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ImOnFire12
02-22-2015, 06:25 PM
I was reading one of the kg threads and there was a discussion of who's the top 3 PF. Who's your top 3? I'd rank Duncan as the greatest with Dirk 2nd and KG 3rd.

Jumba
02-22-2015, 06:29 PM
Malone

ImOnFire12
02-22-2015, 06:40 PM
Malone had a great supporting cast and the greatest PG to play the game but couldn't win a thing.

bbcmillionaire
02-22-2015, 06:43 PM
Duncan
Kg
Dirk
It's crazy how all of their primes were in the same era. I'm glad I got to witness this

tredigs
02-22-2015, 06:44 PM
Duncan/Barkley/KG for me.

Thinking on it more, that top 5 rounding out with Dirk/Malone really is a tough call.

Ironman5219
02-22-2015, 06:48 PM
Duncan, Malone, Dirk

Ironman5219
02-22-2015, 06:49 PM
Malone had a great supporting cast and the greatest PG to play the game but couldn't win a thing. yeah and if it wasn't for that Jordan guy he would have 2 rings

FraziersKnicks
02-22-2015, 06:50 PM
Duncan/Barkley/KG for me.

Thinking on it more, that top 5 rounding out with Dirk/Malone really is a tough call.

This exact order for me:

Duncan
Barkley
KG
Dirk
Malone

KnicksorBust
02-22-2015, 07:06 PM
Duncan/Malone/Barkley

It is amazinghow underrated Karl Malone has become over the years.

andy2518
02-22-2015, 07:19 PM
Duncan Barkley Malone. Malone is very underrated.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 07:22 PM
Duncan/Barkley/KG for me.

Thinking on it more, that top 5 rounding out with Dirk/Malone really is a tough call.

my exact order as well.

tredigs
02-22-2015, 07:24 PM
Malone was the picture of high level consistency, but I never thought he was as good as Barkley. And actually I felt that Stockton was the teams most important player more often than not.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 07:24 PM
Duncan/Malone/Barkley

It is amazinghow underrated Karl Malone has become over the years.

his playoff play just doesn't let him catch Barkley or KG for me.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 07:29 PM
Malone was the picture of high level consistency, but I never thought he was as good as Barkley. And actually I felt that Stockton was the teams most important player more often than not.

agreed. When you factor in Barkley's totally dominant play come playoff time, and KG's defensive impact, they are both above Malone to me. I even have Dirk just a bump above Karl.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 07:30 PM
Malone had a great supporting cast and the greatest PG to play the game but couldn't win a thing.

MJ stopped a few all timers from getting a ring.

KnicksorBust
02-22-2015, 07:35 PM
Duncan/Malone/Barkley

It is amazinghow underrated Karl Malone has become over the years.

his playoff play just doesn't let him catch Barkley or KG for me.

It is interesting that you would give Barkley the edge over someone for playoff play. If anything that qualification would make me want to put Dirk in my top 3.

andy2518
02-22-2015, 07:38 PM
MJ stopped a few all timers from getting a ring.

Yep.

YAALREADYKNO
02-22-2015, 08:01 PM
Duncan
Dirk
KG

YAALREADYKNO
02-22-2015, 08:02 PM
his playoff play just doesn't let him catch Barkley or KG for me.

but yet Malone>dirk because of playoff play when Dirk is clearly a better playoff/clutch performer than KG and just a bit ahead of barkley in that category?

Tony_Starks
02-22-2015, 08:14 PM
Duncan, Barkley, Kevin McHale....

PowerHouse
02-22-2015, 08:26 PM
1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Pettit


4. KG
5. Barkley

Avenged
02-22-2015, 08:26 PM
The fact that it's actually an argument on whether KG, Barkley, Malone, or Dirk make the top 3 just says how deep the position is.

tredigs
02-22-2015, 08:29 PM
^Was wondering who would say Pettit first. I won't argue that; but it's a tough sell to argue the 50's/60's bigs here who aren't Russell/Wilt. **** even then people have trouble.

IKnowHoops
02-22-2015, 08:40 PM
Tim
KG
Barkley/Malone
Dirk

Pierzynski4Prez
02-22-2015, 08:45 PM
After Duncan, any of Barkley, KG, Dirk, and Malone all have a strong case to be the last 2 spots in the top 3. Don't think there is really any right or wrong combination.

GodsSon
02-22-2015, 08:45 PM
I'll go with...

1) Duncan
2) Malone (2 MVP's and 2nd in all time points)

3(a) KG
3(b) Dirk

5) Barkley

Pierzynski4Prez
02-22-2015, 08:46 PM
Malone's playoff numbers do take a dive when compared to his regular season numbers.

Avenged
02-22-2015, 08:47 PM
Does Dirk even get consideration without his championship for top 3?

YAALREADYKNO
02-22-2015, 08:50 PM
Does Dirk even get consideration without his championship for top 3?

but the fact that he has a championship is what makes him great lol something you cant say about Malone or barkley. Dirk also has the finals mvp over kg and he's the better playoff performer out of those 4

Ty22Mitchell
02-22-2015, 08:52 PM
Tim
Kg
Malone

I know the stats are pretty favorable to Dirk, but I've never been all that impressed with him. Imo he's one of those guys whose legacy has been inflated because of a ring. For the exception of 1 or 2 seasons I never felt like he was bona fide great.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 08:58 PM
It is interesting that you would give Barkley the edge over someone for playoff play. If anything that qualification would make me want to put Dirk in my top 3.

it's why Dirk is ahead of Malone as well. But I can't ignore that KG was just so superior as a 2-way player over Dirk. It does enough for me, to make up for his gap of offensive difference. KG also needs to be understood that his roster in his peak years, was just no good, outside one year, and Sam's hip just **** out on him.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 09:00 PM
but yet Malone>dirk because of playoff play when Dirk is clearly a better playoff/clutch performer than KG and just a bit ahead of barkley in that category?

we have spoken about this. KG's overall impact (regular season and playoffs), when you measure he is one of the best defensive players in history, gives him the nod over Dirk to me.

IKnowHoops
02-22-2015, 09:02 PM
I think Malone is so underrated. I remember during the 90's, there was no doubt Malone was the best in the game to me for PF. Barkley was not as dominant as him. He was bigger and stronger than everyone.

D-Leethal
02-22-2015, 09:02 PM
KG's defense needs to get him on more of these lists. Best defender I've ever seen.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 09:03 PM
but the fact that he has a championship is what makes him great lol something you cant say about Malone or barkley. Dirk also has the finals mvp over kg and he's the better playoff performer out of those 4

context needs to be taken. Dirk wasn't running into Jordan in the finals. He ran into a gassed out, little ***** LeBron for his.

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 09:04 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin McHale
.......
.......
.......
.......
486. Kris Humphries
.......
.......
.......
.......
2,509. Karl Malone

**** Karl Malone.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 09:06 PM
KG's defense needs to get him on more of these lists. Best defender I've ever seen.

that is exactly why I put him 3rd, ahead of Dirk, then Malone. I get that his offensive production dropped come playoff time, but his defense, and regular season play, need to put him top 3.

Hawkeye15
02-22-2015, 09:08 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin McHale
.......
.......
.......
.......
486. Kris Humphries
.......
.......
.......
.......
2,509. Karl Malone

**** Karl Malone.

I seriously never got the Utah hate from Houston fans, even when I was living there 19 years.

When did they ever win ****? I have had it explained to me haha, it just doesn't make sense to me personally. All my Houston friends HATED anything about the Utah Jazz

MagicBucsSox
02-22-2015, 10:05 PM
Mchale, Duncan, KG

leprechaun5
02-22-2015, 10:20 PM
1.Duncan
2.KG
3.Dirk

FlashBolt
02-22-2015, 11:11 PM
I gotta go with Duncan, KG, and Dirk.

InRoseWeTrust
02-22-2015, 11:13 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin McHale
.......
.......
.......
.......
486. Kris Humphries
.......
.......
.......
.......
2,509. Karl Malone

**** Karl Malone.

:laugh:

This one got me good. Well done.

Chronz
02-23-2015, 12:08 AM
Td. Chucky. Then i dunno. Petit kg Dirk can all stake claim

Jeffy25
02-23-2015, 12:23 AM
Malone had a great supporting cast and the greatest PG to play the game but couldn't win a thing.

Maybe because his best chances were met against Jordan?

I don't fault him for not winning a chip.


1. Malone
2. Duncan
3. Dirk, KG, and Barkley split 3-5

FlashBolt
02-23-2015, 12:26 AM
Maybe because his best chances were met against Jordan?

I don't fault him for not winning a chip.


1. Malone
2. Duncan
3. Dirk, KG, and Barkley split 3-5

You can't be serious with Malone over Duncan. Duncan is like the Jordan of PF. There is no discussion to be had on who's the best PF.

Jeffy25
02-23-2015, 12:31 AM
You can't be serious with Malone over Duncan. Duncan is like the Jordan of PF. There is no discussion to be had on who's the best PF.

Well the 10,000 extra minutes helps push him up there.

Malone was the better shooter .577 vs .551 TS%
Similar PER, 23.9 vs 24.5
WS gives Malone the edge, but that's because of the extra minutes - 234.6 vs 197.3, but Malone and Duncan are close in WS per 48 (.205 vs .210, and if you assume Duncan will play another year after this one, they will end up closer.


The only real argument I see for Duncan is that he has the five chips with several different supporting players. I don't see any reason to say Duncan is a slam dunk as number one. Malone had a fantastic career.

Sadds The Gr8
02-23-2015, 12:35 AM
Duncan/Barkley/KG for me.

Thinking on it more, that top 5 rounding out with Dirk/Malone really is a tough call.
This

FlashBolt
02-23-2015, 12:39 AM
Well the 10,000 extra minutes helps push him up there.

Malone was the better shooter .577 vs .551 TS%
Similar PER, 23.9 vs 24.5
WS gives Malone the edge, but that's because of the extra minutes - 234.6 vs 197.3, but Malone and Duncan are close in WS per 48 (.205 vs .210, and if you assume Duncan will play another year after this one, they will end up closer.


The only real argument I see for Duncan is that he has the five chips with several different supporting players. I don't see any reason to say Duncan is a slam dunk as number one. Malone had a fantastic career.

Because Duncan wasn't the better defender? Has rings under his belt? Has made it to the playoffs every season and has had 50+ wins in each season (except lockout). Malone had a great career but he was a mediocre defender and in the playoffs, he seems to start playing inferior to his regular season game. Part of the reason they lost to the Bulls was the fact that he got shut down many times. Duncan rarely gets shut down. 10,000 minutes. Meh, are we really going to give in to his longevity? No doubt, he's built like a machine but I'm not sure anyone would say he's better than MJ because of his extra minutes.

jerellh528
02-23-2015, 12:52 AM
Duncan
Malone
Barkley/kg <---- this one was tough for me between the two
Dirk

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 01:01 AM
context needs to be taken. Dirk wasn't running into Jordan in the finals. He ran into a gassed out, little ***** LeBron for his.

Lol Dirk still has as many nba finals appearances as Malone has with one championship. Malone played with another HOFer pretty much his whole career and only got to 2 finals. As for kg, he's the most talented PF to play in the NBA but you can't ignore the fact that his performance dropped when the playoffs came around. I don't understand how you can criticize malone's playoff performances but give kg a pass because of what he did in the regular season lol

Hawkeye15
02-23-2015, 01:36 AM
Lol Dirk still has as many nba finals appearances as Malone has with one championship. Malone played with another HOFer pretty much his whole career and only got to 2 finals. As for kg, he's the most talented PF to play in the NBA but you can't ignore the fact that his performance dropped when the playoffs came around. I don't understand how you can criticize malone's playoff performances but give kg a pass because of what he did in the regular season lol

lol all you want. KG was one of the greatest defenders in history. It matters.

Phantom Dreamer
02-23-2015, 01:55 AM
Duncan's a center.

warrior63
02-23-2015, 01:57 AM
Duncan, Malone, and Barkley.

lakerfan85
02-23-2015, 02:53 AM
Duncan, Barkley, and Malone..

LA_Raiders
02-23-2015, 02:54 AM
Lol, either this forum is full if youngster or most have short term memory.

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley

Irk can't play D so he should be out of the top 3

numba1CHANGsta
02-23-2015, 03:06 AM
Duncan/Dirk/KG combine for 7 NBA championships

Malone/Barkley combine for 0 championships

FlashBolt
02-23-2015, 03:32 AM
Lol, either this forum is full if youngster or most have short term memory.

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley

Irk can't play D so he should be out of the top 3

Barkley/Malone were amazing defenders? LOL.

*Silver&Black*
02-23-2015, 07:01 AM
This exact order for me:

Duncan
Barkley
KG
Dirk
Malone

This.

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 09:07 AM
lol all you want. KG was one of the greatest defenders in history. It matters.

Defense does matter but what makes a superstar great is his ability to elevate his game when the postseason comes around and Dirk clearly beats Kg in that.

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 09:09 AM
Lol, either this forum is full if youngster or most have short term memory.

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley

Irk can't play D so he should be out of the top 3

Yet he still led his team to a championship with one of the greatest playoff runs in NBA history lmao

kdspurman
02-23-2015, 10:20 AM
Well the 10,000 extra minutes helps push him up there.

Malone was the better shooter .577 vs .551 TS%
Similar PER, 23.9 vs 24.5
WS gives Malone the edge, but that's because of the extra minutes - 234.6 vs 197.3, but Malone and Duncan are close in WS per 48 (.205 vs .210, and if you assume Duncan will play another year after this one, they will end up closer.


The only real argument I see for Duncan is that he has the five chips with several different supporting players. I don't see any reason to say Duncan is a slam dunk as number one. Malone had a fantastic career.

How about playoff performances? and defense?

valade16
02-23-2015, 11:00 AM
I think the fact that the only 5 names I see being mentioned are Duncan, KG, Barkley, Dirk and Malone shows they are unquestionably the top 5.

