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KnicksorBust
05-04-2015, 12:29 PM
"By finishing 3rd in this year's MVP voting, LeBron James joins Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as the only players with 10 consecutive top-5 finishes in MVP voting."

Incredible. Not even Duncan and Kobe can claim this feat.

Chronz
05-04-2015, 12:36 PM
Its utter BS that CP3 was left off so many ballots , Bron did not have a better case.

KnicksorBust
05-04-2015, 12:46 PM
Its utter BS that CP3 was left off so many ballots , Bron did not have a better case.

Even if you put CP3 ahead of him he's still top 5. Stop hatin'

FraziersKnicks
05-04-2015, 12:56 PM
I agree with Chronz, CP3 should've been above LeBron.

1. Curry
2. Harden
3. CP3
4. LeBron
5. AD

FraziersKnicks
05-04-2015, 12:59 PM
Still, another incredible achievement for the greatest player since MJ.

ThaDubs
05-04-2015, 01:01 PM
Impressive. But I expect nothing less from the second greatest basketball player of all time.

Chronz
05-04-2015, 01:08 PM
Even if you put CP3 ahead of him he's still top 5. Stop hatin'

Its a great accomplishment, only if you relish in the glory of knowing hes been "contending" enough to garner this accolade longer than anyone else.

MonroeFAN
05-04-2015, 01:23 PM
I don't view this as being a big deal at all tbh.

I doubt Lebron does either. As said earlier in this topic (non-quote sorry) he is a top 5 player of all time. It makes perfect sense that he would be in consideration every year considering that and his elite bill of health.

ThuglifeJ
05-04-2015, 01:33 PM
Still, another incredible achievement for the greatest player since MJ.

Duncan.
Shaq.

>

ThaDubs
05-04-2015, 01:35 PM
Duncan.
Shaq.

>

Over LeBron? Are you absolutely serious?

xxplayerxx23
05-04-2015, 01:37 PM
Duncan.
Shaq.

>


No

kdspurman
05-04-2015, 01:55 PM
Over LeBron? Are you absolutely serious?

Depends on who you ask. Not outrageous though IMO. Always tough w/different positions.

curtcocaine
05-04-2015, 02:11 PM
Duncan over LeChaser....

kdspurman
05-04-2015, 02:13 PM
I don't view this as being a big deal at all tbh.

I doubt Lebron does either. As said earlier in this topic (non-quote sorry) he is a top 5 player of all time. It makes perfect sense that he would be in consideration every year considering that and his elite bill of health.

Probably right on that one

ThaDubs
05-04-2015, 02:13 PM
Depends on who you ask. Not outrageous though IMO. Always tough w/different positions.

Not trying to discredit Duncan or Shaq– two amazing players and all-time greats who have a case for the being the best to ever play their respective positions– but we're talking about a guy who's hit a PER of 30 numerous times, 31 a couple times, is a 4-time MVP and a 2-time finals MVP, led the league in scoring, is the best passing forward of all time by a landslide, and has a pretty legit shot to go down as the league's all-time leading scorer. Not saying the following are all-determining factors, but if you go by PER and proportional win-shares, LeBron's two best years were better than any MJ ever had.

FraziersKnicks
05-04-2015, 02:42 PM
Lets not turn this into a LeBron vs. Duncan/Shaq debate. Can't go wrong with either 3 of them. Certainly the greatest players of the post-MJ era.

SoxPatsCeltsBs
05-04-2015, 02:44 PM
Massive amounts of LeBron boners

nickdymez
05-04-2015, 02:49 PM
Massive amounts of LeBron boners

lmao. You see this ****???

kdspurman
05-04-2015, 03:02 PM
Lets not turn this into a LeBron vs. Duncan/Shaq debate. Can't go wrong with either 3 of them. Certainly the greatest players of the post-MJ era.

The OP had something re: Duncan & Kobe not doing this, so it was sort of there I guess to start that, even though Shaq wasn't mentioned. Not totally off base IMO, but probably good to try and stay on the topic at hand if possible.

FraziersKnicks
05-04-2015, 03:16 PM
The OP had something re: Duncan & Kobe not doing this, so it was sort of there I guess to start that, even though Shaq wasn't mentioned. Not totally off base IMO, but probably good to try and stay on the topic at hand if possible.

Yeah not really sure why they were mentioned. A thread about LeBron is gonna create enough discussion without having to rile up other fanbases.

Tony_Starks
05-04-2015, 03:24 PM
That's actually more of an indictment on the legitimacy of the MVP award than a achievement....

Chronz
05-04-2015, 03:37 PM
That's actually more of an indictment on the legitimacy of the MVP award than a achievement....

What makes you think so. Can you point to a season in which these guys were wrongly misplaced?

5ass
05-04-2015, 03:38 PM
And still in his prime lmao

still1ballin
05-04-2015, 03:41 PM
People already crowning Lebron as 2nd best ever? Jee wiz!!!

Gotta love PSD :laugh2:

Chronz
05-04-2015, 04:04 PM
Not trying to discredit Duncan or Shaq– two amazing players and all-time greats who have a case for the being the best to ever play their respective positions– but we're talking about a guy who's hit a PER of 30 numerous times, 31 a couple times, is a 4-time MVP and a 2-time finals MVP, led the league in scoring, is the best passing forward of all time by a landslide, and has a pretty legit shot to go down as the league's all-time leading scorer. Not saying the following are all-determining factors, but if you go by PER and proportional win-shares, LeBron's two best years were better than any MJ ever had.

But playoffs and teammate influence matter. Duncan and Shaq were superior playoff performers IMO. Bron had 1 single season in which you could say he was similarly dominant.

Bos_Sports4Life
05-04-2015, 04:20 PM
Not trying to discredit Duncan or Shaq– two amazing players and all-time greats who have a case for the being the best to ever play their respective positions– but we're talking about a guy who's hit a PER of 30 numerous times, 31 a couple times


I don't mind using saber stats...but I have a few opinions on them..

* They shouldn't be used as a basis of an opinion like its used in baseball for hitting. Its just not as accurate.

* I HATE PER. Dumb advanced stat with so many holes, ugh

I mean I'll use guys I have at least seen a bit of or at least quite a bit of footage.

Big Al is NOT the player Kevin McHale is....He's not. Big al is NOT a top 50 talent since they started keeping track of PER.

Freaking Pippen is #117, the guy at 116? David West...

is a 4-time MVP and a 2-time finals MVP, led the league in scoring[/QUOTE]

sure



is the best passing forward of all time by a landslide

I think the word landslide is a little strong.



and has a pretty legit shot to go down as the league's all-time leading scorer. Not saying the following are all-determining factors, but if you go by PER and proportional win-shares, LeBron's two best years were better than any MJ ever had.

issue is?

Who would you trust more in a close game 7 type situation? IMO it's MJ 10 times out of 10. He never lost with HCA, he was always the top performer in the finals for either team, and the man was obsessed with winning. To me that's what separates the two.

Lebron is obviously a top 10 all time talent and the best SF of all time (I had him by bird probably 2ish yrs ago) but I just think he has more mental flaws than a guy like MJ.

I mean Lebron for example the reaction he got from Cle fans effected him mentally his first yr in Mia....What ever really go into MJ's head?

Tony_Starks
05-04-2015, 04:24 PM
That's actually more of an indictment on the legitimacy of the MVP award than a achievement....

What makes you think so. Can you point to a season in which these guys were wrongly misplaced?

You can easily make a case that Kobe and Shaq should've been top 5 in voting for 10 years. The voters held playing together against them because they were both elite superstars but didn't do the same for Lebron playing with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie... Haven't really looked at the numbers but I'm pretty sure CP3 should have a good argument for top 5 for a decade as well, Lebron getting more votes than him this year after taking a 2 week vacay is beyond laughable.

KnicksorBust
05-04-2015, 04:34 PM
The OP had something re: Duncan & Kobe not doing this, so it was sort of there I guess to start that, even though Shaq wasn't mentioned. Not totally off base IMO, but probably good to try and stay on the topic at hand if possible.

Those two players are synonymous with sustained greatness so I was genuinely surprised that LeBron had accomplished something that compared his productivity as more consistently elite than Duncan and Kobe. I found that incredibly interesting and relevant considering they are all roughly within 5 players of each other on the majority of all-time lists.

Chronz
05-04-2015, 04:39 PM
You can easily make a case that Kobe and Shaq should've been top 5 in voting for 10 years. The voters held playing together against them because they were both elite superstars but didn't do the same for Lebron playing with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie... Haven't really looked at the numbers but I'm pretty sure CP3 should have a good argument for top 5 for a decade as well, Lebron getting more votes than him this year after taking a 2 week vacay is beyond laughable.

But this is about CONSECUTIVE YEARS. CP3 had injury riddled seasons that DQ him. If you want to simply include just top-5 finishes I dont think it changes Brons stature much but I havent seen the facts either. Just dont see your point without any sort of evidence.

Bostonjorge
05-04-2015, 04:42 PM
Great accomplishment but nothing major. Since a players production in the west is being compared to a players production in the east. Great numbers in the west more often then not leads to a title. In the east not so much.

Tony_Starks
05-04-2015, 04:46 PM
You can easily make a case that Kobe and Shaq should've been top 5 in voting for 10 years. The voters held playing together against them because they were both elite superstars but didn't do the same for Lebron playing with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie... Haven't really looked at the numbers but I'm pretty sure CP3 should have a good argument for top 5 for a decade as well, Lebron getting more votes than him this year after taking a 2 week vacay is beyond laughable.

But this is about CONSECUTIVE YEARS. CP3 had injury riddled seasons that DQ him. If you want to simply include just top-5 finishes I dont think it changes Brons stature much but I havent seen the facts either. Just dont see your point without any sort of evidence.

Well CP3 aside Kobe and Shaq most definitely had 10 consecutive years if you look at Shaqs run pre-during-post Lakers and Kobes run pre and post Shaq. Hell Kobe has had a run of elite years only to be paralleled to Kareem's, a run that even haters will make the longevity " case for.

Chronz
05-04-2015, 04:51 PM
Great accomplishment but nothing major. Since a players production in the west is being compared to a players production in the east. Great numbers in the west more often then not leads to a title. In the east not so much.

LOL.. what kind of faux analysis is this? Titles do not correlate well to individuals, sorry, this aint Tennis bro. We have ACTUAL barometers that account for strength of opposition that matter more than vague theories.

KnicksorBust
05-04-2015, 06:14 PM
Great accomplishment but nothing major. Since a players production in the west is being compared to a players production in the east. Great numbers in the west more often then not leads to a title. In the east not so much.

It is major. I value sustained greatness and post-season success as two of the most important measures of a player's career.

KnicksorBust
05-04-2015, 06:15 PM
I guarantee at some point in the future I will use this argument as part of my reasoning for ranking Lebron at a higher rank on an all-time list.

Tony_Starks
05-04-2015, 06:17 PM
Great accomplishment but nothing major. Since a players production in the west is being compared to a players production in the east. Great numbers in the west more often then not leads to a title. In the east not so much.

It is major. I value sustained greatness and post-season success as two of the most important measures of a player's career.

+ 1

DemarDerozan
05-04-2015, 10:35 PM
I guarantee at some point in the future I will use this argument as part of my reasoning for ranking Lebron at a higher rank on an all-time list.

Make sure you put an asterisk next to your argument to represent that this fool won his MVPs during one of the weakest superstar eras of the sport... And that the league manufactured his super team.

Silent
05-04-2015, 10:40 PM
1. Curry
2. Harden
3. AD
4. Westy
5. CP3

Andrew32
05-04-2015, 11:04 PM
MVP voting aside Shaq was a Top 5 player from 94-04 (11 years)
Was also definitely Top 5 in 2005 before his late season pre-playoff injury.

MVP wise was 4th in 94, 2nd in 95 and 2nd in 05.

koreancabbage
05-05-2015, 06:54 AM
Make sure you put an asterisk next to your argument to represent that this fool won his MVPs during one of the weakest superstar eras of the sport... And that the league manufactured his super team.

so what? Lebron is still everything to his team and usually and his team is usually at the top of the standings and a contender for the last 4-5 years albeit the flaws of those super teams - which doesn't really make them super. The talent of the three superseded the team's needs in reality. You know who has a super team - San Antonio - great coach and pieces that fit together nicely would be a super team. 12 players deep is a super team.

Take Lebron away from any of his teams and they are possibly no better than a fringe playoff team i.e. Cleveland and Miami.

i don't know how that takes anything away from his feat - he would still be a highly regarded MVP candidate in the last 10 years that would have a chance to win it in those 10 years.

all i hear is bitterness against one guy. pretty much a hater.

ewing
05-05-2015, 09:33 AM
MVP candidates are great players on top teams. LeBron is a great player who is always on a top team b/c he has no loyalty :shrug:

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 09:44 AM
MVP candidates are great players on top teams. LeBron is a great player who is always on a top team b/c he has no loyalty :shrug:

or cause any team he is on is a top team because he plays for them.....

ewing
05-05-2015, 09:52 AM
or cause any team he is on is a top team because he plays for them.....



that would also be a possibility but we both know its not true. You cant put Bron on any team and have them be a contender. Bron is always at the top of the league b/c he is a conniving douche.

valade16
05-05-2015, 09:52 AM
Let's get real, who here would take Wade/Bosh over say KAJ, Worthy, Cooper, etc. Or McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson, etc. Or Pippen/Rodman?

LeBron's teams were no more stacked than any other successful team of the past.

valade16
05-05-2015, 09:53 AM
that would also be a possibility but we both know its not true. You cant put Bron on any team and have them be a contender. Bron is always at the top of the league b/c he is a conniving douche.

Can you name a team right now that you put Bron on and they don't win at least 10 more games than the year before? I can't.

ewing
05-05-2015, 09:58 AM
Can you name a team right now that you put Bron on and they don't win at least 10 more games than the year before? I can't.


no but there are a lot of teams that still wouldn't be contenders or near contender. To be at the top of the MVP voting you normally need to be on a contender. As far as other teams in history being loaded. So what? The best player on those loaded teams finished top 5 in MVP voting.

Bron is always on one of those teams b/c he has no loyalty

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 10:21 AM
that would also be a possibility but we both know its not true. You cant put Bron on any team and have them be a contender. Bron is always at the top of the league b/c he is a conniving douche.

but every team he has been on is a contender, even the terrible cast in Cleveland he had. You can hate the dude all you want, don't let it change the fact that you understand he is probably one of the greatest 5 players to ever play in the NBA when all is said and done.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 10:21 AM
no but there are a lot of teams that still wouldn't be contenders or near contender. To be at the top of the MVP voting you normally need to be on a contender. As far as other teams in history being loaded. So what? The best player on those loaded teams finished top 5 in MVP voting.

Bron is always on one of those teams b/c he has no loyalty

because when he is on a team, that team is a contender. It really is that simple.

ewing
05-05-2015, 11:05 AM
because when he is on a team, that team is a contender. It really is that simple.


no its not. its true that all his teams have been contenders for a long time. Its also true that he has been an incredible opportunists and jumped ship on 2 teams. his leaving those teams and colluding have put him in a better situation to win and thus more likely to be at or near the top of the league in MVP voting every year.

Tony_Starks
05-05-2015, 11:11 AM
Lebron is going to get mvp votes no matter what because his stats are efficient and he's "the best player on the planet." In fact if there wouldn't be a huge fan backlash they'd basically pencil him in as mvp until he makes a sharp decline. Had he played the whole season he probably finishes 2nd in voting....

ewing
05-05-2015, 11:16 AM
Lebron is going to get mvp votes no matter what because his stats are efficient and he's "the best player on the planet." In fact if there wouldn't be a huge fan backlash they'd basically pencil him in as mvp until he makes a sharp decline. Had he played the whole season he probably finishes 2nd in voting....


if he sacked up and didn't blow town and preassemble a new team at the first sign of trouble he might have wound up on a 40 win team one year and not gotten the votes that year.

valade16
05-05-2015, 11:34 AM
no but there are a lot of teams that still wouldn't be contenders or near contender. To be at the top of the MVP voting you normally need to be on a contender. As far as other teams in history being loaded. So what? The best player on those loaded teams finished top 5 in MVP voting.

Bron is always on one of those teams b/c he has no loyalty


no its not. its true that all his teams have been contenders for a long time. Its also true that he has been an incredible opportunists and jumped ship on 2 teams. his leaving those teams and colluding have put him in a better situation to win and thus more likely to be at or near the top of the league in MVP voting every year.

Actually, if anything him going to Miami hurt his MVP chances. He won MVPs his last 2 years in Cleveland and didn't win one his first year in Miami despite posting the best stats in the league because people knocked him for going to Miami. Had he stayed in Cleveland and continued putting up monstrous stats he likely wins 3 in a row and God knows how many more.

