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WaDe03
01-18-2015, 05:24 PM
Were about halfway through the season now, who are your top 5 players at each position to this point?

PG:
1.Stephen Curry
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Chris Paul
4.John Wall
5. Damian Lillard

SG:
1. James Harden
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Klay Thompson
5. Monta Ellis

SF:
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Rudy Gay
5. Kawhi Leonard

PF:
1. Anthony Davis
2. Blake Griffin
3. LaMarcus Aldridge
4. Pau Gasol
5. Chris Bosh

C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Dwight Howard
4. Nikola Vucevic
5. Hassan Whiteside (Ha)

It's a little shaky at some spots and I'm sure I forgot a couple people I couldn't think of but there's just been so many injuries. Kyle Lowry could've easily made my top 5 PGs but it was hard to decide.

goingfor28
01-18-2015, 05:31 PM
I wouldn't put Kawhi this season only bc he didn't play all yr til a couple nights ago otherwise he's 3rd for me

Wade is not the #2 sg. I take Butler Klay and Monta over him.
LMA prob be huge than Blake this year

Korver got to be in over Gay or melo too imo

dodgersuck
01-18-2015, 05:37 PM
Lillard too low and Wade too high

Chi StateOfMind
01-18-2015, 05:39 PM
Wade number two is a joke. Rudy Gay isn't a top 5 SF. Joakim Noah is a top 5 C.

SeoulBeatz
01-18-2015, 05:51 PM
Wade's playing better than I expected but give me Butler over him THIS year.

Goose17
01-18-2015, 05:51 PM
PG:

1. Stephen Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. John Wall
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Damian Lillard

Honorable Mentions; Teague, Conley, Lowry and Lawson.

SG:

1. James Harden
2. Klay Thompson
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Kyle Korver

SF:

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Gordon Hayward
5. Andre Iguodala

PF:

1. Anthony Davis
2. LaMarcus Aldridge
3. Pau Gasol
4. Paul Millsap
5. Draymond Green (homer vote)

C:

1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Dwight Howard
4. Chris Bosh
5. Nikola Vucevic




All opinions are my own, don't take any offense.

Goose17
01-18-2015, 05:53 PM
I wouldn't put Kawhi this season only bc he didn't play all yr til a couple nights ago otherwise he's 3rd for me


Huh? He's played more than KD so far this year, if you're not including Leonard you can't include KD.

goingfor28
01-18-2015, 05:54 PM
Huh? He's played more than KD so far this year, if you're not including Leonard you can't include KD.
I thought Kawhi been out all year up until a few nights ago?

DanG
01-18-2015, 05:56 PM
1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Lowry
4. CP3
5. Lillard

1. Harden
2. Butler
3. Thompson
4. Wade
5. Ellis

1. LeBron
2. nobody cares
Durant has played only 15 games...

1. AD
2. Blake
3. LMA
4. Gasol
5. Bosh

1. Gasol
2. Cousins
3. Dwight
4. Sacre
5. ???

Goose17
01-18-2015, 06:01 PM
I thought Kawhi been out all year up until a few nights ago?

I'm pretty sure he was active for like the whole of November. And most of December, he only went out around Christmas time. He's definitely played more than Durant, he handed the Dubs an L.

goingfor28
01-18-2015, 06:03 PM
I'm pretty sure he was active for like the whole of November. And most of December, he only went out around Christmas time. He's definitely played more than Durant, he handed the Dubs an L.
Ah, my bad then haha

flea
01-18-2015, 06:10 PM
You're on drugs if you don't think Duncan is top 5 at his position. Basically the only reason the Spurs are where they are in the standings is him. He's the best defender in the league, 2nd among all big men in total RPM, top 20 of all players in whatever box score cumulative stat you like, etc. I mean would anyone really take Bosh, Whiteside, Sacre, or any of these other trash players over Duncan? You don't watch enough basketball if that's the case.

PG: Curry, Paul, Lillard, Lowry, Wall
SG: Harden, Butler, Thompson, Ellis, Korver
SF: Lebron, Draymond Green, Tony Allen, Parsons, Batum
PF: Duncan, Davis, Griffin, Ibaka, Aldridge
C: Gasol, Chandler, Jordan, Noah, Horford

EDIT: Forgot about Wall and Horford. Hate leaving off Conley too, I could go with him over Lillard or Lowry depending on mood.

WaDe03
01-18-2015, 06:16 PM
Whiteside was a joke. I'm sure Sacre was too. Duncan's good he's not the best at his position though but I don't blame you for having him in your top 5. Forgot about Korver.

Goose17
01-18-2015, 06:18 PM
You're on drugs if you don't think Duncan is top 5 at his position. Basically the only reason the Spurs are where they are in the standings is him. He's the best defender in the league, 2nd among all big men in total RPM, top 20 of all players in whatever box score cumulative stat you like, etc. I mean would anyone really take Bosh, Whiteside, Sacre, or any of these other trash players over Duncan? You don't watch enough basketball if that's the case.

PG: Curry, Paul, Lillard, Lowry, Wall
SG: Harden, Butler, Thompson, Ellis, Korver
SF: Lebron, Draymond Green, Tony Allen, Parsons, Batum
PF: Duncan, Davis, Griffin, Ibaka, Aldridge
C: Gasol, Chandler, Jordan, Noah, Horford

EDIT: Forgot about Wall and Horford. Hate leaving off Conley too, I could go with him over Lillard or Lowry depending on mood.

I completely forgot about Duncan, my second favourite player of all time too lol.

WaDe03
01-18-2015, 06:18 PM
If I wasn't messing around and putting Whiteside in my top 5 I would've went with Horford. Whiteside has potential to be up there though I hope he gets there one day.

Legitimate
01-18-2015, 06:40 PM
lol@ wade being rated higher than monta, thats so beyond being a homer :D

FlashBolt
01-18-2015, 06:42 PM
Were about halfway through the season now, who are your top 5 players at each position to this point?

PG:
1.Stephen Curry
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Chris Paul
4.John Wall
5. Damian Lillard

SG:
1. James Harden
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Klay Thompson
5. Monta Ellis

SF:
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Rudy Gay
5. Kawhi Leonard

PF:
1. Anthony Davis
2. Blake Griffin
3. LaMarcus Aldridge
4. Pau Gasol
5. Chris Bosh

C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Dwight Howard
4. Nikola Vucevic
5. Hassan Whiteside (Ha)

It's a little shaky at some spots and I'm sure I forgot a couple people I couldn't think of but there's just been so many injuries. Kyle Lowry could've easily made my top 5 PGs but it was hard to decide.

PG seems good.
SG, I would take Klay second and Butler third. I can't knock Wade because he's been great for Miami with Bron being gone, but those two play elite defense. Wade plays average.
SF, I'm going with LeBron, KD, Melo, Gay, and Hayward. There is zero reason for Kawhi to be there. Also, KD gets a lot of knock for missing games but he has certainly played enough to warrant this position.. He's fricking KD.. I'm taking him any day over anyone not named LeBron.
PF seems good.
C, gotta put DeAndre or Chandler there tbh. Noah hasn't been himself this season.

FraziersKnicks
01-18-2015, 06:44 PM
PG

1. Stephen Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Damian Lillard
4. Russell Westbrook
5. John Wall

SG

1. James Harden
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Klay Thompson
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Monta Ellis

SF

1. LeBron James
2. Carmelo Anthony
3. Rudy Gay
4. Tobias Harris
5. Draymond Green

PF

1. Anthony Davis
2. LaMarcus Aldridge
3. Blake Griffin
4. Pau Gasol
5. Tim Duncan

C

1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Dwight Howard
4. Nikola Vucevic
5. Chris Bosh

WaDe03
01-18-2015, 06:55 PM
lol@ wade being rated higher than monta, thats so beyond being a homer :D

Well Wade leads Monta in every statistic except for FT% and steals and is way more efficient so not really being a homer.

WaDe03
01-18-2015, 06:59 PM
PG seems good.
SG, I would take Klay second and Butler third. I can't knock Wade because he's been great for Miami with Bron being gone, but those two play elite defense. Wade plays average.
SF, I'm going with LeBron, KD, Melo, Gay, and Hayward. There is zero reason for Kawhi to be there. Also, KD gets a lot of knock for missing games but he has certainly played enough to warrant this position.. He's fricking KD.. I'm taking him any day over anyone not named LeBron.
PF seems good.
C, gotta put DeAndre or Chandler there tbh. Noah hasn't been himself this season.

Yea I see what you're saying about the defense thing I'm hoping having a true center in the paint who can block shots will help his defense some like it does for Klay and Butler. Wades scoring has been increasing and him and Whiteside have been connecting on a lot of oops so I see his assist rising as well.

Legitimate
01-18-2015, 07:23 PM
Well Wade leads Monta in every statistic except for FT% and steals and is way more efficient so not really being a homer.

Lol its nothing but empty stats what wade is putting up. Heat don't even have more wins than losses while playing in the East! LOL ...meanwhile monta is leading the charge for a actually half decent team..there is no comparison IMO.

