PDA

View Full Version : Whats the greater outcome for Wade's legacy??



Chronz
05-07-2015, 03:03 PM
Lets say that in 2011, the Heat win the Chip with Wade hoisting F.MVP. Thats obviously a HUGE legacy altering addition to his resume, but what if we also say that he doesn't win the following 2 seasons.

Which is the better outcome, Wade being a 3x Champ or Wade being a 2x FMVP ?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 03:12 PM
2 time finals MVP. He doesn't get much credit for the back to back ships. It was unfortunate Lebron choked that series away.

Bostonjorge
05-07-2015, 03:24 PM
Basketball fans would see him in higher regards then we already see him in. His stats and impact in 2011 season, playoffs and finals where amazing. If Wade could of won and also got his final MVP then 2011 would of been remembered as wades year not dirks year.

James fans will discredit him no matter what. It's just sad they only want to see Wade as a bum and forget what Wade did in 2011 and 2012. Only James fans saw Wade playing awful in 2013 against the Spurs. Even tho Wade out scored every player on the Spurs roster.

Hawkeye15
05-07-2015, 03:26 PM
2 MVP's.

mngopher35
05-07-2015, 03:27 PM
In general the individual awards like MVP and fmvp are most important to a players legacy and best indicators of all time greats (imo). So I think winning the finals mvp would have been best outcome for his legacy. He really wasn't himself the following post seasons and it was pretty obvious (still solid but not close to prime dwade). His level of play during the 2011 post season was different since him and Lebron were basically switching off series of taking over, about the same level of play. So not only is the award in general better but his level of play that season was as well which is the most important to me.

With all of that said I also don't hold losing to the mavs against him because Lebron was the guy who was supposed to step up and he didn't.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 03:28 PM
Basketball fans would see him in higher regards then we already see him in. His stats and impact in 2011 season, playoffs and finals where amazing. If Wade could of won and also got his final MVP then 2011 would of been remembered as wades year not dirks year.

James fans will discredit him no matter what. It's just sad they only want to see Wade as a bum and forget what Wade did in 2011 and 2012. Only James fans saw Wade playing awful in 2013 against the Spurs. Even tho Wade out scored every player on the Spurs roster.

Great points

Tony_Starks
05-07-2015, 03:29 PM
By basketball fans or Lebron fans?

KnicksorBust
05-07-2015, 03:46 PM
3 rings. He was seen as instrumental to both Lebron Heat rings.

naps
05-07-2015, 03:52 PM
Obviously 2 finals MVPs. People seem to give him absolutely no credit for the 2 back to back championships they won. Having 2 championships and 2 finals MVP would make him an automatic choice for top 12-15 all-time in most people's eyes. Thanks LeBron for destroying his legacy by disappearing against the mavs. Wade had been stellar throughout that post-season.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 03:52 PM
3 rings. He was seen as instrumental to both Lebron Heat rings. By who? Wade has been trashed on since 2011.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 03:58 PM
I dont know whats the correct answer but its good to know you guys can value a player with less rings in higher regard than the same player with more rings.

LOL at everyone mentioning Bron tho. They lost because they were starting the corpse of Bibby and playing guys like Dampier. Bron struggled, yes, but when the roles were reversed, Bron brought the trophy home despite Wade's struggles vs SA.

mngopher35
05-07-2015, 03:59 PM
By who? Wade has been trashed on since 2011.

Saying he was no longer prime wade isn't getting trashed on, it's just adding context. He clearly had taken a slight step back with his injuries by 2012 playoffs and in 2013 his play dropped a little bit more. He is still considered to be the 2nd best player on that championship team who stepped up multiple times when needed.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 04:01 PM
I dont know whats the correct answer but its good to know you guys can value a player with less rings in higher regard than the same player with more rings.

LOL at everyone mentioning Bron tho. They lost because they were starting the corpse of Bibby and playing guys like Dampier. Bron struggled, yes, but when the roles were reversed, Bron brought the trophy home despite Wade's struggles vs SA.

Sorry FC, but if Lebron didn't get wrecked by terry and played somewhat decent they would have beat the Mavs.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 04:02 PM
By who? Wade has been trashed on since 2011.

