PDA

View Full Version : How was the love armbar not dirty?



More-Than-Most
04-27-2015, 02:14 AM
Serious question How was it not dirty? Some people are saying it isnt while others are blaming love but its pretty friggin dirty...

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/04/26/cleveland-cavaliers-kevin-love-shoulder-injury-game-4-kelly-olynyk


Losing love and Smith is huge and really hurts James chances in the East against the better teams... I cant blame love here but after what tredigs said Jr smith has nobody to blame but himself for costing his team and after rewatching that he should be kicked out of the league but as for the love injury this is beyond blatant and dirty

Tumstock
04-27-2015, 03:06 AM
IT was a dirty play... But Love crying to the media is just ****ing pathetic. Wade did the same thing to rondo a couple of years ago, dislocating his elbow.

TylerSL
04-27-2015, 03:39 AM
It was dirty. Olynk should be fined quite a bit IMO. The injury does put Cleveland in a bad situation because Love will presumably miss the entire 2nd round series with Chicago. Can Cleveland get passed the Bulls with Love out? They will still probably be favored but that is their reality now.

JasonJohnHorn
04-27-2015, 06:33 AM
That is not a basketball play. You don't grab somebody's arm and twist it like that. It's not a basketball play. It's a UFC play. I see no reason why Kelly wouldn't be suspended for several games for that to be honest.

K-Love had his arms extended, as anybody does when they are boxing out for a rebound; that is a basketball play. Grabbing an extended arm, trapping it, and then twisting it is a move reserved for the octagon. It doesn't look at violent as a punch or a shove, but it is just as bad or worse.

ewing
04-27-2015, 08:13 AM
It definitely was not a basketball play. The only defense i can come up for the play was maybe he was only trying to hold him, which is a foul, but its not like you are trying to hurt someone. Its looked pretty bad

lakerfan85
04-27-2015, 09:31 AM
I don't think he did it on purpose.. Guys lock arms or get tangled up all the time when they are going for a rebound.. To me Smith and Perkins actions were dirty and they both should be suspended..

Slug3
04-27-2015, 09:33 AM
The more I watch it the more it looks dirtier. I mean to me it looks like love was holding his arm and when they went after the lose rebound Olynk grabbed and even looks like he kind of pushes down on the arm in maybe an attempt to injure Love.

MonroeFAN
04-27-2015, 09:34 AM
It was only not dirty if you're a Celtics fan.

That's it. It was disgusting.

iam brett favre
04-27-2015, 09:34 AM
If you think he was really able to say to himself, okay, I'm going to dislocate his shoulder here, you need a serious lesson about the human anatomy.

MonroeFAN
04-27-2015, 09:36 AM
Please, tell us, about the, human anatomy professor.

Sportfan
04-27-2015, 09:37 AM
MTM....why do u feel the need to post a thread for every running thought in your head? Your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's keep your topics to the relevant threads already made


Again, I'll post this https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592493646156591106

If KO's shoulder get separated here I wonder what the reaction would be

Not denying that KO deserved a flagrant 2 and an ejection for that play, but people saying it's intentional and he deserves a 5+ game suspension are being ridiculous

MonroeFAN
04-27-2015, 09:39 AM
We get it, Celtic fans don't think it was intentional.

cmellofan15
04-27-2015, 09:45 AM
Hahahha I can't believe people are actually defending Olynk. He blatantly grabbed the shoulder and pushed down on it, there's no way you can cover that up as a basketball play.

HoopsDrive
04-27-2015, 10:16 AM
It was dirty but I don't think he made that play with the intention of dislocating the guy's shoulder. It was very unfortunate because the way it unfolded, it looks like Love's reaction (pulling himself away from Oylnyk while the latter was clamping down) was the cause of the dislocation. It looked like Love wanted to push Olynyk off and in trying to do so, dislocated his shoulder.

Still, Olynyk is definitely to blame here, but the injury to me is more a result of bad luck than intention to harm.

Vee-Rex
04-27-2015, 10:46 AM
MTM....why do u feel the need to post a thread for every running thought in your head? Your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's keep your topics to the relevant threads already made


Again, I'll post this https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592493646156591106

If KO's shoulder get separated here I wonder what the reaction would be

Not denying that KO deserved a flagrant 2 and an ejection for that play, but people saying it's intentional and he deserves a 5+ game suspension are being ridiculous

Olynyk should've been called for a flagrant but he wasn't. Just because Love hooked him at first doesn't mean KO wasn't dirty.

Take a look at this video. Crowder immediately slams into JR in the early seconds and is driving his forearm into his back. Crowder initiated everything and should've been given a foul. That doesn't mean JR's punch wasn't dirty.

http://cdn2.streamable.com/video/22bc7740ec4611e4bb01ed8e3f8df14e.webm

So stop with the stupid Rick Fox link showing Love fouling Olynyk and trying to use that as justification of Olynyk's dirty play.

SoxPatsCeltsBs
04-27-2015, 10:58 AM
Please, tell us, about the, human anatomy professor.

Please, tell me, that, you, took, any, English, class, ever.

Vee-Rex
04-27-2015, 11:01 AM
lol read the comments in the Rick fox link. They're talking circles around Fox. He isn't making much sense.

dalton749
04-27-2015, 11:02 AM
I like kelly, but that was intentional imo

Sactown
04-27-2015, 11:07 AM
I don't think Kelly is the master shoulder dislocater, but regardless he obviously lost his cooI and made a non basketball play

nastynice
04-27-2015, 11:40 AM
I don't know what to think. Its like he and Love were already tangled up and grabbing, and so Kelly just pretty much kept that going, and it ended with love's shoulder dislocating. At the same time, it wasn't really a basketball play, they were just grabbing each other.

I doubt that he was actually trying to hurt him, I think he was just trying to hold him from getting the rebound.

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 11:50 AM
MTM....why do u feel the need to post a thread for every running thought in your head? Your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's keep your topics to the relevant threads already made


Again, I'll post this https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592493646156591106

If KO's shoulder get separated here I wonder what the reaction would be

Not denying that KO deserved a flagrant 2 and an ejection for that play, but people saying it's intentional and he deserves a 5+ game suspension are being ridiculous

Have you read his username?

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 11:53 AM
In any event, it was a dirty, non-basketball play. You're gonna have a hard time arguing otherwise.

Now the real question is whether Olnyk intended on dislocating Love's shoulder. Personally, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. That said, it should have been an ejection immediately and probably a couple game suspension due to what had happened.

Mell413
04-27-2015, 11:59 AM
I didn't see the entire game so I don't know if there was anything going on leading up to it. I haven't heard anything indicating there was. I don't think he was trying to injure him. I don't think he has a track record of this kind of thing either.

nastynice
04-27-2015, 12:04 PM
In any event, it was a dirty, non-basketball play. You're gonna have a hard time arguing otherwise.

Now the real question is whether Olnyk intended on dislocating Love's shoulder. Personally, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. That said, it should have been an ejection immediately and probably a couple game suspension due to what had happened.

yea, but this kinda "dirty non basketball play" happens literally multiple times in every single game. Even dozens of times per game sometimes. Not saying it makes it any better, but just to show that really this is about the result being Loves shoulder getting messed up, or else this kind of thing, pushing, grabbing, locking arms to try and get a rebound, literally every. single. game. this happens.

It sucks to see, of course we all want to see Cleveland at full strength and make a strong push, but who knows, they still have Lebron and Kyrie, and if anything it could possibly make them more dangerous moving forward since those two will have to elevate their game.

Tony_Starks
04-27-2015, 12:05 PM
I heard Olynyk was actually going with the five finger death punch at first but decided instead to use the stop the sweep separator.....

prodigy
04-27-2015, 12:05 PM
I think its worse then what smith did. I know I'm gonna get hit hard for saying that. But Smith backhand punched someone. the results is maybe a small bruise to the cheek. (the injury had nothing to do with Smith.)

Love and the Cavs front court was whooping up on the Celtics all series and olynk got mad. held on way to long and decided to add something extra at the end. bending Love's arm. Watch the MMA I've seen dudes arms snap at the elbow with that move. (by no means am I saying olynk is an MMA fighter or knew of that move lol). Just its a non basketball play and was dirty. Heavy fine and suspended first 10 games next season would be fine by me.

