its clearly MJ.

Part of me feel this, but also part of me know LBJ/Shaq is unfair.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 10:51 PM
As fun as it would be to pretend I think the answer is Lebron its clearly MJ.

Imagine Shaq getting the ball as much as he wanted, and all the time when he was in position. Imagine Lebron playing on a court where his teammate is getting constant double and triple teams. Imagine Phil coaching them.

Ty22Mitchell
05-16-2015, 10:57 PM
Why so he could pass to a wide open 3pt specialist?

You're making an inference on the hypothetical question put forth. The question wasn't build a team around A and B, but how A and B would do in a pairing.

Bostonjorge
05-16-2015, 11:05 PM
Shaq/jordan would of killed the league but to bad they would of killed each other first. Mainly because we would call them Shaq and Jordan. This would drive young Jordan crazy and trying to show up prime diesel is a no no.

20 year old Kobe joining shaq gets you 3 rings just like in real life. Shaq and Kobe own the league right away with a three peat and everything else along the way. Three years and three rings.

James with Shaq could work since Shaq would dominate the relationship and james will be a loyal sidekick. James would have no MVP's and no finals MVP's of course. We would finall see James in a different offense since the offense would revole around Shaq. I think would bow down to Shaq so they could last but James weak mind in the clutch would be there down fall.

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 11:13 PM
You're making an inference on the hypothetical question put forth. The question wasn't build a team around A and B, but how A and B would do in a pairing.

...on the floor with 3 other players at a time, not in a two on two tournament. Oh you thought I meant a 2 on 2 tourney?

Dade County
05-16-2015, 11:14 PM
Prime Wade & Prime Shaq win more rings then all

IKnowHoops
05-16-2015, 11:15 PM
Shaq/jordan would of killed the league but to bad they would of killed each other first. Mainly because we would call them Shaq and Jordan. This would drive young Jordan crazy and trying to show up prime diesel is a no no.

20 year old Kobe joining shaq gets you 3 rings just like in real life. Shaq and Kobe own the league right away with a three peat and everything else along the way. Three years and three rings.

James with Shaq could work since Shaq would dominate the relationship and james will be a loyal sidekick. James would have no MVP's and no finals MVP's of course. We would finall see James in a different offense since the offense would revole around Shaq. I think would bow down to Shaq so they could last but James weak mind in the clutch would be there down fall.

Hilarious breakdown.

flea
05-16-2015, 11:16 PM
No matter who you put together if they played this season in the NBA every single team that played them would have all 12 actives with 5 or 6 fouls by the end of the game, which would last upwards of 4 hours. Maybe 4 hours of free throw practice a night would get Shaq to respectability.

slashsnake
05-16-2015, 11:52 PM
I wonder about Lebron/Shaq. You want a guy hitting open shots off the double on Shaq... fine, get JJ Reddick out there, he will get found. But doing that isn't what you want your top guy living off of.

You are taking one of the best off the dribble driving passers to the big man underneath with the size and height to get over or around players and forcing their best big to decide, do you try and step over and stop Lebron or do you not leave Shaq wide open underneath or let a perimeter guard step in to help get in front of him?

I understand "clogging the lane" but it isn't like you will be having Shaq standing in front of every Lebron drive. Move him over to the weak side and you force them to step over and leave Shaq alone, or you lose your inside presence when Lebron goes to the hole. You can rotate for a couple seconds and drop that 220 lb perimeter player over on Tristan Thompson and he won't kill you every single time if you step away from him to help inside on Lebron. You put that guy on Shaq... you are putting your guys on a LOT of posters.

And we actually have a good look at this in reality. Think back to a young not fully polished Shaq and how amazingly well that worked with a young Penny who isn't near the talent of Lebron but played a LOT like him. Once Shaq left, interior defenders could close on him when he went to the hole. 51.4% shooter became a 43% shooter the minute Shaq left (57% on 2's with Shaq his last two years to 47% without before his leg injuries). Shaq didn't clog the middle. He made the other teams center wait to decide if he should step over to defend the drive and leave the best big man in the league unguarded by the rim.

