PDA

View Full Version : What is the Bulls FO doing?



DemarDerozan
03-13-2015, 08:08 PM
They are very close to losing a once in a generation type coach.

http://athlonsports.com/nba/things-look-be-ending-between-tom-thibodeau-and-chicago-bulls


Thibs made a Bulls team whose most productive players were Noah, Heinrich and ****ing Nate Robinson, a legit playoff contender.
The Bulls have a few nice pieces now. But they would be nowhere without Thibs.
I can see them pulling in a marquee coach now that the team is built...
Similar to how the Pistons fired Carlisle and hired Larry Brown.

Regardless, the Bulls FO will most likely lose Carlisle to the Knicks or Lakers. And this Bulls team is not the 2003 Pistons. Not even close.

Other notes. They failed to lock up Jimmy Buckets with a contract extension last summer by low-balling him. They traded Deng who was a perfect fit in Thibs system. Also, they let Korver walk.

What will Chicago do next year once they have completely lost Thibs/direction?

BTW I personally love watching this gritty Bulls squad play and have for the past few years.

Sofnr
03-13-2015, 08:26 PM
Troll thread? That article offers nothing new and provides no facts about the Thibs situation. He's just speculating on rumors. There's certainly plenty of smoke there so it's possible Thibs might look elsewhere when his deal is up. But neither side has ever said anything about a split. I'll believe it when i see it. There was nothing wrong with the Deng trade. It freed up time for Jimmy to play. And anybody who wants to look back in hindsight and claim they knew how Jimmy would improve this year and should have offered him a better extension before is full of it. The Bulls FO is far from perfect. But they keep the team contending year after year. A lot of other teams would be happy to be in thier current position.

Bruno
03-13-2015, 08:33 PM
he's a brilliant coach. but he runs his players into the ground. his rotations and minute distribution are strategically devolved. the best coaches understand that it's a marathon not a sprint. the best coaches also tend to develop ten deep, something the bulls are fully capable of doing. but he doesn't, Butler lead the NBA in mpg before going down. his rotations are too short, his plays his big guns way too often and they break down. especially under his demanding system. his front office traded two firsts for McDermott, he hasn't developed him at all, meanwhile the guy who plays his position in the starting line up breaks down because he's been carrying too big a load. they couldn't have knocked Jimmys minutes down 2-3 per game and let Mirotic, Snell or McDermott get more experience so they aren't totally useless come playoffs? At least Snell has been getting more run and Mirotic gets opportunities when one of the three bigs are out.

if i'm the bulls id rather lose a great defensive coach then be glued to a guy who will run his stars into the ground before the finals. the league has changed, thibs is still operating under old norms where men were men and played all 82 games without breaking down.

i'm also open to bulls fans who watch more bulls than I do telling me why I'm mistaken.

chi-townlove1
03-13-2015, 08:38 PM
Your 100% right man. ^^ like I couldn't say it any nicer

SlimKid
03-13-2015, 09:11 PM
Old school, new school, whatever.. I'd love to have Thibs coach my team.

mudvayne387
03-13-2015, 10:03 PM
As a 49ers fan trust me when I say that this stuff doesn't leak out by accident. Anything less than an NBA title and Thibs will be coaching elsewhere next season.

FlashBolt
03-13-2015, 10:29 PM
Thibs HAS to run his stars to the ground. He's had a team with so many injuries that it has forced him to resort to it in the first place. Surely, if he had a healthy team all season, this wouldn't be the case. Lets also not forget that the Bulls are known for being grinders and one of those teams you just don't want to face. That's due to the fact that they hustle every play and are able to do it consistently (before this season). He's a huge reason for the Bulls success. Instead of blaming Thibs, just get Rose off your payroll and you'll be fine.

Captain Moroni
03-13-2015, 10:40 PM
Cleveland adds players it needs. Chicago doesn't. The FO needs an overhaul

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-14-2015, 12:31 AM
Cleveland adds players it needs. Chicago doesn't. The FO needs an overhaul

Ya it's real easy to "Add" players when you've had three #1 picks in the last 4 years and some guy deciding to come crawling back as soon as he saw fresh young meat compared to the stale fungus that was building up in Miami.

WOwolfOL
03-14-2015, 01:25 AM
he's a brilliant coach. but he runs his players into the ground. his rotations and minute distribution are strategically devolved. the best coaches understand that it's a marathon not a sprint. the best coaches also tend to develop ten deep, something the bulls are fully capable of doing. but he doesn't, Butler lead the NBA in mpg before going down. his rotations are too short, his plays his big guns way too often and they break down. especially under his demanding system. his front office traded two firsts for McDermott, he hasn't developed him at all, meanwhile the guy who plays his position in the starting line up breaks down because he's been carrying too big a load. they couldn't have knocked Jimmys minutes down 2-3 per game and let Mirotic, Snell or McDermott get more experience so they aren't totally useless come playoffs? At least Snell has been getting more run and Mirotic gets opportunities when one of the three bigs are out.

if i'm the bulls id rather lose a great defensive coach then be glued to a guy who will run his stars into the ground before the finals. the league has changed, thibs is still operating under old norms where men were men and played all 82 games without breaking down.

i'm also open to bulls fans who watch more bulls than I do telling me why I'm mistaken.
Jimmy's injury did not happen because he played too many minutes. That could have happened to anybody.

IKnowHoops
03-14-2015, 01:47 AM
ya it's real easy to "add" players when you've had three #1 picks in the last 4 years and some guy deciding to come crawling back as soon as he saw fresh young meat compared to the stale fungus that was building up in miami.

lol

ewing
03-14-2015, 09:13 AM
Thibs is a great coach, if you think he plays guys too many mins or doesn't devleope guys in game enough thats fine but overall he is a great coach

nycericanguy
03-14-2015, 10:11 AM
Jimmy's injury did not happen because he played too many minutes. That could have happened to anybody.

People always say this but when does an injury happen because of a coach?... lol... never..

But if a guy is playing 40mpg vs say... 35mpg... well then the guy playing longer obviously has more of a chance of getting hurt. 5mpg over the course of a season adds up to almost 7 hours more on the court...

You're telling me a guy that's on the court 7 hours longer over the course of a season doesn't have a better chance of getting hurt?

Even Pau is playing more mpg than he has since 11-12 season, at an age where he should be playing less minutes.

Thibs is a great coach though and anyone would love to have him, just had to say taht though about injuries, because people always say "its not the coaches fault"... well of course no coach is ever DIRECTLY responsible for hurting a player...lol.

beasted86
03-14-2015, 10:33 AM
It's funny how the Bulls are the best team in the NBA and favorite to win the title and have the greatest chemistry and strongest defense and best fan base in the fall, and then come summertime they:

-Just needed more experience for Rose to become a better closer, this was his first deep playoff run, and to add a SG
-Just need their MVP to recover from his surgery and to add a SG
-Just need Rose back
-Just need Rose back and to amnesty Boozer to get a second star
-Just need Rose back and for Thibs to stop running his players into the ground

How will the story continue next season? Stay tuned...

I think they need to clear the front office starting with Reinsdorf, Paxson and Forman before even considering dropping such a good coach. I guess they should give Vinny a call back, he'll come cheap, just as the owner likes it.

nycericanguy
03-14-2015, 10:45 AM
Bulls are a great team they are just built around a lot of injury prone guys... It's going to be hard for them to ever have their complete team healthy, especially now with Gasol and as Noah gets into his 30's and Thibs doesn't help keep them fresh either.

Maybe they would be better off coasting through the regular season and trying to have a healthy squad come playoffs even if they are a lower seed.

Shammyguy3
03-14-2015, 11:35 AM
They are very close to losing a once in a generation type coach.

http://athlonsports.com/nba/things-look-be-ending-between-tom-thibodeau-and-chicago-bulls


Supposedly the Knicks were very close to getting Thibs as a coach after the Bulls and Thibs were gonna part ways. That didn't happen. You have no idea how close the Bulls are to losing Thibs, and neither do I. So instead of rallying around rumors that may or may not be true, and instead of myself defending or supporting said rumors, I'd rather avoid this topic for now until something ACTUALLY happens. (Although, there are a number of Bulls' beat writers in Chicago that are saying it's moreso Thibs pushing his way out instead of GarPax wanting him gone. But I have yet to notice anyone in this main forum mention that...)


Thibs made a Bulls team whose most productive players were Noah, Heinrich and ****ing Nate Robinson, a legit playoff contender.
The Bulls have a few nice pieces now. But they would be nowhere without Thibs.
I can see them pulling in a marquee coach now that the team is built...
Similar to how the Pistons fired Carlisle and hired Larry Brown.

Regardless, the Bulls FO will most likely lose Carlisle to the Knicks or Lakers. And this Bulls team is not the 2003 Pistons. Not even close.


Thibs is great, I agree.


Other notes. They failed to lock up Jimmy Buckets with a contract extension last summer by low-balling him. They traded Deng who was a perfect fit in Thibs system. Also, they let Korver walk.

What will Chicago do next year once they have completely lost Thibs/direction?

BTW I personally love watching this gritty Bulls squad play and have for the past few years.

Jimmy Butler demanded $14M a year, the Bulls would only go up to $12M a year. That's not a low ball, for a player that posted a 44.6efg% (only 28.3% from deep), 13.3ppg while playing 38.7mpg (so actually he was a 12.2 point per 36min type of player when he demanded such a deal in October). His ORtg was good at 108, but that's nothing ridiculously impressive. He posted a 52.2ts% and 0.131 WS/48. He only had a usage rate of 16.8%, and only an assist rate of 11.1% in the 2013/14 season.

The Bulls REALLY wanted Butler to resign in October. But, Butler had a TON to prove to them offensively. You don't pay a defensive specialist 20% or more of your cap hit.

Obviously in hindsight, Butler put the work in and has become a great fit in Thibs' system. No harm though, the Bulls will quite easily retain Butler, 100% guaranteed.

Luol Deng had to go. You have an outsider's perspective that is welcomed to debate a lot of things, but Luol Deng's time here in Chicago was done for. He was rapidly declining offensively, and he declined the Bulls' final offer of 4 years $40,000,000 to stay with the Bulls. Deng ****ing DECLINED that thinking he could get more on the open market. Well guess what, he signed a 2 year deal to go elsewhere that wasn't as good as the Bulls' final offer. Either Deng messed up, or his agent did. It certainly was NOT the Bulls' Front Office fault though.

" Traded to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Andrew Bynum, a 2014 1st round draft pick, a 2015 2nd round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. Chicago has the option to swap 1st round draft picks with Cleveland in 2015 (if Cleveland's selection is within 15-30)"

That was the deal the Bulls' got. So, they got out from under the luxury tax for a season in which they were not gonna be a contending team, in which case that was a fantastic move because of the league's new CBA repeater luxury tax penalties. Job well done. Then, they received an additional first round pick in last year's draft where they were able to package with their own pick and move up and grab the guy they were vehemently high on (Doug McDermott). Now, it's too soon to tell if that was a great move or a bad move, but because of this trade they got the guy they wanted. And if anything, GarPax are fantastic at drafting players (Noah, Rose, Butler, Gibson, Mirotic, Asik, heck even Tony Snell has been pretty good as of recent months).


Korver walked, but because they let Korver walk they were able to bring in Nate Robinson, Kirk Hinrich, and Marco Belinelli that year (all three who contributed greatly to that playoff run that you only credited Thibs for). So, while every Bulls fan misses Korver his price tag for what he was with us (he has improved since he left) was simply too much when you considered the other holes we had to fill.


As far as the bolded, too early to say. But my guess would be, continue developing around Butler/McDermott/Mirotic and hope that Rose magically becomes somewhat respectable his last two years under his deal until they part ways.

chi-townlove1
03-14-2015, 12:31 PM
This is a chance for bitter heat and cavs fans to trash talk the entire Bulls organization. Some in here were making logical posts. Then it just went all downhill. Pointless to even discuss now. We all love thibs. But he has his flaws. To put any blame on a single person is ridiculous. I think everyone can agree on that. It's just a rough situation. And if he were to go it's not because he's a bad coach it's because the organization and him don't see eye to eye. Simple as that.

KG2TB
03-14-2015, 12:58 PM
It's funny how the Bulls are the best team in the NBA and favorite to win the title and have the greatest chemistry and strongest defense and best fan base in the fall, and then come summertime they:

-Just needed more experience for Rose to become a better closer, this was his first deep playoff run, and to add a SG
-Just need their MVP to recover from his surgery and to add a SG
-Just need Rose back
-Just need Rose back and to amnesty Boozer to get a second star
-Just need Rose back and for Thibs to stop running his players into the ground

How will the story continue next season? Stay tuned...

I think they need to clear the front office starting with Reinsdorf, Paxson and Forman before even considering dropping such a good coach. I guess they should give Vinny a call back, he'll come cheap, just as the owner likes it.

Yeah, it's hilarious when a 22 year old kid who was a top 7 player in the league already, gets injured and hasn't been able to come back from it. Surely, the Bulls would be in no better position if he was healthy :rolleyes:

The Bulls issues are simple. They can't keep their best players on the court at the same time for any extended period of time. That isn't Thibs fault...it's just the nature of the beast.

FlashBolt
03-14-2015, 01:25 PM
Yeah, it's hilarious when a 22 year old kid who was a top 7 player in the league already, gets injured and hasn't been able to come back from it. Surely, the Bulls would be in no better position if he was healthy :rolleyes:

The Bulls issues are simple. They can't keep their best players on the court at the same time for any extended period of time. That isn't Thibs fault...it's just the nature of the beast.

That used to be their issue. Their most prominent issue is having a $20 million per year player who unfortunately, is clearly not worth that money. I reckon that there are ten PG's better than Rose without thinking. Bulls would be an amazing team with any of those ten PG's.

