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nastynice
03-01-2015, 08:40 PM
I wanna talk some basketball, I know this is gonna turn into a troll fest sooner or later, but let's see how long it can last, maybe we can get some good posts in.

Of all the aspects of lebron's game I love, there is one thing that really bothers me, and that is how he uses his off hand to push off when driving. He's always done that, I remember him doing that in Miami, but I don't know, I feel like lately its been just getting worse. I've seen him completely straightening his arm out even, never gets called on it. I know he takes a lot of contact when driving, and his freak of nature strength makes it hard to appreciate just how many hits he takes when driving, but at the same time I don't that see as any kind of justification for allowing him to blatantly shove defenders.

Today was just too bad, I had to start a thread. Its one thing to have a few of them throughout the game, but today vs the rockets, 3 times in the last 2 minutes he had fairly clear push offs either trying to create space or just move defenders around so they can't contest his drives. Allowing players to get away with blatant fouls in crunch time, I'm not so sure how I feel about that, I don't think its right.

I can't even be mad at lebron about it, cuz its the refs job to make these calls, not lebrons. What do you guys think of this whole situation? Why has it gotten so bad, and why are the refs not making the calls? Are they really just not seeing it?

ThuglifeJ
03-01-2015, 08:40 PM
He's always done that push off.

Why's this a thread and big deal now? Literally, always, done that.

goingfor28
03-01-2015, 08:43 PM
My favorite was last year vs the Bobcats in the playoffs. LeBron blatantly shoved MKG to the ground and MKG got called for a foul lol

hugepatsfan
03-01-2015, 08:48 PM
He's the biggest star in the NBA so he gets the most star calls. Duh.

tdg823
03-01-2015, 09:00 PM
He was worse about it when he was in Cleveland. I've been screaming this for so long I got tired of it People just act oblivious to it, like it's not a huge factor in his stats (which no analytics ever account for) and his game. It's his go to move in the clutch and his crutch. Take that away and he is exposed as a limited offensive player in a freak athlete's body.

BKdoubleStacker
03-01-2015, 09:02 PM
Don't hate the player hate the refs

I would like some sort of system implemented where refs are graded and punished. There's always going to be bad calls but some refs are just terrible

Jeffy25
03-01-2015, 09:04 PM
Jordan did it big time too. He would use his non-dribble hand to move defenders all of the time.

Jeffy25
03-01-2015, 09:05 PM
Not saying it's okay by the way. But if refs let you get away with it. Then you might as well do it.

Tony_Starks
03-01-2015, 09:16 PM
Welcome to the superstar treatment. Its almost funny watching Lebron push off on one end then see Harden flop on the other.... Anthony Mason rollin over in his grave! ( rip)

tdg823
03-01-2015, 09:20 PM
It's allowed too consistently to be a problem associated with certain refs. It's like official league policy. He doesn't extend that arm as frequently and blatantly anymore though, he's developed a more subtle game of illegal hooks and shoulders. He even had this cool subtle forearm shiver thing he started using to clear space in the playoffs the last year or two. Not quite as obvious, but equally effective.

nastynice
03-01-2015, 09:23 PM
He's always done that push off.

Why's this a thread and big deal now? Literally, always, done that.

Just cuz today was too much man, 3 times in the last minute and a half or whatever, its TOO crazy now. This was a pretty big game, playoff atmosphere, you can't let people get away with stuff like that in such clutch moments, imo. I always been of the opinion that a badly reffed game can be made up for by a good reffed 4th quarter, because its always the end that counts. But to allow this in the last couple minutes, REPETITIVELY, just feels too overboard.

I would hate for playoff games to have outcomes decided by something like this.

IDunknown
03-01-2015, 09:24 PM
He was worse about it when he was in Cleveland. I've been screaming this for so long I got tired of it People just act oblivious to it, like it's not a huge factor in his stats (which no analytics ever account for) and his game. It's his go to move in the clutch and his crutch. Take that away and he is exposed as a limited offensive player in a freak athlete's body.

You didn't hear the news?

nastynice
03-01-2015, 09:25 PM
Don't hate the player hate the refs

I would like some sort of system implemented where refs are graded and punished. There's always going to be bad calls but some refs are just terrible

100% agree. I even pointed that out in my op, you can't blame the player, if refs are gonna let him do it, he'd be stupid not to use it to his advantage.

