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YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 09:32 PM
I'm having a discussion with one of my cousins about this and he's saying kobe should be ranked #2 possibly even #1 all time. Me personally I have him in my top 10 but I think #1 or 2 is a little crazy and just plain stupid

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 09:34 PM
and kobe is one of my favorite of all times but I'm not dumb enough to call him a top 3 player of all time lol

bucketss
03-01-2015, 09:37 PM
i have him 11th

Chronz
03-01-2015, 09:39 PM
Is there some change if he retires5 years from now.

Shady66
03-01-2015, 09:39 PM
Top 10 for sure

mightybosstone
03-01-2015, 09:39 PM
We've had this thread a lot of times before, but considering he's pretty close to retirement and it's been a while, this is probably relevant again. The last time I ranked him, I had him at 11th, and that hasn't changed at this point. In no particular order, I have the following players ahead of him:
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Larry Bird

Jamiecballer
03-01-2015, 09:40 PM
10-15

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 09:41 PM
Is there some change if he retires5 years from now.

sure. As long as a player actually retires from the NBA I think he can always move up but just talkin about as of right now

KnicksorBust
03-01-2015, 09:42 PM
Kobe is 5th all-time. He was 4th until last season.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Kobe

still1ballin
03-01-2015, 09:42 PM
I already kno

mightybosstone
03-01-2015, 09:44 PM
sure. As long as a player actually retires from the NBA I think he can always move up but just talkin about as of right now

The point Chronz was making is that Kobe isn't likely to add anything significant to his career resume between now and his retirement. So his ranking isn't likely to change at all between now and then.

mightybosstone
03-01-2015, 09:46 PM
Kobe is 5th all-time. He was 4th until last season.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Kobe

KOB, I love you man, but I'll never understand your love for the guy.

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 09:46 PM
The point Chronz was making is that Kobe isn't likely to add anything significant to his career resume between now and his retirement. So his ranking isn't likely to change at all between now and then.

Ok, well where would he rank of right now then? All im asking.

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 09:47 PM
I don't think kobe being top 5 is crazy but to be ahead of guys like magic and kareem? I don't know about all that

ManningToTyree
03-01-2015, 09:49 PM
He's probably in the back end of the top 10

KnicksorBust
03-01-2015, 09:50 PM
Kobe is 5th all-time. He was 4th until last season.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Kobe

KOB, I love you man, but I'll never understand your love for the guy.

:)

I love harden too. Does that help?

asandhu23
03-01-2015, 09:50 PM
A few years down the road, none of you guys would vote for him among the top 10. You would latch on to the whoever the next star in NBA is.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2015, 09:55 PM
A few years down the road, none of you guys would vote for him among the top 10. You would latch on to the whoever the next star in NBA is.

I will still be here in a few years. Feel free to call me out.

numba1CHANGsta
03-01-2015, 09:59 PM
Top 10 for sure (anyone who argues against that is an idiot)

jerellh528
03-01-2015, 10:00 PM
4

Mj
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Russell

Tony_Starks
03-01-2015, 10:02 PM
5th or 6th

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 10:03 PM
Would y'all rank him ahead of magic or Kareem?

mngopher35
03-01-2015, 10:09 PM
Probably about 8th or 9th. I have him in the same tier as Russell Bird and lebron (for now).

No I wouldn't rank him above magic, definitely not kaj.

Bruno
03-01-2015, 10:11 PM
Comfortably top ten. guys who have a bias against Kobe because of his style of game, or personality tend to put him as low as 11th, because they know thats the lowest they can put him without looking blatantly bias. anything lower than that tends to get dismissed, as of now, since back to back finals MVPs in 2009 and 2010.

hidalgo
03-01-2015, 10:12 PM
We've had this thread a lot of times before, but considering he's pretty close to retirement and it's been a while, this is probably relevant again. The last time I ranked him, I had him at 11th, and that hasn't changed at this point. In no particular order, I have the following players ahead of him:
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Larry Birdthat's my top 10 players too (different order, but all ahead of KB). i HATE Kobly, but my unbias opinion is he's #11, (12 at worst)

Chronz
03-01-2015, 10:15 PM
sure. As long as a player actually retires from the NBA I think he can always move up but just talkin about as of right now
If he hasnt moved ahead by now, i don't see how these next few years are gonna help

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 10:19 PM
If he hasnt moved ahead by now, i don't see how these next few years are gonna help

Well where would you rank him all time then?

jayjay33
03-01-2015, 10:20 PM
Between 3-5, most likely 3.

Tony_Starks
03-01-2015, 10:20 PM
Would y'all rank him ahead of magic or Kareem?


Can't do it. Well Magic is number 1 for me but even if he wasn't I can't put him over Magic or Kareem.

But to your original point one of my boys is a hardcore Bulls fan and he actually has Kobe over MJ which even to me as a Laker fan is like whoa........

More-Than-Most
03-01-2015, 10:27 PM
8-12


I cant see any argument for him in the top 5

Ariza's Better
03-01-2015, 10:27 PM
Top 10. Somewhere between 10 to 6.

Supreme LA
03-01-2015, 10:29 PM
This thread again?

Here is your answer. If you don't like Kobe, he's just outside your top 10.

If you love Kobe, he is in your top 5.

If you are an objective person, he ranks from 7 to 10.

There's your answer. /thread.

LA_Raiders
03-01-2015, 10:31 PM
He is top 2 IMO

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 10:46 PM
Can't do it. Well Magic is number 1 for me but even if he wasn't I can't put him over Magic or Kareem.

But to your original point one of my boys is a hardcore Bulls fan and he actually has Kobe over MJ which even to me as a Laker fan is like whoa........

He's not Jordan but I can't rank him over magic or Kareem either

KMackSackAttack
03-01-2015, 11:24 PM
Top 5

LakerShow
03-01-2015, 11:34 PM
The greatest. :p

Bostonjorge
03-02-2015, 12:14 AM
Top 5 for sure easily. Once he hangs it up he will be top 3.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 12:38 AM
Top 5 for sure easily. Once he hangs it up he will be top 3.

so in his decline years where he has been beyond horrible he is gonna jump 2 spots?

Lakers + Giants
03-02-2015, 12:51 AM
Back end of the top 10. Like 7th-9th.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 12:56 AM
so in his decline years where he has been beyond horrible he is gonna jump 2 spots?

I was gonna ask the same thing lol

Supreme LA
03-02-2015, 01:02 AM
so in his decline years where he has been beyond horrible he is gonna jump 2 spots?

He's been past the point of a decline for sometime now. His declining years range from after his peak in 06-08 till he hit bottom when he tore his achilles. The time since he's come back shouldn't affect his ranking whatsoever.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 01:07 AM
Well where would you rank him all time then?

Wherever I rank him, what exactly would you expect him to achieve in order to surpass some of these greats?

I mean, we've already seen the best Kobe has to offer, if hes moving up anyones list at this point, they grossly overestimate longevity IMO. But thats just me. I will never rank him ahead of the likes of Shaq, Duncan or Wilt, simply because he never had the sort of 2-way dominance of those guys. I value how good a player actually was moreso than how much he sustained his relative dominance. And Kobe at this point isn't sustaining anything any more so anyone moving him up must be expecting him to revert to MVP form. Otherwise, why would anyone care?

Chronz
03-02-2015, 01:09 AM
Top 5 for sure easily. Once he hangs it up he will be top 3.

lmfao... what , is he gonna rewrite history? Easily outside the top-5 barring this unforeseen comeback.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-02-2015, 01:19 AM
top 10

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 01:24 AM
He's been past the point of a decline for sometime now. His declining years range from after his peak in 06-08 till he hit bottom when he tore his achilles. The time since he's come back shouldn't affect his ranking whatsoever.

yea thats my point. No offense to him its impressive with guys like him and Timmy that can play for as long as they have and stay healthy. He is where he is in someones rankings right now and that is where he will remain. I wouldnt up or lower him with his play going forward because he is gonna be bad and that is what decline does.

lakerboy
03-02-2015, 01:34 AM
I don't knwo why Magic would be higher than Kobe in on any list. People discount Kobe's championships with Shaq but Magic played with Kareem all the way.

Supreme LA
03-02-2015, 01:42 AM
I don't knwo why Magic would be higher than Kobe in on any list. People discount Kobe's championships with Shaq but Magic played with Kareem all the way.

I get what you're saying but Magic's dominance at his position was something that was never seen before. I also think a lot of people still place high value on what Magic meant to the game of basketball during the 80's as he and Bird basically carried the league. That really is the only reason I can see someone having Bird ahead of Kobe as well because there is no other reason.

I just try not to debate it because everyone has their own opinion. I don't have a problem myself with Magic ahead of Kobe but I've never agreed with those who put Bird ahead of Kobe.

tredigs
03-02-2015, 01:46 AM
I get what you're saying but Magic's dominance at his position was something that was never seen before. I also think a lot of people still place high value on what Magic meant to the game of basketball during the 80's as he and Bird basically carried the league. That really is the only reason I can see someone having Bird ahead of Kobe as well because there is no other reason.

I just try not to debate it because everyone has their own opinion. I don't have a problem myself with Magic ahead of Kobe but I've never agreed with those who put Bird ahead of Kobe.

Yeahhh that, and Bird actually had far better stats and was a 3x MVP and top 2 another 4 times. Kobe's case over Larry is his longevity, not his prime.

Bostonjorge
03-02-2015, 01:49 AM
We don't know how many years Kobe will play and who he will be playing with. Rings and where he lands on each all time stats list will help him climb the all time list.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 02:04 AM
We don't know how many years Kobe will play and who he will be playing with. Rings and where he lands on each all time stats list will help him climb the all time list.

I dont care how many years Kobe plays, anything he does from here on out would be far beneath what he displayed in his prime. That much is obvious.

Its funny how you base his legacy on who he gets to play with, rather than focusing on how well he actually plays. I could give 2 ***** about any ring Kobe wins from here on out, its not like him winning in a reduced role would sway anyone. Now if you tell me he leads his team to another chip, we obviously have a different story, but I dont expect that. All that would move Kobe up is an elite level of play, anything short of that is just a nice back end to an injury plagued dropoff.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 02:06 AM
I don't knwo why Magic would be higher than Kobe in on any list. People discount Kobe's championships with Shaq but Magic played with Kareem all the way.

Magic made his teammates better unlike anyone else. At least thats what it appears to look like.

Still, I would love to see an honest comparison of the championships won by both Kobe and Magic. How would you rank their runs?

Bostonjorge
03-02-2015, 02:24 AM
I dont care how many years Kobe plays, anything he does from here on out would be far beneath what he displayed in his prime. That much is obvious.

Its funny how you base his legacy on who he gets to play with, rather than focusing on how well he actually plays. I could give 2 ***** about any ring Kobe wins from here on out, its not like him winning in a reduced role would sway anyone. Now if you tell me he leads his team to another chip, we obviously have a different story, but I dont expect that. All that would move Kobe up is an elite level of play, anything short of that is just a nice back end to an injury plagued dropoff.
Kobe can't win with out the right help like every other player in the league today. If Kobe gets the help and can adjust his game after terrible injurys then that will only help his legecy. Full circle. Even if Kobe landed 4 all stars to play with, aslong as he finds a way to be effectted on a championship team then it counts. Especially if he passes Malone on the all time scoring list along the way.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 02:39 AM
Kobe can't win with out the right help like every other player in the league today. If Kobe gets the help and can adjust his game after terrible injurys then that will only help his legecy. Full circle. Even if Kobe landed 4 all stars to play with, aslong as he finds a way to be effectted on a championship team then it counts. Especially if he passes Malone on the all time scoring list along the way.

"It counts" very little is my point. Gary Payton found a way to be "effective" on a championship team, you dont see anyone using that to prop him up vs the Ringless John Stockton, do you?

So passing a guy who never won a ring is suppose to mean something? I guess it would make his case more romantic, especially given how much Malone wants to punch him out.

If Kobe is a liability on route to a chip, does it "still count"?

