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View Full Version : 1v1 Street ball-21 at the Rucker: Harden. Klay. Who wins?



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lol, please
02-14-2015, 01:48 PM
If we step away from organized baskeball of the NBA, who wins this 1v1 matchup? If we take away Hardens ability to draw fouls, and force both players to consistently gaurd the other, I think it would be a fun game to watch as the playing field is more level. Thoughts?

jaydubb
02-14-2015, 01:50 PM
Honestly I think klay wins.. He's far better on defense, and drawing fouls is a big part of hardens game.. Both go in klays favor.

I do think it'd be close tho, but in the end I say klay pulls it out.

D-Leethal
02-14-2015, 01:51 PM
Off the dribble scoring skills rules in a 1v1 matchup. Klay's D will keep it close but Harden wins.

Htownballa1622
02-14-2015, 02:05 PM
Klay defense one on one vs Harden's dribbling? Harden wins.

Can klay even dribble?

Redrum187
02-14-2015, 02:13 PM
Klay is the best 2-way SG, but I don't think he could stop Harden one-on-one. Harden easily for me.

Miltstar
02-14-2015, 02:17 PM
Dude, you have an obsession as much as you want Klay to be better than Harden... no matter how you spin it, he's not!

beasted86
02-14-2015, 02:25 PM
When did Klay Thompson become Tony Allen bred with Kawhi Leonard?

That's how he's portrayed on PSD defensively.

You guys need to wake up.

c.c.
02-14-2015, 02:29 PM
Dude, you have an obsession as much as you want Klay to be better than Harden... no matter how you spin it, he's not!

Lol tell me about it! I never reply but I do read it and get a laugh out his posts.

Miltstar
02-14-2015, 02:30 PM
When did Klay Thompson become Tony Allen bred with Kawhi Leonard?

That's how he's portrayed on PSD defensively.

You guys need to wake up.

it's really only one warrior's fan lol he just makes a ton of threads

mightybosstone
02-14-2015, 02:30 PM
If we step away from organized baskeball of the NBA, who wins this 1v1 matchup? If we take away Hardens ability to draw fouls, and force both players to consistently gaurd the other, I think it would be a fun game to watch as the playing field is more level. Thoughts?

:facepalm:

Dude, just give it up. Why do you need posters on PSD to believe that Klay is somehow better than Harden? It's sad, it's pathetic, and it proves absolutely nothing. Just accept the fact that both players are very good, but Harden is the better current NBA player and move on with your life. Hell, the Warriors might be the best team in the entire NBA. Why not take solace in that instead of harping on the same sad **** over and over and over again?

lol, please
02-14-2015, 02:40 PM
:facepalm:

Dude, just give it up. Why do you need posters on PSD to believe that Klay is somehow better than Harden? It's sad, it's pathetic, and it proves absolutely nothing. Just accept the fact that both players are very good, but Harden is the better current NBA player and move on with your life. Hell, the Warriors might be the best team in the entire NBA. Why not take solace in that instead of harping on the same sad **** over and over and over again?

wow. Just trying to talk a little basketball here, on this fine Saturday morning, thought it would be a fun and interesting topic, if you don't like the topic feel free to not respond. No need to be rude, and disrespectful. Kind of expected better from UT alumni. :confused:

rhino17
02-14-2015, 02:48 PM
Harden wins in a blowout. Klay is not a one on one player and James can embarrass anyone off the dribble


When did Klay Thompson become Tony Allen bred with Kawhi Leonard?

That's how he's portrayed on PSD defensively.

You guys need to wake up.
THIS

the guy plays defense, he is not an all-nba defensive player, not even close

Bring The Heat
02-14-2015, 02:54 PM
Harden has superior 1 on 1 skills and taking his man off the dribble... He wins this one clearly.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-14-2015, 03:05 PM
I like how we tries to justify Klay winning since Harden "won't get the whistles" lol give it up bro. Harden cannot be defended one on one just ask Jimmy Butler and Tony Allen and PJ Tucker.

sixer04fan
02-14-2015, 03:09 PM
Harden wins.

These threads are getting more and more desperate and obsessive

Htownballa1622
02-14-2015, 03:32 PM
I would love to call my team the best in the nba while klay being better than harden.

Ultimately, it's backwards for me. I'd rather win a chip than Harden an mvp but that's just me.

Enjoy the seasons both are having sheesh.

Vee-Rex
02-14-2015, 03:33 PM
Harden without a doubt.

mightybosstone
02-14-2015, 03:49 PM
wow. Just trying to talk a little basketball here, on this fine Saturday morning, thought it would be a fun and interesting topic, if you don't like the topic feel free to not respond. No need to be rude, and disrespectful. Kind of expected better from UT alumni. :confused:

Notice that I'm not the only one that's finding these threads to be unnecessary and obsessive. And if you want to talk basketball, there's literally an infinite number of topics you could have made a thread about. But you're way, way too focused on this Harden vs. Thompson debate, despite the fact that it's an argument you're clearly losing and will continue to lose.

Sadds The Gr8
02-14-2015, 03:52 PM
Harden would kill him. 21-5 or 6 easy.

mightybosstone
02-14-2015, 03:54 PM
As for this discussion, it's Harden hands down. About 84 percent of Thompson's shots this season have been jump shots and 71 percent of those shots have been assisted. I don't think there's a better case I could make for "doesn't create his own shot well" than that. Meanwhile, about 68 percent of Harden's shots have been jumpers, and he's been assisted on only 31 percent of them. Harden is a far better scorer and penetrator, and he's the much tougher player to guard.

KB24PG16
02-14-2015, 04:06 PM
harden is better off the dribble, but you don't free throw's in 1v1. klay would have a good chance at taking it

Supreme LA
02-14-2015, 04:32 PM
I'm really surprised by the amount of Harden votes. Just going off of previous head to head matchups, I've seen Klay guard Harden very well and score easily against him. I'd take Klay without a doubt. I think Klay benefited a lot this past summer having to face Harden during Team USA practices.

Supreme LA
02-14-2015, 04:34 PM
As for this discussion, it's Harden hands down. About 84 percent of Thompson's shots this season have been jump shots and 71 percent of those shots have been assisted. I don't think there's a better case I could make for "doesn't create his own shot well" than that. Meanwhile, about 68 percent of Harden's shots have been jumpers, and he's been assisted on only 31 percent of them. Harden is a far better scorer and penetrator, and he's the much tougher player to guard.

LOL at applying these stats to a one on one matchup where Harden couldn't guard him and Klay could lock him up.

Supreme LA
02-14-2015, 04:35 PM
Notice that I'm not the only one that's finding these threads to be unnecessary and obsessive. And if you want to talk basketball, there's literally an infinite number of topics you could have made a thread about. But you're way, way too focused on this Harden vs. Thompson debate, despite the fact that it's an argument you're clearly losing and will continue to lose.

Yet you're the one who is constantly adding fuel to the fire in every Kobe vs Lebron debate. Hypocrite.

curtcocaine
02-14-2015, 04:46 PM
They tie /thread

mightybosstone
02-14-2015, 05:16 PM
Yet you're the one who is constantly adding fuel to the fire in every Kobe vs Lebron debate. Hypocrite.

:laugh: I dare you to find me a single Kobe vs. Lebron thread I've created. In fact, in the years I've posted here, I don't think I've EVER created a thread. As for getting involved in the debate, I assure you I'm hardly the only person "adding fuel to the fire" of that debate. The current Lebron vs. Kobe thread has hundreds of posts, and I didn't even post for the first couple of hundred and haven't paid much attention for the last few days whatsoever.
Those threads would have plenty of fuel without me getting involved.

mightybosstone
02-14-2015, 05:18 PM
LOL at applying these stats to a one on one matchup where Harden couldn't guard him and Klay could lock him up.

Ummm... Those stats are totally relevant, because they show how reliant on assists Thompson is compared to how much scoring Harden does with the ball in his hands. If we're talking strictly scoring without the benefit of other players on the floor, Harden clearly has a significant edge. I don't know how you could possibly prove otherwise. :shrug:

D-Leethal
02-14-2015, 05:24 PM
Ummm... Those stats are totally relevant, because they show how reliant on assists Thompson is compared to how much scoring Harden does with the ball in his hands. If we're talking strictly scoring without the benefit of other players on the floor, Harden clearly has a significant edge. I don't know how you could possibly prove otherwise. :shrug:

Gonna have to agree with you here. Not sure how you can get any more relevant than dissecting a players tendency to score off the dribble vs score off assists when analyzing a hypothetical 1v1 matchup.

There will be no Steph Curry sucking in the defense or selfless swing passes leading to easy catch and shoot jumpers in a 1v1 matchup.

ManningToTyree
02-14-2015, 05:52 PM
Harden would win

jerellh528
02-14-2015, 06:22 PM
I'll take klay because he's a few inches taller, more athletic, a better defender, better shooter, and a bit more of a fiery competitor imo, especially in the case of street ball, I have this kind of feeling that harden would get bullied. It would be close though because harden is a great driver and has the better handles, I don't know how it would fare against klay without picks and screens though.

Htownballa1622
02-14-2015, 06:40 PM
I'll take klay because he's a few inches taller, more athletic, a better defender, better shooter, and a bit more of a fiery competitor imo, especially in the case of street ball, I have this kind of feeling that harden would get bullied. It would be close though because harden is a great driver and has the better handles, I don't know how it would fare against klay without picks and screens though.

James Harden between the Leg DUNK in Practice: http://youtu.be/32APyCWo2BU

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Klay-Thompson-5490/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/James-Harden-1241/

harden had a 37 inch vert.
Klay had a 31.5 inch vert.

Not that vertical is EVERYTHING BUT idk where you'd get that klay is "more athletic." More fiery? Lmao stop. You're just being biased. Hahaha.

jerellh528
02-14-2015, 07:04 PM
James Harden between the Leg DUNK in Practice: http://youtu.be/32APyCWo2BU

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Klay-Thompson-5490/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/James-Harden-1241/

harden had a 37 inch vert.
Klay had a 31.5 inch vert.

Not that vertical is EVERYTHING BUT idk where you'd get that klay is "more athletic." More fiery? Lmao stop. You're just being biased. Hahaha.

I have no bias here. I'm not the one with harden in my avatar. I choose klay in a 1v1. You choose harden, cool. Good opinion.

Htownballa1622
02-14-2015, 07:13 PM
I have no bias here. I'm not the one with harden in my avatar. I choose klay in a 1v1. You choose harden, cool. Good opinion.

I don't mind u choosing klay but at least make sense about it.

You just tried to quantify personalities as one being more fiery (based on what? Lol).

Also I'm just talking about u saying klay is more athletic. Where does that come from other than personal bias?

I may have a rockets avatar but if this were a better catch and shoot competition I may choose klay. I'm at least objective about it.

"Klay is a more fiery competitor imo." Lmao

PurpleLynch
02-14-2015, 07:23 PM
Harden. I think he's the better one on one player in this case.

Goose17
02-14-2015, 07:46 PM
Klay wins.

Harden is a shockingly bad man on man defender. This stuff about Klay not being able to dribble is either coming from haters or people who haven't watched enough of him this year. Sure he's not on the same level as Harden in that respect but he has developed a decent first step which would be more than sufficient for a one on one game against a guy that simply can't defend. On top of that he would shut Harden down, especially when there's no refs around to bail him out. Klay has a decent post game for a 2 guard, he's developed a good first step and he has a dead eye quick release.

Harden is still the better player that's not even debatable at this point (Imo). But professional ball or even organised ball isnt the same as street ball. If it was a random 1V1 on a court with no refs for all the world's marbles. I take Klay. And I don't even second guess it.

Goose17
02-14-2015, 07:55 PM
Ummm... Those stats are totally relevant, because they show how reliant on assists Thompson is compared to how much scoring Harden does with the ball in his hands. If we're talking strictly scoring without the benefit of other players on the floor, Harden clearly has a significant edge. I don't know how you could possibly prove otherwise. :shrug:

Those stats are a reflection of the system the team is running. They don't tell you anything about a guys one on one skills.

The Warriors run a system that requires Klay to play off the ball making smart cuts and coming off screens. The Rockets run a system that is quite literally "give Harden the ball and hope he can win us the game".

80% of KDs shots are jump shots and 55% are assisted on. Those are both higher than Harden. Do you genuinely believe that Harden is going to take KD one on one? Those stats are meaningless when taken out of the NBA.

Jamal Crawford would destroy Harden one on one and he's not half the player Harden is. Street ball is nothing like actual organised basketball.

Htownballa1622
02-14-2015, 07:59 PM
Klay wins.

Harden is a shockingly bad man on man defender. This stuff about Klay not being able to dribble is either coming from haters or people who haven't watched enough of him this year. Sure he's not on the same level as Harden in that respect but he has developed a decent first step which would be more than sufficient for a one on one game against a guy that simply can't defend. On top of that he would shut Harden down, especially when there's no refs around to bail him out. Klay has a decent post game for a 2 guard, he's developed a good first step and he has a dead eye quick release.

Harden is still the better player that's not even debatable at this point (Imo). But professional ball or even organised ball isnt the same as street ball. If it was a random 1V1 on a court with no refs for all the world's marbles. I take Klay. And I don't even second guess it.

Lol. You realize harden is a better one on one defender than off ball defensively?

He routinely blocks jumpers (hard to do).

Harden wouldn't need refs. Klay is a good defender but knowing you've got help is different than playing one on one.

James has some of the deadliest crossover step backs. Klay wouldn't hold him without bogut or 2 other warriors behind him.


Klay can dribble but he's fairly predictable. He's going to take a few dribbles and pull up. At that point if james boxes out he gets the rebound.

Jumpers are less effective in one on one when the other can get to basket and Harden would one, two step his way straight there.

Goose17
02-14-2015, 08:05 PM
Lol. You realize harden is a better one on one defender than off ball defensively?

He routinely blocks jumpers (hard to do).

Harden wouldn't need refs. Klay is a good defender but knowing you've got help is different than playing one on one.

