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View Full Version : All-Time Redraft Quarterfinals: (2) Azkaban vs (7) Amherst



Shammyguy3
05-15-2015, 07:36 PM
Each year PSD users on the forum partake in a fantasy snake-draft consisting of all-time players. Players are designated for certain eras based on their peak, and we've used a general 5 year prime to try and rank players overall value (so try and vote based on that 5-year peak as best you can). After the draft, opposing conferences voted for playoff ranking. So, given the two rosters below, if they were to face in real life (with every player in their 5-year prime), which team would win in the 7-game series?

2. Azkaban (Home-Court Advantage)
PG: Chris Paul - Gilbert Arenas
SG: Michael Cooper - Tony Allen
SF: George Gervin - Tayshaun Prince
PF: Dennis Rodman - Serge Ibaka
C: David Robinson - Jeff Ruland

7. Amherst
PG: Gary Payton | Andre Miller
SG: Jeff Hornacek | Sam Jones
SF: Larry Bird | Paul George
PF: Shawn Kemp | Carlos Boozer
C: Mark Eaton | Arvydas Sabonis


Below are write-ups sent in by the GMs of the teams giving their reasons for why their team should win this matchup:

Amherst did not send in a Write-Up

Azkaban's Writeup


PG: Chris Paul vs Gary Payton
Chris Paul is an elite scorer, passer, and defender where his defensive metrics paint him as one of the elite defensive point guards in this era of the NBA where point guards reign supreme and the pick & roll dominates the floor. Chris Paul is far more difficult to defend than Payton is on the offensive end thanks to CP3's shooting (37.5% from deep since making his first all-star team in 2009, while taking 3.1 a game) He picks and chooses his spots, and he has torn up elite defenses in today's NBA where rotations are slick, the pick & roll defense is much improved than in the 90s, etc. To me, this is a clear edge to Chris Paul, who has lead the playoffs in PER three times, lead the playoffs in assist rate four times, lead the playoffs in Win Shares per 48 three times (including this season), and has posted a 58.2ts% and 119 ORtg for his career. Gary Payton has never lead the playoffs in any statistical category, even in his prime like Paul has.
Chris Paul has come in the MVP voting 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th in his career so far (Payton's only reached 3rd once, the rest no higher than 6th).

Let's compare their 3-year prime runs in the playoffs
Payton: 55.2ts% 20.2 PER 0.156 WS/48 31.7ast% 115 ORtg
Paul: 59.1ts% 24.8 PER 0.183 WS/48 40.9ast% 116 ORtg

When it comes to these all-time greats, you have to split hairs. Both are elite in terms of the history of the league, but CP3's a superior offensive player in efficiency, scoring, and passing. While Payton's superior defensively, he's also easier for Paul to guard since he isn't as much of a threat from the perimeter, and Paul could play off of him and slow down the pick & roll game with Dennis Rodman (as if Rodman needs help defending anyway). Chris Paul wins this matchup.

The Wings: Michael Cooper/George Gervin vs Jeff Hornacek/Larry Bird
This is straight-forward: Bird was amazing. He was unbelievable all-around. I'll give him that. But, I have perhaps the greatest perimeter defender of all time in Michael Cooper (8 straight All-defensive teams, 5 of them first team and a defensive player of the year award) to put on him. Who does he have to guard George Gervin? If he wants Hornacek to guard IceMan to rest Bird, that's a nightmare. If he wants Bird to guard him, he'll lose energy on the offensive side of the ball. Gervin lead the league in scoring 4 out of 5 years while posting a 113 ORtg 57.7ts% 23.8 PER 0.185 WS/48 on a 31.7usg% but only turning it over 11.2% of the time.

In the meantime, I can hide Gervin on Hornacek and give him time off. Even though Amherst has the best player in this matchup, they at best can break even, and that's not saying much considering the defensive bigs I have to protect the paint as well.

