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View Full Version : When Hardens career is done, where will he rank among SGs?



Goose17
02-17-2015, 12:21 PM
Completely speculative, no way of knowing for sure. We don't know how many seasons he will have like this, we don't know if he'll ever win an MVP, how many titles he will get or All-NBA team nods etc.

But based on the year he's having, if he can keep this up, where do you think he ranks for his position in regards to all time?

Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West, Gervin, Drexler, Maravich, McGrady, Iverson and Carter etc. Can he surpass these guys?

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 12:39 PM
I know we were having a pretty in-depth discussion about this, but I still think it's so early to have a thread discussing the guy's legacy when he's only 25. Like I said in the other thread, I think it's still feasible he could crack the top five behind Jordan, Kobe, West and Wade. However, if I had to guess right now, I think it's more likely he'd sit somewhere in that 7-10 range behind Drexler and Gervin in the group of Iverson, McGrady and Carter.

Edit: I also don't like the poll options. Top 7 is way too specific. Top 5 and top 10 would have sufficed, and it's already way too hard to measure a projected 25-year-old player's legacy.

FlashBolt
02-17-2015, 12:40 PM
Probably top 10. His playoff career sucks and he hasn't won anything. Iverson had scoring titles. McGrady had a short career so he could probably pass him. Drexler/West/Gervin, probably not.

Redrum187
02-17-2015, 12:41 PM
That is tough to say. Of the list you mentioned, I see him passing Carter and Iverson. Other than that, I can't really think of any one else.

More than likely top 10 though.

Goose17
02-17-2015, 12:43 PM
I know we were having a pretty in-depth discussion about this, but I still think it's so early to have a thread discussing the guy's legacy when he's only 25.

I did say it was complete speculation.

But no more than discussing who will end up better between Harden and Klay, still early to decide that isn't it?

I'm only doing this to see what the "majority" think.

Goose17
02-17-2015, 12:44 PM
That is tough to say. Of the list you mentioned, I see him passing Carter and Iverson. Other than that, I can't really think of any one else.

More than likely top 10 though.

That is exactly what I had, Harden in the top 8. Beating out VC and AI.

sixer04fan
02-17-2015, 12:55 PM
Depends on his longevity and if he can consistently make the playoffs (I have good expectations for both) for him to be top 10. He doesn't even necessarily need great playoff success or titles to be top 10 at a position, so I see him getting there either way.

Disclaimer: He won't be as good as Klay Thompson though. At his current trajectory, Klay will be better than Harden, MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Magic, and Russell. He will also be the greatest one-on-one player ever at the Rucker in games to 21 because Harden can't get foul calls there which cheapens the game.

Goose17
02-17-2015, 12:58 PM
Depends on his longevity and if he can consistently make the playoffs (I have good expectations for both) for him to be top 10. He doesn't even necessarily need great playoff success or titles to be top 10 at a position, so I see him getting there either way.

Disclaimer: He won't be as good as Klay Thompson though. At his current trajectory, Klay will be better than Harden, MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Magic, and Russell. He will also be the greatest one-on-one player ever at the Rucker in games to 21 because Harden can't get foul calls there which cheapens the game.

So you agree he'll probably trump Iverson and Carter?

sixer04fan
02-17-2015, 01:07 PM
So you agree he'll probably trump Iverson and Carter?

He can be on that tier. I don't know if I'd have Vince Carter that high. But it's all pretty close, hard to make concrete top 10 vs. top 12 or so, you know?

Dade County
02-17-2015, 01:09 PM
That is tough to say. Of the list you mentioned, I see him passing Carter and Iverson. Other than that, I can't really think of any one else.

More than likely top 10 though.


Naw, can't se that happening.

I know psd trashes AI alot, but I can't see harden being better then Iverson when it's all said and done. If Iverson had a team like what Harden has now, they wouldn't have lost in the 1st rd last year to portland.

Iverson was a far better offensive player then Harden is right now (I know advance stats and what not), and a little better on D too.

But whatever, let the Iverson hate begin like always.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 01:25 PM
Naw, can't se that happening.

I know psd trashes AI alot, but I can't see harden being better then Iverson when it's all said and done. If Iverson had a team like what Harden has now, they wouldn't have lost in the 1st rd last year to portland.

Iverson was a far better offensive player then Harden is right now (I know advance stats and what not), and a little better on D too.

But whatever, let the Iverson hate begin like always.

AI was one of the least efficient, most high volume scorers in the history of the league. If points per game is the only barometer by which you judge players, you're not getting the full picture of a player's offensive worth. Iverson wasn't especially efficient from anywhere on the floor, and was especially inefficient beyond the arc. The guy took nearly 3,400 3-pointers in his career (41st all-time in the league) despite shooting only 31.3% on them. That's abysmal.