Earlier Shaq I think with Bron would have been insane on the fast break too. In the end, you'd have arguably the best passing, scoring and rebounding center, with the best passing, scoring and rebounding small forward. That is a lot of dynamic talent.

Of course Jordan plus Shaq would be insanity as well.

NYKnickFanatic
05-17-2015, 12:03 AM
Bron/Shaq

Ty22Mitchell
05-17-2015, 12:13 AM
...on the floor with 3 other players at a time, not in a two on two tournament. Oh you thought I meant a 2 on 2 tourney?

No I thought it was five on five.

dhopisthename
05-17-2015, 12:21 AM
its which ever one wouldn't mind sharing the spot light with shaq. it clearly bothered kobe and who knows how it affects lebron and jordan

vics
05-17-2015, 12:57 AM
Lebron and Shaq would be the most dominating duo.

Pakman
05-17-2015, 01:11 AM
Prime Wade & Prime Shaq win more rings then all
Was waiting for this smh.[emoji57]

FlashBolt
05-17-2015, 01:45 AM
So Kobe is a better shooter? Might as well put him with Nash then... #LOGIC.

cahawk
05-17-2015, 02:33 AM
Any star & Shaq.....except kobe.

FraziersKnicks
05-17-2015, 04:07 AM
LeBron & Shaq

They would be the most likely to get on and not have ego issues. Jordan is the better player but I can't imagine him handling Shaq coming into training camp 30 pounds overweight.

We saw how Kobe/Shaq played out. Also people need to stop overstating this whole "LBJ can't shoot, Shaq would clog up the paint". Did Kobe only shoot jump shots in the 8 years they were together? Of course not. They worked fine. Get a stretch 4 in there (ie Horry), a knockdown shooting PG (ie Fisher) and a 3 & D SG and that team would thrive.

Also to those saying Kobe/Shaq worked because of Kobe's mid range/3 point game here are some numbers. I'm never entirely comfortable judging a players jump shot straight after high school where he's been able to jump over every opponent so let's go from the start of their age 24 seasons, when they've finally reached their fundamental peaks.

LeBron 16-23 feet: 40.5% (26.2% of shots from this range)
Kobe 16-23 feet: 40.7% (27.9% of shots from this range)

LeBron 3PT: 35.5% (20.7% of shots)
Kobe 3PT: 34% (22% of shots)

Pretty much identical from midrange and LeBron slightly better from 3.

LeBron/Shaq would have had absolutely zero problems with spacing and the lowest chance of an ego clash.

Andrew32
05-17-2015, 05:23 AM
Jordan & Shaq is probably my dream duo.
Most unstoppable guard ever matched with the most unstoppable center ever.

I also don't think they'd nessasarily end up fighting with eachother.
Jordan wasn't an introvert and he was much more advanced socially then Kobe was and is smart enough to recognize and value a talent like Shaq.
He was very smart and he would probably develop a relationship with O'neal rather then a rivalry just like he did with Pippen (who had a much bigger ego then people remember).

Anyway he allowed a guy like Pippen to be the primary ball handler on some of his title teams and let him have averages like 20ppg / 7apg etc...
I am sure he'd have no problem making sure Shaq got his touches so the big fella wouldn't get upset.

Plus I imagine they'd win a string of titles together and winning helps dampen any negative feelings.
Had the Lakers won in 03 or 04 I am not sure Shaq & Kobe would have split despite their obvious dislike for eachother.
Some people act like Shaq was some nasty dude.
He has always been a good hearted individual at his core and outside of Kobe he didn't really beef with anyone from 93-06 (his Prime years). He much preferred to get along with guys and especially in the early 00's tried many times to create a relationship with Kobe.

I imagine that Shaq & Jordan would look very much like Shaq & Kobe did in the 01 playoffs. Absolute dominance.
I mean both of these guys at their best were utterly indefensible despite facing double/triple teams constantly.
How on earth do you pick your poison between those two?

Plus Jordan was truly the ultimate late game guy (numbers I have seen set him far above the rest) so for those who think Shaq can't handle that it is no longer a problem.

I'd take Shaq & Jordan.
I suppose Shaq & Bron would probably be my second choice followed by Kobe since we know he and Shaq simply didn't mesh personality wise.

