PDA

View Full Version : Would you vote "Westy" for MVP if OKC missed the playoffs?



JasonJohnHorn
03-20-2015, 01:46 PM
People usually go on about how the MVP should be given to the best player on the best team.

Others say it should go to the best player period.

Still others say if should to to the player who was most central to his team's success.


Whatever the perspective, it seems that Russell Westbrook has been getting a lot of MVP buzz, but the Thunder are only a game ahead of the Pelicans for the 8th spot, and with KD sidelined 'infidelity', the Thunder may very well be in the lottery.

If that were to happen, would you still be willing to vote for Westbrook as the MVP?


The last time a player won the MVP and his team did NOT make the playoffs was 1976. Kareem won, and if memory serves correct, the media did not vote for MVP; the players did.

Thoughts?

goingfor28
03-20-2015, 01:50 PM
No chance

RLundi
03-20-2015, 01:55 PM
I wouldn't vote for Westbrook even if OKC did make the playoffs. He's a bull in a horse race. He might make it to the finish line but he won't stay within the lines and he'll probably hurt his rider with his lack of control and unbridled aggression. Meanwhile, Harden and Curry have been excellent racers for the entire year. They shouldn't be penalized because the bull brings a little bit of novelty to the equation.

cmellofan15
03-20-2015, 02:03 PM
I wouldn't vote for Westbrook or Davis with their teams being the at the bottom of the wc playoff picture.

valade16
03-20-2015, 02:08 PM
I think the question is based on the supposition that Westbrook is indeed the best player or MVP and the only argument against his candidacy is his teams lackluster record.

I do not believe this to be the case. Westbrook is certainly behind Curry and Harden in nearly every measure regarding MVP and one could also make the case that LeBron and Anthony Davis deserve to be ahead of him as well.

jerellh528
03-20-2015, 02:14 PM
Nope. With durants recent news, I would probably lean towards westy being mvp is okc somehow locked up 7th seed or higher though

FraziersKnicks
03-20-2015, 02:17 PM
Whether OKC make the playoffs or not I'm not voting him ahead of Curry, Harden and LeBron in that order. Maybe even CP3 ahead of him as well.

jerellh528
03-20-2015, 02:25 PM
Top 5

Harden
Curry
Westbrook
Davis
Marc

IndyRealist
03-20-2015, 02:29 PM
I'm not sure how it can't be Curry at this point, unless Lebron goes on a tear the rest of the season. I'd give the nod to Davis before I would to Westbrook.

JasonJohnHorn
03-20-2015, 02:52 PM
I think the question is based on the supposition that Westbrook is indeed the best player or MVP and the only argument against his candidacy is his teams lackluster record.

I do not believe this to be the case. Westbrook is certainly behind Curry and Harden in nearly every measure regarding MVP and one could also make the case that LeBron and Anthony Davis deserve to be ahead of him as well.

I'm of the same mind here. My vote would likely go to Curry and M. Gasol, then LBJ and Davis with Harden getting somewhere in there depending on my mood.


I've just heard a lot of people going on about Westy having an MVP year.

DanG
03-20-2015, 04:43 PM
It's between Harden and Curry and no one else comes close IMO. Westbrook and LeBron are both hyped up by nba.com.

Harden - 27/6/7 on 44% shooting, Houston is 46-22 in the WEST (20-6 against the east) and doing it without Dwight. And Harden hasn't missed any time except one game due to suspension.

Curry - 23/4/8 on 48% shooting in 33MPG. Leads the league in WS/48. Best player on the best team and GSW won the season series 4-0 against Houston. He also has missed only 2 games this season.

I don't see any player having a stronger case than these two have. LeBron and Westbrook have missed much more time plus LeBron is playing in the east and OKC is fighting for a playoff spot. Now, I'm not saying that you can't win the award while playing in the east, but 44-26 and 2nd seed is just not enough right now. And Kyrie has been helping LeBron quite alot.

HeatFan
03-20-2015, 05:06 PM
I understand why people have the whole "good team" argument when considering an MVP candidate and that fact that they usually have to be from a winning team is not absurd to me. However, I would definitely vote for him.

