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bucketss
02-27-2015, 05:40 PM
The mvp race is getting heated this year, we can use this thread to discuss.

InRoseWeTrust
02-27-2015, 05:46 PM
Should be: LeBron

Will be: Harden

tredigs
02-27-2015, 06:17 PM
Should be: LeBron

Will be: Harden

Why should it be the most statistically inferior of all the top candidates?

jerellh528
02-27-2015, 06:22 PM
Not to mention the guy in the worst confrence and has the most help.

bluefire7002
02-27-2015, 06:49 PM
Not to mention the guy in the worst confrence and has the most help.

Should be Curry... The guy has been a beast all year.

But if the Cavs keep winning at this rate, I could see them giving it to Lebron for him "single handedly" getting them all the way up to the #2 seed you know :rolleyes:

rhino17
02-27-2015, 06:50 PM
Should be: LeBron

Will be: Harden

WRONG

Lebron has turned it on as of late, but Hardan and Curry have been dominating from day 1. Lebron got his act together too late to be in the same league as the other 2

FraziersKnicks
02-27-2015, 06:52 PM
Not to mention the guy in the worst confrence and has the most help.

Warriors without Curry > Cavs without LeBron

The Warriors have the much more loaded team, but with that being said Curry still deserves the MVP the most.

1. Curry
2. Harden
3. LeBron
4. Gasol
5. Westbrook

bluefire7002
02-27-2015, 06:55 PM
Warriors without Curry > Cavs without LeBron

The Warriors have the much more loaded team, but with that being said Curry still deserves the MVP the most.

1. Curry
2. Harden
3. LeBron
4. Gasol
5. Westbrook

They Also have the better record.

5ass
02-27-2015, 07:06 PM
WRONG

Lebron has turned it on as of late, but Hardan and Curry have been dominating from day 1. Lebron got his act together too late to be in the same league as the other 2

I'd argue ur performance in the second half of the season has much impact on the votes than the first half.

Chronz
02-27-2015, 07:07 PM
Didn't think we were going to have one of these but its definitely Curry. Its so predictable right now that it would take a massive collapse for him to lose it. The only way it becomes a debate will be a result of recency bias.

Hawkize31
02-27-2015, 07:19 PM
Why should it be the most statistically inferior of all the top candidates?

This is a fun argument for Lebron fans to counter this year, because Lebron had the best stats in the league for about 6 years straight prior to last year, yet Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose both somehow won MVPs over Lebron despite being "statistically inferior", as you put it. So to answer your question - its clearly been established that having the best stats is not the criteria for winning the MVP award.

Reasons why he SHOULD win the award - hes the best player in the world, he can do more things well than any other player in the league, his team is 1-7 without him and 36-15 with him, he's led them to wins in 18 of their last 20, and hes got the Cavs knocking on the door of being the 2 seed in the East. And hes done all this with a 1st year NBA coach and a roster that hasn't played together before this year. Not to mention - the 54 win team he helped lead to the finals last year is on pace for 37 wins.

I'm not saying he clearly deserves it over others, but I think hes got a reasonable case to make for being more valuable than any other player in the league.

InRoseWeTrust
02-27-2015, 07:21 PM
This is a fun argument for Lebron fans to counter this year, because Lebron had the best stats in the league for about 6 years straight prior to last year, yet Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose both somehow won MVPs over Lebron despite being "statistically inferior", as you put it. So to answer your question - its clearly been established that having the best stats is not the criteria for winning the MVP award.

Reasons why he SHOULD win the award - hes the best player in the world, he can do more things well than any other player in the league, his team is 1-7 without him and 36-15 with him, he's led them to wins in 18 of their last 20, and hes got the Cavs knocking on the door of being the 2 seed in the East. And hes done all this with a 1st year NBA coach and a roster that hasn't played together before this year. Not to mention - the 54 win team he helped lead to the finals last year is on pace for 37 wins.

I'm not saying he clearly deserves it over others, but I think hes got a reasonable case to make for being more valuable than any other player in the league.

Pretty much that.

rhino17
02-27-2015, 07:41 PM
I'd argue ur performance in the second half of the season has much impact on the votes than the first half.

Harden and Curry have dominated on both halves of the season, James just one

tredigs
02-27-2015, 07:45 PM
This is a fun argument for Lebron fans to counter this year, because Lebron had the best stats in the league for about 6 years straight prior to last year, yet Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose both somehow won MVPs over Lebron despite being "statistically inferior", as you put it. So to answer your question - its clearly been established that having the best stats is not the criteria for winning the MVP award.

Reasons why he SHOULD win the award - hes the best player in the world, he can do more things well than any other player in the league, his team is 1-7 without him and 36-15 with him, he's led them to wins in 18 of their last 20, and hes got the Cavs knocking on the door of being the 2 seed in the East. And hes done all this with a 1st year NBA coach and a roster that hasn't played together before this year. Not to mention - the 54 win team he helped lead to the finals last year is on pace for 37 wins.

I'm not saying he clearly deserves it over others, but I think hes got a reasonable case to make for being more valuable than any other player in the league.

Those +stats are exactly why he won 4 of the last 6 MVP's and it took storylines to get Rose and Kobe theirs. Kobe was coming off of demonstrative scoring titles and the fans were growing restless that he hadn't won an MVP yet in his career. With both the Lakers coming back to relevance from a winning standpoint (1 seed) and Lebron's Cavs only a middle of the road team (what'd they win 40-45 games?), the young LBJ wasn't taking it over Kobe.

In D Rose's case it was the season Lebron left town to team up with 2 other superstars and Rose's Bulls still won more games than them in the conference with him as the young/ultra exciting superstar leading the way. I didn't agree with the vote, but it wasn't surprising. I'm not sure if you remember, but going into the year a lot of people were already dead-set against voting for him.

Interestingly, you saying "he's the best player in the world" is exactly why I'd argue he shouldn't be MVP. Why isn't the best player in the world putting up the best stats, or close to it? You really can't argue him for MVP if that's not the case while the preseason Title favorite Cavs currently have the 10th best win% in the NBA while playing in one of the worst conferences ever (inverse being true for the West and Curry/Harden).

I know we love to be a prisoner of the moment, but let's try to understand that this a full season award, twitter generation.

YashBoone
02-27-2015, 07:47 PM
**** Lebron .
Cavs were losing and couldn't their **** together till they got Mozgov and jr smith.

Steph curry gets mvp in my eyes

Master Mind
02-27-2015, 08:13 PM
Seeing how the refs are going to let Lebron heisman folk on the way to the hoop I have to believe he's gonna be in the top 2. Didn't want to believe it, in fact looked the other way but the NBA needs LeBron to succeed. Or that's just the way it seems. No hate guys just observations. With that being said Harden or Lebron wins

Hawkize31
02-27-2015, 08:26 PM
Those +stats are exactly why he won 4 of the last 6 MVP's and it took storylines to get Rose and Kobe theirs. Kobe was coming off of demonstrative scoring titles and the fans were growing restless that he hadn't won an MVP yet in his career. With both the Lakers coming back to relevance from a winning standpoint (1 seed) and Lebron's Cavs only a middle of the road team (what'd they win 40-45 games?), the young LBJ wasn't taking it over Kobe.