LakersIn5
05-17-2015, 09:03 AM
Kobe shaq won 3 rings 2000 to 2002 so for those saying jordan/lebron would win more? Then from which team are they takong a ring from? The spurs 03/05 or the pistons 04?

Minimal
05-17-2015, 09:29 AM
Bron/Shaq no question. I think their character jelling will be the strongest part of them wrecking other teams.

Andrew32
05-17-2015, 09:44 AM
Kobe shaq won 3 rings 2000 to 2002 so for those saying jordan/lebron would win more? Then from which team are they takong a ring from? The spurs 03/05 or the pistons 04?

I think both years would be a possibility with Prime Jordan or Lebron.
The 03 series especially was very close and Kobe played pretty badly in some of the losses.
Kobe was unfortunately injured in that 03 series. Many guys wouldn't have played with an injured shoulder the way he did back then.

Also if we are pretending they are replacing the Shaq & Kobe duo for those years then 97-99 would also become possible contender years.
98 for example would become a strong possibility if you replaced Kobe with 2nd year Jordan or Bron.
99 also becomes a strong possibility.

97 I don't see them winning but with rookie Jordan maybe they'd have a distant shot?

LakersIn5
05-17-2015, 12:23 PM
I think both years would be a possibility with Prime Jordan or Lebron.
The 03 series especially was very close and Kobe played pretty badly in some of the losses.
Kobe was unfortunately injured in that 03 series. Many guys wouldn't have played with an injured shoulder the way he did back then.

Also if we are pretending they are replacing the Shaq & Kobe duo for those years then 97-99 would also become possible contender years.
98 for example would become a strong possibility if you replaced Kobe with 2nd year Jordan or Bron.
99 also becomes a strong possibility.

97 I don't see them winning but with rookie Jordan maybe they'd have a distant shot?
No. The thread said starting 2000. cuz we all know that kobe didnt start his beasting until his 3rd year unlike lebron jordan who are already future guaranteed stars coming into the league. Kobe had off games during those losses in the early 2000s but its also a huge possibilty that lebron can also have a bad series as we saw in 2011 and 2014 even with a great team. So in 2003 he could have struggled against the spurs too or in 2004 he could be the one raping the white chick and losing his focus and that prime pistons team locked down the entire laker team including shaq. Lebron wouldnt have carried that lakers to a win against the pistons too.

And to answer the question. I choose jordan. 2 top 5 players of all time in their prime. Damn. Will win atleast 6. But losing twice to the spurs lead by duncan and kobe

flea
05-17-2015, 12:36 PM
I think both years would be a possibility with Prime Jordan or Lebron.
The 03 series especially was very close and Kobe played pretty badly in some of the losses.
Kobe was unfortunately injured in that 03 series. Many guys wouldn't have played with an injured shoulder the way he did back then.

Also if we are pretending they are replacing the Shaq & Kobe duo for those years then 97-99 would also become possible contender years.
98 for example would become a strong possibility if you replaced Kobe with 2nd year Jordan or Bron.
99 also becomes a strong possibility.

97 I don't see them winning but with rookie Jordan maybe they'd have a distant shot?

No it wasn't, 3 of the Spurs wins were blowouts.

D-Leethal
05-17-2015, 01:57 PM
LeBron & Shaq

They would be the most likely to get on and not have ego issues. Jordan is the better player but I can't imagine him handling Shaq coming into training camp 30 pounds overweight.

We saw how Kobe/Shaq played out. Also people need to stop overstating this whole "LBJ can't shoot, Shaq would clog up the paint". Did Kobe only shoot jump shots in the 8 years they were together? Of course not. They worked fine. Get a stretch 4 in there (ie Horry), a knockdown shooting PG (ie Fisher) and a 3 & D SG and that team would thrive.

Also to those saying Kobe/Shaq worked because of Kobe's mid range/3 point game here are some numbers. I'm never entirely comfortable judging a players jump shot straight after high school where he's been able to jump over every opponent so let's go from the start of their age 24 seasons, when they've finally reached their fundamental peaks.

LeBron 16-23 feet: 40.5% (26.2% of shots from this range)
Kobe 16-23 feet: 40.7% (27.9% of shots from this range)

LeBron 3PT: 35.5% (20.7% of shots)
Kobe 3PT: 34% (22% of shots)

Pretty much identical from midrange and LeBron slightly better from 3.

