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View Full Version : Westbrook with another Triple double



nickdymez
03-20-2015, 11:24 PM
This is a pretty sick string of games we are seeing from this guy. Planting his feet into a hall of fame career.

jerellh528
03-20-2015, 11:29 PM
Nothing more I can say besides he's a man beast.

bucketss
03-20-2015, 11:39 PM
good thing he didn't take 30+ shots this time.

WHODAT8o8
03-20-2015, 11:55 PM
Nah but hes still trash though.... Shoots the ball way to much and never passes. :rolleyes:

LakersIn5
03-21-2015, 12:15 AM
Westbrick

Jeffy25
03-21-2015, 12:58 AM
that usage tho

LakersIn5
03-21-2015, 01:38 AM
^okc has nobody else to use

Tony_Starks
03-21-2015, 01:46 AM
He can get all the triple doubles he wants, he still plays a inefficient losers style of basketball. No wonder Kobe is his hero SMH....

MTar786
03-21-2015, 02:02 AM
westbrook finally getting his just due. he deserved it. although tonight he had a great game he didnt shoot well. but a TD never the less. hes been playing great lately. whoever bashes his game tonight should try to remember they just beat the hawks without durant ibaka and kanter who imo are the 3 best players other than westbrook on the team. not to mention these are all heavy pressure must win games. and westy is taking care of business. MVP imo

MTar786
03-21-2015, 02:04 AM
He can get all the triple doubles he wants, he still plays a inefficient losers style of basketball. No wonder Kobe is his hero SMH....

well kobe has 5 rings. and westbrook is the only reason the thunder have any life in the west. so iduno if that deserves to be called loser ball... but hey, to each his own.

Mr_Jones
03-21-2015, 02:13 AM
i can't get enough of this metamucil

tredigs
03-21-2015, 02:22 AM
So ****ing funny. I'm knee deep in college right now but seeing this thread I almost blind wrote, "let me guess - 8 for 24 with 9 turnovers?" 8 for 24 with 6 turnovers. it writes itself.

Yes, he's a beast. He's also a wreck and they have absolutely no chance to win a series under his guide.

jerellh528
03-21-2015, 02:35 AM
Can't believe ppl are bashing his game tonight. Almost single handily beat a great team. 36 point on 24 shots isn't terrible, not to mention a triple double with 14 assists. Westbrook is turning into that dude that can't seem to please anyone. It resulted in a victory is the key thing here. I for one, will be rooting for him the rest of the way, he's quckly climbing up my list of today's favorite players.

tredigs
03-21-2015, 02:42 AM
Can't believe ppl are bashing his game tonight. Almost single handily beat a great team. 36 point on 24 shots isn't terrible, not to mention a triple double with 14 assists. Westbrook is turning into that dude that can't seem to please anyone. It resulted in a victory is the key thing here. I for one, will be rooting for him the rest of the way, he's quckly climbing up my list of today's favorite players.

His game was part of a multitude of factors in what resulted in an OKC victory. That I'll give you.

I also love this trend of saying FG totals + point totals without showcasing how many offensive possessions were also taken up by FT attempts or how many were threes. Granted, Westbrook makes his FT's. But still, it's a hilariously empty stat without context. 8 for 24 is absolutely terrible unless every shot is a three. Any way you cut it.

chi-townlove1
03-21-2015, 03:05 AM
Loving Wes. And laughing at all you stat geek losers who hate on what the kid is doing. He's not yours so you don't like him. Get off your high horses.

jerellh528
03-21-2015, 03:52 AM
His game was part of a multitude of factors in what resulted in an OKC victory. That I'll give you.

I also love this trend of saying FG totals + point totals without showcasing how many offensive possessions were also taken up by FT attempts or how many were threes. Granted, Westbrook makes his FT's. But still, it's a hilariously empty stat without context. 8 for 24 is absolutely terrible unless every shot is a three. Any way you cut it.

He still had what, a .610 ts%?

nickdymez
03-22-2015, 12:17 PM
Can't believe ppl are bashing his game tonight. Almost single handily beat a great team. 36 point on 24 shots isn't terrible, not to mention a triple double with 14 assists. Westbrook is turning into that dude that can't seem to please anyone. It resulted in a victory is the key thing here. I for one, will be rooting for him the rest of the way, he's quckly climbing up my list of today's favorite players.
I completely agree with this. I'm also getting sick of these stat geeks ruining basketball with their absurd analysis of the game. Bottom line his team won, do what it takes to win.

Jamiecballer
03-22-2015, 12:21 PM
He can get all the triple doubles he wants, he still plays a inefficient losers style of basketball. No wonder Kobe is his hero SMH....

is that true? do we know this?

Jeffy25
03-22-2015, 02:21 PM
Loving Wes. And laughing at all you stat geek losers who hate on what the kid is doing. He's not yours so you don't like him. Get off your high horses.

No, he is just rather inefficient



And to nick, how does sharing stats 'ruin the game?'

MTar786
03-23-2015, 01:09 AM
and again another triple double this time with 17 assists 4 steals and 2 blocks.. but i can already tell the haters are gonna cry about his shooting percentage in 5,4,3,2........

SanAntonioSpurs23
03-23-2015, 02:47 AM
All give credit where credit is due. Dude is playing at a high level for sure. Still think he is a cancer though.

raiderposting
03-23-2015, 02:55 AM
All give credit where credit is due. Dude is playing at a high level for sure. Still think he is a cancer though.

You think Westbrook is a cancer but you'll know what cancer is when it hits you or someone you love.

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 02:58 AM
He's inefficient shot selection wise but you have to give this guy credit. For someone to grab 8 triple doubles in 13 games? That's INSANE. He plays like a bullet; just nonstop. This guy has the biggest heart in basketball. He's the best athlete in basketball right now.

Goose17
03-23-2015, 08:52 AM
He's inefficient shot selection wise but you have to give this guy credit. For someone to grab 8 triple doubles in 13 games? That's INSANE. He plays like a bullet; just nonstop. This guy has the biggest heart in basketball. He's the best athlete in basketball right now.

Yeah it's impressive in some ways. If he didn't force as many shots and moved the ball around more think how much more efficient he could be...and how many more assists he could get.

The turnovers aren't helping his case either.

JustinTime
03-23-2015, 09:02 AM
Yeah it's impressive in some ways. If he didn't force as many shots and moved the ball around more think how much more efficient he could be...and how many more assists he could get.

The turnovers aren't helping his case either.

The guy had 17 assists and you want him to move the ball around more?

jerellh528
03-23-2015, 09:33 AM
Yeah it's impressive in some ways. If he didn't force as many shots and moved the ball around more think how much more efficient he could be...and how many more assists he could get.

The turnovers aren't helping his case either.

He could be more efficient taking less shots/ picking more effecient spots, , but okc also probably wouldn't be one of the hotter teams in the NBA if westy did that.

Goose17
03-23-2015, 09:59 AM
The guy had 17 assists and you want him to move the ball around more?

Yes. Are you not allowed to pass after you make 17 assists or something? Is that a new rule?

Think about. If half the shots he bricked had been passes to a team mate with a better look, what would his numbers look like? His team mates can obviously score if he's dropping 17 dimes. So why not drop more? Why not trust them even more? Why take so many crappy shots yourself? Where's the logic?

Goose17
03-23-2015, 10:01 AM
He could be more efficient taking less shots/ picking more effecient spots, , but okc also probably wouldn't be one of the hotter teams in the NBA if westy did that.

Why not? If he's taking smarter shots and not forcing the issue it results in less wasted possessions which results in more points. It results in less turnovers which results in less points given up.

They would be better if he played smarter. Problem is I don't think he can play smarter. He's a skilled and very athletic player. But he's not a smart player.

ewing
03-23-2015, 10:08 AM
Yes. Are you not allowed to pass after you make 17 assists or something? Is that a new rule?

Think about. If half the shots he bricked had been passes to a team mate with a better look, what would his numbers look like? His team mates can obviously score if he's dropping 17 dimes. So why not drop more? Why not trust them even more? Why take so many crappy shots yourself? Where's the logic?

b/c there is no logic or plan. He is getting this many assist for the same reason that he taking so many bad shots. He is going 100 mph every time down. You think Russel has any idea what is going to present itself when he is going that speed? If he just "moved the ball" more he would have both less attempts and less assists. If you think he should pull it back some and as a result "the team" would be more efficient that is one thing but you can't expect him be in Russell Westbrook attack mode all the time an make good decisions all the time- its not possible

Tony_Starks
03-23-2015, 10:41 AM
I absolutely love the fact that he is going to force some haters with calculators to begrudgingly give him some MVP votes. He is definitely deserving of the award but there's way too many stat geeks that vote, and they can always use the teams record as the traditional excuse....

KnicksorBust
03-23-2015, 11:23 AM
Westbrook is consistently getting +10 assists because he commands so much attention on defense. If he started walking the ball up the court swinging it around the perimeter that would cut down his turnovers but it would also significantly cut back on easy baskets. I love the aggressive transition style of basketball he is playing. The turnovers actually don't bother me as much as the shot selection.

HoopsDrive
03-23-2015, 11:51 AM
The guy has an unbelievable motor. It's the right player in the situation you need, down so many key players you need someone that can do what he's doing. It's reckless, it's inefficient, it's downright ugly at times but it's necessary. The win streak speaks for itself, they're holding onto that 8th spot fighting off 2 teams, I mean, by this point I thought the Pels would have taken a 1-2 game lead. Wins against the Bulls, Hawks and Heat are nothing to scoff at especially when every game counts.

