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Lionel20
03-24-2015, 11:54 PM
To measure player efficiency and consistency, I used merged the "Alternative Wins Shares" and "Value Over Replacement Player" formulas because the each correlate highest with wins. But AWS in particular tend to underrate defense so I added in a defensive factor based on Defensive Wins Shares and Defensive Rating, and calculated my own Usage Rate formula that factors in more defense among other adjustments. The results are multiplied by Games Played to measure each players win contribution throughout the full season. Here is where the 2014-15 finalist stand:

*Score = Player Value Shares


Name Score
Stephen Curry 16.00
James Harden 15.54
Chris Paul 15.01
Anthony Davis 14.16
Russell Westbrook 12.27
LeBron James 11.90








*I altered the the formula to reflect Win Share per MP instead of GP. Harden/Curry MVP race seems much closer.

Harden leads all players in BB-Ref Win Shares, but it's the same BB-Ref Wins Shares that also claims that Kyrie Irving is having a better all-around season than LeBron. I think my win contribution (well not entirely mine) method is much more accurate in identifying the top performers. In my scoring system Kyrie sits at 9.09 value shares, almost a full point/win below LeBron with about 12 games left in the regular season.

Last years MVP race may have been an easy one to call. But applying this formula to other more contentious MVP races, seems to settle the score for me. (These formulas below are not fully adjusted yet)

1989-90 MVP Race

Name Score
Michael Jordan 18.95
Charles Barkley 16.05
Magic Johnson 15.61


Michael Jordan should have what would be (if the other MVPs are confirmed through my formula) 6 NBA MVPs .. if NBA MVPs are concerned with measuring the leagues best player for that particular season.

2004-05 MVP Race


Name Score
Kevin Garnett 16.47
Amar'e Stoudemire 13.83
Dirk Nowitzki 13.32
Tim Duncan 12.40
Shaquille O'Neal 12.30
Steve Nash 10.76
Allen Iverson 10.32

2005-06 MVP Race


Name Score
Kevin Garnett 14.33
Dirk Nowitzki 13.94
Steve Nash 13.47
Kobe Bryant 13.41
Tim Duncan 12.72
Chauncey Billups 11.74
Allen Iverson 10.52

I know Nash just retired from a great NBA career, but he certainly shouldn't have won back to back MVPs 2004 - 2006. Both MVPs shouldn't been awarded to Garnett.. the best player in those consecutive years. In 2004-05, Nash wasn't even the best player on his team, that would've been Amar'e.

Anyhow, I'll try an continue to update this years MVP race as often as I get the time until the season end.

nastynice
03-25-2015, 12:01 AM
I don't know what any of these stats mean, but what I do know is that Curry has been playing GREAT ball and is currently running the best offense in the league, a top 5 ball handler, passer, and shooter. He has lead his team to significantly the best record in the west, putting up historically good offensive and defensive efficiencies. As good as Harden has been, its real hard to make an argument against Curry. The main thing Harden has over Curry is the fact he's carrying a much bigger load and relied on more by his team, but at the same token that better team Curry has, he is leading them to a +10 game better record than the Rockets. That's a HUGE difference.

Hawkeye15
03-25-2015, 12:31 AM
show us Rose's MVP year please. Just curious

edit: And Iversons

LA_Raiders
03-25-2015, 12:38 AM
Curry and westbrick are the 2 contenders at this moment IMO.

nastynice
03-25-2015, 12:46 AM
Curry and westbrick are the 2 contenders at this moment IMO.

I think Curry and Harden are clearly ahead of the competition, they've been doing it ALL year. Between those two I def feel Curry has the edge, but if anyone other than harden were to win over Curry is be shocked

LakersIn5
03-25-2015, 01:56 AM
Raw stats and eye test is the best barometer

rhino17
03-25-2015, 02:25 AM
Curry and westbrick are the 2 contenders at this moment IMO.

Curry and Harden are the only candidates, not even close. There is absolutely no chance one of those 2 don't win

tredigs
03-25-2015, 02:32 AM
People don't yet quite understand how good Curry is, because stats on "gravity" that a defense perform aren't readily available. But yeah, this kid is way beyond "special", he's potential Top 10 All-Time productive right now. And the Warriors will win the title this season in large part because of that.

nastynice
03-25-2015, 02:54 AM
lol, feelin kinda good huh? I don't blame you, and when our team is clicking they are flat out scary, but still a long way to go.

championship or bust baby!!

More-Than-Most
03-25-2015, 07:54 AM
show us Rose's MVP year please. Just curious

edit: And Iversons

this lol

valade16
03-25-2015, 09:06 AM
show us Rose's MVP year please. Just curious

edit: And Iversons

I feel like people voted Iverson for MVP because there was this sense of "well Shaq will get more by the time it's over". Then Duncan came along, Shaq got lazy and the Lakers dynasty fell apart.

I think the Iverson MVP (and to a lesser extent the Barkley and 1st Malone MVPs) are perfect examples of why you shouldn't take future MVPs for a dominant player like MJ or Shaq (or Bron) for granted and just give them what they deserve.

Lionel20
03-25-2015, 11:57 AM
show us Rose's MVP year please. Just curious

edit: And Iversons

2010-11 MVP RACE results according to player value shares


Name Score
Dwight Howard 15.54
LeBron James 14.33
Chris Paul 12.55
Dwyane Wade 12.22
Derrick Rose 12.05
Kobe Bryant 11.93
Dirk Nowitzki 11.24

Rose should've finished 5th.

Alayla
03-25-2015, 12:22 PM
2010-11 MVP RACE results according to player value shares


Name Score
Dwight Howard 15.54
LeBron James 14.33
Chris Paul 12.55
Dwyane Wade 12.22
Derrick Rose 12.05
Kobe Bryant 11.93
Dirk Nowitzki 11.24

Rose should've finished 5th.

Howard MVP that year def sounds right.

Alayla
03-25-2015, 12:23 PM
People don't yet quite understand how good Curry is, because stats on "gravity" that a defense perform aren't readily available. But yeah, this kid is way beyond "special", he's potential Top 10 All-Time productive right now. And the Warriors will win the title this season in large part because of that.

this.
But still westbrook is playing out of his gourd right now.

KnicksorBust
03-25-2015, 12:25 PM
LeBron should win it.

Lionel20
03-25-2015, 12:35 PM
2000-2001 MVP RACE


Name Score
Shaquille O'Neal 14.02
Tim Duncan 13.31
Kevin Garnett 13.09
Karl Malone 12.10
Tracy McGrady 11.91
Ray Allen 11.86
Vince Carter 11.61
Chris Webber 11.12
Allen Iverson 9.34

Shaq contributed to the equivalent to 14 wins. He should've been MVP this year. Iverson, who won, had an Ast/TOV ratio of 1.37, and shot below 44%. He really shouldn't have been in the conversation. Philly won 56 games that year, Iverson was their best player, but they were a top Defensive and offensive rebounding team as well.

nickdymez
03-25-2015, 12:47 PM
SMH. People wanting to see Iversons advanced stats to see if he "Deserved" MVP that year. Iverson was the heart and soul of that team. He laid his body out and played beyond his physical stature. They dont have a stat for that, which is the reason i dont respect you stat nerds. You take passion out of the game with these made up numbers.

Chronz
03-25-2015, 12:58 PM
SMH. People wanting to see Iversons advanced stats to see if he "Deserved" MVP that year. Iverson was the heart and soul of that team. He laid his body out and played beyond his physical stature. They dont have a stat for that, which is the reason i dont respect you stat nerds. You take passion out of the game with these made up numbers.

Being the heart and soul of a team doesn't differentiate him from any other MVP. They were all hearts and souls of their squad, thats why they were in the MVP discussion to begin with. AI himself would tell you who that award really belonged to.

You dont get extra credit for being a warrior and playing injured if the guy who is better than you, didn't have to. So take all the passion you want, I respect things that win games. Efficiency being the most important.

nickdymez
03-25-2015, 01:02 PM
Being the heart and soul of a team doesn't differentiate him from any other MVP. They were all hearts and souls of their squad, thats why they were in the MVP discussion to begin with. AI himself would tell you who that award really belonged to.

You dont get extra credit for being a warrior and playing injured if the guy who is better than you, didn't have to. So take all the passion you want, I respect things that win games. Efficiency being the most important.

So why did he win the award then?

Chronz
03-25-2015, 01:44 PM
So why did he win the award then?
You tell me.

Lionel20
03-25-2015, 02:07 PM
SMH. People wanting to see Iversons advanced stats to see if he "Deserved" MVP that year. Iverson was the heart and soul of that team. He laid his body out and played beyond his physical stature. They dont have a stat for that, which is the reason i dont respect you stat nerds. You take passion out of the game with these made up numbers.

Here's the 2000-2001 76ers team breakdown by Player Value Shares:

2000-2001 76ers


Player Score
Allen Iverson 9.34
George Lynch 7.03
Aaron McKie 6.79
Tyrone Hill 5.93
Theo Ratliff 4.98
Eric Snow 4.08
Toni Kukoc 3.62
Dikembe Mutombo 3.43
Jumaine Jones 3.66
Kevin Ollie 1.64
Todd MacCulloch 3.21
Rodney Buford 0.69
Matt Geiger 0.80
Vernon Maxwell 0.30
Nazr Mohammed 0.32
Pepe Sanchez 1.36
Raja Bell -0.26
Roshown McLeod -0.03
Anthony Miller -0.03
Team Wins 56.86

With each player below 30 mpg, there is a minutes adjustment for players to AWS, VORP, and Defensive rating. In most cases the total team value shares should convert into total team wins with an exact match or very close.

Many of the 76ers "role players" were likely underrated because they didn't have a high PPG. But the average NBA player scores about 3.5 Player Value Shares per season. McKie and Lynch were above that in 2000-2001.

nickdymez
03-25-2015, 02:11 PM
You tell me.
Because he was the most valuable player on his team I would guess. I don't know. The award is never right and there are always people who get snubbed. It's dumb to even put much weight or credence behind that award. Everyone sees the game different and we all have different criteria on which we judge.

Chronz
03-25-2015, 02:12 PM
Here's the 2000-2001 76ers team breakdown by Player Value Shares:

2000-2001 76ers


Player Score
Allen Iverson 9.34
George Lynch 7.03
Aaron McKie 6.79
Tyrone Hill 5.93
Theo Ratliff 4.98
Eric Snow 4.08
Toni Kukoc 3.62
Dikembe Mutombo 3.43
Jumaine Jones 3.66
Kevin Ollie 1.64
Todd MacCulloch 3.21
Rodney Buford 0.69
Matt Geiger 0.80
Vernon Maxwell 0.30
Nazr Mohammed 0.32
Pepe Sanchez 1.36
Raja Bell -0.26
Roshown McLeod -0.03
Anthony Miller -0.03
Team Wins 56.86

With each player below 30 mpg, there is a minutes adjustment for players to AWS, VORP, and Defensive rating. In most cases the total team value shares should convert into total team wins with an exact match or very close.

Playoffs?

Chronz
03-25-2015, 02:21 PM
Because he was the most valuable player on his team I would guess. I don't know. The award is never right and there are always people who get snubbed. It's dumb to even put much weight or credence behind that award. Everyone sees the game different and we all have different criteria on which we judge.
Sounds like we both agree that there is no exact science. I know you're trying to cover all your bases but we both know that MVP's can be entirely subjective and prone to narrative, bias, voter fatigue etc...

Thats why I dont really care about the MVP itself, more about how many MVP CALIBER seasons you've had. I dont need to see Shaq hoist the MVP when I KNOW that hes the MVP. Its never been more clear than the year I saw AI win the award (only to see AI admit it should have gone to Shaq). Its funny tho, when Steve Nash "stole" the MVP from Shaq, I felt Duncan deserved it. I would have loved to see Shaq get it tho.


Since the 2k era, there have only been a few MVP's I felt were clearly wrong.

AI in 2k1 (belonged to Shaq)
Nash in 05 or 06 I think it was when it belonged to either Shaq or Duncan
Rose when it should've gone to Dwight

The rest were either legit or too close to ***** about. When Kobe won it, I felt KG was the better player who got injured at the wrong time and I felt CP3 did more for his less talented team.

nickdymez
03-25-2015, 02:24 PM
Sounds like we both agree that there is no exact science. I know you're trying to cover all your bases but we both know that MVP's can be entirely subjective and prone to narrative, bias, voter fatigue etc...

Thats why I dont really care about the MVP itself, more about how many MVP CALIBER seasons you've had. I dont need to see Shaq hoist the MVP when I KNOW that hes the MVP. Its never been more clear than the year I saw AI win the award (only to see AI admit it should have gone to Shaq). Its funny tho, when Steve Nash "stole" the MVP from Shaq, I felt Duncan deserved it. I would have loved to see Shaq get it tho.


Since the 2k era, there have only been a few MVP's I felt were clearly wrong.

AI in 2k1 (belonged to Shaq)
Nash in 05 or 06 I think it was when it belonged to either Shaq or Duncan
Rose when it should've gone to Dwight

The rest were either legit or too close to ***** about. When Kobe won it, I felt KG was the better player who got injured at the wrong time and I felt CP3 did more for his less talented team.

I 100% agree with this whole post. MVP is the most overrated award to me as far as a barometer of judging one players greatness as opposed to another. There is no real way to say who the MVP is. "Value" has many different meanings to everyone.

Chronz
03-25-2015, 02:49 PM
I 100% agree with this whole post. MVP is the most overrated award to me as far as a barometer of judging one players greatness as opposed to another. There is no real way to say who the MVP is. "Value" has many different meanings to everyone.

The biggest robberies are when value, in all its forms, point to 1 player. Come up with a meaning, and Im willing to bet I can find a way for that definition to favor the TRUE MVP.

Lionel20
03-25-2015, 04:34 PM
Playoffs?

2000-2001 76ers Playoff Value Shares


Player Score
Dikembe Mutombo 3.04
Allen Iverson 2.51
Aaron McKie 2.02
Eric Snow 1.38
Jumaine Jones 1.22
Tyrone Hill 1.09
George Lynch 0.60
Todd MacCulloch 0.49
Raja Bell 0.43
Matt Geiger 0.02
Kevin Ollie -0.19
Rodney Buford -0.35

chi-townlove1
03-25-2015, 04:42 PM
This is whyy the award is such a joke now just like in the nfl. That is why I like to use the eye test for this specific occurrence. Like the years AI and rose won, to me there was no more important player to their team. That's just how I feel

tredigs
03-26-2015, 12:50 AM
SMH. People wanting to see Iversons advanced stats to see if he "Deserved" MVP that year. Iverson was the heart and soul of that team. He laid his body out and played beyond his physical stature. They dont have a stat for that, which is the reason i dont respect you stat nerds. You take passion out of the game with these made up numbers.

Oh quit crying with your heart and soul BS you hippy weirdo. I want players that win games, period. I'm not voting for Captain Planet here, I want dominance.

nickdymez
03-26-2015, 01:02 AM
Oh quit crying with your heart and soul BS you hippy weirdo. I want players that win games, period. I'm not voting for Captain Planet here, I want dominance.
Ok, we'll his team went to the finals. Shut up.

tredigs
03-26-2015, 01:07 AM
Ok, we'll his team went to the finals. Shut up.

Lmfao yes -- AND they beat the legendary 52-win (!) '01 Bucks for the right to the title (to be slaughtered by LA).

The East: Where Iverson's Sixers in the Finals happened.

#legend

nickdymez
03-26-2015, 01:08 AM
Lmfao yes -- AND they beat the legendary 52 win '01 Bucks for the right to the title (to be slaughtered by LA).

The East: Where Iverson's Sixers in the Finals happened.

#legend
The east, where LeBron lives. Shut the **** up and go to sleep little boy.

tredigs
03-26-2015, 01:09 AM
I love when absolutely clueless basketball fans reside themselves to thinking they're* geniuses. Bet on games, kid. Let's see how that turns out?

LA4life24/8
03-26-2015, 04:51 AM
I'm not quite sure of the advanced stats being used here but I think this year's race should go curry-harden-westbrook-lebron-davis, I think these players have meant more to their respective teams than any other players and have the stats carrying their play as well

Edit: curry or harden could win and both are very deserving this year

nickdymez
03-26-2015, 01:01 PM
I love when absolutely clueless basketball fans reside themselves to thinking they're* geniuses. Bet on games, kid. Let's see how that turns out?

Little boy, ive been betting on all sports for the last 10 years. And I do decent. just stop little guy

Lionel20
03-27-2015, 08:42 AM
I had a small equation I had to fix from earlier that would explain the change in 2005-06 MVP.

MVP in NBA/ABA each year according to Player Value Shares.


Year Name Score
2015 Stephen Curry 12.63
2014 Kevin Durant 14.36
2013 LeBron James 14.48
2012 LeBron James 10.75
2011 Dwight Howard 12.94
2010 LeBron James 14.33
2009 LeBron James 15.54
2008 Chris Paul 13.36
2007 Tim Duncan 12.25
2006 Steve Nash 11.92
2005 Kevin Garnett 13.74
2004 Kevin Garnett 14.89
2003 Kevin Garnett 13.06
2002 Tim Duncan 12.93
2001 Shaquille O'Neal 11.78
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 14.51
1999 Shaquille O'Neal 7.50
1998 Karl Malone 12.28
1997 Karl Malone 13.85
1996 David Robinson 15.46
1995 David Robinson 14.88
1994 David Robinson 14.76
1993 Hakeem Olajuwon 15.64
1992 Michael Jordan 14.03
1991 Michael Jordan 16.34
1990 Michael Jordan 16.14
1989 Michael Jordan 15.96
1988 Michael Jordan 16.24
1987 Magic Johnson 14.16
1986 Larry Bird 14.09
1985 Larry Bird 13.82
1984 Larry Bird 12.09
1983 Moses Malone 12.56
1982 Julius Erving 13.48
1981 Julius Erving 13.32
1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 13.44
1979 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 13.15
1978 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 10.94
1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15.78
1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15.53
1975 Bob McAdoo 14.04
1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 14.24
1973 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15.09
1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 17.25
1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 16.94
1970 Willis Reed 12.26
1969 Wilt Chamberlain 13.04
1968 Wilt Chamberlain 17.02
1967 Wilt Chamberlain 17.17
1966 Wilt Chamberlain 17.19
1965 Bill Russell 14.72
1964 Wilt Chamberlain 18.64
1963 Wilt Chamberlain 18.16
1962 Wilt Chamberlain 18.93
1961 Wilt Chamberlain 16.28
1960 Wilt Chamberlain 14.97

valade16
03-27-2015, 08:53 AM
You tell me.

I think AI's narrative won over voters. I also think there was a sense of well Shaq is clearly going to get more MVPs down the line.

Which is why MVP voters should never take dominance for granted. Shaq should have won 3 or so MVPs in his time. Him only getting one is flat out astounding.

valade16
03-27-2015, 08:59 AM
I had a small equation I had to fix from earlier that would explain the change in 2005-06 MVP.

MVP in NBA/ABA each year according to Player Value Shares.


Year Name Score
2015 Stephen Curry 15.19*
2014 Kevin Durant 17.24
2013 LeBron James 17.38
2012 LeBron James 12.90
2011 Dwight Howard 15.53
2010 LeBron James 17.20
2009 LeBron James 18.65
2008 Chris Paul 16.03
2007 Tim Duncan 14.82
2006 Steve Nash 14.30
2005 Kevin Garnett 16.49
2004 Kevin Garnett 17.87
2003 Kevin Garnett 15.67
2002 Tim Duncan 15.52
2001 Shaquille O'Neal 14.14
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 17.41
1999 Shaquille O'Neal 9.00
1998 Karl Malone 14.74
1997 Karl Malone 16.62
1996 David Robinson 18.55
1995 David Robinson 17.85
1994 David Robinson 17.71
1993 Hakeem Olajuwon 18.76
1992 Michael Jordan 16.84
1991 Michael Jordan 19.61
1990 Michael Jordan 19.37
1989 Michael Jordan 19.16
1988 Michael Jordan 19.48
1987 Magic Johnson 16.99
1986 Larry Bird 16.91
1985 Larry Bird 16.59
1984 Larry Bird 14.51
1983 Moses Malone 15.07
1982 Julius Erving 16.18
1981 Julius Erving 15.98
1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 16.13
1979 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 15.78
1978 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 13.13
1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18.94
1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18.64
1975 Bob McAdoo 16.85
1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 17.09
1973 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18.11
1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 20.70
1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 20.32
1970 Willis Reed 14.72
1969 Wilt Chamberlain 15.65
1968 Wilt Chamberlain 20.42
1967 Wilt Chamberlain 20.61
1966 Wilt Chamberlain 20.63
1965 Bill Russell 17.67
1964 Wilt Chamberlain 22.37
1963 Wilt Chamberlain 21.79
1962 Wilt Chamberlain 22.72
1961 Wilt Chamberlain 19.54
1960 Wilt Chamberlain 17.97


What is that number? What are the equations you're using? What stats are weighted for what values? Is era/pace/league averages incorporated?

