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View Full Version : Tom Thibodeau's Relationship With The Bulls Is Beyond Repair



Clippersfan86
01-29-2015, 01:22 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25006122

"Despite the two seasons left on the four-year extension Thibodeau took several months to sign in the 2012-13 season, several league sources believe Thibodeau's relationship with management is beyond repair. And while there are no plans to replace Thibodeau during the season, a mutual parting of the ways after this season wouldn't surprise many league personnel familiar with the deteriorating dynamic."

Sly Guy
01-29-2015, 01:34 PM
wow, had no idea as to any of this. Good find. Bulls' management would be really ******** to let this guy go. He's the biggest reason why the Bulls are who they are.

RowBTrice
01-29-2015, 01:53 PM
wow, had no idea as to any of this. Good find. Bulls' management would be really ******** to let this guy go. He's the biggest reason why the Bulls are who they are.

This has been going on for years. You really had no idea about any of it?

giventofly
01-29-2015, 01:53 PM
This is a steaming load. Media trying to make a story out of nothing. He's not going anywhere.

valade16
01-29-2015, 02:00 PM
This is like Jim Harbaugh in SF for the NBA. Trust me, they need to keep Thibs.

beasted86
01-29-2015, 02:12 PM
He would have plenty of suitors if it came to that. But I'm not sure how much off this story to believe. I know for sure he was upset they salary dumped Deng, but this "over-playing" theory sounds far fetched unless management is trying to blame the injuries on his coaching.

JasonJohnHorn
01-29-2015, 02:15 PM
The Bulls have made mistakes in the past. They let Phil walk. And they have consistently been letting players Thibs has developed or used heavly walk way. Asik. Korver. Boozer. Belinelli. Watson. Augustin. Deng. Letting Boozer go was done to bring in Gasol... ok... but the rest.. I mean... the Bulls just didn't want to pay for these guys. Letting them walk hurt the team's depth. Had they kept Orver and Asik and Deng, they'd have far more depth and wouldn't need to play everybody such heavy minutes. They would have also been able to still bring in Gasol because they could have worked a sign and trade with LAL for Boozer, since LAL picked him up anyway.

the front office, last year, seemed to be trying to get in the lottery with Rose out... it seemed like they saw the season as a wash and knew they wouldn't contend, and so would have rather just got a lottery pick, but Thibs got the most out of that team. The the Bulls' front office was willing to spend money and kept players, the Bulls would be head-and-shoulders the best team in the east right now. Instead, they are struggling to stay on top of their division. To suggest that there isn't a rift between Thibs and the front office is to ignore everything that has been going on the last three years. The two sides clearly have different agendas.

kozelkid
01-29-2015, 02:35 PM
The Bulls have made mistakes in the past. They let Phil walk. And they have consistently been letting players Thibs has developed or used heavly walk way. Asik. Korver. Boozer. Belinelli. Watson. Augustin. Deng. Letting Boozer go was done to bring in Gasol... ok... but the rest.. I mean... the Bulls just didn't want to pay for these guys. Letting them walk hurt the team's depth. Had they kept Orver and Asik and Deng, they'd have far more depth and wouldn't need to play everybody such heavy minutes. They would have also been able to still bring in Gasol because they could have worked a sign and trade with LAL for Boozer, since LAL picked him up anyway.

the front office, last year, seemed to be trying to get in the lottery with Rose out... it seemed like they saw the season as a wash and knew they wouldn't contend, and so would have rather just got a lottery pick, but Thibs got the most out of that team. The the Bulls' front office was willing to spend money and kept players, the Bulls would be head-and-shoulders the best team in the east right now. Instead, they are struggling to stay on top of their division. To suggest that there isn't a rift between Thibs and the front office is to ignore everything that has been going on the last three years. The two sides clearly have different agendas.

Lot of conjectures with this post. To suggest that Thibs would be upset that the Bulls let the likes of Boozer, Belinelli, Watson, or Augustin leave, is laughable. They are all average role players at BEST with Boozer just being an overpaid scrub. I don't know how he felt about Korver, but that's one I certainly was upset about. As far as Asik goes, there was literally nothing the Bulls could have done. He was the classic example of PPP/Gilbert Arenas Provision. Literally nothing the Bulls could have aside from maybe trading him in the preceding trade deadline, but I'd assume Thibs would have been more upset with that move. The recycling of small, shoot-first guards is a praise to Thibs' development of said players if anything else. And here he is doing it again with Brooks. And FYI, Belinelli was replaced with Dunleavy.

Frankly, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. If there is anything for Thibs to be upset, it's twofold. One, the firing of Ron Adams, and two, possibly the minutes restrictions. As far as the first one goes, Ron Adams chose to run his mouth and got his just desserts. Great assistant, but if you can't recognize where you fall as an assistant coach, you won't last long.