Given the volume of opinions on specific order I don't think we're going to narrow it down with any certainty beyond that.

D-Leethal
02-23-2015, 11:04 AM
Crazy how little people value defense here. It doesn't even make its way into these discussions 75% of the time. I can't believe how many posters didn't even mention the word in their analyses.

Goose17
02-23-2015, 12:49 PM
No love for Elvin Hayes or Bob Pettit?

I really try not to rank guys in an all time list, I prefer ranking them for their era. At the very least I try not to rank guys that I never saw play, Youtube videos and archived games on NBATV only tell part of the story.

But with that said, I'll make one last exception.

1. Tim Duncan.
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley?

valade16
02-23-2015, 12:55 PM
Crazy how little people value defense here. It doesn't even make its way into these discussions 75% of the time. I can't believe how many posters didn't even mention the word in their analyses.

In terms of defense it'd be Duncan, KG, Malone, Barkley/Dirk.

Malone was not a bad defender. He made like 3-4 all-defensive teams in his day and was nowhere near as bad as Barkley/Dirk on that end.

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 01:02 PM
Crazy how little people value defense here. It doesn't even make its way into these discussions 75% of the time. I can't believe how many posters didn't even mention the word in their analyses.

So we should value defense over everything else

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 01:04 PM
In terms of defense it'd be Duncan, KG, Malone, Barkley/Dirk.

Malone was not a bad defender. He made like 3-4 all-defensive teams in his day and was nowhere near as bad as Barkley/Dirk on that end.

Kg>duncan defensively

Longhornfan1234
02-23-2015, 01:13 PM
Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk


AD is closing in the top 5.

Chronz
02-23-2015, 02:06 PM
peak vs longevity/durability?

Peak Duncan all day every day

His longevity is pretty strong but loses some luster with the massaged minutes.

leprechaun5
02-23-2015, 02:37 PM
peak vs longevity/durability?

Peak Duncan all day every day

His longevity is pretty strong but loses some luster with the massaged minutes.

KG's peak>Everybody's else. He beats Barkley and Dirk with D. Malone doesn't belong in conversation for top 3 IMO.

R. Johnson#3
02-23-2015, 02:52 PM
Duncan/Malone/Barkley

It is amazinghow underrated Karl Malone has become over the years.

My guess is that a lot of the people voting never actually watched the mail man play and are just looking at the fact that he has no rings.

1. Duncan/Malone
2. Duncan/Malone
3. Chuck

R. Johnson#3
02-23-2015, 02:54 PM
In terms of defense it'd be Duncan, KG, Malone, Barkley/Dirk.

Malone was not a bad defender. He made like 3-4 all-defensive teams in his day and was nowhere near as bad as Barkley/Dirk on that end.

Malone was dirty on defense. He played a dirty and intimidating type of defense.

D-Leethal
02-23-2015, 03:25 PM
So we should value defense over everything else

I don't recall saying that, did I?

When you have a guy like KG who is one of the GOAT defenders and you have guys like Barkley and Dirk who were big time minus defenders, it should be mentioned considering their offensive games were not light years apart like the defense is.

Defense is half the game, right?

Goose17
02-23-2015, 04:25 PM
I really feel like people overrate Garnett.

Thumper 88
02-23-2015, 04:34 PM
Ducan
Malone
Dirk
KG
Barkley

I'll move Dirk up a spot if he gets another ring or top 5 all time points

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 04:38 PM
I don't recall saying that, did I?

When you have a guy like KG who is one of the GOAT defenders and you have guys like Barkley and Dirk who were big time minus defenders, it should be mentioned considering their offensive games were not light years apart like the defense is.

Defense is half the game, right?

Sure it is and it is important but isn't a great player judged off his playoff performances also? Something Dirk has done better than kg and last time I checked the playoffs are so much more important to a players legacy than the regular season.

PowerHouse
02-23-2015, 04:47 PM
I think the fact that the only 5 names I see being mentioned are Duncan, KG, Barkley, Dirk and Malone shows they are unquestionably the top 5.

Given the volume of opinions on specific order I don't think we're going to narrow it down with any certainty beyond that.


No love for Elvin Hayes or Bob Pettit?



A couple of us did mention Pettit and he very much deserves consideration in the list.

Goose17
02-23-2015, 05:36 PM
Ducan
Malone
Dirk
KG
Barkley

I'll move Dirk up a spot if he gets another ring or top 5 all time points

Interesting. I don't like the "rings" argument because honestly I see that as a reflection of a great team not a great individual. But who am I to judge? I am intrigued as to why Dirk needs to win a chip to be 2nd but Malone doesn't? What was the reasoning for that?

mightybosstone
02-23-2015, 06:44 PM
Although I don't agree with it, I can at least understand why someone would vote Malone over Barkley, Dirk or KG. Those guys are all around the same level of talent and statistical production in my book. And you could make a strong case for any of the four as the second best PF of all time. What I don't understand, and will never understand, is how anyone can justify Malone over Duncan. Advanced stats? Duncan. Defense? Duncan. Accolades? Duncan. Postseason stats? Duncan. Rings? Duncan.

I'll give Malone an edge as a scorer and a slight edge in longevity. But that's about it. Duncan is/was absolutely a superior basketball player and when you factor in his postseason prowess, it's not even a debate. Seriously, what is the argument for Malone over Duncan?

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 06:54 PM
Interesting. I don't like the "rings" argument because honestly I see that as a reflection of a great team not a great individual. But who am I to judge? I am intrigued as to why Dirk needs to win a chip to be 2nd but Malone doesn't? What was the reasoning for that?

I was about to ask the same thing

mightybosstone
02-23-2015, 07:05 PM
Well the 10,000 extra minutes helps push him up there.

Malone was the better shooter .577 vs .551 TS%
Similar PER, 23.9 vs 24.5
WS gives Malone the edge, but that's because of the extra minutes - 234.6 vs 197.3, but Malone and Duncan are close in WS per 48 (.205 vs .210, and if you assume Duncan will play another year after this one, they will end up closer.


The only real argument I see for Duncan is that he has the five chips with several different supporting players. I don't see any reason to say Duncan is a slam dunk as number one. Malone had a fantastic career.

Oh, never mind. I just saw this super weak argument from Jeffy. For shame, sir. You're better than this...
Let's suppose for a second that their advanced numbers are identical, which for all intents and purposes, they might as well be. Hell, I'll even throw out the massive defensive advantage Duncan has, making 14 All-Defensive teams compared to only four for Malone.

And let's just throw out rings, despite how significant of an edge that should be, considering Duncan was probably the best player on all five of those championship teams and had one of the all-time "do it yourself" championship seasons in 03.

If you want to know why Duncan absolutely crushes Malone in every fathomable way, look at postseason stats. Malone played in 193 games and Duncan played in 234, so both guys have a solid sample size to choose from. Duncan posted a career .195 WS/48 and 24.6 PER in the postseason with a 54.8% TS% on 21/12/3/2/1 averages (arguably better than his regular season numbers). He's 7th in career postseason PER, 2nd in career postseason WS and 8th in career postseason WS/48.

By comparison, Malone's numbers are pedestrian at best. He shot 5+% worse from the floor in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. His amazing regular season advanced stats drop from a 23.9 PER, 57.7% TS% and a .205 WS/48 to a 21.1 PER, 52.6% TS% and a .140 WS/48. He's 80th in career WS/48 and 32nd in career PER in the postseason. In the 97 Finals, Maloned posted a dreadful 48.5% TS%.

Seriously, you could throw everything else out the window, but when I look at those numbers, it takes me about a microsecond to realize that Duncan has had the better career.

alexander_37
02-23-2015, 07:09 PM
Malone has to be #2 as much as I would like to agree with MBT.and put him at #2509. He played with an unmatched physical edge and is an absolutely incredible scorer and force in the post. Barkley probably rounds out my top 3 with KG just missing out on #4.

It's funny how out of the top 5 PF of all time I really dislike all of them except Duncan.

Tony_Starks
02-23-2015, 07:49 PM
Although it isn't popular because of his limited offense Rodman should actually be in this conversation. Huge part of the bad boys and 2nd 3peat Bulls. Plus he was the one giving those Barkley's, Malone's, McHales of the world fits on defense. You can dominate a game defensively....

Goose17
02-23-2015, 07:53 PM
I really feel like Garnett is overrated. Then again I never liked him much.

Chronz
02-23-2015, 07:57 PM
Cept for playoffs
Where one raised his game, the other fell off

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 08:07 PM
Cept for playoffs
Where one raised his game, the other fell off

Who would that be?

leprechaun5
02-23-2015, 08:37 PM
I really feel like Garnett is overrated. Then again I never liked him much.

You already said that 2 or 3 times. No, KG isn't overrated. He has the best peak from this list and is probably the best defender on this list (maybe a tie with Duncan even though KG is better IMO). Duncan is the best ever but KG has to be 2nd.

YAALREADYKNO
02-23-2015, 08:43 PM
You already said that 2 or 3 times. No, KG isn't overrated. He has the best peak from this list and is probably the best defender on this list (maybe a tie with Duncan even though KG is better IMO). Duncan is the best ever but KG has to be 2nd.

3rd

basch152
02-23-2015, 10:27 PM
If you are looking at the primes of players, I think CWebb is often underrated in these discussions.

Dude was an absolute stud before injuries. It's hard to find someone that was athletic, could handle the ball, had great court vision and passing abilities, could score at will, and was also a great defender like Cwebb was.

As for Malone, I really don't want to hear anything about him not winning a championship. You can make a STRONG argument that the #1 and #2 players of all time won 8 straight championships in the 90s, a lot of players were left out of winning championships because of those two.

-The Mekka-
02-23-2015, 10:44 PM
Duncan
KG
Malone
Dirk

-The Mekka-
02-23-2015, 10:45 PM
If you are looking at the primes of players, I think CWebb is often underrated in these discussions.

Dude was an absolute stud before injuries. It's hard to find someone that was athletic, could handle the ball, had great court vision and passing abilities, could score at will, and was also a great defender like Cwebb was.

As for Malone, I really don't want to hear anything about him not winning a championship. You can make a STRONG argument that the #1 and #2 players of all time won 8 straight championships in the 90s, a lot of players were left out of winning championships because of those two.

Yup. But due to the injuries I couldn't put him up there

Tony_Starks
02-23-2015, 11:09 PM
If you are looking at the primes of players, I think CWebb is often underrated in these discussions.

Dude was an absolute stud before injuries. It's hard to find someone that was athletic, could handle the ball, had great court vision and passing abilities, could score at will, and was also a great defender like Cwebb was.

As for Malone, I really don't want to hear anything about him not winning a championship. You can make a STRONG argument that the #1 and #2 players of all time won 8 straight championships in the 90s, a lot of players were left out of winning championships because of those two.

Its weird to me how people pick and choose when they prefer longevity vs peak. Like with players they don't particularly like they downplay longevity, then with someone like C Webb who could do absolutely everything at peak he just gets left out of the conversation....

Thumper 88
02-23-2015, 11:50 PM
Interesting. I don't like the "rings" argument because honestly I see that as a reflection of a great team not a great individual. But who am I to judge? I am intrigued as to why Dirk needs to win a chip to be 2nd but Malone doesn't? What was the reasoning for that?


I was about to ask the same thing

I have him over Dirk at the moment because of his longevity, scoring and just being so good for so damn long.

Like I said before if Dirk cracks the top 5 in scoring which he will if he stays healthy giving him the longevity argument or wins another ring which would even cement him more as an all time champion

mightybosstone
02-23-2015, 11:58 PM
Malone has to be #2 as much as I would like to agree with MBT.and put him at #2509. He played with an unmatched physical edge and is an absolutely incredible scorer and force in the post. Barkley probably rounds out my top 3 with KG just missing out on #4.

It's funny how out of the top 5 PF of all time I really dislike all of them except Duncan.

Meh. In all seriousness, I would rank Barkley, Garnett and Dirk all ahead of Malone. Barkley and Dirk's numbers are every bit as impressive as Malone and both guy's postseason numbers absolutely dwarf Malone's. And KG was not postseason stud, but his overall numbers are damn good, his postseason run in 07-08 was damn good and he was one of the greatest defensive 4s in NBA history.

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 12:02 AM
Its weird to me how people pick and choose when they prefer longevity vs peak. Like with players they don't particularly like they downplay longevity, then with someone like C Webb who could do absolutely everything at peak he just gets left out of the conversation....

If we were to have a top 10 PF of all-time discussion, Webber's name would certainly get brought up. But even at his peak, he wasn't at the same level as the five or six guys whose names are being thrown around in this thread. Offensively, he wasn't as good as Malone, Barkley or Dirk and defensively, he wasn't remotely as good as Garnett, Duncan or McHale.

YAALREADYKNO
02-24-2015, 12:06 AM
I have him over Dirk at the moment because of his longevity, scoring and just being so good for so damn long.

Like I said before if Dirk cracks the top 5 in scoring which he will if he stays healthy giving him the longevity argument or wins another ring which would even cement him more as an all time champion

Don't really get why another championship would put dirk over the top when he should be over Malone already especially since Malone has 0 rings to begin with. Not to mention Dirk is the better playoff performer and being 7th right now on the all time scoring list isn't bad either.

Thumper 88
02-24-2015, 12:11 AM
Don't really get why another championship would put dirk over the top when he should be over Malone already especially since Malone has 0 rings to begin with. Not to mention Dirk is the better playoff performer and being 7th right now on the all time scoring list isn't bad either.

Dirk is also my favorite player but I grew up watching Malone & Barkley and Malone never slowed down like Dirk has atm.

To each their own though

flea
02-24-2015, 12:51 AM
You already said that 2 or 3 times. No, KG isn't overrated. He has the best peak from this list and is probably the best defender on this list (maybe a tie with Duncan even though KG is better IMO). Duncan is the best ever but KG has to be 2nd.

