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View Full Version : Is DeAndre Jordan A Max Player?



Clippersfan86
02-20-2015, 01:13 PM
Free agency looms for DJ after this year. He's having his 2nd straight elite year. For the first time ever without Griffin the last 4 games and he's AVERAGING 20/20/3/2 about to lead the team to 3-1 with wins against Mavs, Spurs and Rockets. Basically it's being revealed what we can do with a bigger role. If he could shoot FT's he'd be scoring 35-40 these last few games. He's putting up games/stretches not seen since Wilt apparently.

I made a thread about DJ being an all star caliber player two years ago and it was laughed off by many. Last year he was the Clippers most dominant player in the playoffs and this year has easily been the most consistent of the trio. Now he's got two great seasons on his resume and just turned 26. Is DJ worth max now? Is he a franchise cornerstone?

D-Leethal
02-20-2015, 01:15 PM
If your definition of max player is "will a team be willing to offer him the max" than he most certainly is.

Sportfan
02-20-2015, 01:18 PM
In before someone says he deserves the max because "the cap is rising"

Clippersfan86
02-20-2015, 01:26 PM
In before someone says he deserves the max because "the cap is rising"

That's legit though right? With cap rising soon, better to lock him in now at a max of say 15 mill a year when soon the max may be 20+ for first time maxes. Even so, I think without cap increase he's more deserving of the max than guys like Hayward, Eric Gordon and other tier 3 players that have been getting them like candy.

GiantsSwaGG
02-20-2015, 01:29 PM
Can someone really break down his game,

What's his strength offensivley and defensively and what are his weaknesses?

ManningToTyree
02-20-2015, 01:31 PM
Can he be the best player on a championship team? Or hell even second best?

There's your answer.

IndyRealist
02-20-2015, 01:32 PM
Is he a max player? With defense, rebounding, and athleticism, probably yes. Can you build your offense around him? No, and that's the general definition people use for "max player". The general fan was brainwashed by Jordan and Kobe to think that you have to be able to handle the ball, iso from the wing, and "get your own shot" to be the best (i.e. highest paid) player on the team. If you're not that, you need to be a post up "20-10" guy. You can't be a hustle 18-14 guy, that's not worth max. Only if you hit 20 points per game.

Clippersfan86
02-20-2015, 01:38 PM
Can he be the best player on a championship team? Or hell even second best?

There's your answer.

Does defense and rebounding count? He will never be a great offensive player. But he's been the best and most consistent Clipper this year believe it or not.

Clippersfan86
02-20-2015, 01:40 PM
Is he a max player? With defense, rebounding, and athleticism, probably yes. Can you build your offense around him? No, and that's the general definition people use for "max player". The general fan was brainwashed by Jordan and Kobe to think that you have to be able to handle the ball, iso from the wing, and "get your own shot" to be the best (i.e. highest paid) player on the team. If you're not that, you need to be a post up "20-10" guy. You can't be a hustle 18-14 guy, that's not worth max. Only if you hit 20 points per game.

Pretty much. How did that turn out for Dallas letting Chandler walk? Or Detroit when they let Ben Wallace go to Chicago?

nycericanguy
02-20-2015, 01:49 PM
Free agency looms for DJ after this year. He's having his 2nd straight elite year. For the first time ever without Griffin the last 4 games and he's AVERAGING 20/20/3/2 about to lead the team to 3-1 with wins against Mavs, Spurs and Rockets. Basically it's being revealed what we can do with a bigger role. If he could shoot FT's he'd be scoring 35-40 these last few games. He's putting up games/stretches not seen since Wilt apparently.

I made a thread about DJ being an all star caliber player two years ago and it was laughed off by many. Last year he was the Clippers most dominant player in the playoffs and this year has easily been the most consistent of the trio. Now he's got two great seasons on his resume and just turned 26. Is DJ worth max now? Is he a franchise cornerstone?

No and ABSOLUTELY NOT... but we all know he'll get it.

Let's face it, any above average player that is young gets a MAX these days. Salary rules are completely broken and I hope it's fixed in the next CBA.

Take away max contracts but keep the cap.

Goose17
02-20-2015, 01:53 PM
Max contracts are more about the following;

- What have players of a similar level received within the last season during negotiations.

- How important is he to the current team.


The latter is simple to me. DJ might not be worth a team like Memphis giving him a max (definitely not) but it makes sense for the Clips imo.

The former is a little more complicated. I can't think of a player with a similar talent level who plays in the same position that signed a contract last offseason.

I will say this though, if the Clippers want to keep him they better be willing to spend because someone will offer him a max. Don't be surprised if the Knicks make a splash.

nycericanguy
02-20-2015, 01:55 PM
Max contracts are more about the following;

- What have players of a similar level received within the last season during negotiations.

- How important is he to the current team.


The latter is simple to me. DJ might not be worth a team like Memphis giving him a max (definitely not) but it makes sense for the Clips imo.

The former is a little more complicated. I can't think of a player with a similar talent level who plays in the same position that signed a contract last offseason.

I will say this though, if the Clippers want to keep him they better be willing to spend because someone will offer him a max. Don't be surprised if the Knicks make a splash.

No way... DJ is just about the worst fit for the triangle you could imagine. No post game and can't pass. And you wonder how he'd look without CP3 over a full season.

Nice player, but let the Clips keep him, like you said he's probably worth max to them b/c they can't afford to lose him and he already fits with them, but to other teams probably not.

Goose17
02-20-2015, 01:56 PM
Also you're paying for what they will become (or you hope they'll become) not what they did this year. IMO.

I mean look at Klay. People scoffed at the idea of giving an exclusively 3 and D player a near max deal. Then he went and improved his game in a multitude of ways and became arguably the second best shooting guard in the league.

ewing
02-20-2015, 02:28 PM
no, but i could see giving it to him making sense in certain situations.

Redrum187
02-20-2015, 02:49 PM
He is overrated on defense though. I would just say he's average to above average. I wouldn't go anywhere near him with the max if I had a team. I'd save that for legitimate 2 way players who won't be a tremendous liability when it comes to shooting FTs.

Having said that, I think some franchises will definitely offer him that much. Look at Dragic and the projected 100mil dollar deal he might get. Is it wise? Probably not.

Chronz
02-20-2015, 03:04 PM
The question is, is he more valuable offensively than the likes of vucevic

D-Leethal
02-20-2015, 03:22 PM
Is he a max player? With defense, rebounding, and athleticism, probably yes. Can you build your offense around him? No, and that's the general definition people use for "max player". The general fan was brainwashed by Jordan and Kobe to think that you have to be able to handle the ball, iso from the wing, and "get your own shot" to be the best (i.e. highest paid) player on the team. If you're not that, you need to be a post up "20-10" guy. You can't be a hustle 18-14 guy, that's not worth max. Only if you hit 20 points per game.

So the general fan is the person shelling out these max contracts now? That makes sense...

The max player market is dictated by NBA GM decision making, not "general brainwashed fan" consensus.

D-Leethal
02-20-2015, 03:30 PM
The question is, is he more valuable offensively than the likes of vucevic

Not playing next to Blake Griffin, but if you need a go-to guy and somebody more than a garbage man down low than its not really a question.

Chronz
02-20-2015, 03:49 PM
Not playing next to Blake Griffin, but if you need a go-to guy and somebody more than a garbage man down low than its not really a question.

Im not too sure there are many of those situations anymore. Go-to guy is too vague of a descriptor, I think it depends on the skill curve(usage capability) of each teams respective players. I get what you're saying but should the goal really be to strive for mediocrity? Cuz thats what I think such a player lands on most situations.

DJ has raised his usage% by 6PTS since Blake's been gone and IIRC, thats been pretty consistent with his +/- in years past. I dont think its sustainable for an entire year but I think hes played well enough to hush any whispers of over reliance to said players. I think a rim rusher with his kind of efficiency opens the game up more than a post presence like Vuce. I could be wrong, maybe he attracts more attention than I realize but I think it shows us the importance of warping defenses moreso than actually scoring.


Im starting to rethink just how much I value efficiency, it might be even more important than I thought before, then again, its just a regular season stretch, DJ has looked great and declined when the playoffs exposed his lack of skill. Im not gonna lie and say Im not biased here, I REALLY want this to be the DJ I see for the next 5 years. And to think he was a 2nd round pick. Loved the selection at the time.

Still, its more of a conversation than you think.

IndyRealist
02-20-2015, 04:46 PM
So the general fan is the person shelling out these max contracts now? That makes sense...

The max player market is dictated by NBA GM decision making, not "general brainwashed fan" consensus.
What are you even talking about? The question "Is DeAndre Jordan a max player?" is directed at PSDers, i.e. fans, not NBA GMs. Your problem is with the whole premise of the thread then, asking fans if they think Jordan is worth the max.

GMs have given rim protectors max. Fans immediately say they are overpaid.

kingsdelez24
02-20-2015, 05:01 PM
He's a terrible one-on-one defender in the post. And will always be offensively limited.

Its a little bit like watching Wilt Chamberlain without much basketball I.Q on the offensive end

JEDean89
02-20-2015, 05:07 PM
They'll extend him to the max. 20 mil post cap is like 14 now, he's worth more than that so it's a good deal, he and blake are bff's and he loves LA. he aint going nowhere. The Clipps should extend him and wait til 2016 to throw an offer at Durant when everyone has max space.

Chronz
02-20-2015, 05:31 PM
He's a terrible one-on-one defender in the post. And will always be offensively limited.

Its a little bit like watching Wilt Chamberlain without much basketball I.Q on the offensive end

Theres a nuance to running the PnR, its a tireless, thankless job when you attract as much attention as he does. I wouldn't say DJ is without basketball IQ, he just lacks a soft touch and any semblance of skill in the post. You could chop that up to a lack of IQ but I think hes incredibly smart for understanding his limitations. There are stars that dont even know their place.

But yeah, its like watching Wilt without the passing instincts and defensive timing. Hes still young tho, I do believe he can become an elite defender, to his credit, hes carrying absolutely limited teammates and a much heavier minutes load than most anchors.

L8kers4life
02-20-2015, 05:45 PM
Free agency looms for DJ after this year. He's having his 2nd straight elite year. For the first time ever without Griffin the last 4 games and he's AVERAGING 20/20/3/2 about to lead the team to 3-1 with wins against Mavs, Spurs and Rockets. Basically it's being revealed what we can do with a bigger role. If he could shoot FT's he'd be scoring 35-40 these last few games. He's putting up games/stretches not seen since Wilt apparently.

I made a thread about DJ being an all star caliber player two years ago and it was laughed off by many. Last year he was the Clippers most dominant player in the playoffs and this year has easily been the most consistent of the trio. Now he's got two great seasons on his resume and just turned 26. Is DJ worth max now? Is he a franchise cornerstone?

First off, even before this stretch, he is a max player. He is probably the defensive player of the year, one of the best rebounder in the league and he is one of the best centers in the league. Now that you are seeing what he can do with out Blake you are seeing he is very capable on offense. There will be many teams that will offer him the max, at this point he is already better than Dwight.

Goose17
02-20-2015, 06:44 PM
No way... DJ is just about the worst fit for the triangle you could imagine. No post game and can't pass. And you wonder how he'd look without CP3 over a full season.

Nice player, but let the Clips keep him, like you said he's probably worth max to them b/c they can't afford to lose him and he already fits with them, but to other teams probably not.

LOL don't tell me Phil is still desperately clinging onto running the triangle?

Enjoy being a bottom seed again next year. Unless he brings in an entire new roster obviously.

nycericanguy
02-20-2015, 07:02 PM
LOL don't tell me Phil is still desperately clinging onto running the triangle?

Enjoy being a bottom seed again next year. Unless he brings in an entire new roster obviously.

wtf?...:confused: really dude?

D-Leethal
02-20-2015, 07:07 PM
Theres a nuance to running the PnR, its a tireless, thankless job when you attract as much attention as he does. I wouldn't say DJ is without basketball IQ, he just lacks a soft touch and any semblance of skill in the post. You could chop that up to a lack of IQ but I think hes incredibly smart for understanding his limitations. There are stars that dont even know their place.

But yeah, its like watching Wilt without the passing instincts and defensive timing. Hes still young tho, I do believe he can become an elite defender, to his credit, hes carrying absolutely limited teammates and a much heavier minutes load than most anchors.

Do the Clips max him out if it takes that to keep him in your eyes? Do you see him walking?

Goose17
02-20-2015, 07:17 PM
wtf?...:confused: really dude?

Yes really. That team does not have the personnel required to run the triangle efficiently. Sorry.

Phil is obsessed with forcing a system onto players who don't fit it instead of designing a system around the skillset of the roster. He's stubborn as hell.

But that's just my opinion.

SteveNash
02-20-2015, 07:25 PM
No chance.

Chronz
02-20-2015, 07:51 PM
Hes getting the max and everyone will hope his resurgence isn't motivated by contract glory. (I highly doubt thats the case)

TheNumber37
02-20-2015, 08:05 PM
He should be payed 12-14 million per year

Curry's contract is 4 years 48 mil.. everyone should be reminded of that every time they push for more money

D-Leethal
02-20-2015, 08:08 PM
Yes really. That team does not have the personnel required to run the triangle efficiently. Sorry.

Phil is obsessed with forcing a system onto players who don't fit it instead of designing a system around the skillset of the roster. He's stubborn as hell.

But that's just my opinion.

We are going to have a brand new team next year. Our lottery pick + free agents will make up our starting lineup. Our current roster is auditioning for next years bench. How can you say we don't have the personnel when we have like 3 guys under contract next year? Phil is going to hand pick the roster and I would imagine at the very least, he knows what type of dudes will thrive in it. Not saying he's gonna get it done, but the :confused: face asking how can you say we don't have the personnel at this point in time? If you hadn't noticed, Phil cleaned the house of everything but the kitchen sink, which we will assume is Melo. Hardaway and Early might make up the pipes.

D-Leethal
02-20-2015, 08:10 PM
Hes getting the max and everyone will hope his resurgence isn't motivated by contract glory. (I highly doubt thats the case)

Agreed, and I think he deserves at least what Tyson got by us a few years back. And I think he deserves it. 4 years later (than Tyson's deal) where guys like Meeks are getting 8M, he is worth a max, and someone will certainly pay him that if the Clips don't pony up.

AIverson
02-21-2015, 12:45 AM
How much is DeAndre's max worth? I wouldn't mind having him at 15-16 mil per.

Tony_Starks
02-21-2015, 01:54 AM
Pre TV deal, yes.post, no.

rhino17
02-21-2015, 03:39 AM
I've always been VERY critical of Dre. Going to high school with him and playing with him at that age made me think he was an absolute scrub (no work ethic, no skill, pathetic teammate, etc).

That being said, he is absolutely balling right now. He is everything Dwight Howard ever was imo. If Dwight would accept that he should play like DJ, he would be so much better. He is gonna get a lot of money on his next contract and he definitely deserves it imo

sixer04fan
02-21-2015, 03:54 AM
He's ideally a 3rd best player on a contending team. Is that a max player?

FlashBolt
02-21-2015, 04:06 AM
I hate these questions because so many players get paid the maxed that we forget what the max should be paid like. If everyone is getting the max, sure, DJ is a max. Realistically, he's not close to being a max player...

KingstonHawke
02-21-2015, 05:36 AM
Can someone really break down his game,

What's his strength offensivley and defensively and what are his weaknesses?

Extraordinary rim protector, rebounder, and finisher when dunking is an option. Great athlete who runs in transition, average ball defender, horrible shooter, but a strong enough IQ (or maybe it's Paul and Rivers') that he plays towards his strengths.

He's only 26 and still hasn't reached his ceiling. But he has a history of being an underachiever. Was a big time recruit coming out of high school in Houston. Underwhelmed and acted out at Texas A&M, fell to the second round. Until recently has spent his whole career driving coaches crazy and in trade discussions.

MrfadeawayJB
02-21-2015, 11:02 AM
Am I the only one that thinks his already limited offensive game takes a huge hit if he leaves the likes of CP3? He needs to play with a pg that can throw lob passes. I just remember chandler being super ineffective on the offensive end after leaving Paul, then coming back to form with j Kidd in Dallas.

D-Leethal
02-21-2015, 11:28 AM
He should be payed 12-14 million per year

Curry's contract is 4 years 48 mil.. everyone should be reminded of that every time they push for more money

Market shifts my friend. Its been on a huge upswing since Curry signed that contract. Dragic is also eligible to make more than Curry since he has been in the league a fair amount longer.

ManningToTyree
02-21-2015, 12:01 PM
Can he be the best player on a championship team? Or hell even second best?

There's your answer.

Does defense and rebounding count? He will never be a great offensive player. But he's been the best and most consistent Clipper this year believe it or not. of course that counts. Do you think he can be the best player on a title team?

IndyRealist
02-21-2015, 12:01 PM
Am I the only one that thinks his already limited offensive game takes a huge hit if he leaves the likes of CP3? He needs to play with a pg that can throw lob passes. I just remember chandler being super ineffective on the offensive end after leaving Paul, then coming back to form with j Kidd in Dallas.

That could be system as much as anything. A lot of teams (like my Pacers) never option lobs and fast breaks are almost always finished by the ballhandler. That does not leave a lot of opportunities for a guy like Chandler. Our system is predicated on bigs posting up or spacing for jumpers.