As far as the minutes restrictions go, good for the FO for letting Thibs know about lessening the minutes. If he STILL doesn't get that his "push the pedal to the metal" philosophy destroys his team come playoff team, then someone else has to inform him. As awesome of a tactician he is, his unability to get this may be his downfall, and I'd be ready to move on myself if that's the case. We've seen the results the past 3 seasons, and while I recognize that our talent was obviously not there without Rose, we also saw Noah basically destroyed once playoffs rolled around.

mRc08
01-29-2015, 02:38 PM
This is nothing new, just another reported stating what has been discussed by chicago sports fans and media. The main problem:

- Management doesn't want to push players too hard during the regular season to preserve them for the playoffs.
- Thibs will do anything to win every single night, including playing the likes of butler and noah 40+ minutes over the past few seasons.

I think there is some truth to the "friction" that exists, but if the bulls make it to the Eastern Conference Finals this year, there is no way management fires him. If they exit first round or something like that, perhaps they would, but if they only make it that far it would be because of health, or problems worth letting thibs go. MOST chicago fans will tell you the issue is overblown and I agree, though, Thib's tragic flaw is how much he demands from his players. His biggest strength could be his downfall, but I don't see it happening this or next year.

Pierzynski4Prez
01-29-2015, 02:38 PM
The Bulls have made mistakes in the past. They let Phil walk. And they have consistently been letting players Thibs has developed or used heavly walk way. Asik. Korver. Boozer. Belinelli. Watson. Augustin. Deng. Letting Boozer go was done to bring in Gasol... ok... but the rest.. I mean... the Bulls just didn't want to pay for these guys. Letting them walk hurt the team's depth. Had they kept Orver and Asik and Deng, they'd have far more depth and wouldn't need to play everybody such heavy minutes. They would have also been able to still bring in Gasol because they could have worked a sign and trade with LAL for Boozer, since LAL picked him up anyway.

the front office, last year, seemed to be trying to get in the lottery with Rose out... it seemed like they saw the season as a wash and knew they wouldn't contend, and so would have rather just got a lottery pick, but Thibs got the most out of that team. The the Bulls' front office was willing to spend money and kept players, the Bulls would be head-and-shoulders the best team in the east right now. Instead, they are struggling to stay on top of their division. To suggest that there isn't a rift between Thibs and the front office is to ignore everything that has been going on the last three years. The two sides clearly have different agendas.

So did this Front Office let Phil Walk? Or was that some horrible GM like 16 years ago? What does that have to do with the last few years?

Deng was offered a larger contract than he got on the open market, and turned it down. And they got a great return for it. What should they have done? Especially with Jimmy Butler right behind him.

Most of the other guys you listed are role players that were simply replaced outside of Korver. Doesn't just about every team shuffle their bench at minimum every few seasons? Had they kept Asik and Deng we'd have no money last summer for Pau, Niko, Brooks and potentially be in a bind with Jimmy's extension. This FO is actually done a very good job considering the value they've gotten on late picks, and the ability to still be a top team in the conference each year while still obtaining future assets (Mcdermott this last year,Kings pick, cavs swap)

ChI_ShIzzLe
01-29-2015, 03:18 PM
Media just tying throw **** at the wall and hoping it sticks. Paxson was on the radio the other day and he laughed off the notion that there are major issues with Thibs.

beasted86
01-29-2015, 04:43 PM
Media just tying throw **** at the wall and hoping it sticks. Paxson was on the radio the other day and he laughed off the notion that there are major issues with Thibs.

Not saying I disagree with the story being far fetched, but what would you expect him to say?

Yagyu+
01-29-2015, 04:45 PM
They keep negotiating extensions for Benny the Bull. That's all that matters.

Goose17
01-29-2015, 04:50 PM
I think it might be exaggerated but there's no smoke without fire.

DamnGoat
01-29-2015, 04:55 PM
It's been an ongoing story for about 3 years now. It's funny how it comes out when the Bulls are struggling though.

There's definitely some truth to it but it's always felt exaggerated.

kozelkid
01-29-2015, 05:18 PM
I think it might be exaggerated but there's no smoke without fire.

Certainly. I don't think anyone denies there's friction and some amount is necessary to progress. How much remains to be seen. That said, if the friction is mainly due to Thibs' stubborness to relax a bit during the regular season, then honestly I'm ready to move on.

Also, as others have mentioned, this has been a story for 3 seasons now. The only difference might be that players are beginning to finally start tuning Thibs out, a bit. That's a common result with hardnosed coaches like Thibs and which is why said coaches don't last longer than 5 seasons or so (see: JVG, Skiles, Larry Brown, etc.). If that's also the case, then it's time to move on as well. And it very well may be the case judging by the drop on the Bulls' defense and their intensity at that end, this season.

Goose17
01-29-2015, 05:31 PM
Certainly. I don't think anyone denies there's friction and some amount is necessary to progress. How much remains to be seen. That said, if the friction is mainly due to Thibs' stubborness to relax a bit during the regular season, then honestly I'm ready to move on.