TylerSL
03-02-2015, 02:54 AM
My top 15 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Hakeem Olajuwan
7. Shaquille O'Neil
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bill Russell

Kobe is right there 10-11 because Lebron is going to pass him sooner rather than later IMO.

Sadds The Gr8
03-02-2015, 03:07 AM
7-9 area

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 03:21 AM
Yeahhh that, and Bird actually had far better stats and was a 3x MVP and top 2 another 4 times. Kobe's case over Larry is his longevity, not his prime.

Bird was a legitimate 6'9" vs a weak 6'5" (Kobe claims 6'4.25"), which would explain Bird's superior rebounding stats. Also, the pace of play was higher in bird's era.

Bird's prime was completely ridiculous, however, making him a very clear top 5 all time. Considering Bird's superior shooting ability, I would pick Bird over LBJ as well. Add to that, Bird wanted the game deciding shot far more than LBJ.


I don't knwo why Magic would be higher than Kobe in on any list. People discount Kobe's championships with Shaq but Magic played with Kareem all the way.

Kobe played with a prime Shaq, whereas Magic played with a past his prime but still very good version of Kareem during their championship years.


We've had this thread a lot of times before, but considering he's pretty close to retirement and it's been a while, this is probably relevant again. The last time I ranked him, I had him at 11th, and that hasn't changed at this point. In no particular order, I have the following players ahead of him:
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Larry Bird

I would put the 8 players bolded ahead of Kobe.

One could make a strong case for Dream as well, considering his superior level of play as a two time finals mvp, and overall resume. However, Kobe does have 5 chips overall. In their respective primes, I take Dream over Kobe, no question.

LBJ has a far bigger impact on the game than Kobe has ever had, and may very well win another title or two in the future, but he's only 29 and it's difficult to put LBJ ahead of Kobe as of now, considering Kobe's 19 season career and 5 rings.

What I can say however is that the 10 players listed above have/had a far bigger impact on the game and are/were far more dominant than Kobe was. There is no question, that when comparing primes, all 10 players listed were better than prime Kobe.


My top 15 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Hakeem Olajuwan
7. Shaquille O'Neil
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bill Russell

Kobe is right there 10-11 because Lebron is going to pass him sooner rather than later IMO.

There are a number of players I would take over a prime Kobe in addition to the consensus 8-10 players ahead of him, if I were able to pick a prime version of each player to start a team. This includes players such as Dirk, Garnett, as well as Ewing and DRob.

Kobe has a very odd legacy since he was such a fantastic 2nd option during the Shaq/Kobe era, and a very flawed and inefficient #1 option during the 2 Gasol/Kobe championship seasons.

Kobe is without question the 2nd best scoring guard of all time, but his place among the GOAT is still unsettled with great point guards such as Magic and possibly Oscar ahead of him. Then, there are bigs such as Hakeem and DRob with fewer rings who had such a freakish impact on the game, albeit unfortunately overlapping with Jordan's reign of supremacy.

Add to that the "what have you done for me lately" and average age of posters on this forum, and the bizarre skew from #1 (WTF?!?) to top 15 is understandable.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 03:37 AM
My top 15 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Hakeem Olajuwan
7. Shaquille O'Neil
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bill Russell

Kobe is right there 10-11 because Lebron is going to pass him sooner rather than later IMO.

I love this list. Its spot on. I would put james in front of Kobe but the list is on point.

Phantom Dreamer
03-02-2015, 06:07 AM
Probably between 15-20. People putting him in the Top 10 are only doing it because his career is still fresh in our memories.

Zefflin
03-02-2015, 06:08 AM
This thread again?

Here is your answer. If you don't like Kobe, he's just outside your top 10.

If you love Kobe, he is in your top 5.

If you are an objective person, he ranks from 7 to 10.

There's your answer. /thread.

Exactly, which is why I have him at 6 on most days...when I'm debating a particularly stupid person I'll throw him in the top 5 because I can still easily defend that case too and I like to spite the kobe haters.

Goose17
03-02-2015, 06:32 AM
Am I really the only person that would put Olajuwon over KAJ?

jaydubb
03-02-2015, 08:13 AM
Am I really the only person that would put Olajuwon over KAJ?

Probably the biased rocket fans would agree with you too.. I think most will rank KAJ over Hakeem tho for several reasons.. Nothing against dream, it's just Kareem was that good.

jaydubb
03-02-2015, 08:15 AM
Right now I'd put kobe somewhere between 5-10..
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Tim Duncan
Kobe

I'd probably rank him around #6 or #7

mightybosstone
03-02-2015, 08:24 AM
Top 10 for sure (anyone who argues against that is an idiot)I assure you I'm not an idiot and I do not have him in my top ten. Maybe you should actually provide a post with some substance and evidence before you make a blanket statement insulting half of PSD. Because this post very much makes you look like an idiot.

mightybosstone
03-02-2015, 08:31 AM
This thread again?

Here is your answer. If you don't like Kobe, he's just outside your top 10.

If you love Kobe, he is in your top 5.

If you are an objective person, he ranks from 7 to 10.

There's your answer. /thread.My personal feelings on the guy have absolutely nothing to do with it. I hated Shaq for most of his career and Duncan for his entire career, but I have Duncan probably around top 5 and Shaq in my top 10. I also wasn't the biggest Jordan fan growing up, but that doesn't prevent me from ranking him first.

The only player I hate so much that it might slightly cloud my judgment is Karl Malone. I admit I probably do not give that son of a ***** as much credit as I suppose he deserves.

SanAntonioSpurs23
03-02-2015, 08:32 AM
Somewhere behind Duncan. I'd say 5-8 range

PhillyFaninLA
03-02-2015, 08:36 AM
5th best Laker (at best) and outside of top 10.

FraziersKnicks
03-02-2015, 08:41 AM
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Tim Duncan
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant

2/3 are interchangeable as are 4/5 depending on my mood.

Goose17
03-02-2015, 09:09 AM
Right now I'd put kobe somewhere between 5-10..
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Tim Duncan
Kobe

I'd probably rank him around #6 or #7

Really? 7th? I hate making all time lists, different era, different game. But if I had to I don't think Kobe would be in my top 10. He would probably be 11th/12th. Maybe 10th at the very best.


You might be right about KAJ, I guess I just prefer Olajuwons game.

sammyvine
03-02-2015, 09:23 AM
top 15

me personally top 10

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 10:01 AM
10-12 range probably. Possibly inside the top 10 if you want to adjust for current era. But I think he's probably right around 11th all-time, second best shooting guard of all-time though.

The following are all ahead of him (as another poster said earlier)

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Larry Bird


And then guys like Dirk, Robinson, Barkley are all close to him

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 10:08 AM
This thread again?

Here is your answer. If you don't like Kobe, he's just outside your top 10.

If you love Kobe, he is in your top 5.

If you are an objective person, he ranks from 7 to 10.

There's your answer. /thread.

How is 7th-10th all-time objectively?

Let's talk numbers

15th all-time in Win Shares, a stat that values his longevity
38th in WS/48
19th all-time in PER
28th all-time in BPM
15th in VORP all-time

The only thing he is top 10 in that has any value is all-time points (3rd), but this comes with having taken the 3rd most field goal attempts all-time, and this comes with having missed the most field goal attempts of all-time.

I have him in the 10-12 range. I find that to be a favorable place for him.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 10:28 AM
My top 15 all time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Hakeem Olajuwan
7. Shaquille O'Neil
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. David Robinson
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bill Russell

Kobe is right there 10-11 because Lebron is going to pass him sooner rather than later IMO.

I'd take Kobe over Oscar and Bird over Oscar. Oscar has no business being in the top 10 unless you're looking at just numbers

valade16
03-02-2015, 11:00 AM
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Larry Bird

The big question is which of these guys do you think Kobe Bryant should be ahead of? Because those are who he has to beat to get into the Top 10.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 11:30 AM
I do think kobe is the only 5x NBA champion who's also an all time great to get left out of the top 10 on a lot of peoples lists.

valade16
03-02-2015, 11:44 AM
I do think kobe is the only 5x NBA champion who's also an all time great to get left out of the top on a lot of peoples lists. Which I wonder about

John Havlicek has 8 Championships and is nowhere near the Top 10.
Bob Cousy has 6 Championships and is nowhere near the Top 10.
George Mikan has 5 Championships and is nowhere near the Top 10.

Of course, maybe it's because they played a long time ago.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 11:51 AM
I do think kobe is the only 5x NBA champion who's also an all time great to get left out of the top 10 on a lot of peoples lists.

Basketball is a TEAM game, you have to rank individuals on what they do individually while they are on the team, such as isos, man to man defense, steals, blocks, fts, and other things which the team has minimal impact on. An accomplishment like a ring is for the team, where its a machine and every cogg is equally important, guys like fisher or horry have equal amounts responsibility for a ring as kobe or shaq had.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 12:17 PM
Basketball is a TEAM game, you have to rank individuals on what they do individually while they are on the team, such as isos, man to man defense, steals, blocks, fts, and other things which the team has minimal impact on. An accomplishment like a ring is for the team, where its a machine and every cogg is equally important, guys like fisher or horry have equal amounts responsibility for a ring as kobe or shaq had.

Forgot the green font there buddy. The question for this extreme stance then becomes this, how much credit do those role players get and how many chips do they need to ever be thought of in higher light than a superior player?

Like how many chips until someone ranks Horry/Fish above the likes of say Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers.

thaShady
03-02-2015, 12:22 PM
3rd.

MJ
Shaq
Kobe

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 12:29 PM
John Havlicek has 8 Championships and is nowhere near the Top 10.
Bob Cousy has 6 Championships and is nowhere near the Top 10.
George Mikan has 5 Championships and is nowhere near the Top 10.

Of course, maybe it's because they played a long time ago.

That's why I said a guy who's considered an all time great. Those guys u just named never get there names brought up as an all time great like how Kobe's has

Legend_23
03-02-2015, 12:34 PM
All of you who rate Kobe out of the top 10, dislike him. For whatever reason that is, thats fine. But you still have to give credit where credit is due. The man has 5x rings, 2x finals mvp, season MVP, 17 All star selections etc, but more importantly he has a passion, commitment, dedication to the game which is UNHEARD OF. That, combined with his other accomplishes (dunk contest winner, youngest all-star, FIRST EVER to 30k points, 6k assists, etc, make him an INSTANT TOP 5 basketball player of all time. Just because he isn't as likeable as a Duncan, Jordan, Bird, Magic, doesn't mean he's not as good (or in some cases) better than them when it comes to basketball.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 12:35 PM
Basketball is a TEAM game, you have to rank individuals on what they do individually while they are on the team, such as isos, man to man defense, steals, blocks, fts, and other things which the team has minimal impact on. An accomplishment like a ring is for the team, where its a machine and every cogg is equally important, guys like fisher or horry have equal amounts responsibility for a ring as kobe or shaq had.

A ring is a team accomplishment but rings are also a big part of what makes a franchise type of players legacy as an individual.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 12:42 PM
That's why I said a guy who's considered an all time great. Those guys u just named never get there names brought up as an all time great like how Kobe's has

:laugh: Of course they do. They are all top 50 players of all-time.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 12:44 PM
I dont care how many years Kobe plays, anything he does from here on out would be far beneath what he displayed in his prime. That much is obvious.

Its funny how you base his legacy on who he gets to play with, rather than focusing on how well he actually plays. I could give 2 ***** about any ring Kobe wins from here on out, its not like him winning in a reduced role would sway anyone. Now if you tell me he leads his team to another chip, we obviously have a different story, but I dont expect that. All that would move Kobe up is an elite level of play, anything short of that is just a nice back end to an injury plagued dropoff.

Did Kidd's ring on the Mav's help his legacy?

nickdymez
03-02-2015, 12:49 PM
Top 10 for sure (anyone who argues against that is an idiot)
In PSD land, Kobe was never that good. In real life, he's probably 5-7. Here? Maybe 35th..

nickdymez
03-02-2015, 12:56 PM
How is 7th-10th all-time objectively?

Let's talk numbers

15th all-time in Win Shares, a stat that values his longevity
38th in WS/48
19th all-time in PER
28th all-time in BPM
15th in VORP all-time

The only thing he is top 10 in that has any value is all-time points (3rd), but this comes with having taken the 3rd most field goal attempts all-time, and this comes with having missed the most field goal attempts of all-time.