Saying he was no longer prime wade isn't getting trashed on, it's just adding context. He clearly had taken a slight step back with his injuries by 2012 playoffs and in 2013 his play dropped a little bit more. He is still considered to be the 2nd best player on that championship team who stepped up multiple times when needed.

Come on bro we all know the things that were said about him after 2011. Sure he was the second best player but a lot of things that were said about him were unfair.

TylerSL
05-07-2015, 04:08 PM
Contrary to what anyone says, without Wade we would have never won a title in the Lebron James era so to be honest it's close because Wade has been an integral part of Miami winning all of their championships. However I voted 2 rings and 2 Finals MVP awards because 2 Finals MVP awards would really elevate him. His 2006 Finals was probably the greatest Finals performance of all time and had Miami won in 2011, his 2011 Finals Performance probably would have been Top 5ish.

I know this goes against the scenario you were mentioning, but say Miami still beat OKC in 2012 but lost to the Spurs in the Finals of both 2013 and 2014 before Lebron left that would leave Wade 3 rings and 2 Finals MVP awards as well. I find that scenario more likely (basically trading the 2013 title for the 2011 title). If Miami had won in 2011, because of Wade's performances in the '06 and '11 Finals as well as being All NBA player and all star year in and year out he would probably easily go down as a top 15-20 player ever.

In reality however, I currently see Wade as a top 40 player ever and I believe he will probably end up being around top 25 all time by the time he is done. Being a 3x champion with 1 Finals MVP, as well as being an 11x All Star, and an 8x All-NBA player puts him above many. That means he wasn't just on a team that won titles, he was an outstanding player year in and year out. He may deal with injuries and what not, but he is one of the greats.

mngopher35
05-07-2015, 04:08 PM
Come on bro we all know the things that were said about him after 2011. Sure he was the second best player but a lot of things that were said about him were unfair.

A couple people might have gone too far, that basically always happens. There were a few who called it the "most stacked team ever" which is just as bad the opposite way.

In general though most realize that wade was a solid 2nd option even if he wasn't quite the same.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 04:16 PM
Come on bro we all know the things that were said about him after 2011. Sure he was the second best player but a lot of things that were said about him were unfair.

A couple people might have gone too far, that basically always happens. There were a few who called it the "most stacked team ever" which is just as bad the opposite way.

In general though most realize that wade was a solid 2nd option even if he wasn't quite the same.

It was much more than just a few, and the heat were definitely one of the most stacked teams In History. Being in the weakest conference in league history never hurt either.

mngopher35
05-07-2015, 04:22 PM
It was much more than just a few, and the heat were definitely one of the most stacked teams In History. Being in the weakest conference in league history never hurt either.

lol, alright we will just agree to disagree. Most people do realize that Wade was a good player even if a couple try too hard to diminish him.

beasted86
05-07-2015, 04:38 PM
I dont know whats the correct answer but its good to know you guys can value a player with less rings in higher regard than the same player with more rings.

LOL at everyone mentioning Bron tho. They lost because they were starting the corpse of Bibby and playing guys like Dampier. Bron struggled, yes, but when the roles were reversed, Bron brought the trophy home despite Wade's struggles vs SA.

I know you've admitted to posting drunk in the past... I wonder if this post is a result of one of your lunch time benders?

If we are using the regular season stats as par for expectations in the post season... What struggles exactly did Wade have when the HEAT beat the Spurs in 2013? He averaged 20/4/5 on 48% and exceeded his defensive stats from the regular season where he averaged 21/5/5 on 52%. I would say he met expectations in the 2013 Finals.

Even if you somehow made a mistake and were instead thinking about his 2014 Finals when they lost... yes, he under-performed. His regular season numbers were 19/5/5 on 54% and nose dived to 15/4/3 on 44%. But even this pales in comparison to the fall of from LeBron in 2011.

This was a guy averaging 27/8/7 in the regular season. That's his baseline, that's his par for expectations.... he then dropped to 18/7/7 on 48%.

Just so I can double check my own logic against yours, I'll leave this question for you to answer when you are sober. Which is a worse and reasonable fall off: -4 PPG while suffering from knee problems, or -9 PPG while suffering from fear?

PowerHouse
05-07-2015, 04:39 PM
So what we are looking at is 2 rings/2 fmvps vs 3 rings/1 fmvp.

