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JasonJohnHorn
03-03-2015, 04:05 PM
Of all the players you've watched, who do you think has aged the best?

In my mind, I got John Stockton and Kidd ranked pretty high. Stockton's per36 was 14 points and 10 assists at the age of 40, and his FG and 3P percentages, though slightly lower than his career average, were still better than most point guards in the league.

As for Kidd, he impressed me because after being a poor shooter, get got a respectable 3-point game in his later 20's, but at 35, when most people's careers are over, he suddenly became an elite 3pt shooter, which was key for the Mavs winning it.


Obviously K and M Malone, Garnett, Duncan and Kareem aged well (though Kareem, I remember not being terribly impressive when I watched him in the late 80's). And Wilt, in his final season, post a per-game rebounding average that has not since been matched.

Among active players, I'd say Duncan has aged best, in part because Pop took care to limit his minutes throughout his career.

Who do you think has aged the best?

Hawkeye15
03-03-2015, 04:11 PM
probably need to break this up into bigs and smalls. To me, its far more impressive what Kareem did, over what Stockton did.

ewing
03-03-2015, 04:43 PM
Duncan out current players. Kareem obviously. I remember being pissed when Buck Williams retired. I also remember being shocked at the hops he still had when he came to the Knicks. Some how antonio mcdyess wound up aging well at the end. Kevin Willis was a machine.

ewing
03-03-2015, 04:44 PM
Is Dana Barros still active somewhere?

flea
03-03-2015, 04:49 PM
For as much as people repeat the mantra that Duncan's minutes were managed so meticulously, he still has more minutes than Hakeem, Shaq, Parish, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo, and Mourning through the same age (or same amount of seasons in Mutumbo's case). And that's not even counting the fact that Duncan broke Kareem's all-time minutes played record for the playoffs last season - pushing him even further ahead of those guys.

For contemporaries, Dirk also has slightly more minutes age 20-36 than Duncan's 21-37 - but that's sort of a different sample set and doesn't consider Duncan's extended college career. KG and Duncan are basically dead even on MP from age 21-37 (though KG obviously has more minutes by virtue of not going to college). Both KG and Dirk have well over a full regular season's worth of minutes less in the playoffs than Duncan - so in reality the MP is not even close with them unless you somehow just want to include the regular season.

The only bigs who obviously outpace him are Kareem and Karl Malone. Moses Malone only has about 700 more minutes than Duncan ages 21-37 (and he basically hit a wall at 36). So it's absolutely a fiction that Duncan has played meaningfully less than the rest of the HOFers and that explains his lack of a decline. Unless your name is Kareem or Karl, or you played most of your career in the 60s, your MP resume pales in comparison with Duncan's.

Thumper 88
03-03-2015, 04:54 PM
Malone
Duncan
Dirk

Off the top of my head

PurpleLynch
03-03-2015, 05:15 PM
Duncan is the answer when looking to active players.
Kareem is the answer when looking to all of the Nba's history imo.

AnthonyTyrael2
03-03-2015, 05:25 PM
Duncan is the answer when looking to active players.

Kareem is the answer when looking to all of the Nba's history imo.

I'm on the same page. Dirk dropped off a lot this year. All this talk ppl did before: Golden age....his game will age so well...he is a shooter, this will always be there....haven't seen much of that this season. Won't witness it once come playoffs either.

Duncan is still a force on both ends, when needed.

AnthonyTyrael2
03-03-2015, 05:35 PM
For as much as people repeat the mantra that Duncan's minutes were managed so meticulously, he still has more minutes than Hakeem, Shaq, Parish, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo, and Mourning through the same age (or same amount of seasons in Mutumbo's case). And that's not even counting the fact that Duncan broke Kareem's all-time minutes played record for the playoffs last season - pushing him even further ahead of those guys.

For contemporaries, Dirk also has slightly more minutes age 20-36 than Duncan's 21-37 - but that's sort of a different sample set and doesn't consider Duncan's extended college career. KG and Duncan are basically dead even on MP from age 21-37 (though KG obviously has more minutes by virtue of not going to college). Both KG and Dirk have well over a full regular season's worth of minutes less in the playoffs than Duncan - so in reality the MP is not even close with them unless you somehow just want to include the regular season.

The only bigs who obviously outpace him are Kareem and Karl Malone. Moses Malone only has about 700 more minutes than Duncan ages 21-37 (and he basically hit a wall at 36). So it's absolutely a fiction that Duncan has played meaningfully less than the rest of the HOFers and that explains his lack of a decline. Unless your name is Kareem or Karl, or you played most of your career in the 60s, your MP resume pales in comparison with Duncan's.

Dirk played far more minutes on international court/level without summers of resting and well, he did not play at college but surely he did play basketball before his NBA career has started too and he is slightly younger. Just saying. Having a great team around all the time, winning 5 chips also extends your minutes. Not taking anything away, just putting it in relation.