James has some of the deadliest crossover step backs. Klay wouldn't hold him without bogut or 2 other warriors behind him.


Klay can dribble but he's fairly predictable. He's going to take a few dribbles and pull up. At that point if james boxes out he gets the rebound.

Jumpers are less effective in one on one when the other can get to basket and Harden would one, two step his way straight there.

Klay gets to the basket way more these days and Harden is a shocking defender. I could get to the basket playing against Harden and I suck. Probably would miss the lay up but I would still get there.

Harden is a bad defender in every aspect I don't know what point you were trying to make there.

James has a good step back but you said it yourself, jumpers are less effective and Harden is a significantly worse shooter than Klay is. Off the dribble or any other way.

I just don't see a scenario where Harden wins. I can't imagine him being a good street ball player.

Defensively Harden would not get past Klay with any sort of consistency. He would have to take jump shots.

mngopher35
02-14-2015, 08:05 PM
I'd take harden

KnicksorBust
02-14-2015, 08:08 PM
Klay

Htownballa1622
02-14-2015, 08:10 PM
Klay gets to the basket way more these days and Harden is a shocking defender. I could get to the basket playing against Harden and I suck. Probably would miss the lay up but I would still get there.

Harden is a bad defender in every aspect I don't know what point you were trying to make there.

James has a good step back but you said it yourself, jumpers are less effective and Harden is a significantly worse shooter than Klay is. Off the dribble or any other way.

I just don't see a scenario where Harden wins. I can't imagine him being a good street ball player.

Defensively Harden would not get past Klay with any sort of consistency. He would have to take jump shots.

Dude. You're not in the nba. James would lock your *** up. I've seen him stay in front of many quick guys when focused. Klay isn't even quick like a westbrook or curry.

He's got a good first step but you can only use that before you dribble. Once klay starts dribbling he's not breaking anyone down with one on one moves.

Klay is great but yall are going too far with this stuff.

There's a reason during fiba it was pg,durant, and Harden playing one on ones.

Klay was probably shooting jumpers somewhere else.

Let's see how they fare tomorrow where ppl ACTUALLY try to play one on one.

I can promise u klay isn't going to shake someone and break them down one on one. Just not his game. (Not a slight)

Curry vs harden would be a MUCH better match up cuz curry has handles and can shoot.

Klay is ehh off dribble. But CAN shoot.

ThuglifeJ
02-14-2015, 08:26 PM
Honestly with no fouls being baited and it being a street ball 1v1..I think that would be one of the weakest 1v1s to date. You'd basically have stutter step back launches by Harden vs faking/misdirections or w.e klay would attempt to do to get off his shot. Neither has a good backdown or creativity in the post. Neither do well in half court 1v1 scenarios. Just a gross overall idea. Harden has some dribbles (usually in some level of transition though) and klay has some defense. So you can give it that.


I wouldn't watch it.


100 other 1v1 scenarios I'd rather imagine.

archdevil84
02-14-2015, 08:27 PM
i'll take klay thompson because i hate james harden. on a side note: dont mess with mightybossstone. he's one of the best psd posters

ThuglifeJ
02-14-2015, 08:32 PM
Now that I think about it.. Forgot how awful James is on D for a second in this scenario. It doesn't matter if he can get his shot off better, he's going to miss some (plenty) and in the meantime give up a layup if it's wanted every single time on the other end.

He's gonna have to hit some threes to even have a chance at the W.


This is pretty pointless tho no offense.

Who cares?

ThuglifeJ
02-14-2015, 08:37 PM
Ummm... Those stats are totally relevant, because they show how reliant on assists Thompson is compared to how much scoring Harden does with the ball in his hands. If we're talking strictly scoring without the benefit of other players on the floor, Harden clearly has a significant edge. I don't know how you could possibly prove otherwise. :shrug:

Those stats are a reflection of the system the team is running. They don't tell you anything about a guys one on one skills.

The Warriors run a system that requires Klay to play off the ball making smart cuts and coming off screens. The Rockets run a system that is quite literally "give Harden the ball and hope he can win us the game".

80% of KDs shots are jump shots and 55% are assisted on. Those are both higher than Harden. Do you genuinely believe that Harden is going to take KD one on one? Those stats are meaningless when taken out of the NBA.

Jamal Crawford would destroy Harden one on one and he's not half the player Harden is. Street ball is nothing like actual organised basketball.

This should be simple, simple knowledge. Come on MBT you're better than that.

Redrum187
02-14-2015, 09:04 PM
I'll be honest... I thought it would be easily James Harden, but after reading several responses, I still think Harden would win, but it's A LOT closer than I first thought.

Klay is a lot taller/longer than James and has astronomically better defensive instinct which would make it competitive. However, I think James has shown (in small flashes) that he is a capable defender (why he doesn't all the time? no freaking idea...) and would ultimately still get the win over Klay.

Saddletramp
02-14-2015, 09:05 PM
This is pretty pointless tho no offense.

Who cares?


We actually agree on something.

Chrisclover
02-14-2015, 09:09 PM
Klay defense one on one vs Harden's dribbling? Harden wins.

Can klay even dribble?
Everyone can dribble, even the baby [emoji12] lol

Chronz
02-14-2015, 09:19 PM
Actually the gap widens. Its not like you dont call fouls in streetball, if he gets hacked he gets hacked and gets another try. And Klay is a great defender because he understands spacing and where to lead his man into the help, 1 on 1, you're on an island and it becomes more about physical strength. Klay is still a better man defender, but if you subtract Harden's ball watching routines, hes actually not a bad defender, particularly in the post.

I dont see Klay being able to come off any staggered screens, pin downs to get separation and he DEFINITELY doesn't have Hardens ball handling. Harden will create separation and bullrush his way to the rim, where he either scores or calls a foul and tries again, or he gets both. Klay doesn't have the same hesitation game to get a guy moving in the wrong direction.

Harden wins this easily.

krazylegz
02-14-2015, 09:21 PM
lolol,harden and it isnt even close

Chronz
02-14-2015, 09:24 PM
I'm really surprised by the amount of Harden votes. Just going off of previous head to head matchups, I've seen Klay guard Harden very well and score easily against him. I'd take Klay without a doubt. I think Klay benefited a lot this past summer having to face Harden during Team USA practices.


LOL at applying these stats to a one on one matchup where Harden couldn't guard him and Klay could lock him up.

It makes more sense than applying a team defensive scheme against 1 player in a 1 on 1 game.

Chronz
02-14-2015, 09:25 PM
harden is better off the dribble, but you don't free throw's in 1v1. klay would have a good chance at taking it

You still respect the call tho. So really, if this is the best complaint you guys can come up with, it shows why Harden would win. It also shows how petty you guys are. My 2 cents

Chronz
02-14-2015, 09:52 PM
Klay wins.

Harden is a shockingly bad man on man defender. This stuff about Klay not being able to dribble is either coming from haters or people who haven't watched enough of him this year. Sure he's not on the same level as Harden in that respect but he has developed a decent first step which would be more than sufficient for a one on one game against a guy that simply can't defend. On top of that he would shut Harden down, especially when there's no refs around to bail him out. Klay has a decent post game for a 2 guard, he's developed a good first step and he has a dead eye quick release.

Harden is still the better player that's not even debatable at this point (Imo). But professional ball or even organised ball isnt the same as street ball. If it was a random 1V1 on a court with no refs for all the world's marbles. I take Klay. And I don't even second guess it.

Shockingly bad man defender? Hes actually more prone to ball watching. His man defense is above average and post defense is actually a strength of his, so much so that I recall him being the one to check David Lee when he was tearing it up last year. Harden can keep up with any initial dribble, containing a predictable driver, no matter how quick is easier than keeping an elusive dribbler in front of you. Thats what made Tmac so special, he had both tools at his disposal.


Those stats are a reflection of the system the team is running. They don't tell you anything about a guys one on one skills.

The Warriors run a system that requires Klay to play off the ball making smart cuts and coming off screens. The Rockets run a system that is quite literally "give Harden the ball and hope he can win us the game".

80% of KDs shots are jump shots and 55% are assisted on. Those are both higher than Harden. Do you genuinely believe that Harden is going to take KD one on one? Those stats are meaningless when taken out of the NBA.

Teams tend to base their offensive gameplan with their players skillset in mind. And statistical argument is still necessary because you can identify the variables as you just did. And to that point we can still isolate KD's isolation scoring. Just like we can with Klay and Harden.

KD is the complete weapon as a scorer because of his elite ability at both spotting up and creating his own, thats why hes more efficient than both. In isolation settings, Harden (despite receiving more defensive attention than Klay) scores at a rate of 1.06 PPP and he and LeBron had by far the highest reliance on isolation this year. Nobody with his frequency touches his efficiency, Klay included.

But thats with free throws. If we take out ft's we have to ask are we still counting 3's? Just how much are we changing the game? Klay shoots 44% from the field and sports an eFG% of 45% in isolation. Harden has a lower FG% (43%) but MUCH higher efg% (50).

Then theres the fact that despite not being the passing threat that Harden is, or maybe its BECAUSE of that lack of vision, hes actually more turnover prone with those select few possessions where he isolates. Imagine his ball protection if Harden didn't have the responsibility of creating for his teammates.


Jamal Crawford would destroy Harden one on one and he's not half the player Harden is. Street ball is nothing like actual organised basketball.
Didn't they both compete against each other in those summer pro-ams? Anyways this is 1 v 1 and Harden would pummel twig JC, you've officially gone off the rails with your hatred bro. Its not healthy.

Chronz
02-14-2015, 09:58 PM
Now that I think about it.. Forgot how awful James is on D for a second in this scenario. It doesn't matter if he can get his shot off better, he's going to miss some (plenty) and in the meantime give up a layup if it's wanted every single time on the other end.

He's gonna have to hit some threes to even have a chance at the W.


This is pretty pointless tho no offense.

Who cares?
James is awful in a team setting because he ball watches. Luckily theres only 1 person who requires his attention in this situation.

Pakman
02-14-2015, 10:23 PM
I'm not a fan of harden but he would win. It plays to his strengths. He's a good 1v1 player. Unfortunately that will be his downfall and why he will never win a title as the #1 option.

FOBolous
02-14-2015, 10:58 PM
Dude, you have an obsession as much as you want Klay to be better than Harden... no matter how you spin it, he's not!

lol this.

Tony_Starks
02-15-2015, 12:53 AM
Harden all day.

Hangin n Wangin
02-15-2015, 01:08 AM
Notice that I'm not the only one that's finding these threads to be unnecessary and obsessive. And if you want to talk basketball, there's literally an infinite number of topics you could have made a thread about. But you're way, way too focused on this Harden vs. Thompson debate, despite the fact that it's an argument you're clearly losing and will continue to lose.

You find this thread unnecessary and obsessive, yet you have absolutely no problem commenting in every single Lebron/Kobe thread. Seems a bit hypocritical.

DillyDill
02-15-2015, 01:42 AM
Harden by landslide, yall forgot you call your own fouls in streetball

Cash
02-15-2015, 02:59 AM
If we're talking 1on1, isolation basketball, that's really not Klay's game and i'm a huge Klay Thompson fan. James Harden is all about those difficult, off balance shots. Klay just wants to come off screens, beat you off the dribble, and pop 3's in your face.

Take away the element of an actual game, and i think Harden's scoring ability would be too much for Klay's D or shooting touch.

Shlumpledink
02-15-2015, 03:21 AM
Harden is too strong to guard 1 on 1 at rucker. He also has a lot of herky jerky moves off the wrong foot which make him hard to guard, especially while being a southpaw. I think Klay is the best, but Harden is too much to guard when the rules are lax.

True Rocket
02-15-2015, 10:23 AM
Harden would put Klay on skates 1 on 1.

Tony_Starks
02-15-2015, 12:23 PM
Having seen Harden at Artesia and in the Drew league I can say he is a monster one on one. Like And1 type monster. That's why its so disappointing seeing him cheapen his game the way he does....

CluTcH_c1tY
02-15-2015, 12:42 PM
Actually the gap widens. Its not like you dont call fouls in streetball, if he gets hacked he gets hacked and gets another try. And Klay is a great defender because he understands spacing and where to lead his man into the help, 1 on 1, you're on an island and it becomes more about physical strength. Klay is still a better man defender, but if you subtract Harden's ball watching routines, hes actually not a bad defender, particularly in the post.

I dont see Klay being able to come off any staggered screens, pin downs to get separation and he DEFINITELY doesn't have Hardens ball handling. Harden will create separation and bullrush his way to the rim, where he either scores or calls a foul and tries again, or he gets both. Klay doesn't have the same hesitation game to get a guy moving in the wrong direction.

Harden wins this easily.
Not much is needed after this post Chronz hit the head on the nail. Harden is a bad off the ball defender he watches the ball a lot more than his man. When it comes to one on one he's a capable defender. Klay has a very predictable dribble he's not a one on one type player he needs to be assisted. Harden easily he just has to many moves in his arsenal he would put Klay on skates the whole match. If you remember the USA team practices Harden was giving Durant and Paul George buckets as they all played one on one. I'd take Paul George's defense over Klay Thompson any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

TheIlladelph16
02-15-2015, 01:40 PM
Harden pretty easily here.

IMO, Harden's strengths are only amplified in a 1 v. 1 matchup, whereas Klay's strengths tend to be a little more reliant on his team and scheme. It's not like fouls don't exist or don't count in 1 v. 1... Harden would just get the ball back and try again. He's also turned himself into a better defender than people give him credit for and it's not as if Klay is a deadly ball handler.

HoopsDrive
02-15-2015, 02:26 PM
Harden is a better man-to-man defender than people give him credit for so in a 1-on-1 he would actually have an advantage due to no one else to keep track of. His real inability is when the ball is not with the player he's guarding, he just goes to sleep. From the 10 or so games I've seen of the Rockets this year I have to say that his man-to-man defense is actually pretty decent, it's when he's supposed to run through screens and watch the lanes that he gets completely fooled. He's one of the most unaware players I've ever seen, just takes naps during games.