Also, as others have mentioned, this has been a story for 3 seasons now. The only difference might be that players are beginning to finally start tuning Thibs out, a bit. That's a common result with hardnosed coaches like Thibs and which is why said coaches don't last longer than 5 seasons or so (see: JVG, Skiles, Larry Brown, etc.). If that's also the case, then it's time to move on as well. And it very well may be the case judging by the drop on the Bulls' defense and their intensity at that end, this season.

The drop in defense is due to Adams leaving. He was the architect of that defense. Thibs got way too much credit for that. Guess that's how it works though, with assistants and head coaches. Like Phil always getting credit for the triangle.

Ezio
01-29-2015, 05:34 PM
The drop in defense is due to Adams leaving. He was the architect of that defense. Thibs got way too much credit for that. Guess that's how it works though, with assistants and head coaches. Like Phil always getting credit for the triangle.

Really? He left what 2 years ago? The Bulls were top 3 defensively. This year they are still hovering around top 10 and that's with Jo in and out and still not 100% from his knee surgery.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 05:38 PM
The drop in defense is due to Adams leaving. He was the architect of that defense. Thibs got way too much credit for that. Guess that's how it works though, with assistants and head coaches. Like Phil always getting credit for the triangle.

Huh ? This is the first time the defense has been bad on the bulls , Adams been gone for 2 years . Frankly injuries and players regressing are the main reasons why the bulls have been suspect sometimes . We only has a healthy starting lineup 15 times and went 13-2 in that span and we were playing Bulls level defense .

RiLoc
01-29-2015, 05:39 PM
The Bulls have a history of this type of behavior. I feel like there is always going to be noise about this while Thibodeau coaches there or maybe any coach.

On a Grantland podcast Bill Simmons said, "Jennifer Swanson is a big part of the conflict. Physical therapy performance person that the Bulls front office hired. (...) Front office relies on her heavily and that's making Thibs very uncomfortable. (...) She's telling management and Thibs how many minutes guys need to play and that's leading to an internal conflict." (source: BS Report Podcast (http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=12238852)) If that's true, that's kind of a nasty situation. Then again, Bill Simmons is prone to conspiracy theories, so who knows.

To me, I could definitely see the Bulls having dispute with Thibs over minutes. Thibs is an incredible coach, but he has a history of overplaying players and it's really out of line with what teams are finding and changing their policies to.

Goose17
01-29-2015, 05:48 PM
Really? He left what 2 years ago? The Bulls were top 3 defensively. This year they are still hovering around top 10 and that's with Jo in and out and still not 100% from his knee surgery.

They've regressed every year after he left. Noah and Deng kept them relevant defensively. The talent kept them going not the coaching.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 05:50 PM
They've regressed every year after he left. Noah and Deng kept them relevant defensively. The talent kept them going not the coaching.

Bulls yes or no weren't in the top 5 of defense last season ?

JeffG20
01-29-2015, 05:51 PM
For tge love of god, get him to NO with Davis.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 05:58 PM
Opponents points per game rankings of the Bulls


2010 -2011

2nd

2011 -2012

1st


2012 -2013

3rd

2013- 2014

1st

Goose17
01-29-2015, 05:59 PM
Bulls yes or no weren't in the top 5 of defense last season ?

Yes. Thanks to the talent. And they were still worse than the previous years. Being top 5 is worse than being top 3. Still amazing. But worse than before. The talent kept them relevant. Not the coaching. That is obvious now.

I never said they weren't a good team defensively last season. Point to the post where I did.

Ezio
01-29-2015, 06:00 PM
Opponents points per game rankings of the Bulls


2010 -2011

2nd

2011 -2012

1st


2012 -2013

3rd

2013- 2014

1st

There was an ESPN picture that showed the same thing but I guess it's all Ron Adams.

Ezio
01-29-2015, 06:02 PM
They've regressed every year after he left. Noah and Deng kept them relevant defensively. The talent kept them going not the coaching.


Yes. Thanks to the talent. And they were still worse than the previous years. Being top 5 is worse than being top 3. Still amazing. But worse than before. The talent kept them relevant. Not the coaching. That is obvious now.

I never said they weren't a good team defensively last season. Point to the post where I did.

If they regressed like you said they did then why were they ranked 1 in oppg last season?

Deng was traded half way too.

Goose17
01-29-2015, 06:02 PM
There was an ESPN picture that showed the same thing but I guess it's all Ron Adams.

Ron Adams and the talent. Deng is gone. Noah is nursing injuries. Adams is gone. And suddenly they're not so great defensively.

It never had anything to do with Thibs. It was Adams and the talent.

Goose17
01-29-2015, 06:05 PM
If they regressed like you said they did then why were they ranked 1 in oppg last season?

Deng was traded half way too.

I never said Deng wasn't traded half way through the season. I'm aware of that.

Bulls fans don't like to hear it but Thibs isn't that great a defensive coach. If he was they would be doing better defensively now than they are.