Are you seriously saying had he stayed in Cleveland he drops out of the Top 5 in voting? His achievement is 10 straight years at Top 5 finish or better. Do the math, that means he had 5 seasons on his first Cavs stint where he finished Top 5, which is every year but his first 2 years (his 2nd year he finished 6th in voting FYI). His last 2 seasons in Cleveland they won 66 and 61 games.

I think the analysis you're giving is the definition of hater.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 11:38 AM
no its not. its true that all his teams have been contenders for a long time. Its also true that he has been an incredible opportunists and jumped ship on 2 teams. his leaving those teams and colluding have put him in a better situation to win and thus more likely to be at or near the top of the league in MVP voting every year.

have you met the 20-30 year old generation of America? Loyalty is dead.

And why should have stayed in Cleveland?

You can despise the way he has used Free Agency to better his situation, but it just doesn't change the fact that he is/has been an awesome player. And ever team he has been on since year 3-4 is a contender, and for the large part, because of him being there.

Chronz
05-05-2015, 11:38 AM
if he sacked up and didn't blow town and preassemble a new team at the first sign of trouble he might have wound up on a 40 win team one year and not gotten the votes that year.
He sacked up and went back to Cleveland. First sign of trouble? You mean like when they lost his first year there ?

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 11:40 AM
Still, another incredible achievement for the greatest player since MJ.

3rd*

nickdymez
05-05-2015, 12:06 PM
or cause any team he is on is a top team because he plays for them.....
Same could be said for a healthier Durant right? Or harden?

nickdymez
05-05-2015, 12:06 PM
Can you name a team right now that you put Bron on and they don't win at least 10 more games than the year before? I can't.
I can name 5 players that would also bring a similar result

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 12:18 PM
Same could be said for a healthier Durant right? Or harden?

Durant, possibly, we don't know, he has always had another all star or two with him.

Harden, no way.

nickdymez
05-05-2015, 12:22 PM
Durant, possibly, we don't know, he has always had another all star or two with him.

Harden, no way.
Well harden pretty much did it this year. They were crushed with injuries

ewing
05-05-2015, 12:24 PM
He sacked up and went back to Cleveland. [/B]First sign of trouble? You mean like when they lost his first year there ?


not sure if you are being ******** on purpose or not

KnicksorBust
05-05-2015, 12:28 PM
have you met the 20-30 year old generation of America? Loyalty is dead.

And why should have stayed in Cleveland?

You can despise the way he has used Free Agency to better his situation, but it just doesn't change the fact that he is/has been an awesome player. And ever team he has been on since year 3-4 is a contender, and for the large part, because of him being there.

I still don't think he did anything wrong by choosing to leave Cleveland. The way he did it was questionable but the leaving was completely the right decision.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 12:33 PM
I still don't think he did anything wrong by choosing to leave Cleveland. The way he did it was questionable but the leaving was completely the right decision.

He fulfilled his contract for his employer, and decided a better opportunity was with another organization.

When people stop looking looking at professional sports like it's some club that you cut your finger and make a promise to never leave, and instead look at it for what it is (a business), they will stop with the nonsense that he left, therefore should have it held against him.

Did he do it in a fashion that rubs many the wrong way? Of course. But he did nothing wrong, from a business/basketball standpoint at all.

KnicksorBust
05-05-2015, 12:35 PM
He fulfilled his contract for his employer, and decided a better opportunity was with another organization.

When people stop looking looking at professional sports like it's some club that you cut your finger and make a promise to never leave, and instead look at it for what it is (a business), they will stop with the nonsense that he left, therefore should have it held against him.

Did he do it in a fashion that rubs many the wrong way? Of course. But he did nothing wrong, from a business/basketball standpoint at all.

Yeah we agree here. How boring...

ewing
05-05-2015, 12:40 PM
He fulfilled his contract for his employer, and decided a better opportunity was with another organization.

When people stop looking looking at professional sports like it's some club that you cut your finger and make a promise to never leave, and instead look at it for what it is (a business), they will stop with the nonsense that he left, therefore should have it held against him.

Did he do it in a fashion that rubs many the wrong way? Of course. But he did nothing wrong, from a business/basketball standpoint at all.



last i checked collusion was a no- no and if we going to talk about team accomplishments and compared Bron to others greats based on that, it clearly matters weather you think he was justified or not

Chronz
05-05-2015, 02:39 PM
not sure if you are being ******** on purpose or not

Super serious

Chronz
05-05-2015, 02:41 PM
last i checked collusion was a no- no and if we going to talk about team accomplishments and compared Bron to others great based on that, it clearly matters weather you think he was justified or not

Collusion is just a theory, one not backed by judging who Riley tried to get in FA before BronS year

Chronz
05-05-2015, 02:42 PM
Ps collusion has been around since the days of rookies choosing/threatening where to go

ewing
05-05-2015, 02:48 PM
Collusion is just a theory, one not backed by judging who Riley tried to get in FA before BronS year

this isn't a court of law. I don't need prove. It obvious he did it, both times. this time he traded the #1 pick in the draft before signing. we all found out it was going to happen b/c of a letter his representatives wrote in his name to the media to curry public opinion. The guy has made a complete mockery of the way things are supposed to be done.

ewing
05-05-2015, 02:49 PM
Ps collusion has been around since the days of rookies choosing/threatening where to go

if it never happened they probably wouldn't need to make a rule against it

Bostonjorge
05-05-2015, 02:58 PM
Yes what James did was business. It was cut throat evil business. He opened up a supper store(team) in a poor area where little stores that don't stand a chance to compete(east conference) and destroyed the weak competition. Like a true business scumbag.

Chronz
05-05-2015, 03:03 PM
this isn't a court of law. I don't need prove. It obvious he did it, both times. this time he traded the #1 pick in the draft before signing. we all found out it was going to happen b/c of a letter his representatives wrote in his name to the media to curry public opinion. The guy has made a complete mockery of the way things are supposed to be done.

That you go against the standards of the law doesn't help you. Collusion is illegal even in the NBA , if it were as obvious as u claim, we would have more than just conjecture and contradicting facts. Sadly, Riley DID in fact try to spend cap space before the big3 we're even in town. You underrate just how worried management was of losing wade imo

Chronz
05-05-2015, 03:06 PM
if it never happened they probably wouldn't need to make a rule against it

A rule not enforced cuz of the facts and lack of evidence. Sorry but the onus is on u to prove ur baseless allegations. The way other s have in the past

ewing
05-05-2015, 03:13 PM
A rule not enforced cuz of the facts and lack of evidence. Sorry but the onus is on u to prove ur baseless allegations. The way other s have in the past

you're blind dude.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 03:34 PM
Meh not impressed

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 03:36 PM
last i checked collusion was a no- no and if we going to talk about team accomplishments and compared Bron to others greats based on that, it clearly matters weather you think he was justified or not

when was it proven?

And ewing, you were all talking about how your grammar is the bomb the other day. bad ewing, bad. haha

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 03:36 PM
Yes what James did was business. It was cut throat evil business. He opened up a supper store(team) in a poor area where little stores that don't stand a chance to compete(east conference) and destroyed the weak competition. Like a true business scumbag.

haha, that is awesome actually

ThaDubs
05-05-2015, 03:40 PM
* I HATE PER. Dumb advanced stat with so many holes, ugh

Not really

ThaDubs
05-05-2015, 03:43 PM
3rd*

After???

numba1CHANGsta
05-05-2015, 03:48 PM
The league is in love with LeBron so not surprised, but this isn't that big of a deal as MVP votes don't always translate to championships:

Russell-11 rings
Kareem-6 rings
LeBron-2 rings

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 04:39 PM
The league is in love with LeBron so not surprised, but this isn't that big of a deal as MVP votes don't always translate to championships:

Russell-11 rings
Kareem-6 rings
LeBron-2 rings

MVP is an individual award. Championships are a team award.

IKnowHoops
05-05-2015, 04:50 PM
But playoffs and teammate influence matter. Duncan and Shaq were superior playoff performers IMO. Bron had 1 single season in which you could say he was similarly dominant.

I disagree. He put up giant numbers against teams when on cleveland. He's got a season in which he had the second highest PER for playoffs ever. He averaged like 35/11/9 in a series in a loss to the magic one year. His teams didn't go as far as Shaq and Tim because they had superior teammates and coaching, but on a series by series basis, I'd say Lebron has many series that are as good or better than Duncan's best. Shaq on the other hand put up very very ridic numbers and he and Lebron probably go back in forth on a series by series basis. If your basing your argument off of winning, then yeah, Duncan and Shaq had more success, but based off numbers, Lebron is better than Duncan for sure.

Chronz
05-05-2015, 05:11 PM
I disagree. He put up giant numbers against teams when on cleveland.
Shaq put up huge numbers against the DPOY and throughout a longer finals run vs superior comp. Duncan was similarly dominant in some runs. Winning matters alil bro.


He's got a season in which he had the second highest PER for playoffs ever. He averaged like 35/11/9 in a series in a loss to the magic one year.
VS a team that allowed wing players to have their best showing. Check out Kobe's line vs them as opposed to his line vs a quality wing defense in Boston. Same player, same support, VASTLY different defensive coverage and opposition.


His teams didn't go as far as Shaq and Tim because they had superior teammates and coaching,
Thats your opinion/excuse. Having superior teammates can also suppress stats, that and facing quality competition. Notice how Duncan has some of his best lines in series where he loses. Put it this way, whats a better run. Duncan in 2002 where he has a career high in his post season line, but loses in the Semis. Or the year after where he posts some of his worst lines vs a DOMINANT defense like Detroit? Google the word Context, after that , google opposition based stat lines.


but on a series by series basis, I'd say Lebron has many series that are as good or better than Duncan's best.
Can you show us any sort of analysis that identifies these series? You know me man, I dont take fake analysis lightly.


Shaq on the other hand put up very very ridic numbers and he and Lebron probably go back in forth on a series by series basis. If your basing your argument off of winning, then yeah, Duncan and Shaq had more success, but based off numbers, Lebron is better than Duncan for sure.
I like to think Im basing it off opposition adjusted numbers. And I NEVER disregard winning completely so if you're expecting me to do so, then we will never agree on ANYTHING related to the NBA.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 05:12 PM
Its utter BS that CP3 was left off so many ballots , Bron did not have a better case.

CP3 is like Duncan in that he always performs at such a high level, people forget about him.

I thought he should have won it 2 years ago. LBJ got it, deservedly so (he had the better individual performance), but I thought that year that CP3 made that team SO much better and truly was an MVP, setting a franchise record for wins, and being a leader on the floor and keeping guys motivated, aside from his amazing stats. The problem is, once you do that, it becomes the expectation, so from then on, you have to top that if you want to be in consideration again.

If the Clip can pull of 60 wins, the CP3 will have a shot. Otherwise, he'll have to move to a new team and help them with a huge turnaround if he hopes to be in contention for the award again.

If CP3 retires without ever winning an MVP, I think that will be a bigger slight than had Kobe retired without one.

But so many great point guards get overlooked for this award: Thomas, Stockton, Payton, Kidd, CP3.... hell... even Mike James.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 05:15 PM
The league is in love with LeBron so not surprised, but this isn't that big of a deal as MVP votes don't always translate to championships:

Russell-11 rings
Kareem-6 rings
LeBron-2 rings

I love Russell as much as the next guy, but when people say '11 rings' for him, they always leave out the fact that the post season was half as long and there were only 8 teams to beat out.

LBJ won two, but he beat out 30 teams to win those two. And he's got five conference championships, which required him beating out 15 teams: almost twice as many teams as Russell had to beat out for his 11 rings.

When you go from a 1/8 chance, to a 1/30 chance.... you are bound to win less.

Chronz
05-05-2015, 05:22 PM
CP3 is like Duncan in that he always performs at such a high level, people forget about him.

I thought he should have won it 2 years ago. LBJ got it, deservedly so (he had the better individual performance), but I thought that year that CP3 made that team SO much better and truly was an MVP, setting a franchise record for wins, and being a leader on the floor and keeping guys motivated, aside from his amazing stats. The problem is, once you do that, it becomes the expectation, so from then on, you have to top that if you want to be in consideration again.

If the Clip can pull of 60 wins, the CP3 will have a shot. Otherwise, he'll have to move to a new team and help them with a huge turnaround if he hopes to be in contention for the award again.

If CP3 retires without ever winning an MVP, I think that will be a bigger slight than had Kobe retired without one.

But so many great point guards get overlooked for this award: Thomas, Stockton, Payton, Kidd, CP3.... hell... even Mike James.

You overrated CP3 that year then. Not by much but I have never had him as the clear cut MVP. I do think he and Kobe+KG were all equally vital, but KG was my selection in his best RS season.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 05:33 PM
You can easily make a case that Kobe... should've been top 5 in voting for 10 years.

No... not 10 straight years. He had that injury season where his team missed the playoffs. That was certainly ot worthy of a top-10 placement, let alone a top 5, and that was smack dab in the middle of his career, so that breaks up the consecutive streak. Not to mention his first few seasons Shaq was the MVP of that team.

Kobe has been worthy of top 5 placement more than 10 times, yes, but not ten times in a row.

This accomplishment is in part about luck, as in being lucky not to get injured, but also sustained excellence.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 05:38 PM
No... not 10 straight years. He had that injury season where his team missed the playoffs. That was certainly ot worthy of a top-10 placement, let alone a top 5, and that was smack dab in the middle of his career, so that breaks up the consecutive streak. Not to mention his first few seasons Shaq was the MVP of that team.

Kobe has been worthy of top 5 placement more than 10 times, yes, but not ten times in a row.

This accomplishment is in part about luck, as in being lucky not to get injured, but also sustained excellence.

Kobe did have 12 straight years finishing top 5 in MVP shares. But yes, he missed almost 20 games in successive seasons, and his team failed to make the playoffs one year, and were basically a .500 team the following year, which eliminates him.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 05:39 PM
MVP voting aside Shaq was a Top 5 player from 94-04 (11 years)
Was also definitely Top 5 in 2005 before his late season pre-playoff injury.

MVP wise was 4th in 94, 2nd in 95 and 2nd in 05.

I dunno... Hakeem and DRob were arguably better in 94, 95 and 96.

But those years you also had Jordan, Pippen, Karl Malone, Charles Barkely and John Stockton all playing at HOF levels. One might say: "Shaq was more dominant than Stockton", but Stockton was setting career records for steals and assists and playing at a level unheard of at his position and unmatched still today.

It's hard to say concretely that he was a top five player each of those seasons, or that he was a top-five MVP candidate. He certainly has a case, but there were some amazing talents in the league at that time.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 05:41 PM
3rd*

After??? Kobe and Duncan

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 05:42 PM
The league is in love with LeBron so not surprised, but this isn't that big of a deal as MVP votes don't always translate to championships:

Russell-11 rings
Kareem-6 rings
LeBron-2 rings

MVP is an individual award. Championships are a team award.

Media *

Chronz
05-05-2015, 05:44 PM
No... not 10 straight years. He had that injury season where his team missed the playoffs. That was certainly ot worthy of a top-10 placement, let alone a top 5, and that was smack dab in the middle of his career, so that breaks up the consecutive streak. Not to mention his first few seasons Shaq was the MVP of that team.

Kobe has been worthy of top 5 placement more than 10 times, yes, but not ten times in a row.

This accomplishment is in part about luck, as in being lucky not to get injured, but also sustained excellence.

I have to look it up but that season is INSTANTLY what I thought of when he made that claim.

Chronz
05-05-2015, 05:46 PM
Kobe and Duncan

*Shaq and Duncan


Media *
Except for the fact that former coaches and players voted for him ahead of Nash (SN MVP), so he would actually have MORE MVP's if it wasn't for the media.

LMFAO, do you ever look insightful?

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 05:49 PM
MVP candidates are great players on top teams. LeBron is a great player who is always on a top team b/c he has no loyalty :shrug:

The teams he's on are top teams because he makes them top teams.

The Heat were first-round fodder before he game; then they were in the finals. He left, and even though they replaced him with an All-Star they missed the playoffs without him. The Cavs were a lottery team without him last year; the won their division with him this year.

Kobe, Magic, Bird, Duncan... they all stayed on their teams because their GMs were always able to reload; nobody holds that against. Nobody says: Yeah, but Bird's/Magic's/Kobe's/Duncan's only had long runs because their GMs were as bad as Gervin's and Garnett's (guys who stayed with the same team for a LONG time but whose GMs never built a contender around them).

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 05:50 PM
Kobe and Duncan

*Shaq and Duncan


Media *
Except for the fact that former coaches and players voted for him ahead of Nash (SN MVP), so he would actually have MORE MVP's if it wasn't for the media.