Best peak? No way. Duncan has 12 seasons over 10 WS to KG's 9. From 98/99 to 09/10 Duncan beats him .222 to .209 in WS/48. Best 5 year peak is basically knotted up (.234 WS/48 from 99/00 to 03/04 for Duncan and .236 WS/48 from 01/02 to 05/06 for KG).

And this is all just looking at regular season - Duncan takes a dump on KG, and every other player mentioned, when it comes to postseason performance. In fact, KG only broke .20 WS/48 once in the postseason for his career - and that was in 01 when his team got swept in the first round. Duncan has done it 6 times, including 4 of his 5 rings (in 05 he had a .191 WS/48, the slacker). Every time Duncan accomplished that it was in more than 10 postseason games, except once in 02.

One would be remiss not to mention one of the 2 or 3 best individual postseasons that Duncan put up as well, in 03. During that run he mowed through the 03 Lakers with a 28/11.8/4.8 with 1.3 blocks and only 2.2 TO on 53%. KG faced the Lakers in the next postseason (his MVP year) and posted 23.7/13.5/4.5 with 1.2 blocks and 3.7 TO on 46%. KG had a nice run in 08, but it's no where near as impressive really any of Duncan's championship runs (maybe 05).

Defensively? There is no question who is better. One man is still probably the most valuable defensive big man in the league, the other is doing his farewell tour by moving from one lottery team to another. KG was more athletic in his prime, but Duncan has never needed outrageous athleticism anyway. I don't think anyone's been better in the zone defense era for any period of time than Duncan. Yes KG and Wallace have had nice seasons, and Shaq was immovable, but none were as important to his team's defense as Duncan - nor as consistently great.

goingfor28
02-24-2015, 01:00 AM
Byron Mullens

rhino17
02-24-2015, 01:35 AM
1) Duncan
2) Dirk (winning a ring the man and probably the only other player besides Hakeem to win a ring without a #2 superstar put him above everyone else in my book, he accomplished things KG, Barkley, Malone, etc never did)
3) Barkley

I refuse to acknowledge Malone for being a scumbag both on an off the court

M.Bibby2.0
02-24-2015, 01:45 AM
This is probably a moot point, but in many different scenarios Duncan would've spent his career as a center, and someone like Hakeem could have easily played the 4 in Duncan's situation. My point is I think of Duncan's play style (namely post-play) and it resembles that of a traditional center.

KG, Malone, Dirk, Charles seem more characteristic of PF's (driving, P&R, mid-range games, less post up hooks).

Irrelevant point, just an observation.

Tony_Starks
02-24-2015, 02:10 AM
Its weird to me how people pick and choose when they prefer longevity vs peak. Like with players they don't particularly like they downplay longevity, then with someone like C Webb who could do absolutely everything at peak he just gets left out of the conversation....

If we were to have a top 10 PF of all-time discussion, Webber's name would certainly get brought up. But even at his peak, he wasn't at the same level as the five or six guys whose names are being thrown around in this thread. Offensively, he wasn't as good as Malone, Barkley or Dirk and defensively, he wasn't remotely as good as Garnett, Duncan or McHale.

Not so sure about that. Defensively I'll give you that, KG Timmy and McHale were elite. But offensively I take him over the 3 you mentioned. Better range and mobility than Barkley and Malone, better post game than Dirk, and better passer than all the bigs you listed. In fact one of the best passing bigs ever.

He's definitely top 5ish for me. Had he not ran into that Laker buzzsaw he'd definitely have at least one ring under his belt....

FraziersKnicks
02-24-2015, 08:07 AM
Not so sure about that. Defensively I'll give you that, KG Timmy and McHale were elite. But offensively I take him over the 3 you mentioned. Better range and mobility than Barkley and Malone, better post game than Dirk, and better passer than all the bigs you listed. In fact one of the best passing bigs ever.

He's definitely top 5ish for me. Had he not ran into that Laker buzzsaw he'd definitely have at least one ring under his belt....

Dick Bavetta, Bob Delaney and Tom Bernhardt?

leprechaun5
02-24-2015, 08:50 AM
Best peak? No way. Duncan has 12 seasons over 10 WS to KG's 9. From 98/99 to 09/10 Duncan beats him .222 to .209 in WS/48. Best 5 year peak is basically knotted up (.234 WS/48 from 99/00 to 03/04 for Duncan and .236 WS/48 from 01/02 to 05/06 for KG).

And this is all just looking at regular season - Duncan takes a dump on KG, and every other player mentioned, when it comes to postseason performance. In fact, KG only broke .20 WS/48 once in the postseason for his career - and that was in 01 when his team got swept in the first round. Duncan has done it 6 times, including 4 of his 5 rings (in 05 he had a .191 WS/48, the slacker). Every time Duncan accomplished that it was in more than 10 postseason games, except once in 02.

One would be remiss not to mention one of the 2 or 3 best individual postseasons that Duncan put up as well, in 03. During that run he mowed through the 03 Lakers with a 28/11.8/4.8 with 1.3 blocks and only 2.2 TO on 53%. KG faced the Lakers in the next postseason (his MVP year) and posted 23.7/13.5/4.5 with 1.2 blocks and 3.7 TO on 46%. KG had a nice run in 08, but it's no where near as impressive really any of Duncan's championship runs (maybe 05).

Defensively? There is no question who is better. One man is still probably the most valuable defensive big man in the league, the other is doing his farewell tour by moving from one lottery team to another. KG was more athletic in his prime, but Duncan has never needed outrageous athleticism anyway. I don't think anyone's been better in the zone defense era for any period of time than Duncan. Yes KG and Wallace have had nice seasons, and Shaq was immovable, but none were as important to his team's defense as Duncan - nor as consistently great.

You do realize that WS are affected by team play?! Duncan had the better team for 80% of his career and he had Pop his entire career. What did KG have? A 03/04 solid basketball team that probably would have won the championship if Cassell didn't get injured (also Troy Hudson the reserve PG was injured to) and KG played some minutes as a PG in WCF. His 2008 run doesn't get enough credit as it should, he totally changed the Celtics (best turnaround in NBA history), i know it wasn't only him but he was the main reason. He got injured in 2009 while the team had by far the best record in the league and was a favorite to repeat. I'm talking about the peak and the guy who dominated most IMO was KG and that didn't translate into winning a championship or even being the best regular season team mostly because the lack of talent around him and a ****** franchise.

As far as postseason goes is very much easier to defend a guy with no help around him. He was double and triple teamed almost every single night. And I'm not saying KG's career is better than Duncan's. TD is the best PF ever and no one should argue that but i believe KG in his peak was a better player.

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 10:26 AM
Not so sure about that. Defensively I'll give you that, KG Timmy and McHale were elite. But offensively I take him over the 3 you mentioned. Better range and mobility than Barkley and Malone, better post game than Dirk, and better passer than all the bigs you listed. In fact one of the best passing bigs ever.

He's definitely top 5ish for me. Had he not ran into that Laker buzzsaw he'd definitely have at least one ring under his belt....
To each his own, I suppose, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a ton of analysts or athletes who would rank Webber ahead of those guys. And he may have had a more varied or skilled offensive game than some of those guys, but variation and skill doesn't equate to success or production. I would definitely take Barkley, Dirk and Malone offensively over Webber. They were more productive and far, far more efficient. Webber had a career 51.3% TS%. That's mediocre by guard standards and well below average for a big man in his era.

YAALREADYKNO
02-24-2015, 10:32 AM
1) Duncan
2) Dirk (winning a ring the man and probably the only other player besides Hakeem to win a ring without a #2 superstar put him above everyone else in my book, he accomplished things KG, Barkley, Malone, etc never did)
3) Barkley

I refuse to acknowledge Malone for being a scumbag both on an off the court

Agreed on Dirk. Seems like alot of people wanna down play Dirks championship run

ManningToTyree
02-24-2015, 10:58 AM
Duncan
KG
Malone

ewing
02-24-2015, 12:41 PM
Why don't you just look up who was the most efficient?

BGeer091
02-24-2015, 12:52 PM
For me it's Duncan number 1. Hands down.

2 Malone.
3 Barkley

I don't fault them for not having rings. Quite frankly if there isn't a Jordan. Malone has 2 rings Barkley has 1.

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 01:02 PM
Why don't you just look up who was the most efficient?

That wouldn't really give you the full story would it? Barkley probably leads all PF in most career efficiency stats with Pettit not too far behind him. But I don't think you'll find many people willing to rank Barkley ahead of Duncan. Would you?

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 03:31 PM
"if it wasn't for Jordan." Seriously? Malone underachieved in those playoffs and Barkley only made it to the Finals once... Dirk has led his team to the Finals twice while revolutionizing the game. KG is a much better defender and in his absolute prime, was better than Duncan.

Goose17
02-24-2015, 03:50 PM
I wonder what Barkley would say if people were arguing for him as a top 3 PF all time by using analytics?

SPURSFAN1
02-24-2015, 04:13 PM
"if it wasn't for Jordan." Seriously? Malone underachieved in those playoffs and Barkley only made it to the Finals once... Dirk has led his team to the Finals twice while revolutionizing the game. KG is a much better defender and in his absolute prime, was better than Duncan.

So ****ing fail.

YAALREADYKNO
02-24-2015, 04:14 PM
For me it's Duncan number 1. Hands down.

2 Malone.
3 Barkley

I don't fault them for not having rings. Quite frankly if there isn't a Jordan. Malone has 2 rings Barkley has 1.

Dirk carried his team to two finals and ultimately won a championship. That elevates him ahead of barkley and Malone. Dirk is also a better playoff performer than kg and I know that kg is a better defender than dirk is but to me that shouldn't really effect a guy who lead his team to a championship and usually comes up bigger in the playoffs.

SPURSFAN1
02-24-2015, 04:17 PM
2003 Duncan is a top 3 best performance ever. Prime KG doesn't come close to that high.

PowerHouse
02-24-2015, 05:09 PM
That wouldn't really give you the full story would it? Barkley probably leads all PF in most career efficiency stats with Pettit not too far behind him. But I don't think you'll find many people willing to rank Barkley ahead of Duncan. Would you?

Pettit is actually top of the pack in career PER (the only PF in the top 10 for career PER). Just not FG% or TS% but thats because of the era Pettit played in. In the 50s/early 60s it was all about run and gun, jacking up shots at the rim without hardly any set plays being called. The only guys who had great FG% in those days were the dominant centers.

CELTICS4LYFE
02-24-2015, 05:18 PM
Duncan KG Dirk

KnicksorBust
02-24-2015, 07:01 PM
What a joke. 25ppg/10rpg for 20 seasons and people want to dog on Malone. Yet guys like KG get a pass bc they woke up one morning with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen as their teammates. And Dirk's one post-season run (with a red hot Jason Terry) is better than Malone's decade of regular seasons of superior play.

Bruno
02-24-2015, 07:52 PM
i might be displaying recency bias but I think that Duncan, KG and Dirk surpassed Malone and Barkley. Duncan and KG for sure, but I understand the debate with Dirk.

flea
02-24-2015, 08:22 PM
I think I usually go Duncan, KG, Barkley, Malone, Dirk. I've been watching some of the '92-'93 Suns lately though and I'm not sure Barkley isn't #2. He was more of a handful than Malone in the low block and probably the 2nd or 3rd best offensive rebounder of all time.

His and Malone's defense weren't nearly on the level of KG or Duncan but they weren't bad by any means. Factor in rebounding prowess and I don't think Barkley is any worse than Lebron, Magic, or Bird defensively. Very different offensive players, to be sure, but they all basically profile as tweener forwards - best utilized off the ball in defensive schemes where their high IQs can disrupt things. Barkley was often the best defensive player on his team and they weren't ever really shamefully bad defensive teams until he was well past his prime (usually around mid-pack, top 10 in his Finals run). Yes he was a guy you wanted to hide and crash the boards, but I don't see how that's different from many of the greatest offensive players in history.

FraziersKnicks
02-24-2015, 08:44 PM
I think I usually go Duncan, KG, Barkley, Malone, Dirk. I've been watching some of the '92-'93 Suns lately though and I'm not sure Barkley isn't #2. He was more of a handful than Malone in the low block and probably the 2nd or 3rd best offensive rebounder of all time.

His and Malone's defense weren't nearly on the level of KG or Duncan but they weren't bad by any means. Factor in rebounding prowess and I don't think Barkley is any worse than Lebron, Magic, or Bird defensively. Very different offensive players, to be sure, but they all basically profile as tweener forwards - best utilized off the ball in defensive schemes where their high IQs can disrupt things. Barkley was often the best defensive player on his team and they weren't ever really shamefully bad defensive teams until he was well past his prime (usually around mid-pack, top 10 in his Finals run). Yes he was a guy you wanted to hide and crash the boards, but I don't see how that's different from many of the greatest offensive players in history.

Not trying to side track this debate because it's actually very interesting seeing peoples rankings but did you really just put LeBron in the same defensive category as Barkley, Magic and Bird?

:laugh2:

flea
02-24-2015, 09:15 PM
Not trying to side track this debate because it's actually very interesting seeing peoples rankings but did you really just put LeBron in the same defensive category as Barkley, Magic and Bird?

:laugh2:

Yeah, people tend to underrate guys like Bird, Barkley, and Magic. Or alternatively, and probably in your case, overrate Lebron. Lebron was the best in transition among them, but he can't defend guards for more than a few possessions, can't defend any C's or PFs with bulk, doesn't protect the paint, and is a below average rebounder for a 4 (definitely the worst rebounder among the 4 in discussion). I think it's a very fair comparison.

Now you could say if he wasn't using so much energy ballhandling and running around on offense maybe he could have been more useful on the perimeter. To that I say, tough. Guys like Pippen, Jordan, Payton, and Kobe in his prime competed for most of the game on both ends of the floor. Part of the game is endurance, and being a 260 pound behemouth does have its downside there.