In a 1-on-1 with Klay I'm taking Harden. His handles would wreck Klay.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-15-2015, 02:45 PM
Harden is a better man-to-man defender than people give him credit for so in a 1-on-1 he would actually have an advantage due to no one else to keep track of. His real inability is when the ball is not with the player he's guarding, he just goes to sleep. From the 10 or so games I've seen of the Rockets this year I have to say that his man-to-man defense is actually pretty decent, it's when he's supposed to run through screens and watch the lanes that he gets completely fooled. He's one of the most unaware players I've ever seen, just takes naps during games.

In a 1-on-1 with Klay I'm taking Harden. His handles would wreck Klay.
x2 another solid post. The only thing Klay can beat Harden at is having a better looking girlfriend that's about it.

Sadds The Gr8
02-15-2015, 02:54 PM
Lol people saying Klay are outta their ****ing minds. Saying he locks harden down in games is so stupid because their are defensive schemes involved. 1v1 is a completely different animal. And to the idiots complaining about harden not getting ft's, you respect obvious hacks in street ball and give the ball back so harden would just keep the ball anyways...

This isn't even close. Can't believe this is a discussion. Harden would win by at least 10 in a game to 21

b@llhog24
02-15-2015, 02:54 PM
Honestly can't believe this is a debate.

b@llhog24
02-15-2015, 02:56 PM
x2 another solid post. The only thing Klay can beat Harden at is having a better looking girlfriend that's about it.

Just looked her up and all I've got to say is :drool:

PurpleLynch
02-15-2015, 03:09 PM
A better question imo would be: Iverson in his prime vs Harden,who wins in a one on one?

Tony_Starks
02-15-2015, 03:13 PM
A better question imo would be: Iverson in his prime vs Harden,who wins in a one on one?


AI would literally make Harden fall at least 3 times....and it wouldn't be a flop this time!

Sadds The Gr8
02-15-2015, 03:43 PM
A better question imo would be: Iverson in his prime vs Harden,who wins in a one on one?


AI would literally make Harden fall at least 3 times....and it wouldn't be a flop this time!
It would depend who misses quicker. Both could go on like 10 pt scoring streaks without the other guy touching the ball. It's basically a tossup

Goose17
02-15-2015, 03:52 PM
Didn't they both compete against each other in those summer pro-ams? Anyways this is 1 v 1 and Harden would pummel twig JC, you've officially gone off the rails with your hatred bro. Its not healthy.

I don't hate Harden at all. I just understand the difference of organised ball and street ball. Crawford was built for street ball, his handles are absolutely insane and when you can get away with more (in regards to carrying), forget about it. Combine that with the fact that Harden couldn't guard a 6th grade girl. I think Crawford would turn Harden out. Its so one sided it's not even worth discussing any further. Sorry, we're not going to agree on this.

A guy like the Professor would destroy Harden in street ball but you'll never see his bum *** in the league.

FOBolous
02-15-2015, 04:08 PM
I don't hate Harden at all. I just understand the difference of organised ball and street ball. Crawford was built for street ball, his handles are absolutely insane and when you can get away with more (in regards to carrying), forget about it. Combine that with the fact that Harden couldn't guard a 6th grade girl. I think Crawford would turn Harden out. Its so one sided it's not even worth discussing any further. Sorry, we're not going to agree on this.

A guy like the Professor would destroy Harden in street ball but you'll never see his bum *** in the league.

lol can't tell if you are serious about that part with the professor

CluTcH_c1tY
02-15-2015, 04:13 PM
I don't hate Harden at all. I just understand the difference of organised ball and street ball. Crawford was built for street ball, his handles are absolutely insane and when you can get away with more (in regards to carrying), forget about it. Combine that with the fact that Harden couldn't guard a 6th grade girl. I think Crawford would turn Harden out. Its so one sided it's not even worth discussing any further. Sorry, we're not going to agree on this.

A guy like the Professor would destroy Harden in street ball but you'll never see his bum *** in the league.
Your posts are usually solid but come on bro his defense is not that bad. One on one with no screens and not having to chase his defender he would be very capable. Also do you realize those and 1 ballers don't even play defense? Lol the professor wouldn't even get passed Harden.

valade16
02-15-2015, 04:22 PM
I don't hate Harden at all. I just understand the difference of organised ball and street ball. Crawford was built for street ball, his handles are absolutely insane and when you can get away with more (in regards to carrying), forget about it. Combine that with the fact that Harden couldn't guard a 6th grade girl. I think Crawford would turn Harden out. Its so one sided it's not even worth discussing any further. Sorry, we're not going to agree on this.

A guy like the Professor would destroy Harden in street ball but you'll never see his bum *** in the league.

I think you are underrating Harden's man on man defense. Harden's biggest weakness on defense is his awareness and tendency to watch the ball and get caught napping on off ball movement.

Neither of those will matter much in a one on one game, it will be straight man defense. It's not like Klay is gonna make any backdoor cuts. Harden's handles, combined with his ability to shoot off a dribble as well as penetrate mean he would most likely beat Klay.

Goose17
02-15-2015, 04:33 PM
I love the thought process some people have. His help defense is worse so that makes his man on man defense good?

No. His man on man defense is awful. His help defense etc is even worse.

And his "ability to penetrate" means nothing. He wouldn't get past Klay. Klay is too good defensively. Harden would be forced into taking jump shots all game.

Meanwhile Klay has a decent first step and it might not be great but I don't see how Harden could stop him. It may as well be an inanimate object defending him. It would be like dribbling around a cone.

Vee-Rex
02-15-2015, 04:44 PM
I like the stats people are trying to use. They say:

Klay is a little taller!
Klay is a better two-way player!
Klay has a quick first step!

Lol, anyone who has played street ball all their life understand what kind of players are suited to it. Just because Harden doesn't defend in the NBA doesn't mean he couldn't defend 1 on 1 at the Rucker. In fact, 1on1 streetball is so deeply built off passion and pride I bet a lot of NBA's notsogood defenders would defend well. Competitiveness is key on the street.

I'm going with Harden in this because 1on1, with a lot of pride on the line he won't be a ghost on the defensive end. People who play street ball know this.

BoSox47
02-15-2015, 04:50 PM
Klay thompson would win. Harden cant play defense at all.

Saddletramp
02-15-2015, 04:55 PM
You know the thread needs to end when the only one still arguing for Klay is a Warriors homer that said:
I could get to the basket playing against Harden and I suck. Probably would miss the lay up but I would still get there.

Put this thread out if it's misery already.

Also, somebody block PSD on lol's phone. At least his thread making abilities.

valade16
02-15-2015, 04:58 PM
I love the thought process some people have. His help defense is worse so that makes his man on man defense good?

No. His man on man defense is awful. His help defense etc is even worse.

And his "ability to penetrate" means nothing. He wouldn't get past Klay. Klay is too good defensively. Harden would be forced into taking jump shots all game.

Meanwhile Klay has a decent first step and it might not be great but I don't see how Harden could stop him. It may as well be an inanimate object defending him. It would be like dribbling around a cone.

No it isn't. This is a great explanation of what his defense is:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2268001-james-hardens-defense-keys-houston-rockets-hot-start-no-really#articles/2268001-james-hardens-defense-keys-houston-rockets-hot-start-no-really

Hardenís defense last season was either pretty good, or it was nonexistent. If his man had the ball, Harden was a largely solid defensive player. He was never confused as a lockdown defender, but when engaged, he could be effective.

By February, the Rockets increased how often they switched on screens, often putting Harden in matchups against big men who rushed to post him up inside. But with unusual strength for a shooting guard and a clear challenge, Harden was at his best.

His issues were when his man moved behind the ball. With Harden resting or just inattentive, he was often exposed for failing to get back defensively or pay attention on backdoor cuts, giving up layups and filling the video.

Once again, his man to man defense is not bad and could certainly stop Klay since Klay doesn't have a very good first step and is not nearly as good at shooting off the dribble as he when he is assisted.

Here's another article talking about it:

http://bballbreakdown.com/2014/12/29/james-hardens-simple-yet-substantial-defensive-improvements/

Hardenís defensive Real Plus-Minus (RPM) was poor last year. Harden ranked 68th out of 78 eligible shooting guards with a defensive RPM of -2.84, ranking behind such poor defenders as Kevin Martin, Jodie Meeks, and Anthony Morrow. The Rockets as a team ranked 13th in the league in defensive rating, allowing 106.3 points per 100 possessions. Their defense was mediocre, despite having a ball stopper in Patrick Beverley and a rim protector in Dwight Howard who ranked sixth and fourth at their positions respectively in defensive RPM. And James Harden was a big part of that.

Hardenís defense and his teamís defense have improved significantly this year. Through 9 games, Hardenís defensive RPM has rocketed up to a rating of +1.37, sixth among eligible shooting guards and behind only good to great defenders in Andre Roberson, Klay Thompson, Tony Allen, Danny Green and Jared Dudley.

It also talks about Harden's biggest weakness:

Last year, you would regularly see Harden completely lose his man because he was only watching the ball handler. That resulted in lots of easy backdoor cuts like the two below.

Once again, Harden does not have terrible man to man defense. It's not bad. What he struggles at, is watching the ball and not followin off ball movement. Things he will not have to worry about in a one on one game.

Harden would win more often than he lost.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 05:17 PM
I'm really surprised by the amount of Harden votes. Just going off of previous head to head matchups, I've seen Klay guard Harden very well and score easily against him. I'd take Klay without a doubt. I think Klay benefited a lot this past summer having to face Harden during Team USA practices.

Agreed. And LOL at bosstone using assists as a point in saying Klay can't score in 1 on 1 sitations or that he is dependant on other players and can't create his own shots. Flawed logic if i've ever seen it.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 05:17 PM
Did valade just quote Bleacher Report? :confused: Bless his heart.

Goose17
02-15-2015, 05:24 PM
Did valade just quote Bleacher Report? :confused: Bless his heart.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Goose17
02-15-2015, 05:25 PM
You know the thread needs to end when the only one still arguing for Klay is a Warriors homer that said:
.

Hmm... you should take a look around the thread. There's non-warriors fans arguing for Klay as well.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-15-2015, 05:26 PM
Did valade just quote Bleacher Report? :confused: Bless his heart.
I don't know why you call him out on his source he explained Harden's defense in full detail. What's actually funny is thought of you seriously thinking Klay would have a shot at betting Harden one on one. Give it up bro, your team is probably the best on the NBA relish that you don't need the validation of knowing Klay is better than Harden.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 05:29 PM
Klay wins.

Harden is a shockingly bad man on man defender. This stuff about Klay not being able to dribble is either coming from haters or people who haven't watched enough of him this year. Sure he's not on the same level as Harden in that respect but he has developed a decent first step which would be more than sufficient for a one on one game against a guy that simply can't defend. On top of that he would shut Harden down, especially when there's no refs around to bail him out. Klay has a decent post game for a 2 guard, he's developed a good first step and he has a dead eye quick release.

Harden is still the better player that's not even debatable at this point (Imo). But professional ball or even organised ball isnt the same as street ball. If it was a random 1V1 on a court with no refs for all the world's marbles. I take Klay. And I don't even second guess it.

Great post. Hit the nail on the head here. Sound logic, and a good summary of the matchup.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 06:07 PM
Hmm... you should take a look around the thread. There's non-warriors fans arguing for Klay as well.

You mean laker fans and houston haters? Lol

Come on dude. You're not THAT kind of poster. Nows not the thread to pull out the "lol" special homer card.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 06:10 PM
Agreed. And LOL at bosstone using assists as a point in saying Klay can't score in 1 on 1 sitations or that he is dependant on other players and can't create his own shots. Flawed logic if i've ever seen it.

He used it to show that he is assisted on many of his points.

What (other than homerific beliefs ) leads you to believe why klay doesn't score more unassisted or in a one on one way?

He just chooses not to display his offensive arsenal?

lol, please
02-15-2015, 06:10 PM
Yea, being objective about the flaws in Hardens game = Houston hater. Makes sense. :rolleyes:

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 06:11 PM
Yea, being objective about the flaws in Hardens game = Houston hater. Makes sense. :rolleyes:

So ThuglifeJ isn't a houston hater? Have u seen my sig? Use half a brain here man.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 06:22 PM
So ThuglifeJ isn't a houston hater? Have u seen my sig? Use half a brain here man.

I laugh at that list every time I see your sig as well. :laugh2:

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 06:24 PM
I laugh at that list every time I see your sig as well. :laugh2:

There ya go ;)

ThuglifeJ
02-15-2015, 06:51 PM
Not sure I understand why these articles (usually Houston blog writers) need to exist 'explaining Hardens defense'. If he was anything acceptable on defense there wouldn't need to be articles explaining anything. If you play defense then play it, not that hard. If he's gonna blow it on D, then he's gonna get made fun of for it, that's HIS fault.

It sounds like a woman who needs to cling to some b.s. just to justify something wrong. Females lovvee doing that. Houston, don't be that.

ThuglifeJ
02-15-2015, 06:55 PM
Hmm... you should take a look around the thread. There's non-warriors fans arguing for Klay as well.

You mean laker fans and houston haters? Lol

Come on dude. You're not THAT kind of poster. Nows not the thread to pull out the "lol" special homer card.

You should go venture to like Real or other sports forums every once in a while.. Majority people actually disapprove of Harden even more over there. Only difference is they don't have a big Houston defense heard so it's even more definitive. So I wouldn't label every one a 'hater' in which you like to lean on. Even Sports center pokes fun at the Rockets a lot. Look around.

mightybosstone
02-15-2015, 06:58 PM
Well, it looks like Harden wins again. :clap::up::bow::cheer::dance::win::win::win:

I suppose lol will just have to create another thread comparing Harden and Thompson from another different angle and keep doing this over and over again until he gets different results. You know what might work? Go post this in the Warriors forum. Because the only people who are going to vote for Thompson are Golden State fans and Harden haters.

