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ewing
03-10-2015, 10:02 AM
Didn't give it much thought but

1 Micheal
2 Kobe
3 Wade
4 Reggie Miller
5 Clyde Dexler

I think 1 through 3 are givens after that its a little trickier.

valade16
03-10-2015, 11:19 AM
Didn't give it much thought but

1 Micheal
2 Kobe
3 Wade
4 Reggie Miller
5 Clyde Dexler

I think 1 through 3 are givens after that its a little trickier.

As a Blazer fan I have to vehemently disagree with Reggie over Clyde. Clyde was better at everything except shooting than Reggie and he scored more than enough (at an efficient rate) to make up that difference.

I also think T-Mac, Vince, Penny, Ray Allen, etc. are better than Reggie.

IndyRealist
03-10-2015, 11:23 AM
As a Blazer fan I have to vehemently disagree with Reggie over Clyde. Clyde was better at everything except shooting than Reggie and he scored more than enough (at an efficient rate) to make up that difference.

I also think T-Mac, Vince, Penny, Ray Allen, etc. are better than Reggie.

I'm a Pacers fan and there's no way Reggie should be over Clyde. The rest may or may not be debatable (due to injury, lack of playoff success as the #1, etc).

ewing
03-10-2015, 11:36 AM
As a Blazer fan I have to vehemently disagree with Reggie over Clyde. Clyde was better at everything except shooting than Reggie and he scored more than enough (at an efficient rate) to make up that difference.

I also think T-Mac, Vince, Penny, Ray Allen, etc. are better than Reggie.


i thought i might be going out on a limb putting Reggie above Cylde but Dexler's teams were just so stacked. Reggie did hell of a lot for those pacers teams, they had sustained success, he had a longer career, and a bunch of historically clutch moments. T-Mac is a SF in my mind. Vince peaked during all star weekend so i don't give him much consideration, and Penny was an elite player for what like 2 seasons (he also played PG then, well he had a cool commercial). Ray Allen is definitely worthy of consideration. I'll think about that one

ewing
03-10-2015, 11:47 AM
i will concede Dexler over Miller.

PurpleLynch
03-10-2015, 11:49 AM
Well,it's actually the correct ranking,even if I don't like ranking players. I agree thought,Drexler should be put fourth instead of Miller.

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 12:07 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Tracy McGrady

After that, I'd probably go something like this:
6. Ray Allen
7. Allen Iverson
8. Reggie Miller
9. Vince Carter
10. Manu Ginobili

Just outside the top 10:
11. Joe Dumars
12. Mitch Richmond
13. James Harden
14. Brandon Roy
15. Jason Terry

I was trying to stick to players who peaked in the late 80s or later, so I kept Alvin Robertson off the list. But if I had placed him on the list, he would probably end up around 14th or 15th.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2015, 12:14 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Tracy McGrady

After that, I'd probably go something like this:
6. Ray Allen
7. Allen Iverson
8. Reggie Miller
9. Vince Carter
10. Manu Ginobili

Just outside the top 10:
11. Joe Dumars
12. Mitch Richmond
13. James Harden
14. Brandon Roy
15. Jason Terry

I was trying to stick to players who peaked in the late 80s or later, so I kept Alvin Robertson off the list. But if I had placed him on the list, he would probably end up around 14th or 15th.

I loved him. Once he got his rep as a great defender, the refs basically turned a blind eye to him. He would literally grab your dribbling hand, throw it to the side, and steal the ball haha.

KingPosey
03-10-2015, 12:22 PM
Man the disrespect for The Rock is amazing here.

ewing
03-10-2015, 01:00 PM
Man the disrespect for The Rock is amazing here.

Dwanye Johnson gets mad respect

ewing
03-10-2015, 01:21 PM
I loved him. Once he got his rep as a great defender, the refs basically turned a blind eye to him. He would literally grab your dribbling hand, throw it to the side, and steal the ball haha.

I remember when Derek Harper came to the knicks, Walt Frazier was amazed with the **** he would get away with. He had big *** hands and in the hand check era, he would lock unto your hip, literally turn the offensive player by the hip into him, knock the ball into the back court, and then chase it down for a break away layup. He did it at least once a game.

lakerfan85
03-10-2015, 01:24 PM
Man the disrespect for The Rock is amazing here.

Mitch Richmond!!

lakerfan85
03-10-2015, 01:28 PM
Man the disrespect for The Rock is amazing here.

And I agree.. Richmond was a beast

lol, please
03-10-2015, 01:30 PM
Why are we separating Bird and Jordan when they are from the same era? Blatantly biased, the hate for Bird is real on PSD.

ewing
03-10-2015, 01:34 PM
Why are we separating Bird and Jordan when they are from the same era? Blatantly biased, the hate for Bird is real on PSD.


what are you talking about? Larry was not a shooting guard. I said post Magic Bird b/c those are guys i have seen play basketball and i think their entrance into the league marks a new era for the league.

lol, please
03-10-2015, 01:53 PM
You make it sound like Jordan came after, that's my point, also, a prime Bird today would make the Celtics instant contenders. Instantly. Probably MVP candidate as well.

ewing
03-10-2015, 01:58 PM
You make it sound like Jordan came after, that's my point, also, a prime Bird today would make the Celtics instant contenders. Instantly. Probably MVP candidate as well.

He did enter the league after Bird. he also was a shooting guard.

lol, please
03-10-2015, 02:00 PM
Yea but they were rivals for a while. Just saying it sounds like a slight on Bird, and that hurts my Bird-nut-hugging feelings.

ewing
03-10-2015, 02:01 PM
Yea but they were rivals for a while. Just saying it sounds like a slight on Bird, and that hurts my Bird-nut-hugging feelings.


sorry buddy

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 02:15 PM
Man the disrespect for The Rock is amazing here.

You could probably make a case for Richmond in the top 10, but I just couldn't justify putting him ahead of guys like Ginobili and Dumars who were so integral to great championship teams of the last 25 years.