I have to give the edge to 3/1 IMO.

L8kers4life
05-07-2015, 04:43 PM
I dont know whats the correct answer but its good to know you guys can value a player with less rings in higher regard than the same player with more rings.

LOL at everyone mentioning Bron tho. They lost because they were starting the corpse of Bibby and playing guys like Dampier. Bron struggled, yes, but when the roles were reversed, Bron brought the trophy home despite Wade's struggles vs SA.


Not quit sure I understand your point in the opening question, I would say what he has now with 3 rings and 1 fmvp is better than both the scenarios you presented. Is it not?

Redrum187
05-07-2015, 05:01 PM
It's probably a lateral comparison honestly.

Wade fans are quick to thank LeBron for not showing up in the 11' finals but give Wade a pass for his no shows (not to mention the refs handing the Heat the championship in 06').

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2015, 05:05 PM
I dont know whats the correct answer but its good to know you guys can value a player with less rings in higher regard than the same player with more rings.

LOL at everyone mentioning Bron tho. They lost because they were starting the corpse of Bibby and playing guys like Dampier. Bron struggled, yes, but when the roles were reversed, Bron brought the trophy home despite Wade's struggles vs SA.

I know you've admitted to posting drunk in the past... I wonder if this post is a result of one of your lunch time benders?

If we are using the regular season stats as par for expectations in the post season... What struggles exactly did Wade have when the HEAT beat the Spurs in 2013? He averaged 20/4/5 on 48% and exceeded his defensive stats from the regular season where he averaged 21/5/5 on 52%. I would say he met expectations in the 2013 Finals.

Even if you somehow made a mistake and were instead thinking about his 2014 Finals when they lost... yes, he under-performed. His regular season numbers were 19/5/5 on 54% and nose dived to 15/4/3 on 44%. But even this pales in comparison to the fall of from LeBron in 2011.

This was a guy averaging 27/8/7 in the regular season. That's his baseline, that's his par for expectations.... he then dropped to 18/7/7 on 48%.

Just so I can double check my own logic against yours, I'll leave this question for you to answer when you are sober. Which is a worse and reasonable fall off: -4 PPG while suffering from knee problems, or -9 PPG while suffering from fear?

Owned

Chronz
05-07-2015, 07:31 PM
Sorry FC, but if Lebron didn't get wrecked by terry and played somewhat decent they would have beat the Mavs.

Not buying it. No team ever loses because of the play of 1 man, it really is that much of a team game. Bron let them down, doesn't mean its all on him. I've seen players play worse in victory.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 07:39 PM
I know this goes against the scenario you were mentioning, but say Miami still beat OKC in 2012 but lost to the Spurs in the Finals of both 2013 and 2014 before Lebron left that would leave Wade 3 rings and 2 Finals MVP awards as well. I find that scenario more likely (basically trading the 2013 title for the 2011 title). If Miami had won in 2011, because of Wade's performances in the '06 and '11 Finals as well as being All NBA player and all star year in and year out he would probably easily go down as a top 15-20 player ever.


Dude, that kind of resume puts him potentially on par with Bron IMO, if not right behind. Im starting to think its really unfair to diminish Wade's stature for not winning that year, guy played inspired those Finals. Funny how 2 wins changes so much.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 07:40 PM
lol, alright we will just agree to disagree. Most people do realize that Wade was a good player even if a couple try too hard to diminish him.

lol indeed. Vendetta is obvious with that one

Chronz
05-07-2015, 08:10 PM
I know you've admitted to posting drunk in the past... I wonder if this post is a result of one of your lunch time benders?
That was yesterday.


If we are using the regular season stats as par for expectations in the post season... What struggles exactly did Wade have when the HEAT beat the Spurs in 2013? He averaged 20/4/5 on 48% and exceeded his defensive stats from the regular season where he averaged 21/5/5 on 52%. I would say he met expectations in the 2013 Finals.
I dunno about that one, might depend on what defensive stats you're talking about. But you're prolly right that Bron played worse, didn't realize his stats were so decent, still below league average efficiency.