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 12:06 PM
yea, but this kinda "dirty non basketball play" happens literally multiple times in every single game. Even dozens of times per game sometimes. Not saying it makes it any better, but just to show that really this is about the result being Loves shoulder getting messed up, or else this kind of thing, pushing, grabbing, locking arms to try and get a rebound, literally every. single. game. this happens.

It sucks to see, of course we all want to see Cleveland at full strength and make a strong push, but who knows, they still have Lebron and Kyrie, and if anything it could possibly make them more dangerous moving forward since those two will have to elevate their game.

I'm not sure if it happens THAT often. At least during the regular season anyway.

As far as the bolded goes, of course. Result is always a big factor. No different when it comes to sentencing in the real world.

prodigy
04-27-2015, 12:07 PM
yea, but this kinda "dirty non basketball play" happens literally multiple times in every single game. Even dozens of times per game sometimes.

Not true at all. Yes guys getting tangled happens many times. But bending the guys arm in the opposite direction does not. even more so when the ball was already out of reach. no excuse for it.

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 12:11 PM
I think its worse then what smith did. I know I'm gonna get hit hard for saying that. But Smith backhand punched someone. the results is maybe a small bruise to the cheek. (the injury had nothing to do with Smith.)

Well aside from the KO that could have possibly led to a concussion. And the injury has everything to do with Smith. No punch, no torn ACL. It's really not a debate.

And you're assuming that Olnyk intentionally tried to dislocate Love's shoulder. We will never know if that was the case. While it wasn't a basketball play, I still have a hard time seeing that he INTENTIONALLY tried to dislocate Love's shoulder. Just like Smith wasn't intentionally going for Crowder's face nor expecting Crowder to tear his ACL as a result.

Vee-Rex
04-27-2015, 12:18 PM
I've never seen or heard of a 'tangle' end in a dislocated shoulder. The play was a dirty non-basketball play. Was he trying to hurt Love? I don't know, I just know that the Celtics made it known they would play dirty this last game. Let's look at this step by step:

1. Crowder basically tell the media they will play dirty game 4
2. Celtics come out and play dirty with a multitude of plays (I can list them if people wanna know) and even trying to cheat
3. Referees let them get away with most, not even calling fouls on these dirty plays
4. Cavs see the refs aren't doing anything and retaliate with their own dirty plays

Who are the dirty/salty/classless players here? The ones who retaliated, or the ones who were down 0-3 and losing and initiating these dirty plays? Thomas, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk, Turner, and Jerebko all contributed to it. Bradley, Bass, and Zeller didn't get caught up in it.

You can claim injuring Love wasn't intentional (I disagree but we'll never know for sure), but I don't think anyone can claim that wasn't a horribly dirty play.

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 12:28 PM
I've never seen or heard of a 'tangle' end in a dislocated shoulder. The play was a dirty non-basketball play. Was he trying to hurt Love? I don't know, I just know that the Celtics made it known they would play dirty this last game. Let's look at this step by step:

1. Crowder basically tell the media they will play dirty game 4
2. Celtics come out and play dirty with a multitude of plays (I can list them if people wanna know) and even trying to cheat
3. Referees let them get away with most, not even calling fouls on these dirty plays
4. Cavs see the refs aren't doing anything and retaliate with their own dirty plays

Who are the dirty/salty/classless players here? The ones who retaliated, or the ones who were down 0-3 and losing and initiating these dirty plays? Thomas, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk, Turner, and Jerebko all contributed to it. Bradley, Bass, and Zeller didn't get caught up in it.

You can claim injuring Love wasn't intentional (I disagree but we'll never know for sure), but I don't think anyone can claim that wasn't a horribly dirty play.

When did I say otherwise? In fact, the first thing I said is that it WAS a dirty play, he should have been ejection on the spot, and should be suspended for at least a few games.

I also won't pretend that I have an encyclopedic knowledge of every tangle that occurred in the NBA and the percentage of which ended up in a dislocated shoulder.

prodigy
04-27-2015, 12:29 PM
Well aside from the KO that could have possibly led to a concussion. And the injury has everything to do with Smith. No punch, no torn ACL. It's really not a debate.

LMAO! im never messing with JR Smith. He'll punch me so hard in the face I'll tear my ACL lol!


And you're assuming that Olnyk intentionally tried to dislocate Love's shoulder. We will never know if that was the case. While it wasn't a basketball play, I still have a hard time seeing that he INTENTIONALLY tried to dislocate Love's shoulder. Just like Smith wasn't intentionally going for Crowder's face nor expecting Crowder to tear his ACL as a result.

Id rather Love get a concussion then a dislocated Elbow. Because by all accounts he would prob be ok to play next game or game 2. Not poss done for playoffs.

I consider an action from one player to other resulting in injury that is not a basketball play as dirty. I do.

Sportfan
04-27-2015, 12:32 PM
I've never seen or heard of a 'tangle' end in a dislocated shoulder. The play was a dirty non-basketball play. Was he trying to hurt Love? I don't know, I just know that the Celtics made it known they would play dirty this last game. Let's look at this step by step:

1. Crowder basically tell the media they will play dirty game 4
2. Celtics come out and play dirty with a multitude of plays (I can list them if people wanna know) and even trying to cheat
3. Referees let them get away with most, not even calling fouls on these dirty plays
4. Cavs see the refs aren't doing anything and retaliate with their own dirty plays

Who are the dirty/salty/classless players here? The ones who retaliated, or the ones who were down 0-3 and losing and initiating these dirty plays? Thomas, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk, Turner, and Jerebko all contributed to it. Bradley, Bass, and Zeller didn't get caught up in it.

You can claim injuring Love wasn't intentional (I disagree but we'll never know for sure), but I don't think anyone can claim that wasn't a horribly dirty play.

I've also never heard of a box out ending in a punch to the face and a possible ACL tear, so you're gonna have to play both sides on that one.

Love and KO were at least going after a live ball, completely different than the blind hits off the ball by Perk and JR. It's ridiculous your claiming guys like Sullinger, Turner, Jerebko, Thomas who did pretty much nothing as dirty/classless without mentioning either Perk or JR. Take the homer glasses off son, no need for sour grapes, you guys won

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 12:35 PM
LMAO! im never messing with JR Smith. He'll punch me so hard in the face I'll tear my ACL lol!

Yes, the odds of such a thing happening is incredibly small. Unfortunately, in this case it did happen. Crowder was KO'ed and wasn't able to react and properly fall like one usually does. As a result, torn ACL.

I mean it's no different than if you get in a bar fight and punch someone in the face. Usually, it's just a KO or a broken nose. In either case, you're liable for an assault. But you always hear of that one time where someone gets killed as a result of a punch, and then the assailant is charged with manslaughter.




I consider an action from one player to other resulting in injury that is not a basketball play as dirty. I do.

So do I. In fact, I explicitely said that in my second post in this thread.

Vee-Rex
04-27-2015, 12:43 PM
I've also never heard of a box out ending in a punch to the face and a possible ACL tear, so you're gonna have to play both sides on that one.

Love and KO were at least going after a live ball, completely different than the blind hits off the ball by Perk and JR. It's ridiculous your claiming guys like Sullinger, Turner, Jerebko, Thomas who did pretty much nothing as dirty/classless without mentioning either Perk or JR. Take the homer glasses off son, no need for sour grapes, you guys won

Hey I'm saying JR's dirty play was dirty. I'm saying he should be suspended. I'm countering people who are trying to say KO's play wasn't dirty. That's the difference.

All those guys did do things dirty, and Perk + JR were retaliating. That's the difference.

I haven't seen one Cavs fan say JR's play wasn't dirty, but I've seen lots of Lebron haters/Celtics fans say KO's play wasn't dirty. That's the difference.

Man, if I was a Celtics fan I'd just come out and say, "Yeah our players tried to get dirty because we couldn't win by just playing hard and physical. Oh well, on to next year." Talk about homer glasses, the C's fans are just as classless as their players it would seem.

Sportfan
04-27-2015, 12:48 PM
Hey I'm saying JR's dirty play was dirty. I'm saying he should be suspended. I'm countering people who are trying to say KO's play wasn't dirty. That's the difference.