Hawkamania
03-03-2015, 05:42 PM
probably need to break this up into bigs and smalls. To me, its far more impressive what Kareem did, over what Stockton did.

I completely agree.

L8kers4life
03-03-2015, 05:48 PM
How the hell has Kobe not been mentioned yet. He is going on his 20th year his last two years he has been injured, but we are talking 17 years of high level ball without as much rest as Dirk and Duncan, both Duncan and Dirk have had years where they were injured, to not mention Kobe is just insane.

L8kers4life
03-03-2015, 05:50 PM
For as much as people repeat the mantra that Duncan's minutes were managed so meticulously, he still has more minutes than Hakeem, Shaq, Parish, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo, and Mourning through the same age (or same amount of seasons in Mutumbo's case). And that's not even counting the fact that Duncan broke Kareem's all-time minutes played record for the playoffs last season - pushing him even further ahead of those guys.

For contemporaries, Dirk also has slightly more minutes age 20-36 than Duncan's 21-37 - but that's sort of a different sample set and doesn't consider Duncan's extended college career. KG and Duncan are basically dead even on MP from age 21-37 (though KG obviously has more minutes by virtue of not going to college). Both KG and Dirk have well over a full regular season's worth of minutes less in the playoffs than Duncan - so in reality the MP is not even close with them unless you somehow just want to include the regular season.

The only bigs who obviously outpace him are Kareem and Karl Malone. Moses Malone only has about 700 more minutes than Duncan ages 21-37 (and he basically hit a wall at 36). So it's absolutely a fiction that Duncan has played meaningfully less than the rest of the HOFers and that explains his lack of a decline. Unless your name is Kareem or Karl, or you played most of your career in the 60s, your MP resume pales in comparison with Duncan's.

Kobe has more minutes than all of them except Kareem and Karl and played at a higher level the Dirk and Duncan.

nickdymez
03-03-2015, 06:19 PM
How the hell has Kobe not been mentioned yet. He is going on his 20th year his last two years he has been injured, but we are talking 17 years of high level ball without as much rest as Dirk and Duncan, both Duncan and Dirk have had years where they were injured, to not mention Kobe is just insane.

Because this is PSD

flea
03-03-2015, 06:37 PM
Kobe has more minutes than all of them except Kareem and Karl and played at a higher level the Dirk and Duncan.

I was only comparing bigs because of how demanding the position is in the NBA compared to wings/PGs. Kobe's last season as a meaningful player was his age 34 season, and nobody but Laker fans are holding their breath as to whether he'll become that again. He might hang around and log more regular season minutes than Payton, perhaps even Stockton, but it's very doubtful he'll catch Duncan for postseason minutes and it's entirely plausible that Duncan will surpass him for regular season minutes.

For guards though, Kobe is certainly up there but guys like Stockton, Miller, Havlicek, and probably even Allen saw their games have better mid to late 30s declines than Kobe's. If he can fashion himself as a late-30s version of VC I could see him contributing still. But it's hard to see him taking that role, and even if he is willing whether his body will let him.

KnicksorBust
03-03-2015, 08:55 PM
Kareem
Malone
Duncan
Stockton
Parish

Are all robots.

ewing
03-03-2015, 09:23 PM
Still going with Dana Barros

JasonJohnHorn
03-03-2015, 11:31 PM
probably need to break this up into bigs and smalls. To me, its far more impressive what Kareem did, over what Stockton did.

I find it more impressive when point guards pull it off to be honest. Bigs rely on smarts, size, strength, and skill. They don't need quickness. If they have size and strength, which can stay with you til 50, and they have the smarts to know how to get possession and a decent 15 footer, they'll be in the league until they are 37 or 38 no problem. A point guard not so much. They have to keep up with the quick young guys; the ankle breaker. Bigs get position in the post and work from there, so if you read the guy well, it won't matter if he's a little quicker. But you get a point guard who is a little quicker....


That the reason you see Kevin Willis and Moses Malone and Kareem and Robert Parish and Kurt Thomas and Karl Malone and Tree Rollins all play until they are 38, 39 and 40. How many point guard you know have played until 40? Stockton is the only one I can think of. It is far more rare for a point guard to be starting in this league at 40 than a center, and Kareem really relied on Magi and Worhty by that point. His rebounding was down. He was very impressive, but to me, Duncan is having a bigger impact than Kareem was. Kareem was still scoring 20+ at 38, but his rebounding was under 7 a game with more minutes than Duncan who is getting 10 boards+ . Tim's defense is more important than Kareem's was, especially given that that was the run and run offence. Kareem was still a great scorer, but the Lakers gave him boat loads of shots.



I've seen a lot of big men make it to 38-40. I've only seen one point guard do it.