The Bigs: Dennis Rodman/Davis Robinson vs Shawn Kemp/Mark Eaton
This is clearly an eyesore. I have not only Michael Cooper, a DPOY on the perimeter, I have a x2 DPOY in Rodman guarding the pick and roll with Chris Paul, and then David Robinson who ALSO won DPOY protecting the paint and not having to worry about a high usage post player. That's before factoring how much of a monster the Admiral was in his prime offensively: he not only lead the league in DRtg back to back years in '98/99 but he ALSO lead the league in Win Shares/48 minutes. His per game numbers from 93-96 of 26.4/11.3/3.6 are matched by his advanced metrics of 118 ORtg, 58.4ts% 28.3 PER, 0.264 WS/48, 16.3ast% 11.1tov%, and 5.7blk% with a 2.1stl%.



Honestly - how can Amherst defend against the efficiency of Chris Paul, George Gervin, and David Robinson? Cooper/Rodman aren't offensive players, but they have offensive skillsets that make this offense click: for example, Michael Cooper has shot from 3 point land: 38.7% on 2.0 attempts, 38.5% on 2.5 attempts, and 38.1% on 2.6 attempts during a stretch in his career. That's respectable spacing opening up the pick & roll game with CP3/Robinson, the drive & kick game with Gervin/Paul, and the post-up game forcing the ball to swing to the weak side for an open shot by either CP3/Cooper. Then, we have Dennis Rodman who has lead the LEAGUE in Offensive Rebounding Rate 7 times!!! in his career. So even when my highly efficient offense misses, there's no chance for Amherst to take advantage on the boards.


Between my team and his, it would be entertaining but would only last 6 games. We're talking about two really good teams defensively, but one is simply better in Azkaban. We're talking about two good teams offensively, but one is simply more efficient all-around being lead by a superior floor general in CP3 and can hurt you on the boards, the pick & roll, and from deep.

Lakers + Giants
05-15-2015, 09:38 PM
Azkaban's defense is just waayyyyy too nasty. (you're welcome Sham ;) )

Azkaban in 4, maybe 5.

KnicksorBust
05-15-2015, 09:41 PM
Should have started Sabonis. He owns drob. https://youtu.be/PWAD7jwoqG4

xnick5757
05-15-2015, 10:46 PM
^^ haha. I love Sabonis too.

Eaton and Sabonis would be sharing equal minutes in this. I like the matchup of Payton on CP, too


plus... Larry Bird! :D


Payton + Kemp almost beat Jordan

xnick5757
05-15-2015, 10:52 PM
And one other major point.

I know Azkaban has great D, but that starting rotation is basically playing 3 on 5 on offense. Cooper only put up over 10 PPG twice in his career, and Rodman only did it once.

Starting two players that are really defensive specialists is asking for trouble, imo.


And on top of that, I have the best defensive point guard of all time on Paul. So their offense would have to run through DRob and Iceman. DRob would be guarded by Eaton/Sabonis, and Eaton was a 2 time DPOY. Kemp could also provide help since he is on Rodman, who isn't a real threat offensively.


I feel like Azkaban's focus on defense would really hurt them here. My team has a ton of offense (Payton/Hornacek/Bird/Kemp all at one point averaged over 20 PPG) but also played pretty good defense.

Shammyguy3
05-15-2015, 11:33 PM
And one other major point.

I know Azkaban has great D, but that starting rotation is basically playing 3 on 5 on offense. Cooper only put up over 10 PPG twice in his career, and Rodman only did it once.

Starting two players that are really defensive specialists is asking for trouble, imo.


And on top of that, I have the best defensive point guard of all time on Paul. So their offense would have to run through DRob and Iceman. DRob would be guarded by Eaton/Sabonis, and Eaton was a 2 time DPOY. Kemp could also provide help since he is on Rodman, who isn't a real threat offensively.


I feel like Azkaban's focus on defense would really hurt them here. My team has a ton of offense (Payton/Hornacek/Bird/Kemp all at one point averaged over 20 PPG) but also played pretty good defense.


I already acknowledged those two guys: Cooper's a reliable 3 point shooter that spaces the floor well enough for my big guns. Rodman/Robinson would clean up the glass so easily against your team, I'd easily get 20 second-chance points.