I have him in the 10-12 range. I find that to be a favorable place for him.
Nobody cares about those stupid *** made up stats. If you took the time to watch this man play, your opinion would change. Don't tell me you watched him and all your talking about is "ws" and "per"

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 12:57 PM
Nobody cares about those stupid *** made up stats. If you took the time to watch this man play, your opinion would change. Don't tell me you watched him and all your talking about is "ws" and "per"

I did watch him play.

And Jordan, and others.

I've actually watched more guys than just him play.

That's why I don't think he's a top 10 player, and his numbers don't support the narrative that he is either.

I don't know of anyone who isn't a lakers fan that has him inside their top 8, and to think of it further, inside their top 10.

Just laker/kobe fans.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 01:06 PM
In PSD land, Kobe was never that good. In real life, he's probably 5-7. Here? Maybe 35th..

Couldn't agree more lmao

nickdymez
03-02-2015, 01:09 PM
I did watch him play.

And Jordan, and others.

I've actually watched more guys than just him play.

That's why I don't think he's a top 10 player, and his numbers don't support the narrative that he is either.

I don't know of anyone who isn't a lakers fan that has him inside their top 8, and to think of it further, inside their top 10.

Just laker/kobe fans.
It's hard to believe this post. If you've actually watched Kobe play, you would have seen some of the greatest moments in NBA history. But your probably a kings fan or something, so you hate the fact that kobe torched your team all these years.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 01:25 PM
It's hard to believe this post. If you've actually watched Kobe play, you would have seen some of the greatest moments in NBA history. But your probably a kings fan or something, so you hate the fact that kobe torched your team all these years.

Why would I be a Kings fans?

So because I don't worship at the alter of Kobe, I must be a fan of some rival?


I don't have a favorite NBA team. I live in Missouri, we don't have a team. I enjoy the game.

Kobe is over-rated because while a great scorer, he played me-first basketball too much and tried to be like MJ, but didn't have MJ's talent.

Kobe was/is an all-time great. But no, others have provided more to the game in their careers than Kobe.



Your line of thinking is difficult. You, a laker fan, believe he is 5-7th. Others in here, non-laker fans, see him 10-15th.

Someone posts statistics showing that he isn't 5-7. You say they are made up, and accuse the person of never watching the guy play.

Person responds he saw him play, he just wasn't a top 10 guy.

You then accuse said person of being a rival fan.

It's not just blind hate or something. Kobe is over-rated, and it's laker fans doing it. Nice career, nice longevity, nice scorer. Not quite top 10

nickdymez
03-02-2015, 01:26 PM
Why would I be a Kings fans?

So because I don't worship at the alter of Kobe, I must be a fan of some rival?


I don't have a favorite NBA team. I live in Missouri, we don't have a team. I enjoy the game.

Kobe is over-rated because while a great scorer, he played me-first basketball too much and tried to be like MJ, but didn't have MJ's talent.

Kobe was/is an all-time great. But no, others have provided more to the game in their careers than Kobe.



Your line of thinking is difficult. You, a laker fan, believe he is 5-7th. Others in here, non-laker fans, see him 10-15th.

Someone posts statistics showing that he isn't 5-7. You say they are made up, and accuse the person of never watching the guy play.

Person responds he saw him play, he just wasn't a top 10 guy.

You then accuse said person of being a rival fan.

It's not just blind hate or something. Kobe is over-rated, and it's laker fans doing it. Nice career, nice longevity, nice scorer. Not quite top 10
Ok you're right, Kobe isn't top ten. Lol. You've convinced me

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 01:33 PM
Top 10 for sure (anyone who argues against that is an idiot)
In PSD land, Kobe was never that good. In real life, he's probably 5-7. Here? Maybe 35th..

Pretty much. The funniest part is how everyone that claims to be objective and has him outside of their top 10 "coincidentally"....oh by the way......just so happen to hate Kobe, everything he stands for, and are more than likely spreadsheet and calculator guys.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 01:39 PM
playing 4 more years won't drop his ranking, not for me.

in no order

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic
LeBron


those guys are without a doubt ahead of him for me.

Russell/Bird/Kobe

I will listen to an argument all day over these 3. So, #9 best case, #11 worst case for me.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 01:43 PM
It's hard to believe this post. If you've actually watched Kobe play, you would have seen some of the greatest moments in NBA history. But your probably a kings fan or something, so you hate the fact that kobe torched your team all these years.

laker fans are people like the rest of us. they get caught up in the moment, and remember the highs much more than the lows. you have to take a laker fans opinion on Kobe with a serious grain of salt, just as you do a bulls fans opinion on Jordan, a cavs fans view on Lebron, etc. it's the unaffected that have the most level view.

JLynn943
03-02-2015, 01:45 PM
playing 4 more years won't drop his ranking, not for me.

in no order

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic
LeBron


those guys are without a doubt ahead of him for me.

Russell/Bird/Kobe

I will listen to an argument all day over these 3. So, #9 best case, #11 worst case for me.

Yeah, this is pretty much my opinion as well. He's borderline top 10.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 01:48 PM
Pretty much. The funniest part is how everyone that claims to be objective and has him outside of their top 10 "coincidentally"....oh by the way......just so happen to hate Kobe, everything he stands for, and are more than likely spreadsheet and calculator guys.

so in other words objective and unattached, which is pretty well the only foundation from which solid logic can safely be derived. so, you know, there's that.

if you wanted an honest opinion of a kid, would you ask his mom for the assessment? or a classmate?

mRc08
03-02-2015, 01:49 PM
Hard for me to give him a ranking, especially because I haven't seen so many of the legends play who are supposedly ahead of him (wilt, bird, magic, etc).

Still, I think he was the most important player to the NBA for his era. I'd say from 2000 to 2010 he was the face of the NBA, and arguably the best player. Sure, those like Duncan may have been better players, but he took the torch from Jordan and became "that guy" until Lebron took it from him. I think there is something to be said for that when you think of his overall ranking. He was a very important player to the NBA post Jordan, love him or hate him. What I do like about kobe is his consciousness of NBA history, and his place in it. I think we want all of our current team's players thinking this way, and probably like to think we would approach the game with the same aspirations if we were ever to be in the league as fans. So, I think he was crucial to the NBA and where it is today, and in terms of skill, on any given night he COULD play like the greatest player of all time. When you start comparing MJ, lebron, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, etc., I think the bar is close and your really getting into an impossible argument. Sure I believe MJ is the best because of his stats and awards, but if prime kobe were to play a prime Jordan over 100 games with identical teams, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe out performed Jordan on a decent number of those matchups. In his prime, he was really, really good. He gets so much hate on PSD, but he had a dominant stretch nobody can argue.

HoopsDrive
03-02-2015, 01:51 PM
#10 if I had to place him. Within a range, 9-11 sounds about right.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 01:57 PM
I don't know of anyone who isn't a lakers fan that has him inside their top 8, and to think of it further, inside their top 10.

Just laker/kobe fans.

Allow me to introduce myself... :)

I have him #5.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 02:00 PM
Allow me to introduce myself... :)

I have him #5.

Hey, there we go.

Would you mind listing your top 10?

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 02:02 PM
Hard for me to give him a ranking, especially because I haven't seen so many of the legends play who are supposedly ahead of him (wilt, bird, magic, etc).

Still, I think he was the most important player to the NBA for his era. I'd say from 2000 to 2010 he was the face of the NBA, and arguably the best player. Sure, those like Duncan may have been better players, but he took the torch from Jordan and became "that guy" until Lebron took it from him. I think there is something to be said for that when you think of his overall ranking. He was a very important player to the NBA post Jordan, love him or hate him. What I do like about kobe is his consciousness of NBA history, and his place in it. I think we want all of our current team's players thinking this way, and probably like to think we would approach the game with the same aspirations if we were ever to be in the league as fans. So, I think he was crucial to the NBA and where it is today, and in terms of skill, on any given night he COULD play like the greatest player of all time. When you start comparing MJ, lebron, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, etc., I think the bar is close and your really getting into an impossible argument. Sure I believe MJ is the best because of his stats and awards, but if prime kobe were to play a prime Jordan over 100 games with identical teams, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe out performed Jordan on a decent number of those matchups. In his prime, he was really, really good. He gets so much hate on PSD, but he had a dominant stretch nobody can argue.

I hear the nostalgia here.

But I don't see the prime peak that you speak of.

Was he ever really the best player in the game? Statistically at least, he wasn't.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 02:03 PM
Hey, there we go.

Would you mind listing your top 10?

#1.) Michael Jordan
#2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#3.) Magic Johnson
#4.) Tim Duncan
#5.) Kobe Bryant
#6.) Bill Russell
#7.) Shaquille O'Neal
#8.) LeBron James
#9.) Larry Bird
#10.) Wilt Chamberlain
#11.) Hakeem Olajuwon

mRc08
03-02-2015, 02:15 PM
I hear the nostalgia here.

But I don't see the prime peak that you speak of.

Was he ever really the best player in the game? Statistically at least, he wasn't.

I think the 2008-2009 season was the top of his game for me. Was third in the league in scoring, won the championship, and bounced back after loosing the Celtics in the finals the year before. It was mid his second finals run with the gasol crew and I think he was on top his game.

He might not have been the best player in the league that season, lebron was strong as was Wade. But he was right there. He probably could have averaged higher scoring totals and others statistics, but I think he had a bigger role to take than volume shooter that year.

You do bring up good points though. If you look at each of his seasons individually there is noting too eye popping, where he was clearly the best player on the planet. But his body of work and prolonged ability to put up those numbers helps fill that void. In other words, his longevity at a high level helps me feel better about him not having that 1 or 2 utterly dominate season (at least compared to others in the league)

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 02:16 PM
I think the 2008-2009 season was the top of his game for me. Was third in the league in scoring, won the championship, and bounced back after loosing the Celtics in the finals the year before. It was mid his second finals run with the gasol crew and I think he was on top his game.

He might not have been the best player in the league that season, lebron was strong as was Wade. But he was right there. He probably could have averaged higher scoring totals and others statistics, but I think he had a bigger role to take than volume shooter that year.

You do bring up good points though. If you look at each of his seasons individually there is noting too eye popping, where he was clearly the best player on the planet. But his body of work and prolonged ability to put up those numbers helps fill that void. In other words, his longevity at a high level helps me feel better about him not having that 1 or 2 utterly dominate season (at least compared to others in the league)

I understand, and yeah good points.

Goose17
03-02-2015, 02:48 PM
Pretty much. The funniest part is how everyone that claims to be objective and has him outside of their top 10 "coincidentally"....oh by the way......just so happen to hate Kobe, everything he stands for, and are more than likely spreadsheet and calculator guys.

Huh?

I don't hate him. I do dislike his rapey tendencies but outside of that I have nothing against him.

I put a lot of value into stats (assuming that's what you meant by spreadsheet guys) but I don't judge people solely on that. I believe to form a proper opinion you have to look at ALL of the information available and not just disregard stuff that doesn't support with my way of thinking.

And what does he stand for? Not sure what you meant by that.

Anyway, I don't fit into the categories you listed and I have him somewhere between 10 and 12/13.

Minimal
03-02-2015, 02:54 PM
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabaar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Magic Johnson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 03:06 PM
Pretty much. The funniest part is how everyone that claims to be objective and has him outside of their top 10 "coincidentally"....oh by the way......just so happen to hate Kobe, everything he stands for, and are more than likely spreadsheet and calculator guys.

Huh?

I don't hate him. I do dislike his rapey tendencies but outside of that I have nothing against him.

I put a lot of value into stats (assuming that's what you meant by spreadsheet guys) but I don't judge people solely on that. I believe to form a proper opinion you have to look at ALL of the information available and not just disregard stuff that doesn't support with my way of thinking.

And what does he stand for? Not sure what you meant by that.

Anyway, I don't fit into the categories you listed and I have him somewhere between 10 and 12/13.

The fact that you even mentioned "rapey tendencies" does nothing but validate my point further.

