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View Full Version : Has Your Opinion Changed On Kevin Love?



Rivera
01-29-2015, 10:10 AM
We are more than half way through the season. Kevin has always been the man on the wolves and the #1 option. Now he's the third option.

Has your opinion changed on Kevin Love?

Do you rank him higher or lower?
Exceeded expectations? Met them? Or not meeting expectations?

jaydubb
01-29-2015, 10:11 AM
Definitely lowered my opinion on him

diu9leilomo
01-29-2015, 10:16 AM
A white chris bosh with excellent O, but no D

meloman1592
01-29-2015, 10:29 AM
Just last year he was a God that was just surrounded by d league teammates..what now?

koreancabbage
01-29-2015, 10:38 AM
Kevin Love is the system. He will always need that defensive shot blocking center to cover him and shooters around him.

He can still turn it around. I mean he could be the American Dirk and improve his defense over years to be at least average. Get some good defensive players around him and I think you can definitely hide Love's defense.

ichitownclowni
01-29-2015, 10:40 AM
I have never like Love to begin wirh so no lol.

IndyRealist
01-29-2015, 10:40 AM
Remember when people said Pau was washed up and couldn't play anymore? Yeah, he's starting in the all-star game. System matters, and Cleveland is not playing to his strengths.

Avenged
01-29-2015, 10:41 AM
Nope.

Still don't think highly of him.

nycericanguy
01-29-2015, 10:44 AM
just goes to show you how people can get carried away with advanced stats.

Love was the god of PSD for years and many said he was a top 5 player and the #1 PF just because of advanced stats. even though his teams won like 29% of their games...lol

I always said he was David Lee with a 3pt shot... and I was ridiculed... but is he really any better than Lee with a 3pt shot? Heck Lee's numbers in GSW as the #3 option have been better than Love's in CLE FWIW

JasonJohnHorn
01-29-2015, 10:59 AM
I get the feeling like Kyrie is really spoiling Love's game. I'm not sure what is up with the coaching, or with the chemistry between Kyrie and LBJ, but it seems like LBJ likes Kyrie more and that the coach does as well. I think that, in turn, make Love the odd man out and has negatively impact his performance.

He gets fewer shots, so it's harder to get into a rhythm each game. I think most guys will agree that they generally don't shoot the ball as well the first few touches, but since Love is only getting 13 shots instead of 18, he doesn't get a chance to build that rhythm, and that impacts a high-volume scorer more than you might think. It takes special players to be able to just come off the bench and drain shots at a high percentage.

Their points-per-shot is about the same (Love is at 1.29; Kyrie is at 1.3), but Love has proven better at getting to the line, get over 5 free throw attempts with only 13 shots per game, while Kyrie is only getting over 4 fts with 16 shots a game. I realize that shooting threes reduces your trip to the line, but Love is actually shooting more three's than Kyrie, so that percentage of fouls draw is even more in Love's favour, but given that Kyrie is the one driving the lane, he should be picking up more fouls.

Love also gets the ball less, so he isn't able to be the play maker he was developing into in Minny. It's like he only gets the ball to shoot it.


The problem isn't that there isn't enough balls to go around, it's that the coach doesn't seem to recognize Love's ability. And this is huge. Love wants to get his max contract, and when his own coach is saying he's not a max player, and isn't giving him the ball enough, that can only spell one thing: Love is leaving in free agency. Kyrie's shots-to-assist ratio has also increased, which as a point guard is no what you really want to see, especially a point guard who has more options to pass to than he ever has before.

I don't think this demonstrates that Love is not as good as we imagine; I think it is emblematic of the fact that this coach has no clue how to utilize the players he has.

the first option should be LBJ, and then Love, and Kyrie should be given the ball to facilitate, but more and more he's looking to score.


Also... Love's performance hurts this notion that LBJ makes those around him better. When the All-Stars that play with him take a dive in terms of numbers, and percentages (thought Bosh's % went up with LBJ), and role players perform better without James, it does seem to suggest that while James makes TEAMS better, he does not make the players better. If LBJ wants to be compared with Magic and Bird and Duncan, he's going to have to start making those around him better, instead of asking All-Star to make sacrifices so that he can win. I got no problem with guys taking a hit statistically, but Bird and Magic made guys like Worthy and McHale 20+ points-per-game scorers; there weren't making guy who scored 20+ drop into the teens. LBJ is the best player in the league in my book, but I'm not sure he is a great facilitator.

valade16
01-29-2015, 12:08 PM
I would say the answer is a yes for 99% of people on PSD considering the last few years people were arguing he was at or near the best PF in the game and now he is left off most people's Top 5 list.