FlashBolt
01-18-2015, 07:37 PM
Lol its nothing but empty stats what wade is putting up. Heat don't even have more wins than losses while playing in the East! LOL ...meanwhile monta is leading the charge for a actually half decent team..there is no comparison IMO.

How the hell are Wade's stats empty? Lmao.. Monta isn't leading crap. He's part of a team that is stacked.. Shut up..

Redrum187
01-18-2015, 07:50 PM
You guys are insane leaving Horford off your top 5 C list. I think maybe one person listed him? Wtf?

Redrum187
01-18-2015, 07:59 PM
1.) Stephen Curry
2.) Chris Paul
3.) Russell Westbrook
4.) Damien Lillard
5.) John Wall

1.) James Harden
2.) Klay Thompson
3.) Jimmy Butler
4.) Monta Ellis
5.) Dwyane Wade

1.) LeBron James
2.) Carmelo Anthony
3.) Gordon Haywood
4.) Rudy Gay
5.) Kevin Durant/Kawhi Leonard (both have great stats but only 16/22 games played this season)

1.) Anthony Davis
2.) Pau Gasol
3.) Lamarcus Aldridge
4.) Tim Duncan
5.) Blake Griffin

1.) Marc Gasol
2.) Al Horford
3.) Demarcus Cousins
4.) Dwight Howard
5.) Tyson Chandler

WaDe03
01-18-2015, 08:11 PM
Lol its nothing but empty stats what wade is putting up. Heat don't even have more wins than losses while playing in the East! LOL ...meanwhile monta is leading the charge for a actually half decent team..there is no comparison IMO.

Swap Ellis with Wade and the Mavericks are even better. Half decent team lol they are stacked as ****. One of those wins was against the Mavs though and we blew them out unfortunately this has been a season full of injuries for us. With half the season left this is nothing a couple of trades couldn't change and I know Riley is looking around and we still have the injury exception for McRoberts.

Hardaway Here
01-18-2015, 08:31 PM
Swap Ellis with Wade and the Mavericks are even better. Half decent team lol they are stacked as ****. One of those wins was against the Mavs though and we blew them out unfortunately this has been a season full of injuries for us. With half the season left this is nothing a couple of trades couldn't change and I know Riley is looking around and we still have the injury exception for McRoberts.

You should know by now Wade doesn't get too much respect here. When he does it's nice, but remember he's been on the decline for the past five years. So his stats will usually go unnoticed. Lol at the empty stat claim. Wins are a stat last I checked and those are far from empty.

Legitimate
01-18-2015, 08:37 PM
Swap Ellis with Wade and the Mavericks are even better. Half decent team lol they are stacked as ****. One of those wins was against the Mavs though and we blew them out unfortunately this has been a season full of injuries for us. With half the season left this is nothing a couple of trades couldn't change and I know Riley is looking around and we still have the injury exception for McRoberts.

damn wade sits out lots wtih injuries, my friend has him on his fantasy bball team and there is always a injured sign besides his name LOL.... if any players took games off to rest like dwade they would be putting up better numbers and percentages. and you even tried to rank dwade over jimmy butler? lmfao there's a reason why the miami is 4 games below .500

EDIT: i see you ranked dwade 2nd best SG in the league, so with the 2nd best SG you managed to get 18 wins half way through the season? and you even ranked bosh high so basicall you got 2 of the best players in the league and you can barely even make the playoffs.....:rolleyes:

AIverson
01-18-2015, 09:12 PM
PG:

1.)Steph Curry
2.)Chris Paul
3.)Russel Westbrook
4.)Lillard
5.)Kyrie Irving

SG:

1.)James Harden
2.)Klay Thompson
3.)Wade
4.)Monta Ellis
5.)Demar Derozan

SF:

1.)Kevin Durant
2.)Lebron James
3.)Carmello
4.)Rudy Gay
5.)Gordon Hayward

PF:
1.)Anthony Davis
2.) LaMarcus Aldridge
3.)Chris Bosh (he's a 4 in my eyes)
4.) Dirk
5.)Blake

C:

1.) Cousins
2.) Mark Gasol
3.) Dwight Howard
4.) Al Jefferson
5.) Deandre Jordan

WaDe03
01-18-2015, 09:42 PM
damn wade sits out lots wtih injuries, my friend has him on his fantasy bball team and there is always a injured sign besides his name LOL.... if any players took games off to rest like dwade they would be putting up better numbers and percentages. and you even tried to rank dwade over jimmy butler? lmfao there's a reason why the miami is 4 games below .500

EDIT: i see you ranked dwade 2nd best SG in the league, so with the 2nd best SG you managed to get 18 wins half way through the season? and you even ranked bosh high so basicall you got 2 of the best players in the league and you can barely even make the playoffs.....:rolleyes:

Wade hasn't sat out a game this season for rest and yes we have 18 wins and as I said before we've had a ridiculous amount of injuries and there's still plenty of time for trades. We've gotten better since Whiteside and were only going to keep getting better. It's pretty obvious you haven't watched the Heat much or know anything about Wade this season if your still bringing up him sitting out for rest.

TheTreys
01-18-2015, 10:41 PM
PG - Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Russel Westbrook, Damian Lillard, John Wall
SG - James Harden, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Kobe Bryant, Monta Ellis
SF - LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Rudy Gay, Gordon Hayward
PF - Anthony Davis, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol
C - Demarcus Cousins, Marc Gasol, Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Nikola Vucevic

Chronz
01-18-2015, 10:44 PM
I put an asterisk next to guys I think would be #1 had they played enough

PG:
1. Stephen Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Russell Westbrook*
4. Damian Lillard
5. Mike Conley

SG:
1. James Harden
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Klay Thompson
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Goran Dragic

SF:
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant*
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. Kyle Korver

PF:
1. Anthony Davis
2. LaMarcus Aldridge
3. Tim Duncan
4. Blake Griffin
5. Pau Gasol

C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Tyson Chandler
4. DJ
5. Dwight Howard

Redrum187
01-18-2015, 11:35 PM
PG - Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Russel Westbrook, Damian Lillard, John Wall
SG - James Harden, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Kobe Bryant, Monta Ellis
SF - LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Rudy Gay, Gordon Hayward
PF - Anthony Davis, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol
C - Demarcus Cousins, Marc Gasol, Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Nikola Vucevic

What's with the Joakim Noah love? He is utter trash this season. No Horford?

SeoulBeatz
01-19-2015, 12:00 AM
PG - Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Russel Westbrook, Damian Lillard, John Wall
SG - James Harden, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Kobe Bryant, Monta Ellis
SF - LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Rudy Gay, Gordon Hayward
PF - Anthony Davis, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol
C - Demarcus Cousins, Marc Gasol, Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah, Nikola Vucevic

no.

BKdoubleStacker
01-19-2015, 12:11 AM
Wade number two is a joke. Rudy Gay isn't a top 5 SF. Joakim Noah is a top 5 C.

Not this year

BKdoubleStacker
01-19-2015, 12:13 AM
I put an asterisk next to guys I think would be #1 had they played enough

PG:
1. Stephen Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Russell Westbrook*
4. Damian Lillard
5. Mike Conley

SG:
1. James Harden
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Klay Thompson
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Goran Dragic

SF:
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant*
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. Kyle Korver

PF:
1. Anthony Davis
2. LaMarcus Aldridge
3. Tim Duncan
4. Blake Griffin
5. Pau Gasol

C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Tyson Chandler
4. DJ
o
5. Dwight Howard

Dragic isn't a sg and he's not top 5 either way

Chronz
01-19-2015, 12:14 AM
Dragic isn't a sg and he's not top 5 either way

Based on wat?

alexander_37
01-19-2015, 12:24 AM
Daryl Morey @dmorey Jan 16

What center anchors 2nd best defense in NBA & holds opponents to under 30% at rim? You guessed it, @DwightHoward #NBABallot

Dwight is the best C in the league.

tredigs
01-19-2015, 12:54 AM
I'm just going to rank them from this point in the season forward, I won't dock for time missed due to injury if I don't think it will effect them to close the season. Essentially, who I would want to close the year.

PG:

1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Paul
4. Lillard
5. Wall

SG:

1. Harden
2/3. Klay
2/3. Butler
4. Wade
5. Korver

SF:

1. KD
2. Lebron
3. Kawhi
4. Dray Green (more of a PF but I'll stick him here)
5. Hayward

PF:

1. AD
2. Blake
3. LMA
4. P Gasol
5. Bosh

C:

1. M. Gasol
2. Cousins
3. Howard
4. Duncan
5. Horford

basketfan4life
01-21-2015, 06:54 AM
In a 7 game series, i still take CP3 over Curry.

And i love curry more than cp3.

b_russ
01-21-2015, 08:42 AM
PG: Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, John Wall, Jeff Teague
SG: James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Kyle Korver, Wes Matthews
SF: LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Gordon Hayward, Draymond Green
PF: Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, LaMarcus Aldridge, Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol
C: Marc Gasol, Demarcus Cousins, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan

Difficult to leave off honorable mentions: Damian Lillard, Mike Conley, Kyle Lowry, Monta Ellis, Carmello Anthony, Dwayne Wade, Al Horford

M.I.A.
01-21-2015, 09:09 AM
PG: Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, John Wall, Jeff Teague
SG: James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Kyle Korver, Wes Matthews
SF: LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Gordon Hayward, Draymond Green
PF: Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, LaMarcus Aldridge, Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol
C: Marc Gasol, Demarcus Cousins, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan

Difficult to leave off honorable mentions: Damian Lillard, Mike Conley, Kyle Lowry, Monta Ellis, Carmello Anthony, Dwayne Wade, Al Horford

That's a good list. I would add Paul Millsap to your HMs and go with the rest of it.

