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nyballa1991
02-08-2015, 06:40 PM
in total turnovers in a career. How come LBJ is praised as an excellent distributor but people don't point out that his ast/to is nothing to write home about

apocalypse15
02-08-2015, 06:51 PM
I had no idea. Catchy title though.

JAZZNC
02-08-2015, 06:52 PM
Seriously?

Hate hate hate hate hate!

Yanks All Day
02-08-2015, 06:54 PM
Ugh.

Htownballa1622
02-08-2015, 06:58 PM
You realize he has passed Jordan in assists too?

He handles the ball as a playmaker more i'd say than Jordan did.

He sometimes forces things but he's still got assist to turnover ratio of 2/1

Jordans is 1.9/1

FlashBolt
02-08-2015, 07:00 PM
You can also argue that since offense is much more complex, the passes are going to be much more difficult to make. Anyhow, this is a clear baiting thread. Even if there is some truth to it, what does this even prove?

justinnum1
02-08-2015, 07:07 PM
smh

slaker619
02-08-2015, 07:14 PM
Damn I though he was better at passing

JasonJohnHorn
02-08-2015, 08:21 PM
I made a note of this the other day. I said Jordan was a better distributor... he averaged a little over 1 assist less per36 on his career, but he averaged more shots and had far less turnover (about 1 less per36 on his career).

I think people see that LBJ's assist-per-game is higher and say: he's a better playmaker. Not enough people look at turnovers. Stephen Curry's mother does though ;-)

Both are great playmakers, and they will have more turnovers than traditional point guards since they also have to create offense in iso plays, which leads to turnovers, but yeah....


Jordan was a better passer than LBJ, but both are great.

nastynice
02-08-2015, 08:28 PM
oh c'mon man, lebron IS a playmaker. I could give a damn what number says what, if you watch him play, he can run an offense and distribute the ball. The problem is when his teammates are players who need the ball in their hands to work the defense, its not as efficient compare to if his teammates are spot up, or catch and shoot, or slashers.

Lebron has a high basketball iq

Phantom Dreamer
02-08-2015, 09:48 PM
Thank you very much.

DemarDerozan
02-08-2015, 10:06 PM
Nice catch.

Minimal
02-08-2015, 10:45 PM
And? He surpassed Jordan in total assists in a career when he was 29. Ofcourse he is gonna have more turnovers, because he is a playmaker, Jordan wasn't really, that means he attempts much more risky passes and he still has a better turnover ratio than Jordan anyway.
Magic TO per game was 3.9 and he is considered the best playmaker in NBA history.

SanAntonioSpurs23
02-08-2015, 11:04 PM
He Also surpassed Jordan in finals losses as well

Jamiecballer
02-08-2015, 11:26 PM
Lol lol awesome troll. Didn't see this one coming.

Jeffy25
02-09-2015, 01:05 AM
in total turnovers in a career. How come LBJ is praised as an excellent distributor but people don't point out that his ast/to is nothing to write home about

You do realize he has more assists than Jordan too, right?

Jeffy25
02-09-2015, 01:08 AM
Jordan - 1.93 Assist/Turnover
LeBron - 2.06 Assist/Turnover

But hey, if you gotta bait.....?

tredigs
02-09-2015, 01:40 AM
Not a fan of this thread, but there's much more that goes into turnover rate than simply how many assists you have. Sometimes that strangely goes overlooked here.

Tony_Starks
02-09-2015, 01:51 AM
Comparing two players with two completely different playing styles.....cool.

TheIlladelph16
02-09-2015, 02:01 AM
Thread title really got me for a second. I figured I was walking into a drunk rant about Lebron surpassing Jordan's legacy... Instead I got an equally stupid argument from the anti-Lebron side of the fence. Bravo to you sir.

Tony_Starks
02-09-2015, 02:09 AM
Thread title really got me for a second. I figured I was walking into a drunk rant about Lebron surpassing Jordan's legacy... Instead I got an equally stupid argument from the anti-Lebron side of the fence. Bravo to you sir.