Of course you'd rather see him be more efficient while still getting it done but under the circumstances you take what you can get and given the fact they're winning down so many key players that's pretty remarkable. I don't think he wins the MVP but his play is deserving of consideration.

Chronz
03-23-2015, 12:33 PM
I absolutely love the fact that he is going to force some haters with calculators to begrudgingly give him some MVP votes. He is definitely deserving of the award but there's way too many stat geeks that vote, and they can always use the teams record as the traditional excuse....

so in other words, they would have both the new school AND old school way of thinking inn their favor? How exactly does that help ur percieved point of view. Not that i agree cuz you haven't made any actual statistical claims but it sounds like you're giving the voters legit excuses to ignore him

Goose17
03-23-2015, 01:26 PM
If you think he should pull it back some and as a result "the team" would be more efficient that is one thing

That is exactly what I'm saying.


Westbrook is consistently getting +10 assists because he commands so much attention on defense. If he started walking the ball up the court swinging it around the perimeter that would cut down his turnovers but it would also significantly cut back on easy baskets. I love the aggressive transition style of basketball he is playing. The turnovers actually don't bother me as much as the shot selection.

I disagree with the premise that it has to be one or the other. There's plenty of players who draw just as much (if not more) attention defensively and who don't take as many poor quality shots or make as many bad decisions. Now part of that is because they have a superior basketball I.Q and Westbrook is a bad decision maker in general.

But I don't see why a guy so skilled, so athletic and so passionate can't find a middle ground between running 100mph head first into turnovers and moving the ball around to find the best shot. Plenty of players have done it before him.

His shot selection is shockingly bad. And if he just eased up a little, not much, just a little. And trusted his team mates more, he might just see a boost in his FG%. Which would give critics one less thing to pick at and would probably make the team more successful in the process

KnicksorBust
03-23-2015, 02:43 PM
That is exactly what I'm saying.



I disagree with the premise that it has to be one or the other. There's plenty of players who draw just as much (if not more) attention defensively and who don't take as many poor quality shots or make as many bad decisions. Now part of that is because they have a superior basketball I.Q and Westbrook is a bad decision maker in general.

But I don't see why a guy so skilled, so athletic and so passionate can't find a middle ground between running 100mph head first into turnovers and moving the ball around to find the best shot. Plenty of players have done it before him.

His shot selection is shockingly bad. And if he just eased up a little, not much, just a little. And trusted his team mates more, he might just see a boost in his FG%. Which would give critics one less thing to pick at and would probably make the team more successful in the process

I said in my post his shot selection bothered me too? :confused:

Goose17
03-23-2015, 02:45 PM
I said in my post his shot selection bothered me too? :confused:

Just reiterating.

ballallday
03-23-2015, 03:01 PM
If IVERSON did this EVEEEERRRRYYYYYOOOOONNNNEEEEEE would be praising him and still do till this day! Barkley says it best all you stat idiots know sh*** about basketball go live in fantasy land. What west is doing is nothing short of mvp worthy although lbj should win because he is the best player in the nba (I hate him but it's fact).

Anyway all of you hating on westy shut the f up and go play fantasy ball with your nerdy friends and maybe play some 5v5 ball n learn why Westbrook is important to okc and playing God like bball.

Goose17
03-23-2015, 03:28 PM
If IVERSON did this EVEEEERRRRYYYYYOOOOONNNNEEEEEE would be praising him and still do till this day! Barkley says it best all you stat idiots know sh*** about basketball go live in fantasy land. What west is doing is nothing short of mvp worthy although lbj should win because he is the best player in the nba (I hate him but it's fact).

Anyway all of you hating on westy shut the f up and go play fantasy ball with your nerdy friends and maybe play some 5v5 ball n learn why Westbrook is important to okc and playing God like bball.

Do not feed^

ballallday
03-23-2015, 04:03 PM
I'm not looking for dinner, but thanks I'm not trolling... simply stating when IVERSON did this everyone loved him and handed him a mvp trophy, but westy does it and suddenly since we have advanced stats everyone is on his case.

Jamiecballer
03-23-2015, 04:06 PM
I'm not looking for dinner, but thanks I'm not trolling... simply stating when IVERSON did this everyone loved him and handed him a mvp trophy, but westy does it and suddenly since we have advanced stats everyone is on his case.

that's it in a nutshell. are you saying that's bad? shouldn't basketball evolve like the rest of society?

Goose17
03-23-2015, 04:14 PM
I'm not looking for dinner, but thanks I'm not trolling... simply stating when IVERSON did this everyone loved him and handed him a mvp trophy, but westy does it and suddenly since we have advanced stats everyone is on his case.

Yeah but most people now think Iverson was overrated. So do you think Westy is?

And Westbrook is better than Iverson ever was. He has a similar mentality though so I get the comparison.

ballallday
03-23-2015, 04:40 PM
that's it in a nutshell. are you saying that's bad? shouldn't basketball evolve like the rest of society?


So your saying evolution = advanced stats?

So anyone who plays similar to Westbrook since advanced stats doesn't favour his style of play then we should call him a chucker / poor decision maker / not mvp type play? No man dosnt make any sense!

He makes everyone around him better by playing the way he does, taking some poor percentage shots keeps the defence on there toes. If he never jacked a random three that was ill advised then he wouldNt always have his defender at the 3 line waiting. Teams constantly worry about what he might do at any moment because he is that good. Plus he's running around like crazy just like iverson did expending so much energy, doubled teamed, of course his percentage isn't going to be amazing but they are above average. Because he does these things it constantly causes issues for other teams and opens up other players on the court. Like people argued for iverson he made Eric snow and Arron Mackey great players cause they could hit mid range jumpers / 3s. You think 76ers go to finals without his bs inefficient, chucker, bad decision, terrible statistic play?

You can look (waist your time on) at advance stats all you want but a guy like west is 1/1,000,000 who can constantly penetrate defences, score like a beast while making his team mates better by finding them (hence triple double after triple double which is what the post is all about appreciating). Just watch him play instead of looking at stat lines, I know an nba game actually consumes time to watch but so does waisting time looking at numbers and graphs. He's playing amazing bball appreciate it while you can before he's gone.

Question did iverson ever post assist like this?

ballallday
03-23-2015, 04:43 PM
I think west is way better then iverson, just using him as a comparison... Could have used Kobe too

Jamiecballer
03-23-2015, 05:27 PM
So your saying evolution = advanced stats?

So anyone who plays similar to Westbrook since advanced stats doesn't favour his style of play then we should call him a chucker / poor decision maker / not mvp type play? No man dosnt make any sense!

He makes everyone around him better by playing the way he does, taking some poor percentage shots keeps the defence on there toes. If he never jacked a random three that was ill advised then he wouldNt always have his defender at the 3 line waiting. Teams constantly worry about what he might do at any moment because he is that good. Plus he's running around like crazy just like iverson did expending so much energy, doubled teamed, of course his percentage isn't going to be amazing but they are above average. Because he does these things it constantly causes issues for other teams and opens up other players on the court. Like people argued for iverson he made Eric snow and Arron Mackey great players cause they could hit mid range jumpers / 3s. You think 76ers go to finals without his bs inefficient, chucker, bad decision, terrible statistic play?

You can look (waist your time on) at advance stats all you want but a guy like west is 1/1,000,000 who can constantly penetrate defences, score like a beast while making his team mates better by finding them (hence triple double after triple double which is what the post is all about appreciating). Just watch him play instead of looking at stat lines, I know an nba game actually consumes time to watch but so does waisting time looking at numbers and graphs. He's playing amazing bball appreciate it while you can before he's gone.

Question did iverson ever post assist like this?
Nope, I'm saying more and better information has lead to better and more complete evaluations. It doesn't matter one bit what people thought back then when the average fan cared only about ppg, RPG, spg, APG, and bpg.

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 06:20 PM
There's a difference between playing amazing and being the MVP. Russ is not the MVP. That's complete crap. Harden, Curry, and even LeBron have more of a case than Russ. Have you guys seen his USG%? I love Russ and we definitely need him because he's probably the second or third best PG (CP3 is so underrated), but if you can't see that he is on a historic USG%, then that's why you're labeling him the MVP.

phantasyyy
03-23-2015, 06:24 PM
7-3 in the last 10 games.. with wins over the Heat, Hawks, Boston, Bulls, T'Wolves, Raptors and 76ers
Losses coming from the Mavs(second half of B2B only by 4, Clippers(by 12) and Bulls(second half of a B2B only by 3)

38.6m .406/fg% 37/3pt% 31.9/pts 11.2/asts 9.7 rebs 2.8/steals 0.5/blocks 6.6/turnovers throughout that 10 game stand.

He's pretty much averaging a triple double with 32/11/10/3steals.. obviously his fg % is low and his turnovers are up but that's the nature of his game.. He plays fast and reckless, but 7-3 is still 7-3. Without his motor the OKC offense is non-existant. He creates so much just off his energy. he's still averaging close to a 1.86 ast/to ratio.