Chronz
03-10-2015, 02:28 PM
The only confusion I have when these things come around is this, are we measuring careers or talent? What role does ones accolades have here? Should we ignore them entirely, strip this thing down to our own interpretation of how they influenced winning... Or do we value the sheer accumulation of All-Star/ALL-NBA selections, rings and MVP's alike.


I agree with you on just how stacked Drexler's Blazers were. He was their best player but it was often Porter who came up big in key games/moments for him. Sorta like C-Webb and Bibby, Sam and KG(at least to you) only more successful. To this day I still believe the addition of Arvydas would have propelled them into a level that would have represented the greatest obstacle to MJ's Bulls. I would have favored the Blazers.
Still, that would only enhance Clyde's resume and his efficiency, but he would be no different of a player. So while I think we should value accolades, I think talent and impact on winning should be the overwhelming factor in these decisions. That way we mainly have to focus on the debate between prime/peak runs vs Longevity.


1. Michael Jordan
-----
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
* This one is closer than most seem to think, Wade falls short in the longevity and accolades department, but he has arguably the best stretches of play if we isolate individual campaigns.) I give Kobe the edge because of Wade's injuries over the years and also because of "the laugh factor". I can argue Kobe being a Top-8 player without getting laughed at, I struggle to convince people that Wade is top-20. Still, Wade IS in that category with West (if not above).
-----

4. Clyde Drexler
5. Tracy McGrady
* This comp hits me hard because they have so many similarities and such drastically different careers. I know in my heart of hearts that Tmac was the superior player, I just cant get myself to admit accolades and team success matter that little. At least not in the "Career" Sense. But at his best, we're talking a guy who could defend 1-4 credibly. Obviously not hulking C's masquerading as PF's like Duncan, but he had great success against the likes of KG/Dirk. Tmac's only flaw was that he wasn't a great finisher in the paint, certainly not like Clyde. But he had the COMPLETE offensive package. That prime didn't last long, but Im thinking it was long enough to accumulate the most All-NBA teams of just about everyone else left on this list. Enough to garner far more MVP cred. Combine that with his other worldly statistics (in an era dominated by defense) and its a true testament to just how great this guy was at the top of his powers.

Tmac struggled with his health but the biggest lost to his legacy is that, the guys who were actually suppose to be the players their respective franchises were actually trying to build around (Hill+Yao), wound up missing most of the important games/seasons of Tmac's career. Drexler gets in because his teammates stayed healthy, his durability and his admittedly great run to a championship.
----------------------

6. Moncrief
7. Ray Allen
* Two former Bucks, both hyper efficient, albeit vastly different scorers. The Squid gets the edge because he was on another world defensively(I know he was a young pup but check out his defense vs MJ in the playoffs). Ray has the longevity factor, but I feel like we should at least give some credit for the fact that athletes last longer today to the medical/training improvements at their disposal. Moncrief stood the test of time long enough for me in this comparison but I dont mind if anyone else swaps them. Another good example of career vs talent.

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 02:31 PM
Moncrief is another guy I considered and probably would have cracked my top 10, but I eliminated because he peaked in the mid 80s and was essentially done around the same time Bird and Magic were.

ewing
03-10-2015, 02:36 PM
the only confusion i have when these things come around is this, are we measuring careers or talent? What role does ones accolades have here? Should we ignore them entirely, strip this thing down to our own interpretation of how they influenced winning... Or do we value the sheer accumulation of all-star/all-nba selections, rings and mvp's alike.


I agree with you on just how stacked drexler's blazers were. He was their best player but it was often porter who came up big in key games/moments for him. Sorta like c-webb and bibby, sam and kg(at least to you) only more successful. To this day i still believe the addition of arvydas would have propelled them into a level that would have represented the greatest obstacle to mj's bulls. I would have favored the blazers.
Still, that would only enhance clyde's resume and his efficiency, but he would be no different of a player. So while i think we should value accolades, i think talent and impact on winning should be the overwhelming factor in these decisions. That way we mainly have to focus on the debate between prime/peak runs vs longevity.


1. Michael jordan
-----
2. Kobe bryant
3. Dwyane wade
* this one is closer than most seem to think, wade falls short in the longevity and accolades department, but he has arguably the best stretches of play if we isolate individual campaigns.) i give kobe the edge because of wade's injuries over the years and also because of "the laugh factor". I can argue kobe being a top-8 player without getting laughed at, i struggle to convince people that wade is top-20. Still, wade is in that category with west (if not above).
-----

4. Clyde drexler
5. Tracy mcgrady
* this comp hits me hard because they have so many similarities and such drastically different careers. I know in my heart of hearts that tmac was the superior player, i just cant get myself to admit accolades and team success matter that little. At least not in the "career" sense. But at his best, we're talking a guy who could defend 1-4 credibly. Obviously not hulking c's masquerading as pf's like duncan, but he had great success against the likes of kg/dirk. Tmac's only flaw was that he wasn't a great finisher in the paint, certainly not like clyde. But he had the complete offensive package. That prime didn't last long, but im thinking it was long enough to accumulate the most all-nba teams of just about everyone else left on this list. Enough to garner far more mvp cred. Combine that with his other worldly statistics (in an era dominated by defense) and its a true testament to just how great this guy was at the top of his powers.

Tmac struggled with his health but the biggest lost to his legacy is that, the guys who were actually suppose to be the players their respective franchises were actually trying to build around (hill+yao), wound up missing most of the important games/seasons of tmac's career. Drexler gets in because his teammates stayed healthy, his durability and his admittedly great run to a championship.
----------------------

6. Moncrief
7. Ray allen
* two former bucks, both hyper efficient, albeit vastly different scorers. The squid gets the edge because he was on another world defensively(i know he was a young pup but check out his defense vs mj in the playoffs). Ray has the longevity factor, but i feel like we should at least give some credit for the fact that athletes last longer today to the medical/training improvements at their disposal. Moncrief stood the test of time long enough for me in this comparison but i dont mind if anyone else swaps them. Another good example of career vs talent.



very good analysis chronz. If you don't mind me asking where do you place reggie and manu? Reggie is the guy i seem to have rated higher then the masses and manu like kevin mchale confounds me a little. Is he top 10? whose company is he in? . I think McHale and Manu had the talent to be stand alone stars, both never were given the chance, both came off the bench, and both frequently played less then star's mins.