I have yet to see any basketball fan without some sort of animosity, be it personal or for what they deem to be "hero ball," put Kobe outside their top 10.

Do you seriously see that as sheer coincidence?

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 03:12 PM
Pretty much. The funniest part is how everyone that claims to be objective and has him outside of their top 10 "coincidentally"....oh by the way......just so happen to hate Kobe, everything he stands for, and are more than likely spreadsheet and calculator guys.

so in other words objective and unattached, which is pretty well the only foundation from which solid logic can safely be derived. so, you know, there's that.

if you wanted an honest opinion of a kid, would you ask his mom for the assessment? or a classmate?

Do you seriously call yourself objective and unattached when YOU have not only gone out of the way to express your disdain for him, but actually go so far as to rant and rave about how you can't wait until he retires and his "era of hero basketball" (your exact words) is over?

Technically that would be the polar opposite of unattached and objective. If this were a Kobe trial you'd be excused from the jury.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 03:14 PM
The fact that you even mentioned "rapey tendencies" does nothing but validate my point further.

I have yet to see any basketball fan without some sort of animosity, be it personal or for what they deem to be "hero ball," put Kobe outside their top 10.

Do you seriously see that as sheer coincidence?

Agreed. It's Why i lold at the people who wouldn't take a player who made their team better in the other thread

Ticket Guy IL
03-02-2015, 03:15 PM
First you have to ask yourself what attributes are you looking at?

-Championships -leadership -unique -tenacity -ability to dominate -ability to do anything on the court
-points- shooting- dunking- rebounding at there position -passing -ability to make others better.

I just watched the documentary on Showtime. Kobe is all of the above. I grew up believing no one
would ever surpass Jordan. Now take all those attributes above and ask yourself about Lebron.

I think the big one that LeBron lacks is leadership and tenacity.

#1 Jordan
#2 Bryant

Rivera
03-02-2015, 03:16 PM
8-12

FraziersKnicks
03-02-2015, 03:23 PM
First you have to ask yourself what attributes are you looking at?

-Championships -leadership -unique -tenacity -ability to dominate -ability to do anything on the court
-points- shooting- dunking- rebounding at there position -passing -ability to make others better.

I just watched the documentary on Showtime. Kobe is all of the above. I grew up believing no one
would ever surpass Jordan. Now take all those attributes above and ask yourself about Lebron.

I think the big one that LeBron lacks is leadership and tenacity.

#1 Jordan
#2 Bryant

Funny how you left out defense but included dunking.

mightybosstone
03-02-2015, 03:23 PM
#1.) Michael Jordan
#2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#3.) Magic Johnson
#4.) Tim Duncan
#5.) Kobe Bryant
#6.) Bill Russell
#7.) Shaquille O'Neal
#8.) LeBron James
#9.) Larry Bird
#10.) Wilt Chamberlain
#11.) Hakeem OlajuwonOlajuwon is not in top 10. Therefore your argument is invalid.

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 03:26 PM
The fact that you even mentioned "rapey tendencies" does nothing but validate my point further.

I have yet to see any basketball fan without some sort of animosity, be it personal or for what they deem to be "hero ball," put Kobe outside their top 10.

Do you seriously see that as sheer coincidence?

Agreed. It's Why i lold at the people who wouldn't take a player who made their team better in the other thread

You pulling a early April fools on me bruh? That like twice in 30 days you've actually agreed with me...

Goose17
03-02-2015, 03:26 PM
The fact that you even mentioned "rapey tendencies" does nothing but validate my point further.

I have yet to see any basketball fan without some sort of animosity, be it personal or for what they deem to be "hero ball," put Kobe outside their top 10.

Do you seriously see that as sheer coincidence?

I won't apologise for not condoning rape.

And yes, I do see it as a coincidence, most of the people with Kobe sitting between 9th and 12th are the people who are unbiased. It's the people who have him in the top 5 all time that are obviously biased, clearly homers.

Again, I don't dislike him let alone hate him. I don't condone the rape stuff but that's one (big) mistake that has nothing to do with basketball, therefore shouldn't effect his ranking and doesn't even come into it when I rank him.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 03:50 PM
You pulling a early April fools on me bruh? That like twice in 30 days you've actually agreed with me...

I was the one who originally said it in that GM thread. You are ****ing ridiculous if you pass on a prime Kobe because you don't like him.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 04:00 PM
The fact that you even mentioned "rapey tendencies" does nothing but validate my point further.

I have yet to see any basketball fan without some sort of animosity, be it personal or for what they deem to be "hero ball," put Kobe outside their top 10.

Do you seriously see that as sheer coincidence?

i ask this in all seriousness and with respect:

if we start from the assumption that human beings generally do things for a reason (whether we know what it is, or agree with it is irrelevant), what is the rational in your opinion for why lots of people don't like hero ball? would it not be that they think it's generally ineffective? and wouldn't that be a pretty sensible reason for those people to put Kobe lower?

you act like it's some conspiracy when in fact it makes perfect sense. less selfish, more efficient play would have made him a better player.

Bostonjorge
03-02-2015, 04:01 PM
What about Kobe eliminating Duncan more then any player. While also leading his team in the stats department every time. How can Duncan be ranked higher then Kobe?

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 04:07 PM
Do you seriously call yourself objective and unattached when YOU have not only gone out of the way to express your disdain for him, but actually go so far as to rant and rave about how you can't wait until he retires and his "era of hero basketball" (your exact words) is over?

Technically that would be the polar opposite of unattached and objective. If this were a Kobe trial you'd be excused from the jury.

i can totally see why you are confused. you have taken a simple opinion that basketball is better off without players of Kobe's ilk, expressed in posts that rarely exceed 25 words and in impersonal language, and transformed them into something much more than that. my posts must be positively screaming at you through your monitor in whatever padded room you are posting from.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 04:09 PM
i ask this in all seriousness and with respect:

if we start from the assumption that human beings generally do things for a reason (whether we know what it is, or agree with it is irrelevant), what is the rational in your opinion for why lots of people don't like hero ball? would it not be that they think it's generally ineffective? and wouldn't that be a pretty sensible reason for those people to put Kobe lower?

you act like it's some conspiracy when in fact it makes perfect sense. less selfish, more efficient play would have made him a better player.

What's hero ball?

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 04:25 PM
i ask this in all seriousness and with respect:

if we start from the assumption that human beings generally do things for a reason (whether we know what it is, or agree with it is irrelevant), what is the rational in your opinion for why lots of people don't like hero ball? would it not be that they think it's generally ineffective? and wouldn't that be a pretty sensible reason for those people to put Kobe lower?

you act like it's some conspiracy when in fact it makes perfect sense. less selfish, more efficient play would have made him a better player.

What's hero ball?

Short simple answer: whatever he defines it as.

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 04:27 PM
Do you seriously call yourself objective and unattached when YOU have not only gone out of the way to express your disdain for him, but actually go so far as to rant and rave about how you can't wait until he retires and his "era of hero basketball" (your exact words) is over?

Technically that would be the polar opposite of unattached and objective. If this were a Kobe trial you'd be excused from the jury.

i can totally see why you are confused. you have taken a simple opinion that basketball is better off without players of Kobe's ilk, expressed in posts that rarely exceed 25 words and in impersonal language, and transformed them into something much more than that. my posts must be positively screaming at you through your monitor in whatever padded room you are posting from.

And here come the insults. Nice retort.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 04:40 PM
And here come the insults. Nice retort.

it was a sarcastic finish to a reasonable post. your characterization of my previous posts as ranting and raving is a joke and shows you aren't capable of a reasonable conversation about Kobe.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 04:46 PM
Short simple answer: whatever he defines it as.

you are just proving that you have no purpose in a kobe thread except to bait. you brought up hero ball, and then avoid serious questions that might poke holes in your "the world is against Kobe" paranoia.

nickdymez
03-02-2015, 05:03 PM
What about Kobe eliminating Duncan more then any player. While also leading his team in the stats department every time. How can Duncan be ranked higher then Kobe?
Because most people here hate Kobe.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 05:13 PM
Ok you're right, Kobe isn't top ten. Lol. You've convinced me

fun note he is making better arguments and giving valid points while you are just throwing out insults and using your own personal bias as weight to make your point and it isnt helping jump Kobe from 10-12 where most people have him to top 5 like you bias fans have him.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 05:14 PM
playing 4 more years won't drop his ranking, not for me.

in no order

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic
LeBron


those guys are without a doubt ahead of him for me.

Russell/Bird/Kobe

I will listen to an argument all day over these 3. So, #9 best case, #11 worst case for me.

Yup.... he could easily drop out of the top 12 as well over the next decade with guys like Dirk and about 2 others still playing at the level they are who are on the cusp of that argument.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 05:16 PM
Yup.... he could easily drop out of the top 12 as well over the next decade with guys like Dirk and about 2 others still playing at the level they are who are on the cusp of that argument.

I think we saw the end of Dirk moving up the ladder last year in the playoffs. He looked pretty bad by his standards. Not sure if there is a current star player that can overtake him right now that I didn't already have up there? Anthony Davis if he gets on the right team and stays healthy?? Durant has quick work to do if he has a chance.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 05:19 PM
#1.) Michael Jordan
#2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#3.) Magic Johnson
#4.) Tim Duncan
#5.) Kobe Bryant
#6.) Bill Russell
#7.) Shaquille O'Neal
#8.) LeBron James
#9.) Larry Bird
#10.) Wilt Chamberlain
#11.) Hakeem OlajuwonOlajuwon is not in top 10. Therefore your argument is invalid.

He didnt accomplish more than any of the players ahead of him as an individual or as a team player. If it was starting a team than the Dream is top 5 all-time...

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 05:19 PM
I was the one who originally said it in that GM thread. You are ****ing ridiculous if you pass on a prime Kobe because you don't like him.

only way I would pass on a prime Kobe is for a Prime Jordan/Shaq/James and maybe 3 others.... Still he is like 8-12 on my all time list lol

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 05:21 PM
What's hero ball?

Inefficient basketball that puts the spot light on 1 player and overrates said player because of his PPG without looking at the amount of shots he took to get there or the amount of turnovers he caused or was part of. Probably something like this.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 05:24 PM
I'd take Kobe over Duncan and still take him over Lebron.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 05:24 PM
He didnt accomplish more than any of the players ahead of him as an individual or as a team player. If it was starting a team than the Dream is top 5 all-time...

Fun fact

The Dream is the only player to ever win a championship without a teammate who produced at least a 18.0 PER and played at least 1500 minutes in a season.

The only example of a player actually winning a championship alone (I cut off the era mark at 1970).

That makes him look pretty special, don't you think?

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 05:28 PM
I was the one who originally said it in that GM thread. You are ****ing ridiculous if you pass on a prime Kobe because you don't like him.

Depending when you want to say his prime begins.....

If I was starting a franchise, and I could have an individual at the start of their prime, and run that franchise with that player....Kobe's peak is probably one of the first ten peaks I would select.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 05:30 PM
I'd take Kobe over Duncan and still take him over Lebron.

Laker fan?

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 05:33 PM
No I just value a guy who can close for me much more than a guy who is still iffy in that department. Y'all are underrating Kobe in his prime so much lol

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 05:43 PM
Depending when you want to say his prime begins.....

If I was starting a franchise, and I could have an individual at the start of their prime, and run that franchise with that player....Kobe's peak is probably one of the first ten peaks I would select.

Comparing peak vs. peak, and taking one player to start a team, there are at least a dozen players I would take ahead of Kobe:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic Johnson
Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Dream
Wilt Chamberlain
KG
Dirk
DRob
Patrick Ewing

#15: Kobe

In terms of overall legacy, I have no problem seeing Kobe ranked anywhere between 8 and 12.

In terms of his first 3 rings, there is no question that Shaq was the far more valuable piece. In addition, Stern's alleged manipulation of officiating, and the massive criticism the assoc. faced at the time regarding the credibility of game outcomes, tainted the Lakers' championship run, especially with regards to Sacramento.

Also, when you look at the strength of their eastern conference finals foes, the pacers, sixers and nets, they hardly rank among the great teams in NBA history.