Tony_Starks
03-03-2015, 11:34 PM
Halle Berry

JasonJohnHorn
03-03-2015, 11:38 PM
How the hell has Kobe not been mentioned yet. He is going on his 20th year his last two years he has been injured, but we are talking 17 years of high level ball without as much rest as Dirk and Duncan, both Duncan and Dirk have had years where they were injured, to not mention Kobe is just insane.

I think the fact he's 36 and he really hasn't played for two years, and the last season he did play he wasn't terribly efficient and the Lakers didn't do well has something to do with it.

Kobe was great. He isn't great any more. And he hasn't been great in at least two years. A career that pretty much ends at 34 is particularly long. Jordan won a scoring title, finals MVP and championship at 34, so if we are going to talk about longevity in guards, Jordan already has Kobe trumped... and he was an All-Star at 39... it doesn't even look like Kobe will be in the league at that point right now.

He started young, so he's had an amazingly long career. But 'aging' well is generally talking about guys past 35, and Kobe hasn't done much to get into that conversation.



And Kobe has played '19' seasons, two of which were pretty much wiped out by injury.


I dont' know what you mean about a 'break' for Duncan. Kobe has missed FAR more time due to injury than Duncan. Duncan's lowest season total outside of strike seasons is 66 and 68, which Duncan only his 68 or lower twice; Kobe's done it SIX times (exlcuding the strike seasons).

Dirk has even better attendance than Duncan AND he's played a boat load of international games, so he's got WAY more games played than Kobe. not even sure what you are talking about there


Reg season games:
Duncan: 1308
Dirk: 1246
Kobe: 1132

And Kobe has been playing a year longer than Duncan and two years longer than Dirk. Who's missed time due to injury again?

Thumper 88
03-04-2015, 12:14 AM
I think the fact he's 36 and he really hasn't played for two years, and the last season he did play he wasn't terribly efficient and the Lakers didn't do well has something to do with it.

Kobe was great. He isn't great any more. And he hasn't been great in at least two years. A career that pretty much ends at 34 is particularly long. Jordan won a scoring title, finals MVP and championship at 34, so if we are going to talk about longevity in guards, Jordan already has Kobe trumped... and he was an All-Star at 39... it doesn't even look like Kobe will be in the league at that point right now.

He started young, so he's had an amazingly long career. But 'aging' well is generally talking about guys past 35, and Kobe hasn't done much to get into that conversation.



And Kobe has played '19' seasons, two of which were pretty much wiped out by injury.


I dont' know what you mean about a 'break' for Duncan. Kobe has missed FAR more time due to injury than Duncan. Duncan's lowest season total outside of strike seasons is 66 and 68, which Duncan only his 68 or lower twice; Kobe's done it SIX times (exlcuding the strike seasons).

Dirk has even better attendance than Duncan AND he's played a boat load of international games, so he's got WAY more games played than Kobe. not even sure what you are talking about there


Reg season games:
Duncan: 1308
Dirk: 1246
Kobe: 1132

And Kobe has been playing a year longer than Duncan and two years longer than Dirk. Who's missed time due to injury again?

Nailed it.

Dirk has/is having a good career into his later years.

I would guess we see more of the old Dirk come playoff time because atm they/Rick is holding him back with the play calling

lol, please
03-04-2015, 01:12 AM
In recent memory, Nash and Duncan.

dhopisthename
03-04-2015, 01:22 AM
Karl malone averaged 20/7 with a 21 per and 11 win shares at age 39. he won an mvp at age 35. Kareem at age 39 posted 15/6 in only 28 minutes. both were pretty remarkable

eibbor
03-04-2015, 01:42 AM
Not gonna call out names since I just received some stupid warning from sfrush90 but to have Ben Wallace in a sig shows a total ignorance of the NBA.

He was obviously on steroids and obviously has mental issues.

The dude was terrible at basketball, had no mental iq and only blocked and rebounded because he was on the sauce. He makes Artest look like a genius. Sad

eibbor
03-04-2015, 01:47 AM
Karl malone averaged 20/7 with a 21 per and 11 win shares at age 39. he won an mvp at age 35. Kareem at age 39 posted 15/6 in only 28 minutes. both were pretty remarkable

Karl Malone gets too much hype. JS made him. This is why advanced stats suck... KArl, like Webber, wasn't smart enough to realize they were the biggest guys on the floor and took jumpers... Both could have been better if they just tried harder.

Put Karl on any team where he is supposed to be the man and you would win 40 games, if you are lucky.

PowerHouse
03-04-2015, 02:05 AM
Since his game launched to another level when he hit his 30s I have to go with Nash. Also Wilt was still leading the league in rebounding and FG% when he walked away at 36. He couldve played a couple more years at a very high level had he chosen to do so.

Also Jordan did pretty well for a 40 yr old guard.

ewing
03-04-2015, 09:36 AM
since his game launched to another level when he hit his 30s i have to go with nash. Also wilt was still leading the league in rebounding and fg% when he walked away at 36. He couldve played a couple more years at a very high level had he chosen to do so.