InRoseWeTrust
03-14-2015, 01:41 PM
Lmao @ this entire thread

DemarDerozan
03-14-2015, 02:13 PM
Supposedly the Knicks were very close to getting Thibs as a coach after the Bulls and Thibs were gonna part ways. That didn't happen. You have no idea how close the Bulls are to losing Thibs, and neither do I. So instead of rallying around rumors that may or may not be true, and instead of myself defending or supporting said rumors, I'd rather avoid this topic for now until something ACTUALLY happens. (Although, there are a number of Bulls' beat writers in Chicago that are saying it's moreso Thibs pushing his way out instead of GarPax wanting him gone. But I have yet to notice anyone in this main forum mention that...)



Thibs is great, I agree.



Jimmy Butler demanded $14M a year, the Bulls would only go up to $12M a year. That's not a low ball, for a player that posted a 44.6efg% (only 28.3% from deep), 13.3ppg while playing 38.7mpg (so actually he was a 12.2 point per 36min type of player when he demanded such a deal in October). His ORtg was good at 108, but that's nothing ridiculously impressive. He posted a 52.2ts% and 0.131 WS/48. He only had a usage rate of 16.8%, and only an assist rate of 11.1% in the 2013/14 season.

The Bulls REALLY wanted Butler to resign in October. But, Butler had a TON to prove to them offensively. You don't pay a defensive specialist 20% or more of your cap hit.

Obviously in hindsight, Butler put the work in and has become a great fit in Thibs' system. No harm though, the Bulls will quite easily retain Butler, 100% guaranteed.

Luol Deng had to go. You have an outsider's perspective that is welcomed to debate a lot of things, but Luol Deng's time here in Chicago was done for. He was rapidly declining offensively, and he declined the Bulls' final offer of 4 years $40,000,000 to stay with the Bulls. Deng ****ing DECLINED that thinking he could get more on the open market. Well guess what, he signed a 2 year deal to go elsewhere that wasn't as good as the Bulls' final offer. Either Deng messed up, or his agent did. It certainly was NOT the Bulls' Front Office fault though.

" Traded to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Andrew Bynum, a 2014 1st round draft pick, a 2015 2nd round draft pick and a 2016 2nd round draft pick. Chicago has the option to swap 1st round draft picks with Cleveland in 2015 (if Cleveland's selection is within 15-30)"

That was the deal the Bulls' got. So, they got out from under the luxury tax for a season in which they were not gonna be a contending team, in which case that was a fantastic move because of the league's new CBA repeater luxury tax penalties. Job well done. Then, they received an additional first round pick in last year's draft where they were able to package with their own pick and move up and grab the guy they were vehemently high on (Doug McDermott). Now, it's too soon to tell if that was a great move or a bad move, but because of this trade they got the guy they wanted. And if anything, GarPax are fantastic at drafting players (Noah, Rose, Butler, Gibson, Mirotic, Asik, heck even Tony Snell has been pretty good as of recent months).


Korver walked, but because they let Korver walk they were able to bring in Nate Robinson, Kirk Hinrich, and Marco Belinelli that year (all three who contributed greatly to that playoff run that you only credited Thibs for). So, while every Bulls fan misses Korver his price tag for what he was with us (he has improved since he left) was simply too much when you considered the other holes we had to fill.


As far as the bolded, too early to say. But my guess would be, continue developing around Butler/McDermott/Mirotic and hope that Rose magically becomes somewhat respectable his last two years under his deal until they part ways.

Thanks for the honest contribution to the discussion. I did not mean this to be a troll thread. I actually really like the Bulls team. Didn't Paxton assault Del Negro though shortly before they fired him? Not defending Del Negro, but I'm starting to wonder if Paxton is the real problem here. Similar to a crazy chick who gets divorced four times and thinks there are just no good dudes out there, when in reality she's the problem.

HeatFan
03-14-2015, 02:34 PM
he's a brilliant coach. but he runs his players into the ground. his rotations and minute distribution are strategically devolved. the best coaches understand that it's a marathon not a sprint. the best coaches also tend to develop ten deep, something the bulls are fully capable of doing. but he doesn't, Butler lead the NBA in mpg before going down. his rotations are too short, his plays his big guns way too often and they break down. especially under his demanding system. his front office traded two firsts for McDermott, he hasn't developed him at all, meanwhile the guy who plays his position in the starting line up breaks down because he's been carrying too big a load. they couldn't have knocked Jimmys minutes down 2-3 per game and let Mirotic, Snell or McDermott get more experience so they aren't totally useless come playoffs? At least Snell has been getting more run and Mirotic gets opportunities when one of the three bigs are out.

if i'm the bulls id rather lose a great defensive coach then be glued to a guy who will run his stars into the ground before the finals. the league has changed, thibs is still operating under old norms where men were men and played all 82 games without breaking down.

i'm also open to bulls fans who watch more bulls than I do telling me why I'm mistaken.

I looked up last year's minutes leaders and found:

1. Carmelo Anthony NY 39.0
2. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 38.7
3. Kevin Durant ▪ OKC 38.5
4. DeMar DeRozan ▪ TOR 38.2
5. James Harden ▪ HOU 38.0
6. LeBron James ▪ MIA 37.7
7. Chandler Parsons ▪ HOU 37.6
8. Monta Ellis ▪ DAL 36.9
9. Stephen Curry ▪ GSW 36.5
10. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 36.4
11. John Wall ▪ WAS 36.3
12. Kevin Love ▪ MIN 36.3
13. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 36.2
14. Paul George ▪ IND 36.2
15. LaMarcus Aldridge ▪ POR 36.2
16. Nicolas Batum ▪ POR 36.0
17. Ty Lawson ▪ DEN 35.8
18. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 35.8
19. Kemba Walker ▪ CHA 35.8
20. Blake Griffin ▪ LAC 35.8

90% or more of these players were healthy for all or most of 2013-2014 season. Why then would "over playing" really be a factor. I honestly think that it is just pure bad luck for the Bulls. My Heat in the Pat Riley/Mourning/Hardaway era were known to have the most brutal practices and people complained of getting wore down and they still over achieved in the East and were still in contention for rings year in year out.

kobe4thewinbang
03-14-2015, 04:51 PM
Bulls need a better GM. 'Nuff said. Thibodeau is a quality coach. He's just got nothing to work with. Rose keeps getting hurt. Outside of Noah, Butler and Gasol, what do they really have? Mirotic shows flashes, but they need a serious unit.

Shammyguy3
03-14-2015, 05:16 PM
he's a brilliant coach. but he runs his players into the ground. his rotations and minute distribution are strategically devolved. the best coaches understand that it's a marathon not a sprint. the best coaches also tend to develop ten deep, something the bulls are fully capable of doing. but he doesn't, Butler lead the NBA in mpg before going down. his rotations are too short, his plays his big guns way too often and they break down. especially under his demanding system. his front office traded two firsts for McDermott, he hasn't developed him at all, meanwhile the guy who plays his position in the starting line up breaks down because he's been carrying too big a load. they couldn't have knocked Jimmys minutes down 2-3 per game and let Mirotic, Snell or McDermott get more experience so they aren't totally useless come playoffs? At least Snell has been getting more run and Mirotic gets opportunities when one of the three bigs are out.

if i'm the bulls id rather lose a great defensive coach then be glued to a guy who will run his stars into the ground before the finals. the league has changed, thibs is still operating under old norms where men were men and played all 82 games without breaking down.

i'm also open to bulls fans who watch more bulls than I do telling me why I'm mistaken.

Thibs does not run his players into the ground. This minutes thing has become a monster, I tell ya. First, one sports journalist writes about it because he doesn't have the connections to the Bulls' and their players the way he wishes he did. Then, the snowball effect happens, and everybody in Chicago from beat writers to fans to national fans to national beat writers hops on the train ride because it's the cool thing to do.

The notion that Thibs runs one of his players into the ground is wrong, the notion that he runs multiple playerS into the ground is lazy. Claiming that Thibs doesn't develop his bench is sadly mistaken, and I emphasize the word sadly because Thibs has seemingly become some sort of villain in the eyes of a lot of fans.

Distastefulness, laziness, mob-mentality, etc have all lead to this. Hopefully a vast number of users will read this lengthy post and come away with something outside of "well, a bleacherreport article said it so it must be true!" I hope everyone interprets the data for themselves, and I'm confident that a majority of thinkers out there will agree with my post at its conclusion. Let's dive in:


The league leaders in total minutes and minutes per game of the last 15 years are as follows, followed by the 20th highest total minutes getter and minutes per game getter respectively:

2015: James Harden (2,350 minutes) and Jimmy Butler (38.9 per game); Rudy Gay (2,128) and Pau Gasol (34.8)
2014: Kevin Durant (3,122) and Carmelo Anthony (38.7); Wesley Matthews (2,780) and Blake Griffin (35.8)
2013: Damian Lillard (3,167) and Luol Deng (38.7); Nicolas Batum (2,807) and Chandler Parsons (36.3)
2012: Kevin Durant (2,546) and Luol Deng (39.4); Tyreke Evans (2,162) and Joe Johnson (35.5)
2011: Monta Ellis (3,227) and Monta Ellis (40.3); Dwyane Wade (2,823) and Amare Stoudemire (36.8)

2010: Kevin Durant (3,239) and Monta Ellis (41.4); Jason Kidd (2,881) and Jeff Green (37.1)
2009: Andre Iguodala (3,269) and Andre Iguodala (39.9); Vince Carter (2,946) and Tayshaun Prince (37.3)
2008: Allen Iverson (3,424) and Allen Iverson (41.8); Ricky Davis (2,963) and Brandon Roy (37.7)
2007: Lebron James (3,190) and Allen Iverson (42.5); Charlie Bell (2,848) and Shawn Marion (37.6)
2006: Gilbert Arenas (3,384) and Allen Iverson (43.1); Dwight Howard (3,021) and Rafer Alston (38.6)

2005: Lebron James (3,388) and Lebron James (42.4); Chucky Atkins (2,903) and Steve Francis (38.2)
2004: Joe Johnson (3,331) and Allen Iverson (42.5); Carmelo Anthony (2,995) and Zach Randolph (37.9)
2003: Allen Iverson (3,485) and Allen Iverson (42.5); Rashard Lewis (3,044) and Paul Pierce (39.2)
2002: Antoine Walker (3,406) and Allen Iverson (43.7); Antawn Jamison (3,033) and Anthony Mason (38.3)
2001: Michael Finley (3,443) and Michael Finley (42.0); Jason Kidd (3,065) and Reggie Miller (39.3)



There it is, the last 15 years including this season. Bruno argues that the league is changing in terms of minutes and minute load, and I think this breakdown agrees with Bruno's argument. Where his argument falls short though, is that he's excluding Thibodeau from being part of that evolution.

Thibs isn't doing something that others aren't doing, whether it's today or in the past. It's okay for other teams to "drive their players into the ground" but it's not okay for the Chicago coach, I get it. Now below is the number of teams per year that had multiple players in that top-20 minutes and/or minutes per game mark (since Thibs became the Bulls' HC):

Year 2015
1) Houston (the 1st and 2nd total minutes getters and the 3rd and 9th minute per game getters)
2) Cleveland (the 4th and 12th minutes getters and the 2nd and 4th per game getters)
3) Clippers (the 5th and 7th minutes getters and the 12th and 17th per game getters)
4) Portland (the 6th minutes getter and the 5th and 6th per game getters)
5) Chicago (the 14th and 19th minutes getters and the 1st and 20th per game getters)

Does anyone find it odd that all of those teams have championship aspirations? I'd like to highlight Cleveland here, because of Lebron hadn't taken off a few weeks they'd be the only team in the league to not just have 3 guys in the top-20 total minutes getters, or the top-20 per game getters, yet they'd be the only team to do so in both categories. But no, Thibs is a ruthless, old-school grinder that can't keep up with the times. Along with these other 4 teams I guess.

Year 2014
1) Toronto (the 3rd and 13th minutes getters and the 4th and 13th per game getters)
2) Portland (the 6th, 7th, and 20th minutes getters and the 15th, 16th, and 18th per game getters)
3) Clippers (the 10th and 12th minutes getters and the 20th per game getter)
4) Golden State (the 11th and 14th minutes getters and the 9th per game getter)

no Chicago, hmmm... but Thibs was supposed to be this barbaric, minute-dictator. Also, Portland's HC Terry Stotts has done something nobody else has done: have three guys in the top-20 total minutes AND per game on his team. Grab your pitchforks everyone, let's get this sucker! (just wait, he almost does it again in back to back seasons!)

Year 2013
1) Portland (the 1st and 20th minutes getters and the 3rd, 5th, and 9th per game getters)
2) Oklahoma City (the 2nd and 17th minutes getters and the 4th per game getter)
3) Milwaukee (the 3rd and 14th minutes getters and the 12th per game getter)
4) Houston (the 6th minutes getter and the 6th and 20th per game getters)
5) Golden State (the 7th, 9th, and 12th minutes getters and the 7th and 15h per game getters)
6) Philadelphia (the 10th and 15h minutes getters and the 11th per game getter)
7) Chicago (the 13th minute getter and the 1st and 16h per game getters)
8) Brooklyn (the 19th minutes getter and the 18th and 19th per game getters)

Year 2012
1) Oklahoma City (the 1st and 7th minutes getters and the 3rd per game getter)
2) Lakers (the 2nd minutes getter and the 4th and 7th per game getters)
3) Memphis (the 3rd, 6th, and 18th minutes getters and the 8th and 12th per game getters)
4) Clippers (the 4th and 17th minutes getters and the 13th and 16th per game getters)
5) Atlanta (the 9th and 16th minutes getters and the 20th per game getter)
6) Philly (the 13th and 15th minutes getters and the 19th per game getter)

This year, the Bulls had nobody in the top-20 for total minutes played, and only one in the top-20 minutes per game (Deng lead the league that year, but missed 12 games). You can interpret all of these numbers and the comparisons I'm making between the Bulls' players and their minutes to every other team's players and minutes and come up with your own conclusions, but thus far I must say I'm starting to think Thibs isn't doing anything maniacal. If he is, then so is seemingly half the league. Funny enough, Thibs did this in perhaps the most strenuous season yet due to the lockout, and even funnier perhaps is that the 2012 Bulls' was the best roster he ever had. Strange, a carpenter using all of his tools when he has good tools to use.