And let's set aside dubious criteria such as winning a dunk contest.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 05:43 PM
No I just value a guy who can close for me much more than a guy who is still iffy in that department. Y'all are underrating Kobe in his prime so much lol

Close for you?

You mean, like hitting last second shots?

flea
03-02-2015, 05:44 PM
Fun fact

The Dream is the only player to ever win a championship without a teammate who produced at least a 18.0 PER and played at least 1500 minutes in a season.

The only example of a player actually winning a championship alone (I cut off the era mark at 1970).

That makes him look pretty special, don't you think?

Duncan did this as well in 2003.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 05:53 PM
Comparing peak vs. peak, and taking one player to start a team, there are at least a dozen players I would take ahead of Kobe:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic Johnson
Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Dream
Wilt Chamberlain
KG
Dirk
DRob
Patrick Ewing

#15: Kobe

In terms of overall legacy, I have no problem seeing Kobe ranked anywhere between 8 and 12.

In terms of his first 3 rings, there is no question that Shaq was the far more valuable piece. In addition, Stern's alleged manipulation of officiating, and the massive criticism the assoc. faced at the time regarding the credibility of game outcomes, tainted the Lakers' championship run, especially with regards to Sacramento.

Also, when you look at the strength of their eastern conference finals foes, the pacers, sixers and nets, they hardly rank among the great teams in NBA history.

And let's set aside dubious criteria such as winning a dunk contest.

Ewing? cmon

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:03 PM
Duncan did this as well in 2003.

Sure....I mean, technically, Robinson had a 17.8 PER

He also had Parker with 16.5 and Malik at a 16.1 PER

That's all pretty good company to have on your team.

But you are right.

Wonder how I missed that one.


Other notes:

Neither bad boy Pistons team had a single player that did this (1500 MP, 18.0 PER) they were that much of a team based team.

I also missed Gus Williams on the 78-79 Sonics....he like Duncan, had several players post a 16.0 PER though.

flea
03-02-2015, 06:04 PM
Fun fact

The Dream is the only player to ever win a championship without a teammate who produced at least a 18.0 PER and played at least 1500 minutes in a season.

The only example of a player actually winning a championship alone (I cut off the era mark at 1970).

That makes him look pretty special, don't you think?

Duncan did this as well in 2003.

Rick Barry as well, and Bill Walton came extremely close.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:04 PM
Ewing? cmon

A prime Ewing: 29 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 blocks, 55% FG, 78% FT. 27/11/3 the next season. 13 consecutive 20+ ppg seasons. 9 consecutive 20/10/2 seasons. 14 consecutive 17/8 seasons. This was against PRIME competition including Shaq, DRob, Dream, Detroit's bad boys and Jordan's Bulls, not to mention prime Barkley, Stockton and Karl Malone. Even the second tier talent such as GSW's TMC had hall of fame caliber talent.

The talent level across the board was so far superior to anything Kobe ever faced, there's no comparison.

Yeah, I would definitely take a dominant two way big over Kobe.

If I had to choose between Marc Gasol today and a peak version of Kobe, I take Gasol to start a team.

Kobe was in a very, very unique situation during his two title runs, benefiting from a dominant big, and the greatest coach in NBA history. In his first title run, Kobe and the Lakers leaned heavily on one of the greatest clutch shooters in NBA history in Robert Horry.

Perhaps it's a bit gauche, but it's widely acknowledged that league officiating was tilted very heavily in favor of the Lakers during their initial title run as well.

When you look at how much of a role Shaq, Gasol, Phil Jackson, Robert Horry and even NBA corrupt officiating at the time, I feel comfortable leaving Kobe out of a list of the top 13 or 14 most impactful players in nba history.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 06:06 PM
Close for you?

You mean, like hitting last second shots?

Close out games step up in the clutch. Those kinds of things

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:07 PM
Rick Barry as well, and Bill Walton came extremely close.

Looks like I'm gonna have to revise that parameter, I missed some guys.

Maybe I looked it up under one guy at 18.0 PER and 1500 MP, or two guys with 15.0 PER and 1500 MP?

Or maybe it was playoff numbers, of 18.0 PER by a team mate?

I don't remember, I had that arbitrary cut off a long time ago.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:08 PM
Close out games step up in the clutch. Those kinds of things

You do realize that Kobe was absolutely horrible in the clutch, right?

He is one of the worst shooters all-time in the final 24 seconds of the game.

This is well documented.

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 06:10 PM
Close out games step up in the clutch. Those kinds of things

You do realize that Kobe was absolutely horrible in the clutch, right?

He is one of the worst shooters all-time in the final 24 seconds of the game.

This is well documented.

Right because the last 24 seconds of a game is the stand alone undisputable definition of a clutch player.....

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:12 PM
A prime Ewing: 29 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 blocks, 55% FG, 78% FT.

Yeah, I would definitely take a dominant two way big over Kobe.

If I had to choose between Marc Gasol today and a peak version of Kobe, I take Gasol to start a team.

Kobe was in a very, very unique situation during his two title runs, benefiting from a dominant big, the greatest coach in NBA history, and one of the greatest clutch shooters in NBA history in Robert Horry.

Perhaps it's a bit gauche, but it's widely acknowledged that league officiating was tilted very heavily in favor of the Lakers during their initial title run as well.

in theory, the two way big does always have more value. But there are perimeter players over time with more value. Ewing shrank how many times in the playoffs? And don't even start in on Marc Gasol, cmon.

You are either incredibly underrated Kobe, or incredibly overrating the concept of the two way big.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:13 PM
Right because the last 24 seconds of a game is the stand alone undisputable definition of a clutch player.....

Kobe has almost always wanted the game deciding shot, dating back to his days with Shaq. So, based upon Kobe's own understanding of the importance of the game deciding possession, Kobe is decidedly below average compared to other all nba, all star caliber players of his era.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:14 PM
Right because the last 24 seconds of a game is the stand alone undisputable definition of a clutch player.....

Pick a parameter of what constitutes a 'clutch' shot, and you'll find that Kobe is not very good at those shots.

Certainly not compared to other all-star caliber players.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:15 PM
A prime Ewing: 29 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 blocks, 55% FG, 78% FT. 27/11/3 the next season. 13 consecutive 20+ ppg seasons. 9 consecutive 20/10/2 seasons. 14 consecutive 17/8 seasons. This was against PRIME competition including Shaq, DRob, Dream, Detroit's bad boys and Jordan's Bulls, not to mention prime Barkley, Stockton and Karl Malone. Even the second tier talent such as GSW's TMC had hall of fame caliber talent.

The talent level across the board was so far superior to anything Kobe ever faced, there's no comparison.

Yeah, I would definitely take a dominant two way big over Kobe.

If I had to choose between Marc Gasol today and a peak version of Kobe, I take Gasol to start a team.

Kobe was in a very, very unique situation during his two title runs, benefiting from a dominant big, and the greatest coach in NBA history. In his first title run, Kobe and the Lakers leaned heavily on one of the greatest clutch shooters in NBA history in Robert Horry.

Perhaps it's a bit gauche, but it's widely acknowledged that league officiating was tilted very heavily in favor of the Lakers during their initial title run as well.

When you look at how much of a role Shaq, Gasol, Phil Jackson, Robert Horry and even NBA corrupt officiating at the time, I feel comfortable leaving Kobe out of a list of the top 13 or 14 most impactful players in nba history.

you added some.

Ok, so Russell's achievements should fall off a ledge for you, he played with a zillion HOF'ers.

How was the talent across the board in the 90's better than it was in the 2000's? Falling in love with nostalgia..

If you want to play conspiracy for the officiating fine, but that isn't going to be the backbone of an argument.

if you are throwing Ewing, and Gasol in there, Kobe would slide to barely top 30-40 in your rankings right now. Cause there are a whole lotta players looking up at Kobe who are looking down on Patrick Ewing

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 06:16 PM
You do realize that Kobe was absolutely horrible in the clutch, right?

He is one of the worst shooters all-time in the final 24 seconds of the game.

This is well documented.

Wow you can't be serious right now LOL Kobe is highly known for taking over games late in the 4th. If you can't see Kobe was one of the best closers of all time then I don't know what to tell you smh

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 06:17 PM
Fun fact

The Dream is the only player to ever win a championship without a teammate who produced at least a 18.0 PER and played at least 1500 minutes in a season.

The only example of a player actually winning a championship alone (I cut off the era mark at 1970).

That makes him look pretty special, don't you think?

First of all, I would double-check your stats. Flea handled that pretty well. He also beat a team that was in the same situation as his own. Ewing was playing without any +18 PER teammates. It's arguably one of the weakest finals of the modern era. His playoff road to the finals was also littered with disgustingly bad centers. He beat Chris Dudley, Oliver Miller/Mark West, and Felton Spencer. That might be the ugliest pu-pu platter of opponent big men in playoff history. One impressive finals over Ewing isn't enough to catapult Hakeem into the top 10. If it was, I'd have a pretty hard time fitting Barry and Dirk in my top 10 as well.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:18 PM
in theory, the two way big does always have more value. But there are perimeter players over time with more value. Ewing shrank how many times in the playoffs? And don't even start in on Marc Gasol, cmon.

You are either incredibly underrated Kobe, or incredibly overrating the concept of the two way big.

Ewing averaged 20/10/2 for his career in the playoffs. This is against prime versions of Isaiah's Pistons, Jordan's championship Bulls, and Hakeem.

Kobe's first 3 rings were against the likes of Reggie Miller, Jason Kidd, and Allen Iverson. Fine players and teams in their own right, but inferior competition compared to the Dream Team era competition Ewing faced.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:18 PM
Pick a parameter of what constitutes a 'clutch' shot, and you'll find that Kobe is not very good at those shots.

Certainly not compared to other all-star caliber players.

I certainly don't disagree with you, but I always thought the term CLUTCH has too many meanings to actually mean something.

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 06:18 PM
Right because the last 24 seconds of a game is the stand alone undisputable definition of a clutch player.....

Kobe has almost always wanted the game deciding shot, dating back to his days with Shaq. So, based upon Kobe's own understanding of the importance of the game deciding possession, Kobe is decidedly below average compared to other all nba, all star caliber players of his era.

True but game deciding shot isn't the total embodiment of clutch. Its a debate that's been had here for years that I don't feel like rehashing but suffice to say there's a lot more that goes into it.

But yes, Kobe has always wanted and taken the last shot. Which is something that people don't consider when looking at those stats, how many other "stars" even had the guts to take those shots and not care about the criticism that comes with it make or miss?

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 06:19 PM
Kobe has almost always wanted the game deciding shot, dating back to his days with Shaq. So, based upon Kobe's own understanding of the importance of the game deciding possession, Kobe is decidedly below average compared to other all nba, all star caliber players of his era.

Kobe was the closer for those teams lol what are you gonna do give shaq the ball for the last shot?

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:19 PM
Wow you can't be serious right now LOL Kobe is highly known for taking over games late in the 4th. If you can't see Kobe was one of the best closers of all time then I don't know what to tell you smh

Because it's been well statistically documented that he is actually quite bad at this.

Maybe you have a biased memory like many people who perpetuate this false narrative, but it's been proven that he is a very inefficient player late in close games, taking a lot of forced, ill-advised shots and turning the ball over more per possession.

He costs the Lakers plenty of games with this. He has his heroic moments, but he has more disasters than successes.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:20 PM
Ewing averaged 20/10/2 for his career in the playoffs. This is against prime versions of Isaiah's Pistons, Jordan's championship Bulls, and Hakeem.

Kobe's first 3 rings were against the likes of Reggie Miller, Jason Kidd, and Allen Iverson. Fine players and teams in their own right, but inferior competition compared to the Dream Team era competition Ewing faced.

his efficiency and ability to hold the paint dipped come playoff time.

Kobe's 3 rings also came against going through a dominant west, and you are leaving all those players out.

Again, Ewing? Gross

flea
03-02-2015, 06:21 PM
Sure....I mean, technically, Robinson had a 17.8 PER

He also had Parker with 16.5 and Malik at a 16.1 PER

That's all pretty good company to have on your team.