They faced an elite 2-way team so his dropoff is understandable but I dont see any uptick in his defensive metrics. His efficiency fell off a cliff, fg% understates the dropoff because of how rudimentary of a barometer it is, when it comes to winning games, possession efficiency is what matters. A guy who doesn't really space the floor for his teammates ( partly why Bron often played better with him on the bench that series) and wasn't getting to the line at his ordinary rates, needs to shoot MUCH better than 47%. He was actually below league average for the series in terms of raw efficiency. He had a HUGE G4 but that was about it.

Statistics aside, I didn't like his defensive effort nor how he was playing off his teammates, it took him FOREVER to realize he had to defend Danny Green. At least Bron was given credit by Jet for locking him up to start the series. I really feel like Bron carried the much bigger load all playoffs.


Even if you somehow made a mistake and were instead thinking about his 2014 Finals when they lost... yes, he under-performed. His regular season numbers were 19/5/5 on 54% and nose dived to 15/4/3 on 44%. But even this pales in comparison to the fall of from LeBron in 2011.

This was a guy averaging 27/8/7 in the regular season. That's his baseline, that's his par for expectations.... he then dropped to 18/7/7 on 48%.

Just so I can double check my own logic against yours, I'll leave this question for you to answer when you are sober. Which is a worse and reasonable fall off: -4 PPG while suffering from knee problems, or -9 PPG while suffering from fear?

Nah you're right. Bron played worse, but tell me if the Mavs weren't paying the most attention to him. I felt like every series, the teams best defender squared off vs Bron, leaving Wade to take advantage of certain matchups.

By the rematch vs the Spurs, Wade looked truly washed up. Which is a shame considering they were saving him all season for those moments to begin with.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 08:12 PM
Not quit sure I understand your point in the opening question, I would say what he has now with 3 rings and 1 fmvp is better than both the scenarios you presented. Is it not?

I honestly dont think so but its an interesting proposition. Would you rather win playing your best, or win twice knowing you're hampered?

bucketss
05-07-2015, 08:16 PM
2 finals mvp.

that would make him on par with kobe for me. or atleast pretty close.

Cal827
05-07-2015, 08:23 PM
2 FMVPs.

When their carers are done, people would've looked at Wade, and think back to the year where he won FMVP over Lebron James, who many of us think will be in the top 3-5 players of all time when he's done. Lebron might have struggled in the series, but regardless, people sometimes forget when a great player somewhat struggles if the team wins it all. E.g. Jordan vs Seattle in 96.

Dade County
05-07-2015, 09:18 PM
Damn it!! Good thread, but now I got to go off on Lbj for that con job he pulled.




Chronz... Why not add in everything? He was going to win Final's Mvp (until Le-Con started not to play, in 4 straight 4th quarters!!!) The man only avg like 2.7 pts or some crap like that in those 4 straight 4th quarter games.

It was a ****ing choke job... Lbj beat the Pistons by himself!

Man F this ****

gatkins11
05-07-2015, 10:46 PM
Contrary to what anyone says, without Wade we would have never won a title in the Lebron James era so to be honest it's close because Wade has been an integral part of Miami winning all of their championships. However I voted 2 rings and 2 Finals MVP awards because 2 Finals MVP awards would really elevate him. His 2006 Finals was probably the greatest Finals performance of all time and had Miami won in 2011, his 2011 Finals Performance probably would have been Top 5ish.

I know this goes against the scenario you were mentioning, but say Miami still beat OKC in 2012 but lost to the Spurs in the Finals of both 2013 and 2014 before Lebron left that would leave Wade 3 rings and 2 Finals MVP awards as well. I find that scenario more likely (basically trading the 2013 title for the 2011 title). If Miami had won in 2011, because of Wade's performances in the '06 and '11 Finals as well as being All NBA player and all star year in and year out he would probably easily go down as a top 15-20 player ever.

In reality however, I currently see Wade as a top 40 player ever and I believe he will probably end up being around top 25 all time by the time he is done. Being a 3x champion with 1 Finals MVP, as well as being an 11x All Star, and an 8x All-NBA player puts him above many. That means he wasn't just on a team that won titles, he was an outstanding player year in and year out. He may deal with injuries and what not, but he is one of the greats.

Shooting 97 free throws will do that.