The players (Deng and Noah mostly) plus Adams were the reason Chicago was so good defensively imo. If you don't agree with that then fine, I really don't care. It's what I believe to be true though and there's no evidence to support otherwise that I can see.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 06:06 PM
Yes. Thanks to the talent. And they were still worse than the previous years. Being top 5 is worse than being top 3. Still amazing. But worse than before. The talent kept them relevant. Not the coaching. That is obvious now.

I never said they weren't a good team defensively last season. Point to the post where I did.

You said they regressed when Adams left but they actually improved the following year . It's a load of crap to think defense is just 100% talent and no coaching is involved. Ask Ray Allen and Pierce if Thibs didn't help , or go down to ATL where Kyle praises Thibs for Mekong him a better defender and he's translated that over to his time now in ATL . So you said the defense was more Adams than because of Thibs but then said it's more the players ... Which one is it ? Bulls haven't had a heathy roster this year and this defense won't go as far as it can without Noah .. Nobody will dispute that . But these players would never had played as hard as they did if it wasn't for Thibs .

Ezio
01-29-2015, 06:06 PM
Ron Adams and the talent. Deng is gone. Noah is nursing injuries. Adams is gone. And suddenly they're not so great defensively.

It never had anything to do with Thibs. It was Adams and the talent.

Tell me a coach who wins w/o talent?

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 06:07 PM
I think it might be exaggerated but there's no smoke without fire.

Yeah, there's no doubt that friction exists. Just seems to get blown up once or twice a year. I still blame Bill Simmons.

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 06:07 PM
Tell me a coach who wins w/o talent?

Phil ****ing Jackson.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 06:10 PM
I never said Deng wasn't traded half way through the season. I'm aware of that.

Bulls fans don't like to hear it but Thibs isn't that great a defensive coach. If he was they would be doing better defensively now than they are.

The players (Deng and Noah mostly) plus Adams were the reason Chicago was so good defensively imo. If you don't agree with that then fine, I really don't care. It's what I believe to be true though and there's no evidence to support otherwise that I can see.

How can you do better defensively where players have regressed defensively and you have had your best big defender 100% ? Players might make the coaches look good in sports but it's up to the coach to put everyone in the right places to succeed and Thibs has done that . But to each their own

Ezio
01-29-2015, 06:11 PM
Yeah, there's no doubt that friction exists. Just seems to get blown up once or twice a year. I still blame Bill Simmons.


Phil ****ing Jackson.

Speaking of Phil, it's not like him and Kruse had the best of relationships as well.

Goose17
01-29-2015, 06:11 PM
Tell me a coach who wins w/o talent?

You think there's no talent on their roster outside of Noah?

Good defensive coaches get teams playing good defense. It's literally that simple.

The players on that roster are capable of more defensively with the proper coaching, I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

Do you think Milwaukee and Atlanta have THAT much more defensive talent than Chicago? Or do they have similar talent levels and better defensive coaching? What about Charlotte and Indiana who are also ahead of Chicago defensively?

Goose17
01-29-2015, 06:13 PM
You said they regressed when Adams left but they actually improved the following year . It's a load of crap to think defense is just 100% talent and no coaching is involved. Ask Ray Allen and Pierce if Thibs didn't help , or go down to ATL where Kyle praises Thibs for Mekong him a better defender and he's translated that over to his time now in ATL . So you said the defense was more Adams than because of Thibs but then said it's more the players ... Which one is it ? Bulls haven't had a heathy roster this year and this defense won't go as far as it can without Noah .. Nobody will dispute that . But these players would never had played as hard as they did if it wasn't for Thibs .

I disagree.

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 06:15 PM
They've regressed every year after he left. Noah and Deng kept them relevant defensively. The talent kept them going not the coaching.

I believe that all metrics pointed to us improving after Deng left for the second half of 2013-2014. Don't have time to look up the specifics atm, but I will when I get a chance. If you think Thibs isn't the primary reason for their defensive dominance over the past couple years, I strongly disagree.

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 06:16 PM
Speaking of Phil, it's not like him and Kruse had the best of relationships as well.

Exactly. Friction is easily surmountable, and exists in most workplaces. It's why the Thibs is leaving rumors have panned out to nothing for the past 3 seasons.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 06:16 PM
You think there's no talent on their roster outside of Noah?

Good defensive coaches get teams playing good defense. It's literally that simple.

The players on that roster are capable of more defensively with the proper coaching, I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

Do you think Milwaukee and Atlanta have THAT much more defensive talent than Chicago? Or do they have similar talent levels and better defensive coaching? What about Charlotte and Indiana who are also ahead of Chicago defensively?

Have you even watched a bulls game this year , Taj " supposed defensive ace " has been crap this season , Kirk Hinrich equall crap , Pau good with blocks but can really move , Jimmy is gold , Rose still here and there , Brooks does the best he can for being little , Doug hasn't played a lot and his a rookie and it's Doug , snell is an idiot , Bairstow .... , Naz ..... , MDJ is missed he's does ok nothing great . I mean come on dude really

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 06:17 PM
Bulls fans don't like to hear it but Thibs isn't that great a defensive coach. If he was they would be doing better defensively now than they are.

