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View Full Version : Cavs win% is 5 times better with Lebron than without. Surprised?



IKnowHoops
01-12-2015, 05:32 PM
Lebron is still the most impactful player from a win and losses standpoint. Surprised?

Goose17
01-12-2015, 05:33 PM
Not really surprising. At all.

Irving has always been overrated (just my opinion, great athlete, great handles, not a great basketball player).

Love is who he is.

Lebron is always going to have a massive impact with that team.

Big Zo
01-12-2015, 05:35 PM
So?

Munkeysuit
01-12-2015, 05:56 PM
Not at all...I think a 10 year old could have known this.

valade16
01-12-2015, 06:09 PM
I feel all these narratives are becoming contradictory.

LeBron joined stacked teams but they suck without him.

Bosh and Love aren't as bad as their numbers indicated in Big 3's but their teams can't win without Bron in the lineup.

The Cavaliers will get it rolling and are one of the best teams in the league but LeBron James is still the best because he's dragging a bad Cavs team.

Does anyone else feel this way?

SeoulBeatz
01-12-2015, 06:10 PM
Your winning percentage is going to suffer without the best player in the league. Pretty simple.

I remember back in Bron's early years where NBA analysts were saying he had the best supporting cast in the league (a team with "all-star" Mo Williams, Varejao, Boobie Gibson, Big Z as the key pieces).

No, Lebron just elevates his teams play. Mo Williams is a useless chucker and Lebron turned him into a friggin All-Star. He is the most dominant player of this generation, people seem to get that twisted for some reason.

FlashBolt
01-12-2015, 06:14 PM
They'll come back in June and claim LeBron has an amazing roster. Love/Irving are great individual players but neither of them have shown that they can win. At the end of the day, LeBron makes this team work. In short, LeBron will be the team in whatever team he is.

Corey
01-12-2015, 06:19 PM
New team, new coach, no chemistry development.

Good luck to whoever faces an angry Lebron in the playoffs.

Vee-Rex
01-12-2015, 06:20 PM
I feel all these narratives are becoming contradictory.

LeBron joined stacked teams but they suck without him.

Bosh and Love aren't as bad as their numbers indicated in Big 3's but their teams can't win without Bron in the lineup.

The Cavaliers will get it rolling and are one of the best teams in the league but LeBron James is still the best because he's dragging a bad Cavs team.

Does anyone else feel this way?

You're absolutely correct.

PSD says: Lebron needs to join stacked teams in order to win.
PSD says: Love + Irving are overrated and suck
PSD says: Cavs suck and LBJ + Love will leave

If the Cavs contend in the East, PSD will say: LBJ needs all-star talent and can't win without an all-star team.

LOL PSD

Hawkeye15
01-12-2015, 06:34 PM
The Cavs offense is 7.8 points per 100 possessions better with him playing, and their defense is 4.1 points per 100 possessions better with him playing. He makes a difference of about 9.4 points per game by himself.

I do find it interesting to watch him enter this new stage. And I am curious as to how this season ends up playing out for the Cavs.

kdspurman
01-12-2015, 06:43 PM
They were struggling even with him there, but his presence is greatly missed of course. Everyone expected them to struggle defensively, and losing Andy V didn't help that part.

I'm surprised they're this bad without him, but it's still a new team, with injuries and a new coach while trying to gel players games/personalities. It's going to take time, and might not see them fully get it together till late in the season, if at all this year. By getting it together, I mean get to an elite level of play consistently on both ends of the court.

IndyRealist
01-12-2015, 07:44 PM
The Cavs offense is 7.8 points per 100 possessions better with him playing, and their defense is 4.1 points per 100 possessions better with him playing. He makes a difference of about 9.4 points per game by himself.

I do find it interesting to watch him enter this new stage. And I am curious as to how this season ends up playing out for the Cavs.

A big part of the differential is also his replacements. Their bench is very thin, and SG is incredibly problematic which could be covered when Lebron is playing.