YAALREADYKNO
02-21-2015, 12:45 PM
well it seems like everyone can get a max these days so yeah why not?

c.c.
02-21-2015, 12:56 PM
In today's NBA damn near every starter is Max Material

FOXHOUND
02-21-2015, 01:01 PM
I think an issue with this discussion is the perception of what max player is. Too many people hear max and think well, can he be the best player on a championship team? Well no, he can't, but that's not how it works either. Max contracts are not created equal, they are a percentage of the BRI based on years of service and achievements like All-NBA, All-Star teams and MVPs. So, if you asking whether or not he should be making $20M per year under the current CBA? Of course not, but that's reserved for players who have played 7+ years and have made a certain amount of All-NBA/All-Star teams, otherwise it's impossible to offer a player a contract like that to begin with.

Right now DeAndre Jordan is 26, and this year will be his 7th year of service. That is a big deal, because that YOS mark is the milestone for the first big percentage jump. A player who has played less than 7 years can have a max of 25% of basketball related income, or 105% more than the last year on their previous deal. If they have completed 7 years, but less than 10, they are eligible for 30% of BRI. BUT, there is a criteria that needs to be matched for that 30%. You need 7-10 YOS, but you also need;

In a player's first four seasons, they need to achieve one of these feats,
A) Be voted to the All-NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd team at least two times
B) Be voted to the All-Star game at least two times
C) Be named NBA MVP at least once

Looking at DeAndre Jordan's career, he has not won MVP, he has not been named to an All-NBA team and he has not been voted an All-Star. So unless he wins MVP this season, he will not be eligible for that 30%. EDIT: I forgot it's first four seasons, so Jordan can never make 30% of the cap. That's how and why it's reserved for special players.

His max is 25% of the BRI, which for 2014-15 is $58.984, which means his year 1 max salary would be $14.75M.

So the question is, is DeAndre Jordan worth a contract that starts at $14.75M? The answer to that, even without the new CBA/money coming in for 2016 which will make this contract infinitely more valuable as a result, is a resounding yes. Market dictates value, and the value of big men is always higher than the average player. Consider the fact that Marcin Gortat is 31 and is currently playing on a deal that pays him an average of $12M until 2019. Just an example, but one that easily shows how Jordan will be offered the max, and that the Clippers will gladly match that offer.

FOXHOUND
02-21-2015, 01:03 PM
well it seems like everyone can get a max these days so yeah why not?

A lot of that is teams understanding the influx of money and cap that's going to occur in 2016. It's just smart business to lock up Klay Thompson or Gordon Hayward at $14.75M when in 2016 a max contract for a player in the same situation will start at $20M/year.

Vinylman
02-21-2015, 02:41 PM
The thing everyone is missing on the influx of money relative to the cap is that players like lebron and others are gonna push to eliminate the cap on max contracts... when the new CBA hits i won't be shocked if a player like Lebron is taking up 50-60% of the cap... thats when the talk of who a max player is will be relevant.

the nba limits the salaries of top stars so they can spread the wealth to people like DeAndre Jordan

nycericanguy
02-21-2015, 02:50 PM
I think an issue with this discussion is the perception of what max player is. Too many people hear max and think well, can he be the best player on a championship team? Well no, he can't, but that's not how it works either. Max contracts are not created equal, they are a percentage of the BRI based on years of service and achievements like All-NBA, All-Star teams and MVPs. So, if you asking whether or not he should be making $20M per year under the current CBA? Of course not, but that's reserved for players who have played 7+ years and have made a certain amount of All-NBA/All-Star teams, otherwise it's impossible to offer a player a contract like that to begin with.

Right now DeAndre Jordan is 26, and this year will be his 7th year of service. That is a big deal, because that YOS mark is the milestone for the first big percentage jump. A player who has played less than 7 years can have a max of 25% of basketball related income, or 105% more than the last year on their previous deal. If they have completed 7 years, but less than 10, they are eligible for 30% of BRI. BUT, there is a criteria that needs to be matched for that 30%. You need 7-10 YOS, but you also need;

In a player's first four seasons, they need to achieve one of these feats,
A) Be voted to the All-NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd team at least two times
B) Be voted to the All-Star game at least two times
C) Be named NBA MVP at least once

Looking at DeAndre Jordan's career, he has not won MVP, he has not been named to an All-NBA team and he has not been voted an All-Star. So unless he wins MVP this season, he will not be eligible for that 30%. EDIT: I forgot it's first four seasons, so Jordan can never make 30% of the cap. That's how and why it's reserved for special players.

His max is 25% of the BRI, which for 2014-15 is $58.984, which means his year 1 max salary would be $14.75M.

So the question is, is DeAndre Jordan worth a contract that starts at $14.75M? The answer to that, even without the new CBA/money coming in for 2016 which will make this contract infinitely more valuable as a result, is a resounding yes. Market dictates value, and the value of big men is always higher than the average player. Consider the fact that Marcin Gortat is 31 and is currently playing on a deal that pays him an average of $12M until 2019. Just an example, but one that easily shows how Jordan will be offered the max, and that the Clippers will gladly match that offer.

This is all interesting stuff... Do you have a link to it?

I was under the impression that Marc Gasol for instance was eligible for a max of 30% of the cap next year which means his max would start at 19.9m.

But going by your criteria, Marc has only made ALL NBA team once, never won MVP and only made ASG this year. So does that mean he would only be eligible for 25% max? Which if the cap is 66.5m next year would be a max starting at 16.6m. Is this correct?

Same for Dragic?

RLundi
02-21-2015, 03:09 PM
No, not at all. That 20/20 line is impressive but not only is it a small sample size, but DJ would not keep up this season's efficiency were it not for playing with an elite PG like Chris Paul.

I consider him in the same ballpark as prime Tyson Chandler- a game changer for sure but very dependent on other people to make him even the least bit serviceable.

Someone MAY give him the max but lots of players get contracts they certainly don't deserve. I'd be very pissed if my team offered him a contract at more than $13-14M a year, let's put it that way.

FOXHOUND
02-21-2015, 03:29 PM
This is all interesting stuff... Do you have a link to it?

I was under the impression that Marc Gasol for instance was eligible for a max of 30% of the cap next year which means his max would start at 19.9m.

But going by your criteria, Marc has only made ALL NBA team once, never won MVP and only made ASG this year. So does that mean he would only be eligible for 25% max? Which if the cap is 66.5m next year would be a max starting at 16.6m. Is this correct?

Same for Dragic?

Sure thing, from the NBA

http://www.nba.com/media/CBA101.pdf

As a fellow Knicks fan, I am also very interested in this situation lol. From this PDF from the NBA, it seems like they are not eligible for the 30%, but all the media people are saying those figures you listed so I'm not exactly sure what to believe.

Larry Coon is the cap expert, we need to look up if he's touched on this at all.

IndyRealist
02-21-2015, 03:38 PM
Sure thing, from the NBA

http://www.nba.com/media/CBA101.pdf

As a fellow Knicks fan, I am also very interested in this situation lol. From this PDF from the NBA, it seems like they are not eligible for the 30%, but all the media people are saying those figures you listed so I'm not exactly sure what to believe.

Larry Coon is the cap expert, we need to look up if he's touched on this at all.

This is Coon's site: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16

FOXHOUND
02-21-2015, 03:41 PM
This is Coon's site: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16

Yeah, he notes the same qualification in his. Maybe the media is overlooking that footnote?

Seems like Gasol and Dragic aren't actually eligible for the 5th Year 30% Max as he listed. At the same time, there is the 105% rule, so Gasol would start higher than 25% since he's making $15.8M this season. 105% of $15.8M is about $16.6M, rather than the $19.9M 30% max the media has been throwing out there.

nycericanguy
02-21-2015, 03:53 PM
Yeah, he notes the same qualification in his. Maybe the media is overlooking that footnote?

Seems like Gasol and Dragic aren't actually eligible for the 5th Year 30% Max as he listed. At the same time, there is the 105% rule, so Gasol would start higher than 25% since he's making $15.8M this season. 105% of $15.8M is about $16.6M, rather than the $19.9M 30% max the media has been throwing out there.

Ok some clarification. Those qualifications you listed only apply to guys who have less than 6 years experience but still want the 30% max.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2012-07-13/Derrick-Rose-gets-rule-in-new-NBA-CBA/56188340/1

So basically if they achieve the qualifications then they can get 30% max early like Rose did. But otherwise they have to wait until they have 7+ years experience.

So yea Marc & Dragic and Jordan all are eligible for 30% max deals next year starting at $19.9m

Would love to be wrong about this though!

FOXHOUND
02-21-2015, 04:09 PM
Ok some clarification. Those qualifications you listed only apply to guys who have less than 6 years experience but still want the 30% max.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2012-07-13/Derrick-Rose-gets-rule-in-new-NBA-CBA/56188340/1

So basically if they achieve the qualifications then they can get 30% max early like Rose did. But otherwise they have to wait until they have 7+ years experience.

So yea Marc & Dragic and Jordan all are eligible for 30% max deals next year starting at $19.9m

Would love to be wrong about this though!

Oh dammit :(

Well, in that case, I retract my statement and say that Jordan isn't worth the max lol. Although with 2016 around the corner, it's possible some team may offer it I guess.

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 12:05 AM
DJ has 9 points and 15 rebounds against Cousins with 3 minutes left in 2nd quarter. DOMINANT lately.

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 12:07 AM
Oh dammit :(

Well, in that case, I retract my statement and say that Jordan isn't worth the max lol. Although with 2016 around the corner, it's possible some team may offer it I guess.

You made a great point and a couple extra mill a year, doesn't mean it's worth retracting IMO. If we go by WS/48 I think DJ is the 10th highest ranked in league for players who play significant minutes.

FlashBolt
02-22-2015, 04:57 AM
Truly Max Players
-LeBron
-Curry
-Harden
-Davis
-Durant
-Westbrook
-CP3
-PG
-LA

Anyone making max outside of those players is completely b.s. I put PG there because this guy has so much potential and IMO, would have been a top 5 player had he not been injured. With Stephenson gone, it wouldn't be farfetched to say that he would be leading his team to a top five seed.

GiantsSwaGG
02-22-2015, 10:23 AM
DJ has 9 points and 15 rebounds against Cousins with 3 minutes left in 2nd quarter. DOMINANT lately.

Yet he finish the game with 11 pts and 15 rebounds

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 10:41 AM
No, I don't think he's worth a max contract. Jordan is essentially an even more extreme version of Tyson Chandler offensively the last few years. Hyper efficient around the basket with no post game or offensive presence outside of five feet. He's also an excellent rebounder and shot blocker and above average, albeit slightly overrated, on the defensive end.

He's definitely worth of an eight-digit per year contract, but since he's at that 7-year cutoff mark, if you give him a max you'd be paying him $17.6 million this season with an increase each year. And that number will go up with whatever the cap increases to in the offseason. Do you REALLY want to pay DeAndre Jordan $18 million-$20 million over four or five years? I certainly wouldn't want to. But I'd be okay with a contract around $13 million-$15 million per year.

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 10:45 AM
Truly Max Players
-LeBron
-Curry
-Harden
-Davis
-Durant
-Westbrook
-CP3
-PG
-LA

Anyone making max outside of those players is completely b.s. I put PG there because this guy has so much potential and IMO, would have been a top 5 player had he not been injured. With Stephenson gone, it wouldn't be farfetched to say that he would be leading his team to a top five seed.

I'm sorry, but this is a tad delusional. The NBA doesn't work that way. Pretty much any team that gets a top 25-30 guy and doesn't want to lose him is going to pay a max contract. But I will agree that there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, paying near max dollars to Chandler Parsons last offseason was probably an overpay. And giving max money to Jordan would certainly be an overpay in my book.

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 11:13 AM
Yet he finish the game with 11 pts and 15 rebounds

In 21 minutes played.

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 11:15 AM
Mighty so you don't think Jordan is better/more valuable than Chandler Parsons or Gordon Hayward etc? His statistics place him a full tier or two higher. As I said his metrics make a case for him as a top 10 player arguably.

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 11:52 AM
Mighty so you don't think Jordan is better/more valuable than Chandler Parsons or Gordon Hayward etc? His statistics place him a full tier or two higher. As I said his metrics make a case for him as a top 10 player arguably.

Parsons? Yes. Hayward? No. But I actually thought both of them and Thompson were overpays when they first got their contracts. Hayward and Thompson have earned their money so far this season and lived up to that hype. Parsons has not.

But I think you're looking at the wrong players to determine market value. Those three guys are young, versatile two-way wings that their teams are hoping develop into No. 1 or No. 2 caliber players. Jordan will never be a No. 1 or a No. 2 caliber guy, so if you're paying for anything, you're paying for him not hurting you on offense and earning his paycheck on defense.

A better comparison (like I mentioned earlier) would be Tyson Chandler, who was probably a better defensive player at his peak than Jordan. But they're at least similar player statistically and on offense. Chandler did sign a max contract back in 2011. However, that turned out to be a bad deal for New York. Not only did Chandler get injured too much over the course of that contract, but he didn't really show up in the playoffs, and he was pretty inconsistent between seasons. Also, the max was a lot less back then, because the salary cap was smaller.

I would be fine with him getting similar money to what Chandler got, which would hover around $14 million a season, even if I don't necessarily think he'll ever live up to that contract. But a max for Jordan would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $18 million-$19 million a season. If I were a GM, I don't think I could justify giving that guy that much money.

Vee-Rex
02-22-2015, 12:13 PM
Truly Max Players
-LeBron
-Curry
-Harden
-Davis
-Durant
-Westbrook
-CP3
-PG
-LA

Anyone making max outside of those players is completely b.s. I put PG there because this guy has so much potential and IMO, would have been a top 5 player had he not been injured. With Stephenson gone, it wouldn't be farfetched to say that he would be leading his team to a top five seed.

No Blake Griffin or Demarcus Cousins or Carmelo Anthony?

I think this is an entirely subjective topic anyway, since there are lots of players who are borderline max players that will be signed to max contracts to keep them from leaving. I'd rather pay someone like Whiteside or Mozgov cheap money than give a max contract to Deandre Jordan, but that's just me.

Edit: So if I were the Clippers, I'd let Jordan go before paying him the max. I can understand why they'd consider paying it to him but it's not like they're winning rings and stuff with him. Move on.

GiantsSwaGG
02-22-2015, 01:57 PM
In 21 minutes played.

He might get the Max but he's not worth it. I remember when Tyson was with the Knicks posting 20 & 15 for a stretch

JEDean89
02-22-2015, 02:18 PM
people don't get it. Guys like Melo, Cousins, Kobe, Rose, Wade, these guys pull in an enormous amount of money to their teams and the league. Way more than 2-30 mil, so all these guys also need to be max contract players. From a pure cap point, perhaps not, I would argue only LBJ, Davis, Durant, Harden, Westbrook and Curry are the only ones truly deserving of a max. But the other guys are far more valuable to their teams than what they get paid also, a lot of people forget that money still runs this league.

FlashBolt
02-22-2015, 04:36 PM
No Blake Griffin or Demarcus Cousins or Carmelo Anthony?

Can Blake Griffin carry a team? Don't think so. Can DeMarcus carry a team? Probably not. What has Melo done again? Sorry, max should be what it is. The player who puts your team in the best winning situation should be getting the max. Not some player who puts up numbers on a losing team. With Blake, this guy shows you why he's not a max based on his playoff performance.

[QUOTE=JEDean89;29645206]people don't get it. Guys like Melo, Cousins, Kobe, Rose, Wade, these guys pull in an enormous amount of money to their teams and the league. Way more than 2-30 mil, so all these guys also need to be max contract players. From a pure cap point, perhaps not, I would argue only LBJ, Davis, Durant, Harden, Westbrook and Curry are the only ones truly deserving of a max. But the other guys are far more valuable to their teams than what they get paid also, a lot of people forget that money still runs this league.

We're speaking solely on their ability to play basketball. I don't care about endorsements. By that logic, James should be getting paid $50 million at the very least. The word "max" shouldn't be restricted on him if we're going to put a price tag on their impact.

FlashBolt
02-22-2015, 04:37 PM
I'm sorry, but this is a tad delusional. The NBA doesn't work that way. Pretty much any team that gets a top 25-30 guy and doesn't want to lose him is going to pay a max contract. But I will agree that there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, paying near max dollars to Chandler Parsons last offseason was probably an overpay. And giving max money to Jordan would certainly be an overpay in my book.

It's delusional because the NBA doesn't work that way? How about you rephrase that into, "Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way." Because quite frankly, there are players getting paid the max that shouldn't. When you say max, there shouldn't be 20 players receiving it. It's unfortunate that in the situation NBA is in now, NBA players are demanding so much money and a team is stupid enough to give them it.

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 06:05 PM
It's delusional because the NBA doesn't work that way? How about you rephrase that into, "Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way." Because quite frankly, there are players getting paid the max that shouldn't. When you say max, there shouldn't be 20 players receiving it. It's unfortunate that in the situation NBA is in now, NBA players are demanding so much money and a team is stupid enough to give them it.