LeBron/Shaq would have had absolutely zero problems with spacing and the lowest chance of an ego clash.

Those stats really don't mean anything to me. We have had these threads and there is no way you can convince me LeBron is a better mid range or deep shooter than Kobe. LeBron is an ace off the dribble which is why the majority of the time teams pick there poison by sagging off and forcing him into jumpers - i.e. why he would get a good chunk of open jumpers a game and hit a good chunk of them. Kobe didn't have that lightening first step or behemoth strength off the drive, so teams would check his mid range game and play him up close. You can't just look at those numbers in a vaccum.

Of course Kobe didn't just shoot jumpers all day, but when Shaq is sitting in the paint your top of the key dribble drives are severely limited. Kobe would size his man up and isolate and score in the mid range using his footwork, spins, counters and array of 1 on 1 moves. That is Kobe's bread and butter, that is the type of game playing off a post player like Shaq calls for. That is not LeBron's game. Teams wouldn't have to sag off LeBron for fear of his drive because the pain would already be littered with bodies. LeBron has the smallest ego I agree with you there, but his skillset is the least suited to play with Shaq out of the 3. That's not even debateable. It would work because of their supreme talent but just like LeBron and Wade wasn't a prime fit and struggled against teams with far less talent, LeBron and Shaq would do the same. They would win titles but they wouldn't dominate and trump the competition like their elite talent should do - they wouldn't do things like go 16-1 in the playoffs en route to a title with severe lack of depth behind their 1-2 punch.

D-Leethal
05-17-2015, 01:59 PM
Now LeBron and 1992-1997 Shaq would be killer, but once Shaq started getting fat and lazy that full court pick and roll game would be no more. Thats where the dynamic would take a hit.

Jayb587
05-17-2015, 02:37 PM
this isn't hard. your talking about the 3 greatest wing players to ever play basketball so Id say they all win every chip until shaq falls out his prime. The lakers lost once shaq hit 30+. but if u give kobe, bron, or Jordan 10 prime years with shaq id say all 3 teams win somewhere between 7-10 chips in a 10 year span. id like to see LeBron operate in the triangle, it hasn't been his type of game but phil could help him figure it out. Bron has never had a great coach.

xxplayerxx23
05-17-2015, 02:53 PM
ya, minus the whole passing part.


I hate Kobe as much as the next guy but he's a pretty good passer as well, I think his point was Kobe spaces the floor better which is true with that said I'll still take LBJ/Shaq. Put any scorer with Shaq in the 2000 three peat and I think they do it. KD/Melo/Pierce/TMAC/Vince I think with Shaq all win a couple

GREATNESS ONE
05-17-2015, 02:54 PM
Shaq & Kobe.

Andrew32
05-17-2015, 03:18 PM
No it wasn't, 3 of the Spurs wins were blowouts.

Game 1 was a -5pt loss.
Game 5 was a -2pt loss.

I mean Kobe was actually pretty good in G5 but he wasn't that great in G1.


but when Shaq is sitting in the paint your top of the key dribble drives are severely limited.

Eh? Shaq collapsing defenses near the basket cleared out the lanes and made it easier for perimeter guys to slash and get by their defender without fear of help defense.
I mean Wade himself said that all the attention Shaq drew during the 06 Finals made it easier for him to attack and slash the Maverick defense.

I don't believe that Shaq was an impediment to slashers.


Now LeBron and 1992-1997 Shaq would be killer, but once Shaq started getting fat and lazy that full court pick and roll game would be no more. Thats where the dynamic would take a hit.

Shaq in 1998 was probably in the best shape of his career so it doesn't make sense to make the cut-off 97.
Was also in great shape during 2000.
Had some minor weight issues from 01-03 but his athleticism was still off the charts and his stamina was fine so it really isn't an issue.

04 was the year Shaq started clearly losing some mobility & natural athleticism.
Not saying he wasn't at his Peak athletically in the early 90's but he was still a truly freakish athlete until 04.

kyubi256
05-17-2015, 03:31 PM
Kobe and Shaquille, they proved they could do it and won a good amount. Unlike the speculation of others

flea
05-17-2015, 03:34 PM
Game 1 was a -5pt loss.
Game 5 was a -2pt loss.