FraziersKnicks
02-24-2015, 09:28 PM
Yeah, people tend to underrate guys like Bird, Barkley, and Magic. Or alternatively, and probably in your case, overrate Lebron. Lebron was the best in transition among them, but he can't defend guards for more than a few possessions, can't defend any C's or PFs with bulk, doesn't protect the paint, and is a below average rebounder for a 4 (definitely the worst rebounder among the 4 in discussion). I think it's a very fair comparison.

Now you could say if he wasn't using so much energy ballhandling and running around on offense maybe he could have been more useful on the perimeter. To that I say, tough. Guys like Pippen, Jordan, Payton, and Kobe in his prime competed for most of the game on both ends of the floor. Part of the game is endurance, and being a 260 pound behemouth does have its downside there.

But LeBron's not a 4? :confused:

He played a bit of it in Miami but he is without question a SF. His job isn't to protect the paint or guard smaller players for more than a few possessions (which when he has done, he has done incredibly well). His job (as any other player in NBA history has been) is to guard his positional opponent. To criticise him for not being able to defend guards for more than a few possessions and not being able to defend big PF's and C's (who would have about 4+ inches on him) is kinda criticising him for his incredible athletic versatility, just because he can do it in spurts. He is a 2 time DPOY runner up and has another 2 top 5 finishes and 2 more top 10 finishes.

To put him in the same category as known defensive liabilities such as Chuck and Magic (Bird wasn't as much of a liability before his back gave out) is simply hilarious. I'm gonna take the opinions of the 100+ basketball journalists who vote for the DPOY, who make their living from knowing about these kinda things, over yours.

flea
02-24-2015, 09:39 PM
I never said Lebron was bad. But if all you can do is defend your position at a solid level that makes you a solid defender - not a DPOY runnerup caliber defender. I've been watching Barkley - you tell me how the Suns were a top 10 defensive team in 1993 with that roster. It sure as hell wasn't Kevin Johnson or Tom Chambers anchoring anything. I'm not saying he was great or anything, but he was above average - not a "liability" as you say. Without much defense at all around him, his teams hovered between 11th and 18th in the NBA defensively. Sort of like Lebron's team this year (the first year he doesn't have all-NBA caliber defensive teammates).

And I don't care how many shill journalists pumped the vote on that DPOY, it was to sell magazines. Duncan has been the best defender in the league almost every year since 2001 or so. They don't give it to him every year for the same reason Jordan didn't win MVP every year from 1988-1998 - it's boring and doesn't sell magazines.

FraziersKnicks
02-24-2015, 09:59 PM
I never said Lebron was bad. But if all you can do is defend your position at a solid level that makes you a solid defender - not a DPOY runnerup caliber defender. I've been watching Barkley - you tell me how the Suns were a top 10 defensive team in 1993 with that roster. It sure as hell wasn't Kevin Johnson or Tom Chambers anchoring anything. I'm not saying he was great or anything, but he was above average - not a "liability" as you say. Without much defense at all around him, his teams hovered between 11th and 18th in the NBA defensively. Sort of like Lebron's team this year (the first year he doesn't have all-NBA caliber defensive teammates).

And I don't care how many shill journalists pumped the vote on that DPOY, it was to sell magazines. Duncan has been the best defender in the league almost every year since 2001 or so. They don't give it to him every year for the same reason Jordan didn't win MVP every year from 1988-1998 - it's boring and doesn't sell magazines.

C'mob man, don't act dumb... You know LeBron doesn't just defend his position. In his athletic prime, he could cover any position on the floor for multiple possessions and you wouldn't worry about him checking his man. How many other players in NBA history can you comfortably say that about? In my opinion, zero.

And who were the All-NBA caliber defensive teammates in Miami?

But yeah, the only reason LeBron has 6 consecutive top 10 DPOY finishes is because of magazine sales :rolleyes:

FraziersKnicks
02-24-2015, 10:14 PM
The funny thing is, I agree with pretty much all your other posts in this thread. We have very similar top 5's and I completely agree that Timmy's peak was superior to KG's. Just not with the fact you think Chuck and LeBron were equal caliber defenders.

Trwood12
02-24-2015, 11:05 PM
Like alot if people in here, I got to go with:
Duncan
Barkley
Garnett

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 11:31 PM
So ****ing fail.

His best year was better than Duncan's. Statistically and even with a crap team.

SPURSFAN1
02-24-2015, 11:48 PM
His best year was better than Duncan's. Statistically and even with a crap team.

Who gives a **** if he can stat pad in the RS for 1 year. Look at the ****ing playoffs for true colors. You can see the men from the boys. God Duncan beasted the 2003 playoffs. KG's best numbers for the playoffs was 4 games in total. :laugh:Duncan goes higher and for 24 games in the 2003 playoffs. :worthy: Please stop spreading some fake baloney.

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 11:57 PM
Who gives a **** if he can stat pad in the RS for 1 year. Look at the ****ing playoffs for true colors. You can see the men from the boys. God Duncan beasted the 2003 playoffs. KG's best numbers for the playoffs was 4 games in total. :laugh:Duncan goes higher and for 24 games in the 2003 playoffs. :worthy: Please stop spreading some fake baloney.

Because Playoffs isn't a team game.

SPURSFAN1
02-24-2015, 11:59 PM
Because Playoffs isn't a team game.

:clap:

JasonJohnHorn
02-25-2015, 12:21 AM
For me, there really isn't a question about number one and two: Duncan, then Garnett.

It gets interesting after that. I respect those who pick Dirk, but really, Malone and Barkley were far better in my eyes. Dirk is more like a shooting guard in a center's body. I mean, if you are going to call Dirk a power forward, you might as well list Bird as a power forward (which is the position he played for half his career).


When you watch Dirk play, he is a small forward. His is such a unique talent, it's hard to fit him in a classical position. He's never rebounded as well as elite forward, but he's shot better than any 'power' forward than I've ever seen with the exception of Bird (who again, most people see as a SF).

His defense has never been where KG and Duncan was, and he was never the rebounder or passer that Barkley was, and Malone just just a thoroughbred from his second season to his second last.

I dunno.... I go Duncan KG, Barkley.... but anybody who puts Malone or Dirk in number three has got a case. Anybody who doesn't have Duncan and KG at one and two though....

ewing
02-25-2015, 12:28 AM
Not trying to side track this debate because it's actually very interesting seeing peoples rankings but did you really just put LeBron in the same defensive category as Barkley, Magic and Bird?

:laugh2:

he is a better defender then all 3

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 01:05 AM
For me, there really isn't a question about number one and two: Duncan, then Garnett.

It gets interesting after that. I respect those who pick Dirk, but really, Malone and Barkley were far better in my eyes. Dirk is more like a shooting guard in a center's body. I mean, if you are going to call Dirk a power forward, you might as well list Bird as a power forward (which is the position he played for half his career).


When you watch Dirk play, he is a small forward. His is such a unique talent, it's hard to fit him in a classical position. He's never rebounded as well as elite forward, but he's shot better than any 'power' forward than I've ever seen with the exception of Bird (who again, most people see as a SF).

His defense has never been where KG and Duncan was, and he was never the rebounder or passer that Barkley was, and Malone just just a thoroughbred from his second season to his second last.

I dunno.... I go Duncan KG, Barkley.... but anybody who puts Malone or Dirk in number three has got a case. Anybody who doesn't have Duncan and KG at one and two though....

I completely agree that Duncan>KG are 1 and 2 respectively. Those two played elite defense and was the anchor of it for much of their career while Malone/Barkley/Dirk did not.

YAALREADYKNO
02-25-2015, 04:06 AM
Lol how is kg over Malone and barkley but dirk isn't? It's like some of y'all wanna over look dirks 2011 playoff run. That one playoff run was better than anything Malone barkley or kg has done in the playoffs lol.If Malone kg or barkley have a run like that people would be saying they have a case for goat PF but when dirk does it its " one playoff run does not make you as good as the other guys" like really? Give credit where credit is due.

Thumper 88
02-25-2015, 09:29 AM
I completely agree that Duncan>KG are 1 and 2 respectively. Those two played elite defense and was the anchor of it for much of their career while Malone/Barkley/Dirk did not.

You could say Dirk was the anchor of the Mavs offense until this year.

Everything ran through Dirk most of the game and especially in the last 8 minutes of it

basch152
02-25-2015, 02:31 PM
C'mob man, don't act dumb... You know LeBron doesn't just defend his position. In his athletic prime, he could cover any position on the floor for multiple possessions and you wouldn't worry about him checking his man. How many other players in NBA history can you comfortably say that about? In my opinion, zero.

And who were the All-NBA caliber defensive teammates in Miami?

But yeah, the only reason LeBron has 6 consecutive top 10 DPOY finishes is because of magazine sales :rolleyes:


To each his own, I suppose, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a ton of analysts or athletes who would rank Webber ahead of those guys. And he may have had a more varied or skilled offensive game than some of those guys, but variation and skill doesn't equate to success or production. I would definitely take Barkley, Dirk and Malone offensively over Webber. They were more productive and far, far more efficient. Webber had a career 51.3% TS%. That's mediocre by guard standards and well below average for a big man in his era.

You're insane.

Webber was a better rebounder, defender(which honestly, the difference in their defensive abilities is the biggest difference between the two), passer, ball handler, low post player, had better court vision, and you're telling me for one year in their prime you'd rather have Dirk because he can shoot free throws and 3 pointers better? That's literally about all Dirk does better than Webber.

Insane.

gamechanger0908
02-25-2015, 02:53 PM
Aldridge may have a chance towards the end of his career

basch152
02-25-2015, 03:13 PM
Aldridge may have a chance towards the end of his career

I doubt it. Outside of pure offensive abilities he doesn't have too much going for him compared to the others. He's never been an elite defender, passer, or rebounder.

Everyone else considered in the mix for top 3 are generally elite in at least one of those categories, if not all three(with the exception of dirk).

slashsnake
02-25-2015, 03:46 PM
You're insane.

Webber was a better rebounder, defender(which honestly, the difference in their defensive abilities is the biggest difference between the two), passer, ball handler, low post player, had better court vision, and you're telling me for one year in their prime you'd rather have Dirk because he can shoot free throws and 3 pointers better? That's literally about all Dirk does better than Webber.

Insane.

Insane? I like passing bigs, its fun. So are point guards that can rebound. But they aren't the meat and potatoes of what you are paying them to do. I will pass on better "court vision, ball handling, passing" from a PF any day of the week if I can get a guy who actually shows up in the playoffs. 2000-2001 was Webbers best year. Swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round when he showed up and shot under 40%. I'll take a player with a basketball IQ. One who can lead his team not break it apart. What good is a guy you can build around if he's going to force his way out in a couple years?

You talk better rebounding? Umm, Dirk averages 10 boards a game in the post-season. Webber got double digit boards in 2 playoff runs for his career (8.7 a game for his post-season career). Webber's shot always disappeared when it mattered most. Dirk got a LOT better in the playoffs. Webber got a LOT worse in the playoffs.

You can pack the paint vs. Webber with other all star bigs in the post-season and just watch him wither away. Dirk created mismatches. He shot better in the biggest moments. He rebounded better. He led his team better. He didn't get hurt. He didn't disappear when he was needed the most. Dirk wasn't going 8-25 with 7 turnovers in the do or die game for his best season.

You really want the ball in Webbers hands in a big moment??? Game on the line??? No timeouts??

Insane is right.


As for top PF's..

1 even though he's played center most of his career, I'll still call him a PF here... Duncan
2. Elvin Hayes
3. Karl Malone
4. Bob Pettit
5 Charles Barkley
6. Garnett
7 Dirk
8 McHale (gets in here over Dolph Shayes on being more talented though Dolph was better in comparison to the rest of the league)


I'm ok with 2-4 moving around a bit, and same with 5-7.

basch152
02-25-2015, 06:48 PM
Insane? I like passing bigs, its fun. So are point guards that can rebound. But they aren't the meat and potatoes of what you are paying them to do. I will pass on better "court vision, ball handling, passing" from a PF any day of the week if I can get a guy who actually shows up in the playoffs. 2000-2001 was Webbers best year. Swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round when he showed up and shot under 40%. I'll take a player with a basketball IQ. One who can lead his team not break it apart. What good is a guy you can build around if he's going to force his way out in a couple years?

Did you also miss the better defender, rebounder, low post player?

Also, a big man that can pass from the post is something you can completely build a team from the ground up around. Do you have no idea how big that can be for a team? It elevates the value of role players like 3 pt shooters and swingmen because someone like Cwebb who demands a double in the low post, always forces the double teams to be wary of the pass to a wide open three or a free cutter running down the lane.

The fact that you think those abilities aren't very valuable tells me a lot about you...


You talk better rebounding? Umm, Dirk averages 10 boards a game in the post-season. Webber got double digit boards in 2 playoff runs for his career (8.7 a game for his post-season career). Webber's shot always disappeared when it mattered most. Dirk got a LOT better in the playoffs. Webber got a LOT worse in the playoffs.

You want to use a small playoff sample size to say who was a better rebounder when Webber consistantly got more rebounds throughout his career? Seriously? I mean freaking seriously? One of the dumbest things I've ever seen. You don't suddenly become a better rebounder in the playoffs. You don't go "well, time to turn it on, I suddenly know how to position myself and make myself more athletic to get those rebounds now".

This is what we call confirmation bias. You have a predetermined opinion that Dirk is better, and then look for reasons to say he's better. You ignore all the reasons Webber is a better rebounder, then point to what, the 8 games a post season for most of dirks career to say he's a better rebounder? That is seriously flawed logic.

You also seem to want to ignore the massive difference in their defensive playmaking abilities. That is seriously the biggest difference between the two.


You really want the ball in Webbers hands in a big moment??? Game on the line??? No timeouts??