All those guys did do things dirty, and Perk + JR were retaliating. That's the difference.

I haven't seen one Cavs fan say JR's play wasn't dirty, but I've seen lots of Lebron haters/Celtics fans say KO's play wasn't dirty. That's the difference.

Man, if I was a Celtics fan I'd just come out and say, "Yeah our players tried to get dirty because we couldn't win by just playing hard and physical. Oh well, on to next year." Talk about homer glasses, the C's fans are just as classless as their players it would seem.

"Who are the dirty/salty/classless players here? The ones who retaliated, or the ones who were down 0-3 and losing and initiating these dirty plays? Thomas, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk, Turner, and Jerebko all contributed to it. Bradley, Bass, and Zeller didn't get caught up in it."

You literally question if Perk/JR or the entire Celtics team is playing dirty.

THe Celtics went out and played hard. If you think the Celtics playing aggressive on the live ball is "dirty" and "classless" get yourself into a basketball game.

Please list these dirty plays. What, 5 foot 9 IT bodying with Lebron whose a foot taller? Crowder playing phsyical with JR in the post? These aren't "dirty plays".

Scoots
04-27-2015, 12:48 PM
I think it was totally dirty, but I don't think it was done with intent to injure.

prodigy
04-27-2015, 12:48 PM
Yes, the odds of such a thing happening is incredibly small. Unfortunately, in this case it did happen. Crowder was KO'ed and wasn't able to react and properly fall like one usually does. As a result, torn ACL.

I mean it's no different than if you get in a bar fight and punch someone in the face. Usually, it's just a KO or a broken nose. In either case, you're liable for an assault. But you always hear of that one time where someone gets killed as a result of a punch, and then the assailant is charged with manslaughter.




So do I. In fact, I explicitely said that in my second post in this thread.

I just don't see how u blame everything on Cleveland. I openly admit Smith messed up big time. u just don't do that. def not in a blowout against a team that never had a shot.

Great points have been raised against the Celtics. I don't think I ever seen a team play so dirty over a 4 game stretch. I'm in my 20's and don't remember a whole lot about the bad boy days etc... But this is basketball not football. If I wanna see physical play, armbars, punches etc... i'll watch MMA or Hockey lol. I wanna watch basketball.

Refs seem to be getting a free pass. They screwed up this whole series. as much as we all want refs to let things go, this is what happens when they do. Players take matters into their own hands.

nastynice
04-27-2015, 12:48 PM
Not true at all. Yes guys getting tangled happens many times. But bending the guys arm in the opposite direction does not. even more so when the ball was already out of reach. no excuse for it.

I don't think he was bending his arm in the opposite direction, looked like he was trying to hold him back from grabbing the board. Is this for real? do people really think he tried to bend his arm back?

I don't know, I just saw a highlight of it and that's it, I'm not familiar with this player at all, but given the video of the play, it seems pretty straightforward they were tangled up and he was trying to hold him back from getting the ball. All this talk about him trying to put him in a arm bar or put a ufc move on him, sound pretty left field to me

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 12:51 PM
I just don't see how u blame everything on Cleveland. I openly admit Smith messed up big time. u just don't do that. def not in a blowout against a team that never had a shot.

Great points have been raised against the Celtics. I don't think I ever seen a team play so dirty over a 4 game stretch. I'm in my 20's and don't remember a whole lot about the bad boy days etc... But this is basketball not football. If I wanna see physical play, armbars, punches etc... i'll watch MMA or Hockey lol. I wanna watch basketball.

Refs seem to be getting a free pass. They screwed up this whole series. as much as we all want refs to let things go, this is what happens when they do. Players take matters into their own hands.

What do you mean everything? Both Smith and Olnyk deserve to be punished. It's a shame that the punishments will have a greater effect on the Cavs, but that's Smith's fault for not keeping a cooler head.

Like I said though, Olnyk deserves a multiple game suspension.

And totally agree, the officiating was absolute **** and handled it as badly as it could have been handled.

prodigy
04-27-2015, 12:52 PM
wasn't dirty, but I've seen lots of Lebron haters/Celtics fans say KO's play wasn't dirty. That's the difference.

Man, if I was a Celtics fan I'd just come out and say, "Yeah our players tried to get dirty because we couldn't win by just playing hard and physical. Oh well, on to next year." Talk about homer glasses, the C's fans are just as classless as their players it would seem.

You know who I lost respect for? Brad Stevens. I praised the heck outta this guy all season. Then in the playoffs half his team are throwing cheapshots, he's hacking Thompson in the 1st quarter etc... He's young and dumb too.

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 12:54 PM
I don't think he was bending his arm in the opposite direction, looked like he was trying to hold him back from grabbing the board. Is this for real? do people really think he tried to bend his arm back?

I don't know, I just saw a highlight of it and that's it, I'm not familiar with this player at all, but given the video of the play, it seems pretty straightforward they were tangled up and he was trying to hold him back from getting the ball. All this talk about him trying to put him in a arm bar or put a ufc move on him, sound pretty left field to me

Pretty much this. As far as I'm aware, Olnyk has a clean history. I'd be more inclined to believe it was intentional if it was Wade, Artest or Smith who pulled it. I just have a hard time believing that the dislocation was premeditated. But it was still a non-basketball play that ended in a terrible outcome. So punishment is still due.

prodigy
04-27-2015, 01:00 PM
I don't think he was bending his arm in the opposite direction, looked like he was trying to hold him back from grabbing the board. Is this for real? do people really think he tried to bend his arm back?

I don't know, I just saw a highlight of it and that's it, I'm not familiar with this player at all, but given the video of the play, it seems pretty straightforward they were tangled up and he was trying to hold him back from getting the ball. All this talk about him trying to put him in a arm bar or put a ufc move on him, sound pretty left field to me

go away. because clearly you have not read my posts u are making thinks up. No time for that.

prodigy
04-27-2015, 01:04 PM
Pretty much this. As far as I'm aware, Olnyk has a clean history. I'd be more inclined to believe it was intentional if it was Wade, Artest or Smith who pulled it. I just have a hard time believing that the dislocation was premeditated. But it was still a non-basketball play that ended in a terrible outcome. So punishment is still due.

I have a clean record. Does that mean all police officers should let me do whatever I want? lol ok this example is pretty out there, but clean records mean nothing. Ray Allen was suppose to have a clean record then he went Bruce lee on AV's nuts in playoffs years back.

kozelkid
04-27-2015, 01:06 PM
I have a clean record. Does that mean all police officers should let me do whatever I want? lol ok this example is pretty out there, but clean records mean nothing. Ray Allen was suppose to have a clean record then he went Bruce lee on AV's nuts in playoffs years back.
Holy strawman. You do realize one's record has a huge effect on sentencing?

Vee-Rex
04-27-2015, 01:10 PM
"Who are the dirty/salty/classless players here? The ones who retaliated, or the ones who were down 0-3 and losing and initiating these dirty plays? Thomas, Crowder, Sullinger, Olynyk, Turner, and Jerebko all contributed to it. Bradley, Bass, and Zeller didn't get caught up in it."

You literally question if Perk/JR or the entire Celtics team is playing dirty.

THe Celtics went out and played hard. If you think the Celtics playing aggressive on the live ball is "dirty" and "classless" get yourself into a basketball game.

Please list these dirty plays. What, 5 foot 9 IT bodying with Lebron whose a foot taller? Crowder playing phsyical with JR in the post? These aren't "dirty plays".

IT literally pushed Tristan Thompson out of bounds while he was in the air. He didn't try to make a play on the ball. No call was made.

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/02CCF0E2D61204182280126558208_307ead72fa1.1.5.3749 840760110782114.mp4?versionId=VmqrYPWSkd.PhKHzM8QR mJHo4FyOIlBp

Unfortunately I don't have a link to every dirty play. But Jerebko set a pretty dirty Perkin'ish screen, though not quite as bad. Evan Turner brought Mozgov down to his knees by his neck. Sullinger did the same to Bron. Crowder had been driving his forearm into JR all game. IT tried to cheat on the Lebron inbounds play:

https://vine.co/v/eWgZtTdQEzp

All the Cavs did was: Perkins being Perkins, dirty screen. JR being JR, dirty hit on Crowder. That's it... two plays that were done because the refs were allowing the C's dirty plays, so they retaliated.