But you are right.

Wonder how I missed that one.


Other notes:

Neither bad boy Pistons team had a single player that did this (1500 MP, 18.0 PER) they were that much of a team based team.

I also missed Gus Williams on the 78-79 Sonics....he like Duncan, had several players post a 16.0 PER though.

I dunno it's interesting to consider which was worse. Personally I think Duncan had the weakest cast I've seen, mainly because of youth. 38 year old Robinson is nice, but I'd rather have an in-prime Thorpe. And prime Bowen gives you a shot at the defensive end on the perimeter but the rest of that weight was on Duncan.

S-Jax was a 3rd year (and never really was a high-IQ player), Manu a rookie, and Parker a 2nd year 20 year old. That's a lot of guys that don't know the system very well yet. Maxwell and Smith were solid NBA veterans and while Cassell and Horry were both new to the league as well they were also 4-year college players and among the highest IQ players at their positions.

Either way, I don't think anyone can argue that these 2 teams required their sole star to do the most lifting - probably ever.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:22 PM
First of all, I would double-check your stats. Flea handled that pretty well. He also beat a team that was in the same situation as his own. Ewing was playing without any +18 PER teammates. It's arguably one of the weakest finals of the modern era. His playoff road to the finals was also littered with disgustingly bad centers. He beat Chris Dudley, Oliver Miller/Mark West, and Felton Spencer. That might be the ugliest pu-pu platter of opponent big men in playoff history. One impressive finals over Ewing isn't enough to catapult Hakeem into the top 10. If it was, I'd have a pretty hard time fitting Barry and Dirk in my top 10 as well.

He actually did this on both Finals teams.....


And an isolated incident of this alone doesn't move someone into the top 10, but it counters the argument that you made earlier "He didnt accomplish more than any of the players ahead of him as an individual or as a team player"

He may have done it the most alone

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:22 PM
Wow you can't be serious right now LOL Kobe is highly known for taking over games late in the 4th. If you can't see Kobe was one of the best closers of all time then I don't know what to tell you smh

Do you have the stats to back up this claim?

And if you do, do you realize that Kobe's "dominance" was largely predicated on Shaq being double and triple team every game?

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 06:25 PM
Because it's been well statistically documented that he is actually quite bad at this.

Maybe you have a biased memory like many people who perpetuate this false narrative, but it's been proven that he is a very inefficient player late in close games, taking a lot of forced, ill-advised shots and turning the ball over more per possession.

He costs the Lakers plenty of games with this. He has his heroic moments, but he has more disasters than successes.

Pretty sure any player who shoots the last shot in NBA history has missed more than they have made. Doesn't mean they aren't clutch. Not being clutch is when you were early Lebron just looking scared out there to do anything in the 4th. Kobe in his days was the one player that could bring you back from a double digit deficit in the 4th alone if he got on a shooting streak

valade16
03-02-2015, 06:26 PM
He didnt accomplish more than any of the players ahead of him as an individual or as a team player. If it was starting a team than the Dream is top 5 all-time...

I was going to say, we have to separate legacy and ability. If this list is the Top 10 greatest players ever Hakeem has the weakest argument.

He has the least amount of rings and he is tied for the least amount of MVPs. He also didn't have a longer career than say Duncan or Kobe.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:27 PM
Wow you can't be serious right now LOL Kobe is highly known for taking over games late in the 4th. If you can't see Kobe was one of the best closers of all time then I don't know what to tell you smh

Fun fact, Kobe has shot worse in the 4th quarter than any other quarter in every year of his career....except for 04-05, he shot worse in the 3rd quarter than the 4th that season and 07-08 he shot worse in the 2nd quarter....in both seasons, his second worst quarter was his 4th quarter.

In only two seasons, has he shot over 42% in the 4th quarter in his career, many seasons he is lower than 40%...this from a guy with a career .451%.

He isn't this elite closer than you are thinking he is.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:27 PM
you added some.

Ok, so Russell's achievements should fall off a ledge for you, he played with a zillion HOF'ers.

How was the talent across the board in the 90's better than it was in the 2000's? Falling in love with nostalgia..

If you want to play conspiracy for the officiating fine, but that isn't going to be the backbone of an argument.

if you are throwing Ewing, and Gasol in there, Kobe would slide to barely top 30-40 in your rankings right now. Cause there are a whole lotta players looking up at Kobe who are looking down on Patrick Ewing

In terms of impact and influence on a game, Kobe is outside the top 13 or 14 players of all time. I did not say I would choose 30 or 40 players of ahead of him. In terms of overall legacy and resume (championships, all nba appearances, career points) Kobe is 8 - 12.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 06:27 PM
He actually did this on both Finals teams.....


And an isolated incident of this alone doesn't move someone into the top 10, but it counters the argument that you made earlier "He didnt accomplish more than any of the players ahead of him as an individual or as a team player"

He may have done it the most alone

Dude what you are talking about... Drexler was great in 95. He averaged 21ppg/7rpg/5apg on a TS% of 59% and a PER of 21... That's a superstar teammate.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 06:27 PM
Do you have the stats to back up this claim?

And if you do, do you realize that Kobe's "dominance" was largely predicated on Shaq being double and triple team every game?

Have yall watched Kobe? It seems like none of you guys have seen Kobe play in his prime yrs smh Kobe's success did have alot to do with shaq being doubled team but it still doesnt take away the fact he was the closer for those lakers teams

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:33 PM
In terms of impact and influence on a game, Kobe is outside the top 13 or 14 players of all time. I did not say I would choose 30 or 40 players of ahead of him. In terms of overall legacy and resume (championships, all nba appearances, career points) Kobe is 8 - 12.

fair enough, I just look at it differently. You can see I have him 9-11, in no order worth fighting for..

numba1CHANGsta
03-02-2015, 06:33 PM
All that matters is that there are more Lakers in the Top 10 than any other team :cool:

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:33 PM
his efficiency and ability to hold the paint dipped come playoff time.

Kobe's 3 rings also came against going through a dominant west, and you are leaving all those players out.

Again, Ewing? Gross

Every star player's efficiency drops off in the playoffs. You're facing the best of the best. I have no idea what you mean by "holding the paint."

I don't know what's "gross" about Ewing.

As far as the Lakers' WC competition, his impact on outcomes as I have said repeatedly, has to be judged within the context of the Lakers' first option, Shaq being consistently double and triple teamed. Ewing was always the knicks' first option, facing double teams on a regular basis as well.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:33 PM
Pretty sure any player who shoots the last shot in NBA history has missed more than they have made. Doesn't mean they aren't clutch. Not being clutch is when you were early Lebron just looking scared out there to do anything in the 4th. Kobe in his days was the one player that could bring you back from a double digit deficit in the 4th alone if he got on a shooting streak

Except, Lebron has been better than Kobe in the 4th.

More assists, more field goals made, and he took less shots.

He clearly out played Kobe in the 4th. He may have looked scared to you, but he was accomplishing more than Kobe.


The problem with your memory, is that you are isolating the times he actually accomplished this, and ignoring the much larger number of times that he didn't do this (or didn't have to).

While other guys also did it.

Selective memory bias.

The numbers don't back up your argument.


Read this breakdown, let me know if you have any issues with what Abbott is saying


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:35 PM
Every player's efficiency drops off in the playoffs. You're facing the best of the best. I have no idea what you mean by "holding the paint."

As far as the Lakers' WC competition, his impact on outcomes as I have said repeatedly, has to be judged within the context of the Lakers' first option, Shaq being consistently double and triple teamed. Ewing was always the knicks' first option, facing double teams on a regular basis as well.

the problem is, Ewing never had elite efficiency to begin with...outside of 2-4 regular seasons. He never once had elite efficiency in a playoff run. Pick out his best playoff run. Kobe ***** all over it.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:37 PM
All that matters is that there are more Lakers in the Top 10 than any other team :cool:

some did some major damage with other teams as well though. But yes, the greatest NBA franchise in history will obviously have many of the all timers..

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 06:37 PM
Have yall watched Kobe? It seems like none of you guys have seen Kobe play in his prime yrs smh Kobe's success did have alot to do with shaq being doubled team but it still doesnt take away the fact he was the closer for those lakers teams

I watched every WC finals playoffs games and every NBA finals games during Kobe's first 3 titles. I watched most of the WC finals playoffs and every NBA finals games during Kobe's 2nd title run. I watched many but not all of the playoff games for the Lakers in both title runs. Watched a ton of Lakers games throughout his career.

If you have an assertion about how "clutch" Kobe is in the 4th quarter, just back it up with stats. I've already asked twice.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 06:39 PM
Fun fact

The Dream is the only player to ever win a championship without a teammate who produced at least a 18.0 PER and played at least 1500 minutes in a season.

The only example of a player actually winning a championship alone (I cut off the era mark at 1970).

That makes him look pretty special, don't you think?


the problem is, Ewing never had elite efficiency to begin with...outside of 2-4 regular seasons. He never once had elite efficiency in a playoff run. Pick out his best playoff run. Kobe ***** all over it.

We are talking about the 10-12 greatest players of all-time. I shouldn't have to suffer through all this Ewing bashing. So brutal.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 06:40 PM
Except, Lebron has been better than Kobe in the 4th.

More assists, more field goals made, and he took less shots.

He clearly out played Kobe in the 4th. He may have looked scared to you, but he was accomplishing more than Kobe.


The problem with your memory, is that you are isolating the times he actually accomplished this, and ignoring the much larger number of times that he didn't do this (or didn't have to).

While other guys also did it.

Selective memory bias.

The numbers don't back up your argument.


Read this breakdown, let me know if you have any issues with what Abbott is saying


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

OH LAWWD!!! Now I know all that matters to you is stats. Lebron better than Kobe in the 4th? The same Lebron that didn't wanna touch the ball in the 4th back in his first stint with Cleveland? Or the same Lebron that still needed wade to do the closing in his first yr in Miami? Anyone with a basketball sense would tell you Kobe is an elite closer and better than lebron in that department.

FraziersKnicks
03-02-2015, 06:52 PM
OH LAWWD!!! Now I know all that matters to you is stats. Lebron better than Kobe in the 4th? The same Lebron that didn't wanna touch the ball in the 4th back in his first stint with Cleveland? Or the same Lebron that still needed wade to do the closing in his first yr in Miami? Anyone with a basketball sense would tell you Kobe is an elite closer and better than lebron in that department.

Nah

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 06:52 PM
Right because the last 24 seconds of a game is the stand alone undisputable definition of a clutch player.....

Lol if it favored him you would be using it as your be all end all argument for clutch goat status... Let me guess grit and heart next?

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:53 PM
We are talking about the 10-12 greatest players of all-time. I shouldn't have to suffer through all this Ewing bashing. So brutal.

I am done arguing it. It makes no sense to me

and I love Ewing, he came to Trent Tuckers camp 2 years in a row and I played him in a shooting contest when I was in 11th grade haha.

Never seen bigger nostrels on a man..

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:54 PM
OH LAWWD!!! Now I know all that matters to you is stats. Lebron better than Kobe in the 4th? The same Lebron that didn't wanna touch the ball in the 4th back in his first stint with Cleveland? Or the same Lebron that still needed wade to do the closing in his first yr in Miami? Anyone with a basketball sense would tell you Kobe is an elite closer and better than lebron in that department.

Guess you didn't read the link....

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 06:54 PM
OH LAWWD!!! Now I know all that matters to you is stats. Lebron better than Kobe in the 4th? The same Lebron that didn't wanna touch the ball in the 4th back in his first stint with Cleveland? Or the same Lebron that still needed wade to do the closing in his first yr in Miami? Anyone with a basketball sense would tell you Kobe is an elite closer and better than lebron in that department.

Lol no. Just no.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 06:55 PM
OH LAWWD!!! Now I know all that matters to you is stats. Lebron better than Kobe in the 4th? The same Lebron that didn't wanna touch the ball in the 4th back in his first stint with Cleveland? Or the same Lebron that still needed wade to do the closing in his first yr in Miami? Anyone with a basketball sense would tell you Kobe is an elite closer and better than lebron in that department.

cept numbers show the opposite.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 06:57 PM
Fun fact, Kobe has shot worse in the 4th quarter than any other quarter in every year of his career....except for 04-05, he shot worse in the 3rd quarter than the 4th that season and 07-08 he shot worse in the 2nd quarter....in both seasons, his second worst quarter was his 4th quarter.