LMFAO, do you ever look insightful?

Youre right 4th, Kobe, Duncan , Shaq.



I think you missed the point kiddo

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 05:50 PM
Kudos to LBJ for this.

The fact that he is the only player to do that in so long is as much an indication as his sustained excellence as it is of the way MVP voters undervalue Duncan.

Duncan has been a top-five MVP candidate from 99-15.

Tony_Starks
05-05-2015, 06:02 PM
You can easily make a case that Kobe... should've been top 5 in voting for 10 years.

No... not 10 straight years. He had that injury season where his team missed the playoffs. That was certainly ot worthy of a top-10 placement, let alone a top 5, and that was smack dab in the middle of his career, so that breaks up the consecutive streak. Not to mention his first few seasons Shaq was the MVP of that team.

Kobe has been worthy of top 5 placement more than 10 times, yes, but not ten times in a row.

This accomplishment is in part about luck, as in being lucky not to get injured, but also sustained excellence.

That injury season he still was MVP caliber while on the floor. Westbrook was injured a good portion of this season, team missed the playoffs, and still finished 4th in voting. His season was better than that. So going by today's standards yes he still easily should've been top 5 for 10 straight years.....

Chronz
05-05-2015, 06:06 PM
Youre right 4th, Kobe, Duncan , Shaq.
Where did I list him? Are you talking peak or career?


I think you missed the point kiddo
I think you're wrong. Can you disagree without the insults? Prove you're an adult before calling others children.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 06:08 PM
Youre right 4th, Kobe, Duncan , Shaq.
Where did I list him? Are you talking peak or career?

[QUOTE]I think you missed the point kiddo
I think you're wrong. Can you disagree without the insults? Prove you're an adult before calling others children.

It's an award based off opinions, get it now? Ships and finals Mvps are won in the floor.

Chronz
05-05-2015, 06:12 PM
It's an award based off opinions, get it now? Ships and finals Mvps are won in the floor.
LOL have you really come to this? OK, show me where I said the award wasn't opinionated.... All awards are subjective bro, hate to break the news but you're really out of your league here. What makes it worse is that all objective evidence we have suggests hes still more than what you credit. Hence the fact that that the media has actually SUPPRESSED (google the word bro) his MVP tally.

IKnowHoops
05-05-2015, 06:13 PM
If you weren't watching basketball in the 80's-90's but want to talk about the loyalty back then you should do more research to understand why things are the way they are. The NBA used to give out 7 year contracts and longer. Now I think the max is 5. NBA teams didn't want to be loyal. They didn't want to sign people to long contracts anymore to protect themselves. So Obviously if Teams change there approach, players now need to go find a leg up. If teams could sign Lebron to a 10 year 350 million dollar contract, then he would in effect be loyal. You haters need to stop.

IKnowHoops
05-05-2015, 06:22 PM
Shaq put up huge numbers against the DPOY and throughout a longer finals run vs superior comp. Duncan was similarly dominant in some runs. Winning matters alil bro.


VS a team that allowed wing players to have their best showing. Check out Kobe's line vs them as opposed to his line vs a quality wing defense in Boston. Same player, same support, VASTLY different defensive coverage and opposition.


Thats your opinion/excuse. Having superior teammates can also suppress stats, that and facing quality competition. Notice how Duncan has some of his best lines in series where he loses. Put it this way, whats a better run. Duncan in 2002 where he has a career high in his post season line, but loses in the Semis. Or the year after where he posts some of his worst lines vs a DOMINANT defense like Detroit? Google the word Context, after that , google opposition based stat lines.


Can you show us any sort of analysis that identifies these series? You know me man, I dont take fake analysis lightly.


I like to think Im basing it off opposition adjusted numbers. And I NEVER disregard winning completely so if you're expecting me to do so, then we will never agree on ANYTHING related to the NBA.

I feel you on what your saying and I agree with what your saying, but isn't it a fact that Popovich, Riley, and Phil are better coaches than Eric Spoelstra and Brown? Some Opinions are facts, and I like to think thats one of them.

I'll get back to you on the playoff series thing.

Jamiecballer
05-05-2015, 06:36 PM
it's always the same thing on PSD. basketball fans vs kobe's troll army. how do you guys not get sick of the same responses to the same posters and around we go...

Bostonjorge
05-05-2015, 06:51 PM
I think some are making a bigger deal then what it is. James has been dominating the #2 conference his whole career. Then in turn gets dominated by the west teams in the finals. James playing in the second banana conference against the second banana teams is a huge adavantage. He will never miss the playoffs and have deep playoff runs.

What is more impressive James dominating #2 teams the 9-16 ranked teams in the playoffs or clippers beating the Champs in round 1. Blake did that with no super team and MVP votes.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 06:51 PM
It's an award based off opinions, get it now? Ships and finals Mvps are won in the floor.
LOL have you really come to this? OK, show me where I said the award wasn't opinionated.... All awards are subjective bro, hate to break the news but you're really out of your league here. What makes it worse is that all objective evidence we have suggests hes still more than what you credit. Hence the fact that that the media has actually SUPPRESSED (google the word bro) his MVP tally.
Strike 2 FC

Chronz
05-05-2015, 07:06 PM
Strike 2 FC

Google the word Strike.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 07:08 PM
If you weren't watching basketball in the 80's-90's but want to talk about the loyalty back then you should do more research to understand why things are the way they are. The NBA used to give out 7 year contracts and longer. Now I think the max is 5. NBA teams didn't want to be loyal. They didn't want to sign people to long contracts anymore to protect themselves. So Obviously if Teams change there approach, players now need to go find a leg up. If teams could sign Lebron to a 10 year 350 million dollar contract, then he would in effect be loyal. You haters need to stop.


go further. How many of our Dad's worked for the same company 30+ years? That **** doesn't happen anymore. Loyalty, from both the entitled youth of America, and the companies that offer employment, is completely different than 20, 30, 50 years ago.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2015, 07:09 PM
I think some are making a bigger deal then what it is. James has been dominating the #2 conference his whole career. Then in turn gets dominated by the west teams in the finals. James playing in the second banana conference against the second banana teams is a huge adavantage. He will never miss the playoffs and have deep playoff runs.

What is more impressive James dominating #2 teams the 9-16 ranked teams in the playoffs or clippers beating the Champs in round 1. Blake did that with no super team and MVP votes.

the GOAT enjoyed his 6 chips and playoff dominance in conference #2. So? So did Bird. Or any star that has played in the east since the early 80's.

Bostonjorge
05-05-2015, 07:16 PM
the GOAT enjoyed his 6 chips and playoff dominance in conference #2. So? So did Bird. Or any star that has played in the east since the early 80's.

Going 6 and 0 in the finals against the west offsets that. Big difference.

Tony_Starks
05-05-2015, 07:20 PM
If you weren't watching basketball in the 80's-90's but want to talk about the loyalty back then you should do more research to understand why things are the way they are. The NBA used to give out 7 year contracts and longer. Now I think the max is 5. NBA teams didn't want to be loyal. They didn't want to sign people to long contracts anymore to protect themselves. So Obviously if Teams change there approach, players now need to go find a leg up. If teams could sign Lebron to a 10 year 350 million dollar contract, then he would in effect be loyal. You haters need to stop.

Even though this is true the Duncan, Kobe, Wades, of the world are still always going to be viewed in a different light than a "opportunist." I'm not saying that's fair, I'm not saying that's right but no matter how it came about players who won multiple rings being lifers on their team are placed in another rare category by the vast majority....

Chronz
05-05-2015, 07:39 PM
go further. How many of our Dad's worked for the same company 30+ years? That **** doesn't happen anymore. Loyalty, from both the entitled youth of America, and the companies that offer employment, is completely different than 20, 30, 50 years ago.

Not in the NBA. Going back to the days of Wilt Chamberlain, why should he be expected to stay with a team that didn't value him? He didnt, he went to a better team that would heighten his stature. Hell he left a superior team when he felt they betrayed his trust. He wound up regretting the move for his career but he knew it was right in the moment for himself.

You're only loyal so long as its a 2-way st. And that can come down to whatever that individual deems. Look at Kobe, he was given a contending roster since his rookie year, they trade Shaq away to accommodate him and he demands a trade within s meager 3-years. And thats Kobe, the guy who forced his way onto a big market before even entering the NBA. Look at MJ, he threatened to retire or demand a trade if his team dare trade away his binkie Pippen. So yeah, F loyalty and the idea that it should exist in every situation.

F LOYALTY. Blind allegiances dont help anyone except the guy who fooled you into thinking its a 2-way street.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-05-2015, 07:39 PM
the GOAT enjoyed his 6 chips and playoff dominance in conference #2. So? So did Bird. Or any star that has played in the east since the early 80's.

Going 6 and 0 in the finals against the west offsets that. Big difference.^^^

Chronz
05-05-2015, 07:41 PM
Even though this is true the Duncan, Kobe, Wades, of the world are still always going to be viewed in a different light than a "opportunist." I'm not saying that's fair, I'm not saying that's right but no matter how it came about players who won multiple rings being lifers on their team are placed in another rare category by the vast majority....
I think his point is that different doesn't equate to better, because we're not robots, we can actually dissect context and understand the reasoning. I dont care how many teams a superior player plays with. So long as hes actually the better player, thats what matters most. Not everyone is gifted a great franchise from day 1.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 11:47 PM
That injury season he still was MVP caliber while on the floor. Westbrook was injured a good portion of this season, team missed the playoffs, and still finished 4th in voting. His season was better than that. So going by today's standards yes he still easily should've been top 5 for 10 straight years.....

It's the most valuable player award, not the who has the best per-game averages award.

His team was in the lottery. They weren't winning. It's not like nights when he was playing they looked like a contender.

And he played FAR less games than Westy did this year and his team was NOWHERE near making the playoff, nor over .500; Westy's team was WELL over .500 and tied with the 8th seed.

I don't see how you could even hope to compare their seasons in terms of MVP status.

JasonJohnHorn
05-05-2015, 11:49 PM
If you weren't watching basketball in the 80's-90's but want to talk about the loyalty back then you should do more research to understand why things are the way they are. The NBA used to give out 7 year contracts and longer. Now I think the max is 5. NBA teams didn't want to be loyal. They didn't want to sign people to long contracts anymore to protect themselves. So Obviously if Teams change there approach, players now need to go find a leg up. If teams could sign Lebron to a 10 year 350 million dollar contract, then he would in effect be loyal. You haters need to stop.

+1

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 02:28 AM
If I'm building a team, only players I'm taking over Bron are Shaq and Jordan. Those three will give you the best chance of winning any day.

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 02:35 AM
LeBron in Miami: "He left to join a superteam, STACKED."

LeBron loses to Spurs: "LeBron choked and sucked. He is a statpadder."

LeBron leaves Miami for Cleveland: "He saw his team wasn't good enough so he left to form a new superteam."

You guys make this sound like a damn comic book. When he wins, it's because it's stacked. When he loses, it's because he's not good enough. But if he isn't good enough, where is his stacked team at to help him? Must be that Kobe flavored Kool-Aid.

L8kers4life
05-06-2015, 03:09 AM
it's always the same thing on PSD. basketball fans vs kobe's troll army. how do you guys not get sick of the same responses to the same posters and around we go...


Hey Bro I know how it is, but just reading this whole thread there is definitely a Lebron army as well, I think people just need to stop comparing the 2, Kobe fans should just try to stay away from all LeBron topics, it just leads to annoying arguments and bitterness...

Hawkeye15
05-06-2015, 10:31 AM
Going 6 and 0 in the finals against the west offsets that. Big difference.

well, yeah. That is why he is the GOAT haha. But to act like he went through a gauntlet is ridiculous.

Hawkeye15
05-06-2015, 10:33 AM
Hey Bro I know how it is, but just reading this whole thread there is definitely a Lebron army as well, I think people just need to stop comparing the 2, Kobe fans should just try to stay away from all LeBron topics, it just leads to annoying arguments and bitterness...

it is tiresome....sigh

The one thing I will point out, is the Kobe supporters are massively Laker fans, while LeBron supporters are from every fan base. Says something imo....

ewing
05-06-2015, 10:49 AM
well, yeah. That is why he is the GOAT haha. But to act like he went through a gauntlet is ridiculous.


to act like the east in his era was a comparable to the East in Bron's era is ridiculous. Like it or not the Pacers and Knicks were as legit a title contender during that era as anyone in the West was. Teams like the Heat, Cavs, etc weren't bad either. You paint everything to meet the conclusion you want.

Its the same with this drivel where everyone compares Bron leaving to KG in Minn or Chuck wanting out of Philly. Bron left title contenders. You can think that's OK and he not a ***** but he didn't play with trash and he did face significantly weaker comp in getting to the finals

Hawkeye15
05-06-2015, 11:00 AM
to act like the east in his era was a comparable to the East in Bron's era is ridiculous. Like it or not the Pacers and Knicks were as legit a title contender during that era as anyone in the West was. Teams like the Heat, Cavs, etc weren't bad either. You paint everything to meet the conclusion you want.

Its the same with this drivel where everyone compares Bron leaving to KG in Minn or Chuck wanting out of Philly. Bron left title contenders. You can think that's OK and he not a ***** but he didn't play with trash and he did face significantly weaker comp in getting to the finals

he played with trash in Cleveland, and 2 of the runs in Miami he wasn't getting the help many paint.

LeBron left in FA, he wasn't traded, there is no similarity to those situations.

I disagree on your assessment of the strength of the east back in Jordan's days. While it wasn't the utter garbage we have seen now and then the last 5 years, there weren't contenders floating around every year.

ewing
05-06-2015, 11:08 AM
he played with trash in Cleveland, and 2 of the runs in Miami he wasn't getting the help many paint.

LeBron left in FA, he wasn't traded, there is no similarity to those situations.

I disagree on your assessment of the strength of the east back in Jordan's days. While it wasn't the utter garbage we have seen now and then the last 5 years, there weren't contenders floating around every year.


The teams he left were not trash and he faced significantly weaker comp in making the finals. those are facts.

Hawkeye15
05-06-2015, 11:41 AM
The teams he left were not trash and he faced significantly weaker comp in making the finals. those are facts.

Cleveland earned #1 picks as a gutter team when he left. Miami without him this year did what?

The dude adds a massive amount of wins to any team he plays for, that is just the way it is.

koreancabbage
05-06-2015, 11:42 AM
The teams he left were not trash and he faced significantly weaker comp in making the finals. those are facts.

they were trash teams. but thats because Lebron was the system. they had pieces that fit the way Lebron played well with. but because a lot of the pieces were basically over glorified role players, the team had no talent left except pretty much role players and former stars that were a shell of themselves.

Even with Miami's Bosh healthy this year, I could still see them still finishing bottom playoff team or lottery. They had no depth afterwards.

those are facts.

koreancabbage
05-06-2015, 11:43 AM
and plus Lebron on any western conference team makes them a NBA championship round favorite, lets not kid ourselves now. the same way any team he plays on in the East could be a potential NBA championship round favorite as well.

Jamiecballer
05-06-2015, 11:47 AM
Hey Bro I know how it is, but just reading this whole thread there is definitely a Lebron army as well, I think people just need to stop comparing the 2, Kobe fans should just try to stay away from all LeBron topics, it just leads to annoying arguments and bitterness...
agreed.

it is tiresome....sigh

The one thing I will point out, is the Kobe supporters are massively Laker fans, while LeBron supporters are from every fan base. Says something imo....
and agreed.

i'm tired of it. i apologize to Kobe fans, he's not my cup of tea but i won't try and tell you that he isn't as great as you remember ever again. i hereby retire from the ***** slapping competition.

koreancabbage
05-06-2015, 11:48 AM
I'll make an even bolder statement - I think if he went to the Lakers with him and Kobe playing together, potential to be contenders as well, possibly shaking up the Lakers FA to get the pieces together.

ewing
05-06-2015, 12:07 PM
Cleveland earned #1 picks as a gutter team when he left. Miami without him this year did what?

The dude adds a massive amount of wins to any team he plays for, that is just the way it is.


No one is arguing that he doesn't add a ton of value.

I wish could make you read slower. Again- The teams he left were not trash. he played significantly weaker comp in reaching the NBA finals.

ewing
05-06-2015, 12:10 PM
I'll make an even bolder statement - I think if he went to the Lakers with him and Kobe playing together, potential to be contenders as well, possibly shaking up the Lakers FA to get the pieces together.

how is that bolder then saying any WC team as presently constructed. The LeBron has gone to your head

Hawkeye15
05-06-2015, 12:16 PM
No one is arguing that he doesn't add a ton of value.

I wish could make you read slower. Again- The teams he left were not trash. he played significantly weaker comp in reaching the NBA finals.

yes, he played in the far lesser conference, competitive wise.