His free throw shooting was really the only thing that kept him from being obscenely inefficient. And he's not better than Harden there either. Pretty much the only offensive edge I would give Iverson is as a mid-range shooter, where he was pretty solid and Harden generally struggles. I'd honestly give Harden an edge everywhere else.

archdevil84
02-17-2015, 01:51 PM
hardens career wil end deep down in the deepest dungeons in the world. not even top 100 SG all time

Goose17
02-17-2015, 01:53 PM
He can be on that tier. I don't know if I'd have Vince Carter that high. But it's all pretty close, hard to make concrete top 10 vs. top 12 or so, you know?

Yeah I feel you. I don't really like making all time lists to be completely honest. I prefer ranking guys by era.

JasonJohnHorn
02-17-2015, 01:57 PM
Why don't we wait until his career is actually close to being over instead of having this conversation as he is entering his prime.

It's like asking where Drexler would rank before he's even been to the finals.

Chronz
02-17-2015, 01:57 PM
Will probably depend on his teammates

Goose17
02-17-2015, 02:13 PM
Why don't we wait until his career is actually close to being over instead of having this conversation as he is entering his prime.

It's like asking where Drexler would rank before he's even been to the finals.

If you don't want to have the conversation just don't join in. It's not difficult. Ignore the thread.

FOBolous
02-17-2015, 02:28 PM
Depends on his longevity and if he can consistently make the playoffs (I have good expectations for both) for him to be top 10. He doesn't even necessarily need great playoff success or titles to be top 10 at a position, so I see him getting there either way.

Disclaimer: He won't be as good as Klay Thompson though. At his current trajectory, Klay will be better than Harden, MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Magic, and Russell. He will also be the greatest one-on-one player ever at the Rucker in games to 21 because Harden can't get foul calls there which cheapens the game.

Agreed 100%

Cal827
02-17-2015, 03:05 PM
I think that he can get between top 5 and top 7. Behind Jordan, Kobe, Wade West, maybe Drexler. Depends on what he does when it comes to trophies.

R. Johnson#3
02-17-2015, 03:19 PM
This is just about offense, right?

D-Leethal
02-17-2015, 03:24 PM
Somewhere right behind Klay Thompson.

D-Leethal
02-17-2015, 03:24 PM
Damn someone beat me to it.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 03:25 PM
You know who else used to kill it in his prime? Tracy Mcgrady, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury. Things happen. It's way too early to say. You don't even think of those last 2 anymore.


What I'd predict - he ends up in a tier below Tmac, AI, VC, Wade. Wade can get the nod over those 3 for his rings but I never saw him as a better player. The Jordan is obviously a joke. Kobe, West level is untouchable for Harden as well, he just doesn't have the potential for that discussion of legacy or talent.

I know people easily forget but those guys would easily be the best SG today if they were in their primes. They were insane.

Thats about where I see him ending at best. There's nothing to be ashamed about that either, I'd give credit for creating the next tier of his own after all them. And that's from someone who doesn't respect his game at all.


Now if he gives the big stat sheets and somehow wins a champ or 2, it won't come in a way Wade did...so he'd still be below the top, but you could argue him in the other tier for ring/state argument if you really push those.


Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Kobe
Tier 3A:Wade, Iverson, West
Tier 3B: Vince, Tmac
Tier 4: Allen, Miller


I could see him making a new tier between 3b and 4 max potential. Which is good. Congrats if he does. I'd respect it a lot if he cleaned up the flails/flops and defense.

Cal827
02-17-2015, 03:41 PM
You know who else used to kill it in his prime? Tracy Mcgrady, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury. Things happen. It's way too early to say. You don't even think of those last 2 anymore.


What I'd predict - he ends up in a tier below Tmac, AI, VC, Wade. Wade can get the nod over those 3 for his rings but I never saw him as a better player. The Jordan is obviously a joke. Kobe, West level is untouchable for Harden as well, he just doesn't have the potential for that discussion of legacy or talent.

I know people easily forget but those guys would easily be the best SG today if they were in their primes. They were insane.

Thats about where I see him ending at best. There's nothing to be ashamed about that either, I'd give credit for creating the next tier of his own after all them. And that's from someone who doesn't respect his game at all.


Now if he gives the big stat sheets and somehow wins a champ or 2, it won't come in a way Wade did...so he'd still be below the top, but you could argue him in the other tier for ring/state argument if you really push those.


Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Kobe
Tier 3A:Wade, Iverson, West
Tier 3B: Vince, Tmac
Tier 4: Allen, Miller


I could see him making a new tier between 3b and 4 max potential. Which is good. Congrats if he does. I'd respect it a lot if he cleaned up the flails/flops and defense.

As a Raptor fan... :laugh:. T-mac in his prime was better than Carter... freaking wish we were able to keep both of them though :mad:... Although, he has made the proper adjustments and has become one of the best role players in the NBA, which is better to say over pretty much everyone listed here but Allen.

Also, to be fair, Wade flops a ton too. He's one of my favorite players, but watching him is sometimes annoying because of the flops. Obviously, at their peaks, Wade was an elite defender, while Harden (although his peak years aren't over) has been pretty bad until this season (where there's been pretty good improvements, but needs to hold it up consistently). I think Wade should have his own tier too .