ThuglifeJ
02-15-2015, 07:05 PM
Agreed. And LOL at bosstone using assists as a point in saying Klay can't score in 1 on 1 sitations or that he is dependant on other players and can't create his own shots. Flawed logic if i've ever seen it.

He used it to show that he is assisted on many of his points.

What (other than homerific beliefs ) leads you to believe why klay doesn't score more unassisted or in a one on one way?

He just chooses not to display his offensive arsenal?

What does it matter? So he's good at scoring in a team dynamic? He's playing next to STEPH CURRY. Let's be intelligent here. Moving the ball for good shots is the Warriors make up. What is Klay suppose to do? Drop the ball next time he's passed to for a shot? Start chucking more to get his 'points unassisted' up?
He might just score 37 points in a quarter or something if he did that.


Oh... Bet you cringed when that happened.




Klay wins simply because Harden doesn't play defense or know how to, Klay is a good NBA scorer so he'd find a way to score on a poor defender every time. Harden would have more isolation skills but it doesn't matter because he won't make every step back and he won't make every well defended possession while he on the contrary give up a basket on the other end.

But this is dumb anyways both have flaws for a 1v1 matchup. The better thread is, can anyone beat Jamal Crawford 1v1 at the rucker? That dude would kill it.

mightybosstone
02-15-2015, 07:08 PM
Agreed. And LOL at bosstone using assists as a point in saying Klay can't score in 1 on 1 sitations or that he is dependant on other players and can't create his own shots. Flawed logic if i've ever seen it.

:laugh: Seriously, I love your screen name, because it exemplifies you perfectly. Every time you post, I think the very phrase by which you name yourself.

I wasn't using "assists" as a way to determine who would be a better 1 on 1 scorer. I basically proved that the vast majority of Thompson's FGA come off of assists, whereas Harden takes the vast majority of his own attempts with the ball already in his hands. Harden is far less dependent on other players to get his attempts, and that's why he would kill Thompson in a 1 on 1 matchup.

It's not flawed logic. It's common sense that you refuse to ignore, because you're easily the biggest Warriors homer on this site by a mile.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 07:10 PM
You should go venture to like Real or other sports forums every once in a while.. Majority people actually disapprove of Harden even more over there. Only difference is they don't have a big Houston defense heard so it's even more definitive. So I wouldn't label every one a 'hater' in which you like to lean on. Even Sports center pokes fun at the Rockets a lot. Look around.

Wanna know the difference between you and I?

I know who i'm addressing while you don't. I don't speak off of hate or in generalities.

"Sportscenter" is a notorious network at hating or dickriding. They usually pick one side and feed that **** to the masses where you sheep eat it up collectively.

I can formulate my own opinion based on many different factors.

"If he was anything acceptable on defense there wouldn't need to be articles explaining anything."

Not everything is so black and white. It's not difficult to comprehend that Harden is worse off ball than on ball. He's actually ok on ball. There's not just DEFENSE. There's one on one defense, team defense, off ball, on ball, help defense, rotations, etc.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 07:14 PM
What does it matter? So he's good at scoring in a team dynamic? He's playing next to STEPH CURRY. Let's be intelligent here. Moving the ball for good shots is the Warriors make up. What is Klay suppose to do? Drop the ball next time he's passed to for a shot? Start chucking more to get his 'points unassisted' up?
He might just score 37 points in a quarter or something if he did that.


Oh... Bet you cringed when that happened.




Klay wins simply because Harden doesn't play defense or know how to, Klay is a good NBA scorer so he'd find a way to score on a poor defender every time. Harden would have more isolation skills but it doesn't matter because he won't make every step back and he won't make every well defended possession while he on the contrary give up a basket on the other end.

But this is dumb anyways both have flaws for a 1v1 matchup. The better thread is, can anyone beat Jamal Crawford 1v1 at the rucker? That dude would kill it.

Klay is good at scoring in a team dynamic but that doesn't translate seamlessly into a 1 on 1 game. Once he puts the ball down, he must create for himself. You act as if Klay would hit every jumper while Harden misses everyone.

Difference isÖHarden would attack more than Klay so that disproves your logic that Klay would beat him. Klay would all of a sudden score EVERY time against Harden? LMAOÖ

Funny that you then bring up Crawford but forget that HE would have to play defense too.

PurpleLynch
02-15-2015, 07:29 PM
It would depend who misses quicker. Both could go on like 10 pt scoring streaks without the other guy touching the ball. It's basically a tossup

Yes,that was my original thought too. I just thought that Iverson vs Harden would be a better thread imo.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 08:22 PM
So a player gets most of his shots via assists and the conclusion is that he can't create for himself. Got it. :rolleyes:

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 08:28 PM
So a player gets most of his shots via assists and the conclusion is that he can't create for himself. Got it. :rolleyes:

No but likewise should we draw a conclusion that he can? Question goes both ways.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 08:30 PM
No but likewise should we draw a conclusion that he can? Question goes both ways.
But we know curry draws defenders and the offense relies on passing and spreading the floor, everyone's assists are up on our team this year, and when he went off for a historic 3rd quarter against the Kings, they were clearly trying to shut him down and the other players on the floor kept feeding him the ball. If it was against the Rockets the exact same thing happens.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 08:32 PM
But we know curry draws defenders and the offense relies on passing and spreading the floor, everyone's assists are up on our team this year, and when he went off for a historic 3rd quarter against the Kings, they were clearly trying to shut him down and the other players on the floor kept feeding him the ball. If it was against the Rockets the exact same thing happens.

"the other players on the floor kept feeding him the ball."

We're talking 1 on 1. Nobody else there to feed ball.

lol, please
02-15-2015, 08:35 PM
"the other players on the floor kept feeding him the ball."

We're talking 1 on 1. Nobody else there to feed ball.
Exactly, which is why I fail to see how it's relevant and bosstone brings it up like klay would be exposed offensively without a teammate

KnicksorBust
02-15-2015, 08:36 PM
Nearly all of the advantages someone would have in a 1 v1 go to Klay.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2015, 08:37 PM
Exactly, which is why I fail to see how it's relevant and bosstone brings it up like klay would be exposed offensively without a teammate

Well I don't think he meant Klay would get exposed offensively. It just shows tendencies of HOW they score.

Klay is assisted more often than not.

He can surely dribble if needed but not like James. Not a diss. Just facts.

BoSox47
02-15-2015, 09:04 PM
Exactly, which is why I fail to see how it's relevant and bosstone brings it up like klay would be exposed offensively without a teammate

Harden is not exposing anyone with his defense.

mightybosstone
02-15-2015, 10:31 PM
So a player gets most of his shots via assists and the conclusion is that he can't create for himself. Got it. :rolleyes:

So you post a pointless thread asking fans which player they'd rather have, and when the vast majority vote in the favor of one player, you need to create another thread asking essentially the exact same question in a slightly different manner even though the conclusion is ultimately the same? Got it. :rolleyes:

lol, please
02-15-2015, 11:01 PM
Um, not sure how the questions "who would you build a team around" and "who wins in 1 on 1 in street ball" have anything to do with each other. Sure the same players are involved, but in very different contexts. :confused:

lol, please
02-15-2015, 11:02 PM
Harden is not exposing anyone with his defense.
Well said.

valade16
02-15-2015, 11:55 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing.

What about the other source that said the same thing?

I could find 50 sources that all say Harden is not a terrible man to man defender and his biggest weaknesses are off ball defense but what's the point?

If you don't realize that now it's because you're too biased to see it. Also, I don't think Klay is some Godly defender either. He's good but he's being massively overrated at this point.

lol, please
02-16-2015, 12:18 AM
Not sure if your being serious here, klay defense is underrated around here if anything

Verbal Christ
02-16-2015, 12:21 AM
What about the other source that said the same thing?

I could find 50 sources that all say Harden is not a terrible man to man defender and his biggest weaknesses are off ball defense but what's the point?

If you don't realize that now it's because you're too biased to see it. Also, I don't think Klay is some Godly defender either. He's good but he's being massively overrated at this point.

Well Said

True Rocket
02-16-2015, 01:09 AM
I don't hate Harden at all. I just understand the difference of organised ball and street ball. Crawford was built for street ball, his handles are absolutely insane and when you can get away with more (in regards to carrying), forget about it. Combine that with the fact that Harden couldn't guard a 6th grade girl. I think Crawford would turn Harden out. Its so one sided it's not even worth discussing any further. Sorry, we're not going to agree on this.

A guy like the Professor would destroy Harden in street ball but you'll never see his bum *** in the league.

I've seen the professor in real life..he's awful. I honestly think most of that stuff is acting.

BKLYNpigeon
02-16-2015, 03:06 AM
Klay might be good on defense but he doesn't have Bogut behind him to ell him out.

Harden would Destroy Klay 1 on 1.

FOBolous
02-16-2015, 03:59 AM
A better question imo would be: Iverson in his prime vs Harden,who wins in a one on one?

I'm going to be a homer and pick Harden. Iverson relied on free throws as much as Harden. In fact, he was celebrated for "sacrificing his body" and throwing himself at the paint. Harden may not have Iverson's handles but is just as good at getting into the paint and is a better shooter. I also believe Harden is too strong for Iverson to guard on defense.

Goose17
02-16-2015, 09:10 AM
:laugh: Seriously, I love your screen name, because it exemplifies you perfectly. Every time you post, I think the very phrase by which you name yourself.

I wasn't using "assists" as a way to determine who would be a better 1 on 1 scorer. I basically proved that the vast majority of Thompson's FGA come off of assists, whereas Harden takes the vast majority of his own attempts with the ball already in his hands. Harden is far less dependent on other players to get his attempts, and that's why he would kill Thompson in a 1 on 1 matchup.

It's not flawed logic. It's common sense that you refuse to ignore, because you're easily the biggest Warriors homer on this site by a mile.

majority of Durants points come off assists. Way more than Harden. You think Harden is better than him too?

Street ball and organised basketball are not the same. I don't understand why you find this so difficult to comprehend.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-16-2015, 11:04 AM
What is street ball? Is it like the longest yards version where Michael Irvin is allowed to beat up Adam Sandler and get no fouls called? Lol come on man get over it. I know you saw Harden isolate LeBron last night and got him with that nasty step back.

Mr.ATLHawks
02-16-2015, 11:10 AM
I remember hearing a few years ago when Harden first got to Houston. That Lebron, Kobe and a few others (names slip my mind) said Harden was the best street baller in the NBA. That aside...i would take Harden. Remember 1vs1 usually its Make It Take It so essentially Harden wouldnt be required to play a whole lot of defense. Only thing I could see a problem for Harden is Klays post game which is quite impressive for a guard.

Goose17
02-16-2015, 11:21 AM
What is street ball? Is it like the longest yards version where Michael Irvin is allowed to beat up Adam Sandler and get no fouls called? Lol come on man get over it. I know you saw Harden isolate LeBron last night and got him with that nasty step back.

I saw Harden isolate Lebron in an exhibition game where no defense was being played? Yep.

And if you don't know what street ball is you should maybe stop pretending to know so much about basketball.

KnickNyKnick
02-16-2015, 11:22 AM
Harden wins way more versatile.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-16-2015, 11:30 AM
I saw Harden isolate Lebron in an exhibition game where no defense was being played? Yep.

And if you don't know what street ball is you should maybe stop pretending to know so much about basketball.
Ummm Idk about that you did say the professor would get by Harden lol. That has to be the most ridiculous things anybody has said on PSD. I'm not questioning your knowledge about the sport in sure your well informed but that comment there was something else.

ThuglifeJ
02-16-2015, 11:38 AM
What is street ball? Is it like the longest yards version where Michael Irvin is allowed to beat up Adam Sandler and get no fouls called? Lol come on man get over it. I know you saw Harden isolate LeBron last night and got him with that nasty step back.

Haha reeeaacchhh

b@llhog24
02-16-2015, 12:12 PM
What about the other source that said the same thing?

I could find 50 sources that all say Harden is not a terrible man to man defender and his biggest weaknesses are off ball defense but what's the point?

If you don't realize that now it's because you're too biased to see it. Also, I don't think Klay is some Godly defender either. He's good but he's being massively overrated at this point.

Pretty much this.

Klay is from my hometown, best player we've ever had actually. But he's not beating Harden in a 1 on 1.

cmellofan15
02-16-2015, 12:19 PM
Harden would demolish Klay. the dude is built for one on one situations, offensively and defensively. don't get me wrong..Klay is great..but he's more dependent on a team offense (which he excels at tremendously) and his tremendous defense wouldn't be enough to stop Harden.

give me harden ten times out of ten, especially in a game of make it take it

Goose17
02-16-2015, 01:30 PM
Ummm Idk about that you did say the professor would get by Harden lol.

He would. Pretty much any "high level" street baller would. Crawford would even dice him. And someone mentioned Iverson? Forget about it, Harden would be sick from dizziness after AI runs circles around him. You get away with so much more in street ball, the handles these guys have are insane and when you can get away with more, against a below average defender like Harden where if you make it you take it? Nah, sorry. It's not even close enough to merit discussion imo.

You (and many others) disagree. That's fine, I'm not here to convince you, I was asked a question so I shared my opinion, everyone is entitled to do so, including yourself. We don't have to agree.

FOBolous
02-16-2015, 01:32 PM
James Harden played Kobe 1on1 before....or as close as you can get to a 1on1 game between professional players...and matched Kobe point for point back when he was still a 6th man on OKC

http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/watchthethrone/


Hardenís quest for greatness has been a decade-long percolation. The seed had long been planted in fertile ground. But it began to grow in an unlikely place: a hotbox Los Angeles gym in August during the 2011 NBA lockout. Harden showed up to play in the vaunted Drew League just as he had many times before.

Then Kobe Bryant showed up to play for the other team.

Bryant and Harden proceeded to turn the game into a full-court one-on-one showcase, trading crossovers, fadeaways and trash talk. Hardenís confidence rose with each possession, as did Bryantís admiration. He finished with 44 points. Bryant had 45 and the game-winner.

BoSox47
02-16-2015, 02:17 PM
Harden wins way more versatile.