Year 2011
1) Warriors (the 1st and 4th minutes getters and the 1st and 7th per game getters)
2) Chicago (the 3rd and 9th minutes getters and the 4th and 14th per game getters)
3) Clippers (the 5th minutes getter and the 8th and 12th minutes getters)
4) Miami (the 6th and 20th minutes getters and the 6th and 16th minutes getters)
5) Oklahoma City (the 7th and 19th minutes getters and the 5th per game getter)


I mean, c'mon. Who in their right mind would play Luol Deng 38.7mpg (the lowest minutes per game leader in the last 25 years IIRC from a post I made a year ago), Jimmy Butler 38.9mpg (the 3rd lowest mark in the last 25 odd years, IIRC again)?

end the sarcasm. What has Thibs done, outside of leading a contending team by playing his best players more than his lesser players? Every team in the history of the league has done that. SOMEONE has to lead the league in minutes, but if it's one of Thibs players donning black/red then boyyyyy is it a party foul if I've ever seen one.

My closing argument:
James Harden from age 23-25 has averaged 37.7 minutes a game.
Kevin Durant from age 23-25 averaged 38.5 minutes a game.
Dwyane Wade from age 23-25 averaged 38.3 minutes a game.
Jimmy Butler from age 24-25 under Thibs has averaged 38.8 minutes a game.

Lebron James from age 25-27 averaged 38.5 minutes a game.
Andre Iguodala from age 25-27 averaged 38.7 minutes a game
Tim Duncan from age 25-27 averaged 39.0 minutes a game.
Kobe Bryant from age 25-27 averaged 39.9 minutes a game.
Allen Iverson, from age 21-32 averaged 41.8 minutes a game.
Luol Deng from age 25-27 under Thibs averaged 39.1 minutes a game.



Nope, I think people who dislike Thibs' minutes are nuts. I think he's the only coach of a contender that people chastise for playing his best players minutes. He's the only coach who can't play a player in their prime 38 minutes a game, because he's doing it by force or something. Yeah, sounds about right.

Goose17
03-14-2015, 05:21 PM
They did a great job adding Pau. I don't see why the front office would need an overhaul.

Maybe they need a different coach with a different philosophy? It's not a knock on Thibs. Sometimes a coach can be a bad fit (just like a player can) but it doesnt mean they suck (just like a player) and it doesn't mean it's a bad idea to part ways.

I'm more interested to see what they do about Rose. Pau is playing well but he's in his mid 30s, Noah is 30ish, Dunleavy is 34. What is the window for this team in terms of championship or even finals aspirations?

Heaven forbid Rose retires or ends up playing but as a shadow of himself. No Rose, a front court where the youngest player is 30, a very mixed bench talent wise. Outside of Butler their future isnt spectacular.

So is bringing in a new coach the right move? I don't know. But if they stick with Thibs they really need to look at the long term scenario.

KG2TB
03-14-2015, 05:26 PM
That used to be their issue. Their most prominent issue is having a $20 million per year player who unfortunately, is clearly not worth that money. I reckon that there are ten PG's better than Rose without thinking. Bulls would be an amazing team with any of those ten PG's.

Isn't that the same issue? He hasn't been able to come back to form....Clearly THAT and his contract are the problem. However, in order for Rose to even begin to improve his game and work his way back into a top 10 PG discussion, he has to stay healthy and play which still hasn't happened. We can't have all our top guys on the floor at the same time..like I said. That's obviously not limited to Rose. Noah, Butler, Taj all play into it as well.

Shammyguy3
03-14-2015, 05:45 PM
Thanks for the honest contribution to the discussion. I did not mean this to be a troll thread. I actually really like the Bulls team. Didn't Paxton assault Del Negro though shortly before they fired him? Not defending Del Negro, but I'm starting to wonder if Paxton is the real problem here. Similar to a crazy chick who gets divorced four times and thinks there are just no good dudes out there, when in reality she's the problem.

John Paxson is a firey dude that wants to win. Del Negro pretty much refused to play Derrick Rose in 4th quarters, instead opting for older players which had no future on the team. The second Paxson and Del Negro's altercation occurred, Rose FINALLY started seeing minutes in 4th quarters, and finally started taking more of the offensive load.

HeatFan
03-14-2015, 05:52 PM
They did a great job adding Pau. I don't see why the front office would need an overhaul.

Maybe they need a different coach with a different philosophy? It's not a knock on Thibs. Sometimes a coach can be a bad fit (just like a player can) but it doesnt mean they suck (just like a player) and it doesn't mean it's a bad idea to part ways.

I'm more interested to see what they do about Rose. Pau is playing well but he's in his mid 30s, Noah is 30ish, Dunleavy is 34. What is the window for this team in terms of championship or even finals aspirations?

Heaven forbid Rose retires or ends up playing but as a shadow of himself. No Rose, a front court where the youngest player is 30, a very mixed bench talent wise. Outside of Butler their future isnt spectacular.

So is bringing in a new coach the right move? I don't know. But if they stick with Thibs they really need to look at the long term scenario.

I agree that it just might be that he is not a good fit. But being a good fit is different than some of the arguments I've read about him playing his key players too much.

This is kind of like Carlisle in Detroit, they let him go and boom, Larry Brown wins them a ring (although getting Rasheed probably had more to do with it). I think most would agree that Carlisle is a great coach (IMO) despite getting fired by Detroit after having one of the best records in the east for a few years. Stan Van Gundy had Miami playing well, plug in Riley and boom, they win a ring. Stan is a good coach. Avery Johnson took them to the finals, get Carlisle, a ring. See a trend?

Bruno
03-14-2015, 09:23 PM
Thibs does not run his players into the ground. This minutes thing has become a monster, I tell ya. First, one sports journalist writes about it because he doesn't have the connections to the Bulls' and their players the way he wishes he did. Then, the snowball effect happens, and everybody in Chicago from beat writers to fans to national fans to national beat writers hops on the train ride because it's the cool thing to do.

The notion that Thibs runs one of his players into the ground is wrong, the notion that he runs multiple playerS into the ground is lazy. Claiming that Thibs doesn't develop his bench is sadly mistaken, and I emphasize the word sadly because Thibs has seemingly become some sort of villain in the eyes of a lot of fans.

Distastefulness, laziness, mob-mentality, etc have all lead to this. Hopefully a vast number of users will read this lengthy post and come away with something outside of "well, a bleacherreport article said it so it must be true!" I hope everyone interprets the data for themselves, and I'm confident that a majority of thinkers out there will agree with my post at its conclusion. Let's dive in:
The problem with this post is that you're not responding directly. you're preaching like you're trying to ruin my political career at a town hall meeting. put across the information without making it about media politics and mob mentality and it would be received with less resistance. not that i resisted.



The league leaders in total minutes and minutes per game of the last 15 years are as follows, followed by the 20th highest total minutes getter and minutes per game getter respectively:

2015: James Harden (2,350 minutes) and Jimmy Butler (38.9 per game); Rudy Gay (2,128) and Pau Gasol (34.8)
Do minutes per game paint the entire picture? It's a part of the puzzle. This applies to all the mpg information you've provided. Jimmy defends the best offensive player and now carries the offense with Rose out. Yes his 38.9 mpg lead the league, but more importantly is how hard and heavy his minutes are, considering his role, and the holes he's filling. you are leaving out the context of the minutes. 2015 has two Bulls in the top five in mpg, and Pau is almost 35 years old. 35 year old shouldn't average those kind of minutes per game, especially on a team like Chicago with an excellent three man big rotation, with the information we have today in sports medicine. those are too many minutes Shammy. not that he'll necessarily get injured, but the season is a marathon. if his legs are spent and he's gassed by the post-season what's the point? under Thibs the worst case scenario is what we've seen, and the best case is that they're healthy but burnt out by the playoffs. year after year. bulls fans should want this to change more than anyone.



2014: Kevin Durant (3,122) and Carmelo Anthony (38.7); Wesley Matthews (2,780) and Blake Griffin (35.8)

Presenting this information from 2014, you're not doing your point any favors. You're making my point for me. Is it a coincidence that the four leaders in mpg last season are also four key players who are either out for the rest of 2015, or have had nagging injuries throughout? It isn't. Especially with Durant and Matthews, two way players who often spend a lot of energy defending on the wing against elite offense.



2013: Damian Lillard (3,167) and Luol Deng (38.7); Nicolas Batum (2,807) and Chandler Parsons (36.3)This one is interesting too. Lillard is notorious for his numbers dropping off in the season half of the season and Batum appears to be breaking down. Portland has played their starters way too much for two years and everybody knows it. Stotts gets less flack than Thibs because Portlands bench is poor. Chicago has a lot more to work with. Stotts is worse than Thibs, he just hasn't had as bad of injuries to as important as players.


2012: Kevin Durant (2,546) and Luol Deng (39.4); Tyreke Evans (2,162) and Joe Johnson (35.5)
Heavy minutes for Durant year after year and it results in last summers Jones fracture. Luol Deng lead the NBA for two years in a row under Thibs and his body has deteriorated.


2011: Monta Ellis (3,227) and Monta Ellis (40.3); Dwyane Wade (2,823) and Amare Stoudemire (36.8)
Wade and Amare. final seasons before both of them never looked the same again.


2010: Kevin Durant (3,239) and Monta Ellis (41.4); Jason Kidd (2,881) and Jeff Green (37.1)
2009: Andre Iguodala (3,269) and Andre Iguodala (39.9); Vince Carter (2,946) and Tayshaun Prince (37.3)
2008: Allen Iverson (3,424) and Allen Iverson (41.8); Ricky Davis (2,963) and Brandon Roy (37.7)
2007: Lebron James (3,190) and Allen Iverson (42.5); Charlie Bell (2,848) and Shawn Marion (37.6)
2006: Gilbert Arenas (3,384) and Allen Iverson (43.1); Dwight Howard (3,021) and Rafer Alston (38.6)

2005: Lebron James (3,388) and Lebron James (42.4); Chucky Atkins (2,903) and Steve Francis (38.2)
2004: Joe Johnson (3,331) and Allen Iverson (42.5); Carmelo Anthony (2,995) and Zach Randolph (37.9)
2003: Allen Iverson (3,485) and Allen Iverson (42.5); Rashard Lewis (3,044) and Paul Pierce (39.2)
2002: Antoine Walker (3,406) and Allen Iverson (43.7); Antawn Jamison (3,033) and Anthony Mason (38.3)
2001: Michael Finley (3,443) and Michael Finley (42.0); Jason Kidd (3,065) and Reggie Miller (39.3)

No context for these minutes, but I see a lot of Iverson. a guy who fell off a cliff by the time he was 33. could barley hold onto a job in the NBA after leading the NBA in minutes as a 32 year old in 2007-2008.



There it is, the last 15 years including this season. Bruno argues that the league is changing in terms of minutes and minute load, and I think this breakdown agrees with Bruno's argument. Where his argument falls short though, is that he's excluding Thibodeau from being part of that evolution.
Every year players are stronger, faster and have more ideal training and health. mpg have gone down but the court has gotten smaller, figuratively speaking. guys are more explosive than ever and ligaments are paying the price. higher mpg were also easier to bear before the explosion of nba forums and social media. guys could take defense off all season and nobody would burn them on the internet. think James Harden would have cleaned it up if his reputation wasn't taking a massive beating online? so much more to consider here than just mpg. things change and minutes are heavier when you're expected to play two way basketball.


Thibs isn't doing something that others aren't doing, whether it's today or in the past. It's okay for other teams to "drive their players into the ground" but it's not okay for the Chicago coach, I get it. Now below is the number of teams per year that had multiple players in that top-20 minutes and/or minutes per game mark (since Thibs became the Bulls' HC):

It's not okay for any coach to play guys into the ground. Ive been preaching in the Lakers forum and in the NBA forum for years. every Laker coach since Phil has run Kobe into the ground, including Byron this year. way too many minutes for Kobe. Dantoni was playing him 43 mpg during the two weeks leading up to the achillies tear. I call out any coach who does this, Thibs is just going to draw the most attention because he's at odds with his front office and his players have had poor fortune with injuries. plus its chicago, it's a legendary team that will always be under the microscope. what seems to bother you the most should be so expected. the thread is about timbs, you shouldn't expect or want anyone to go off topic and make it about another coach, even if the information on said coach is valid.


Year 2015
1) Houston (the 1st and 2nd total minutes getters and the 3rd and 9th minute per game getters)
2) Cleveland (the 4th and 12th minutes getters and the 2nd and 4th per game getters)
3) Clippers (the 5th and 7th minutes getters and the 12th and 17th per game getters)
4) Portland (the 6th minutes getter and the 5th and 6th per game getters)
5) Chicago (the 14th and 19th minutes getters and the 1st and 20th per game getters)

Does anyone find it odd that all of those teams have championship aspirations? I'd like to highlight Cleveland here, because of Lebron hadn't taken off a few weeks they'd be the only team in the league to not just have 3 guys in the top-20 total minutes getters, or the top-20 per game getters, yet they'd be the only team to do so in both categories. But no, Thibs is a ruthless, old-school grinder that can't keep up with the times. Along with these other 4 teams I guess.
of course, that's to be fully expected. Blatt is on the hot seat, he's a pre LeBron hire and could easily be replaced. we should never expect coaches whose jobs are on the line to limit minutes. they need to look as good as possible. same thing was happening with Dantoni when he was trying to get us into the 8th spot. frankly it takes a lot of time to build the clout that Pop now has today. and even when he started sitting guys, he got flack, lets not forget that. coaching turn over is so high, it pressures coaches to win and win now. i blame a lot of this on the volatility of the coaching profession in the NBA.