ManningToTyree
03-10-2015, 02:36 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Allen
Miller is really overrated around here

Chronz
03-10-2015, 02:37 PM
You could probably make a case for Richmond in the top 10, but I just couldn't justify putting him ahead of guys like Ginobili and Dumars who were so integral to great championship teams of the last 25 years.

Dumars is overrated to me. People say he defended MJ the best (including MJ himself if Im not mistaken) but I feel that is a disservice to guys like Squid, GP, Coop and Im sure Im forgetting a few others. But I find it hard to believe a small combo guard is this big difference maker defensively. MJ torched him even with the bad boys loading up as much as they were allowed that era. They couldn't outright "form a ****ing wall" in those days but they were the closest to maximizing the zone rules.


He doesn't stand out statistically, he won but it wasn't a dominant run by any means. He had a great matchup advantage in the Finals but its like seeing Cornbread win his FMVP. You knew he was a peripheral piece who had a great series. I see people not give Zeke all that much credit for his chips in certain arguments and hes a MUCH better player than Dumars.

valade16
03-10-2015, 02:38 PM
The only confusion I have when these things come around is this, are we measuring careers or talent? What role does ones accolades have here? Should we ignore them entirely, strip this thing down to our own interpretation of how they influenced winning... Or do we value the sheer accumulation of All-Star/ALL-NBA selections, rings and MVP's alike.

I agree with you on just how stacked Drexler's Blazers were. He was their best player but it was often Porter who came up big in key games/moments for him. Sorta like C-Webb and Bibby, Sam and KG(at least to you) only more successful. To this day I still believe the addition of Arvydas would have propelled them into a level that would have represented the greatest obstacle to MJ's Bulls. I would have favored the Blazers.
Still, that would only enhance Clyde's resume and his efficiency, but he would be no different of a player. So while I think we should value accolades, I think talent and impact on winning should be the overwhelming factor in these decisions. That way we mainly have to focus on the debate between prime/peak runs vs Longevity.


1. Michael Jordan
-----
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
* This one is closer than most seem to think, Wade falls short in the longevity and accolades department, but he has arguably the best stretches of play if we isolate individual campaigns.) I give Kobe the edge because of Wade's injuries over the years and also because of "the laugh factor". I can argue Kobe being a Top-8 player without getting laughed at, I struggle to convince people that Wade is top-20. Still, Wade IS in that category with West (if not above).
-----

4. Clyde Drexler
5. Tracy McGrady
* This comp hits me hard because they have so many similarities and such drastically different careers. I know in my heart of hearts that Tmac was the superior player, I just cant get myself to admit accolades and team success matter that little. At least not in the "Career" Sense. But at his best, we're talking a guy who could defend 1-4 credibly. Obviously not hulking C's masquerading as PF's like Duncan, but he had great success against the likes of KG/Dirk. Tmac's only flaw was that he wasn't a great finisher in the paint, certainly not like Clyde. But he had the COMPLETE offensive package. That prime didn't last long, but Im thinking it was long enough to accumulate the most All-NBA teams of just about everyone else left on this list. Enough to garner far more MVP cred. Combine that with his other worldly statistics (in an era dominated by defense) and its a true testament to just how great this guy was at the top of his powers.

Tmac struggled with his health but the biggest lost to his legacy is that, the guys who were actually suppose to be the players their respective franchises were actually trying to build around (Hill+Yao), wound up missing most of the important games/seasons of Tmac's career. Drexler gets in because his teammates stayed healthy, his durability and his admittedly great run to a championship.
----------------------

6. Moncrief
7. Ray Allen
* Two former Bucks, both hyper efficient, albeit vastly different scorers. The Squid gets the edge because he was on another world defensively(I know he was a young pup but check out his defense vs MJ in the playoffs). Ray has the longevity factor, but I feel like we should at least give some credit for the fact that athletes last longer today to the medical/training improvements at their disposal. Moncrief stood the test of time long enough for me in this comparison but I dont mind if anyone else swaps them. Another good example of career vs talent.

1st Bolded: I still have the 1992 Sports Illustrated NBA Season preview that predicted the Bulls beat the Blazers 4-2. The exact final line was: The Blazers are the best team in the league, but the Bulls have Michael Jordan.

2nd Bolded: I think T-Mac has 1 year clearly ahead of anything Clyde ever did. However, although T-Mac could defend 1-4 Drexler was accounted a pretty good defender himself, and although the stats are skewed by the team, he has better DBPM. It's a tough comparison, although I agree the success and accolades propel Drexler above.

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 02:55 PM
Dumars is overrated to me. People say he defended MJ the best (including MJ himself if Im not mistaken) but I feel that is a disservice to guys like Squid, GP, Coop and Im sure Im forgetting a few others. But I find it hard to believe a small combo guard is this big difference maker defensively. MJ torched him even with the bad boys loading up as much as they were allowed that era. They couldn't outright "form a ****ing wall" in those days but they were the closest to maximizing the zone rules.

He doesn't stand out statistically, he won but it wasn't a dominant run by any means. He had a great matchup advantage in the Finals but its like seeing Cornbread win his FMVP. You knew he was a peripheral piece who had a great series. I see people not give Zeke all that much credit for his chips in certain arguments and hes a MUCH better player than Dumars.
I agree Dumars is a tad overrated. But he did have a solid four year stretch where he averaged basically 20 points and 4 assists with solid scoring efficiency and elite 3-point shooting to go along with being considered one of the best perimeter defenders in the sport. He might have just been a glorified 3 and D guy, but he was damn good at it and I just don't think the Pistons win a title, much less two titles, without him.


I think T-Mac has 1 year clearly ahead of anything Clyde ever did. However, although T-Mac could defend 1-4 Drexler was accounted a pretty good defender himself, and although the stats are skewed by the team, he has better DBPM. It's a tough comparison, although I agree the success and accolades propel Drexler above.
This exactly. If you are going solely by peak, I think you could make a case for T-Mac as being a better player than even Kobe. But you can't just toss longevity, consistency, team success and postseason performance out the window. If T-Mac had stayed healthy and had a little more luck with Yao and the Rockets, we could be talking about McGrady in the same conversation as Dwyane Wade, but as it is, I think he's a tier below Wade and Drexler. It helps that both of those guys were also superior defenders to McGrady.