In D Rose's case it was the season Lebron left town to team up with 2 other superstars and Rose's Bulls still won more games than them in the conference with him as the young/ultra exciting superstar leading the way. I didn't agree with the vote, but it wasn't surprising. I'm not sure if you remember, but going into the year a lot of people were already dead-set against voting for him.

Interestingly, you saying "he's the best player in the world" is exactly why I'd argue he shouldn't be MVP. Why isn't the best player in the world putting up the best stats, or close to it? You really can't argue him for MVP if that's not the case while the preseason Title favorite Cavs currently have the 10th best win% in the NBA while playing in one of the worst conferences ever (inverse being true for the West and Curry/Harden).

I know we love to be a prisoner of the moment, but let's try to understand that this a full season award, twitter generation.

I would say back issues that have been bugging him this season, but I don't buy that.

I don't know this for sure, but my feeling is that Lebron coasts during stretches of the regular season, and he has for years now. No need to play every game like its game 7 of the finals. He can turn it up when he wants to - like when he scored 42 points in a W vs the Warriors last night. If he really wanted to score 30 in a given night, I don't think most teams could stop him from doing so.

I do think that should be a factor in the MVP race, too. But I still think hes got a decent shot at it, even with the coasting.

tredigs
02-27-2015, 08:53 PM
I would say back issues that have been bugging him this season, but I don't buy that.

I don't know this for sure, but my feeling is that Lebron coasts during stretches of the regular season, and he has for years now. No need to play every game like its game 7 of the finals. He can turn it up when he wants to - like when he scored 42 points in a W vs the Warriors last night. If he really wanted to score 30 in a given night, I don't think most teams could stop him from doing so.

I do think that should be a factor in the MVP race, too. But I still think hes got a decent shot at it, even with the coasting.

I'd be more willing to buy that if we didn't see him go to 4 straight finals. I do think he coasts in the East, and I also think it's a reason why he teams up with such elite talent in the lesser conference; it allows him to "coast" while still generally dominating. I don't think he has the energy to play 100% for an entire season anymore, I just don't. And we've also seen him coast in ECF games and Finals games (hell nearly the entire Mavs series), so it's proven his sometimes lackadaisical ways go beyond just being able to flip a switch.

Regardless, that's not exactly making the best case for MVP, particularly since this season he's not close to #1 in the advanced stats we're generally accustomed to him owning.

Looks like he's taking tonight off with Kyrie as well. Cavs on the b2b in Indy - W's without Curry lost this one earlier in the week.

IKnowHoops
02-27-2015, 09:09 PM
I'd be more willing to buy that if we didn't see him go to 4 straight finals. I do think he coasts in the East, and I also think it's a reason why he teams up with such elite talent in the lesser conference; it allows him to "coast" while still generally dominating. I don't think he has the energy to play 100% for an entire season anymore, I just don't. And we've also seen him coast in ECF games and Finals games (hell nearly the entire Mavs series), so it's proven his sometimes lackadaisical ways go beyond just being able to flip a switch.

Regardless, that's not exactly making the best case for MVP, particularly since this season he's not close to #1 in the advanced stats we're generally accustomed to him owning.

Looks like he's taking tonight off with Kyrie as well. Cavs on the b2b in Indy - W's without Curry lost this one earlier in the week.

Here you go. When they had this same team, you still were saying they weren't going to do anything. You said no one fears mosgov. You said they were not a top 10 team. Now they are elite talent. Nice Tre. When it comes to Lebron, every uttered word is salty.

And yesterday, It was Bron who single handedly stomped your team, not his elite talent.

tredigs
02-27-2015, 09:16 PM
Here you go. When they had this same team, you still were saying they weren't going to do anything. You said no one fears mosgov. You said they were not a top 10 team. Now they are elite talent. Nice Tre. When it comes to Lebron, every uttered word is salty.

And yesterday, It was Bron who single handedly stomped your team, not his elite talent.

Lmao -- big difference between teaming up with elite talent in the weak conference and me thinking a team can actually win a title. Their D with Shump is better and Mosgov actually has impressed me. I didn't think he'd be a discernible difference maker over Varajao and their early season massive struggles on that end, but their D is certainly better and that's making all the difference for them. With Rose done, I'd now favor them over the Bulls, and the Raps aren't very scary, neither is Washington. I still expect them to lose to the Hawks, and the West to win the title. Far too little synergy + playoff experience.

Regardless, as far as the MVP award goes, all my points stand. His case simply doesn't stand up.

Hawkize31
02-27-2015, 09:17 PM
I'd be more willing to buy that if we didn't see him go to 4 straight finals. I do think he coasts in the East, and I also think it's a reason why he teams up with such elite talent in the lesser conference; it allows him to "coast" while still generally dominating. I don't think he has the energy to play 100% for an entire season anymore, I just don't. And we've also seen him coast in ECF games and Finals games (hell nearly the entire Mavs series), so it's proven his sometimes lackadaisical ways go beyond just being able to flip a switch.

Regardless, that's not exactly making the best case for MVP, particularly since this season he's not close to #1 in the advanced stats we're generally accustomed to him owning.

Looks like he's taking tonight off with Kyrie as well. Cavs on the b2b in Indy - W's without Curry lost this one earlier in the week.

I think he teams up with elite talent because he wants to win championships - the same goal of every team that drafts, trades, and signs free agents, and the same goal of almost every player that signs a contract. When Curry and Harden sign with the 76ers and the Pistons let me know.

And yeah I agree, coasting isn't going to help him win MVPs, but its a good long term strategy for the real goal - winning in June. Its the same thing the Spurs do, and it pays dividends. If Lebron played like Westbrook every game, I think he'd win more MVPs, but have less playoff success and a shorter career. Tradeoff I guess.

Should be a close race - I think 5 guys have a real shot, and it could be very close.

tredigs
02-27-2015, 09:22 PM
I think he teams up with elite talent because he wants to win championships - the same goal of every team that drafts, trades, and signs free agents, and the same goal of almost every player that signs a contract. When Curry and Harden sign with the 76ers and the Pistons let me know.

And yeah I agree, coasting isn't going to help him win MVPs, but its a good long term strategy for the real goal - winning in June. Its the same thing the Spurs do, and it pays dividends. If Lebron played like Westbrook every game, I think he'd win more MVPs, but have less playoff success and a shorter career. Tradeoff I guess.

Should be a close race - I think 5 guys have a real shot, and it could be very close.

Well, seeing as this is an MVP thread, I think you're sort of making my point? Especially considering that while many thinks he coasted for periods in the past, he almost always had the best stats? Last season was the 1st in a while that he didn't, but this year it isn't close.

And yes, I agree. But that's not something he'd be able to pull off in the West, and then there's the odd "coasting" in the playoffs that we've seen occasionally. The true large black marks on his legacy, really.

Hawkize31
02-27-2015, 09:29 PM
Well, seeing as this is an MVP thread, I think you're sort of making my point? Especially considering that while many thinks he coasted for periods in the past, he almost always had the best stats? Last season was the 1st in a while that he didn't, but this year it isn't close.