Lol C's came to play dirty and that's it... shouldn't be this big of a discussion but unfortunately it is.

MassoDio
04-27-2015, 01:18 PM
Let me start by explaining my interpretation of "dirty".

To me, the intent of the individual directly corresponds to whether or not a player/play is dirty. So I just can't get on board with those who are saying, "I don't think he did it intentionally, but it was a dirty play." I can't separate the two personally.

After watching all the angles I could find of this play, I don't believe KO was intentionally trying to HURT Love. I believe he was frustrated, and doing everything he could to keep love from getting the ball. I don't believe for one second that he was intentionally trying to HURT Kevin Love.

That being said, I don't believe that this was a "dirty" play.

I think this was a really unfortunate, stupid play, with the worst possible end result. I mean, I can call it a non-basketball play at worst, which is still bad enough to warrant a multi-game suspension to start next season. The play DID start as a basketball play, as locking arms and tussling for a loose ball is absolutely a basketball play. It unfortunately turned into a frustration play, which led to the worst-case scenario.

There is a difference between dirty basketball and chippy basketball. The difference lies in the intention. I believe this was a chippy game.

I know a lot of people will disagree, and that is fine, I just feel "dirty" implies something wholly different than what happened in that play.

2-ONE-5
04-27-2015, 01:18 PM
he was trying to prevent Love from getting the board, thats his job in that situation. He wasnt trying to hurt him, that **** happens all the time just not always on national tv and so obvious in front of a camera

slashsnake
04-27-2015, 01:45 PM
Let me start by explaining my interpretation of "dirty".

To me, the intent of the individual directly corresponds to whether or not a player/play is dirty. So I just can't get on board with those who are saying, "I don't think he did it intentionally, but it was a dirty play." I can't separate the two personally.

After watching all the angles I could find of this play, I don't believe KO was intentionally trying to HURT Love. I believe he was frustrated, and doing everything he could to keep love from getting the ball. I don't believe for one second that he was intentionally trying to HURT Kevin Love.

That being said, I don't believe that this was a "dirty" play.

I think this was a really unfortunate, stupid play, with the worst possible end result. I mean, I can call it a non-basketball play at worst, which is still bad enough to warrant a multi-game suspension to start next season. The play DID start as a basketball play, as locking arms and tussling for a loose ball is absolutely a basketball play. It unfortunately turned into a frustration play, which led to the worst-case scenario.

There is a difference between dirty basketball and chippy basketball. The difference lies in the intention. I believe this was a chippy game.

I know a lot of people will disagree, and that is fine, I just feel "dirty" implies something wholly different than what happened in that play.

Have to agree there... Reckless play, sure, but dirty? I am not so sure on that end of it, yeah, he grabbed and pulled and it was an intentional foul, but I think his only concern was Love had a clear track to the ball and he didn't want that to happen and grabbed him. I don't think he grabbed him trying for some crazy arm bar move that he would know would dislocate it or hurt him.

If I saw that play and Love didn't get hurt on it, I wouldn't think twice of it. I think a lot of people are blaming the reaction (the injury) moreso than the action (the foul).

nastynice
04-27-2015, 02:33 PM
Let me start by explaining my interpretation of "dirty".

To me, the intent of the individual directly corresponds to whether or not a player/play is dirty. So I just can't get on board with those who are saying, "I don't think he did it intentionally, but it was a dirty play." I can't separate the two personally.

After watching all the angles I could find of this play, I don't believe KO was intentionally trying to HURT Love. I believe he was frustrated, and doing everything he could to keep love from getting the ball. I don't believe for one second that he was intentionally trying to HURT Kevin Love.

That being said, I don't believe that this was a "dirty" play.

I think this was a really unfortunate, stupid play, with the worst possible end result. I mean, I can call it a non-basketball play at worst, which is still bad enough to warrant a multi-game suspension to start next season. The play DID start as a basketball play, as locking arms and tussling for a loose ball is absolutely a basketball play. It unfortunately turned into a frustration play, which led to the worst-case scenario.

There is a difference between dirty basketball and chippy basketball. The difference lies in the intention. I believe this was a chippy game.

I know a lot of people will disagree, and that is fine, I just feel "dirty" implies something wholly different than what happened in that play.

best post.

yea, I was thinking the same thing about people saying it wasn't intentional, but it was dirty. Doesn't make sense. Its either one or the other, not both.

To me, a dirty play would be something like putting your legs under a jump shooter, because you KNOW you're putting that player at risk. In this case, dude just grabbed love and tried to hold him back from the ball, there's no reason for it to run through his head that he might dislocate his shoulder, it was just a very unlikely and unfortunate result of what happened, but nothing one would predict as being a likely outcome.

Like on screens and picks, people grab jerseys all the time, now if someone grabbed another players jersey to slow them down, and that guy was off balance in such a way that the grab drops him and he lands awkwardly and injures something, you can't say it was a dirty play, cuz there's no reason to believe the defender tried to harm the other player.

Slug3
04-27-2015, 02:34 PM
MTM....why do u feel the need to post a thread for every running thought in your head? Your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's keep your topics to the relevant threads already made


Again, I'll post this https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592493646156591106

If KO's shoulder get separated here I wonder what the reaction would be

Not denying that KO deserved a flagrant 2 and an ejection for that play, but people saying it's intentional and he deserves a 5+ game suspension are being ridiculous

if KO would have just been grabbing his arm or holding it then I can agree with what you said. But when you watch it you see if yanks and pulls it down in a way to put force into what he did.

Slug3
04-27-2015, 02:35 PM
IT literally pushed Tristan Thompson out of bounds while he was in the air. He didn't try to make a play on the ball. No call was made.

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/02CCF0E2D61204182280126558208_307ead72fa1.1.5.3749 840760110782114.mp4?versionId=VmqrYPWSkd.PhKHzM8QR mJHo4FyOIlBp

Unfortunately I don't have a link to every dirty play. But Jerebko set a pretty dirty Perkin'ish screen, though not quite as bad. Evan Turner brought Mozgov down to his knees by his neck. Sullinger did the same to Bron. Crowder had been driving his forearm into JR all game. IT tried to cheat on the Lebron inbounds play:

https://vine.co/v/eWgZtTdQEzp

All the Cavs did was: Perkins being Perkins, dirty screen. JR being JR, dirty hit on Crowder. That's it... two plays that were done because the refs were allowing the C's dirty plays, so they retaliated.

Lol C's came to play dirty and that's it... shouldn't be this big of a discussion but unfortunately it is.

I think its safe to say the refs did a bad job of getting control back into this game.

MonroeFAN
04-27-2015, 03:38 PM
Please, tell me, that, you, took, any, English, class, ever.

Wow, thick headed much? Look at the post I was quoting brainiac.

What an epic fail.

Byronicle
04-27-2015, 03:53 PM
I remember one time I was sprinting, and the motion of my arm alone had dislocated my shoulder.

Does anyone realize how easy it can be to dislocate it?

Do I think it was a dirty move? No, because it was not on purpose. Please, Kevin Love is just complaining. Yeah Olynyk should be fined but I am not going to question this guy's intentions.

Its playoff basketball, it gets physical, there is more wear and tear on the player's bodies and it is more intense. These things happen.

2-ONE-5
04-27-2015, 04:16 PM
maybe Love should go back to a non playoff team if he cant handle the physicality of playoff teams fighting for their lives.

More-Than-Most
04-27-2015, 04:27 PM
MTM....why do u feel the need to post a thread for every running thought in your head? Your opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's keep your topics to the relevant threads already made


Again, I'll post this https://twitter.com/RickFox/status/592493646156591106

If KO's shoulder get separated here I wonder what the reaction would be

Not denying that KO deserved a flagrant 2 and an ejection for that play, but people saying it's intentional and he deserves a 5+ game suspension are being ridiculous

if its thread worthy why shouldn't I post it? should i not post it because its about your team and it makes you angry? Seems like one of my so called thoughts in this thread has gotten a ton of discussion which I am pretty sure is the point of a sports forum... Keep your homer advice to yourself please.