You're about two years too early for the first part. Just wait for it.....

nyballa1991
02-09-2015, 02:25 AM
I'm not baiting its a serious question. Never said MJ was a better passer just think lbj is a bit overrated in that department.

Jeffy25
02-09-2015, 02:44 AM
I'm not baiting its a serious question. Never said MJ was a better passer just think lbj is a bit overrated in that department.

How exactly is he a. It over rated?

Does he turnover career total determine that or something?

How many touches and possessions does he have? What about his turnover rate?

These are factors too, not just his raw total

tredigs
02-09-2015, 02:45 AM
I'm not baiting its a serious question. Never said MJ was a better passer just think lbj is a bit overrated in that department.

"Overrated". He's a 6'8" behemoth with PG passing ability who also scores 27 a night. He has the ball a lot, naturally that will also come with its fair share of turnovers. And it's not even that bad at all. LBJ's TO% is equal to the career TO% of Durant, and lower than Harden, Curry, Wade and old schoolers like Barkley and Bird (the only other guy his size who you can even bring up in a passing debate).

Jordan happened to have an exceptional Turnover rate that Lebron can't match. He's the best wing ever. It happens.

slashsnake
02-09-2015, 06:53 AM
in total turnovers in a career. How come LBJ is praised as an excellent distributor but people don't point out that his ast/to is nothing to write home about

lol that is as troll as troll can get.. Because as a high usage player assist:turnover ratio is crap. 3rd all time in points per game means he isn't playing the position like Stockton or Mark Jackson. He's playing more like Malone... oh but with double the assist:to ratio there. Double is pretty insane.




But here, if you want to say you aren't trolling. His assist ratio is better than 2:1... Find me the other elite scorers in history with a better assist to turnover ratio. If that's nothing to write home about for a guy who scores and dominates the ball... who's better?

And if you actually put 10 minutes into this thread and not just troll and run, and you come back with "Lebron's assist to turnover ratio is the best or 2nd best in NBA history among elite scorers/non PG's to play the game" Isn't that something to "write home about"?

IKnowHoops
02-09-2015, 07:15 PM
I made a note of this the other day. I said Jordan was a better distributor... he averaged a little over 1 assist less per36 on his career, but he averaged more shots and had far less turnover (about 1 less per36 on his career).

I think people see that LBJ's assist-per-game is higher and say: he's a better playmaker. Not enough people look at turnovers. Stephen Curry's mother does though ;-)

Both are great playmakers, and they will have more turnovers than traditional point guards since they also have to create offense in iso plays, which leads to turnovers, but yeah....


Jordan was a better passer than LBJ, but both are great.

But he passed Jordan in assists before he passed him in turnovers...which means he gets more assists than Jordan with less turnovers than Jordan. And as another poster pointed out, his assist to turnover ratio is better than Jordan's (which could be deduced by my first sentence). So that would make the bold false wouldn't it?

IKnowHoops
02-09-2015, 07:17 PM
Lol lol awesome troll. Didn't see this one coming.

Me too. All I could do was tilt my head back and laugh.

FlashBolt
02-09-2015, 07:23 PM
"Overrated". He's a 6'8" behemoth with PG passing ability who also scores 27 a night. He has the ball a lot, naturally that will also come with its fair share of turnovers. And it's not even that bad at all. LBJ's TO% is equal to the career TO% of Durant, and lower than Harden, Curry, Wade and old schoolers like Barkley and Bird (the only other guy his size who you can even bring up in a passing debate).

Jordan happened to have an exceptional Turnover rate that Lebron can't match. He's the best wing ever. It happens.

Yeah. I find it funny that people WANT to compare LeBron to Jordan but then forget that Jordan is the epitome of basketball perfection.

championships
02-09-2015, 07:24 PM
**** Lebron

sheesh
02-09-2015, 10:19 PM
A lot of the very best NBA players ever have been turnover machines. So we just give everybody a pass on turnovers.