Also - Tayshaun Prince in 2004 when the Pistons won only scored 10.4ppg. In the playoffs he scored only 9.9 points per game. And pardon me, but your offense is not that of the 2004 Lakers, and my defense is even better than that 04 Pistons team. Furthermore, Ben Wallace only averaged 9.5 points a game in the regular season and then only 10.3 in the playoffs.


It's really simple: I have perhaps the best perimeter defender in the series guarding your best player, i have arguably the best defender at his position ever in Rodman guarding your second best offensive player, and then I have Chris Paul and David Robinson.

You have a decent offense, but in an all-time sense it's really not that good. And that's before going up against my defense. Could you imagine the fast-break opportunities my defense would provide? Then let's talk about the 2nd-chance opportunities I'd have from my rebounding, again.



So no, my defense would not hurt me. It would help me, and really really hurt you. Your offense is not that efficient to begin with outside of Larry Bird. If you're splitting minutes at center, you are losing a lot of offense half the time (which makes it even tougher to score on my teams' defense, which is by far the best in the game) and then the other half you're losing a lot of defense (which makes it even easier for my 3 far superior offensive trio to score on your defense

Shammyguy3
05-16-2015, 03:07 PM
bump

KnicksorBust
05-16-2015, 09:26 PM
There are certain players that I feel are challenging to build around in an all-time redraft. George Gervin is one of them. This is probably the most well-constructed team to fit his strengths that I have seen. His lackluster defense is protected by 4 elite defenders and he plays in a line-up with unselfish teammates where he can drop 30ppg easily.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2015, 11:51 PM
There are certain players that I feel are challenging to build around in an all-time redraft. George Gervin is one of them. This is probably the most well-constructed team to fit his strengths that I have seen. His lackluster defense is protected by 4 elite defenders and he plays in a line-up with unselfish teammates where he can drop 30ppg easily.

I'm 2/2 on those then, remember my Russell team from last year? :)

IKnowHoops
05-17-2015, 02:03 AM
I'm going to go with Prime CP3 with Prime Drob. Thats going to be murder. Seeing how much Tyson Chandler and Deandre have benefited from CP3, David would just be unstoppable. David was unstoppable as it was, but with CP3 it would just be stupid. I don't see anything stopping them together. David was more athletic than Deandre, much, much faster, much better ball skills. They would just dominate on a level never before seen IMO.

mightybosstone
05-17-2015, 10:42 AM
I voted Azkaban, but just barely. I know other people see this as a one-sided victory, but it took me several days to really think about this. For one, I think Azkaban could be making a pretty sizable mistake by going 3 on 5 offensively. Yeah, Rodman can pound the offensive glass and Cooper isn't completely useless on the perimeter, but that's pretty much the only plusses you're getting from them on that end of the floor.

Also, Bird is getting like no love in this series, and I don't buy for a second that a 6-5 SG is going to limit Bird that much offensively. And anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to look up Bird's head-to-head numbers against Cooper's Showtime Lakers. I can't remember what they were, but I believe it was something like 25/11/5 in the postseason. And Payton and Kemp playing together again should account for something, especially since that team pushed MJ's Bulls to 6 games in the finals. No easy feat.

But ultimately I think Azkaban's defense is just too much for this team and Bird might have to do too much for them to win. I also like their edge on the glass against Kemp/Eaton as Eaton, for as good as he was on defense, was not a great rebounding center. And you just can't give second chances to a team with such hyper efficient offensive players as Paul and Robinson. Also, with Robinson's mid-range game potentially pulling Eaton out on the perimeter, how is Kemp expected to defend against the penetration of Paul and Gervin in those instances? He can't.

Like almost every other series in this first round, I think this one would probably go 6 or 7 games, but Azkaban's stifling defense would ultimately win out.