TylerSL
05-08-2015, 12:12 AM
Dude, that kind of resume puts him potentially on par with Bron IMO, if not right behind. Im starting to think its really unfair to diminish Wade's stature for not winning that year, guy played inspired those Finals. Funny how 2 wins changes so much.

I completely agree, right now I have Lebron in the 12-14 range all time and with that resume Wade would be 15ish. Even without those 2 wins Dwyane Wade will definitely go down top 25 all time, and I would bet he will be top 20 by the time he's done. He is truly great and a lot of people look passed him because he played with Lebron.

TylerSL
05-08-2015, 12:20 AM
Shooting 97 free throws will do that.

2006 was before Wade had much of a jumpshot and when you drive to the rim 20+ times a game like Wade did back then you get the foul line. That's not an insult, that was his game back then. Remember fall down 7 get up 8?

Young Dwyane Wade attacked the paint like few in this league ever have, and he really, REALLY carried the Heat in 2006.

Redrum187
05-08-2015, 12:21 AM
I completely agree, right now I have Lebron in the 12-14 range all time and with that resume Wade would be 15ish. Even without those 2 wins Dwyane Wade will definitely go down top 25 all time, and I would bet he will be top 20 by the time he's done. He is truly great and a lot of people look passed him because he played with Lebron.

You think he'll pass 5 more players with his remaining years left?

TylerSL
05-08-2015, 12:34 AM
You think he'll pass 5 more players with his remaining years left?

I honestly can't say for sure but whose to say he can't win one more ring before he's done? Or at least make it back to the Finals. I mean next year with Bosh back Miami's going to be as competitive as anyone in the East and in 2016 the franchise will have some cap space.

There's no reason to think he wont continue to be an All Star for another year or two, and he's gonna pass the 20,000 point mark next season. He could at least be an 18 PPG scorer for another 2-3 years easily. He's currently a 3x champ with 1 FMVP, an 11x All Star and 8x All-NBA player.

Who's to say he doesn't finish his career a 13x All Star, 9x All-NBA player, and a 4x champ with 1 FMVP to go along with 25,000 career points, 5,000 assists, 4,500 rebounds, and 850 blocks? That wouldn't be top 20 to you? All possible for Wade to accomplish, he just has to be able stay on the court.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2015, 12:58 AM
Sorry FC, but if Lebron didn't get wrecked by terry and played somewhat decent they would have beat the Mavs.

Not buying it. No team ever loses because of the play of 1 man, it really is that much of a team game. Bron let them down, doesn't mean its all on him. I've seen players play worse in victory.

Well according to you Lebron fans, he can win a series by himself. So why is it he couldn't win the series with wade playing out of his mind? Quit the bs excuses, Lebron was the deciding factor in that series and choked hard.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2015, 12:59 AM
Damn it!! Good thread, but now I got to go off on Lbj for that con job he pulled.




Chronz... Why not add in everything? He was going to win Final's Mvp (until Le-Con started not to play, in 4 straight 4th quarters!!!) The man only avg like 2.7 pts or some crap like that in those 4 straight 4th quarter games.

It was a ****ing choke job... Lbj beat the Pistons by himself!

Man F this ****

But but Chronz said that it wasn't lebrons fault.

Redrum187
05-08-2015, 01:13 AM
I honestly can't say for sure but whose to say he can't win one more ring before he's done? Or at least make it back to the Finals. I mean next year with Bosh back Miami's going to be as competitive as anyone in the East and in 2016 the franchise will have some cap space.

There's no reason to think he wont continue to be an All Star for another year or two, and he's gonna pass the 20,000 point mark next season. He could at least be an 18 PPG scorer for another 2-3 years easily. He's currently a 3x champ with 1 FMVP, an 11x All Star and 8x All-NBA player.

Who's to say he doesn't finish his career a 13x All Star, 9x All-NBA player, and a 4x champ with 1 FMVP to go along with 25,000 career points, 5,000 assists, 4,500 rebounds, and 850 blocks? That wouldn't be top 20 to you? All possible for Wade to accomplish, he just has to be able stay on the court.

I wouldn't poke at anyone that had him in their top 20 by any means, I just think the older guys might be underrated a bit if he leaps to 20. I have him at about 25-30, with him having to be vintage Wade for a few more years to skip 5 players.

