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Goose17
03-07-2015, 12:38 PM
Who you got?


These are how I rank the top 5 candidates (disclaimer; I tried to stick with guys who have played like 50 games or more, ish) and please remember this is subjective, and entirely my personal opinion;

1. Draymond Green
2. Tim Duncan
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Khris Middleton
5. Tony Allen (yes, despite his limited minutes) OR Anthony Davis (he's not quite there yet imo)

Method28
03-07-2015, 12:51 PM
DeAndre Jordan is a strong candidate

Goose17
03-07-2015, 12:53 PM
DeAndre Jordan is a strong candidate

I think he has great instincts as a shot blocker and the ability to become a consistent high caliber defender, But I'm not convinced that alone makes him a DPOY candidate personally. I don't think he's there yet.

Method28
03-07-2015, 12:55 PM
I feel he's become a better on ball defender than he used to be. His help defense has been huge. His rebounding ability is obviously amazing. While its debatable whether that should count towards this award, it generally has helped in the past.

beasted86
03-07-2015, 01:04 PM
Shame where the league is at where guys like Joakim Noah, Tyson Chandler, and now Draymond Green are DPOY winners. It disgusts me, honestly.

You had guys like Pippen, Rodman, go their whole career without one DPOY. That tells you the defensive talent disparity between the 90s and today.

Nighthawk
03-07-2015, 01:04 PM
Dwight Howard? Ibaka? bogut?

Green will most likely win it. His versatility is amazing. From pgs to C, defends it all. Hes going to get paid this off season.

kingsdelez24
03-07-2015, 01:09 PM
Denadre Jordan is an awful 1-1 defender i the post, Cousins eats him alive in every matchup

Goose17
03-07-2015, 01:13 PM
Shame where the league is at where guys like Joakim Noah, Tyson Chandler, and now Draymond Green are DPOY winners. It disgusts me, honestly.

You had guys like Pippen, Rodman, go their whole career without one DPOY. That tells you the defensive talent disparity between the 90s and today.

Huh? Rodman won DPOY a couple of times.

And I fail to see how this shows any disparity. The 90s was a freak decade for elite defensive talent. Olajuwon, Mutombo, Rodman and Payton made up about 8 of the 10 DPOY awards in the 90s. People were just unlucky to be in the league at around the same time as four guys who were arguably top 5 defenders of their position ALL TIME.

It's like saying "Wade winning a title when guys like Miller and Stockton never won a chip just goes to show the disparity"... NAH, the latter two were just unlucky to be in the league at the same time as Jordan.

Goose17
03-07-2015, 01:14 PM
Dwight Howard? Ibaka? bogut?

Green will most likely win it. His versatility is amazing. From pgs to C, defends it all. Hes going to get paid this off season.

I didn't mention Dwight due to his slight regression plus the injuries. I didn't mention Bogut because he's played <50 games

Ibaka is an interesting one.

lakerfan85
03-07-2015, 01:16 PM
Shame where the league is at where guys like Joakim Noah, Tyson Chandler, and now Draymond Green are DPOY winners. It disgusts me, honestly.

You had guys like Pippen, Rodman, go their whole career without one DPOY. That tells you the defensive talent disparity between the 90s and today.

Rodman won it twice..

flea
03-07-2015, 01:16 PM
Duncan is still the best, and it's an utter joke he's never gotten a DPOY considering he's probably the had the best defensive career ever. These go to storyline usually, so Green. For me it's Duncan, Green, Gasol, Ibaka, and then the part timers Bogut and Allen.

Gobert and Davis are no where close to this list unless you're just a box score fanatic.

tredigs
03-07-2015, 01:21 PM
Duncan's too limited these days to be #1 imo. Still an elite defender, but he's not ideal in a switch, he's just amazing at limiting high quality attempts in the post (something Gobert is doing as well along with smashing the slashers, box-score #'s or not). Dray probably is the DPOY, we haven't seen a more versatile +defender at all 5 positions in a very long time. Which is funny, because in some regards you could say he's the Warriors 3rd best defender.

Goose17
03-07-2015, 01:24 PM
Duncan is still the best, and it's an utter joke he's never gotten a DPOY considering he's probably the had the best defensive career ever. These go to storyline usually, so Green. For me it's Duncan, Green, Gasol, Ibaka, and then the part timers Bogut and Allen.

Gobert and Davis are no where close to this list unless you're just a box score fanatic.

Gobert definitely is. I would like to see an argument against it. Unless it's because of his limited minutes earlier in the year? Bare in mind Utah were 27th in the league in per-possession defense, then Gobert got more minutes and he almost single-handedly took them to the 6th best defense. They're actually the best defense per possession since February, small sample size but impressive none the less. He's an incredible rim protector imo. Out of players who have played 50 games or more he's #1 for his position in DRPM he definitely deserves some recognition.

beasted86
03-07-2015, 01:33 PM
Huh? Rodman won DPOY a couple of times.

And I fail to see how this shows any disparity. The 90s was a freak decade for elite defensive talent. Olajuwon, Mutombo, Rodman and Payton made up about 8 of the 10 DPOY awards in the 90s. People were just unlucky to be in the league at around the same time as four guys who were arguably top 5 defenders of their position ALL TIME.

It's like saying "Wade winning a title when guys like Miller and Stockton never won a chip just goes to show the disparity"... NAH, the latter two were just unlucky to be in the league at the same time as Jordan.


Rodman won it twice..

You guys are right about Rodman, my total lapse.

But it's a shame where defense has gone nonetheless. Everything is a focus on collective team systems from the junior high level up now. The individual recognition is almost unneeded at this point. The team should get the award.

Goose17
03-07-2015, 01:45 PM
You guys are right about Rodman, my total lapse.

But it's a shame where defense has gone nonetheless. Everything is a focus on collective team systems from the junior high level up now. The individual recognition is almost unneeded at this point. The team should get the award.