Also jordan did pretty well for a 40 yr old guard.


everyone else forgot the one true answer, good job

KnicksorBust
03-04-2015, 01:36 PM
For this category, Dirk needs to plug out another 2-3 years to reach the same status as The Chief.

IKnowHoops
03-04-2015, 02:27 PM
Kareem
Malone
Jordan

IKnowHoops
03-04-2015, 02:31 PM
Halle Berry
1B Sofia Vergara

PowerHouse
03-04-2015, 05:17 PM
^Sofia Vergara blasts Halle Berry out of the water.

JustinTime
03-04-2015, 05:31 PM
Vince Carter should get some props here it's hard for high flyers like that to stay effective at the end of their careers.

YAALREADYKNO
03-04-2015, 06:02 PM
^Sofia Vergara blasts Halle Berry out of the water.

Jennifer lopez and jennifer aniston beats both of them

Chronz
03-04-2015, 06:25 PM
The only reason I dont like seeing Nash mentioned is because he really didn't play much to start his career. I would argue he was every bit as athletic at 33 that he was at 28 for example. Age matters but so too does mileage. Not sure how Nash stacks up if you count his prior reserve seasons as throwaways.

Maybe even Stockton but I dont remember when he really began getting starters minutes. He was prolly one of the first guys whos minutes I can remember being carefully massaged.

Chronz
03-04-2015, 06:28 PM
Vince Carter should get some props here it's hard for high flyers like that to stay effective at the end of their careers.

He should get mentioned but I dont know how much props some guys should get. We're basically crediting them for keeping their bodies in balance, which sounds great but some players just have bad breaks beyond their control. VC has remained pretty athletic for his age, hes also developed skills that age well so yeah, he should get more credit than most high flyers. Truly underrated career IMO.

Hawkeye15
03-04-2015, 06:32 PM
someone give me an argument against Kareem

flea
03-04-2015, 07:51 PM
someone give me an argument against Kareem

Best I could do is to say that his rebounding took a serious nosedive at age 32, and compared to his HOF peers he doesn't quite stack up as well on the boards. From age 35 on it appears he was nothing more than a placeholder defensively. But his crazy inside game, and a lack of serious banging throughout the 80s, meant his offensive game never really dropped off much until he turned 40.

You could conjecture that his finesse game inside wouldn't have played as well in the zone defense era when teams can stack the paint and bring traps on the low block with a lot more ease than in the illegal defense era. But then who is to say his P&R game wouldn't have been just as good as, say, Duncan or Malone into his late 30s? I've only watched the big games of his in the 80s, and very little of his true pre-Lakers prime. All this is just guesswork and nitpicking - he's definitely among the top 5 guys ever who had a game that aged well.

Supreme LA
03-04-2015, 08:03 PM
I was only comparing bigs because of how demanding the position is in the NBA compared to wings/PGs. Kobe's last season as a meaningful player was his age 34 season, and nobody but Laker fans are holding their breath as to whether he'll become that again. He might hang around and log more regular season minutes than Payton, perhaps even Stockton, but it's very doubtful he'll catch Duncan for postseason minutes and it's entirely plausible that Duncan will surpass him for regular season minutes.

For guards though, Kobe is certainly up there but guys like Stockton, Miller, Havlicek, and probably even Allen saw their games have better mid to late 30s declines than Kobe's. If he can fashion himself as a late-30s version of VC I could see him contributing still. But it's hard to see him taking that role, and even if he is willing whether his body will let him.


How demanding the bigs position is? I think you're missing the fact that players on the perimeter, especially in the last two decades, have had to face a constant influx of younger and more athletic players coming into the league. The young players coming into the league as guards and PG's make it much more difficult for old guys to keep up with their speed on both ends of the court, not to mention lateral quickness as well.

I think Jason Kidd should get a lot of credit but I guy like Stockton wouldn't have faired so well in the last two decades with the amount of super athletic guards that have come into the league. Guys like D-Rose and Westbrook would have forced Stockton out of the league much earlier.

I'm not as impressed with bigs being able to play longer at a decent level because they aren't required to move their feet as much on the perimeter. Bigs basically just need to be skilled to sustain a long career because they plant themselves in the paint during the course of a game and therefore do not exert as much energy or wear and tear on their bodies as perimeter players.

There are so many factors to this stuff but everybody here just seems to disregard everything when comparing bigs to guards. It's like saying a QB in football playing 15 yrs is more impressive than a running back who plays 10 yrs.

flea
03-04-2015, 08:15 PM
If you can shoot or pass at a high level and have a good basketball IQ you can play guard or wing much longer. Guards are easier to hide defensively too. Sure there is more turnover with smalls, but I think that's mostly because there are just so many more smalls in the general population and the NBA is a highly athletic endeavor. But we're not talking about Reggie Evans or Mike James hanging around at the end of a bench, we're talking about the great players who played meaningful minutes.