Wait...really? Like really? You're literally the only individual I've ever heard actually attempt to make that assertion. Do you just want to be different?

Ezio
01-29-2015, 06:18 PM
You think there's no talent on their roster outside of Noah?

Good defensive coaches get teams playing good defense. It's literally that simple.

The players on that roster are capable of more defensively with the proper coaching, I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

Do you think Milwaukee and Atlanta have THAT much more defensive talent than Chicago? Or do they have similar talent levels and better defensive coaching? What about Charlotte and Indiana who are also ahead of Chicago defensively?

Is there a better defender outside of a healthy Jo? No I don't think so. He's better than Butler. Pau is slow, Taj is in lala land now, Kirk is old and Rose is busy throwing balls away.

Those teams you mention have had their rim protectors healthy not the Bulls. When the Bulls started rolling they were close to having a top 5 offense and defense then the injury bug came.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 06:18 PM
I disagree.

You can but it's a fact that with all the injuries the Bulls had since Thibs has been here we have overachieved . You think highly of the bulls players because Thibs gets the best out of them , they play for Thibs they love Thibs .

Goose17
01-29-2015, 06:22 PM
Have you even watched a bulls game this year , Taj " supposed defensive ace " has been crap this season , Kirk Hinrich equall crap , Pau good with blocks but can really move , Jimmy is gold , Rose still here and there , Brooks does the best he can for being little , Doug hasn't played a lot and his a rookie and it's Doug , snell is an idiot , Bairstow .... , Naz ..... , MDJ is missed he's does ok nothing great . I mean come on dude really

Yes. All these guys who were good defenders before are now playing like crap defensively and it's because Thibs is an elite defensive coach. Yep. Well done.

I'm not saying he's not a good defensive coach. I'm saying the majority of the credit belongs to Adams and the roster.

kozelkid
01-29-2015, 06:26 PM
The drop in defense is due to Adams leaving. He was the architect of that defense. Thibs got way too much credit for that. Guess that's how it works though, with assistants and head coaches. Like Phil always getting credit for the triangle.
Nonsense. Bulls defense with Thibs was elite before Adams re-joined and remained elite after he left. This is literally the first time in the Thibs era that our defense dipped this much.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 06:27 PM
Yes. All these guys who were good defenders before are now playing like crap defensively and it's because Thibs is an elite defensive coach. Yep. Well done.

I'm not saying he's not a good defensive coach. I'm saying the majority of the credit belongs to Adams and the roster.

So why is it just you that thinks this opposed to other posters and other people in the NBA ?

Has it ever crossed your mind that Thibs is telling his players to execute a plan and the players just aren't preforming ? Wow you're something else do but power to ya

Shmontaine
01-29-2015, 06:28 PM
Teams defensive efficiency rankings:

Year Team Thibs Rank Team Adams Rank
03-04 Houston 5th Chicago 16th
04-05 Houston 4th Chicago 2nd
05-06 Houston 7th Chicago 5th
06-07 Houston 3rd Chicago 1st
07-08 Boston 1st Chicago 13th
08-09 Boston 3rd OKC 20th
09-10 Boston 3rd OKC 7th
10-11 Chicago 1st Chicago 1st
11-12 Chicago 1st Chicago 1st
12-13 Chicago 8th Chicago 8th
13-14 Chicago 2nd Boston 17th
13-14 Chicago 12th GS 1st

they're both great defensive coaches, and work great together. but if you are forced to pick one, it's Thibs all day.

MassoDio
01-29-2015, 06:38 PM
Yes. All these guys who were good defenders before are now playing like crap defensively and it's because Thibs is an elite defensive coach. Yep. Well done.

I'm not saying he's not a good defensive coach. I'm saying the majority of the credit belongs to Adams and the roster.

Wait...wait...wait....Which ones are the "all these guys who were good defenders?"

Noah? - Missed 11 games so far this year. When he has been in the line-up, has been dealing with nagging injuries. Learning to play with another 7 footer who plays in the same spaces. All of which makes a drop in defensive effectiveness a reasonable expectation.

Taj? Missed 9 games so far this year. Has not played a consistent roll all year due to injuries to himself and others, as well as Mirotic being better offensively than anyone expected. All of which makes a drop in defensive effectiveness a reasonable expectation.

Jimmy? Has been solid all year defensively.

Rose? Seriously? He is coming back from two years out. As much as it is going to take to get his offensive game back...it will also take to get his defensive game back.

Pau? Wasn't on the team with Ron Adams, but has never been a "good" defensive player. But he IS having a career year in blocks.

Hinrich? His body has been falling apart for a couple of years now. He just isn't a plus defender anymore. His drop off has nothing to do with Adams being gone, and a lot to do with his body failing him. Plus, he was not on the team for some of the Adams years.