Bostonjorge
04-27-2015, 04:32 PM
It was only a dirty hold to try and get the ball which every single big man in the history of the game have done and still do. Big man always lock arms and refuse to let go of each other. If love arm is not dislocated then it's just another playoff in game hold. Since love's arm did get dislocated now kelly must pay the consequences.

Also Perkins has to be suspend for striking a players neck. Smith 5 games for throwing a punch that led to injurys as well.

Of the three smith was the most dirty and had the worst effect. Crowder, a free agent making less then a mill a year, was raising his stock. Now he might be out for a good period of time and teams might not see him as valuable as they did before the KO punch.

Shareeb_omac2
04-27-2015, 04:32 PM
Love started it. I don't feel bad for him what so ever.

nastynice
04-27-2015, 04:47 PM
Of the three smith was the most dirty and had the worst effect. Crowder, a free agent making less then a mill a year, was raising his stock. Now he might be out for a good period of time and teams might not see him as valuable as they did before the KO punch.

oh wow, I didn't even think of that. That's terrible, that will definitely cost him some money. Man, ****ed up situation, I feel for that guy, that sucks.

MonroeFAN
04-27-2015, 04:50 PM
It was only a dirty hold to try and get the ball which every single big man in the history of the game have done and still do. Big man always lock arms and refuse to let go of each other. If love arm is not dislocated then it's just another playoff in game hold. Since love's arm did get dislocated now kelly must pay the consequences.

Also Perkins has to be suspend for striking a players neck. Smith 5 games for throwing a punch that led to injurys as well.

Of the three smith was the most dirty and had the worst effect. Crowder, a free agent making less then a mill a year, was raising his stock. Now he might be out for a good period of time and teams might not see him as valuable as they did before the KO punch.

Jae Crowder's offensive game consists entirely of pushing off and getting away with it. He's as valuable as the refs allow him to be.

JasonJohnHorn
04-27-2015, 04:52 PM
If the intent wasn't to hurt Love, then what WAS the intent of trapping his arm and twisting? It's not like they were tangled up and fell or something, Kelly trapped the arm, locked it, and twisted it. I'm not sure what other possible purpose there could be to a play like that.

I get when a guy is angry and shoves somebody, or punches somebody; they are trying to hurt somebody, but not take them out for the season. Punches are stupid plays that can cause serious injuries and shouldn't be allowed, obviously, but a play like this seems overtly intended to take somebody out of the game, the series, and possible the season.

Not fawking cool.

Bostonjorge
04-27-2015, 05:03 PM
Jae Crowder's offensive game consists entirely of pushing off and getting away with it. He's as valuable as the refs allow him to be.
His defesnse is why he's valuable.

MonroeFAN
04-27-2015, 05:04 PM
Yeah he's definitely a top notch defender/energy guy, I won't take that away from him.

Green_Monster
04-27-2015, 06:23 PM
If you think he was really able to say to himself, okay, I'm going to dislocate his shoulder here, you need a serious lesson about the human anatomy.

This.

xnick5757
04-27-2015, 07:03 PM
it was a chippy game

let the kids play

Tony_Starks
04-27-2015, 07:11 PM
it was a chippy game

let the kids play

They're supposed to rebound like gentlemen....

hugepatsfan
04-27-2015, 07:25 PM
If the intent wasn't to hurt Love, then what WAS the intent of trapping his arm and twisting? It's not like they were tangled up and fell or something, Kelly trapped the arm, locked it, and twisted it. I'm not sure what other possible purpose there could be to a play like that.

I get when a guy is angry and shoves somebody, or punches somebody; they are trying to hurt somebody, but not take them out for the season. Punches are stupid plays that can cause serious injuries and shouldn't be allowed, obviously, but a play like this seems overtly intended to take somebody out of the game, the series, and possible the season.

Not fawking cool.

He was trying to stop Love from getting the rebound. Love had better position on the ball so Olynyk tried to pull him to where he couldn't reach the ball. That's a clear loose ball foul but not any sort of "dirty" play. That happens all the time. Olynyk stumbled as he was running and half-tripped which led to a weird angle and unfortunately Love got hurt.

I get what people are saying about it not being a "basketball play" and that's why it's a foul. But the foul was clearly committed in "basketball context" and anyone making it out to be more than that is just being ridiculous IMO.

Andrew32
04-27-2015, 07:41 PM
The more I watch it the more it looks dirtier. I mean to me it looks like love was holding his arm and when they went after the lose rebound Olynk grabbed and even looks like he kind of pushes down on the arm in maybe an attempt to injure Love.

I agree.
While arm locking is fairly normal this did not seem like a normal arm lock gone wrong.
He bent his knees grabbed Loves arm and seemed to pull down on it.
That is not a normal arm lock situation or the normal reaction to get out of an arm lock.

What he did should be highly discouraged by the league because it is dangerous even if he didn't truly mean to hurt Love the way he did.

Even if a defender is trying to hold or foul a player you can't lock and pull on his arm like that just like you couldn't stop a guy by putting him in a headlock and twisting his neck.
It is just a dangerous thing to do regardless of the intent behind it.

FlashBolt
04-27-2015, 09:50 PM
That was a fcking dirty play. What Love did has nothing to do with this. Olynyk locked his arm up and put force into that. People need to watch some UFC or something. That was not a basketball play. It takes a lot of force to do that to someone. Simply locking into someone's arm isn't enough to create that kind of impact. BS on Olynyk's part. And Thomas needs to stfu cause he went 4/17 from the field and shot his team out of the game. Kevin Love plays for a team that has a legitimate chance of winning the title. Your team wasn't even expected to make the playoffs. No **** he's gonna be mad; especially when this is a contract season for him.

FlashBolt
04-27-2015, 09:53 PM
He was trying to stop Love from getting the rebound. Love had better position on the ball so Olynyk tried to pull him to where he couldn't reach the ball. That's a clear loose ball foul but not any sort of "dirty" play. That happens all the time. Olynyk stumbled as he was running and half-tripped which led to a weird angle and unfortunately Love got hurt.

I get what people are saying about it not being a "basketball play" and that's why it's a foul. But the foul was clearly committed in "basketball context" and anyone making it out to be more than that is just being ridiculous IMO.

What the hell did he expect to happen when he pulled his arm? Whether or not he wanted Love to dislocate his shoulder is irrelevant. In no scenario should you be pulling someone's arm like that. That's a dirty play regardless of the result. Stumbled my ***. Not a basketball play, pulling someone's arm when they had clear possession of the ball? That's not dirty to you at all, huh?

FlashBolt
04-27-2015, 09:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ31539Cg04

Start the video at 0:25

Their arms aren't even tangled up. Love was simply boxing out for the rebound and when he was inches away from the ball, Olynyk literally locks his arm up, pulls his body down, and puts force onto that arm. Didn't even notice that their arms weren't tangled until I saw that. Wow, sincerely dirty player. If I'm Love, I would get my lawyer to file a complaint with the NBA. That was a blatant and disturbing act from a player. What a fcking douche.

nastynice
04-27-2015, 11:06 PM
Start the video at 0:25

Their arms aren't even tangled up. Love was simply boxing out for the rebound and when he was inches away from the ball, Olynyk literally locks his arm up, pulls his body down, and puts force onto that arm. Didn't even notice that their arms weren't tangled until I saw that. Wow, sincerely dirty player. If I'm Love, I would get my lawyer to file a complaint with the NBA. That was a blatant and disturbing act from a player. What a fcking douche.