For me, the award is to which player is really the most valuable to his team. In this regard, if your team ended 35-47, but you can fairly say that the team would have ended 10-72 had it not been for one player, then there is a 25 game turnaround.

If your team finishes 55-27, but it would have been 45-37 had the MVP candidate not played, that is only a 10 game difference.

So hence, IMO, the player that meant 25 more wins is more valuable then the player that meant 10 more wins.

Of course I am using specific numbers and once a season is over you really don't have a way to determine how much more or less the record would have been without a player. But, considering many factors I would say that in terms of who is more valuable, you can't disregard the value of a player just because the record is worse or better than another team. In fact, if the analysis is based on team success only, than just select the best player of the team with the best record.

If you take Curry out of the Warriors, Harden out of the Rockets (assuming Howard is playing), and Lebron out of the Cavs, I'm sure that the drop off would not be as bad as taking Westbrook out of OKC right now. I think that even taking Davis out of the Pelicans wouldn't be as bad as taking Westbrook away.

TylerSL
03-20-2015, 07:06 PM
Not with the way James Harden and Steph Curry are playing. Westbrook has been terrific, but Harden is playing similar to the way Westbrook is, under similar circumstances (without Dwight) and in the same conference. Harden's team is having much greater success that Westbrook's team with very similar circumstances. As of right now, the MVP voting goes as following

1. James Harden
2. Steph Curry
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Anthony Davis
5. Lebron James

Goose17
03-20-2015, 07:32 PM
I wouldn't vote Westy if he made the playoffs never mind if they don't.

It's Harden or Curry all the way with LeBron trailing a little behind.

Jamiecballer
03-20-2015, 08:04 PM
I can't imagine any scenario where I would give him the MVP.

MTar786
03-21-2015, 06:25 AM
i think westbrook should get mvp if they get the 8th seed. but he wont

cahawk
03-21-2015, 11:14 PM
Shoots way too bad of fg % & 3pt%

More-Than-Most
03-21-2015, 11:29 PM
Sorry but I would go James

ghettosean
03-22-2015, 12:32 AM
Sorry but I would go James

James Harden is a tough one for me I'd pick Steph Curry because they got the best record right now and he's playing out of this world. Though James Harden is playing in the same tough conference without Dwight most of the year with an amazing record while not having there #2 guy on there team for most of the year. It's tough a call between them that's for sure.

PayDaPiper
03-22-2015, 12:58 AM
Westbrook, Durant, Harden, boy did OKC screw that up royally...

Wait what was the thread about?

jerellh528
03-22-2015, 01:46 AM
Sorry but I would go James

I agree, it's james hardens rigth now unless something crazy happens

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 02:57 AM
Sorry... Lebron James.

Its close offensively when it comes to James and Harden but Id prefer my MVP not be **** on the defensive side of the ball... Defense does have value and Harden is brutal at defense... Harden who i like wouldnt even be in my top 3 because of this factor and its why Melo has never been elevated to superstar... The very best need to be best on both sides of the ball... I would Go James/Curry/CP3

Love has been a shell of his former sell and James has carried them all the way to the 2 seed in yes a weak East but last I remember people wanted everyone traded and were calling the cavs a 7-8 seed and so on down the list about 30 games ago until James put everyone right back in their place.

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 03:01 AM
Also the amount of disrespect CP3 gets is amazing... Another year where he is insane and most people dont even have him in the top 5 in MVP voting.

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 03:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC53cIJC_00

http://www.thedreamshake.com/2015/1/19/7852819/james-harden-defense-Rockets-MVP


http://regressing.deadspin.com/chart-of-james-hardens-defense-looks-just-as-bad-as-you-1687812356

this is the guy people think deserves mvp? Really?

jerellh528
03-22-2015, 03:14 AM
Sorry... Lebron James.

Its close offensively when it comes to James and Harden but Id prefer my MVP not be **** on the defensive side of the ball... Defense does have value and Harden is brutal at defense... Harden who i like wouldnt even be in my top 3 because of this factor and its why Melo has never been elevated to superstar... The very best need to be best on both sides of the ball... I would Go James/Curry/CP3

Love has been a shell of his former sell and James has carried them all the way to the 2 seed in yes a weak East but last I remember people wanted everyone traded and were calling the cavs a 7-8 seed and so on down the list about 30 games ago until James put everyone right back in their place.