Side note, something about Harden's game must really piss you off. I mean, I make insults too, but it's mainly to get a response out Bosstone :laugh2:

Verbal Christ
02-17-2015, 03:45 PM
Kobe has done everything and more to be mentioned in the same breath/tier as MJ. I'm not saying Kobe is 'better' but what hasnt he done other than some DPOY awards? I hate Kobe, but Im not going to be ignorant and try to diminish his career. IMO if Lebron continues to do what he does, adds some more hardware I could make an argument for him being the best who ever did it.

On topic: Yay! another James Harden thread! Im starting to get the feeling these are just traps in order for the Houston Haters to pounce. I mean answer your own question: If he averages 28 ppg/6 rpg/7ast pg for the rest of his career where would he rank? Considering he's 24 and the legends will play to lets say what 35? That would put his point totals near 33K points and 3rd ALL TIME ... knowing that ... where the hell do YOU think he would rank? Even if he doesnt win a ring with the Rockets in this window, I'd put money on him picking up a ring somewhere along the line and put an end to the fantasy land BS.

Goose17
02-17-2015, 03:48 PM
Literally can't discuss Houston without the trolls accusing me of baiting. Pathetic.

Verbal Christ
02-17-2015, 03:52 PM
Sorry it hurts your feelings. It was a stupid poll and a stupid question. Why Harden, why not do this exercise with Curry or Thompson or any of the other 1000 players at random.

valade16
02-17-2015, 04:04 PM
Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Kobe
Tier 3A:Wade, Iverson, West
Tier 3B: Vince, Tmac
Tier 4: Allen, Miller


Did you forget about Clyde Drexler or was the omission intentional?

Goose17
02-17-2015, 04:12 PM
Sorry it hurts your feelings. It was a stupid poll and a stupid question. Why Harden, why not do this exercise with Curry or Thompson or any of the other 1000 players at random.

Because it's an extension of a discussion I had with MBT in another thread and I thought it would be interesting to see what the majority thought. I didn't make this randomly. If you think it's a stupid question just don't contribute, ignore the thread. It's not difficult.

and don't worry. Stuff on the internet tends not to hurt my feelings because none of it matters. I just find it funny your buddies like to accuse LolPlease of trolling and yet all you seem to do is troll and get all pissy when people try and dicuss anything to do with your team.

If it's that big of an issue for you I suggest you go crying to the mods and get the entire forum banned from discussing Houston again, wouldn't want you being upset and scared to visit the forums because of all the meenies.

naps
02-17-2015, 04:17 PM
Way too early to tell. When a player hits 30 in terms of age, that's when you can get more of a clear picture.

I know Iverson was inefficient and all that but my lord the guy is so fuqing underrated in this forum.

KnicksorBust
02-17-2015, 04:20 PM
I have a tough time seeing him crack the top 5. I don't think he'll win an MVP or a title. He'll be a great volume scorer along the lines of a T-Mac, Vince, AI and his advantage is his efficiency.

Verbal Christ
02-17-2015, 04:21 PM
Because it's an extension of a discussion I had with MBT in another thread and I thought it would be interesting to see what the majority thought. I didn't make this randomly. If you think it's a stupid question just don't contribute, ignore the thread. It's not difficult.

and don't worry. Stuff on the internet tends not to hurt my feelings because none of it matters. I just find it funny your buddies like to accuse LolPlease of trolling and yet all you seem to do is troll and get all pissy when people try and dicuss anything to do with your team.

If it's that big of an issue for you I suggest you go crying to the mods and get the entire forum banned from discussing Houston again, wouldn't want you being upset and scared to visit the forums because of all the meenies.

Yeahh okay buddy. im not the one with the snarky 'if you dont like the topic get out' posts. i dont give a rats *** who you cut for or what you think, if its wrong or fabricated im gonna call you out on it, take it how you wanna take it. Boost your testosterone son no need to get butthurt and accusatory and go defending your homeboy, none of that was brought up, as usual this is just a podium for you and your circlejerk to bash "certain" teams and "certain" individuals, your funny getting all on your high horse!

sens#11fan
02-17-2015, 04:22 PM
Tbh, I don't see him reaching the same level as TMAC, Vince, or AI in their primes. Those dudes were on another level at their prime and were able to dominate the game, more than harden. The only way I see him passing Vince, AI and Tmac is through longevity. Its too bad that Tmac's career was cut short, he was on par with Kobe as far as talents goes, to bad he didn't have the same work ethic. In addition, a championship will definitely help his case, but I don't see him winning one with Dwight as his sidekick, he could maybe steal a ring on his way out like Gary Payton.

Tony_Starks
02-17-2015, 04:24 PM
Third tier really good sg's.


MJ/ Kobe
Drexler/ AI/ TMac/ Wade/ Ray



Hardens of the world.....