Ah. I see what you mean. Well there was no zone defense in the 90s (in the nba).

I get your point about team defense but there's usually a catalyst or some sort of "key" to that defense. I mean for the Warriors "switch everything" defense. We wouldn't be able to do that nearly as effectively without Green, because he's capable of guarding almost any position (depending on who's on the floor).

rhino17
03-07-2015, 01:51 PM
Denadre Jordan is an awful 1-1 defender i the post, Cousins eats him alive in every matchup

That hasn't stopped guys like him from winning in the past.

Honestly, Dwight has never been a very good 1 on 1 defender, the only legit center in the league back then (Yao) routinely whooped his ***. The voters pretty much look at blocks and rebounds and often disregard legit man to man defense

I would put my money on deandre winning it

Htownballa1622
03-07-2015, 01:58 PM
Draymond Green. He contests everything and he can guard from small to big. He is great.

kdspurman
03-07-2015, 02:02 PM
Duncan is still the best, and it's an utter joke he's never gotten a DPOY considering he's probably the had the best defensive career ever. These go to storyline usually, so Green. For me it's Duncan, Green, Gasol, Ibaka, and then the part timers Bogut and Allen.

Gobert and Davis are no where close to this list unless you're just a box score fanatic.

I agree with your order. Duncan kept the Spurs respectable defensively while Kawhi/Splitter missed significant time. but yea, it'll probably go to Green

Chronz
03-07-2015, 02:18 PM
Why would TA be above Gasol?

Why Middleton? Is he really that good?

Gobert plays way too little to be deserving

Chronz
03-07-2015, 02:22 PM
Duncan
Green


Struggling to think of anyone that really stands out given most of the best defenders have either been in decline, injured, or barely playing.

dhopisthename
03-07-2015, 02:24 PM
Duncan is still the best, and it's an utter joke he's never gotten a DPOY considering he's probably the had the best defensive career ever. These go to storyline usually, so Green. For me it's Duncan, Green, Gasol, Ibaka, and then the part timers Bogut and Allen.

Gobert and Davis are no where close to this list unless you're just a box score fanatic.

you can easily make an argument against gobert because of his limited playing time, but not against his production. he has been an elite rim protector and has help make the jazz an awesome defensive team.

Chronz
03-07-2015, 02:29 PM
I didn't mention Dwight due to his slight regression plus the injuries. I didn't mention Bogut because he's played <50 games

Ibaka is an interesting one.

Injuries yes, but regression? This is the best D he has played in years, at least when hes on the court.

D-Leethal
03-07-2015, 04:02 PM
I feel like DPOY more than any other award is weighed heavily using analytical "on floor/off floor" statistics and overall defensive impact + team defensive ranking. I think Green fits the bill if we're looking back at precedent.

Chronz
03-07-2015, 04:08 PM
I feel like DPOY more than any other award is weighed heavily using analytical "on floor/off floor" statistics and overall defensive impact + team defensive ranking. I think Green fits the bill if we're looking back at precedent.

For the most part, I agree. Which has its ups and downs, but overall, its better than the days when we went off blks/steals+rebounds (even offensive ones).

SPURSFAN1
03-07-2015, 04:08 PM
Kawhi best defender in the league.

D-Leethal
03-07-2015, 04:15 PM
For the most part, I agree. Which has its ups and downs, but overall, its better than the days when we went off blks/steals+rebounds (even offensive ones).

Not sure Noah fits the bill last year, he might just haven't checked, but I know the Tyson - Gasol DPOY's were attributed heavily to their impact on/off the court and the Knicks somehow were 3rd in DRTG that season while Memphis was 1st the following.

Goose17
03-07-2015, 04:26 PM
Why would TA be above Gasol?


Because he's a better defender this season? Gasol is still playing sort of well defensively but IMO he's not nearly as integral to the teams defense as he has been in previous seasons. Allen is a beast defensively, there's only four players in the entire league with a better DRPM. Gasol isn't even in the top 40 for DRPM this season. In fact he's had a massive drop. Last season his defensive RPM was 5.23 which would be good for 2nd in the league this season, but unfortunately this season his DRPM is 1.93. He's not even top 10 in his position. Obviously this is just one stat, I still think he's a great defender despite what the numbers say, I just think that this season Allen has been better. The only knock on Allen is his limited minutes and he's missed a few games.




Why Middleton? Is he really that good?


Yes. He's having a criminally underrated year defensively imo. His on/off numbers are insane. With him on the floor the Bucks have a top 5 defense in the league then have bang on the league average when he's off the floor. They allow 99 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor and then 109 points per 100 with him off the floor. In fact the opponent is literally worse in every facet of the game when he is on the floor, they turn the ball over more, shoot worse from everywhere on the court, get less free throws, get less assists and commit more fouls.

To top it all of, Middleton is 9th in the league overall for DRPM. He's actually 1st for all SGs. I haven't checked to see where he played most of his minutes though, he's a wing by trade but I've seen him play some 4 in bursts.

But that's just the stats. Watch the kid defend the pick and roll in their next game, they switch a lot and have a lot of length which suits him well so maybe it's the system. But He plays guys brilliantly in PnR situations, dude has a crazy wing span and is light on his feet so he guards 1 through 4 comfortably. He's also very quick at recovering. His footwork one on one isn't amazing but it's still good.

I really like the kid though so maybe I'm a little biased.






Gobert plays way too little to be deserving

See my previous post.

Goose17
03-07-2015, 04:32 PM
Khris Middleton will be sought after, he improved his stroke between his rookie year and now, he's a great defender and he can play 2,3 or even an undersized stretch 4 in some lineups. Best part is he can defend all of those positions.

