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View Full Version : Is Russell Westbrook the most ball dominant player in the 3pt era?



sheesh
02-09-2015, 10:34 PM
Think about it. Look at his usage rate this year. The fact that he brings the ball up the court, shoots as much as he does, turns the ball over as much as he does, passes and dribbles as much as he does.

What other player has ever actually dominated the ball more?

1. Westbrook
2. Iverson
3. LeBron
4. Jordan
5. Kobe

Most ball dominant players I've ever seen.

FlashBolt
02-09-2015, 10:36 PM
Easily Iverson. He played upwards of 40 minutes per game and had such a high USG. Russell only plays about 32 minutes. So despite having a high USG, he does his thing and then for 16 minutes, someone else has a chance. Can't say the same for Iverson. Dude had the ball in his hands for near a full game.

sheesh
02-09-2015, 10:39 PM
Easily Iverson. He played upwards of 40 minutes per game and had such a high USG. Russell only plays about 32 minutes. So despite having a high USG, he does his thing and then for 16 minutes, someone else has a chance. Can't say the same for Iverson. Dude had the ball in his hands for near a full game.

It's between Iverson and Westbrook for me. Could easily say Iverson. But........ Iverson didn't play with Durant. Also Iverson didn't bring the ball up as much as Westbrook.

Could make a great argument for Iverson. On a per minute basis I say Westbrook. If he didn't play with Durant my God. He'd have some freaky games.

FlashBolt
02-09-2015, 10:43 PM
It's between Iverson and Westbrook for me. Could easily say Iverson. But........ Iverson didn't play with Durant. Also Iverson didn't bring the ball up as much as Westbrook.

Could make a great argument for Iverson. On a per minute basis I say Westbrook. If he didn't play with Durant my God. He'd have some freaky games.

But Westbrook produces ELITE results. Iverson's team was designed for him to jack up shot after shot while his team could play defense and didn't rely for Iverson to do much on that end. Westbrook's numbers are just insane for someone who plays 32 minutes. And I don't know about who walks the ball as much.. I'm pretty sure Iverson walked the ball up more. I don't know what the USG is with Durant in the game but you also have to account for the 13 games in which he was basically their only option.

sheesh
02-09-2015, 10:51 PM
But Westbrook produces ELITE results. Iverson's team was designed for him to jack up shot after shot while his team could play defense and didn't rely for Iverson to do much on that end. Westbrook's numbers are just insane for someone who plays 32 minutes. And I don't know about who walks the ball as much.. I'm pretty sure Iverson walked the ball up more. I don't know what the USG is with Durant in the game but you also have to account for the 13 games in which he was basically their only option.

Iverson was not an all time great player, but the offensive efficiency of the 76ers did go up with him on the floor. He was a flawed player, but was effective (not a detriment if you prefer).

As for who was the better player? I'd say they are comparable, but that's not the point of the thread.

Results aren't the question of the thread. Jordan had the best results, but still was one of the most ball dominant players in the 3pt era.

FlashBolt
02-09-2015, 10:54 PM
Iverson was not an all time great player, but the offensive efficiency of the 76ers did go up with him on the floor. He was a flawed player, but was effective (not a detriment if you prefer).

As for who was the better player? I'd say they are comparable, but that's not the point of the thread.

Results aren't the question of the thread. Jordan had the best results, but still was one of the most ball dominant players in the 3pt era.

It's still Iverson. Played the most amount of minutes and has the highest USG% out of all of them.

sheesh
02-09-2015, 10:57 PM
It's still Iverson. Played the most amount of minutes and has the highest USG% out of all of them.

Jordan actually has the highest USG% of anyone in NBA history.

FlashBolt
02-09-2015, 11:03 PM
Jordan actually has the highest USG% of anyone in NBA history.

Well yeah.. because you're averaging Iverson's USG when his career was clearly over. During their primes, Iverson's USG is higher.

andy2518
02-09-2015, 11:11 PM
Yup, now let's trash Westbrook.