And apparently you missed how most of Dirks career until he finally won his championship that Dirk was too soft and that's why he couldn't win, and his defense was too lacking.

You also apparently have missed a lot of Webbers huge playoff games.

Specifically the 2002 western conference finals that the Kings got robbed of, he had a huge game every single game and was carrying the Kings half the time.

Thumper 88
02-25-2015, 06:57 PM
You're insane.

Webber was a better rebounder, defender(which honestly, the difference in their defensive abilities is the biggest difference between the two), passer, ball handler, low post player, had better court vision, and you're telling me for one year in their prime you'd rather have Dirk because he can shoot free throws and 3 pointers better? That's literally about all Dirk does better than Webber.

Insane.

Compare the two careers and you would rather have Web on your team? Meanwhile Dirk is still adding to his

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:04 PM
Lol how is kg over Malone and barkley but dirk isn't? It's like some of y'all wanna over look dirks 2011 playoff run. That one playoff run was better than anything Malone barkley or kg has done in the playoffs lol.If Malone kg or barkley have a run like that people would be saying they have a case for goat PF but when dirk does it its " one playoff run does not make you as good as the other guys" like really? Give credit where credit is due.

One playoff run doesn't make up for the fact that KG was superior in almost every facet of the game compared to Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer/shooter, that is all. KG is a better passer, rebounder, miles better in defense, and people forget that KG could play MULTIPLE positions with ease.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 07:08 PM
Lol how is kg over Malone and barkley but dirk isn't? It's like some of y'all wanna over look dirks 2011 playoff run. That one playoff run was better than anything Malone barkley or kg has done in the playoffs lol.If Malone kg or barkley have a run like that people would be saying they have a case for goat PF but when dirk does it its " one playoff run does not make you as good as the other guys" like really? Give credit where credit is due.

One playoff run doesn't make up for the fact that KG was superior in almost every facet of the game compared to Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer/shooter, that is all. KG is a better passer, rebounder, miles better in defense, and people forget that KG could play MULTIPLE positions with ease.

Besides perimeter shooting, Karl Malone is superior to Dirk in everyway.

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:14 PM
Besides perimeter shooting, Karl Malone is superior to Dirk in everyway.

He is. I'm not saying he isn't but that was relatively my POV on KG vs Dirk. Malone vs Dirk is completely different. Dirk never had a player like Stockton -- who you can certainly argue was just as good as Malone. Dirk has been through it all and in 2011, had an amazing playoff run. Malone relatively disappeared against the Bulls when it mattered. He was shut down completely. Could you imagine Malone not having Stockton? Dirk/KG never had that during their prime years while Malone had it for much of his career. Barkley vs Malone would be interesting but Dirk is often underrated here.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 07:44 PM
Besides perimeter shooting, Karl Malone is superior to Dirk in everyway.

He is. I'm not saying he isn't but that was relatively my POV on KG vs Dirk. Malone vs Dirk is completely different. Dirk never had a player like Stockton -- who you can certainly argue was just as good as Malone. Dirk has been through it all and in 2011, had an amazing playoff run. Malone relatively disappeared against the Bulls when it mattered. He was shut down completely. Could you imagine Malone not having Stockton? Dirk/KG never had that during their prime years while Malone had it for much of his career. Barkley vs Malone would be interesting but Dirk is often underrated here.

Malone created Stockton.

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:50 PM
Malone created Stockton.

Lol? Lemme guess.. Pippen is only Pippen because MJ created him too? Give me a break. They complimented each others game. Those are two legends... It's completely ineffective to say one made the other when Malone achieved the greatest success while playing with Stockton.

Thumper 88
02-25-2015, 09:31 PM
One playoff run doesn't make up for the fact that KG was superior in almost every facet of the game compared to Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer/shooter, that is all. KG is a better passer, rebounder, miles better in defense, and people forget that KG could play MULTIPLE positions with ease.

KG has also fallen off allot more than Dirk whereas Dirk is still going strong and KG has never been better in the playoffs than Dirk

leprechaun5
02-25-2015, 10:03 PM
KG has also fallen off allot more than Dirk whereas Dirk is still going strong and KG has never been better in the playoffs than Dirk

KG was phenomenal in 2004 run (his game 7 vs Kings is one of the best playoff performances ever) and he was by far the best player on 2008 Celtics championship team. He's a top 5 defender ever and on his peak the most dominant two-way PF ever. I have Dirk at 3 but 1 and 2 are not debatable IMO. Duncan then KG.

Thumper 88
02-25-2015, 10:08 PM
I would say Dirk has had the better career and it looks like Dirk can still have more to write about..

But to each their own and I can understand why people would put kg or Malone over Dirk

YAALREADYKNO
02-25-2015, 10:12 PM
One playoff run doesn't make up for the fact that KG was superior in almost every facet of the game compared to Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer/shooter, that is all. KG is a better passer, rebounder, miles better in defense, and people forget that KG could play MULTIPLE positions with ease.


One playoff run doesn't make up for the fact that KG was superior in almost every facet of the game compared to Dirk. Dirk is a better scorer/shooter, that is all. KG is a better passer, rebounder, miles better in defense, and people forget that KG could play MULTIPLE positions with ease.

So we should completely ignore the fact that Dirk is a better playoff performer than Kg? Y'all make it seem like Kg was a god or something. What most of y'all don't understand is that Kg doesn't have that extra gear to carry the scoring load or to takeover games to get your teams over the hump come playoff time. I don't understand how y'all can just completely ride off the fact that kg constantly under performed for his team when it really mattered lol don't say he's never had help in MN either because in 02 both billups and sczerbiak averaged 22 & 20 yet the wolves still got swept not to mention in 04-05 after his wcf run he failed to make the playoffs over a pau gasol led Memphis team in which pau only played 56 games

YAALREADYKNO
02-25-2015, 10:15 PM
Besides perimeter shooting, Karl Malone is superior to Dirk in everyway.

Yet Dirk has made as many finals as Malone who played with another all time great and HOFer

SPURSFAN1
02-25-2015, 10:49 PM
Duncan. Dirk.

Mr.B
02-26-2015, 02:19 AM
we have spoken about this. KG's overall impact (regular season and playoffs), when you measure he is one of the best defensive players in history, gives him the nod over Dirk to me.

For me what gives Dirk the bid over KG is head to head performances while in their prime. KG is without a doubt one of the greatest defensive players of all time but head to head Dirk always performed better. As great a defender as KG was he could never stop Dirk. So in my opinion Dirk gets the nod over KG. Again that's my opinion.

I agree with whoever said that Duncan is clearly #1. After that Malone, Dirk, KG, and Barkley could be placed in any order and not be wrong. All are arguably #2 on that list.

FlashBolt
02-26-2015, 04:07 AM
For me what gives Dirk the bid over KG is head to head performances while in their prime. KG is without a doubt one of the greatest defensive players of all time but head to head Dirk always performed better. As great a defender as KG was he could never stop Dirk. So in my opinion Dirk gets the nod over KG. Again that's my opinion.

I agree with whoever said that Duncan is clearly #1. After that Malone, Dirk, KG, and Barkley could be placed in any order and not be wrong. All are arguably #2 on that list.

LOL. KG at his prime DESTROYED Dirk. Literally, every fricking game.

YAALREADYKNO
02-26-2015, 04:59 AM
LOL. KG at his prime DESTROYED Dirk. Literally, every fricking game.

Like the 02 playoffs?

Thumper 88
02-26-2015, 10:23 AM
For me what gives Dirk the bid over KG is head to head performances while in their prime. KG is without a doubt one of the greatest defensive players of all time but head to head Dirk always performed better. As great a defender as KG was he could never stop Dirk. So in my opinion Dirk gets the nod over KG. Again that's my opinion.

I agree with whoever said that Duncan is clearly #1. After that Malone, Dirk, KG, and Barkley could be placed in any order and not be wrong. All are arguably #2 on that list.
100% feel the same way, iirc in a thread like this we had the same rankings

Thumper 88
02-26-2015, 10:24 AM
LOL. KG at his prime DESTROYED Dirk. Literally, every fricking game.

Who had the longer and better prime overall?

The answer is Dirk

hidalgo
02-26-2015, 10:31 AM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Dirk Nowitzki (#2-5 are almost a tie really, nobody truly separates themselves, but i go with Dirk)
3. Karl Mailbags
4. Charles Barkley
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Kevin Mchale
7. Pau Gasol

Oefarmy2005
02-26-2015, 10:41 AM
I think it's been discussed to no end. If you switch KG and Duncan, KG wins 6 chips and he is number one on that list - I personally think it's that close talent wise, not accomplishment wise. Duncan was flat out better int he playoffs, but I can argue that KG was gassed come playoff time because he had to carry his team hard every year just to get there. And when people start talking about KG's production falling off, let's not forget that last year(when it really took a dip) should be compared to Duncan's next year. Time in the NBA matters a ton more than actual player age and KG was in his 18th season 2 years ago.

kdspurman
02-26-2015, 11:15 AM
I think it's been discussed to no end. If you switch KG and Duncan, KG wins 6 chips and he is number one on that list - I personally think it's that close talent wise, not accomplishment wise. Duncan was flat out better int he playoffs, but I can argue that KG was gassed come playoff time because he had to carry his team hard every year just to get there. And when people start talking about KG's production falling off, let's not forget that last year(when it really took a dip) should be compared to Duncan's next year. Time in the NBA matters a ton more than actual player age and KG was in his 18th season 2 years ago.

Not that easy to say that. Doubt that's the case anyway, but w/e lol

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-26-2015, 11:48 AM
Well the 10,000 extra minutes helps push him up there.

Malone was the better shooter .577 vs .551 TS%
Similar PER, 23.9 vs 24.5
WS gives Malone the edge, but that's because of the extra minutes - 234.6 vs 197.3, but Malone and Duncan are close in WS per 48 (.205 vs .210, and if you assume Duncan will play another year after this one, they will end up closer.


The only real argument I see for Duncan is that he has the five chips with several different supporting players. I don't see any reason to say Duncan is a slam dunk as number one. Malone had a fantastic career.

One word: Defense

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-26-2015, 11:57 AM
1) Duncan
2) KG
3) Malone

That is my top 3 in order. Obviously its very tough to leave out Dirk and Barkley and either one could be as high as #2 on this list. The reason why I go KG #2 is because of his 2 way play. The guy got it done at both ends of the floor as well as anybody. His career in Minnesota was spent playing on teams with inferior talent around him outside of the Sam Cassell/Latrell Sprewell year, but that was short lived. As soon as he got traded to a good team (Boston) he won a championship and could have easily won more than one. Unfortunately it happened too late in his career as he began to decline after the 3rd year in Boston. If he had a good supporting case in his prime, who knows what could have happened. He could have won multiple championships. He isn't on Duncan's level mainly because of Duncan's amazing longevity and the fact that Duncan can pretty much do everything that KG can. The whole rings argument can be a bit overplayed at times. Duncan had a very consistent supporting cast throughout his career and more importantly, he plays for an all time great coach. He still deserves credit for his rings, but I don't think he is lightyears better than the other PF's. Still though, he is clearly #1, just not by as much as everyone says.

leprechaun5
02-26-2015, 12:31 PM
Who had the longer and better prime overall?

The answer is Dirk

No it isn't. KG had the better prime by far.

Thumper 88
02-26-2015, 02:37 PM
KG's prime was like 3 years

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-26-2015, 02:50 PM
KG's prime was like 3 years

Ridiculous. He had like a solid 7-8 years of excellence.

YAALREADYKNO
02-26-2015, 03:15 PM
I guess playoffs don't matter when it comes to kg smh As great as he was I doubt he could've done what Duncan did in 03 or what Dirk did in 11

Thumper 88
02-26-2015, 03:38 PM
Ridiculous. He had like a solid 7-8 years of excellence.

And Dirk has had 12+ of solid production, Dirk has been better for longer

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-26-2015, 04:53 PM
Garnett has been better for shorter actually. That is the correct way to say it. KG in his prime was better than Dirk in his prime. Dirk doesn't even play defense. Dirk was a great player offensively, but KG was excellent on both ends during his prime.

In the end, I choose Garnett because I think he was good long enough.

slashsnake
02-26-2015, 05:42 PM
You want to use a small playoff sample size to say who was a better rebounder when Webber consistantly got more rebounds throughout his career? Seriously? I mean freaking seriously? One of the dumbest things I've ever seen. You don't suddenly become a better rebounder in the playoffs. You don't go "well, time to turn it on, I suddenly know how to position myself and make myself more athletic to get those rebounds now".



So you are saying that even though Dirk took his game to another level and took on more responsibility and actually, like in real life, over a long period of time REBOUNDED BETTER... you are saying that's impossible? lol. It's like seeing a guy shoot 95% from the line one year and saying "no NBA player can shoot 95% from the line for a season".

I am just saying Webber broke up every team he went to. Teams tried to build around him, he got pissed and broke it or crumbled in the playoffs.

And yes you can become a better performer in the playoffs. You can step up your game against the best guys out there, or you can disappear... That is why Dirk is all of a sudden so much better than Webber in the playoffs in the post and rebounding. Lots of guys do it. Rondo. Lebron. Shaq. But I guess all their careers are just figments of our imagination.

There's a reason plenty take a look at Webber's basketball career and call him one of the biggest chokers in basketball history. He disappeared in the playoffs, and he had the time out technical at Michigan. Look how bad that is. You sit there and point out his "great" 2002 playoff run. That was the series Shaq just dominated him every single play inside and even Robert Horry averaged a double double on him. The series when we saw a 75% foul shooter go 45% from the line, disappear in the clutch in game 7 (0-4 to end it) and put it on Bibby's shoulders instead to try and get it won.

Great talented and coached teams could, and regularly did find a way to stop Webber in the post-season. They didn't with Dirk.