Or is this another one of Lionel's patented "Lionel stats" that is basically whatever he believes in numeric form?

likemystylez
03-27-2015, 10:57 AM
scary thing is- id bet steph curry is playing atleast 15% less minutes than most of these other guys.

Lionel20
03-27-2015, 02:20 PM
What is that number? What are the equations you're using? What stats are weighted for what values? Is era/pace/league averages incorporated?

Or is this another one of Lionel's patented "Lionel stats" that is basically whatever he believes in numeric form?

Player Value Win Shares is based on the "Alternative Wins Shares" and "Value Over Replacement Player" formulas. I adjusted VORP to better reflect defensive efficiency.

I gave equal weight to each formula, because they both correlate high with team wins..

(((((AWS+adjVORP)/2)*(1+USG%/100))*GP)/125)

I didn't adjust for pace or age because this list is simply measuring single season production compare to other players that same season.

For instance the best player in 1986-1987 season came down to:

1. Magic 16.99
2. Jordan 16.91
3. Bird 15.25

Compared to the 2007-2008 leaders:

1. Chris Paul 16.03
2. LeBron 14.88
3. Kobe 14.22


If adjusted for pace & league quality (in my work I adjust all era's to 1990 levels for the competitive balance).

revised 1986-87 Wins

1. Jordan 15.03
2. Bird 14.98
3. Magic 14.41

revised 2007-08 Wins

1. LeBron 14.93
2. Chris Paul 14.88
3. Kobe 14.72


The 80s game was higher competitive quality but also played at a higher pace. The 2000s game is assessed a lower quality, but played at a slower pace. Once the adjustments are made and each of the listed players are adjusted to 90s LQ and pace, LeBron is the best player/MVP in '08, and Jordan is the best player/MVP in '87.

In both the 80s, 2000s, there is less quality competition as PG compared to 90s levels. This hurts Magic's value in '87, and Paul even more so in '08.

Another way to read my unadjusted work is (I don't not have the time to share any other particulars and breakdowns):

If the Milwaukee Bucks in the beginning of the '86-87 season would've traded Paul Pressey to the Lakers for Magic Johnson, all else even, theoretically they'd pick up 6 wins. AWS and VORP do a decent enough job of "attempting" to isolate individual player value. I'd predict that the '86-'87 Magic Johnson led Bucks would go 56-26, finishing 2nd to the Hawks in the Central, locking up the 3-seed in the East.

Although Magic scored a 16.99 in Player Value shares in '87, Pressey a respectable 7.27, Pressey played 61 games to Magic's 80. By reducing Magic's GP to 61 to match Pressey's availability, Magic ends up with 12.95 win shares in the regular season over the same duration.

Now this is pure estimation theory, but according the player value formula, 1987 Magic helps provide .21 win shares per game, multiply that times the amount of games the traded Pressey actually played in the post season (12), and the Bucks pick up another win. In the 3 seed, they would face Washington, then Atlanta round 2.

The Atlanta series is challenging because they didn't actually play in the '87 playoffs. I didn't create Player Value Shares as a forecast stats, it relies on some degree of actual data.

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 02:25 PM
So Curry is MVP.... duh

Guess my prediction 3 years ago wasn't so insane was it kids?

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 02:28 PM
scary thing is- id bet steph curry is playing atleast 15% less minutes than most of these other guys.

Yes

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 02:39 PM
It's sad to me that many national "basketball analysts" with voting power won't be voting for Steph Curry.

On one hand they want to give Joke Harden and Westbrook extra credit because their all star teammates are injured and on the other take points away from Steph because he's on "such a great team". I've heard the argument that GSW would still be in first place without Curry on the squad...

What a pile a garbage some of these guys are...

The truth is that Curry should get extra points for doing what he's doing with other good players on the floor. IT would be a heck of a lot easier to get MVP numbers on a team where he can play nearly 40 minutes and be an unaplogetic ball hog (Joke Harden and Westbrook).

What's even more pathetic is that these same "analysts" want to give points to guys like Lebron in years past because hes on "the most winning team" and "he makes players around him better"...

Its obvious to me that these voters pick who they want to be MVP based on things like NBA image and personal preferences. They then make up some ridiculous reason as to why they are voting a certain way no matter how illogical it is.

Curry is the clear cut MVP and will likely be a candidate for the next decade. But that's if we are judging who the actual best basketball player is....

If we are judging who looks the coolest when they dunk or when they wear their bright pink suits and hats at media events then I suppose Westbrook and Harden are the MVPS

Curry is the MVP. Lets just give him the trophy early this season

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 03:01 PM
People don't yet quite understand how good Curry is, because stats on "gravity" that a defense perform aren't readily available. But yeah, this kid is way beyond "special", he's potential Top 10 All-Time productive right now. And the Warriors will win the title this season in large part because of that.

HAha!

I've been on the Curry bandwagon since his rookie year and believe he will go down as an all time great.

But I admit that I have my concerns about him succeeding in the post season... I wouldn't be handing him a title just yet.

My guess is that GSW aren't quite ready this year and Kerr needs to learn how to use him in the playoffs

valade16
03-27-2015, 03:18 PM
It's sad to me that many national "basketball analysts" with voting power won't be voting for Steph Curry.

On one hand they want to give Joke Harden and Westbrook extra credit because their all star teammates are injured and on the other take points away from Steph because he's on "such a great team". I've heard the argument that GSW would still be in first place without Curry on the squad...

What a pile a garbage some of these guys are...

The truth is that Curry should get extra points for doing what he's doing with other good players on the floor. IT would be a heck of a lot easier to get MVP numbers on a team where he can play nearly 40 minutes and be an unaplogetic ball hog (Joke Harden and Westbrook).

What's even more pathetic is that these same "analysts" want to give points to guys like Lebron in years past because hes on "the most winning team" and "he makes players around him better"...

Its obvious to me that these voters pick who they want to be MVP based on things like NBA image and personal preferences. They then make up some ridiculous reason as to why they are voting a certain way no matter how illogical it is.

Curry is the clear cut MVP and will likely be a candidate for the next decade. But that's if we are judging who the actual best basketball player is....

If we are judging who looks the coolest when they dunk or when they wear their bright pink suits and hats at media events then I suppose Westbrook and Harden are the MVPS

Curry is the MVP. Lets just give him the trophy early this season

While I think Curry should win MVP I think this is actually a point in Harden's favor. As you point out, Curry's teammates are better than Hardens'. A lot better. And yet despite the fact Harden has played with a pretty poor supporting cast thus far this season the Rockets are 3rd in the West and more importantly, for all the ball-hogging Harden has done, he's done it very efficiently.

You don't find what Harden is doing in Houston impressive considering how good their record is?

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 03:32 PM
While I think Curry should win MVP I think this is actually a point in Harden's favor. As you point out, Curry's teammates are better than Hardens'. A lot better. And yet despite the fact Harden has played with a pretty poor supporting cast thus far this season the Rockets are 3rd in the West and more importantly, for all the ball-hogging Harden has done, he's done it very efficiently.

You don't find what Harden is doing in Houston impressive considering how good their record is?

No I don't. Harden plays no defense. none. He's not nearly as good at Steph - not on any level - lets anaylze who is best at each facet

Scoring - Curry
Shooting- Curry
Defense- Curry
Passing- Curry
Winning- Curry
Looking cool in commercials with manly Beard- Harden

He is better at every basketball skill that exists. The Rockets have underrated 'role' players and an overrated Dwight. I personally think they are better without Howard on the floor.

But hey, what else can I say? Every statistical measure I know of shows that Curry is a far superior player to Harden this year and any other year.

What I know for sure - Curry has had unapologetic haters and underraters since his college career when he had to goto Davidson because all the biggest college programs didn't think he was good enough... at best he was labeled as a SG playing out of position at PG. I heard that so many times I can't count. It's only this year that SOME people are starting to realize that he is an all time great passer as well as the best shooter of all time.

It just shows me how prevalent the lack of true basketball knowledge is within the sport at all levels

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 03:38 PM
Here is my fav video to show the Curry underraters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JyTIQq5H-g

Bobby Knight called Curry the best passer in college basketball history 6 years ago.

That's called knowing basketball fellas. Try it sometime

xnick5757
03-27-2015, 04:33 PM
No I don't. Harden plays no defense. none. He's not nearly as good at Steph - not on any level - lets anaylze who is best at each facet

Scoring - Curry
Shooting- Curry
Defense- Curry
Passing- Curry
Winning- Curry
Looking cool in commercials with manly Beard- Harden

He is better at every basketball skill that exists. The Rockets have underrated 'role' players and an overrated Dwight. I personally think they are better without Howard on the floor.

But hey, what else can I say? Every statistical measure I know of shows that Curry is a far superior player to Harden this year and any other year.

What I know for sure - Curry has had unapologetic haters and underraters since his college career when he had to goto Davidson because all the biggest college programs didn't think he was good enough... at best he was labeled as a SG playing out of position at PG. I heard that so many times I can't count. It's only this year that SOME people are starting to realize that he is an all time great passer as well as the best shooter of all time.

It just shows me how prevalent the lack of true basketball knowledge is within the sport at all levels


Harden's a better rebounder, for one. And is better at drawing fouls.


Harden's ability to get free throws is insane.

.558 FT Attempts per FG Attempt (Curry is at .260)


Harden's averaging over 10 FTs a game. That's five fouls that the other team has to account for, which IMO is a huge impact

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 04:40 PM
Harden's a better rebounder

According to facts, they are essentially the same at rebounding....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=curryst01&p2=hardeja01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_game::none

Nice try though

xnick5757
03-27-2015, 04:42 PM
According to facts, they are essentially the same at rebounding....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=curryst01&p2=hardeja01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_game::none

Nice try though



Per 36 Harden gets about a rebound more a game, I was responding to your "Curry is the best at everything" comment

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 04:42 PM
Harden's a better rebounder, for one. And is better at drawing fouls.


Harden's ability to get free throws is insane.

.558 FT Attempts per FG Attempt (Curry is at .260)


Harden's averaging over 10 FTs a game. That's five fouls that the other team has to account for, which IMO is a huge impact

Hahaha - ability to get free throws??? is that really a skill???

LOL!!!

Maybe Curry just doesnt do that as much because he is busy DRILLING 3pts off the dribble or bulleting passes to his open teammates??

omg the logic of some people and their biases never ceases to amaze me! I find it so enjoyable

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 04:44 PM
Per 36 Harden gets about a rebound more a game, I was responding to your "Curry is the best at everything" comment

per game there is a .2 difference in TRB....

Then Curry dominates at every other statistical measure.... great point guy

Oh wait - i forgot ability to get free throws! lol

xnick5757
03-27-2015, 04:44 PM
Hahaha - ability to get free throws??? is that really a skill???

LOL!!!

Maybe Curry just doesnt do that as much because he is busy DRILLING 3pts off the dribble or bulleting passes to his open teammates??

omg the logic of some people and their biases never ceases to amaze me! I find it so enjoyable



:confused: Ability to draw fouls is absolutely an important skill. Harden's all about the high efficiency shots - either take 3s or drive to the rim and either score or draw a foul


Harden draws fouls on the level of prime Kobe, but on MUCH fewer shots

PraiseJesus
03-27-2015, 04:57 PM
:confused: Ability to draw fouls is absolutely an important skill. Harden's all about the high efficiency shots - either take 3s or drive to the rim and either score or draw a foul


Harden draws fouls on the level of prime Kobe, but on MUCH fewer shots

So now Harden is like Kobe???

I am literally laughing out loud.

So all Curry has to do is flop more and draw more free throws and he is better than Harden???

Yea that makes a lot of sense! !!!

Every year the world gets more crazy for Basketball analysts and fans

tredigs
03-28-2015, 02:26 AM
Blathering

I happen to think you're a clueless blowhard as it pertains to this forum, and I specifically remember you renouncing all praise on Curry no more than 10 months ago -- so I wanted to scour through some of your old posts and came upon this gem (that I admittedly have no recollection of but makes sense):

Here's the link to the page/debate http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?864935-Steve-Kerr-accepts-Warriors-Job&p=28499881#post28499881, but this response to one of my quotes was particularly entertaining (both at the time and especially in hindsight)



The only thing that's Illuminated is my extensive basketball knowledge and observational analysis skills.

Mark this down right here kids. Put it on your bookmarks. Favorite this post, whatever you have to do. HEck, lets make a sig bet on the whole thing.

Steve Kerr will be less successful than Mark Jackson as a coach

Ariza's Better
03-28-2015, 07:08 AM
So Curry is MVP.... duh

Guess my prediction 3 years ago wasn't so insane was it kids?


HAha!

I've been on the Curry bandwagon since his rookie year and believe he will go down as an all time great.

But I admit that I have my concerns about him succeeding in the post season... I wouldn't be handing him a title just yet.

My guess is that GSW aren't quite ready this year and Kerr needs to learn how to use him in the playoffs
I love how a year ago you calling him overrated and not gonna amount to anything. Now your down playing it as only concerns. Man, you need to work out your bi-polar opinions.

mightybosstone
03-28-2015, 08:02 AM
I'm actually not going to argue that Curry has had the statistically superior season to Harden. I would try, but I just wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on outside of your basic box score stats. That being said, I think Harden's case for MVP is every bit as strong.

Look at Curry's team. He has an elite, top 3-4 SG next to him in Thompson, a DPOY and MIP candidate in Green and an elite defensive center in Bogut in addition to one of the deepest rosters in the league. And aside from injuries to David Lee (who clearly lost his role with this squad), what real adversity has that team faced this season? I'm not trying to downplay how good that Warriors team is, because they are freakishly, historically good, but it's easy to do that when your five starters combined don't miss 25 games.

Meanwhile Houston has been one of the most banged up teams in the league all season long. Last night was their 15th different starting lineup. Dwight has missed half the season and Terrence Jones (who is probably the team's third best player) has missed even more than that with two just unusually strange injuries. Those guys have played a combined 59 games this season, and now Beverley might be out for the year.

Yet Houston is on track to finish with a top 2 or 3 seed in the West and a top 5 record in the league overall. Why? Because Harden has put this team on his back. Harden has more win shares for the Rockets than any three other players on the team combined. Outside of Dwight, who has missed half the season, nobody else on the roster has averaged 13 points a game and he and Jones are the only other players who have a PER over 16 or a WS/48 over .120. And Harden is essentially the team's only competent playmaker. His APG and AST% are essentially double that of any other player on the roster and the second best guys (Beverley) may miss the rest of the season. And I realize that Harden's efficiency isn't as great as Curry's, but Curry's USG% is well below Harden's, because that's what Harden has been required to do this season for the Rockets to win games.

It's easy to just say Curry is the MVP because the Warriors have been insanely good this season and he's the best player on the best team. But the MVP is a totally subjective award, and Harden's case for MVP is just as strong based on the criteria of a player who means the most to his team's overall success within that given season.

tredigs
03-28-2015, 09:14 AM
^The flaw here being that the Warriors are having a top 5 or so season ever, and yet with Curry off the court they are barely a playoff squad; his adjusted on/off #'s are top in the league. Bottom line is that with him being as dominant as he's been (arguably the best player in the NBA on the year, unquestionably top 3), the ~10 game lead they have on everyone else in the NBA makes it a runaway at this point. 3 weeks ago Harden was building more steam, but with the way Curry and the Warriors have been playing it's setting up to not be all that close. If he sits another game and still breaks his own 3pt record (which I could see him doing the last game of the season making 5+ on the night in his usual 3 quarters), that'll be the icing.

nastynice
03-28-2015, 09:18 AM
Look at Curry's team. He has an elite, top 3-4 SG next to him in Thompson, a DPOY and MIP candidate in Green and an elite defensive center in Bogut in addition to one of the deepest rosters in the league. And aside from injuries to David Lee (who clearly lost his role with this squad), what real adversity has that team faced this season? I'm not trying to downplay how good that Warriors team is, because they are freakishly, historically good, but it's easy to do that when your four five starters combined don't miss 25 games.


The thing about this tho, when Curry is on the floor he is still getting 2-3 guys thrown at him, or at least lurking. I get what you're saying, he's surrounded by better teammates, but watching the games that doesn't seem to really open anything up for him much. He's still far and away the oppositions #1 concern, and he is constantly bombarded by defenders. I would see that argument holding weight if those players around him were drawing defenses away from him, giving him more room to operate, but that isn't the case.

nastynice
03-28-2015, 09:21 AM
^The flaw here being that the Warriors are having a top 5 or so season ever, and yet with Curry off the court they are barely a playoff squad; his adjusted on/off #'s are top in the league. Bottom line is that with him being as dominant as he's been (arguably the best player in the NBA on the year, unquestionably top 3), the ~10 game lead they have on everyone else in the NBA makes it a runaway at this point. 3 weeks ago Harden was building more steam, but with the way Curry and the Warriors have been playing it's setting up to not be all that close. If he sits another game and still breaks his own 3pt record (which I could see him doing the last game of the season making 5+ on the night in his usual 3 quarters), that'll be the icing.

I see it the exact same way. I think Harden's had an incredible season, but the dubs are just clicking now, and Curry is just lighting **** just about every game now. Its crazy how quietly he can put up 25pts in 3 quarters. I felt its been a tossup between Curry and Harden for most of the season, but at this point I'd be pretty surprised if Curry doesn't get it.

esscobar05
03-28-2015, 05:12 PM
Voting will go..
1. Curry
2. Harden
3. Westbrook'
4. Lebron

It should go;
1. Curry
2. Lebron
3. Harden
4. Westbrook

The teams record has to play a part in the NBA MVP!
Westbrook is doing it all for the Thunder but if they are a 8 seed there is no way that he can be an NBA MVP... Definanly The Thunder MVP but no NBA!

jerellh528
03-28-2015, 10:27 PM
I don't know why ppl have Lebron so high when he's being outplayed by a teamate on virtually an every other game basis. It's a 2 guy race between harden n curry with westbrook trailing.

nastynice
03-29-2015, 01:58 AM
I don't know why ppl have Lebron so high when he's being outplayed by a teamate on virtually an every other game basis. It's a 2 guy race between harden n curry with westbrook trailing.

lol, I like how u put it.

Its cuz he's still the best player in the league, we all know it, so it kinda just automatically makes people jump on the lebron bandwagon on first glimpse of his elite level play

mightybosstone
03-29-2015, 12:11 PM
^The flaw here being that the Warriors are having a top 5 or so season ever, and yet with Curry off the court they are barely a playoff squad; his adjusted on/off #'s are top in the league.
Two things about this:
1. You're not accounting for the fact that (as I previously stated), the Warriors starting five has been insanely healthy this season. A healthy, deep starting five would obviously bode well for any player's numbers. So let's take those numbers with a grain of salt.
2. And this point is even more important... The average MVP voter will not care about that stat and probably doesn't know that the stat exists in the first place. So it's a moot point to begin with.


Bottom line is that with him being as dominant as he's been (arguably the best player in the NBA on the year, unquestionably top 3), the ~10 game lead they have on everyone else in the NBA makes it a runaway at this point. 3 weeks ago Harden was building more steam, but with the way Curry and the Warriors have been playing it's setting up to not be all that close. If he sits another game and still breaks his own 3pt record (which I could see him doing the last game of the season making 5+ on the night in his usual 3 quarters), that'll be the icing.
I'm not going to debate that Curry has had a superior season statistically in terms of efficiency or that he's probably been the better player when he's on the floor. I'm debating that his MVP candidacy is an open/shut case, because MVP voters consider a lot more variable than "who is the best player in the league?" If that was their only argument, Jordan and Lebron would have a hell of a lot more hardware.