And yes, I agree. But that's not something he'd be able to pull off in the West, and then there's the odd "coasting" in the playoffs that we've seen occasionally. The true large black marks on his legacy, really.

The great thing for Lebron is that hes not competing for this season's MVP award against himself from prior years. He's competing against all other players this year, and even with a significant statistical step down for Lebron, hes pretty much at the level of the top statistical players.

Or in other words, Lebrons worst statistical year in a long time is still near NBA MVP level.

tredigs
02-27-2015, 09:39 PM
The great thing for Lebron is that hes not competing for this season's MVP award against himself from prior years. He's competing against all other players this year, and even with a significant statistical step down for Lebron, hes pretty much at the level of the top statistical players.

Or in other words, Lebrons worst statistical year in a long time is still near NBA MVP level.


Ehhhh. No, not really:

His RPM is 6.3. Harden's is 8.05. Curry's at #1 at 8.59.
His PER is 25.8. Harden's is 27.1. Curry's #3 at 27.6
His WS/48 is .187. Harden's .276. Curry's #1 at .284

BPM, WAR, VORP, TS%, Orating, Defensive metrics? He trails in everything, and most of them significantly. These are the stats he dominated the past half decade. And he's also taken plenty of games off, including tonights, while Curry + Harden have been out there fighting virtually every game. There's really no legitimate case, although the media is starting to make it for him based on their recent run, so it's far from over in reality.

Goose17
02-28-2015, 10:56 AM
I only see Curry, Harden and LeBron as real contenders for the MVP award. Gasol is a dark horse but Memphis have been rocky recently.

LeBron has been a beast recently, but Harden and Curry have been beasts all year. In a MUCH tougher conference. Plus I would rather see Harden or Steph get it because I'm tired of LeBron winning it every other year. He's won 4 out of the last 6 lol.

I think it's between Harden and Steph. And I think if the Warriors can win the majority of their games from this point forward Steph will get it. I don't think LeBron gets it unless Cleveland go on an amazing run and drop like 18-4 in their last 22 games with LeBron having a good game in all of those wins.

beasted86
02-28-2015, 11:43 AM
Ehhhh. No, not really:

His RPM is 6.3. Harden's is 8.05. Curry's at #1 at 8.59.
His PER is 25.8. Harden's is 27.1. Curry's #3 at 27.6
His WS/48 is .187. Harden's .276. Curry's #1 at .284

BPM, WAR, VORP, TS%, Orating, Defensive metrics? He trails in everything, and most of them significantly. These are the stats he dominated the past half decade. And he's also taken plenty of games off, including tonights, while Curry + Harden have been out there fighting virtually every game. There's really no legitimate case, although the media is starting to make it for him based on their recent run, so it's far from over in reality.

Not trying to downplay any of what you deem as "proof", but do you honestly believe that the majority of MVP voters look at half of what you just posted to make their decision?

I think we can both agree the answer is "No", so it shouldn't even be brought up.

Anyway, my MVP would be Curry if the season ended today.

nastynice
02-28-2015, 11:53 AM
lebron and durant are still, and have been all year, the two best players in the league. But I think curry and harden are still the top mvp candidates. Lebron really hasn't done much outside of the past month+ to make a case for mvp, I don't really think people playing elite bball half the season should have a case over people playing elite entire season.

mngopher35
02-28-2015, 03:02 PM
It's curry right now with harden somewhat close behind. It would take a huge run from lebron/westy to really get into it. I think curry ends up getting it.

tredigs
02-28-2015, 03:04 PM
Not trying to downplay any of what you deem as "proof", but do you honestly believe that the majority of MVP voters look at half of what you just posted to make their decision?

I think we can both agree the answer is "No", so it shouldn't even be brought up.

Anyway, my MVP would be Curry if the season ended today.

So, you'd prefer to just argue the media narrative?

I'm arguing who the actual MVP is, not who the media is currently pushing. And still, that's what my last sentence is about. Go hit ESPN if you're just looking for that stance.

Goose17
02-28-2015, 03:14 PM
So, you'd prefer to just argue the media narrative?

I'm arguing who the actual MVP is, not who the media is currently pushing. And still, that's what my last sentence is about. Go hit ESPN if you're just looking for that stance.

Well considering the people who decide/vote the MVP are mostly sportswriters and broadcasters, some of whom work for said ESPN. I would say he has a point.

tredigs
02-28-2015, 03:50 PM
Well considering the people who decide/vote the MVP are mostly sportswriters and broadcasters, some of whom work for said ESPN. I would say he has a point.

Of course he has a point, it's just a lame one. If you don't want to discuss the actual MVP, just hit ESPN and see who's trending. That's your most likely MVP leader atm.

It goes along with my point of while the #'s show that Lebron is nowhere near the actual MVP this season, the media narrative has him squarely in there with Curry, Harden and Westbrook (losing last nights game hurt him big time though - his name would be jumping to #1 in many news cycles had he won the ESPN game).

Goose17
02-28-2015, 04:04 PM
Of course he has a point, it's just a lame one. If you don't want to discuss the actual MVP, just hit ESPN and see who's trending. That's your most likely MVP leader atm.

It goes along with my point of while the #'s show that Lebron is nowhere near the actual MVP this season, the media narrative has him squarely in there with Curry, Harden and Westbrook (losing last nights game hurt him big time though - his name would be jumping to #1 in many news cycles had he won the ESPN game).

I get your point. But we don't know if the people voting for MVP look at things like RPM, VORP, TS%, win shares etc etc.

The fact that most of them are writing and reporting that LeBron is as good and as likely to be MVP sort of hints that maybe they don't look at those things or don't put as much value into them.

tredigs
02-28-2015, 04:13 PM
I get your point. But we don't know if the people voting for MVP look at things like RPM, VORP, TS%, win shares etc etc.

The fact that most of them are writing and reporting that LeBron is as good and as likely to be MVP sort of hints that maybe they don't look at those things or don't put as much value into them.
Yes, Goose... I realize this my friend...

Most NBA voters are 45-70 yr old play by play announcers for their home team, radio guys, media personalities, etc. I can tell you unequivocally that a large portion of them don't know or care about most of these stats. They're the old guard. I'd wager that many only get to watch these MVP candidates play a handful of times each season (wouldn't surprise me in the least if Warriors broadcaster and MVP voter Bob Fitzgerald has only seen LBJ 1x this season, for example) as they're often busy with whatever team/job they're associated with.

I'd rather discuss the MVP at a higher level with people who watch more games and delve into the advanced #'s a bit more.

I prefer to look

Goose17
02-28-2015, 04:16 PM
Yes, Goose... I realize this my friend...

Most NBA voters are 45-70 yr old play by play announcers for their home team, radio guys, media personalities, etc. I can tell you unequivocally that a large portion of them don't know or care about most of these stats. They're the old guard. I'd wager that many only get to watch these MVP candidates play a handful of times each season (wouldn't surprise me in the least if Warriors broadcaster and MVP voter Bob Fitzgerald has only seen LBJ 1x this season, for example) as they're often busy with whatever team/job they're associated with.

I'd rather discuss the MVP at a higher level with people who watch more games and delve into the advanced #'s a bit more.