Excuse me? While I would most likely take Harden to play on my team over Klay, Klay is definitely more versatile. He has an offensive and a defensive game. Harden is more one dimensional, seeing as that he is pretty bad defensively but his offensive game is outstanding.

lol, please
02-16-2015, 02:21 PM
Nearly all of the advantages someone would have in a 1 v1 go to Klay.
This is how I see it as well. More well rounded player, even though Harden is explosive and better offensively.

majority of Durants points come off assists. Way more than Harden. You think Harden is better than him too?

Street ball and organised basketball are not the same. I don't understand why you find this so difficult to comprehend.

Agreed. It's just not the same thing. The assists argument is weak, and it really just speaks on the offensive style of the team, people act like Klay is some scrub who can't create his own shot or would get blown by by Harden every drive, it's just ridiculous.

Verbal Christ
02-16-2015, 02:28 PM
LMAO ... "if at first you dont succeed, try, try again"

FOBolous
02-16-2015, 02:41 PM
This is how I see it as well. More well rounded player, even though Harden is explosive and better offensively.


Agreed. It's just not the same thing. The assists argument is weak, and it really just speaks on the offensive style of the team, people act like Klay is some scrub who can't create his own shot or would get blown by by Harden every drive, it's just ridiculous.

i completely disagree with everything in this post and in the posts you quoted. i will take the league's potential new MVP over a team's 2nd option any day.

NYKnickFanatic
02-16-2015, 02:46 PM
Who plays 1on1 to 21?

lol, please
02-16-2015, 03:36 PM
i completely disagree with everything in this post and in the posts you quoted. i will take the league's potential new MVP over a team's 2nd option any day.
He is a second option because he plays alongside curry, both are perfectly capable of running and carrying the offense imo. And Klay guards the opposing teams #1 option regularly.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-16-2015, 03:58 PM
He is a second option because he plays alongside curry, both are perfectly capable of running and carrying the offense imo. And Klay guards the opposing teams #1 option regularly.
Not that I'm hoping for an injury to Curry but I would like to see Thompson carry an offense by himself and have the opposing defense devoting most of their attention to him. On the flip side the Rockets lose Dwight for a large stretch of time yet Harden still keeps balling. We're comparing an MVP player to a 2nd option. Lol

ThuglifeJ
02-16-2015, 04:04 PM
I cannot believe someone brought up Iverson in this discussion.

Could you even imagine how hilarious that would be to watch Harden try to guard IVERSON 1v1. That idea is simply over before it starts. Hilarious.

Same with Klay even. Iverson would run circles around the both of them just Harden would be even funnier to watch on D in that situation.

ThuglifeJ
02-16-2015, 04:10 PM
He is a second option because he plays alongside curry, both are perfectly capable of running and carrying the offense imo. And Klay guards the opposing teams #1 option regularly.
Not that I'm hoping for an injury to Curry but I would like to see Thompson carry an offense by himself and have the opposing defense devoting most of their attention to him. On the flip side the Rockets lose Dwight for a large stretch of time yet Harden still keeps balling. We're comparing an MVP player to a 2nd option. Lol

Typical weak argument. You don't have to carry a team offensively to be the better player. Its just as admirable to be able to fit in and flourish in a team dynamic than to be taking the most shots on your team.

One is actually more beneficial to a teams success (the one you probably don't want to admit).

So Mo Williams is set to take over the team offensively while injuries prevail and drops a bunch of 30 point games I wouldn't even mention him in the same breath as having a Kawhi do it all Leonard for your team.

Add to that we've never even seen Klay be in that situation so how the f do you know for sure what make of it

Add to that Harden is not MVP, Curry is.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2015, 04:26 PM
no sane person would take jumpshots 1-1, unless they were unguarded completely. Harden's ability to put it on the deck and score at the rim would make this a very quick matchup.

1-1 is totally different than team basketball. With the space allowed, there isn't a person on earth that could keep Harden from getting a layup 4/5 times he started with the ball.

Goose17
02-16-2015, 04:35 PM
I cannot believe someone brought up Iverson in this discussion.

Could you even imagine how hilarious that would be to watch Harden try to guard IVERSON 1v1. That idea is simply over before it starts. Hilarious.

Same with Klay even. Iverson would run circles around the both of them just Harden would be even funnier to watch on D in that situation.

I agree. 100%

Verbal Christ
02-16-2015, 04:43 PM
no sane person would take jumpshots 1-1, unless they were unguarded completely. Harden's ability to put it on the deck and score at the rim would make this a very quick matchup.

1-1 is totally different than team basketball. With the space allowed, there isn't a person on earth that could keep Harden from getting a layup 4/5 times he started with the ball.

I agree 110%

CluTcH_c1tY
02-16-2015, 05:18 PM
no sane person would take jumpshots 1-1, unless they were unguarded completely. Harden's ability to put it on the deck and score at the rim would make this a very quick matchup.

1-1 is totally different than team basketball. With the space allowed, there isn't a person on earth that could keep Harden from getting a layup 4/5 times he started with the ball.
I agree 100% end thread drops mic and walks off.

lol, please
02-16-2015, 05:29 PM
no sane person would take jumpshots 1-1, unless they were unguarded completely. Harden's ability to put it on the deck and score at the rim would make this a very quick matchup.

1-1 is totally different than team basketball. With the space allowed, there isn't a person on earth that could keep Harden from getting a layup 4/5 times he started with the ball.
Have you even seen klay play defense? :confused: my goodness....

tr3ymill3r
02-16-2015, 05:47 PM
If anyone can provide a video to Klay Thompson dribbling the ball, driving to the paint or taking his man off the dribble I would enjoy seeing these UNICORNS!!!

Hawkeye15
02-16-2015, 05:48 PM
Have you even seen klay play defense? :confused: my goodness....

with that much space, peak Michael Cooper/Michael Jordan/Scottie Pippen can't keep someone like Harden from getting to the rim. 1-1 is totally different. There is no help. Ever. A guy like Harden will eventually beat you, there is no stopping it.

Goose17
02-16-2015, 06:09 PM
If anyone can provide a video to Klay Thompson dribbling the ball, driving to the paint or taking his man off the dribble I would enjoy seeing these UNICORNS!!!

If you don't know he's added a solid first step to his game and is attacking the rim way more this season then you clearly haven't been watching him this year. In which case my advice to you is; don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Meanwhile, if you can provide me with a video of James Harden locking someone down defensively and not flopping for an entire game in desperation to get to the free throw line. Please, link me. I would love to see these Unicorns.

Goose17
02-16-2015, 06:13 PM
A guy like Harden will eventually beat you, there is no stopping it.

Easy now. He's not some uncontainable force of nature. People have shut him down regularly in the NBA, to the point where he only gets points up by getting free throws (none of those one on one). And at what point did he "beat" his man during the finals? Unless you mean beating you in a choking contest?

Harden is an elite player but people need to quit overrating him. Nobody is unstoppable. No one.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-16-2015, 06:15 PM
Easy now. He's not some uncontainable force of nature. People have shut him down regularly in the NBA, to the point where he only gets points up by getting free throws (none of those one on one). And at what point did he "beat" his man during the finals? Unless you mean beating you in a choking contest?

Harden is an elite player but people need to quit overrating him. Nobody is unstoppable. No one.
People need to quit overeating Thompson he's a solid player but not in Harden's tier.

Goose17
02-16-2015, 06:17 PM
People need to quit overeating Thompson he's a solid player but not in Harden's tier.

He's not far from it though, definitely the better two way player. Harden trumps him offensively though, without question.

And one on one I still think Klay takes it, sorry.

JAZZNC
02-16-2015, 06:23 PM
I can't believe people actually think Klay could win. Obviously anything can happen, but Harden obviously has the best one in one skill set. And people make out like Klay is Scottie Pippen on D. He can play D but he isn't the stopper people make him to be. Harden is just as good if he commits.

Like I said, anything can happen but I feel Harden wins very easily. I can't see how anyone coud watch the two objectively and say Klay would win.

Htownballa1622
02-16-2015, 06:51 PM
Meanwhile, if you can provide me with a video of James Harden locking someone down defensively and not flopping for an entire game in desperation to get to the free throw line. Please, link me. I would love to see these Unicorns.

James Harden's defense on Kobe Bryant: http://youtu.be/63TDVWnZ5K8

Cal827
02-16-2015, 06:59 PM
Harden.

I've said in other threads that I would prefer Thompson over Harden due to defensive reasons, but I admitted that I have a bias for guys who have consistently been good defenders (I'm aware that Harden has been much better defensively this year than in past, but I want to see it for a few years).

This scenario is absolutely different. While Thompson is putting up good numbers, I think a fair bit of it has to do with the system he plays in. If it's 1v1, then he won't have guys around him like Curry, Lee, Green, Iggy and the others to space out defense and would have to deal with Harden by himself. Harden (despite what people might think about the free throws, which I don't exactly get cause we usually give accolades to the ones who can get to the line a lot, and most of them occasionally flop too lol), is the best SG in the league offensively without a doubt, and quite possibly, in the top 3-5 when it comes to offensive players in the game (Behind Lebron/Durant for sure, Curry/Harden/Melo/Westbrook all could be in the top 5).

If we're going off this year alone, the I can see Harden making the required stops, and then pushing the ball on Thompson offensively to win it.

I think a more interesting match-up would be Steph vs Harden.

mightybosstone
02-16-2015, 07:17 PM
Um, not sure how the questions "who would you build a team around" and "who wins in 1 on 1 in street ball" have anything to do with each other. Sure the same players are involved, but in very different contexts. :confused:

Same players. Essentially the same thread. And you were proven wrong in both.

mightybosstone
02-16-2015, 07:18 PM
If you don't know he's added a solid first step to his game and is attacking the rim way more this season then you clearly haven't been watching him this year. In which case my advice to you is; don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Meanwhile, if you can provide me with a video of James Harden locking someone down defensively and not flopping for an entire game in desperation to get to the free throw line. Please, link me. I would love to see these Unicorns.

And with that phrase, you took your point too far and look like a complete fool. You're better than this, Goose. That's pathetic and wildly inaccurate.

Edit: As per your request, here's a solid video of Harden's defensive efforts this season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP4eXW9y7g

If you want to see a video of James Harden scoring without flopping, just Google "James Harden highlight" and watch the dozens upon dozens of videos of him doing unbelievable things offensively. A child can do it. You might even be able to do it, Goose, if you try hard enough. ;)

valade16
02-16-2015, 07:31 PM
James Harden's career PPG against Klay is 24.9 and it's actually gone up recently, since December of 2013 he's averaging 26.8 PPG and was only held under 20 PPG once. So frankly, no I'm not buying the idea Klay could shut Harden down because he hasn't.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hardeja01&p2=thompkl01

I'm not saying Klay couldn't win, because he's very talented. He didn't miss for an entire quarter. He could beat Harden. What I am saying is Harden would beat Klay more often than Klay would beat Harden. If you played 10 games, or a 100, Harden is winning more than Klay.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2015, 07:38 PM
Easy now. He's not some uncontainable force of nature. People have shut him down regularly in the NBA, to the point where he only gets points up by getting free throws (none of those one on one). And at what point did he "beat" his man during the finals? Unless you mean beating you in a choking contest?

Harden is an elite player but people need to quit overrating him. Nobody is unstoppable. No one.

his strong suit in basketball is made for 1-1. Klay's is not. If you give enough space to a 6'5", 220 lbs guy who can handle with either hand and get to the rim, nobody can stop that 1-1. Nobody.

Again, many of you are missing the point, that this is 1-1. Ball dominant scorers who get to the rack while 5 defenders are on the floor are really going to have a hard time beating 1? Cmon

ThuglifeJ
02-16-2015, 08:36 PM
A guy like Harden will eventually beat you, there is no stopping it.

Easy now. He's not some uncontainable force of nature. People have shut him down regularly in the NBA, to the point where he only gets points up by getting free throws (none of those one on one). And at what point did he "beat" his man during the finals? Unless you mean beating you in a choking contest?

Harden is an elite player but people need to quit overrating him. Nobody is unstoppable. No one.

I would argue that prime Jordan, KAJ, Olajuwan, McGrady, Kobe, Vince, Iverson, Dirk, and Pierce are impossible to defend 1v1. If you manage to stop their creation they all (aside Iverson) have lethal post moves. You simply can't guard a post fade from MJ or a sky hook from KAJ. Not easy shots though, but you're banking on them missing more than your D.


Harden obviously is not in that convo, but I just wanted to point out I disagree with the no one being 'unstoppable'.

mightybosstone
02-16-2015, 08:50 PM
I would argue that prime Jordan, KAJ, Olajuwan, McGrady, Kobe, Vince, Iverson, Dirk, and Pierce are impossible to defend 1v1. If you manage to stop their creation they all (aside Iverson) have lethal post moves. You simply can't guard a post fade from MJ or a sky hook from KAJ. Not easy shots though, but you're banking on them missing more than your D.


Harden obviously is not in that convo, but I just wanted to point out I disagree with the no one being 'unstoppable'.

I'll make you a bet right now that should entice you: in 15 years, James Harden's career will be held in higher regards than Vince Carter's. In the extremely unlikely event that you and I are still posting on this site in 15 years when we're still in our forties, the loser of this bet has to send the other one a check for 20 bucks. You in?

CluTcH_c1tY
02-16-2015, 08:54 PM
I would argue that prime Jordan, KAJ, Olajuwan, McGrady, Kobe, Vince, Iverson, Dirk, and Pierce are impossible to defend 1v1. If you manage to stop their creation they all (aside Iverson) have lethal post moves. You simply can't guard a post fade from MJ or a sky hook from KAJ. Not easy shots though, but you're banking on them missing more than your D.