I really like lebron anyway, its great seeing him back to form, absolute sav fun to watch. But this is just one thing that seems to be getting worse and worse, and I'm just wondering how the refs haven't addressed it yet, and let it get this bad.

nastynice
03-01-2015, 09:27 PM
It's allowed too consistently to be a problem associated with certain refs. It's like official league policy. He doesn't extend that arm as frequently and blatantly anymore though, he's developed a more subtle game of illegal hooks and shoulders. He even had this cool subtle forearm shiver thing he started using to clear space in the playoffs the last year or two. Not quite as obvious, but equally effective.

wow, really? Maybe I never paid attention earlier in his career, but to me it seemed to be getting worse cuz I've been seeing alot lately, very blatant. I've seen him literally completely extend his arm out on the perimeter one on one to get by a guy, yet somehow it doesn't get called.

Ty Fast
03-01-2015, 09:27 PM
All superstar get special treatment

nastynice
03-01-2015, 09:32 PM
Jordan did it big time too. He would use his non-dribble hand to move defenders all of the time.

very different era. Defenders were allowed to get physical with ball handlers, and so ball handlers returned the favor. Not trying to dismiss your point entirely, but I don't think its fair to compare them straight up like that, the physicality was a given at that time.

goingfor28
03-01-2015, 10:01 PM
You didn't hear the news?
Lol

ThuglifeJ
03-01-2015, 10:45 PM
wow, really? Maybe I never paid attention earlier in his career, but to me it seemed to be getting worse cuz I've been seeing alot lately, very blatant. I've seen him literally completely extend his arm out on the perimeter one on one to get by a guy, yet somehow it doesn't get called.

Being completely honest, I don't think you payed attention to it as much early on in his career. Back in his og Cavs days, he used to literally do nothing but that at times. If he wasn't bowling down the lane like a full back he was almost always extending his arm like he did tonight.

It's just instinctive of him I believe, he does it very frequently. But yes, it should be called more.

Dade County
03-02-2015, 01:33 AM
The 1st time this really got my attention is when Le-Con played for the Cav's the 1st time around, and it was Cav's vs Pistons (can't remember if it was a playoof game); but he pushed the **** out of Richard Hamilton as he was driving to the basket.

But whatever it's NBA basketball.

nastynice
03-02-2015, 01:59 AM
Being completely honest, I don't think you payed attention to it as much early on in his career. Back in his og Cavs days, he used to literally do nothing but that at times. If he wasn't bowling down the lane like a full back he was almost always extending his arm like he did tonight.

It's just instinctive of him I believe, he does it very frequently. But yes, it should be called more.

yea, very possible, I meant that when I said it in my earlier post. I watched bball, but didn't really notice things the way I notice things now, cuz I understand the game much better from a technical standpoint now.

ottograham14
03-02-2015, 12:29 PM
very different era. Defenders were allowed to get physical with ball handlers, and so ball handlers returned the favor. Not trying to dismiss your point entirely, but I don't think its fair to compare them straight up like that, the physicality was a given at that time.

Different era but the reason it was so blatant yesterday was because the refs were also allowing Ariza to get into Lebron's body constantly. I am a Cavs fan and I actually appreciated Ariza's defense yesterday but that is also why it was so obvious where defenders use to do this all the time and what made Jordan's obvious as well. One of the most remembered shots in history is off of a blatant push off (Jordan vs Byron Russell).

Yes Lebron uses his off hand a lot to create space but this looks worse sometimes than it is by Lebron being the more physical player and stronger player by getting defenders off of him. It has always been a part of his game and a lot to do with who he is as a player. I can say that a lot of times he gets bumped or fouled in the lane thats not called since he is the more physical player and takes contact more easily than others.

Either way, the refs in the NBA are awful in whole. Yesterdays game was awful for them on both ends but at the end of the day Lebron needs to finish around the rim and also needs to make an F'ing FT. Wish both teams were healthy for this game as if KI and Howard were playing it could have been epic. I would not be upset to see this two teams in a 7 Game Finals series at full strength.

nastynice
03-02-2015, 01:11 PM
Different era but the reason it was so blatant yesterday was because the refs were also allowing Ariza to get into Lebron's body constantly. I am a Cavs fan and I actually appreciated Ariza's defense yesterday but that is also why it was so obvious where defenders use to do this all the time and what made Jordan's obvious as well. One of the most remembered shots in history is off of a blatant push off (Jordan vs Byron Russell).