I can't read slow. Took a stupid speed reading course in high school, and now I fly over crap and miss half of enroute to finishing in record time.

A gift, and a curse...

ewing
05-06-2015, 12:58 PM
yes, he played in the far lesser conference, competitive wise.

I can't read slow. Took a stupid speed reading course in high school, and now i fly over crap and miss half of enroute to finishing in record time.

A gift, and a curse...

lol

Vinylman
05-06-2015, 02:33 PM
the GOAT enjoyed his 6 chips and playoff dominance in conference #2. So? So did Bird. Or any star that has played in the east since the early 80's.

huh? which team has LeBron faced that was the 80s equivalent of philly or Detroit?

Also, you really don't help Lebron's case when you point out that he is in a weak *** conference but has only won the chip twice while the GOAT won it all 6 times...

Again, Lebron's legacy has been inordinately improved by playing in the east.

And Championships do matter when the player is acting like the GM which is obviously the impact Lebron has on an organization

FraziersKnicks
05-06-2015, 02:57 PM
So the new knock on LeBron is nothing to do with him and his ability to play basketball? We're now judging him on how well other people can play basketball in the conference he's in. Just for the record, LeBron's career numbers against each conference:

LeBron James vs. East: 580 games, 27.3 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.8 APG on .494/.327/.751
LeBron James vs. West: 331 games, 27.5 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 7.1 APG on .500/.368/.731

As an individual (once again, how we should be rating LeBron when discussing his legacy), he has marginally better numbers against the West throughout his career.

valade16
05-06-2015, 03:20 PM
No one is arguing that he doesn't add a ton of value.

I wish could make you read slower. Again- The teams he left were not trash. he played significantly weaker comp in reaching the NBA finals.

Somebody should tell that to the those team's records after Bron left. Because one of you is lying…

ewing
05-06-2015, 03:26 PM
Somebody should tell that to the those team's records after Bron left. Because one of you is lying…

holy crap am i speaking a different language? The teams he left were not trash. Those teams the next year are not the teams he left. there is clearly a drop off b/t Bron and his replacement and both team had other significant changes.

koreancabbage
05-06-2015, 03:43 PM
how is that bolder then saying any WC team as presently constructed. The LeBron has gone to your head

nope, just saying Lebron would help any team make that next step. Whether it be himself or management making the necessary gamble additions because they got Lebron.

FraziersKnicks
05-06-2015, 03:53 PM
holy crap am i speaking a different language? The teams he left were not trash. Those teams the next year are not the teams he left. there is clearly a drop off b/t Bron and his replacement and both team had other significant changes.

2009-10 Cavs:

LeBron James
Mo Williams
Delonte West
Shaquille O'Neal
Anderson Varejao
Antawn Jamison
Daniel Gibson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Anthony Parker
JJ Hickson
Jamario Moon

The bolded players were on that horrendous Cavs team of 2010-11 that went 19-63 after going 61-21 with LeBron. So they lost 38 year old Shaq, 35 year old Big Z and Delonte West along with LeBron.

The Cavs lost a total of 8.9 win shares from rotation players leaving in the summer of 2010 (not including LeBron of course). They added 7.2 win shares with new rotation players (Ramon Sessions, Ryan Hollins and Alonzo Gee).

So how else are you gonna account for the 42 game discrepancy in the win column?

valade16
05-06-2015, 03:55 PM
holy crap am i speaking a different language? The teams he left were not trash. Those teams the next year are not the teams he left. there is clearly a drop off b/t Bron and his replacement and both team had other significant changes.

So in your opinion this team isn't trash?

Mo Williams
Antawn Jamison
37 yr old Shaq
Sebastian Telfair
Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
J.J. Hickson
34 yr old Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Anthony Parker

That team in the league right now would be the worst team in the league unquestionably. They would challenge the all-time record for losses in a season. That is the roster he left in Cleveland. The year Bron left they lost 37 yr old Shaq, 34 yr old Zydrunas and Sebastian Telfair. They actually added Ramon Sessions. So unless you think Old Shaq/Big Z were responsible for 40 wins, something doesn't add up.

Also, for the Heat, here is a pre-season prediction that had the Heat at 3rd:

http://sportsunbiased.com/nba/35252/nba-2014-15-predictions-eastern-conference-win-loss-projections-for-all-15-teams/14/

Everyone assumed they would make the playoffs because of how good they were. You can say the teams he left weren't trash but it's pretty obvious they weren't good either.

Bostonjorge
05-06-2015, 03:58 PM
James leaving Miami and bosh going down is why Miami missed the playoffs. Paul George went down and pacers went from the best record in the east two strait years to a bigger joke then Miami with out James. Paul even went on a run when he came back and almost got that joke team in.

If George can effect a team this much In the east then I have no dought in my mind that kobe makes the playoffs every single year with deep playoffs runs every single time out east.

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:03 PM
So in your opinion this team isn't trash?

Mo Williams
Antawn Jamison
37 yr old Shaq
Sebastian Telfair
Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
J.J. Hickson
34 yr old Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Anthony Parker

That team in the league right now would be the worst team in the league unquestionably. They would challenge the all-time record for losses in a season. That is the roster he left in Cleveland. The year Bron left they lost 37 yr old Shaq, 34 yr old Zydrunas and Sebastian Telfair. They actually added Ramon Sessions. So unless you think Old Shaq/Big Z were responsible for 40 wins, something doesn't add up.

Also, for the Heat, here is a pre-season prediction that had the Heat at 3rd:

http://sportsunbiased.com/nba/35252/nba-2014-15-predictions-eastern-conference-win-loss-projections-for-all-15-teams/14/

Everyone assumed they would make the playoffs because of how good they were. You can say the teams he left weren't trash but it's pretty obvious they weren't good either.


you really do have a reading problem the teams he left this includes LeBron James, were not trash. They were title contenders. LeBron walked out on two teams that were built for him while they were still extremely viable title contenders. He did so b/c he saw even greener pastures somewhere else and very likely colluded to make those situations exist. If you think that is cool, great. I think he is an ***.

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 04:04 PM
No one is arguing that he doesn't add a ton of value.

I wish could make you read slower. Again- The teams he left were not trash. he played significantly weaker comp in reaching the NBA finals.

They weren't trash so long as he was on them. When he left Cleveland, the team was the worst team in the league the next year. Thats called trash.

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:06 PM
They weren't trash so long as he was on them. When he left Cleveland, the team was the worst team in the league the next year. Thats called trash.



see the first sentence in the post you quoted :)

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 04:07 PM
you really do have a reading problem the teams he left this includes LeBron James, were not trash. They were title contenders. LeBron walked out on two teams that were built for him while they were still extremely viable title contenders. He did so b/c he saw even greener pastures somewhere else and very likely colluded to make those situations exist. If you think that is cool, great. I think he is an ***.

Your making the point. Any team with Lebron is a contender. The same team without him is trash. With him a contender. Without him Trash. With him contender. Without him trash. So yes we agree, Lebron can be added to a collection of the worst talent in the league and make them contenders. Glad we finally see eye to eye. Just wording it different.

Hawkeye15
05-06-2015, 04:09 PM
huh? which team has LeBron faced that was the 80s equivalent of philly or Detroit?

Also, you really don't help Lebron's case when you point out that he is in a weak *** conference but has only won the chip twice while the GOAT won it all 6 times...

Again, Lebron's legacy has been inordinately improved by playing in the east.

And Championships do matter when the player is acting like the GM which is obviously the impact Lebron has on an organization

Jordan had a 30 win team make the playoffs haha, cmon.

The power of the east back in the day is so overstated.

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 04:13 PM
see the first sentence in the post you quoted :)

Dang so what is it that you are arguing? LOL

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:15 PM
Your making the point. Any team with Lebron is a contender. The same team without him is trash. With him a contender. Without him Trash. With him contender. Without him trash. So yes we agree, Lebron can be added to a collection of the worst talent in the league and make them contenders. Glad we finally see eye to eye. Just wording it different.


If you take Harden off Houston this year how many games do they win? If you put him the wolves how many games do they win. Well, see he did it on Houston he must be able to do it on the Wolves right. No, he couldn't.

Those team were built around LeBron. They were good teams

valade16
05-06-2015, 04:18 PM
you really do have a reading problem the teams he left this includes LeBron James, were not trash. They were title contenders. LeBron walked out on two teams that were built for him while they were still extremely viable title contenders. He did so b/c he saw even greener pastures somewhere else and very likely colluded to make those situations exist. If you think that is cool, great. I think he is an ***.

And you have a reading comprehension problem. We have been saying non-stop the only reason those teams were good is because of LeBron James. Without LeBron James the Cavs were terrible. All you've proven by saying with James they were not trash is that James is really good, because the only difference between that team being good and trash was James.

Which kind of proves our point…

Vinylman
05-06-2015, 04:20 PM
Jordan had a 30 win team make the playoffs haha, cmon.

The power of the east back in the day is so overstated.

yes... lets evaluate the top end strength of a conference by assessing an 8th place team... seems logical

again... from the currrent Lebron run who are the 80's sixers and pistons... let alone Hawks and Bucks...

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:25 PM
And you have a reading comprehension problem. We have been saying non-stop the only reason those teams were good is because of LeBron James. Without LeBron James the Cavs were terrible. All you've proven by saying with James they were not trash is that James is really good, because the only difference between that team being good and trash was James.

Which kind of proves our point…


LeBron is really good. No one has ever said otherwise. Everyone justifies his leaving to franchises high and dry b/c they weren't good teams. BS. They were too.

valade16
05-06-2015, 04:26 PM
If you take Harden off Houston this year how many games do they win? If you put him the wolves how many games do they win. Well, see he did it on Houston he must be able to do it on the Wolves right. No, he couldn't.

Those team were built around LeBron. They were good teams

But they weren't though, that's what you're not getting. Bron's last year in Cleveland he led the team in PPG, RPG, APG and SPG and BPG in the playoffs. Against the Celtics he scored 27 PPG and the next most on his team was 13 by 37yr old Shaq. The year before when they lost to the Magic Bron scored 39 PPG that series, and they lost. He led the team in PPG, APG, SPG and BPG (and was only 1.0 RPG away from leading them in RPG).

The year before when the lost to the Celtics in 7, you'll never guess the stats there. Bron averaged 27 PPG and the next best player was Big Z at 12 PPG. He led the team in PPG, APG, SPG, and BPG (and was 2nd in RPG).

They were not good teams. They were the illusion of good teams because of one transcendent player.

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 04:28 PM
MVP candidates are great players on top teams. LeBron is a great player who is always on a top team b/c he has no loyalty :shrug:

See this is where the disconnect is. You seem to be saying two different things. Here you say he is always on a top team because he has no loyalty. But in Cleveland he was on a top team simply because he was that great. Had nothing to do with loyalty.


that would also be a possibility but we both know its not true. You cant put Bron on any team and have them be a contender. Bron is always at the top of the league b/c he is a conniving douche.
Again, here is a little double talk. Your saying this isn't true when he already proved it to be true because the same team without him was the worst team in the league. And with him won 66 games. So you can't say this isn't true, then agree later that he adds so much value that he can take the worst collection of talent in the league to the best record. Do you not see how you can be confusing here?


you really do have a reading problem the teams he left this includes LeBron James, were not trash. They were title contenders. LeBron walked out on two teams that were built for him while they were still extremely viable title contenders. He did so b/c he saw even greener pastures somewhere else and very likely colluded to make those situations exist. If you think that is cool, great. I think he is an ***.

These teams that were built for him...more like he made whatever work. He left Cleveland cause they couldn't build around him. If you think that Cleveland team was put together for James to win a ring your crazy. That was just the best they could get. They lost out on many free agents cause no one wanted to got to Cleveland. Never in the History of Basketball has one player made as big of a difference as Lebron did in Cleveland...as shown by the 40+ win difference. I challenge you to find another player in history that left a team and caused such a drop off not named David Robinson. (by the way that Spurs supporting cast was awful too.) And David is a top 5 most impactful player of all-time.


see the first sentence in the post you quoted :)

Your first sentence kind of goes against your previous statements. When you break it down, your not keeping it 100. Your a little all over the place trying to win arguments with semantics.

valade16
05-06-2015, 04:29 PM
LeBron is really good. No one has ever said otherwise. Everyone justifies his leaving to franchises high and dry b/c they weren't good teams. BS. They were too.
Look at my post on the #'s Bron was putting up in their losing playoff series. They were not good teams that gave him a chance to win titles. Those teams were never going to win titles. Which team do you think they could have beaten had he stayed?

The Mavs? The Thunder? The Spurs? Seriously, which of those teams do you think the Cleveland Cavaliers with Bron would have beaten?

Bostonjorge
05-06-2015, 04:30 PM
See this is where the disconnect is. You seem to be saying two different things. Here you say he is always on a top team because he has no loyalty. But in Cleveland he was on a top team simply because he was that great. Had nothing to do with loyalty.


Again, here is a little double talk. Your saying this isn't true when he already proved it to be true because the same team without him was the worst team in the league. And with him won 66 games. So you can't say this isn't true, then agree later that he adds so much value that he can take the worst collection of talent in the league to the best record. Do you not see how you can be confusing here?



These teams that were built for him...more like he made whatever work. He left Cleveland cause they couldn't build around him. If you think that Cleveland team was put together for James to win a ring your crazy. That was just the best they could get. They lost out on many free agents cause no one wanted to got to Cleveland. Never in the History of Basketball has one player made as big of a difference as Lebron did in Cleveland...as shown by the 40+ win difference. I challenge you to find another player in history that left a team and caused such a drop off not named David Robinson. (by the way that Spurs supporting cast was awful too.) And David is a top 5 most impactful player of all-time.

Paul George

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:30 PM
But they weren't though, that's what you're not getting. Bron's last year in Cleveland he led the team in PPG, RPG, APG and SPG and BPG in the playoffs. Against the Celtics he scored 27 PPG and the next most on his team was 13 by 37yr old Shaq. The year before when they lost to the Magic Bron scored 39 PPG that series, and they lost. He led the team in PPG, APG, SPG and BPG (and was only 1.0 RPG away from leading them in RPG).

The year before when the lost to the Celtics in 7, you'll never guess the stats there. Bron averaged 27 PPG and the next best player was Big Z at 12 PPG. He led the team in PPG, APG, SPG, and BPG (and was 2nd in RPG).

They were not good teams. They were the illusion of good teams because of one transcendent player.



They were a ball control team, that played solid D, and put the hands in of there best player in the 1/2 court as much as possible. Did he do an awesome job? Yeah. Does the fact that he did an awesome job mean he could duplicate the teams result with any scrubs in the NBA? No.

Vinylman
05-06-2015, 04:31 PM
So the new knock on LeBron is nothing to do with him and his ability to play basketball? We're now judging him on how well other people can play basketball in the conference he's in. Just for the record, LeBron's career numbers against each conference:

LeBron James vs. East: 580 games, 27.3 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.8 APG on .494/.327/.751
LeBron James vs. West: 331 games, 27.5 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 7.1 APG on .500/.368/.731

As an individual (once again, how we should be rating LeBron when discussing his legacy), he has marginally better numbers against the West throughout his career.

LMFAO ... no one is talking about his numbers... they are off the charts ... what people are talking about is his playoff/championship record in the context of all time greats... There is no doubting he has always had the easier road to playoff success by playing in the east because he never had to face multiple contenders to get to the finals. IF you dispute that you are being nothing more than argumentative...

To say he is top 2 GOAT of all time is laughable because he has not had significant posts season success based on the conference he plays in. People dismiss it by saying it is a team accomplishment vs a player accomplishment... that would be fair for some other all star but not lebron who has basically become the defacto GM of his last two teams...

Do you really think Pat Riley drafts Shabazz Napier other than to appease Lebron? Do you think Kevin Love is in Cleveland without Lebron's involvement?

People can't have it both ways

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 04:33 PM
If you take Harden off Houston this year how many games do they win? If you put him the wolves how many games do they win. Well, see he did it on Houston he must be able to do it on the Wolves right. No, he couldn't.

They were only good with Lebron. Other players had the luxury of playing with teams that were contenders and 50 win teams without them. Bird/Magic/Jordan. Ill take loaded with talent over "Terrible but built for a player" Lmbo

Those team were built around LeBron. They were good teams

AGAIN! They were only good with Lebron. Other players had the luxury of playing with teams that were contenders and 50 win teams without them. Bird/Magic/Jordan. Ill take loaded with talent over "Terrible but built for a player" Lmbo

Vinylman
05-06-2015, 04:37 PM
Look at my post on the #'s Bron was putting up in their losing playoff series. They were not good teams that gave him a chance to win titles. Those teams were never going to win titles. Which team do you think they could have beaten had he stayed?