Year 2014
1) Toronto (the 3rd and 13th minutes getters and the 4th and 13th per game getters)
2) Portland (the 6th, 7th, and 20th minutes getters and the 15th, 16th, and 18th per game getters)
3) Clippers (the 10th and 12th minutes getters and the 20th per game getter)
4) Golden State (the 11th and 14th minutes getters and the 9th per game getter)

no Chicago, hmmm... but Thibs was supposed to be this barbaric, minute-dictator. Also, Portland's HC Terry Stotts has done something nobody else has done: have three guys in the top-20 total minutes AND per game on his team. Grab your pitchforks everyone, let's get this sucker! (just wait, he almost does it again in back to back seasons!)

The way that you're presenting the numbers is too simplistic to paint an accurate picture. a top five in any given year doesn't lend any context; a guy could have the exact same minutes per game two years in a row, and rank differently in his season rank from one year to another. His ranking might change, but the reality of the toll on his body has not. in 2014 Noah played 35.3 mpg, Deng plays 37.4 in 27 games, and Butler plays 38.7 mpg. but you present the information as if those guys aren't playing big minutes by stating that you found other teams that played more. Portland is now paying for their failure to give out proper minutes. without Matthews, they have zero chance of cracking the WCF. the chickens always come home to roost man, eventually.


Year 2013
1) Portland (the 1st and 20th minutes getters and the 3rd, 5th, and 9th per game getters)
2) Oklahoma City (the 2nd and 17th minutes getters and the 4th per game getter)
3) Milwaukee (the 3rd and 14th minutes getters and the 12th per game getter)
4) Houston (the 6th minutes getter and the 6th and 20th per game getters)
5) Golden State (the 7th, 9th, and 12th minutes getters and the 7th and 15h per game getters)
6) Philadelphia (the 10th and 15h minutes getters and the 11th per game getter)
7) Chicago (the 13th minute getter and the 1st and 16h per game getters)
8) Brooklyn (the 19th minutes getter and the 18th and 19th per game getters)

Year 2012
1) Oklahoma City (the 1st and 7th minutes getters and the 3rd per game getter)
2) Lakers (the 2nd minutes getter and the 4th and 7th per game getters)
3) Memphis (the 3rd, 6th, and 18th minutes getters and the 8th and 12th per game getters)
4) Clippers (the 4th and 17th minutes getters and the 13th and 16th per game getters)
5) Atlanta (the 9th and 16th minutes getters and the 20th per game getter)
6) Philly (the 13th and 15th minutes getters and the 19th per game getter)

This year, the Bulls had nobody in the top-20 for total minutes played, and only one in the top-20 minutes per game (Deng lead the league that year, but missed 12 games). You can interpret all of these numbers and the comparisons I'm making between the Bulls' players and their minutes to every other team's players and minutes and come up with your own conclusions, but thus far I must say I'm starting to think Thibs isn't doing anything maniacal. If he is, then so is seemingly half the league. Funny enough, Thibs did this in perhaps the most strenuous season yet due to the lockout, and even funnier perhaps is that the 2012 Bulls' was the best roster he ever had. Strange, a carpenter using all of his tools when he has good tools to use.

Year 2011
1) Warriors (the 1st and 4th minutes getters and the 1st and 7th per game getters)
2) Chicago (the 3rd and 9th minutes getters and the 4th and 14th per game getters)
3) Clippers (the 5th minutes getter and the 8th and 12th minutes getters)
4) Miami (the 6th and 20th minutes getters and the 6th and 16th minutes getters)
5) Oklahoma City (the 7th and 19th minutes getters and the 5th per game getter)

I'm not going to go through these individually because the idea of presenting a top 5 and presenting it as rule of law without context is too narrow to build an argument around. especially for 2012 when you leave out the Bulls and claim no bull is in the conversation for too many minutes. Deng went out that year as the league leader in mpg before his injury, which you make reference to but you blow it off like its nothing.

it doesn't matter what the year to year top five ares, or what other teams are doing. you look at the trends coach to coach. the Chicago front office has every right to be at odds with Thibs about this. he's excellent, but he's not infallible.


I mean, c'mon. Who in their right mind would play Luol Deng 38.7mpg (the lowest minutes per game leader in the last 25 years IIRC from a post I made a year ago), Jimmy Butler 38.9mpg (the 3rd lowest mark in the last 25 odd years, IIRC again)?

end the sarcasm. What has Thibs done, outside of leading a contending team by playing his best players more than his lesser players? Every team in the history of the league has done that. SOMEONE has to lead the league in minutes, but if it's one of Thibs players donning black/red then boyyyyy is it a party foul if I've ever seen one.

My closing argument:
James Harden from age 23-25 has averaged 37.7 minutes a game.
Kevin Durant from age 23-25 averaged 38.5 minutes a game.
Dwyane Wade from age 23-25 averaged 38.3 minutes a game.
Jimmy Butler from age 24-25 under Thibs has averaged 38.8 minutes a game.

Lebron James from age 25-27 averaged 38.5 minutes a game.
Andre Iguodala from age 25-27 averaged 38.7 minutes a game
Tim Duncan from age 25-27 averaged 39.0 minutes a game.
Kobe Bryant from age 25-27 averaged 39.9 minutes a game.
Allen Iverson, from age 21-32 averaged 41.8 minutes a game.
Luol Deng from age 25-27 under Thibs averaged 39.1 minutes a game.

Nope, I think people who dislike Thibs' minutes are nuts. I think he's the only coach of a contender that people chastise for playing his best players minutes. He's the only coach who can't play a player in their prime 38 minutes a game, because he's doing it by force or something. Yeah, sounds about right.

so you go and take a generation of iron men and use them as the case study here? thats best case scenario shammy.

if i'm not mistaken your entire point is that Thibs shouldn't get any flack because other coaches do it too. thats like saying I shouldnt get in trouble for not listening to grandma because by brother didn't listen either. the point should be that all coaches should see the negative long term consequences of heavy minute distribution, and should be criticized for excessive play. thibs is just the best, most known coach who does this. he also coaches in a huge market and has had some poor luck on his side, the reaction should be no surprise. especially when he's giving push back to his own front office over the role sports medicine personnel who have been hired by the organization. i heard bill and zach discuss that on a podcast.

DaBear
03-14-2015, 10:02 PM
It's funny how the Bulls are the best team in the NBA and favorite to win the title and have the greatest chemistry and strongest defense and best fan base in the fall, and then come summertime they:

-Just needed more experience for Rose to become a better closer, this was his first deep playoff run, and to add a SG
-Just need their MVP to recover from his surgery and to add a SG
-Just need Rose back
-Just need Rose back and to amnesty Boozer to get a second star
-Just need Rose back and for Thibs to stop running his players into the ground

How will the story continue next season? Stay tuned...

I think they need to clear the front office starting with Reinsdorf, Paxson and Forman before even considering dropping such a good coach. I guess they should give Vinny a call back, he'll come cheap, just as the owner likes it.

This is why no one respects Heat bandwagon fans.

Shammyguy3
03-14-2015, 11:08 PM
The problem with this post is that you're not responding directly. you're preaching like you're trying to ruin my political career at a town hall meeting. put across the information without making it about media politics and mob mentality and it would be received with less resistance. not that i resisted.

The response wasn't just for you, but for everyone to take a look at. And I don't think anyone's resisting anything, but there sure as hell is a mob-mentality. Do you live in Chicago? If you don't, then you wouldn't know.


Do minutes per game paint the entire picture? It's a part of the puzzle. This applies to all the mpg information you've provided. Jimmy defends the best offensive player and now carries the offense with Rose out. Yes his 38.9 mpg lead the league, but more importantly is how hard and heavy his minutes are, considering his role, and the holes he's filling. you are leaving out the context of the minutes. 2015 has two Bulls in the top five in mpg, and Pau is almost 35 years old. 35 year old shouldn't average those kind of minutes per game, especially on a team like Chicago with an excellent three man big rotation, with the information we have today in sports medicine. those are too many minutes Shammy. not that he'll necessarily get injured, but the season is a marathon. if his legs are spent and he's gassed by the post-season what's the point? under Thibs the worst case scenario is what we've seen, and the best case is that they're healthy but burnt out by the playoffs. year after year. bulls fans should want this to change more than anyone.


So, is Jimmy defending the best player and carrying the offense a bad thing? Is he the first really good player on a team to do that (besides, Pau carries a greater offensive load anyway) not just over the last 15 years but throughout history? I guess all of those players were overworked too, and fell apart come playoff time. I'm not really leaving out the context of the minutes, because what Butler is doing and what Thibs on the whole has done with his team is nothing out of the ordinary. Pau Gasol is 35 years old, but who are you to say that he shouldn't be averaging those minutes? He's certainly having a really good bounce back season.

As far as the Bulls' big man rotation, yeah it's not ideal that Pau plays 35mpg. But Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson have missed a combined 30 games already at this point. Who else do you want Thibs to play, Nazr Mohammed or Cameron Bairstow? More importantly is that these guys need to LEARN how to play together. In the 35 games that none of the 3 have been out, Pau's averaging 34.2mpg ... There have been a good number of players at Pau's same age that have played more minutes a game, and have not fallen over themselves come playoff time. Pau's minutes aren't a problem in my eyes, and I'm watching him every night. Do you know that Pau has gone on record with Bulls media saying how great he feels, and that he loves playing the minutes he has been playing? Unless you point me to literature that says a 35 year old basketball player shouldn't play 34.8mpg due to inevitable and consequential downfall come playoff time, I'll just wait and see how Pau does in the playoffs.



As far as the bolded, that's flat out incorrect. Here's the list from bball-reference, disproving the bolded:

Minutes Per Game
1. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 38.9
2. Kyrie Irving ▪ CLE 37.2
3. James Harden ▪ HOU 36.7
4. LeBron James ▪ CLE 36.3
5. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 36.1
6. LaMarcus Aldridge ▪ POR 36.0
7. Ty Lawson ▪ DEN 35.7
8. Anthony Davis ▪ NOP 35.6
9. Trevor Ariza ▪ HOU 35.6
10. John Wall ▪ WAS 35.5
11. Rudy Gay ▪ SAC 35.5
12. Blake Griffin ▪ LAC 35.3
13. Joe Johnson ▪ BRK 35.1
14. Andrew Wiggins ▪ MIN 35.0
15. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 34.9
16. Victor Oladipo ▪ ORL 34.9
17. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 34.9
18. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 34.9
19. Tobias Harris ▪ ORL 34.8
20. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 34.8


Presenting this information from 2014, you're not doing your point any favors. You're making my point for me. Is it a coincidence that the four leaders in mpg last season are also four key players who are either out for the rest of 2015, or have had nagging injuries throughout? It isn't. Especially with Durant and Matthews, two way players who often spend a lot of energy defending on the wing against elite offense.

So, what magical number should players play to avoid injury at all costs? I mean, do you think Kevin Durant playing 100 minutes less during the regular season would have meant he doesn't miss time this year? Do you think Wesley Matthews wouldn't have torn his achilles (I think?) if he played half a minute less a game? If so, then Gordon Hayward is gonna be dead in the water this week I bet.

If it's okay for one player to play 2,842 minutes then why is it bad if another guy does it? Is there a number of minutes that every player should play so they don't get hurt? And yes, it is a coincidence that the four leaders have had nagging injuries. Don't you think that if your reasoning held true, that we'd be having more and more injuries throught the course of the league's history? Like Michael Finley, Allen Iverson, Lebron James, Michael Jordan, etc. Shouldn't they all have had x, y, and z occur to them because they lead the league in minutes?

I'm not buying it. Players will get hurt, some get hurt playing 15 minutes a night. Others get hurt playing 30. Some players never get seriously injured playing 38+ minutes a night in their primes.


This one is interesting too. Lillard is notorious for his numbers dropping off in the season half of the season and Batum appears to be breaking down. Portland has played their starters way too much for two years and everybody knows it. Stotts gets less flack than Thibs because Portlands bench is poor. Chicago has a lot more to work with. Stotts is worse than Thibs, he just hasn't had as bad of injuries to as important as players.

Chicago's bench has been meh. Kirk Hinrich has the worst PER of any player in the league getting 20 minutes or more a game. Brooks is good offensively but he can't do anything defensively. Doug McDermott has been hurt or lost all year sans a couple of games this month. Tony Snell was seriously lost, perhaps even spiritually. He only started playing well about 6 weeks ago (and since he started playing well, Jimmy Butler has dropped two full minutes to only 36.9mpg). Taj Gibson has been in and out, and he's severely fallen off of what he was only one year ago. He's become Amare Stoudemire out there defensively at points, and become a total blackhole offensively to boot. Mirotic has been a rollercoaster. That's it, our fabulous bench.



Heavy minutes for Durant year after year and it results in last summers Jones fracture. Luol Deng lead the NBA for two years in a row under Thibs and his body has deteriorated.