Goose17
03-10-2015, 03:08 PM
How far down are the Michael Finleys, Andre Iguodalas, Redds, Stackhouses and Richardsons?

ewing
03-10-2015, 03:15 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Allen
Miller is really overrated around here


I disagree, i might overrated him a bit but overall he seems underrated in this thread IMO. He is better then anyone i have ever seen off the ball. that plus ruthless shooting, efficient scoring, leadership, team success without great talent, and an iconicly good playoff resume during his prime should count for something.

ewing
03-10-2015, 03:18 PM
I agree Dumars is a tad overrated. But he did have a solid four year stretch where he averaged basically 20 points and 4 assists with solid scoring efficiency and elite 3-point shooting to go along with being considered one of the best perimeter defenders in the sport. He might have just been a glorified 3 and D guy, but he was damn good at it and I just don't think the Pistons win a title, much less two titles, without him.


This exactly. If you are going solely by peak, I think you could make a case for T-Mac as being a better player than even Kobe. But you can't just toss longevity, consistency, team success and postseason performance out the window. If T-Mac had stayed healthy and had a little more luck with Yao and the Rockets, we could be talking about McGrady in the same conversation as Dwyane Wade, but as it is, I think he's a tier below Wade and Drexler. It helps that both of those guys were also superior defenders to McGrady.

i agree, T-Mac was criminally good. Injury and circumstance really hampered what should have been a greater career.

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 03:20 PM
How far down are the Michael Finleys, Andre Iguodalas, Redds, Stackhouses and Richardsons?

I didn't include Finely or Iggy, because I consider them small forwards rather than shooting guards. The other three guys would probably be in the same conversation as Terry in that 15-20 range, but I'd probably rank them 1. Terry, 2. Redd, 3. Richardson, 4. Stackhouse. I'm sure there are other guys who belong in his conversation, but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.

Chronz
03-10-2015, 03:27 PM
1st Bolded: I still have the 1992 Sports Illustrated NBA Season preview that predicted the Bulls beat the Blazers 4-2. The exact final line was: The Blazers are the best team in the league, but the Bulls have Michael Jordan.

2nd Bolded: I think T-Mac has 1 year clearly ahead of anything Clyde ever did. However, although T-Mac could defend 1-4 Drexler was accounted a pretty good defender himself, and although the stats are skewed by the team, he has better DBPM. It's a tough comparison, although I agree the success and accolades propel Drexler above.

TMac raised his defense another level come playoffs, to a degree I dont recall from Drexler. Feel free to cite any instance, Tmac did this annually (Well, except when he missed the playoffs) so I can point out many matchups. Including some from the regular season. Because of the load he carried, Tmac only brought his A game defensively on select few nights, he was very similar to Kobe in that regard, key matchups piqued his interest. I have a game where he completely shuts down Pierce and Vince. Even Kobe once admitted his length bothering him defensively. GM's and Coaches alike raved about his defense/versatility. The guy had legit Pippen potential if he ever had the horses to help him offensively.

Chronz
03-10-2015, 03:28 PM
I miss vintage Michael Redd, dude was a worker. He strayed away from his game tho

ewing
03-10-2015, 03:33 PM
As a Blazer fan I have to vehemently disagree with Reggie over Clyde. Clyde was better at everything except shooting than Reggie and he scored more than enough (at an efficient rate) to make up that difference.

I also think T-Mac, Vince, Penny, Ray Allen, etc. are better than Reggie.

I'm going to disagree with Ray Allen too. I think they were both great shooters and great coming off screens/moving with the ball. Reggie was just the best at it. Probably the best there ever will be. Ray had a better handle and could shake someone off the dribble every once in a while but Reggie was just better at what made them special and i think a more efficient scorer that required more attention. Defending Reggie miller was a nightmare. Rip on the Pistons is the only thing that is even slightly comparable. Add in the fact the Reggie's #s sky rocket in the playoffs, while achieving team success i'm taking Reggie all day. Even when given the chance to be a 2nd or 3rd option Ray playoff record is spotty. Light it up one series, miss everything the next. Finally, i don't bump guys for ring chasing.

Slug3
03-10-2015, 03:36 PM
Why are we separating Bird and Jordan when they are from the same era? Blatantly biased, the hate for Bird is real on PSD.

I just think a lot of people didn't get to watch Bird play, and he is honestly not talked about in the same light as Jordan.

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 03:43 PM
Yea but they were rivals for a while. Just saying it sounds like a slight on Bird, and that hurts my Bird-nut-hugging feelings.


You make it sound like Jordan came after, that's my point, also, a prime Bird today would make the Celtics instant contenders. Instantly. Probably MVP candidate as well.
What are you talking about? OP was clearly just asking for a list of the greatest shooting guards after the Bird-Magic era peaked. In what way is that a slight on Bird? He didn't play SG, so Bird has literally nothing to do with this thread aside from the fact that OP was using his era to give us a time period to base our lists on. He just as easily could have said "Top five SG of the last 25 years" and it would have meant essentially the same thing.

Tony_Starks
03-10-2015, 03:56 PM
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Drexler

Chronz
03-10-2015, 04:03 PM
very good analysis chronz. If you don't mind me asking where do you place reggie and manu? Reggie is the guy i seem to have rated higher then the masses and manu like kevin mchale confounds me a little. Is he top 10? whose company is he in? . I think McHale and Manu had the talent to be stand alone stars, both never were given the chance, both came off the bench, and both frequently played less then star's mins.
Polarizing figures. Think I've changed my stance on both Reggie and McHale over the years.


Reggie was a victim of his era, for good and for bad. I cant prove this, but I feel like coaches held it against him for specializing in an aspect of the game that wasn't far removed from being seen as little more than a novelty instead of the legitimate weapon it was. I say this because both the media and coaches suppressed his All-Star/All-NBA appearances. Even opposing players disrespected him, I remember MJ calling his game a joke (as opposed to Mitch Richmond whom he respected), and when I was younger, MJ's word meant alot more than it does today.