I'm not really willing to say that I think either guy is more deserving. I think Curry has played better, but Harden has stepped up bigger under much tougher circumstances. And you claim that Harden's case is losing steam, but if the Rockets finish second in the West with the third best record in the league and he finishes around 27/7/6, he's going to have a VERY strong case to made as MVP. To me, it's a coin flip right now.

tredigs
03-29-2015, 01:52 PM
Rather than take the energy to respond, I'll just flat out tell you this race is over, because it is. The Warriors floor is 66 wins now and Curry is peaking.

mightybosstone
03-29-2015, 01:56 PM
Rather than take the energy to respond, I'll just flat out tell you this race is over, because it is. The Warriors floor is 66 wins now and Curry is peaking.

I think Curry has a slight lead on Harden. I would be surprised if he didn't win the award. That being said, I think you're looking at the race with homer glasses and being a tad naive about how inconsistent MVP voters tend to be. How many times have guys won the MVP when there were arguably better candidates? At least a dozen.

I assure you the race is not over, and I wouldn't be so confident if I was you.

tredigs
03-29-2015, 02:03 PM
I think Curry has a slight lead on Harden. I would be surprised if he didn't win the award. That being said, I think you're looking at the race with homer glasses and being a tad naive about how inconsistent MVP voters tend to be. How many times have guys won the MVP when there were arguably better candidates? At least a dozen.

I assure you the race is not over, and I wouldn't be so confident if I was you.
No, you're the homer bud. Just to make sure I'm not the homer I checked the current Vegas odds: Curry is 2/5 right now while Westbrook and Harden are tied at just over 2/1. Basically what they're saying is it's a wrap.

Edit: Lebron/AD are out of the picture.

IKnowHoops
03-29-2015, 02:45 PM
Kind of funny how Kerr is going with Westbrook for MVP

tredigs
03-29-2015, 02:52 PM
Kind of funny how Kerr is going with Westbrook for MVP

You do realize he was joking I hope... as he said... in his quote.

mightybosstone
03-29-2015, 02:53 PM
No, you're the homer bud. Just to make sure I'm not the homer I checked the current Vegas odds: Curry is 2/5 right now while Westbrook and Harden are tied at just over 2/1. Basically what they're saying is it's a wrap.

Edit: Lebron/AD are out of the picture.

:laugh: How am I being a homer? I JUST said that I thought Curry was the better player, had the edge right now and should probably win the award. And I'm the one being a homer? I'm just saying it's not an open and shut case because it's a subjective award. I'd like to see the Vegas odds the years Nash won his awards, the years Malone and Barkley beat out MJ, or the Kobe or Rose MVPs. I'm willing to bet Vegas didn't get all of those right.

jerellh528
03-29-2015, 02:57 PM
They probably had the kobe one pegged

WaDe03
03-29-2015, 03:57 PM
If Harden, Westbrook, Davis, or LeBron win it then Wade should've for sure won it in 08-09 and possible 09-10, 10-11 and Kobe should have won more.

mightybosstone
03-29-2015, 04:36 PM
If Harden, Westbrook, Davis, or LeBron win it then Wade should've for sure won it in 08-09 and possible 09-10, 10-11 and Kobe should have won more.

Wade was not better than Lebron in any of those seasons. Like, I don't even know how you can justify that one...

Verbal Christ
03-29-2015, 07:55 PM
Let Curry win it "we're focused on other things" LOL

odds, team performance, VORP who's campaigning now?

cant wait for the playoffs there is a certain fan base that will have alot of explaining to do if it doesnt go right.

G_S_W
03-29-2015, 09:54 PM
:laugh: How am I being a homer? I JUST said that I thought Curry was the better player, had the edge right now and should probably win the award. And I'm the one being a homer? I'm just saying it's not an open and shut case because it's a subjective award. I'd like to see the Vegas odds the years Nash won his awards, the years Malone and Barkley beat out MJ, or the Kobe or Rose MVPs. I'm willing to bet Vegas didn't get all of those right.

You didn't actually say curry was the better player. You actually stated curry is PROBABLY the better player.

As in, there is room for doubt. Meaning, there is room for doubt since Harden has done so much with so little and therefore is the ACTUAL MVP, since curry has done even more with a stacked squad.

Furthermore, by calling the award "subjective," you want to de-legitimize Curry's impending MVP award pre-emptively since you know he will win it over Harden.

Talk about passive aggressive. Take a stand and stick to it. Geez.

nastynice
03-29-2015, 10:05 PM
cant wait for the playoffs there is a certain fan base that will have alot of explaining to do if it doesnt go right.

ahh, haven't had that feeling in a WHILE. To have your team truly be a championship or bust team, feels good. Now I know how the damn heat fans felt the past 4 years, the Lakers in the early 2000's, bulls 90's. Clearly not anything close to those teams who had a string of championship or bust seasons, but still, I'll take it, even if its just one season right now.

I think the only true championship or bust teams in the league right now are warriors and spurs, mmmmaybe the cavs, I don't know.

PraiseJesus
03-29-2015, 11:50 PM
I love how a year ago you calling him overrated and not gonna amount to anything. Now your down playing it as only concerns. Man, you need to work out your bi-polar opinions.


HHAHAHAHAHAH

I love how some of you kids want to try and distort reality.

I foretold Curry's greatness.

YOur reference to me saying hes overrated was simply me saying that Kyrie Irving will be a better playoff player

hahahaha

Face the music guys, I was right and am almost always

PraiseJesus
03-29-2015, 11:53 PM
I happen to think you're a clueless blowhard as it pertains to this forum, and I specifically remember you renouncing all praise on Curry no more than 10 months ago -- so I wanted to scour through some of your old posts and came upon this gem (that I admittedly have no recollection of but makes sense):

Here's the link to the page/debate http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?864935-Steve-Kerr-accepts-Warriors-Job&p=28499881#post28499881, but this response to one of my quotes was particularly entertaining (both at the time and especially in hindsight)

So we are talking about Curry and my correctness about him being an MVP candidate when everyone on PSD was trying to clown me and say that Deron Williams was elite and Curry wasn't even a top 10 PG...

And you bring up some random statment about Steve Kerr???

Hahahah Thats the best you can do?

Face it, I was right. Some of you just cant handle it

Ariza's Better
03-30-2015, 01:15 AM
HHAHAHAHAHAH

I love how some of you kids want to try and distort reality.

I foretold Curry's greatness.

YOur reference to me saying hes overrated was simply me saying that Kyrie Irving will be a better playoff player

hahahaha

Face the music guys, I was right and am almost always
Right about what? You said he was overrated because he didn't win a 3 point contest and now your saying you knew he was going to be a mvp contender. No one is distorting anything. You just need to sort out your bi-polar opinions.

tredigs
03-30-2015, 02:50 AM
Right about what? You said he was overrated because he didn't win a 3 point contest and now your saying you knew he was going to be a mvp contender. No one is distorting anything. You just need to sort out your bi-polar opinions.

Exactly. I was going to scroll through his old posts for a minute to find his opinions on that but the Kerr post/thread that he was hilariously 100% wrong on was literally the 1st post I saw so I thought it was relevant (being that he says he's right on everything). He's a blowhard. Not much else to say.

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 03:18 AM
Right about what? You said he was overrated because he didn't win a 3 point contest and now your saying you knew he was going to be a mvp contender. No one is distorting anything. You just need to sort out your bi-polar opinions.

Actually people (like you) are misrepresenting my opinion.

I foretold in Currys rookie year that he would be an MVP candidate, Hall of Famer, and All time great. Thats well known.

Then last year I said that Kyrie Irving would be a better playoff player than Curry due to his attitude and style of game.

Here we are and Curry is about to get an MVP and Kyrie may get a ring if he performs in the playoffs like I think he will.

Thats called being correct my friend

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 03:21 AM
Exactly. I was going to scroll through his old posts for a minute to find his opinions on that but the Kerr post/thread that he was hilariously 100% wrong on was literally the 1st post I saw so I thought it was relevant (being that he says he's right on everything). He's a blowhard. Not much else to say.

I know right - why find the posts that are relevant to the discussion when you can find one thing I possibly wasn't right about and show it.

and BTW - I still wouldnt concede that Kerr is a better coach than Mark Jackson yet. The GSW are better this year with the experience they have. They would have to at least make the finals to go farther than Jackson...

smh...

it just eats you alive that I was so right about Curry and it's obvious

tredigs
03-30-2015, 03:24 AM
I know right - why find the posts that are relevant to the discussion when you can find one thing I possibly wasn't right about and show it.

and BTW - I still wouldnt concede that Kerr is a better coach than Mark Jackson yet. The GSW are better this year with the experience they have. They would have to at least make the finals to go farther than Jackson...

smh...

it just eats you alive that I was so right about Curry and it's obvious
Eats me alive? I was the guy clowning you relentlessly when you retracted your original opinions and said he was an overrated loser 10 months ago because Irving had a good All Star game.

You are a delusional wreck kid.

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 05:02 AM
Eats me alive? I was the guy clowning you relentlessly when you retracted your original opinions and said he was an overrated loser 10 months ago because Irving had a good All Star game.

You are a delusional wreck kid.

You are the clearly the delusional one.

I made a clear distinction between a player that excels in the regular season under regular circumstances and a player that excels under high pressure playoff ones.

Some players are dominant in the regular season year after year (Steve Nash for example) but their game and style doesn't translate to the playoffs as well.

That is what I said about Curry - NOT that he was an overrated loser. I take exception to people like oyu who misrepresent my CLEARLY stated opinions over and over. I also take exception with all the people i nthis forum that continue to patronize me and my opinions despite the fact that I am correct almost all of the time.

Just look at my sig. I was high and hopeful on the Lakers for years until the offseason when Dwight and Nash arrived. I told people here that I thought it was a disaster in the making. Nash was old and done, Kobe was winding down, Dantoni is a dunce, and Dwight was an overrated crybaby.

I got cast as "TROLL" and was banned. I also had my priveleges to start thread revoked.

It's all good. It really is. I'm still here. I'm still fighting you kids against your misrepresentations and your clouded opinions.

What you will never EVER do is convince me that I'm dellusional... in fact, I believe im the clearest thinking person on this website based on the stuff I read on here year after year.

I thought you were one of the few that were different tredigs - but you really took a turn for the worse...

Good luck to your GSW. Im rooting for them. Be warned that they aren't ready to win a ring yet.

Saddletramp
03-30-2015, 05:59 AM
What you will never EVER do is convince me that I'm dellusional... in fact, I believe im the clearest thinking person on this website based on the stuff I read on here year after year.


:whistle:

valade16
03-30-2015, 08:57 AM
No I don't. Harden plays no defense. none. He's not nearly as good at Steph - not on any level - lets anaylze who is best at each facet

Scoring - Curry
Shooting- Curry
Defense- Curry
Passing- Curry
Winning- Curry
Looking cool in commercials with manly Beard- Harden

He is better at every basketball skill that exists. The Rockets have underrated 'role' players and an overrated Dwight. I personally think they are better without Howard on the floor.

But hey, what else can I say? Every statistical measure I know of shows that Curry is a far superior player to Harden this year and any other year.

What I know for sure - Curry has had unapologetic haters and underraters since his college career when he had to goto Davidson because all the biggest college programs didn't think he was good enough... at best he was labeled as a SG playing out of position at PG. I heard that so many times I can't count. It's only this year that SOME people are starting to realize that he is an all time great passer as well as the best shooter of all time.

It just shows me how prevalent the lack of true basketball knowledge is within the sport at all levels

I'm sorry but this is flat out incorrect. Harden has outscored Curry the last 4 seasons in a row and is currently averaging 3.5 more PPG than Curry. His scoring Per/36 and Per/100 Possessions are similarly superior.

Curry is not a better scorer than Harden. He is a better shooter however Harden is a decent shooter himself and far superior at both driving and getting to the FT line than Curry.

Also, the defensive jab at Harden shows you are clearly living in the past because Harden's defense has not been nearly as atrocious as in past seasons (and I was one of the loudest detractors of Harden's prowess on that side of the floor), but it's not exactly like Curry is a defensive juggernaught either.

Saying Curry is better at Harden at defense is a lot like saying the number 6 is more than the number 5. It is true however it isn't more by much and there are a lot of other numbers bigger. Curry is literally the worst defender in GS' starting lineup and most likely the 7th best defender on the team overall. GS being good at defense has very little to do with Curry.

Verbal Christ
03-30-2015, 12:53 PM
ahh, haven't had that feeling in a WHILE. To have your team truly be a championship or bust team, feels good. Now I know how the damn heat fans felt the past 4 years, the Lakers in the early 2000's, bulls 90's. Clearly not anything close to those teams who had a string of championship or bust seasons, but still, I'll take it, even if its just one season right now.

I think the only true championship or bust teams in the league right now are warriors and spurs, mmmmaybe the cavs, I don't know.


And believe it or not Im happy for your team and fans, but there is a certain level of egotism that has permeated that rubs some people the wrong way, myself included. Just remember the yang of your championship or bust theory is that every year there is a cinderella. Dubs are not invincible, but all the same, human nature may nurture the 'finally we are good so we are gonna be buttholes about it' characterization that comes from winning routinely. Only fanbase I know that doesnt have douchebag chest thumpers is San Antonio. They win, they know they win, but they dont have to be dicks about it. To each his own and for what is worth you are probably the only Dubs fan I can tolerate who isnt always looking down on everybody else.

IKnowHoops
03-30-2015, 01:17 PM
ahh, haven't had that feeling in a WHILE. To have your team truly be a championship or bust team, feels good. Now I know how the damn heat fans felt the past 4 years, the Lakers in the early 2000's, bulls 90's. Clearly not anything close to those teams who had a string of championship or bust seasons, but still, I'll take it, even if its just one season right now.

I think the only true championship or bust teams in the league right now are warriors and spurs, mmmmaybe the cavs, I don't know.

You guys are certainly on pace to be a perennial championship or bust team for at least the rest of Curry's prime (5 years)

I'd probably throw Atlanta in that mix too. At this point for them, anything less than a ring will bring upon them severe disappointment.

tredigs
03-30-2015, 01:23 PM
I'm sorry but this is flat out incorrect. Harden has outscored Curry the last 4 seasons in a row and is currently averaging 3.5 more PPG than Curry. His scoring Per/36 and Per/100 Possessions are similarly superior.

Curry is not a better scorer than Harden. He is a better shooter however Harden is a decent shooter himself and far superior at both driving and getting to the FT line than Curry.

Also, the defensive jab at Harden shows you are clearly living in the past because Harden's defense has not been nearly as atrocious as in past seasons (and I was one of the loudest detractors of Harden's prowess on that side of the floor), but it's not exactly like Curry is a defensive juggernaught either.

Saying Curry is better at Harden at defense is a lot like saying the number 6 is more than the number 5. It is true however it isn't more by much and there are a lot of other numbers bigger. Curry is literally the worst defender in GS' starting lineup and most likely the 7th best defender on the team overall. GS being good at defense has very little to do with Curry.

Well, their scoring per 100 possessions have been essentially equal the past 2 seasons (within ~1/1.5 points), while Curry's percentages are better across the board and from every distance (at the rim, 3-10 ft, midrange, 3pt, FT line, etc). Harden is simply better at drawing fouls. A valuable skill to possess, but not enough of a foundation to warrant saying that Harden is the better 'scorer'. Curry is top 5 in TS% and top 3 in eFG% and is the only primary scorer in the top 10 of either.

Side note: Curry just smashed the record for 3's made in any single month this month (north of 70 already this month). He sat a game, and still has a game left. He did it on a 51% clip... 24 and 8 on 48/51/95 overall. Dubs went 15-1 with him (0-1 without).

Harden's still shooting sub 40% sine the ASB.

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 01:28 PM
I'm sorry but this is flat out incorrect. Harden has outscored Curry the last 4 seasons in a row and is currently averaging 3.5 more PPG than Curry. His scoring Per/36 and Per/100 Possessions are similarly superior.

Curry is not a better scorer than Harden. He is a better shooter however Harden is a decent shooter himself and far superior at both driving and getting to the FT line than Curry.

Also, the defensive jab at Harden shows you are clearly living in the past because Harden's defense has not been nearly as atrocious as in past seasons (and I was one of the loudest detractors of Harden's prowess on that side of the floor), but it's not exactly like Curry is a defensive juggernaught either.

Saying Curry is better at Harden at defense is a lot like saying the number 6 is more than the number 5. It is true however it isn't more by much and there are a lot of other numbers bigger. Curry is literally the worst defender in GS' starting lineup and most likely the 7th best defender on the team overall. GS being good at defense has very little to do with Curry.

Since 2010, Harden is averaging 21.7 pts/36 and Curry 21.4....

What was that comment you made about 6 being more than 5??? How about .7 being more than .4? hahahahah

Unbelievable

Bottomline, you can go over all of the numbers in any way you want. Curry is superior in every facet and hes doing it on a better team, at a more demanding position, and with less playing time.

Curry 32.8 MPG Harden 36.8 MPG

Let Curry play Harden's minutes...

It doesn't really matter, as i said in a previous post - the MVP garble I hear on a yearly basis is beyond ridiculous.

SOme people, like you, are partial to Harden this year. I think you are all basing that on something besides pure basketball skills and performance

IKnowHoops
03-30-2015, 01:31 PM
And believe it or not Im happy for your team and fans, but there is a certain level of egotism that has permeated that rubs some people the wrong way, myself included. Just remember the yang of your championship or bust theory is that every year there is a cinderella. Dubs are not invincible, but all the same, human nature may nurture the 'finally we are good so we are gonna be buttholes about it' characterization that comes from winning routinely. Only fanbase I know that doesnt have douchebag chest thumpers is San Antonio. They win, they know they win, but they dont have to be dicks about it. To each his own and for what is worth you are probably the only Dubs fan I can tolerate who isnt always looking down on everybody else.

I think the biggest reason Spurs fans don't thump there chests is because there team gets the respect it deserves, so there is no reason to say anthything. Ive been a Spurs fan since DRob's rookie season, but I am also a Lebron fan. I find myself pulling for Lebron to win more, because he gets less respect and has more to prove. I defend him a lot more and never have to defend the Spurs because they are never in question. Not true in 1990 of course, and I did cheer for the Spurs verse Cleveland in like 05...because the Spurs were still proving they were a dynasty. But as there hat shrank, and Lebron's hate grew, I found myself pulling much harder for Bron just because he wasn't getting his respect and the Spurs had there's.

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 01:32 PM
:whistle:

ty for your thoughtful contribtuion to the conversation

nastynice
03-30-2015, 01:53 PM
and BTW - I still wouldnt concede that Kerr is a better coach than Mark Jackson yet. The GSW are better this year with the experience they have. They would have to at least make the finals to go farther than Jackson...


ah, cmon. I wont say nothing about what you said about Curry and Irving, first off I don't even know, and second off both are absolute studs and two of the most exciting you pgs who have yet to hit their prime.

But coaching, c'mon, this coaching staff is FAR superior than last year's. There is just no doubt, all the switches on defenses, all the rotations, the entire thing. And offense, you can just watch one game and already tell it a superiorly coached offense, ball movment, designed plays, all players are moving at almost all times, there are SO many spots for each player and everyone is almost in constant motion getting to one spot or another. We had nothing close to this last year, just that same iso crap and camp out at 3 and if your defender leaves you kick it out.

nastynice
03-30-2015, 01:56 PM
You guys are certainly on pace to be a perennial championship or bust team for at least the rest of Curry's prime (5 years)

I'd probably throw Atlanta in that mix too. At this point for them, anything less than a ring will bring upon them severe disappointment.

The thing about Atlanta, I wouldn't say they're champion or bust THIS year. If they get to the ECF and get bounced, it will still be a successful season for them. Then maybe moving forward, if they can keep playing at as high a level, I could see them being champs or bust.