Jordan was a machine though at ball handling and passing.

It's gets old, but yeah he's the GOAT.

JasonJohnHorn
02-10-2015, 09:13 AM
Jordan - 1.93 Assist/Turnover
LeBron - 2.06 Assist/Turnover

But hey, if you gotta bait.....?


If you look at it by possession, the number is in favour of Jordan.

LBJ takes 18.1 shots per36 on his career, with 6.3 assists per36 and 3.1 turnovers Meaning, for every 7.8 possessions that lead to an assist of a shot, he turns the ball over once.

Or, he turns the ball 1 for every 4 possession that leads to a made shot (either by himself or through an assist).


For Jordan, he had ten possession that lead to either a shot or an assist for every turnover. Or alternately 5 conversions (made shots, either made by him or through and assist) for every turnover.


To me, this is splitting hairs, but if you ask me who the better ball handler is, I'm going with Jordan.

mightybosstone
02-10-2015, 09:44 AM
And? He surpassed Jordan in total assists in a career when he was 29. Ofcourse he is gonna have more turnovers, because he is a playmaker, Jordan wasn't really, that means he attempts much more risky passes and he still has a better turnover ratio than Jordan anyway.
Magic TO per game was 3.9 and he is considered the best playmaker in NBA history.

This. When you handle the ball as much as guys like Lebron and Magic do, you're going to turn the ball over a lot. And in Lebron's case, he's going to turn the ball over a lot, because he's constantly attacking the basket. Having a high turnover rate doesn't make you a bad ballhandler. In some cases it does. But in Lebron's case, it's just a stat indicative of a player who constantly has the ball in his hands and is looking to make plays for himself or his teammates.

Also, OP needs to compare the career AST/TO ratio of other great playmaking non point guards...
Lebron: 6.3 / 3.1 = 2.03
Bird: 6.3 / 3.1 = 2.03
Wade: 6.0 / 3.4 = 1.76
Drexler: 5.6 / 2.7 = 2.07
Jordan: 5.3 / 2.7 = 1.96
Pippen: 5.2 / 2.8 = 1.86
Kobe: 4.8 / 3.0 = 1.6
McGrady: 4.4 / 2.2 = 2.0
Harden: 4.2 / 2.6 = 1.61

Lebron's numbers are eerily identical to Bird's, and the only player on that list with a better ratio was Drexler. But Lebron's AST/TO ratio is clearly no different and no worse than any other wing playmaker who scores at a high rate.

C the G
02-10-2015, 09:49 AM
Why do people still try to compare Lebron to MJ? A better discussion is Lebron vs Kobe....It doesn't matter what the post 1995-born Lebron "fanboys" think, Lebron isn't even in the same discussion as MJ. He's already lost in the finals 3 times, which is 3 times more than Jordan. If he ever had a chance to be mentioned with Jordan, he ruined it when he had to recruit a superteam in Miami and now in Cleveland, and simply doesn't have the heart or drive that Jordan had.

It's just a waste of time to compare the 2, Lebron is great, don't get me wrong, but MJ was, is, and will be the standard for the rest of time.

mightybosstone
02-10-2015, 09:56 AM
If you look at it by possession, the number is in favour of Jordan.

LBJ takes 18.1 shots per36 on his career, with 6.3 assists per36 and 3.1 turnovers Meaning, for every 7.8 possessions that lead to an assist of a shot, he turns the ball over once.

Or, he turns the ball 1 for every 4 possession that leads to a made shot (either by himself or through an assist).


For Jordan, he had ten possession that lead to either a shot or an assist for every turnover. Or alternately 5 conversions (made shots, either made by him or through and assist) for every turnover.


To me, this is splitting hairs, but if you ask me who the better ball handler is, I'm going with Jordan.