Goose17
02-17-2015, 04:30 PM
Yeahh okay buddy. im not the one with the snarky 'if you dont like the topic get out' posts. i dont give a rats *** who you cut for or what you think, if its wrong or fabricated im gonna call you out on it, take it how you wanna take it. Boost your testosterone son no need to get butthurt and accusatory and go defending your homeboy, none of that was brought up, as usual this is just a podium for you and your circlejerk to bash "certain" teams and "certain" individuals, your funny getting all on your high horse!

I'm not bashing anyone. I voted him as ending up in the top 10 and I was having a proper discussion about it. You're the one getting all butt hurt, being uber defensive for no reason other than your own paranoia.

Some times people like to discuss the best players in the league, it's not a conspiracy buddy.

And I'm not being snarky. It's common sense. If you don't like the topic just don't join in. It's not difficult.

Quit trolling, either join the conversation or leave. Stop derailing the topic with your baiting and troll crap.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 05:03 PM
I realize this doesn't mean a whole lot, because there are a lot of great players that never won an MVP. But I want everyone who is laughing at the notion that Harden could one day crack the top 5 at his position to consider something....

Right now, the vast majority of the league and its fans seem to think that the MVP race is a two-man race between Curry and Harden. If Harden were to win, he would be only the fourth shooting guard in NBA history to win an MVP. The other three players were Jordan, Kobe and Iverson. Also, Kobe and Iverson's MVPs are (to this day) still a point of contention among many fans.

Also, I think it's worth noting how few shooting guards in the NBA have seen significant postseason success. In the entire league's history, how many shooting guards have won championships as the No. 1 player on their respective teams? Off the top of my head, I can think of only four: West (x1), Jordan (x6), Wade (x1) and Kobe (x2). And a lot of the guys behind those four on the list (Gervin, McGrady, Carter, Maravich, etc.) had little to no postseason success in their careers.

So the idea that some of these guys ahead of Harden are untouchable seriously needs to be reconsidered. Aside from Jordan, Kobe, West and Wade, I see no reason why Harden couldn't surpass every other player on this list if he plays at this level long enough.

LAcowBOMBER
02-17-2015, 05:33 PM
I realize this doesn't mean a whole lot, because there are a lot of great players that never won an MVP. But I want everyone who is laughing at the notion that Harden could one day crack the top 5 at his position to consider something....

Right now, the vast majority of the league and its fans seem to think that the MVP race is a two-man race between Curry and Harden. If Harden were to win, he would be only the fourth shooting guard in NBA history to win an MVP. The other three players were Jordan, Kobe and Iverson. Also, Kobe and Iverson's MVPs are (to this day) still a point of contention among many fans.

Also, I think it's worth noting how few shooting guards in the NBA have seen significant postseason success. In the entire league's history, how many shooting guards have won championships as the No. 1 player on their respective teams? Off the top of my head, I can think of only four: West (x1), Jordan (x6), Wade (x1) and Kobe (x2). And a lot of the guys behind those four on the list (Gervin, McGrady, Carter, Maravich, etc.) had little to no postseason success in their careers.

So the idea that some of these guys ahead of Harden are untouchable seriously needs to be reconsidered. Aside from Jordan, Kobe, West and Wade, I see no reason why Harden couldn't surpass every other player on this list if he plays at this level long enough.

Perhaps people don't see it happening because he would need like 11 more years of averaging say 25 ppg effeciently, when his game relies a lot on athleticism and getting to the line, and winning the MVP to put him in that spot . I suppose people saying no chance he makes the top 5 are being a little too close minded but I don't think its ridiculous to not expect it either

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 05:43 PM
Perhaps people don't see it happening because he would need like 11 more years of averaging say 25 ppg effeciently, when his game relies a lot on athleticism and getting to the line, and winning the MVP to put him in that spot . I suppose people saying no chance he makes the top 5 are being a little too close minded but I don't think its ridiculous to not expect it either

I don't think he even needs to play at this level for 11 more seasons. If he played at this level for another 7-8 years, won an MVP and won a title as a No. 1 guy, that might be all it takes to crack the top five.

All that being said, I still don't know that I see him reaching the top five at the position. Drexler and/or Wade (depending on who you have higher) will be really, really tough to surpass. But I do think he is on pace for a better career than guys like Carter, McGrady, Iverson, Miller and Maravich and that he could feasibly surpass Allen and Gervin.

JV35
02-17-2015, 05:55 PM
Seriously? Let him play at this level (and stay healthy for, at least, another 7 years) then I'll take a look at it.

valade16
02-17-2015, 06:01 PM
I realize this doesn't mean a whole lot, because there are a lot of great players that never won an MVP. But I want everyone who is laughing at the notion that Harden could one day crack the top 5 at his position to consider something....

Right now, the vast majority of the league and its fans seem to think that the MVP race is a two-man race between Curry and Harden. If Harden were to win, he would be only the fourth shooting guard in NBA history to win an MVP. The other three players were Jordan, Kobe and Iverson. Also, Kobe and Iverson's MVPs are (to this day) still a point of contention among many fans.