PowerHouse
02-09-2015, 11:40 PM
^I think more people will trash Iverson on a thread like this.

Tony_Starks
02-10-2015, 12:05 AM
Just so I'm up on the current trends, being 'ball dominant" is viewed as a bad thing?

sheesh
02-10-2015, 12:08 AM
Just so I'm up on the current trends, being 'ball dominant" is viewed as a bad thing?

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

FlashBolt
02-10-2015, 12:23 AM
Just so I'm up on the current trends, being 'ball dominant" is viewed as a bad thing?

How would you like it if your ball dominant player sucked *** but had the highest USG?

Tony_Starks
02-10-2015, 12:31 AM
Just so I'm up on the current trends, being 'ball dominant" is viewed as a bad thing?

How would you like it if your ball dominant player sucked *** but had the highest USG?

I don't understand how that relates to someone like Westbrook who is one of the best players in the league....

sheesh
02-10-2015, 01:00 AM
I don't understand how that relates to someone like Westbrook who is one of the best players in the league....

He's a tricked out Kevin Love. Good stats, but it doesn't translate to winning. Over the past 3 years the Thunder are 3.1 points per game better without Westbrook on the court. Without Durant on the court the team is 15.3 points per game worse.

I'd actually say Iverson>Westbrook. I know that wasn't the point of the thread, but somebody brought it up.

mngopher35
02-10-2015, 01:29 AM
Iverson was put in a situation where it was basically up to him to create for the offense in Philly, everyone else was more defensive minded. Westbrook is in a situation where their best player isn't exceptional in the create for others department and the rest of the players rely on others to create outside of backup guards. So Westbrook is both a high volume scorer and the main play maker on that team (at times even for Durant). The other three on your list are all time greats who you want with the ball.

I think at times Westbrook can go a bit overboard when he should defer more to Durant but if you take the ball out of his hands and leave it solely up to Durant I think you are hurting the team (balance being Westbrook deferring a little more but still being main facilitator). I don't see a major issue with the high usage for Iverson or Westbrook really considering their situations. Remember that he has spent part of the year without Durant so his career high this season is partially due to that.

dhopisthename
02-10-2015, 01:33 AM
career usg%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_career.html

dhopisthename
02-10-2015, 01:34 AM
here is season. btw westbrook is at 37.7 right now

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_season.html

sheesh
02-10-2015, 01:36 AM
Iverson was put in a situation where it was basically up to him to create for the offense in Philly, everyone else was more defensive minded. Westbrook is in a situation where their best player isn't exceptional in the create for others department and the rest of the players rely on others to create outside of backup guards. So Westbrook is both a high volume scorer and the main play maker on that team (at times even for Durant). The other three on your list are all time greats who you want with the ball.

I think at times Westbrook can go a bit overboard when he should defer more to Durant but if you take the ball out of his hands and leave it solely up to Durant I think you are hurting the team (balance being Westbrook deferring a little more but still being main facilitator). I don't see a major issue with the high usage for Iverson or Westbrook really considering their situations. Remember that he has spent part of the year without Durant so his career high this season is partially due to that.

Which kind of supports my point. He's the most ball dominant player in modern NBA history.

Iverson's usage is easier to defend because he did let Snow orchestrate some offense. And Iverson's presence on the court made the 76ers a more efficient offense. Not to mention no Durant.

Westbrook's absence on the court actually helps the Thunder team. The analytics support this. You can say the hell with stats if you want. Some people really don't care about them.

mngopher35
02-10-2015, 01:47 AM
Which kind of supports my point. He's the most ball dominant player in modern NBA history.

Iverson's usage is easier to defend because he did let Snow orchestrate some offense. And Iverson's presence on the court made the 76ers a more efficient offense. Not to mention no Durant.

Westbrook's absence on the court actually helps the Thunder team. The analytics support this. You can say the hell with stats if you want. Some people really don't care about them.