The dubs may be performing better than expected entering the season, but we already established as one of the 9 "contenders" in the west, already got some playoffs runs with expectations under our belt, so I think our last couple seasons combined with this season kinda put us in the category of if we don't win it all, season is a failure.

nastynice
03-30-2015, 02:02 PM
And believe it or not Im happy for your team and fans, but there is a certain level of egotism that has permeated that rubs some people the wrong way, myself included. Just remember the yang of your championship or bust theory is that every year there is a cinderella. Dubs are not invincible, but all the same, human nature may nurture the 'finally we are good so we are gonna be buttholes about it' characterization that comes from winning routinely. Only fanbase I know that doesnt have douchebag chest thumpers is San Antonio. They win, they know they win, but they dont have to be dicks about it. To each his own and for what is worth you are probably the only Dubs fan I can tolerate who isnt always looking down on everybody else.

lol, maybe, I don't know. I get that we be commenting in game threads, and gettin excited, but we BEEN doing that, last year too when we were just another of the many contenders rather than a top team in the league. We just love our dubs baby!! :cheers:

It just seems like it to u, cuz u know, psd has this established gsw-hou mutual hatred, haha, which really came out of left field. I'll tell u this tho, if the gsw-hou game outcomes were reversed, I'm pretty sure it would be brought up a lot more often on these forums...u disagree?

Saddletramp
03-30-2015, 03:44 PM
ty for your thoughtful contribtuion to the conversation

Why would anybody want to have any kind of conversation with you? You were wrong on the Kerr statement and instead of owning up to it, you still defend it. People complained about Jackson's coaching and said if they got a better coach that they would be a better team. They got a coach who turned out to be better and are now a better team. You cannot deny that. Yet you are. And your flip flopping on Curry is awful. In one post you say that Curry is a future All-Star, MVP, and all-time great. And then in your next post you say that he's not going to be very good in the playoffs. All Time greats are great in the playoffs, especially with that supporting cast. And the Kyrie thing. Just relax.

And even if you're right about everything (which you're not, btw), your cadence is particularly wretched. I'm not sure if you have your screen name because you're over-the-top religious (which would explain things) or its a Kobe thing (which would explain things) or if we should be praising your posts and insight like you were actually Jesus or something. I don't know. But the quote:


What you will never EVER do is convince me that I'm dellusional... in fact, I believe im the clearest thinking person on this website based on the stuff I read on here year after year.
is exactly what a delusional person would say.

Saddletramp
03-30-2015, 03:54 PM
The thing about Atlanta, I wouldn't say they're champion or bust THIS year. If they get to the ECF and get bounced, it will still be a successful season for them. Then maybe moving forward, if they can keep playing at as high a level, I could see them being champs or bust.

The dubs may be performing better than expected entering the season, but we already established as one of the 9 "contenders" in the west, already got some playoffs runs with expectations under our belt, so I think our last couple seasons combined with this season kinda put us in the category of if we don't win it all, season is a failure.

I agree with everything here. Atlanta isn't a Win or Bust team yet as their success is fairly new. They might get bounced early and go back to being solid yet inconsequential like in most years. Or they could win it all. Too early to tell. With what GS has built up to and then they got an actual competent coach and dominated in the regular season with all of the talent they have and the MVP front runner, they are definitely win or bust. And Lebron's team have turned into Win or Bust year in and year out because he puts himself in the best position he can and is still the best player in the world.

If the Finals aren't Golden State versus Cleveland, I'll be very, very surprised.

valade16
03-30-2015, 05:09 PM
Since 2010, Harden is averaging 21.7 pts/36 and Curry 21.4....

What was that comment you made about 6 being more than 5??? How about .7 being more than .4? hahahahah

Unbelievable

Bottomline, you can go over all of the numbers in any way you want. Curry is superior in every facet and hes doing it on a better team, at a more demanding position, and with less playing time.

Curry 32.8 MPG Harden 36.8 MPG

Let Curry play Harden's minutes...

It doesn't really matter, as i said in a previous post - the MVP garble I hear on a yearly basis is beyond ridiculous.

SOme people, like you, are partial to Harden this year. I think you are all basing that on something besides pure basketball skills and performance

First, you do realize PER/36 is there scoring average if they played 36 minutes a game right? So bringing up their MPG wouldn't really change that...

Second, 2010 includes his time on OKC where he obviously wasn't free to score at will on a team with Durant/Westy. Since he got to Houston his PER/36 has gone up to 24.9 (Curry's is at 23.6 during the same span).

Third, that actually makes it 1.3 to .4 not .7, so nice try. But we still faced with the idea that you are using a stat that shows Curry is an inferior scorer PER/36 mins to claim he is a superior one.

I guess only in the world of Praise Jesus is a stat that shows Curry doesn't score as much proof that he is better at it. At least Tredigs presented a reasonable argument.

Fourth, I'm not 'partial to Harden this season'. I have said and maintain that Curry should be the MVP all season long. I am just against stupid claims (like Curry is better at everything than Harden including scoring and then using a stat that shows he doesn't score as much to say he's better)...

valade16
03-30-2015, 05:17 PM
Well, their scoring per 100 possessions have been essentially equal the past 2 seasons (within ~1/1.5 points), while Curry's percentages are better across the board and from every distance (at the rim, 3-10 ft, midrange, 3pt, FT line, etc). Harden is simply better at drawing fouls. A valuable skill to possess, but not enough of a foundation to warrant saying that Harden is the better 'scorer'. Curry is top 5 in TS% and top 3 in eFG% and is the only primary scorer in the top 10 of either.

Side note: Curry just smashed the record for 3's made in any single month this month (north of 70 already this month). He sat a game, and still has a game left. He did it on a 51% clip... 24 and 8 on 48/51/95 overall. Dubs went 15-1 with him (0-1 without).

Harden's still shooting sub 40% sine the ASB.

Harden's TS% on the season is 60.2% so he's also extremely efficient.

Regardless, he certainly does not have a valid foundation to say that Curry is hands down the better scorer when Harden has scored at a higher clip ever since he came to the Rockets (even if by only slightly).

tredigs
03-30-2015, 05:48 PM
Harden's TS% on the season is 60.2% so he's also extremely efficient.

Regardless, he certainly does not have a valid foundation to say that Curry is hands down the better scorer when Harden has scored at a higher clip ever since he came to the Rockets (even if by only slightly).
Correct, VERY efficient from a PPP/TS% perspective in very large part due to his ability to get to the line and hit the gimme, but still fairly significantly less efficient than Curry's at right now. All in all I'd say Curry's pretty clearly a better natural scorer, and if he wasn't sitting so many 4th quarters due to blowouts (17 and counting now I think) then the increased volume would also be there, but that overall it's a worthy argument. Also, he's the PG and demands an absurd amount of attention (the most in the league according to 'gravity' the last time I saw the stat posted); he's more likely to pass than shoot in comparison to Harden.

Going back to his original point that Curry is better at every facet of basketball than Harden - I do actually think that's an argument that could be made, though many are close. Rebounding's a particularly interesting one because while Curry is probably better relative to his position and leads the entire NBA in "long" rebounds (boards > 10 feet I think is the measure? could be off), Harden's going to get more by nature due to his size/positioning.

tredigs
03-30-2015, 05:56 PM
Unfortunately for Houston fans, Beverly now also going down was probably the best case scenario for Harden's MVP bid if they can secure that 3 seed, and especially if they get the 2 seed. It does adjust my earlier opinion that this award is already shut because it drives home a narrative for Harden (still winning at a high level despite the plethora of injuries), but ultimately it might be a moot point if Curry stays at this level and the Warriors continue to roll. It would be really tough for voters not to give a fresh face + now arguably most popular player in the league the MVP with how great he's been if the Warriors push close to 70 wins. Remember, this was a team that was projected to win 50 and have an outside chance at HCA.

It was a bonus for Harden that the Warriors/Rockets matchups were all months ago now. It would've been must-watch TV for particular voters and with the way he/they rolled Harden and the Rox, the debate would end there (especially being that they were healthy for some).

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 07:58 PM
Why would anybody want to have any kind of conversation with you? You were wrong on the Kerr statement and instead of owning up to it, you still defend it. People complained about Jackson's coaching and said if they got a better coach that they would be a better team. They got a coach who turned out to be better and are now a better team. You cannot deny that. Yet you are. And your flip flopping on Curry is awful. In one post you say that Curry is a future All-Star, MVP, and all-time great. And then in your next post you say that he's not going to be very good in the playoffs. All Time greats are great in the playoffs, especially with that supporting cast. And the Kyrie thing. Just relax.

And even if you're right about everything (which you're not, btw), your cadence is particularly wretched. I'm not sure if you have your screen name because you're over-the-top religious (which would explain things) or its a Kobe thing (which would explain things) or if we should be praising your posts and insight like you were actually Jesus or something. I don't know. But the quote:

is exactly what a delusional person would say.

So the GSW are better this yearly ONLY because of Kerr? ..........

Are you kidding me?????????

GSW core is young and they naturally got better over the course of a year. Also the west is deeper this year but isn't as stacked at the top with teams like the Thunder and Spurs not having great years.

Again i see another PSD poster skimming through my posts, misrepresenting my opinions, and then trying to rip me for it.

You're delusional if you think you can even approach my sports knowledge and reasoning level. It's really easy to jump on the bandwagon, be a pessimist, and pick and choose little things to call out my many points on.

What's hard to do is display true knowledge about the game and foretell things like the rise of Curry's greatness.

BTW - your reading comprehension is terrible because I gave the perfect example of Steve Nash as being an ALL TIME GREAT who's game didnt translate well to the playoffs.

Is it really that diffucult for you to comprehend?? hahah actually don't even bother answering because I already know the answer

Saddletramp
03-30-2015, 08:27 PM
So the GSW are better this yearly ONLY because of Kerr? ..........

Are you kidding me?????????

GSW core is young and they naturally got better over the course of a year. Also the west is deeper this year but isn't as stacked at the top with teams like the Thunder and Spurs not having great years.

Again i see another PSD poster skimming through my posts, misrepresenting my opinions, and then trying to rip me for it.

You're delusional if you think you can even approach my sports knowledge and reasoning level. It's really easy to jump on the bandwagon, be a pessimist, and pick and choose little things to call out my many points on.

What's hard to do is display true knowledge about the game and foretell things like the rise of Curry's greatness.

BTW - your reading comprehension is terrible because I gave the perfect example of Steve Nash as being an ALL TIME GREAT who's game didnt translate well to the playoffs.

Is it really that diffucult for you to comprehend?? hahah actually don't even bother answering because I already know the answer

How good would they have been last year with Kerr instead of Preacher Man? Of course they are going to get better but now they actually have defensive schemes to compliment their offense. And that helps debunk your Steve Nash point: those Suns teams ran but didn't play much D. If those teams played defense the way these Warriors are, they might have actually won a title. I guess Kerr and Gentry finally figured that out.

Just go away.

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 08:38 PM
How good would they have been last year with Kerr instead of Preacher Man? Of course they are going to get better but now they actually have defensive schemes to compliment their offense. And that helps debunk your Steve Nash point: those Suns teams ran but didn't play much D. If those teams played defense the way these Warriors are, they might have actually won a title. I guess Kerr and Gentry finally figured that out.

Just go away.

hahahaha some things never change

Hey buddy, lets see how well those defensive schemes work in the playoffs.

Care to make a sig bet???? Because I will.

I guarantee the GSW will not win a ring this year and will be lucky to make the finals. I'm sorry pal put high paced offensive teams that rely on 3pts and jump shooting dont do well in the playoffs historically.

How about you man up with some knowledge or go away. Im the real deal here pal

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 08:39 PM
I am PSDs Stephen A Smith - except more right

Deal with it already

PowerHouse
03-30-2015, 09:02 PM
There are deserving MVP-caliber players with MVP-caliber seasons who get snubbed every single year, its inevitable. They should start handing out 2 MVPs per year,one for the East and one for the West.

jerellh528
03-30-2015, 09:10 PM
There are deserving MVP-caliber players with MVP-caliber seasons who get snubbed every single year, its inevitable. They should start handing out 2 MVPs per year,one for the East and one for the West.

All the top candidates are from the west though.

PowerHouse
03-30-2015, 09:40 PM
All the top candidates are from the west though.

This year thats true actually lol. Maybe just two MVPs period.

jerellh528
03-30-2015, 09:47 PM
This year thats true actually lol. Maybe just two MVPs period.

They need a true mvp award, likely recipient this year would be a guy like davis. And also like a Michael Jordan award or some other cheesy name for the best/most dominant player.

PowerHouse
03-30-2015, 09:58 PM
They need a true mvp award, likely recipient this year would be a guy like davis. And also like a Michael Jordan award or some other cheesy name for the best/most dominant player.

Im with you on that. They need to broaden it up somehow. Baseball has 2 MVPs, football has the MVP and the offensive POY. But basketball?

Saddletramp
03-30-2015, 10:41 PM
I am PSDs Stephen A Smith - except more right

Deal with it already

I didn't think that it was possible but you are more annoying than him, I'll give you that. And manning up is sig bets these days. Good grief.

And I like how you totally ignored Valade's points. Good job.

"Curry is an all time great but won't be a playoff factor, just like Nash."
But the Warriors actually play defense to go along with their record breaking offense and the playoffs is when defemse matters most, that's one of the reasons why those Suns teams never won a title.
"Their defense won't matter in the playoffs."

You're crazy. Please go away. I'll do you one better, I'll go away. There's just no point.

Lionel20
03-30-2015, 10:45 PM
Harden leads Curry in BB-ref Win Shares.. But Player Value Shares more accurately divides credit, especially defensively.

Full Team Breakdowns:

Rockets 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
James Harden 14.6 11.3
Trevor Ariza 5.6 6.1
Don Motiejunas 4.8 5.6
Pat Beverley 3.5 3.8
Jason Terry 3.1 3.9
Corey Brewer 2.6 3.5
Josh Smith 1.8 3.5
Dwight Howard 3 3.5
K Papanikolaou0.6 0.8
Joey Dorsey 1.6 2.2
Terrence Jones 2.4 2.6
Tarik Black 0.9 0.8
Isaiah Canaan 0.7 0.8
Nick Johnson -0.1 -0.6
Pablo Prigioni 0.3 0.3
Fran Garcia -0.2 -0.2
Troy Daniels 0 -0.5
Alexey Shved 0 0.0
Clint Capela -0.3 -1.4
K.J. McDaniels -0.1 -1.0
Total Team Wins 45 45


Warriors 60 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Stephen Curry 14.2 13.2
Draymond Green 8 8.0
Klay Thompson 8 8.8
Harrison Barnes 6.4 6.4
Andre Iguodala 4.8 5.4
Andrew Bogut 4.6 5.1
Shaun Livingston 3.1 2.9
Marreese Speights3.7 3.8
Leandro Barbosa 2.4 2.7
David Lee 3.1 3.2
Justin Holiday 1.1 1.7
Festus Ezeli 1.2 1.3
Brandon Rush -0.4 -1.1
James M McAdoo 0.4 0.7
Ognjen Kuzmic 0.3 0.4
Total Team Wins 61 62


Cavs 48 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Kyrie Irving 9.7 8.1
Kevin Love 8.4 7.9
LeBron James 9.5 9.2
Tr Thompson 6.3 6.4
J.R. Smith 3.4 3.6
M Dellavedova 1.6 1.5
Shawn Marion 1.6 1.8
Timofey Mozgov 3.6 3.8
Dion Waiters 0.5 1.5
Iman Shumpert 1.1 2.0
An Varejao 1.9 2.3
Mike Miller 0.3 -0.2
James Jones 1.2 1.2
Joe Harris 0.3 -0.2
Bren Haywood 0 -0.3
A.J. Price -0.1 0.0
Ken Perkins -0.2 -0.6
Louis Amundson 0 -0.2
Will Cherry 0 -0.1
Alex Kirk 0 0.0
Total Team Wins 49 48


I watched the Cavs this entire season, Kyrie is not more valuable than LeBron is to the Cavs, yet BB-Ref wins shares insist so.

Some people want to use Usg% alone to show that Harden is more valuable than Curry, if that's the case then LeBron should be more valuable than Harden this year. I doubt many people would make that argument.

As far as efficiency, Curry has an Alternate Win Score (factored in PPG form) of 33.39, Harden 26.80.

Harden GP 72
TOV% = 15.0
TS% = .602
AST% = 34.7

Curry GP 71
TOV% = 14.3
TS% = .632
AST% = 39.0

Curry's been the "better" player, and the "better" player is always the more "valuable" player. I'm really not much of a fan of Curry, but he should easily win the award this season... although there is usually some type of ignorance or hypothetical involved in the voting.

Lionel20
03-30-2015, 11:34 PM
Unfortunately for Houston fans, Beverly now also going down was probably the best case scenario for Harden's MVP bid if they can secure that 3 seed, and especially if they get the 2 seed. It does adjust my earlier opinion that this award is already shut because it drives home a narrative for Harden (still winning at a high level despite the plethora of injuries), but ultimately it might be a moot point if Curry stays at this level and the Warriors continue to roll. It would be really tough for voters not to give a fresh face + now arguably most popular player in the league the MVP with how great he's been if the Warriors push close to 70 wins. Remember, this was a team that was projected to win 50 and have an outside chance at HCA.

It was a bonus for Harden that the Warriors/Rockets matchups were all months ago now. It would've been must-watch TV for particular voters and with the way he/they rolled Harden and the Rox, the debate would end there (especially being that they were healthy for some).

We have enough stat metrics now that the MVP voting has become more of a circus where sportswriters and broadcasters want to feel important. Most of the numbers point to Curry, about the only thing that would award it to Harden is a product of this anti-analytics movement.. which is on its last leg anyway.

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 11:44 PM
I didn't think that it was possible but you are more annoying than him, I'll give you that. And manning up is sig bets these days. Good grief.

And I like how you totally ignored Valade's points. Good job.

"Curry is an all time great but won't be a playoff factor, just like Nash."
But the Warriors actually play defense to go along with their record breaking offense and the playoffs is when defemse matters most, that's one of the reasons why those Suns teams never won a title.
"Their defense won't matter in the playoffs."

You're crazy. Please go away. I'll do you one better, I'll go away. There's just no point.

I don't believe the GSW will win a ring this year.

Yes plz go away thanks

PraiseJesus
03-30-2015, 11:45 PM
Harden leads Curry in BB-ref Win Shares.. But Player Value Shares more accurately divides credit, especially defensively.

Full Team Breakdowns:

Rockets 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
James Harden 14.6 11.3
Trevor Ariza 5.6 6.1
Don Motiejunas 4.8 5.6
Pat Beverley 3.5 3.8
Jason Terry 3.1 3.9
Corey Brewer 2.6 3.5
Josh Smith 1.8 3.5
Dwight Howard 3 3.5
K Papanikolaou0.6 0.8
Joey Dorsey 1.6 2.2
Terrence Jones 2.4 2.6
Tarik Black 0.9 0.8
Isaiah Canaan 0.7 0.8
Nick Johnson -0.1 -0.6
Pablo Prigioni 0.3 0.3
Fran Garcia -0.2 -0.2
Troy Daniels 0 -0.5
Alexey Shved 0 0.0
Clint Capela -0.3 -1.4
K.J. McDaniels -0.1 -1.0
Total Team Wins 45 45


Warriors 60 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Stephen Curry 14.2 13.2
Draymond Green 8 8.0
Klay Thompson 8 8.8
Harrison Barnes 6.4 6.4
Andre Iguodala 4.8 5.4
Andrew Bogut 4.6 5.1
Shaun Livingston 3.1 2.9
Marreese Speights3.7 3.8
Leandro Barbosa 2.4 2.7
David Lee 3.1 3.2
Justin Holiday 1.1 1.7
Festus Ezeli 1.2 1.3
Brandon Rush -0.4 -1.1
James M McAdoo 0.4 0.7
Ognjen Kuzmic 0.3 0.4
Total Team Wins 61 62


Cavs 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Kyrie Irving 9.7 8.1
Kevin Love 8.4 7.9
LeBron James 9.5 9.2
Tr Thompson 6.3 6.4
J.R. Smith 3.4 3.6
M Dellavedova 1.6 1.5
Shawn Marion 1.6 1.8
Timofey Mozgov 3.6 3.8
Dion Waiters 0.5 1.5
Iman Shumpert 1.1 2.0
An Varejao 1.9 2.3
Mike Miller 0.3 -0.2
James Jones 1.2 1.2
Joe Harris 0.3 -0.2
Bren Haywood 0 -0.3
A.J. Price -0.1 0.0
Ken Perkins -0.2 -0.6
Louis Amundson 0 -0.2
Will Cherry 0 -0.1
Alex Kirk 0 0.0
Total Team Wins 49 48


I watched the Cavs this entire season, Kyrie is not more valuable than LeBron is to the Cavs, yet BB-Ref wins shares insist so.