I mean Kobe was actually pretty good in G5 but he wasn't that great in G1.

Game 5's final doesn't tell the story, it was an 18 point Spur lead when the 4th started, and a 16 point lead midway through the 4th quarter. SA won that game in the 1st half.

Vinylman
05-17-2015, 03:42 PM
kobe/jordan would have won more than any other combo of the 4

bucketss
05-17-2015, 03:45 PM
kobe/jordan would have won more than any other combo of the 4

too much ego on one team.

effen5
05-17-2015, 04:19 PM
too much ego on one team.

But Phil would coach. He would get those egos in check.

DillyDill
05-17-2015, 04:59 PM
Love everybody points about LBJ driving/passing. But give me MJ/Shaq the best slasher/midrange shooter of Alltime with the Most Dominant infinite ships. Slashing/Driving to the paint players can work extremely well with Shaq, great example 06 Wade unstoppable.

koreancabbage
05-17-2015, 05:08 PM
Jordan Shaq. obviously.

Hangtime
05-17-2015, 05:21 PM
I like the Shaq/Kobe tandem. Probably would have had the best chemistry when they were hungry for titles instead showing each other up. Honestly I think all those guys would have gotten tired of Shaq eventually and all the relationships would have soured at some point. Kobe and Jordan would have had the ego clash with Shaq. And if you thought Kobe criticized Shaq for being Fat and lazy wait till Jordan gets in his face. Lebron would have eventually been concerned for his image and brand being overshadowed by Shaq. I think even Wade and Shaq out grew each other. They all would have argued over who should be the highest paid guy on the team.

I bet you could put any of those guys with Duncan and had the same great success without the clashes.

JordansBulls
05-17-2015, 06:23 PM
We saw Lebron and Shaq in 2010 and they lost with HCA in round 2.

xxplayerxx23
05-17-2015, 06:32 PM
We saw Lebron and Shaq in 2010 and they lost with HCA in round 2.

:laugh: I love you

Jamiecballer
05-17-2015, 07:49 PM
I hate Kobe as much as the next guy but he's a pretty good passer as well, I think his point was Kobe spaces the floor better which is true with that said I'll still take LBJ/Shaq. Put any scorer with Shaq in the 2000 three peat and I think they do it. KD/Melo/Pierce/TMAC/Vince I think with Shaq all win a couple
Of course he's a good passer. But he's 3rd on that list as far as flexible play and sacrifice are concerned and everybody should defer to Shaq

Bruno
05-17-2015, 09:47 PM
LeBron and Shaq would have been perfect.

I think Duncan and Kobe would have been a better pairing that Kobe and Shaq were. pieces fit better together.

Jayb587
05-17-2015, 10:04 PM
I agree. Timmy and Kobe and pop is the best pairing.

Jayb587
05-17-2015, 10:05 PM
Do people forgot "win the ring for the king" haha. Shaq was old but its still funny

slashsnake
05-17-2015, 10:08 PM
We saw Lebron and Shaq in 2010 and they lost with HCA in round 2.

lol nice one. Oh I got one. We saw Jordan try and come back without Phil in Washington and fail to even make the playoffs without him. ;)

Just saying... If you are Shaq, and getting outrebounded by Rondo, and outscored by Kirk Hinrich in playoff series'... you aren't really Shaq anymore.

Jayb587
05-17-2015, 10:14 PM
lol nice one. Oh I got one. We saw Jordan try and come back without Phil in Washington and fail to even make the playoffs without him. ;)

Just saying... If you are Shaq, and getting outrebounded by Rondo, and outscored by Kirk Hinrich in playoff series'... you aren't really Shaq anymore.

He could have still been Shaq but he didn't work hard. I think he was younger than what Duncan is now but that's a topic for another day.

slashsnake
05-17-2015, 11:01 PM
He could have still been Shaq but he didn't work hard. I think he was younger than what Duncan is now but that's a topic for another day.

A year younger but Duncan is one of the best longetivity playing bigs ever in the game.