FlashBolt
05-08-2015, 01:23 AM
Well according to you Lebron fans, he can win a series by himself. So why is it he couldn't win the series with wade playing out of his mind? Quit the bs excuses, Lebron was the deciding factor in that series and choked hard.

But if Wade was so good, how come he couldn't carry them?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2015, 02:16 AM
Well according to you Lebron fans, he can win a series by himself. So why is it he couldn't win the series with wade playing out of his mind? Quit the bs excuses, Lebron was the deciding factor in that series and choked hard.

But if Wade was so good, how come he couldn't carry them?

Because Lebron choked the series away... Unfortunately as good as Wade was he wasn't 06-09 wade. He definitely needed more help from Lebron, especially since Lebron was the better player.

Sactown
05-08-2015, 02:52 AM
Because Lebron choked the series away... Unfortunately as good as Wade was he wasn't 06-09 wade. He definitely needed more help from Lebron, especially since Lebron was the better player.

He was so good Wade shot 6 of 16 for 17 points and 5 turnovers #Beastmode

Reality is LeBron was bad , but half the time Wade was just mediocre , he cracked 20FGA in 3 or 4 games in that series to get his points, to me that series showed when Wade was the primary handler for that team and was the more aggressive of the two, the team was considerably worse.. New few season LeBron became the dominate player and they went on to win championships

Bostonjorge
05-08-2015, 03:31 AM
But if Wade was so good, how come he couldn't carry them?

James 24 turnovers was wades down fall. James was a liability. Not only was Wade playing amazing he still kept trying to get James into the series. Wade should of just used James the way love is being used and wades numbers go up even higher. Having James stand and wait at the three point land and take the ball out of his hands eliminates the 24 turnovers the biggest no no in the game.

Also not one player in that weak Cleveland scrub team that James carried against Detroit had more then 10 turnovers the whole series. If James had a player playing like 2011 final James then no way Cleveland wins and goes to the finals.

beasted86
05-08-2015, 10:42 AM
That was yesterday.


I dunno about that one, might depend on what defensive stats you're talking about. But you're prolly right that Bron played worse, didn't realize his stats were so decent, still below league average efficiency.

They faced an elite 2-way team so his dropoff is understandable but I dont see any uptick in his defensive metrics. His efficiency fell off a cliff, fg% understates the dropoff because of how rudimentary of a barometer it is, when it comes to winning games, possession efficiency is what matters. A guy who doesn't really space the floor for his teammates ( partly why Bron often played better with him on the bench that series) and wasn't getting to the line at his ordinary rates, needs to shoot MUCH better than 47%. He was actually below league average for the series in terms of raw efficiency. He had a HUGE G4 but that was about it.

Statistics aside, I didn't like his defensive effort nor how he was playing off his teammates, it took him FOREVER to realize he had to defend Danny Green. At least Bron was given credit by Jet for locking him up to start the series. I really feel like Bron carried the much bigger load all playoffs.


Nah you're right. Bron played worse, but tell me if the Mavs weren't paying the most attention to him. I felt like every series, the teams best defender squared off vs Bron, leaving Wade to take advantage of certain matchups.

By the rematch vs the Spurs, Wade looked truly washed up. Which is a shame considering they were saving him all season for those moments to begin with.

No, you're clearly still drunk here, or maybe somebody slipped you a Mickey at the bar.

Wade's drop in efficiency was way less compared to LeBron's drop in the 2013 Finals in comparison to their regular season numbers. Again you're being overly critical against Wade and not others for unknown reasons. If you are saying Wade didn't meet expectations, then neither did LeBron or Bosh or Parker or Duncan. Every team's all-star players underperformed and fell off a cliff per expectations gauged from the regular season.

And at some point you need to understand Wade was injured in 2014. He wasn't healthy and simply out there making poor decisions for the heck of it. You can just watch the way he was moving out there he wasn't right.

He was injured the whole year, nonetheless not making excuses he underperformed in 2014 to expectations.

WaDe03
05-08-2015, 01:22 PM
Should be 4/2 but oh well. Id say 3/1 is better though.

Chronz
05-08-2015, 01:28 PM
Well according to you Lebron fans, he can win a series by himself. So why is it he couldn't win the series with wade playing out of his mind? Quit the bs excuses, Lebron was the deciding factor in that series and choked hard.