I don't get what ur saying. Ariza was getting into lebron's body, I see nothing wrong with that. If a defender can establish his position and get up in a players body, that's great defense to me. There's nothing wrong or illegal with that, that's how traps work all the time. Its exactly what the Cavs did to Harden on that nut kick play, the first guy got all up in his body, and the lebron did the same from the other side, I see nothing wrong with that, its just good defense to me. Ur saying if someone is playing good defense against lebron, it should allow him to start pushing off? And if they're playing crappy d, then he shouldn't be allowed to push off?

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 01:26 PM
go look at MJ highlights. He literally karate chopped defenders arms away when finishing at the rim, and they were called for the foul.

Superstars get all the calls. Always have, always will.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 01:29 PM
very different era. Defenders were allowed to get physical with ball handlers, and so ball handlers returned the favor. Not trying to dismiss your point entirely, but I don't think its fair to compare them straight up like that, the physicality was a given at that time.

which era? Jordan's first 5 years in the league were wide open, wings didn't play much defense. The Bad Boys and Heat teams just fouled you, they still made a lot of calls. The rule changes were made for a reason, as they always have been. People act like the old days was a boxing match. There were some hard hits, a few defenders allowed to grab on defense, but as a whole, the defense wasn't any better than today. Might even be worse back then, cause now there is no hand checking at all...

long story short is, no matter the era, superstars have gotten away with what the majority is not allowed to.

NJrockPD
03-02-2015, 01:34 PM
Lebron can do no wrong.

nastynice
03-02-2015, 01:50 PM
which era? Jordan's first 5 years in the league were wide open, wings didn't play much defense. The Bad Boys and Heat teams just fouled you, they still made a lot of calls. The rule changes were made for a reason, as they always have been. People act like the old days was a boxing match. There were some hard hits, a few defenders allowed to grab on defense, but as a whole, the defense wasn't any better than today. Might even be worse back then, cause now there is no hand checking at all...

long story short is, no matter the era, superstars have gotten away with what the majority is not allowed to.

oh, I don't mean to deny "superstar treatment". I def agree with that. But someone comparing how jordan would play physically to how lebron plays physically, seems an absurd comparison, two different eras.

beasted86
03-02-2015, 02:01 PM
LeBron rarely pushes off like the title says. It's more of a stiff arm ward off to keep his defender at a distance so they can't reach in and knock the ball away. It's legal and a skill at maintaining the wanted effect without it being a blatant push off offensive foul.

So many players in the league and even playgrounds do this. It's a non issue to me.

A push off is Jordan, Game 6 of the '98 Finals against Byron Russell. LeBron and many other players get away with this also regularly, more so when in the air attempting a layup or flip shot than driving to the basket and it's not called.

beasted86
03-02-2015, 02:20 PM
go look at MJ highlights. He literally karate chopped defenders arms away when finishing at the rim, and they were called for the foul.

Superstars get all the calls. Always have, always will.
Exactly. The in air push off is a much bigger and longer standing problem than creating space with a ward off arm driving to the rim.

The last thing I want is a bunch of ticky tack reach in or offensive fouls being called every time someone drives.

But the rule change maybe 5 years ago was meant to try and help this out, but it's just not getting called enough.

nastynice
03-02-2015, 02:32 PM
LeBron rarely pushes off like the title says. It's more of a stiff arm ward off to keep his defender at a distance so they can't reach in and knock the ball away. It's legal and a skill at maintaining the wanted effect without it being a blatant push off offensive foul.

So many players in the league and even playgrounds do this. It's a non issue to me.

A push off is Jordan, Game 6 of the '98 Finals against Byron Russell. LeBron and many other players get away with this also regularly, more so when in the air attempting a layup or flip shot than driving to the basket and it's not called.