Oh Lebron james? Lol. Nah, cavs were playing pretty bad under james' watch until the new reincforcements arrived. Then with the newfound team mates and a nice rest, james went on a 7 or 8 game burst, but since then, it's arguable that kyrie has been their most important player. Plus they're in the east, plus it's a fairly stacked roster compared to hardens or westbrook's. Actually over the last month or so, I think kyrie is outscoring james on better effeciency. That was last time I checked though, about a week ago. It's crazy the impact mozgov has had for the cavs too. Just look at their defense before and after his arrival.

tredigs
03-22-2015, 03:18 AM
Odds wise Lebron's in 4th place. Curry's a fairly heavy favorite. Harden shooting 37% since the ASB isn't helping his case and Westbrook's run has propped him up to #2 just above him (I disagree here, but that's where the #'s are at).

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 03:27 AM
Oh Lebron james? Lol. Nah, cavs were playing pretty bad under james' watch until the new reincforcements arrived. Then with the newfound team mates and a nice rest, james went on a 7 or 8 game burst, but since then, it's arguable that kyrie has been their most important player. Plus they're in the east, plus it's a fairly stacked roster compared to hardens or westbrook's. Actually over the last month or so, I think kyrie is outscoring james on better effeciency. That was last time I checked though, about a week ago. It's crazy the impact mozgov has had for the cavs too. Just look at their defense before and after his arrival.

I dont mind if people wanna put a cp3 or a curry over him and you are severely underrating James as usual which is fine but I can see no argument for a harden. I like Harden alot. I defended him alot last year and think he is one of the top players in the league but in no way shape or form should he be anywhere close when it comes to the MVP voting with that defense... Also it wasnt the trades that put them over the hump... It was when James came back from Injury where he put every single player on his back over a 10 plus game span and just flat out dominated.... Over the last few games Kyrie has been good but not that many games sorry and stacked team? They have a few good pieces but with how lack luster love has been they arent nearly as perfect as you are making them out to be.

The Cavs are 24-6 since he took a two-week hiatus to recharge himself, both mentally and physically. With a PER of 26.08... that is Insane.

tredigs
03-22-2015, 03:43 AM
I dont mind if people wanna put a cp3 or a curry over him and you are severely underrating James as usual which is fine but I can see no argument for a harden. I like Harden alot. I defended him alot last year and think he is one of the top players in the league but in no way shape or form should he be anywhere close when it comes to the MVP voting with that defense... Also it wasnt the trades that put them over the hump... It was when James came back from Injury where he put every single player on his back over a 10 plus game span and just flat out dominated.... Over the last few games Kyrie has been good but not that many games sorry and stacked team? They have a few good pieces but with how lack luster love has been they arent nearly as perfect as you are making them out to be.

The Cavs are 24-6 since he took a two-week hiatus to recharge himself, both mentally and physically. With a PER of 26.08... that is Insane.

After the trade their defense took a huge leap forward. James was better, naturally, but to me that is the stark difference in the team. There is nothing "insane" about a PER of 26.08. Insane is a PER of 30, which he's done and multiple other players are currently doing this season. Him not being top 4 in PER this year is really what's insane.

Regardless, you really shouldn't be in MVP discussions with the amount of time Westbrook and Lebron have missed, especially with all the other shortcomings that come with their resume this season.

And "Kyrie's been good over the last few games but not that many"? The ****? Since before Christmas he's averaging 23/4/5 on 48/44/88 with just 2.8 TO's. That's a fairly solid definition of elite for months on end. They're 1-4 in the 5 games he's missed in that span.

100% on CP3 not getting enough love though. He is my #3, very close to #2.

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 03:45 AM
After the trade their defense took a huge leap forward. James was better, naturally, but to me that is the stark difference in the team. There is nothing "insane" about a PER of 26.08. Insane is a PER of 30, which he's done and multiple other players are currently doing this season. Him not being top 4 in PER this year is really what's insane.

Regardless, you really shouldn't be in MVP discussions with the amount of time Westbrook and Lebron have missed, especially with all the other shortcomings that come with their resume this season.