First off, Im an NBA fan. Secondly, I've never stated 1 man wins by himself just as I've never stated 1 man loses by himself. Keep relying on straws, Ill keep relying on facts.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2015, 02:52 PM
Well according to you Lebron fans, he can win a series by himself. So why is it he couldn't win the series with wade playing out of his mind? Quit the bs excuses, Lebron was the deciding factor in that series and choked hard.

First off, Im an NBA fan. Secondly, I've never stated 1 man wins by himself just as I've never stated 1 man loses by himself. Keep relying on straws, Ill keep relying on facts.

No you're not. You're a homer clippers fan, and Lebron fan. You can try n convince everybody that Lebron didn't lose that series, but anyone with a pair of eyes knows that Lebron is too blame for the outcome.

Chronz
05-08-2015, 03:29 PM
No you're not. You're a homer clippers fan, and Lebron fan. You can try n convince everybody that Lebron didn't lose that series, but anyone with a pair of eyes knows that Lebron is too blame for the outcome.
False. I dont have to try and convince anyone of anything, I only care about the strength of the argument laid out in front of me. Keep living in your hypothetical world, and stop trying to trick me into adding you as a friend bro, its not gonna happen. The sooner your perma-banned, the better off we'll all be.

Chronz
05-08-2015, 03:32 PM
No, you're clearly still drunk here, or maybe somebody slipped you a Mickey at the bar.

Wade's drop in efficiency was way less compared to LeBron's drop in the 2013 Finals in comparison to their regular season numbers. Again you're being overly critical against Wade and not others for unknown reasons. If you are saying Wade didn't meet expectations, then neither did LeBron or Bosh or Parker or Duncan. Every team's all-star players underperformed and fell off a cliff per expectations gauged from the regular season.

And at some point you need to understand Wade was injured in 2014. He wasn't healthy and simply out there making poor decisions for the heck of it. You can just watch the way he was moving out there he wasn't right.

He was injured the whole year, nonetheless not making excuses he underperformed in 2014 to expectations.

lol dude, I already said you were right. Are you drunk?

YAALREADYKNO
05-08-2015, 06:27 PM
😂😂😂 at lebron isn't to blame for the heat losing the 2011 finals to the Mavs.

Bring The Heat
05-08-2015, 06:42 PM
What Chronz is trying to get at is that LeBron played bad and obviously let down his team no denying that. But last time I checked the heat had a big 3 in Wade and bosh. So those guys are just blame as well.. Not 100% of the blame should be on LeBron if there are two other all stars beside him... How about when Kobe played horrific in Game 7 against the Celtics

Bring The Heat
05-08-2015, 06:45 PM
What Chronz is trying to get at is that LeBron played bad and obviously let down his team no denying that. But last time I checked the heat had a big 3 in Wade and bosh. So those guys are just blame as well.. Not 100% of the blame should be on LeBron if there are two other all stars beside him... How about when Kobe played horrific and shot the ball terribly in Game 7 against the Celtics and almost cost his team the game? Pau Gasol saved his butt and the rest of his teammates. That's why basketball is a team game and it's important for everybody to contribute as well..

Tony_Starks
05-08-2015, 09:30 PM
What Chronz is trying to get at is that LeBron played bad and obviously let down his team no denying that. But last time I checked the heat had a big 3 in Wade and bosh. So those guys are just blame as well.. Not 100% of the blame should be on LeBron if there are two other all stars beside him... How about when Kobe played horrific in Game 7 against the Celtics

Horrific? You mean his 10 points in the 4th, his jumper mid way through the fourth to give the Lakers their first lead of the half, his 15 boards, or his assist to Artest for the game winning 3?

Don't believe the hype, he balled when it mattered even if his shot was off..,.

bucketss
05-08-2015, 09:43 PM
Horrific? You mean his 10 points in the 4th, his jumper mid way through the fourth to give the Lakers their first lead of the half, his 15 boards, or his assist to Artest for the game winning 3?

Don't believe the hype, he balled when it mattered even if his shot was off..,.

it was his fault they were down so much. he had a horrible game, but he finished well. still a bad game.