Guys who are absolutely, positively worthy of a max contract:
1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Stephen Curry
4. James Harden
5. Anthony Davis
6. Chris Paul
7. Blake Griffin
8. Marc Gasol
9. Russell Westbrook
10. LaMarcus Aldridge
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Carmelo Anthony
13. John Wall
14. Dwight Howard
15. Paul George

Guys who are borderline, but should easily make it in this market:
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Damian Lillard
18. Klay Thompson
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Tim Duncan
22. Kevin Love
23. Gordon Hayward
24. Jimmy Butler
25. Chris Bosh
26. Al Jefferson
27. Jeff Teague

Those are in no particular order, by the way. But it's pretty clear to me that there are easily 20+ guys in the league worthy of a max deal. There's jut not a clear divide right now between the 10th best guy in the league and the 20th best guy. There's maybe 7-8 guys who sit atop the league right now, but after that, there's a whole bunch of great players who are easily worth a max deal.

Perhaps you and I just have different opinions of what a max player should be. But when I see "max contract," my barometer for that is often, "Can this guy be the best player on a playoff team or a solid No. 2 on a championship team?" Every guy I just listed meets that criteria in my book, and there are probably quite a few I left out.

FlashBolt
02-22-2015, 06:24 PM
Guys who are absolutely, positively worthy of a max contract:
1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Stephen Curry
4. James Harden
5. Anthony Davis
6. Chris Paul
7. Blake Griffin
8. Marc Gasol
9. Russell Westbrook
10. LaMarcus Aldridge
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Carmelo Anthony
13. John Wall
14. Dwight Howard
15. Paul George

Guys who are borderline, but should easily make it in this market:
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Damian Lillard
18. Klay Thompson
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Tim Duncan
22. Kevin Love
23. Gordon Hayward
24. Jimmy Butler
25. Chris Bosh
26. Al Jefferson
27. Jeff Teague

Those are in no particular order, by the way. But it's pretty clear to me that there are easily 20+ guys in the league worthy of a max deal. There's jut not a clear divide right now between the 10th best guy in the league and the 20th best guy. There's maybe 7-8 guys who sit atop the league right now, but after that, there's a whole bunch of great players who are easily worth a max deal.

Perhaps you and I just have different opinions of what a max player should be. But when I see "max contract," my barometer for that is often, "Can this guy be the best player on a playoff team or a solid No. 2 on a championship team?" Every guy I just listed meets that criteria in my book, and there are probably quite a few I left out.

There is nothing to discuss when talking about the max. The best players should get the max and Blake Griffin is a max player? Have you seen him in the playoffs? Seriously, only about ten guys should ever get the max. It's just NBA teams are handing them out like miniature candy bars and now the public has a misconception about what is truly a max player. Carmelo is a max player? Dwight Howard is a max player? They are great talent but neither of them are max players right now. Dwight sucks btw. He's become completely irrelevant.

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 06:39 PM
There is nothing to discuss when talking about the max. The best players should get the max and Blake Griffin is a max player? Have you seen him in the playoffs? Seriously, only about ten guys should ever get the max. It's just NBA teams are handing them out like miniature candy bars and now the public has a misconception about what is truly a max player. Carmelo is a max player? Dwight Howard is a max player? They are great talent but neither of them are max players right now. Dwight sucks btw. He's become completely irrelevant.

You would definitely not be a very good NBA general manager with a mindset like this. And I'm just going to completely ignore the "Dwight Howard sucks" comment, because it's clearly coming from someone who has no ****ing clue what he's talking about.

Sactown
02-22-2015, 08:45 PM
He's one of those many guys who you don't want/ deserve the max but you're going to give it to anyways.. he's difficult to replace and a dumb team will offer him the max and you'll be forced to match..

DJ
Hayward
Parsons
Dwight (Current not prime )
Klay
Melo
Bosh


And tons more are guys most people want on their teams, but if we were building a roster we wouldn't way to pay the max, but are forced too because someone will

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 09:00 PM
Flashbolt Griffin was injured in 2 playoff runs and last year against two teams that match up very very well with him (Draymond Green and Ibaka) he put up only slightly worse numbers than his season averages. Griffin absolutely sure as hell is a max player and a top 10 player. The dude is putting up 23/8/5 about and has started his career with 5 straight all star selections and 3 All NBA team selections. Anyone who doesn't think he's deserving is insane.

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 09:04 PM
Guys who are absolutely, positively worthy of a max contract:
1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Stephen Curry
4. James Harden
5. Anthony Davis
6. Chris Paul
7. Blake Griffin
8. Marc Gasol
9. Russell Westbrook
10. LaMarcus Aldridge
11. DeMarcus Cousins
12. Carmelo Anthony
13. John Wall
14. Dwight Howard
15. Paul George

Guys who are borderline, but should easily make it in this market:
16. Kyrie Irving
17. Damian Lillard
18. Klay Thompson
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Tim Duncan
22. Kevin Love
23. Gordon Hayward
24. Jimmy Butler
25. Chris Bosh
26. Al Jefferson
27. Jeff Teague

Those are in no particular order, by the way. But it's pretty clear to me that there are easily 20+ guys in the league worthy of a max deal. There's jut not a clear divide right now between the 10th best guy in the league and the 20th best guy. There's maybe 7-8 guys who sit atop the league right now, but after that, there's a whole bunch of great players who are easily worth a max deal.

Perhaps you and I just have different opinions of what a max player should be. But when I see "max contract," my barometer for that is often, "Can this guy be the best player on a playoff team or a solid No. 2 on a championship team?" Every guy I just listed meets that criteria in my book, and there are probably quite a few I left out.

I agree mostly, although I think you're not UNDERRATING DJ's impact if you have guys on list two that are inferior impact/metric players to DJ such as Kyrie Irving, Jeff Teague, Kevin Love (this year), Jefferson, Bosh etc. DJ is somewhere around 15-20 in terms of best players on this list, DEFINITELY a top 30 player this year. The dude is posting a .217 WS/48 which is good for 7th best in the NBA. No way in hell you have him off the top 20 list bro, get real. Unless you're living in 2012.

mightybosstone
02-22-2015, 09:23 PM
I agree mostly, although I think you're not UNDERRATING DJ's impact if you have guys on list two that are inferior impact/metric players to DJ such as Kyrie Irving, Jeff Teague, Kevin Love (this year), Jefferson, Bosh etc. DJ is somewhere around 15-20 in terms of best players on this list, DEFINITELY a top 30 player this year. The dude is posting a .217 WS/48 which is good for 7th best in the NBA. No way in hell you have him off the top 20 list bro, get real. Unless you're living in 2012.

Uhhh... No. The reason Jordan's advanced metrics are so good is because he's freakishly efficient around the basket and is productive in most defensive statistical categories. It's the "Tyson Chandler corollary" I always bring up when people discuss WS as a broken statistic. DeAndre Jordan is not a better basketball player than Lebron James. I don't think I would necessarily rank him higher than many of the players on that list if any. Would I rank him in the top 30? Probably, but it would be close.

Clippersfan86
02-22-2015, 09:33 PM
Uhhh... No. The reason Jordan's advanced metrics are so good is because he's freakishly efficient around the basket and is productive in most defensive statistical categories. It's the "Tyson Chandler corollary" I always bring up when people discuss WS as a broken statistic. DeAndre Jordan is not a better basketball player than Lebron James. I don't think I would necessarily rank him higher than many of the players on that list if any. Would I rank him in the top 30? Probably, but it would be close.

Oh I get it that it's the Tyson Chandler situation and we all saw how HUGE Tyson was for the Mavericks 2011 title run. I don't think being a go to player or offensive superstar has any more weight or value than being a defensive one. The bottom line is DJ's impact leads to wins and he should be valued more by people. Is he actually a top 10 player? No. Is he a top 20 player probably, definitely has a case. Thing is a few of the guys you mentioned as I pointed out surely are not higher impact players.

Also we haven't mentioned that bigmen, especially defensive anchors command more salary than most positions in recent years. There is a so called premium for good big men. Now whether or not you guys think only "superstars" deserve max money is an entirely different topic. If you're talking about if DJ is one of only a handful of superstars in the league, I'd admit he wasn't. But if you're talking about his VALUE which is determined by market and what buyers are willing to pay, he's no doubt a max player.

FlashBolt
02-22-2015, 11:27 PM
You would definitely not be a very good NBA general manager with a mindset like this. And I'm just going to completely ignore the "Dwight Howard sucks" comment, because it's clearly coming from someone who has no ****ing clue what he's talking about.

Except I'm not an NBA general manager and the fact that you base it on whether or not who is a max contract player shows how little you know about business. It shouldn't be a player's market because these players are running around taking money and acting as if they have zero obligations. My mindset is based on being a fan. I'm not blaming teams for handing out max contracts to protect their investment and face value of the team. I'm simply stating that as a fan, I don't see how some of these guys are getting max contracts. It's also quite funny you say I have no clue what I'm talking about. Dwight Howard is a joke. He hasn't learned jack from Hakeem. The Rockets are winning games without him. He's not the same Dwight Howard and that's not deserving of max. What makes Dwight much better than DJ exactly? If DJ to you isn't max, why do you think Dwight is? Please, enlighten me. He's not playing better defense, not rebounding better, and he's marginally better on offense due to the simple fact that DJ has never took it upon himself to score.

Cracka2HI!
02-23-2015, 11:54 PM
As a fan of the team that will overpay and give DJ the max I will say...I would rather the team give DJ the max than lose him. He is a rare player that seems to get better the more responsibility you give him. Except FT's lol.

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 12:23 AM
Except I'm not an NBA general manager and the fact that you base it on whether or not who is a max contract player shows how little you know about business.
Except it's not about business. If you purchase an NBA solely to run it like a business and are too tight with your money, your team is not going to win basketball games. Successful franchises are often those where the owner and GM are willing to occasionally overspend for the right player.


It shouldn't be a player's market because these players are running around taking money and acting as if they have zero obligations.
:confused: I have no early idea what you're talking about here.


My mindset is based on being a fan. I'm not blaming teams for handing out max contracts to protect their investment and face value of the team. I'm simply stating that as a fan, I don't see how some of these guys are getting max contracts.
Players are getting max contracts because that is what the market is dictating. If a player is remotely close to getting a max contract, that player is going to have a shot to get it if he wants to take it. Sure, you'll have guys like Duncan and Dirk who are willing to take major discounts to help their franchises, but for everyone one of those guys, you get five guys who are the Kobe Bryants and Chandler Parsons of the world.


It's also quite funny you say I have no clue what I'm talking about. Dwight Howard is a joke. He hasn't learned jack from Hakeem. The Rockets are winning games without him.
Hence why you have no ****ing clue what you're talking about. They're mostly winning games against bad teams, and their defense in a lot of these games has been abysmal in the paint. Just because Houston is winning games doesn't mean they don't miss him. I assure you (as someone who watches A LOT more Rockets games than you) that they do miss him, and they absolutely need him to be healthy to make a deep playoff run.


He's not the same Dwight Howard and that's not deserving of max.
Ummm... Just because Dwight isn't the same guy he was in Orlando doesn't mean he isn't still deserving of a max. Name one center in the NBA who provides an efficient 15/10 with elite top 5 caliber defense? Frankly, Dwight's the only answer to that question in the entire NBA right now.


What makes Dwight much better than DJ exactly? If DJ to you isn't max, why do you think Dwight is? Please, enlighten me. He's not playing better defense, not rebounding better, and he's marginally better on offense due to the simple fact that DJ has never took it upon himself to score.
IMO, Dwight is unquestionably a better player on both ends of the floor than Jordan. I still think he's better defensively and a lot of defensive metrics would back me up. And offensively, Jordan is extremely efficient, but he's never going to take over a basketball game for you offensively. Dwight still can, albeit he doesn't do it as often as he used to.

But I don't understand how anyone can justify Jordan as a better player than Dwight. The only argument you could make would be based solely on efficiency and health.

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 03:49 PM
Lmao. Except, you're confusing the market with their face value. Everything is business. You just can't reach up to it. You think GM's are simply handing out money to everyone? They have to worry about how it will impact their entire system. Just because they get paid maximum, doesn't mean it makes sense.

Because you clearly aren't a business major.


Players are getting max contracts because every single one of them are instructing their agents to ASK for max contracts. Which is why I said that players are just asking for maximum and then when that is fulfilled, they act as if there are zero obligations. Look at Larry Sanders and Andrew Bynum. They get paid huge contracts and then pretend as if they aren't getting paid at all. GM's are left with no choice other than to sign these players because they will get fired if not.


... They beat six playoff teams during his absence. Sit down, fool.

They have allowed fewer points per game with Dwight out.. Again, sit down and stop insinuating stuff. His impact isn't as huge as you think it is.

LMAO at Dwight can take over a basketball game offensively. He has only scored above 25 points three times this season. This guy has learned nothing from Hakeem. He hasn't improved a single bit on the offensive end his entire career. With the massive amount of three point shooting, Dwight's impact is strictly on the defensive end covering the paint. He doesn't warrant a max contract with his level of play. In his Orlando days, he did. Not today.

I never said DJ was better than Dwight. That's where reading actually makes a difference. Since you believe DJ isn't a max contract, what makes Dwight warrant a max contract? Dwight isn't much better than DJ right now. Please, tell me.

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 03:52 PM
Except it's not about business. If you purchase an NBA solely to run it like a business and are too tight with your money, your team is not going to win basketball games. Successful franchises are often those where the owner and GM are willing to occasionally overspend for the right player.


:confused: I have no early idea what you're talking about here.


Players are getting max contracts because that is what the market is dictating. If a player is remotely close to getting a max contract, that player is going to have a shot to get it if he wants to take it. Sure, you'll have guys like Duncan and Dirk who are willing to take major discounts to help their franchises, but for everyone one of those guys, you get five guys who are the Kobe Bryants and Chandler Parsons of the world.


Hence why you have no ****ing clue what you're talking about. They're mostly winning games against bad teams, and their defense in a lot of these games has been abysmal in the paint. Just because Houston is winning games doesn't mean they don't miss him. I assure you (as someone who watches A LOT more Rockets games than you) that they do miss him, and they absolutely need him to be healthy to make a deep playoff run.


Ummm... Just because Dwight isn't the same guy he was in Orlando doesn't mean he isn't still deserving of a max. Name one center in the NBA who provides an efficient 15/10 with elite top 5 caliber defense? Frankly, Dwight's the only answer to that question in the entire NBA right now.


IMO, Dwight is unquestionably a better player on both ends of the floor than Jordan. I still think he's better defensively and a lot of defensive metrics would back me up. And offensively, Jordan is extremely efficient, but he's never going to take over a basketball game for you offensively. Dwight still can, albeit he doesn't do it as often as he used to.

But I don't understand how anyone can justify Jordan as a better player than Dwight. The only argument you could make would be based solely on efficiency and health.



Lmao. Except, you're confusing the market with their face value. Everything is business. You just can't reach up to it. You think GM's are simply handing out money to everyone? They have to worry about how it will impact their entire system. Just because they get paid maximum, doesn't mean it makes sense.
:confused: I have no early idea what you're talking about here.
Because you clearly aren't a business major. You do know GM's have to take a sports management course, right? You don't just get told to be a GM and then act as a GM. You are playing with people's money. No one is going to let you sit in your office playing Monopoly.


Players are getting max contracts because every single one of them are instructing their agents to ASK for max contracts. Which is why I said that players are just asking for maximum and then when that is fulfilled, they act as if there are zero obligations. Look at Larry Sanders and Andrew Bynum. They get paid huge contracts and then pretend as if they aren't getting paid at all. GM's are left with no choice other than to sign these players because they will get fired if not.


... They beat six playoff teams during his absence. Sit down, fool.

They have allowed fewer points per game with Dwight out.. Again, sit down and stop insinuating stuff. His impact isn't as huge as you think it is.

LMAO at Dwight can take over a basketball game offensively. He has only scored above 25 points three times this season. This guy has learned nothing from Hakeem. He hasn't improved a single bit on the offensive end his entire career. With the massive amount of three point shooting, Dwight's impact is strictly on the defensive end covering the paint. He doesn't warrant a max contract with his level of play. In his Orlando days, he did. Not today.

I never said DJ was better than Dwight. That's where reading actually makes a difference. Since you believe DJ isn't a max contract, what makes Dwight warrant a max contract? Dwight isn't much better than DJ right now. Please, tell me.

Goose17
02-24-2015, 03:56 PM
Name one center in the NBA who provides an efficient 15/10 with elite top 5 caliber defense?


You're lucky Gasol only averages 8 rebounds per :p

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 04:04 PM
Your lucky Gasol only averages 8 rebounds per :p

He picks and chooses the stats he wants you to see. Gasol is a way better center than Dwight. To say 15/10 and top 5 caliber defense? LMAO, Dwight isn't a top 5 defender.. Let's get real.

Chronz
02-24-2015, 05:09 PM
Name one center in the NBA who provides an efficient 15/10 with elite top 5 caliber defense?

Your lucky Gasol only averages 8 rebounds per :p
Dwights efficient? Not this year, DJ has clearly outplayed Dwight IMO. You dont need to carry an offense with high usage to have a greater impact. Dwight "When Healthy" and in the post season, thats a different beast, but based on his play this year, hes not been good. His 15/10 actually comes with middling efficiency when you consider his turnovers.

Goose17
02-24-2015, 05:16 PM
Dwights efficient? Not this year, DJ has clearly outplayed Dwight IMO. You dont need to carry an offense with high usage to have a greater impact. Dwight "When Healthy" and in the post season, thats a different beast, but based on his play this year, hes not been good. His 15/10 actually comes with middling efficiency when you consider his turnovers.