Dudes straight balling and all you guys can harp about his fg% and turnovers? Sure they're high but its all in the need of his team to be aggressive and become the focal point of that offensive attack. Who else are they going to give the ball to create for others?... waiters? morrow? singler? Augustin is the only other option and his numbers are a modest 25m/8.5pt/3.2ast/2.9reb/1.6to

He the heart and soul of OKC right now, and he probably wont be able to will his team past the warriors in the first round but im damn sure they wont sweep the OKC either.

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 06:37 PM
7-3 in the last 10 games.. with wins over the Heat, Hawks, Boston, Bulls, T'Wolves, Raptors and 76ers
Losses coming from the Mavs(second half of B2B only by 4, Clippers(by 12) and Bulls(second half of a B2B only by 3)

38.6m .406/fg% 37/3pt% 31.9/pts 11.2/asts 9.7 rebs 2.8/steals 0.5/blocks 6.6/turnovers throughout that 10 game stand.

He's pretty much averaging a triple double with 32/11/10/3steals.. obviously his fg % is low and his turnovers are up but that's the nature of his game.. He plays fast and reckless, but 7-3 is still 7-3. Without his motor the OKC offense is non-existant. He creates so much just off his energy. he's still averaging close to a 1.86 ast/to ratio.

Dudes straight balling and all you guys can harp about his fg% and turnovers? Sure they're high but its all in the need of his team to be aggressive and become the focal point of that offensive attack. Who else are they going to give the ball to create for others?... waiters? morrow? singler? Augustin is the only other option and his numbers are a modest 25m/8.5pt/3.2ast/2.9reb/1.6to

He the heart and soul of OKC right now, and he probably wont be able to will his team past the warriors in the first round but im damn sure they wont sweep the OKC either.

There's so many things wrong with your post, though. No one is discrediting his amazingness but it's rather one tale of a story. What he's doing right now is strictly based off his USG%. By comparison, Harden/Curry are only at 30% USG. I'm not sure what Westbrook's USG% is the past 10 games but it's probably the 40-43% mark. That's INSANE and historically, he's on pace to breaking Jordan's USG% for a regular season. I agree that he's the heart and soul of OKC but let's not get it twisted here. Any time you control 40% of all possessions, you're bound to get inflated numbers. Westbrook always had this in him. It's just that KD was there as well.

MonroeFAN
03-23-2015, 06:48 PM
Loving Wes. And laughing at all you stat geek losers who hate on what the kid is doing. He's not yours so you don't like him. Get off your high horses.

Wat? His stats are what people are going crazy about. You should delete that comment, that was bad dude.

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 06:51 PM
The guy had 17 assists and you want him to move the ball around more?

When you bring the ball down every possession, and all missed offensive chances means the ball comes back to you, you are going to get a lot of assists.




Westy is playing great, but when you control the ball this much on the offensive end, you should be putting up this sort of numbers. He touches the ball more than anyone else in the game. If he can manage to limit his turnovers and take smarter shots, he would be the best in the game.


These are counting stars, points, assists, rebounds, etc. the more you play, and the more you control the ball, the higher these numbers are going to be.


Through 55 games this year, Westbrook has

27.5 ppg, 7.1 apg, 5.2 trb, and 4.4 turnovers, on .432 shooting, with a 38.1 usage rate

If he touched the ball 30% less, at these rates, nobody would call him a star.

If Steph curry had this usage rate, he would be crushing Westbrook statistically.

It helps when every offensive possession comes through you at some point. You are going to rack up points, assists, and even turnovers.

jerellh528
03-23-2015, 06:52 PM
Doesn't a higher usg somewhat correlate to being super valuable if the usg is resulting in production and wins? Imo a player with a low usg isn't really being supremely utilized/needed by his team therefore lowering his total value for that team? Usg tries to account for team plays accounted for by that player right? I don't see how high usg is a negative when impacting an mvp, imo it's the opposite because it shows he's the whole team right now

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 06:56 PM
There's so many things wrong with your post, though. No one is discrediting his amazingness but it's rather one tale of a story. What he's doing right now is strictly based off his USG%. By comparison, Harden/Curry are only at 30% USG. I'm not sure what Westbrook's USG% is the past 10 games but it's probably the 40-43% mark. That's INSANE and historically, he's on pace to breaking Jordan's USG% for a regular season. I agree that he's the heart and soul of OKC but let's not get it twisted here. Any time you control 40% of all possessions, you're bound to get inflated numbers. Westbrook always had this in him. It's just that KD was there as well.

Since 2/26 - last 12 games, it's 40.5%


14.6% turnover rate, that's middle of the road, so it isn't all that bad. And he has the best assist rate in the game.

If Durant was around, then he should be sharing, but with him missing, there is nothing wrong with Westbrook running the offense like this, just, he could make fewer mistakes and see better results.

RLundi
03-23-2015, 07:49 PM
Doesn't a higher usg somewhat correlate to being super valuable if the usg is resulting in production and wins? Imo a player with a low usg isn't really being supremely utilized/needed by his team therefore lowering his total value for that team? Usg tries to account for team plays accounted for by that player right? I don't see how high usg is a negative when impacting an mvp, imo it's the opposite because it shows he's the whole team right now

His usage rate isn't hurting his numbers though, it's inflating them. Case in point, LeBron and Harden have fairly similar numbers as Westbrook but their usage percentages are significantly lower. If Westbrook's usage rate was near LeBron's or Harden's, he wouldn't be as productive. So while his numbers look otherworldly (for him), if you look closer, his very high usage rate in a way is directly responsible.

The main difference between Russ and a player like LeBron, Harden or Steph is that Westbrook's high usage, while inflating his attributes, also magnifies his shortcomings. That's why he may average close to 5 turnovers a game by season's end.

To put it into further perspective, just for comparison's sake since Westy's current usage rivals Kobe's and MJ's career highs, let's juxtapose the seasons in which they averaged the same usage percentsge. I'll just use basic counting stats:

Kobe Bryant: 35.4ppg, 5.3rbg, 4.5apg, 2.9tpg, .450 FG%
Michael Jordan: 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.2apg, 3.3tpg, .482 FG%
Russell Westbrook: 27.5ppg, 7.3rpg, 8.7apg, 4.4tpg, .427 FG%

With around the same usage percentsge (~38), Micahel and Kobe did FAR more. I'm not comparing Russ to them as far as player ability, but Russ' numbers aren't that astounding considering how much he has the ball in his hands. With as much as he has the rock in his hands, he SHOULD be putting up comparable numbers.

I'm not knocking what the guy is doing, he's a fantastic player. I just am not sold that what he's doing is either revolutionary or MVP-like.

Goose17
03-23-2015, 07:57 PM
They took his trip dub against Miami away. Only 9 rebounds. Kanter about to get his head stomped for not letting Bodie Broadus get his triple double.

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 08:03 PM
His usage rate isn't hurting his numbers though, it's inflating them. Case in point, LeBron and Harden have fairly similar numbers as Westbrook but their usage percentages are significantly lower. If Westbrook's usage rate was near LeBron's or Harden's, he wouldn't be as productive. So while his numbers look otherworldly (for him), if you look closer, his very high usage rate in a way is directly responsible.

The main difference between Russ and a player like LeBron, Harden or Steph is that Westbrook's high usage, while inflating his attributes, also magnifies his shortcomings. That's why he may average close to 5 turnovers a game by season's end.

To put it into further perspective, just for comparison's sake since Westy's current usage rivals Kobe's and MJ's career highs, let's juxtapose the seasons in which they averaged the same usage percentsge. I'll just use basic counting stats:

Kobe Bryant: 35.4ppg, 5.3rbg, 4.5apg, 2.9tpg, .450 FG%
Michael Jordan: 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.2apg, 3.3tpg, .482 FG%
Russell Westbrook: 27.5ppg, 7.3rpg, 8.7apg, 4.4tpg, .427 FG%

With around the same usage percentsge (~38), Micahel and Kobe did FAR more. I'm not comparing Russ to them as far as player ability, but Russ' numbers aren't that astounding considering how much he has the ball in his hands. With as much as he has the rock in his hands, he SHOULD be putting up comparable numbers.

I'm not knocking what the guy is doing, he's a fantastic player. I just am not sold that what he's doing is either revolutionary or MVP-like.

Yup. I have no problem with Russ taking that high of a USG% but it's getting out of hand when you think he's all of a sudden God because he has the absolute luxury to use the ball as many times as he wants. Remember when everyone kept saying how he had to share the ball more? He's the only guy who can effectively propel our offensive. But to say he's MVP? That's absolutely crap. Let me ask you guys, do you really think WB is more valuable than KD?

Tony_Starks
03-23-2015, 08:14 PM
His usage rate isn't hurting his numbers though, it's inflating them. Case in point, LeBron and Harden have fairly similar numbers as Westbrook but their usage percentages are significantly lower. If Westbrook's usage rate was near LeBron's or Harden's, he wouldn't be as productive. So while his numbers look otherworldly (for him), if you look closer, his very high usage rate in a way is directly responsible.

The main difference between Russ and a player like LeBron, Harden or Steph is that Westbrook's high usage, while inflating his attributes, also magnifies his shortcomings. That's why he may average close to 5 turnovers a game by season's end.