I prefer to look

I get it. I agree.

All he was saying though is LeBron does have a chance of winning because the reasons we wouldn't vote for him aren't really taken into consideration by the people who actually vote. He's right.

tredigs
02-28-2015, 04:36 PM
I get it. I agree.

All he was saying though is LeBron does have a chance of winning because the reasons we wouldn't vote for him aren't really taken into consideration by the people who actually vote. He's right.

lol so, reiterated exactly what I said at the end of the original post he quoted me in then? Glad we had this talk.


There's really no legitimate case, although the media is starting to make it for him based on their recent run, so it's far from over in reality.

^

Goose17
02-28-2015, 05:49 PM
If you look at shot charts there's a heat map option (I'm sure most of you have seen these), anyway, the heat maps for these MVP candidates is quite interesting;

Russel Westbrook
[SPOILER TAG]http://i58.tinypic.com/szvpk5.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

LeBron James
[SPOILER TAG]http://i62.tinypic.com/11ie421.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

James Harden
[SPOILER TAG]http://i62.tinypic.com/2m5nno1.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

Stephen Curry
[SPOILER TAG] http://i58.tinypic.com/2yttnc5.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

Goose17
02-28-2015, 05:50 PM
lol so, reiterated exactly what I said at the end of the original post he quoted me in then? Glad we had this talk.



^

No because you said there's no legitimate case. There is. He's more likely to win it than anyone else if the media is on his side.

Cal827
02-28-2015, 06:01 PM
For me, it's a 3 player race:

Curry
Harden
Westbrook

Westbrook has a shot if that team gets into the playoffs, cause he's put up great numbers while that team has endured injuries, in a brutal conference.

Harden has been fantastic on one of the best teams in the League, while also enduring injuries to the other star on the team. I'm personally shocked that they're still in the top 3 range without Howard, who (despite struggling under pressure), is a very good defensive player.

Curry has been similar to Harden, but that team has become outright horrifying. He's basically a threat from anywhere on the court, and his team is the best in the league. If they do lose the 1 spot however to Memphis, then it'll get real interesting in the race.

Right now it's between Harden/Curry, but since I know Bosstone likes Harden, I'm just going to vote for Curry out of spite :D

But truth be told, I'm 50-50 between Harden and Curry. If Harden wins it, I can't wait for the articles that come out that further rip the OKC's FO :laugh2:

tredigs
02-28-2015, 06:07 PM
No because you said there's no legitimate case. There is. He's more likely to win it than anyone else if the media is on his side.

Lol - are you having an issue with the semantics of the word legitimate in my point, or just being annoying to be annoying? Would "justifiable/true/rightful" be a better word choice for me to get across what I feel is a very clear point? The reality of the voters opinions and the actual most deserving MVP don't always go hand in hand. Being that we're not inside the voters heads and don't control the media, I'd argue it's more valid to actually argue who I think the most "rightful" MVP candidates are (while openly acknowledging that doesn't necessarily mean the eventual winner). You sticking with me here?... : /

Goose17
02-28-2015, 06:17 PM
I agree. I just don't know why you had an issue with the guy for saying LeBron might win it because the people voting don't give a crap about any of the stats you were referencing. He's right. Why not just ignore his post? You know he's right. Why bother trying to dismiss it by saying you want to discuss who really deserves it in your mind because in your mind that's different from who the media choose.

At the end of the day I think we all have an opinion on who deserves it and why. What you base that opinion on is the only real difference.

The only correct answer is Steph though. ;)

jerellh528
02-28-2015, 06:18 PM
If you look at shot charts there's a heat map option (I'm sure most of you have seen these), anyway, the heat maps for these MVP candidates is quite interesting;

Russel Westbrook
[SPOILER TAG]http://i58.tinypic.com/szvpk5.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

LeBron James
[SPOILER TAG]http://i62.tinypic.com/11ie421.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

James Harden
[SPOILER TAG]http://i62.tinypic.com/2m5nno1.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

Stephen Curry
[SPOILER TAG] http://i58.tinypic.com/2yttnc5.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

Lol that was actually quite good.

beasted86
02-28-2015, 06:22 PM
Yes, Goose... I realize this my friend...

Most NBA voters are 45-70 yr old play by play announcers for their home team, radio guys, media personalities, etc. I can tell you unequivocally that a large portion of them don't know or care about most of these stats. They're the old guard. I'd wager that many only get to watch these MVP candidates play a handful of times each season (wouldn't surprise me in the least if Warriors broadcaster and MVP voter Bob Fitzgerald has only seen LBJ 1x this season, for example) as they're often busy with whatever team/job they're associated with.

I'd rather discuss the MVP at a higher level with people who watch more games and delve into the advanced #'s a bit more.

I prefer to look

Don't you see how inherently flawed your view is then?

You are letting a small segment of advanced stat categories carry the full burden of your argument knowing that probably 99% of the voters and 99% of fans don't care about them.

It's the equivalent of arguing about which car has the best performance and then only harping ad naseum about skid pad results and turning a blind eye to every other measurement and then basically claiming anyone who doesn't only view skid pads is a fool with a simpleton view of drawing a conclusion from results. Your argument becomes completely pointless and redundant and doesn't engage a discussion about anything. It's basically an "I'm right and my opinion is fact" statement you're making.

Anyway, have fun I guess.

tredigs
02-28-2015, 06:23 PM
Those heat maps illuminate just how insanely regimented Harden is with his shot selection. All 3's/layups and elbow jumpers. Probably one of the most precise you'll ever find from a player at his volume. Had to look at DJ's... it's awesome. Just a ball of light under the hoop.

tredigs
02-28-2015, 06:27 PM
Don't you see how inherently flawed your view is then?

You are letting a small segment of advanced stat categories carry the full burden of your argument knowing that probably 99% of the voters and 99% of fans don't care about them.

It's the equivalent of arguing about which car has the best performance and then only harping ad naseum about skid pad results and turning a blind eye to every other measurement and then basically claiming anyone who doesn't only view skid pads is a fool with a simpleton view of drawing a conclusion from results. Your argument becomes completely pointless and redundant and doesn't engage a discussion about anything. It's basically an "I'm right and my opinion is fact" statement you're making.

Anyway, have fun I guess.

Because of one post I made stating a multitude of facts (many of them cumulative) the argument is "pointless and redundant". That's hilarious - Skid-pad? The ****. That would be akin to me pointing out Curry leading the league in SPG or Westbrook in ast% as reasons why they should be MVP. The only reason I'm posting is for the discussion. Do you actually have anything of worth to add other than, "but the media doesn't know those"? Because I'm really not nearly as interested as trying to predict what media members will think as I am what has actually happened over the course of the year. And I'd be very surprised if there's more than 5% of MVP voters who have seen more in game action of the top 5 candidates than some of the more NBA savvy posters here; specifically those who are betting on the games.

JordansBulls
03-01-2015, 09:47 PM
Who would you pick right now?

bucketss
03-01-2015, 09:48 PM
the beard.

mightybosstone
03-01-2015, 09:48 PM
How many MVP threads do we need? Apparently more than one...

goingfor28
03-01-2015, 09:49 PM
I'll take Harden bc he's kept the Rockets strong even without Dwight. Can't go wrong with either choice though, both are deserving imo

KnicksorBust
03-01-2015, 09:49 PM
How often do we have to poll this? We should just bring back a "Race to the MVP" thread.