Chronz
05-08-2015, 10:22 PM
Horrific? You mean his 10 points in the 4th, his jumper mid way through the fourth to give the Lakers their first lead of the half, his 15 boards, or his assist to Artest for the game winning 3?

Don't believe the hype, he balled when it mattered even if his shot was off..,.

Must be nice to only ball when it matters.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-08-2015, 10:31 PM
What Chronz is trying to get at is that LeBron played bad and obviously let down his team no denying that. But last time I checked the heat had a big 3 in Wade and bosh. So those guys are just blame as well.. Not 100% of the blame should be on LeBron if there are two other all stars beside him... How about when Kobe played horrific in Game 7 against the Celtics

Horrific? You mean his 10 points in the 4th, his jumper mid way through the fourth to give the Lakers their first lead of the half, his 15 boards, or his assist to Artest for the game winning 3?

Don't believe the hype, he balled when it mattered even if his shot was off..,.

Exactly. Haters gonna hate

bucketss
05-08-2015, 10:36 PM
welp can't do anything with people who refuse to criticize their fav player.

Tony_Starks
05-08-2015, 11:06 PM
Horrific? You mean his 10 points in the 4th, his jumper mid way through the fourth to give the Lakers their first lead of the half, his 15 boards, or his assist to Artest for the game winning 3?

Don't believe the hype, he balled when it mattered even if his shot was off..,.

it was his fault they were down so much. he had a horrible game, but he finished well. still a bad game.

Right. Would've been better to have a better statistical game, disappear in the fourth, and take a efficient loss on the highest stage.

I'm sure everyone would've said its a team game and gave him a pass.

bucketss
05-08-2015, 11:12 PM
Right. Would've been better to have a better statistical game, disappear in the fourth, and take a efficient loss on the highest stage.

I'm sure everyone would've said its a team game and gave him a pass.

they wouldn't lose, because they wouldn't put themselves in that situation in the first place.

Tony_Starks
05-08-2015, 11:37 PM
Right. Would've been better to have a better statistical game, disappear in the fourth, and take a efficient loss on the highest stage.

I'm sure everyone would've said its a team game and gave him a pass.

they wouldn't lose, because they wouldn't put themselves in that situation in the first place.

Keep your would've could've should'ves, I'll take my memory of what actually happened and the parade that ensued....

mngopher35
05-09-2015, 12:00 AM
Keep your would've could've should'ves, I'll take my memory of what actually happened and the parade that ensued....

Horrific might have been a strong word, but that is kind of what that guys original point was. It is a team game so even though Kobe played poorly he had a good supporting cast and the team won the game/series. It usually isn't just up to one player whether an entire team wins or loses.

Chronz
05-09-2015, 12:09 AM
Right. Would've been better to have a better statistical game, disappear in the fourth, and take a efficient loss on the highest stage.

I'm sure everyone would've said its a team game and gave him a pass.
That depends on what you value. Do you value a star playing great or your team compensating for your stars struggles. In either event, what does it matter? Are we discussing the strength of the individual or his supporting cast.
The LOGO himself admits how stupid it is to judge INDIVIDUALS strictly by TEAM results. Hes the type of guy to know he played BETTER in DEFEAT than he did in the only title he actually won. Guess what, the objective evidence has backed him.

HeatFan
05-09-2015, 02:25 PM
Lets say that in 2011, the Heat win the Chip with Wade hoisting F.MVP. Thats obviously a HUGE legacy altering addition to his resume, but what if we also say that he doesn't win the following 2 seasons.

Which is the better outcome, Wade being a 3x Champ or Wade being a 2x FMVP ?

I don't think it would matter much either way. If he had won 2011 with FMVP, I'm sure there would have been many arguing it was easier because of the Heat's "Super Team" and he wouldn't have done it without Lebron, bla bla bla.. Both ways I think what will ultimately affect (and I think in a good way) Wade's legacy is the 2006 finals performance by itself which IMO is #1 of all time (of course I'm a fan), definitely top 3 all time. He basically did it "alone" if you will with an almost broken down Shaq and many veterans in their final years.

Wade has been a great player but as much as I hate to admit, brining in Lebron regardless of the result was always going to taint his overall legacy to a certain extent where he basically goes a level or two below other players like Kobe.