DJ doesn't average 15 and 10 though :(

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 06:18 PM
Lmao. Except, you're confusing the market with their face value. Everything is business. You just can't reach up to it. You think GM's are simply handing out money to everyone? They have to worry about how it will impact their entire system. Just because they get paid maximum, doesn't mean it makes sense.

Because you clearly aren't a business major. You do know GM's have to take a sports management course, right? You don't just get told to be a GM and then act as a GM. You are playing with people's money. No one is going to let you sit in your office playing Monopoly.
:laugh: You don't need to be a business major to have common sense. Math and common sense and understanding market value isn't that ****ing complicated. I can look at a player and make the determination of whether a player is roughly worth and that would player will likely make on the open market. A GM's job is determine whether it's worth it to overpay for that player or not to keep him.


Players are getting max contracts because every single one of them are instructing their agents to ASK for max contracts. Which is why I said that players are just asking for maximum and then when that is fulfilled, they act as if there are zero obligations. Look at Larry Sanders and Andrew Bynum. They get paid huge contracts and then pretend as if they aren't getting paid at all. GM's are left with no choice other than to sign these players because they will get fired if not.
Every player can ask for a max contract. That doesn't mean they'll get it. A player gets a max contract if the player wants the max contract and there is a market for a player to receive that max contract. If DeAndre Jordan wants a max and a team outside of the Clippers is willing to give him a max, then the Clippers are likely going to have to pay something close to the max to keep him. But if nobody outside the Clippers is willing to pay the max for Jordan, then there's no reason for the Clippers to give him the max unless they want to waste their money. Common sense.


... They beat six playoff teams during his absence. Sit down, fool.
That doesn't make them a better basketball team. And name calling isn't going to gain you much respect, chief.


They have allowed fewer points per game with Dwight out.. Again, sit down and stop insinuating stuff. His impact isn't as huge as you think it is.
You're also not factoring in the Rockets midseason acquisitions or other injuries that have occurred throughout the year. And you're looking at a ridiculously small sample size. If Houston played an entire season without Dwight and entire season with a healthy Dwight, are you honestly so dense that you think the Rockets would give up fewer points per game without Dwight than with him?


LMAO at Dwight can take over a basketball game offensively. He has only scored above 25 points three times this season.
Clearly you didn't watch his performance in the postseason last year. Also, you're completely forgetting the fact that Dwight has been banged up the entire season. And why is 25 points the barometer we're using here? That doesn't exactly seem fair here. In the entire NBA, there are three players averaging 25 points per game. How about using 20 as a barometer for a good basketball game for an offensive No. 1? There's only like 15 guys in the league averaging that right now. Using that as a barometer, Dwight has accomplished that feat 11 times this season despite topping 30 minutes only 21 times on the season. I'd say that's pretty solid for an offensive No. 2 who has played the entire season injured.


This guy has learned nothing from Hakeem. He hasn't improved a single bit on the offensive end his entire career. With the massive amount of three point shooting, Dwight's impact is strictly on the defensive end covering the paint.
And yet he still has a more reliable offensive game than 90% of the centers in the league today. As for whether he learned anything from Hakeem or improved on the offensive end, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. He hasn't dropped off as a player because he isn't taking Hakeem or the Rockets coaches seriously or because he's not trying to add moves to his repertoire. He's dropping off because he's played a lot of games, he's aging, he's hurt and he's losing his athleticism.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on these points I suppose. But I don't really feel like arguing them anymore, because it's a tired argument that has no real substance to it.


He doesn't warrant a max contract with his level of play. In his Orlando days, he did. Not today.
Again, I agree to disagree. Let's go back to that discussion earlier about market value. If Morey and the Rockets did not pay Dwight a max offer, there were easily a handful of other teams who were more than willing to. For that matter, the Lakers could have given Dwight even more money than the Rockets game him.

Whether you believe he was worth the max or not is irrelevant. He was going to get the max from someone and he got it. It was not a poor contract, and you'd be hard pressed to find any reasonable fan or analyst who would agree with you.


I never said DJ was better than Dwight. That's where reading actually makes a difference. Since you believe DJ isn't a max contract, what makes Dwight warrant a max contract? Dwight isn't much better than DJ right now. Please, tell me.
We've gone over this already. I believe a healthy Dwight Howard is superior basketball player to Jordan. As limited as Dwight's offensive game may be and as turnover prone as he is, you can still rely on him to get you 15-20 points a night and draw a lot of double teams to make things easier on other offensive players. Defensively, I'm sure we could both provide metrics to argue the better player, but I'd probably rather have Dwight on that end of the floor as well.

Dwight has not been healthy this year, and I don't believe Dwight has played very well this season. There are times where I've screamed at him from my couch during games. That doesn't mean he wasn't worth the contract he signed, and that certainly doesn't mean I'd rather have Jordan over him when he's healthy.

Now there's the very real possibility that we may never see a "healthy Dwight" ever again. I can accept that as a possibility. But we don't have enough of a sample size to prove that yet. He could come back from this knee injury and be every bit the Dwight Howard we saw and loved last season. He could dominate in the playoffs again and come back strong next season. Or he may never play a full season again. But at 29 and with a couple of years left on his deal, I'm certainly not willing to give up on the dude yet. And neither would you if he was on your team.

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 06:21 PM
Dwights efficient? Not this year, DJ has clearly outplayed Dwight IMO. You dont need to carry an offense with high usage to have a greater impact. Dwight "When Healthy" and in the post season, thats a different beast, but based on his play this year, hes not been good. His 15/10 actually comes with middling efficiency when you consider his turnovers.

"When you consider his turnovers" is the key phrase there. Just in terms of scoring efficiency, he's still been well above average. Obviously he turns the ball over way too much, especially too often for a player whose number of looks has dropped a bit this season. But as I've stated before, I don't think Dwight has played all that well this year, because I don't think the man is healthy. But until prove otherwise, I'm going to assume that the Dwight from last season still exists and that he's still capable of being that guy. And that guy is a better basketball player than DeAndre Jordan.

KnicksorBust
02-24-2015, 06:22 PM
Would anyone take DJ over Cousins?

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 06:23 PM
Would anyone take DJ over Cousins?

I certainly wouldn't.

KnicksorBust
02-24-2015, 06:30 PM
I certainly wouldn't.

Much better defensively... equally dominant as a rebounder... way more efficient offensively...

mightybosstone
02-24-2015, 07:20 PM
Much better defensively... equally dominant as a rebounder... way more efficient offensively...

Efficiency with that low of a usage rate isn't exactly that impressive. If I enter an NBA game and take one shot and make it, then that's some pretty ridiculous efficiency. That doesn't make me a good offensive NBA player.

KnicksorBust
02-24-2015, 07:23 PM
Efficiency with that low of a usage rate isn't exactly that impressive. If I enter an NBA game and take one shot and make it, then that's some pretty ridiculous efficiency. That doesn't make me a good offensive NBA player.

But DeAndre Jordan didn't make one basket...He's made 1,599... and he's arguably the best rebounder in the world... and I also doubt you provide the same type of rim protection. I'm surprised you are willing to support Dwight so easily yet you would prefer Demarcus "Do I have to play on both ends?" "Can I get a technical this game?" Cousins.

Chronz
02-24-2015, 09:19 PM
Cousins CAN play defense now tho, he just needs some motivation

Chronz
02-24-2015, 09:30 PM
"When you consider his turnovers" is the key phrase there.
Well yeah, its a key part of the game and more costly than misses from the field. Particularly when you demand as many post ups (with high turnovers) as Dwight has since his back surgery. I will admit tho, "when healthy" is really important to Dwight's post up game. He goes through dominant stretches.


Just in terms of scoring efficiency, he's still been well above average.
I think its more accurate to say in terms of ts%, hes still trying to score when he posts up and gets stripped, he just didn't get a shot off. So even if we agreed that his scoring efficiency was above average, it still doesn't exonerate his offensive inefficiency. Dude has been awful this year. Arguably holding his team back offensively, I know hes holding whatshisface back.


Obviously he turns the ball over way too much, especially too often for a player whose number of looks has dropped a bit this season. But as I've stated before, I don't think Dwight has played all that well this year, because I don't think the man is healthy. But until prove otherwise, I'm going to assume that the Dwight from last season still exists and that he's still capable of being that guy. And that guy is a better basketball player than DeAndre Jordan.
Well yeah, but I havent seen much of that guy this year. I remember when I felt that way about Tmac, eventually guys only have 1 final playoff push in them. Dwight may have used his last one, I hope not, but given how often DJ has disappeared in the playoffs, I agree with you on whos earned the trust.

FlashBolt
02-24-2015, 11:21 PM
No Blake Griffin or Demarcus Cousins or Carmelo Anthony?

I think this is an entirely subjective topic anyway, since there are lots of players who are borderline max players that will be signed to max contracts to keep them from leaving. I'd rather pay someone like Whiteside or Mozgov cheap money than give a max contract to Deandre Jordan, but that's just me.

Edit: So if I were the Clippers, I'd let Jordan go before paying him the max. I can understand why they'd consider paying it to him but it's not like they're winning rings and stuff with him. Move on.


:laugh: You don't need to be a business major to have common sense. Math and common sense and understanding market value isn't that ****ing complicated. I can look at a player and make the determination of whether a player is roughly worth and that would player will likely make on the open market. A GM's job is determine whether it's worth it to overpay for that player or not to keep him.


Every player can ask for a max contract. That doesn't mean they'll get it. A player gets a max contract if the player wants the max contract and there is a market for a player to receive that max contract. If DeAndre Jordan wants a max and a team outside of the Clippers is willing to give him a max, then the Clippers are likely going to have to pay something close to the max to keep him. But if nobody outside the Clippers is willing to pay the max for Jordan, then there's no reason for the Clippers to give him the max unless they want to waste their money. Common sense.


That doesn't make them a better basketball team. And name calling isn't going to gain you much respect, chief.


You're also not factoring in the Rockets midseason acquisitions or other injuries that have occurred throughout the year. And you're looking at a ridiculously small sample size. If Houston played an entire season without Dwight and entire season with a healthy Dwight, are you honestly so dense that you think the Rockets would give up fewer points per game without Dwight than with him?


Clearly you didn't watch his performance in the postseason last year. Also, you're completely forgetting the fact that Dwight has been banged up the entire season. And why is 25 points the barometer we're using here? That doesn't exactly seem fair here. In the entire NBA, there are three players averaging 25 points per game. How about using 20 as a barometer for a good basketball game for an offensive No. 1? There's only like 15 guys in the league averaging that right now. Using that as a barometer, Dwight has accomplished that feat 11 times this season despite topping 30 minutes only 21 times on the season. I'd say that's pretty solid for an offensive No. 2 who has played the entire season injured.


And yet he still has a more reliable offensive game than 90% of the centers in the league today. As for whether he learned anything from Hakeem or improved on the offensive end, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. He hasn't dropped off as a player because he isn't taking Hakeem or the Rockets coaches seriously or because he's not trying to add moves to his repertoire. He's dropping off because he's played a lot of games, he's aging, he's hurt and he's losing his athleticism.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on these points I suppose. But I don't really feel like arguing them anymore, because it's a tired argument that has no real substance to it.


Again, I agree to disagree. Let's go back to that discussion earlier about market value. If Morey and the Rockets did not pay Dwight a max offer, there were easily a handful of other teams who were more than willing to. For that matter, the Lakers could have given Dwight even more money than the Rockets game him.

Whether you believe he was worth the max or not is irrelevant. He was going to get the max from someone and he got it. It was not a poor contract, and you'd be hard pressed to find any reasonable fan or analyst who would agree with you.


We've gone over this already. I believe a healthy Dwight Howard is superior basketball player to Jordan. As limited as Dwight's offensive game may be and as turnover prone as he is, you can still rely on him to get you 15-20 points a night and draw a lot of double teams to make things easier on other offensive players. Defensively, I'm sure we could both provide metrics to argue the better player, but I'd probably rather have Dwight on that end of the floor as well.

Dwight has not been healthy this year, and I don't believe Dwight has played very well this season. There are times where I've screamed at him from my couch during games. That doesn't mean he wasn't worth the contract he signed, and that certainly doesn't mean I'd rather have Jordan over him when he's healthy.

Now there's the very real possibility that we may never see a "healthy Dwight" ever again. I can accept that as a possibility. But we don't have enough of a sample size to prove that yet. He could come back from this knee injury and be every bit the Dwight Howard we saw and loved last season. He could dominate in the playoffs again and come back strong next season. Or he may never play a full season again. But at 29 and with a couple of years left on his deal, I'm certainly not willing to give up on the dude yet. And neither would you if he was on your team.

All your answers have to do "if Dwight isn't injured and healthy." That's an easy way of explaining why he hasn't been stellar. He's not the best center and he's barely a top 20 player. I don't care if he's injured or not. This season is about this season. He's been injured since his last season at Orlando and he hasn't come back. You keep bringing up, "Dwight healthy is better than DJ." Wtf? So you don't give DJ credit but instead, downplay him because Dwight isn't healthy? DJ is playing better than him. He's never relied on to be an offensive player and most of his points do come from lobs. He's the best rebounder and has been completely destroying the boards. Meanwhile, Dwight is injured and having one of the worst season's of his career. Please, tell me why Dwight deserves a max and DJ shouldn't because quite frankly, DJ is playing better than him this season.

Vee-Rex
02-25-2015, 01:56 AM
But DeAndre Jordan didn't make one basket...He's made 1,599... and he's arguably the best rebounder in the world... and I also doubt you provide the same type of rim protection. I'm surprised you are willing to support Dwight so easily yet you would prefer Demarcus "Do I have to play on both ends?" "Can I get a technical this game?" Cousins.

I'd take Cousins over both DJ and D12.

D12 is in a sharp decline IMO and at age 29 should be in his prime but he isn't. I don't see him ever being nearly the player he once was and he doesn't seem to have the heart/mentality to play extremely well in this league anymore.

DJ is limited but excels at what he does. There isn't as big of a gap between Demarcus Cousin's defense and DJ's defense as there is between DMC's offense and DJ's offense.

Obviously if I already have plenty of scorers/play-makers on my team and only need a defensive/rebounding anchor in the middle, I'd consider Deandre Jordan over DMC. But if I was to start off a fresh, brand new team with no players there's no way I'm taking DJ over DMC.

Clippersfan86
02-25-2015, 03:00 PM
Would anyone take DJ over Cousins?

Course not. But that's not a knock on DJ. Cousins is putting up the best statistical season from a center since Orlando Dwight and prime Shaq. 25/12/3/1.5/1.5 or whatever is dominant. Cousins is better player but who I take depends on roster.

Sactown
02-25-2015, 03:46 PM
Demarcus is a top 10 rim protector and has 6 techincals .... Not sure why people are calling him a bad defender and a technical nightmare... KD and Blake had just as many last season...

And before people say empty stats...

Who's going to win while playing for 3 head coaches in one season and Ramon Sessions and Derrick Williams being starters for part of the season...

Goose17
02-25-2015, 04:02 PM
Course not. But that's not a knock on DJ. Cousins is putting up the best statistical season from a center since Orlando Dwight and prime Shaq. 25/12/3/1.5/1.5 or whatever is dominant. Cousins is better player but who I take depends on roster.

Fit matters. I agree.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 06:02 PM
Demarcus is a top 10 rim protector and has 6 techincals .... Not sure why people are calling him a bad defender and a technical nightmare... KD and Blake had just as many last season...

And before people say empty stats...

Who's going to win while playing for 3 head coaches in one season and Ramon Sessions and Derrick Williams being starters for part of the season...

Hakeem won a ring in 94 with less talent. Duncan won a ring in 2003 with less talent. Cousins cant even play .500 basketball. I hate his game and his personality.

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:03 PM
Hakeem won a ring in 94 with less talent. Duncan won a ring in 2003 with less talent. Cousins cant even play .500 basketball. I hate his game and his personality.

Neither of those guys are playing in this kind of conference. Don't forget how many coaching changes this team went through and were also 9-6 before Cousins got injured. I mean, the West is just crazy right now. The times of winning with one player and building around that player isn't possible anymore. You need at least two dominant players to win. I don't think Sacramento has one other than Cousins.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 07:08 PM
Hakeem won a ring in 94 with less talent. Duncan won a ring in 2003 with less talent. Cousins cant even play .500 basketball. I hate his game and his personality.

Neither of those guys are playing in this kind of conference. Don't forget how many coaching changes this team went through and were also 9-6 before Cousins got injured. I mean, the West is just crazy right now. The times of winning with one player and building around that player isn't possible anymore. You need at least two dominant players to win. I don't think Sacramento has one other than Cousins.

You dont think Cousins has anything to do with all these coaching changes? Lmao. Bro read up

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:16 PM
You dont think Cousins has anything to do with all these coaching changes? Lmao. Bro read up

You said he can't even play .500 basketball.. I'm telling you one of the reasons why. He's certainly a top 10 player. His personality is an issue but he's certainly improved in that category.

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 07:23 PM
You dont think Cousins has anything to do with all these coaching changes? Lmao. Bro read up

You said he can't even play .500 basketball.. I'm telling you one of the reasons why. He's certainly a top 10 player. His personality is an issue but he's certainly improved in that category.

But you are blaming it on an issue that he causes. You are essentially saying "Cousins shouldnt be blamed for their bad record bc of instability that he causes." It doesnt make sense.