Cracking a rotation as a big is hard because you can't really be hidden defensively or offensively, especially with how the game is now. It may seem like bigs can hang around but I think part of that is the fact that there are just less humans big enough to play PF or C in the NBA. The responsibility load is much greater defensively for bigs, and it's getting that way offensively. These days, if you can't shoot and you're not big/long enough to hang as a center you're toast.

KnicksorBust
03-04-2015, 08:18 PM
someone give me an argument against Kareem

Top of my list dog. I think Mailman and Chief are getting a raw deal here.

Chronz
03-04-2015, 08:54 PM
How demanding the bigs position is? I think you're missing the fact that players on the perimeter, especially in the last two decades, have had to face a constant influx of younger and more athletic players coming into the league. The young players coming into the league as guards and PG's make it much more difficult for old guys to keep up with their speed on both ends of the court, not to mention lateral quickness as well.

I think Jason Kidd should get a lot of credit but I guy like Stockton wouldn't have faired so well in the last two decades with the amount of super athletic guards that have come into the league. Guys like D-Rose and Westbrook would have forced Stockton out of the league much earlier.
Just how much of Stockton did you watch? Those guys give everyone today problems so I fail to see why a smart defender like Stockton would struggle any more than anyone else. Its not like he was Steve Nash defensively (a guy who many are still listing here today), its like when vintage Wade was struggling with the likes of Kirk Hinrich, smart-heady defenders can hold their own against superior athletes.


I'm not as impressed with bigs being able to play longer at a decent level because they aren't required to move their feet as much on the perimeter. Bigs basically just need to be skilled to sustain a long career because they plant themselves in the paint during the course of a game and therefore do not exert as much energy or wear and tear on their bodies as perimeter players.
I doubt thats the case, theres so much more freedom of movement on the perimeter, whereas in the post you have to fight for every inch of position. Its not like opposing teams just allow opposing centers to just "plant themselves" wherever they wish. They fight for position and take plenty of hits too ya know.


There are so many factors to this stuff but everybody here just seems to disregard everything when comparing bigs to guards. It's like saying a QB in football playing 15 yrs is more impressive than a running back who plays 10 yrs.

Is the Bigman battling on the blocks the RB?

IKnowHoops
03-04-2015, 08:55 PM
Jennifer lopez and jennifer aniston beats both of them

:speechless::confused::no::pity::shush::offtopic:: faint::yawn:

Chronz
03-04-2015, 09:09 PM
someone give me an argument against Kareem
I just spent 10 minutes writing up my case and then took a glance at the numbers and realized I just wasted my time. Its really hard to argue against him. Arguable prime run of 18-19 years. The best argument I can think of is his peak run being only 11 years or so. LOL thats probably how many years most greats get anyways.

JasonJohnHorn
03-04-2015, 09:42 PM
Not gonna call out names since I just received some stupid warning from sfrush90 but to have Ben Wallace in a sig shows a total ignorance of the NBA.

He was obviously on steroids and obviously has mental issues.

The dude was terrible at basketball, had no mental iq and only blocked and rebounded because he was on the sauce. He makes Artest look like a genius. Sad

WOW! Just wow.

The best rebounder and defender of his generation. Sure... he wasn't a great scorer, but.... to discredit everything Wallace did on a baseless accusation about steroids? Gimmie a break.


Not that a word of anything you just said has anything to do with the thread.

JasonJohnHorn
03-04-2015, 09:45 PM
someone give me an argument against Kareem

I put Stockton and Kareem at the top of my list with Karl Malone close behind.

Anybody who doesn't have Kareem at the top of their list isn't thinking. I will be critical of the fact that that his rebounding took such a huge hit in the 80's, but he was still perhaps the best post scorer in the league at 38. That is amazing. Always a solid passer.

Like I said, as a Bad Boys fan, watching him, I didn't think he had a lot at the defensive end, and I'd take Timmy at 38 on D over Kareem... but Kareem's offense....

But I gotta see Duncan at 40 before I pick Duncan over Kareem.



KJ + Stockon

K Malone

ewing
03-05-2015, 09:42 AM
How demanding the bigs position is? I think you're missing the fact that players on the perimeter, especially in the last two decades, have had to face a constant influx of younger and more athletic players coming into the league. The young players coming into the league as guards and PG's make it much more difficult for old guys to keep up with their speed on both ends of the court, not to mention lateral quickness as well.

I think Jason Kidd should get a lot of credit but I guy like Stockton wouldn't have faired so well in the last two decades with the amount of super athletic guards that have come into the league. Guys like D-Rose and Westbrook would have forced Stockton out of the league much earlier.

I'm not as impressed with bigs being able to play longer at a decent level because they aren't required to move their feet as much on the perimeter. Bigs basically just need to be skilled to sustain a long career because they plant themselves in the paint during the course of a game and therefore do not exert as much energy or wear and tear on their bodies as perimeter players.