RLundi
03-01-2015, 09:53 PM
Slight edge to Harden.

mngopher35
03-01-2015, 09:55 PM
I'd give slight edge to curry right now. I think if one of them has any sort of storyline in the last few weeks they will win off that.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2015, 10:35 PM
How often do we have to poll this? We should just bring back a "Race to the MVP" thread.

:)

kdspurman
03-01-2015, 10:38 PM
:)

;)

tredigs
03-01-2015, 10:47 PM
Lebron had a lackluster game supplemented by OT and still had a chance to win over the crowd for MVP w/ 2 last second FTs to win the game on National TV. But, he choked. As hard as you can choke. He's done.

2 man race.

GoBroncos!!
03-01-2015, 11:26 PM
Curry, for sure. LeBron's a close second, though.

nastynice
03-02-2015, 02:09 AM
hah, just saw couple clips (by way of spurs fan) of some sweet handles from the top 2 mvp candidates, might as well post them here

Harden
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/3/1/8130455/james-harden-crossover-lebron-james-swatting-air-rockets-cavaliers

Curry
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/2/26/8118481/kyrie-irving-reaches-stephen-curry-teaches

These guys been doing some pretty amazing things ALL YEAR. I just can't see Lebron making a case while playing significantly lower level up til the all star break. If he was playing how he is now all year, I'd think he has a shot.

Just LOVE when Curry makes opposing crowds collectively "ohh", which is pretty often. his handles are just ridiculous

Zefflin
03-02-2015, 06:20 AM
Clearly it's a 2 man race(Harden and Curry) with Westbrook coming from behind for 3rd...Lebron for MVP...haha! GTFO more like Mozgov for MVP

bucketss
03-02-2015, 12:45 PM
Clearly it's a 2 man race(Harden and Curry) with Westbrook coming from behind for 3rd...Lebron for MVP...haha! GTFO more like Mozgov for MVP

not like anyone is making a case for him, he only has one vote, seems like you might be obsessed with bron.

IKnowHoops
03-02-2015, 01:05 PM
Lebron had a lackluster game supplemented by OT and still had a chance to win over the crowd for MVP w/ 2 last second FTs to win the game on National TV. But, he choked. As hard as you can choke. He's done.

2 man race.

What you fail to realize is that Curry played way worse and was absolutely shut down by Iman Shumpert in and nationally televised games a few days ago in which Lebron cemented himself as by far the better player. Still to many games to call who the MVP is gonna be. The fact that everyone knows Lebron is a far superior player will play a roll in the final MVP voting. Lebrons off game, and Curry's off game are worlds apart. Al Bron has to do is come back and play better and this will still be forgotten.

valade16
03-02-2015, 01:35 PM
I think it's actually a 3 man race.

Curry and Harden are the favorites but Westbrook is the darkhorse. If Durant misses much more time and OKC continues to rise in the standings getting somewhere between 4-6 I could see a case to be made.

Goose17
03-02-2015, 02:56 PM
Any word on Westys injury?

tredigs
03-02-2015, 11:54 PM
What you fail to realize is that Curry played way worse and was absolutely shut down by Iman Shumpert in and nationally televised games a few days ago in which Lebron cemented himself as by far the better player. Still to many games to call who the MVP is gonna be. The fact that everyone knows Lebron is a far superior player will play a roll in the final MVP voting. Lebrons off game, and Curry's off game are worlds apart. Al Bron has to do is come back and play better and this will still be forgotten.

You're a sad, delusional man.


I think it's actually a 3 man race.

Curry and Harden are the favorites but Westbrook is the darkhorse. If Durant misses much more time and OKC continues to rise in the standings getting somewhere between 4-6 I could see a case to be made.
What do you mean continuing to rise, though? They haven't been gaining ground with Westbrook alone.

IKnowHoops
03-03-2015, 03:45 AM
You're a sad, delusional man.



Lmbo...coming from the guy who said cleveland was not a top 10 team and wouldn't make any real improvements after the Mozgov, Shumpert, JR trade. You need to take a look in the mirror.

Curry choked bad today, did nothing all game till the last 5 min, got scored on for the game winner, and then missed under the hoop to win. All of this against the lowly Brookland nets...an eastern conference dog, ha! He's done...2 man race.

tredigs
03-03-2015, 03:56 AM
Lmbo...coming from the guy who said cleveland was not a top 10 team and wouldn't make any real improvements after the Mozgov, Shumpert, JR trade. You need to take a look in the mirror.

Curry choked bad today, did nothing all game till the last 5 min, got scored on for the game winner, and then missed under the hoop to win. All of this from the lowly Brookland nets...an eastern conference dog, ha! He's done...2 man race.

You said you're 37 years old, correct?

I'm contemplating contacting authorities...

IKnowHoops
03-03-2015, 04:53 AM
You said you're 37 years old, correct?

I'm contemplating contacting authorities...

Your rank game is whack

valade16
03-03-2015, 10:58 AM
What do you mean continuing to rise, though? They haven't been gaining ground with Westbrook alone.

I meant continuing to rise up the standings in general. People are going to give Westbrook credit for them not plummeting with Durant out and then gaining ground with Durant in.

tredigs
03-03-2015, 12:44 PM
I meant continuing to rise up the standings in general. People are going to give Westbrook credit for them not plummeting with Durant out and then gaining ground with Durant in.

I'd say CP3 has a stronger case than both Westbrook and Lebron for #3.

Verbal Christ
03-03-2015, 01:49 PM
Your rank game is whack

LMAO ... What? You dont remember when you turned 21 and became this pro gambler and master handicapper that bragged on sports forums about 'lines that i wont touch' ? This is one of those times that i was okay with the ignore function not working on a quote! Good stuff.

tredigs
03-03-2015, 04:04 PM
Lol at 'pro gambler'. I'm happy with any winning month, let alone pro status. I bet because it's fun and a challenge, and I like to put my money where my mouth is. If you can't win money betting on the NBA, by definition, you don't know what you're talking about.

Speaking of which, it looks like Curry is still a massive MVP favorite in Vegas:

Curry: -200
Harden: +300
Lebron: +375
Westbrook: +450

https://twitter.com/BovadaLV/status/572831379727233024

For the non degenerate, that means if you put $100 on Curry to win, you'd get back $150, and if you put $100 on Harden, you'd get back $400, etc.

If you guys truly feel somebody other than Curry is going to win, there's an amazing investment opportunity for you. You're not going to see that level of turnaround betting on stocks, that's for sure.

edit: Wrong names

nastynice
03-03-2015, 06:44 PM
Lol at 'pro gambler'. I'm happy with any winning month, let alone pro status. I bet because it's fun and a challenge, and I like to put my money where my mouth is. If you can't win money betting on the NBA, by definition, you don't know what you're talking about.