Harden obviously is not in that convo, but I just wanted to point out I disagree with the no one being 'unstoppable'.
Bro you're known as a rockets hater so honestly your point is irrelevant because we all know you don't like anything Houston. Pierce? Vince? Lmfao

Hawkeye15
02-16-2015, 08:55 PM
I would argue that prime Jordan, KAJ, Olajuwan, McGrady, Kobe, Vince, Iverson, Dirk, and Pierce are impossible to defend 1v1. If you manage to stop their creation they all (aside Iverson) have lethal post moves. You simply can't guard a post fade from MJ or a sky hook from KAJ. Not easy shots though, but you're banking on them missing more than your D.


Harden obviously is not in that convo, but I just wanted to point out I disagree with the no one being 'unstoppable'.

you are missing the point, as are many here. Why the **** would they need to do this? Ever? In 1-1, you live at the rim. The better the competitor is at attacking off the dribble, or in the low post, the better 1-1 player he is. It has nothing to do with getting baskets, against multiple defenders. Harden would beat up Klay. Klay doesn't have the handles to win this matchup, and his defense is pretty good, but with all that space, that won't matter.

Hawkeye15
02-16-2015, 08:57 PM
Bro you're known as a rockets hater so honestly your point is irrelevant because we all know you don't like anything Houston. Pierce? Vince? Lmfao

I think Pierce would have been an amazing 1-1 player when he was younger, so savvy, can handle, score at the rim, and has a lot of good footwork. Vince, probably really awesome too.

Being a good 1-1 player has nothing to do with being a good NBA player.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-17-2015, 12:24 AM
I think Pierce would have been an amazing 1-1 player when he was younger, so savvy, can handle, score at the rim, and has a lot of good footwork. Vince, probably really awesome too.

Being a good 1-1 player has nothing to do with being a good NBA player.
Yeah but those two guys have never had a season like Harden is having this year. I like both those players too as they were one of the reasons I really liked the 00 era.

lakerfan85
02-17-2015, 12:57 AM
Honestly who really cares who would win? It is funny reading this thread though and seeing people bash the OP and fans of other teams because their opinions differ than yours..

lakerfan85
02-17-2015, 01:01 AM
And with that phrase, you took your point too far and look like a complete fool. You're better than this, Goose. That's pathetic and wildly inaccurate.

Edit: As per your request, here's a solid video of Harden's defensive efforts this season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oP4eXW9y7g

If you want to see a video of James Harden scoring without flopping, just Google "James Harden highlight" and watch the dozens upon dozens of videos of him doing unbelievable things offensively. A child can do it. You might even be able to do it, Goose, if you try hard enough. ;)

Why must you call people names all the time??

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 01:37 AM
I'll make you a bet right now that should entice you: in 15 years, James Harden's career will be held in higher regards than Vince Carter's. In the extremely unlikely event that you and I are still posting on this site in 15 years when we're still in our forties, the loser of this bet has to send the other one a check for 20 bucks. You in?

If were making a 15 year bet, I'm hoping were going at least $100.

That is a pretty random bet to make. Disapproval of Harden aside, I think that's an extremely bold prediction to make seeing as how VC is seen as somewhat a pioneer of ex-star being able to transform his game into his mid-late 30s. There reasons why Vince is one of the only ones who's been able to do so. I very much see Harden falling into the category of the other guys who didn't want to change game/role with age. I don't see much of any similarities between the two other than they both have a very deep offensive arsenal. Of the top of my head, Harden likes to draw contact (to a fault at times), VC was always trying to avoid/glide around contact (to a fault at times as well). VC was obviously an above the rim guy..Harden crafting below.

Personality wise, they are much different. Harden has that whole giant ego thing going, whether you like to admit it or not..very Tmac like to me, and I loved Tmac, so don't have a cow on that comment please..but one helps translate to later years a lot better than the other. VC was different.

Even so, I never would picture VC having this long a career. I don't picture anyone to have over 15 years actually. So your bet is pretty dumb and obviously I'd take it.

Unless that's not what you meant by the bet. Also, curious as to why you singled out Vince there when I had a list of about 11 guys?

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 01:47 AM
Bro you're known as a rockets hater so honestly your point is irrelevant because we all know you don't like anything Houston. Pierce? Vince? Lmfao

Seriously, what are you even going at. What does whatever your saying have to do with me listing that group.

This isn't a houston vs world crap you're dreaming up again. I understand most of you probably didn't watch any basketball during the large suckage stretch Houston had for a good while in the 2000s, but each one of those guys I listed had the ability to score, or at least get good score attempts up at will in their primes. Pierce, Vince definitely had skillsets you could not defend for simply for the fact they could create out of a backdown/post up. Whether them shooting a post fade is good in your eyes, that's up to you, but they could hit them at a good enough rate to consider it part of their arsenal. Were talking 1 on 1, in an isolation, with no help D on them. I would advise watching some old clips? There's a reason all those guys got doubled every game, because if it was 1 on 1, it was all based on just whether they hit the shot or not.


I understand in your eyes this and last year are the only years to ever exist in basketball but actually it's been around a while.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 01:55 AM
you are missing the point, as are many here. Why the **** would they need to do this? Ever? In 1-1, you live at the rim. The better the competitor is at attacking off the dribble, or in the low post, the better 1-1 player he is. It has nothing to do with getting baskets, against multiple defenders.

I'm referring to a single comment by TreDigs, that "no one is unstoppable". Which I just disagree with.

And for the record.. Jordan literally DOES Do his baseline postfade majority of his shots in 1v1 games (that I've seen). I feel like you're stuck in the present scene where they don't use post ups with wings much at all anymore..as if they weren't effective. Those moves were lethal and perfectly fine in a 1v1 if locked in.

I never said against multiple defenders, I was actually referring to in a isolation/1v1 situation.

You act like you can just penetrate at will just cuz it's 1 on 1. More than half the time you're going to have to get the opponent in a backdown.

Hawkeye15
02-17-2015, 01:56 AM
Yeah but those two guys have never had a season like Harden is having this year. I like both those players too as they were one of the reasons I really liked the 00 era.

I am talking purely from a 1-1 game. Pierce has the same skills, to get where he wants, whenever he wants.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 01:58 AM
Oh btw I really enjoyed that I got 'called out' for being a anti-Houston everything and that my post is irrelevant because of that..when that exact post you quoted I included Olajuwon :laugh::laugh:


Kids

Hawkeye15
02-17-2015, 02:08 AM
I'm referring to a single comment by TreDigs, that "no one is unstoppable". Which I just disagree with.

And for the record.. Jordan literally DOES Do his baseline postfade majority of his shots in 1v1 games (that I've seen). I feel like you're stuck in the present scene where they don't use post ups with wings much at all anymore..as if they weren't effective. Those moves were lethal and perfectly fine in a 1v1 if locked in.

I never said against multiple defenders, I was actually referring to in a isolation/1v1 situation.

You act like you can just penetrate at will just cuz it's 1 on 1. More than half the time you're going to have to get the opponent in a backdown.

yes, you get to the rim. In 1-1, you get to the rim, period. If you are elite at it, you win. If you aren't, better hope you are playing someone not elite.

Dribble drive breakdown, and backing them up and getting a layup is all 1-1 is. So many people are overthinking this. 1-1 is simple.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 02:27 AM
yes, you get to the rim. In 1-1, you get to the rim, period. If you are elite at it, you win. If you aren't, better hope you are playing someone not elite.

Dribble drive breakdown, and backing them up and getting a layup is all 1-1 is. So many people are overthinking this. 1-1 is simple.

Maybe you're overthinking what people are thinking?

SPURSFAN1
02-17-2015, 02:35 AM
Another **** thread. Good thing I can see the voters. Good way to know who the dumbasses are.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 03:03 AM
Another **** thread. Good thing I can see the voters. Good way to know who the dumbasses are.

Right, so glad I could find you :)

Goose17
02-17-2015, 04:12 AM
I'll make you a bet right now that should entice you: in 15 years, James Harden's career will be held in higher regards than Vince Carter's. In the extremely unlikely event that you and I are still posting on this site in 15 years when we're still in our forties, the loser of this bet has to send the other one a check for 20 bucks. You in?

This is interesting. I can definitely see this happening, especially if Harden can win MVP this year and follow it up by winning a chip or two as a top guy.

The difference will be in their twilight years. Can he adjust his game and go out with dignity like Carter has done? Accept a smaller role? Go back to the bench?

I can definitely see him being regarded as a better player than Carter when it's all said and done though.

CluTcH_c1tY
02-17-2015, 08:57 AM
Oh btw I really enjoyed that I got 'called out' for being a anti-Houston everything and that my post is irrelevant because of that..when that exact post you quoted I included Olajuwon [emoji23][emoji23]


Kids
Not hard to acknowledge Olajuwon buddy he was a top 3 if not the best center to play the game whether you liked Houston or not.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 09:52 AM
If were making a 15 year bet, I'm hoping were going at least $100.

That is a pretty random bet to make. Disapproval of Harden aside, I think that's an extremely bold prediction to make seeing as how VC is seen as somewhat a pioneer of ex-star being able to transform his game into his mid-late 30s. There reasons why Vince is one of the only ones who's been able to do so. I very much see Harden falling into the category of the other guys who didn't want to change game/role with age. I don't see much of any similarities between the two other than they both have a very deep offensive arsenal. Of the top of my head, Harden likes to draw contact (to a fault at times), VC was always trying to avoid/glide around contact (to a fault at times as well). VC was obviously an above the rim guy..Harden crafting below.

Personality wise, they are much different. Harden has that whole giant ego thing going, whether you like to admit it or not..very Tmac like to me, and I loved Tmac, so don't have a cow on that comment please..but one helps translate to later years a lot better than the other. VC was different.

Even so, I never would picture VC having this long a career. I don't picture anyone to have over 15 years actually. So your bet is pretty dumb and obviously I'd take it.

Unless that's not what you meant by the bet. Also, curious as to why you singled out Vince there when I had a list of about 11 guys?

Who cares if Harden doesn't "change his game with age?" Look, it's been nice to see Carter become a decent role player in his mid-late 30s and everything, but I don't think it adds a ton to his overall legacy. It's not like he's winning championships or making All Star games at this point in his career. All Harden has to do is have a stronger peak and prime than Carter, acquire more accolades and make a few more playoff runs as a No. 1 or No. 2 guy.

Frankly, I don't even think it will be that hard. Here are a few facts for you...
1. The year Harden is having is absolutely superior to any regular season Vince Carter has ever had. In terms of overall productivity and efficiency, Carter's 2000-01 season was really strong, but it doesn't come close to Harden's.
2. Carter only made two All NBA teams in his entire career and zero All NBA first teams. Meanwhile, Harden already has two All NBA teams under his belt, including one All NBA first team, and he's a lock to add another first team selection to his belt this year as long as he stays healthy.
3. Carter never finished better than 10th in MVP voting. Harden has already got an 8th place finish and a 5th place finish and is probably a lock to get a top 3 finish this season.
4. Carter only topped 25 points per game three times in his entire career. Harden is about to do that three straight times by the time he's 25. Carter also only topped 5.0 assists per game once in his career, a feat Harden is about to pull of three straight times.
5. Even with Harden playing mediocre basketball in the postseason the last two years, his playoff numbers are still better than Carter's...
6...and Carter may have a slight edge in a few regular season stats right now, but give it another 4-5 years and Harden will be in another stratosphere.
7. In terms of longevity, Harden already has more than one-fourth as many rebounds, more than one-third as many points and nearly half as many assists as Carter. And Harden is only 25.
8. Carter not winning a title means that Harden doesn't even ever have to win a championship to surpass him, which makes it 10 times easier.

So, frankly, I'm feeling pretty damn good about this. I'll take your $100 and double down. Let's make it $200.

Edit: Also, I saw that you asked me a couple of other things I'll address. First off, Carter playing 17 seasons in his career is nice, but let's not pretend that his playing this late in his career matters all that much. If he was pulling a Kobe and playing 15+ years at a ridiculous level, that would be one thing. But Carter is an absolute shell of himself and has been for years. Carter's last prime year was probably 09. And honestly, Harden's got a damn good chance to play 15+ years. He's only 25 and is about to have six seasons under his belt. All he has to do is play until he's 34 to achieve that feat, and most guys in the league today are playing past that age.

And I picked Carter, because I know he's your favorite player and because I thought he was easily the weakest player on that list. If you want to dog Harden all the time, that's fine. But just know that the guy you loathe so much is on a path to completely eclipse your guy and could feasibly become one of the 5-7 greatest shooting guards in the history of the NBA. ;)

Goose17
02-17-2015, 10:37 AM
and could feasibly become one of the 5-7 greatest shooting guards in the history of the NBA. ;)

Hmm, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West, Gervin, Drexler, Maravich, McGrady, Iverson and Carter. Those are the top names he will have to surpass in most peoples eyes and I don't know if he's THAT good. If he was to win a few accolades (MVP, NBA championship) and multiple All-NBA nods along with plenty of team success and more seasons like the one he is having now... sure, I think he could finish in the top 10, the potential is there for him to surpass at least two of the names on that list, maybe three. I'm not sure he goes into the top 7 though, let alone the top 5.


I'm talking about what I imagine the majority of fans will feel like, personally I don't care for "all time" lists, I prefer to rank players among their era, I don't bother with all time, but... whatever.


Also I would argue that ageing gracefully does a lot for your rep and legacy. The way Carter has altered his game, accepted a new role and still remains somewhat valuable to a team makes him look way better than the guys who don't know when to call it quits, refuse to change their game, still think they're a star and end up in a crash and burn type scenario.

Chrisclover
02-17-2015, 10:42 AM
What is street ball? Is it like the longest yards version where Michael Irvin is allowed to beat up Adam Sandler and get no fouls called? Lol come on man get over it. I know you saw Harden isolate LeBron last night and got him with that nasty step back.
He made this thread before last night, so...