There are so many factors to this stuff but everybody here just seems to disregard everything when comparing bigs to guards. It's like saying a QB in football playing 15 yrs is more impressive than a running back who plays 10 yrs.

seriously, i think we need to reclassify the species. humans have just gotten so much more athletic over the past 15 years :laugh:

ewing
03-05-2015, 10:01 AM
How demanding the bigs position is? I think you're missing the fact that players on the perimeter, especially in the last two decades, have had to face a constant influx of younger and more athletic players coming into the league. The young players coming into the league as guards and PG's make it much more difficult for old guys to keep up with their speed on both ends of the court, not to mention lateral quickness as well.

I think Jason Kidd should get a lot of credit but I guy like Stockton wouldn't have faired so well in the last two decades with the amount of super athletic guards that have come into the league. Guys like D-Rose and Westbrook would have forced Stockton out of the league much earlier.

I'm not as impressed with bigs being able to play longer at a decent level because they aren't required to move their feet as much on the perimeter. Bigs basically just need to be skilled to sustain a long career because they plant themselves in the paint during the course of a game and therefore do not exert as much energy or wear and tear on their bodies as perimeter players.

There are so many factors to this stuff but everybody here just seems to disregard everything when comparing bigs to guards. It's like saying a QB in football playing 15 yrs is more impressive than a running back who plays 10 yrs.

how many guys do you think there are like Russel Westbrook? Thats like saying 6'9 PGs leading the fastbreak were littering the NBA in 1984. That was one guy and no one called him by his name, just magic. Wesrtbrook is an absolute freak. He just had 4 consecutive triple doubles. John Stockton played against great guards and was 2nd team all defensive 5 times in his NBA career. You literally have no idea what are talking about.

valade16
03-05-2015, 10:03 AM
Has anyone won an MVP at an older age than Karl Malone? He was like 36 when he won it.

Spanklin
03-05-2015, 08:58 PM
Greg Oden

Spanklin
03-05-2015, 08:59 PM
Halle Berry


1B Sofia Vergara

Salma Hayak, Marie Osmond.

PowerHouse
03-05-2015, 10:22 PM
Has anyone won an MVP at an older age than Karl Malone? He was like 36 when he won it.

No. He was the oldest.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2015, 02:07 AM
I just spent 10 minutes writing up my case and then took a glance at the numbers and realized I just wasted my time. Its really hard to argue against him. Arguable prime run of 18-19 years. The best argument I can think of is his peak run being only 11 years or so. LOL thats probably how many years most greats get anyways.

scary thought. His non-peak run was still an all star level player.

KnicksorBust
03-06-2015, 08:56 AM
I just spent 10 minutes writing up my case and then took a glance at the numbers and realized I just wasted my time. Its really hard to argue against him. Arguable prime run of 18-19 years. The best argument I can think of is his peak run being only 11 years or so. LOL thats probably how many years most greats get anyways.

scary thought. His non-peak run was still an all star level player.

And people try and act like he not #2 all-time. Hell imo he is the only one who could challenge MJ for GOAT.

valade16
03-06-2015, 11:56 AM
No. He was the oldest.

Then for who aged best it has to be Malone to me. Kareem is right there but his rebounding fell off a cliff at like 35 and Malone averaged 20 PPG later than Kareem did and still rocked a 21.7 PER at 39.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2015, 12:18 PM
And people try and act like he not #2 all-time. Hell imo he is the only one who could challenge MJ for GOAT.

I have Kareem firmly planted as my #2 all time. I can live with a debate for Wilt with him though. Jordan is the only player better for me

KnicksorBust
03-06-2015, 12:41 PM
And people try and act like he not #2 all-time. Hell imo he is the only one who could challenge MJ for GOAT.

I have Kareem firmly planted as my #2 all time. I can live with a debate for Wilt with him though. Jordan is the only player better for me

Wilt's inferior playoff success doesnt bother you?

Hawkeye15
03-06-2015, 01:35 PM
Wilt's inferior playoff success doesnt bother you?

its the only reason Wilt isn't above him

HeatFan
03-06-2015, 06:11 PM
If who has aged the best is proportionate to skill level, meaning how much talent wise an athlete was able to maintain his level of play for the longest, then I have to say Kevin Willis, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, even Grant Hill (which is incredible considering his injuries).

IKnowHoops
03-06-2015, 06:28 PM
someone give me an argument against Kareem

I think the only argument is the mailman's career and winning an MVP at a later age than Kareem. Thats as real an argument as your gonna find

IKnowHoops
03-06-2015, 06:34 PM
I predict Lebron will be in this conversation when its all said and done. I can see him still running pretty well at 40 years old.

Chronz
03-06-2015, 06:57 PM
Wilt's inferior playoff success doesnt bother you?

Wilt did more with less IMO.

THE MTL
03-06-2015, 08:55 PM
Vince Carter should get some props here it's hard for high flyers like that to stay effective at the end of their careers.