Shaq never adapted his play to his age (a-la learning a jump shot), and later in his career wasn't in the best of shape (last guy down the floor too). Just because next year your team might get Garnett, or Vince Carter, give Baron Davis a shot, or Antawn Jamison doesn't mean they are getting an elite HOF level, dominating player anymore. Shaq was what? 9 points 6 boards a game in that first round.

Jayb587
05-17-2015, 11:20 PM
A year younger but Duncan is one of the best longetivity playing bigs ever in the game.

Shaq never adapted his play to his age (a-la learning a jump shot), and later in his career wasn't in the best of shape (last guy down the floor too). Just because next year your team might get Garnett, or Vince Carter, give Baron Davis a shot, or Antawn Jamison doesn't mean they are getting an elite HOF level, dominating player anymore. Shaq was what? 9 points 6 boards a game in that first round.

Shaqs best bet would have been to let Kobe lead as he aged. Kobe was an a hole but he was right about shaqs fitness and work ethic Shaq just didn't want to hear it from such a young new guy.

hidalgo
05-18-2015, 06:39 AM
Michael Jordan & Shaquille O'Neal, no question. they'd win 10 or more titles

Hangtime
05-18-2015, 09:22 AM
Jordan would have gotten on Shaq's *** more than Kobe. And Shaq would have told him to **** off. They would have butted heads after 3 or 4 titles. Duncan would win more with all these guys.

Andrew32
05-18-2015, 09:52 AM
Jordan would have gotten on Shaq's *** more than Kobe. And Shaq would have told him to **** off. They would have butted heads after 3 or 4 titles. Duncan would win more with all these guys.

There is a difference between "pushing someone" and antagonizing them/making them a rival because of jealousy, arrogance or ego.
Kobe and Shaq didn't get along because they simply didn't like eachother. Shaq could have worked out harder to make sure his buns were tight every year and Kobe still would have hated him.
I mean even when Shaq was clearly out of shape like in 2003 he was still arguably the best player in the game.
He still posted a 30+ PER in both the reg-season and playoffs that year while outplaying Kobe noticeably in the Spurs series where they got eliminated.
He still averaged 27 / 11 / 3 / 2 on 60%TS and 27 / 15 / 4 / 3bpg on 58%TS in the playoffs.
I mean if you are complaining about having a player of that magnitude and dominance on your team because his tummy isn't muscular enough then you're a pretty stupid person.

I see no reason to think Jordan & Shaq would fight.
They would win almost every year and Jordan would not want to give that up.
Plus Jordan was a very social guy (unlike Kobe) and went to the same college as Shaq.
They were literal friends during their playing days and seemed to get along very well when they interacted.
I see no reason they wouldn't develop a friendship.
Shaq was a very likeable guy and he got along well with most of the guys he played with.

I don't wanna put down Kobe but he has a somewhat abrasive personality and he isn't easy to please.
Saying Shaq wouldn't get along with others just because he didn't get along with Kobe's extremely unique personality is not fair I think.
Kobe was basically the only player Shaq beefed with during his Prime years (93-06).
While Jordan & Kobe may share some personality traits they are still extremely different in that regard.


Shaqs best bet would have been to let Kobe lead as he aged. Kobe was an a hole but he was right about shaqs fitness and work ethic Shaq just didn't want to hear it from such a young new guy.

Kobe was wrong to criticize him in public. I remember when he did so in 2004.
I mean Shaq had basically just carried the Lakers to a 3peat (or was the driving force behind it) and then clearly outplayed Kobe in the playoffs as they lost in 2003.
Knowing that what exactly gave Kobe the nerve or the right to criticize his fitness or leadership ability?
I mean had he done it behind closed doors then I probably wouldn't have had a problem with it but he chose a different route.
Keep in mind I don't want to act like Shaq was completely innocent. He made his own albeit less harsh remarks to the media which he is also at fault for along with a few other things. He certainly could have handled that whole situation much better himself.
Still big time players like Kobe or Shaq pretty much write their own ticket.
Perhaps it doesn't matter who was at fault and we can simply say they weren't compatible personality wise and were thus destined to breakup eventually.
Plus the fact that management & Phil did a poor job handling the situation and also the rape trial which happened only fanned the flames and made any chance of them fixing things long-term unlikely.