Tony_Starks
01-29-2015, 12:11 PM
Nope. Thought he was overrated then, not surprised he's exposed on a actual team now.

D-Leethal
01-29-2015, 12:16 PM
Kevin Love is the system. He will always need that defensive shot blocking center to cover him and shooters around him.

He can still turn it around. I mean he could be the American Dirk and improve his defense over years to be at least average. Get some good defensive players around him and I think you can definitely hide Love's defense.

Dirk is a go-to-guy who can create his own shot. Love needs to be set up for all his buckets, he needs to catch and shoot or catch it deep in the paint, he doesn't have the post game or mid range game Dirk has. Dirk is a bonafide championship caliber 1st option, Love doesn't have the tools to ever be that.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-29-2015, 12:23 PM
Love is over rated. Remember that hype train when he grabbed like 25 boards in a game. All the media getting all sassy for them stats. Then Ersan did it next game versus Nets. So its not that hard to pull off. I bet if LeBron left. Love bolt to LA in a heartbeat. LA is his home town and be second fiddle to Kobe.

mRc08
01-29-2015, 12:30 PM
Yes. I thought he would play better with Lebron tbh. I haven't watched too many Cavs games tbh, but his numbers have dropped. While I expected some decline stats wise considering he is the third option now, I think it takes a certain type of player to be an elite "Third Option".

For example, Bosh often was ridiculed the years lebron was on the heat. Now, as the number one option he is playing very well. His game didn't translate well to not having the ball in his hands and not being active. His game went downhill as the limited shots he took a game NEEDED to go in. I think this adds pressure to a player. He needs to be involved more to get rolling in a game.

Some players are capable of adjusting to different roles on the team better. Not every star can just assume a new role and be expected to take on the same level of production, or at least efficiency. Some however can, and I think players that play well off the ball and who have a more well rounded game are better at this. An example for we would be Dirk. He is no longer really the #1 option, at least with how they are playing him. He is still averaging 18 points per game and posting at least similar efficiency numbers. Prior to Rondo, Ellis, and Parsons he needed to create his own shot, shoot three's, and have the offense run through him. Now, he doesn't, yet he still can hit the shots he creates, carry the offense through stretches, and play well off the ball.

Love, like Bosh, hasn't been able to do this well. Its all relative to their previous years performances so a "bad year" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Perhaps its Lebron as being the other "star" these players have paired with. Would Gasol be having the year he is if he was playing with Lebron? He is arguably the second or third option on a given night with the bulls. Rose still dominates the ball majority of the possessions. He has played great off the ball and also in one-on-one post up matchups. Its hard to say with so many different factors, but I think certain player's games lend themselves to taking a back seat more than others.

With this said, unless the Cavs find a way to increase the value of having Love on the floor, you may start to see the urge to get "super teams" diminish in future years. Teams like the Spurs, Mavs (when they won the title), and even Hawks now have shown that carefully constructed teams that are well coach out perform super teams. Each player takes on a role they exceed at, and their deficiencies are masked with the strengths of their teammates. If 3 players on the court can do everything well it create a lot of questions and uncertainties with what each player should do on a given night or possession. Teams that have defined roles don't have this issue. Korver is a great example of this. By himself not a great player, but in the right scenario will out perform the opposing teams matchup every night because he has been put in the right position to excel. It comes down to the GM and coach to get the right players and put them in the right spot. With that said, the Cav's should have found someone more capable of doing this (Coaching wise). The players seem willing to sacrifice some of their game (maybe not Kyrie), and they have more than enough talent. No reason they shouldn't be the top team in the conference honestly.

valade16
01-29-2015, 12:43 PM
Dirk is a go-to-guy who can create his own shot. Love needs to be set up for all his buckets, he needs to catch and shoot or catch it deep in the paint, he doesn't have the post game or mid range game Dirk has. Dirk is a bonafide championship caliber 1st option, Love doesn't have the tools to ever be that.

I remember arguing with Wolves fans when talking about him because they said the Wolves had just so many close losses it skewed how bad their record was compared to how many they should be winning.

My contention was they were losing so many close games because of their personnel, specifically Love, who cannot regularly create his own shot that true #1 options can. So in crunch time nobody can create their own shot and of course they lose.

I was adamant I would take LMA over Love to start a team.

mRc08
01-29-2015, 12:48 PM
I remember arguing with Wolves fans when talking about him because they said the Wolves had just so many close losses it skewed how bad their record was compared to how many they should be winning.