I want to say the fans appreciated him the most, especially for his memorable playoff exploits but then how do you explain them voting in the likes of BJ Armstrong ahead of him? Had Reggie grown up in the era where the 3pter is identified/quantified properly, he would have captured everyones attention, not to mention the media coverage is a tad different as well.

At some point that all changed, its like Reggie finally started drawing the respect he deserved when some 15 years later, he was still churning out 3's. That 2005 season when he kept a suspended/injured Pacers team in the playoffs with quite a few vintage performances will always hold a place in my book. I also got more into the APBR metrics and most of them value efficiency(cept for PER) and you look at the offensive success of his teams and the positive influence he had on his own teammates efficiency, and you realize how little scoring averages and assist numbers mean when you have all the rest going for you. Ideally you want your star to do everything but offensively, I cant hold much against him. Defensively, he was abit like AI /Rip in that he was better off defending smaller PG's but unlike AI, he was actually a great on-ball defender. When you're as frail as him, you're not going to deter many shots inside, you're not going to defend many positions and you're not gonna help on the boards, thats his greatest weakness and it was the absolute deciding factor in why his team didn't win a ring, particularly that G7 when MJ/Pip couldn't buy a bucket and still rebounded their way to respectable games.


Reggie had the talent around him to win, had he himself been great enough, but there is little shame in losing to the likes of MJ/Shaq/Kobe/Pippen. Those are guys I hold above him anyways, and its mostly for their defensive impact. I have him in that same tier with AI. I dont know why but I think its fitting that they are the 2 extreme ends of the efficiency vs usage spectrum. I feel like they each embody the spirit of that debate and should be held with equal respect.





I agree Dumars is a tad overrated. But he did have a solid four year stretch where he averaged basically 20 points and 4 assists with solid scoring efficiency and elite 3-point shooting to go along with being considered one of the best perimeter defenders in the sport. He might have just been a glorified 3 and D guy, but he was damn good at it and I just don't think the Pistons win a title, much less two titles, without him.

Whenever I find myself defending the best at their position with words like solid, I rethink things. The truth is, his usage-efficiency combo isn't up to sniff when compared to even guys well down the list. The truth is, he has the halo of a champion. His team doesn't win without multiple guys on that squad, thats why its such a TEAM accomplishment. I have him down to about 3rd on the order of importance list and even then I might be overrating him . Maybe we just think differently on the impact his perimeter defense had.

lakerfan85
03-10-2015, 04:05 PM
TMac raised his defense another level come playoffs, to a degree I dont recall from Drexler. Feel free to cite any instance, Tmac did this annually (Well, except when he missed the playoffs) so I can point out many matchups. Including some from the regular season. Because of the load he carried, Tmac only brought his A game defensively on select few nights, he was very similar to Kobe in that regard, key matchups piqued his interest. I have a game where he completely shuts down Pierce and Vince. Even Kobe once admitted his length bothering him defensively. GM's and Coaches alike raved about his defense/versatility. The guy had legit Pippen potential if he ever had the horses to help him offensively.

So he raised his level for one round of the playoffs and you consider this good??

ewing
03-10-2015, 04:08 PM
I didn't include Finely or Iggy, because I consider them small forwards rather than shooting guards. The other three guys would probably be in the same conversation as Terry in that 15-20 range, but I'd probably rank them 1. Terry, 2. Redd, 3. Richardson, 4. Stackhouse. I'm sure there are other guys who belong in his conversation, but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.


was trying to think who we are missing out on. Joe Johnson is definitely one. jeff hornacek another. If Spreewell is a 2 he is one too.

Chronz
03-10-2015, 04:10 PM
So he raised his level for one round of the playoffs and you consider this good??
Obviously. Why would I want a player to lessen his level of play?

Ohhhh, you're thinking Im the type of fan dumb enough to not know his history and not understand how much of a TEAM game this is huh.... oh in that case, so sorry... Gonna have to try alil harder to dismiss his greatness.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2015, 04:17 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Allen
Miller is really overrated around here


I disagree, i might overrated him a bit but overall he seems underrated in this thread IMO. He is better then anyone i have ever seen off the ball. that plus ruthless shooting, efficient scoring, leadership, team success without great talent, and an iconicly good playoff resume during his prime should count for something.

Miller is overrated. He is the definition of a player that fans have selective memories on. He had some huge shots he hit, people love to remember those, but in reality, the guy made 5 all star teams, and the all NBA 3rd team three times. He was basically one of the greatest one trick ponies in the game.

He is in the top 10 all time, but barely..

lakerfan85
03-10-2015, 04:20 PM
Obviously. Why would I want a player to lessen his level of play?

Ohhhh, you're thinking Im the type of fan dumb enough to not know his history and not understand how much of a TEAM game this is huh.... oh in that case, so sorry... Gonna have to try alil harder to dismiss his greatness.

At what point did I say you were dumb?? Go ahead and quote that part.. I also never said TMac wasn't great.. My point was more about your statement, but since you're obviously on your period and can't respond reasonably I won't dwell on it anymore

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 04:21 PM
was trying to think who we are missing out on. Joe Johnson is definitely one. jeff hornacek another. If Spreewell is a 2 he is one too.

Yeah, I'd probably rank Hornacek and JJ over Terry now that I think about it. Sprewell is another one of those SG or SF guys, but he also probably deserves to be ranked above Terry despite his really poor efficiency throughout his career.

ewing
03-10-2015, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE=ewing;29709025]

Miller is overrated. He is the definition of a player that fans have selective memories on. He had some huge shots he hit, people love to remember those, but in reality, the guy made 5 all star teams, and the all NBA 3rd team three times. He was basically one of the greatest one trick ponies in the game.

He is in the top 10 all time, but barely..