Anyway all that aside I think Kobe should have waited until 06 when Shaq was no longer better then him before he tried to take over (though in a normal co-star relationship there would not be such an importance placed on whos team it is).
There was no reason for him to try and take over before then. Besides simply being the inferior player he was also not respecting rank.
Shaq was the better player, the driving force behind the 3peat and the star in LAL before Kobe was anything worth mentioning.
You have to respect the hierarchy unless its clearly wrong to do so. You don't just take over because your ego is huge and you think you should be able to tell everyone how things are gonna be done.
I am sure in his mind the fact that he worked harder in the gym was a good enough excuse for him. In reality though that makes no sense.

Chronz
05-18-2015, 10:17 AM
Haha @ the camp suggesting that Shaq doesn't open up the game for slasher and shooters alike

Tony_Starks
05-18-2015, 11:09 AM
Lebron and Shaq wouldn't have been that effective because Lebron doesn't have the range of MJ and damn sure not of Kobe. When his man sags off and just gives him the J like they always do that would just be a extra defender in Shaqs lap. MJ would have never took a backseat to Shaq and would've demanded they trade him when he started his lazy use the season as his personal training camp shenanigans.

The Kobe/ Shaq combo can never be duplicated or improved on. He had the perfect range, lock down wing D, and unstoppable one-on-one game to compliment Shaq.

Andrew32
05-18-2015, 11:40 AM
Lebron and Shaq wouldn't have been that effective because Lebron doesn't have the range of MJ and damn sure not of Kobe.


I agree about Kobe being the better shooter especially from the true mid-range area but what about Shaq & Wade?
They fit eachother like a glove and were very successful on the court.
Had Wade not gotten injured in the 05 ECF he would have made the Finals twice with an old Shaq.

Well to be fair Wade had a pretty good mid-range game also.
His mid-range game in the 06 playoffs especially was VERY impressive.
Playoff stats are in the bubble (---)

10-16 feet
02 Kobe = 45% (41%)
06 Wade = 37% (42%)
06 Bron = 30% (32%)

16-3pt
02 Kobe = 39% (35%)
06 Wade = 40% (45%)
06 Bron = 40% (27%)

Percentage of shots taken from 10ft-3pt
02 Kobe = .527% (.423%)
06 Wade = .420% (.486%)
06 Bron = .347% (.342%)

MrfadeawayJB
05-18-2015, 11:45 AM
I'd say Kobe. Who knows how many more they could have won of they got along better.

Vinylman
05-18-2015, 11:58 AM
too much ego on one team.

nope... kobe and Jordan would have been soulmates. Jordan respects very few guys games ... at the top of his list was kobe

Big Zo
05-18-2015, 12:00 PM
None. Mike James would keep them all ringless.

FlashBolt
05-18-2015, 02:32 PM
Lebron and Shaq wouldn't have been that effective because Lebron doesn't have the range of MJ and damn sure not of Kobe. When his man sags off and just gives him the J like they always do that would just be a extra defender in Shaqs lap. MJ would have never took a backseat to Shaq and would've demanded they trade him when he started his lazy use the season as his personal training camp shenanigans.

The Kobe/ Shaq combo can never be duplicated or improved on. He had the perfect range, lock down wing D, and unstoppable one-on-one game to compliment Shaq.

Prime LeBron+Shaq would have won more than three rings.. Idk what you're smoking. Especially since Kobe was rather an infant in his earlier career whereas James was already a stud top ten player.

Bostonjorge
05-18-2015, 02:49 PM
Shaqs best bet would have been to let Kobe lead as he aged. Kobe was an a hole but he was right about shaqs fitness and work ethic Shaq just didn't want to hear it from such a young new guy.

Yup exactly. Shaq and Kobe won 3. Kobe and Shaq would of won 3 more. What could of been. Should of been.

RaiderLakersA's
05-18-2015, 03:22 PM
Imagine Shaq getting the ball as much as he wanted....

I always imagine Hack-A Shaq when someone brings that up. Or that Shaq "heals only on company time" and as a consequence, spent quite a bit of time injured, or trying to get his big backside in shape during the season, but demanding the lion's share of the touches. Kobe survived that, but he had to suppress his game. Even still, he almost got 4 rings out of it.