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 11:00 AM
Hmm, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West, Gervin, Drexler, Maravich, McGrady, Iverson and Carter. Those are the top names he will have to surpass in most peoples eyes and I don't know if he's THAT good. If he was to win a few accolades (MVP, NBA championship) and multiple All-NBA nods along with plenty of team success and more seasons like the one he is having now... sure, I think he could finish in the top 10, the potential is there for him to surpass at least two of the names on that list, maybe three. I'm not sure he goes into the top 7 though, let alone the top 5.
I don't think he can pass Jordan, Kobe, West or Wade, but everyone else on that list is passable. I've already shown that passing Carter is easy. Passing Maravich is even easier. We're talking about a guy who only played in 658 career regular season games and 26 career postseason games, never won a title or MVP. Harden will pass him in my eyes in like two or three more seasons of his current level of play.

McGrady will be slightly more difficult than Carter. He doesn't have nearly the longevity, but his peak was pretty spectacular. However, McGrady was never a very efficient scorer and he certainly doesn't have any postseason success Harden needs to worry about. As long as Harden plays 5-6 more seasons at a similar level of play to what he's done the last three years, he can probably pass McGrady.

And then Iverson is just crazy overrated. Sure, he's got insane scoring numbers, but there's no efficiency there. You could argue that Harden's current season dwarfs any season Iverson ever had. The problem will be how people view Iverson's scoring prowess and his MVP, which I don't think was well deserved. Iverson also made a Finals appearance as a No. 1, so that might be a tough feat for Harden to reach.

Gervin and Drexler will be tougher. However, you could argue Gervin is in a similar group as McGrady, Maravich and Carter. Sure, he put up really good scoring numbers for a long time and earned a ton of individual accolades, but he had zero postseason success and no MVPs. Although he did finish top three tree times. But he was not a good defender in the slightest and he was a terrible playmaker compared to others on this list.

Drexler might be the toughest of them all to pass. He doesn't have quite the individual accolades as others on the list, but he easily has the strongest peak and prime of anyone else I've mentioned, he went to two titles as a No. 1 and won a titles as a No. 2.

However, think about this... If Harden were to win an MVP AND win a title as a No. 1 guy while continuing to put up these types of numbers over the next 5-7 years and playing decent basketball into his early 30s, you could make a case for him climbing up to No. 4 and even surpassing Wade. Is it likely? No. But it's certainly not unheard of.


Also I would argue that ageing gracefully does a lot for your rep and legacy. The way Carter has altered his game, accepted a new role and still remains somewhat valuable to a team makes him look way better than the guys who don't know when to call it quits, refuse to change their game, still think they're a star and end up in a crash and burn type scenario.
It helps his legacy a little bit, but if I'm ranking SGs, a few decent seasons of Carter as a role player in his mid 30s isn't going to help me decide between he and other similar players. Like, compare he and McGrady. Sure, McGrady didn't have remotely the longevity that Carter had and he didn't change his game to be a decent role player later in his career. But does that change the fact that McGrady's peak was just much stronger than Carter's? No. McGrady is still ahead of Carter in my book.

Nick O
02-17-2015, 11:54 AM
Harden would be a ballin 1v1 guy.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 11:56 AM
Heavy bias on stats apparently, but I will get back to that later. And Ill definitely take the $200 bet. I don't think he'd pass Iverson, or McGrady either.

Will get back later. Try not to live to much in the moment though is my advice, you might lose a decent chunk of money here Mr cocky.

lol, please
02-17-2015, 05:14 PM
I don't think he can pass Jordan, Kobe, West or Wade, but everyone else on that list is passable. I've already shown that passing Carter is easy. Passing Maravich is even easier. We're talking about a guy who only played in 658 career regular season games and 26 career postseason games, never won a title or MVP. Harden will pass him in my eyes in like two or three more seasons of his current level of play.

McGrady will be slightly more difficult than Carter. He doesn't have nearly the longevity, but his peak was pretty spectacular. However, McGrady was never a very efficient scorer and he certainly doesn't have any postseason success Harden needs to worry about. As long as Harden plays 5-6 more seasons at a similar level of play to what he's done the last three years, he can probably pass McGrady.

And then Iverson is just crazy overrated. Sure, he's got insane scoring numbers, but there's no efficiency there. You could argue that Harden's current season dwarfs any season Iverson ever had. The problem will be how people view Iverson's scoring prowess and his MVP, which I don't think was well deserved. Iverson also made a Finals appearance as a No. 1, so that might be a tough feat for Harden to reach.

Gervin and Drexler will be tougher. However, you could argue Gervin is in a similar group as McGrady, Maravich and Carter. Sure, he put up really good scoring numbers for a long time and earned a ton of individual accolades, but he had zero postseason success and no MVPs. Although he did finish top three tree times. But he was not a good defender in the slightest and he was a terrible playmaker compared to others on this list.

Drexler might be the toughest of them all to pass. He doesn't have quite the individual accolades as others on the list, but he easily has the strongest peak and prime of anyone else I've mentioned, he went to two titles as a No. 1 and won a titles as a No. 2.

However, think about this... If Harden were to win an MVP AND win a title as a No. 1 guy while continuing to put up these types of numbers over the next 5-7 years and playing decent basketball into his early 30s, you could make a case for him climbing up to No. 4 and even surpassing Wade. Is it likely? No. But it's certainly not unheard of.


It helps his legacy a little bit, but if I'm ranking SGs, a few decent seasons of Carter as a role player in his mid 30s isn't going to help me decide between he and other similar players. Like, compare he and McGrady. Sure, McGrady didn't have remotely the longevity that Carter had and he didn't change his game to be a decent role player later in his career. But does that change the fact that McGrady's peak was just much stronger than Carter's? No. McGrady is still ahead of Carter in my book.
I guess we will have to disagree on the fact that a player is better over all than another because of a few better seasons at their peak. I think context is important and depending on the circumstances a consistent, efficient player with longevity can be ranked all time higher than someone with a shorter career and only a couple elite production seasons at best.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 05:36 PM
Heavy bias on stats apparently, but I will get back to that later. And Ill definitely take the $200 bet. I don't think he'd pass Iverson, or McGrady either.

Will get back later. Try not to live to much in the moment though is my advice, you might lose a decent chunk of money here Mr cocky.
And my advice to you, sir, would be not to live in the past. Too often fans look back on players with greater respect and fondness than those players deserved. Carter was a great basketball player, but he was never as good at any point in his career as Harden is right now, and he never came remotely close to winning an MVP.


I guess we will have to disagree on the fact that a player is better over all than another because of a few better seasons at their peak. I think context is important and depending on the circumstances a consistent, efficient player with longevity can be ranked all time higher than someone with a shorter career and only a couple elite production seasons at best.
I don't really understand what point you're trying to make here. Are you trying to tell me that you think Carter is better than McGrady because he played for longer?

Because I'm not just using peak comparisons to suggest that McGrady is better than Carter. I'm using peak, prime and just general accolades. Consider that McGrady and Carter both came into the league at roughly the same time and were very close in age and played the same position. Despite Carter having a much longer career, he made only two All-NBA teams and zero All-NBA 1st teams. McGrady made seven All-NBA teams, including two 1st team selections. McGrady topped 24 points, 5 rebounds and 4.5 assists seven consecutive seasons. Carter topped 24 points six times, 5 rebounds nine times and 4.5 assists four times in his entire career and only did all three together one time. McGrady topped a 23.0 PER five times and a .180 WS/48 four times, while Carter topped both numbers only twice.

Basically any barometer you use to judge players other than longevity, McGrady bests Carter. Yes, I do think his peak production gives him a pretty substantial edge, but that's hardly the only thing I'm using to judge the two players.

lol, please
02-17-2015, 05:38 PM
I wasn't making any point other than the one I made. I wasn't referring to any specific player, just that I don't value one single productive season as a deciding factor when comparing two players. Give me the player who shows consistency and longevity over one single dominant season or even two, if both players are similarly efficient.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 05:48 PM
I wasn't making any point other than the one I made. I wasn't referring to any specific player, just that I don't value one single productive season as a deciding factor when comparing two players. Give me the player who shows consistency and longevity over one single dominant season or even two, if both players are similarly efficient.
Okay.... :shrug:

So basically, you're saying you'd rank Robert Parrish ahead of Bill Walton?

lol, please
02-17-2015, 05:49 PM
After I just said I wasn't talking about anyone in particular you throw out a comparison. Good job. I am on my phone or I might actually be bothered to find an example, it was just a statement regarding how I rank players. :shrug:

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 05:58 PM
After I just said I wasn't talking about anyone in particular you throw out a comparison. Good job. I am on my phone or I might actually be bothered to find an example, it was just a statement regarding how I rank players. :shrug:

:facepalm: Because, dude, the comparison I just gave is a pretty general one of players on far, extreme ends of the spectrum. On one hand, you have Walton, who essentially peaked during two years in which he won DPOY, MVP and a championship, but then dealt with injuries and never regained that dominance ever again. On the other hand, you have Parish, who played more games than any other player in NBA history and won titles as a No. 2 or No. 3 guy on on three Celtics teams, but only made two All-NBA teams in 20 years of basketball.

It's a very common comparison people use to compare peak vs. longevity arguments. It's not exactly rocket science...

lol, please
02-17-2015, 06:04 PM
Except my statement didn't involve players on far ends of the spectrum, I was referring to comparing players of similar value with the only differences being longevity, I don't take the most productive season of two careers and have it supercede other attributes to rank said person higher. I don't know why you keep prodding me about it, I didn't meant to detract from your original argument here, it was just a side comment. Injuries makes for a completely different story anyway. In boxing Salvador Sanchez is ranked high all time despite his career being cut short by untimely death.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 06:09 PM
Except my statement didn't involve players on far ends of the spectrum, I was referring to comparing players of similar value with the only differences being longevity, I don't take the most productive season of two careers and have it supercede other attributes to rank said person higher. I don't know why you keep prodding me about it, I didn't meant to detract from your original argument here, it was just a side comment. Injuries makes for a completely different story anyway. In boxing Salvador Sanchez is ranked high all time despite his career being cut short by untimely death.

Neither do I, and I never said I did. So I'm not sure why that would be such an important point for you to make.

lol, please
02-17-2015, 06:10 PM
It wasn't of utmost importance. :shrug: just a comment.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 08:52 PM
Man u can cling to this season all you want. I'm on my phone so I can't elaborate much but. 1. This season isn't even over yet! Quit calling him MVP!

2. You are comparing two different eras of players and using things like all NBA as a stance. Newsflash, Harden is playing in a age with about 1 entire other SG that is considered a great player. That CLEARLY makes a difference that you are trying to hide when its such an obvious thing. Making all NBA SG in 2015 is a complete different ballgame than 2001 I shouldn't have to even point this out if you'd stop narrowing your argument so obviously in your favor.

You can't be serious if you think an All NBA 2nd team is something to shake off when you're comparing Kobe, Tmac, Iverson, Allen, Carter in the race. Where do you think Harden fits into that? Surely you don't believe hes actually winning all NBA 1st every or any year with them. Seriously he'd be overwhelmed in those matchups. This isn't just klay thimpson he's going up against. This is more athletic, more conditioned, more explosive star SGs.

mightybosstone
02-17-2015, 09:36 PM
Man u can cling to this season all you want. I'm on my phone so I can't elaborate much but. 1. This season isn't even over yet! Quit calling him MVP!
I never called him MVP. But right now he is a top 2 MVP candidate, something Carter never came remotely close to.


2. You are comparing two different eras of players and using things like all NBA as a stance. Newsflash, Harden is playing in a age with about 1 entire other SG that is considered a great player. That CLEARLY makes a difference that you are trying to hide when its such an obvious thing. Making all NBA SG in 2015 is a complete different ballgame than 2001 I shouldn't have to even point this out if you'd stop narrowing your argument so obviously in your favor.
Yeah, but you're missing a very obvious argument that works in Harden's favor: All-NBA selections don't differentiate between PG or SG. This is arguably the most talented era for point guards in the history of the NBA, so Harden getting All-NBA 1st team is still extremely impressive. Think about it... Last year he made the 1st team over Westbrook and Curry, and this year he'll probably get in over Paul, Westbrook, Lillard, Wall, etc.


You can't be serious if you think an All NBA 2nd team is something to shake off when you're comparing Kobe, Tmac, Iverson, Allen, Carter in the race. Where do you think Harden fits into that? Surely you don't believe hes actually winning all NBA 1st every or any year with them. Seriously he'd be overwhelmed in those matchups. This isn't just klay thimpson he's going up against. This is more athletic, more conditioned, more explosive star SGs.
I think I've already explained where I think Harden fits in among those players. Outside of Kobe, Harden's last two seasons would be right in the middle of the best seasons those guys ever had and Harden's 2014-15 season is better than any season any of those guys ever had. So do I think he could earn an All-NBA first team selection ahead of those guys if they played in the same era? It's totally hypothetical, but why not? Harden's team last season and this season probably would have similar or better records than those guy's teams and he was far, far more efficient than those guys.

Also, let's not pretend like McGrady, Carter and Iverson were good defenders in their primes. They were not. At their peaks, all three guys were below average defenders, and Harden would have given them just as much of a problem as they would have given them. Hell, I would argue that Harden is/was the hardest player of the four to guard, because he didn't just rely on speed or athleticism.

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 11:18 PM
@mbt - You're pretty fortunate my WiFi is down. Still on damn phone. Here's the deal. Until you admit your statement about no Carter season even comparing to Hardens season, I'm not going to even converse with you. Why would I? That's already showing where your big head is at. Take a gander at Carter's 2001 season and 2006 season. Go ahead and compare those numbers side to side. Then as any good sports analyst would do, go read up on it instead of just hindering everything on stats. Then go look at who did win those mvps. Vince most definitely was in consideration in 01 and then what he did in 05/06, leading a Nets team solidly out of playoffs on with a string of gigantic games (being traded there) he was unreal in that stretch. Then go look at how impactful Vince was to the league in 01, he was bringing in fans worldwide and guys like Wiggins, Durant, etc were inspired by him. Harden does about none of that, at least significantly less. To say that doesn't matter in ranking all time is wrong.


Now most importantly :) go compare Vince's playoff stats to Hardens. That's including Old azz Vince averages!

I don't recall Harden having 50 point games or hitting 8 threes in a row in the playoffs, or still hitting gamewinners when he's 37, I recall him choking.