I thought an efficiency freak like you would appreciate Reggie little more. I think people remember more then some big shots. Reggie Miller was the #1 option for his team and the guy who drew most of the defensive attention for his team. he scored 20 a night over 144 playoff games including his twilight years with a TS% of over .60 and hit a TON of big shots. Fish hit some big shots, Reggie carried a load and then stuck a dagger in you. After reading people responses here i have moved to him below Dexler

ManningToTyree
03-10-2015, 04:35 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Allen
Miller is really overrated around here


I disagree, i might overrated him a bit but overall he seems underrated in this thread IMO. He is better then anyone i have ever seen off the ball. that plus ruthless shooting, efficient scoring, leadership, team success without great talent, and an iconicly good playoff resume during his prime should count for something. at the end of the day all he was was a scorer though. We can talk about team success but he never won. Underwhelming defense and rebounding idk. Few can shoot like reggie but give me say Ray Allen who was primarily a scorer but did other things and was a champion

ewing
03-10-2015, 04:52 PM
[QUOTE=ewing;29709025] at the end of the day all he was was a scorer though. We can talk about team success but he never won. Underwhelming defense and rebounding idk. Few can shoot like reggie but give me say Ray Allen who was primarily a scorer but did other things and was a champion


Miller was not a bad defender at all and I don't anyone is on this list b/c of there rebounding. I think the Davis boys handled that role and would have regardless of who was playing the 2. For Ray, he wasn't anything special with the ball either and piggy backed his way to a two rings while making one huge shot and being a very inconsistent shooter as a secondary option. Reggie could have chased rings as well and was a much better playoff performer.

Chronz
03-10-2015, 04:55 PM
At what point did I say you were dumb?? Go ahead and quote that part.. I also never said TMac wasn't great.. My point was more about your statement, but since you're obviously on your period and can't respond reasonably I won't dwell on it anymore

I know your point. It was as presumptive as mine. Only I still answered your Q.

cmellofan15
03-10-2015, 06:14 PM
i'm loving the michael redd praise here. he went to school right down the street from where i grew up at west high school and used to come back to the j. ashburn rec center every summer and ball with us...thats just a little side note though haha

ewing
03-10-2015, 06:31 PM
i'm loving the michael redd praise here. he went to school right down the street from where i grew up at west high school and used to come back to the j. ashburn rec center every summer and ball with us...thats just a little side note though haha


very cool. Micheal Redd could flat ball. I remember just watching Tim Thomas in HS and being totally blown away.

IndyRealist
03-10-2015, 07:00 PM
[QUOTE=ewing;29709025] at the end of the day all he was was a scorer though. We can talk about team success but he never won. Underwhelming defense and rebounding idk. Few can shoot like reggie but give me say Ray Allen who was primarily a scorer but did other things and was a champion

Reggie was just a scorer like Kevin Durant is just a scorer. Go back and watch 90's Pacers games, and not just the playoff highlights. The guy was the #1 option on a team that went to the Finals, and took the juggernaut Kobe/Shaq Lakers to 6 games in 2000. If Rik Smits didn't retire, that team might have won a ring.

He was insanely efficient on a high volume, on the #1 rated offense in the league. People don't realize that because they played such a slow pace, and people still quoted PPG then.

And while everyone knows how hard he worked off the ball and how he hit daggers whenever he got a sliver of daylight, what people don't realize is that he iso'd. A lot. He used pump fakes, single dribble pull up jumpers, and step back fadeaways better than anyone I've seen. And he posted up. A lot. And he got to the rim. A lot. He probably hit as many layups as he did long 2s.

While he may be overrated by some,

IKnowHoops
03-10-2015, 07:01 PM
Peak

Jordan
TMac
Wade
Kobe
Iverson

Career

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Tmac
Iverson

HeatFan
03-10-2015, 07:05 PM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Tracy McGrady

After that, I'd probably go something like this:
6. Ray Allen
7. Allen Iverson
8. Reggie Miller
9. Vince Carter
10. Manu Ginobili

Just outside the top 10:
11. Joe Dumars
12. Mitch Richmond
13. James Harden
14. Brandon Roy
15. Jason Terry

I was trying to stick to players who peaked in the late 80s or later, so I kept Alvin Robertson off the list. But if I had placed him on the list, he would probably end up around 14th or 15th.

Jason Terry has been good for a while but a few other guys I think I would put ahead of him in your top 15: Jeff Hornacek, Ron Harper - statistically splitting hairs. Harper did have a few very low statistical years with the Bulls but was a very important piece of those teams. Heck even John Starks if you're going with Sixth Man type players.

HeatFan
03-10-2015, 07:07 PM
I didn't include Finely or Iggy, because I consider them small forwards rather than shooting guards. The other three guys would probably be in the same conversation as Terry in that 15-20 range, but I'd probably rank them 1. Terry, 2. Redd, 3. Richardson, 4. Stackhouse. I'm sure there are other guys who belong in his conversation, but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.

Two other guys that came to mind in that Terry conversation: Eddie Jones and Latrell Sprewell. Prefer Eddie Jones though!!

IKnowHoops
03-10-2015, 07:17 PM
Guys I take over Reggie Miller besides my top 5.

Ray Allen
Vince Carter
James Harden
Clyde Drexler

I'd also take Peak Latrell Sprewell, Brandon Roy and Penny Hardaway over Peak Reggie.

I thought Vince and Tmac were SF

ewing
03-10-2015, 07:19 PM
[QUOTE=ManningToTyree;29710134]

Reggie was just a scorer like Kevin Durant is just a scorer. Go back and watch 90's Pacers games, and not just the playoff highlights. The guy was the #1 option on a team that went to the Finals, and took the juggernaut Kobe/Shaq Lakers to 6 games in 2000. If Rik Smits didn't retire, that team might have won a ring.

He was insanely efficient on a high volume, on the #1 rated offense in the league. People don't realize that because they played such a slow pace, and people still quoted PPG then.

And while everyone knows how hard he worked off the ball and how he hit daggers whenever he got a sliver of daylight, what people don't realize is that he iso'd. A lot. He used pump fakes, single dribble pull up jumpers, and step back fadeaways better than anyone I've seen. And he posted up. A lot. And he got to the rim. A lot. He probably hit as many layups as he did long 2s.