Also, I think it's worth noting how few shooting guards in the NBA have seen significant postseason success. In the entire league's history, how many shooting guards have won championships as the No. 1 player on their respective teams? Off the top of my head, I can think of only four: West (x1), Jordan (x6), Wade (x1) and Kobe (x2). And a lot of the guys behind those four on the list (Gervin, McGrady, Carter, Maravich, etc.) had little to no postseason success in their careers.

So the idea that some of these guys ahead of Harden are untouchable seriously needs to be reconsidered. Aside from Jordan, Kobe, West and Wade, I see no reason why Harden couldn't surpass every other player on this list if he plays at this level long enough.

2nd Bolded First: To be fair, I think if Harden does win the MVP this season it will be as contentious a win as Kobe and Iverson from those that believe Curry or even AD should have won it.

1st Bolded: As a Blazer fan I can see Harden surpassing Drexler. He obviously hasn't yet but I could see Harden getting to that level.

jerellh528
02-17-2015, 06:03 PM
He has potential to crack the top 10. Outside of the main guys at sg, there was still tons of talent that people are forgetting, this is the NBA where the best players in the world play. It's really too early to tell with harden because he's still too early on in his career. there's been guys who have had years like harden and flame out, then there's guys who continue to build a fantastic legacy, we gotta see what path harden takes. Too many variables, but even outside of the top guys everyone mentioned, harden still has to overcome guys like: miller, dumars, d. Thompson, Goodrich, sprewell, moncrief, hell even ginobli, and I'm sure there are others im not mentioning. No way he passes jordan, kobe, wade. I can't see him passing Allen, miller, or iverson either as far as legacies go. But he should be fighting with a handful of other guys for that 7-10 spot if all goes well for him.

Tony_Starks
02-17-2015, 06:06 PM
Two things Harden has going against him long term: he doesn't exactly keep himself in the greatest physical shape, he relies heavily on bail out foul calls. Now he may very well make the needed adjustments as time goes on but that remains to be seen. We saw what happened with AI an TMac ( whom I think he will never catch), once their athleticism left they fell off a cliff. Its not hard for me to imagine Hardens career going the same way.

FOBolous
02-17-2015, 07:14 PM
Why are warriors' fans starting so many threads about Harden? I mean, as a rockets fan, I enjoy seeing Harden get validated over and over again as much as the next Rockets fan but this is too much. What's up with warriors' fans obsession with Harden?

Bruno
02-17-2015, 07:17 PM
Harden has all the tools to legitimately challenge Drexler. to pass Wade, he's going to need to be successful on a team level.

i'm loving all this Harden/Thompson stuff. hopefully we see rockets golden state more than once in the next 3-4 years.

archdevil84
02-17-2015, 07:27 PM
good to see people stil respect wade

archdevil84
02-17-2015, 07:29 PM
for once i'll answer a question about harden seriously. if he keeps up his scoring and improves his defense more to a normal/good defensive level AND leads his team to atleast a conference title along the way he can get into the top 10... but so far he hasnt proven anything in the postseason. in fact, he has struggled mightly the past year and the year before that he wasnt realy great either. so lets see him play a great postseason first and then see what he can do to earn my respect

FraziersKnicks
02-17-2015, 08:08 PM
:laugh2: at Lakers fans putting MJ and Kobe in the same tier... :rolleyes:

Goose17
02-17-2015, 08:11 PM
Why are warriors' fans starting so many threads about Harden? I mean, as a rockets fan, I enjoy seeing Harden get validated over and over again as much as the next Rockets fan but this is too much. What's up with warriors' fans obsession with Harden?

Yep. You are one of the many Houston trolls. Always have been.

I know you already read my post but I'll type it out one last time; this is a continuation of a discussion I was having with your MBT in another thread. I thought it would be interesting to get perspective of the majority on where they see his career going.

Maybe you're not accustomed to this, it's been a long time since the Olajuwon days, perhaps you don't remember or maybe you're too young. But when your team has a top player in the league they tend to be more topical. Get used to it... or go crying to the mods and get everyone banned from discussing them again. Whatever.

jerellh528
02-17-2015, 08:14 PM
:laugh2: at Lakers fans putting MJ and Kobe in the same tier... :rolleyes:

After 4 pages of discussion and thoughts, that is what you have to offer? God, pathetic.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 08:16 PM
Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Kobe
Tier 3A:Wade, Iverson, West
Tier 3B: Vince, Tmac
Tier 4: Allen, Miller


Did you forget about Clyde Drexler or was the omission intentional?

Wasn't he sf or even pg at times? If including I'd put him 3A or 3B

Bruno
02-17-2015, 08:17 PM
Two things Harden has going against him long term: he doesn't exactly keep himself in the greatest physical shape, he relies heavily on bail out foul calls. Now he may very well make the needed adjustments as time goes on but that remains to be seen. We saw what happened with AI an TMac ( whom I think he will never catch), once their athleticism left they fell off a cliff. Its not hard for me to imagine Hardens career going the same way.