I could care less who got 13 boards vs. a 20 win Wizards team in the first month of the NBA season. I'll take the guy who got 13 vs. a 50 win team in the post-season. That, to me defines greatness. Not beating up on a weak team and shrinking when it matters most, but playing your best in the toughest situations.

YAALREADYKNO
02-26-2015, 07:18 PM
So you are saying that even though Dirk took his game to another level and took on more responsibility and actually, like in real life, over a long period of time REBOUNDED BETTER... you are saying that's impossible? lol. It's like seeing a guy shoot 95% from the line one year and saying "no NBA player can shoot 95% from the line for a season".

I am just saying Webber broke up every team he went to. Teams tried to build around him, he got pissed and broke it or crumbled in the playoffs.

And yes you can become a better performer in the playoffs. You can step up your game against the best guys out there, or you can disappear... That is why Dirk is all of a sudden so much better than Webber in the playoffs in the post and rebounding. Lots of guys do it. Rondo. Lebron. Shaq. But I guess all their careers are just figments of our imagination.

There's a reason plenty take a look at Webber's basketball career and call him one of the biggest chokers in basketball history. He disappeared in the playoffs, and he had the time out technical at Michigan. Look how bad that is. You sit there and point out his "great" 2002 playoff run. That was the series Shaq just dominated him every single play inside and even Robert Horry averaged a double double on him. The series when we saw a 75% foul shooter go 45% from the line, disappear in the clutch in game 7 (0-4 to end it) and put it on Bibby's shoulders instead to try and get it won.

Great talented and coached teams could, and regularly did find a way to stop Webber in the post-season. They didn't with Dirk.

I could care less who got 13 boards vs. a 20 win Wizards team in the first month of the NBA season. I'll take the guy who got 13 vs. a 50 win team in the post-season. That, to me defines greatness. Not beating up on a weak team and shrinking when it matters most, but playing your best in the toughest situations.

👏👏👏

JasonJohnHorn
02-26-2015, 10:35 PM
Anybody bemoaning KG's playoffs and putting Dirk ahead of him fail to consider the end result: both have two finals appearances and one ring. Both have a reg-season MVP award, but only Garnett has a DPOY.


Is Dirk a better shooter? Obviously. A better passer? No. A better mid-range jump-shooter? Not by much. A better post player? Yeah, a little smoother, but marginally. Garnett KILLS him on defense and KILLS him on the boards.


We also forget that Dirk had the likes of Findley and Nash, who were fantastics, and failed to do anything with them in his prime. It wasn't until Dirk got Chandler to pick up his defensive slack that he was able to win.


Mean while, Nash was in the conference finals with Amar'e and Finley was wining rings with Duncan.


Dirk is great, no doubt, but Garnett being stuck on a $#!TTY Minny team because his GM had to forfeit first rounders because of a illegal contract with Joe Smith (JOE SMITH) and pick awful players with the picks he did have, should not be held against him. The first season KG had a legit team (Spree and Cassell) he was in the conference finals, where the officials handed the series to the Lakers. After that, Spree bolted 'cause he had to feed his kids and the T-Wolves were back to first-round fodder. In Boston KG showed what he could do when he had a really team.


No disrespect to Dirk. If this was strictly about offense, I'd have no problem him him near the top of the list with Barkley and Malone, but the game goes two ways, and for that reason. Duncan and KG are at the top of the list for me.

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 12:20 AM
Anybody bemoaning KG's playoffs and putting Dirk ahead of him fail to consider the end result: both have two finals appearances and one ring. Both have a reg-season MVP award, but only Garnett has a DPOY.


Is Dirk a better shooter? Obviously. A better passer? No. A better mid-range jump-shooter? Not by much. A better post player? Yeah, a little smoother, but marginally. Garnett KILLS him on defense and KILLS him on the boards.


We also forget that Dirk had the likes of Findley and Nash, who were fantastics, and failed to do anything with them in his prime. It wasn't until Dirk got Chandler to pick up his defensive slack that he was able to win.


Mean while, Nash was in the conference finals with Amar'e and Finley was wining rings with Duncan.


Dirk is great, no doubt, but Garnett being stuck on a $#!TTY Minny team because his GM had to forfeit first rounders because of a illegal contract with Joe Smith (JOE SMITH) and pick awful players with the picks he did have, should not be held against him. The first season KG had a legit team (Spree and Cassell) he was in the conference finals, where the officials handed the series to the Lakers. After that, Spree bolted 'cause he had to feed his kids and the T-Wolves were back to first-round fodder. In Boston KG showed what he could do when he had a really team.


No disrespect to Dirk. If this was strictly about offense, I'd have no problem him him near the top of the list with Barkley and Malone, but the game goes two ways, and for that reason. Duncan and KG are at the top of the list for me.

You fail to realize the bigger picture when it comes to dirk vs kg in the playoffs. For someone who's supposed to have top 5 all time talent and be this much superior player, he sure has disappeared alot. We all know kg had some pretty bad teams in MN but lets not act like he's never had any help either. In 02 billups and sczerbiak both averaged 22 & 20 in the playoffs yet the wolves got swept. How is it that two role players elevate there games significantly yet this "god like superstar" who went up against probably the worst defensive front line of that season in Dirk, Najera, Lafrentz couldn't elevate himself? All I've been hearing is "well if kg had someone early in his career to help him, he would've done better in the playoffs" He had that in 02 and still failed to even get a win against the mavericks. Where was his defense when dirk was going off for 33 & 15 (average for that series) and 39 & 17 in the close out game? What excuse are you gonna make for Kg then? Oh and the rebounding in the playoffs 10.7 for kg 10.1 for dirk. Yeah he absouloutley "kills" dirk in that category right? Dirk is one of 4 players in NBA history to avg 25 & 10 in the playoffs.

In Boston he showed he can be a great piece to a championship team. Perfect example game 7 of the 2nd round against Lebron and the Cavs. It took a championship performance from PAUL PIERCE not kg but Paul pierce to bail them out of that series. Pierce went off for 41 while kg did what? 13 pts? And you say Dirk didn't get his ring till Tyson chandler came well the same can be said about Paul Pierce having to help score and make alot of the clutch shots Kg fails to make and now tell me who's the superior player out of chandler and pierce? The case for kg solely rests on the regular season. The case for Dirk is in the playoffs and last time I checked, a superstars legacy is much more effected by how they do in the playoffs more so than the regular season and that's a category Dirk clearly beats Kg in. Oh and while Nash was in the conference finals with amare and Finley was winning a ring with Duncan. Dirk was in the NBA FINALS with Eric Dampier 😂

FlashBolt
02-27-2015, 01:39 AM
Like the 02 playoffs?

Obviously I didn't mean it literally but KG has outperformed Dirk head to head in their prime. As for the 02 playoffs, yeah, Dirk went off... But KG only put up 24,19,5...

Who had the longer and better prime overall?

The answer is Dirk

You just said KG's prime was three years.. I question your judgement on their prime years.


KG's prime was like 3 years

I think you're talking about a different KG.

G_S_W
02-27-2015, 02:05 AM
And Dirk has had 12+ of solid production, Dirk has been better for longer

KG had 9 consecutive 20+ ppg/10+rpg seasons, 11 consecutive 18+ ppg/9+ rpg, and 12 consecutive 17+ ppg/8+ rpg seasons.

Dirk meanwhile, never had a 20/10 season, although he came very close in 2 seasons.

In the meantime, Garnett has always been superior defensively. Dirk is the better offensive player, but KG could have been far more prolific if he had not placed such a strong emphasis on keeping teammates involved as a playmaker.

Dirk has had the better career, but KG was mired with inferior teammates and an inept front office during his prime years. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

If KG and Dirk had traded organizations, KG's career would have been superior to Dirk's. As it stands, Dirk has had the better career, but by a rather slim margin.

Thumper 88
02-27-2015, 09:32 AM
KG had 9 consecutive 20+ ppg/10+rpg seasons, 11 consecutive 18+ ppg/9+ rpg, and 12 consecutive 17+ ppg/8+ rpg seasons.

Dirk meanwhile, never had a 20/10 season, although he came very close in 2 seasons.

In the meantime, Garnett has always been superior defensively. Dirk is the better offensive player, but KG could have been far more prolific if he had not placed such a strong emphasis on keeping teammates involved as a playmaker.

Dirk has had the better career, but KG was mired with inferior teammates and an inept front office during his prime years. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

If KG and Dirk had traded organizations, KG's career would have been superior to Dirk's. As it stands, Dirk has had the better career, but by a rather slim margin.
That last sentence says it all

Mr.B
02-27-2015, 10:40 AM
Anybody bemoaning KG's playoffs and putting Dirk ahead of him fail to consider the end result: both have two finals appearances and one ring. Both have a reg-season MVP award, but only Garnett has a DPOY.


Is Dirk a better shooter? Obviously. A better passer? No. A better mid-range jump-shooter? Not by much. A better post player? Yeah, a little smoother, but marginally. Garnett KILLS him on defense and KILLS him on the boards.


We also forget that Dirk had the likes of Findley and Nash, who were fantastics, and failed to do anything with them in his prime. It wasn't until Dirk got Chandler to pick up his defensive slack that he was able to win.


Mean while, Nash was in the conference finals with Amar'e and Finley was wining rings with Duncan.


Dirk is great, no doubt, but Garnett being stuck on a $#!TTY Minny team because his GM had to forfeit first rounders because of a illegal contract with Joe Smith (JOE SMITH) and pick awful players with the picks he did have, should not be held against him. The first season KG had a legit team (Spree and Cassell) he was in the conference finals, where the officials handed the series to the Lakers. After that, Spree bolted 'cause he had to feed his kids and the T-Wolves were back to first-round fodder. In Boston KG showed what he could do when he had a really team.


No disrespect to Dirk. If this was strictly about offense, I'd have no problem him him near the top of the list with Barkley and Malone, but the game goes two ways, and for that reason. Duncan and KG are at the top of the list for me.

Only one has a Finals MVP too and guess what, it's not KG.

Mr.B
02-27-2015, 10:45 AM
Dirk ALWAYS elevated his game in the playoffs. As great as he was in the regular season he was always better in the playoffs.

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 11:32 AM
That last sentence says it all

KG has 9 All defensive first team, has DPOY, is one of the 5 defenders ever, and by far was the best player in 2008 championship team. I don't know how old are you but you clearly don't remember what a monster KG was in his peak. As i said earlier it's much easier to defend someone in the playoffs while double and triple teaming him. You have almost 5 posts per page and saying almost the same thing every time while totally ignoring that Dirk was a liability on D for his entire career while the other player you are comparing him to is an all time great.

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 11:44 AM
KG has 9 All defensive first team, has DPOY, is one of the 5 defenders ever, and by far was the best player in 2008 championship team. I don't know how old are you but you clearly don't remember what a monster KG was in his peak. As i said earlier it's much easier to defend someone in the playoffs while double and triple teaming him. You have almost 5 posts per page and saying almost the same thing every time while totally ignoring that Dirk was a liability on D for his entire career while the other player you are comparing him to is an all time great.


how was KG the "far best player" on the Celtics in 08 when pierce won finals MVP? I hate how KG fans wanna completely over look the fact that it was pierce hittin all them go-ahead shots for the C's. Dirk was a liability for the early part of his career. He became at least serviceable on that end. I mean you're not part of a couple of top 10 defenses in the NBA with eric dampier as your center and josh howard as your best perimeter defender if you've been a liability your whole entire career lol

Thumper 88
02-27-2015, 11:52 AM
KG has 9 All defensive first team, has DPOY, is one of the 5 defenders ever, and by far was the best player in 2008 championship team. I don't know how old are you but you clearly don't remember what a monster KG was in his peak. As i said earlier it's much easier to defend someone in the playoffs while double and triple teaming him. You have almost 5 posts per page and saying almost the same thing every time while totally ignoring that Dirk was a liability on D for his entire career while the other player you are comparing him to is an all time great.

KG fell off like a rock in water, while Dirk is still treading

ewing
02-27-2015, 11:54 AM
KG homers are like the kids that would tell you about how starbury averaged 25 and 8 all day. I'm not saying he was starbury but he was closer to a Rasheed Wallace that showed up regularly then Micheal Jordan. KG simply was built be a great complementary player. Like someone else on here said, you needed a solid team with big time rim protector to build around Dirk. You need a solid team and guys like Paul Pierce to build a real winner around KG. He was more Robert Parish then Larry Bird

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 11:56 AM
^^ Ok, great debate. Thank you for giving us wisdom.

Thumper 88
02-27-2015, 11:57 AM
KG homers are like the kids that would tell you about how starbury averaged 25 and 8 all day. I'm not saying he was starbury but he was closer to a Rasheed Wallace that showed up regularly then Micheal Jordan. KG simply was built be a great complementary player. Like someone else on here said, you needed a solid team with big time rim protector to build around Dirk. You need a solid team and guys like Paul Pierce to build a real winner around KG. He was more Robert Parish then Larry Bird

boom shakalaka

ewing
02-27-2015, 12:01 PM
^^ Ok, great debate. Thank you for giving us wisdom.

take a look at the Chief's #s its not a diss. Plus look his length, his mid range game in that era, and how much he picked up Bird and McHale's slack on the defensive end. He was also nasty mofo. His also needed two aplha dog offensive players to ride with. Sound like anyone.

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 12:16 PM
take a look at the Chief's #s its not a diss. Plus look his length, his mid range game in that era, and how much he picked up Bird and McHale's slack on the defensive end. He was also nasty mofo. His also needed two aplha dog offensive players to ride with. Sound like anyone.