D-Leethal
03-07-2015, 04:34 PM
Khris Middleton will be sought after, he improved his stroke between his rookie year and now, he's a great defender and he can play 2,3 or even an undersized stretch 4 in some lineups. Best part is he can defend all of those positions.

Most of the Knick fans in our forum are hoping we throw 12-14M his way and the Bucks don't match. He seems to be a stud that nobody is talking about. Can shoot the **** out of the ball too.

Goose17
03-07-2015, 04:38 PM
Most of the Knick fans in our forum are hoping we throw 12-14M his way and the Bucks don't match. He seems to be a stud that nobody is talking about. Can shoot the **** out of the ball too.

Yep. I think someone is going to pay him, if he wasn't in Milwaukee he would be getting way more attention imo. He's a very solid player, can shoot and defend at a high level, still young, high potential, coachable.

I was sort of hoping Golden State would grab him, chances are we'll be moving Lee in the offseason IMO. Only way you get someone to take on his salary is by sending draft picks (of which we have few) or giving them a young talent. So I think Barnes is going to be moved. Middleton would have been the PERFECT replacement.

mightybosstone
03-07-2015, 04:40 PM
No love for Gasol? Memphis is still arguably the best defense team in the league, and the guy has played 61 games this season. He's absolutely going to get some votes this year, and I wouldn't be shocked to see him win the award again.

valade16
03-07-2015, 04:49 PM
Duncan is still the best, and it's an utter joke he's never gotten a DPOY considering he's
probably the had the best defensive career ever. These go to storyline usually, so Green. For me it's Duncan, Green, Gasol, Ibaka, and then the part timers Bogut and Allen.

Gobert and Davis are no where close to this list unless you're just a box score fanatic.

Not saying I disagree but are you saying Duncan is the greatest defender ever? Do you think his defensive career surpasses that of say Mutombo or Ben Wallace? Or Hakeem, Kareem, Russell (or any of the other top tier C's you can think of).

Goose17
03-07-2015, 05:00 PM
No love for Gasol? Memphis is still arguably the best defense team in the league, and the guy has played 61 games this season. He's absolutely going to get some votes this year, and I wouldn't be shocked to see him win the award again.

My reasoning;



Because he's a better defender this season? Gasol is still playing sort of well defensively but IMO he's not nearly as integral to the teams defense as he has been in previous seasons. Allen is a beast defensively, there's only four players in the entire league with a better DRPM. Gasol isn't even in the top 40 for DRPM this season. In fact he's had a massive drop. Last season his defensive RPM was 5.23 which would be good for 2nd in the league this season, but unfortunately this season his DRPM is 1.93. He's not even top 10 in his position. Obviously this is just one stat, I still think he's a great defender despite what the numbers say, I just think that this season Allen has been better. The only knock on Allen is his limited minutes and he's missed a few games.




Yes. He's having a criminally underrated year defensively imo. His on/off numbers are insane. With him on the floor the Bucks have a top 5 defense in the league then have bang on the league average when he's off the floor. They allow 99 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor and then 109 points per 100 with him off the floor. In fact the opponent is literally worse in every facet of the game when he is on the floor, they turn the ball over more, shoot worse from everywhere on the court, get less free throws, get less assists and commit more fouls.

To top it all of, Middleton is 9th in the league overall for DRPM. He's actually 1st for all SGs. I haven't checked to see where he played most of his minutes though, he's a wing by trade but I've seen him play some 4 in bursts.

But that's just the stats. Watch the kid defend the pick and roll in their next game, they switch a lot and have a lot of length which suits him well so maybe it's the system. But He plays guys brilliantly in PnR situations, dude has a crazy wing span and is light on his feet so he guards 1 through 4 comfortably. He's also very quick at recovering. His footwork one on one isn't amazing but it's still good.

I really like the kid though so maybe I'm a little biased.






See my previous post.

tredigs
03-07-2015, 05:11 PM
No love for Gasol? Memphis is still arguably the best defense team in the league, and the guy has played 61 games this season. He's absolutely going to get some votes this year, and I wouldn't be shocked to see him win the award again.

Memphis's D hasn't been top 5 for a couple years now. It's very solid, but far from the best.

mightybosstone
03-07-2015, 05:18 PM
Memphis's D hasn't been top 5 for a couple years now. It's very solid, but far from the best.

They're top 10 in most defensive categories and first in points allowed. I'm not saying I would call them the league's best defense, but there's a halfway decent argument to be made there. And Gasol is having one of those seasons where he's playing well enough to be in the MVP discussion, but he has no real chance at winning it. And when you couple that with Memphis being the third best team in the NBA and Gasol being the best player on that team, I can easily see him winning this award.

I think DPOY has gotten to the point where you could put 10 guys' names on a dart board, close your eyes and randomly throw a dart to select a winner, and few people would be upset by any of those guys winning. Voters are going to look for any edge they can to pick one guy over the other and Gasol has a lot of advantages that could earn him another win.

tredigs
03-07-2015, 05:29 PM
They're top 10 in most defensive categories and first in points allowed. I'm not saying I would call them the league's best defense, but there's a halfway decent argument to be made there. And Gasol is having one of those seasons where he's playing well enough to be in the MVP discussion, but he has no real chance at winning it. And when you couple that with Memphis being the third best team in the NBA and Gasol being the best player on that team, I can easily see him winning this award.

I think DPOY has gotten to the point where you could put 10 guys' names on a dart board, close your eyes and randomly throw a dart to select a winner, and few people would be upset by any of those guys winning. Voters are going to look for any edge they can to pick one guy over the other and Gasol has a lot of advantages that could earn him another win.

There's really zero argument for them as the leagues best D though. Points allowed means nothing without adjusting for pace, and they run one of the leagues slowest paces. Still, Marc's a great defender and he'll get his votes. So will Deandre Jordan. An athletic big who leads the league in rebounding and gets a good amount of blocks is in the race by default, especially since Doc is pushing it in the media.