MDJ? NEver been a good defender.

Brooks? First year on the team...never been a good defender.

Naz? Seriously...come on.

Snell...is lucky if he isn't sitting at the end of the bench.

McDermott? Rookie...also been hurt a lot of the year.

I mean really, you have nothing to stand on in these assertions. Absolutely nothing. You say it was Adams...and they have been deteriorating since he left. Then someone shows you numbers that say otherwise, and you refute it with...what...this year's defensive statistics?

Teams do have down years on one side of the ball or the other. It happens. For various reasons...most of which in sports...you can find in the break down of each player above....it is fairly common.

And I am not trying to downplay the roll that Adams had. He is a very good assistant coach. But to say that he was the mastermind...and the reason for the good defense, when Thibs has been around longer, and had people such as JVG and Doc Rivers call him a defensive genius....I think you reaching. Why, I don't know.

MassoDio
01-29-2015, 06:43 PM
And for the record....

I do believe there is friction. There has been friction almost every year Thibs has been the coach in Chicago. And there will continue to be friction as long as he is here. He and the front office have differing opinions on how much players should play. Neither side is going to change their stance. And at some point it is probably going to mean that Thibs is no longer the coach.

I tend to agree with the management side on this. There is no reason for Thibs to run his players into the ground like he does during the regular season. It is the one thing about him that I have never liked.

kozelkid
01-29-2015, 06:55 PM
Wait...wait...wait....Which ones are the "all these guys who were good defenders?"

Noah? - Missed 11 games so far this year. When he has been in the line-up, has been dealing with nagging injuries. Learning to play with another 7 footer who plays in the same spaces. All of which makes a drop in defensive effectiveness a reasonable expectation.

Taj? Missed 9 games so far this year. Has not played a consistent roll all year due to injuries to himself and others, as well as Mirotic being better offensively than anyone expected. All of which makes a drop in defensive effectiveness a reasonable expectation.

Jimmy? Has been solid all year defensively.

Rose? Seriously? He is coming back from two years out. As much as it is going to take to get his offensive game back...it will also take to get his defensive game back.

Pau? Wasn't on the team with Ron Adams, but has never been a "good" defensive player. But he IS having a career year in blocks.

Hinrich? His body has been falling apart for a couple of years now. He just isn't a plus defender anymore. His drop off has nothing to do with Adams being gone, and a lot to do with his body failing him. Plus, he was not on the team for some of the Adams years.

MDJ? NEver been a good defender.

Brooks? First year on the team...never been a good defender.

Naz? Seriously...come on.

Snell...is lucky if he isn't sitting at the end of the bench.

McDermott? Rookie...also been hurt a lot of the year.

I mean really, you have nothing to stand on in these assertions. Absolutely nothing. You say it was Adams...and they have been deteriorating since he left. Then someone shows you numbers that say otherwise, and you refute it with...what...this year's defensive statistics?

Teams do have down years on one side of the ball or the other. It happens. For various reasons...most of which in sports...you can find in the break down of each player above....it is fairly common.

And I am not trying to downplay the roll that Adams had. He is a very good assistant coach. But to say that he was the mastermind...and the reason for the good defense, when Thibs has been around longer, and had people such as JVG and Doc Rivers call him a defensive genius....I think you reaching. Why, I don't know.

I know exactly why he's reaching. He's a Warriors fan and Ron Adams happens to currently be one of their assistant coaches.

But anyway, spot on with the analysis of our personnel. To add, we have a very unathletic team. Noah's knees look like they're done and Rose is still adjusting. So really, just Butler. That's a far cry from when Thibs first arrived when we had Brewer, a pre-injury Rose, a prime Noah, a prime Deng and a Taj Gibson who gave a ****.

And on a final note, I do legitimately think that the players might finally be tuning him out. Frankly, it's inevitable with hardnosed coaches that come from the same mold as Thibs. Their grinding style usually leads to an eventual expiration date, see: Larry Brown, Scott Skills, JVG, Nate McMillan, Byron West, etc.

MassoDio
01-29-2015, 07:01 PM
I know exactly why he's reaching. He's a Warriors fan and Ron Adams happens to currently be one of their assistant coaches.

But anyway, spot on with the analysis of our personnel. To add, we have a very unathletic team. Noah's knees look like they're done and Rose is still adjusting. So really, just Butler. That's a far cry from when Thibs first arrived when we had Brewer, a pre-injury Rose, a prime Noah, a prime Deng and a Taj Gibson who gave a ****.

And on a final note, I do legitimately think that the players might finally be tuning him out. Frankly, it's inevitable with hardnosed coaches that come from the same mold as Thibs. Their grinding style usually leads to an eventual expiration date, see: Larry Brown, Scott Skills, JVG, Nate McMillan, Byron West, etc.

Ahh yes...I forgot Ron Adams was with the Warriors this year. It makes sense now. It's wrong, but it makes sense.