Great points, he was out of shape last year. thats why he had to take so many possessions off. this year he looks amazing, question is how long does he take his conditioning seriously. hopefully for the rest of his prime.

your other point is why im not bullish on the rockets. houston is in trouble if Harden can't control the pace of the game, or get buckets at the foul line. its more difficult to pull that off in the post season.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 08:28 PM
Two things Harden has going against him long term: he doesn't exactly keep himself in the greatest physical shape, he relies heavily on bail out foul calls. Now he may very well make the needed adjustments as time goes on but that remains to be seen. We saw what happened with AI an TMac ( whom I think he will never catch), once their athleticism left they fell off a cliff. Its not hard for me to imagine Hardens career going the same way.

You're missing a huge, huge piece of the puzzle here. Harden's game isn't based on athleticism. He doesn't get to the rim because he's athletic. He gets to the rim because he's crafty, he has a nasty Euro step and he's tough to guard. If Manu can still score into his 30s, so can Harden. Also, you're forgetting that Harden is a much, much, much better 3-point shooter than Iverson and McGrady.

I'm not expecting Harden to be putting up 26-28 points per game past 32 or anything, but his game should age fairly well.

jerellh528
02-17-2015, 08:46 PM
You're missing a huge, huge piece of the puzzle here. Harden's game isn't based on athleticism. He doesn't get to the rim because he's athletic. He gets to the rim because he's crafty, he has a nasty Euro step and he's tough to guard. If Manu can still score into his 30s, so can Harden. Also, you're forgetting that Harden is a much, much, much better 3-point shooter than Iverson and McGrady.

I'm not expecting Harden to be putting up 26-28 points per game past 32 or anything, but his game should age fairly well.

Good point

flea
02-17-2015, 08:47 PM
Hard to see him ever being ranked ahead of Jordan, Kobe, West, Drexler, or Wade. But beyond them it all depends on how long is peak and career last (typical answer for a 25 year old). The biggest difference between all 5 of them and Harden is on the defensive end of the floor, and I seriously doubt that's going to change.

Nobody has mentioned Ginobili yet but I think even equaling his career would be a fine accomplishment - but it doesn't necessarily put you in the top 10. Harden relies so heavily on FTA that it's hard to really know how to project his career. The only player that even compares to him in regards to percentage of your offense gained at the line is Wade. Wade, though, is quite a different player (more athletic, better defender, better distributor, better in the mid-range, miles better in the post) - so comparing the two isn't really a 1:1.

On the one hand, you can say you're bullish on Harden because he can hit 3s. He's pretty solid as a spot-up guy too, but he is nothing amazing. On the other hand, you're bearish because of how reliant he is on drives and how bad he is everywhere but the 3 point line. If he adds to his game he could have a nice slow decline like Ginobili. If not, he'll probably have a solid prime and go the way of T-Mac.

flea
02-17-2015, 08:54 PM
You're missing a huge, huge piece of the puzzle here. Harden's game isn't based on athleticism. He doesn't get to the rim because he's athletic. He gets to the rim because he's crafty, he has a nasty Euro step and he's tough to guard. If Manu can still score into his 30s, so can Harden. Also, you're forgetting that Harden is a much, much, much better 3-point shooter than Iverson and McGrady.

I'm not expecting Harden to be putting up 26-28 points per game past 32 or anything, but his game should age fairly well.

It's not based entirely on athleticism but you need small-space quickness to get space and move past defenders. To a degree, every slasher's game is based on athleticism. And while he's crafty, his handle is still kind of loose (like Ginobili and Lebron). Lose your quickness and you'll start getting disrupted a lot more easily.

jerellh528
02-17-2015, 08:59 PM
Hard to see him ever being ranked ahead of Jordan, Kobe, West, Drexler, or Wade. But beyond them it all depends on how long is peak and career last (typical answer for a 25 year old). The biggest difference between all 5 of them and Harden is on the defensive end of the floor, and I seriously doubt that's going to change.

Nobody has mentioned Ginobili yet but I think even equaling his career would be a fine accomplishment - but it doesn't necessarily put you in the top 10. Harden relies so heavily on FTA that it's hard to really know how to project his career. The only player that even compares to him in regards to percentage of your offense gained at the line is Wade. Wade, though, is quite a different player (more athletic, better defender, better distributor, better in the mid-range, miles better in the post) - so comparing the two isn't really a 1:1.

On the one hand, you can say you're bullish on Harden because he can hit 3s. He's pretty solid as a spot-up guy too, but he is nothing amazing. On the other hand, you're bearish because of how reliant he is on drives and how bad he is everywhere but the 3 point line. If he adds to his game he could have a nice slow decline like Ginobili. If not, he'll probably have a solid prime and go the way of T-Mac.