Nobody's really getting a lot of buzz in the media DPOY wise, so it probably is a toss up for who actually wins.

flea
03-07-2015, 05:49 PM
Memphis's D hasn't been top 5 for a couple years now. It's very solid, but far from the best.

By what metric? Adjusted defensive efficiency has them ranked (in reverse order starting this season and ending in the 10/11 season) 4-6-1-5-8. That's about as good as it gets and definitely a top 5. They've had moving parts this season and their best perimeter guy out and they're still top 5. Gasol's impact is bigger than his +/- metrics indicate because of how solid his backup is (and the backup smalls are) defensively.


Not saying I disagree but are you saying Duncan is the greatest defender ever? Do you think his defensive career surpasses that of say Mutombo or Ben Wallace? Or Hakeem, Kareem, Russell (or any of the other top tier C's you can think of).

IMO, yes. If you really wanted to push Hakeem or Mutumbo I could maybe see argument (moreso for Hakeem) but I think Duncan has been better for longer. And I mean that independent of era. Considering he's played almost entirely in the zone defense era (where, IMO, bigs are way more important to a defensive scheme) I'd say he's definitely more impactful too. It's a lot easier to scheme away from dominant bigs offensively in the illegal defense era. Now, the only way to do it is the way you do it in college (shoot your way out of it or win on the offensive boards). Both of those things are really hard to do in the NBA on a consistent basis - and that's why Duncan's defenses are so damn good.

Here is how his defenses rank in adjusted efficiency starting with his 97/98 rookie season and ending this year: 2, 1 (ring), 2, 2, 1, 3 (ring), 1, 1 (ring), 1, 1 (ring), 6, 5, 6, 10, 10, 3, 3 (ring), 3. I mean, he never had a defense not ranked 1 or 2 until he was 31 except once (when he bullied his way almost by himself through the playoffs and won a ring with a 3rd ranked d). It took giving major rotation minutes to a 30+ Richard Jefferson and Dejuan Blair for him to have even 10th ranked defenses. Did he have good teammates? Some, but he mostly had solid teammates. Bowen and old Robinson were nice early, and Leonard/Green have been good the last 3 years but a lot of teams have solid defensive wings and it takes teammates contributing to have defenses that good. He was the lynchpin though.

As for Wallace, don't make me laugh. His Pistons played in a weaker conference and they never put up a better adjusted defensive efficiency than the Spurs. That's while assuming Billups, Rasheed, and Tayshaun are anything close to what Duncan was working with in the mid-200s (Parker=lol, Ginobili is smart and solid but he's nothing special, Bowen was over the hill already in 2003, and Barry/Horry were there for one reason only and it wasn't d). If you're going to have an argument against Duncan your teams should at least equal his once - Wallace's never did.

ManRam
03-07-2015, 06:03 PM
Why Middleton? Is he really that good?

Yes

tredigs
03-07-2015, 06:33 PM
By what metric? Adjusted defensive efficiency has them ranked (in reverse order starting this season and ending in the 10/11 season) 4-6-1-5-8. That's about as good as it gets and definitely a top 5. They've had moving parts this season and their best perimeter guy out and they're still top 5. Gasol's impact is bigger than his +/- metrics indicate because of how solid his backup is (and the backup smalls are) defensively.


Concerning Marc, RPM does attempt to adjust for backups, teammates and opponents and somehow it doesn't even rank him in the top 15 centers defensively this season (last season he was #1), let alone DPOY level. Defensive BPM is nicer on him and ranks him as the #4 defensive center. SportsVU has opponents attacking the rim about ~8 times a game on him at a 49% clip, which is slightly better than par for the course (Gobert and Bogut lead the way with about 7 rim attempts on them at ~39/40% clip, D. Howard + AD hold opponents to ~45%, there's Deandre Jordan with M. Gasol and Horford at around 50%, then guys like Dieng/Vuv/Kanter coming in last around 54%+ on them).

Team wise, I have the Grizz D efficiency at 7th last year and 6-8 this year depending on where you look and how you rate them. That's not arguably #1, and by definition not top 5 either. What they did 3+ years ago is irrelevant, or at least should be.

Sadds The Gr8
03-08-2015, 12:27 AM
Draymond. I fully expect deandre to win though because of the public support...

SeoulBeatz
03-08-2015, 12:44 AM
Draymond Green.

People saying Gobert are going overboard. He's made a fantastic impact on the Jazz's defense but that was towards the middle of the season, and while he will be a future DPOY candidate he came on a little too late.

Draymond guards multiple positions on the best team in the west, and his impact is immeasurable for a team that's made significant defensive strides this season.

He deserves the recognition.

Ariza's Better
03-08-2015, 08:04 AM
I don't know why but this award and the 6th man of the year award seem weak to me this year. There is no candidate that screams they should win this award unlike previous seasons. If I had to name my top 3 I would pick Green, Jordan and Gobert.

Goose17
03-08-2015, 08:41 AM
I don't know why but this award and the 6th man of the year award seem weak to me this year. There is no candidate that screams they should win this award unlike previous seasons. If I had to name my top 3 I would pick Green, Jordan and Gobert.

I don't think "weak" is the word I would use to describe it but I know what you mean. There's no clear winner, it's completely open. Nobody has stood out, but I think it's because there's so many good candidates instead of there just being 1 or 2.

Crackadalic
03-08-2015, 12:16 PM
Has to be Draymond Green

Chronz
03-08-2015, 12:21 PM
Because he's a better defender this season? Gasol is still playing sort of well defensively but IMO he's not nearly as integral to the teams defense as he has been in previous seasons. Allen is a beast defensively, there's only four players in the entire league with a better DRPM. Gasol isn't even in the top 40 for DRPM this season. In fact he's had a massive drop. Last season his defensive RPM was 5.23 which would be good for 2nd in the league this season, but unfortunately this season his DRPM is 1.93. He's not even top 10 in his position. Obviously this is just one stat, I still think he's a great defender despite what the numbers say, I just think that this season Allen has been better. The only knock on Allen is his limited minutes and he's missed a few games.