Yet heavy minutes for Lebron James didn't do anything, and he's played a lot longer. Heavy minutes for Michael Jordan didn't do anything. Heavy minutes for Allen Iverson, Monta Ellis, etc haven't done anything. How can you explain this? That some players have problems with heavy minutes, and others don't? Don't you think that that's just the case? Some players can't handle them. Some could without ill-effects. ***(Iverson fell off at an appropriate age, not in the middle of his prime)

Now, if you had the opportunity of playing your best player 38mpg without any wear or tear, would you play him only 35? Especially if it cost you the 1st seed, or the 3rd seed, or?



Wade and Amare. final seasons before both of them never looked the same again.

Also guys who have had serious injuries in the past. Outside of Derrick Rose, Thibs has never had a player with significant injuries in the past. And guess how many minutes Rose has averaged this year? Only 31. Thibs knows that certain players can't play X amount of minutes, and he forms his rotations accordingly. Butler and Deng are robots. It's unfortunate that Deng has supposedly fallen off of a cliff, but I dare say that it may have happened just the same if he didn't lead the league in minutes. Deng's right at the age where most athletes start seeing a good decline, age 30. Especially if they've played 10+ years.


No context for these minutes, but I see a lot of Iverson. a guy who fell off a cliff by the time he was 33. could barley hold onto a job in the NBA after leading the NBA in minutes as a 32 year old in 2007-2008.

No context is needed, because it shows that Thibs isn't doing anything differently than his predecessors and isn't doing anything wrong because there's no direct correlation with his Bulls' players injuries and their minutes. Do you think it was fair of Greg Popovich to play Tim Duncan an average of 39.3 minutes a game over 6 seasons? Thibs has never done anything like that. Tim Duncan at Butler's age played more minutes, same with Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, etc etc etc.


Every year players are stronger, faster and have more ideal training and health. mpg have gone down but the court has gotten smaller, figuratively speaking. guys are more explosive than ever and ligaments are paying the price. higher mpg were also easier to bear before the explosion of nba forums and social media. guys could take defense off all season and nobody would burn them on the internet. think James Harden would have cleaned it up if his reputation wasn't taking a massive beating online? so much more to consider here than just mpg. things change and minutes are heavier when you're expected to play two way basketball.


So what does that have to do with Jimmy Butler, Luol Deng, Pau Gasol, etc? They don't rely on athleticism. They aren't putting any of this extra strain on their body that other players of this generation are doing. You credit the athleticism, yet you don't mention the privileges of trainers and rehab that these player have. It's a 2 way street, advancements in medicine make it easier for players to recover and play today than X, Y, and Z years ago.

Do you really think ProSportsDaily hating James Hardens' defense has anything to do with well, anything? Every player has always been expected to play 2-way basketball. Some are good, some bad. Some improve. Some realize they they HAVE to improve to win. It has nothing to do with nba forums or twitter.


It's not okay for any coach to play guys into the ground. Ive been preaching in the Lakers forum and in the NBA forum for years. every Laker coach since Phil has run Kobe into the ground, including Byron this year. way too many minutes for Kobe. Dantoni was playing him 43 mpg during the two weeks leading up to the achillies tear. I call out any coach who does this, Thibs is just going to draw the most attention because he's at odds with his front office and his players have had poor fortune with injuries. plus its chicago, it's a legendary team that will always be under the microscope. what seems to bother you the most should be so expected. the thread is about timbs, you shouldn't expect or want anyone to go off topic and make it about another coach, even if the information on said coach is valid.

There goes that saying again, playing guys into the ground. Something that Thibs doesn't do, thankfully.



of course, that's to be fully expected. Blatt is on the hot seat, he's a pre LeBron hire and could easily be replaced. we should never expect coaches whose jobs are on the line to limit minutes. they need to look as good as possible. same thing was happening with Dantoni when he was trying to get us into the 8th spot. frankly it takes a lot of time to build the clout that Pop now has today. and even when he started sitting guys, he got flack, lets not forget that. coaching turn over is so high, it pressures coaches to win and win now. i blame a lot of this on the volatility of the coaching profession in the NBA.

Excuses is all I hear. Blatt and Stotts aren't the only other coaches that have played players heavy minutes. Thibs isn't the only coach that has had injury prone guys on his team. Thibs isn't the only coach who has ever had a player in their prime play minutes, then come age 30 they start their natural decline (like Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, etc). And if you can easily discern how good a coach is doing, and that he's only playing guys those minutes to keep his job, don't you think that the FO of teams can tell the difference, too?


The way that you're presenting the numbers is too simplistic to paint an accurate picture. a top five in any given year doesn't lend any context; a guy could have the exact same minutes per game two years in a row, and rank differently in his season rank from one year to another. His ranking might change, but the reality of the toll on his body has not. in 2014 Noah played 35.3 mpg, Deng plays 37.4 in 27 games, and Butler plays 38.7 mpg. but you present the information as if those guys aren't playing big minutes by stating that you found other teams that played more. Portland is now paying for their failure to give out proper minutes. without Matthews, they have zero chance of cracking the WCF. the chickens always come home to roost man, eventually.

That's why I gave the 1st and 20th leaders in minutes and minutes per game. So you can see the difference between the two. It's not me presenting the numbers that's too simplistic, it's you making things more complicated than they really are. But again, if only God would have let Wesley Matthews play 100 minutes less the previous year, he'd be healthy, no?



I'm not going to go through these individually because the idea of presenting a top 5 and presenting it as rule of law without context is too narrow to build an argument around. especially for 2012 when you leave out the Bulls and claim no bull is in the conversation for too many minutes. Deng went out that year as the league leader in mpg before his injury, which you make reference to but you blow it off like its nothing.

So, when I show that Thibs isn't grinding players into the ground, and show that even if he is that other contending teams are doing it, year in and year out, it's TOO narrow to build an argument around? Ohhh. And if Deng DID lead the league in minutes per game, he showed time and time again that he was capable of playing those minutes.

If anyone is blowing things off like it's nothing here, I think it's you Bruno.


it doesn't matter what the year to year top five ares, or what other teams are doing. you look at the trends coach to coach. the Chicago front office has every right to be at odds with Thibs about this. he's excellent, but he's not infallible.

Agreed. I wish Thibs played Doug and Niko more. But Thibs doesn't grind his players into the ground. That's the point I'm making.


so you go and take a generation of iron men and use them as the case study here? thats best case scenario shammy.

Butler has shown to be exactly one of those generational iron men. It's not best case scenario, it's actually already happened. Same with Luol Deng.


if i'm not mistaken your entire point is that Thibs shouldn't get any flack because other coaches do it too. thats like saying I shouldnt get in trouble for not listening to grandma because by brother didn't listen either. the point should be that all coaches should see the negative long term consequences of heavy minute distribution, and should be criticized for excessive play. thibs is just the best, most known coach who does this. he also coaches in a huge market and has had some poor luck on his side, the reaction should be no surprise. especially when he's giving push back to his own front office over the role sports medicine personnel who have been hired by the organization. i heard bill and zach discuss that on a podcast.

My point is, whether Thibs is in it alone or not, it's not wrong to play your best players high minutes. Thibs isn't grinding his players into the ground. He doesn't have a whip out, threatening guys if they don't play both ways for 36 minutes a night. He knows that certain players can handle the minutes load. That's why he never played Derrick the minutes he's playing Butler or that he played Deng.


Have you, or anyone for that matter, shown how the Bulls are burnt out come playoff time due to the minutes they played in the regular season? I'm still waiting to see that

Doogolas
03-15-2015, 02:26 AM
Wait, you said that Phil didn't run Kobe into the ground? Kobe averaged 39.4MPG from 00-10, and like... multiple seasons over 40MPG. Kobe didn't average at least 38+ only twice with PJ as his head coach.

I guess Phil Jackson just ran everyone into the ground, huh? In fact, ol' PJ played Pau 36.6MPG when he had him as a Laker, yikes!

Oh, my, he played Shaq over 38 minutes per game. Wowzers.

Ol' PJ sure did suck and run all his players into the ground!

ChitownSports16
03-15-2015, 07:55 AM
he's a brilliant coach. but he runs his players into the ground. his rotations and minute distribution are strategically devolved. the best coaches understand that it's a marathon not a sprint. the best coaches also tend to develop ten deep, something the bulls are fully capable of doing. but he doesn't, Butler lead the NBA in mpg before going down. his rotations are too short, his plays his big guns way too often and they break down. especially under his demanding system. his front office traded two firsts for McDermott, he hasn't developed him at all, meanwhile the guy who plays his position in the starting line up breaks down because he's been carrying too big a load. they couldn't have knocked Jimmys minutes down 2-3 per game and let Mirotic, Snell or McDermott get more experience so they aren't totally useless come playoffs? At least Snell has been getting more run and Mirotic gets opportunities when one of the three bigs are out.

if i'm the bulls id rather lose a great defensive coach then be glued to a guy who will run his stars into the ground before the finals. the league has changed, thibs is still operating under old norms where men were men and played all 82 games without breaking down.

i'm also open to bulls fans who watch more bulls than I do telling me why I'm mistaken.

Bingo!!! As a bulls fan I wouldn't be sad to see him go. I've actually got more annoyed with Thibs this season then the past but that's just me.

Doogolas
03-15-2015, 09:17 AM
Bingo!!! As a bulls fan I wouldn't be sad to see him go. I've actually got more annoyed with Thibs this season then the past but that's just me.

And when he's gone next year and we are significantly worse, you'll be wondering why you were so stupid.

Further, he's excellent at player development, which seems to get completely ignored.

Bruno
03-15-2015, 06:40 PM
The response wasn't just for you, but for everyone to take a look at.
Everyone sees it but you quoted me.


And I don't think anyone's resisting anything, but there sure as hell is a mob-mentality. Do you live in Chicago? If you don't, then you wouldn't know.
You'll never know who was resisting. when you come at it at such a strong angle like you did it doesn't leave much room for the middle truth. youve expressed how common his minute distribution is both today and in the past. the idea that he runs guys into the ground is maybe unfair, or at worse a problem thats not specific to Chicago relative to the rest of the league, but at the same time do you put zero stock into what Pop has been able to accomplish in SA? the fact that a long toothed dynasty was built on the principals of playing ten deep, and limiting minutes for guys over 30 (and this case, even for Leonard) has been proven to work. Duncan hasn't played more than 31.5 mpg since 2009. a part of the brilliance is that its not just about this year. it's about the decade.

your point wasn't that it was a problem specific the city of chicago, it was that everyone read a bleacher report article and have been spinning their wheels ever since.


So, is Jimmy defending the best player and carrying the offense a bad thing?
Not necessarily good or bad. it's just a contextual reality that needs to be considered when having a discussion about his minutes. he doesn't take plays off, he's a coaches dream.


Is he the first really good player on a team to do that
obviously not.


(besides, Pau carries a greater offensive load anyway)
he does have a higher USG%. but i'm sure you'd agree with me that Butler has a heavier work load because of what he contributes on the defensive end.


not just over the last 15 years but throughout history?
we would find plenty examples, however when a guy is the best offensive and best defensive player on his team he's probably also an all-star caliber player who plays big minutes. so obviously guys who fit that description get major minutes.


I guess all of those players were overworked too, and fell apart come playoff time.
I'm sure that there were also countless examples of that over time. teams losing their legs at the wrong moment. it happened to the Lakers in 2011. Everyone remembers the Dallas sweep but nobody remembers the #1 ranked defense and 17-1 record after the all-star break. teams can peak too soon, teams do break down in late April and may. i'm sure there are also examples of teams who were more conditioned and more disciplined than an equally talented team, who won because their legs didn't give out first, and because they were in better shape; 2003 LAL vs SAS.


I'm not really leaving out the context of the minutes, because what Butler is doing and what Thibs on the whole has done with his team is nothing out of the ordinary.
You are leaving out the context. we can find plenty of examples of big minutes but ultimately guys who are their teams best defensive player and best offensive player (or at least do the most work on that end of the floor guarding wings in a wing dominant era) are rare. rather than saying it's nothing out of the ordinary, lets have a discussion on who else in the league carries the same responsibilities that Jimmy Butler has in 2014-2015. there would be a list, but it would be short.


Pau Gasol is 35 years old, but who are you to say that he shouldn't be averaging those minutes? He's certainly having a really good bounce back season.
When Tim Duncan was 35 years old, Pop was smart enough to play him 28 minutes per game. not only did it push responsibility down the ranks, but it allowed Tim to age gracefully, and to be in a position to dominate at age 37 and 38. we will see how Pau looks after a tough series, where is legs are at. lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say his numbers don't drop. but that ultimate long term point remains the same. it's about next year and the year after that as well. you guys did sign him for three years you should protect your investment.


As far as the Bulls' big man rotation, yeah it's not ideal that Pau plays 35mpg. But Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson have missed a combined 30 games already at this point.
and for that reason i cut Thibs slack for not having the minutes between those three be more even. Can't Mirotic play stretch four?


Who else do you want Thibs to play, Nazr Mohammed or Cameron Bairstow? More importantly is that these guys need to LEARN how to play together. In the 35 games that none of the 3 have been out, Pau's averaging 34.2mpgProbably Mirotic, Snell (which he has been) McDermott. I think Chicago has some really nice young pieces that will give the a legitimate opportunity to play ten deep next year, and the concern is that he's not developing them enough this year for them to be of use next year as sophmores; I also know McDermott has been injured, so further slack is cut. I'd like to think that two of Pau/Noah/Gibson are healthy on most nights and that we don't need to have a discussion about Nazr Mohammed or Cameron Bairstow because of Mirotic.



... There have been a good number of players at Pau's same age that have played more minutes a game, and have not fallen over themselves come playoff time.
I'd be interested in seeing a list of players from the past five years, age 35 and above who played 35+ mpg in the regular season and didn't see a statistical drop off in the post season.