There is no way Jordan would have put up with that b/s. Not for more than a season. Not only having Shaq tell him that he was second fiddle, but having Phil Jackson and Tex reinforce that year in and year out. No, Jordan and Shaq wouldn't work.

LBJ+Shaq might work. We have some proof of that when we see an over-the-hill Karl Malone and Shaq on the floor at the same time. That said, LBJ is not the perimeter shooter that Karl Malone was. He also isn't the post-up player that Karl was in his prime. They would still need a 2 guard or a PG that could create...because like I said, there would be a number of games when Shaq either wasn't there, or he was getting hacked.

Larry Bird and Shaq. Now that is a combo that could have won more titles than everyone mentioned.

Tony_Starks
05-18-2015, 04:35 PM
Imagine Shaq getting the ball as much as he wanted....

I always imagine Hack-A Shaq when someone brings that up. Or that Shaq "heals only on company time" and as a consequence, spent quite a bit of time injured, or trying to get his big backside in shape during the season, but demanding the lion's share of the touches. Kobe survived that, but he had to suppress his game. Even still, he almost got 4 rings out of it.

There is no way Jordan would have put up with that b/s. Not for more than a season. Not only having Shaq tell him that he was second fiddle, but having Phil Jackson and Tex reinforce that year in and year out. No, Jordan and Shaq wouldn't work.

LBJ+Shaq might work. We have some proof of that when we see an over-the-hill Karl Malone and Shaq on the floor at the same time. That said, LBJ is not the perimeter shooter that Karl Malone was. He also isn't the post-up player that Karl was in his prime. They would still need a 2 guard or a PG that could create...because like I said, there would be a number of games when Shaq either wasn't there, or he was getting hacked.

Larry Bird and Shaq. Now that is a combo that could have won more titles than everyone mentioned.


True

ewing
05-18-2015, 04:38 PM
i don't any of these tandoms beat other NBA players 2 on 5

DillyDill
05-19-2015, 02:54 AM
Can somebody tell me why Miami traded Shaq? I thought he was still dominate

naps
05-19-2015, 03:28 AM
Jordan-Shaq
LeBron-Shaq













Kobe-Shaq



I would take Wade-Shaq over Kobe-Shaq. A second year Wade with a past prime Shaq almost went to NBA finals in their first year together in 2005 (Miami was up in that series against Pistons and then Wade injury happened). They won the championship next year which was their second year together. Pretty incredible stuff. Now imagine both of them playing together in their primes for 8 years.

Master Mind
05-19-2015, 03:47 AM
Kobe/Shaq, because quite frankly we've seen how dominate they were together. Wade should be in this bunch as well

Andrew32
05-19-2015, 04:01 AM
I always imagine Hack-A Shaq when someone brings that up.

You mean that strategy that was rarely used against Shaq and was even more rarely effective?


Or that Shaq "heals only on company time"

Please. Shaq missed 12 games to start the 2003 season. Considering the fact that he had just carried LAL to a 3peat I think he earned the rest.


and as a consequence, spent quite a bit of time injured, or trying to get his big backside in shape during the season, but demanding the lion's share of the touches.

Bull.
Shaq was one of the least ball dominant GOAT's and was very lenient when it came to allowing his perimeter guys to dominate & shoot the ball.

Yes Shaq wanted his touches and wanted to remain involved in the offense consistently but that doesn't mean he was selfish.
I mean what player would be stupid or selfish enough not to keep an offensive force like Prime Shaq consistently involved in their teams offense?

Far as "demanding touches" go's he allowed Kobe to lead the team in FGA every year after 2000.
Guess that is demanding the lions share huh?


Kobe survived that, but he had to suppress his game.

Nonsense.
Kobe sacrificed nothing individually.
Shaq gave him the freedom to play like a 1st option while not having to face the defensive attention a normal 1st option would see.

FGA / FTA (Kobe Bryant) (Playoffs)
------------------
01 - 02 = 22.5 / 8.5
08 - 10 = 22.4 / 8.6

Shaq enhanced his numbers not visa-versa.