The Mavs? The Thunder? The Spurs? Seriously, which of those teams do you think the Cleveland Cavaliers with Bron would have beaten?

Do us all a favor and go look up Jordan's first championship team and point out all the great players he had... him and a bunch of scrubs...

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:39 PM
AGAIN! They were only good with Lebron. Other players had the luxury of playing with teams that were contenders and 50 win teams without them. Bird/Magic/Jordan. Ill take loaded with talent over "Terrible but built for a player" Lmbo


well you should collude and make it happen, then after saying you are going to win 7 titles in that city the second you see signs of one your teams big players breaking down, do it again!!

valade16
05-06-2015, 04:43 PM
Do us all a favor and go look up Jordan's first championship team and point out all the great players he had... him and a bunch of scrubs...

I'm assuming you are implying that MJ was able to win with a bunch of scrubs by waiting it out but that fails for a number of obvious reasons, first of which is Scottie Pippen was certainly not a scrub :laugh2:

But most importantly, MJ was better than Bron so I would expect him to be able to do what Bron could not.

FraziersKnicks
05-06-2015, 04:48 PM
LMFAO ... no one is talking about his numbers... they are off the charts ... what people are talking about is his playoff/championship record in the context of all time greats... There is no doubting he has always had the easier road to playoff success by playing in the east because he never had to face multiple contenders to get to the finals. IF you dispute that you are being nothing more than argumentative...

To say he is top 2 GOAT of all time is laughable because he has not had significant posts season success based on the conference he plays in. People dismiss it by saying it is a team accomplishment vs a player accomplishment... that would be fair for some other all star but not lebron who has basically become the defacto GM of his last two teams...

Do you really think Pat Riley drafts Shabazz Napier other than to appease Lebron? Do you think Kevin Love is in Cleveland without Lebron's involvement?

People can't have it both ways

I have never once disagreed that his path to the finals wasn't easier in the East but from your tone you are suggesting he wouldn't have had the same success had he played his career in the West. Correct?

I absolutely don't have him anywhere near the top 2 in the All-Time rankings just yet. In terms of peak play he certainly has an argument for top 3 though.

ewing
05-06-2015, 04:49 PM
Look at my post on the #'s Bron was putting up in their losing playoff series. They were not good teams that gave him a chance to win titles. Those teams were never going to win titles. Which team do you think they could have beaten had he stayed?

The Mavs? The Thunder? The Spurs? Seriously, which of those teams do you think the Cleveland Cavaliers with Bron would have beaten?

Cry me a river. They won 68 games one year.

Vinylman
05-06-2015, 04:50 PM
I'm assuming you are implying that MJ was able to win with a bunch of scrubs by waiting it out but that fails for a number of obvious reasons, first of which is Scottie Pippen was certainly not a scrub :laugh2:

But most importantly, MJ was better than Bron so I would expect him to be able to do what Bron could not.

pippen wasn't pippen yet... but your second point was mine...

the playoff excuse making for Lebron by some is simply laughable when you factor in his impact on the rosters.

The honest truth is he never will have the killer instinct of a Jordan which is why he will never be the greatest.

Put Jordan on that Miami roster and they would have won all 4 years

Bostonjorge
05-06-2015, 04:54 PM
I have never once disagreed that his path to the finals wasn't easier in the East but from your tone you are suggesting he wouldn't have had the same success had he played his career in the West. Correct?

I absolutely don't have him anywhere near the top 2 in the All-Time rankings just yet. In terms of peak play he certainly has an argument for top 3 though.

James peak numbers in the east ended up beating who? Kobes peak eliminated Duncan 4 times.

flea
05-06-2015, 05:01 PM
Everyone embark on a slow golf clap for Lebron's glorious conquests over the Brandon Jennings Bucks, Carlos Boozer Bulls, Antawn Jamison Wizards, Elton Brand Sixers, Roy Hibbert's Pacers, and whatever you call that collection of people for the Knicks over the years.

Vinylman
05-06-2015, 05:05 PM
I have never once disagreed that his path to the finals wasn't easier in the East but from your tone you are suggesting he wouldn't have had the same success had he played his career in the West. Correct?

I absolutely don't have him anywhere near the top 2 in the All-Time rankings just yet. In terms of peak play he certainly has an argument for top 3 though.

He definitely would not have had the same playoff success if he had to come out of the West ... it is simple numbers... you have to run the gauntlet to get out of the west as a team... that's not the case in the east... he basically coasted to the ECF each year unless his team had an injury...

Again, that Miami team does not come out of the west all 4 years... in fact i would be surprised if they came out more than once.

Lebron's stats are unreal but that is all they are... stats.... meaningless to me in a GOAT discussion once you get past a certain threshold

FraziersKnicks
05-06-2015, 05:16 PM
James peak numbers in the east ended up beating who? Shaq's peak eliminated Duncan 4 times.

Fixed it for you.

FraziersKnicks
05-06-2015, 05:32 PM
He definitely would not have had the same playoff success if he had to come out of the West ... it is simple numbers... you have to run the gauntlet to get out of the west as a team... that's not the case in the east... he basically coasted to the ECF each year unless his team had an injury...

But your claims are fruitless, LeBron has never struggled against the West.

If his averages against the West were something like 22/5/4 on 42% shooting or something you would have an argument but your claim is based on zero evidence. Just your word. I can sit here all day and say LeBron has statistically actually played slightly better in his career against the West therefore he would still have the same success in the West.


Again, that Miami team does not come out of the west all 4 years... in fact i would be surprised if they came out more than once.

In the 4 LeBron years in Miami, the Heat compiled a 76-32 record against the west which roughly translates as a 71% winning percentage. That is good enough for pretty much 1/2 seed in either conference. They would have still dominated. LeBron would have still put up godly numbers. And they would have still had success. It may have been tougher but there's no reason to think they would've been a much worse team.


Lebron's stats are unreal but that is all they are... stats.... meaningless to me in a GOAT discussion once you get past a certain threshold

Cool. They're meaningless to YOU. They are hugely influential to most other people when discussing the greatest ever. And you speak as if LeBron ONLY has stats. Do you forget he's a 4 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP etc. etc.?

Oh no, the ability of the other players in the NBA is a lot more important than actual achievements a player has :rolleyes:

His championship rings don't have asterisk's next to them because he played in the East. I'm getting bored of people's piss poor excuses they keep trying to find to discredit LeBron, when they have no proof LeBron wouldn't have still had the same success in the West.

If your judgement is truly clouded by these things then your opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

JasonJohnHorn
05-06-2015, 05:33 PM
2009-10 Cavs:

LeBron James
Mo Williams
Delonte West
Shaquille O'Neal
Anderson Varejao
Antawn Jamison
Daniel Gibson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Anthony Parker
JJ Hickson
Jamario Moon

The bolded players were on that horrendous Cavs team of 2010-11 that went 19-63 after going 61-21 with LeBron. So they lost 38 year old Shaq, 35 year old Big Z and Delonte West along with LeBron.

The Cavs lost a total of 8.9 win shares from rotation players leaving in the summer of 2010 (not including LeBron of course). They added 7.2 win shares with new rotation players (Ramon Sessions, Ryan Hollins and Alonzo Gee).

So how else are you gonna account for the 42 game discrepancy in the win column?

I think you forgot to drop the mic when you were done ;-)

Bostonjorge
05-06-2015, 05:50 PM
Fixed it for you.

Sorry buddy your wrong. Kobe led the team every single time. Even in advance stats. No matter how you look at it Kobe had a bigger impact in every series. The series where the Spurs won shaq led the team in the stats department. Shaq leaves LA and Kobe still eliminated Duncan.

I'm not bashing shaq I'm just telling history and fact. If I'm wrong about Kobe leading the team then someone explain to me how shaq out played Kobe. When Kobe scored more while being more efficient. Led the team in assist and stays on the floor in the closing mins.

Kobe did all this with no MVP votes.

valade16
05-06-2015, 05:54 PM
Cry me a river. They won 68 games one year.

So… you freely admit they wouldn't have been able to beat any of those teams?


pippen wasn't pippen yet... but your second point was mine...

the playoff excuse making for Lebron by some is simply laughable when you factor in his impact on the rosters.

The honest truth is he never will have the killer instinct of a Jordan which is why he will never be the greatest.

Put Jordan on that Miami roster and they would have won all 4 years

Ok, MJ > Bron. But I think 99% of people will agree with that so what is the point of bringing it up?

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 06:00 PM
well you should collude and make it happen, then after saying you are going to win 7 titles in that city the second you see signs of one your teams big players breaking down, do it again!!

The real beef rises. I get it. It was a pleasure chatting with ya.

Chronz
05-06-2015, 06:02 PM
Those Cavs are far and away the least talented team (outside of its best player) to win 60+ games those 2 years. They wasted some of the best of Brons prime years with the likes of Mo Williams as his best partner. Sure they were deep, but that depth didn't mean **** if 1 man wasn't around.

IKnowHoops
05-06-2015, 06:05 PM
i think you forgot to drop the mic when you were done ;-)

lol

koreancabbage
05-06-2015, 10:08 PM
I think you forgot to drop the mic when you were done ;-)

he forgot the vaseline bc he's gonna be butthurt after reading that.

ewing
05-06-2015, 10:25 PM
So… you freely admit they wouldn't have been able to beat any of those teams?



Ok, MJ > Bron. But I think 99% of people will agree with that so what is the point of bringing it up?

No they could have won. Would they have been a favorite? No. Did he leave a trash team? Obviously not.

ewing
05-06-2015, 10:28 PM
Those Cavs are far and away the least talented team (outside of its best player) to win 60+ games those 2 years. They wasted some of the best of Brons prime years with the likes of Mo Williams as his best partner. Sure they were deep, but that depth didn't mean **** if 1 man wasn't around.

awwww... they wasted LeBron's prime years by not making him a clear cut favorite to win an NBA title

ewing
05-06-2015, 10:34 PM
I think you forgot to drop the mic when you were done ;-)

seriously most teams improve when you take away an MVP caliber player, two solid vet 7 footers, and a lock down defender who can play both guard spots and isn't a liability on offensive.

L8kers4life
05-06-2015, 10:38 PM
Fixed it for you.


You do realize that Kobes teams without Shaq knocked out TD's Spurs as well right and Dirk's Mavs, and KG's Wolves. This whole argument is stupid though, people trying to discredit LeBron based on his conference is kind of silly, he would have won regardless and it has been proven that LeBrons teams did not have as much talent as MJ's Bulls, and Tim Duncans spurs, those 2 had much more help, I believe the article was in SBnation today.

But dont discredit Kobe either, after shaq left and he continued to play for 9 more years Shaq went to the finals exactly once and he had a generational talent in Wade, so lets not make it out to be Shaq's Lakers, it was the Shaq and Kobes lakers not just Shaq's. the fact that after Shaq left the Lakers, the Lakers struggled for 2 years and then started the climb back top the top was pretty unhreard of. Hell before Pau arrived, it was trade Bynum, LO is inconsistent, Ariza was nothing, DFish was a role a player and Smush and Kwame were starters, and they made the climb back to the top in the tough west. People need to lay off LeBron and Kobe, this arguments are stale, its a bunch of people bitter over their favorite player.

Tony_Starks
05-06-2015, 10:57 PM
Everyone embark on a slow golf clap for Lebron's glorious conquests over the Brandon Jennings Bucks, Carlos Boozer Bulls, Antawn Jamison Wizards, Elton Brand Sixers, Roy Hibbert's Pacers, and whatever you call that collection of people for the Knicks over the years.

Man stop playing, you know that was the greatest accomplishment we've ever witnessed. Especially since he was 5 players, coach and GM all in one. Lol

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 11:15 PM
You do realize that Kobes teams without Shaq knocked out TD's Spurs as well right and Dirk's Mavs, and KG's Wolves. This whole argument is stupid though, people trying to discredit LeBron based on his conference is kind of silly, he would have won regardless and it has been proven that LeBrons teams did not have as much talent as MJ's Bulls, and Tim Duncans spurs, those 2 had much more help, I believe the article was in SBnation today.

But dont discredit Kobe either, after shaq left and he continued to play for 9 more years Shaq went to the finals exactly once and he had a generational talent in Wade, so lets not make it out to be Shaq's Lakers, it was the Shaq and Kobes lakers not just Shaq's. the fact that after Shaq left the Lakers, the Lakers struggled for 2 years and then started the climb back top the top was pretty unhreard of. Hell before Pau arrived, it was trade Bynum, LO is inconsistent, Ariza was nothing, DFish was a role a player and Smush and Kwame were starters, and they made the climb back to the top in the tough west. People need to lay off LeBron and Kobe, this arguments are stale, its a bunch of people bitter over their favorite player.

You do realize that the Spurs were a better team last season than pretty much any other season, right? That depth was insane. Kawhi Leonard was also coming into his own. Parker was still a top 5 PG and it doesn't matter what Duncan does. He'll give you 20/10 easy. Then you add in Danny Green and a bunch of guys who can come out of the bench and make an impact, that Spurs team was solid from every level. They blew Miami away and I don't think Miami had an issue with that. Bosh after the series ended said there was no shame in losing to that team. They were just too good.

flea
05-06-2015, 11:18 PM
You do realize that the Spurs were a better team last season than pretty much any other season, right? That depth was insane. Kawhi Leonard was also coming into his own. Parker was still a top 5 PG and it doesn't matter what Duncan does. He'll give you 20/10 easy. Then you add in Danny Green and a bunch of guys who can come out of the bench and make an impact, that Spurs team was solid from every level. They blew Miami away and I don't think Miami had an issue with that. Bosh after the series ended said there was no shame in losing to that team. They were just too good.

Parker hasn't been a top 5 PG since probably 2009.

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 11:19 PM
You do realize that Kobes teams without Shaq knocked out TD's Spurs as well right and Dirk's Mavs, and KG's Wolves. This whole argument is stupid though, people trying to discredit LeBron based on his conference is kind of silly, he would have won regardless and it has been proven that LeBrons teams did not have as much talent as MJ's Bulls, and Tim Duncans spurs, those 2 had much more help, I believe the article was in SBnation today.

But dont discredit Kobe either, after shaq left and he continued to play for 9 more years Shaq went to the finals exactly once and he had a generational talent in Wade, so lets not make it out to be Shaq's Lakers, it was the Shaq and Kobes lakers not just Shaq's. the fact that after Shaq left the Lakers, the Lakers struggled for 2 years and then started the climb back top the top was pretty unhreard of. Hell before Pau arrived, it was trade Bynum, LO is inconsistent, Ariza was nothing, DFish was a role a player and Smush and Kwame were starters, and they made the climb back to the top in the tough west. People need to lay off LeBron and Kobe, this arguments are stale, its a bunch of people bitter over their favorite player.

You make it seem as if Kobe was at Shaq's level.. Shaq during those years outmatched Jordan. There's only one guy I would take over prime Shaq and that would be Jordan. Stop making it out to be as if Kobe was even in Shaq's footsteps.. Your argument of it was Kobe/Shaq's team would have been plausible if it was prime Jordan/prime Shaq on the same team; not Kobe and Shaq.

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 11:24 PM
Parker hasn't been a top 5 PG since probably 2009.

By what standard? He was amazing for them the past two years (before this of course).

flea
05-06-2015, 11:31 PM
By what standard? He was amazing for them the past two years (before this of course).

Use any standard. His best year since 09 was 13, and he was beat in WS that year by George Hill, CP3, Westbrook, Conley, Curry, and Deron Williams. He's a big liability defensively every year, especially since the leg problems materialized in 2012-2013.

Spurs had a great postseason last year, one of the best ever, but I'm not sure they're really in the conversation with great teams of all time in a context other than the playoffs. Hell the 07 version was probably better, and definitely the 99 version was.

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 11:35 PM
Use any standard. His best year since 09 was 13, and he was beat in WS that year by George Hill, CP3, Westbrook, Conley, Curry, and Deron Williams. He's a big liability defensively every year, especially since the leg problems materialized in 2012-2013.

Spurs had a great postseason last year, one of the best ever, but I'm not sure they're really in the conversation with great teams of all time in a context other than the playoffs. Hell the 07 version was probably better, and definitely the 99 version was.

2013 Spurs were the deepest they have ever been. And I really hope you're not implying that Hill>Parker. Deron Williams? You seriously think this guy is better than Parker? Advanced statistics only tell half a story. Parker on the court makes game winning plays.

Chronz
05-06-2015, 11:40 PM
awwww... they wasted LeBron's prime years by not making him a clear cut favorite to win an NBA title

Clear cut? LOL, his best sidekick was MO WILLIAMS

FlashBolt
05-06-2015, 11:44 PM
Clear cut? LOL, his best sidekick was MO WILLIAMS

Where is that guy anyway? (Has changed six teams in 4 years) but was the best support James had during his Cleveland days, LOL!