Yes. He's having a criminally underrated year defensively imo. His on/off numbers are insane. With him on the floor the Bucks have a top 5 defense in the league then have bang on the league average when he's off the floor. They allow 99 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor and then 109 points per 100 with him off the floor. In fact the opponent is literally worse in every facet of the game when he is on the floor, they turn the ball over more, shoot worse from everywhere on the court, get less free throws, get less assists and commit more fouls.

To top it all of, Middleton is 9th in the league overall for DRPM. He's actually 1st for all SGs. I haven't checked to see where he played most of his minutes though, he's a wing by trade but I've seen him play some 4 in bursts.

But that's just the stats. Watch the kid defend the pick and roll in their next game, they switch a lot and have a lot of length which suits him well so maybe it's the system. But He plays guys brilliantly in PnR situations, dude has a crazy wing span and is light on his feet so he guards 1 through 4 comfortably. He's also very quick at recovering. His footwork one on one isn't amazing but it's still good.

I really like the kid though so maybe I'm a little biased.






See my previous post.

Good argument, under these parameters, I'll try to find a better candidate.

Scoots
03-08-2015, 02:18 PM
I seldom have much dispute of the winner of the DPOY, but the 6th man seems to go to one dimensional players for winning teams most of the time and not to the actual best overall bench player in the game.

lol, please
03-08-2015, 05:27 PM
Shame where the league is at where guys like Joakim Noah, Tyson Chandler, and now Draymond Green are DPOY winners. It disgusts me, honestly.

You had guys like Pippen, Rodman, go their whole career without one DPOY. That tells you the defensive talent disparity between the 90s and today.

Good post. I agree completely.

I would give it to Davis, with Deandre Jordan a close second.

JasonJohnHorn
03-08-2015, 06:27 PM
I think there are a few candidates out there, but I think the two guys at the top of the list are Anthony Davis and Marc Gasol, not because they are the best defenders (though there is a case to be made for each), but because they are both MVP candidates that will likely not have a shot at MVP. Voters usually weigh that in for DPOY voting, like when Garnett was in contention for MVP, but got the DPOY in 2008. He was among the best defenders that year, but was he really doing any more or less than the year before or after? Voters wanted to give him the MVP award, but couldn't come up with a legit case for him over LBJ so the DPOY award turned into the runner up for MVP.


I anticipate that much the same will happen this year, but Marc Gasol and Anthony Davis are the guys that I think voters will go for.


Most of the other picks you all have mentioned are equally deserving.

Sanjay
03-08-2015, 06:38 PM
Who you got?


These are how I rank the top 5 candidates (disclaimer; I tried to stick with guys who have played like 50 games or more, ish) and please remember this is subjective, and entirely my personal opinion;

1. Draymond Green
2. Tim Duncan
3. Rudy Gobert
4. Khris Middleton
5. Tony Allen (yes, despite his limited minutes) OR Anthony Davis (he's not quite there yet imo)

My top five would be:

1. A. Davis
2. D. Green
3. Ibaka
4. M. Gasol
5. Jordan

Kaner
03-08-2015, 06:49 PM
I think there are a few candidates out there, but I think the two guys at the top of the list are Anthony Davis and Marc Gasol, not because they are the best defenders (though there is a case to be made for each), but because they are both MVP candidates that will likely not have a shot at MVP. Voters usually weigh that in for DPOY voting, like when Garnett was in contention for MVP, but got the DPOY in 2008. He was among the best defenders that year, but was he really doing any more or less than the year before or after? Voters wanted to give him the MVP award, but couldn't come up with a legit case for him over LBJ so the DPOY award turned into the runner up for MVP.


I anticipate that much the same will happen this year, but Marc Gasol and Anthony Davis are the guys that I think voters will go for.


Most of the other picks you all have mentioned are equally deserving.

I think you're really off base here, no offense. DPOY has never been a runner up MVP award, it's always gone too, at least arguably, the most important defender in the league on a top defense. You're example of Kevin Garnett is if anything a counter-point, Mutombo, Wallace, and Camby won 8 of the last 12 DPOY prior too Garnett's. None of them MVP candidates while Garnett, a perenial MVP candidate, and one of the best defenders in the league didn't win it over them. Until he anchored an all-time great defense in 07-08, which was why he was a no brainer for DPOY that season.

Goose17
03-08-2015, 07:15 PM
I don't understand the DJ votes tbh. Aside from shot blocking is he really that elite? Even with shot blocking how many shots does he hang onto and how many does he spike out of bounds (which only results in the opponent getting the ball back).

I actually find it offensive that people would consider him a top 5 candidate.

Look at the numbers.

- The Clippers are around the league average as a per possession defensive team. Not all on him obviously but it's a bad start.

- The Clippers are better defensively when DJ isn't on the floor. When he's on the floor opponents shoot a better eFG%, score more points and turn it over less.

- He's 19th for his position in DRPM (he was top 10 last year) and he's 50th overall for the league.

- Opponents succesfully score on 49.4% of their shot attempts around the rim against DJ (better than they do against Gasol, Drummond, Davis, Green, Howard, Noel, Favors, Ibaka and about 15 other guys).


I mean Jordan has good instincts as a shot blocker but his footwork defensively, his positioning, his rotations, his man on man D, his tendency to foul and to bite on fakes all the time leaves A LOT to be desired.

kdspurman
03-08-2015, 07:29 PM
I don't understand the DJ votes tbh. Aside from shot blocking is he really that elite? Even with shot blocking how many shots does he hang onto and how many does he spike out of bounds (which only results in the opponent getting the ball back).