I agree on the unathletic team...Noah's knees (I would just say his legs as a whole) and the defensive team the Bulls used to have.

This team was built purposely to take offensive pressure off of Rose while he is coming back, with the acknowledgement that the defense was going to suffer a bit. The injuries and the flightiness of Taj just were not factored in to that.

I also agree about the players tuning Thibs out. It is inevitable with his coaching style. We had a first hand look at it with Skiles. (Thibs being the superior coach obviously.)

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 08:03 PM
I know exactly why he's reaching. He's a Warriors fan and Ron Adams happens to currently be one of their assistant coaches.

But anyway, spot on with the analysis of our personnel. To add, we have a very unathletic team. Noah's knees look like they're done and Rose is still adjusting. So really, just Butler. That's a far cry from when Thibs first arrived when we had Brewer, a pre-injury Rose, a prime Noah, a prime Deng and a Taj Gibson who gave a ****.

And on a final note, I do legitimately think that the players might finally be tuning him out. Frankly, it's inevitable with hardnosed coaches that come from the same mold as Thibs. Their grinding style usually leads to an eventual expiration date, see: Larry Brown, Scott Skills, JVG, Nate McMillan, Byron West, etc.

Theeeeeeeeeeere we go. Nice catch.

colinskik
01-29-2015, 08:11 PM
Theeeeeeeeeeere we go. Nice catch.

Problem solved.

JasonJohnHorn
01-29-2015, 09:10 PM
Lot of conjectures with this post. To suggest that Thibs would be upset that the Bulls let the likes of Boozer, Belinelli, Watson, or Augustin leave, is laughable. They are all average role players at BEST with Boozer just being an overpaid scrub. I don't know how he felt about Korver, but that's one I certainly was upset about. As far as Asik goes, there was literally nothing the Bulls could have done. He was the classic example of PPP/Gilbert Arenas Provision. Literally nothing the Bulls could have aside from maybe trading him in the preceding trade deadline, but I'd assume Thibs would have been more upset with that move. The recycling of small, shoot-first guards is a praise to Thibs' development of said players if anything else. And here he is doing it again with Brooks. And FYI, Belinelli was replaced with Dunleavy.

Frankly, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. If there is anything for Thibs to be upset, it's twofold. One, the firing of Ron Adams, and two, possibly the minutes restrictions. As far as the first one goes, Ron Adams chose to run his mouth and got his just desserts. Great assistant, but if you can't recognize where you fall as an assistant coach, you won't last long.

As far as the minutes restrictions go, good for the FO for letting Thibs know about lessening the minutes. If he STILL doesn't get that his "push the pedal to the metal" philosophy destroys his team come playoff team, then someone else has to inform him. As awesome of a tactician he is, his unability to get this may be his downfall, and I'd be ready to move on myself if that's the case. We've seen the results the past 3 seasons, and while I recognize that our talent was obviously not there without Rose, we also saw Noah basically destroyed once playoffs rolled around.


It's not about any one player being let go, but the pattern of Thibs having to make a new team pretty much eveyr season because he's got so few returning players.


you are right, Augistne Watson and Belinelli are average, but they all knew the system and had success.

As for Boozer... you miss what I said. I said that was acceptable because it meant getting Gasol, but if you think letting Asik, Deng and Krover go hasn't slowed down the progress of this team and made Thib's job that much harder, then you under estimate their impact.

As for Asik... the bulls could have matched the deal. they were allowed to. It averaged out to 8 million per year. No big deal. Arenas was a different kind of player who made more money, That was just a matter of the Bulls not wanting to pay to win. and any coach is going to be frustrated with that.

Stunner
01-29-2015, 09:17 PM
No Asik deal
Had a poison pill in it , it wasn't worth matching

InRoseWeTrust
01-29-2015, 09:28 PM
It's not about any one player being let go, but the pattern of Thibs having to make a new team pretty much eveyr season because he's got so few returning players.


you are right, Augistne Watson and Belinelli are average, but they all knew the system and had success.

As for Boozer... you miss what I said. I said that was acceptable because it meant getting Gasol, but if you think letting Asik, Deng and Krover go hasn't slowed down the progress of this team and made Thib's job that much harder, then you under estimate their impact.

As for Asik... the bulls could have matched the deal. they were allowed to. It averaged out to 8 million per year. No big deal. Arenas was a different kind of player who made more money, That was just a matter of the Bulls not wanting to pay to win. and any coach is going to be frustrated with that.

It averaged it like 9, but the cap hit was $15 in the last year of the deal only for the Bulls because of the poison pill. It would have destroyed our roster. It would have made no sense to keep Asik.

Deng also turned down 3/30 from us, so we moved him. He tested the market and only got 2/20. So we were supposed to overpay him just for the sake of consistency when his offense had clearly plateaued and his defense was starting to decline? No thanks.

As for Korver, yeah, that sucked. I would have loved to have him here.

jp611
01-29-2015, 09:58 PM
So dumb.