While he may be overrated by some,


Reggie did a ton of work off the ball. You are right he also used fakes and escape dribbles etc. Dude got to the line a ton (a lot of it from flopping but a lot from fakes and b/c you needed grab hold- he needed no room and ran you into the ground). I think what you mentioned about pace matters too. Reggie, didn't do it for a team that spread the floor and ran the ball. He found those Js and scored with that efficiency next to the davis boys grinding out a super physical slow paced game. He also got Rick and those davis boys each a bucket backdoor at least once a game running baseline with and dragging multiple defenders with him.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2015, 07:21 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;29709762]


I thought an efficiency freak like you would appreciate Reggie little more. I think people remember more then some big shots. Reggie Miller was the #1 option for his team and the guy who drew most of the defensive attention for his team. he scored 20 a night over 144 playoff games including his twilight years with a TS% of over .60 and hit a TON of big shots. Fish hit some big shots, Reggie carried a load and then stuck a dagger in you. After reading people responses here i have moved to him below Dexler


I do appreciate his scoring efficiency. He was great at moving without the ball, but remember, he had beasts setting picks, and a top 5 assist man ever throwing him that ball. Defensively, he was alright, his frame obviously made it easy to take advantage of him, and crushed any potential for a rebound rate.

I just think he is one of the top "selective memory" players ever. His MSG heroics, and big shots is what people love to remember. Not that he had major flaws in his overall game.

He is going to go down as one of the most elite distance shooting perimeter players ever. But when you look at his numbers, success, accolades, awards, and everything else, it's not a great case for a top 20-30 player of all time.

ewing
03-10-2015, 07:32 PM
[QUOTE=ewing;29710124]


I do appreciate his scoring efficiency. He was great at moving without the ball, but remember, he had beasts setting picks, and a top 5 assist man ever throwing him that ball. Defensively, he was alright, his frame obviously made it easy to take advantage of him, and crushed any potential for a rebound rate.

I just think he is one of the top "selective memory" players ever. His MSG heroics, and big shots is what people love to remember. Not that he had major flaws in his overall game.

He is going to go down as one of the most elite distance shooting perimeter players ever. But when you look at his numbers, success, accolades, awards, and everything else, it's not a great case for a top 20-30 player of all time.

you just dont like east coast basketball :). yeah he had some big boys setting picks for him but he also got next to nothing in transition for same reason and was face guarded all the time- wasn't no one leaving reggie. He did play with Mark Jackson- which is blessing to any player wanting buckets- but that was hardly only PG he performed with. I was a shooter and that grind it out beat the **** out of each other style the pacers played would not be the style picked to find jump shots. I'd like to be on one of those sissy WC teams where i run to spots, lose to Jordan like everyone else, and get a pass for it.

J_M_B
03-10-2015, 07:39 PM
1. Jordan

2. Kobe
3. Wade
Tougher than most would think. Kobe has all the accolades and obviously his longevity is huge here, but Wade at the peak of his powers was such a demon on both ends and probably the closest things we've seen to Jordan. Gun to my head, I'll take 2009 Wade over any Kobe season, but since this is an all time ranking Kobe gets the nod and deservingly so.
4. Drexler
5. McGrady

HeatFan
03-10-2015, 07:57 PM
1. Jordan

2. Kobe
3. Wade
Tougher than most would think. Kobe has all the accolades and obviously his longevity is huge here, but Wade at the peak of his powers was such a demon on both ends and probably the closest things we've seen to Jordan. Gun to my head, I'll take 2009 Wade over any Kobe season, but since this is an all time ranking Kobe gets the nod and deservingly so.
4. Drexler
5. McGrady

Well said. I agree. Wade was a beast but Kobe has accomplished way more. Kobe's style of play does allow him to maintain a higher level of play longer (better shooter from distance and fade away shot). Wade is more of a quickness and athletic reliant player, which he obviously can't do as well now even though he is not as old as Kobe. But to your point about accolades, don't you think that would put someone like Manu over T-mac? (I understand T-mac was an incredible talent, but not much to show for it).

mightybosstone
03-10-2015, 10:49 PM
Jason Terry has been good for a while but a few other guys I think I would put ahead of him in your top 15: Jeff Hornacek, Ron Harper - statistically splitting hairs. Harper did have a few very low statistical years with the Bulls but was a very important piece of those teams. Heck even John Starks if you're going with Sixth Man type players.


Two other guys that came to mind in that Terry conversation: Eddie Jones and Latrell Sprewell. Prefer Eddie Jones though!!

Somebody had brought up Hornacek earlier, and I would definitely rank him ahead of Terry. I was just trying to think of guys from the last 20 years to fit into those last few spots, but I was drawing a blank. Harper, Jones and Sprewell are also excellent candidates I would likely rank over Terry as well as Redd. If I had time to really sit down and come up with a top 25, I actually don't think in hindsight that Terry would even crack the top 20. Of all those guys, I'd probably put Jones or Redd in that 15th spot behind Roy.

You forget how deep that position has been at times over the last 25-30 years, but there were so many great shooting guards that it's hard to remember them all. Some other really good shooting guards from that timespan I forgot about include: Steve Smith, Dan Majerle, Ricky Pierce, Drazen Petrovic and Jeff Malone.

ewing
03-10-2015, 11:02 PM
Somebody had brought up Hornacek earlier, and I would definitely rank him ahead of Terry. I was just trying to think of guys from the last 20 years to fit into those last few spots, but I was drawing a blank. Harper, Jones and Sprewell are also excellent candidates I would likely rank over Terry as well as Redd. If I had time to really sit down and come up with a top 25, I actually don't think in hindsight that Terry would even crack the top 20. Of all those guys, I'd probably put Jones or Redd in that 15th spot behind Roy.

You forget how deep that position has been at times over the last 25-30 years, but there were so many great shooting guards that it's hard to remember them all. Some other really good shooting guards from that timespan I forgot about include: Steve Smith, Dan Majerle, Ricky Pierce, Drazen Petrovic and Jeff Malone.


I loved Steve Smith. Dude made Ted Turner give him every of Sanford and Son when he signed with the Hawks. Ricky Pierce was also a scoring machine. never understood why he wasn't bigger deal.