To put it into further perspective, just for comparison's sake since Westy's current usage rivals Kobe's and MJ's career highs, let's juxtapose the seasons in which they averaged the same usage percentsge. I'll just use basic counting stats:

Kobe Bryant: 35.4ppg, 5.3rbg, 4.5apg, 2.9tpg, .450 FG%
Michael Jordan: 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.2apg, 3.3tpg, .482 FG%
Russell Westbrook: 27.5ppg, 7.3rpg, 8.7apg, 4.4tpg, .427 FG%

With around the same usage percentsge (~38), Micahel and Kobe did FAR more. I'm not comparing Russ to them as far as player ability, but Russ' numbers aren't that astounding considering how much he has the ball in his hands. With as much as he has the rock in his hands, he SHOULD be putting up comparable numbers.

I'm not knocking what the guy is doing, he's a fantastic player. I just am not sold that what he's doing is either revolutionary or MVP-like.

Yup. I have no problem with Russ taking that high of a USG% but it's getting out of hand when you think he's all of a sudden God because he has the absolute luxury to use the ball as many times as he wants. Remember when everyone kept saying how he had to share the ball more? He's the only guy who can effectively propel our offensive. But to say he's MVP? That's absolutely crap. Let me ask you guys, do you really think WB is more valuable than KD?

You're missing a very simple fundamental fact: he has no choice. What you call the "luxury" of dominating the ball is him doing what is absolutely necessary to give his team a fighting chance. Without him balling out the way he is they aren't even competitive in those games, let alone winning.

He's basically Allen Iverson playing with Aaron Mckie Eric Snow George Lynch and Mutumbo but I'll save you the response , Im sure you're the type that feels he was overrated too and hurt his team by not passing more to his "peers."

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 08:22 PM
Yeah but most people now think Iverson was overrated. So do you think Westy is?

And Westbrook is better than Iverson ever was. He has a similar mentality though so I get the comparison.

The issue with comparing Iverson to Westbrook is that Westbrook, is actually pretty efficient.

He has the high numbers because of insane usage AND he is rather efficient.

He has a lower field goal percentage, and average turnover rates, but the numbers for him are driven by insane usage. He still shoots well from the free throw line, gets assists, rebounds, etc.

Iverson isn't that great of a comparison because of the assists. Though, similar values as shooters. Westbrook thus far has a higher PER this year than anything Iverson ever posted.


- note, Goose, I know you weren't making the comp.

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 08:25 PM
Westbrook is consistently getting +10 assists because he commands so much attention on defense. If he started walking the ball up the court swinging it around the perimeter that would cut down his turnovers but it would also significantly cut back on easy baskets. I love the aggressive transition style of basketball he is playing. The turnovers actually don't bother me as much as the shot selection.

Agree with this completely.

In fact, the turnover rate isn't all that bad overall.

And it's hard to argue the poor field goal shooting considering he is the only shooter on their court too (though, honestly, while watching, he clearly chucks his fair share).

Westbrook could raise his BBall shot IQ a few points (involving in better shot selections and maybe a few less shots) and he would be elite among the elites.

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 08:28 PM
His usage rate isn't hurting his numbers though, it's inflating them. Case in point, LeBron and Harden have fairly similar numbers as Westbrook but their usage percentages are significantly lower. If Westbrook's usage rate was near LeBron's or Harden's, he wouldn't be as productive. So while his numbers look otherworldly (for him), if you look closer, his very high usage rate in a way is directly responsible.

The main difference between Russ and a player like LeBron, Harden or Steph is that Westbrook's high usage, while inflating his attributes, also magnifies his shortcomings. That's why he may average close to 5 turnovers a game by season's end.

To put it into further perspective, just for comparison's sake since Westy's current usage rivals Kobe's and MJ's career highs, let's juxtapose the seasons in which they averaged the same usage percentsge. I'll just use basic counting stats:

Kobe Bryant: 35.4ppg, 5.3rbg, 4.5apg, 2.9tpg, .450 FG%
Michael Jordan: 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.2apg, 3.3tpg, .482 FG%
Russell Westbrook: 27.5ppg, 7.3rpg, 8.7apg, 4.4tpg, .427 FG%

With around the same usage percentsge (~38), Micahel and Kobe did FAR more. I'm not comparing Russ to them as far as player ability, but Russ' numbers aren't that astounding considering how much he has the ball in his hands. With as much as he has the rock in his hands, he SHOULD be putting up comparable numbers.

I'm not knocking what the guy is doing, he's a fantastic player. I just am not sold that what he's doing is either revolutionary or MVP-like.

Perfect post

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 08:49 PM
You're missing a very simple fundamental fact: he has no choice. What you call the "luxury" of dominating the ball is him doing what is absolutely necessary to give his team a fighting chance. Without him balling out the way he is they aren't even competitive in those games, let alone winning.

He's basically Allen Iverson playing with Aaron Mckie Eric Snow George Lynch and Mutumbo but I'll save you the response , Im sure you're the type that feels he was overrated too and hurt his team by not passing more to his "peers."

I'm not missing that. I acknowledged that he's playing amazing but this isn't anything out of the ordinary. Westbrook has been this type of player his entire career. If you watch him play, the only difference is that the offense runs through him 100% of the time whereas it ran through KD/Westbrook most of the time. Westbrook is doing what Westbrook does except he has the ball 40% of the time MINIMUM. Idk what you're even talking about. Unless you think RWB is MVP, your argument is plain empty. He is overrated because he isn't MVP. He hurt his team when Durant was there.. clearly when Durant isn't there, the offense is better going through RWB than KD. When KD is there, RWB should not be touching the ball over KD.

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 08:50 PM
I'm guessing most of the people calling Westbrook MVP are people who never actually watched him play at all and are simply looking at his triple doubles. I watch OKC play 99% of the time. The only reason I even have league pass (besides to watch Cleveland games because I love me some LeBron). He has the ball on his hands more than any other player I've ever seen.

jerellh528
03-23-2015, 09:04 PM
His usage rate isn't hurting his numbers though, it's inflating them. Case in point, LeBron and Harden have fairly similar numbers as Westbrook but their usage percentages are significantly lower. If Westbrook's usage rate was near LeBron's or Harden's, he wouldn't be as productive. So while his numbers look otherworldly (for him), if you look closer, his very high usage rate in a way is directly responsible.

The main difference between Russ and a player like LeBron, Harden or Steph is that Westbrook's high usage, while inflating his attributes, also magnifies his shortcomings. That's why he may average close to 5 turnovers a game by season's end.

To put it into further perspective, just for comparison's sake since Westy's current usage rivals Kobe's and MJ's career highs, let's juxtapose the seasons in which they averaged the same usage percentsge. I'll just use basic counting stats:

Kobe Bryant: 35.4ppg, 5.3rbg, 4.5apg, 2.9tpg, .450 FG%
Michael Jordan: 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.2apg, 3.3tpg, .482 FG%
Russell Westbrook: 27.5ppg, 7.3rpg, 8.7apg, 4.4tpg, .427 FG%

With around the same usage percentsge (~38), Micahel and Kobe did FAR more. I'm not comparing Russ to them as far as player ability, but Russ' numbers aren't that astounding considering how much he has the ball in his hands. With as much as he has the rock in his hands, he SHOULD be putting up comparable numbers.

I'm not knocking what the guy is doing, he's a fantastic player. I just am not sold that what he's doing is either revolutionary or MVP-like.

Mainly what I took from this post is that westbrook isn't as good as jordan, kobe, or Lebron. Again, I don't see how his high usg, given the circumstances should be seen as a negative when looking at an mvp. I keep seeing people post that if curry or harden had the same usg, they would be blowing westy out the water, but are those players even capable of that usg while leading their respective team's to victories? To me that's like saying a players per 36 stats are awesome so he's awesome even if he only plays 15 mins a game. Not literally, but essentially. Also he's averaging 4.4 turnovers a game, Lebron is averaging 4.1. Not too bad when you factor in how much he has the ball and his playmaking. I think at this point people are just nitpicking on westbrook because he doesn't have the efficiency they like to see. That's fine, but it's gettin lame seeing westbrook have a monster night while leading his team to victory and see all these little detractors like 6 turnovers meh, only shot 43%, took too many shots blah blah blah. His performances are absolutely mvp worthy, and he's second behind harden imo. I don't think he should win because of time missed plus overall team record, but we haven't seen a guy put their team on his back like this in such a competative confrence in as long as I can remember, even if it hasn't been for a whole season.

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 09:33 PM
For those wondering, this is the highest single season usage since Kobe in 05-06, then you have to go back to Jordan in 86-87 for another usage over 38 (though Iverson reached 37)


Kobe's 38.74 is the highest single season Usage rate, Westbrook would be third.

Tony_Starks
03-23-2015, 10:16 PM
Stat guys please excuse my ignorance but I seriously could care less about usage rate. When I see a player doing something historic, which is literally what Russ is doing, I tend to take at face value. Not even Lebron has done what he is doing in a season, if he had the internet and sports media as we know it probably would've self destructed. Not to mention dragging a team minus the reigning MVP to the playoffs in a West where about 5 teams have a legit shot at being in the Finals.

I totally get the typical unwritten rules for defining a MVP but there are certain special scenarios where all that goes out the window. This is one of those times...

Jeffy25
03-23-2015, 10:23 PM
Stat guys please excuse my ignorance but I seriously could care less about usage rate. When I see a player doing something historic, which is literally what Russ is doing, I tend to take at face value. Not even Lebron has done what he is doing in a season, if he had the internet and sports media as we know it probably would've self destructed. Not to mention dragging a team minus the reigning MVP to the playoffs in a West where about 5 teams have a legit shot at being in the Finals.