Some people want to use Usg% alone to show that Harden is more valuable than Curry, if that's the case then LeBron should be more valuable than Harden this year. I doubt many people would make that argument.

As far as efficiency, Curry has an Alternate Win Score (factored in PPG form) of 33.39, Harden 26.80.

Harden GP 72
TOV% = 15.0
TS% = .602
AST% = 34.7

Curry GP 71
TOV% = 14.3
TS% = .632
AST% = 39.0

Curry's been the "better" player, and the "better" player is always the more "valuable" player. I'm really not much of a fan of Curry, but he should easily win the award this season... although there is usually some type of ignorance or hypothetical involved in the voting.

Curry all the way nice breakdown

jerellh528
03-30-2015, 11:49 PM
Harden leads Curry in BB-ref Win Shares.. But Player Value Shares more accurately divides credit, especially defensively.

Full Team Breakdowns:

Rockets 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
James Harden 14.6 11.3
Trevor Ariza 5.6 6.1
Don Motiejunas 4.8 5.6
Pat Beverley 3.5 3.8
Jason Terry 3.1 3.9
Corey Brewer 2.6 3.5
Josh Smith 1.8 3.5
Dwight Howard 3 3.5
K Papanikolaou0.6 0.8
Joey Dorsey 1.6 2.2
Terrence Jones 2.4 2.6
Tarik Black 0.9 0.8
Isaiah Canaan 0.7 0.8
Nick Johnson -0.1 -0.6
Pablo Prigioni 0.3 0.3
Fran Garcia -0.2 -0.2
Troy Daniels 0 -0.5
Alexey Shved 0 0.0
Clint Capela -0.3 -1.4
K.J. McDaniels -0.1 -1.0
Total Team Wins 45 45


Warriors 60 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Stephen Curry 14.2 13.2
Draymond Green 8 8.0
Klay Thompson 8 8.8
Harrison Barnes 6.4 6.4
Andre Iguodala 4.8 5.4
Andrew Bogut 4.6 5.1
Shaun Livingston 3.1 2.9
Marreese Speights3.7 3.8
Leandro Barbosa 2.4 2.7
David Lee 3.1 3.2
Justin Holiday 1.1 1.7
Festus Ezeli 1.2 1.3
Brandon Rush -0.4 -1.1
James M McAdoo 0.4 0.7
Ognjen Kuzmic 0.3 0.4
Total Team Wins 61 62


Cavs 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Kyrie Irving 9.7 8.1
Kevin Love 8.4 7.9
LeBron James 9.5 9.2
Tr Thompson 6.3 6.4
J.R. Smith 3.4 3.6
M Dellavedova 1.6 1.5
Shawn Marion 1.6 1.8
Timofey Mozgov 3.6 3.8
Dion Waiters 0.5 1.5
Iman Shumpert 1.1 2.0
An Varejao 1.9 2.3
Mike Miller 0.3 -0.2
James Jones 1.2 1.2
Joe Harris 0.3 -0.2
Bren Haywood 0 -0.3
A.J. Price -0.1 0.0
Ken Perkins -0.2 -0.6
Louis Amundson 0 -0.2
Will Cherry 0 -0.1
Alex Kirk 0 0.0
Total Team Wins 49 48


I watched the Cavs this entire season, Kyrie is not more valuable than LeBron is to the Cavs, yet BB-Ref wins shares insist so.

Some people want to use Usg% alone to show that Harden is more valuable than Curry, if that's the case then LeBron should be more valuable than Harden this year. I doubt many people would make that argument.

As far as efficiency, Curry has an Alternate Win Score (factored in PPG form) of 33.39, Harden 26.80.

Harden GP 72
TOV% = 15.0
TS% = .602
AST% = 34.7

Curry GP 71
TOV% = 14.3
TS% = .632
AST% = 39.0

Curry's been the "better" player, and the "better" player is always the more "valuable" player. I'm really not much of a fan of Curry, but he should easily win the award this season... although there is usually some type of ignorance or hypothetical involved in the voting.

Interesting to see a "stat guy" such as yourself dismiss this nugget of data and your reasoning behind it being you "watched" cavs games this year, it almost sounds like you're referring to the "eye test" being more valuable than a statistical formula in this instance.

jerellh528
03-30-2015, 11:51 PM
We have enough stat metrics now that the MVP voting has become more of a circus where sportswriters and broadcasters want to feel important. Most of the numbers point to Curry, about the only thing that would award it to Harden is a product of this anti-analytics movement.. which is on its last leg anyway.

This statement to me seems arrogant and misinformed.

PatsSoxKnicks
03-31-2015, 12:23 AM
We have enough stat metrics now that the MVP voting has become more of a circus where sportswriters and broadcasters want to feel important. Most of the numbers point to Curry, about the only thing that would award it to Harden is a product of this anti-analytics movement.. which is on its last leg anyway.

That's flat out false- the most predictive metric of them all- RPM's WAR- has Harden as the leader (go look at the APBR prediction contest- many of the leading metrics which are beating out Vegas are SPMs or projections based on RPM). Many of the metrics you've cited are pretty flawed and not used much any more- or well they're used by people who are out of date with the analytics movement or I guess Berri's crowd, who are all wrong anyways.

lol, please
03-31-2015, 12:30 AM
Harden leads Curry in BB-ref Win Shares.. But Player Value Shares more accurately divides credit, especially defensively.

Full Team Breakdowns:

Rockets 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
James Harden 14.6 11.3
Trevor Ariza 5.6 6.1
Don Motiejunas 4.8 5.6
Pat Beverley 3.5 3.8
Jason Terry 3.1 3.9
Corey Brewer 2.6 3.5
Josh Smith 1.8 3.5
Dwight Howard 3 3.5
K Papanikolaou0.6 0.8
Joey Dorsey 1.6 2.2
Terrence Jones 2.4 2.6
Tarik Black 0.9 0.8
Isaiah Canaan 0.7 0.8
Nick Johnson -0.1 -0.6
Pablo Prigioni 0.3 0.3
Fran Garcia -0.2 -0.2
Troy Daniels 0 -0.5
Alexey Shved 0 0.0
Clint Capela -0.3 -1.4
K.J. McDaniels -0.1 -1.0
Total Team Wins 45 45


Warriors 60 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Stephen Curry 14.2 13.2
Draymond Green 8 8.0
Klay Thompson 8 8.8
Harrison Barnes 6.4 6.4
Andre Iguodala 4.8 5.4
Andrew Bogut 4.6 5.1
Shaun Livingston 3.1 2.9
Marreese Speights3.7 3.8
Leandro Barbosa 2.4 2.7
David Lee 3.1 3.2
Justin Holiday 1.1 1.7
Festus Ezeli 1.2 1.3
Brandon Rush -0.4 -1.1
James M McAdoo 0.4 0.7
Ognjen Kuzmic 0.3 0.4
Total Team Wins 61 62


Cavs 50 Actual Wins

Player BB-Ref WS PVS
Kyrie Irving 9.7 8.1
Kevin Love 8.4 7.9
LeBron James 9.5 9.2
Tr Thompson 6.3 6.4
J.R. Smith 3.4 3.6
M Dellavedova 1.6 1.5
Shawn Marion 1.6 1.8
Timofey Mozgov 3.6 3.8
Dion Waiters 0.5 1.5
Iman Shumpert 1.1 2.0
An Varejao 1.9 2.3
Mike Miller 0.3 -0.2
James Jones 1.2 1.2
Joe Harris 0.3 -0.2
Bren Haywood 0 -0.3
A.J. Price -0.1 0.0
Ken Perkins -0.2 -0.6
Louis Amundson 0 -0.2
Will Cherry 0 -0.1
Alex Kirk 0 0.0
Total Team Wins 49 48


I watched the Cavs this entire season, Kyrie is not more valuable than LeBron is to the Cavs, yet BB-Ref wins shares insist so.

Some people want to use Usg% alone to show that Harden is more valuable than Curry, if that's the case then LeBron should be more valuable than Harden this year. I doubt many people would make that argument.

As far as efficiency, Curry has an Alternate Win Score (factored in PPG form) of 33.39, Harden 26.80.

Harden GP 72
TOV% = 15.0
TS% = .602
AST% = 34.7

Curry GP 71
TOV% = 14.3
TS% = .632
AST% = 39.0

Curry's been the "better" player, and the "better" player is always the more "valuable" player. I'm really not much of a fan of Curry, but he should easily win the award this season... although there is usually some type of ignorance or hypothetical involved in the voting.

Well said. Good post.

ewing
03-31-2015, 01:59 AM
We have enough stat metrics now that the MVP voting has become more of a circus where sportswriters and broadcasters want to feel important. Most of the numbers point to Curry, about the only thing that would award it to Harden is a product of this anti-analytics movement.. which is on its last leg
anyway.

you really think there is an anti-analytics movement? Like the Church trying to silence Galileo?

FlashBolt
03-31-2015, 02:10 AM
Jerell, that WS thing is outdated or something. James is a hair below Kyrie and that's not including his missed games as well. Update that or stop using false arguments. Let's be honest here: Kyrie is a beast. LeBron isn't MVP and lost his case quite some time now but Kyrie is not better than LeBron.. stop being arrogant.

jerellh528
03-31-2015, 02:43 AM
Jerell, that WS thing is outdated or something. James is a hair below Kyrie and that's not including his missed games as well. Update that or stop using false arguments. Let's be honest here: Kyrie is a beast. LeBron isn't MVP and lost his case quite some time now but Kyrie is not better than LeBron.. stop being arrogant.

I've never said kyrie is better than Lebron. But he's outplayed him quite often this year.

FlashBolt
03-31-2015, 03:08 AM
I've never said kyrie is better than Lebron. But he's outplayed him quite often this year.

Like I said, Kyrie is a beast. No doubt he would be a 24/5/5 player without Bron this season. But he hasn't outplayed James.. a couple of games? Sure, but let's be honest and stop being a hater.

Verbal Christ
03-31-2015, 03:10 AM
That's flat out false- the most predictive metric of them all- RPM's WAR- has Harden as the leader (go look at the APBR prediction contest- many of the leading metrics which are beating out Vegas are SPMs or projections based on RPM). Many of the metrics you've cited are pretty flawed and not used much any more- or well they're used by people who are out of date with the analytics movement or I guess Berri's crowd, who are all wrong anyways.

:clap:

jerellh528
03-31-2015, 03:16 AM
Like I said, Kyrie is a beast. No doubt he would be a 24/5/5 player without Bron this season. But he hasn't outplayed James.. a couple of games? Sure, but let's be honest and stop being a hater.

Lol, okay dude. I'm not going to get into this with you. It's plain as freakin day light that kyrie has outplayed james multiple times this season. At least 25%. If you can't see that, I have nothing else to say. Please don't call me names. Goodnight.

FlashBolt
03-31-2015, 03:22 AM
Lol, okay dude. I'm not going to get into this with you. It's plain as freakin day light that kyrie has outplayed james multiple times this season. At least 25%. If you can't see that, I have nothing else to say. Please don't call me names. Goodnight.

Since when did 15 games=often? By your logic, Klay has outplayed Curry quite often.

Lionel20
03-31-2015, 08:25 AM
That's flat out false- the most predictive metric of them all- RPM's WAR- has Harden as the leader (go look at the APBR prediction contest- many of the leading metrics which are beating out Vegas are SPMs or projections based on RPM). Many of the metrics you've cited are pretty flawed and not used much any more- or well they're used by people who are out of date with the analytics movement or I guess Berri's crowd, who are all wrong anyways.

lol I'm in APBR forums all the time. Alternate Win Score, which much of my work is based on, shouldn't be considered flawed compared to RPM. I like to hear your case for AWS being flawed. I factored in some RPM in my defensive ratings in a gumbo of a metric I've created that correlates with wins higher than anything I've seen including ESPN's RPM. RPM is a great stat however, it's a bit too general, most advanced statisticians, even if they lead off w it, combine it with other stats to interpret player performance. For instance RPM WAR registers LeBron a whole two wins ahead of Durant last season, Curry produced more offensive wins than Durant, and that's just last seasons information which is all that's available on the ESPN site. I happen to think RPM undervalued Durant some, researching the other "outdated" metrics that focus more on the individual plays he actually made.

My work gives 2013-14 to Durant, 14.36 to LeBron 13.00. And again for this year, if you exercise a little additional research beyond simply RPM, you'll find that most of the numbers, when you break them all down or pull them altogether, favor Curry.

valade16
03-31-2015, 09:22 AM
Correct, VERY efficient from a PPP/TS% perspective in very large part due to his ability to get to the line and hit the gimme, but still fairly significantly less efficient than Curry's at right now. All in all I'd say Curry's pretty clearly a better natural scorer, and if he wasn't sitting so many 4th quarters due to blowouts (17 and counting now I think) then the increased volume would also be there, but that overall it's a worthy argument. Also, he's the PG and demands an absurd amount of attention (the most in the league according to 'gravity' the last time I saw the stat posted); he's more likely to pass than shoot in comparison to Harden.

Going back to his original point that Curry is better at every facet of basketball than Harden - I do actually think that's an argument that could be made, though many are close. Rebounding's a particularly interesting one because while Curry is probably better relative to his position and leads the entire NBA in "long" rebounds (boards > 10 feet I think is the measure? could be off), Harden's going to get more by nature due to his size/positioning.

The only way one could make a compelling argument is assuming every skill that is close favors Curry. First off, Harden is better at driving simply because his drives lead to way more points per drive thanks to his ability to draw fouls. So he'll always have that over Curry.

If you compare their entire career statistics they are virtually identical:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=curryst01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

If you look at just this season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=curryst01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

You find that Harden is a better rebounder (offensive, defensive and total), better at blocking shots (for what that is worth) and scores more (Per game, Per 36, Per 100 poss.).

Also, while you show some good metrics for Curry's dominance, it's worth noting that Harden is similarly high on most of those lists as well. As for Gravity stats, Harden is 6th. As for TS% and scoring efficiency, among Guards with more than 1,000 minutes played this season Curry is 2nd behind Korver in TS% and Harden is 4th (behind J.J. Redick) so he is still among the most efficient players in the game.

I think the only way you can claim that curry is better at every single solitary basketball skill is if you are a Dubs fan.

Verbal Christ
03-31-2015, 12:23 PM
The only way one could make a compelling argument is assuming every skill that is close favors Curry. First off, Harden is better at driving simply because his drives lead to way more points per drive thanks to his ability to draw fouls. So he'll always have that over Curry.

If you compare their entire career statistics they are virtually identical:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=curryst01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

If you look at just this season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=curryst01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

You find that Harden is a better rebounder (offensive, defensive and total), better at blocking shots (for what that is worth) and scores more (Per game, Per 36, Per 100 poss.).

Also, while you show some good metrics for Curry's dominance, it's worth noting that Harden is similarly high on most of those lists as well. As for Gravity stats, Harden is 6th. As for TS% and scoring efficiency, among Guards with more than 1,000 minutes played this season Curry is 2nd behind Korver in TS% and Harden is 4th (behind J.J. Redick) so he is still among the most efficient players in the game.

I think the only way you can claim that curry is better at every single solitary basketball skill is if you are a Dubs fan.

:clap:

Dubs fans are on their way to another champioship didnt you hear?

valade16
03-31-2015, 12:38 PM
:clap:

Dubs fans are on their way to another champioship didnt you hear?

lol, I actually think the Warriors are going to win the Championship. If I had to pick it would be either them or the Spurs.

I just don't see any team that can stop the Warriors.

Verbal Christ
03-31-2015, 12:48 PM
lol, I actually think the Warriors are going to win the Championship. If I had to pick it would be either them or the Spurs.

I just don't see any team that can stop the Warriors.

the numbers will lead you to believe that. their fans will convince you. i'm infintely curious to see how that team reacts to the barfights that will happen on the court, people will try and push them around if not flat out send headhunters for Curry/Klay, their experience will come into play. Game on the line I'd still think Spurs would perform better in those situations and Pop would outcoach Kerr. Its going to be the best playoffs in recent memory I think.

tredigs
03-31-2015, 03:27 PM
The only way one could make a compelling argument is assuming every skill that is close favors Curry. First off, Harden is better at driving simply because his drives lead to way more points per drive thanks to his ability to draw fouls. So he'll always have that over Curry.

If you compare their entire career statistics they are virtually identical:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=curryst01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

If you look at just this season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=curryst01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

You find that Harden is a better rebounder (offensive, defensive and total), better at blocking shots (for what that is worth) and scores more (Per game, Per 36, Per 100 poss.).

Also, while you show some good metrics for Curry's dominance, it's worth noting that Harden is similarly high on most of those lists as well. As for Gravity stats, Harden is 6th. As for TS% and scoring efficiency, among Guards with more than 1,000 minutes played this season Curry is 2nd behind Korver in TS% and Harden is 4th (behind J.J. Redick) so he is still among the most efficient players in the game.

I think the only way you can claim that curry is better at every single solitary basketball skill is if you are a Dubs fan.

You're essentially just rehashing everything I said.

I already discussed the scoring/rebounding and agree that Harden is a more effective driver in the sense that he is better at drawing contact at the rim, despite not quite being as crafty or finishing at as high as a level as Curry will. James has a lot of size on Curry; Steph could certainly attempt to draw more contact but goes for the finish or dish instead. Often times it's a dish to Bogut or out to Dray for 3 if his man over commits. Different methods but I'll give Harden the edge on driving due to the fouls.

As I said I agree that it's close, but that reasonable arguments can be made for Curry > Harden in virtually every facet outside of drawing fouls (which ties together closely to drives).


the numbers will lead you to believe that. their fans will convince you. i'm infintely curious to see how that team reacts to the barfights that will happen on the court, people will try and push them around if not flat out send headhunters for Curry/Klay, their experience will come into play. Game on the line I'd still think Spurs would perform better in those situations and Pop would outcoach Kerr. Its going to be the best playoffs in recent memory I think.

Dubs fans are right to have a "championship or bust" mentality. They have rolled through the regular season at a top 5 historically dominant level. The "jump shooting team who can't handle aggression" mantra is both ignorant and outdated, but we shall see. Only team I see beating them is SAS, and they'll have to be perfect (which they can be).

nastynice
03-31-2015, 03:38 PM
:clap:

Dubs fans are on their way to another champioship didnt you hear?

you say that as tho its ridiculous. As tho we are not a consensus top 3, even top 2, pick to win it all...

valade16
03-31-2015, 03:59 PM
You're essentially just rehashing everything I said.

I already discussed the scoring/rebounding and agree that Harden is a more effective driver in the sense that he is better at drawing contact at the rim, despite not quite being as crafty or finishing at as high as a level as Curry will. James has a lot of size on Curry; Steph could certainly attempt to draw more contact but goes for the finish or dish instead. Often times it's a dish to Bogut or out to Dray for 3 if his man over commits. Different methods but I'll give Harden the edge on driving due to the fouls.

As I said I agree that it's close, but that reasonable arguments can be made for Curry > Harden in virtually every facet outside of drawing fouls (which ties together closely to drives).

Granted it's not a skill guards need to be proficient in but Harden is definitely better at blocking shots than Curry. I would also point out this is the first season where Curry actually has a better % w/3Ft of the basket as Harden. So while he has been better at driving the ball this season (hence why he should be MVP) historically, Harden has been a better finisher around the rim.

xzcfhxh
04-01-2015, 12:12 PM
Raw stats and eye test is the best barometer http://financehotela.com/yellow/images/62.gifhttp://financehotela.com/yellow/images/30.gif

Scoots
04-01-2015, 02:13 PM
Curry and Harden are both worthy of MVP. I'd go with Curry just because I don't like the way Harden plays. I don't like watching him, it's that simple for me.

It's not a "homer" thing since I've never thought the Warriors have had an MVP before ... it's just that Curry and Harden have both been awesome this year and I prefer to watch Curry.

tredigs
04-01-2015, 03:07 PM
Curry and Harden are both worthy of MVP. I'd go with Curry just because I don't like the way Harden plays. I don't like watching him, it's that simple for me.