I did. :p

FraziersKnicks
02-17-2015, 09:10 PM
After 4 pages of discussion and thoughts, that is what you have to offer? God, pathetic.

Thought I was on your ignore list :laugh2:

Tier 1: MJ

Tier 2: Kobe

Tier 3: Wade, Drexler, West

Tier 4: Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Allen, Miller

I see Harden ending up in tier 4. Depending on how his career develops he could make it into tier 3.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 09:21 PM
Thought I was on your ignore list :laugh2:

Tier 1: MJ

Tier 2: Kobe

Tier 3: Wade, Drexler, West

Tier 4: Iverson, Carter, T-Mac, Allen, Miller

I see Harden ending up in tier 4. Depending on how his career develops he could make it into tier 3.

This seems like a fair assessment to me. Now, I do think he has the potential to be the best player in that fourth tier. But whether he can cross into that top five will depend on if he can win some titles and/or earn an MVP or two in addition to posting a consistent 8-10 year prime with similar production to what he's already started these last three seasons.

Edit: Just noticed that fourth tier was missing George Gervin. He's got be on anyone's list of the top 10 SGs of all-time. And as others have mentioned, you could make a decent case for Ginobili in that fourth tier, although I'd probably put him a tier below those guys.

G_S_W
02-18-2015, 01:47 AM
Impossible to say so early in his career.

Grant Hill, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Harold Miner, Jerry Stackhouse, Penny Hardaway, and of course Bean Bryant were all thought to be the "next Jordan," and they all had very different career trajectories.

Ariza's Better
02-18-2015, 07:02 AM
He'll be the greatest SG, PG, SF, PF and C of all time. He will also cure cancer, blow up the moon and win the Nobel peace prize. Twice.

PhillyFaninLA
02-18-2015, 09:17 AM
I think many people on this site either don't know basketball or haven't seen and understand just what was done by Isiah and Iverson

ThuglifeJ
02-18-2015, 10:43 AM
Impossible to say so early in his career.

Grant Hill, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Harold Miner, Jerry Stackhouse, Penny Hardaway, and of course Bean Bryant were all thought to be the "next Jordan," and they all had very different career trajectories.

Exactly

Nycbball08
02-18-2015, 11:49 AM
Let me check my crystal ball who the hell knows, why don't we wait till his career's done first to make that decision.

Goose17
02-18-2015, 11:59 AM
Harden's game isn't based on athleticism. He doesn't get to the rim because he's athletic. He gets to the rim because he's crafty, he has a nasty Euro step and he's tough to guard.

Very true. I mean he does have some explosiveness to him but he isn't reliant on it in the slightest. Manu is a great comparison.

Remember when Gilbert Arenas was in D.C? Different position but he was averaging similar numbers I think, something like 27 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds and 2 steals. Then came the injuries, the MCL tear, the ongoing knee issues... the more I think about it the more I think that the only thing that can stop Harden getting into the top 8/10 all time SGs is himself or an injury, knock on wood neither happens because we need more players of this caliber. I don't even think he would need to win any individual accolades (mvp awards). I think the "majority" would favour him over the usual guys put in those 9th and 10th spots if he had just one championship under his belt. Not a way I personally measure a player, but people are stupid and that's the kind of thing that can sway "the majoritys" perspective.

Goose17
02-18-2015, 12:00 PM
Let me check my crystal ball who the hell knows, why don't we wait till his career's done first to make that decision.

It's called speculating. Don't want to discuss it? Just ignore the topic. No need to get your panties all twisted.

cmellofan15
02-18-2015, 02:59 PM
Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Kobe
Tier 3A:Wade, Iverson, West
Tier 3B: Vince, Tmac
Tier 4: Allen, Miller

you forgot Gervin, Havlicek, Clyde, Maravich, Dumars, hell even Ginobili.

I won't even touch on how poorly you've ranked the players you actually included...

Verbal Christ
02-18-2015, 03:19 PM
you forgot gervin, havlicek, clyde, maravich, dumars, hell even ginobili.

I won't even touch on how poorly you've ranked the players you actually included...

lol

bucketss
02-18-2015, 04:05 PM
top 5

Chronz
02-18-2015, 04:38 PM
So are we basing this on the individual or his teammates? If so, which teammates do you guys think he will be burdened or gifted with? If we're actually contextualizing his performance with his team in mind, then it depends on how much you value peak vs longevity.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 04:58 PM
you forgot Gervin, Havlicek, Clyde, Maravich, Dumars, hell even Ginobili.

I won't even touch on how poorly you've ranked the players you actually included...

Is there really a universal ranking tho? To me, Dumars isn't even in the discussion but I dont really value winning above individual dominance. We saw first hand how much winning Dumars was a part of when he lacked the teammates, so I dislike the idea of him being ranked based on how good his team was.