Speaking of which, it looks like Curry is still a massive MVP favorite in Vegas:

Curry: -200
Harden: +300
Lebron: +375
Westbrook: +450

https://twitter.com/BovadaLV/status/572831379727233024

For the non degenerate, that means if you put $100 on Curry to win, you'd get back $150, and if you put $100 on Harden, you'd get back $400, etc.

If you guys truly feel somebody other than Curry is going to win, there's an amazing investment opportunity for you. You're not going to see that level of turnaround betting on stocks, that's for sure.

edit: Wrong names

wow, those are some insane odds. I like Curry being up there, but I dont think he's THAT far ahead of the pack, or at least Harden.

I'll second what tredigs is saying, if someone REALLY feels someone else is gonna win, you just can't pass up 4:1 odds

tredigs
03-04-2015, 04:39 AM
wow, those are some insane odds. I like Curry being up there, but I dont think he's THAT far ahead of the pack, or at least Harden.

I'll second what tredigs is saying, if someone REALLY feels someone else is gonna win, you just can't pass up 4:1 odds

Agreed -- they seem slightly overly weighted for Curry, but I still wouldn't bet against him.

People here would, though. If you have some spare cash and a sack to back up your comments, hit up Bovada, etc. The $ is there for you.

JordansBulls
03-04-2015, 05:04 PM
Curry, for sure. LeBron's a close second, though.

:confused:

How is he a close 2nd when he doesn't even lead his team in win shares?

IKnowHoops
03-04-2015, 11:59 PM
:confused:

How is he a close 2nd when he doesn't even lead his team in win shares?

Because he's played less games than the player above him. His win48 is the highest on the team, and by the end of the season he will easily lead his team in winshares.

bucketss
03-05-2015, 12:30 AM
:confused:

How is he a close 2nd when he doesn't even lead his team in win shares?

lol i want to ask you a question, remember you said irving was the leader of cleveland because he won all star game mvp the previous year?, so is westbrook now the leader of the thunder over durant?

FlashBolt
03-05-2015, 02:45 AM
Harden for me atm.

Master Mind
03-05-2015, 03:15 AM
Russellmania! Boy he's been on tear. Hard to not put him in the top 3

FlashBolt
03-05-2015, 03:21 AM
Russellmania! Boy he's been on tear. Hard to not put him in the top 3
Let it be known that Russ would have had 5 straight triple doubles had he not sat out early against Denver. 21/8/17 in 27 min. This guy is the second best PG and the past two months, the best player.

RaiderKid318
03-05-2015, 03:27 AM
Going with Davis as a homer and because all the other teams have other players that can take over a game and win it. Whereas the pels have Davis and that is about it lol.

Munkeysuit
03-05-2015, 04:20 AM
Wow, I am sincerely mind boggled by some of your replies to this post! it's like some of you just started watching basketball last weekend...and I wish I was joking with that statement. Lebron isn't going to win the MVP, but it's not because he's on a team with tons of help in a weak Eastern conference, its simply because Harden & Curry (my 2 top candidates) are just simply outplaying him and on better teams!
Give credit when it's due, but dont do it while dumping a load on everything and everyone else geez! state your opinions responsibly, I hate coming here feeling like I cant even read some decent posts, some of you people need to start thinking about what your posting before you even type it.

Goose17
03-05-2015, 09:37 AM
Russellmania! Boy he's been on tear. Hard to not put him in the top 3

It's actually pretty easy considering his team STILL have a chance of not even making the playoffs and he's only been playing like this since February.

IKnowHoops
03-05-2015, 11:44 PM
It's actually pretty easy considering his team STILL have a chance of not even making the playoffs and he's only been playing like this since February.

If Russ keeps this play up for the rest of the year, and OKC makes the playoffs, then his sample size will be big enough and his sustained peak high enough for him to be the MVP if every other player continues to produce the same. He will have been the unquestioned best player in the league by far for almost half a season, with a sustained peak higher than any other player by a strong amount.

tredigs
03-06-2015, 12:04 AM
Russ kills OKC when he pulls up for the quick mid-range jumper. It's the lowest% shot in the game and he's obsessed with it. Remove that and he'll be thoroughly dominating... but he went 3-13 from there again tonight... terrible. And that's 3 losses in their last 5, with the 2 wins being very tough games against the tanking Lakers and Sixers. They're struggling. The team needs a healthy KD back in a major way.

flea
03-06-2015, 12:18 AM
Russ kills OKC when he pulls up for the quick mid-range jumper. It's the lowest% shot in the game and he's obsessed with it. Remove that and he'll be thoroughly dominating... but he went 3-13 from there again tonight... terrible. And that's 3 losses in their last 5, with the 2 wins being very tough games against the tanking Lakers and Sixers. They're struggling. The team needs a healthy KD back in a major way.

What's he going to do? He's a bad shooter but with how much he goes at the rim already he can at least make that shot at tolerable levels. Plus, I think TS% underrates the value of a credible midrange game. I feel this is more true for bigs than guards, but either way even if it's a "bad shot" based on percentages you need it to keep defenders playing you a certain way.

Defenders already play Westbrook like they do Lebron - with a ton of space. If he couldn't and wouldn't even shoot those they'd essentially just wall the paint off and easily shut him down. That's why guys like reliant on rim runs wilt in the playoffs unless they've got something around them to prevent it (ie good shooting teammates or a strong post game).

That said, he did shoot his team out of the game in the 4th. But for as much praise as he gets around here, that's the downside. You've got to take that with the good. And this wasn't even one of his clunkers he'll put up every 10 or 12 games or so - he was just terrible in the 4th.

tredigs
03-06-2015, 12:44 AM
What's he going to do? He's a bad shooter but with how much he goes at the rim already he can at least make that shot at tolerable levels. Plus, I think TS% underrates the value of a credible midrange game. I feel this is more true for bigs than guards, but either way even if it's a "bad shot" based on percentages you need it to keep defenders playing you a certain way.

Defenders already play Westbrook like they do Lebron - with a ton of space. If he couldn't and wouldn't even shoot those they'd essentially just wall the paint off and easily shut him down. That's why guys like reliant on rim runs wilt in the playoffs unless they've got something around them to prevent it (ie good shooting teammates or a strong post game).

That said, he did shoot his team out of the game in the 4th. But for as much praise as he gets around here, that's the downside. You've got to take that with the good. And this wasn't even one of his clunkers he'll put up every 10 or 12 games or so - he was just terrible in the 4th.

You're saying this as if he's the only player on the floor though. "What's he supposed to do?". How about, pass? Run a set? He's the PG and a highly capable playmaker; far too many of these mid-range chucks are early in the clock and contested. I agree in the value of a mid-range threat in your arsenal, but he uses it as an attack-first option much too heavily, and it's the main reason for his weak shooting #'s on absurd volume over the past week or two. I think he's up to 35 attempts a game over the last 4?

Westbrook's an absolute monster, but he gets in his own way on occasion, and tonight was an example of that again.

Pakman
03-06-2015, 01:43 AM
It has to be curry

nastynice
03-08-2015, 10:22 PM
You guys feel Westbrook can legitimately make an MVP case at this point??