Pau's minutes aren't a problem in my eyes, and I'm watching him every night.
yeah, you're in the moment. the moment of this season. he's a three year investment, well have this conversation again when he's 37 in April 2017. well see how his production is compared to say Duncan, from age 35-37. under the Pop system. under a different approach.


Do you know that Pau has gone on record with Bulls media saying how great he feels, and that he loves playing the minutes he has been playing?
Of course, great players always want to play. especially after the two years Pau went through. it's the job of coaches and managment to protect the players from themselves and their competitive fire.


Unless you point me to literature that says a 35 year old basketball player shouldn't play 34.8mpg due to inevitable and consequential downfall come playoff time, I'll just wait and see how Pau does in the playoffs.
The problem with standing pat and having stubborn perspective on this (both you and Thibs) is that you've run out of options if and when a guy goes down, or sees a drop in production. all you'll be able to do is look back on a lost season. where as being more flexible in your view point here and today allows for adjustments before an injury. In regards to your question on the literature, the spurs, the spurs, and the spurs. if you think Duncan would have dominated the Heat like he did last year had he been averaging 35mpg for the previous 4-5 years, I think you're being naive. he was properly paced, and thats why he was able to succeed with all the marbles on the table. OKC being out two years in a row helped a lot as well.


As far as the bolded, that's flat out incorrect. Here's the list from bball-reference, disproving the bolded:

Minutes Per Game
1. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 38.9
2. Kyrie Irving ▪ CLE 37.2
3. James Harden ▪ HOU 36.7
4. LeBron James ▪ CLE 36.3
5. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 36.1
6. LaMarcus Aldridge ▪ POR 36.0
7. Ty Lawson ▪ DEN 35.7
8. Anthony Davis ▪ NOP 35.6
9. Trevor Ariza ▪ HOU 35.6
10. John Wall ▪ WAS 35.5
11. Rudy Gay ▪ SAC 35.5
12. Blake Griffin ▪ LAC 35.3
13. Joe Johnson ▪ BRK 35.1
14. Andrew Wiggins ▪ MIN 35.0
15. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 34.9
16. Victor Oladipo ▪ ORL 34.9
17. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 34.9
18. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 34.9
19. Tobias Harris ▪ ORL 34.8
20. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 34.8
I misread the part of your post that said that the second half of the names that you provided were for the back end of the top 20, which is why I refereed to him as top five. he is however by far the oldest player in the top 20. plus there's a 1mpg difference between #20 and #7 so were kind of splitting hairs.


So, what magical number should players play to avoid injury at all costs?
I dont think anyone knows, and that the wisest thing to do is to error on the side of caution. whats the consequence? wouldn't you rather be healthy than have HCA? Pop would. I think looking at Pops blue print and trying to emulate it is the wisest approach. Coach Bud in Atlanta has copied this as well, not a single Atlanta Hawk averages more than 33 mpg. at the very least this provides a great consistency.



I mean, do you think Kevin Durant playing 100 minutes less during the regular season would have meant he doesn't miss time this year?
100? so 1.2 less minutes per game? I dont know, but I think two less minutes per game over the course of his entire career would have helped a lot. in that context were talking about over a thousand minutes. keep in mind Durant trains hard in the off-season and has had olympic commitments which hasn't helped. those four months off are so important for the body.


Do you think Wesley Matthews wouldn't have torn his achilles (I think?) if he played half a minute less a game? I think a reduction of minutes would have been instrumental in keeping him on the floor. it would have helped batum, and it would have helped Lillard who always slumps in the second half of the season. Portland is worse than Chicago.


If so, then Gordon Hayward is gonna be dead in the water this week I bet.
as you said, anyone can get injured at any time.


If it's okay for one player to play 2,842 minutes then why is it bad if another guy does it?
just because one guy goes down and the other guy doesn't, it doesn't mean it's good for the guy who didn't go down, it just means he withstood it. you fly back and forth between extremes without considering the middle ground.

also, People have different DNA, different physical geometry and contort their bodies in different ways in different situations. context, diet, role, and off-season training play a big part.


Is there a number of minutes that every player should play so they don't get hurt?
we can't possibly know this, so to say anything would be speculation.


And yes, it is a coincidence that the four leaders have had nagging injuries.
There are no coincidences.


Don't you think that if your reasoning held true, that we'd be having more and more injuries throught the course of the league's history? The game has changed so much since the 40's, you can't just look at the league since its beginning and treat it like its one singular sample size in regards to what were talking about. you break it down era by era, and as many have noticed players just seem to be getting injured at a higher rate than in the past, regardless of what the minutes tell us. why?

Bruno
03-15-2015, 06:40 PM
Like Michael Finley, Allen Iverson, Lebron James, Michael Jordan, etc. Shouldn't they all have had x, y, and z occur to them because they lead the league in minutes?
no, that's a logical fallacy. just because some players have been able to withstand the load, it doesn't mean it was best for their longevity. just because you mention four players who've managed to not go down in their 20s, it doesn't refute the Pop approach to success. further,


I'm not buying it. Players will get hurt, some get hurt playing 15 minutes a night. Others get hurt playing 30. Some players never get seriously injured playing 38+ minutes a night in their primes.
they had good fortune. some guys don't. thats why you create a system, like Pop where the destiny of your season; it doesn't rely simply on good fortune, you create a structure where you have more control over your own destiny. Pop stoped relying on good fortune for good when Manu was out aganst Memphis in 2012 and the Spurs lost.


Chicago's bench has been meh. Kirk Hinrich has the worst PER of any player in the league getting 20 minutes or more a game. Brooks is good offensively but he can't do anything defensively.
I think Brooks is your guy. sucks for the defense but at least the other guys can help cover for him.


Doug McDermott has been hurt or lost all year sans a couple of games this month.
I'd love to see him get some run.


Tony Snell was seriously lost, perhaps even spiritually. He only started playing well about 6 weeks ago (and since he started playing well, haha right, but when he got the chance and coach ran with him he looks pretty damn good at times. imagine him mirotic and mcdermott in two years if developed properly? it'll be scary.


Jimmy Butler has dropped two full minutes to only 36.9mpg). Taj Gibson has been in and out, and he's severely fallen off of what he was only one year ago. He's become Amare Stoudemire out there defensively at points, and become a total blackhole offensively to boot. Mirotic has been a rollercoaster. That's it, our fabulous bench. Your bench has a lot of promise and upside and I dont know why you're so down on it. the real problem is Rose and Jimmy not being healthy as we approach playoffs. Taj might not be playing like last season but the Amare comparison has to be an exaggeration. but i get it.



Yet heavy minutes for Lebron James didn't do anything, and he's played a lot longer. Heavy minutes for Michael Jordan didn't do anything. Some guys have good fortune, have stronger constitutions, etc. Why did McGrady fall apart? we dont know the answers to these questions. thats why the wise error on the side of caution and try to control what they can. freak accidents are unavoidable, but injuries that happen when a players is tired (most injuries) can be contained.


Heavy minutes for Allen Iverson, Monta Ellis, etc haven't done anything.
Iverson fell apart at 33 because he played way too many minutes over his entire career, thats my whole point on the last post when I mentioned Iverson.


How can you explain this? That some players have problems with heavy minutes, and others don't? Don't you think that that's just the case? Some players can't handle them. Some could without ill-effects. ***(Iverson fell off at an appropriate age, not in the middle of his prime)You're exaggerating. I never said he fell off in the middle of his prime, just that he could have lasted for longer. Should I put together a list of guys who made all-star games for NBA teams after their 12th season in the NBA? that's when Iverson disappeared from the NBA.


Now, if you had the opportunity of playing your best player 38mpg without any wear or tear, would you play him only 35?
Considering the fact that that's impossible, I dont know why I'd even entertain answering it.


Especially if it cost you the 1st seed, or the 3rd seed, or?
Oh no we lost the 3rd seed! common, a healthy team is always more important then where you sit in the bracket.



Also guys who have had serious injuries in the past.
what about them.


Outside of Derrick Rose, Thibs has never had a player with significant injuries in the past.
Thibs minutes being a problem doesn't have to be highlighted with only significant injuries. it's the general wear and tear. it's the deng effect, the kirk effect.


And guess how many minutes Rose has averaged this year? Only 31. Id like to see Rose at 28 in regular season and 32 in the playoffs, if possible.


Thibs knows that certain players can't play X amount of minutes, and he forms his rotations accordingly.
he still overshoots it, we disagree.


Butler and Deng are robots. they're people.


It's unfortunate that Deng has supposedly fallen off of a cliff, but I dare say that it may have happened just the same if he didn't lead the league in minutes. Deng's right at the age where most athletes start seeing a good decline, age 30. Especially if they've played 10+ years. it would be great for my point to hammer on about Deng, but I agree with you and there are too many other factors to consider. it would be a pigeonhole of an argument for me to blame it all on playing under Thibs system. but its interesting.




No context is needed, context is always needed.


because it shows that Thibs isn't doing anything differently than his predecessors and isn't doing anything wrong because there's no direct correlation with his Bulls' players injuries and their minutes.
you're looking at it the wrong way. we have more information in every field than ever before. there comes a point where doing things exactly like your predecessors did is a failure. its a failure to adjust for new information and knowledge. its a stubborn mentality that isn't flexible.


Do you think it was fair of Greg Popovich to play Tim Duncan an average of 39.3 minutes a game over 6 seasons? With the information that he had on sports medicine at the time, perhaps. But when the new information come, Pop adjusted. the rest of the league hasn't caught up yet. they will.


Thibs has never done anything like that. Tim Duncan at Butler's age played more minutes, same with Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, etc etc etc.
you're not adjusting for the reality of information in the digital age. of course the older generation will play more than butler, this wasn't on the radar back then. we never would have had this conversation ten years ago. but injuries are off the charts, guys are more explosive, and theres more two way basketball being played by the league on the whole. again, all that context is important. plus, Kobe paid, Iverson paid, their bodies slowly broke down over five year periods. Any time you mention MJ, it's a distraction. He sat for two years, and the context of that changes how we can compare and contrast him in this discussion.



So what does that have to do with Jimmy Butler, Luol Deng, Pau Gasol, etc? They don't rely on athleticism. They aren't putting any of this extra strain on their body that other players of this generation are doing. You credit the athleticism, yet you don't mention the privileges of trainers and rehab that these player have. It's a 2 way street, advancements in medicine make it easier for players to recover and play today than X, Y, and Z years ago. I do consider that, i just also consider how the game has changed and players appear to be getting injured at a higher rate. if nobody was going down we'd be talking about the brilliance of NBA training staffs, not about how coaches have questionable rotations.


Do you really think ProSportsDaily hating James Hardens' defense has anything to do with well, anything? Every player has always been expected to play 2-way basketball. Some are good, some bad. Some improve. Some realize they they HAVE to improve to win. It has nothing to do with nba forums or twitter. More specifically twitter and instagram. and, yes absolutely. players hear everything and when a guys reputation takes a hit pride kicks in. go watch a regular season game for the 80s. just because the fouls were harder doesn't mean they played two way basketball. there is more pressure today.



There goes that saying again, playing guys into the ground. Something that Thibs doesn't do, thankfully. again, the middle ground.




Excuses is all I hear.
Not an excuse, just the reality of the situation. everything i said about Blatt and his situation is completely accurate.


Blatt and Stotts aren't the only other coaches that have played players heavy minutes. no but theyre some of the most blatant examples. you underestimate the power of the hot seat.


Thibs isn't the only coach that has had injury prone guys on his team.Poor guy, so sad for him to be given all these injury prone players all the time.


Thibs isn't the only coach who has ever had a player in their prime play minutes, then come age 30 they start their natural decline (like Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, etc). And if you can easily discern how good a coach is doing, and that he's only playing guys those minutes to keep his job, don't you think that the FO of teams can tell the difference, too? Natural declines should be controlled, slowed down. guys like Iverson and Deng aren't supposed to just drop off the face of the planet. Noahs decline this season isn't natural. it's more drastic than it should be, look at his PER, TS% and WS/48.



That's why I gave the 1st and 20th leaders in minutes and minutes per game.
I misread that part.


So you can see the difference between the two. It's not me presenting the numbers that's too simplistic, it's you making things more complicated than they really are.
it's more so that I think it's a waste of time to bother writing whos 20th. for 2014 theres only a minute difference between whos 7th and whos 20th (Pau). we waste our time looking at rankings instead of just the minutes, which was my point. but even then you seem to scoff at the idea of time minutes a game per season being irrelevant.


But again, if only God would have let Wesley Matthews play 100 minutes less the previous year, he'd be healthy, no? Not just 100 less minutes, probably 160. and for two or three years. that could have made a huge difference.





So, when I show that Thibs isn't grinding players into the ground,
you haven't done that. you just ignored context and made the discussion as simplistic as possible because it's easier to stand ground on a questionable opinion when you operate in absolutes.


and show that even if he is that other contending teams are doing it, year in and year out,
so what, theyre all guilty. Thibs is just under the microscope be hes great and has been given all these injury prone players, as you described it.


it's TOO narrow to build an argument around?
yes.


Ohhh. And if Deng DID lead the league in minutes per game, he showed time and time again that he was capable of playing those minutes. at the cost of now, yes (how convenient, after they trade him). at 30, hes paying the price. just because he didn't have a career ending injury, doesn't mean it was good for the longevity of his career, clearly it wasn't.


If anyone is blowing things off like it's nothing here, I think it's you Bruno. guys like myself who want to add context don't attempt to do that so they can blow things off. but thank you for referring to me in first person this time. iyou're laughing off two minutes a game for a few years in a row like its irrelevant, thats where youre mistaken. pop proved that it worked. Bud is following suit, and everyone else is slowly getting in line.


Agreed. I wish Thibs played Doug and Niko more. But Thibs doesn't grind his players into the ground. That's the point I'm making.
haha. well before you play a guy into the ground you have to, you know, play him. well see when McD starting getting minutes.