My contention was they were losing so many close games because of their personnel, specifically Love, who cannot regularly create his own shot that true #1 options can. So in crunch time nobody can create their own shot and of course they lose.

I was adamant I would take LMA over Love to start a team.

I agree, I would take LMA as well. If for no other reason than his size, length, and athleticism are just better. He has his faults, sure, but I love his game. As to what you mentioned, I didn't watch enough wolves game to know if this was the case but I know this issue exists with certain "star" players. See Dwight howard during the orlando days. While he was a beast offensively you couldn't always count on him to create his own shot because his post game still wasn't that great/established. He could dunk and over power a lot of people but I still wouldn't trust him in the final possession, especially compared to other players of his caliber. His lack of shooting free throws was the cherry on top. Different types of games and not the best comparison, but just an example of a star player who I wouldn't want closing out a game. I think Blake would face this issue too if he was the sole star player on the clips.

Edit: However, Power forwards can be this player. I would trust a prime KG, LMA, or even Pau to take a last shot or hit a big shot to tie a game. Better at creating their own shots.

jerellh528
01-29-2015, 02:07 PM
Still think love is one of the best pfs in the game. He's not being utilized correctly.

nycericanguy
01-29-2015, 02:41 PM
I at least expected his efficiency to go up playing with Lebron & Irving, but he's shooting 42% this year...

Chronz
01-29-2015, 03:04 PM
Did Ray Allen disappoint anyone when he joined the C's?

Love has definitely disappointed me, he should be doing much better. I get that its not all on him, but hes played better when he came off the bench as a youngster. I think one of Kyrie or he need to be coming off the bench, at the least stagger the lineups so that Love can be featured more often.


I remember arguing with Wolves fans when talking about him because they said the Wolves had just so many close losses it skewed how bad their record was compared to how many they should be winning.

My contention was they were losing so many close games because of their personnel, specifically Love, who cannot regularly create his own shot that true #1 options can. So in crunch time nobody can create their own shot and of course they lose.

I was adamant I would take LMA over Love to start a team.

But it wasn't their offense that was the problem(tho I remember Rubio going scoreless throughout most clutch stretches IIRC), it was the fact that their defense dropped off a cliff, they couldn't stop anyone because the strength of their defense came from forcing turnovers, turnovers happen less frequently as teams set up their offenses more diligently down the stretch of games.

Tony_Starks
01-29-2015, 03:16 PM
When you look the progression of Loves game the only thing that has significantly improved is his range. Defense? Nope. Various post moves, counter moves, face up game? Nope. Even a reliable shot fake, dribble in pull up? Nope. These are things as a big man that he should've been adding to his arsenal, instead he's allowed himself to basically be three point or nothing. And since he can't create on his own he's reliant on someone to get him the ball to get that 3 off....

Minimal
01-29-2015, 03:23 PM
He is not an all star anymore... Guess he dropped in a lot of people eyes lately.

Trwood12
01-29-2015, 03:35 PM
Anyone who has watched a Cavs game knows that he is not being used correctly.

valade16
01-29-2015, 03:46 PM
But it wasn't their offense that was the problem(tho I remember Rubio going scoreless throughout most clutch stretches IIRC), it was the fact that their defense dropped off a cliff, they couldn't stop anyone because the strength of their defense came from forcing turnovers, turnovers happen less frequently as teams set up their offenses more diligently down the stretch of games.

That's not exactly a point in their favor as Kevin Love is terrible defensively as well.

ottograham14
01-29-2015, 04:00 PM
Anyone who has watched a Cavs game knows that he is not being used correctly.

Unfortunately though when you have two ball dominate players in Kyrie and Lebron that isn't going to change. Love has to fit his game around them just like Bosh did with Wade & Lebron. Yes the Cavs could get him more looks down low right now and set better block picks for him but even when he gets low into the defense he is still struggling to finish around the rim. We all know about his defense, but his effort this year is there from time to time such as the LAL game where he was taking big charges down the stretch injured.

Honestly after Indy Feb 6., he probably should sit for that week and then have the All-Star break to take a 2 week hiatus to get his mind clear and rest his back, knee and wrists that have been hurt all year.

Still though he is the 3rd option in this offense and now even the 4th sometimes when JR gets it going from deep. He needs to realize this. The funny thing is that he really isn't lacking in the rebound department the last couple games and is still 3rd/4th in the league in Double/Doubles. As a 3rd option that isn't bad but just like Lebron his expectations from fans were so high that he really couldn't go anywhere else but down joining Kyrie and Lebron moving forward.