I don't know, I see one guy grabbing another guy in order to try and get the rebound. I get it was a devastating result, but if that shoulder doesn't pop out, this is called a loose ball foul and nobody thinks of it twice. This isn't me justifying it or anything, I have no dog in this fight, but what people are overlooking is that Olynyk did nothing out of the ordinary. Players do that every game, sometimes they get away with it and they get the ball, sometimes they call a foul. Olynyk is using whatever body he has hands on, and trying to hold him down to keep him from getting to the ball, no way he "targeted" the shoulder, at least from what I'm seeing

FlashBolt
04-27-2015, 11:10 PM
I don't know, I see one guy grabbing another guy in order to try and get the rebound. I get it was a devastating result, but if that shoulder doesn't pop out, this is called a loose ball foul and nobody thinks of it twice. This isn't me justifying it or anything, I have no dog in this fight, but what people are overlooking is that Olynyk did nothing out of the ordinary. Players do that every game, sometimes they get away with it and they get the ball, sometimes they call a foul. Olynyk is using whatever body he has hands on, and trying to hold him down to keep him from getting to the ball, no way he "targeted" the shoulder, at least from what I'm seeing

When the hell do players literally lock your arm up initiating contact like that when he clearly had no reason to? It was that early in the game, Love clearly had possession of the ball, and they weren't even tangled up. Regardless of the injury, that is a dirty play. Could you imagine trying to go after a loose ball but someone grabbing and pulling your arm so you can't get to it? Playoff basketball means playing rough, not dirty. There's a huge difference from those two words. Whether or not it was intentional is a completely stupid question as well. How don't you realize you're grabbing someone's arm and exerting force to it. Okay, even if it didn't result in a dislocated shoulder, what makes anyone think that is acceptable?

Scoots
04-28-2015, 12:00 AM
ESPN said Love grabbed Olynyk's arm in a similar manner moments earlier ... I didn't see it but they seemed certain it was a foul, and an aggressive one, but the injury was just unfortunate.

KG2TB
04-28-2015, 12:29 AM
I heard Olynyk was training with Royce Gracie specifically for this exact situation. Royce was baffled that Olynyk was able to dislocate Love's shoulder with basically no force and no true technique to speak of. Olynyk will now retire from basketball and become the next UFC champion. What a prodigy. The guy doesn't even have to try to dislocate shoulders.....he just wills it to fruition. What a badass.

MrfadeawayJB
04-28-2015, 12:36 AM
I don't usually agree with shaq, but what he said makes perfect sense. If love doesn't get hurt on that play, nobody is crying about a dirty play.

KG2TB
04-28-2015, 12:40 AM
I don't usually agree with shaq, but what he said makes perfect sense. If love doesn't get hurt on that play, nobody is crying about a dirty play.

No way bro. That **** was dirty as pigs rolling in mud. Somewhere Royce Gracie and Steven Seagal are talking in awe over Olynyk's otherworldly natural skills and technique. They're both probably jealous of Kelly's ease of execution. The guy's a killer.

IKnowHoops
04-28-2015, 01:03 AM
Crowder was playing just on the wrong side of the border of dirty and physical. Those forearms were vicious to the back of J.R.'s shoulders and neck and were past the point of being physical. I felt very bad for him when it all went down, but I noticed his forearms way before it happened and up until he got laid out. At the end of the day he was trying to bully a smaller man with cheap, dirty, ruff tactics that have no place in basketball, and for doing that repeatedly he got met with a super cheap super dirty tactic. He got what was coming to him if you ask me.

Scoots
04-28-2015, 01:35 AM
No way bro. That **** was dirty as pigs rolling in mud. Somewhere Royce Gracie and Steven Seagal are talking in awe over Olynyk's otherworldly natural skills and technique. They're both probably jealous of Kelly's ease of execution. The guy's a killer.

I really hope the Gracie's wouldn't answer Seagal's calls.

It was dirty, I don't think anybody can argue that it wasn't ... but that doesn't mean it was intent to injure.

KG2TB
04-28-2015, 08:29 AM
I really hope the Gracie's wouldn't answer Seagal's calls.

It was dirty, I don't think anybody can argue that it wasn't ... but that doesn't mean it was intent to injure.

How can it be dirty but not have intent to injur? That doesn't make sense.

And the gracies definitely wouldn't pick up the phone.

BDawk4Prez
04-28-2015, 10:17 AM
He was trying to stop Love from getting the rebound. Love had better position on the ball so Olynyk tried to pull him to where he couldn't reach the ball. That's a clear loose ball foul but not any sort of "dirty" play. That happens all the time. Olynyk stumbled as he was running and half-tripped which led to a weird angle and unfortunately Love got hurt.

I get what people are saying about it not being a "basketball play" and that's why it's a foul. But the foul was clearly committed in "basketball context" and anyone making it out to be more than that is just being ridiculous IMO.

/thread

Love did the exact same thing moments earlier, except, no injury. People are upset over the injury, not the act.

prodigy
04-28-2015, 10:28 AM
Holy strawman. You do realize one's record has a huge effect on sentencing?

Yes but my point is it shouldn't give u a free pass to do something bad.

prodigy
04-28-2015, 10:33 AM
Let me start by explaining my interpretation of "dirty".

To me, the intent of the individual directly corresponds to whether or not a player/play is dirty. So I just can't get on board with those who are saying, "I don't think he did it intentionally, but it was a dirty play." I can't separate the two personally.

After watching all the angles I could find of this play, I don't believe KO was intentionally trying to HURT Love. I believe he was frustrated, and doing everything he could to keep love from getting the ball. I don't believe for one second that he was intentionally trying to HURT Kevin Love.

That being said, I don't believe that this was a "dirty" play.

I think this was a really unfortunate, stupid play, with the worst possible end result. I mean, I can call it a non-basketball play at worst, which is still bad enough to warrant a multi-game suspension to start next season. The play DID start as a basketball play, as locking arms and tussling for a loose ball is absolutely a basketball play. It unfortunately turned into a frustration play, which led to the worst-case scenario.

There is a difference between dirty basketball and chippy basketball. The difference lies in the intention. I believe this was a chippy game.

I know a lot of people will disagree, and that is fine, I just feel "dirty" implies something wholly different than what happened in that play.

Performing a non basketball play out of frustration that causes an injury I def consider dirty sorry. Grabbing a guys arm happens all the time. The weird bending motion by olynk and then pulling was just strange to see.

Vee-Rex
04-28-2015, 12:00 PM
/thread

Love did the exact same thing moments earlier, except, no injury. People are upset over the injury, not the act.

LOL at you people. Clueless.

Only on PSD does someone say:

http://s30.postimg.org/n1ml5v741/olyn_kl.jpg

is the equivalent of:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDiu_6_W8AAt0wM.jpg

In the first image, Love is hooking with one arm. That happens all the time in the NBA. It's a foul, but only one arm is used so that the other can go for the ball.

In the second image, the two arms are locked and yanking. That's a non-basketball/dirty move. He intentionally did that. Did he intend to hurt Love? No one knows. But he did intend to use a dirty/non-basketball move to keep Love away from the ball.

So stop with this "omgz kavin luv did the same ting to kellie olinik jus sekunds earlier!!!!11"

It's nonsensical.

Scoots
04-28-2015, 12:06 PM
How can it be dirty but not have intent to injur? That doesn't make sense.

And the gracies definitely wouldn't pick up the phone.

It's dirty because it's way outside the rules, but intent to injure is a very specific motivation.

I think when Laimbeer would step on opponents feet to keep them from jumping to rebound it was dirty, but he wasn't trying to injure them.

SportsFanatic10
04-28-2015, 12:33 PM
Let me just start by saying that I don't think injury was the intention and I just see it as a common loose ball battle that unfortunately went wrong. I wouldn't say it was that dirty. But with that said, I do find it funny that C's fans are defending their player now which sets a double standard for them from when they were so upset about the play when Wade/Rondo got tangled up. Many are still upset about that, and I don't think you can call one of those instances dirty and one not. Since both players essentially tangled up their opponent to help keep them away from a loose ball.

slashsnake
04-28-2015, 12:37 PM
How can it be dirty but not have intent to injur? That doesn't make sense.

And the gracies definitely wouldn't pick up the phone.

Well it wasn't a basketball play, so you could consider that dirty, I like the term reckless on the play instead. Not intending to injure, but not intending to make a legal play either.

Byronicle
04-28-2015, 12:40 PM
LOL at you people. Clueless.

Only on PSD does someone say:

http://s30.postimg.org/n1ml5v741/olyn_kl.jpg

is the equivalent of:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDiu_6_W8AAt0wM.jpg

In the first image, Love is hooking with one arm. That happens all the time in the NBA. It's a foul, but only one arm is used so that the other can go for the ball.