I totally get the typical unwritten rules for defining a MVP but there are certain special scenarios where all that goes out the window. This is one of those times...

It's about more than that.

It's keeping context of what is being done.

You speak of it being historic, but it's opportunity based historics.

FlashBolt
03-23-2015, 11:23 PM
What is the argument you guys are trying to make? That Westbrook is as good as Jordan, James, Kobe? I don't get what exactly is going on here. Westbrook is a great player but would OKC with just this Westbrook win a single thing? If it wasn't for KD's partial return, OKC wouldn't even be in the Playoffs right now. His high USG% rate is crazy and it's definitely the highest for any ten game stretch. I'm impressed but I'm not delusional. This is just Westbrook with more minutes/opportunity. Let me see what he can do in the Playoffs/with KD on the floor and then it will impress me.

Tony_Starks
03-24-2015, 12:22 AM
Stat guys please excuse my ignorance but I seriously could care less about usage rate. When I see a player doing something historic, which is literally what Russ is doing, I tend to take at face value. Not even Lebron has done what he is doing in a season, if he had the internet and sports media as we know it probably would've self destructed. Not to mention dragging a team minus the reigning MVP to the playoffs in a West where about 5 teams have a legit shot at being in the Finals.

I totally get the typical unwritten rules for defining a MVP but there are certain special scenarios where all that goes out the window. This is one of those times...

It's about more than that.

It's keeping context of what is being done.

You speak of it being historic, but it's opportunity based historics.


Opportunity based as it may be it's still pretty ridiculous. People are downplaying it now but if you were to predict before the season started that KD would be out for an extended period and Russ would go on some crazy triple double spree people would laugh you out of town. In fact when KD went down the prevailing sentiment around these parts was Westbrook would get a bunch of points, to the teams detriment, and OKC would miss the playoffs.

RLundi
03-24-2015, 12:41 AM
Mainly what I took from this post is that westbrook isn't as good as jordan, kobe, or Lebron. Again, I don't see how his high usg, given the circumstances should be seen as a negative when looking at an mvp. I keep seeing people post that if curry or harden had the same usg, they would be blowing westy out the water, but are those players even capable of that usg while leading their respective team's to victories? To me that's like saying a players per 36 stats are awesome so he's awesome even if he only plays 15 mins a game. Not literally, but essentially. Also he's averaging 4.4 turnovers a game, Lebron is averaging 4.1. Not too bad when you factor in how much he has the ball and his playmaking. I think at this point people are just nitpicking on westbrook because he doesn't have the efficiency they like to see. That's fine, but it's gettin lame seeing westbrook have a monster night while leading his team to victory and see all these little detractors like 6 turnovers meh, only shot 43%, took too many shots blah blah blah. His performances are absolutely mvp worthy, and he's second behind harden imo. I don't think he should win because of time missed plus overall team record, but we haven't seen a guy put their team on his back like this in such a competative confrence in as long as I can remember, even if it hasn't been for a whole season.

The point is, with how high his usage is, he should be this good, even better actually. The higher the usage, theoretically the better the statistics. His high usage only rivals MJ and Kobe, yet they had significantly better seasons. I'm not at all knocking what Westy is doing, but at such a high usage, his season looks a little ... pedestrian in comparison.

Here are the facts: the more shots you take, generally the more points you'll generally score. The more you have the ball in your hands, the more assists you'll generally get. So while I can't say I expected this from Russ, at the same time, looking at how often he possesses the ball, I can't say I'm surprised. The only thing I can't explain are the rebounds. Simply put, he's incredible in that department, but again, not totally revolutionary. Go look up Jason Kidd and see how many seasons he put up around 7 boards a game. You might be surprised.

Look, Westbrook is having a fine season. But a myriad of factors, least of all his efficiency, will keep him from getting MVP. Iverson got MVP during a fairly inefficient season, so there's certainly precedence, and there's probably more examples of the same ilk. I'm just saying, Westbrook -- with 15 or so missed games, his team in the 7th or 8th spot and currently on pace to win less than 50 games, and better options in Harden and Curry -- will not win MVP, despite his monster stats, big games of late, and penchant for triple doubles.

Sorry, not happening and not deserving.

Chronz
03-24-2015, 02:48 AM
Opportunity based as it may be it's still pretty ridiculous. People are downplaying it now but if you were to predict before the season started that KD would be out for an extended period and Russ would go on some crazy triple double spree people would laugh you out of town. In fact when KD went down the prevailing sentiment around these parts was Westbrook would get a bunch of points, to the teams detriment, and OKC would miss the playoffs.

Not really. People who understand NBA HISTORY, will be able to tell you its not that historic

RLundi
03-24-2015, 09:52 AM
You sound like an idiot trying to explain why your stupid *** stats should be reality for westbrook. You sound irritated at Rus because hes not going along with what the stats should say.

Idk, I thought everything I said was pretty plausible :shrug:

I'm not irritated at all. It's just there's a statistical precedence to all of this, involving numbers, win percentage and playoff seeding. That's usually a combination the voters use, and it doesn't look like Westbrook will meet the criterion.

That's all I'm trying to say.

nickdymez
03-24-2015, 10:19 AM
Idk, I thought everything I said was pretty plausible :shrug:

I'm not irritated at all. It's just there's a statistical precedence to all of this, involving numbers, win percentage and playoff seeding. That's usually a combination the voters use, and it doesn't look like Westbrook will meet the criterion.

That's all I'm trying to say.
Fair enough.

ewing
03-24-2015, 10:25 AM
The point is, with how high his usage is, he should be this good, even better actually. The higher the usage, theoretically the better the statistics. His high usage only rivals MJ and Kobe, yet they had significantly better seasons. I'm not at all knocking what Westy is doing, but at such a high usage, his season looks a little ... pedestrian in comparison.

Here are the facts: the more shots you take, generally the more points you'll generally score. The more you have the ball in your hands, the more assists you'll generally get. So while I can't say I expected this from Russ, at the same time, looking at how often he possesses the ball, I can't say I'm surprised. The only thing I can't explain are the rebounds. Simply put, he's incredible in that department, but again, not totally revolutionary. Go look up Jason Kidd and see how many seasons he put up around 7 boards a game. You might be surprised.

Look, Westbrook is having a fine season. But a myriad of factors, least of all his efficiency, will keep him from getting MVP. Iverson got MVP during a fairly inefficient season, so there's certainly precedence, and there's probably more examples of the same ilk. I'm just saying, Westbrook -- with 15 or so missed games, his team in the 7th or 8th spot and currently on pace to win less than 50 games, and better options in Harden and Curry -- will not win MVP, despite his monster stats, big games of late, and penchant for triple doubles.

Sorry, not happening and not deserving.

your % will also decrease with increased attempts and your TOs will go up. Both sides seem to only be looking at one side of the coin. I would not give the MVP to Russ but he is on one hell of a tear

valade16
03-24-2015, 10:56 AM
His usage rate isn't hurting his numbers though, it's inflating them. Case in point, LeBron and Harden have fairly similar numbers as Westbrook but their usage percentages are significantly lower. If Westbrook's usage rate was near LeBron's or Harden's, he wouldn't be as productive. So while his numbers look otherworldly (for him), if you look closer, his very high usage rate in a way is directly responsible.

The main difference between Russ and a player like LeBron, Harden or Steph is that Westbrook's high usage, while inflating his attributes, also magnifies his shortcomings. That's why he may average close to 5 turnovers a game by season's end.

To put it into further perspective, just for comparison's sake since Westy's current usage rivals Kobe's and MJ's career highs, let's juxtapose the seasons in which they averaged the same usage percentsge. I'll just use basic counting stats:

Kobe Bryant: 35.4ppg, 5.3rbg, 4.5apg, 2.9tpg, .450 FG%
Michael Jordan: 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.2apg, 3.3tpg, .482 FG%
Russell Westbrook: 27.5ppg, 7.3rpg, 8.7apg, 4.4tpg, .427 FG%

With around the same usage percentsge (~38), Micahel and Kobe did FAR more. I'm not comparing Russ to them as far as player ability, but Russ' numbers aren't that astounding considering how much he has the ball in his hands. With as much as he has the rock in his hands, he SHOULD be putting up comparable numbers.

I'm not knocking what the guy is doing, he's a fantastic player. I just am not sold that what he's doing is either revolutionary or MVP-like.

I think you'd have to revise that to say they scored far more. If we're talking about "doing" way more (and those numbers are accurate) then Westbrook buries both MJ and Kobe in RPG and APG.

Alayla
03-24-2015, 11:05 AM
Yes. Are you not allowed to pass after you make 17 assists or something? Is that a new rule?

Think about. If half the shots he bricked had been passes to a team mate with a better look, what would his numbers look like? His team mates can obviously score if he's dropping 17 dimes. So why not drop more? Why not trust them even more? Why take so many crappy shots yourself? Where's the logic?

Someone has never heard of the law of diminishing returns i see.
If Westbrook is constantly passing then people will defend the pass more often he HAS to be aggressive and put up a alot of shots to keep the defense drawn to him i don't understand why its taking people so long to understand something so simple. Scott Brooks even openly said that was the case at one point and people STILL think they know better.