Ehh the difference between these guys and Carter is that they remained at/near Allstar level

JasonJohnHorn
03-06-2015, 09:22 PM
Salma Hayak, Marie Osmond.


Helen Mirren /thread

kingsdelez24
03-06-2015, 09:25 PM
Michael Jordan was still the best player in the world at 36, so TECHINCALLY...

ewing
03-07-2015, 09:17 AM
Michael Jordan was still the best player in the world at 36, so TECHINCALLY...

yeah, i kind of remember him going out on top in Chicago. yep.

ewing
03-07-2015, 09:30 AM
someone give me an argument against Kareem

this is the only one i can think of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro

hidalgo
03-07-2015, 11:04 AM
Has anyone won an MVP at an older age than Karl Malone? He was like 36 when he won it.

him & Jordan both won it at age 35. the 2 oldest to win it. Karl was 5 months older, but they were both 35

Bramaca
03-07-2015, 11:10 AM
Out of current players Duncan would be first and Dirk would be second out of bigs IMO. Surprised nobody has talked about Pierce for wings though. I think his game has held up better then other wings in the league now.

hidalgo
03-07-2015, 11:57 AM
probably Kareem, & Stockton aged the best. when Stockton retired at age 41 he looked like he could've played 4 or 5 more years easy. wow did he age well

Karl Malone, Michael Jordan(only 20 ppg guy at age 40, & still played good defense, & very few turnovers. a SG has no business being as good as MJ was at ages 39 & 40. it just seemed odd because he wasn't nearly as good as his bulls self) , & Tim Duncan are up there too

valade16
03-07-2015, 04:00 PM
probably Kareem, & Stockton aged the best. when Stockton retired at age 41 he looked like he could've played 4 or 5 more years easy. wow did he age well

Karl Malone, Michael Jordan(only 20 ppg guy at age 40, & still played good defense, & very few turnovers. a SG has no business being as good as MJ was at ages 39 & 40. it just seemed odd because he wasn't nearly as good as his bulls self) , & Tim Duncan are up there too

I don't feel like we can include Michael Jordan in terms of who aged the best because he had so many years where he wasn't playing in between. He had like 5 seasons of not playing basketball, who is to say had he played those 5 seasons he would have aged as well? That is a lot of wear and tear on the body he circumvented.

InRoseWeTrust
03-07-2015, 04:31 PM
Kate Beckinsale.

hidalgo
03-07-2015, 09:35 PM
I don't feel like we can include Michael Jordan in terms of who aged the best because he had so many years where he wasn't playing in between. He had like 5 seasons of not playing basketball, who is to say had he played those 5 seasons he would have aged as well? That is a lot of wear and tear on the body he circumvented.true, but he was still 39, & 40 his last 2 seasons. and was easily still the best during his last year on the bulls (he was age 35, allstar mvp, mvp, finals mvp)

his nba career is 15 seasons, but add his 3 college years, & his baseball year, & that's 19 seasons total he went through. as many seasons as KB right now

Sandman
03-07-2015, 10:10 PM
How the hell has Kobe not been mentioned yet. He is going on his 20th year his last two years he has been injured, but we are talking 17 years of high level ball without as much rest as Dirk and Duncan, both Duncan and Dirk have had years where they were injured, to not mention Kobe is just insane.

Because Kobe has been hurt for the last 3 ****ing years? Maybe? that might have something to do with it?

Duncan is 38 and just won a title?

Jordan won a title at 38?

Kobe is a non factor at 36

Better question: Why the **** would anybody mention Kobe?

ewing
03-08-2015, 08:44 PM
I don't feel like we can include Michael Jordan in terms of who aged the best because he had so many years where he wasn't playing in between. He had like 5 seasons of not playing basketball, who is to say had he played those 5 seasons he would have aged as well? That is a lot of wear and tear on the body he circumvented.


Of course you can. He went the finals over and over, had higher usage over that period then anyone, and also took more of a beaten then anyone you will ever see again. when he left the Bulls for real he was hands down the best basketball player in the world. Without, the Wizard years MJ aged better then anyone i have been lucky enough to followed.

valade16
03-09-2015, 09:09 AM
Of course you can. He went the finals over and over, had higher usage over that period then anyone, and also took more of a beaten then anyone you will ever see again. when he left the Bulls for real he was hands down the best basketball player in the world. Without, the Wizard years MJ aged better then anyone i have been lucky enough to followed.

I think at that point it was arguable, if anything his mystic and legacy were what made him #1 at that time, not his performance by that point.

His FG% that season was 46.5%, the lowest of his career for a full season starting. His 3PT% was 23.8%. His FT % was 78% the lowest of his career to that point (and first season under 80%).

His PER was 25.2, his TS% was 53.3%, his WS/48 was .238. Those were all at or near career lows. He was definitely slowing down, and that is with his 2 year hiatus.