In the second image, the two arms are locked and yanking. That's a non-basketball/dirty move. He intentionally did that. Did he intend to hurt Love? No one knows. But he did intend to use a dirty/non-basketball move to keep Love away from the ball.

So stop with this "omgz kavin luv did the same ting to kellie olinik jus sekunds earlier!!!!11"

It's nonsensical.

You cannot use a single snapshot of the action to try and prove your point, its called bias. I don't know how many times people can misinterpret a picture. You have to admit there are pictures of yourself out there of the wrong unflattering angle that doesn't tell the viewer the whole story and this is the case.

If you watch the video, looks like Kevin Love hits Olynyk unintentionally in the balls, so Olynyk bent over which is a natural impulse after being nut shot, and protected his nuts with his right arm. As he was bending over and since he was previously locked arms, he dislocated Love's shoulder.

Its playoff basketball. Things heat up because the game becomes more physically demanding on the body. Its the reason why you will see lots of injuries, especially since these guys just played ~82 games previously. You think Kevin Love was going into this series 100% healthy? A guy who what broke his wrist from doing fist push ups??

He's just injure prone, and I feel for him because I am made of glass as well but I wouldn't complain about it either

Vee-Rex
04-28-2015, 12:49 PM
You cannot use a single snapshot of the action to try and prove your point, its called bias. I don't know how many times people can misinterpret a picture. You have to admit there are pictures of yourself out there of the wrong unflattering angle that doesn't tell the viewer the whole story and this is the case.

If you watch the video, looks like Kevin Love hits Olynyk unintentionally in the balls, so Olynyk bent over which is a natural impulse after being nut shot, and protected his nuts with his right arm. As he was bending over and since he was previously locked arms, he dislocated Love's shoulder.

Its playoff basketball. Things heat up because the game becomes more physically demanding on the body. Its the reason why you will see lots of injuries, especially since these guys just played ~82 games previously. You think Kevin Love was going into this series 100% healthy? A guy who what broke his wrist from doing fist push ups??

He's just injure prone, and I feel for him because I am made of glass as well but I wouldn't complain about it either

You're arguing intent to hurt or whether it was dirty or not. I put up the snapshots as a result of someone saying Love did the exact same thing to Olynyk.

No.... he didn't.

One arm vs. two arms. The former is a move used all the time, the latter isn't.

You want to speculate and claim that 'it seems like/looks like' Olynyk was protecting his cubes and use that as a basis to support your argument, but dismiss anyone saying 'it seems like/looks like' Olynyk was making a dirty play???

You're killing your own argument if you take that stance.

KnicksorBust
04-28-2015, 12:51 PM
I don't usually agree with shaq, but what he said makes perfect sense. If love doesn't get hurt on that play, nobody is crying about a dirty play.

I don't see your point? If Love didn't get injured on the play it would have been because Olynyk didn't grab him as hard which would nullify the whole point of what makes it a dirty play. The outcome is exactly what makes it so heinous.

prodigy
04-28-2015, 12:55 PM
I don't see your point? If Love didn't get injured on the play it would have been because Olynyk didn't grab him as hard which would nullify the whole point of what makes it a dirty play. The outcome is exactly what makes it so heinous.

this

Bostonjorge
04-28-2015, 02:10 PM
I don't see your point? If Love didn't get injured on the play it would have been because Olynyk didn't grab him as hard which would nullify the whole point of what makes it a dirty play. The outcome is exactly what makes it so heinous.
Heinous? The guy can't play ball for 1 series. He can still do everything else in his everyday life.

prodigy
04-28-2015, 02:17 PM
Love is out 4-6 weeks and if its not better by then He's going under the knife. not sure what u mean by 1 series lol.

Vee-Rex
04-28-2015, 02:25 PM
Heinous? The guy can't play ball for 1 series. He can still do everything else in his everyday life.

He's out for the playoffs.

It really makes you take things into perspective. Someone plays all year with championship aspirations and get injured right when they're needed most. Sweat, bleed, expend insane amounts of energy, go through ranges of emotions, all for it to be snatched away on one play.

Makes you really feel for Derrick Rose. Glad he's healthy and hopefully he has good health for the rest of his career.

nastynice
04-28-2015, 03:13 PM
hmm, the play just seemed like a normal play gone wrong to me, but now looking at it, it actually mighta been dirty.

Its like, it starts out normal, Olynyk is kinda grabbing and clawing for a rebound, but there does seem to be a specific moment in time where its like he just kinda targets the arm. I'm looking at like right at 30 sec and 43 sec, its like it goes from him just pulling on Love (which I think is fine, I mean its a foul, but nothing dirty about it), but then right at that moments its like he really grabs his arm in a awkward way with BOTH his arms. Its actually the pics a few posts back that got me looking at it again, it actually coulda very well been dirty. I dunno, tough call as to what he was thinking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ31539Cg04

Scoots
04-28-2015, 04:53 PM
I think it's clearly well outside the rules and physical and therefore dirty, but I don't believe there was intent to injure, and I agree that had Love's shoulder not popped with the same actions by Kelly (totally possible) that we would not be having this conversation about Olynyks' foul.

Bostonjorge
04-28-2015, 05:13 PM
Love hasn't been ruled out for nothing but 1 series so far. There is only speculation and there is as much chance of him coming back as there is of him staying out.

Lil Rhody
04-28-2015, 05:22 PM
Not saying it wasn't a bad and dirty play but how come none of the cavs fans said when wade pulled rondo down while going for the ball it wasn't dirty?

Idk sucks for love and the fans. Hopefully everyone can step up on that team. Nows the time to overcome some adversity

Sportfan
04-28-2015, 06:06 PM
if its thread worthy why shouldn't I post it? should i not post it because its about your team and it makes you angry? Seems like one of my so called thoughts in this thread has gotten a ton of discussion which I am pretty sure is the point of a sports forum... Keep your homer advice to yourself please.

There is already discussion on it....

MassoDio
04-28-2015, 07:52 PM
Performing a non basketball play out of frustration that causes an injury I def consider dirty sorry. Grabbing a guys arm happens all the time. The weird bending motion by olynk and then pulling was just strange to see.

To me, dirty assumes pre-meditation. Frustration is not pre-meditated. Sorry.

You may see that motion as strange, but that doesn't make it dirty. Dirty is about intent. You may believe that KO had malicious intent based on what you saw, I do not. I saw a guy trying to pull Love away from the ball. It wasn't a "basketball play", but not being a "basketball play" doesn't equate to dirty.

Simply put, what I see in the video is a guy that got beat on the play, was doing everything he could do to keep Love away from the ball, was losing that battle as well, and tried to yank him away from the ball.

There is nothing malicious to me in that play. In my opinion, you need to have malice in order to be dirty.

Scoots
04-28-2015, 08:23 PM
Love hasn't been ruled out for nothing but 1 series so far. There is only speculation and there is as much chance of him coming back as there is of him staying out.

His GM said he's likely out for the playoffs with a labrum tear. Can't have surgery yet.

IDunknown
04-28-2015, 09:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KioLMMhUaoo

Vee-Rex
04-28-2015, 10:32 PM
Reporter:

"How do you feel about Kelly Olynyk giving you an acute anterior inferior glenohumeral dislocation with the corresponding ligament/labrum tearing and humeral head bone bruising?

some of you:

"Oh he was just being physical with me, no hard feelings. It happens and it was just unfortunate, you know?"

If I was a player in the NBA and heard you say that I'd slap you around all game and make you my ***** when we play you.

If you have any reason to be upset at all about the play then you're self-acknowledging that it was reckless/dirty and you're not ok with it happening again. Any legitimate basketball play would not make you angry if you got injured as a result of it.

/thread

IDunknown
04-28-2015, 10:51 PM
^^^No, Kevin Love is right to be upset it was a dirty play(I did agree with that), but it isn't an uncommon one.

prodigy
04-29-2015, 09:35 AM
To me, dirty assumes pre-meditation. Frustration is not pre-meditated. Sorry.

If ur frustrated that means ur angry pretty much right? You ever get mad and hit something out of frustration? Think that's pretty much what happened here. I don't think Olynyk was sitting on the bench saying "I cant wait to get in and hurt Loves arm". But he got mad went beyond what he should have and got someone hurt. Its dirty. So what move on its over now. I've lost interest lol.