Corey
01-29-2015, 04:03 PM
I'll take an "overrated" 17/10 starting PF any day of the week.

Its a learning process for everyone. Kyrie's got his heat, so has Lebron. Love is just the easiest target because of his poor defense and Blatt's mindset of benching him for defense in the 4th.

Chronz
01-29-2015, 04:09 PM
That's not exactly a point in their favor as Kevin Love is terrible defensively as well.

Yeah but hes "terrible" all game. My point was about the difference in the teams success throughout a game vs down the stretch of close games. I guess you could argue that Love's lack of defense forced that team to play a gambling style to offset his liabilities on that end, a style thats not suited for winning close games with defense. Either way, it wasn't Love's inability to "create his own" that doomed them.

valade16
01-29-2015, 04:14 PM
Yeah but hes "terrible" all game. My point was about the difference in the teams success throughout a game vs down the stretch of close games. I guess you could argue that Love's lack of defense forced that team to play a gambling style to offset his liabilities on that end, a style thats not suited for winning close games with defense. Either way, it wasn't Love's inability to "create his own" that doomed them.

:laugh2: true.

Love's inability to create his own shot may not have doomed them, but it certainly didn't help.

ewing
01-29-2015, 04:52 PM
Yes. I still think he is smart player, a excellent passer, a good rebounder, maybe he is not as good a scorer as i thought etc. Skill wise is the guy I thought was for the most part but i thought he would be better and influence the game more then he has. So while i don't think any weaknesses have been exposed to me i do think i defiantly overrated him

JordansBulls
01-29-2015, 05:34 PM
Remember when people said Pau was washed up and couldn't play anymore? Yeah, he's starting in the all-star game. System matters, and Cleveland is not playing to his strengths.

This excellent post!!!

FOBolous
01-29-2015, 06:13 PM
Love is in the same situation that Pau Gasol and Bosh was in. There is only so much you can do when you only get so many touches a game and have to change your playing style to fit in with other stars.

Vee-Rex
01-29-2015, 06:19 PM
I'll take an "overrated" 17/10 starting PF any day of the week.

Its a learning process for everyone. Kyrie's got his heat, so has Lebron. Love is just the easiest target because of his poor defense and Blatt's mindset of benching him for defense in the 4th.

This x50.

Maybe he'll put it together for us and become a little more efficient, who knows. We work with what we have, and the Cavs have the raw talent to win a ring, it's just about chemistry, defense, etc...

No need to panic at all. Haters say trade Love when he has a bad game or two, they say trade Irving when he has a game with no assists, they say trade LBJ because his stats aren't like they were last year, they say fire Blatt because he isn't experienced enough. Blah blah blah, noobness and hate wrapped up all in one is all that is.

I'm hanging onto Love and seeing how it goes.

Redrum187
01-29-2015, 06:20 PM
Remember when people said Pau was washed up and couldn't play anymore? Yeah, he's starting in the all-star game. System matters, and Cleveland is not playing to his strengths.

You are correct that Pau has been playing much better and systems DO matter. Having said that, I think the ONLY reason why Pau is starting is because he moved to the East. He is definitely playing better in a new system, but if the Bulls and Lakers switched geographic locations, Pau wouldn't make the All Star team, much less, starting on it.

I'm incredibly disappointed in Love, even though I never thought he was the best PF. I don't like one-dimensional players.

sheesh
01-29-2015, 06:33 PM
Love is in the same situation that Pau Gasol and Bosh was in. There is only so much you can do when you only get so many touches a game and have to change your playing style to fit in with other stars.

Agreed. If you're role is reduced then you cannot put up numbers like you used to. But if your previous role doesn't translate to winning NBA games than you need to alter your previous role.

KnicksorBust
01-29-2015, 06:51 PM
No.

Chronz
01-29-2015, 07:05 PM
:laugh2: true.

Love's inability to create his own shot may not have doomed them, but it certainly didn't help.

Every player has his strength and warts. I think Love has an underrated ability to create his own, but hes literally seeing none of those same touches anymore, he used to get a healthy dose of face up/elbow touches where he could survey the defense and do more than just chuck. Hes capable of more, I dont know why we dont see more of it. Even last night, while Irving was going for 55, Love shot like 33%. Hes being used as the worlds greatest decoy and to an extent its worked. But I think we can all agree, for Cleveland to reach its full potential as a historically great offense (ala Miami), Love will have to get more involved. To be fair, they are pretty unstopable when the Big3 are clicking, they have one of the better 5 man units in the league.