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:37 PM
But you are blaming it on an issue that he causes. You are essentially saying "Cousins shouldnt be blamed for their bad record bc of instability that he causes." It doesnt make sense.

No. I'm stating that coaching changes will affect a team. Regardless of whether or not he liked them, changing coaches while in the midst of a season usually doesn't work out (especially in a conference like the West). Whether or not Cousins contributed to that has more to do with his personality (which I acknowledged could use some work).

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 07:39 PM
But you are blaming it on an issue that he causes. You are essentially saying "Cousins shouldnt be blamed for their bad record bc of instability that he causes." It doesnt make sense.

No. I'm stating that coaching changes will affect a team. Regardless of whether or not he liked them, changing coaches while in the midst of a season usually doesn't work out (especially in a conference like the West). Whether or not Cousins contributed to that has more to do with his personality (which I acknowledged could use some work).

I am not going to argue this in circles bc I dont care that much about Cousins but you cant acknowledge he is an issue for coaches and then blame coaching changes for why his teams always lose. If he is a root of a problem that doesnt absolve him from any blame.

FlashBolt
02-25-2015, 07:47 PM
I am not going to argue this in circles bc I dont care that much about Cousins but you cant acknowledge he is an issue for coaches and then blame coaching changes for why his teams always lose. If he is a root of a problem that doesnt absolve him from any blame.

You don't even know what the issue is with him so let's stop pretending you have legitimate reports surrounding Cousins. Media tends to twist things, in case you haven't noticed. I'm speaking about his ability. You said Cousins can't even lead his team to a .500 record. That's completely understandable IF this team were fundamentally intact. They aren't. Cousins missed a few games and from there, the team just played horribly. Yes, he may have been a factor in the coaching changes but that doesn't speak for his talent. You said he can't play .500 basketball. That's a load of crap. Carmelo can't even play .200 basketball.. see how empty that is?

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 08:45 PM
I am not going to argue this in circles bc I dont care that much about Cousins but you cant acknowledge he is an issue for coaches and then blame coaching changes for why his teams always lose. If he is a root of a problem that doesnt absolve him from any blame.

You don't even know what the issue is with him so let's stop pretending you have legitimate reports surrounding Cousins. Media tends to twist things, in case you haven't noticed. I'm speaking about his ability. You said Cousins can't even lead his team to a .500 record. That's completely understandable IF this team were fundamentally intact. They aren't. Cousins missed a few games and from there, the team just played horribly. Yes, he may have been a factor in the coaching changes but that doesn't speak for his talent. You said he can't play .500 basketball. That's a load of crap. Carmelo can't even play .200 basketball.. see how empty that is?

Lol its extremely empty because its factually incorrect. Carmelo has led numerous teams to winning records, +50 win seasons, and a WCF berth. Its a poor attempt at baiting.

kobe4thewinbang
02-25-2015, 08:46 PM
Is DJ worth max now? Is he a franchise cornerstone?I don't think he's worth quite the max (what is max again? How much money? I know it's 6 years total, right?) unless he starts being a go-to guy like Shaq and improves his FT%. He's basically Ben Wallace with hops.

Sactown
02-25-2015, 08:49 PM
But you are blaming it on an issue that he causes. You are essentially saying "Cousins shouldnt be blamed for their bad record bc of instability that he causes." It doesnt make sense.

LOL we've had one good coach in the Boogie era and it was Malone and DMC loved him.. The FO didn't so he was let go....
Corbin was bad coach and now we have Karl... You are ignorant

In fact Cousins has backed the last 4 coaches and has complained that the franchise needs stability with one coach..

KnicksorBust
02-25-2015, 09:06 PM
But you are blaming it on an issue that he causes. You are essentially saying "Cousins shouldnt be blamed for their bad record bc of instability that he causes." It doesnt make sense.

LOL we've had one good coach in the Boogie era and it was Malone and DMC loved him.. The FO didn't so he was let go....
Corbin was bad coach and now we have Karl... You are ignorant

In fact Cousins has backed the last 4 coaches and has complained that the franchise needs stability with one coach..

He didnt have issues with Keith Smart?

Paul Westphal?

Do I really have to educate you on your own team?

D-Leethal
02-25-2015, 09:13 PM
Owners really dropped the ball canning Malone because he was too hard nosed and structured (and they wanted a symphony orchestrator or some looney toon ****) just to go get the king of hard nosed in GK. I hope Cousins leaves and truly flourishes elsewhere. I think he has a Chris Webber-like resurgence (success wise) once he leaves Sactown and find a new home.

Sactown
02-26-2015, 12:02 PM
He didnt have issues with Keith Smart?

Paul Westphal?

Do I really have to educate you on your own team?

Paul Westphal Yes Keith Smart not so much.. Keith Smart was let go once new ownership took over .. not really on him... he's only really had problems with one coach

KnicksorBust
02-26-2015, 01:52 PM
Paul Westphal Yes Keith Smart not so much.. Keith Smart was let go once new ownership took over .. not really on him... he's only really had problems with one coach

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/demarcus-cousins-benched-for-arguing/167015

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/demarcus-cousins-keith-smart/173175

I can't believe I had to waste my time googling this for you. Aren't you a fan of the team? How many years of excuses are you going to make? Clashing with two coaches isn't enough? Do I need more articles? How many coaches has Tim Duncan clashed with in his career? That's how a big man should act.

Sactown
02-26-2015, 11:29 PM
http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/demarcus-cousins-benched-for-arguing/167015

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/demarcus-cousins-keith-smart/173175

I can't believe I had to waste my time googling this for you. Aren't you a fan of the team? How many years of excuses are you going to make? Clashing with two coaches isn't enough? Do I need more articles? How many coaches has Tim Duncan clashed with in his career? That's how a big man should act.

He had minor arguments at the end of a 20 win season... he never stated that he wanted smart fired... Regardless of how bad of a coach he was... Btw how many of the coaches in the maloof era are still head coaches in the league between, Theus mussleman, Smart, and Westphal? The answer is zero.. they were all bad coaches.. Smart benched Curry as well..

Cracka2HI!
02-27-2015, 01:07 AM
I was wondering why this thread was still around. It's because it's no longer about DeAndre Jordan lol!

mightybosstone
02-27-2015, 09:37 AM
But DeAndre Jordan didn't make one basket...He's made 1,599... and he's arguably the best rebounder in the world... and I also doubt you provide the same type of rim protection. I'm surprised you are willing to support Dwight so easily yet you would prefer Demarcus "Do I have to play on both ends?" "Can I get a technical this game?" Cousins.

Jordan's edge on the glass isn't significant enough to make up for the edge edge that Cousins has ofensively. There's a major difference between a guy who can score from anywhere on the floor out to 18 feet and puts up a relatively efficient 24 points a game and a guy who gets the vast majority of his shots on lobs and offensive rebounds and scores 11 points a game. And, yeah, Jordan has a big edge on the defensive side of the ball. But I can get a replacement for Jordan who is capable of doing 70-80% of what Jordan can do for $7-8 million per year. I can't get an offensive big who can give me 70-80% of Cousins' production for that.

SoCal Bob
02-27-2015, 02:11 PM
Jordan's edge on the glass isn't significant enough to make up for the edge edge that Cousins has ofensively. There's a major difference between a guy who can score from anywhere on the floor out to 18 feet and puts up a relatively efficient 24 points a game and a guy who gets the vast majority of his shots on lobs and offensive rebounds and scores 11 points a game. And, yeah, Jordan has a big edge on the defensive side of the ball. But I can get a replacement for Jordan who is capable of doing 70-80% of what Jordan can do for $7-8 million per year. I can't get an offensive big who can give me 70-80% of Cousins' production for that.

I would give him a max.

iliketurtles24
02-27-2015, 02:52 PM
No

Cracka2HI!
02-28-2015, 12:09 AM
It has gotten to a point where I will be furious if the Clippers lose DJ. I hope they can get him for less than the max but he is a max player. If he could shoot Even 55% FT's he'd be the best C in the league. He is the most dominant athlete in the NBA and it isn't even really close. I'm not talking about skill in that statement. Obviously DJ has little skill for an NBA player. As an athlete I can only think of Shaq that is as impressive.

DillyDill
02-28-2015, 12:52 AM
It has gotten to a point where I will be furious if the Clippers lose DJ. I hope they can get him for less than the max but he is a max player. If he could shoot Even 55% FT's he'd be the best C in the league. He is the most dominant athlete in the NBA and it isn't even really close. I'm not talking about skill in that statement. Obviously DJ has little skill for an NBA player. As an athlete I can only think of Shaq that is as impressive.

Freakish athlete I hope the Lakes throw the Max at him

KnicksorBust
02-28-2015, 12:22 PM
But DeAndre Jordan didn't make one basket...He's made 1,599... and he's arguably the best rebounder in the world... and I also doubt you provide the same type of rim protection. I'm surprised you are willing to support Dwight so easily yet you would prefer Demarcus "Do I have to play on both ends?" "Can I get a technical this game?" Cousins.

Jordan's edge on the glass isn't significant enough to make up for the edge edge that Cousins has ofensively. There's a major difference between a guy who can score from anywhere on the floor out to 18 feet and puts up a relatively efficient 24 points a game and a guy who gets the vast majority of his shots on lobs and offensive rebounds and scores 11 points a game. And, yeah, Jordan has a big edge on the defensive side of the ball. But I can get a replacement for Jordan who is capable of doing 70-80% of what Jordan can do for $7-8 million per year. I can't get an offensive big who can give me 70-80% of Cousins' production for that.

You are valuing one of his biggest weaknesses as if it was a strength. He makes 35% of his mid-range jumpshots. You like that 25% of his shots are from there??? He also is one of the worst players in the NBA at controlling possessions. He has 4.4 turnovers per game and 4.2 personal fouls for game. Those are two drastic negatives of his game that the average fan NEVER talks about. You put all those together in the package of a malcontent hot head and thats why they have a losing team every damn season. Give me Deandre Jordan.

mightybosstone
02-28-2015, 12:58 PM
You are valuing one of his biggest weaknesses as if it was a strength. He makes 35% of his mid-range jumpshots. You like that 25% of his shots are from there??? He also is one of the worst players in the NBA at controlling possessions. He has 4.4 turnovers per game and 4.2 personal fouls for game. Those are two drastic negatives of his game that the average fan NEVER talks about. You put all those together in the package of a malcontent hot head and thats why they have a losing team every damn season. Give me Deandre Jordan.

Oh, I never said he was a good mid-range shooter, but he's at least competent. And I can give him the ball in the low post with his back to the basket eight feet from the rim and expect him to get me two points on a fairly consistent basis. I can't do that with Jordan. If he's anywhere outside of five feet, it might as well be 25 feet. And then there's the free throw shooting. I don't understand why every team doesn't just immediately foul him as soon as he gets the ball in the paint.

But I also think it sort of depends on what you're looking for. If I'm starting a team tomorrow and I have no offensive weapons, give me the spectacular hothead with some holes in his game who can take over games and put up 25/10 fairly regularly. If I'm the Clippers and I already have two great offensive players and really just need a big man to lock down the paint and throw down the occasional dunk, obviously Jordan makes more sense for me.

Both guys could feasibly warrant the same contract from different teams. But if you're asking me who the more valuable or better overall player is, I'm taking Cousins and not thinking twice about it.

KnicksorBust
02-28-2015, 01:11 PM
You are valuing one of his biggest weaknesses as if it was a strength. He makes 35% of his mid-range jumpshots. You like that 25% of his shots are from there??? He also is one of the worst players in the NBA at controlling possessions. He has 4.4 turnovers per game and 4.2 personal fouls for game. Those are two drastic negatives of his game that the average fan NEVER talks about. You put all those together in the package of a malcontent hot head and thats why they have a losing team every damn season. Give me Deandre Jordan.

Oh, I never said he was a good mid-range shooter, but he's at least competent. And I can give him the ball in the low post with his back to the basket eight feet from the rim and expect him to get me two points on a fairly consistent basis. I can't do that with Jordan. If he's anywhere outside of five feet, it might as well be 25 feet. And then there's the free throw shooting. I don't understand why every team doesn't just immediately foul him as soon as he gets the ball in the paint.

But I also think it sort of depends on what you're looking for. If I'm starting a team tomorrow and I have no offensive weapons, give me the spectacular hothead with some holes in his game who can take over games and put up 25/10 fairly regularly. If I'm the Clippers and I already have two great offensive players and really just need a big man to lock down the paint and throw down the occasional dunk, obviously Jordan makes more sense for me.

Both guys could feasibly warrant the same contract from different teams. But if you're asking me who the more valuable or better overall player is, I'm taking Cousins and not thinking twice about it.

I completely disagree. I think he is far too enamored with his own perceived "skills." Let me try and dribble... let me try and create... let me try and shoot like Bosh or Aldridge...

nastynice
02-28-2015, 03:40 PM
DJ is definitely a beast, but can such a specialized player be a max player?? He certainly deserves a nice contract, but honestly I'd be a lil surprised if someone offered him max. I feel like the only touches he gets on offense are 2ft from the rim turn and layup or offensive boards. How is he as a passer? I never really paid attention..

Chronz
02-28-2015, 04:26 PM
DJ is definitely a beast, but can such a specialized player be a max player?? He certainly deserves a nice contract, but honestly I'd be a lil surprised if someone offered him max. I feel like the only touches he gets on offense are 2ft from the rim turn and layup or offensive boards. How is he as a passer? I never really paid attention..

Hes improving as a passer thats for sure, he had a nice lil touch back to CP3 that he wouldn't have made in Y3. The reason is precisely because he understands his specialized skillset. He doesn't waste time with the ball if he has no advantage to gain. He immediately looks for his teammates.

Hes worth whatever the market dictates. I wish we had a GM that could draft with the moneyball program in mind, but the biggest mistake he could make is letting DJ go. You max him out and dont think about your frontcourt for the next 5 years.

And yes, hes limited offensively, but given his shot selection and production, I'd argue that as a plus for him. Its not like you can find guys who can do what he does often. Particularly given his defensive ability. Outside of Tyson himself, who does that? Thats why I dont buy the arguments about finding 80% of his value in other contracts, hes the very best at what he does (outside of a handful elite) on a team that has been trying to land front court help for years. The chances of us finding that are slim to none. There is no package of players that would benefit our team more than DJ.

Chronz
02-28-2015, 04:30 PM
Oh, I never said he was a good mid-range shooter, but he's at least competent. And I can give him the ball in the low post with his back to the basket eight feet from the rim and expect him to get me two points on a fairly consistent basis. I can't do that with Jordan. If he's anywhere outside of five feet, it might as well be 25 feet. And then there's the free throw shooting. I don't understand why every team doesn't just immediately foul him as soon as he gets the ball in the paint.

But I also think it sort of depends on what you're looking for. If I'm starting a team tomorrow and I have no offensive weapons, give me the spectacular hothead with some holes in his game who can take over games and put up 25/10 fairly regularly. If I'm the Clippers and I already have two great offensive players and really just need a big man to lock down the paint and throw down the occasional dunk, obviously Jordan makes more sense for me.

Both guys could feasibly warrant the same contract from different teams. But if you're asking me who the more valuable or better overall player is, I'm taking Cousins and not thinking twice about it.

35% is competent? Is it really that low for him?

KnicksorBust
02-28-2015, 08:23 PM
Oh, I never said he was a good mid-range shooter, but he's at least competent. And I can give him the ball in the low post with his back to the basket eight feet from the rim and expect him to get me two points on a fairly consistent basis. I can't do that with Jordan. If he's anywhere outside of five feet, it might as well be 25 feet. And then there's the free throw shooting. I don't understand why every team doesn't just immediately foul him as soon as he gets the ball in the paint.

But I also think it sort of depends on what you're looking for. If I'm starting a team tomorrow and I have no offensive weapons, give me the spectacular hothead with some holes in his game who can take over games and put up 25/10 fairly regularly. If I'm the Clippers and I already have two great offensive players and really just need a big man to lock down the paint and throw down the occasional dunk, obviously Jordan makes more sense for me.

Both guys could feasibly warrant the same contract from different teams. But if you're asking me who the more valuable or better overall player is, I'm taking Cousins and not thinking twice about it.

35% is competent? Is it really that low for him?

Yeah right? Kids these days...

D-Leethal
02-28-2015, 10:04 PM
His ability to shoot still commands the respect of the defense which in turn opens up the court for the other 4 guys. Its still a valuable tool to have in your toolbox even if it doesn't look always pretty as far as how often you make them. Teams still have to honor his ability to shoot it. The same way LaMarcus Aldridge doesn't hit his mid range shots at a remarkable clip but his teams offense skyrockets when he is out there shooting them. Cousins ability to shoot and draw opposing Centers out of the paint has residual effects that go beyond his mid range FG%.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2015, 09:05 PM
His ability to shoot still commands the respect of the defense which in turn opens up the court for the other 4 guys. Its still a valuable tool to have in your toolbox even if it doesn't look always pretty as far as how often you make them. Teams still have to honor his ability to shoot it. The same way LaMarcus Aldridge doesn't hit his mid range shots at a remarkable clip but his teams offense skyrockets when he is out there shooting them. Cousins ability to shoot and draw opposing Centers out of the paint has residual effects that go beyond his mid range FG%.