You may see that motion as strange, but that doesn't make it dirty. Dirty is about intent. You may believe that KO had malicious intent based on what you saw, I do not. I saw a guy trying to pull Love away from the ball. It wasn't a "basketball play", but not being a "basketball play" doesn't equate to dirty.

I don't believe there has to be intent for it to be dirty. Like in football, my intent is to hit the player with the ball as hard as I can to get them down. Now if they get hurt that was not my intent. My intent was just to hit them hard.

Sportfan
04-29-2015, 10:20 AM
Reporter:

"How do you feel about Kelly Olynyk giving you an acute anterior inferior glenohumeral dislocation with the corresponding ligament/labrum tearing and humeral head bone bruising?

some of you:

"Oh he was just being physical with me, no hard feelings. It happens and it was just unfortunate, you know?"

If I was a player in the NBA and heard you say that I'd slap you around all game and make you my ***** when we play you.

If you have any reason to be upset at all about the play then you're self-acknowledging that it was reckless/dirty and you're not ok with it happening again. Any legitimate basketball play would not make you angry if you got injured as a result of it.

/thread
This is Kevin Love we're talking about here, he's too soft for that

MassoDio
04-29-2015, 11:03 AM
If ur frustrated that means ur angry pretty much right? You ever get mad and hit something out of frustration? Think that's pretty much what happened here. I don't think Olynyk was sitting on the bench saying "I cant wait to get in and hurt Loves arm". But he got mad went beyond what he should have and got someone hurt. Its dirty. So what move on its over now. I've lost interest lol.

No. Frustration and anger are two different emotions in the human emotion spectrum. One can lead to the other, but they are not the same thing. I have done some things by accident out of being frustrated, that were stupid and reckless, and never at any point in that event was angry. Again, to me, being considered "dirty", not reckless, not stupid, not "non-basketball", but "dirty" requires a mindset or intent on the offending party. Otherwise, it is just unfortunate and stupid.

I get it..you feel it was dirty. I do not. There is nothing you can show me or say to me that will make me feel that that play was dirty, or that KO is a dirty player. To me, it just wasn't.

If I was a fan of Cleveland, I may feel differently. But that is looking at this from a bias point of view. Others may feel it is dirty as well, based on their interpretation of what "dirty" means. It's okay. Contrary to popular belief on this site...we don't all have to agree, see things the same way, or have the same definition of things. In my opinion, and by my definition of "dirty", this was not dirty. Unless KO comes out and admits to some sort of intent to injure, my opinion won't change. I have explained why.




I don't believe there has to be intent for it to be dirty. Like in football, my intent is to hit the player with the ball as hard as I can to get them down. Now if they get hurt that was not my intent. My intent was just to hit them hard.

I whole-heartedly disagree. I believe there absolutely has to be intent in order to consider someone or a play dirty. Otherwise, all stupid plays in sports that lead to injury would be dirty. And that completely distorts the meaning behind "dirty player".

And in football, there is a difference between a guy who accidentally goes high on a player and creates head to head contact and gives a guy a concussion, vs a guy who is routinely disciplined for such actions. One guy was reckless and in being so, caused an injury. The other is dirty. One guy did it on accident, the other seems to have an intent to hit guys that way regardless of injuries caused, or disciplinary actions taken.

Scoots
04-29-2015, 11:06 AM
Olynyk should not have been suspended. It was dirty, but the suspension is an over-reaction by the NBA. Is the new policy that any time one players actions result in an injury to another player the first player is suspended?

If they want games to not get this physical then they need to call the playoffs like they call the regular season. Should be that way anyhow ... whoever decided that refs were going to let so much stuff go in the postseason was flat dumb. Let's get 30 teams of 15 players each accustomed to one style of play then completely change that at the start of the post-season ... yeah that makes sense. Every year tempers run away in the playoffs because the players have been trained to expect one level of physical play and they will be protected by the refs, then suddenly it's left to the players to defend themselves. It's dumb and no other sport I can think of does it to the degree the NBA does.

prodigy
04-29-2015, 12:02 PM
No. Frustration and anger are two different emotions in the human emotion spectrum. One can lead to the other, but they are not the same thing. I have done some things by accident out of being frustrated, that were stupid and reckless, and never at any point in that event was angry. Again, to me, being considered "dirty", not reckless, not stupid, not "non-basketball", but "dirty" requires a mindset or intent on the offending party. Otherwise, it is just unfortunate and stupid.

agree to disagree


I get it..you feel it was dirty. I do not. There is nothing you can show me or say to me that will make me feel that that play was dirty, or that KO is a dirty player. To me, it just wasn't.

Same here but the other way around. Watching a break down of the play and seeing the pictures people have posted Its just not a basketball play. Like I said, I do not believe it was on purpose. But he def wanted to be physical. So where the line ends and begins is up to the person.

prodigy
04-29-2015, 12:10 PM
But then People calls Smiths play dirty. By no means do I think he intended to knock Crowder out of the game (def not trying to tear his ACL lol). Clearly he wanted to send a message to stop slamming into my back and ribs with ur forarms. So he swung.

MassoDio
04-29-2015, 12:32 PM
agree to disagree Fair enough




Same here but the other way around. Watching a break down of the play and seeing the pictures people have posted Its just not a basketball play. Like I said, I do not believe it was on purpose. But he def wanted to be physical. So where the line ends and begins is up to the person.

I agree that he wanted to be physical. I agree that it didn't end as a basketball play, but it most certainly started as one. That is why I believe KO just got frustrated with the play.

I think the hard part here for me is that people have a pretty flippant and lax definition of the term "dirty". That term to me is something you reserve for people that are playing the sport that probably shouldn't be. It is a severely derogatory word in the sports realm, and shouldn't be thrown around because of an accidental injury caused by a stupid frustration foul. The end result was horrible. I am not a Cleveland fan, but I am a Kevin Love fan, and was happy to see him finally in the playoffs. But to me, there was no intent here. And also for me...intent is necessary for someone to be dirty.


But then People calls Smiths play dirty. By no means do I think he intended to knock Crowder out of the game (def not trying to tear his ACL lol). Clearly he wanted to send a message to stop slamming into my back and ribs with ur forarms. So he swung.

I wouldn't call JR's play "dirty" either. It was born out of frustration and was a poor reaction. The only difference here is that there is no gray areas when you throw a punch. Even if it is blindly back handed. But again, I didn't find it to be a dirty play either, regardless of outcome. It was just incredibly stupid, which Smith tends to be.

And for what it is worth, I believe both Smith and KO deserved suspensions too. But warranting a suspension does not equal dirty either.

Vee-Rex
04-29-2015, 02:14 PM
Fair enough





I agree that he wanted to be physical. I agree that it didn't end as a basketball play, but it most certainly started as one. That is why I believe KO just got frustrated with the play.

I think the hard part here for me is that people have a pretty flippant and lax definition of the term "dirty". That term to me is something you reserve for people that are playing the sport that probably shouldn't be. It is a severely derogatory word in the sports realm, and shouldn't be thrown around because of an accidental injury caused by a stupid frustration foul. The end result was horrible. I am not a Cleveland fan, but I am a Kevin Love fan, and was happy to see him finally in the playoffs. But to me, there was no intent here. And also for me...intent is necessary for someone to be dirty.



I wouldn't call JR's play "dirty" either. It was born out of frustration and was a poor reaction. The only difference here is that there is no gray areas when you throw a punch. Even if it is blindly back handed. But again, I didn't find it to be a dirty play either, regardless of outcome. It was just incredibly stupid, which Smith tends to be.

And for what it is worth, I believe both Smith and KO deserved suspensions too. But warranting a suspension does not equal dirty either.

You have a fair viewpoint. It may differ from mine, but at least it isn't full of double standards. Very nice posting.

BDawk4Prez
04-29-2015, 02:52 PM
Not saying it wasn't a bad and dirty play but how come none of the cavs fans said when wade pulled rondo down while going for the ball it wasn't dirty?

Idk sucks for love and the fans. Hopefully everyone can step up on that team. Nows the time to overcome some adversity

Because it doesn't fit their agenda.