And "Kyrie's been good over the last few games but not that many"? The ****? Since before Christmas he's averaging 23/4/5 on 48/44/88 with just 2.8 TO's. That's a fairly solid definition of elite for months on end. They're 1-4 in the 5 games he's missed in that span.

2-11 in the games james has missed I believe as well.... Also I have no issues with him 3rd or even 4th but i cant see anyones argument of Harden over him... I just cant. Its like people just forget about defense. They did it with melo for years trying to advocate him as a top 10 player in the NBA

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 03:47 AM
Also you are correct On Kyrie... I didnt realize he has been that good this year.

tredigs
03-22-2015, 03:55 AM
Lebron's D was utter trash to start the year as well though (muchh better since the vacation). And Harden's D has improved. He still has his clear lapses and wtf moments on that end, but he's better. Harden playing virtually every game and being the clear #1 reason why they are a top 3 seed in an insanely tough conference (+ a better record than the Cavs) is enough reason to warrant a vote over Lebron imo. I get both sides, but I'm leaning Harden here (for 2-4 range) despite the major shooting struggles over the last month.

I still don't think the case is open or shut for any of those 4 though, as far as actual voters go.

More-Than-Most
03-22-2015, 04:00 AM
Only unless he had amputated a Limb his defense had to be better this year but its not much better... Its still that bad to the point its almost nonexistent... He is trying harder but not even half of the time and overall he is just a dumb player defensively.... Honestly and its not saying he isn't one of the best in the game because he is that sick offensively that it keeps him in the conversation for top 10 this year .... But his offense isn't enough to make up for that defense.

slashsnake
03-22-2015, 05:35 AM
Oh Lebron james? Lol. Nah, cavs were playing pretty bad under james' watch until the new reincforcements arrived. Then with the newfound team mates and a nice rest, james went on a 7 or 8 game burst, but since then, it's arguable that kyrie has been their most important player.

Not really arguable by anyone that Kyrie is better or more important than James this year. Nice to see his turnovers take that major drop. He still is bringing up the ball and running the offense through him every single posession correct? No point forward taking some of the usage there???

His PER is up again this year for Kyrie, back up to the level of his first two seasons in the league. He's not playing for a lottery pick again because Lebron is back though.

And they weren't playing too bad with James. I think you are including that 1-8 stretch with Kyrie playing that James missed as "playing bad under James' watch" and not the 13 of 15 games they won with James in the lineup before that time he missed, and before the "reinforcements" showed up.



Basically the Cavs were a meh team to start the season for the first few weeks as they first played together. D was a mess, O was all over.

A 2-9 team when Lebron is out. Reinforcements and Kyrie or not, they played bad D in that stretch too.

But since that first 3 weeks, reinforcements or not, Cleveland is a 38-10 team with Lebron playing.



That's a 79% win rate, pace for 65 wins over a full year. That's an amazing pace. 65 wins is something only two teams have surpassed in the last 6 years. By the 2008 Cavs and by the 2012 Heat. Those teams have something in common between them... I don't think it's Kyrie.. But there's something about those two teams that seems to have a similar part.

Yes Kyrie's efficiency has taken a nice uptick this year, from being a 43% shooter last year to a 47% shooter this season. Meanwhile Tristan Thompson went from shooting 48% to 55% and Varejao went from shooting 49% to 56% (highest since he had that big drop about 5 years ago for some reason).

In a seemingly unrelated note, Dwyane Wade this year went from shooting 55% to shooting 48% and Bosh went from shooting 52% to 46% and Chalmers went from shooting 45% to 41%, and Haslem went from shooting 51% to 43%.

If only we had something that tied that big increase in efficiency among most Cavs and the big decrease in efficiency among most Heat players all in one simple answer... Whatever it is, it seemed to just pop out of nowhere after this past off-season. Some kind of integral change to the makeups of those two franchises that reversed their paths in terms of efficiency and record.



To be honest though, even though that Lebron impact is just huge, I'm fine with Curry winning it. Great player on the best team in the league. Lebron might have the 2nd best record of the MVP candidates, but his missed games hurt them.