In only two seasons, has he shot over 42% in the 4th quarter in his career, many seasons he is lower than 40%...this from a guy with a career .451%.

He isn't this elite closer than you are thinking he is.

Do you know this stuff by heart or do you go around googling kobe that often?

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 06:58 PM
Do you know this stuff by heart or do you go around googling kobe that often?

It doesn't take long to look this stuff up.....

Information is power ya know

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 07:02 PM
the problem is, Ewing never had elite efficiency to begin with...outside of 2-4 regular seasons. He never once had elite efficiency in a playoff run. Pick out his best playoff run. Kobe ***** all over it.

John Hollinger came up with an interesting stat. That's it. It rates CP3 as the 6th greatest player of all time, and Al Jefferson as top 50 all time.

And Tyler Zeller has elite PER numbers as well.

Kobe is barely top 20 PER for his career, and may drop out of it altogether if he plays another season or two.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 07:05 PM
Lol no. Just no.

Lebron: timid but highly effective.

Kobe: courageous but less effective.


You can have the greatest mindset in the world, and I'm sure Kobe does, but it only allows him to make 1 of every 4 attempts in the last possession/24 sec. of a game.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 07:06 PM
It doesn't take long to look this stuff up.....

Information is power ya know

Where did you find it, I'd be interested in this kind of info for other players as well

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:06 PM
John Hollinger came up with an interesting stat. That's it. It rates CP3 as the 6th greatest player of all time, and Al Jefferson as top 50 all time.

And Tyler Zeller has elite PER numbers as well.

Kobe is barely top 20 PER for his career, and may drop out of it altogether if he plays another season or two.

This is why the stats guys that people make fun of like jeffy/Hawk don't just use 1 stat as the end all be all but instead use all the information they have and even then are open to ideas that have weight behind them.... The stat guys get made fun of but why is more knowledge a bad thing? Its ludicrous really. Nobody will look at this and say wow Kobe is outside the top 20... Kobe is 8-12 or so when you factor everything together.... He isnt gonna drop because of a few more bad years where the guy is toughing it out to play the game he loves... Whats hilarious is people act like its a crime that we put him 8-12.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Where did you find it, I'd be interested in this kind of info for other players as well

Basketball reference, under each players page, go to shooting log.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 07:07 PM
fair enough, I just look at it differently. You can see I have him 9-11, in no order worth fighting for..

Cool. I think he will likely wind up as consensus just outside of the top 10 when lebron has passed his prime (probably 5 seasons off).

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Lebron: timid but highly effective.

Kobe: courageous but less effective.


You can have the greatest mindset in the world, and I'm sure Kobe does, but it only allows him to make 1 of every 4 attempts in the last possession/24 sec. of a game.

yup and people remember the big makes so if Kobe is forcing 30 game winners and only hitting 6 while James takes 8 and hits 4 people say well kobe has hit more game winners so he is more clutch.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 07:08 PM
Basketball reference, under each players page, go to shooting log.

Thanks

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:09 PM
Y'all know if y'all actually watched the games y'all would know Kobe is a better closer than lebron lol It's just like me saying lebron had a good game 5 in the 2011 NBA finals because he had a triple double but if y'all actually watched the game y'all would know he didnt smh

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:09 PM
And I forgot who wanted stats but they're right here

2002 Finals 4th quarters
Shaq- 29 points, 6/14 FG, 17/29 FT
Kobe- 33 points, 12/19 FG, 6/9 FT

2002 1st round 4th quarters
Shaq- 22 points, 8/15 FG, 6/11 FT
Kobe- 15 points, 5/14 FG, 3/4 FT

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Kings-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs and had just 5 turnovers. Shaq averaged just 5.1 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs and had 8 turnovers.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:10 PM
Y'all know if y'all actually watched the games y'all would know Kobe is a better closer than lebron lol It's just like me saying lebron had a good game 5 in the 2011 NBA finals because he had a triple double but if y'all actually watched the game y'all would know he didnt smh

lol because we don't use bias we don't watch the games

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:11 PM
And y'all gotta take into consideration how many times lebron faltered in the 4th which helps with his fg%

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:11 PM
And I forgot who wanted stats but they're right here

2002 Finals 4th quarters
Shaq- 29 points, 6/14 FG, 17/29 FT
Kobe- 33 points, 12/19 FG, 6/9 FT

2002 1st round 4th quarters
Shaq- 22 points, 8/15 FG, 6/11 FT
Kobe- 15 points, 5/14 FG, 3/4 FT

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Kings-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs and had just 5 turnovers. Shaq averaged just 5.1 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs and had 8 turnovers.

Fun note... How many of those were when Shaq was Double or triple teamed and it left Kobe open all the time?

Teufelshunde4
03-02-2015, 07:15 PM
I don't knwo why Magic would be higher than Kobe in on any list. People discount Kobe's championships with Shaq but Magic played with Kareem all the way.

Kareem was still an above avg player then. But not the dominate force of his younger years. What made Magic great was getting the whole team on same page and leading from the front. Pat Riley was the coach in name. But the real leader of the Showtime Lakers was Magic alone.

Kobe is top 10. Kobe loses spots because he played second banana to Shaq for 3 of his 5 rings.

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 07:15 PM
And I forgot who wanted stats but they're right here

2002 Finals 4th quarters
Shaq- 29 points, 6/14 FG, 17/29 FT
Kobe- 33 points, 12/19 FG, 6/9 FT

2002 1st round 4th quarters
Shaq- 22 points, 8/15 FG, 6/11 FT
Kobe- 15 points, 5/14 FG, 3/4 FT

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Kings-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs and had just 5 turnovers. Shaq averaged just 5.1 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs and had 8 turnovers.

Kobe Bryant's field goal percentage in the NBA finals is 41%.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:17 PM
Fun note... How many of those were when Shaq was Double or triple teamed and it left Kobe open all the time?

Lmao wow the hate for Kobe is real on this site. We know Kobe's success had alot to do with shaq being doubled but we were talking about Kobe being the closer for those laker teams.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:18 PM
Lmao wow the hate for Kobe is real on this site. We know Kobe's success had alot to do with shaq being doubled but we were talking about Kobe being the closer for those laker teams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYQDsZljAOY

Thought this guy was known as the closer?

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Kobe Bryant's field goal percentage in the NBA finals is 41%.

I know but I thought we were just talking about the closing part. Nobody is debating that shaq was the main player for those laker squads but y'all just seem to never wanna give Kobe credit on anything lol

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Kareem was still an above avg player then. But not the dominate force of his younger years. What made Magic great was getting the whole team on same page and leading from the front. Pat Riley was the coach in name. But the real leader of the Showtime Lakers was Magic alone.

Kobe is top 10. Kobe loses spots because he played second banana to Shaq for 3 of his 5 rings.

Magic was simply a unique player in that he could play all 5 positions. It's tough to compare Kobe with Magic in that regard.

Kobe is 85% of what Jordan was, and that's been good enough to rank him among the 10 or 12 GOAT.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Fun note... How many of those were when Shaq was Double or triple teamed and it left Kobe open all the time?

Oh so now you can use context? Any other time you take #s for gospel when it downs kobester

G_S_W
03-02-2015, 07:21 PM
I know but I thought we were just talking about the closing part. Nobody is debating that shaq was the main player for those laker squads but y'all just seem to never wanna give Kobe credit on anything lol

It's already established that Kobe is a 25% shooter in the last possession/24 sec. of a game over the course of his career.

You are cherry picking his best games and quarters selectively.

To make your point more effectively (or at all), you need to cite a stat showing Kobe's career playoff averages in the 4th quarter, not just his best 4th quarters.

With the way you use statistics, you could easily "prove" Shaq is a great free throw shooter by citing a few games where he shot over 80% from the line. But for his career, well....

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:23 PM
Oh so now you can use context? Any other time you take #s for gospel when it downs kobester

I always use context when it comes to how great a players supporting cast was and so on. Kobe had a better weapon than anyone a Lebron or Jordan ever had on their teams. I dont think there is a more dominant player in the history of the sport than a Prime Shaq

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 07:23 PM
And y'all gotta take into consideration how many times lebron faltered in the 4th which helps with his fg%

Maybe read the link I gave ya, it addresses this.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:24 PM
In fact Prime shaq might be the only player I would take over a prime Jordan when starting a team

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:25 PM
I always use context when it comes to how great a players supporting cast was and so on. Kobe had a better weapon than anyone a Lebron or Jordan ever had on their teams. I dont think there is a more dominant player in the history of the sport than a Prime Shaq

What about magic with Kareem, worthy, Scott, cooper, mcadoo and those boys? Or how about bird with mchale, Parrish, and Dennis Johnson?

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:26 PM
What about magic with Kareem, worthy, Scott, cooper, mcadoo and those boys? Or how about bird with mchale, Parrish, and Dennis Johnson?

Read my above post. I would take a prime shaq over anyone

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:27 PM
It's already established that Kobe is a 25% shooter in the last possession/24 sec. of a game over the course of his career.

You are cherry picking his best games and quarters selectively.

To make your point more effectively (or at all), you need to cite a stat showing Kobe's career playoff averages in the 4th quarter, not just his best 4th quarters.

With the way you use statistics, you could easily "prove" Shaq is a great free throw shooter by citing a few games where he shot over 80% from the line. But for his career, well....

Isn't that what you guys are doing with Kobe tho? Cherry picking his bad performances lmao goes both ways.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 07:31 PM
lol because we don't use bias we don't watch the games

Naw because I don't need numbers to tell me who was the better closer. Lebron for so long relied on lesser talent to bail him out and in his first year it was clear that wade was the closer for that team.

Legend_23
03-02-2015, 07:34 PM
I won't apologise for not condoning rape.

And yes, I do see it as a coincidence, most of the people with Kobe sitting between 9th and 12th are the people who are unbiased. It's the people who have him in the top 5 all time that are obviously biased, clearly homers.

Again, I don't dislike him let alone hate him. I don't condone the rape stuff but that's one (big) mistake that has nothing to do with basketball, therefore shouldn't effect his ranking and doesn't even come into it when I rank him.

Condoning rape is what your issue is with Kobe? You think, a millionaire, handsome, young, succesfull, famous basketball player has to rape in order to have sex with some white girl working behind a desk? What world do you live in? That girl didn't get raped, she got what she wanted, sex + a paycheck.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 07:37 PM
Isn't that what you guys are doing with Kobe tho? Cherry picking his bad performances lmao goes both ways.

Do you know what cherry picking means?

Posting his percentages in the time frames that you established isn't cherry picking.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 07:39 PM
Naw because I don't need numbers to tell me

Then you will lead a life of being wrong often.

Because this sentence is synamous with ignorance.

More-Than-Most
03-02-2015, 07:39 PM
Naw because I don't need numbers to tell me who was the better closer. Lebron for so long relied on lesser talent to bail him out and in his first year it was clear that wade was the closer for that team.

you mean making the smart basketball play that gives the team the higher chance of winning instead of just throwing the ball up 20 feet from the rim with 2 guys on him? That makes someone the better closer? Being a more selfish player and costing your team more games in those situations then actually helping the team? If you actually watched the games and understood the sport you would understand this.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 07:42 PM
OH LAWWD!!! Now I know all that matters to you is stats. Lebron better than Kobe in the 4th? The same Lebron that didn't wanna touch the ball in the 4th back in his first stint with Cleveland? Or the same Lebron that still needed wade to do the closing in his first yr in Miami? Anyone with a basketball sense would tell you Kobe is an elite closer and better than lebron in that department.

stop while you're behind

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 07:44 PM
And y'all gotta take into consideration how many times lebron faltered in the 4th which helps with his fg%

wait, so passing on a highly contested 22 footer with 2 guys draped on you, instead passing to a wide open shooter, is a bad thing? hahahhaa

that is hero ball, the question Tony was asking. Saying, "I don't give a **** if we win or not, I am deciding it, and my teammates get to live with the outcome".