It's not a "homer" thing since I've never thought the Warriors have had an MVP before ... it's just that Curry and Harden have both been awesome this year and I prefer to watch Curry.

It's not "homer" to say Curry, you're just coming at it from a fans perspective (NBA fan) rather than an analytic take.

Regardless, this award's done. It's on to the playoffs.

Chronz
04-01-2015, 03:11 PM
Can you really call it a race when Curry has been winning the entire way?

FlashBolt
04-01-2015, 05:30 PM
It's Curry's now. I had it Harden but this kid Curry has been unstoppable. He's been lighting it up on insane efficiency and Warriors are on a 10 game winning streak. On to the playoffs like Tredigs said.

nastynice
04-01-2015, 05:51 PM
Can you really call it a race when Curry has been winning the entire way?

I really think it was a toss up earlier in the season. But yea, these last month or 2, I think Curry's really been tightening his grip on mvp. Every passing week, I feel I'd be more and more surprised if Harden wins it.

Saddletramp
04-01-2015, 08:03 PM
Yeah, it's over. Curry will get it. Harden's had to carry the load way too much this year and is starting to slow down. I would have liked to have seen a real race with two healthy teams but give the Warriors FO credit, they've built a heck of a team. That tank job they did a few years back and those dumps of Biedrins and Jefferson to allow them to get other guys. And the Ellis/Bogut trade was huge.

Curry took a paycut for the betterment of the team, right? But Klay didn't and I doubt Green will. Wonder if that will be an issue at some point.

nastynice
04-01-2015, 08:49 PM
lol

Saddletramp
04-01-2015, 09:54 PM
lol

Which part of my post is worthy of an lol? That Harden hasn't had the chance to sit multiple 4th quarters because the load has been squarely on his shoulders the whole year and is now not as fresh as Curry? Or that the Rockets have been decimated by injuries while the Warriors have fared pretty well in that department and I don't think they've missed more than one guy out of their lineup for almost every game? Or that the Warriors tanked a few years back to get that last high draft pick before they started being in the playoffs? Or that Utah rolled the dice and took a couple of Warriors mistakes for a year hoping that the draft picks that accompanied them would pan out in their favor? Or that Bogut has been huge for them and that that trade was one of their turning points? Or was it the paycut question? I'm not saying Curry is jealous that Klay (and probably Green in the future) is getting paid more, but that he sacrificed a bit for the good of the team and Klay didn't and Green probably won't.

Which part? You're the last Warriors fan that's still grounded to Earth so I'm actually curious.

Scoots
04-01-2015, 10:10 PM
Which part? You're the last Warriors fan that's still grounded to Earth so I'm actually curious.

Hey! I'm grounded! :) Really!

Verbal Christ
04-01-2015, 10:30 PM
:crickets:

Saddletramp
04-01-2015, 10:32 PM
Hey! I'm grounded! :) Really!

Oh yeah. You don't post enough but I haven't seen asinine comments come your way.

lol, please
04-01-2015, 11:08 PM
:clap:

Dubs fans are on their way to another champioship didnt you hear?
I'd love to hear the argument favoring another team. We are the class of the league.

lol, please
04-01-2015, 11:12 PM
lol
Saddle tramp is drunk. He can't make an objective posy about the warriors to save his own life.

Htownballa1622
04-02-2015, 12:08 AM
I'd love to hear the argument favoring another team. We are the class of the league.

The Warriors are great but YOU are NOT equal to ANYTHING that has to do with class.

FURTHEST thing from it. You're actually rather pompous.

Saddletramp
04-02-2015, 12:10 AM
Sad thing is, I really like watching them play, love the Bay Area and respect everything their FO has done. They are pretty much a perfectly constructed team and have a lot of insanely fun to watch players. I'm obviously hoping the Rockets go all the way but realistically, if the Warriors don't at least go to the Finals, I'll be beyond shocked. And for the reasons mentioned above, I hope they do. Some of the Warriors fans around here are just getting a little too big for their britches and saying dopey things now that the team they root for is finally living up to its potential, so that kinda slows my fondness. Some Rockets fans have been (justifiably) called out for ****** things that they've posted and it just kinda goes both ways.

And I'm not drunk, I'm loaded up on meds.

Htownballa1622
04-02-2015, 12:14 AM
Sad thing is, I really like watching them play, love the Bay Area and respect everything their FO has done. They are pretty much a perfectly constructed team and have a lot of insanely fun to watch players. I'm obviously hoping the Rockets go all the way but realistically, if the Warriors don't at least go to the Finals, I'll be beyond shocked. And for the reasons mentioned above, I hope they do. Some of the Warriors fans around here are just getting a little too big for their britches and saying dopey things now that the team they root for is finally living up to its potential, so that kinda slows my fondness. Some Rockets fans have been (justifiably) called out for ****** things that they've posted and it just kinda goes both ways.

And I'm not drunk, I'm loaded up on meds.

I couldn't agree more. They WERE my 2nd favorite team but I find myself rooting more against them now because of FEW posters then i snap out and watch beautiful basketball.

I've long said i'm a huge Curry fan but it gets annoying hearing a couple ppl talk like they've had the history of the Lakers when they've had such a DRY spell for all these years.

But in actuality they're my 3rd favorite team I hope to win it all(I think they WILL win it all) after Houston and Cleveland.

nastynice
04-02-2015, 12:17 AM
Which part of my post is worthy of an lol? That Harden hasn't had the chance to sit multiple 4th quarters because the load has been squarely on his shoulders the whole year and is now not as fresh as Curry? Or that the Rockets have been decimated by injuries while the Warriors have fared pretty well in that department and I don't think they've missed more than one guy out of their lineup for almost every game? Or that the Warriors tanked a few years back to get that last high draft pick before they started being in the playoffs? Or that Utah rolled the dice and took a couple of Warriors mistakes for a year hoping that the draft picks that accompanied them would pan out in their favor? Or that Bogut has been huge for them and that that trade was one of their turning points? Or was it the paycut question? I'm not saying Curry is jealous that Klay (and probably Green in the future) is getting paid more, but that he sacrificed a bit for the good of the team and Klay didn't and Green probably won't.

Which part? You're the last Warriors fan that's still grounded to Earth so I'm actually curious.

bro, you just sound mad salty. ease up baby, ease up, its just a bunch of tall ****ers putting a ball inside a hoop

same theme from our games earlier this year. just dont take me too serious

nastynice
04-02-2015, 12:25 AM
I'd love to hear the argument favoring another team. We are the class of the league.

i'd say spurs are. But this is our year to steal that title!! muhahaha :smoking::smoking:

PowerHouse
04-02-2015, 12:37 AM
41 points 17 assists 4 steals in a huge win over the red-hot Blazers for CP3 tonight. The dude has been doing it all season long offensively and defensively and for some wacked out reason he continues to get no respect, never mentioned in the mvp candidates. I dont think he will get more votes than Curry but for sure he deserves a hell of a lot more recognition than Westbrook.

Cal827
04-02-2015, 12:41 AM
I'm done trolling Bosstone around, I think James Harden should win MVP :laugh2:

That team's been without a interior weapon all season, where he's pretty much the only scorer, and the team is in the top 3 of the West.

I love Curry, and I'm not gonna be mad if he ends up getting it (which he likely will) as he is also a deserving candidate (and not considered an *** by some people for comments lol), but the talent around him makes it a ton easier. I remember when people were arguing at the beginning of the NBA season on who had the best backcourt in the NBA, and the options were:

Wall-Beal
Lowry-Derozan
Curry-Thompson
Irving-Waiters

....
:laugh2: I don't know who was distributing the high-quality crack, but I digress...

Either way, I'm happy that we will see both guys garner MVP votes, with RW. It's funny that Lebron might be fairly low down the voting (although it would be ******** if he didn't get any votes)

It's makes me angrier that our former dumbass GM BC ****ed up in that potential Bosh to GS deal :facepalm:

Scoots
04-02-2015, 12:42 AM
Oh yeah. You don't post enough but I haven't seen asinine comments come your way.

I don't post enough? I've got 3400 posts more than you :)

Nah, I know what you meant. Most of my posts are in the Warriors area.

Scoots
04-02-2015, 12:58 AM
41 points 17 assists 4 steals in a huge win over the red-hot Blazers for CP3 tonight. The dude has been doing it all season long offensively and defensively and for some wacked out reason he continues to get no respect, never mentioned in the mvp candidates. I dont think he will get more votes than Curry but for sure he deserves a hell of a lot more recognition than Westbrook.

I've heard CP3 in a lot of MVP lists. ESPN magazine has him as their #1 PG. It's totally wrong to say he gets no respect. That said, his antics have turned a LOT of people off.

PowerHouse
04-02-2015, 01:01 AM
I've heard CP3 in a lot of MVP lists. ESPN magazine has him as their #1 PG. It's totally wrong to say he gets no respect. That said, his antics have turned a LOT of people off.

I guess Im mostly referring to PSDers that never make any mention.

What antics by the way? :confused:

FraziersKnicks
04-02-2015, 06:07 AM
CP3 with the FIRST 41 point, 17 assist, 4 steal, 1 turnover game ever. The only two others to get at least 41 and 17 in a game are Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway and CP3 had the best shooting %, took the least shots, turned the ball over the least and had the most steals out of those guys.

According to basketball-reference's gamescore, last night was the 2nd best individual performance of the season (behind Kyrie's 57 against the Spurs).

Pretty incredible and in my eyes still the best POINT GUARD in the league (I think Curry is the better PLAYER now, but CP3 is still a better POINT GUARD, before all you Warriors fans come down on me like a ton of bricks.)

FraziersKnicks
04-02-2015, 06:18 AM
Another 30% shooting, 6 turnover triple double for Westbrook in a loss. I wonder when people will realise that he's actually hurting his team with these performances?

Scoots
04-02-2015, 11:07 AM
Another 30% shooting, 6 turnover triple double for Westbrook in a loss. I wonder when people will realise that he's actually hurting his team with these performances?

I think a lot of people realize it, but it makes good TV so the TV people keep shouting about it.

And even as inefficient as he is ... he is still helping his team. They are just that bad.

Scoots
04-02-2015, 11:09 AM
What antics by the way? :confused:

Really?!?!

Flopping
Fouling opposing players on nearly every play and complaining loudly whenever he's caught.
Flopping
Complaining to the refs loudly every time an opponent breathes on him
Flopping

lol, please
04-02-2015, 11:57 AM
Really?!?!

Flopping
Fouling opposing players on nearly every play and complaining loudly whenever he's caught.
Flopping
Complaining to the refs loudly every time an opponent breathes on him
Flopping
Seriously. That's dudes out of his tree if he is trying to credit hardens flopping. That's reaching on a whole nother level. Just complete the drive/layup. Klay can do it and he's a supposedly inferior player.

Scoots
04-02-2015, 12:07 PM
Seriously. That's dudes out of his tree if he is trying to credit hardens flopping. That's reaching on a whole nother level. Just complete the drive/layup. Klay can do it and he's a supposedly inferior player.

The subject was CP3 though Harden flops too he's more of an artist at it than CP3 is.

lol, please
04-02-2015, 12:09 PM
The subject was CP3 though Harden flops too he's more of an artist at it than CP3 is.
Yea cp3 has that bad habit as well. Its pathetic.

Verbal Christ
04-02-2015, 01:00 PM
pfffff HAHA 'dude' try's hard to troll, gets called out, brushes it off ... continues trolling.

LOL

Scoots
04-02-2015, 01:38 PM
Playas gon' play :)

Chronz
04-02-2015, 03:07 PM
CP3 with the FIRST 41 point, 17 assist, 4 steal, 1 turnover game ever. The only two others to get at least 41 and 17 in a game are Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway and CP3 had the best shooting %, took the least shots, turned the ball over the least and had the most steals out of those guys.

According to basketball-reference's gamescore, last night was the 2nd best individual performance of the season (behind Kyrie's 57 against the Spurs).

Pretty incredible and in my eyes still the best POINT GUARD in the league (I think Curry is the better PLAYER now, but CP3 is still a better POINT GUARD, before all you Warriors fans come down on me like a ton of bricks.)

Nah man, this is Curry and RWB world now. Only the playoffs will convince me CP3 is on their level and thats just because Im an optimistic Clipper fan. Realistically tho, CP3 has lost his luster. Hes still a joy to watch and I will never abandon my love for his game. 5"11 and doing the things he does, truly inspirational.

PowerHouse
04-02-2015, 03:08 PM
Really?!?!

Flopping
Fouling opposing players on nearly every play and complaining loudly whenever he's caught.
Flopping
Complaining to the refs loudly every time an opponent breathes on him
Flopping

You know we're talking about Chris Paul and not Lebron right?

IKnowHoops
04-02-2015, 03:22 PM
CP3 with the FIRST 41 point, 17 assist, 4 steal, 1 turnover game ever. The only two others to get at least 41 and 17 in a game are Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway and CP3 had the best shooting %, took the least shots, turned the ball over the least and had the most steals out of those guys.

According to basketball-reference's gamescore, last night was the 2nd best individual performance of the season (behind Kyrie's 57 against the Spurs).

Pretty incredible and in my eyes still the best POINT GUARD in the league (I think Curry is the better PLAYER now, but CP3 is still a better POINT GUARD, before all you Warriors fans come down on me like a ton of bricks.)

These two get so slept on. They would be top PG in the league in there prime right now, and 1,2 any given night.

Scoots
04-02-2015, 03:25 PM
You know we're talking about Chris Paul and not Lebron right?

I assume you are joking as I made a similar point to another poster earlier in the thread.

Scoots
04-02-2015, 03:27 PM
These two get so slept on. They would be top PG in the league in there prime right now, and 1,2 any given night.

Both of them would LOVE to play in the post Nash NBA where coaches support the motion outside game we have now.

PowerHouse
04-02-2015, 04:51 PM
Nah man, this is Curry and RWB world now. Only the playoffs will convince me CP3 is on their level and thats just because Im an optimistic Clipper fan. Realistically tho, CP3 has lost his luster. Hes still a joy to watch and I will never abandon my love for his game. 5"11 and doing the things he does, truly inspirational.

While it is true we look at the big stage of the playoffs as a gauge of a player's greatness, what the hell have Curry or Westbrook done in the playoffs? Curry/Westbrook have established themselves on a higher plane than CP3 because of playoffs?

Maybe its just a joke. If so, my bad.

Chronz
04-02-2015, 05:08 PM
While it is true we look at the big stage of the playoffs as a gauge of a player's greatness, what the hell have Curry or Westbrook done in the playoffs? Curry/Westbrook have established themselves on a higher plane than CP3 because of playoffs?

Maybe its just a joke. If so, my bad.

Well, I havent looked at the numbers in depth but Westbrook seemed to outplay him in their series victory, I'd say that counts for something. Sure he had the better team but winning still matters doesn't it?

Curry has had an MVP type season, that gives him the edge going into this year unless CP3 steps it up come playoffs or Curry regresses. Thats what I mean by the playoffs determining this. CP3 is at that stage in his career where the playoffs are what matter to him, regular season stats and victories come secondary, he cant afford to go full bore when hes at this stage. Those younger guys can but CP3 is strictly judged by playoff performances from here on out. Just like any other 30 year old IMO.


Im not joking with you, I adore everything about CP3, but there comes a time to admit defeat. Its not there yet but the fat lady is getting her lungs prepped for that final song.

G_S_W
04-02-2015, 08:55 PM
Curry is simply a freak. Curry and the warriors are just embarrassing the rest of the league on pretty much a nightly basis.

As far as Harden, while this point may not be directly relevant to the regular season mvp vote, you really wonder just how skilled he actually is when his efficiency drops off the cliff in the playoffs.

What's likely happening is that the subjective 50/50 calls he gets EVERY TIME in the paint regular season is just deemed "physical play, play on" in the playoffs.

Is Harden a highly efficient top 2/3 MVP candidate, or is he an inefficient chucker who craps out in the playoffs because he depends so heavily on the refs' calls? Harden still has a lot of time to establish a reputation as a clutch player in the postseason, but he's been consistently awful for both OKC and HOU in the postseason.

PraiseJesus
04-02-2015, 09:39 PM
Curry is simply a freak. Curry and the warriors are just embarrassing the rest of the league on pretty much a nightly basis.

As far as Harden, while this point may not be directly relevant to the regular season mvp vote, you really wonder just how skilled he actually is when his efficiency drops off the cliff in the playoffs.

What's likely happening is that the subjective 50/50 calls he gets EVERY TIME in the paint regular season is just deemed "physical play, play on" in the playoffs.

Is Harden a highly efficient top 2/3 MVP candidate, or is he an inefficient chucker who craps out in the playoffs because he depends so heavily on the refs' calls? Harden still has a lot of time to establish a reputation as a clutch player in the postseason, but he's been consistently awful for both OKC and HOU in the postseason.

Bingo

Seems like every year the refs have a favorite player to blow whistles for

Kobe then Wade then Lebron then Drose now Harden

I personally hate that kind of basketball

Tony_Starks
04-02-2015, 10:39 PM
Harden has made a believer out of me this regular season. The only bad thing I can say about him besides flopping is he has Bosstone as a #1 fan.

If I had a vote it would still go to Russ tho....

Vee-Rex
04-02-2015, 11:17 PM
My MVP vote would still go to Curry, but man, Harden is really really close IMO. What he has done for the Rockets is just insane. Battling it with Memphis for the 2nd seed in the West. You'd think they have a team loaded with talent but that's not the case.

Westy is doing it for OKC too. These guys are playing out of their minds.

mightybosstone
04-02-2015, 11:28 PM
Harden has made a believer out of me this regular season. The only bad thing I can say about him besides flopping is he has Bosstone as a #1 fan.

If I had a vote it would still go to Russ tho....

:cheers::love:

Verbal Christ
04-03-2015, 03:40 AM
Curry is simply a freak. Curry and the warriors are just embarrassing the rest of the league on pretty much a nightly basis.

As far as Harden, while this point may not be directly relevant to the regular season mvp vote, you really wonder just how skilled he actually is when his efficiency drops off the cliff in the playoffs.

What's likely happening is that the subjective 50/50 calls he gets EVERY TIME in the paint regular season is just deemed "physical play, play on" in the playoffs.

Is Harden a highly efficient top 2/3 MVP candidate, or is he an inefficient chucker who craps out in the playoffs because he depends so heavily on the refs' calls? Harden still has a lot of time to establish a reputation as a clutch player in the postseason, but he's been consistently awful for both OKC and HOU in the postseason.

I'm sorry but there is no factual basis for what you are saying. I think its subjective to Curry fans and is a weak argument. Answer me this ..,. what exactly has Curry done in the playoffs? Clown on Hardens game all you want he's been to the finals. He's built to grind. I'll just post the following and let you get back to your stories.

2014 Playoffs

Harden 27/6/5
Curry 26/8/4

jerellh528
04-03-2015, 01:08 PM
In the latest ladder, harden is number 1.
http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/sekou_smith/04/03/kia-race-to-the-mvp-ladder-james-harden-stephen-curry-battling-for-top-spot/index.html

jason
04-03-2015, 01:56 PM
In the latest ladder, harden in number 1.
http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/sekou_smith/04/03/kia-race-to-the-mvp-ladder-james-harden-stephen-curry-battling-for-top-spot/index.html

I was just watching this

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/72836/is-the-mvp-race-already-over

FlashBolt
04-03-2015, 02:55 PM
I'm going to go out and say that Harden has brought this MVP discussion back into question. In my honest opinion, this is a CO-MVP season. I cannot discredit Harden from this anymore. I'm comparing his roster vs Curry's roster and it is not even close. GSW has an insanely stacked team. Shaun Livingston is their backup PG... Andre Iguodala isn't even a starter. This guy could start on any other team easily. Then you have David Lee, Andrew Bogut, a DPOY candidate in Green, a top two SG in Thompson, Harrison Barnes needs his own team cause he is an easy 18 point player. I cannot find a single player outside Dwight who can compare to that. I like to think of it this way, would the Warriors be a playoff team without Curry? They probably would. I just can't see Houston being a playoff team if Harden wasn't Harden. But at the same time, Curry is leading his team to what I believe will be a 69-13 season (which is incredibly special), and has been lighting it up the entire season with insane shooting (44% 8 3PA). Can't knock him either.