Hawkeye15
05-07-2015, 12:17 AM
awwww... they wasted LeBron's prime years by not making him a clear cut favorite to win an NBA title

I generally respect you, but are you ****ing serious? His Cleveland rosters were ****.

You claimed you debunked it. Shoot me those debunkers...

flea
05-07-2015, 12:24 AM
His Cleveland rosters weren't great, no. But the 60-win team was solid - and Big Z was a very underrated player for his time because of how good he was defensively. The teams they built in Cleveland around Lebron were based on the presumption that he was an MJ and could carry an offense. Not a bad way to do it but we've seen what works best: the underdized shooting lineup that gives Lebron a variety of options on driving lines.

Not saying they didn't do that in Cleveland to a degree (Big Z and Gooden are 2 of the better shooting bigs before it became in vogue). Just that the idea was to stack the defensive side of the ball, where of course it's going to look like Mo Williams is his 2nd best player. I don't think that was ever actually the case though. Mo Williams is a streaky shooter, a great bench option for instant offense, but he can't and has no intention of defending anything and he's a below average passer.

Tony_Starks
05-07-2015, 12:56 AM
Clear cut? LOL, his best sidekick was MO WILLIAMS

Where is that guy anyway? (Has changed six teams in 4 years) but was the best support James had during his Cleveland days, LOL!

You mean the Mo Williams that killed Rockets in the playoffs last year or the Mo that scored 52 this year?

Oh wait, he can only score with Lebron right? Shrug.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 01:16 AM
His Cleveland rosters weren't great, no. But the 60-win team was solid - and Big Z was a very underrated player for his time because of how good he was defensively. The teams they built in Cleveland around Lebron were based on the presumption that he was an MJ and could carry an offense. Not a bad way to do it but we've seen what works best: the underdized shooting lineup that gives Lebron a variety of options on driving lines.
What you call solid, I call easily the least talented 60 win team of the modern era. MO WILLIAMS was his sole All-Star and it was only after several injuries that the best team in the conference was rewarded a 2nd All-Star. Even MJ had help offensively so I dont see the argument in terms of supporting cast.


Not saying they didn't do that in Cleveland to a degree (Big Z and Gooden are 2 of the better shooting bigs before it became in vogue). Just that the idea was to stack the defensive side of the ball, where of course it's going to look like Mo Williams is his 2nd best player. I don't think that was ever actually the case though. Mo Williams is a streaky shooter, a great bench option for instant offense, but he can't and has no intention of defending anything and he's a below average passer.
Mo wasn't streaky, not unless you're only focusing on how he played in the playoffs.
If you want to argue he wasn't much different from a declining Big-Z, I would agree, that only makes it sadder IMO. But only for a year. After that initial 66 win season or whatever it was, Big-Z fell off a cliff, where only an idiot would claim he superior to Mo. Gooden was OK but are you sure he was so ahead of his time? Would it even compensate for his idiocy defensively and his inability to remember offensive sets?

Chronz
05-07-2015, 01:19 AM
You mean the Mo Williams that killed Rockets in the playoffs last year or the Mo that scored 52 this year?

Oh wait, he can only score with Lebron right? Shrug.

Yes, the Mo Williams who produced at a below average rate in both the playoffs and the regular season.

Oh wait, you think citing isolated incidences mean more than looking at the entire picture huh... lmfao, even T'Wolves fans were happy that chucker was gone.

Seriously, your analysis is like pointing to Jerome James having the best playoff run of his life as justification for his horrendous contract. Sorry bro, Im not as dumb as Zeke.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 01:21 AM
Where is that guy anyway? (Has changed six teams in 4 years) but was the best support James had during his Cleveland days, LOL!

He scored 50 and then got traded, what a stud LMFAO. These guys know nothing but buckets man, they forget buckets when it counts, offensive efficiency and defense.

Tony_Starks
05-07-2015, 01:39 AM
I really don't see why you guys need to completely downplay all his teammates, from role players to hall of famers, while also simultaneously putting his competition on a pedestal. It's just so painfully obvious you want to paint this Lebron single handedly won against all odds scenario, and even when he failed it was because he was placed in impossible no win situations that forced him to go elsewhere for "help." ( twice)

The dude is really great, quit giving his career the Morgan Freeman voiceover.....

FlashBolt
05-07-2015, 01:46 AM
You mean the Mo Williams that killed Rockets in the playoffs last year or the Mo that scored 52 this year?

Oh wait, he can only score with Lebron right? Shrug.

Mo Williams scores 52 and he's all of a sudden a great scorer? LOL. Brandon Jennings is a bum and he scored 55. It's one of those days but if that's your only proof, I rest my case.

Btw, this Mo Williams killed the Rockets last year?

http://i.gyazo.com/61b4b4a1be4135d78742fb9254af39a4.png

LOL.

FlashBolt
05-07-2015, 01:48 AM
I really don't see why you guys need to completely downplay all his teammates, from role players to hall of famers, while also simultaneously putting his competition on a pedestal. It's just so painfully obvious you want to paint this Lebron single handedly won against all odds scenario, and even when he failed it was because he was placed in impossible no win situations that forced him to go elsewhere for "help." ( twice)

The dude is really great, quit giving his career the Morgan Freeman voiceover.....

It's no secret his team was garbage in Cleveland. Were they decent? Yeah, they were. But they certainly wasn't a playoff team without LeBron. They certainly wouldn't have sniffed the NBA Finals nor would they have had any chance of beating the Celtics, Orlando, or Bulls. No one said he won single handily but no one has ever done more with less.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 01:51 AM
I really don't see why you guys need to completely downplay all his teammates, from role players to hall of famers, while also simultaneously putting his competition on a pedestal. It's just so painfully obvious you want to paint this Lebron single handedly won against all odds scenario, and even when he failed it was because he was placed in impossible no win situations that forced him to go elsewhere for "help." ( twice)

The dude is really great, quit giving his career the Morgan Freeman voiceover.....
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO? Plz quote people otherwise Im going to assume you're speaking to me

What are you basing you're insinuations on? What makes you think we are downplaying people instead of accurately contextualizing his support? Do you have any actual comps here, any sort of FACTUAL evidence or just more conjecture?


EDIT: You know Im drunk when Im consistently confusing your and you're

FlashBolt
05-07-2015, 01:54 AM
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO? Plz quote people otherwise Im going to assume you're speaking to me

What are you basing you're insinuations on? What makes you think we are downplaying people instead of accurately contextualizing his support? Do you have any actual comps here, any sort of FACTUAL evidence or just more conjecture?


EDIT: You know Im drunk when Im consistently confusing your and you're

I just don't see what is so hard to understand that his CLE team wasn't worth mentioning. How many of those players became instantly irrelevant as soon as James left? Big Z was the biggest news outside of James and he dipped to Miami as well. Kobe had bad teammates too but it was certainly never 7 years worth of it.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 01:56 AM
It's no secret his team was garbage in Cleveland. Were they decent? Yeah, they were. But they certainly wasn't a playoff team without LeBron. They certainly wouldn't have sniffed the NBA Finals nor would they have had any chance of beating the Celtics, Orlando, or Bulls. No one said he won single handily but no one has ever done more with less.

Yeah Im so sick of this fake critique. NO ONE ever wins ALONE. That doesn't mean everyone has the same amount of support in victory. People really need to drop that fake argument.

Tony_Starks
05-07-2015, 02:13 AM
I really don't see why you guys need to completely downplay all his teammates, from role players to hall of famers, while also simultaneously putting his competition on a pedestal. It's just so painfully obvious you want to paint this Lebron single handedly won against all odds scenario, and even when he failed it was because he was placed in impossible no win situations that forced him to go elsewhere for "help." ( twice)

The dude is really great, quit giving his career the Morgan Freeman voiceover.....

It's no secret his team was garbage in Cleveland. Were they decent? Yeah, they were. But they certainly wasn't a playoff team without LeBron. They certainly wouldn't have sniffed the NBA Finals nor would they have had any chance of beating the Celtics, Orlando, or Bulls. No one said he won single handily but no one has ever done more with less.

If you seriously think one single player, even the greatest player in the game, can make a decent team a 66 win team then there's really nothing I can tell you. Do you know how good a team has to be to win damn near 70 games? Put it in perspective the Heat big 3 won 66 wins. It takes talent.

You guys hit the easy button and focus on names but ignore style of play, fit of role players to superstar, fit of players to system, coaching etc....

That Cleveland team was a beast defensively, far from garbage, and most important it was tailor fit to him.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 02:23 AM
LOL, you didn't quote me but I will argue anyways.


If you seriously think one single player, even the greatest player in the game, can make a decent team a 66 win team then there's really nothing I can tell you. Do you know how good a team has to be to win damn near 70 games? Put it in perspective the Heat big 3 won 66 wins. It takes talent.
I actually think it takes DEPTH to win alot of games in the regular season. It takes more top end support to win in the playoffs where everyone shortens their rotation. Ideally you want some kind of combination of both but the Cavs CLEARLY did not have that.


You guys hit the easy button and focus on names but ignore style of play, fit of role players to superstar, fit of players to system, coaching etc....

Based on wat, that we disagree with you?



That Cleveland team was a beast defensively, far from garbage, and most important it was tailor fit to him.
LOL, he contributed to that defensive standing whether you like to admit it or not. And it was FAR from a tailor fit, unless you think being the ONLY team to not be able to defend Dwight is somehow an advantage for Bron. Seriously, look this **** up, its not that hard. Dwight was defended 1v1 with great success against Philly, Boston, AND LA. The only team he completely dismantled was the Cavs, and that was due to injury/age. A team that defends centers the best in the league all year, only to suffer a DRASTIC dropoff come playoff time, is not built to win around anyone. Its one thing to mention a guy like Pau completely complimenting his team/star, quite another to suggest a mediocre cast like the Cavs back then to bring equal support to his star.

flea
05-07-2015, 02:26 AM
What you call solid, I call easily the least talented 60 win team of the modern era. MO WILLIAMS was his sole All-Star and it was only after several injuries that the best team in the conference was rewarded a 2nd All-Star. Even MJ had help offensively so I dont see the argument in terms of supporting cast.

Mo wasn't streaky, not unless you're only focusing on how he played in the playoffs.
If you want to argue he wasn't much different from a declining Big-Z, I would agree, that only makes it sadder IMO. But only for a year. After that initial 66 win season or whatever it was, Big-Z fell off a cliff, where only an idiot would claim he superior to Mo. Gooden was OK but are you sure he was so ahead of his time? Would it even compensate for his idiocy defensively and his inability to remember offensive sets?

Well that '09 Cavs team had a good amount of very solid role players too. Not denigrating what Lebron did that year at all, but it's not like the team had junk. A declined Ben Wallace (at only 34) was still a good defensive role player, Wally is one of the best shooters of his generation, Delonte was good before he got depressed or w/e. Anderson V/Big Z is a pretty damn good defensive frontcourt with Lebron. They just weren't built for postseason.

I think winning 58 games in the West like this team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html) is at least as impressive. But there were still solid role players on that team too.

And no, I think Gooden is a terrible player all around. He's the posterboy for a big having a J and keeping an NBA job for 10 years (Speights used to be that too but he's actually more than his J now). But he did have his value in his prime as a spacer and a good rebounder.

Chronz
05-07-2015, 02:40 AM
Well that '09 Cavs team had a good amount of very solid role players too. Not denigrating what Lebron did that year at all, but it's not like the team had junk. A declined Ben Wallace (at only 34) was still a good defensive role player,
Agreed, shame he broke his leg before the playoffs. His defense fell off DRASTICALLY after that.


Wally is one of the best shooters of his generation
If only he was in his prime, then he may have been worthy of recognition. Instead he was a joke of a defender by this point and only capable of getting shots off so long as Bron was spoonfeeding him.

,
Delonte was good before he got depressed or w/e.
That happened with the Cavs, sadly. He had 1 good run, right before the Cavs won 60 games.


I think winning 58 games in the West like this team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html) is at least as impressive. But there were still solid role players on that team too.
They won 8 less games and their adjusted differentials dont suggest they were on par with the Cavs. Advanced metrics and Adjusted individual +/- doesn't depict Duncan as being more influential for that team either, like its not even close on the latter. But yea, thats about as close as you can get without mentioning Shaq. Even tho he had Kobe, the Lakers suffered far more without Shaq


And no, I think Gooden is a terrible player all around. He's the posterboy for a big having a J and keeping an NBA job for 10 years (Speights used to be that too but he's actually more than his J now). But he did have his value in his prime as a spacer and a good rebounder.
I used to say this, Gooden was Tmac's best player in Orlando when he was a superstar. For James, he was his 3rd or 4th best player. So its all relative. That said, the fact that we are mentioning Gooden as any sort of asset when even a communal team like the Spurs found no use for him is very telling. Its always sad when Gooden is a major part for your team, which is why I feel for Washington. The guy is not a stretch-4 but teams are playing him that way thus far these playoffs. Am I missing something

Saddletramp
05-07-2015, 03:43 AM
The only thing Mo killed in the playoffs last year was any respect he deserved after he acted like a little ***** towards the end. Just awful. It's funny, Lilliard wanted him back so bad and the Blazers let him go; way to cater to your star. Not like he signed a huge contract, either.

Vinylman
05-07-2015, 08:15 AM
But your claims are fruitless, LeBron has never struggled against the West.

If his averages against the West were something like 22/5/4 on 42% shooting or something you would have an argument but your claim is based on zero evidence. Just your word. I can sit here all day and say LeBron has statistically actually played slightly better in his career against the West therefore he would still have the same success in the West.



In the 4 LeBron years in Miami, the Heat compiled a 76-32 record against the west which roughly translates as a 71% winning percentage. That is good enough for pretty much 1/2 seed in either conference. They would have still dominated. LeBron would have still put up godly numbers. And they would have still had success. It may have been tougher but there's no reason to think they would've been a much worse team.



Cool. They're meaningless to YOU. They are hugely influential to most other people when discussing the greatest ever. And you speak as if LeBron ONLY has stats. Do you forget he's a 4 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP etc. etc.?

Oh no, the ability of the other players in the NBA is a lot more important than actual achievements a player has :rolleyes:

His championship rings don't have asterisk's next to them because he played in the East. I'm getting bored of people's piss poor excuses they keep trying to find to discredit LeBron, when they have no proof LeBron wouldn't have still had the same success in the West.

If your judgement is truly clouded by these things then your opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

I knew the bolded was the argument you were trying to make when I responded the last time... it is a classic bait and switch... I never said that Lebron's stats would have been worse if he played on WC team... I said if you put that Miami team in the west they might have come out of it ONE time because of the sheer volume of talented teams. If you are unable to understand how that would impact his legacy I don't know what else I can say.

And again... individual stats are only important to a certain point when talking about the GOAT... Do Lebron's stats put him in that discussion... sure But his playoff success in the context of the conference he came out of and the rosters he had doesn't even get him close to Jordan.

ewing
05-07-2015, 08:24 AM
His Cleveland rosters weren't great, no. But the 60-win team was solid - and Big Z was a very underrated player for his time because of how good he was defensively. The teams they built in Cleveland around Lebron were based on the presumption that he was an MJ and could carry an offense. Not a bad way to do it but we've seen what works best: the underdized shooting lineup that gives Lebron a variety of options on driving lines.

Not saying they didn't do that in Cleveland to a degree (Big Z and Gooden are 2 of the better shooting bigs before it became in vogue). Just that the idea was to stack the defensive side of the ball, where of course it's going to look like Mo Williams is his 2nd best player. I don't think that was ever actually the case though. Mo Williams is a streaky shooter, a great bench option for instant offense, but he can't and has no intention of defending anything and he's a below average passer.


I disagree. I think we have seen that the Cavs old system was actually the system that maximized LeBron's talents the most so far in his career. The supporting caste just wasn't quite good enough. Most of the time when you have a physically dominate player who can score and pass it makes sense to play ball control and put the ball in his hands to maximize this talents. If are going to go undersized you are usually going to be playing up and down this levels the playing the field.

ewing
05-07-2015, 08:37 AM
Clear cut? LOL, his best sidekick was MO WILLIAMS


they weren't favorites against some teams so his prime was wasted. that is your stance not mind. He was on a solid team, played some great basketball, and was not far from being on a team that could bring it home. That is not playing for the bad team, that is not wasting a talent. Do you not think that Cavs team could have made another jump with one solid acquisition? If not, fine. I am no longer going to entertain the Cavs were the Washington Generals debate.