Tell me one player who won a championship by himself? You're sounding ridiculous, KG was by far the best player in 2008 team and he was a monster in 2004 run and a monster in most of his prime years. Everybody needs help to succeed and KG didn't have that for most of his prime years in Minny.

ewing
02-27-2015, 12:35 PM
Tell me one player who won a championship by himself? You're sounding ridiculous, KG was by far the best player in 2008 team and he was a monster in 2004 run and a monster in most of his prime years. Everybody needs help to succeed and KG didn't have that for most of his prime years in Minny.


it's the kind of help he needed. He needed guys like PP and Sam Cassell- one of the best clutch playoff performer ever. These kind of offensive players do not grow on trees. The Chief was a monster too but he wasn't going to win with a supporting caste of role players. Neither was KG. The 2011 Dallas Mavs go no where with a KG or Robert Parish instead of Dirk. I think that matters

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 12:59 PM
it's the kind of help he needed. He needed guys like PP and Sam Cassell- one of the best clutch playoff performer ever. These kind of offensive players do not grow on trees. The Chief was a monster too but he wasn't going to win with a supporting caste of role players. Neither was KG. The 2011 Dallas Mavs go no where with a KG or Robert Parish instead of Dirk. I think that matters

That Mavs team was deep, don't wanna take nothing away from Dirk but that team wouldn't stand a chance of winning anything without Tyson Chandler. Terry was phenomenal throughout the playoffs plus they had Marion, Kidd. Dirk is number 3 in my list mainly because of this playoff run but to put him ahead of KG doesn't make sense since KG beats him in every category of basketball game except for scoring.

ewing
02-27-2015, 01:05 PM
That Mavs team was deep, don't wanna take nothing away from Dirk but that team wouldn't stand a chance of winning anything without Tyson Chandler. Terry was phenomenal throughout the playoffs plus they had Marion, Kidd. Dirk is number 3 in my list mainly because of this playoff run but to put him ahead of KG doesn't make sense since KG beats him in every category of basketball game except for scoring.

I never they weren't good role players.

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 01:08 PM
I never they weren't good role players.

Chandler was a main piece in that team, otherwise Nowitzki and Terry would be more than exposed on D. Chandler deserves a lot of credit for that championship.

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 01:17 PM
That Mavs team was deep, don't wanna take nothing away from Dirk but that team wouldn't stand a chance of winning anything without Tyson Chandler. Terry was phenomenal throughout the playoffs plus they had Marion, Kidd. Dirk is number 3 in my list mainly because of this playoff run but to put him ahead of KG doesn't make sense since KG beats him in every category of basketball game except for scoring.

You bring up all these role players about the mavs but forget that they went 2-7 without dirk that yr. Yes Tyson Chandler was an important piece of that championship run but you can't sit here and tell me that he was more important than dirk. Kg played more of that Tyson chandler role than he did Dirks in 08.

ewing
02-27-2015, 01:27 PM
Chandler was a main piece in that team, otherwise Nowitzki and Terry would be more than exposed on D. Chandler deserves a lot of credit for that championship.

no ****. They needed a solid rim protector that could move. Tyson fit the bill. I'm not diminishing his or anyone else's contribution to that team. Tyson's skill set is more easily replaced then a guy like Paul Pierce though.

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 02:15 PM
You bring up all these role players about the mavs but forget that they went 2-7 without dirk that yr. Yes Tyson Chandler was an important piece of that championship run but you can't sit here and tell me that he was more important than dirk. Kg played more of that Tyson chandler role than he did Dirks in 08.

I didn't say Chandler was more important, i just said that team goes nowhere without Chandler. Dirk was the main piece in Mavs championship run as was KG the main piece in Celtics championship run.

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 02:18 PM
no ****. They needed a solid rim protector that could move. Tyson fit the bill. I'm not diminishing his or anyone else's contribution to that team. Tyson's skill set is more easily replaced then a guy like Paul Pierce though.

That's why is a team game. Everybody needs to do their job for a team to be able to succeed. In Mavs case Chandler fit the bill to cover Nowitzki's and Terry's defensive liabilities and to preserve them energy to score on the other end, a thing that KG never had because he was the best defensive player on the team, always.

iliketurtles24
02-27-2015, 02:33 PM
Duncan
KG
Malone/Charles/ Dirk

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 02:36 PM
I didn't say Chandler was more important, i just said that team goes nowhere without Chandler. Dirk was the main piece in Mavs championship run as was KG the main piece in Celtics championship run.

Him and Pierce were equal to me. Why do KG fans wanna diminish what pierce did in those playoffs? smh

ewing
02-27-2015, 02:47 PM
That's why is a team game. Everybody needs to do their job for a team to be able to succeed. In Mavs case Chandler fit the bill to cover Nowitzki's and Terry's defensive liabilities and to preserve them energy to score on the other end, a thing that KG never had because he was the best defensive player on the team, always.

there is no point in us repeating ourselves. I think that when you get to the point where you are comparing greatness at some point the ability to be depended on as a team's primary scorer when needed becomes absolutely necessary. I do not think KG at any point in his career had what it took to be dependent on as the primary scorer for his team at the highest level. You can disagree or assert that KG's defensive prowess makes up for what he lacked on the other end when compared to Dirk, and i will disagree with that. at the highest level unless you are like last years spurs and beating teams by 20 regularly in the playoffs and finals you almost always need a guy you can depend on to carry you offensively. Its is the guys that can do that that are really rare (more rare then Tyson). KG was never that guy and always needed someone to else be.

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 03:02 PM
there is no point in us repeating ourselves. I think that when you get to the point where you are comparing greatness at some point the ability to be depended on as a team's primary scorer when needed becomes absolutely necessary. I do not think KG at any point in his career had what it took to be dependent on as the primary scorer for his team at the highest level. You can disagree or assert that KG's defensive prowess makes up for what he lacked on the other end when compared to Dirk, and i will disagree with that. at the highest level unless you are like last years spurs and beating teams by 20 regularly in the playoffs and finals you almost always need a guy you can depend on to carry you offensively. Its is the guys that can do that that are really rare (more rare then Tyson). KG was never that guy and always needed someone to else be.

KG was the leading playoff scorer in 2008 for the Celtics. When you're the teams most important/best player on D sometimes you need others to step up offensively and yet he still leads that team in scoring in playoffs.

ewing
02-27-2015, 03:16 PM
KG was the leading playoff scorer in 2008 for the Celtics. When you're the teams most important/best player on D sometimes you need others to step up offensively and yet he still leads that team in scoring in playoffs.

or you can just ignore my opinion and write something unrelated that you think strengthens yours. take care, homer.

valade16
02-27-2015, 03:28 PM
KG was the leading playoff scorer in 2008 for the Celtics. When you're the teams most important/best player on D sometimes you need others to step up offensively and yet he still leads that team in scoring in playoffs.

KG has a long history of not being aggressive enough and rising up offensively when it matters. I remember for the longest time in Minnesota that was his biggest flaw; he didn't want to take the last shot and he didn't dominate offensively when his team needed him to.

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 03:32 PM
KG was the leading playoff scorer in 2008 for the Celtics. When you're the teams most important/best player on D sometimes you need others to step up offensively and yet he still leads that team in scoring in playoffs.

yet in game 7 against the cavs it took a 41 point performance from pierce to get them past the cavs LOL Yall KG fanatics are quick to bring up his bad teammates but yet wanna forget all the times he's actually had help

ewing
02-27-2015, 03:42 PM
KG has a long history of not being aggressive enough and rising up offensively when it matters. I remember for the longest time in Minnesota that was his biggest flaw; he didn't want to take the last shot and he didn't dominate offensively when his team needed him to.


Maybe he just wasn't good enough a scorer. I brought up Parish b/c he was a great player. He deserves to be top 50 all time- its not just b/c he got the pub for being next to bird. He was going to need other guys that had another gear on the offensive end though. You can need that and be great- i just don't think you can be the 2nd best PF of all time. I don't know if KG could score or make a play for someone else on demand enough to be that type of player in those moments.

Heatcheck
02-27-2015, 04:07 PM
It is interesting that you would give Barkley the edge over someone for playoff play. If anything that qualification would make me want to put Dirk in my top 3.

Dirk doesn't come close to barkley come playoff time, give a *** how many rings he has. Barkley was a terror come playoff time.

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 04:42 PM
Dirk doesn't come close to barkley come playoff time, give a *** how many rings he has. Barkley was a terror come playoff time.

LOL ok Dirk isn't close to barkley in the playoffs yet averages 25 & 10

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 07:18 PM
Maybe he just wasn't good enough a scorer. I brought up Parish b/c he was a great player. He deserves to be top 50 all time- its not just b/c he got the pub for being next to bird. He was going to need other guys that had another gear on the offensive end though. You can need that and be great- i just don't think you can be the 2nd best PF of all time. I don't know if KG could score or make a play for someone else on demand enough to be that type of player in those moments.

He averaged 24.2 PPG in his MVP year. He has 9 season of scoring more than 20ppg and has 10 season of having more than 4apg. He could have easily have been a 20ppg scorer during his time with Celtics but he didn't need to do that and played less minutes because he was playing on a good team. I can't believe i did spend so much time arguing with your and the other poster arguments because it's worthless. I never said KG was a better scorer than Dirk but you're making it sound like KG was just a defender. He was unstoppable in his prime while also playing intense D his entire career.

Chronz
02-27-2015, 07:19 PM
Posted this in the other thread but it applies here

I feel like you guys overate Pierce's contribution. He was awful during clutch time situations, thats partly why they underachieved vs clearly inferior opponents, the other reason being he wasn't overly productive throughout the entirety of the game/series anyways. To me its truly become one of the more overrated playoff campaigns, just cuz it had some signature moments against Kobe/Bron doesnt make it a great run. It makes it memorable. The way he came out of that Finals was awesome to see, hella cocky after years of missing the playoffs, shaming Team USA in FIBA play, then claiming to be the best in the world. Bravo. KG saved his career, you dont see anyone ranking Pierce ahead of KG despite that F.MVP.

ewing
02-27-2015, 09:14 PM
He averaged 24.2 PPG in his MVP year. He has 9 season of scoring more than 20ppg and has 10 season of having more than 4apg. He could have easily have been a 20ppg scorer during his time with Celtics but he didn't need to do that and played less minutes because he was playing on a good team. I can't believe i did spend so much time arguing with your and the other poster arguments because it's worthless. I never said KG was a better scorer than Dirk but you're making it sound like KG was just a defender. He was unstoppable in his prime while also playing intense D his entire career.


you keep arguing with yourself. I never said KG was just a defensive player and never would. I said I do not think KG at any point in his career had what it took to be dependent on as the primary scorer for his team at the highest level I do not think KG was an unstoppable force on demand. I do think Dirk was a guy in his prime that you could more easily build a contender around. I think that makes Dirk a better all time great

ewing
02-27-2015, 09:27 PM
Posted this in the other thread but it applies here

I feel like you guys overate Pierce's contribution. He was awful during clutch time situations, thats partly why they underachieved vs clearly inferior opponents, the other reason being he wasn't overly productive throughout the entirety of the game/series anyways. To me its truly become one of the more overrated playoff campaigns, just cuz it had some signature moments against Kobe/Bron doesnt make it a great run. It makes it memorable. The way he came out of that Finals was awesome to see, hella cocky after years of missing the playoffs, shaming Team USA in FIBA play, then claiming to be the best in the world. Bravo. KG saved his career, you dont see anyone ranking Pierce ahead of KG despite that F.MVP.

that's the point. To be the 2nd greatest PF of all time you need some of those moments. . some moments count more then others

leprechaun5
02-27-2015, 09:47 PM
you keep arguing with yourself. I never said KG was just a defensive player and never would. I said I do not think KG at any point in his career had what it took to be dependent on as the primary scorer for his team at the highest level I do not think KG was an unstoppable force on demand. I do think Dirk was a guy in his prime that you could more easily build a contender around. I think that makes Dirk a better all time great

He was the main scorer and the go to guy on most of his teams. His 2004 run was great (game 7 vs Kings, as i said earlier one of the greatest playoff performances ever). Just to add something, people tend to overlook how much energy defense takes out of you, especially the type of defense KG has played throughout his career. Dirk is great but he never played defense, in fact he was a liability his entire career on that end and that's the main reason that there's no way i put someone ahead of KG except for Duncan.

Thumper 88
02-27-2015, 10:00 PM
:laugh: this guy

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 10:01 PM
He was the main scorer and the go to guy on most of his teams. His 2004 run was great (game 7 vs Kings, as i said earlier one of the greatest playoff performances ever). Just to add something, people tend to overlook how much energy defense takes out of you, especially the type of defense KG has played throughout his career. Dirk is great but he never played defense, in fact he was a liability his entire career on that end and that's the main reason that there's no way i put someone ahead of KG except for Duncan.

Dirk was a liability for his first couple of yrs. Once Avery Johnson came he's been decent on that end and I'll take a clutch/go to scorer over a defensive anchor any day because those are much harder to find. Kg is more of a 2nd option than a first and idk how you take a 2nd option type player over a 1st type option type player

YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2015, 10:06 PM
Posted this in the other thread but it applies here

I feel like you guys overate Pierce's contribution. He was awful during clutch time situations, thats partly why they underachieved vs clearly inferior opponents, the other reason being he wasn't overly productive throughout the entirety of the game/series anyways. To me its truly become one of the more overrated playoff campaigns, just cuz it had some signature moments against Kobe/Bron doesnt make it a great run. It makes it memorable. The way he came out of that Finals was awesome to see, hella cocky after years of missing the playoffs, shaming Team USA in FIBA play, then claiming to be the best in the world. Bravo. KG saved his career, you dont see anyone ranking Pierce ahead of KG despite that F.MVP.

Where was Kg in those moments then if pierce's contributions were overrated? Kg wouldn't even have gotten out of the 2nd round against the Cavs if it weren't for pierce matching lebron basket for basket.

ewing
02-27-2015, 11:00 PM
He was the main scorer and the go to guy on most of his teams. His 2004 run was great (game 7 vs Kings, as i said earlier one of the greatest playoff performances ever). Just to add something, people tend to overlook how much energy defense takes out of you, especially the type of defense KG has played throughout his career. Dirk is great but he never played defense, in fact he was a liability his entire career on that end and that's the main reason that there's no way i put someone ahead of KG except for Duncan.

you mean he was playing hard. Well i concede.