Scoots
04-03-2015, 03:32 PM
The Warriors are not just the team with the best record, they are having a top 10 regular season ALL-TIME. The comparison within this season is not sufficient. Curry is the top player on the best team since Jordan's 72 win Bulls which was 19 years ago. I agree that the Rockets would be a lot worse without Harden so would the Warriors, and the distance from 50+ wins to 60+ is HUGE.

I think Harden is easily one of the top 2 but Curry is the MVP for me.

nastynice
04-03-2015, 04:05 PM
Who do you guys think draws more attention on offense?

I only seen a handful of rockets games this year, so I can't say for sure, but from what I've seen Harden definitely didn't draw the same kind of attention as Curry. Just by dribbling inside the 3 point line he'll get two to THREE defenders at least front on him regularly. The other night vs the clippers, Chris paul was straight guarding him underneath our own rim as though he was under their rim.

At least from what I've seen, I don't think Harden draws defenders the way Curry does. Although when he drives to the basket he definitely starts seeing extra players, but Curry seems to get that type of attention 20ft away from the basket.

Saddletramp
04-03-2015, 04:17 PM
Harden gets plenty of double teams from all over the floor, face guards, his opponents best defender, etc...... just like Curry. The Rockets just don't have all the other talent that'll make them pay for the double on as consistent a basis.

tredigs
04-04-2015, 12:47 PM
I'm going to go out and say that Harden has brought this MVP discussion back into question. In my honest opinion, this is a CO-MVP season. I cannot discredit Harden from this anymore. I'm comparing his roster vs Curry's roster and it is not even close. GSW has an insanely stacked team. Shaun Livingston is their backup PG... Andre Iguodala isn't even a starter. This guy could start on any other team easily. Then you have David Lee, Andrew Bogut, a DPOY candidate in Green, a top two SG in Thompson, Harrison Barnes needs his own team cause he is an easy 18 point player. I cannot find a single player outside Dwight who can compare to that. I like to think of it this way, would the Warriors be a playoff team without Curry? They probably would. I just can't see Houston being a playoff team if Harden wasn't Harden. But at the same time, Curry is leading his team to what I believe will be a 69-13 season (which is incredibly special), and has been lighting it up the entire season with insane shooting (44% 8 3PA). Can't knock him either.

Point 1: Yes, GS is much more talented than Houston. They are also much better than Houston. Kind of a moot point unless they are close as teams is it not?
Point 2: Yes, career backup PG Shaun Livingston is playing backup PG.
Point 3: Iguodala could start on GS as well. He is not on the bench because he is a worse player than Barnes.
Point 4: Same as point 1. Though no, I'm not entirely sure this team would make the playoffs without Curry. Look at his on/off, rpm, etc. It's #1 in the NBA. Try to watch them on offense closely when Curry is off compared to on and look at the ridiculous amount of spacing that he affords them.

Warriors are going to have a top 5 regular season in NBA history. Curry is absolutely beasting and putting up top 3 #'s, arguably #1. He will shortly break his own 3pt record for a season, and do it shooting >50% on 9+ attempts for over a month now with the Warriors winning every game he plays... by a lot. These things have never happened. Curry easily out-classed Harden in their h2h's in which GS won all by double digits+. Harden has been great and in some seasons would surely win, but this is an open/shut case with how great Curry and GS have been. The best argument against him is that he/they have not faltered for any period, so the consistency has become a boring topic of sorts.

nastynice
04-04-2015, 01:40 PM
Point 3: Iguodala could start on GS as well. He is not on the bench because he is a worse player than Barnes.


Kinda off topic, but great point here. I don't get why more teams don't employ a similar tactic, especially Cleveland regarding Love. Iggy is definitely a better player (notice crunch time Kerr plays the 4 starters plus Iggy) but the main benefit here is Iggy off the bench this year is better than Iggy starting last year, and Barnes starting this year is better than Barnes off the bench last year. GREAT move by Kerr.

Kerr has been doing phenomenal job with rotations, giving Klay and Curry good time without the other on the floor too, usually in 2nd and 3rd quarter

Vee-Rex
04-04-2015, 01:48 PM
I honestly think the Curry or Harden discussion is kinda moot. I can see strong arguments for both as they're both playing MVP level seasons here. It's just one of those kind of situations where vehemently arguing one over the other just doesn't work.

Lionel20
04-04-2015, 02:07 PM
I actually changed the multiplier in my formula from essentially "Win Shares*Game Played" to "Win Shares*Minutes Played". It shows a much closer race, than presented originally. Curry still should have the edge.



Name Score
Stephen Curry 12.37
James Harden 12.27
Chris Paul 11.56
Anthony Davis 10.62
LeBron James 9.25
Russell Westbrook 9.19

lol, please
04-04-2015, 03:12 PM
I honestly think the Curry or Harden discussion is kinda moot. I can see strong arguments for both as they're both playing MVP level seasons here. It's just one of those kind of situations where vehemently arguing one over the other just doesn't work.
Sorry but this just isn't true. There is overwhelming supporting evidence in favor of curry.

jerellh528
04-04-2015, 03:23 PM
I can honestly see co-mvps this yr

Verbal Christ
04-05-2015, 01:57 AM
Great win by the Warriors against a good Dallas team. Didnt seem to need Curry too much.

Saddletramp
04-05-2015, 02:49 AM
I'm going to go out and say that Harden has brought this MVP discussion back into question. In my honest opinion, this is a CO-MVP season. I cannot discredit Harden from this anymore. I'm comparing his roster vs Curry's roster and it is not even close. GSW has an insanely stacked team. Shaun Livingston is their backup PG... Andre Iguodala isn't even a starter. This guy could start on any other team easily. Then you have David Lee, Andrew Bogut, a DPOY candidate in Green, a top two SG in Thompson, Harrison Barnes needs his own team cause he is an easy 18 point player.. I cannot find a single player outside Dwight who can compare to that. I like to think of it this way, would the Warriors be a playoff team without Curry? They probably would. I just can't see Houston being a playoff team if Harden wasn't Harden. But at the same time, Curry is leading his team to what I believe will be a 69-13 season (which is incredibly special), and has been lighting it up the entire season with insane shooting (44% 8 3PA). Can't knock him either.

You know, when I saw this the other day I almost wrote a post about how a certain Warriors fan argued with me about this a few weeks ago and when I brought up what you just shared almost verbatim and other team adjusting possibilities, he just stopped responding. I guess he was "above" continuing the talk. Now he's spouting the same old "look how good Curry is, look at his stats, etc"

Last years legit MVP played very sparingly this year and the Thunders number 3 guy has missed a chunk of the season, too. Not to mention three fourths of their current starters weren't even with the team all year (2 came in at the deadline and the guy that came in earlier in the season is Deon ****ing Waiters) and they have a pretty underwhelming coach. And Westbrook is single handily keeping them in the race (while also sometimes single handily shooting them out of games) and he even missed a chunk of games. And the Thunder are just about tied with the Pelicans for the eighth spot. Tredigs, are you still thinking that, with every other team the same and Curry not playing, that the Warriors are a lesser team than the Thunder and the Pelicans?

If nothing else, with Green about to be paid anyway and Lee probably gone in the offseason, I'd imagine they'd trade Lee for a blossoming PG for a quick fix but even if they didn't, Livingston/Klay/Barnes/this new blossoming Green/and Bogut with two recent Allstars on the bench is enough to get at least a playoff spot.

lol, please
04-05-2015, 03:04 AM
Blossoming pg? Holiday is (hopefully) the future I thought Nedovic was.

Scoots
04-05-2015, 03:33 AM
Blossoming pg? Holiday is (hopefully) the future I thought Nedovic was.

You are insane.

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 05:58 AM
Look guys. Curry is the MVP. He is the best player on the best team and he has all of the stats to deserve it.

If you want even more assurance... Lets flip the script.

Put Curry with the Houston squad and Harden with the GSW team, how do things change?

In my opinion - Houston ends up with the best record and the GSW assume the Houston record.

All of the stats and metrics can't define the impact that a total player has on a team. Its my opinion that Harden would play his game (no defense, ball hogging, slowing the game up with his ticky tack fouls, and being an egotistical nub to his teammates) and Curry would play his.

Sorry kiddos but Curry is the clear cut MVP and Im sure he will contend for years to come

nastynice
04-05-2015, 08:19 AM
Just depends which story line you want to give it to. The undisputed catalyst for the team that is at worst 2nd best in the league right now, best record in the league, chance to tie 2nd best record in nba history, historic numbers as far as offensive AND defensive efficieny. Or the workhorse whose carried his team to 2nd best record in the west while dealing with multiple MAJOR injuries and missed playing time to his starting lineup, including the clear cut #2 of the team.

I think at the end of the day, its hard to pass up the first storyline, just because it has historic type potential. Add on to that that I think Curry is just a flat out better player, no one demands attention the way he does on a regular basis, and I think the quality of the dubs squad somewhat blinds people to just how big a role he plays in helping those guys be in a position to succeed. How many of those shots they hit are absolutely wide open because of the attention Curry draws, how much ball movement he is a part of in order to get guys in their rhythm, etc. Although a lot of that also comes down to coaching, where dubs obviously have the edge.

lol, please
04-05-2015, 01:10 PM
You are insane.
Wait, you aren't a fan of Holiday and don't think he can blossom into a starter if we groom him appropriately? He can't handle the starting role today, but I see him coming off the bench for curry soon enough.

lol, please
04-05-2015, 01:11 PM
Look guys. Curry is the MVP. He is the best player on the best team and he has all of the stats to deserve it.

If you want even more assurance... Lets flip the script.

Put Curry with the Houston squad and Harden with the GSW team, how do things change?

In my opinion - Houston ends up with the best record and the GSW assume the Houston record.

All of the stats and metrics can't define the impact that a total player has on a team. Its my opinion that Harden would play his game (no defense, ball hogging, slowing the game up with his ticky tack fouls, and being an egotistical nub to his teammates) and Curry would play his.

Sorry kiddos but Curry is the clear cut MVP and Im sure he will contend for years to come
Interesting perspective, I agree with your example.

Scoots
04-05-2015, 01:36 PM
Wait, you aren't a fan of Holiday and don't think he can blossom into a starter if we groom him appropriately? He can't handle the starting role today, but I see him coming off the bench for curry soon enough.

You think he's a point guard? I absolutely don't think so.

lol, please
04-05-2015, 01:38 PM
You think he's a point guard? I absolutely don't think so.
Said asandhu23 about curry 4 seasons ago. :laugh2: still immortalized on someone's sign in our forum.

Scoots
04-05-2015, 01:47 PM
Said asandhu23 about curry 4 seasons ago. :laugh2: still immortalized on someone's sign in our forum.

Fair enough, but Holiday hasn't ever played PG that I know of ... Curry had. Holiday doesn't have the passing skill, the ball handling, or the penetrating ability of Curry at Davidson. He's not even trying to be a PG. Klay Thompson is better at all of those skills than Holiday ... is Klay going to be a PG?

See? Insane.

lol, please
04-05-2015, 01:48 PM
Fair enough, but Holiday hasn't ever played PG that I know of ... Curry had. Holiday doesn't have the passing skill, the ball handling, or the penetrating ability of Curry at Davidson. He's not even trying to be a PG.
Not yet anyway. I think it's possible. Only time will tell. I think he's special.

Scoots
04-05-2015, 01:49 PM
Not yet anyway. I think it's possible. Only time will tell. I think he's special.

I think he can be special ... as a SG :)

And by the way, he's not all that young ... he's older than Thompson and Green.

lol, please
04-05-2015, 01:57 PM
I think he can be special ... as a SG :)

And by the way, he's not all that young ... he's older than Thompson and Green.
Age is an overrated metric, not at all what I meant with "time will tell". You can always keep learning and improving your game.

jerellh528
04-05-2015, 02:44 PM
Look guys. Curry is the MVP. He is the best player on the best team and he has all of the stats to deserve it.

If you want even more assurance... Lets flip the script.

Put Curry with the Houston squad and Harden with the GSW team, how do things change?

In my opinion - Houston ends up with the best record and the GSW assume the Houston record.

All of the stats and metrics can't define the impact that a total player has on a team. Its my opinion that Harden would play his game (no defense, ball hogging, slowing the game up with his ticky tack fouls, and being an egotistical nub to his teammates) and Curry would play his.

Sorry kiddos but Curry is the clear cut MVP and Im sure he will contend for years to come

Honestly both teams get worse, but Houston gets hit harder. I don't think curry can carry the offensive load the way harden can night in and night out, especially if his shot is off. He's probably able to, but until he's proven it, I'll say he can't do it.

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 03:06 PM
Said asandhu23 about curry 4 seasons ago. :laugh2: still immortalized on someone's sign in our forum.

Said by many many nubs in here. None are showing their faces lately lol

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 03:08 PM
Honestly both teams get worse, but Houston gets hit harder. I don't think curry can carry the offensive load the way harden can night in and night out, especially if his shot is off. He's probably able to, but until he's proven it, I'll say he can't do it.

HAhaHAhaH

Sorry man but you couldnt be anymore wrong. too funny though thanks for the laugh this easter morning

jerellh528
04-05-2015, 03:14 PM
hahahahah

sorry man but you couldnt be anymore wrong. Too funny though thanks for the laugh this easter morning

k

nastynice
04-05-2015, 04:27 PM
Did u guys see the stat during cle chi game? Nba MVP voting thru Twitter, harden 47%, curry 32%.

I'm VERY surprised by that, that's a HUGE lead for harden.

tredigs
04-05-2015, 04:42 PM
Did u guys see the stat during cle chi game? Nba MVP voting thru Twitter, harden 47%, curry 32%.

I'm VERY surprised by that, that's a HUGE lead for harden.

They're twitter-***** who live in the moment and just watched the Houston/OKC game. If GSW manages to beat SAS in their house tonight (I don't think they do on the b2b, but maybe) and Curry has a big night, the poll would be the exact opposite.

As far as actual voters go, it's probably close but in Curry's favor.

Verbal Christ
04-05-2015, 04:43 PM
When your 'MVP' can chill and score 11 and your team still routs a playoff team by 20 it speaks volumes to the dynamic of the TEAM. I think people are starting to come around to the level that Harden has had to carry the Rockets. If Harden wins the scoring title and the Rockets end up 2nd in the standings I think the trophy is his.

Replace Curry or Harden with an average player at their position and how much changes for each team?

tredigs
04-05-2015, 04:50 PM
When your 'MVP' can chill and score 11 and your team still routs a playoff team by 20 it speaks volumes to the dynamic of the TEAM. I think people are starting to come around to the level that Harden has had to carry the Rockets. If Harden wins the scoring title and the Rockets end up 2nd in the standings I think the trophy is his.

Maybe you're right on the 2nd point, but obviously clueless and short-sighted on the 1st. Much more goes into dominating then points (tho' Curry still crushes in that facet), and GSW is so far beyond HOU as a team that the teammates factor is sort of a moot point. Doesn't help Harden that Curry outclassed him in their matchups and GSW slayed them every time. What does help James is that those games were all months ago.

tredigs
04-05-2015, 04:52 PM
When your 'MVP' can chill and score 11 and your team still routs a playoff team by 20 it speaks volumes to the dynamic of the TEAM. I think people are starting to come around to the level that Harden has had to carry the Rockets. If Harden wins the scoring title and the Rockets end up 2nd in the standings I think the trophy is his.

Replace Curry or Harden with an average player at their position and how much changes for each team?

GSW struggles to make the playoffs and Houston is a weak 10 seed with their same solid D (still top 8 overall) holding them above water.

jason
04-05-2015, 04:58 PM
12 straight wins in 1st place by a big margin and close to the 3pt record again.. Curry is going to get MVP.

Verbal Christ
04-05-2015, 05:06 PM
GSW struggles to make the playoffs and Houston is a weak 10 seed with their same solid D (still top 8 overall) holding them above water.

Oh cmon now. ONe person isnt going to be single handedly responsible for the level of success the Dubs has had this year. If you take out Curry that team is still loaded and still contending.

Take out Harden and Houston is one of the worst teams in the West.

nastynice
04-05-2015, 05:19 PM
I understand the whole superior team argument against Curry, but I don't see why that's such a huge strike against him. I Cant say for sure but I don't rememeber being such a huge argument against Jordan or shaq with their dominant dynasty squads, or Lebron in Miami

tredigs
04-05-2015, 05:19 PM
Oh cmon now. ONe person isnt going to be single handedly responsible for the level of success the Dubs has had this year. If you take out Curry that team is still loaded and still contending.

Take out Harden and Houston is one of the worst teams in the West.

Contending?? Lmfao. They'd get rocked in the playoffs if they made it. They'd still probably be an East HCA team, but this is the West. They'd struggle to make it in.

Not sure how you can watch them play with/without Curry and come to any other conclusion. Maybe you don't watch. It's a very strong team, but absolutely nothing close to their current level without him.

nastynice
04-05-2015, 05:28 PM
I think one thing about Curry that he has over Westbrook and to lesser degree harden, is he much better at getting his guys involved. For example today's okc game, when Westbrook had the ball coming up the court, really he was the only threat to tie the game. If that's curry, and let's take the hot shooters off the court, so let's say Bogut, Lee, green, and iggy. If curry is coming up the court down 3, there are three legit threats on the court to tie the game. Whereas u give westy or harden each two 35% 3pt shooters, I don't think their game has the same effect as currys, or at least not to the same degree.

I think it's a hugely underrated part of curry game, or else why would people say he can score 11 and still win, as tho basically trying to say he doesn't need to play for them to be dominant

KnicksorBust
04-05-2015, 05:32 PM
I understand the whole superior team argument against Curry, but I don't see why that's such a huge strike against him. I Cant say for sure but I don't rememeber being such a huge argument against Jordan or shaq with their dominant dynasty squads, or Lebron in Miami

I completely agree.

#1) It ignores the fact that the player themselves helped make his teammates better.
#2) It ignores the fact that GSW has a waaaaay better record. Its not like HOU is close. Curry i leading easily the best team.

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 05:42 PM
I think one thing about Curry that he has over Westbrook and to lesser degree harden, is he much better at getting his guys involved. For example today's okc game, when Westbrook had the ball coming up the court, really he was the only threat to tie the game. If that's curry, and let's take the hot shooters off the court, so let's say Bogut, Lee, green, and iggy. If curry is coming up the court down 3, there are three legit threats on the court to tie the game. Whereas u give westy or harden each two 35% 3pt shooters, I don't think their game has the same effect as currys, or at least not to the same degree.

I think it's a hugely underrated part of curry game, or else why would people say he can score 11 and still win, as tho basically trying to say he doesn't need to play for them to be dominant

This is waht I was trying to say earlier. Harden's game is to essentially walk the ball up the court and then run and jump into people and take free throws. While that style looks good on the stat sheet it doesn't keep teammates involved and disrupts the flow of the offense.

Curry's mix of deadly shooting, eltie ball handling, and elite passing makes him special

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 05:47 PM
I understand the whole superior team argument against Curry, but I don't see why that's such a huge strike against him. I Cant say for sure but I don't rememeber being such a huge argument against Jordan or shaq with their dominant dynasty squads, or Lebron in Miami

Exactly.

The MVP isnt an award for the best player in the league... It's an award for who people want to be the face of the NBA.

In this case, Curry and his boyish features aren't as liked as much as Harden and his manly beard. It's sad to say but its the truth.

The proof is in the logic people spew out each year when they vote.

"Lebron is the best player on the best team and makes everyone better" "Lebron's stats aren't as good as player X but the MVP is all about winning"

Now those same people are saying that Curry is on a stacked team so Harden is the MVP

Give me a break

CluTcH_c1tY
04-05-2015, 05:52 PM
When your 'MVP' can chill and score 11 and your team still routs a playoff team by 20 it speaks volumes to the dynamic of the TEAM. I think people are starting to come around to the level that Harden has had to carry the Rockets. If Harden wins the scoring title and the Rockets end up 2nd in the standings I think the trophy is his.