YAALREADYKNO
01-21-2015, 10:58 AM
Were about halfway through the season now, who are your top 5 players at each position to this point?

PG:
1.Stephen Curry
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Chris Paul
4.John Wall
5. Damian Lillard

SG:
1. James Harden
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Klay Thompson
5. Monta Ellis

SF:
1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Rudy Gay
5. Kawhi Leonard

PF:
1. Anthony Davis
2. Blake Griffin
3. LaMarcus Aldridge
4. Pau Gasol
5. Chris Bosh

C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Dwight Howard
4. Nikola Vucevic
5. Hassan Whiteside (Ha)

It's a little shaky at some spots and I'm sure I forgot a couple people I couldn't think of but there's just been so many injuries. Kyle Lowry could've easily made my top 5 PGs but it was hard to decide.


Hassan Whiteside? What about Tyson chandler smh

xfhfuhy
01-21-2015, 11:58 AM
Wade's playing better than I expected but give me Butler over him THIS year. http://financenot.com/image/images/40.gifhttp://financenot.com/image/images/23.gif

Legitimate
01-21-2015, 12:11 PM
Hassan Whiteside? What about Tyson chandler smh

he obviously over rating this bad heat team with 3 top 5 players in there positions... there's a reason why there below .500 in a bad eastern conference just struggling to stay in the playoff hunt, haha

nycericanguy
01-21-2015, 12:25 PM
so this is basically just pick the players on the best teams?...lol

Wes Matthews is now better than Wade because he's on a better team.

Draymond Green & Korver are better than Melo because they are on a better team.

I guess Rondo's stock must have SOARED when he got traded to DAL huh?...lol

Winning is important... but don't get carried away... Winning comes down to who you have around you, not how good you are individually.

WaDe03
01-21-2015, 01:18 PM
Hassan Whiteside? What about Tyson chandler smh

It was a joke but I'd have Al Horford there.

WaDe03
01-21-2015, 01:21 PM
so this is basically just pick the players on the best teams?...lol

Wes Matthews is now better than Wade because he's on a better team.

Draymond Green & Korver are better than Melo because they are on a better team.

I guess Rondo's stock must have SOARED when he got traded to DAL huh?...lol

Winning is important... but don't get carried away... Winning comes down to who you have around you, not how good you are individually.

Thank you! Wade may have the most inconsistent supporting cast around him and we can't get rid of injuries with Whiteside now out with a sprained ankle.

WaDe03
01-21-2015, 01:24 PM
he obviously over rating this bad heat team with 3 top 5 players in there positions... there's a reason why there below .500 in a bad eastern conference just struggling to stay in the playoff hunt, haha

I didn't think this many people would take the Whiteside thing serious smh. He's played like 15 games and a lot of those were in scrub minutes before earning his spot. But yes I do believe we have 2 top 5 players at their position but if you want to take Bosh out that's fine because he's inconsistent and soft as hell.

Stunner
01-21-2015, 02:06 PM
Dragic isn't a sg and he's not top 5 either way

Dragic is a SG as long as he's in Phx with those type of guards . He plays 80% of the time at SG . He's in the Ellis mold

b_russ
01-21-2015, 02:31 PM
That's a good list. I would add Paul Millsap to your HMs and go with the rest of it.

Totally spaced it. I had a list for each position which he was on and whittled it down to 5 each position and forgot listing Milsap in my honorable mentions.


so this is basically just pick the players on the best teams?...lol

Wes Matthews is now better than Wade because he's on a better team.

Draymond Green & Korver are better than Melo because they are on a better team.

Winning is important... but don't get carried away... Winning comes down to who you have around you, not how good you are individually.

In response to the two bolded, you've got an argument and both Wade and Anthony have been still been top tier players this season and my personal omission of them on my list is not meant to be a disrespect to their success this season nor to say that I'm right and you're wrong. It's only my opinion.

My reason for choosing Green, Korver and Matthews boils down to overall production, impact and efficiency that they've shown so far this season. All three of them can be labeled as "role players" as opposed to Wade and Anthony's star status but what Green, Korver and Matthews have brought to the table tops what the other two have done in my book.

Here's a link for comparison. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=wadedw01&y2=2015&p2=anthoca01&y3=2015&p3=korveky01&y4=2015&p4=matthwe02&y5=2015&p5=greendr01&p6=) Noticeably, the win shares, usage rate and games played jump out to me and that doesn't include all the intangible things that are hard to see with just numbers.

Chronz
01-21-2015, 03:03 PM
so this is basically just pick the players on the best teams?...lol

Wes Matthews is now better than Wade because he's on a better team.

Draymond Green & Korver are better than Melo because they are on a better team.

I guess Rondo's stock must have SOARED when he got traded to DAL huh?...lol

Winning is important... but don't get carried away... Winning comes down to who you have around you, not how good you are individually.

Hate to sound simplistic but its abit of a sliding scale. Rondo is winning more now but his production is also at a new low. If you watch the game or pay attention to his +/- metrics, his influencing that team mostly with his defensive intensity. Hes more or less the same player is what Im getting at, him winning more is clearly not distinguishing him here.

Melo's stock is down right now tho

M.I.A.
01-21-2015, 03:34 PM
Totally spaced it. I had a list for each position which he was on and whittled it down to 5 each position and forgot listing Milsap in my honorable mentions.

Well, you can tell by my avatar that I might be just a bit partial to Hawks players... :D

nycericanguy
01-21-2015, 04:55 PM
Hate to sound simplistic but its abit of a sliding scale. Rondo is winning more now but his production is also at a new low. If you watch the game or pay attention to his +/- metrics, his influencing that team mostly with his defensive intensity. Hes more or less the same player is what Im getting at, him winning more is clearly not distinguishing him here.

Melo's stock is down right now tho

Being on a winner is a tie breaker for me, not THE deciding factor.

Only on PSD would people rank Wes Matthews and his league average PER over Wade who is putting up 23/6/5 on 50% with a PER near 24.

Or Draymond Green or Korver above Melo just because they are on a better team?

That's just silly.

canefandynasty
01-21-2015, 05:31 PM
Hassan Whiteside will be the best C by this seasons end.

He leads C in both WS/48 and PER, and is perhaps the best defensive C in the league.

J_M_B
01-21-2015, 05:41 PM
PG

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lillard
Wall

SG

Harden
Klay
Butler
Wade
Korver

SF

Durant
LeBron
Kawhi
Melo
Draymond

PF

Davis
Blake
LMA
Bosh
Pau

C

Marc
Cousins
Duncan
Howard
Horford

Vee-Rex
01-21-2015, 06:19 PM
Hassan Whiteside will be the best C by this seasons end.

He leads C in both WS/48 and PER, and is perhaps the best defensive C in the league.

Lol he won't be the best center at the end of the season. DMC would have something to say about that.

Goose17
01-21-2015, 06:22 PM
Hassan Whiteside will be the best C by this seasons end.

He leads C in both WS/48 and PER, and is perhaps the best defensive C in the league.

Are you high?

flea
01-21-2015, 06:31 PM
Being on a winner is a tie breaker for me, not THE deciding factor.

Only on PSD would people rank Wes Matthews and his league average PER over Wade who is putting up 23/6/5 on 50% with a PER near 24.

Or Draymond Green or Korver above Melo just because they are on a better team?

That's just silly.

I'm not as sold on Matthews. He's a fine defensive player and a good shooter, and yeah he can post up smaller guards, but I like a ton of other SGs way ahead of him (especially Danny Green this season, who does all that and more).

But I'll have to disagree on Draymond and Korver. One is probably the best defensive wing currently in the NBA and the other is the most feared shooter east of Curry with an equally high basketball IQ. Both of those guys play 2 ends of the floor as well, though certainly at a much lesser level than what they're known for. Melo is a scorer, period. It's somewhat remarkable that he's having a pretty good offensive season on such a poor team, but those guys are top 3 most important players so far on the 2 best teams in the league.

canefandynasty
01-21-2015, 06:47 PM
Lol he won't be the best center at the end of the season. DMC would have something to say about that.

PER
Whiteside: 26.0
Cousins: 25.8

WS/48
Whiteside: .210
Cousins: .166

TS%
Whiteside: 67%
Cousins: 56%

TRB%
Whiteside: 23.5%
Cousins: 21.6%

BLK%
Whiteside: 11.3%
Cousins: 4.1%

ORTG
Whiteside: 117 (team ORTG 104.4)
Cousins: 106 (team ORTG 106.3)

DRTG
Whiteside: 97 (team DRTG 108.6)
Cousins: 101 (team DRTG 108.4)

canefandynasty
01-21-2015, 06:48 PM
Are you high?