PowerHouse
03-10-2015, 11:39 PM
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Glyde
4. Wade
5. Ray Allen


6. T-mac (being nice here because his longevity was dismal but his amazing prime pushes him up the list)
7. Vince

HeatFan
03-10-2015, 11:54 PM
Somebody had brought up Hornacek earlier, and I would definitely rank him ahead of Terry. I was just trying to think of guys from the last 20 years to fit into those last few spots, but I was drawing a blank. Harper, Jones and Sprewell are also excellent candidates I would likely rank over Terry as well as Redd. If I had time to really sit down and come up with a top 25, I actually don't think in hindsight that Terry would even crack the top 20. Of all those guys, I'd probably put Jones or Redd in that 15th spot behind Roy.

You forget how deep that position has been at times over the last 25-30 years, but there were so many great shooting guards that it's hard to remember them all. Some other really good shooting guards from that timespan I forgot about include: Steve Smith, Dan Majerle, Ricky Pierce, Drazen Petrovic and Jeff Malone.

As a Heat Fan I like Steve Smith a lot. Didn't think of him. Thought about Majerle and then saw career stats. Terry was a bit better.

tredigs
03-11-2015, 12:01 AM
I don't know what the OP is asking exactly (in terms of how we're ranking them), so I'll make up my own criteria. If I could sign any SG from '92 on to a 5 year max contract in their prime in order to win a title, I would choose:

1: MJ
-
2: Wade
3: Kobe
4: T-Mac
5: Drexler

If it's 10 years, flip Wade/Kobe, move Drexler up 1 and switch T-Mac with Ray.

mightybosstone
03-11-2015, 12:23 AM
As a Heat Fan I like Steve Smith a lot. Didn't think of him. Thought about Majerle and then saw career stats. Terry was a bit better.
Offensively, yes, but Majerle was one of the better perimeter defenders of his era. He was a much better two-way player than Terry, and he managed to crack three All-Star teams, something Terry never achieved once.

Bostonjorge
03-11-2015, 01:29 AM
Couple guys I didn't see so far.

Allen Houston
John Starks
Dan Majerle
Eddie jones
Jim Jackson
Nick Anderson
Monta Ellis
Captain jack
Rip Hamilton
Ben Gordon

tredigs
03-11-2015, 01:43 AM
Couple guys I didn't see so far.

Allen Houston
John Starks
Dan Majerle
Eddie jones
Jim Jackson
Nick Anderson
Monta Ellis
Captain jack
Rip Hamilton
Ben Gordon
This is a top 5 list, right? ... good reason none of them are mentioned.

lol, please
03-11-2015, 02:48 AM
Couple guys I didn't see so far.


Monta Ellis


:clap:

cmellofan15
03-11-2015, 11:02 AM
very cool. Micheal Redd could flat ball. I remember just watching Tim Thomas in HS and being totally blown away.

tim thomas was ****ing huge haha was he that big in hs?

ewing
03-11-2015, 11:06 AM
tim thomas was ****ing huge haha was he that big in hs?


yes. that dude was as good his senior year at Patterson Catholic as he ever was.

Hawkeye15
03-11-2015, 11:13 AM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;29712115]

you just dont like east coast basketball :). yeah he had some big boys setting picks for him but he also got next to nothing in transition for same reason and was face guarded all the time- wasn't no one leaving reggie. He did play with Mark Jackson- which is blessing to any player wanting buckets- but that was hardly only PG he performed with. I was a shooter and that grind it out beat the **** out of each other style the pacers played would not be the style picked to find jump shots. I'd like to be on one of those sissy WC teams where i run to spots, lose to Jordan like everyone else, and get a pass for it.

Like I said, Reggie was great at what he was great at, moving well without the ball, and the catch and shoot. And he had ice water in his veins. But he just wasn't a complete player by any means.

In another thread, I did say I would take Reggie over AI if I am putting a roster together, even though AI, because of all his hardware, is probably rated higher as a player by the masses.

I just can't put him ahead of a handful of other guys you had him up over.

Hawkeye15
03-11-2015, 11:18 AM
I loved Steve Smith. Dude made Ted Turner give him every of Sanford and Son when he signed with the Hawks. Ricky Pierce was also a scoring machine. never understood why he wasn't bigger deal.

6th man players never got the recognition they deserved in the olden days dude.

Hawkeye15
03-11-2015, 11:19 AM
Couple guys I didn't see so far.

Allen Houston
John Starks
Dan Majerle
Eddie jones
Jim Jackson
Nick Anderson
Monta Ellis
Captain jack
Rip Hamilton
Ben Gordon

Iowa used to have a guy name Chris Kingsbury that had deeper range than Thunder Dan, I kid you not.

ewing
03-11-2015, 11:25 AM
Iowa used to have a guy name Chris Kingsbury that had deeper range than Thunder Dan, I kid you not.

I remember him. The guy that testified against Jason Williams when he shot his driver was from my area and he used to shoot from like 1/2 court in HS. Sent James Madison to the NCAA tournament once.

Hawkeye15
03-11-2015, 11:28 AM
I remember him. The guys that testified against Jason Williams when he shot his driver was from my area and he used to shoot from like 1/2 court in HS. Sent James Madison to the NCAA tournament once.

the only footage I can find for Kingsbury is when he lit up Ray Allen's Huskies for 28 in the 2nd half, at UCONN, and was just hitting bombs from 9 feet behind the 3 point line on the catch like it was a jumper in motion.

He hit one with 17 seconds to go on the shot clock at Minnesota when I was there, from the jump ball circle. Imagine having the green light to take a 30 footer anytime you wish haha

ewing
03-11-2015, 11:35 AM
the only footage I can find for Kingsbury is when he lit up Ray Allen's Huskies for 28 in the 2nd half, at UCONN, and was just hitting bombs from 9 feet behind the 3 point line on the catch like it was a jumper in motion.

He hit one with 17 seconds to go on the shot clock at Minnesota when I was there, from the jump ball circle. Imagine having the green light to take a 30 footer anytime you wish haha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UStuRYHKFmY

I probably know the guy who calls him a punk in comments