Butler has shown to be exactly one of those generational iron men. It's not best case scenario, it's actually already happened. Same with Luol Deng. But I thought Thibs has had the misfortune of always getting all these injury proned players as you stated? I'm just kidding, but thats kind of how you debate at times.

Deng is not an iron man. he never was. he missed 21 games his rookie season, he played 63 games in 2008, 49 in 2009, and 52 in 2012. he played in 68.2 games a year over a nine year period, and only started in 63 games a year over that nine year period. Those aren't the numbers of a decade long iron man, thats a guy dealing with nagging injuries constantly.

this is more so just Thibs, and the Bulls fans following in his wake, believing that his and their players aren't breakable, that they are robots, and that are iron men. over stating their durability when people starting asking about minutes, while cliaming that theyre injury prone when the discussion is critical of Thibs after the fact, while getting upset when both insiders (ownership and managment) and outsiders (fans of other teams) criticize that which has become blatantly obvious.




My point is, whether Thibs is in it alone or not, it's not wrong to play your best players high minutes. Thibs isn't grinding his players into the ground. He doesn't have a whip out, threatening guys if they don't play both ways for 36 minutes a night. He knows that certain players can handle the minutes load. That's why he never played Derrick the minutes he's playing Butler or that he played Deng.
I think it is wrong (not morally, just in terms of giving your team the highest chance of success) and predict that the league will not only replicate Pops space and pace, but also his rotations. Bud has incorporated both with the Hawks.



Have you, or anyone for that matter, shown how the Bulls are burnt out come playoff time due to the minutes they played in the regular season? I'm still waiting to see that
it is an accepted fact that everyone league wide is burnt out by the post-season (some more than others, which is really the specific point that weve been debating). thus numbers go down. what exactly would you conclude if you were presented with statistics that reflect that its rare to outproduce your regular season production against the cream of the league in games #83-#107?

Shammyguy3
03-15-2015, 11:27 PM
Everyone sees it but you quoted me.

Because you asked if any Bulls' fans that watch the team more disagree with you.



You'll never know who was resisting. when you come at it at such a strong angle like you did it doesn't leave much room for the middle truth. youve expressed how common his minute distribution is both today and in the past. the idea that he runs guys into the ground is maybe unfair, or at worse a problem thats not specific to Chicago relative to the rest of the league, but at the same time do you put zero stock into what Pop has been able to accomplish in SA? the fact that a long toothed dynasty was built on the principals of playing ten deep, and limiting minutes for guys over 30 (and this case, even for Leonard) has been proven to work. Duncan hasn't played more than 31.5 mpg since 2009. a part of the brilliance is that its not just about this year. it's about the decade.

It's definitely a strong angle, but it's one that's formed from watching 95% of the games since Thibs was hired. I don't put zero stock into Pop's philosophy that he's only recently adopted. When Duncan was a 21-27 year old, he rode Tim Duncan harder than anything Thibs did to Butler or to Deng. He changed that mindset later on for Timmy. But that doesn't mean that if he could go back in time, that he'd change his mind playing Duncn 39+mpg in his prime. I guarantee he'd do the exact same thing all over again, that's what made his early/mid 00s Spurs so good, playing their best two-way player heavy minutes because it was necessary.

So while you say the bolded, it's not really true to Pop. He hasn't managed his players minutes like this for a decade. It's only been the last few years, where Duncan/Manu were over 30 years old and his team got deeper. If the Bulls had the Spurs bench, I'm pretty confident that the only player playing 36mpg would be Jimmy Butler, who btw is 25 years old.

One last comment about the bolded: it's not about the decade. You can't win 10 years from now. You have to win today, this year. Especially when you're the Bulls and have Noah/Gibson who just turned 30, Pau who is 34/35, and Rose returning from injury.


your point wasn't that it was a problem specific the city of chicago, it was that everyone read a bleacher report article and have been spinning their wheels ever since.

It's true though, and it's even worse in Chicago.



Not necessarily good or bad. it's just a contextual reality that needs to be considered when having a discussion about his minutes. he doesn't take plays off, he's a coaches dream.


obviously not.

Agreed



he does have a higher USG%. but i'm sure you'd agree with me that Butler has a heavier work load because of what he contributes on the defensive end.

Yes, but again Butler is a 25 year old that barely has an injury history and barely has minutes on his body (he was a graduate of Marquette, not one of those 19 year olds that rack up minutes by the time they're in their late 20s).



we would find plenty examples, however when a guy is the best offensive and best defensive player on his team he's probably also an all-star caliber player who plays big minutes. so obviously guys who fit that description get major minutes.

Okay, so what's the problem with playing Jimmy Butler major minutes, especially considering the context of the Bulls' bench wings sucking donkey butt over half the season, and Dunleavy missing 5 weeks when Snell finally began playing better?



I'm sure that there were also countless examples of that over time. teams losing their legs at the wrong moment. it happened to the Lakers in 2011. Everyone remembers the Dallas sweep but nobody remembers the #1 ranked defense and 17-1 record after the all-star break. teams can peak too soon, teams do break down in late April and may. i'm sure there are also examples of teams who were more conditioned and more disciplined than an equally talented team, who won because their legs didn't give out first, and because they were in better shape; 2003 LAL vs SAS.

There are examples both ways, I'm sure. Probably equal examples. But that Lakers team in 2011 wasn't this Bulls' team this year. Jimmy Butler is 25 and played . Kobe was 32 and played over 40,000 minutes as an NBA player. Even with this season's heavy minute load, Butler has barely played over 7,000 minutes. At the same age, Kobe was at almost exactly 12,000 more minutes. Yeah, 12,000 more. So again, the point is that this Bulls' team isn't being run into the ground. The only player one could argue their minutes should be lower is Pau Gasol, and I'd disagree but understand it. Jimmy Butler though? Heck no



You are leaving out the context. we can find plenty of examples of big minutes but ultimately guys who are their teams best defensive player and best offensive player (or at least do the most work on that end of the floor guarding wings in a wing dominant era) are rare. rather than saying it's nothing out of the ordinary, lets have a discussion on who else in the league carries the same responsibilities that Jimmy Butler has in 2014-2015. there would be a list, but it would be short.

Regardless of how short that list is, Butler is one of those players. And for the Bulls to be good, Butler needs to play those minutes. Luckily enough, he's 25. And he only has 7,000 NBA minutes on his body. And he's in phenomenal shape.



When Tim Duncan was 35 years old, Pop was smart enough to play him 28 minutes per game. not only did it push responsibility down the ranks, but it allowed Tim to age gracefully, and to be in a position to dominate at age 37 and 38. we will see how Pau looks after a tough series, where is legs are at. lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say his numbers don't drop. but that ultimate long term point remains the same. it's about next year and the year after that as well. you guys did sign him for three years you should protect your investment.

The Spurs are a golden franchise that is beautifully drafted and run. The Bulls unfortunately don't have the luxury to only play Pau Gasol 28 minutes a game. Not to mention, Pau is only signed for 2 more years with the Bulls, and the Bulls' BEST chance at a ring is this season more than ever (at least, the roster is more talented than the Jordan years).

So while we'd love to protect our investment, I can't say that we are hurting it either. Pau hasn't missed a beat all year. He is 35, so I'd like for his minutes to be closer to that 30 mark. Still though, Gibson/Noah have missed a combined 30 games. The Bulls could've played Nazr Mohammed 10 minutes a game over those 30 games, but then the Bulls would have lost a greater number of games and not even have HCA in the first round.

So while next year is important, this year is more important. Noah/Gibson aren't getting younger (and Gibson is probably gone). Pau's not getting younger. This discussion kinda reminds me of Lou Piniella taking Carlos Zambrano out in the '08 playoffs in the 6th inning when we were up to save his arm for game 4. The Cubs lost that game 1, and were swept. There was no game 4.



and for that reason i cut Thibs slack for not having the minutes between those three be more even. Can't Mirotic play stretch four?

Mirotic is amazing. He's playing 29+ minutes a game over the last 11 games since Gibson has been out.


Probably Mirotic, Snell (which he has been) McDermott. I think Chicago has some really nice young pieces that will give the a legitimate opportunity to play ten deep next year, and the concern is that he's not developing them enough this year for them to be of use next year as sophmores; I also know McDermott has been injured, so further slack is cut. I'd like to think that two of Pau/Noah/Gibson are healthy on most nights and that we don't need to have a discussion about Nazr Mohammed or Cameron Bairstow because of Mirotic.

Thibs has developed his players flawlessly, time and time again. He won't play guys minutes until they're ready, until they learn the system. But at some point, they always do learn the system. Omer Asik, Taj Gibson, Joakim Noah, Jimmy Butler, Derrick Rose, Nikola Mirotic, Tony Snell have all seen magnificent developments under Thibs. The only guy that Thibs wasn't able to develop thus far was Marquis Teague, who is out of the league because he's just an out of control bad player.

I'll say again, Mirotic has averaged 29+ points a night since Gibson hurt his ankle/bone bruise again.




I'd be interested in seeing a list of players from the past five years, age 35 and above who played 35+ mpg in the regular season and didn't see a statistical drop off in the post season.

Me too


yeah, you're in the moment. the moment of this season. he's a three year investment, well have this conversation again when he's 37 in April 2017. well see how his production is compared to say Duncan, from age 35-37. under the Pop system. under a different approach.

That would be a good discussion, yet you're comparing a top-10 player ever to a top-50 player ever. Duncan is also far more of a defensive player than Pau Gasol. And you're comparing player A with player B. Sometimes, no matter what minutes a player plays at age 35, he's gonna break down at age 36 just because that's the age his clock hit zero. Same with some guys that hit age 30. Some that hit age 32. And so forth.



Of course, great players always want to play. especially after the two years Pau went through. it's the job of coaches and managment to protect the players from themselves and their competitive fire.

Which Thibs is doing


The problem with standing pat and having stubborn perspective on this (both you and Thibs) is that you've run out of options if and when a guy goes down, or sees a drop in production. all you'll be able to do is look back on a lost season. where as being more flexible in your view point here and today allows for adjustments before an injury. In regards to your question on the literature, the spurs, the spurs, and the spurs. if you think Duncan would have dominated the Heat like he did last year had he been averaging 35mpg for the previous 4-5 years, I think you're being naive. he was properly paced, and thats why he was able to succeed with all the marbles on the table. OKC being out two years in a row helped a lot as well.

A lost season? Nope. I can't say that. Your stance is that if Pau Gasol plays less minutes a game, that he won't fall apart 2 years from now. What if the Bulls core on the whole is blown up and rebuilding, that year down the road won't matter. And as far as Duncan, he'd have dominated the Heat in most scenarios. But you're saying that a 38 year old playing 35mpg the previous 4-5 years as if you're saying that Pau Gasol has played those minutes, or will play those minutes. If Pau Gasol needs more rest, Thibs gives him rest. It's really not hard.

Again, I watch 95% of games. Pau hasn't shown any signs of wearing down, and he's only missed a handful of games. If he somehow falls apart health-wise come playoffs, I'd wager that it wasn't because of his minutes through March.



I misread the part of your post that said that the second half of the names that you provided were for the back end of the top 20, which is why I refereed to him as top five. he is however by far the oldest player in the top 20. plus there's a 1mpg difference between #20 and #7 so were kind of splitting hairs.


I'm not splitting hairs, it's just you interpreting the numbers in your own way.


I dont think anyone knows, and that the wisest thing to do is to error on the side of caution. whats the consequence? wouldn't you rather be healthy than have HCA? Pop would. I think looking at Pops blue print and trying to emulate it is the wisest approach. Coach Bud in Atlanta has copied this as well, not a single Atlanta Hawk averages more than 33 mpg. at the very least this provides a great consistency.

And let me tell you, Thibs and the Bulls are indeed erring on the side of caution, with every player. Not just Butler, or Pau. People bring up the Spurs as if it's an easy thing to emulate. Pop himself only first did this what, 2 years ago when he had the deepest team in the league? The Bulls don't have that luxury. The Hawks haven't dealt with injuries like the Bulls' have.




100? so 1.2 less minutes per game? I dont know, but I think two less minutes per game over the course of his entire career would have helped a lot. in that context were talking about over a thousand minutes. keep in mind Durant trains hard in the off-season and has had olympic commitments which hasn't helped. those four months off are so important for the body.

I think a reduction of minutes would have been instrumental in keeping him on the floor. it would have helped batum, and it would have helped Lillard who always slumps in the second half of the season. Portland is worse than Chicago.


Butler hasn't had olympic committments. Every player trains how they need to go stay in shape in the off-season. I think Butler knows his body more than you or I do, or more than Thibs does.


as you said, anyone can get injured at any time.


Right, so playing Butler or Pau less doesn't really change anything. It's a risk of the sport. And again, Pau hasn't begun to deteriorate or anything. He's been fantastic and steady throughout the year. And when the bigs were all healthy, he played less than 32mpg.


just because one guy goes down and the other guy doesn't, it doesn't mean it's good for the guy who didn't go down, it just means he withstood it. you fly back and forth between extremes without considering the middle ground.

It doesn't mean it's bad either. You're considering the middle ground is the only logical option for Thibs. You think 39mpg is extreme. For Tim Duncan or Kobe it is. But for Jimmy Butler? No. Is 35mpg high for Pau? A little higher than I'd like, but again he hasn't missed a beat. He hasn't lost his demeanor or looked tired.


also, People have different DNA, different physical geometry and contort their bodies in different ways in different situations. context, diet, role, and off-season training play a big part.

Which lets Butler play so many minutes. So why hate on Thibs for doing so? Maybe Pau Gasol is in better shape than he has been in years, and is finally able to take on the minutes load?


we can't possibly know this, so to say anything would be speculation.