On a different note, you mention Delonte losing it when he was on the Cavs. Do you mean in his last year their? I think i remember him being very good his first two years there, at least during playoff time, no?

valade16
05-07-2015, 09:03 AM
Let's look at the major roster moves the Cavs made to help LeBron contend:

Allowed Carlos Boozer to leave for Utah
Signed Larry Hughes
Acquired Mo Williams to be his sidekick


Seriously, if I asked you which roster you would rather have minus their best player for every NBA Championship team since LeBron's 2nd year would anyone pick the Cavs over any of those teams? Like a single one?

valade16
05-07-2015, 09:06 AM
they weren't favorites against some teams so his prime was wasted. that is your stance not mind. He was on a solid team, played some great basketball, and was not far from being on a team that could bring it home. That is not playing for the bad team, that is not wasting a talent. Do you not think that Cavs team could have made another jump with one solid acquisition? If not, fine. I am no longer going to entertain the Cavs were the Washington Generals debate.

On a different note, you mention Delonte losing it when he was on the Cavs. Do you mean in his last year their? I think i remember him being very good his first two years there, at least during playoff time, no?

A). Did you ever answer which Finals team from 09 on you thought the Bron Cav's could have beaten?

B). One solid acquisition away from getting over the hump? Look at my post on their major roster moves. They made like 2 good moves and a dozen terrible ones during Bron's tenure there. Asking them to make a solid acquisition is like asking a HS Dropout to pass the bar exam. It's possible, but get real.

FraziersKnicks
05-07-2015, 09:16 AM
I knew the bolded was the argument you were trying to make when I responded the last time... it is a classic bait and switch... I never said that Lebron's stats would have been worse if he played on WC team... I said if you put that Miami team in the west they might have come out of it ONE time because of the sheer volume of talented teams. If you are unable to understand how that would impact his legacy I don't know what else I can say.

I fully understand, but you're putting a players legacy in his teammates hands then. Once again, when discussing a ranking of the all-time INDIVIDUAL players, INDIVIDUAL performance should be prioritised over TEAM success. If an INDIVIDUAL's performance is to the calibre of LeBron's it correlates to TEAM success so they usually go hand in hand.

Yet you still haven't provided me with any reason to agree with you when you're claiming the Heat would've only come out of the West once.


And again... individual stats are only important to a certain point when talking about the GOAT... Do Lebron's stats put him in that discussion... sure But his playoff success in the context of the conference he came out of and the rosters he had doesn't even get him close to Jordan.

Just for the record I have never once said he is close to Jordan in terms of playoff success. No one is. At his peak he was the closest anybody has ever been to Jordan in terms of INDIVIDUAL playing ability. Surely when determining a ranking of INDIVIDUALS that's a lot more important than the quality of team's they played in the playoffs?

If we are going to critique players using your standards then, no player plying his trade in the weak Eastern conference should ever be in discussion as a top 3/5 player then?

Say in a parallel universe a clone of Michael Jordan called Mitchell Gordon gets drafted in 5 years and leads my Knicks to 6 NBA titles and has the exact same ability, athleticism and mentality as MJ whilst putting up the same statistical dominance, yet because he plays in a weaker conference he's not as good as MJ?

You are judging a player based on things out of his control. Criticising someone for the opponent put in front of them is not their fault and shouldn't be held against them.

ewing
05-07-2015, 09:27 AM
A). Did you ever answer which Finals team from 09 on you thought the Bron Cav's could have beaten?

B). One solid acquisition away from getting over the hump? Look at my post on their major roster moves. They made like 2 good moves and a dozen terrible ones during Bron's tenure there. Asking them to make a solid acquisition is like asking a HS Dropout to pass the bar exam. It's possible, but get real.



I think i did respond to you. no they would not have been favorites, yes they could have won. Anyway see this part of the quote to responded to: I am no longer going to entertain the Cavs were the Washington Generals debate. No offensive i just fine it silly.

ewing
05-07-2015, 09:30 AM
Let's look at the major roster moves the Cavs made to help LeBron contend:

Allowed Carlos Boozer to leave for Utah
Signed Larry Hughes
Acquired Mo Williams to be his sidekick


Seriously, if I asked you which roster you would rather have minus their best player for every NBA Championship team since LeBron's 2nd year would anyone pick the Cavs over any of those teams? Like a single one?

no, who cares? he is not entitled to the best supporting caste in the league. I don't understand why people seem to think he is.

valade16
05-07-2015, 09:50 AM
no, who cares? he is not entitled to the best supporting caste in the league. I don't understand why people seem to think he is.

It's not that he is entitled to the best supporting cast, it's that he had the worst of any contender.

Once again, name a team that made the Finals since LeBron's 2nd year in the league who had a worse supporting cast than those Cavs?

You won't (and judging from my previous attempt at asking this question, you can't because you know the answer).

You won't entertain the idea that the Cavs were the Washington Generals because you simply have no more retorts for the sheer volume of points being made against your argument. You have no base left for your argument to stand on. In the face of such overwhelming defeat, I would probably refuse to argue the point too.

M.I.A.
05-07-2015, 09:56 AM
If Lebron doesn't get it together, get Pau Gasol covered and get his team together in a quick hurry his season is going to be history, that's for sure.

:D

ewing
05-07-2015, 10:16 AM
It's not that he is entitled to the best supporting cast, it's that he had the worst of any contender.

Once again, name a team that made the Finals since LeBron's 2nd year in the league who had a worse supporting cast than those Cavs?

You won't (and judging from my previous attempt at asking this question, you can't because you know the answer).

You won't entertain the idea that the Cavs were the Washington Generals because you simply have no more retorts for the sheer volume of points being made against your argument. You have no base left for your argument to stand on. In the face of such overwhelming defeat, I would probably refuse to argue the point too.


hahhahahaha, good one. again, so what? my only statement that you continue to attack was that the Cavs were not "trash". If you think having the worse supporting caste among finals teams makes the them "trash", we are not going to agree on anything. why should I entertaining your question if i see it as having nothing to do with the statement you are challenging? Same thing goes for the "well, without Bron... argument"


Bron bounced on a good team (bad teams don't win 60 games) and colluded to try and stack the deck in his favor when he did. If you respect that, good for you. I will continue root against his spoiled *** in every series he plays.


Now go ahead and post his WS from 09. I'm sure you think it is relevant :)

valade16
05-07-2015, 10:25 AM
hahhahahaha, good one. again, so what? my only statement that you continue to attack was that the Cavs were not "trash". If you think having the worse supporting caste among finals teams makes the them "trash", we are not going to agree on anything. why should I entertaining your question if i see it as having nothing to do with the statement you are challenging? Same thing goes for the "well, without Bron... argument"


Bron bounced on a good team (bad teams don't win 60 games) and colluded to try and stack the deck in his favor when he did. If you respect that, good for you. I will continue root against his spoiled *** in every series he plays.


Now go ahead and post his WS from 09. I'm sure you think it is relevant :)

Ah, I see, this entire argument boils down to semantics. You realize when people say those Cavs teams were "trash" they mean "Trash for a contending team".

Is that the basis of your argument? Seriously? That compared to the NBA overall, the team wasn't trash like say this years Knicks? They were trash for a championship caliber team. LeBron was the only reason they sniffed 60 games. We saw what they did without him.

So yes, he "stacked the deck" and went to a team with more talent. Who cares? That has exactly nothing to do with how good he is. It is certainly more irrelevant than his WS from 09.

Essentially you're saying "I don't think LeBron is that great a basketball player because I think he's a bad man". Yet you have the gaul to accuse me of inserting irrelevant information into this debate? How does what you think of him as a person have anything to do with his on court ability?

ewing
05-07-2015, 10:39 AM
Ah, I see, this entire argument boils down to semantics. You realize when people say those Cavs teams were "trash" they mean "Trash for a contending team".

Is that the basis of your argument? Seriously? That compared to the NBA overall, the team wasn't trash like say this years Knicks? They were trash for a championship caliber team. LeBron was the only reason they sniffed 60 games. We saw what they did without him.

So yes, he "stacked the deck" and went to a team with more talent. Who cares? That has exactly nothing to do with how good he is. It is certainly more irrelevant than his WS from 09.

Essentially you're saying "I don't think LeBron is that great a basketball player because I think he's a bad man". Yet you have the gaul to accuse me of inserting irrelevant information into this debate? How does what you think of him as a person have anything to do with his on court ability?

Yes, they were a good basketball team. Everyone says they were trash like he was Charles Barkley getting a chance with Phx to justify what he did. Its BS. Also, i never said LeBron is not a great basketball player, in fact if you actually read instead of creating a narrative for people who say anything bad about LeBron, i have said over and over and over again that he is a great player.

I said he did not leave a trash team b/c that is BS. I said he might not have been top 5 in MVP voting for 10 consecutive years if he did stay home instead of colluding to try and create a super team. Both of these statements are true. Has he been a top 5 talent over that span? Easily. I don't think he is first the guy to do that though, one of very few, he is the first guy to do that while being on a top team every year- i simply supplied a little context to that accomplishment.

you are wrong, his WS is completely irreverent to any statement i have made.

valade16
05-07-2015, 10:44 AM
Yes, they were a good basketball team. Everyone says they were trash like he was Charles Barkley getting a chance with Phx to justify what he did. Its BS. Also, i never said LeBron is not a great basketball player, in fact if you actually read instead of creating a narrative for people who say anything bad about LeBron, i have said over and over and over again that he is a great player.

I said he did not leave a trash team b/c that is BS. I said he might not have been top 5 in MVP voting for 10 consecutive years if he did stay home instead of colluding to try and create a super team. Both of these statements are true. Has he been a top 5 talent over that span? Easily. He not the first the guy to do that though, he is one of very few, he is the first guy to do that while being on a top team every year- i simply supplied a little context to that accomplishment.

you are wrong, his WS is completely irreverent to any statement i have made.

1st: Pretty bad comparison because Barkley's supporting cast in phoenix was easily better than Bron's in Cleveland. Dan Majerle was better than any of Bron's teammates, let alone Kevin Johnson or Tom Chambers.

2nd: Again, semantics. Once again, can you explain how the team that wasn't "trash" instantly became trash when LeBron left?

mrblisterdundee
05-07-2015, 10:44 AM
In all honesty, LeBron James is still the true MVP. He can still go Godzilla at will and could shut Stephen Curry down if he wanted to.

M.I.A.
05-07-2015, 10:47 AM
In all honesty, LeBron James is still the true MVP. He can still go Godzilla at will and could shut Stephen Curry down if he wanted to.

Unfortunately the NBA isn't about one-on-one. Not at all. MVP is about being the most valuable player in the league because of what you do for your team when compared to what everybody else does for their teams. Curry deserved the award and James didn't.

ewing
05-07-2015, 10:48 AM
1st: Pretty bad comparison because Barkley's supporting cast in phoenix was easily better than Bron's in Cleveland. Dan Majerle was better than any of Bron's teammates, let alone Kevin Johnson or Tom Chambers.

2nd: Again, semantics. Once again, can you explain how the team that wasn't "trash" instantly became trash when LeBron left?

Barkley got a chance in PHX and you just admitted that Bron's team in Clev was not trash in your last post. I am not going to entertain your BS any longer

valade16
05-07-2015, 11:03 AM
Barkley got a chance in PHX and you just admitted that Bron's team in Clev was not trash in your last post. I am not going to entertain your BS any longer

The only one here spewing trash is you. Here is your argument summed up:

"Wah! I don't like LeBron for leaving Cleveland. He is a big meanie".

That is literally the only leg you're standing on at this point. You have been asked to name a contender/finals team that had a worse supporting cast during that time and you refused. You have been asked which of the finals teams you think his Cavs would beat and you refused.

All you've said is his team wasn't trash in the entire context of the NBA. Let me make it clear: as a championship supporting cast, they were trash.

You have provided no factual, empirical, or objective reasoning or evidence to suggest outside of LeBron James that they were anywhere near a quality title contending team. To circle this argument back around to how it got to this tangent:

Hawkeye said the only reason those Cavs teams were good was because of LeBron James (because he makes any team he's on a title contender). You have done absolutely nothing to disprove that notion. Hell, the very argument you're making right now about how they weren't "trash" is because with LeBron they won 60 games. I've never seen someone more thoroughly prove the argument they are attempting to combat.

cmellofan15
05-07-2015, 11:16 AM
I saw earlier that someone said delonte was "very good" lmao. that dude was SERVICEABLE as a starter but very good...?

ewing
05-07-2015, 11:22 AM
The only one here spewing trash is you. Here is your argument summed up:

"Wah! I don't like LeBron for leaving Cleveland. He is a big meanie".

That is literally the only leg you're standing on at this point. You have been asked to name a contender/finals team that had a worse supporting cast during that time and you refused. You have been asked which of the finals teams you think his Cavs would beat and you refused.

All you've said is his team wasn't trash in the entire context of the NBA. Let me make it clear: as a championship supporting cast, they were trash.

You have provided no factual, empirical, or objective reasoning or evidence to suggest outside of LeBron James that they were anywhere near a quality title contending team. To circle this argument back around to how it got to this tangent:

Hawkeye said the only reason those Cavs teams were good was because of LeBron James (because he makes any team he's on a title contender). You have done absolutely nothing to disprove that notion. Hell, the very argument you're making right now about how they weren't "trash" is because with LeBron they won 60 games. I've never seen someone more thoroughly prove the argument they are attempting to combat.


you are challenging something i said by acting like i should disprove something unrelated. Of course if you take LeBron off a team they are not going to be near as good. That's what happens when you take a great player off a team. I have NEVER challenge the fact that he is a great player. I have also said REPEATEDLY that if you respect Bron for bolting on his teammates and having zero loyalty, cool. I don't. The only person in this thread who said anything that challenged the statement i made was that one guy who said you could add Bron to any team in the league and they would be instant contenders. I don't think that is true. i think while he might have been top 10 in MVP voting 10 years in a row if he wasn't a colluding mercenary it is less likely.

Hawkeye15
05-07-2015, 11:26 AM
you are challenging something i said by acting like i should disprove something unrelated. Of course if you take LeBron off a team they are not going to be near as good. That's what happens when you take a great player off a team. I have NEVER challenge the fact that he is a great player. I have also said REPEATEDLY that if you respect Bron for bolting on his teammates and having zero loyalty, cool. I don't. The only person in this thread who said anything that challenged the statement i made was that one guy who said you could add Bron to any team in the league and they would be instant contenders. I don't think that is true. i think while he might have been top 10 in MVP voting 10 years in a row if he wasn't a colluding mercenary it is less likely.

answer this in a business sense.

You work for a corporation. You are very talented at what you do. Over the course of your first number of years there, you realize that corporation will not be able to maximize your talents, nor is it a company that will be an industry leader.

Do you stay? Or do you look to go to a company that has better opportunity for you to maximize your talents, and offer you a better chance at success?

Forget basketball. Answer

ewing
05-07-2015, 11:29 AM
I saw earlier that someone said delonte was "very good" lmao. that dude was SERVICEABLE as a starter but very good...?

i was a big West fan. He was a heck of defender. I don't think he is very good the way Anthony Davis is very good but when his head was screwed on right, he was definitely i guy i would like having on my side

ewing
05-07-2015, 11:35 AM
answer this in a business sense.

You work for a corporation. You are very talented at what you do. Over the course of your first number of years there, you realize that corporation will not be able to maximize your talents, nor is it a company that will be an industry leader.

Do you stay? Or do you look to go to a company that has better opportunity for you to maximize your talents, and offer you a better chance at success?

Forget basketball. Answer


I am not a business. i could leave my job, make more, and have more room for growth as a "professional". I think i could I think i could definitely accomplish this within 6 months if i cared. I have applied to too one position while working at my current job. I applied for it b/c i have a connection to the city it was in, it would have shortened my commute, and i have heard good things- otherwise it would have been a lateral move. Unfortunately, they went with someone internal

Hawkeye15
05-07-2015, 11:41 AM
i could leave my job, make more, and have more room for growth as a "professional". I think i could I think i could definitely accomplish this within 6 months if i cared. I have applied to too one position while working at my current job. I applied for it b/c i have a connection to the city it was in, it would have shortened my commute, and i have heard good things- otherwise it would have been a lateral move. Unfortunately, they went with someone internal


But, you would never hold it against someone for trying to better their career position, if they did so ethically, right?

ewing
05-07-2015, 11:53 AM
But, you would never hold it against someone for trying to better their career position, if they did so ethically, right?


no but i don't think what he did was ethical. I know Stern said they didn't break rules but that doesn't make it ethical. No one denies that Wade called a super team summit. I also think that when your job is a labor of passion and you have a shared goal with a bunch of teammates it is pretty ruthless to bounce o them when you are contending for that goal- LeBron did this twice to better his "career position".