The stats prove it.

canefandynasty
01-21-2015, 07:00 PM
jehovah

Saddletramp
01-21-2015, 07:30 PM
This is going to make me sound like some homer dick, but I haven't seen one person not put Harden as the #1 SG. Kind of makes that Harden/Butler/Thompson/Derozan thread a joke, right?

Goose17
01-21-2015, 07:34 PM
This is going to make me sound like some homer dick, but I haven't seen one person not put Harden as the #1 SG. Kind of makes that Harden/Butler/Thompson/Derozan thread a joke, right?

I just put him #1 because I didn't want to derail the thread. Truth is justin holiday is the best shooting guard in the leagues and the second best is Klay.

if you haven't seen justin play much don't worry. You'll get to see a lot of justin tonight, he usually plays big minutes in the last quarter after we blow teams out during the first three.

nycericanguy
01-21-2015, 07:49 PM
I'm not as sold on Matthews. He's a fine defensive player and a good shooter, and yeah he can post up smaller guards, but I like a ton of other SGs way ahead of him (especially Danny Green this season, who does all that and more).

But I'll have to disagree on Draymond and Korver. One is probably the best defensive wing currently in the NBA and the other is the most feared shooter east of Curry with an equally high basketball IQ. Both of those guys play 2 ends of the floor as well, though certainly at a much lesser level than what they're known for. Melo is a scorer, period. It's somewhat remarkable that he's having a pretty good offensive season on such a poor team, but those guys are top 3 most important players so far on the 2 best teams in the league.

PSD : Where Kyle Korver & Draymond Green are better than Carmelo Anthony happens.

Goose17
01-21-2015, 07:51 PM
Melo would be a great 4th option in Houston if he didn't have such a big contract, could play defense and wasnt a greedy ball hogging chucker.

Saddletramp
01-21-2015, 08:48 PM
I just put him #1 because I didn't want to derail the thread. Truth is justin holiday is the best shooting guard in the leagues and the second best is Klay.

if you haven't seen justin play much don't worry. You'll get to see a lot of justin tonight, he usually plays big minutes in the last quarter after we blow teams out during the first three.

I saw him in a preseason game and he looked legit. Hit everything.

flea
01-21-2015, 08:52 PM
PSD : Where Kyle Korver & Draymond Green are better than Carmelo Anthony happens.

Guess it depends on how you define "better." I take it to mean contributing the most to winning basketball games. Most people would take Carmelo over the other two if they were starting a team from scratch, but that doesn't mean Carmelo is a better basketball player every single year than they are.

Carmelo can't defend offensive-minded wings (whether on or off ball), can't rebound or defend as a big, can't pass much, and isn't overly efficient. Where he is efficient is small-ball lineups, like Lebron, but he kills you defensively and on the boards. He needs a situation like Dirk in '11, where has has a defensive forward who can rebound and shoot next to him and a very good rebounder at the 5. Even then, he's no where near as efficient as Dirk nor as good of a defender.

To me it's like arguing Danny Green vs. Jamal Crawford. One guy puts up points, creates his own shot (which is somehow revered around here, as if playing within a system isn't much more efficient than ISO junk), and does nothing else. The other spreads the floor, passes, and defends 3 positions. For me it's a no-brainer, but a lot of people, especially when Crawford was in his prime, would vehemently disagree.

northpass523
01-21-2015, 09:12 PM
I'm also a homer but Iguodala is not a top 5 small forward. He plays like 20 minutes a game.

valade16
01-22-2015, 10:07 AM
I'm not as sold on Matthews. He's a fine defensive player and a good shooter, and yeah he can post up smaller guards, but I like a ton of other SGs way ahead of him (especially Danny Green this season, who does all that and more).

But I'll have to disagree on Draymond and Korver. One is probably the best defensive wing currently in the NBA and the other is the most feared shooter east of Curry with an equally high basketball IQ. Both of those guys play 2 ends of the floor as well, though certainly at a much lesser level than what they're known for. Melo is a scorer, period. It's somewhat remarkable that he's having a pretty good offensive season on such a poor team, but those guys are top 3 most important players so far on the 2 best teams in the league.

The thing that is funny is people say guys like Draymond and Korver are "better" players than a guy like Carmelo when we all know they are actually not, but what they really mean is those players are better at their role than Carmelo is at his.

Korver is the best off ball 3 point shooting wing in the league. He is the best at that role. Were he in any other role, he would suck at it. He could not be a creator, he could not be a #1 option, he could not be asked to create his own shot, he could not be asked to be a lock down defender. In short, ask him to do anything outside the very specific skillset for which he is amazing at, he would not be good.

That makes him a niche player, a very, very good niche player. But to suggest his one skillset is somehow better than Carmelo's entirety is absurd.

A team of:

PG: Ricky Rubio
SG: Kyle Korver
SF: Draymond Green
PF: Serge Ibaka
C: DeAndre Jordan

all players who are excellent at their assigned role on the team, but are incapable of really doing anything outside of their role, would get crushed by this team:

PG: Kyrie Irving
SG: Kobe Bryant
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: Kevin Love
C: Al Jefferson

All volume shooting #1 (ish) options on underachieving teams. Why? Because the second team is so vastly more talented than the 1st it isn't even funny. It's like saying a shovel is more useful tool on the battlefield than artillery because the shovel perfectly digs the holes you need but the artillery can only get you so close to the target.

valade16
01-22-2015, 10:11 AM
Guess it depends on how you define "better." I take it to mean contributing the most to winning basketball games. Most people would take Carmelo over the other two if they were starting a team from scratch, but that doesn't mean Carmelo is a better basketball player every single year than they are.

Carmelo can't defend offensive-minded wings (whether on or off ball), can't rebound or defend as a big, can't pass much, and isn't overly efficient. Where he is efficient is small-ball lineups, like Lebron, but he kills you defensively and on the boards. He needs a situation like Dirk in '11, where has has a defensive forward who can rebound and shoot next to him and a very good rebounder at the 5. Even then, he's no where near as efficient as Dirk nor as good of a defender.

To me it's like arguing Danny Green vs. Jamal Crawford. One guy puts up points, creates his own shot (which is somehow revered around here, as if playing within a system isn't much more efficient than ISO junk), and does nothing else. The other spreads the floor, passes, and defends 3 positions. For me it's a no-brainer, but a lot of people, especially when Crawford was in his prime, would vehemently disagree.

The problem with this analogy is Korver does one thing well. Maybe 2 if you really want to seperate being able to move off the ball to get his 3 point shot completely different than his 3 point shot. Or put another way, if Korver didn't have his 3 point shot he would be useless. That is the definition of a one trick pony. Carmelo can score from anywhere on the floor, in any way. He actually does rebound. His RPG the last 3 seasons is 7.4, Bron's is 7.1. Are we going to say he can't rebound now?

basketfan4life
01-22-2015, 10:22 AM
Someone should define what is better. Last year OKC blew 20+ points lead to LAC and lose the game. While i give a ton of credit to LAC, Russ definetly ****ed the game up for OKC, denied Durant trough the most crucial minutes and from my view cost OKC the game. I think deep inside Russ believes he is the best player in the game and with their Coach i think Russ will cost more games in the playoffs. And i think he is the most talented PG in the league. But i don't want that best for my team until he proves otherwise.

Curry needs to take his team to round 2 at least for me to put him at the top position.

So yes C. Paul is still the best PG in the league to me.

flea
01-22-2015, 11:06 AM
The problem with this analogy is Korver does one thing well. Maybe 2 if you really want to seperate being able to move off the ball to get his 3 point shot completely different than his 3 point shot. Or put another way, if Korver didn't have his 3 point shot he would be useless. That is the definition of a one trick pony. Carmelo can score from anywhere on the floor, in any way. He actually does rebound. His RPG the last 3 seasons is 7.4, Bron's is 7.1. Are we going to say he can't rebound now?

First, Korver does more than move off ball and shoot. He screens, runs and sets pick and rolls, and defends (something Carmelo is allergic to). He's not a guy you put on your #1, but he's a very good team defender and that more than makes up for his lack of ability on ball.

Second, Carmelo is an adequate rebounder for a 3, and a bad one for a 4. Please don't quote raw stats to me, look at his ORB% and TRB%. Bron is also a below average rebounder for a 4, hence one of the Heat's major weaknesses while he was there. Fortunately the rest of his skillset makes up for it in small ball lineups. Unfortunately, it certainly doesn't this season.

So really all Melo does is score, which is nice and it's hard to find, but how many shooters in NBA history have been as good as Korver? Maybe 10 or so? And most of them were not good enough to play major minutes, like many coaches thought of Korver for many years. There have been plenty of high usage players as or more efficient as Carmelo. So let's not act like his skillset is something ultra-rare - it's not even any more rare than Korver's. It's just, in theory, much easier to build around - which is why I said anyone would take Carmelo starting a team from scratch.