Now I'm not saying you made this thread, but Harden has a ways to go in his career before discussing this. Vince is wrapping up his career, with HoF nod. Harden is just in his prime now. We have no idea what could happen between now and the end of his career.

It's dumb to discuss Harden compared to any of these SGs...you simply can't make a case for him if his career ended tomorrow. But it's probably not so let's wait a bit. I'm sure both sides would agree on that

lol, please
02-17-2015, 11:21 PM
Klay would disagree with that statement. He stays on harden like white on rice

ThuglifeJ
02-17-2015, 11:30 PM
I can't quote right now but you need to take a break from these forums of you honestly think Hardens current season 'clearly' better than any season than those SGs.

Tmac put together one of the greatest single seasons of all time in Orlando. With playing defense too.

Now let's also consider the fact this season still has 3 months left to it...That could help or also very possibly hurt this season and these stats you are clinging so dearly onto.

Seriously lot of season left..

Giannis94
02-18-2015, 12:32 AM
Giannis. Why is he not even an option?

xxplayerxx23
02-18-2015, 12:33 AM
Giannis. Why is he not even an option?


This

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 10:49 AM
I can't quote right now but you need to take a break from these forums of you honestly think Hardens current season 'clearly' better than any season than those SGs.

Tmac put together one of the greatest single seasons of all time in Orlando. With playing defense too.

Now let's also consider the fact this season still has 3 months left to it...That could help or also very possibly hurt this season and these stats you are clinging so dearly onto.

Seriously lot of season left..

2001 orlando 43 wins. :laugh2:

8th spot in the east. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 12:00 PM
2001 orlando 43 wins. :laugh2:

8th spot in the east. Stop embarrassing yourself.

take a gander at that roster outside Tmac..

Tony_Starks
02-18-2015, 01:35 PM
Listening to advanced stat guys talk AI is like listening to Bill O'Reilly break down hiphop......

ThuglifeJ
02-18-2015, 03:16 PM
I can't quote right now but you need to take a break from these forums of you honestly think Hardens current season 'clearly' better than any season than those SGs.

Tmac put together one of the greatest single seasons of all time in Orlando. With playing defense too.

Now let's also consider the fact this season still has 3 months left to it...That could help or also very possibly hurt this season and these stats you are clinging so dearly onto.

Seriously lot of season left..

2001 orlando 43 wins. :laugh2:

8th spot in the east. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Mike miller is your second best player. 43 wins is pretty good.

8th spot in East isn't as frowned upon as it is now.

I was referring to his individual performance.


Stop embarrassing YOURSELF.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 04:46 PM
take a gander at that roster outside Tmac..

I saw. Still not impressive.

lol, please
02-18-2015, 05:09 PM
I saw. Still not impressive.
Exactly.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 06:22 PM
Also, let's not pretend like McGrady, Carter and Iverson were good defenders in their primes.
There is no need to pretend.


They were not. At their peaks, all three guys were below average defenders, and Harden would have given them just as much of a problem as they would have given them. Hell, I would argue that Harden is/was the hardest player of the four to guard, because he didn't just rely on speed or athleticism.

Hard to rely on something you're not gifted with. Tmac at his apex was a FAR better 2-way player. Its shocking that some people still dont know this. He coasted on defense during some regular seasons in a manner very similar to Harden last year (though not quite as detrimental), the primary difference being that when the playoffs or an intriguing matchup came along, Tmac had superior length/versatility/IQ to defend at an elite level. His defensive performances have been lauded by coaches, analysts and GM's alike. When he was focused, Tmac was the best wing in the NBA, during an era where there was actual competition as a swing (not sure Harden qualifies as a true swing considering hes not a SF), an era where defenses reigned supreme, the only era in which BOTH zones and hand checking were allowed.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 06:25 PM
Exactly.

Yeah, because we've seen this type of performance from non pantheon players before... :rolleyes:

Chronz
02-18-2015, 06:26 PM
I saw. Still not impressive.
In comparison to whom?

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 07:59 PM
In comparison to whom?

Couldn't careless really. Why? Did he do anything to be impressed?

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:06 PM
Tmac had worse numbers than last years kevin love. :confused:

How about they produce wins in the playoffs to show how good they really are.
If they can that is.

lol, please
02-18-2015, 08:09 PM
Tmac had worse numbers than last years kevin love. :confused:

How about they produce wins in the playoffs to show how good they really are.
If they can that is.
Playoff production isn't important to chronz

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:13 PM
Playoff production isn't important to chronz

Playoff production and results is the biggest indicator of a players true colors.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 08:18 PM
Couldn't careless really. Why? Did he do anything to be impressed?

Only if you're the type to not appreciate a level of play unseen from the majority of league history.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 08:19 PM
Playoff production and results is the biggest indicator of a players true colors.

As good of a regular season player T-Mac was, he was an even greater playoff performer. So Im not seeing your argument.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 08:21 PM
Tmac had worse numbers than last years kevin love. :confused:
Said no statistician ever.


How about they produce wins in the playoffs to show how good they really are.
If they can that is.

LOL. This is a sport where you can be the best player in the league and miss the playoffs entirely, yet you expect me to buy this hallow argument? Try harder if you want to debate rationally .

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:23 PM
As good of a regular season player T-Mac was, he was an even greater playoff performer. So Im not seeing your argument.

Inefficient chucking. High raw numbers. Can't get passed the first round unless with the spurs or injured. Right?

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:27 PM
Please stop already. Embarrassing yourself too.
Tmac, regular season warrior. Maybe the stats do paint the right picture.
Maybe you just ignoring the **** that's in your face.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:31 PM
I saw. Still not impressive.

name me a player not named LeBron James that could have led that team to 43 wins?

Any other name is wrong. The only other name I can even imagine during that year, is Duncan or Shaq, and they are both top 10 players ever.

McGrady, if he had stayed healthy, would be a top 10-15 player of all time most likely. That year being referred to, he was insane. You don't need to be impressed, you seem to look at the team standings and judge players off of that alone.

lol, please
02-18-2015, 08:32 PM
Guess we can't criticize a player for not reaching the playoffs now. Nevermind contributing to wins as a way to assess a player. The wins don't actually matter of course.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:33 PM
name me a player not named LeBron James that could have led that team to 43 wins?

Any other name is wrong. The only other name I can even imagine during that year, is Duncan or Shaq, and they are both top 10 players ever.

McGrady, if he had stayed healthy, would be a top 10-15 player of all time most likely. That year being referred to, he was insane. You don't need to be impressed, you seem to look at the team standings and judge players off of that alone.

Durant and this years harden get 50 plus wins easy. Second round team for sure.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:33 PM
Please stop already. Embarrassing yourself too.
Tmac, regular season warrior. Maybe the stats do paint the right picture.
Maybe you just ignoring the **** that's in your face.

do you consider Barkley a stud come playoff time?

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:34 PM
Durant and this years harden get 50 plus wins easy. Second round team for sure.

no, they don't. Durant, possibly, Harden, gtfo

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:35 PM
do you consider Barkley a stud come playoff time?

I don't know. Not my time. I could look at his stats and playoff numbers if you want and I could get at you if you want.

lol, please
02-18-2015, 08:36 PM
no, they don't. Durant, possibly, Harden, gtfo
Well said.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:36 PM
no, they don't. Durant, possibly, Harden, gtfo

Look at hardens TS%. Godly especially for a first option. Easy.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:42 PM
Guess we can't criticize a player for not reaching the playoffs now. Nevermind contributing to wins as a way to assess a player. The wins don't actually matter of course.

you can criticize whatever you like, just understand why, and the context behind it.

Wins do matter, but they are a team accomplishment. Excuse McGrady for not being quite on the LeBron level, who is one of the only players I have ever seen take a high lottery team to a playoff run.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:43 PM
Look at hardens TS%. Godly especially for a first option. Easy.

How has your boy Harden been doing with that TS% come playoff time?

And no, he isn't anywhere near the defender or facilitator Tmac was.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:44 PM
I don't know. Not my time. I could look at his stats and playoff numbers if you want and I could get at you if you want.

get at me?

Then look away, and give me your perception. Always interested in reading it for entertainment.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:48 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

please, someone look at this roster, and tell me how much more could McGrady have even done to get this team above .500?

His next best teammate, missed 53 games (Hill). Mike Miler, missed 33. Pat ****ing Garrity was 2nd on the team in total win shares.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:50 PM
How has your boy Harden been doing with that TS% come playoff time?

And no, he isn't anywhere near the defender or facilitator Tmac was.

Not too great but he isn't a chuker during the regular season. :laugh2:

Whatever it is though, harden produces wins in a strong west and not a watered down east.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:52 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

please, someone look at this roster, and tell me how much more could McGrady have even done to get this team above .500?

His next best teammate, missed 53 games (Hill). Mike Miler, missed 33. Pat ****ing Garrity was 2nd on the team in total win shares.

Harden and durant get 50 of that team. Efficient first options give you those extra wins.

Hawkeye15
02-18-2015, 08:55 PM
Harden and durant get 50 of that team. Efficient first options give you those extra wins.

please illustrate for me, how they do that. What are their 2nd options? Currently I mean? It's not as if they blow by 50 wins on their teams.

Let's list, side by side, both of those guys 2nd options, next to Pat Garrity, and Mike Miller who missed 33 games.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 08:59 PM
get at me?

Then look away, and give me your perception. Always interested in reading it for entertainment.

Regular season monster then regressed a good amount during the playoffs.
Still playing at an elite level but not true superstar level except one or 2 years in the playoffs.
1 significant run.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 09:00 PM
please illustrate for me, how they do that. What are their 2nd options? Currently I mean? It's not as if they blow by 50 wins on their teams.

Let's list, side by side, both of those guys 2nd options, next to Pat Garrity, and Mike Miller who missed 33 games.

Sorry I'm not going to break it down just for a point. It's not worth my effort to make you a believer.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 09:04 PM
Inefficient chucking.
Microscopic turnover rate despite immense playmaking load more than make up for it. The name of the game is efficiency, not just scoring efficiency.


High raw numbers.
This usually signifies a lack of per possession/per minute dominance, but that doesn't apply here. You can look at his rates or his raw tallies and hes equally dominant.


Can't get passed the first round unless with the spurs or injured. Right?
Point?

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 09:06 PM
Microscopic turnover rate despite immense playmaking load more than make up for it. The name of the game is efficiency, not just scoring efficiency.


This usually signifies a lack of per possession/per minute dominance, but that doesn't apply here. You can look at his rates or his raw tallies and hes equally dominant.


Point?

Have fun guys. Enjoy hardens MVP season. I'm taking a shower.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 09:07 PM
Please stop already. Embarrassing yourself too.
Tmac, regular season warrior. Maybe the stats do paint the right picture.


Sorry, when your post are so easily refuted, no amount of begging will make me go away. The best way to get me to shut up, is to actually debunk my claims.

Again, however great you think Tmac was during the regular season, he raised his game come playoffs, so thats not really as insulting as you wish it were.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 09:09 PM
Have fun guys. Enjoy hardens MVP season. I'm taking a shower.

Come back whenever you're ready. This aint a phone conference, you're free to pick up where you left off any time. I am enjoying Harden's MVP caliber season, is that suppose to mean something within the scope of our debate ?

SteveNash
02-18-2015, 09:11 PM
Tracy McGrady has never had a great playoff performance, ever.

Neither has Harden.

And to answer the OP, Klay easily wins.

Chronz
02-18-2015, 09:11 PM
you can criticize whatever you like, just understand why, and the context behind it.

Wins do matter, but they are a team accomplishment. Excuse McGrady for not being quite on the LeBron level, who is one of the only players I have ever seen take a high lottery team to a playoff run.

Dont bother with the strawman arguments hawk.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 09:11 PM
Come back whenever you're ready. This aint a phone conference, you're free to pick up where you left off any time. I am enjoying Harden's MVP caliber season, is that suppose to mean something within the scope of our debate ?

I'm right here to play but you don't like advance stats or even wins for that matter. What do you want to use?

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 09:12 PM
Tell me please.

dtmagnet
02-18-2015, 09:14 PM
Why "The Rucker" whatever that is.

SPURSFAN1
02-18-2015, 09:19 PM
Guess I will take that shower then.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2015, 12:15 AM
Regular season monster then regressed a good amount during the playoffs.
Still playing at an elite level but not true superstar level except one or 2 years in the playoffs.
1 significant run.

sure bud. I am never amazed at your lack of understanding this simple game.

SPURSFAN1
02-19-2015, 12:17 AM
sure bud. I am never amazed at your lack of understanding this simple game.

Are you not entertained?

Hawkeye15
02-19-2015, 12:18 AM
Sorry I'm not going to break it down just for a point. It's not worth my effort to make you a believer.

I actually just wanted your little nubs to hurt, you have never made a point, outside the fact that you are so ridiculously biased to anything Spurs, and have no real understanding that not ever star player is gifted with what Timmy has been given for his career.

But I will give you this, you are consistent.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2015, 12:22 AM
Are you not entertained?

kung fu movies entertain me haha, your posts, not so much.

Relax, and open your mind to the fact that not every star is given chip help throughout their career.

SPURSFAN1
02-19-2015, 12:26 AM
kung fu movies entertain me haha, your posts, not so much.

Relax, and open your mind to the fact that not every star is given chip help throughout their career.

Can you tell me if love is a top 10 player anymore?

I remember we had this little debate whether he was or not. I mean he could still be in ur top 10 but that would be extreme bias.

Your posts are entertaining to me though.

Hawkeye15
02-19-2015, 12:32 AM
Can you tell me if love is a top 10 player anymore?

I remember we had this little debate whether he was or not. I mean he could still be in ur top 10 but that would be extreme bias.

Your posts are entertaining to me though.

his impact is absolutely not top 10, let alone top 20 this year.

Context...

SPURSFAN1
02-19-2015, 12:33 AM
his impact is absolutely not top 10, let alone top 20 this year.

Context...

Took guts. Respect.