Up to that point he had played 1,109 career games including the playoffs. Karl Malone had played 1,198 games up to that point (on fairly high usage rates himself) and had just come off 3 deep playoff runs and yet had another 5 seasons after Jordan retired where he averaged 23 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 23.9 PER, .207 WS/48, and a 55.8 TS%.

While Jordan was the GOAT, Karl Malone surpasses him in terms of longevity.

ewing
03-09-2015, 10:04 AM
I think at that point it was arguable, if anything his mystic and legacy were what made him #1 at that time, not his performance by that point.

His FG% that season was 46.5%, the lowest of his career for a full season starting. His 3PT% was 23.8%. His FT % was 78% the lowest of his career to that point (and first season under 80%).

His PER was 25.2, his TS% was 53.3%, his WS/48 was .238. Those were all at or near career lows. He was definitely slowing down, and that is with his 2 year hiatus.

Up to that point he had played 1,109 career games including the playoffs. Karl Malone had played 1,198 games up to that point (on fairly high usage rates himself) and had just come off 3 deep playoff runs and yet had another 5 seasons after Jordan retired where he averaged 23 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 23.9 PER, .207 WS/48, and a 55.8 TS%.

While Jordan was the GOAT, Karl Malone surpasses him in terms of longevity.


I thought it might have been at the time during the season. I actually thought the Pacers were going to beat them. I was wrong. A 45 point buzzer beating game 6 to cement his legacy drove the point home. If you want to crunch #s and make a case for Malone go for it but saying MJ isn't in the conversation is wrong.

valade16
03-09-2015, 10:15 AM
I thought it might have been at the time during the season. I actually thought the Pacers were going to beat them. I was wrong. A 45 point buzzer beating game 6 to cement his legacy drove the point home. If you want to crunch #s and make a case for Malone go for it but saying MJ isn't in the conversation is wrong.

In the conversation sure, but he is hurt by the fact that he had 2 retirements that make it difficult to see his natural progression and decline. I imagine a year off from the grind of an NBA season would do wonders to extend your career.

Although he is in the conversation, Malone and KAJ at the least have him beat in terms of longevity.

ewing
03-09-2015, 10:20 AM
In the conversation sure, but he is hurt by the fact that he had 2 retirements that make it difficult to see his natural progression and decline. I imagine a year off from the grind of an NBA season would do wonders to extend your career.

Although he is in the conversation, Malone and KAJ at the least have him beat in terms of longevity.


That is definitely fair. Jordan case is the he dominated the league until he left the bulls. The fact that he was always the best and always beat the field can be seen as transcending. I've never seen anyone other then Jordan and Roger Federer consistently beat the field. Jordan did that until an advanced age for his sport. On the other hand, Kareem and Karl played longer, more, and maintained an incredible level doing it. What Jordan did on Wiz is impressive what he did on the Bulls is singularly remarkable

hidalgo
03-09-2015, 01:08 PM
In the conversation sure, but he is hurt by the fact that he had 2 retirements that make it difficult to see his natural progression and decline. I imagine a year off from the grind of an NBA season would do wonders to extend your career.

Although he is in the conversation, Malone and KAJ at the least have him beat in terms of longevity.his first retirement he didn't really rest, he was playing a full season of minor league baseball (127 games).

his 2nd retirement yea he rested, but aged so much it robbed him of 2 more years of probably being the best player in the nba in 99 & 2000(at age 36 & 37). but at ages 39 & 40... nobody will ever be the best in the nba at those ages. age 36 especially, & 37 he still could have been (top 3 for sure). so it's a double edged sword

Chronz
03-10-2015, 01:21 AM
Today was Matt Barnes 35 Birth day and I realized he was the obvious answer here. I've reconsidered what good aging should look like. Kareem fell off ALOT from his prime days by the time he was old and rebounding like a SF. Sure Kareem remained elite but he didn't remain Kareem. Matt Barnes however, is as good today as he ever was.

PowerHouse
03-10-2015, 02:05 AM
The only reason I dont like seeing Nash mentioned is because he really didn't play much to start his career.



Today was Matt Barnes 35 Birth day and I realized he was the obvious answer here. I've reconsidered what good aging should look like. Kareem fell off ALOT from his prime days by the time he was old and rebounding like a SF. Sure Kareem remained elite but he didn't remain Kareem. Matt Barnes however, is as good today as he ever was.

Remember when you said the top quote about Nash? Thats exactly why Barnes is not the answer here. BTW, Nash played a hell of a lot more than Barnes did at the early stages of his career, a younger start too.

ewing
03-10-2015, 06:08 AM
Today was Matt Barnes 35 Birth day and I realized he was the obvious answer here. I've reconsidered what good aging should look like. Kareem fell off ALOT from his prime days by the time he was old and rebounding like a SF. Sure Kareem remained elite but he didn't remain Kareem. Matt Barnes however, is as good today as he ever was.

solid point. I'm still going Dana Baros