Win shares Korver is killing him this season. You can say it's not his fault the Knicks are bad and that affects his stats, but what about RPM and BPM? BPM Korver has 4.1 to Carmelo's 1.1. RPM it's even worse: Korver is at 5.04 and Carmelo is at 1.36. Korver beat Carmelo 3.26 to 2.75 in RPM last season too. He simply contributes more to winning basketball games than Carmelo does at this point. I think Carmelo sometimes gets underrated here, but Korver has had 1.5 great seasons now and should get his due for it. Just because a guy's skillset doesn't show up in the box score as readily doesn't mean he's always worse.

valade16
01-22-2015, 11:25 AM
First, Korver does more than move off ball and shoot. He screens, runs and sets pick and rolls, and defends (something Carmelo is allergic to). He's not a guy you put on your #1, but he's a very good team defender and that more than makes up for his lack of ability on ball.

Second, Carmelo is an adequate rebounder for a 3, and a bad one for a 4. Please don't quote raw stats to me, look at his ORB% and TRB%. Bron is also a below average rebounder for a 4, hence one of the Heat's major weaknesses while he was there. Fortunately the rest of his skillset makes up for it in small ball lineups. Unfortunately, it certainly doesn't this season.

So really all Melo does is score, which is nice and it's hard to find, but how many shooters in NBA history have been as good as Korver? Maybe 10 or so? And most of them were not good enough to play major minutes, like many coaches thought of Korver for many years. There have been plenty of high usage players as or more efficient as Carmelo. So let's not act like his skillset is something ultra-rare - it's not even any more rare than Korver's. It's just, in theory, much easier to build around - which is why I said anyone would take Carmelo starting a team from scratch.

Win shares Korver is killing him this season. You can say it's not his fault the Knicks are bad and that affects his stats, but what about RPM and BPM? BPM Korver has 4.1 to Carmelo's 1.1. RPM it's even worse: Korver is at 5.04 and Carmelo is at 1.36. Korver beat Carmelo 3.26 to 2.75 in RPM last season too. He simply contributes more to winning basketball games than Carmelo does at this point. I think Carmelo sometimes gets underrated here, but Korver has had 1.5 great seasons now and should get his due for it. Just because a guy's skillset doesn't show up in the box score as readily doesn't mean he's always worse.

He does not run a pick and roll any better than Melo and in fact is only really good at catching and shooting off it because he is not great at getting to the basket. Also, is on ball defense is certainly as bad or worse than Melo's.

As for BPM and DPM, using box score stats is flawed because they are very dependent on the team around him too. If Melo is on the floor the rest of his team still sucks, they're still going to get whooped. That doesn't tell us anything except no matter what combination of Knicks players the Knicks use, they will lose. We already knew that.

And yes, Korver's advanced stats this season are better than Melo's, but are we going to discount the impact of the team on stats? Korver's on an amazing team that is doing very well and his advanced line spikes and we should all believe Korver, at the age of 33 decided to drastically increase his all around game out of nowhere? Isn't it much more likely it's easier to be efficient and good on a great team? Korver's VORP and Win Shares the last 3 seasons haven't been markedly better than Melo's (and averaged out have been worse). Korver is an amazing shooter. That's it.

Here is the most telling part about this though, if you swapped them. If you put Korver on the Knicks they likely do just as worse (and probably lose some more actually) and if you put Melo on the Hawks they likely become title favorites.

Do you seriously think the Hawks would get worse by trading Korver for Carmelo?

nycericanguy
01-22-2015, 11:25 AM
Bron is a below average rebounder... Korver is better than Melo... and Melo is more one dimensional than Korver...

PSD : Advanced stats gone wrong...

flea
01-22-2015, 12:07 PM
He does not run a pick and roll any better than Melo and in fact is only really good at catching and shooting off it because he is not great at getting to the basket. Also, is on ball defense is certainly as bad or worse than Melo's.

Well both are defenders you ideally hide against strong athletes, but Korver moves pretty well off the ball and has good awareness. It shows up in his DRPM and it certainly does in Melo's.


As for BPM and DPM, using box score stats is flawed because they are very dependent on the team around him too. If Melo is on the floor the rest of his team still sucks, they're still going to get whooped. That doesn't tell us anything except no matter what combination of Knicks players the Knicks use, they will lose. We already knew that.

I used adjusted RPM as well, which I think is a pretty good stat for the most part (and I'm usually harsh on ESPN's trash stats like QBR and PER). All of them say Korver is having a better season.

As for raw box score +/-, you'd think Melo's would be even higher considering he has D Leaguers around him. Especially defensively, where some level of awareness can make up for weaknesses. Not so, his defense is still killing him because he's not even as good as people like Acy, Bargniani, etc. Korver on the other hand has a solid bench behind him. Fact is, his already good offensive team is much better when he's on the court. Melo's is only a little less horrible because he just doesn't, and never has, contributed as much to winning basketball games as his box score line says.


And yes, Korver's advanced stats this season are better than Melo's, but are we going to discount the impact of the team on stats? Korver's on an amazing team that is doing very well and his advanced line spikes and we should all believe Korver, at the age of 33 decided to drastically increase his all around game out of nowhere? Isn't it much more likely it's easier to be efficient and good on a great team? Korver's VORP and Win Shares the last 3 seasons haven't been markedly better than Melo's (and averaged out have been worse). Korver is an amazing shooter. That's it.

Sure it's easier to be efficient on a good team. But Korver goes a long way to making his team good. What about last season, when Korver was still outproducing Carmelo? The Hawks had an almost identical record as the Knicks, and yet Korver was more important to his team's success. The Hawks lost their best player and still looked way better than the Knicks did in the playoffs. Why does Carmelo get a pass for that and Korver gets no credit for how hard his team played the Pacers?


Here is the most telling part about this though, if you swapped them. If you put Korver on the Knicks they likely do just as worse (and probably lose some more actually) and if you put Melo on the Hawks they likely become title favorites.

Do you seriously think the Hawks would get worse by trading Korver for Carmelo?

Have I ever said anyone would take Korver over Carmelo starting a team? Absolutely not. Does that mean Carmelo outproduces him every single season they suit up? Once again, no. NBA fans get too obsessed with the star sheen and 25 point games. I like Carmelo, he is a forward that can score inside and out at a pretty efficient rate. But he has serious flaws as a player, those flaws have kept his teams from achieving what they were otherwise capable of.

Korver has his flaws too, but he minimizes them much better. And his major strength shows up more in +/- and advanced stats than it does in the box score. I believe in rewarding players for what they actually do. Let me put it another way:

18 people (including Jhonny Peralta, Ian Kinsler, Michael Brantley, Ben Zobrist, Kyle Seager, and Adam Jones) had a higher WAR total than Miguel last season. Would any reasonable fan take them over Miguel to start a team? Even though I love Zorilla, no they would not. Those guys performed better though, and I think it's perfectly justifiable to say they had better seasons.

valade16
01-22-2015, 12:31 PM
Well both are defenders you ideally hide against strong athletes, but Korver moves pretty well off the ball and has good awareness. It shows up in his DRPM and it certainly does in Melo's.

I used adjusted RPM as well, which I think is a pretty good stat for the most part (and I'm usually harsh on ESPN's trash stats like QBR and PER). All of them say Korver is having a better season.

As for raw box score +/-, you'd think Melo's would be even higher considering he has D Leaguers around him. Especially defensively, where some level of awareness can make up for weaknesses. Not so, his defense is still killing him because he's not even as good as people like Acy, Bargniani, etc. Korver on the other hand has a solid bench behind him. Fact is, his already good offensive team is much better when he's on the court. Melo's is only a little less horrible because he just doesn't, and never has, contributed as much to winning basketball games as his box score line says.

Sure it's easier to be efficient on a good team. But Korver goes a long way to making his team good. What about last season, when Korver was still outproducing Carmelo? The Hawks had an almost identical record as the Knicks, and yet Korver was more important to his team's success. The Hawks lost their best player and still looked way better than the Knicks did in the playoffs. Why does Carmelo get a pass for that and Korver gets no credit for how hard his team played the Pacers?

Have I ever said anyone would take Korver over Carmelo starting a team? Absolutely not. Does that mean Carmelo outproduces him every single season they suit up? Once again, no. NBA fans get too obsessed with the star sheen and 25 point games. I like Carmelo, he is a forward that can score inside and out at a pretty efficient rate. But he has serious flaws as a player, those flaws have kept his teams from achieving what they were otherwise capable of.

Korver has his flaws too, but he minimizes them much better. And his major strength shows up more in +/- and advanced stats than it does in the box score. I believe in rewarding players for what they actually do. Let me put it another way:

18 people (including Jhonny Peralta, Ian Kinsler, Michael Brantley, Ben Zobrist, Kyle Seager, and Adam Jones) had a higher WAR total than Miguel last season. Would any reasonable fan take them over Miguel to start a team? Even though I love Zorilla, no they would not. Those guys performed better though, and I think it's perfectly justifiable to say they had better seasons.