Alayla
03-24-2015, 11:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ-smGZBQuo

It was not very well articulated but i called people out on the Westbrook hate in oct 2012 and argued about how underrated he was.

ballallday
03-24-2015, 11:14 AM
Again people stop looking at the stats and just watch the guy play, he is actually amazing to watch. Forget the triple doubles forget the usage rates! Just watch the guy break down defenders, find open teammates, run balls out on the floor on every play!

So talking usage numbers and stat lines who should be taking more shots? Anthony morrow? Waiters? Steven Adams? Come on!?!!? Who should be bring the ball up the floor? Who should be penetrating the defence creating for the team on each play? WESTBROOK!! every play give him the ball and watch him ball!!! screw your usage % crap. He should always have the ball!!! Play him 100% if possible. Plus he's so fun to watch. Just enjoy the kids game! if your not tuning into the game and just looking at stat lines at the end of the game then do you really understand how those stats were produced and what the circumstances were? Can you really use stats to compare Jordan's/iverson/Kobe vs west? No completely diff game / defenders / teammates coaching etc

So just stop it if your not gonna say the guy is great your just missing out on the show. Just like the hate of Kobe, people just missed out watching him because they were justifying statistical bs that really means nothing when your watching great talent tear it up on the floor.

Oh wait but his usage % pfffftttttt

Alayla
03-24-2015, 11:17 AM
Again people stop looking at the stats and just watch the guy play, he is actually amazing to watch. Forget the triple doubles forget the usage rates! Just watch the guy break down defenders, find open teammates, run balls out on the floor on every play!

So talking usage numbers and stat lines who should be taking more shots? Anthony morrow? Waiters? Steven Adams? Come on!?!!? Who should be bring the ball up the floor? Who should be penetrating the defence creating for the team on each play? WESTBROOK!! every play give him the ball and watch him ball!!! screw your usage % crap. He should always have the ball!!! Play him 100% if possible. Plus he's so fun to watch. Just enjoy the kids game! if your not tuning into the game and just looking at stat lines at the end of the game then do you really understand how those stats were produced and what the circumstances were? Can you really use stats to compare Jordan's/iverson/Kobe vs west? No completely diff game / defenders / teammates coaching etc

So just stop it if your not gonna say the guy is great your just missing out on the show. Just like the hate of Kobe, people just missed out watching him because they were justifying statistical bs that really means nothing when your watching great talent tear it up on the floor.

Oh wait but his usage % pfffftttttt

Pretty much this stats without context are meaningless and stats as a whole really only exist to entertain the fans and there debates.

Sactown
03-24-2015, 11:18 AM
This is silly, I'm not saying this is historic, but bashing a guy when his 3 best teammates are injured... No duh he'll have to force the action a little

valade16
03-24-2015, 11:19 AM
The issue with comparing Iverson to Westbrook is that Westbrook, is actually pretty efficient.

He has the high numbers because of insane usage AND he is rather efficient.

He has a lower field goal percentage, and average turnover rates, but the numbers for him are driven by insane usage. He still shoots well from the free throw line, gets assists, rebounds, etc.

Iverson isn't that great of a comparison because of the assists. Though, similar values as shooters. Westbrook thus far has a higher PER this year than anything Iverson ever posted.

- note, Goose, I know you weren't making the comp.

Does he though?

Iverson's career TS% is 51.8% and Westbrook's is 52.5%. Westbrook's high is 54.5% and Iverson's is 56.7%. The thing is, Iverson by himself posted low TS% because he handled most of the offensive load however when he had a Kevin Durant-esque player next to him to take some pressure off in Carmelo in Denver, his TS% went up to 55.9%, higher than anything Westbrook has produced.

So my question is: what has Westbrooks TS% been when Kevin Durant doesn't play? Because unless that is drastically higher than AI's, the idea that Westbrook is more efficient than AI is false. He is certainly less efficient playing next to a superstar (KD and Melo) as AI was.

ballallday
03-24-2015, 11:22 AM
Pretty much this stats without context are meaningless and stats as a whole really only exist to entertain the fans and there debates.

Exactly just watch the game and appreciate the kids outstanding play. Like other dude said Internet would break if bron was doing this why not for west?

People break the Internet!!!!!!

Oh but wait usage % never mind

Alayla
03-24-2015, 11:27 AM
All this talk about efficiency is making me gag you guys clearly do not at all understand basketball and what it takes to win at that level where about half of the 500 best players in basketball are considered bad players.
You need so much depth and diversity in your game to even think about getting that far certain parts of there game may look lacking compared to these other monster players but you bring any of them even willie green or hasseem thabeet to your local YMCA and they will be substantially better in every single aspect of basketball than anyone else there even there weakest aspects will look god tier by comparison Statistics and comparisons can NEVER begin to show the talent of any NBA player.

ballallday
03-24-2015, 11:36 AM
Does he though?

Iverson's career TS% is 51.8% and Westbrook's is 52.5%. Westbrook's high is 54.5% and Iverson's is 56.7%. The thing is, Iverson by himself posted low TS% because he handled most of the offensive load however when he had a Kevin Durant-esque player next to him to take some pressure off in Carmelo in Denver, his TS% went up to 55.9%, higher than anything Westbrook has produced.

So my question is: what has Westbrooks TS% been when Kevin Durant doesn't play? Because unless that is drastically higher than AI's, the idea that Westbrook is more efficient than AI is false. He is certainly less efficient playing next to a superstar (KD and Melo) as AI was.

Dude u know coaching has a role to play as well as team chemistry on the court?. Having melo vs durrant teammate convos now you may as well talk coaching and other team mates and there role in affect stats rather then just saying oh well iverson plays with melo =% and west plays with durrant =% so iverson more efficient! So dumb... Again go play 5on5 in a league against diff teams with a coach and try to run the same plays week in week out and let me know how it goes. It's not all your fault if your own efficiency sucks because of the circumstance your in. That's what makes west so great.

Stats are just a result of a ever changing landscape of the game, sure u can draw up cool numbers and oh and aww over them but they really mean nothing... Sorry to break this to you I know its hard to hear but stats mean jack.... just watch the game, learn the game, it's actually very interesting instead of looking at stats all day and drawing these types of conclusions.

Back in the day people talked pts rb assist because it was quick and easy. people spent time talking about the game and plays defence strategy man on man zone running the ball utilizing the three. How to defend players what worked what didn't how to move the ball, players that were open, what to watch for. Who was up and coming why teams were good. We have so many things people can be shedding light on but Now we breaking down % points of usage??? so so so useless

valade16
03-24-2015, 12:01 PM
Dude u know coaching has a role to play as well as team chemistry on the court?. Having melo vs durrant teammate convos now you may as well talk coaching and other team mates and there role in affect stats rather then just saying oh well iverson plays with melo =% and west plays with durrant =% so iverson more efficient! So dumb... Again go play 5on5 in a league against diff teams with a coach and try to run the same plays week in week out and let me know how it goes. It's not all your fault if your own efficiency sucks because of the circumstance your in. That's what makes west so great.

Stats are just a result of a ever changing landscape of the game, sure u can draw up cool numbers and oh and aww over them but they really mean nothing... Sorry to break this to you I know its hard to hear but stats mean jack.... just watch the game, learn the game, it's actually very interesting instead of looking at stats all day and drawing these types of conclusions.

Back in the day people talked pts rb assist because it was quick and easy. people spent time talking about the game and plays defence strategy man on man zone running the ball utilizing the three. How to defend players what worked what didn't how to move the ball, players that were open, what to watch for. Who was up and coming why teams were good. We have so many things people can be shedding light on but Now we breaking down % points of usage??? so so so useless

I'm not sure what you're contending. Whose coaching situation is more detrimental, Westbrooks or AIs?

It's not like AI had an offensive mastermind in Philly drawing up great plays. If you watch Westbrook dribble at the top of the key, penetrate and either finish or create and think that coaching wasn't very good... yeah, that was pretty much the exact gameplan of the AI 76ers, so I'm not sure what your point is?

ballallday
03-24-2015, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure what you're contending. Whose coaching situation is more detrimental, Westbrooks or AIs?

It's not like AI had an offensive mastermind in Philly drawing up great plays. If you watch Westbrook dribble at the top of the key, penetrate and either finish or create and think that coaching wasn't very good... yeah, that was pretty much the exact gameplan of the AI 76ers, so I'm not sure what your point is?

Im just saying that trying to draw correlations between ai with melo vs durrant with west and then saying one has a better efficiency percentage is useless... totally and utterly useless! Dont you see? This stat argument is such a waist of time the game is so different with 5 people on the floor it just wasn't melo and ai playing 2on2 and durrant and west playing 2on2... it was a 5on5 game plus a coach affecting your stupid stupid stupid stats? I don't know how else to say it but these stats mean nothing because the situation was completely different melo isn't durrant, westbrook isn't ai. Only thing moneyball stat stuff works with is baseball (but i know shi**** about baseball so even then who knows) it has no place in basketball and is a waist of time and a useless argument. I know barkley is a straight up idiot in every aspect of common sense but he knows basketball better then any of you or i and knows that all this stat stuff is a waist of time.