There are no coincidences.

You're speculating a lot as well. And yes, there definitely are coincidences.


The game has changed so much since the 40's, you can't just look at the league since its beginning and treat it like its one singular sample size in regards to what were talking about. you break it down era by era, and as many have noticed players just seem to be getting injured at a higher rate than in the past, regardless of what the minutes tell us. why?

Who's noticed? Where are the numbers? You're claiming that to be true, without taking a look at the history of other eras and providing any evidence to suppor the theory that players get injured more now than before. So much for the advancements in training, medicine, rehab, diet, etc.

Saddletramp
03-16-2015, 05:05 AM
Jesus guys, do you get paid by the post, the quote or by the word?

Also, I saw that Joakim commercial where he says he doesn't care when you were drafted, or what you did in college or high school or what you did last year etc...... and then said "I only care with what you do today" or whatever. My instant thought was that I thought he had Rose's back and now he's clearly calling him out.

Shammyguy3
03-16-2015, 08:56 PM
no, that's a logical fallacy. just because some players have been able to withstand the load, it doesn't mean it was best for their longevity. just because you mention four players who've managed to not go down in their 20s, it doesn't refute the Pop approach to success. further,

Longevity isn't a stressed component of the league though. It's a difficult league as is to win one ring, let alone plan for a dynasty over 10 years. Even with someone playing only X amount of minutes doesn't mean that their bodies can't or won't break down after a certain age.

Pop's approach to success is distorted and rare. I don't fully buy what you're selling, the only way it has worked out for Pop is due to him having the best run front office in the league, with a team that is routinely better than others in depth, and he's been blessed with players that have aged gracefully (i'm not discounting that his minutes management hasn't helped, but again it's not a guarantee either way you go with them).



they had good fortune. some guys don't. thats why you create a system, like Pop where the destiny of your season; it doesn't rely simply on good fortune, you create a structure where you have more control over your own destiny. Pop stoped relying on good fortune for good when Manu was out aganst Memphis in 2012 and the Spurs lost.

But why isn't Thibs doing this exact same thing? Perhaps he's doing exactly what you critique him of not doing, forming a system that gets the best out of players and a team without salvaging the future. A thing about Pop stopping relying on good fortune in 2012 - Manu's minutes load that year wasn't the problem with his injury that took him out of the playoffs. Similar to Butler's elbow injury: his minutes load had no effect on how it got hyperextended when caught in a solitary screen.



I think Brooks is your guy. sucks for the defense but at least the other guys can help cover for him.

I'd love to see him get some run.

Yeah, he's our best backup PG we've had under Thibs. I don't think we miss a lot with him when Rose isn't on the floor because he spaces so well and is just as fast.


haha right, but when he got the chance and coach ran with him he looks pretty damn good at times. imagine him mirotic and mcdermott in two years if developed properly? it'll be scary.

Yup, and I have 100% faith in Thibs that he is, if not the best, arguably the best at developing players.


Your bench has a lot of promise and upside and I dont know why you're so down on it. the real problem is Rose and Jimmy not being healthy as we approach playoffs. Taj might not be playing like last season but the Amare comparison has to be an exaggeration. but i get it.

It's really not an exaggeration. Gibson at times has played as bad as Amare played in his prime. And at the same time, and this has been a constant thing all year, Gibson vehemently refuses to pass out of double teams. He pretty much turns the ball over half the time when you count his awful double-,triple-,quadruple teamed field goal attempts.

I'm down on the bench because it isn't nearly as good as I imagined it would be. Upside goes out the door when you're 70 games into the year and your best player off the bench is a rookie, when the veteran leader of your bench in Kirk/Taj are arguably the worse guys out their on the court at times (that always holds true for Kirk, I'd rather Fisher be out there than Kirk this year).



Some guys have good fortune, have stronger constitutions, etc. Why did McGrady fall apart? we dont know the answers to these questions. thats why the wise error on the side of caution and try to control what they can. freak accidents are unavoidable, but injuries that happen when a players is tired (most injuries) can be contained.

I disagree that most injuries can be contained. Most injuries are sprained ankles, which happen no matter what minute management. I'm content with how Thibs manages minutes, and I think there are times he should give other guys more burn but it hasn't affected this team in any of the seasons we've been here (unfortunately that mob-mentality makes it seem it has affected this team every year, such a shame)



Iverson fell apart at 33 because he played way too many minutes over his entire career, thats my whole point on the last post when I mentioned Iverson.

But him playing even 6 less minutes every game from ages 23-33 wouldn't have mattered, he'd have nearly the same breakdown because of his style of play, his inefficiency, etc.


You're exaggerating. I never said he fell off in the middle of his prime, just that he could have lasted for longer. Should I put together a list of guys who made all-star games for NBA teams after their 12th season in the NBA? that's when Iverson disappeared from the NBA.


Considering the fact that that's impossible, I dont know why I'd even entertain answering it.

Iverson's an extreme example. Much like how Malone played almost every 82-game season he ever played and averaged 37+mpg his whole career through age 41 pretty much.



Oh no we lost the 3rd seed! common, a healthy team is always more important then where you sit in the bracket.


what about them.

But seeding DOES matter. How many teams have won a ring without being at least a top-4 seed in their conference? Top-3? Top-5? Hardly.



Thibs minutes being a problem doesn't have to be highlighted with only significant injuries. it's the general wear and tear. it's the deng effect, the kirk effect.


You can't group Kirk in this conversation. He's aged disgracefully while never playing serious minutes, it's just that he hit that age and can't do anything right. Deng started falling off right when most players fall off, between ages 29-30.


Id like to see Rose at 28 in regular season and 32 in the playoffs, if possible.

he still overshoots it, we disagree.

they're people.

He'd be garbage either way, I don't even wanna see that anymore :laugh2:



it would be great for my point to hammer on about Deng, but I agree with you and there are too many other factors to consider. it would be a pigeonhole of an argument for me to blame it all on playing under Thibs system. but its interesting.

Agreed




context is always needed.


you're looking at it the wrong way. we have more information in every field than ever before. there comes a point where doing things exactly like your predecessors did is a failure. its a failure to adjust for new information and knowledge. its a stubborn mentality that isn't flexible.


There comes a point where doing certain things unlike your predecessors is also a failure. I think Thibs has adjusted for new information and learned things along the way. He's presented it in many situations time and time again in developing players and the teams' philosophy on the court.


With the information that he had on sports medicine at the time, perhaps. But when the new information come, Pop adjusted. the rest of the league hasn't caught up yet. they will.

Playing Duncan 31mpg versus 29mpg doesn't really make any difference over the course of 82 games where he gets scheduled days rest off anyway. 150ish minutes over 6 months of a regular season has far less of an impact on a player in the post-season than you think, at least in my opinion.

And again, Thibs has adjusted. Especially apparent when he had a bench to work with, a fully-equipped and healthy team to boot. He's only had that chance like 15 times this year.



you're not adjusting for the reality of information in the digital age. of course the older generation will play more than butler, this wasn't on the radar back then. we never would have had this conversation ten years ago. but injuries are off the charts, guys are more explosive, and theres more two way basketball being played by the league on the whole. again, all that context is important. plus, Kobe paid, Iverson paid, their bodies slowly broke down over five year periods. Any time you mention MJ, it's a distraction. He sat for two years, and the context of that changes how we can compare and contrast him in this discussion.

I do consider that, i just also consider how the game has changed and players appear to be getting injured at a higher rate. if nobody was going down we'd be talking about the brilliance of NBA training staffs, not about how coaches have questionable rotations.



I've yet to see anything that states this though. And what if someone argued that injuries are off the charts because players aren't as conditioned as they were 30 years ago when they were playing at a faster pace and more minutes? I'm not making that argument, but I've seen it been made before. Devil's advocate could easily say because these guys' minutes on the whole are down, it's resulting in more injuries (if there are more on average, idk and haven't seen anything to say so) because they aren't as well conditioned.


More specifically twitter and instagram. and, yes absolutely. players hear everything and when a guys reputation takes a hit pride kicks in. go watch a regular season game for the 80s. just because the fouls were harder doesn't mean they played two way basketball. there is more pressure today.


More pressure because the league is bigger, but i don't think us debating right now about Jimmy being a good two-way player and Pau not being one makes Pau wanna try harder. And there's more 2-way basketball because coaches learned how to first use the 3 point line, and defenses followed suit by defending that line better. The product of the game today is vastly improved than 20ish and greater years ago, would you agree? I think so at least, from the youtube videos and classic games I've watched.



again, the middle ground.




Not an excuse, just the reality of the situation. everything i said about Blatt and his situation is completely accurate.

no but theyre some of the most blatant examples. you underestimate the power of the hot seat.

But Thibs isn't in the hot-seat. It's been reported that he's the one making waves and wanting to leave. So again, this situation I'm debating comes back to Thibs and his running players into the ground (which nobody has shown is true yet, or provided any evidence to my contrasting point of view with the masses)


Poor guy, so sad for him to be given all these injury prone players all the time.

Natural declines should be controlled, slowed down. guys like Iverson and Deng aren't supposed to just drop off the face of the planet. Noahs decline this season isn't natural. it's more drastic than it should be, look at his PER, TS% and WS/48.

Deng hasn't dropped off the face of the planet. And Noah's decline this season is absolutely natural, when you factor in that he's had plantar fasciitis his career along with nagging injuries and being a 7 footer. His offense has taken a major hit because he had no lift after recovering from a minor knee surgery in the summer. Could his 36mpg the last two years have contributed to that? Sure, but playing him only 34mpg I don't think would make a statistically significant difference.




I misread that part.


it's more so that I think it's a waste of time to bother writing whos 20th. for 2014 theres only a minute difference between whos 7th and whos 20th (Pau). we waste our time looking at rankings instead of just the minutes, which was my point. but even then you seem to scoff at the idea of time minutes a game per season being irrelevant.

Not just 100 less minutes, probably 160. and for two or three years. that could have made a huge difference.

I wonder what the minutes difference is between the 20th guy and the 50th guy. I bet it's not a lot, which easily could be saying that Pau is close to being top-10 in minutes per game but also out of the top-50.

So 450 minutes over a 1,095 day span would have been a huge difference? I can't buy that






you haven't done that. you just ignored context and made the discussion as simplistic as possible because it's easier to stand ground on a questionable opinion when you operate in absolutes.

I don't think I'm doing that at all, i'm not making anything more complicated than it needs to be unless someone can show that Thibs is indeed, running players into the ground (words not only you but others have used)



so what, theyre all guilty. Thibs is just under the microscope be hes great and has been given all these injury prone players, as you described it.


yes.

at the cost of now, yes (how convenient, after they trade him). at 30, hes paying the price. just because he didn't have a career ending injury, doesn't mean it was good for the longevity of his career, clearly it wasn't.

He'd have paid the price at age 30 no matter what. I doubt there'd be any difference in his production at all actually.


guys like myself who want to add context don't attempt to do that so they can blow things off. but thank you for referring to me in first person this time. iyou're laughing off two minutes a game for a few years in a row like its irrelevant, thats where youre mistaken. pop proved that it worked. Bud is following suit, and everyone else is slowly getting in line.

Not irrelevent, but not statistically meaningful. Pop proved that having a 10-man team that works together, works. Perhaps his reasoning for playing his guys so many minutes is to make sure everyone else gets acclimated with each other. And the minutes load was only a byproduct after he realized how deep his team has become.



haha. well before you play a guy into the ground you have to, you know, play him. well see when McD starting getting minutes.

It's starting now, but i doubt he's good enough to merit playing ahead of Snell/Dunleavy/Butler/Mirotic at the 3 this year.



But I thought Thibs has had the misfortune of always getting all these injury proned players as you stated? I'm just kidding, but thats kind of how you debate at times.

The Bulls have had tough luck in that regard, it's true


Deng is not an iron man. he never was. he missed 21 games his rookie season, he played 63 games in 2008, 49 in 2009, and 52 in 2012. he played in 68.2 games a year over a nine year period, and only started in 63 games a year over that nine year period. Those aren't the numbers of a decade long iron man, thats a guy dealing with nagging injuries constantly.

But how many games did he play in 2010, 2011, and 2013? He averaged 76 games those seasons. And you're partially making a point that Thibs minutes load on guys don't wear them down, it's their history of injuries that play a greater impact on them. Especially a player that has injury history and then turns 30, like Deng.


this is more so just Thibs, and the Bulls fans following in his wake, believing that his and their players aren't breakable, that they are robots, and that are iron men. over stating their durability when people starting asking about minutes, while cliaming that theyre injury prone when the discussion is critical of Thibs after the fact, while getting upset when both insiders (ownership and managment) and outsiders (fans of other teams) criticize that which has become blatantly obvious.

I don't think that's what Thibs says at all.



I think it is wrong (not morally, just in terms of giving your team the highest chance of success) and predict that the league will not only replicate Pops space and pace, but also his rotations. Bud has incorporated both with the Hawks.

The Hawks are a definite mystery to me, but if they fail in the 1st round after not playing any of their starters significant minutes, we could easily ask them "what could have been" after a lost season (which you've brought up in debate for the Bulls if they look back and ask the same after a year where Thibs played players X Y and Z minutes)


it is an accepted fact that everyone league wide is burnt out by the post-season (some more than others, which is really the specific point that weve been debating). thus numbers go down. what exactly would you conclude if you were presented with statistics that reflect that its rare to outproduce your regular season production against the cream of the league in games #83-#107?

I'd think that's because teams in the playoffs have better defenses than the regular season lottery teams. And that plays a MUCH greater role in post-season production than minutes management from games 1-82 (which most players never play anymore due to this league-wide notion that every player regardless of age needs days off)