1st Bolded: Kyle Korver was outproducing Melo last season? That is news to me:

PER:
Korver: 13.5
Melo: 24.4

WS:
Korver: 5.9
Melo: 10.7

WS/48:
Korver: .118
Melo: .172

BPM:
Korver: 2.0
Melo: 3.3

VORP:
Korver: 2.4
Melo: 4.0

Carmelo was crushing Korver last season in nearly every advanced metric. And this is my point. On similar teams Melo crushes Korver in impact and importance, but this season Melo is playing with 75% D-League players and Korver is on one of the Top 2 (and most complete) teams and their stats spike and drop accordingly and people assume it's because Carmelo isn't conducive to winning and Korver's is?

As a matter of fact, I don't think a team with Korver on it has gotten further than a team with Melo on it have they? Conference finals for both right?

2nd Bolded: Korver is better at hiding his weaknesses because his role on the team is not as pronounced. LeBron's faililngs will be far more damaging and noticed than Brendan Haywood's because of his importance and role on the team. Carmelo is a #1 option and usually best player on a team. Korver is at best 3rd best player on his team right now and probably 4th. So of course the 4th best players weaknesses will not be as damning as the 1st or 2nd best players. If he fails it's not as big a deal.

And I didn't say when starting a team from scratch, I said if you switched them right now. You think the Hawks with Korver are better than they would be with Carmelo, and if you don't, how can you say Korver is better if by swapping him out with the guy he's better than the team gets better?

flea
01-22-2015, 12:47 PM
Use adjusted RPM, not the raw one on BR. The rest of those box score stats are not what I was talking about. Of course a guy scoring 20+ PPG will have higher PER/WS/etc. Korver edged him last season in RPM, but we're talking about this season where the difference is huge.

This season Korver is the #1 option on his team, if by #1 option you mean the guy that the defense shifts to and that his teammates look for his shot first. I don't believe in any of this #1 option crap because on a real basketball team the #1 option is the guy with the best shot. I'd argue Korver could be as good as 2nd best on his team. It's tough because their starting lineup are all about equally effective, like a real basketball team. But Korver is the reason they're such a good offensive squad, without him they're probably 12th-15th in the league or worse.

As for your hypothetical, I do think the Hawks get worse swapping Melo for Korver right now because so much of their offensive sets are based on Korver's ability. If they had time to change their philosophy completely? I mean who knows. Is Melo going to demand ISO ball? Is he going to continue to be a ballstopper? These things are pointless to consider because it's not going to happen.

I think this debate comes down to what I said at the beginning to the other guy: it depends on how you define better. I define better as a player contributing more to his team winning basketball games. It sounds like you don't believe Korver can ever have a better season than Carmelo, so long as they're both healthy. To me that means one is more talented, but not necessarily better. Maybe better=talented to you, and that's perfectly defensible. But I guess you think Miguel had a better season than Alex Gordon and Jonathan Lucroy every single season he laced up, too. And I just disagree with proposition.

valade16
01-22-2015, 12:59 PM
Use adjusted RPM, not the raw one on BR. The rest of those box score stats are not what I was talking about. Of course a guy scoring 20+ PPG will have higher PER/WS/etc. Korver edged him last season in RPM, but we're talking about this season where the difference is huge.

This season Korver is the #1 option on his team, if by #1 option you mean the guy that the defense shifts to and that his teammates look for his shot first. I don't believe in any of this #1 option crap because on a real basketball team the #1 option is the guy with the best shot. I'd argue Korver could be as good as 2nd best on his team. It's tough because their starting lineup are all about equally effective, like a real basketball team. But Korver is the reason they're such a good offensive squad, without him they're probably 12th-15th in the league or worse.

As for your hypothetical, I do think the Hawks get worse swapping Melo for Korver right now because so much of their offensive sets are based on Korver's ability. If they had time to change their philosophy completely? I mean who knows. Is Melo going to demand ISO ball? Is he going to continue to be a ballstopper? These things are pointless to consider because it's not going to happen.

I think this debate comes down to what I said at the beginning to the other guy: it depends on how you define better. I define better as a player contributing more to his team winning basketball games. It sounds like you don't believe Korver can ever have a better season than Carmelo, so long as they're both healthy. To me that means one is more talented, but not necessarily better. Maybe better=talented to you, and that's perfectly defensible. But I guess you think Miguel had a better season than Alex Gordon and Jonathan Lucroy every single season he laced up, too. And I just disagree with proposition.

First I don't know enough about baseball to comment on that analogy sorry.

Second, Korver has the lowest USG% of every starter on the Hawks. They are designing plays to take advantage of his spacing and shooting, but he is not the cog that makes that offense click. Teague and Milsap/Horford are more important, especially because they allow the spacing that gets Korver open. And I disagree about Korver being the reason their offense is so good. His amazing shooting is certainly why their offense is so efficient, but if you swapped him with any other quality 3 point shooter they would still have a vastly effective offense.

I think Korver can have a better basketball season that Melo, but my point is, just because you have a better season doesn't mean you are a better player. When I go to the gym I have days where I'm better than other players that are clearly better than me, just because I do doesn't mean I'm better, it just means I was more effective at that point.

Is Korver having a better season than Melo this year? Yes he is. But he's not a better player. Why? Because his better season is a result of being on a vastly more stacked team, uninjured, and generally a whole host of factors that absolutely influence how good your stats look and how good you do.


I've played on absolutely terrible teams. When there is no passing or ball movement, nobody who can create their own shot (or score in general), no hustle, no defense, no matter how good you are, you won't play as well as you could. Similarly, I've been on stacked teams where everyone could shoot, everyone moved without the ball, everyone played defense. It makes your job so much easier. And this is coming from a dude who's entire game is based around 3pt shooting.

The true question is: if Korver is better than Melo (or in your terms, more conducive to winning) why wouldn't you take him over Melo when starting a franchise? It makes no sense to say "I want the guy who isn't as good" now does it?

valade16
01-22-2015, 01:06 PM
In fact, I went and looked at Korver's best WS/48 and they were on the:

34-8 Hawks
50-16 Bulls
62-20 Bulls

Outside of completely stacked teams his best WS/48 is .137. That's because Korver is a guy who compliments a strong cast. He excels at his role (excellent 3 point shooter) when there is an excellent team around him that can allow him to get open looks.

You can't even say Atlanta's crazy year is primarily because of Korver either. Every single starter for the Hawks is posting a better PER and BPM. Heck, Teague's statistical rise is greater than Korvers.

Korver is great at what he does. I love him. But he is not a better player than Melo. He is a role player, and that's because outside of his role he isn't very good at much else.

flea
01-22-2015, 01:28 PM
In fact, I went and looked at Korver's best WS/48 and they were on the:

34-8 Hawks
50-16 Bulls
62-20 Bulls

Outside of completely stacked teams his best WS/48 is .137. That's because Korver is a guy who compliments a strong cast. He excels at his role (excellent 3 point shooter) when there is an excellent team around him that can allow him to get open looks.

You can't even say Atlanta's crazy year is primarily because of Korver either. Every single starter for the Hawks is posting a better PER and BPM. Heck, Teague's statistical rise is greater than Korvers.

Korver is great at what he does. I love him. But he is not a better player than Melo. He is a role player, and that's because outside of his role he isn't very good at much else.

You're not reading what I'm saying. Box score stats do not tell you how good Korver is offensively. That's why I used adjusted RPM and, to a lesser extent, BPM. For RPM, Korver leads the Hawks and is 13th overall in the NBA. Do I think Korver is the 13th best player in the NBA? Of course not. But I think he has more than earned top 5 SG status so far this season. Why?

Because Korver is not just any random shooter. Do you really think Wayne Ellington or Jared Dudley would perform just as well in Korver's role? Or even a more rounded shooter like Dunleavy? No way, Korver is a historically good shooter.

Win shares are based on how much your team wins - every player in the league will post their best win share years on teams that win more. That doesn't mean they are better years, it means that those teams won more that year and they contributed heavily to that. This is one of the flaws of WS as a stat. PER is junk, I refuse to participate in a discussion of it on this forum anymore.

And as far as role player designations, you could just as easily call Carmelo a role player because he essentially provides 1 role: high usage scoring. That role just happens to be one of the more rare ones, but so is Korver's. Korver has the same number of seasons ranked in top 200 of 3 point field goals as Peja, and more than guys like Mitch Richmond and Dell Curry, so it's not like he's a Steve Kerr type specialist.

valade16
01-22-2015, 01:37 PM
You're not reading what I'm saying. Box score stats do not tell you how good Korver is offensively. That's why I used adjusted RPM and, to a lesser extent, BPM. For RPM, Korver leads the Hawks and is 13th overall in the NBA. Do I think Korver is the 13th best player in the NBA? Of course not. But I think he has more than earned top 5 SG status so far this season. Why?

Because Korver is not just any random shooter. Do you really think Wayne Ellington or Jared Dudley would perform just as well in Korver's role? Or even a more rounded shooter like Dunleavy? No way, Korver is a historically good shooter.

Win shares are based on how much your team wins - every player in the league will post their best win share years on teams that win more. That doesn't mean they are better years, it means that those teams won more that year and they contributed heavily to that. This is one of the flaws of WS as a stat. PER is junk, I refuse to participate in a discussion of it on this forum anymore.