I completely agree in the validity of your argument that big men who can shoot stretch the defense. However, Cousins is nowhere near as big a threat from the perimeter as Bosh or Aldridge. Aldridge hits almost 45% and shoots a much greater percentage of his shots from the mid-range. At the apex of the Heat's success Bosh was hitting over 50% from the midrange.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 04:12 AM
His ability to shoot still commands the respect of the defense which in turn opens up the court for the other 4 guys. Its still a valuable tool to have in your toolbox even if it doesn't look always pretty as far as how often you make them. Teams still have to honor his ability to shoot it. The same way LaMarcus Aldridge doesn't hit his mid range shots at a remarkable clip but his teams offense skyrockets when he is out there shooting them. Cousins ability to shoot and draw opposing Centers out of the paint has residual effects that go beyond his mid range FG%.

I question just how much attention it commands, seems to me like most teams freely give it to him and he struggles to convert at a high clip. Hes not like LMA or even Brandon Bass where if you leave him wide open hes going to hit at a rate that would hurt you. Hes at that point where hes still trying to make a weapon out of it but hes inconsistent at best with it.

Theres quite a difference when DMC is still shooting below 40% when you concede outlet jumpers to him whereas LMA is in the high 40's low 50's last I checked. LMA puts alot more pressure on you with his jumper, DMC doesn't really warp the floor from that position on the court.

valade16
03-02-2015, 11:04 AM
35% is competent? Is it really that low for him?

He was a 42% shooter from there last season and he is a 38% shooter from there in his career. Let's not act like the 35% number is his norm.

Chronz
03-02-2015, 12:11 PM
He was a 42% shooter from there last season and he is a 38% shooter from there in his career. Let's not act like the 35% number is his norm.

Whos acting like anything? I was asking a question.

valade16
03-02-2015, 12:28 PM
Whos acting like anything? I was asking a question.

Then I apologize, I quoted the wrong poster who was fixated on the 35% number. His career is 38% and last season was 42%.

I'm not quite sure why we are fixating on his jump shooting anyway, it's obvious Cousins is a vastly superior offensive player to Jordan in nearly every way. It's the rebounding and defense (and other off the court stuff) that makes this a comparison.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 01:59 PM
I question just how much attention it commands, seems to me like most teams freely give it to him and he struggles to convert at a high clip. Hes not like LMA or even Brandon Bass where if you leave him wide open hes going to hit at a rate that would hurt you. Hes at that point where hes still trying to make a weapon out of it but hes inconsistent at best with it.

Theres quite a difference when DMC is still shooting below 40% when you concede outlet jumpers to him whereas LMA is in the high 40's low 50's last I checked. LMA puts alot more pressure on you with his jumper, DMC doesn't really warp the floor from that position on the court.

You really go with Bass as your other example and not Bosh?

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 02:01 PM
Then I apologize, I quoted the wrong poster who was fixated on the 35% number. His career is 38% and last season was 42%.

I'm not quite sure why we are fixating on his jump shooting anyway, it's obvious Cousins is a vastly superior offensive player to Jordan in nearly every way. It's the rebounding and defense (and other off the court stuff) that makes this a comparison.

Not obvious to me at all. Because he takes more bad shots? Because he thinks he can shoot? Because he thinks he can dribble? Because he thinks he can pass? The things that separate him from DeAndre Jordan are the same things that make his offensive game less efficient and less valuable.

Sadly it's similar to the people that think Melo can be considered (one of) the best scorer in the league. Just because he is capable of doing everything doesn't mean he should be doing it at the level he does.

valade16
03-02-2015, 02:36 PM
Not obvious to me at all. Because he takes more bad shots? Because he thinks he can shoot? Because he thinks he can dribble? Because he thinks he can pass? The things that separate him from DeAndre Jordan are the same things that make his offensive game less efficient and less valuable.

Sadly it's similar to the people that think Melo can be considered (one of) the best scorer in the league. Just because he is capable of doing everything doesn't mean he should be doing it at the level he does.

Is is a better offensive player because DeAndre Jordan can only do 1 thing: put back and dunk. Cousins is superior to him at scoring in every way except grabbing someone else's miss and putting it back in.

There is not a single offensive skill Jordan is superior at to Cousins outside of putbacks and offensive rebounding. You can say Cousins takes bad shots. OK, but Jordan can't even take those shots.

The only reason his shooting numbers look so sterling is because he literally doesn't shoot. He averages 6.4 Shots in 34 MPG. If that number went up to 15 shots his efficiency would absolutely plummet like a rock. He is a very good one trick pony.

Let's put it this way, your team has a chance to be good if Cousins is your #1 offensive option. Your team does not even have a chance of winning the NCAA Tournamnet if Jordan is your #1 offensive option. Heck if you were going to assemble a team of NBA players where Jordan was the #1 offensive player on the team, could you? Seriously, could you find 4 other players to start that have less offensive skills than Jordan?

Chronz
03-02-2015, 03:17 PM
You really go with Bass as your other example and not Bosh?
Because it exemplifies two radically different players. Bosh and lma aren't as dissimilar

Chronz
03-02-2015, 03:21 PM
Is is a better offensive player because DeAndre Jordan can only do 1 thing: put back and dunk. Cousins is superior to him at scoring in every way except grabbing someone else's miss and putting it back in.

There is not a single offensive skill Jordan is superior at to Cousins outside of putbacks and offensive rebounding. You can say Cousins takes bad shots. OK, but Jordan can't even take those shots.

The only reason his shooting numbers look so sterling is because he literally doesn't shoot. He averages 6.4 Shots in 34 MPG. If that number went up to 15 shots his efficiency would absolutely plummet like a rock. He is a very good one trick pony.

Let's put it this way, your team has a chance to be good if Cousins is your #1 offensive option. Your team does not even have a chance of winning the NCAA Tournamnet if Jordan is your #1 offensive option. Heck if you were going to assemble a team of NBA players where Jordan was the #1 offensive player on the team, could you? Seriously, could you find 4 other players to start that have less offensive skills than Jordan?

Why does that matter tho? I'm on your side overall but if dmc were an afterthought in terms of his pecking order, could he replicate djs efficiency? Will elaborate once i can but i would argue skill isn't as important as talent

valade16
03-02-2015, 03:37 PM
Why does that matter tho? I'm on your side overall but if dmc were an afterthought in terms of his pecking order, could he replicate djs efficiency? Will elaborate once i can but i would argue skill isn't as important as talent

Matter in the context of what? I was simply responding to the idea that Jordan is possibly (or even close) to the offensive player Cousins is.

Could DMC replicate Jordan's efficiency? Perhaps not to the exact same level but I'm sure if he actually was focused on playing only Jordan's role he could do that very well. The biggest difference is Jordan simply can't even do Cousins role. Not like mentally, but he simply doesn't have the skills to do Cousins role.

THE MTL
03-02-2015, 03:47 PM
He can anchor a defense but DJ isnt even your second best player on a championship team. Sure he'll get the max with the way the market is set.

However if a team is willing to give him a max I predict a drop off in production much like Tysom Chandler when he went to Charlotte.

Long story short......stay with Chris Paul!

D-Leethal
03-02-2015, 04:08 PM
You don't think if Cousins was warped into the mindset of Jordan - i.e. not being asked to take any shots that isn't a slam dunk - he couldn't replicate his efficiency? That is laughable if you ask me. Not saying he would accept that role or that a coach would ask him to be so limited in his offensive opportunity, but given his overall offensive talent if he wasn't asked to try and produce points that weren't dunks or put backs he could easily be as efficient. He is too good for a coach to ask him to water his game down to that extent though.

Offensively, Cousins could easily adapt to Jordan's role (if we ignore his mindset and mentality and pretend he was willing to do it), Jordan would never, ever be able to come close to producing in Cousins role.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 06:23 PM
Matter in the context of what? I was simply responding to the idea that Jordan is possibly (or even close) to the offensive player Cousins is.

Could DMC replicate Jordan's efficiency? Perhaps not to the exact same level but I'm sure if he actually was focused on playing only Jordan's role he could do that very well. The biggest difference is Jordan simply can't even do Cousins role. Not like mentally, but he simply doesn't have the skills to do Cousins role.

Of course Cousin's couldn't replicate Jordan's efficiency. If Jordan's career ended now he would go down as one of the 1 most efficient players in NBA History. Cousin's doesn't have his athleticism or drive to methodically attack the rim like he does.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 06:24 PM
You don't think if Cousins was warped into the mindset of Jordan - i.e. not being asked to take any shots that isn't a slam dunk - he couldn't replicate his efficiency? That is laughable if you ask me. Not saying he would accept that role or that a coach would ask him to be so limited in his offensive opportunity, but given his overall offensive talent if he wasn't asked to try and produce points that weren't dunks or put backs he could easily be as efficient. He is too good for a coach to ask him to water his game down to that extent though.

Offensively, Cousins could easily adapt to Jordan's role (if we ignore his mindset and mentality and pretend he was willing to do it), Jordan would never, ever be able to come close to producing in Cousins role.

D, this is absurd. How can you even suggest ignoring those things? Look at the excuses you have to make for him just to keep the argument going. "If he played hard, he'd be awesome." Too bad he doesn't.

valade16
03-02-2015, 06:32 PM
Of course Cousin's couldn't replicate Jordan's efficiency. If Jordan's career ended now he would go down as one of the 1 most efficient players in NBA History. Cousin's doesn't have his athleticism or drive to methodically attack the rim like he does.

I think he could come close. If Cousins did only DeAndre's role and simply put back rebounded shots or dunked and never took shots outside 3 feet or looked for his own shot, I bet his FG% would be close to DeAndre's. In fact, it wouldn't have to be close, because even if he shot 10% worse he'd make up the efficiency on his vastly superior FT shooting.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2015, 06:35 PM
I think he could come close. If Cousins did only DeAndre's role and simply put back rebounded shots or dunked and never took shots outside 3 feet or looked for his own shot, I bet his FG% would be close to DeAndre's. In fact, it wouldn't have to be close, because even if he shot 10% worse he'd make up the efficiency on his vastly superior FT shooting.

Do you honestly think Cousins is as athletic as DeAndre Jordan?

valade16
03-02-2015, 06:57 PM
Do you honestly think Cousins is as athletic as DeAndre Jordan?

No but he is way more skilled. I'm fairly confident Cousins could perform Jordan's role way easier than Jordan could perform Cousins'.

Cousin has been in the Top 10 in RBD% 4 times (3/4 he was Top 5). He can rebound and could easily score at an efficient rate if he confined himself to only doing what DeAndre does.

D-Leethal
03-02-2015, 08:35 PM
D, this is absurd. How can you even suggest ignoring those things? Look at the excuses you have to make for him just to keep the argument going. "If he played hard, he'd be awesome." Too bad he doesn't.

I am not making excuses, I am speaking in hypotheticals. I am saying Cousins, like any other well rounded offensive player in the NBA, would have a hard time accepting dumbing down his game to suit a role of nothing more than a put back specialist and screen setter offensively. But if he were willing to do that, he most certainly could. Kobe in his prime would have been an epic 3 and D guy, but he would never accept that. But he could certainly be efficient as hell if you programmed his head in that way. If Cousins was never asked to produce points in 1 on 1 scenarios, in the post, with his jumper and was asked to feast off put backs and catches under the rim, he would certainly be able to do it at a hyper-efficient level.

Your efficiency is a direct product of what you are asked to do on the court. Guys asked to do very little, who are not asked to touch the ball unless its right underneath the rim, are usually good at doing that very little in an efficient manner. Once your expected workload rises and becomes more dynamic, i.e. you are asked to score from various areas on the court, in various different ways, your efficiency usually takes a hit as a result. Doesn't make the guy asked to do far less the better offensive player because he can perform his minimized role more efficiently.

A quality coach that can gameplan for a playoff series against DeAndre Jordan can develop a scheme to make him damn near useless over a 7 game stretch because he doesn't have a robust skillset to adapt his game to different defensive looks or overcome sound defensive strategy.

Mr.B
03-02-2015, 09:29 PM
Am I the only one that thinks his already limited offensive game takes a huge hit if he leaves the likes of CP3? He needs to play with a pg that can throw lob passes. I just remember chandler being super ineffective on the offensive end after leaving Paul, then coming back to form with j Kidd in Dallas.

My thoughts exactly. He's basically a younger version of Tyson Chandler. Great defender, great rebounder, limited offensively. He needs to be on a team with a great PG and a lot of offensive weapons (like he already is). Now to the Clippers he worthy of a max contract because his skills are exactly what they need. To a team like the Lakers for example there is no way he'd be worth the max.

Cracka2HI!
03-02-2015, 11:35 PM
To compare DJ and Cousins as offensive players isn't fair for either guy. On the Clippers DJ is probably the ideal Center. He sets amazing screens, does that count as offensive skill? Is Cousins willing/able to throw screens? I don't know. I don't think the Clippers would be a better team with Cousins nor do I think the Kings would be better with DJ. DJ is clearly the better athlete, Cousins is clearly more skilled. I doubt Cousins could ever come close to DJ's efficiency. DJ does nothing on offense to try to score for himself. He never takes a bad shot and rarely turns the ball over. It's really an impossible task to ask almost any NBA player. His complete lack of skill coming into the league along with his willingness and ability to become a dominant force none the less is something that is rarely seen in the league. He also happened to fall into a perfect position for a player like him. Cousins has become a dominant scorer on a terrible team. DJ will most likely never reach that level. I think at this point it's clear that DJ can be a 2nd or 3rd piece on a championship type team in the right situation. Can Cousins do that? That's my comparison.

valade16
03-03-2015, 11:04 AM
To compare DJ and Cousins as offensive players isn't fair for either guy. On the Clippers DJ is probably the ideal Center. He sets amazing screens, does that count as offensive skill? Is Cousins willing/able to throw screens? I don't know. I don't think the Clippers would be a better team with Cousins nor do I think the Kings would be better with DJ. DJ is clearly the better athlete, Cousins is clearly more skilled. I doubt Cousins could ever come close to DJ's efficiency. DJ does nothing on offense to try to score for himself. He never takes a bad shot and rarely turns the ball over. It's really an impossible task to ask almost any NBA player. His complete lack of skill coming into the league along with his willingness and ability to become a dominant force none the less is something that is rarely seen in the league. He also happened to fall into a perfect position for a player like him. Cousins has become a dominant scorer on a terrible team. DJ will most likely never reach that level. I think at this point it's clear that DJ can be a 2nd or 3rd piece on a championship type team in the right situation. Can Cousins do that? That's my comparison.

He absolutely would come close to DeAndre Jordan's efficiency simply because Jordan is a terrible FT shooter. He takes 6 shots and 5 FTs a game.

Consider his FG% is like 72% and his TS% is 65%. That's a steep drop. So while Cousins probably wouldn't make 72% of his FGs, he wouldn't have to. Even making 60%+ coupled with his vastly superior FT shooting would get him at Jordan's efficiency.

KnicksorBust
03-03-2015, 01:54 PM
He absolutely would come close to DeAndre Jordan's efficiency simply because Jordan is a terrible FT shooter. He takes 6 shots and 5 FTs a game.

Consider his FG% is like 72% and his TS% is 65%. That's a steep drop. So while Cousins probably wouldn't make 72% of his FGs, he wouldn't have to. Even making 60%+ coupled with his vastly superior FT shooting would get him at Jordan's efficiency.

The FT percentage argument is a strong one when comparing efficiency. I still disagree but it's a great point. :)

Who do you feel is more valuable defensively?

Chronz
03-04-2015, 04:50 AM
Matter in the context of what? I was simply responding to the idea that Jordan is possibly (or even close) to the offensive player Cousins is.

Could DMC replicate Jordan's efficiency? Perhaps not to the exact same level but I'm sure if he actually was focused on playing only Jordan's role he could do that very well. The biggest difference is Jordan simply can't even do Cousins role. Not like mentally, but he simply doesn't have the skills to do Cousins role.

I think that highly of Cousins. I do think he could approximate the role but Im not 100% sold on it. Hes not as great on the offensive glass IMO, I've seen some pretty drastic conversions when bigs focus more on off the ball stuff but I cant think of any drastic enough to make him the superior boardman. Hes definitely a load that has to be doubled but hes not the finisher DJ is once hes actually at the rim off those boards, he doesn't set the same kind of screens either IMO. I dont think its unreasonable to suggest its an argument worth having. DJ doesn't have to carry the same load to have a superior offensive impact.

Thats my line of thinking, but that goes more with Vucevic types, Cousins has too much skill and an already potent offensive impact for me not to give him the edge. I just dont agree with the notion that its not a conversation worth having.

KnicksorBust
03-04-2015, 01:51 PM
I think that highly of Cousins. I do think he could approximate the role but Im not 100% sold on it. Hes not as great on the offensive glass IMO, I've seen some pretty drastic conversions when bigs focus more on off the ball stuff but I cant think of any drastic enough to make him the superior boardman. Hes definitely a load that has to be doubled but hes not the finisher DJ is once hes actually at the rim off those boards, he doesn't set the same kind of screens either IMO. I dont think its unreasonable to suggest its an argument worth having. DJ doesn't have to carry the same load to have a superior offensive impact.

Thats my line of thinking, but that goes more with Vucevic types, Cousins has too much skill and an already potent offensive impact for me not to give him the edge. I just dont agree with the notion that its not a conversation worth having.