Shammyguy3
05-17-2015, 05:37 PM
In the Finals versus the Lakers, for his career, Bird averaged 25.3ppg 11.1rpg 4.6apg playing 42.1 mpg. Per36 numbers would be 21.6ppg 9.5rpg 3.9apg. His advanced numbers were

59.5ts% 50.0efg% in 1984
only 52.7ts% 46.2efg% in 1985
and only 53.4ts% 46.2efg% in 1987 (also in 87 he posted a 111 ORtg, not available for other years)

Really, Bird is a great player obviously. But he wasn't particularly historic in his matchups versus the Showtime Lakers in the Finals, and that Lakers defense was NOWHERE near as good as the defense Azkaban has. He also does not have as good of a 2nd option offensively, nor anywhere near as efficient (really, Kemp is no comparison to McHale).


So this series would not be as close as you suggest

xnick5757
05-17-2015, 07:20 PM
CP3s a choker thou

:laugh:

NYKalltheway
05-17-2015, 08:16 PM
I'm going for the "upset" here. I like the Azkaban players individually, but they don't seem to mesh well. I don't see anyone stopping Bird or Kemp when they turn on the lights as their man-to-man matchups seem to be uncorrelated.
Amherst can score in any way possible while the Azkaban team will have to rely on David Robinson(who will get his fair share) and George Gervin but Chris Paul will be neutralized by Payton which has to be highlighted.

I kinda like Azkaban's defense, but they seem too overrated (a pile of names that were good defensively for various reasons) in that respect. I can't see them stopping Amherst from scoring more than them, for more than 3 games.

Shammyguy3
05-17-2015, 10:00 PM
CP3s a choker thou

:laugh:
this is clearly not true :laugh2: tonight he had 26/10/5 with 4 steals, while getting zero help from his other guards


I'm going for the "upset" here. I like the Azkaban players individually, but they don't seem to mesh well. I don't see anyone stopping Bird or Kemp when they turn on the lights as their man-to-man matchups seem to be uncorrelated.
Amherst can score in any way possible while the Azkaban team will have to rely on David Robinson(who will get his fair share) and George Gervin but Chris Paul will be neutralized by Payton which has to be highlighted.

I kinda like Azkaban's defense, but they seem too overrated (a pile of names that were good defensively for various reasons) in that respect. I can't see them stopping Amherst from scoring more than them, for more than 3 games.

How do they not mesh well?

I already showed Birds' THREE Finals appearances versus the Showtime Lakers versus Michael Cooper, and that defense was nowhere near as good as my defense and he doesn't have the offensive help he did with those classic Celtics teams either.

And if Payton is neutralized by Paul, then Payton is easily neutralized as well.

And the bolded is just ridiculous :laugh: x 100

How is having what, 6 DPOYs, constant all-nba defenders at prime positions overrated? And no, they weren't just good defensively for "reasons" - they were GREAT defensively for a **** ton of reasons.

valade16
05-18-2015, 08:53 AM
I do think Azkaban's offensive deficiency of Cooper/Rodman will be problematic for them, but not this round. I think they win it.

xnick5757
05-18-2015, 11:27 AM
I feel like people are underrated Payton & Kemp a bit. Both were great two way players that gave that Bulls team in 96 some real problems.

In the 6 games of that series, Kemp outscored Jordan twice, and finished with the same amount of points once.

And Bird continues to get no love :(

there was also this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWAD7jwoqG4

:)



But anyways, good luck to Shammy in the next round:cheers:

The_Jamal
05-18-2015, 01:41 PM
Azkaban, but Shammy messed up by ruining CP3-KAJ combo with a great supporting cast around them.

Shammyguy3
05-18-2015, 02:04 PM
Azkaban, but Shammy messed up by ruining CP3-KAJ combo with a great supporting cast around them.

I had the worst wing defense in the league, would have definitely been exposed at some point

Shammyguy3
05-18-2015, 06:04 PM
about 90 minutes left to vote!

MFFL==FML
05-18-2015, 07:21 PM
I can't vote on this app. Please count my vote for Azkaban please.

Shammyguy3
05-18-2015, 08:26 PM
Azkaban advances