YAALREADYKNO
02-28-2015, 05:49 PM
Kg is the greatest defensive PF though I'll give him that

Mr.B
03-01-2015, 06:04 AM
Dirk doesn't come close to barkley come playoff time, give a *** how many rings he has. Barkley was a terror come playoff time.

What is Barkley's career average for points and rebounds in the playoffs?

FraziersKnicks
03-01-2015, 07:31 AM
What is Barkley's career average for points and rebounds in the playoffs?

23/13/4 with 1.6 steals a game on 51% shooting.

Goose17
03-01-2015, 08:27 AM
What is Barkley's career average for points and rebounds in the playoffs?

The round mound; 23 PPG, 13 RPG, 4 APG, 1.6 SPG, FG 51%, FT 71%
Dirk Diggler; 26 PPG, 10 RPG, 2.5 APG, 1.1 SPG, FG 46%, FT 80%

Chronz
03-01-2015, 03:14 PM
Where was Kg in those moments then if pierce's contributions were overrated?
He was there, you just didn't notice it because he wasn't out there chucking. They dont get to those moments if Pierce does his job the entire game. KG was able to elevate his game come playoffs, why couldn't Pierce at least sustain his?


Kg wouldn't even have gotten out of the 2nd round against the Cavs if it weren't for pierce matching lebron basket for basket.

Pierce would've never made the playoffs much less the 2nd round if it wasn't for KG completely changing the culture in bean town so Im not sure what point you're trying to make. They obviously need each other to contend, thats why they all joined up together once Ray Allen was on board. Hell, you could argue they needed every last drop of talent considering how close they came to elimination so they dont win without Rondo, Perk, PJ Brown and Posey IMO. And its mostly because Pierce struggled so often relative to his regular season level of play.

As memorable of a game your example was (I had it as a sig in another board for years), it was still only 1 game. In the prior 6 games, he was putting up 15.8 on a measly 36%. He was defending Bron great that series but I dont think anyone would dare claim Pierce was more integral to Boston's defense than KG. That Cleveland team had very little outside of Bron and Big Z.

YAALREADYKNO
03-01-2015, 07:08 PM
He was there, you just didn't notice it because he wasn't out there chucking. They dont get to those moments if Pierce does his job the entire game. KG was able to elevate his game come playoffs, why couldn't Pierce at least sustain his?


Pierce would've never made the playoffs much less the 2nd round if it wasn't for KG completely changing the culture in bean town so Im not sure what point you're trying to make. They obviously need each other to contend, thats why they all joined up together once Ray Allen was on board. Hell, you could argue they needed every last drop of talent considering how close they came to elimination so they dont win without Rondo, Perk, PJ Brown and Posey IMO. And its mostly because Pierce struggled so often relative to his regular season level of play.

As memorable of a game your example was (I had it as a sig in another board for years), it was still only 1 game. In the prior 6 games, he was putting up 15.8 on a measly 36%. He was defending Bron great that series but I dont think anyone would dare claim Pierce was more integral to Boston's defense than KG. That Cleveland team had very little outside of Bron and Big Z.

It was only one game but it was a game 7 that saved the celtics and one more game than What Kg had in those playoffs lol. Nobody is saying Kg didnt play a huge part because his defense was a huge huge reason why the C's won and had a great yr but everyone wants to just gloss over what pierce did for the celtics and what he meant for that team. They would've probably lost game 1 of the finals if pierce didnt hit those two 3's to give them the lead for good. KG's defense was important but at the end of the day those games were still close and Pierce was the one who would usually close the game for the celtics. The cavs had nothing outside of Lebron and Big Z and almost beat the C's in boston but didn't because why? KG's defense? That played a part into that game 7 win but if it wasn't for pierce matching LeBron basket for basket it would be a whole different story.

ewing
03-01-2015, 08:20 PM
If there is anything i am going to remember in 20 years about the 08 celts its KG's not shooting n culture changing presence. legend

G_S_W
03-03-2015, 12:50 AM
KG is the superior two way player compared to Dirk, but Dirk is the superior outside shooter, better scorer in the clutch and has been healthier in the latter stages of his career. It's pretty amazing that Dirk has been so consistently excellent and stayed with one team his entire career.

In their respective primes, I pick KG. In terms of overall career, Dirk.

As far as Karl Malone and Barkley are concerned, they both had the distinct misfortune of competing against a prime Jordan for championships.

afox
03-03-2015, 03:31 PM
Duncan then Petit then ...Im a KG fan but Malone...?

ewing
03-03-2015, 04:35 PM
I would honestly start a team with a prime Dirk, Chuck. Timmy, Mailman, or Paul Gasol before KG

YAALREADYKNO
03-03-2015, 05:07 PM
I would honestly start a team with a prime Dirk, Chuck. Timmy, Mailman, or Paul Gasol before KG

Gasol??? really?

YAALREADYKNO
03-03-2015, 05:08 PM
Duncan then Petit then ...Im a KG fan but Malone...?

Duncan
Dirk
KG
Malone
Barkley

YAALREADYKNO
03-03-2015, 05:08 PM
question for yall. Would yall rather take Dirk or isiah Thomas and why?

ewing
03-03-2015, 05:11 PM
Gasol??? really?


Pau did a hell of a lot more with the Griz then KG did with the wolves.

andy2518
03-03-2015, 05:18 PM
Malone keep getting disrespected.

ewing
03-03-2015, 05:30 PM
question for yall. Would yall rather take Dirk or isiah Thomas and why?

Dirk. It hard to compare a guy 7 foot to a guy 6 foot but I think Dirk was just a more special player. He was a 7 foot go to guy inside and out. Isiah made your d collapse with an insane handle and speed. Dirk could do it by sticking his hand up and calling for the ball. This a hard one for me though, I remember those Piston teams, i remember specific games, series, etc but its really at the very beginning of my basketball experience

flea
03-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Pau did a hell of a lot more with the Griz then KG did with the wolves.

Pau's 08, 09, and 10 postseasons compare very favorably to Garnett's 08 - and he did it 3 times. I think the repeat by Pau is more impressive than Garnett's lone run, and the numbers like it better.

leprechaun5
03-03-2015, 07:03 PM
ahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahah aha

looka09
03-03-2015, 07:14 PM
Garnett, talent wise, number 1

Shlumpledink
03-03-2015, 07:33 PM
Give me Duncan then KG then Dirk

I can't put Barkley over Dirk because of the lack of defense that Barkley plays. Dirk at least puts some effort into it. Malone and Barkley are close in my mind because of the overall game of Malone vs the Offensive and rebounding dominance of barkley.

Duncan and KG are 2 and 3 all time defensively, with Rodman being 1.

ewing
03-03-2015, 07:52 PM
Pau's 08, 09, and 10 postseasons compare very favorably to Garnett's 08 - and he did it 3 times. I think the repeat by Pau is more impressive than Garnett's lone run, and the numbers like it better.



and he won close to 50 3 times with the Griz- those teams sucked, everyone talks about how little KG had. Gasol was a monster on the offensive side of the ball. For a time he had the best footwork and was the best passer out the post. KG was a great cog. His numbers are greater then his impact. He never made defensive collapse, never was an unstoppable scorer, or great creator for teammates. He was a good offensive player and great defensive player but he wasn't a rim protector like Zo or Deke and wasn't shut down wing like Bowen or Leonard so even where he was at his best to really shine most of the time he needed great teammates. I'll take a prime Gasol over KG to start my team any day.

PowerHouse
03-03-2015, 09:23 PM
Pau did a hell of a lot more with the Griz then KG did with the wolves.

So Gasol's WS/48 should be higher than KG right?

Gasol w/ Grizz - .155
KG w/ Wolves - .187


Why don't you just look up who was the most efficient?

Okay I will.

Gasol w/ Grizz PER - 21.7
KG w/ Wolves PER - 23.8


and he won close to 50 3 times with the Griz- those teams sucked, everyone talks about how little KG had. Gasol was a monster on the offensive side of the ball. For a time he had the best footwork and was the best passer out the post. KG was a great cog. His numbers are greater then his impact. He never made defensive collapse, never was an unstoppable scorer, or great creator for teammates. He was a good offensive player and great defensive player but he wasn't a rim protector like Zo or Deke and wasn't shut down wing like Bowen or Leonard so even where he was at his best to really shine most of the time he needed great teammates. I'll take a prime Gasol over KG to start my team any day.

So since Gasol was the only star on those teams and was an "offensive monster" he must have had some high scoring averages. He actually never scored more than 20.7 ppg in any of those seasons. KG had 9 years in a row better than that with the Wolves.

ewing
03-03-2015, 09:32 PM
So Gasol's WS/48 should be higher than KG right?

Gasol w/ Grizz - .155
KG w/ Wolves - .187

not necessarily



Okay I will.

Gasol w/ Grizz PER - 21.7
KG w/ Wolves PER - 23.8

you are not good at scarasm



So since Gasol was the only star on those teams and was an "offensive monster" he must have had some high scoring averages. He actually never scored more than 20.7 ppg in any of those seasons. KG had 9 years in a row better than that with the Wolves.

You don't seem to know what offensive is. KG is the most overrated player of this generation. He was a stat sheet stuffer whose real impact paled next to his numbers. A HOFer sure but never the best at his spot much less the best in the league

PowerHouse
03-03-2015, 09:40 PM
You don't seem to know what offensive is.

Besides you? Yes I know what offensive is. Instead of trying to insult my intelligence to make yourself feel better, how about telling me what is a good offensive metric you like? Offensive win shares?

And I have no clue what the hell you're talking about with the sarcasm crack. Again if you dont like the metric I showed than how about offering one you think suits efficiency better?

ewing
03-03-2015, 09:44 PM
Besides you? Yes I know what offensive is. Instead of trying to insult my intelligence to make yourself feel better, how about telling me what is a good offensive metric you like? Offensive win shares?

And I have no clue what the hell you're talking about with the sarcasm crack. Again if you dont like the metric I showed than how about offering one you think suits efficiency better?

well that's ironic. just nvm man

PowerHouse
03-03-2015, 09:52 PM
well that's ironic. just nvm man

I dont think you know what ironic means. Yea nvm is probably a good call for you bro. No sense in continuing a losing battle.

ewing
03-03-2015, 09:56 PM
burn

YAALREADYKNO
03-03-2015, 10:44 PM
Gasol over KG to build a team with idk bout that one

G_S_W
03-04-2015, 01:53 AM
No love for Kevin Mchale.

FlashBolt
03-04-2015, 02:33 AM
Pau Gasol over KG... Some of you guys are really sipping that Kool Aid.

Chronz
03-04-2015, 05:01 AM
It was only one game but it was a game 7 that saved the celtics
It only saved the Celtics because he sucked so badly before that. You dont focus on just 1 game and ignore the entirety of a series. Had he done his job the way KG did, the Celtics defeat that far inferior team much sooner.


and one more game than What Kg had in those playoffs lol.
One more what? You say that as if its a tangible figure, but KG was actually FAR more productive than Pierce, so what would Pierce have more of? More struggles? Agreed.


Nobody is saying Kg didnt play a huge part because his defense was a huge huge reason why the C's won and had a great yr but everyone wants to just gloss over what pierce did for the celtics and what he meant for that team.
I dont see that. Im simply giving credit to the player most responsible. Pierce was A-OK, but its an overrated run IMO. The dude shot a horrible% in the clutch.


They would've probably lost game 1 of the finals if pierce didnt hit those two 3's to give them the lead for good. KG's defense was important but at the end of the day those games were still close and Pierce was the one who would usually close the game for the celtics.
They dont win without KG anchoring the leagues best defense either, so what exactly is your point? Nobody said they win without either of them, lets stay on topic.


The cavs had nothing outside of Lebron and Big Z and almost beat the C's in boston but didn't because why?
Because Pierce finally decided to do what KG had been doing for much longer, actually show up.

benny01
03-04-2015, 05:09 AM
It only saved the Celtics because he sucked so badly before that. You dont focus on just 1 game and ignore the entirety of a series. Had he done his job the way KG did, the Celtics defeat that far inferior team much sooner.


One more what? You say that as if its a tangible figure, but KG was actually FAR more productive than Pierce, so what would Pierce have more of? More struggles? Agreed.


I dont see that. Im simply giving credit to the player most responsible. Pierce was A-OK, but its an overrated run IMO. The dude shot a horrible% in the clutch.


They dont win without KG anchoring the leagues best defense either, so what exactly is your point? Nobody said they win without either of them, lets stay on topic.


Because Pierce finally decided to do what KG had been doing for much longer, actually show up.
Not to mention that was the antique Garnett

ewing
03-04-2015, 07:31 AM
No love for Kevin Mchale.

a very solid point. I shyed away from him b/c i was very young when i saw Kevin play

Arsy
03-04-2015, 09:37 AM
I keep hearing Dirks name what about Larry Bird.
Defensively Big Ben>KG .Was one guy you wouldn't want to drive against.
1. Timmy
2. Mail man
3. Sir Charles

ewing
03-04-2015, 09:54 AM
2008 Finals Series

TS%
Pierce .588
Allen .708
Garnett .470

eFG%
Pierce .494
Allen .658
Garnett .429

Ast %
Pierce 28.9
Allen 11.1
Garnett 15.6
Rondo 40.1

Ortg
Pierce 112
Allen 129
Garnett 99

PPG
Pierce 21.8
Allen 20.3
Garnett 18.2

KG carried this team. They were not stacked with future HOFers and excellent defensive role players

ewing
03-04-2015, 10:03 AM
KG was the best at goal tending after the whistle

ewing
03-04-2015, 10:10 AM
man did KG shut down the Dirk in 02 or what?


http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2002_WC1.html#DAL-MIN