Actually, per 100 possessions, Lebron has averaged 9.3 assists and 4.5 turnovers, which average out to a 2.07 ratio. Jordan averaged 7.0 assists and 3.7 turnovers per 100 possessions, which averages out to a 1.89 ratio.

I'm not sure where you're pulling your figures from, but no matter how you judge the two guys, Lebron's AST/TO ratio was higher. And while I'm certainly taking Jordan as the better overall player, I'm taking Lebron as a ballhandler and playmaker hands down. Jordan wasn't even the best ballhandler on his own team. Pippen was a phenomenal point forward and every bit the playmaker that Jordan was.

sheesh
02-10-2015, 11:24 AM
Actually, per 100 possessions, Lebron has averaged 9.3 assists and 4.5 turnovers, which average out to a 2.07 ratio. Jordan averaged 7.0 assists and 3.7 turnovers per 100 possessions, which averages out to a 1.89 ratio.

I'm not sure where you're pulling your figures from, but no matter how you judge the two guys, Lebron's AST/TO ratio was higher. And while I'm certainly taking Jordan as the better overall player, I'm taking Lebron as a ballhandler and playmaker hands down. Jordan wasn't even the best ballhandler on his own team. Pippen was a phenomenal point forward and every bit the playmaker that Jordan was.

I don't know. Jordan's ball handling is probably the most underrated part of his game. He had huge hands. He very rarely made bad decisions. He very rarely over dribbled. He very rarely lost handle of the ball or was forced to pick up his dribble.

Jordan played faster than LeBron. Meaning he made up his mind on what he was doing. If he was going to shoot he decided that early. If he was going to pass he decided that quickly as well.

Vinylman
02-10-2015, 01:42 PM
stupid thread... both are great ball handlers ...

as far as who has the better career to this point... not close

mngopher35
02-10-2015, 02:01 PM
Lebron is the better playmaker but Jordan was the better ball handler.

sheesh
02-10-2015, 02:58 PM
Lebron is the better playmaker but Jordan was the better ball handler.

I'd say Jordan was better at both. Excluding PG's Jordan is one of the better ball handlers league history. He also excels at playmaking too.

The league is different now. If Jordan played in today's softer league he'd be driving and dishing more. He'd also be playing in an era that understood the importance of the 3 pt shot and have guys camped out behind the arc.

Jordan wasn't asked to be the primary distributor. Except the season he averaged 32, 8 and 8.

For whatever reason. It could be they wanted more guys involved. Jordan could just score anyways so why make an extra pass? Maybe he wanted to focus more on scoring. The coach didn't want them to be too one dimensional.

Who knows? But Jordan if he wanted to could have been a better distributor than LeBron.

Kashmir13579
02-10-2015, 03:01 PM
Thread title really got me for a second. I figured I was walking into a drunk rant about Lebron surpassing Jordan's legacy... Instead I got an equally stupid argument from the anti-Lebron side of the fence. Bravo to you sir. lolololololol

mngopher35
02-10-2015, 03:10 PM
I'd say Jordan was better at both. Excluding PG's Jordan is one of the better ball handlers league history. He also excels at playmaking too.

The league is different now. If Jordan played in today's softer league he'd be driving and dishing more. He'd also be playing in an era that understood the importance of the 3 pt shot and have guys camped out behind the arc.

Jordan wasn't asked to be the primary distributor. Except the season he averaged 32, 8 and 8.

For whatever reason. It could be they wanted more guys involved. Jordan could just score anyways so why make an extra pass? Maybe he wanted to focus more on scoring. The coach didn't want them to be too one dimensional.

Who knows? But Jordan if he wanted to could have been a better distributor than LeBron.

That's fine, but I would disagree. Defenses are actually more complex now than when Jordan played so we will disagree a there. In the end we saw what each did on their era and lebron at least was a more willing passer.

Lebron makes some pretty tough passes and it's why many say he is more magic not Jordan. These things can be shown with his higher ast%. To me when you put it all together lebron was a better playmaker (statistically it shows) but I wouldn't say he was a better ball handler.