I actually find it offensive that people would consider him a top 5 candidate.

Look at the numbers.

- The Clippers are around the league average as a per possession defensive team. Not all on him obviously but it's a bad start.

- The Clippers are better defensively when DJ isn't on the floor. When he's on the floor opponents shoot a better eFG%, score more points and turn it over less.

- He's 19th for his position in DRPM (he was top 10 last year) and he's 50th overall for the league.

- Opponents score 49.4% of their shots around the rim against DJ (better than they do against Gasol, Drummond, Davis, Green, Howard, Noel, Favors, Ibaka and about 15 other guys).


I mean Jordan has good instincts as a shot blocker but his footwork defensively, his positioning, his rotations, his man on man D, his tendency to foul and to bite on fakes all the time leaves A LOT to be desired.

Yea i don't get it either. But Doc is sure pushing it Morey style.

JordansBulls
03-08-2015, 07:37 PM
Jimmy Butler

tredigs
03-08-2015, 07:42 PM
Lmao at AD as a candidate, let alone #1. For what, anchoring one of the worst D's in the NBA? But yes I agree, he does get pretty blocks. As does Deandre. So there's that.

YAALREADYKNO
03-10-2015, 05:48 PM
I like draymond green.

YAALREADYKNO
03-10-2015, 05:51 PM
I don't understand the DJ votes tbh. Aside from shot blocking is he really that elite? Even with shot blocking how many shots does he hang onto and how many does he spike out of bounds (which only results in the opponent getting the ball back).

I actually find it offensive that people would consider him a top 5 candidate.

Look at the numbers.

- The Clippers are around the league average as a per possession defensive team. Not all on him obviously but it's a bad start.

- The Clippers are better defensively when DJ isn't on the floor. When he's on the floor opponents shoot a better eFG%, score more points and turn it over less.

- He's 19th for his position in DRPM (he was top 10 last year) and he's 50th overall for the league.

- Opponents succesfully score on 49.4% of their shot attempts around the rim against DJ (better than they do against Gasol, Drummond, Davis, Green, Howard, Noel, Favors, Ibaka and about 15 other guys).


I mean Jordan has good instincts as a shot blocker but his footwork defensively, his positioning, his rotations, his man on man D, his tendency to foul and to bite on fakes all the time leaves A LOT to be desired.

I agree Deandre gets a lot of blocks but I don't see him as that elite defensive anchor like Dwight was back in his Orlando days

Scoots
03-10-2015, 06:09 PM
Rebounding is important, but not as important as most national media make it seem. Blocked shots are important, but not as important as most national media make it seem. Great defense is all about the shooting percentage of the defended players. Blocking 5 shots a game isn't as good as changing 10 shots a game. The great defensive players do one hard to do but simple thing at a very high level ... don't let their opponent shoot the shot they want to shoot ... push them out a little, cut them off, turn them, make them work, make them off-balance, force them to their off hand, never allow them to shoot without a hand in their face in their favored spots.

ewing
03-10-2015, 06:41 PM
Rebounding is important, but not as important as most national media make it seem. Blocked shots are important, but not as important as most national media make it seem. Great defense is all about the shooting percentage of the defended players. Blocking 5 shots a game isn't as good as changing 10 shots a game. The great defensive players do one hard to do but simple thing at a very high level ... don't let their opponent shoot the shot they want to shoot ... push them out a little, cut them off, turn them, make them work, make them off-balance, force them to their off hand, never allow them to shoot without a hand in their face in their favored spots.


This is true. I think fans were spoiled for awhile by some great big man shot blockers that were also great position defenders and the stat got very overrated. Might be John Thompson's fault.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2015, 07:17 PM
Shame where the league is at where guys like Joakim Noah, Tyson Chandler, and now Draymond Green are DPOY winners. It disgusts me, honestly.

You had guys like Pippen, Rodman, go their whole career without one DPOY. That tells you the defensive talent disparity between the 90s and today.

well they don't allow you to just straight up grab players anymore 20 feet from the rim, and they allowed zone defense. If anything, the defenses now are better, because they HAD to move to more of a system, team wise. The days of individualism as a defender have lessened greatly as the rule changes occurred.

Pippen, Rodman, all of them, would have to adjust to the physicality allowed now on the perimeter and away from the rim all together. They would get beat more nowadays.

You can thank you Heat, the Knicks, and a handful of other teams for playing a very unappealing visual style of ball in the 90's, that led to the rule changes.

ewing
03-10-2015, 08:04 PM
well they don't allow you to just straight up grab players anymore 20 feet from the rim, and they allowed zone defense. If anything, the defenses now are better, because they HAD to move to more of a system, team wise. The days of individualism as a defender have lessened greatly as the rule changes occurred.

Pippen, Rodman, all of them, would have to adjust to the physicality allowed now on the perimeter and away from the rim all together. They would get beat more nowadays.

You can thank you Heat, the Knicks, and a handful of other teams for playing a very unappealing visual style of ball in the 90's, that led to the rule changes.


thank Micheal Jordan for being that hard to defend and the NBA for being a bunch of greedy whores that weren't going to wait for the things to level out naturally.

D-Leethal
03-10-2015, 08:44 PM
Rodman was a 2x DPOY winner with the Pistons, FWIW.

dalton749
03-10-2015, 10:05 PM
Kd for dpoy? He held Russ to lower numbers than anyone else could

tredigs
03-10-2015, 11:18 PM
Kd for dpoy? He held Russ to lower numbers than anyone else could

Well, not # of 'wins' lol.

Scoots
03-10-2015, 11:32 PM
thank Micheal Jordan for being that hard to defend and the NBA for being a bunch of greedy whores that weren't going to wait for the things to level out naturally.