Hawkeye15
05-07-2015, 11:59 AM
no but i don't think what he did was ethical. I know Stern said they didn't break rules but that doesn't make it ethical. No one denies that Wade called a super team summit. I also think that when your job is a labor of passion and you have a shared goal with a bunch of teammates it is pretty ruthless to bounce o them when you are contending for that goal- LeBron did this twice to better his "career position".

we have a fundamental disagreement on the way he has handled his contractual obligations, and his professional choices I guess. Meh

bucketss
05-07-2015, 12:00 PM
James leaving Miami and bosh going down is why Miami missed the playoffs.

go check out miami record before the bosh injury.




Paul George went down and pacers went from the best record in the east two strait years to a bigger joke then Miami with out James. Paul even went on a run when he came back and almost got that joke team in.

they went on huge runs without pg, to the point george contemplated staying out because he thought he would mess up the team chemistry. plus the pacers had more than just george out to start the season.


If George can effect a team this much In the east then I have no dought in my mind that kobe makes the playoffs every single year with deep playoffs runs every single time out east.

depends on the team he has, put prime kobe on the bulls? DUH, put him on the bobcats? nope, now put lebron on the bobcats? instant contenders.

Vinylman
05-07-2015, 12:23 PM
I fully understand, but you're putting a players legacy in his teammates hands then. Once again, when discussing a ranking of the all-time INDIVIDUAL players, INDIVIDUAL performance should be prioritised over TEAM success. If an INDIVIDUAL's performance is to the calibre of LeBron's it correlates to TEAM success so they usually go hand in hand.

Yet you still haven't provided me with any reason to agree with you when you're claiming the Heat would've only come out of the West once.


Just for the record I have never once said he is close to Jordan in terms of playoff success. No one is. At his peak he was the closest anybody has ever been to Jordan in terms of INDIVIDUAL playing ability. Surely when determining a ranking of INDIVIDUALS that's a lot more important than the quality of team's they played in the playoffs?

If we are going to critique players using your standards then, no player plying his trade in the weak Eastern conference should ever be in discussion as a top 3/5 player then?

Say in a parallel universe a clone of Michael Jordan called Mitchell Gordon gets drafted in 5 years and leads my Knicks to 6 NBA titles and has the exact same ability, athleticism and mentality as MJ whilst putting up the same statistical dominance, yet because he plays in a weaker conference he's not as good as MJ?

You are judging a player based on things out of his control. Criticising someone for the opponent put in front of them is not their fault and shouldn't be held against them.

Really?

It should be self evident...

year 1 ... they lost to Dallas
year 2 ... Bosh missed most of 2 series (do you really think they would have won against the west?)
year 3.... Lets give em that one ... although I could still see them not getting through 3 rounds in the west due to the cumulative effect of playing 3 strong teams
year 4 ... they lost to San Antonio


And when you talk about GOAT ... how has Lebron EVER performed better than what was expected? He and his self assembled teams have pretty much underperformed.

FraziersKnicks
05-07-2015, 12:45 PM
Really?

It should be self evident...

year 1 ... they lost to Dallas
year 2 ... Bosh missed most of 2 series (do you really think they would have won against the west?)
year 3.... Lets give em that one ... although I could still see them not getting through 3 rounds in the west due to the cumulative effect of playing 3 strong teams
year 4 ... they lost to San Antonio


And when you talk about GOAT ... how has Lebron EVER performed better than what was expected? He and his self assembled teams have pretty much underperformed.

So you're basing your assumption off one playoff series a season (max. 7 games) as opposed to 100+ games where the Heat compiled a 71% winning record against the West with LeBron?

I'll give you year 1. They were still finding their feet and three superstars were learning how to defer to each other. They also had Carlos Arroyo and a 35 year old Big Z play significant minutes. I don't think they come out the West that year.

Year 2 they absolutely demolished the best team from the West and year 3 they won the NBA title so both of them are obvious answers.

Year 4 they came up against a scorching hot team playing the most polished, incredible team basketball most people have ever witnessed. Before the Spurs got into that unbelievable grove they were taken to 7 games against the 49 win Mavs... If the Heat had played the Spurs before the Finals I think it would've been a much much closer series and they would've made the Finals.

LeBron has under performed? Care to elaborate? Other than the 2010-11 Finals?

He completely performed better than expected in the following two title runs. Everyone thought he would do the same in 2012 and 2013. But what did he do? He had two of the most dominant postseason runs in recent memory and made clutch play after clutch play in the finals. Only people with faith in LeBron believed he could do that. Every single Skip Bayless and LeBron hater on these forums said he would struggle and play like crap again and he outperformed those expectations.

If 4 straight finals appearances and 2 titles is under performing then sign my Knicks up to some under performing classes from LeBron himself please.

Also why is outperforming expectations a new arbitrary achievement in deterring the GOAT? When did MJ perform better than expected?

valade16
05-07-2015, 01:03 PM
i was a big West fan. He was a heck of defender. I don't think he is very good the way Anthony Davis is very good but when his head was screwed on right, he was definitely i guy i would like having on my side

Delonte West was not good. It is telling the only team that paid him more than $1 Mil in any season were those Cavs. If he were good why doesn't anybody want him for anything more than the bare minimum salary for the least amount of minutes possible?

ewing
05-07-2015, 01:13 PM
Delonte West was not good. It is telling the only team that paid him more than $1 Mil in any season were those Cavs. If he were good why doesn't anybody want him for anything more than the bare minimum salary for the least amount of minutes possible?

because he's a bipolar lunatic

ewing
05-07-2015, 01:16 PM
we have a fundamental disagreement on the way he has handled his contractual obligations, and his professional choices I guess. Meh

despite reading to fast you the first one to just say i disagree with you, instead of trying to tell me i'm saying LeBron is that good :cheers:

valade16
05-07-2015, 01:42 PM
because he's a bipolar lunatic

That may be, but if West is one of the best players on your team, you are in trouble.

I have to ask, do you dispute that of all the contenders for the title in that time period the Cavs support for Bron was the worst supporting cast?

Because it seems to me you are arguing (through your statements and evasions) that they weren't that bad although they were probably the worst supporting cast of any contender.

Which isn't a very strong argument for why he should have stayed is it? You can certainly take offense at what he did and how he did it, I certainly don't like how he left, but that isn't the part where we disagree.

We disagree on the idea that the Cavs were somehow supporting Bron with enough talent to eventually win a title. Something pretty much everyone disagrees with you on.

The strongest argument I have heard you present as to why they weren't a terrible supporting cast for a title contender is that they won 60 games with Bron, which as has been pointed out multiple times, isn't very compelling due to the fact that we are contending that James makes teams that good simply by being on them.

Do you have any other evidence that points to them being better than people believe?

ewing
05-07-2015, 02:14 PM
That may be, but if West is one of the best players on your team, you are in trouble.

I have to ask, do you dispute that of all the contenders for the title in that time period the Cavs support for Bron was the worst supporting cast?


Because it seems to me you are arguing (through your statements and evasions) that they weren't that bad although they were probably the worst supporting cast of any contender.

Which isn't a very strong argument for why he should have stayed is it? You can certainly take offense at what he did and how he did it, I certainly don't like how he left, but that isn't the part where we disagree.

We disagree on the idea that the Cavs were somehow supporting Bron with enough talent to eventually win a title. Something pretty much everyone disagrees with you on.

The strongest argument I have heard you present as to why they weren't a terrible supporting cast for a title contender is that they won 60 games with Bron, which as has been pointed out multiple times, isn't very compelling due to the fact that we are contending that James makes teams that good simply by being on them.

Do you have any other evidence that points to them being better than people believe?

you can't be that bad and be a contender. you can't not be in position to potentially win a title if you are a contender. I really don't know why you want to keep going down this road. If you really want my take on those Cavs teams i will give it.

At there best they were a very good defensive team with a lot of heady role players, that mostly played a ball control offensive, which allowed them to have a set defense at all times, while taking advantage of a player in James that always a created a mismatch for them in the 1/2 court.

The team that won 66 games was arguable the best defensive team in the league that year. I don't think you can play defensive by yourself. Tony Allen, LeBron James, or Dennis Rodman have little defensive impact with 4 guys that don't play D. They had not only James but 3 legit bigs that were good defenders. They also had West, who despite whatever your opinion is, was a heck of a defender. Sasha was also super long at a guard spot. That's a nice unit.

I do think they lacked the fire power needed to win it all but i wouldn't put money on Dirk's mav's either and Timmy run has also been brought up here. please don't that as a opportunity to go "but james had even less". I am just saying that were a good team and a team that with the right breaks or one acquisition could have gotten over the hump. If one right non MVP type acquisition makes a you champion, that is not a trash team in my mind.

Hawkeye15
05-07-2015, 02:30 PM
you can't be that bad and be a contender. you can't not be in position to potentially win a title if you are a contender. I really don't know why you want to keep going down this road. If you really want my take on those Cavs teams i will give it.

At there best they were a very good defensive team with a lot of heady role players, that mostly played a ball control offensive, which allowed them to have a set defense at all times, while taking advantage of a player in James that always a created a mismatch for them in the 1/2 court.

The team that won 66 games was arguable the best defensive team in the league that year. I don't think you can play defensive by yourself. Tony Allen, LeBron James, or Dennis Rodman have little defensive impact with 4 guys that don't play D. They had not only James but 3 legit bigs that were good defenders. They also had West, who despite whatever your opinion is, was a heck of a defender. Sasha was also super long at a guard spot. That's a nice unit.

I do think they lacked the fire power needed to win it all but i wouldn't put money on Dirk's mav's either and Timmy run has also been brought up here. please don't that as a opportunity to go "but james had even less". I am just saying that were a good team and a team that with the right breaks or one acquisition could have gotten over the hump. If one right non MVP type acquisition makes a you champion, that is not a trash team in my mind.

Take LeBron away, that teams offense fell to the bottom of the league. In fact it actually did. Without him those back to back 60+ win seasons, I can't imagine that team has the firepower to win 35 games. that floor spacing? Gone. They are going to have to hold teams under 90 ppg to win.

KnicksorBust
05-07-2015, 02:42 PM
answer this in a business sense.

You work for a corporation. You are very talented at what you do. Over the course of your first number of years there, you realize that corporation will not be able to maximize your talents, nor is it a company that will be an industry leader.

Do you stay? Or do you look to go to a company that has better opportunity for you to maximize your talents, and offer you a better chance at success?

Forget basketball. Answer

This is a massive understatement of what was going on in Cleveland. A more appropriate comparison would be if you worked at a company. You were the manager, head of sales, the accountant, the receptionist, and you swept up the place at the end of the day. How many years of being the entire business before it's acceptable to find a better job?

valade16
05-07-2015, 02:42 PM
you can't be that bad and be a contender. you can't not be in position to potentially win a title if you are a contender. I really don't know why you want to keep going down this road. If you really want my take on those Cavs teams i will give it.

At there best they were a very good defensive team with a lot of heady role players, that mostly played a ball control offensive, which allowed them to have a set defense at all times, while taking advantage of a player in James that always a created a mismatch for them in the 1/2 court.

The team that won 66 games was arguable the best defensive team in the league that year. I don't think you can play defensive by yourself. Tony Allen, LeBron James, or Dennis Rodman have little defensive impact with 4 guys that don't play D. They had not only James but 3 legit bigs that were good defenders. They also had West, who despite whatever your opinion is, was a heck of a defender. Sasha was also super long at a guard spot. That's a nice unit.

I do think they lacked the fire power needed to win it all but i wouldn't put money on Dirk's mav's either and Timmy run has also been brought up here. please don't that as a opportunity to go "but james had even less". I am just saying that were a good team and a team that with the right breaks or one acquisition could have gotten over the hump. If one right non MVP type acquisition makes a you champion, that is not a trash team in my mind.

But again, as we've been saying, you can if one of the players on your team was Prime Bron. Heck, your entire analysis of their offense was basically "LeBron creates a mismatch because he's so good". It isn't much of a complementary cast when it's entire strategy boils down to "yeah, that guy is really good" (which is exactly what Mike Brown's offense was).

I mean, consider the guys you are extolling here. Delonte West and Sasha… good players? Sure, I guess. Are they quality players for a championship caliber team? Hardly.

Here's the thing, the only reason one right non-MVP type acquisition would have made them a Champion was because of LeBron James. That's what we've been trying to tell you. LeBron made them in the position where that mattered.

You have the fundamental inability to separate LeBron James and his impact on that team from the rest of the team when determining how good the rest of the team was without LeBron James.

The question remains, if you take LeBron away from that team, how good do you think it would have been?

Mo Williams | Daniel Gibson
Delonte West
Wally Szczerbiak | Sasha Pavlovic
Anderson Varejao | Joe Smith | J.J. Hickson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas | Big Ben

How many games do you think that team wins? That was the team that, with Bron, won 66 games. Do you seriously think that team approaches 66 wins (or even the playoffs) without Bron?

ewing
05-07-2015, 03:29 PM
But again, as we've been saying, you can if one of the players on your team was Prime Bron. Heck, your entire analysis of their offense was basically "LeBron creates a mismatch because he's so good". It isn't much of a complementary cast when it's entire strategy boils down to "yeah, that guy is really good" (which is exactly what Mike Brown's offense was).

I mean, consider the guys you are extolling here. Delonte West and Sasha… good players? Sure, I guess. Are they quality players for a championship caliber team? Hardly.

Here's the thing, the only reason one right non-MVP type acquisition would have made them a Champion was because of LeBron James. That's what we've been trying to tell you. LeBron made them in the position where that mattered.

You have the fundamental inability to separate LeBron James and his impact on that team from the rest of the team when determining how good the rest of the team was without LeBron James.

The question remains, if you take LeBron away from that team, how good do you think it would have been?

Mo Williams | Daniel Gibson
Delonte West
Wally Szczerbiak | Sasha Pavlovic
Anderson Varejao | Joe Smith | J.J. Hickson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas | Big Ben

How many games do you think that team wins? That was the team that, with Bron, won 66 games. Do you seriously think that team approaches 66 wins (or even the playoffs) without Bron?

i think they win 70 without him

ewing
05-07-2015, 03:32 PM
This is a massive understatement of what was going on in Cleveland. A more appropriate comparison would be if you worked at a company. You were the manager, head of sales, the accountant, the receptionist, and you swept up the place at the end of the day. How many years of being the entire business before it's acceptable to find a better job?



Poor LeBron. I think we should a make a documentary to show the masses the kind abuse this man endured. We must learn from history.

Bostonjorge
05-07-2015, 03:34 PM
go check out miami record before the bosh injury.





they went on huge runs without pg, to the point george contemplated staying out because he thought he would mess up the team chemistry. plus the pacers had more than just george out to start the season.



depends on the team he has, put prime kobe on the bulls? DUH, put him on the bobcats? nope, now put lebron on the bobcats? instant contenders.
Still don't change the fact that Paul George had his team in 1st 2 strait years and without him nothing. No playoffs at all where you only need to win about 40% of games to even get in.

Kobe on any team out east gets in the playoffs. Any team out east. No east team is going to stop him. If Jennings gets you in then Kobe gets you in and does damage. If Paul George gets you first seed in the east then there is no dought in my mind that Kobe can't do the same.

jerellh528
05-07-2015, 03:37 PM
Crazy how lebron doesn't win the award and his accomplishements are still celebrated more that curry who actually won yet has less discussion in his thread lol

valade16
05-07-2015, 03:41 PM
i think they win 70 without him

I'll take that as I backed you into a corner to such a degree you can't answer without basically admitting you were wrong :)

ewing
05-07-2015, 03:43 PM
I'll take that as I backed you into a corner to such a degree you can't answer without basically admitting you were wrong :)

yes that is what i have been saying all along, without LeBron the Cavs were a better team. Congrats on this unparalleled victory

valade16
05-07-2015, 03:57 PM
yes that is what i have been saying all along, without LeBron the Cavs were a better team. Congrats on this unparalleled victory

No, what you were saying is his teams weren't that bad without LeBron. Well, that was his team, how good do you think they would have done without LeBron?

M.I.A.
05-07-2015, 03:58 PM
Crazy how lebron doesn't win the award and his accomplishements are still celebrated more that curry who actually won yet has less discussion in his thread lol

Well, Curry is a modest person while Lebron...

FraziersKnicks
05-07-2015, 03:58 PM
Crazy how lebron doesn't win the award and his accomplishements are still celebrated more that curry who actually won yet has less discussion in his thread lol

Because LeBron is a polarising athlete with a ton of people that love/hate him. Curry isn't.

Also 31 different players have won MVP, only 3 have ever had a decade of consecutive top 5 finishes.

M.I.A.
05-07-2015, 03:59 PM
At least Lebron did congratulate Curry. Harden just acted like a butt hurt little kid.