Not a fan of Pistol tho. He was ahead of his time but sometimes, thats a bad thing.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 05:06 PM
Two things Harden has going against him long term: he doesn't exactly keep himself in the greatest physical shape, he relies heavily on bail out foul calls. Now he may very well make the needed adjustments as time goes on but that remains to be seen. We saw what happened with AI an TMac ( whom I think he will never catch), once their athleticism left they fell off a cliff. Its not hard for me to imagine Hardens career going the same way.
Agreed on his work ethic, hes possibly the only player whos nipples are visible through his jersey. Reminds more of Baron Davis than your comps.

AI was diminutive and was definitely FAR more reliant on his athleticism than Harden. And Tmac sustained multiple career altering injuries throughout, if anything, hes an example of how far an advanced skillset/IQ can take a wing.

He will never be as good as Tmac but thats not really what it takes to have a superior career, at least not to some.

mightybosstone
02-19-2015, 12:12 AM
He will never be as good as Tmac but thats not really what it takes to have a superior career, at least not to some.

Why not? I loved McGrady in Houston, and he was a phenomenal talent and a remarkable scorer, but I don't see what makes him leaps and bounds better than Harden. He had excellent court vision and was a freakish athlete, but he was only so-so from an efficiency standpoint and was never a particularly good perimeter shooter. Aside from McGrady's 02-03 season (which was admittedly ridiculous), I don't think McGrady ever had a better season than Harden is having right now.

mightybosstone
02-19-2015, 12:16 AM
you forgot Gervin, Havlicek, Clyde, Maravich, Dumars, hell even Ginobili.

I won't even touch on how poorly you've ranked the players you actually included...

The lack of Gervin and Drexler is admittedly atrocious, and putting Iverson on the same tier as West and Wade makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little bit. But Hondo played a lot more 3 than 2 in his career, and I don't think I'd put Maravich, Dumars or Ginobili quite on the level as the other players ahead of them. Maravich's career was too short and overrated and neither Dumars or Ginobili were ever really No. 1 guys on their respective teams for extended periods of time.

G_S_W
02-19-2015, 02:02 AM
Why not? I loved McGrady in Houston, and he was a phenomenal talent and a remarkable scorer, but I don't see what makes him leaps and bounds better than Harden. He had excellent court vision and was a freakish athlete, but he was only so-so from an efficiency standpoint and was never a particularly good perimeter shooter. Aside from McGrady's 02-03 season (which was admittedly ridiculous), I don't think McGrady ever had a better season than Harden is having right now.

TMac was on a different tier athletically: 6'8", freaky wingspan, freaky vertical, two time scoring champ who could also distribute. TMac's ceiling was just completely ridiculous--he never fulfilled all of his potential due to injuries and arguably due to a lack of a genuine mean streak/kill mode, a la kobe and jordan.

I respect harden's game, but a huge part of his "efficiency" seems to be predicated on flopping and/or star calls, and Harden's 38% FGP in the playoffs for houston, is nearly embarrassing.

Chronz
02-19-2015, 02:10 PM
Why not? I loved McGrady in Houston, and he was a phenomenal talent and a remarkable scorer, but I don't see what makes him leaps and bounds better than Harden. He had excellent court vision and was a freakish athlete, but he was only so-so from an efficiency standpoint and was never a particularly good perimeter shooter. Aside from McGrady's 02-03 season (which was admittedly ridiculous), I don't think McGrady ever had a better season than Harden is having right now.

For the era he played in (pre handcheck/post zone), his efficiency was outstanding. And of course his 03 campaign stands heads and shoulders over whatever Harden has done thus far. Then theres the playoff struggles, the lack of defensive versatility and Im not as impressed with the swings of this era and the challenge Harden has taken against them. Back in Orlando, Tmac took the challenge of guarding the best swings and locking them down on occasion.

Chronz
02-19-2015, 02:13 PM
TMac was on a different tier athletically: 6'8", freaky wingspan, freaky vertical, two time scoring champ who could also distribute. TMac's ceiling was just completely ridiculous--he never fulfilled all of his potential due to injuries and arguably due to a lack of a genuine mean streak/kill mode, a la kobe and jordan.
He would have benefited more from having their health more than their mindset. Tmac was a sleepy eyed killer, much like Duncan. Tmac was so alone he would guard PG's when they abused his midgets, he would guard the likes of KG/Dirk when his bigmen were overmatched/injured, he would play center in certain zone schemes because he was their best help defender. I mean the guys versatility was unmatched for a swing. Very Pippen like

ThuglifeJ
02-19-2015, 05:00 PM
Tier 1: Jordan
Tier 2: Kobe
Tier 3A:Wade, Iverson, West
Tier 3B: Vince, Tmac
Tier 4: Allen, Miller

you forgot Gervin, Havlicek, Clyde, Maravich, Dumars, hell even Ginobili.

I won't even touch on how poorly you've ranked the players you actually included...

It was a tier to create a reference. Not every elite SG to play.

JJ_JKidd
02-23-2015, 08:21 PM
2nd best probably will all the hype around him lol. Sure he is good, but he has not proven anything worth noting while experts and homers continue to revere him like a god.