Makes sense that a user with the name of ewing would be against rule changes brought about by Riley's ugly style of football ... er ... basketball. It was nearly unwatchable, and the change had nothing to do with Jordan, it had to do with the ratings and peoples view of the Knicks Rockets finals (while Jordan was retired).

flea
03-11-2015, 12:29 AM
Makes sense that a user with the name of ewing would be against rule changes brought about by Riley's ugly style of football ... er ... basketball. It was nearly unwatchable, and the change had nothing to do with Jordan, it had to do with the ratings and peoples view of the Knicks Rockets finals (while Jordan was retired).

To be honest, the Bulls played a pretty ugly brand of basketball in MJ's days. Outside of their transition game, it was a lot of standing around and post feeds for their star wings. The Jazz were way more entertaining, even if decidedly inferior.

mightybosstone
03-11-2015, 12:37 AM
This might be the first year in a long time where I have no freaking clue who will win ANY of the regular season awards, including MVP, DPOY, COY, 6th man and MIP. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I certainly think this has been the most interesting season in a long, long time.

YAALREADYKNO
03-11-2015, 12:46 AM
This might be the first year in a long time where I have no freaking clue who will win ANY of the regular season awards, including MVP, DPOY, COY, 6th man and MIP. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I certainly think this has been the most interesting season in a long, long time.

Anthony Davis for most improved? Can't really think of any other candidates off the top of my head

tredigs
03-11-2015, 01:01 AM
Anthony Davis for most improved? Can't really think of any other candidates off the top of my head

Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler pop out to me.

CityofChaos
03-11-2015, 02:06 AM
Idk but Draymond Green is a HUGE piece to that Warriors team and without him they aren't championship contenders based off the fact that he can defend all 5 positions and rebounds well for a guy his size. He is what Dennis Rodman was to Chicago in the 90's for GS

Kaner
03-11-2015, 03:36 AM
Anthony Davis for most improved? Can't really think of any other candidates off the top of my head

Jimmy Butler should be a lock for MIP.

Also think Coach Bud has COY locked in as long as they finish ahead of Cleveland though Kidd, Kerr, and Joerger are all really good candidates if the Hawks weren't such a surprise.

ewing
03-11-2015, 05:28 AM
Makes sense that a user with the name of ewing would be against rule changes brought about by Riley's ugly style of football ... er ... basketball. It was nearly unwatchable, and the change had nothing to do with Jordan, it had to do with the ratings and peoples view of the Knicks Rockets finals (while Jordan was retired).

It was style developed to try and beat Micheal. Of course it doesn't just disappear the second he picks up a baseball bat. The point was that things would have adjusted themselves without making major changes to the game all at once.

Goose17
03-11-2015, 05:59 AM
Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler pop out to me.

And Draymond surely?

ewing
03-11-2015, 08:48 AM
To be honest, the Bulls played a pretty ugly brand of basketball in MJ's days. Outside of their transition game, it was a lot of standing around and post feeds for their star wings. The Jazz were way more entertaining, even if decidedly inferior.


Allen Iverson did too. Then Steve Francis and bunch of guys who over dribbled, then Mike Dantoni came along, etc, etc... the NBA always has a favor of the week. some are more aesthetically pleasing then others. the league has been heavy handed in trying to guide this.

kdspurman
03-11-2015, 09:30 AM
I think if Kawhi hadn't missed so many games, he would be in the convo for sure. But thinking it'll probably be Green, and Duncan should be next, but wouldn't be surprised if he gets overlooked again. Probably between those 2 still.

Though with Doc saying what he did, it wouldn't surprise if DeAndre finished ahead of him.

Chronz
03-11-2015, 10:52 AM
It was style developed to try and beat Micheal. Of course it doesn't just disappear the second he picks up a baseball bat. The point was that things would have adjusted themselves without making major changes to the game all at once.

Doubtful, seems to me defenses only get more sophisticated as they learn to exploit rules and defend. Riley took the same gameplan to Miami, seems like he was only trying to spread the philosophy and teams tend to copy what wins.

ewing
03-11-2015, 11:05 AM
Doubtful, seems to me defenses only get more sophisticated as they learn to exploit rules and defend. Riley took the same gameplan to Miami, seems like he was only trying to spread the philosophy and teams tend to copy what wins.


like i said earlier their is a always a favor of the week.

mike44
03-11-2015, 12:05 PM
Probably green at the moment. Want to give some love to Noel though. He has been a beast defensively, especially recently. If voters cared more about defense he might be in the Roy running.

tredigs
03-11-2015, 12:07 PM
And Draymond surely?

To be clear I was talking about MIP not DPOY (I think you realize), but yeah I had Draymond written too originally, I just erased it because I feel like way too many of my posts are about the Dubs and their players this year and I didn't feel like looking homerish again. But yes, clearly him too. Top 5 for me would probably be some order of Jimmy/Klay/AD/Gobert/Green (last 3 are in my top 5 for DPOY too coincidentally).

Hawkeye15
03-11-2015, 12:28 PM
thank Micheal Jordan for being that hard to defend and the NBA for being a bunch of greedy whores that weren't going to wait for the things to level out naturally.

it was more than Mike. When the low scoring, crawling style of ball came along, it turned fans off. Throwing it into the center for 15 seconds of the clock was boring.

A ton of things contributed to the changes.

Goose17
03-11-2015, 01:08 PM
To be clear I was talking about MIP not DPOY (I think you realize), but yeah I had Draymond written too originally, I just erased it because I feel like way too many of my posts are about the Dubs and their players this year and I didn't feel like looking homerish again. But yes, clearly him too. Top 5 for me would probably be some order of Jimmy/Klay/AD/Gobert/Green (last 3 are in my top 5 for DPOY too coincidentally).

Yeah I knew you were talking about MIP.

And I agree with your top 5, I would have Motiejunas and Shabazz Muhammad just outside the top 5.

It will be great when Steph wins MVP, Draymond wins DPOY and Klay gets MIP.