And as far as role player designations, you could just as easily call Carmelo a role player because he essentially provides 1 role: high usage scoring. That role just happens to be one of the more rare ones, but so is Korver's. Korver has the same number of seasons ranked in top 200 of 3 point field goals as Peja, and more than guys like Mitch Richmond and Dell Curry, so it's not like he's a Steve Kerr type specialist.

You can't discount other stats that are impacted by other factors than solely that persons performance and then use box score stats, even if they are adjusted, they can't adjust to eliminate the fact that 4 other players are on the court at the same time as Korver and factor into the box score. For reference how come he has a better adjusted BPM this year than in years when his team wasn't as good? Because that stat, as all are, is dependent in part on his teammates.

Korver has been great, no doubt about it. But he is not a better player than Carmelo. He is having a better season this year sure, but he is not a better player overall. If you disagree with that we are at an impasse.

FlashBolt
01-22-2015, 03:46 PM
Did someone say Korver is a better player than Melo? Haha. Korver fits a system such like this better than Melo but there is no way anyone with cells would take Korver over Melo.. Melo is the better player but he's clearly not someone who can lead a team as the first option. Korver on the other hand can excel as a role player better than Melo ON a team that doesn't require a high usage player.

WaDe03
01-22-2015, 04:14 PM
Stop with the nonsense. Korver is not better than Melo lol.

nycericanguy
01-22-2015, 04:15 PM
Did someone say Korver is a better player than Melo? Haha. Korver fits a system such like this better than Melo but there is no way anyone with cells would take Korver over Melo.. Melo is the better player but he's clearly not someone who can lead a team as the first option. Korver on the other hand can excel as a role player better than Melo ON a team that doesn't require a high usage player.

i wouldnt say that either, he did it for 11 years winning 60% of his games.

I think the past 2 years he's had such a garbage team that people forget what he did.

But he is kinda hard to build around, if you want to win a title with him as the #1 guy you gotta give him a lot of role playing vets like Dirk had in 2011.

but these kind of "Debates" only happen on PSD where someone is in front of a computer looking at RPM and aRPM and all sorts of ridiculous numbers and then decides Korver & Draymond Green are better than Melo.

If you tell that to former players and guys who have been involved in the game for decades they will laugh at you... even Darly Morey who is a big stats geek was slobbing on Melo to sign in HOU.

FlashBolt
01-22-2015, 04:19 PM
i wouldnt say that either, he did it for 11 years winning 60% of his games.

I think the past 2 years he's had such a garbage team that people forget what he did.

But he is kinda hard to build around, if you want to win a title with him as the #1 guy you gotta give him a lot of role playing vets like Dirk had in 2011.

I guess our definition of leading is different. I never took Melo as a player who could provide leadership and could take over at all facets of the game. Yes, Melo can dig you out of a hole and hit big buckets. But, can he stop the opposing player's best player? Can he create plays for teammates to get them more involved instead of having them iso? I think we all know how minimal Melo's leadership is. For 11 years, Melo has won regular season games and certainly, missing the playoffs just once in his entire career is impressive to some. But, being in a championship contending team is a different level of 1st option. Never once was Melo part of a championship contending team. The closest they got was against the Lakers but no one had their money on Denver. He's just someone who will require more help than other "first options". Which is why I can't put him in the same category as a legit first option such as Westbrook, KD, LeBron, CP3, and Kobe.

nycericanguy
01-22-2015, 04:23 PM
I guess our definition of leading is different. I never took Melo as a player who could provide leadership and could take over at all facets of the game. Yes, Melo can dig you out of a hole and hit big buckets. But, can he stop the opposing player's best player? Can he create plays for teammates to get them more involved instead of having them iso? I think we all know how minimal Melo's leadership is. For 11 years, Melo has won regular season games and certainly, missing the playoffs just once in his entire career is impressive to some. But, being in a championship contending team is a different level of 1st option. Never once was Melo part of a championship contending team. The closest they got was against the Lakers but no one had their money on Denver. He's just someone who will require more help than other "first options". Which is why I can't put him in the same category as a legit first option such as Westbrook, KD, LeBron, CP3, and Kobe.

There are very few two way players in the game, Dirk wasn't stopping the opposing teams best player, neither is Durant or Rose... or many other players not named Lebron.

As for the 2nd bolded... I don't know, it's not like he's had star players around him in his career. CP3 plays with Blake and a great team in general and can't get past the 2nd round.

Lebron had Irving & Love and CLE was under .500 til he got even MORE help.

He's probably more difficult to build around but I would like to see him with at least ONE other star before saying he needs more help than most. Lebron, KD, CP3, WB, Kobe have all had wayyyyy more help than Melo ever has. Especially Lebron. Heck look at Durant he has Reggie, Ibake & WB... all 3 of those guys are better than anything Melo has... and he even had Harden for a few years too!

valade16
01-22-2015, 04:45 PM
I guess our definition of leading is different. I never took Melo as a player who could provide leadership and could take over at all facets of the game. Yes, Melo can dig you out of a hole and hit big buckets. But, can he stop the opposing player's best player? Can he create plays for teammates to get them more involved instead of having them iso? I think we all know how minimal Melo's leadership is. For 11 years, Melo has won regular season games and certainly, missing the playoffs just once in his entire career is impressive to some. But, being in a championship contending team is a different level of 1st option. Never once was Melo part of a championship contending team. The closest they got was against the Lakers but no one had their money on Denver. He's just someone who will require more help than other "first options". Which is why I can't put him in the same category as a legit first option such as Westbrook, KD, LeBron, CP3, and Kobe.

The problem with this definition is you've described like 4 players in the league.

Bron, KD, Curry, maybe AD. Who else meets those insane expectations of a #1? Carmelo is one of the top 10-15players in the league. If he is not fit to be a #1 option then there should be roughly half the league currently lacking a #1 option no?

C the G
01-22-2015, 04:50 PM
1: Curry, Wall, Westy, CP3, Lilliard

2: Harden, Bucketsss, Thompson, Wade, Korver

3: Lebron, Durantula, Melo, Gay, T-Harris

4: AD, Griff, P.Gasol, Duncan, LMA

5: DMC, Howard, M.Gasol, Bosh, NV


Mid Season MVP: The Browski

FlashBolt
01-23-2015, 01:52 AM
The problem with this definition is you've described like 4 players in the league.

Bron, KD, Curry, maybe AD. Who else meets those insane expectations of a #1? Carmelo is one of the top 10-15players in the league. If he is not fit to be a #1 option then there should be roughly half the league currently lacking a #1 option no?

Wade, Tim Duncan, KG, Shaq. I can name more but those were the top 4. Carmelo isn't someone who can lead a team. I think everyone knows that. He's also not someone who can take a team over the top alone -- which is why many said Chicago was a perfect team for him because he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much, he wouldn't have to be as vocal in terms of leadership, he wouldn't have to defend, and he certainly wouldn't be expected to carry a huge load (loads he can't carry). Some players just have the qualities to lead a team, Melo doesn't.

valade16
01-23-2015, 10:03 AM
Wade, Tim Duncan, KG, Shaq. I can name more but those were the top 4. Carmelo isn't someone who can lead a team. I think everyone knows that. He's also not someone who can take a team over the top alone -- which is why many said Chicago was a perfect team for him because he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much, he wouldn't have to be as vocal in terms of leadership, he wouldn't have to defend, and he certainly wouldn't be expected to carry a huge load (loads he can't carry). Some players just have the qualities to lead a team, Melo doesn't.

I assume you're including them in their primes correct? If that is the case including the 4 I listed you have 8 players in the last 15 years of Basketball. Are you saying that for those 15 seasons 22 teams did not have a #1 option?

If that is your definition of a #1 option then Melo not being capable of being a #1 option is nothing to be embarrased about, he is right in line with 99.9% of Basketball players all-time.

Also, if Melo is "not someone who can take a team over the top by himself"... who is? KG never won a title until he teamed up with Pierce and Allen. Bron never won a title until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh. Shaq never won a title without Kobe and/or Wade and Wade never won a title without Shaq/Bron/Bosh.

So when you say "someone who can take a team over the top by himself" who exactly are you talking about?

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-23-2015, 10:36 AM
The stats prove it. Stats prove he only played 17 games. Stats get inflated in small sample size. Also remember more games means not every player can hang onto the averages. Heck scratch off last 10 or 15 games of Knight. Knight was averaging near triple double first month in the league almost with like 22 8 8. He's not now but cause he played a lot of games. Just like Wade for example. He missed ten games if he played them ten extra games would he have kept up the pace? Probably not. That's why injured players are usually disqualified from league stats.

FlashBolt
01-23-2015, 01:28 PM
I assume you're including them in their primes correct? If that is the case including the 4 I listed you have 8 players in the last 15 years of Basketball. Are you saying that for those 15 seasons 22 teams did not have a #1 option?

If that is your definition of a #1 option then Melo not being capable of being a #1 option is nothing to be embarrased about, he is right in line with 99.9% of Basketball players all-time.

Also, if Melo is "not someone who can take a team over the top by himself"... who is? KG never won a title until he teamed up with Pierce and Allen. Bron never won a title until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh. Shaq never won a title without Kobe and/or Wade and Wade never won a title without Shaq/Bron/Bosh.