Ur sure that the pushoffs are legal? I wonder why other players don't use it as often then, if it IS legal. The heisman highlight, lol

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 02:39 PM
oh, I don't mean to deny "superstar treatment". I def agree with that. But someone comparing how jordan would play physically to how lebron plays physically, seems an absurd comparison, two different eras.

players adjust the the era though, so it is easy to compare, unless you are trying to stylistically compare. In fact, I think an argument could be made LeBron dominates even more than he has in the years Jordan played. You weren't called for charges that much than. He would have just bulldozed players.

Point is, stars have been taking advantage of the rules for eternity.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 02:40 PM
LeBron rarely pushes off like the title says. It's more of a stiff arm ward off to keep his defender at a distance so they can't reach in and knock the ball away. It's legal and a skill at maintaining the wanted effect without it being a blatant push off offensive foul.

So many players in the league and even playgrounds do this. It's a non issue to me.

A push off is Jordan, Game 6 of the '98 Finals against Byron Russell. LeBron and many other players get away with this also regularly, more so when in the air attempting a layup or flip shot than driving to the basket and it's not called.

fitting that Mason just passed, he was the king of this while dribbling the ball up on a break. He would grab a rebound, than stiff arm his way up the floor

tdg823
03-02-2015, 04:14 PM
The only thing in recent memory that compares to his stiff arm in terms of frequency, obviousness and impact on games would be Shaq and the way he cleared people out with his head and shoulders. I better case could be made for the intent and legality of Shaq's move though if you were so inclined. And Lebron has that mid air slap away and/or elbow down pat now better than Jordan ever did.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 04:16 PM
The only thing in recent memory that compares to his stiff arm in terms of frequency, obviousness and impact on games would be Shaq and the way he cleared people out with his head and shoulders. I better case could be made for the intent and legality of Shaq's move though if you were so inclined. And Lebron has that mid air slap away and/or elbow down pat now better than Jordan ever did.

you need to go to youtube and type in Michael Jordan highlights haha. He literally, and I mean literally, karate chopped his defenders arm out of the way when he finished many times. It would absolutely be called an offensive foul today.

jmartin80
03-02-2015, 06:07 PM
you need to go to youtube and type in Michael Jordan highlights haha. He literally, and I mean literally, karate chopped his defenders arm out of the way when he finished many times. It would absolutely be called an offensive foul today.

I don't think the argument has anything to do with Jordan doing it and Lebron doing it. If Lebron did it in the 90's, there wouldn't even be a thread about it.

The complaint is that in todays game, very few if any could get away with the continuous fouls that Lebron commits every game that gives him an advantage. I don't blame him because he gets away with it so often, but a large majority of them should be called fouls by todays standards that apply to a majority of the league, just not him.

nastynice
03-02-2015, 07:42 PM
I don't think the argument has anything to do with Jordan doing it and Lebron doing it. If Lebron did it in the 90's, there wouldn't even be a thread about it.



thanks, this is kinda what I was trying to say.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2015, 07:47 PM
I don't think the argument has anything to do with Jordan doing it and Lebron doing it. If Lebron did it in the 90's, there wouldn't even be a thread about it.

The complaint is that in todays game, very few if any could get away with the continuous fouls that Lebron commits every game that gives him an advantage. I don't blame him because he gets away with it so often, but a large majority of them should be called fouls by todays standards that apply to a majority of the league, just not him.

the problem is, (Shaq went through the same thing), a slight forearm from LeBron is devastating to a wing defender. Not his problem he is stronger. Its a natural reaction to protect by getting that arm up and finding body. Should he be penalized he just happens to be stronger than anyone that guards him?

This is why superstars are superstars, they are matchup nightmares. Wanna put someone on him that has his strength? Cool, he will beat them with 1 dribble and blow by. Want to put someone on him with the same foot speed? Cool, he will find their body and they are gone.

Not like any of this is new guys.

tdg823
03-02-2015, 08:39 PM
Size and strength is irrelevant to how far you extend your arm or (less noticeably so) use your shoulder to clear space. Two completely separate things. Whether he's a Durant or a Sabonis, you can only use that arm so much.

Master Mind
03-03-2015, 03:47 AM
It was pretty laughable when he hadouken Harrison Barnes and seeing Barnes wobble around like a new born deer. It doesn't get more blatant than that. People will always attribute it to his size and power but he's given an unfair advantage by being allowed to abusively ward off defenders. While MJ's iconic push on Byron Russell is celebrated, I've never seen him bench press defenders like this.