Also I made a correlation before of AI and west having similar style of play and thats as far as the convo should go. trying to put stats against them is meaningless its a 5on5 game - again what you stat people can't get through your heads. Its so frustrating, just watch the game and recognize west for what he is historic and mvp caliber 1/2/or 3 spot in the debate without question.

but wait again usage %

valade16
03-24-2015, 01:10 PM
Im just saying that trying to draw correlations between ai with melo vs durrant with west and then saying one has a better efficiency percentage is useless... totally and utterly useless! Dont you see? This stat argument is such a waist of time the game is so different with 5 people on the floor it just wasn't melo and ai playing 2on2 and durrant and west playing 2on2... it was a 5on5 game plus a coach affecting your stupid stupid stupid stats? I don't know how else to say it but these stats mean nothing because the situation was completely different melo isn't durrant, westbrook isn't ai. Only thing moneyball stat stuff works with is baseball (but i know shi**** about baseball so even then who knows) it has no place in basketball and is a waist of time and a useless argument. I know barkley is a straight up idiot in every aspect of common sense but he knows basketball better then any of you or i and knows that all this stat stuff is a waist of time.

Also I made a correlation before of AI and west having similar style of play and thats as far as the convo should go. trying to put stats against them is meaningless its a 5on5 game - again what you stat people can't get through your heads. Its so frustrating, just watch the game and recognize west for what he is historic and mvp caliber 1/2/or 3 spot in the debate without question.

but wait again usage %

So your argument is that stats in and of themselves are completely meaningless/useless?

OK, I thought we could have an intelligent conversation about basketball. I realize now we can't. My apologies.

nickdymez
03-24-2015, 01:19 PM
I laugh listening to these advanced stat people on this site. You can tell that none of them ever played any type of organized basketball, yet they talk like they speak for "True fans". So now since someone invented a formula to judge basketball players on, no basketball player was ever good unless its under the guidelines of advanced stats. lmao. Thats ridiculous. If someone averaged 30 ppg, its not good anymore. 15 assists a game isnt good anymore, 20 rebounds isnt good anymore.

nickdymez
03-24-2015, 01:20 PM
So your argument is that stats in and of themselves are completely meaningless/useless?

OK, I thought we could have an intelligent conversation about basketball. I realize now we can't. My apologies.

This guy thinks the only way to have an intelligent conversation about basketball is using advanced stats.

valade16
03-24-2015, 01:30 PM
I laugh listening to these advanced stat people on this site. You can tell that none of them ever played any type of organized basketball, yet they talk like they speak for "True fans". So now since someone invented a formula to judge basketball players on, no basketball player was ever good unless its under the guidelines of advanced stats. lmao. Thats ridiculous. If someone averaged 30 ppg, its not good anymore. 15 assists a game isnt good anymore, 20 rebounds isnt good anymore.


This guy thinks the only way to have an intelligent conversation about basketball is using advanced stats.

Certainly not. I think you cannot have an intelligent conversation if you say "you can't use stats" because then it just devolves into people arguing about how big their basketball dick is and claiming they know more than you (for an example, please see nickdymez comment above).

I've played organized basketball my entire life and still do. In fact, I'm positive I could beat your *** at basketball because I know more than you. How do I know more than you? Because stats are for losers I use the eye test, my eye test which says everything I believe is right and everything you believe is wrong because I'm better at judging basketball talent because I agree with my opinions.

(Is that how it's supposed to go?)

ballallday
03-24-2015, 01:30 PM
So your argument is that stats in and of themselves are completely meaningless/useless?

OK, I thought we could have an intelligent conversation about basketball. I realize now we can't. My apologies.

Yes that is my argument they are useless dude. Ill break it down really easy now ready?

previous day: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low

If you want to actually watch the next OKC game we can have an intelligent conversation about how okc and westbrook utilized his skills to win the game for them, as well as plays they ran and how the other team defended westbrook... then great lets have that talk ABOUT BASKETBALL. Lets not talk about stats that are meaningless dude. pls don't give me this about intelligent convo about bball bs

ballallday
03-24-2015, 01:33 PM
Certainly not. I think you cannot have an intelligent conversation if you say "you can't use stats" because then it just devolves into peopel arguing about how big their basketball dick is and claiming they know more than you (for an example, please see nickdymez comment above).

I've played organized basketball my entire life and still do. In fact, I'm positive I could beat your *** at basketball because I know more than you? How do I know more than you, because stats are for losers I use the eye test, my eye test which says everything I believe is right and everything you believe is wrong because I'm better at judging basketball talent because I agree with my opinions.

(Is that how it's supposed to go?)

Glad to hear your a bball junkie too man just the way your coming at the argument is very stat heavy and its hard to see beyond that when looking at your post.

valade16
03-24-2015, 01:40 PM
Yes that is my argument they are useless dude. Ill break it down really easy now ready?

previous day: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low

If you want to actually watch the next OKC game we can have an intelligent conversation about how okc and westbrook utilized his skills to win the game for them, as well as plays they ran and how the other team defended westbrook... then great lets have that talk ABOUT BASKETBALL. Lets not talk about stats that are meaningless dude. pls don't give me this about intelligent convo about bball bs

But what you don't get is you can use stats to have a conversation about basketball. You can play incredible basketball and have a low TS% or FG% (Westy did it just the other night when he missed his first 5 shots and then went 11/21 including some clutch shots down the stretch). But the stats can tell us what you think can only be explained by watching basketball.

Why is Westbrook so good? Because he is lightning quick and can get penetration and break defenses down but still has incredible vision and passing ability to kick to the open man? You know what stats support that? His AST% being 48.4% and his FT% being absurdly high. He has an inconsistent jumper but when it's on he is neigh unstoppable. Of course you could also look at his shot chart to see his subpar FG% from 16-23 Ft. You could say that without KD and Ibaka Westbrook has to pretty much carry the team as they have no high end playmakers (although Kanter has really stepped up offensively, he sucks defensively). You could show that by pointing to his all-time high USG% (and showing Kanter sucks at D by showing his opponents FG% at the rim or the teams +/- when he's on the floor).

That's the thing. The eye test analysis and statistics can go hand in hand and can re-affirm or provide insight on what you are seeing. But you don't get that. So yes, I would like to have an insightful intelligent conversation about what Westbrook is doing or how he is doing it on the court.

But we can't have that, because without any objective measures all we're left with is you saying "I saw this and I'm right because I said so!" Seriously, if I said AI was a better player than Westbrook, how would you disprove me if our eyes are telling us different things? (NOTE: I'm not saying AI is better than Westbrook, just pointing out the absurdity of basically reducing analysis down to your opinion).

nickdymez
03-24-2015, 01:43 PM
Yes that is my argument they are useless dude. Ill break it down really easy now ready?

previous day: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low
day after: Westbrook wins the game by playing incredible basketball
next day stat guy: his usage crazy high, per terrible, % shot low

If you want to actually watch the next OKC game we can have an intelligent conversation about how okc and westbrook utilized his skills to win the game for them, as well as plays they ran and how the other team defended westbrook... then great lets have that talk ABOUT BASKETBALL. Lets not talk about stats that are meaningless dude. pls don't give me this about intelligent convo about bball bs

You post the exact same way I did when I first got to this site. I thought i would come here and have interesting basketball conversations. But I learned early on that's not happening here at PSD. 85% of the posters here only want to talk about advanced stats or they condescend you, some even call you prehistoric. lol. I used to argue that these people dont ever have to watch one basketball game in their life and they could win an argument here just by shouting out numbers. Good luck though

ballallday
03-24-2015, 01:55 PM
But what you don't get is you can use stats to have a conversation about basketball. You can play incredible basketball and have a low TS% or FG% (Westy did it just the other night when he missed his first 5 shots and then went 11/21 including some clutch shots down the stretch). But the stats can tell us what you think can only be explained by watching basketball.

Why is Westbrook so good? Because he is lightning quick and can get penetration and break defenses down but still has incredible vision and passing ability to kick to the open man? You know what stats support that? His AST% being 48.4% and his FT% being absurdly high. He has an inconsistent jumper but when it's on he is neigh unstoppable. Of course you could also look at his shot chart to see his subpar FG% from 16-23 Ft. You could say that without KD and Ibaka Westbrook has to pretty much carry the team as they have no high end playmakers (although Kanter has really stepped up offensively, he sucks defensively). You could show that by pointing to his all-time high USG% (and showing Kanter sucks at D by showing his opponents FG% at the rim or the teams +/- when he's on the floor).

That's the thing. The eye test analysis and statistics can go hand in hand and can re-affirm or provide insight on what you are seeing. But you don't get that. So yes, I would like to have an insightful intelligent conversation about what Westbrook is doing or how he is doing it on the court.

But we can't have that, because without any objective measures all we're left with is you saying "I saw this and I'm right because I said so!" Seriously, if I said AI was a better player than Westbrook, how would you disprove me if our eyes are telling us different things? (NOTE: I'm not saying AI is better than Westbrook, just pointing out the absurdity of basically reducing analysis down to your opinion).