So when you say "someone who can take a team over the top by himself" who exactly are you talking about?

KG carried a God horrible team. He's certainly a capable first option. KG is one of my favorite players. Anyone who watched him during his prime can attest to his ability to carry teams. Have you seen Carmelo carry a team? Case and point, no. Carmelo is a great player but you never get the sense that a team would win a game because of Carmelo Anthony. You seem to misunderstand what I meant by first option. No one has done it alone.. That's essentially what I am providing you. Carmelo can't do it alone but he needs more help than the occasional Kobe, LeBron, etc. He just doesn't bring much to the table when you consider what everyone else can do. It's true, Bron never won without Wade/Bosh, Shaq never won without Kobe/Wade, Wade never won without Shaq/Bron/Bosh, but aside from Bosh, those guys gave you more of a shot to win than Carmelo could ever do. There are games where Melo goes completely off and his scoring can't be stopped. But what then? Can he defend? Is he going to create plays? Is he going to become a leader? He still hasn't shown any of that. A first option can't be someone who just scores. Name one first option player who has succeeded by just scoring the ball. Even with KD (who was just a scorer earlier in his career), he's become much better at passing and defending, and when Westbrook was out, he was carrying a team by himself. Same with Wade -- who carried a lottery pick team to the playoffs.

valade16
01-23-2015, 02:12 PM
KG carried a God horrible team. He's certainly a capable first option. KG is one of my favorite players. Anyone who watched him during his prime can attest to his ability to carry teams. Have you seen Carmelo carry a team? Case and point, no. Carmelo is a great player but you never get the sense that a team would win a game because of Carmelo Anthony. You seem to misunderstand what I meant by first option. No one has done it alone.. That's essentially what I am providing you. Carmelo can't do it alone but he needs more help than the occasional Kobe, LeBron, etc. He just doesn't bring much to the table when you consider what everyone else can do. It's true, Bron never won without Wade/Bosh, Shaq never won without Kobe/Wade, Wade never won without Shaq/Bron/Bosh, but aside from Bosh, those guys gave you more of a shot to win than Carmelo could ever do. There are games where Melo goes completely off and his scoring can't be stopped. But what then? Can he defend? Is he going to create plays? Is he going to become a leader? He still hasn't shown any of that. A first option can't be someone who just scores. Name one first option player who has succeeded by just scoring the ball. Even with KD (who was just a scorer earlier in his career), he's become much better at passing and defending, and when Westbrook was out, he was carrying a team by himself. Same with Wade -- who carried a lottery pick team to the playoffs.



I see what you're saying now. Yeah, he needs to do more than score to be a leader however I think his ability to do those other things is kind of downplayed because of how much the Knicks have sucked. In Denver he made plays, he rebounded, he defended (occasionally). Of course he's a step below those guys, but I think he could be a #1 option in the league quite easily, he's after all one of the 10 most talented players.

The question is, could he ever win a ring? IDK, everyone you listed is in the HOF and considered one of the Top 20-30 players ever. So if that is the level that you need to be at to win a title, no he could not do that. But it doesn't mean he still can't be a #1 on a winning team, just perhaps not a championship winning team.

nycericanguy
01-23-2015, 02:58 PM
KG carried a God horrible team. He's certainly a capable first option. KG is one of my favorite players. Anyone who watched him during his prime can attest to his ability to carry teams. Have you seen Carmelo carry a team? Case and point, no. Carmelo is a great player but you never get the sense that a team would win a game because of Carmelo Anthony. You seem to misunderstand what I meant by first option. No one has done it alone.. That's essentially what I am providing you. Carmelo can't do it alone but he needs more help than the occasional Kobe, LeBron, etc. He just doesn't bring much to the table when you consider what everyone else can do. It's true, Bron never won without Wade/Bosh, Shaq never won without Kobe/Wade, Wade never won without Shaq/Bron/Bosh, but aside from Bosh, those guys gave you more of a shot to win than Carmelo could ever do. There are games where Melo goes completely off and his scoring can't be stopped. But what then? Can he defend? Is he going to create plays? Is he going to become a leader? He still hasn't shown any of that. A first option can't be someone who just scores. Name one first option player who has succeeded by just scoring the ball. Even with KD (who was just a scorer earlier in his career), he's become much better at passing and defending, and when Westbrook was out, he was carrying a team by himself. Same with Wade -- who carried a lottery pick team to the playoffs.

Wade also "carried MIA to a 15 win season"... and MIA as a team was pretty mediocre during the years when Wade didn't have Bosh & Lebron or Shaq.

Put it like this, Wade & Melo have very similar career winning percentages... despite the fact that Wade spent 4 years playing on a super team, and another 4-5 seasons playing with Shaq... AND playing in the weaker east while Melo was out West most of his career.

The Darkhorse
01-23-2015, 05:40 PM
C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Dwight Howard :shrug:
4. Nikola Vucevic
5. Hassan Whiteside (Ha)



C:
1. Marc Gasol
2. DeMarcus Cousins
3. Nikola Vucevic
4. Al Horford
5. Andre Drummond (homer pick) :worthy:

No way D.Howard is top 5 right now. Have to include Horford. And give some love to 'Dre. Maybe not top 5 this year, but pretty darn close.

WaDe03
01-23-2015, 06:17 PM
Wade also "carried MIA to a 15 win season"... and MIA as a team was pretty mediocre during the years when Wade didn't have Bosh & Lebron or Shaq.

Put it like this, Wade & Melo have very similar career winning percentages... despite the fact that Wade spent 4 years playing on a super team, and another 4-5 seasons playing with Shaq... AND playing in the weaker east while Melo was out West most of his career.

Carried them to a 15 win season when he was injured most of the year and then came back the next season and increased their wins by the most all time in one year because of a single player. You can't carry anyone to anything if you're injured all season.

nycericanguy
01-23-2015, 06:51 PM
Carried them to a 15 win season when he was injured most of the year and then came back the next season and increased their wins by the most all time in one year because of a single player. You can't carry anyone to anything if you're injured all season.

he played over 50 games that year, he shut it down toward the end because the team was awful, just like Melo is going to do this year.

following year MIA was barely above .500, you just made it sound great by saying they increased their wins by the most ever... lol. but that was just because they were so bad the year before.

Sactown
01-23-2015, 06:52 PM
Center: DeMarcus. Boogie, DMC, Big Cuz, Magic Cousins.

FlashBolt
01-23-2015, 06:59 PM
Wade also "carried MIA to a 15 win season"... and MIA as a team was pretty mediocre during the years when Wade didn't have Bosh & Lebron or Shaq.

Put it like this, Wade & Melo have very similar career winning percentages... despite the fact that Wade spent 4 years playing on a super team, and another 4-5 seasons playing with Shaq... AND playing in the weaker east while Melo was out West most of his career.

That Denver team was much better than Wade's team... Also, Wade had a lingering injury that was ten times as worse as Melo and considering Wade came back the year after and posted MVP type numbers and arguably one of the best seasons for a SG, I'd consider the injury a huge issue. Chris Quinn was their fricking starting PG for some time.. Melo had a very good roster at Denver.. Didn't Marcus Camby lead the league in rebounding and was a candidate for DPOY? And we know what Wade can do in the playoffs during his prime.. The dude was LIGHTS OUT.

nycericanguy
01-23-2015, 07:07 PM
That Denver team was much better than Wade's team... Also, Wade had a lingering injury that was ten times as worse as Melo and considering Wade came back the year after and posted MVP type numbers and arguably one of the best seasons for a SG, I'd consider the injury a huge issue. Chris Quinn was their fricking starting PG for some time.. Melo had a very good roster at Denver.. Didn't Marcus Camby lead the league in rebounding and was a candidate for DPOY? And we know what Wade can do in the playoffs during his prime.. The dude was LIGHTS OUT.

DEN had some solid teams, no one's arguing that. But the point is Melo WAS the #1 guy on those teams and his teams were successful. which everyone seems to forget and saying he cant be a #1 on a good team.

Now Melo never had a Shaq or Bosh & Bron of course like Wade... but he still had his teams winning except for these last 2 years where he has all this trash around him.

Like I said, take away the superstars around Wade and see what MIA's record was... mediocre... yet people expect Melo to do it without a star beside him?

Overall Wade has played with much bigger stars around him, and yet like I said both players still have about the same win % for their careers.

Nick O
01-24-2015, 02:28 AM
MVP: Kyle Korver.. Nothing else matters

DreamShaker
01-24-2015, 07:37 AM
PG:
Curry
Westbrook
CP3
Lillard
Wall

HM: Lowry, Kyrie, Teague, Lawson, Conley, Parker, Suns trio

SG:
Harden
Butler
Thompson
Wade
Monta

HM: Oladipo, Danny Green, Derozan

SF:
LeBron
Durant (when he's played)
Melo
Leonard
Korver

HM: Harris, Wiggins, Hayward, Parsons

PF:
Brow
LA
Blake
Pau
Duncan

HM: Green, Randolph, Love, Dirk, Milsap, Monroe, Bosh

C:
Cousins
Gasol
Howard
Hortford
Vucevic

HM: Drummond, Noah, Gobert, Speights