I'm not afraid to look like a homer ;)

Chronz
03-11-2015, 01:28 PM
like i said earlier their is a always a favor of the week.

I dont think its a flavor anymore man, its become a revolution, it is after all, a copycat league. Ask those within the business and they'll tell you how much everyone is just copying what D'Antoni brought in many years ago.

Then again, Im not sure what you're arguing. I think the league has done just fine in maintaining a friendly balance. I would like to see bigmen get alil more freedom tho.

ewing
03-11-2015, 01:37 PM
it was more than Mike. When the low scoring, crawling style of ball came along, it turned fans off. Throwing it into the center for 15 seconds of the clock was boring.

A ton of things contributed to the changes.

Chuck Daily coined the term the Jordan rules. On his first day Pat Riley told the Knicks roster that they were not going to get posterized by Micheal Jordan. The style of basketball that lead to changes, was an attempt to beat the Bulls. It might not have been pretty, it might not have been liked, but that is all it was. It was the favor of that month. The league overreacted reacted the same way they did after the Malace at the Palace and you were forced to watch D Wade win the NBA finals from the foul line.

ewing
03-11-2015, 01:42 PM
I dont think its a flavor anymore man, its become a revolution, it is after all, a copycat league. Ask those within the business and they'll tell you how much everyone is just copying what D'Antoni brought in many years ago.

Then again, Im not sure what you're arguing. I think the league has done just fine in maintaining a friendly balance. I would like to see bigmen get alil more freedom tho.

they will, once Anthony Davis is best and most popular player in the NBA. D'antoni did start a revolution but its not the only way you can win games. other styles will win. Other styles will be copied. I have $ the Griz getting to the finals, have since pre-season. Still think they are a pretty good pick

Spanklin
03-11-2015, 01:43 PM
This is the last season Gobert won't win DPOY for a straight decade. Those saying he isn't the best defender in the league are insane. He single-handedly changed Utah from serially dead last in defense to elite.

dhopisthename
03-11-2015, 02:26 PM
This is the last season Gobert won't win DPOY for a straight decade. Those saying he isn't the best defender in the league are insane. He single-handedly changed Utah from serially dead last in defense to elite.

:facepalm:

Kaner
03-11-2015, 03:27 PM
:facepalm:

Do you disagree with the rest of the post? It's impossible to predict a decade of basketball but Gobert is arguably the best defender in the NBA right now, one of the most physically gifted defenders ever, and is only getting better.

Scoots
03-11-2015, 03:43 PM
The game can't adjust without a rule change when the tactic takes advantage of a weak rule or weak refs. Don Nelson wrote the old illegal D rules to open up offenses, then the defense adjusted, then they changed the defensive rules again. It's the normal operation of things.

dhopisthename
03-11-2015, 06:11 PM
Do you disagree with the rest of the post? It's impossible to predict a decade of basketball but Gobert is arguably the best defender in the NBA right now, one of the most physically gifted defenders ever, and is only getting better.

because it is ridiculous to think that he could be the best defensive player in the nba for 10 years. dwight howard was awesome earlier in his career and he only won 3. the most every won is 4 by Dikembe Mutombo and ben wallace. its really hard to be that good for that long and that is assuming he is above and away the best defensive player.

naps
03-12-2015, 11:40 AM
Chuck Daily coined the term the Jordan rules. On his first day Pat Riley told the Knicks roster that they were not going to get posterized by Micheal Jordan. The style of basketball that lead to changes, was an attempt to beat the Bulls. It might not have been pretty, it might not have been liked, but that is all it was. It was the favor of that month. The league overreacted reacted the same way they did after the Malace at the Palace and you were forced to watch D Wade win the NBA finals from the foul line.

D Wade won it from the line? Did you watch the finals or you're just being hurt that the Knicks have done anything past 40 years?

ewing
03-12-2015, 11:50 AM
D Wade won it from the line? Did you watch the finals or you're just being hurt that the Knicks have done anything past 40 years?


yes and yes i watched

Spanklin
03-13-2015, 07:34 PM
18 rebounds and 4 blocks in the first half against the Rockets. Not to mention 14 points (for those who think he has no offensive potential and refuse to watch how he moves with the ball and passes incredibly crisply for such a young kid).


Funniest part was that this came against Houston, whose clutch fans have such an irrational hatred for the Jazz that I can't help laughing at 1 guy completely destroying their entire team.

BKdoubleStacker
03-13-2015, 08:05 PM
Chuck Daily coined the term the Jordan rules. On his first day Pat Riley told the Knicks roster that they were not going to get posterized by Micheal Jordan. The style of basketball that lead to changes, was an attempt to beat the Bulls. It might not have been pretty, it might not have been liked, but that is all it was. It was the favor of that month. The league overreacted reacted the same way they did after the Malace at the Palace and you were forced to watch D Wade win the NBA finals from the foul line.

D Wade won it from the line? Did you watch the finals or you're just being hurt that the Knicks have done anything past 40 years?

Doesn't he hold the record for ft attempts in 6 games for the finals.

He also averaged over 16 ft attempts and I think shot more than the entire Dallas team in one game if I'm not mistaken.

Scoots
03-13-2015, 10:28 PM
Tom Haberstroh on ESPN NBA Lockdown spent 10 minutes on how DeAndre not only is not DPOY, but shouldn't be in the discussion. He said: Jordan is a good offensive rebounder, but on the defensive end he steals rebounds from teammates which is reflected in the Clippers having the same defensive rebound percentage when Jordan is off the floor, also that his defensive shooting percentage is 31st in the league near the rim while Gobert is the best (Green is, I think, the top rated non C). He said the Jordan gets blocks because he's hunting blocks not playing defense. Jordan also plays more minutes than any other big in the NBA which inflates his numbers.

ewing
03-14-2015, 08:43 AM
Langston Galloway