I'm not so sure about that. Westbrook without Durant this season might be more ball dominant but in general I don't think he has been. Iverson also did everything for those 76ers but didn't have a Durant to give the ball to (who gets it more than snow). Iverson averaged a higher usage in Philly than Westbrook for OKC but he basically needed to.

Also the analytics that I see have the Thunder at a 110 ORTG with Westbrook on the court and a 100 RTG with him off the court. I think that is a sign that they perform better offensively with him running things.

FOXHOUND
02-10-2015, 01:57 AM
USG% doesn't really tell ball dominance, though. I mean, all it means is that player ended the teams possession with a FGA, AST or TO. Technically, a player can not touch the ball the entire possession but then get set up for a jumper and his USG% for that possession is 100%. Likewise, a player can handle the ball for 18 seconds, pass it off, and then that player finishes the possession with no assist, leaving that first player with a USG% of 0%.

In today's world, we have SportVU, which tracks time of possession. Westbrook is high on the list, but he doesn't lead the NBA.

John Wall - 8.3 minutes per game
Kemba Walker - 8.0 MPG
Damian Lillard - 7.7 MPG
Ty Lawson - 7.7 MPG
Michael Carter-Williams - 7.7 MPG
Chris Paul - 7.3 MPG
Russell Westbrook - 7.2 MPG

To me, USG% tells more about how reliant a team is on said player more than that player being a "ball hog". While I get why it's been used that way, there's more data available today.

dhopisthename
02-10-2015, 08:52 AM
USG% doesn't really tell ball dominance, though. I mean, all it means is that player ended the teams possession with a FGA, AST or TO. Technically, a player can not touch the ball the entire possession but then get set up for a jumper and his USG% for that possession is 100%. Likewise, a player can handle the ball for 18 seconds, pass it off, and then that player finishes the possession with no assist, leaving that first player with a USG% of 0%.

In today's world, we have SportVU, which tracks time of possession. Westbrook is high on the list, but he doesn't lead the NBA.

John Wall - 8.3 minutes per game
Kemba Walker - 8.0 MPG
Damian Lillard - 7.7 MPG
Ty Lawson - 7.7 MPG
Michael Carter-Williams - 7.7 MPG
Chris Paul - 7.3 MPG
Russell Westbrook - 7.2 MPG

To me, USG% tells more about how reliant a team is on said player more than that player being a "ball hog". While I get why it's been used that way, there's more data available today.

does this factor out dribbling up the basketball and initiating the offense? I mean all of those guys are pg's so of course they handle the ball the most. if you want assists hollingers usg% includes assists.

sheesh
02-10-2015, 11:26 AM
I'm not so sure about that. Westbrook without Durant this season might be more ball dominant but in general I don't think he has been. Iverson also did everything for those 76ers but didn't have a Durant to give the ball to (who gets it more than snow). Iverson averaged a higher usage in Philly than Westbrook for OKC but he basically needed to.

Also the analytics that I see have the Thunder at a 110 ORTG with Westbrook on the court and a 100 RTG with him off the court. I think that is a sign that they perform better offensively with him running things.

I mean to say over the past 3 years the Thunder are most efficient with Westbrook off the court.

FOXHOUND
02-10-2015, 11:54 AM
does this factor out dribbling up the basketball and initiating the offense? I mean all of those guys are pg's so of course they handle the ball the most. if you want assists hollingers usg% includes assists.

Yeah, it's just straight time of possession so PG's do dominate the list. But they do in general, which makes sense since PG's are the most ball dominant position. They also have data for touches, half court touches, passes per game, etc.

You can check them out on NBA.com > stats > player/team tracking. They also have insane splits on individual players profiles. Stuff like Spot up, after 1 dribble, 2 dribble, etc, how well players shoot when player X passes to them and vice versa and more. Really interesting stuff.