There is your definition Tony

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 07:48 PM
And I forgot who wanted stats but they're right here

2002 Finals 4th quarters
Shaq- 29 points, 6/14 FG, 17/29 FT
Kobe- 33 points, 12/19 FG, 6/9 FT

2002 1st round 4th quarters
Shaq- 22 points, 8/15 FG, 6/11 FT
Kobe- 15 points, 5/14 FG, 3/4 FT

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

2002 Kings-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs and had just 5 turnovers. Shaq averaged just 5.1 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs and had 8 turnovers.

Fun note... How many of those were when Shaq was Double or triple teamed and it left Kobe open all the time?


If you think Kobe was left open during that era you are showing how little you actually watched. Fish, Fox, Horry, Shaw, got left wide open. Kobe? Never.

That's what made them the most dominant tandem ever, if you tried to just load up on Shaq then Kobe would go crazy and vice versa. You had to respect them both and hope the shooters weren't hitting...

Jamiecballer
03-02-2015, 07:49 PM
wait, so passing on a highly contested 22 footer with 2 guys draped on you, instead passing to a wide open shooter, is a bad thing? hahahhaa

that is hero ball, the question Tony was asking. Saying, "I don't give a **** if we win or not, I am deciding it, and my teammates get to live with the outcome".

There is your definition Tony

he's not going to answer. he only asks hypotheticals. :P

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 07:51 PM
And y'all gotta take into consideration how many times lebron faltered in the 4th which helps with his fg%

wait, so passing on a highly contested 22 footer with 2 guys draped on you, instead passing to a wide open shooter, is a bad thing? hahahhaa

that is hero ball, the question Tony was asking. Saying, "I don't give a **** if we win or not, I am deciding it, and my teammates get to live with the outcome".

There is your definition Tony

Duly noted. If the alternative is passing to the Smush Parkers or Jeremy Lins of the world for the open shot then I am 100% down with hero ball. It should be noted that when he had D Fish's,Artest, and Arizas of the world he made the pass tho.....

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 07:53 PM
he's not going to answer. he only asks hypotheticals. :P

whats funny is, I just came to the realization of exactly what "hero" ball is. That is exactly it. It's being so self centered and ego-centric, that you are willing to let an entire team down, just so you can sleep at night knowing the win was on your shot attempt or not, no matter the degree of difficulty it came with. Jordan was like that early. When he entered his championship years, he knew better.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 07:54 PM
Duly noted. If the alternative is passing to the Smush Parkers or Jeremy Lins of the world for the open shot then I am 100% down with hero ball. It should be noted that when he had D Fish's,Artest, and Arizas of the world he made the pass tho.....

we aren't talking about the 20 win Lakers. We are talking about the 58 win Lakers. Same **** happened.

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 07:57 PM
we aren't talking about the 20 win Lakers. We are talking about the 58 win Lakers. Same **** happened.

Dang they shoulda been 68-75 win lakers in that case if kobe woulda ever passed.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 08:01 PM
Dang they shoulda been 68-75 win lakers in that case if kobe woulda ever passed.

considering during Kobe's post Shaq tenure, the Lakers offense dropped from 107 points per 100 possessions, to around 86 points per 100 possessions, with under 24 seconds to go in a game within a basket, you might not be so far fetched.....

Honestly, Phil should have ran a set play instead, its not all on Kobe. And I will also add, hero ball brings in rabid fans, because they love warriors who go down swinging, no matter the odds. Problem is, warriors with no conscious end up dead most the time...

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 08:02 PM
Duly noted. If the alternative is passing to the Smush Parkers or Jeremy Lins of the world for the open shot then I am 100% down with hero ball. It should be noted that when he had D Fish's,Artest, and Arizas of the world he made the pass tho.....

Except those guys are more likely to make an open shot, than kobe (even in his prime) is likely to make a contested shot.

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 08:04 PM
Duly noted. If the alternative is passing to the Smush Parkers or Jeremy Lins of the world for the open shot then I am 100% down with hero ball. It should be noted that when he had D Fish's,Artest, and Arizas of the world he made the pass tho.....

we aren't talking about the 20 win Lakers. We are talking about the 58 win Lakers. Same **** happened.

Kobe has racked up a bunch of wins with 50+ Lakers so what's the point? If there's someone reliable to pass to he does, if not its going up. Doing it his way has gotten him 5 for 7 chips. How many chips should he have had he not played hero ball? 8? 9? 11 like Bill Russell?

jerellh528
03-02-2015, 08:07 PM
considering during Kobe's post Shaq tenure, the Lakers offense dropped from 107 points per 100 possessions, to around 86 points per 100 possessions, with under 24 seconds to go in a game within a basket, you might not be so far fetched.....

Honestly, Phil should have ran a set play instead, its not all on Kobe. And I will also add, hero ball brings in rabid fans, because they love warriors who go down swinging, no matter the odds. Problem is, warriors with no conscious end up dead most the time...

yeah you're probabaly right. Do you think the coach (Phil, or whoever else) drew up a play and kobe said "eff this im shooting" or do you think most of the time the coach wanted kobe to take the last shot and drew up plays for him? Kobe being kobe, I could see him welcoming either option.

Jeffy25
03-02-2015, 08:10 PM
yeah you're probabaly right. Do you think the coach (Phil, or whoever else) drew up a play and kobe said "eff this im shooting" or do you think most of the time the coach wanted kobe to take the last shot and drew up plays for him? Kobe being kobe, I could see him welcoming either option.

I imagine they came out of the set with two options.

Kobe gets the ball, and he either decides he can make the shot, or if some other option looks, better he can decide to defer.

I think kobe was given the game time decision, from watching any way, that's what I figured.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 08:13 PM
yeah you're probabaly right. Do you think the coach (Phil, or whoever else) drew up a play and kobe said "eff this im shooting" or do you think most of the time the coach wanted kobe to take the last shot and drew up plays for him? Kobe being kobe, I could see him welcoming either option.

honestly, I think Phil saw him as his "Jordan". Which is unfortunate, because as amazing as Kobe was, he just wasn't Jordan.

I think it's a mix. Phil relied on the system, and the individuals he lucked out getting, to win. No doubt.

I think Kobe was more willing as a passer/playmaker his first 4-5 seasons. When he was in his prime, and he had to do literally everything, I believe it changed him into the gunslinger he became. He was so programmed that he was the only chance, it never changed.

Look, I am a Wolves fan. I pray I am having to deal with defending a 5 time champion from my team at some point haha. Though, I would need to be ****ing Marty McFly, cause that will be in 2098

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 08:16 PM
Phil got spoiled having Michael, he never really learned how to close game out with set plays without MJ there.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 08:20 PM
Shawn Marion is more clutch than Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan and is the 3rd most clutch player in the league the last 15 yrs!!! LOLZ

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 08:26 PM
Shawn Marion is more clutch than Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan and is the 3rd most clutch player in the league the last 15 yrs!!! LOLZ

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=truehoop&id=24200&src=desktop

clutch meaning what?

Chrisclover
03-02-2015, 08:26 PM
I'm having a discussion with one of my cousins about this and he's saying kobe should be ranked #2 possibly even #1 all time. Me personally I have him in my top 10 but I think #1 or 2 is a little crazy and just plain stupid
You are right. He is far far far away from the best or the second best.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 08:29 PM
clutch meaning what?

Trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97, with a minimum of 30 shots.

Marion>Ray Allen 😂😂😂

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 08:33 PM
Trailing by one or two points, or tied, in the final 24 seconds of regular-season and playoff games since 1996-97, with a minimum of 30 shots.

Marion>Ray Allen 😂😂😂

oh....well yeah, I would literally expect role players to top those lists. They get the wide open looks, not all the defensive pressure.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 08:45 PM
oh....well yeah, I would literally expect role players to top those lists. They get the wide open looks, not all the defensive pressure.

It's all about numbers tho right? 😂

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 08:45 PM
I know one thing when another superstar comes along and grabs 5 rings, while pulling off some of the most insane scoring excursions known to man, and is a elite two way player to boot he will go in my top 10 as well....

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 08:54 PM
Guess Shawn Marion has been the 3rd most clutch player in the last 15 yrs according to alot of people on here's standards 😂

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 09:04 PM
It's already established that Kobe is a 25% shooter in the last possession/24 sec. of a game over the course of his career.

You are cherry picking his best games and quarters selectively.

To make your point more effectively (or at all), you need to cite a stat showing Kobe's career playoff averages in the 4th quarter, not just his best 4th quarters.

With the way you use statistics, you could easily "prove" Shaq is a great free throw shooter by citing a few games where he shot over 80% from the line. But for his career, well....

according to you since stats mean everything. Shawn Marion is more clutch than guys like Ray Allen, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron etc LMAO

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Greedy22
03-02-2015, 09:10 PM
I'd put him in the 6-9 area with Shaq, Bird and Duncan.

SteveNash
03-02-2015, 09:11 PM
Top 3, Top 5 somewhere in that area.

jayjay33
03-02-2015, 09:14 PM
Top 3, Top 5 somewhere in that area.


This......

Logic Man
03-02-2015, 09:15 PM
Top 10 player. Not in top 5

Bostonjorge
03-02-2015, 09:15 PM
I truly only have jordan and chambalin over kobe. Chambalin because of his outrages averages. After that Kobe has a case over everyone else. Next 2 in line would be magic and KAJ. A case can be made for the #3 spot but Kobe will have it locked up soon.

Tony_Starks
03-02-2015, 09:20 PM
I truly only have jordan and chambalin over kobe. Chambalin because of his outrages averages. After that Kobe has a case over everyone else. Next 2 in line would be magic and KAJ. A case can be made for the #3 spot but Kobe will have it locked up soon.

What team are you a fan of sir?

mngopher35
03-02-2015, 09:20 PM
Guess Shawn Marion has been the 3rd most clutch player in the last 15 yrs according to alot of people on here's standards 😂


according to you since stats mean everything. Shawn Marion is more clutch than guys like Ray Allen, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron etc LMAO

Come on now, I haven't seen anyone making this claim. Marion is more of a role player late who has played with some great distributors over time. Not having the focus of the defense and getting more choice opportunities from good passers or because he was wide open likely contributed to this.

Look at how Kobe performs in the final 5 minutes of close games (under 40% shooting in playoffs within 5pts) or his elimination games in the playoffs as well. Kobe is a great player but there are definitely things to point to if you want to make a "clutch" argument against him. The definition of clutch is different for everyone which makes it hard to judge overall anyways.

Personally I would want him to take the final shot with a few seconds, he is great at makin tough shots. Outside of that there are probably better options for "clutch" situations.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 10:07 PM
Come on now, I haven't seen anyone making this claim. Marion is more of a role player late who has played with some great distributors over time. Not having the focus of the defense and getting more choice opportunities from good passers or because he was wide open likely contributed to this.

Look at how Kobe performs in the final 5 minutes of close games (under 40% shooting in playoffs within 5pts) or his elimination games in the playoffs as well. Kobe is a great player but there are definitely things to point to if you want to make a "clutch" argument against him. The definition of clutch is different for everyone which makes it hard to judge overall anyways.

Personally I would want him to take the final shot with a few seconds, he is great at makin tough shots. Outside of that there are probably better options for "clutch" situations.

I know Marion isn't more clutch. It was a joke but numbers are everything to some posters here so if we're going by numbers, Marion is more clutch than Kobe as well as lebron 😂

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2015, 10:14 PM
Lets look at superstars then. Karl Malone 11/31 35.5%
Kobe 36/115 31.3% so Malone is more clutch than Kobe as well LOL

mngopher35
03-02-2015, 10:25 PM
I know Marion isn't more clutch. It was a joke but numbers are everything to some posters here so if we're going by numbers, Marion is more clutch than Kobe as well as lebron 😂

Actually people probably post numbers and generally hope it will help their point and can then be debated from there. Some who disagree may question the context or point out other factors etc.

I haven't seen a single person make the claim that you continue to post...