I ****in love his style, he is playing like he's possessed by a demon, just a freakin monster!! I hope he keeps that facemask on, lol, just makes him look crazier and fits his whole persona

nastynice
03-08-2015, 10:30 PM
haha, this vid right here is westbrook in a nutshell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMIo_XPWQs

what a psycho!! lol, I love it!

tredigs
03-08-2015, 10:51 PM
Honestly OKC looks like **** with Westbrook at the helm. I get the fact that high point totals and triple doubles are very impressive to people (and there's no denying that what he does out there is really impressive to watch), but the guy is not an MVP. Hell, in 7 of the 11games over this past month of action, OKC has actually increased their lead or closed the deficit with him on the bench. They barely look like a .500 team without KD, how can he realistically be an MVP? Without Russ last year, both KD and the Thunder were CRUSHING teams. That's why he won. Also, Westbrook has missed a quarter of the season. People are way too caught up in him right now.

jerellh528
03-08-2015, 11:37 PM
Dang 75% of tres posts lately are downing westbrook in some way. Don't worry bro, westy still has some ground to make up before he overtakes the mvp.

tredigs
03-08-2015, 11:41 PM
Dang 75% of tres posts lately are downing westbrook in some way. Don't worry bro, westy still has some ground to make up before he overtakes the mvp.

I'm just here to help keep the masses in check ; ) Do you take exception or have an argument against anything I wrote?

jerellh528
03-08-2015, 11:51 PM
I'm just here to help keep the masses in check ; ) Do you take exception or have an argument against anything I wrote?

I think for that team makeup without kd, Westbrook is necessary, and he's been on a historic tear. Okc won't win crap without kd, but I think despite the stats, westbrook has been keeping them afloat at least. I don't really have a strong feeling either way even though I love westy. But I'm from the side of the fence where there's far more to the game of basketball than stats, and westbrooks impact is easily apparent to the team right now. He probably won't win mvp because of curry or harden, but he's doing his best to put himself in the dual horse race. Everything you've been writing of late has been technically factual, but Westbrook's play deserves more than a statistical analysis imo. He's beasting. No issues with what you're writing though, just a little observation lol

tredigs
03-09-2015, 01:00 AM
I think for that team makeup without kd, Westbrook is necessary, and he's been on a historic tear. Okc won't win crap without kd, but I think despite the stats, westbrook has been keeping them afloat at least. I don't really have a strong feeling either way even though I love westy. But I'm from the side of the fence where there's far more to the game of basketball than stats, and westbrooks impact is easily apparent to the team right now. He probably won't win mvp because of curry or harden, but he's doing his best to put himself in the dual horse race. Everything you've been writing of late has been technically factual, but Westbrook's play deserves more than a statistical analysis imo. He's beasting. No issues with what you're writing though, just a little observation lol

I mean, he's leading them to about .500 ball and in the fight for the 8 seed, but is that warrant for "best player in the NBA?" and MVP talks? They're 12-10 with Westbrook and no KD. Last year they were 22-10 with KD and no Westbrook. Both are crucial to their success as a title contender, but KD is the much more important player for them. And this should not be in question (as it is by many right now).

jerellh528
03-09-2015, 02:00 AM
I mean, he's leading them to about .500 ball and in the fight for the 8 seed, but is that warrant for "best player in the NBA?" and MVP talks? They're 12-10 with Westbrook and no KD. Last year they were 22-10 with KD and no Westbrook. Both are crucial to their success as a title contender, but KD is the much more important player for them. And this should not be in question (as it is by many right now).

100% agree that kd is by far the most important player on that team. That team sucks minus kd and westy though, westy is keeping them above water in the west when otherwise they would be floundering with that roster. Add kd into the mix and they become contenders, but I think the hysteria is caused by the manner in which westy is keeping them afloat, it's such a spectacle. There's not too many other players in the league that could keep that roster without kd above water in the very competative west. Obviously curry and harden have been far more consistent leading their respective teams to far better records though, so unless they both falter or okc goes on like a 10 game winning streak with westbrook playing at the same level without kd, he won't win mvp. Which is unlikely anyways because kd should be back soon hopefully.

tredigs
03-09-2015, 02:37 AM
Is Kanter/Ibaka with Adams/Singler/Collison/DJ Augustin that bad though? I don't know, I have to imagine there are at least 10 players who could lead a roster with that talent level to as good or better than a 12-10 record. Curry/CP3/Lebron/Harden/KD/AD/Griffin/LMA,M Gasol all come to mind for sure. The raw #'s are insane (including the field goal attempts and turnovers), but it's translating to "meh".

IKnowHoops
03-09-2015, 04:28 AM
I love Westy, and he's putting up huge numbers, but do to his "Kobe gun mode" like inefficiency, there is a good amount of fools gold mixed in with his stats. He's just putting up to many shots at a low FG%. That is costing his team wins.

mightybosstone
03-09-2015, 08:52 AM
Is Kanter/Ibaka with Adams/Singler/Collison/DJ Augustin that bad though? I don't know, I have to imagine there are at least 10 players who could lead a roster with that talent level to as good or better than a 12-10 record. Curry/CP3/Lebron/Harden/KD/AD/Griffin/LMA,M Gasol all come to mind for sure. The raw #'s are insane (including the field goal attempts and turnovers), but it's translating to "meh".

I look at OKC's supporting cast right now, and I don't think it's much worse than Harden's supporting cast with Dwight out of the lineup. I do think Houston is deeper, but Harden doesn't have nearly as reliable a No. 2 as Ibaka, and he's without Houston's defensive anchor in Dwight. Hell, I think Houston's record without Dwight might be better than their record with him.

valade16
03-09-2015, 08:58 AM
I mean, he's leading them to about .500 ball and in the fight for the 8 seed, but is that warrant for "best player in the NBA?" and MVP talks? They're 12-10 with Westbrook and no KD. Last year they were 22-10 with KD and no Westbrook. Both are crucial to their success as a title contender, but KD is the much more important player for them. And this should not be in question (as it is by many right now).

While true that more so speaks to who is the more valuable player overall not necessarily who has played like the most valuable player in a given season. By your metric the MVP should be LeBron James because no matter what, he is the most valuable player on the planet.

Also, do you think that team wins should matter (we know they do, but should they) when discussing MVP? Should Anthony Davis be below say LMA or Marc Gasol despite his clearly superior numbers and impact because his team simply doesn't win as much?

valade16
03-09-2015, 09:14 AM
Is Kanter/Ibaka with Adams/Singler/Collison/DJ Augustin that bad though? I don't know, I have to imagine there are at least 10 players who could lead a roster with that talent level to as good or better than a 12-10 record. Curry/CP3/Lebron/Harden/KD/AD/Griffin/LMA,M Gasol all come to mind for sure. The raw #'s are insane (including the field goal attempts and turnovers), but it's translating to "meh".


I look at OKC's supporting cast right now, and I don't think it's much worse than Harden's supporting cast with Dwight out of the lineup. I do think Houston is deeper, but Harden doesn't have nearly as reliable a No. 2 as Ibaka, and he's without Houston's defensive anchor in Dwight. Hell, I think Houston's record without Dwight might be better than their record with him.