How would you compare their value defensively?

valade16
03-04-2015, 02:27 PM
I think that highly of Cousins. I do think he could approximate the role but Im not 100% sold on it. Hes not as great on the offensive glass IMO, I've seen some pretty drastic conversions when bigs focus more on off the ball stuff but I cant think of any drastic enough to make him the superior boardman. Hes definitely a load that has to be doubled but hes not the finisher DJ is once hes actually at the rim off those boards, he doesn't set the same kind of screens either IMO. I dont think its unreasonable to suggest its an argument worth having. DJ doesn't have to carry the same load to have a superior offensive impact.

Thats my line of thinking, but that goes more with Vucevic types, Cousins has too much skill and an already potent offensive impact for me not to give him the edge. I just dont agree with the notion that its not a conversation worth having.

I think the debate worth having is who is more valuable to an offense based on the role they play in one, but not in terms of who is actually better offensively.

My friend plays Dodgeball and he has a teammate who is actually terrible at all the traditional skills needed to be good at dodgeball but he explained that he values him as a teammate over many others who are actually better at dodgeball because he knows his role. He never throws the ball at the opposition and he always stays in front of the better players on his team and even passes them any balls he picks up. He is valuable because he is a shield and a feeder for the better players. So my friend would rather have him on his team as opposed to someone clearly better at dodgeball but who wouldn't pass the ball the best thrower and who wouldn't act as a shield or generally play within their role/talent level.

I feel that is the same debate here. Cousins is a better offensive player than Cousins. He is just better at virtually every skill on offense. But is he more valuable because of the role he would assume vs the role Jordan would assume? That is the debate to me. Cousins is incredibly valuable in his role because he is very good at only those things on offense.

But he would not be very effective in any other role. Cousins is better and more versatile because he has the skillset to play in virtually any role on offense however he isn't necessarily more valuable because he likely wouldn't play in those roles, he would demand more shots than his efficiency dictates he should get. So in that sense, yes it's a debate.

flea
03-04-2015, 02:40 PM
How would you compare their value defensively?

Wasn't addressed to me but it's an ongoing discussion so I'll give what I think. The edge, to me, goes to Jordan - but it's a lot closer than one might think based on reputations. First I'll mention rebounding, at least DReb, which is part of playing defense. They're fairly equal over the last couple of years there. Now offensive rebounding is definitely an edge for Jordan, but I consider that part of the offensive package since positioning is so important for that (and it's hard to be in good position when you're your team's #1 offensive weapon).

Rim protection? Stats have them pretty close. Cousins is a just a hair better on a rate basis, but they allow basically the same amount of FGM this season. Last season it was Jordan that was better by a bigger margin, but neither guy seems truly great. They are both well above average though - which I consider to be around 51% for bigs with meaningful minutes (by my sample, at least 3 FGA at the rim per game and at least 25 minutes per game).

RPM likes Cousins a lot for whatever reason, and DBPM has Cousins at 3.2 to Jordan's 3.0. I factor in team defense as well, since bigs are so important for that, and the Clips are 15th to Kings 22nd in adjusted defensive rating. Neither is particularly inspiring but neither has any kind of defensive support like teams such as the Bucks, Blazers, or Rockets do on the perimeter. The Clips do have a pretty high-IQ roster, though, and that can cover up a lot (look at what the Hawks are doing while being undersized at virtually every position except SF).

So overall, it looks pretty close to me. I don't have P&R data but my hunch is they're around equal. Jordan is more athletic but I think he gets lost more often than you'd like when pulled away from the hoop. Cousins has definitely upped his numbers this season - both in rim protection and RPM - but his team hasn't quite come around to respectable levels.

Chronz
03-04-2015, 03:00 PM
I think the debate worth having is who is more valuable to an offense based on the role they play in one, but not in terms of who is actually better offensively.
Again, Im on your side of the fence but for the sake of argument, lets say DMC was incapable of replicating Jordan's damn near historical level of efficiency, then why wouldn't that distinguish DJ's offense? Better offense is pretty concrete, if you talk more varied offensive skill then its not up for debate.
DMC is better in my eyes, Im just saying if it was proven impossible, there is offensive talent in that.

I only wonder just how much DJ could score if given this Blakeless window. I remember a certain someone *cough d-lee* trying to tell me he would be exposed if he was without Blake's scoring. Instead, we've seen guys simply use more possessions and not lose any in the way of efficiency. Good sign, I just wonder how sustainable it is.




How would you compare their value defensively?

Have to see Cousins in the right environment to truly judge, his D slipped once the team stopped being competitive. The guy has stretches of 2-way dominance not seen since Shaq. DJ is such an enigma, since Blake's been out hes focused even more on his defensive attention. He locked down the Gasols recently but I remember him doing that his 3rd year or so and then getting torched come playoffs. Heres hoping for more consistency this year.

DJ has the edge.

Sactown
03-04-2015, 03:06 PM
Again, Im on your side of the fence but for the sake of argument, lets say DMC was incapable of replicating Jordan's damn near historical level of efficiency, then why wouldn't that distinguish DJ's offense? Better offense is pretty concrete, if you talk more varied offensive skill then its not up for debate.
DMC is better in my eyes, Im just saying if it was proven impossible, there is offensive talent in that.

I only wonder just how much DJ could score if given this Blakeless window. I remember a certain someone *cough d-lee* trying to tell me he would be exposed if he was without Blake's scoring. Instead, we've seen guys simply use more possessions and not lose any in the way of efficiency. Good sign, I just wonder how sustainable it is.





Have to see Cousins in the right environment to truly judge, his D slipped once the team stopped being competitive. The guy has stretches of 2-way dominance not seen since Shaq. DJ is such an enigma, since Blake's been out hes focused even more on his defensive attention. He locked down the Gasols recently but I remember him doing that his 3rd year or so and then getting torched come playoffs. Heres hoping for more consistency this year.

DJ has the edge.

Too be fair he's defense slipped when his defensive minded head coach was fired, and they brought on a horrible coach in Corbin... Not like Cousins was like **** it we suck I won't play hard anymore lol...

Its hard to maintain good defensive numbers when you play for such a poor team, there were times this season when Jason Thompson was benched (not a good defender ) for Derrick Williams at the 4 ( horrendous defender) and Omri Casspi (almost out of the league ) is getting 24+ minutes a game.. Ramon Sessions started multiple games and played plenty of minutes whose garbage.. we had a D league guy play a good amount of minutes for awhile?

The Kings role players are below mediocre at best


Also its a lot easier to score at a high efficiency when you have CP3 carving up the paint and setting you up.... We have Sessions and BMac and Collison making trying to set up DMC... Let alone the fact that we are one of the worst three point shooting teams in the league , allowing teams to dip under screens and force someone else to do anything ...

KnicksorBust
03-04-2015, 03:34 PM
Too be fair he's defense slipped when his defensive minded head coach was fired, and they brought on a horrible coach in Corbin... Not like Cousins was like **** it we suck I won't play hard anymore lol...

Its hard to maintain good defensive numbers when you play for such a poor team, there were times this season when Jason Thompson was benched (not a good defender ) for Derrick Williams at the 4 ( horrendous defender) and Omri Casspi (almost out of the league ) is getting 24+ minutes a game.. Ramon Sessions started multiple games and played plenty of minutes whose garbage.. we had a D league guy play a good amount of minutes for awhile?

The Kings role players are below mediocre at best


Also its a lot easier to score at a high efficiency when you have CP3 carving up the paint and setting you up.... We have Sessions and BMac and Collison making trying to set up DMC... Let alone the fact that we are one of the worst three point shooting teams in the league , allowing teams to dip under screens and force someone else to do anything ...

Tyson Chandler was able to score at a high efficiency with Raymond Felton running the point in NY.

Sactown
03-04-2015, 03:44 PM
Tyson Chandler was able to score at a high efficiency with Raymond Felton running the point in NY.

Don't be silly... Clearly Tyson Chandler was not NYs #1 option...

KnicksorBust
03-04-2015, 03:45 PM
Don't be silly... Clearly Tyson Chandler was not NYs #1 option...

You are blaming lack of PG play on his shortcomings... :confused:

Sactown
03-04-2015, 08:13 PM
You are blaming lack of PG play on his shortcomings... :confused:

What short cummings? If he was a guy who just shot at the basket when he was open or was thrown a lob too with a PG of the caliber of CP3 would he be more efficient?? Absolutely , would his defensive metrics be better if they hadn't fired Malone and played Derrick Williams at the 4?? No ****...

Those are obvious...

Cracka2HI!
03-04-2015, 10:59 PM
I think the debate worth having is who is more valuable to an offense based on the role they play in one, but not in terms of who is actually better offensively.

My friend plays Dodgeball and he has a teammate who is actually terrible at all the traditional skills needed to be good at dodgeball but he explained that he values him as a teammate over many others who are actually better at dodgeball because he knows his role. He never throws the ball at the opposition and he always stays in front of the better players on his team and even passes them any balls he picks up. He is valuable because he is a shield and a feeder for the better players. So my friend would rather have him on his team as opposed to someone clearly better at dodgeball but who wouldn't pass the ball the best thrower and who wouldn't act as a shield or generally play within their role/talent level.

I feel that is the same debate here. Cousins is a better offensive player than Cousins. He is just better at virtually every skill on offense. But is he more valuable because of the role he would assume vs the role Jordan would assume? That is the debate to me. Cousins is incredibly valuable in his role because he is very good at only those things on offense.

But he would not be very effective in any other role. Cousins is better and more versatile because he has the skillset to play in virtually any role on offense however he isn't necessarily more valuable because he likely wouldn't play in those roles, he would demand more shots than his efficiency dictates he should get. So in that sense, yes it's a debate.

I actually like the Dodgeball analogy a lot. It makes perfect sense. DJ is just like the guy who plays as a shield and hands off the ball to the best thrower. If they played 1 on 1 it would be a joke. DJ may not even be able to dribble the ball from the top of the key to the hoop on Cousins and obviously Cousins would find plenty of ways to score on DJ. It is an interesting debate for sure because DJ is emerging as a dominant player on a great team despite having literally almost no offensive skill at all. Cousins has always had the ability to dominate but always for terrible teams. Like I said I would take DJ for the Clippers but that doesn't mean he is a better player. The consensus is that Cousins is the better all around player but the consensus about DJ is on the rise.

Chronz
03-04-2015, 11:33 PM
Would you guys take DJ or Whiteside moving forward?

I think I woudl take Whiteside.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2015, 11:54 PM
Would you guys take DJ or Whiteside moving forward?

I think I woudl take Whiteside.

Small sample. DJ has nearly two full seasons now of this level of production, Whiteside has what 25 games?

FlashBolt
03-05-2015, 03:09 AM
I'm taking DJ. I don't think teams just care enough to stop Whiteside.

Chronz
03-05-2015, 03:43 AM
Small sample. DJ has nearly two full seasons now of this level of production, Whiteside has what 25 games?

Definitely a safer bet but to be fair, Whiteside isn't putting up "this level of production", hes putting up even greater numbers, albeit in limited minutes. Hes also got a great touch around the rim from what I've seen. Could be the next Bynum.

Munkeysuit
03-05-2015, 04:11 AM
Give him the ball in the post and let him go to work, THEN decide if he's worth even 6mil a season.

valade16
03-05-2015, 10:12 AM
Last night my team (the Blazers) demonstrated the severe shortcoming in the game. The Blazers came back and won because they intentionally fouled DeAndre and he missed 6 straight FTs. That part of his game is so bad it renders him not only useless at the end of games, but actually detrimental to his team.

We simply cannot discuss DeAndre without talking about his dreadful FT shooting.

Clippersfan86
03-05-2015, 10:38 AM
Definitely a safer bet but to be fair, Whiteside isn't putting up "this level of production", hes putting up even greater numbers, albeit in limited minutes. Hes also got a great touch around the rim from what I've seen. Could be the next Bynum.

Yea, obviously if it's not a fluke Whiteside due to far superior offensive game.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 11:07 AM
Again, Im on your side of the fence but for the sake of argument, lets say DMC was incapable of replicating Jordan's damn near historical level of efficiency, then why wouldn't that distinguish DJ's offense? Better offense is pretty concrete, if you talk more varied offensive skill then its not up for debate.
DMC is better in my eyes, Im just saying if it was proven impossible, there is offensive talent in that.

I only wonder just how much DJ could score if given this Blakeless window. I remember a certain someone *cough d-lee* trying to tell me he would be exposed if he was without Blake's scoring. Instead, we've seen guys simply use more possessions and not lose any in the way of efficiency. Good sign, I just wonder how sustainable it is.





Have to see Cousins in the right environment to truly judge, his D slipped once the team stopped being competitive. The guy has stretches of 2-way dominance not seen since Shaq. DJ is such an enigma, since Blake's been out hes focused even more on his defensive attention. He locked down the Gasols recently but I remember him doing that his 3rd year or so and then getting torched come playoffs. Heres hoping for more consistency this year.

DJ has the edge.

All I see is a rebounding machine who can barely get off 6 FGA per game of late despite averaging close to 6 offensive boards. Thats kind of pathetic. Not to mention 48 FTA in the past 4 games while making 30% of them.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 11:14 AM
At the end of the day, what good is your efficiency if you can't even get off shot attempts when you are being defended? He isn't gonna be getting a slew of lob dunks in the playoffs, I think we can all attest to that. You can easily design schemes to completely shut down a guy like DeAndre offensively in the playoffs, with 7 games and 2 weeks to gameplan for it.

Chronz
03-05-2015, 11:16 AM
All I see is a rebounding machine who can barely get off 6 FGA per game of late despite averaging close to 6 offensive boards. Thats kind of pathetic. Not to mention 48 FTA in the past 4 games while making 30% of them.

Which is more than he put up when he had Blake around, wasn't that entirely your point? That he would be exposed and the team would suffer some catastrophic dropoff offensively that would render Vuce a higher impact offensive player. Yet here we are

Not seeing what makes it pathetic either, not when it comes with 14.9PPG and opens up the floor for the rest of his teams league leading offense.

Whats his ft% got to do with anything, his ft woes exist regardless of whos around him so it really doesnt need to be mentioned, as it has nothing to do with the actual discussion we were having about DJ's potential impact on a team without Blake. Ill take that as yet another white flag, man I've been crushing you PSD'ers

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 11:22 AM
Which is more than he put up when he had Blake around, wasn't that entirely your point? That he would be exposed and the team would suffer some catastrophic dropoff offensively that would render Vuce a higher impact offensive player. Yet here we are

Not seeing what makes it pathetic either, not when it comes with 14.9PPG and opens up the floor for the rest of his teams league leading offense.

Whats his ft% got to do with anything, his ft woes exist regardless of whos around him so it really doesnt need to be mentioned, as it has nothing to do with the actual discussion we were having about DJ's potential impact on a team without Blake. Ill take that as yet another white flag, man I've been crushing you PSD'ers

I think a guy not being able to get off more than 6 FGAs is being exposed considering Blake and his 18 FGA are no longer there. This offensively efficient machine can't up his shot attempts when 18 of them are up for grabs in the frontcourt? I think that is being exposed - he is what he is - a guy who can get 4 dunks a game despite getting close to 6 offensive boards and if he needs to up his production when his front court scoring mate goes down, he can't. He is severely limited in what he can do offensively and does not have the ability to elevate his game and production despite a ton of shots being up for grabs.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 11:24 AM
Blakes 8 boards up for grabs - what does DJ do? Get close to 8 more boards per game.

Blakes 18 FGA up for grabs - what does DJ do? Absolutely nothing.

Why? Because he is a great rebounder, not a great offensive player.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 11:26 AM
And I threw in the FTA because my underlying point in this thread and the reason I posted in it was to explain DJ sucks on offense, despite the false conclusions you are drawing from his stats.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 11:30 AM
Also only takes a quick basketball reference search to confirm my theory that teams will take away the lob and in turn, take away DJ's only offensive skill in the playoffs, where his shot attempts drop 33% (from 6 to 4, lolz). Some offensive stud!

Chronz
03-05-2015, 11:59 AM
Also only takes a quick basketball reference search to confirm my theory that teams will take away the lob and in turn, take away DJ's only offensive skill in the playoffs, where his shot attempts drop 33% (from 6 to 4, lolz). Some offensive stud!
To be fair, hes never played at this level before and hes not the only kind of bigman to lose productive value come playoffs.


Blakes 8 boards up for grabs - what does DJ do? Get close to 8 more boards per game.

Blakes 18 FGA up for grabs - what does DJ do? Absolutely nothing.

Why? Because he is a great rebounder, not a great offensive player.
But he is a great offensive player, its why nobody else can do what hes been doing. And your claim about him being exposed without Blake hasn't held up, hes raised his production and scoring rate significantly.


At the end of the day, what good is your efficiency if you can't even get off shot attempts when you are being defended? He isn't gonna be getting a slew of lob dunks in the playoffs, I think we can all attest to that. You can easily design schemes to completely shut down a guy like DeAndre offensively in the playoffs, with 7 games and 2 weeks to gameplan for it.

Seems to be true. Im hoping that wont be the case this year but yea, you prolly right on that mark.