Brock17
02-10-2015, 12:18 PM
All elite HOF players. If Iverson had Westbrook size he'd won a ring. I have no problem with a fricking PG dominating the ball. Doesn't PG dominate the ball anyway?

sheesh
02-10-2015, 12:26 PM
All elite HOF players. If Iverson had Westbrook size he'd won a ring. I have no problem with a fricking PG dominating the ball. Doesn't PG dominate the ball anyway?

Dominating the ball also means shooting.

Tony_Starks
02-10-2015, 01:13 PM
If you have game I could care less about a label of "ball dominant" ..... in fact I want you with the ball the majority of the time because that gives me the best chance of winning.

Now if you're a Jimmer Fredette or Jeremy Lin trying to dominate the ball then you get a special invitation to sit next to the assistant coach, but when you look at that list its no coincidence that those 5 guys either went to the Finals or won multiple rings. You can't dispute the proof....

mngopher35
02-10-2015, 02:21 PM
I mean to say over the past 3 years the Thunder are most efficient with Westbrook off the court.

Each of the previous two years the thunder have had a 113 ortg with him on the court and a 108 rating with him off. Add that to the numbers this year and I really don't see it. Thunder have been a more efficient offense with Westbrook playing than without.

sheesh
02-10-2015, 02:49 PM
Each of the previous two years the thunder have had a 113 ortg with him on the court and a 108 rating with him off. Add that to the numbers this year and I really don't see it. Thunder have been a more efficient offense with Westbrook playing than without.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/97664/westbrooks-chance-to-shine-for-thunder

Read the paragraph that addresses this exact question. I'm probably just mis-reading or misinterpreting the data.

mngopher35
02-10-2015, 03:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/97664/westbrooks-chance-to-shine-for-thunder

Read the paragraph that addresses this exact question. I'm probably just mis-reading or misinterpreting the data.

It looks like that is comparing Westbrook to Durant. So when Durant is off the court but westy plays they are worse than when Westbrook is off the court but Durant plays. Very small sample size overall, Durant is the better player anyways, and they have Reggie Jackson for when westy sits.

Bball reference will show you how each team performs with or without a player on the court. When Westbrook plays their offense is definitely better than when he doesn't.

Minimal
02-10-2015, 04:45 PM
He's a tricked out Kevin Love. Good stats, but it doesn't translate to winning. Over the past 3 years the Thunder are 3.1 points per game better without Westbrook on the court. Without Durant on the court the team is 15.3 points per game worse.

I'd actually say Iverson>Westbrook. I know that wasn't the point of the thread, but somebody brought it up.
Without Westbrook Thunder would be losing in 1st round each and every year, don't spit ********.

IndyRealist
02-10-2015, 10:17 PM
Well yeah.. because you're averaging Iverson's USG when his career was clearly over. During their primes, Iverson's USG is higher.

Not true. Single season highs in usage go to Kobe, Jordan, then Iverson. Career goes Jordan, Wade, Kobe, Iverson. And Jordan's career includes his days in Washington.

IndyRealist
02-10-2015, 10:22 PM
does this factor out dribbling up the basketball and initiating the offense? I mean all of those guys are pg's so of course they handle the ball the most. if you want assists hollingers usg% includes assists.

That's not what he was saying. What he said was that a guy could pound the basketball for 20 seconds, pass the ball, the next guy takes two dribbles and shoots, so guy #1 is at 0% usage and guy #2 is 100% usage despite not really "dominating" the ball for any length of time.

Daze9900
02-10-2015, 10:39 PM
I never understand the point of these threads. A.I career 6.2 assists per game and averaged over 7 assists a game in 7 or more seasons, Russell Westbrook ballin out of his mind with a 26 & 8 season at the midpoint. AI got some scoring titles cuz he was talented enough and really didn't have much continuity as far as steady teammates through his tenure and still carried one of the weakest teams to the finals and had a 1-0 lead stepping over tyronne lue. Russell Westbrook is so explosive. What other point guard would you take to fit in with the thunder? KD don't want it like that. On that list is great all time players just leave it alone it is what it is.