But is he a good #2? This season while having to play as the No. 2 option much more his efficiency has plummeted. His TS% is the lowest of his career. He gets to the line less and jacks up a ton more 3 pointers. He has a negative OBPM. His Ortg is the lowest since his rookie season.

I've been saying it for years, Ibaka is overrated. He is a great #3 option because he can hit open shots and he gets a ton of them with defenses focused on Westy and KD, but he is a terrible #2 option. I think Houston's roster without Dwight and Harden is better than OKC's without KD and Westy. GS it's not even a question.

Goose17
03-09-2015, 01:16 PM
Should Anthony Davis be below say LMA or Marc Gasol despite his clearly superior numbers and impact because his team simply doesn't win as much?

Yes. IMO.

tredigs
03-09-2015, 03:09 PM
I look at OKC's supporting cast right now, and I don't think it's much worse than Harden's supporting cast with Dwight out of the lineup. I do think Houston is deeper, but Harden doesn't have nearly as reliable a No. 2 as Ibaka, and he's without Houston's defensive anchor in Dwight. Hell, I think Houston's record without Dwight might be better than their record with him.
Houston's is probably better because of their Defense. That's the elite part of their team that is going unnoticed. Very smart/aggressive team D that still ranks in the top 5 even without Howard. Without Harden they'd lose a ton of games simply because their offense would go from middling to weak, but yeah it's better than OKC's squad right now (Brooks not being an NBA level coach and maximizing his players doesn't help).


While true that more so speaks to who is the more valuable player overall not necessarily who has played like the most valuable player in a given season. By your metric the MVP should be LeBron James because no matter what, he is the most valuable player on the planet.

Also, do you think that team wins should matter (we know they do, but should they) when discussing MVP? Should Anthony Davis be below say LMA or Marc Gasol despite his clearly superior numbers and impact because his team simply doesn't win as much?

You're misconstruing what I'm saying. Obviously I don't think KD should be MVP, nor has Lebron been this years most impactful/best player and he should not be MVP either. And yes, wins should matter, as should context. I'd have AD over LMA without question, but over Marc is a tougher debate. Gasol doesn't have/need anywhere near AD's usage because that is not his role (and he couldn't do AD's role), but in what he does do, he's absolutely vital to his team and also offers advantages that Davis can't compete with. This isn't the best point of comparison, but if they were to switch teams, I think both squads are probably worse off.

tredigs
03-09-2015, 03:14 PM
I love Westy, and he's putting up huge numbers, but do to his "Kobe gun mode" like inefficiency, there is a good amount of fools gold mixed in with his stats. He's just putting up to many shots at a low FG%. That is costing his team wins.

To the point where OKC has actually been better with him off the court over this stretch. His #'s are impressive from a sheer "awe" standpoint, but he's not running a winning brand of basketball, and he's going to absolutely exhaust himself for the playoffs (if they make it) in the process. Actually who am I kidding - he's an energizer bunny he'll probably be fine. Missing 1/4th of the season doesn't hurt the legs on the late push either.

valade16
03-09-2015, 03:28 PM
You're misconstruing what I'm saying. Obviously I don't think KD should be MVP, nor has Lebron been this years most impactful/best player and he should not be MVP either. And yes, wins should matter, as should context. I'd have AD over LMA without question, but over Marc is a tougher debate. Gasol doesn't have/need anywhere near AD's usage because that is not his role (and he couldn't do AD's role), but in what he does do, he's absolutely vital to his team and also offers advantages that Davis can't compete with. This isn't the best point of comparison, but if they were to switch teams, I think both squads are probably worse off.

Fair enough. Your criteria for MVP is consistent so I can't fault you for it.

And I think Curry has been the MVP this season, everyone has ebbed and flowed at or near the top but Curry has stayed at or near the top the entire season in every phase (winning, advanced stats, etc.).

IKnowHoops
03-09-2015, 04:08 PM
But is he a good #2? This season while having to play as the No. 2 option much more his efficiency has plummeted. His TS% is the lowest of his career. He gets to the line less and jacks up a ton more 3 pointers. He has a negative OBPM. His Ortg is the lowest since his rookie season.

I've been saying it for years, Ibaka is overrated. He is a great #3 option because he can hit open shots and he gets a ton of them with defenses focused on Westy and KD, but he is a terrible #2 option. I think Houston's roster without Dwight and Harden is better than OKC's without KD and Westy. GS it's not even a question.

Can't stand that Ibaka has taken his game out to the 3pt line. Be a big man. Your 7 foot. Let the wings shoot 3's. At least then you can get a rebound. When he's out there shooting 3's, he's less likely to make it than a wing, and the team is less likely to rebound his miss because a wing is under the rim fighting with a center. Just a loose loose situation.

FlashBolt
03-09-2015, 06:04 PM
I think it's fair to say the MVP should and will come down to Curry and Harden. James lost this one already. KD, if not injured, would most likely be the MVP again. LeBron's MVP years are over tbh.

nastynice
03-09-2015, 06:53 PM
I think it's fair to say the MVP should and will come down to Curry and Harden. James lost this one already. KD, if not injured, would most likely be the MVP again. LeBron's MVP years are over tbh.

no way! He's still the best player in the league. He was just in cruise control for half the season, that's why he has no shot now. Obviously is this is how he keeps playing then yea, they're over, but if he goes all out from beginning to end, he's going to be very much in the mvp discussion.

KnicksorBust
03-09-2015, 07:36 PM
Can't stand that Ibaka has taken his game out to the 3pt line. Be a big man. Your 7 foot. Let the wings shoot 3's. At least then you can get a rebound. When he's out there shooting 3's, he's less likely to make it than a wing, and the team is less likely to rebound his miss because a wing is under the rim fighting with a center. Just a loose loose situation.

His shooting is going to make Durant and Westbrook that much harder to guard in the playoffs.

See: Bosh, Chris

KnicksorBust
03-09-2015, 07:41 PM
Cavs without LeBron: 2-9
Cavs with LeBron: 38-16

da ThRONe
03-09-2015, 07:45 PM
Yes. IMO.

This. My Pelicans has been as good with Davis as we have been without him. His numbers are so high because the team creates a lot of easy basket for him. Look at his percentage of assisted basket. I know he had the highest percentage by a decent amount at some point this season and if he isn't at the top of that list he's near the top.

IKnowHoops
03-10-2015, 12:27 AM
His shooting is going to make Durant and Westbrook that much harder to guard in the playoffs.

See: Bosh, Chris

It will also lower the teams overall 3 pt percentage, rebounding, and second chance points. I'm betting the minuses outweigh the pluses.

IKnowHoops
03-10-2015, 12:30 AM
I think it's fair to say the MVP should and will come down to Curry and Harden. James lost this one already. KD, if not injured, would most likely be the MVP again. LeBron's MVP years are over tbh.

I think a lot of it had to do with a new team, and them being a science project for the first half of the season, and Bron approaching the games as such.

tredigs
03-10-2015, 12:35 AM
Another at the office with 36/6/5 + 4 stls on 58% with 7 threes for the MVP in Phoenix. Outscored their team 15-12 in the 8 minutes he played in the 4th. He's getting really, really good. Can't believe he's flirting with a 50/40/90 while shooting 8+ threes a night.