I think a guy not being able to get off more than 6 FGAs is being exposed considering Blake and his 18 FGA are no longer there. This offensively efficient machine can't up his shot attempts when 18 of them are up for grabs in the frontcourt? I think that is being exposed - he is what he is - a guy who can get 4 dunks a game despite getting close to 6 offensive boards and if he needs to up his production when his front court scoring mate goes down, he can't. He is severely limited in what he can do offensively and does not have the ability to elevate his game and production despite a ton of shots being up for grabs.
How is it being exposed when its come with an increased scoring rate? Im not seeing how he cant when hes done just that and the team hasn't fallen off without this crutch you insisted was the reason he was able to be so efficient.
And its not about getting shots up, its about helping the TEAMS OFFENSE.


And I threw in the FTA because my underlying point in this thread and the reason I posted in it was to explain DJ sucks on offense, despite the false conclusions you are drawing from his stats.
Except your the only one drawing false conclusions because he actually doesn't suck on offense, hes actually one of the biggest reasons why his team is elite offensively. Him stepping up his game on offense is one of the reasons why Blake's loss has been mitigated. Blake obviously makes the team better but I dont see DJ getting exposed like you said he would, hes in fact raised his game.

And not seeing what the FT attempts have to do with anything. You may have a point but can you explain how its a differentiating factor in the "with Blake, without Blake" argument you were making.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 12:07 PM
You wanna know why his scoring rate went up? It certainly isn't from made FGs. Dude is getting close to 20 FTA per game! Even if you only hit 1/3 of them your scoring is gonna go up dude.

Jordan is not a great offensive player, sorry man. Plenty of guys COULD do what he does if they were asked to. Nobody is going to ask great offensive players to water there game down that much.

You don't think Andre Drummond could do what Jordan does if he only took 6 shots a game?

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 12:08 PM
Ok - you got me. Blake and his 18 FGA went out, DJ was still able to get his 4 dunks a game. NOT EXPOSED. Feel free to take that W, not sure why'd you even want it.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 12:10 PM
Jordan has a particular body and skillset - but it seems to me a lot of guys who are monster targets and can overpower you in the paint can do what Jordan does. Dwight - Tyson - Drummond come to mind. Limited in offensive talent, not asked to create buckets that aren't a slam dunk. Thing is - seems Jordan is the most limited, so he takes the least shots, and his efficiency represents that.

valade16
03-05-2015, 12:13 PM
You wanna know why his scoring rate went up? It certainly isn't from made FGs. Dude is getting close to 20 FTA per game! Even if you only hit 1/3 of them your scoring is gonna go up dude.

Jordan is not a great offensive player, sorry man. Plenty of guys COULD do what he does if they were asked to. Nobody is going to ask great offensive players to water there game down that much.

You don't think Andre Drummond could do what Jordan does if he only took 6 shots a game?

Andre Drummond essentially did his first 2 seasons. He shot 60%+ from the field and took less than 10 shots. His TS% was 57.8 and 59.9%, fairly close to DeAndre's (60.6% and 63%). But Drummond is a flawed example because he is equally as terrible as Jordan at FT shooting.

That's the thing about the Cousins to Jordan comparison. Cousins is a vastly better FT shooter. Imagine if Jordan could hit 75% of his FTs. His TS% would likely be the best ever. So if you took 6 high % shots a game as Jordan does but could hit FTs, even if your FG% wasn't nearly as good as Jordan's, you'd have equal or higher efficiency.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 12:13 PM
And you certainly can't tell me with a straight face if Cousins and Vucevic were only asked to shoot their 6 easiest looks each game and erase the rest, they couldn't hit 4 of them.

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 12:14 PM
^^^ Looks like Valade made the same point at the same time.

Chronz
03-05-2015, 12:29 PM
Definitely not vuce. Ttyl tho

D-Leethal
03-05-2015, 12:36 PM
Definitely not vuce. Ttyl tho

Nice chat bru. G'day.

Chronz
03-06-2015, 01:05 PM
You wanna know why his scoring rate went up? It certainly isn't from made FGs. Dude is getting close to 20 FTA per game! Even if you only hit 1/3 of them your scoring is gonna go up dude.
Yeah, and hes getting fouled more than before in part because Blake is out. Hes getting the same duck-ins/early deep touches that Blake used to get.


Jordan is not a great offensive player, sorry man. Plenty of guys COULD do what he does if they were asked to. Nobody is going to ask great offensive players to water there game down that much.
Not buying it, gotta see this great list of yours before I comment but overall, there simply arent as many athletes that can do the things he can, certainly not with his level of efficiency. They all have some kind of weakness to their game that prevents them from doing so. The ones that can somewhat approximate his efficiency, like Dwight, lack the intelligence to stop demanding post touches or have this unwavering faith that their bodies will recover. I hope he does BTW.


You don't think Andre Drummond could do what Jordan does if he only took 6 shots a game?
**** yea, Drummonds a beast but they are going a different route with him right now. They are developing his post game to a degree we failed with DJ (he really was showing improvement by Y3) because we needed to start winning ASAP. Detroit has time to experiment but so far this year the experiment has failed. Im certain that by the time Drummond hits his stride, he will be far more than DJ offensively, if he doesn't become that guy then his worst case scenario will probably be DJ right now. If anyone will realize which way to best utilize future Drummond, its SVG. Hes got the perfect offense for rim rushers and he had to deal with Dwights love for the ball for years in Orlando. I have hopes that Drummond can be the next combo attacking big, a guy with both post moves AND understanding of how to set picks and attack.


Ok - you got me. Blake and his 18 FGA went out, DJ was still able to get his 4 dunks a game. NOT EXPOSED. Feel free to take that W, not sure why'd you even want it.
Not only was he not exposed, but the kid upped his game and despite thea team missing all those fga, the teams offense has hummed along because of his added aggression.
Thats why its also about how hes getting those dunks, before he would catch alot more lobs from Blake and had it abit easier, now hes being more aggressive and forcing teams to foul him outside of simple Hack-A-DJ tactics.


Jordan has a particular body and skillset - but it seems to me a lot of guys who are monster targets and can overpower you in the paint can do what Jordan does. Dwight - Tyson - Drummond come to mind. Limited in offensive talent, not asked to create buckets that aren't a slam dunk. Thing is - seems Jordan is the most limited, so he takes the least shots, and his efficiency represents that.
Tyson Chandler is still the best at it, yes. Dwight should be able to, if he ever gets healthy and/or drops the mindset that dominating the ball helps his team. So 3 players (more like 2.5 considering Dwights inconsistency) and thats alot of players? I only think dominant finishers with great offensive rebounding instincts and the understanding of how to set great picks can do it.


Andre Drummond essentially did his first 2 seasons. He shot 60%+ from the field and took less than 10 shots. His TS% was 57.8 and 59.9%, fairly close to DeAndre's (60.6% and 63%). But Drummond is a flawed example because he is equally as terrible as Jordan at FT shooting.
Hes a great example.


That's the thing about the Cousins to Jordan comparison. Cousins is a vastly better FT shooter. Imagine if Jordan could hit 75% of his FTs. His TS% would likely be the best ever. So if you took 6 high % shots a game as Jordan does but could hit FTs, even if your FG% wasn't nearly as good as Jordan's, you'd have equal or higher efficiency.
Thats abit vague, 6 high% shots for different players vary. And ft rates to go with those shots vary just as frequently. You can be 90% free throw shooter, take 6 high% shots and STILL have lesser offensive efficiency than DJ. Thats why its too vague to really assess.

Chronz
03-06-2015, 01:07 PM
And you certainly can't tell me with a straight face if Cousins and Vucevic were only asked to shoot their 6 easiest looks each game and erase the rest, they couldn't hit 4 of them.

I certainly can, hes not nearly the finisher inside and hes definitely not going to draw enough fouls to offset that. Hes also sets weaker picks and isn't close to being an offensive rebounder (thats a HUGE element of DJ's efficiency).

valade16
03-06-2015, 05:16 PM
Thats abit vague, 6 high% shots for different players vary. And ft rates to go with those shots vary just as frequently. You can be 90% free throw shooter, take 6 high% shots and STILL have lesser offensive efficiency than DJ. Thats why its too vague to really assess.

If there was a way to do the math we could resolve this. I wonder how much worse DeAndre's FG% could get if his FT% were at 75% like Cousins' and maintain his same TS% (based on the same number of FGs and FTs).

Chronz
03-06-2015, 05:18 PM
Worse? Teams wrap him up because they know hes going to convert at a much higher clip from the field than from the line. If teams were scared of hacking him, he would truly be Tyson Chandler+ because I think hes even more explosive than TC.

IKnowHoops
03-06-2015, 05:41 PM
Hes not a max player. He's to poor a scorer to be a max player. If he could score at will, then he'd be David Robinson and then yes an easy Max player. But David Robinson with very limited scoring ability other than just using size to get his looks...If the max were 20 mill, I'd be comfortable giving him 14 mill a year. He does beast out there and he is still cable of getting 20/20 with his limited scoring ability so...I think 14 mill a year if the max is 20, would be a good deal for a team.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2015, 05:47 PM
if you take Paul off the Clippers, and replace him with an above average starting PG, does he still have an impact offensively outside cleanup duties?

valade16
03-06-2015, 05:52 PM
Hes not a max player. He's to poor a scorer to be a max player. If he could score at will, then he'd be David Robinson and then yes an easy Max player. But David Robinson very limited scoring ability other than just using size to get his looks...If the max were 20 mill, I'd be comfortable giving him 14 mill a year. He does beast out there and he is still cable of getting 20/20 with his limited scoring ability so...I think 14 mill a year if the max is 20, would be a good deal for a team.

In what context? Like is it possible or consistently? He has 23 20+ pt games in his career, so it's not exactly a common occourence (though in his defense, 11 of them have come the past 2 years so he's gotten better).

HeatFan
03-06-2015, 05:56 PM
I think he has been really impressive since Griffin got injured but still don't think he is a max player. He is like the Tyson Chandler of the Dallas Championship team, nothing more. If the Clippers do think he is a max player, it will be interesting to see how they will be able to keep him with such high salaries already on the books for Griffin and Paul.

Historically teams have overpaid for size so his free agency will be interesting at the least.

Chronz
03-06-2015, 05:58 PM
if you take Paul off the Clippers, and replace him with an above average starting PG, does he still have an impact offensively outside cleanup duties?

You take any player off any team and theres an impact. For instance, without DJ's bone crushing picks (with relatively low turnover) you could argue our shooters dont get off. Without his offensive rebounding our offensive efficiency wouldn't be leading the league.

Everyone is connected, some more than others, and maybe thats what you're hinting at but I dont see how an efficient finisher isn't missed. He draws so much attention that it opens up the floor for everyone else.

HeatFan
03-06-2015, 06:00 PM
if you take Paul off the Clippers, and replace him with an above average starting PG, does he still have an impact offensively outside cleanup duties?

I was thinking about this also. Lots of big men play well in a unique system but then are not the same in a different system. I see so much chemistry right now with Paul's style of play that I don't think he'll be the same in a different system.

Chronz
03-06-2015, 06:08 PM
I was thinking about this also. Lots of big men play well in a unique system but then are not the same in a different system. I see so much chemistry right now with Paul's style of play that I don't think he'll be the same in a different system.

This holds true for everyone, not just bigmen. Curious to your examples tho, what players would you compare to DJ in that respect? IIRC, DJ held his own without CP3 in years past. Most systems could use a player who rebounds and finishes at the rim at an elite level. His lack of spacing should only inhibit systems where the primary playmaker cant shoot but those guys are going the way of the dodo in today's NBA. Guys like DJ will ALWAYS have a place.

HeatFan
03-06-2015, 06:21 PM
This holds true for everyone, not just bigmen. Curious to your examples tho, what players would you compare to DJ in that respect? IIRC, DJ held his own without CP3 in years past. Most systems could use a player who rebounds and finishes at the rim at an elite level. His lack of spacing should only inhibit systems where the primary playmaker cant shoot but those guys are going the way of the dodo in today's NBA. Guys like DJ will ALWAYS have a place.

I mean it in the context of a potential max player. I think he can be effective in many systems but probably not at the same level he is showing right now. A few examples that come to mind. Amare was great in Dantoni's system but then wasn't the same in NY, injuries aside. Stephenson was very good in Indiana's system, lost in Charlotte. Ben Wallace a beast in Detroit his first time around (need I say more?)

To be fair, it goes both ways. Some players are nobody in a team and then move to a new system and fit in very well.

Hawkeye15
03-06-2015, 06:58 PM
You take any player off any team and theres an impact. For instance, without DJ's bone crushing picks (with relatively low turnover) you could argue our shooters dont get off. Without his offensive rebounding our offensive efficiency wouldn't be leading the league.

Everyone is connected, some more than others, and maybe thats what you're hinting at but I dont see how an efficient finisher isn't missed. He draws so much attention that it opens up the floor for everyone else.

it's easier to replace Dale Davis's picks than Reggie Millers shooting

of course an elite cleanup guy who finishes around the rim is going to fit in anywhere, I am just talking about the question of the thread. Max money? Eh

Chronz
03-06-2015, 08:05 PM
it's easier to replace Dale Davis's picks than Reggie Millers shooting

of course an elite cleanup guy who finishes around the rim is going to fit in anywhere, I am just talking about the question of the thread. Max money? Eh

I think of it this way, remember when you felt Pek was going to get his max and that it would be justifiable from the Wolves point of view. Clips cant afford to lose him and hes demonstrably better than Pek IMO. Hes also our 2nd best players BFF, you dont ruin that chemistry. Like Pek and Love, they aren't a perfect compliment but they know each other very well and will eventually develop defensive synergy IMO.

KnicksorBust
03-06-2015, 08:45 PM
This holds true for everyone, not just bigmen. Curious to your examples tho, what players would you compare to DJ in that respect? IIRC, DJ held his own without CP3 in years past. Most systems could use a player who rebounds and finishes at the rim at an elite level. His lack of spacing should only inhibit systems where the primary playmaker cant shoot but those guys are going the way of the dodo in today's NBA. Guys like DJ will ALWAYS have a place.

I mean it in the context of a potential max player. I think he can be effective in many systems but probably not at the same level he is showing right now. A few examples that come to mind. Amare was great in Dantoni's system but then wasn't the same in NY, injuries aside. Stephenson was very good in Indiana's system, lost in Charlotte. Ben Wallace a beast in Detroit his first time around (need I say more?)

To be fair, it goes both ways. Some players are nobody in a team and then move to a new system and fit in very well.

Then how do you explain Tyson Chandler having some of his best seasons with Jeremy Lin and Raymond Felton?

Chronz
03-06-2015, 09:30 PM
Then how do you explain Tyson Chandler having some of his best seasons with Jeremy Lin and Raymond Felton?

The example I used to use was K-Mart going from NJ to Denver, but then people told me it was just because he joined Andre Miller and found another lob partner. I was like, isn't the greater point that its a symbiotic relationship? BOTH sides benefit.

PHIN33
03-06-2015, 11:47 PM
...is DJ a max player??? great question...I think a "max player" is a player that every team in the league would offer a max contract to...I don't think DJ fits the bill.. so I would say no he isn't...would other teams offer him a max deal,yes they would....the clippers are in a tough spot...

D-Leethal
03-07-2015, 03:53 PM
Chronz, DJ is a special player, a special athlete with freakish athleticism and a great pick and roll finisher above the rim. He has a very particular body and skillset. If you asking me why more people can't "do what he does", that is why, not because they don't have the skills to do so - moreso the BODY to do so combined with finishing ability AND because most NBA bigs with some offense have a wider array of skills that coaches choose to utilize by drawing up sets to get them the ball in positions to score it, rather than tell them to do nothing but go out there, set hard screens and finish lobs. Your efficiency is a product of what you are asked to do, guys asked to do very little when it comes to creating scoring opportunities for themselves, are usually very efficient at it.

Is a guy asked to do very little and plays very well within himself better offensively than a guy with a wider array of skills and is asked to do and create far more on the offensive side of the ball because he is more efficient? I certainly don't think thats even up for debate. But I think we know each others stance at this point. I just find it hard faulting a guy for having more ability on that side of the ball and asked to do more as a result because his efficiency in his expanded role isn't as high.

If DJ was a "great" offensive player, his coach would do everything in his power to get him the ball more, but if you ramped up his usage his efficiency would plummet on a steady slope with every additional shot attempt. Thats not a great offensive player in my book, might be in yours. Can he contribute to great offense? Of course he can, but the two aren't one in the same.

D-Leethal
03-07-2015, 03:58 PM
I named 4 guys I think are comparable in freakish athleticism - screen setting ability - massive size and finishing power. I am not sure there are any others out there with the same combination of skills. You essentially said Dwight COULD do what DJ does if he did less, but I would argue he is a little more skilled than DJ on offense and is asked to do more as a result. Thats why he isn't quite as efficient, because he isn't only take 6 shots a game, because he has the ability to take more. DJ doesn't. Its not easy to get a dunk against NBA defenses and when thats all you can do, its hard to up those attempts.

valade16
03-07-2015, 04:47 PM
I think Chris Paul being on his team is overblown in terms of DeAndre Jordan. Yes, Paul likely creates easier looks for Jordan but again, Jordan takes 6 shots a night, so he would get 1 or 2 different looks per game if it were an average PG instead of Chris Paul. He'd still have a great FG%.

In fact, you could argue that if the LAC had a PG who had a worse efficiency then DeAndre would have the possiblity of getting even more offensive rebounds and more put-back attempts.