Nobody is saying that they are right because I said so except for people quoting off stats. Im just saying we shouldn't be discrediting the guy based on statistical categories he's playing like an MVP. if i had iverson or westbrook to choose from id take westbrook based on my eye test, i get your point you were making (****EDIT WOULD I REALLY TAKE WESTBROOK? I DONT EVEN KNOW AT THIS POINT IT WAS SO LONG AGO THE GAME HAS CHANGED SO MUCH). Id like to stare at stats and say +/- % this but those stats are all based on different variables that can't be compared. I get stats help prove arguments but i as well as some others feel like its gone to far. you and many others haven't and i respect that. Maybe i shouldn't be chiming in the way i am. maybe i missed the boat - seriously. I get that you like to make correlations to back up your ideas and thoughts on the game, its cool god speed on that... but the weight being put on the stats are beyond logic imo.

valade16
03-24-2015, 02:05 PM
Nobody is saying that they are right because I said so except for people quoting off stats. Im just saying we shouldn't be discrediting the guy based on statistical categories he's playing like an MVP. if i had iverson or westbrook to choose from id take westbrook based on my eye test, i get your point you were making (****EDIT WOULD I REALLY TAKE WESTBROOK? I DONT EVEN KNOW AT THIS POINT IT WAS SO LONG AGO THE GAME HAS CHANGED SO MUCH). Id like to stare at stats and say +/- % this but those stats are all based on different variables that can't be compared. I get stats help prove arguments but i as well as some others feel like its gone to far. you and many others haven't and i respect that. Maybe i shouldn't be chiming in the way i am. maybe i missed the boat - seriously. I get that you like to make correlations to back up your ideas and thoughts on the game, its cool god speed on that... but the weight being put on the stats are beyond logic imo.

In the same way that beauty is in the eye of the beholder in regards to the eye test, so too is that true of stats. There is no one stat that says as an objective truth in all cases that X player is better than Y player. Heck, I came into this thread because someone said Westbrook was more efficient than AI (and I know he would base this argument off TS%) and I argued that although Westbrook has a higher TS%, it doesn't tell the whole story and then used a combination of stats and eye test to refute that notion.

So I come into a thread basically saying "the advanced stat doesn't tell the whole story" and get accused of only using advanced stats. Stats are extremely valuable. Yes, Westbrook is playing at an MVP caliber level. But so is James Harden and Steph Curry and possibly Anthony Davis and LeBron James. How do you possibly tell the difference on who has been the best?

Advanced stats can absolutely be helpful in that endeavor.

FlashBolt
03-24-2015, 03:31 PM
He's playing like an MVP... the hell? Do you see what seed they are in? The MVP shouldn't be a player who's ranked in the bottom seeds. Sorry, that doesn't make sense and defeats the label of how they truly vote for MVP. Wins matter most and quite frankly, Westbrook isn't doing a whole lot of that compared to other candidates.

nickdymez
03-24-2015, 03:58 PM
He's playing like an MVP... the hell? Do you see what seed they are in? The MVP shouldn't be a player who's ranked in the bottom seeds. Sorry, that doesn't make sense and defeats the label of how they truly vote for MVP. Wins matter most and quite frankly, Westbrook isn't doing a whole lot of that compared to other candidates.

10 triple doubles isnt a whole lot?

ballallday
03-24-2015, 04:26 PM
He's playing like an MVP... the hell? Do you see what seed they are in? The MVP shouldn't be a player who's ranked in the bottom seeds. Sorry, that doesn't make sense and defeats the label of how they truly vote for MVP. Wins matter most and quite frankly, Westbrook isn't doing a whole lot of that compared to other candidates.

At the start of the season if westbrook alone played the entire season they would be way higher in the standings u have to agree with that. Also by mid december people didn't have OKC making the playoffs let alone doing damage in it. Now I'm not saying they will upset anyone but they are an amazing story...

Its actually 9 triple doubles nickdymez they just took a rebound from sunday away

Jamiecballer
03-24-2015, 05:15 PM
Stat guys please excuse my ignorance but I seriously could care less about usage rate. When I see a player doing something historic, which is literally what Russ is doing, I tend to take at face value. Not even Lebron has done what he is doing in a season, if he had the internet and sports media as we know it probably would've self destructed. Not to mention dragging a team minus the reigning MVP to the playoffs in a West where about 5 teams have a legit shot at being in the Finals.

I totally get the typical unwritten rules for defining a MVP but there are certain special scenarios where all that goes out the window. This is one of those times...
You aren't "taking it at face value" because that implies that we are not. Its very impressive what he is doing, but its not great. That opinion isn't arbitrary, BTW. Its backed by the underlying opinion that a great player plays with his team, not merely alongside them.

Jamiecballer
03-24-2015, 05:22 PM
10 triple doubles isnt a whole lot?
Those numbers on their own tell you the quantity of his performance, not the quality

nickdymez
03-24-2015, 05:22 PM
Those numbers on their own tell your the quantity of his performance, not the quality
Yea ok

Jamiecballer
03-24-2015, 05:24 PM
Yea ok
Are all triple doubles equal to you? Or should we change the MVP award to the Triple Double award?

Let's face it, there are degrees here. And there are elements of Westbrook's game that put a small damper on the overall package.

Jeffy25
03-24-2015, 08:01 PM
All this talk about efficiency is making me gag you guys clearly do not at all understand basketball and what it takes to win at that level where about half of the 500 best players in basketball are considered bad players.
You need so much depth and diversity in your game to even think about getting that far certain parts of there game may look lacking compared to these other monster players but you bring any of them even willie green or hasseem thabeet to your local YMCA and they will be substantially better in every single aspect of basketball than anyone else there even there weakest aspects will look god tier by comparison Statistics and comparisons can NEVER begin to show the talent of any NBA player.

Nobody on here is saying these guys are garbage, or doesn't already recognize the immense talent level to be a pro at this.

The conversation entails the entirety of one's game.

Jeffy25
03-24-2015, 08:03 PM
Im just saying that trying to draw correlations between ai with melo vs durrant with west and then saying one has a better efficiency percentage is useless... totally and utterly useless! Dont you see? This stat argument is such a waist of time the game is so different with 5 people on the floor it just wasn't melo and ai playing 2on2 and durrant and west playing 2on2... it was a 5on5 game plus a coach affecting your stupid stupid stupid stats? I don't know how else to say it but these stats mean nothing because the situation was completely different melo isn't durrant, westbrook isn't ai. Only thing moneyball stat stuff works with is baseball (but i know shi**** about baseball so even then who knows) it has no place in basketball and is a waist of time and a useless argument. I know barkley is a straight up idiot in every aspect of common sense but he knows basketball better then any of you or i and knows that all this stat stuff is a waist of time.

Also I made a correlation before of AI and west having similar style of play and thats as far as the convo should go. trying to put stats against them is meaningless its a 5on5 game - again what you stat people can't get through your heads. Its so frustrating, just watch the game and recognize west for what he is historic and mvp caliber 1/2/or 3 spot in the debate without question.

but wait again usage %

This is mindless drivel.

Maybe read what he said, you are making something personal that has no need to be.

Understand what he is saying, before you lash out like this, it will help you save face.

Jeffy25
03-24-2015, 08:12 PM
I laugh listening to these advanced stat people on this site. You can tell that none of them ever played any type of organized basketball, yet they talk like they speak for "True fans". So now since someone invented a formula to judge basketball players on, no basketball player was ever good unless its under the guidelines of advanced stats. lmao. Thats ridiculous. If someone averaged 30 ppg, its not good anymore. 15 assists a game isnt good anymore, 20 rebounds isnt good anymore.

I played through high school :shrug:

Weakest, dumbest, most Ill informed response imaginable is to counter that someone must not have played because they understand the context of additional statistical information.


What I find even more impressive, is that through all of this, all that these 'stat geeks' have done has parlayed the context of Westbrook racking up triple doubles into the information that he has that partly because he touches the ball far more than any other offensive player in the game. If another elite offensive player like Harden or Bron has a usage that high, they too would probably be posting multiple triple doubles.

What on earth is wrong with pointing that out?


You guys take such a great offense to people posting context to the game that you flip out and attack people that do for absolutely no reason and for no cause.

It's information, and I'm sorry, but you are flat out ignorant to blanket ignore it simply because you either don't understand it or don't care to. It's additional information, if you don't like knowing more information, then ignore it and move on. That is your prerogative.

But to blast people for providing it is nothing short of insecure ignorance, riddled in crap like "stat geeks, you clearly never played"

Might be the weakest, most poorly informed response a person could come up with, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the arguments, nothing to do with a persons ability to comprehend simple minded stats, and has nothing to do with a persons ability to reason and form conclusions on an entertainment event like basketball. It literally takes less than no thought to form it, and it shows how ignorant a person can be.

I wish you guys luck in life, because it's just silly to get this upset over people sharing additional information, like the frequency that Westbrook touches the ball and how that could affect the numbers he posts.

ballallday
03-24-2015, 08:16 PM
This is mindless drivel.

Maybe read what he said, you are making something personal that has no need to be.

Understand what he is saying, before you lash out like this, it will help you save face.

Agreed my bad

but the stats debate using player x from now to player y back then can't be something that can be used... too many factors go into it!

Scoots
07-27-2015, 06:06 PM
But can you show me where a Tiara helps with my advanced stats?

TrueFan420
07-27-2015, 06:16 PM
When I first clicked in here I was wondering what agenda led to this thread being bumped... Tiara's were the last thing that I expected

numba1CHANGsta
07-27-2015, 06:36 PM
But can you show me where a Tiara helps with my advanced stats?

you're a tool

IBleedPurple
07-27-2015, 06:52 PM
When I first clicked in here I was wondering what agenda led to this thread being bumped... Tiara's were the last thing that I expectedThis. We were trolled by an imbecile.

Scoots
07-28-2015, 02:14 AM
you're a tool

Actually the spam post that brought this back to life was a long post advertising tiaras. I chose not to quote it as it would serve their purpose. It is now predictably deleted. :)