Replace Curry or Harden with an average player at their position and how much changes for each team?
If the Warriors win 67-69 Curry is the media darling right now. They've had that team in tact all year with the least amount of injuries of all contending teams yet people don't consider continuity a big factor? Keep in mind Draymond Green went from scrub to a very good player this year. That team is loaded and like you mentioned he scores 11 and they still rout the Mavs on the road. Harden deserves the award.

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 06:04 PM
If the Warriors win 67-69 Curry is the media darling right now. They've had that team in tact all year with the least amount of injuries of all contending teams yet people don't consider continuity a big factor? Keep in mind Draymond Green went from scrub to a very good player this year. That team is loaded and like you mentioned he scores 11 and they still rout the Mavs on the road. Harden deserves the award.

hahahahaahaha

nastynice
04-05-2015, 06:04 PM
This is waht I was trying to say earlier. Harden's game is to essentially walk the ball up the court and then run and jump into people and take free throws. While that style looks good on the stat sheet it doesn't keep teammates involved and disrupts the flow of the offense.

Curry's mix of deadly shooting, eltie ball handling, and elite passing makes him special

100% agree. I've been trying to say this. If your team is struggling because they can't go from being uninvolved to involved at the drop of a hat, then maybe that's a strike against your main ball handler maybe not doing a great job getting teammates involved.

Tho I gotta disagree with the first part of your post, I think Harden is one of the best players at driving the lane this year. He ability to get around defenders is unreal, stop n step back j is on point. and that eurostep, naaaaaasty!! He has floppy tendencies for sure, but he's also got a beautiful game.

nastynice
04-05-2015, 06:06 PM
If the Warriors win 67-69 Curry is the media darling right now. They've had that team in tact all year with the least amount of injuries of all contending teams yet people don't consider continuity a big factor? Keep in mind Draymond Green went from scrub to a very good player this year. That team is loaded and like you mentioned he scores 11 and they still rout the Mavs on the road. Harden deserves the award.

meaning teams who stay healthy shouldn't have their star player as a legit mvp candidate? Didn't lebron win a couple with some healthy teams? no bueno?

Scoots
04-05-2015, 06:36 PM
Maybe, if Harden wasn't on the Rockets the supposed trash he's surrounded by would be scoring more because there would suddenly be an extra 50 possesions to go around :)

Gotta wonder what Harden's teammates think about his GM and radio guys and TV guys talking about how bad his teammates are?

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 07:04 PM
100% agree. I've been trying to say this. If your team is struggling because they can't go from being uninvolved to involved at the drop of a hat, then maybe that's a strike against your main ball handler maybe not doing a great job getting teammates involved.

Tho I gotta disagree with the first part of your post, I think Harden is one of the best players at driving the lane this year. He ability to get around defenders is unreal, stop n step back j is on point. and that eurostep, naaaaaasty!! He has floppy tendencies for sure, but he's also got a beautiful game.

Na dude...

The problem with praising his euro step and driving the lane is that it is 90% dependent on the refs calling fouls. Look at Dwayne Wade. He used to be so effective at that because the refs were calling fouls on anyone that breathed on him. Harden has been in the same cat the last couple years. At some point the refs will stop calling those fouls and ignoring his flops, then Harden goes from and MVP candidate to just a good player.

So we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I would pick Curry over Harden for my team 100 out of 100 times

mightybosstone
04-05-2015, 07:17 PM
This is waht I was trying to say earlier. Harden's game is to essentially walk the ball up the court and then run and jump into people and take free throws. While that style looks good on the stat sheet it doesn't keep teammates involved and disrupts the flow of the offense.

Curry's mix of deadly shooting, eltie ball handling, and elite passing makes him special

Wut? How many Rockets games do you watch? The dude is 6th in the entire league in total assists and 8th in assists per game. He's a phenomenal ball handler and passer, and he's easily the best playmaker on the entire roster. Sure, his game is often predicated on penetrating in iso basketball, but do you have any clue how many open corner 3-pointers that leads to? Or how much he gets the Rockets bigs involved with the pick and roll?

Seriously, I get so sick and tired of hearing about how reliant Harden is on the free throw line to be effective. Yes, he gets a large percentage of his points from the charity stripe. But the other 68 percent of his points don't come from the free throw line, and he gets hardly any love for his playmaking ability or his impact on the glass and in the passing lanes. He's become a truly elite all-around basketball player. And, no, maybe he's not quite playing at Curry's level of efficiency this season. But why does that have to diminish what he's accomplished this season or the player he's become?

I can't tell you how infuriating it is to watch that man dominate night and night out and have to come into threads like this and read ignorant, hateful posts about him with almost zero truth behind them every single day.

mightybosstone
04-05-2015, 07:28 PM
Na dude...

The problem with praising his euro step and driving the lane is that it is 90% dependent on the refs calling fouls.
:facepalm: No. It's not. Literally. Because if it was 90 percent dependent on refs calling fouls, then 90 percent of all the points he earned while Euro stepping in the lane would come from the free throw line. According to 82games, about 7.2 of Harden's points per game come around the basket. If we say that roughly 75 percent of Harden's free throw attempts come from fouls he receives around the rim (a fair number), then only about 6.6 points per game come from fouls received around the rim. Therefore, he is just as likely to score points from a layup or dunk around the basket as he is to draw a foul.


Look at Dwayne Wade. He used to be so effective at that because the refs were calling fouls on anyone that breathed on him. Harden has been in the same cat the last couple years. At some point the refs will stop calling those fouls and ignoring his flops, then Harden goes from and MVP candidate to just a good player.
You're acting as if Wade's productivity dropped off because he stopped getting to the free throw line. That's not remotely accurate. In fact, Wade averaged 9.0 FTA per game in six consecutive seasons (something Harden has done three straight years). But his dropoff in FTA not so coincidentally coincided with his dropoff in health and Lebron's arrival in Miami.

Wade didn't stop being productive because he wasn't getting calls anymore. He stopped being productive because Lebron freaking James was on his team and because his health started declining. So bringing up Wade is a completely moot point.

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 07:50 PM
:facepalm: No. It's not. Literally. Because if it was 90 percent dependent on refs calling fouls, then 90 percent of all the points he earned while Euro stepping in the lane would come from the free throw line. According to 82games, about 7.2 of Harden's points per game come around the basket. If we say that roughly 75 percent of Harden's free throw attempts come from fouls he receives around the rim (a fair number), then only about 6.6 points per game come from fouls received around the rim. Therefore, he is just as likely to score points from a layup or dunk around the basket as he is to draw a foul.


You're acting as if Wade's productivity dropped off because he stopped getting to the free throw line. That's not remotely accurate. In fact, Wade averaged 9.0 FTA per game in six consecutive seasons (something Harden has done three straight years). But his dropoff in FTA not so coincidentally coincided with his dropoff in health and Lebron's arrival in Miami.

Wade didn't stop being productive because he wasn't getting calls anymore. He stopped being productive because Lebron freaking James was on his team and because his health started declining. So bringing up Wade is a completely moot point.

Thanks for the thoughtful post... but you completely missed my point and went to left field.

I've seen this happen with players over and over. Kobe is a good example. in 2008 Kobe could run to the basket and flail his arms and yell OW! and the refs would call a foul.

In the last two years Kobe would run to the basket and get hacked 3 times and hit in the face and the refs won't call a foul. I wasn't speakign to the % of Harden's baskets, I was speaking to the % of times that refs are going to call a foul on him...

With that being the case, a large portion of Harden's value is dependent on the refs and how they want to see things.

Curry, on the other hand, is just straight Money. Not even the refs can stop him

G_S_W
04-05-2015, 08:06 PM
Harden is indeed a brilliant player, and has a beautiful game.

However, when you look at his huge dropoff in efficiency come playoff time, you have to wonder how much of his efficiency is due to star calls in the regular season vs. the "no blood no foul" philosophy of playoff officiating.

Harden's efficiency has been horrible in the postseason with houston and he had a pretty miserable finals with OKC.

He has a chance to prove his critics wrong this postseason. Let's see if HOU can get out of the first round as a potential 2 seed.

mightybosstone
04-05-2015, 08:07 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful post... but you completely missed my point and went to left field.

I've seen this happen with players over and over. Kobe is a good example. in 2008 Kobe could run to the basket and flail his arms and yell OW! and the refs would call a foul.

In the last two years Kobe would run to the basket and get hacked 3 times and hit in the face and the refs won't call a foul. I wasn't speakign to the % of Harden's baskets, I was speaking to the % of times that refs are going to call a foul on him...

With that being the case, a large portion of Harden's value is dependent on the refs and how they want to see things.

Curry, on the other hand, is just straight Money. Not even the refs can stop him

But Harden's effectiveness ISN'T directly proportional to the amount of free throws he gets. I went through every one of Harden's games this season, and he topped 20 points 23 times in which he shot 9 free throws or fewer and he topped 25 points 15 times in which he shot 9 free throws or fewer.

And even when Harden isn't getting calls or isn't having a great shooting night, he gets other players involved. Of the games in which Harden scored fewer than 25 points, Harden topped seven assists 14 times and the Rockets went 10-4 in those games.

mightybosstone
04-05-2015, 08:15 PM
Harden is indeed a brilliant player, and has a beautiful game.

However, when you look at his huge dropoff in efficiency come playoff time, you have to wonder how much of his efficiency is due to star calls in the regular season vs. the "no blood no foul" philosophy of playoff officiating.

Harden's efficiency has been horrible in the postseason with houston and he had a pretty miserable finals with OKC.

He has a chance to prove his critics wrong this postseason. Let's see if HOU can get out of the first round as a potential 2 seed.

Right, but by that same token, Curry has absolutely not been the same player in the postseason either. Last season, his WS/48 dropped from .225 to .131 in the playoffs and his PER dropped from 24.1 to 18.8. Harden saw a pretty similar dropoff last year. Really, I think both guys have a lot to prove in the playoffs this year. Not just Harden. And when you consider that both guys saw pretty huge leaps in their games this season, they'll be expected to perform at a much higher level than in previous seasons.

It's also worth mentioning that, while Harden has played poorly in two playoff series with Houston and in that Finals series against Miami, he actually has posted some pretty stellar postseason numbers in the past for OKC. Prior to that Miami series, in fact, he was pretty dominant in that postseason in helping the Thunder advance to the Finals.

FlashBolt
04-05-2015, 08:18 PM
Right, but by that same token, Curry has absolutely not been the same player in the postseason either. Last season, his WS/48 dropped from .225 to .131 in the playoffs and his PER dropped from 24.1 to 18.8. Harden saw a pretty similar dropoff last year. Really, I think both guys have a lot to prove in the playoffs this year. Not just Harden. And when you consider that both guys saw pretty huge leaps in their games this season, they'll be expected to perform at a much higher level than in previous seasons.

It's also worth mentioning that, while Harden has played poorly in two playoff series with Houston and in that Finals series against Miami, he actually has posted some pretty stellar postseason numbers in the past for OKC. Prior to that Miami series, in fact, he was pretty dominant in that postseason in helping the Thunder advance to the Finals.

Yeah, but last two seasons he was completely atrocious. He lost the game for his team on multiple occasions. Not saying he deserves a bad reputation for the playoffs because he did play well (up to the Finals) for us but he has ZERO credibility in the playoffs. He has to step up this season or else he'll just be a regular season MVP. I gotta tell you though, this Harden has been carrying the Rockets to levels I couldn't imagine. I had the Rockets fighting for the 8th spot before the season began. Totally didn't expect this.

PraiseJesus
04-05-2015, 08:21 PM
But Harden's effectiveness ISN'T directly proportional to the amount of free throws he gets. I went through every one of Harden's games this season, and he topped 20 points 23 times in which he shot 9 free throws or fewer and he topped 25 points 15 times in which he shot 9 free throws or fewer.

And even when Harden isn't getting calls or isn't having a great shooting night, he gets other players involved. Of the games in which Harden scored fewer than 25 points, Harden topped seven assists 14 times and the Rockets went 10-4 in those games.

HAhahaA

So i have PSD members claiming that Harden is superior to Curry becuase "he can get to the free thorw line at a high rate" Now I have a PSD member telling me that Harden's value has nothing to do with free throws.

You can spin it however you want pal but Curry is the MVP and is superior to Harden in every aspect of playing

mightybosstone
04-05-2015, 08:30 PM
HAhahaA

So i have PSD members claiming that Harden is superior to Curry becuase "he can get to the free thorw line at a high rate" Now I have a PSD member telling me that Harden's value has nothing to do with free throws.
Ummm.... No. You're taking what I'm saying completely out of context. No one is saying that Harden's value has nothing to do with free throws. On the contrary, that makes up a huge part of his value as it does any superstar player who can get to the free throw line at a high rate. I'm saying that free throws alone don't make Harden the great player he is. He does A LOT of things well, and you're giving him absolutely zero credit for those things.


You can spin it however you want pal but Curry is the MVP and is superior to Harden in every aspect of playing
Except Curry ISN'T superior to Harden in every aspect of playing. I would give Curry a significant edge in terms of shooting and passing. But he isn't on Harden's level yet in terms of penetrating and scoring around the rim, which is a huge part of being an elite scorer. Harden is also a lot more productive in other areas of the game, like rebounding and shot blocking, and with the advancements he made this season on the defensive end, I'd say he's probably on par with Curry on that end. And he's certainly a stronger, more physical player than Curry, which allows him to do things on both ends of the floor that Curry can't.

So, yeah, I do think Curry is a slightly better overall basketball player right now. And, yes, I do think he will win the MVP. But to say that Curry is better in every single aspect of basketball is just beyond stupid. No competent NBA fan would agree to that assessment.

tredigs
04-05-2015, 09:14 PM
Ummm.... No. You're taking what I'm saying completely out of context. No one is saying that Harden's value has nothing to do with free throws. On the contrary, that makes up a huge part of his value as it does any superstar player who can get to the free throw line at a high rate. I'm saying that free throws alone don't make Harden the great player he is. He does A LOT of things well, and you're giving him absolutely zero credit for those things.


Except Curry ISN'T superior to Harden in every aspect of playing. I would give Curry a significant edge in terms of shooting and passing. But he isn't on Harden's level yet in terms of penetrating and scoring around the rim, which is a huge part of being an elite scorer. Harden is also a lot more productive in other areas of the game, like rebounding and shot blocking, and with the advancements he made this season on the defensive end, I'd say he's probably on par with Curry on that end. And he's certainly a stronger, more physical player than Curry, which allows him to do things on both ends of the floor that Curry can't.

So, yeah, I do think Curry is a slightly better overall basketball player right now. And, yes, I do think he will win the MVP. But to say that Curry is better in every single aspect of basketball is just beyond stupid. No competent NBA fan would agree to that assessment.
Curry's actually an elite finisher at the rim at this point; superior to Harden and % wise (68%) at peak TP status. His touch and level of difficulty around the rim are as good as I've seen from a point. And relative to their position I'd put Curry clearly above Harden defensively. Harden may have made strides, but so did Curry. He guards other points now (isn't hidden like he was under Jackson) and consistently stays in front of his man and is in their face forcing turnovers. Most steals in the NBA despite playing 32 mpg and #3 among points in DRPM (just behind Bledsoe/Rubio, and above Wall/Lowry/Rondo).

Verbal Christ
04-05-2015, 09:16 PM
Curry didnt help his cause tonight thats for sure, Dubs got dominated.

CluTcH_c1tY
04-05-2015, 09:18 PM
HAhahaA

So i have PSD members claiming that Harden is superior to Curry becuase "he can get to the free thorw line at a high rate" Now I have a PSD member telling me that Harden's value has nothing to do with free throws.

You can spin it however you want pal but Curry is the MVP and is superior to Harden in every aspect of playing
Better at every aspect? I'll give you shooting and slightly better passing but posts like these should make you question your homerism.

Lionel20
04-05-2015, 10:01 PM
What makes this award so close btw Harden/Curry is that Harden in 2nd in MPG, Curry is 50th. (I've updated my analysis on the MVP Race in the OP)

It's obvious that Curry is the more efficient player this season, TS%, higher AST%, TOV%. Defense is always difficult to value, but Curry does have 1.82 DRPM to Harden's .72. Curry is just not on the floor as much as Harden. Harden's logged almost 350 more minutes than Curry has.

tredigs
04-05-2015, 10:46 PM
Curry didnt help his cause tonight thats for sure, Dubs got dominated.

Actually he did. He played very good, especially in the 3rd when he just started going NOVA to start the half and scored 13 points in 4 minutes. Didn't matter, though. Nobody else showed up and the Spurs are playing too damn good to do that to @home.

5 more threes on 50% from three also. He showed break his 3pt record again against the Blazers or Wolves next week. It'll be a nice gold star for voters to recognize.

In March he put up 24/3/8 on 49/52/96. Breaking the record for 3's made in a month by well over 10. And he sat a game. Dubs went 15-2 (he sat one of the two). I'd say he's closing off the season pretty decently.

nastynice
04-05-2015, 11:17 PM
Both players are actually closing like savages. Both have kind of elevated their play as of late (which is saying something since they were both pretty much the mvp candidates all year), gettin primed up for the playoffs

Lionel20
04-06-2015, 08:37 PM
Both players are actually closing like savages. Both have kind of elevated their play as of late (which is saying something since they were both pretty much the mvp candidates all year), gettin primed up for the playoffs

With 5 games left, I think this is shaping up to be one of the closest races I've scored. My method is not official of course, but it's much less arbitrary than the actual MVP voting process in determining the true best player in the NBA each season.

2014-15

Name Score
Stephen Curry 12.50
James Harden 12.48





Here's how my statistical model applies to other extremely tight races from previous years



2010-11

Name Score
Dwight Howard 13.49
LeBron James 13.41

2007-08

Name Score
Chris Paul 13.99
LeBron James 13.88

2006-07

Name Score
LeBron James 12.01
Kobe Bryant 11.91

1980-81

Name Score
Julius Erving 12.93
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 12.92

1964-65

Name Score
Bill Russell 18.20
Wilt Chamberlain 18.08

valade16
04-07-2015, 09:21 AM
Does anyone think it's possible to actually get Co-MVPs? I think that would be the first time ever correct?

lol, please
04-07-2015, 04:45 PM
Actually he did. He played very good, especially in the 3rd when he just started going NOVA to start the half and scored 13 points in 4 minutes. Didn't matter, though. Nobody else showed up and the Spurs are playing too damn good to do that to @home.

5 more threes on 50% from three also. He showed break his 3pt record again against the Blazers or Wolves next week. It'll be a nice gold star for voters to recognize.

In March he put up 24/3/8 on 49/52/96. Breaking the record for 3's made in a month by well over 10. And he sat a game. Dubs went 15-2 (he sat one of the two). I'd say he's closing off the season pretty decently.

Exactly this. valade is running on fumes here arguing against Curry.

valade16
04-07-2015, 05:04 PM
Exactly this. valade is running on fumes here arguing against Curry.

:laugh2: when have I argued against Curry winning MVP? I've said he should be MVP through the entire thread.

The only thing I objected to is someone saying Curry is better at literally every basketball skill than Harden, something I proved demonstrably false.

Verbal Christ
04-07-2015, 05:58 PM
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/listen-to-your-heart-james-harden-is-the-mvp/


But shame aside, some truths are too obvious to ignore. What’s happened with the Rockets is more incredible than anything else in the league this year. There’s only one difference between Houston’s roster and the Sacramento Kings, and that is James Harden.


Look, winning should absolutely matter in any MVP conversation. It’s just amazing that everyone’s pretending that argument helps Curry more than Harden. The Rockets should be in the gutter right now.



Harden MVP case: Only players to average same pts/ast/reb/stl as Beard has this year are Jordan (1989) Bird (1987) LeBron (2008)

— Ramona Shelburne (@ramonashelburne) April 5, 2015


Cherry picked for emphasis ;)

xnick5757
04-08-2015, 09:27 AM
Ramona Shelburne @ramonashelburne

Harden MVP case: Only players to average same pts/ast/reb/stl as Beard has this year are Jordan (1989) Bird (1987) LeBron (2008)


Harden has dragged the Rockets to the 2 seed basically by himself.

It comes down to what you define MVP as. Best player on the best team? Its Curry. Player that has been the most valuable to his team? Its Harden.

Curry's more of a fan favorite though because people don't appreciate the genius of Harden + MoreyBall