Master Mind
03-03-2015, 03:56 AM
With that being said, he's still the best player in the league. Just wish he'd stop doing that.

basch152
03-03-2015, 06:29 AM
You can only take LeBrons 5 step travel no calls, blatant offensive fouls, and minimal contact required to get a foul before you get tired of it all.

I can barely stand to watch the nba anymore, it's a complete joke.

Hawkeye15
03-03-2015, 10:21 AM
Size and strength is irrelevant to how far you extend your arm or (less noticeably so) use your shoulder to clear space. Two completely separate things. Whether he's a Durant or a Sabonis, you can only use that arm so much.

but size and strength do matter. A nudge from LeBron is the same as Andrew Wiggins throwing his entire body into it.

Hawkeye15
03-03-2015, 10:22 AM
With that being said, he's still the best player in the league. Just wish he'd stop doing that.

like I have said about every star in history that gets away with things, and all the floppers, until they start calling it, why on earth should he stop doing it?

tdg823
03-04-2015, 03:43 AM
Ok, cool, I'll clarify that a bit more... the issue is extension/arm angle, in which case size/strength is irrelevant to the discussion.

FlashBolt
03-04-2015, 03:46 AM
People forget Shaq did the same exact thing... It's just that he's so strong that it makes it look worse than it really is. Stop hating. It's why he's unstoppable. We all know James plays off his superior physique but that's what makes him special. Name one player who can do what James does at such a height, speed, and power..

Hawkeye15
03-04-2015, 11:18 AM
Ok, cool, I'll clarify that a bit more... the issue is extension/arm angle, in which case size/strength is irrelevant to the discussion.

agree on that.

None the less, the strength difference does play into it. If LeBron straight up used an entire extension, the dude would be on the ground

Hawkeye15
03-04-2015, 11:18 AM
People forget Shaq did the same exact thing... It's just that he's so strong that it makes it look worse than it really is. Stop hating. It's why he's unstoppable. We all know James plays off his superior physique but that's what makes him special. Name one player who can do what James does at such a height, speed, and power..

none. There has never been a combination of that size, strength, and speed at that skill level on the perimeter.

Wilt is the only other guy I can think of, that could probably do everything as well outside dribble/pass (due to being a lot taller).

nastynice
03-04-2015, 01:13 PM
agree on that.

None the less, the strength difference does play into it. If LeBron straight up used an entire extension, the dude would be on the ground

I def seen him use entire extensions numerous times.

honestly I dont get what his size and strength have to do with it. Just because he's bigger and stronger than other players doesn't mean he's allowed to travel, right? Same thing, if he uses his size and strength to use his body and put himself in position or something like that then its fine, but shoving defenders out of the way with your off hand just isn't allowed regardless of how big or small you are.

Or are you saying everybody does it, but we only notice when lebron does because his looks worse because of his size?

Hawkeye15
03-04-2015, 01:15 PM
I def seen him use entire extensions numerous times.

honestly I dont get what his size and strength have to do with it. Just because he's bigger and stronger than other players doesn't mean he's allowed to travel, right? Same thing, if he uses his size and strength to use his body and put himself in position or something like that then its fine, but shoving defenders out of the way with your off hand just isn't allowed regardless of how big or small you are.

Or are you saying everybody does it, but we only notice when lebron does because his looks worse because of his size?

why was Nique, Magic, Kareem, Dream, Jordan, or countless others allowed to travel?

You don't think defenders get pushed off by everyone?

You are pointing out that LeBron does something that has been done since the inception of basketball. Refs sometimes call it, sometimes they don't. If it's the level of consistency depending on the status of the player that bothers you, maybe NBA basketball isn't for you. Not sure what else to tell you.

kobe4thewinbang
03-04-2015, 04:31 PM
I thought you were allowed to push off now? Like when Chris Paul pushed off on Conley (I think?) and made that layup at the buzzer two playoffs (?) ago?

t_money25
03-04-2015, 05:11 PM
This happens all the time. Just about every player with effective dribble drive moves do it. It's almost second nature to most. Melo seems to do that more often than others IMO.

I've played rec ball with a few guys that have played overseas and even those guys do it. I guess it's part of the game as long as you don't throw a guy to the ground.