KG2TB
01-29-2015, 10:23 PM
It averaged it like 9, but the cap hit was $15 in the last year of the deal only for the Bulls because of the poison pill. It would have destroyed our roster. It would have made no sense to keep Asik.

Deng also turned down 3/30 from us, so we moved him. He tested the market and only got 2/20. So we were supposed to overpay him just for the sake of consistency when his offense had clearly plateaued and his defense was starting to decline? No thanks.

As for Korver, yeah, that sucked. I would have loved to have him here.

Yep. Pretty much all this. Korver was the biggest loss and probably the only one I was upset about. Other than that, I think the FO played their cards about as well you could expect since Thibs arrived.

Ezio
01-29-2015, 10:50 PM
Didn't we traded Korver away after Rose tore his ACL? I think it was just strictly to get under the tax for the next year since we weren't going to be competitive.

JasonJohnHorn
01-29-2015, 11:19 PM
It averaged it like 9, but the cap hit was $15 in the last year of the deal only for the Bulls because of the poison pill. It would have destroyed our roster. It would have made no sense to keep Asik.

Deng also turned down 3/30 from us, so we moved him. He tested the market and only got 2/20. So we were supposed to overpay him just for the sake of consistency when his offense had clearly plateaued and his defense was starting to decline? No thanks.

As for Korver, yeah, that sucked. I would have loved to have him here.

The poison pill was tough to swallow I agree... but if that was NY or LAL... the ownership takes the hit. Period. Chicago is one of the most profitable teams in the league, there is no reason they can't take a hit on the luxury tax like that.

I agree the Deng thing was tricky... but it's not like he said he didn't want to play.... he turned down an extension to text the market, but if the Bulls kept him they could have match the offer or went back to their 3/30 offer, which is better than the 2/20 he got (as you pointed out). Deng is a good defender and an iron man with the minutes he plays. And a competent scorer who isn't a prima donna. He likes sharing the ball and works hard. I can't imagine that Thibs was happy to see him go.

My problem with Chicago ownership is that they make the money of a big market, but they pay out salaries like they are Minny or Milwaukee? As a coach, that has GOT to be frustrating.


http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45hle/1-chicago-bulls/


I get the distinct impression that the Bulls ownership cares more about making money than they do about winning. I'm sure Thibs would rather play for an owner like Cuban who is willing to go over the luxury cap to keep and bring in talent.

You got good points.. I'm not trying to be confrontational... I just feel bad when a coach does such a great job and his ownership keeps shipping players out.

DamnGoat
01-29-2015, 11:47 PM
Ugh...this "the Bulls are cheap" narrative seriously needs to stop. It's past the point of being annoying and there's plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise if you just take the time to look.

InRoseWeTrust
01-30-2015, 12:14 AM
The poison pill was tough to swallow I agree... but if that was NY or LAL... the ownership takes the hit. Period. Chicago is one of the most profitable teams in the league, there is no reason they can't take a hit on the luxury tax like that.

I agree the Deng thing was tricky... but it's not like he said he didn't want to play.... he turned down an extension to text the market, but if the Bulls kept him they could have match the offer or went back to their 3/30 offer, which is better than the 2/20 he got (as you pointed out). Deng is a good defender and an iron man with the minutes he plays. And a competent scorer who isn't a prima donna. He likes sharing the ball and works hard. I can't imagine that Thibs was happy to see him go.

My problem with Chicago ownership is that they make the money of a big market, but they pay out salaries like they are Minny or Milwaukee? As a coach, that has GOT to be frustrating.


http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45hle/1-chicago-bulls/


I get the distinct impression that the Bulls ownership cares more about making money than they do about winning. I'm sure Thibs would rather play for an owner like Cuban who is willing to go over the luxury cap to keep and bring in talent.

You got good points.. I'm not trying to be confrontational... I just feel bad when a coach does such a great job and his ownership keeps shipping players out.

Not trying to be confrontational either, but you're relying on tired and repeatedly disproved narratives.

We were one of only 6 teams 2 years ago to pay the luxury tax, and Reinsdorf has always made it clear he'd do so for any competitive team. Does he run his team like the Nets? No. He definitely takes a more cautious approach. But the man is willing to spend when he needs to, and has proved that repeatedly.

As to the bolded, that's just not true. Asik was going to be our backup center and we had just tied Noah into a large contract that had just started. No sane team is going to tie up 15 mil in a hard capped league for a backup player. That wouldn't make sense. As much as I was sad to see Asik go, I was glad we didn't match. It would have screwed us royally.

mightybosstone
01-31-2015, 11:21 AM
If Thibs really does leave, please god don't let him go to Cleveland or OKC. You give a coach that good that much talent, and those teams will completely dominate.

72 Wins
01-31-2015, 12:01 PM
LMAO. The story is hilarious because the article is piecing together bits of speculation over the last few years and making it into "breaking news."