Jsoul101
01-12-2015, 07:47 PM
Cavs went back to the game plan of ---->>>>> "GIVE LEBRON THE BALL" <<<<-----
Don't understand why Blatt is not fired yet for the performance of the Cavs..

lamzoka
01-12-2015, 07:48 PM
LeBron James with Cavs prior to 2010 - Best record in the NBA for like 3 seasons in the row. NBA finals appearance.

Cavs without LeBron after 2010 - well we all know what happened. 3 #1 overall picks and a 4th overall pick. Missed the playoffs every single season.

Heat with LeBron- 4 NBA finals appearance, 2 Championships.

Heat without LeBron. 5 games under .500 and barely a playoffs contender.


LeBron James by himself is the difference between winning a championship and heading to the lottery.

He will be playing in the 2015 NBA finals. Ya can quote me on this.

Hawkeye15
01-12-2015, 08:10 PM
A big part of the differential is also his replacements. Their bench is very thin, and SG is incredibly problematic which could be covered when Lebron is playing.

sure, but that is why they keep track of the differential.

jerellh528
01-12-2015, 08:30 PM
Lebron is still the most impactful player from a win and losses standpoint. Surprised?

All time on cavs or just for this season? Source?

MTar786
01-12-2015, 11:53 PM
theyre kind of bad with him in the lineup too lol

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 12:53 AM
theyre kind of bad with him in the lineup too lol

But still 5 times worse without him. Any other teams 5 times worse without a player? Relativity is key.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 12:54 AM
All time on cavs or just for this season? Source?

This year.
See Cavs win% with and without him.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 01:00 AM
You're absolutely correct.

PSD says: Lebron needs to join stacked teams in order to win.
PSD says: Love + Irving are overrated and suck
PSD says: Cavs suck and LBJ + Love will leave

If the Cavs contend in the East, PSD will say: LBJ needs all-star talent and can't win without an all-star team.

LOL PSD


I feel all these narratives are becoming contradictory.

LeBron joined stacked teams but they suck without him.

Bosh and Love aren't as bad as their numbers indicated in Big 3's but their teams can't win without Bron in the lineup.

The Cavaliers will get it rolling and are one of the best teams in the league but LeBron James is still the best because he's dragging a bad Cavs team.

Does anyone else feel this way?

These are the glaring hipocricies from the Lebron hate squad. There blind hate relegates them to not caring that they don't make sense though.

Bring The Heat
01-13-2015, 01:39 AM
You're absolutely correct.

PSD says: Lebron needs to join stacked teams in order to win.
PSD says: Love + Irving are overrated and suck
PSD says: Cavs suck and LBJ + Love will leave

If the Cavs contend in the East, PSD will say: LBJ needs all-star talent and can't win without an all-star team.

LOL PSD

LOL get use to it man... When LeBron played for the Heat all you would hear is this team is way too stacked and the most stacked of all time... then later you would hear "wade is trash and bosh is too soft.. The Heat aren't good enough as a team"... flipping back and forth when its convenient and obviously using the first statement when Lebron would win the championship. Many people on this board seem to consistently contradict themselves on a regular basis its hilarious

jerellh528
01-13-2015, 01:48 AM
This year.
See Cavs win% with and without him.

Oh 9 games? Lol, practice all year long and offseason focusing your team to cater to Lebron and he doesn't play. I'd like to see if it continued if kyrie and love got some chemistry longer than 9 games to figure it out, but yes, you're right, facts are facts. Taking away a top 3 player will hurt the team.

More-Than-Most
01-13-2015, 01:58 AM
best player in the world... people finally are realizing just how great he is... Thats why I laugh when people say he has had more talent the the likes of a Jordan or a Kobe... He makes the players around him that much better more so then both of those guys and thus get more out of his teams because of his ability.

PowerHouse
01-13-2015, 02:28 AM
But still 5 times worse without him. Any other teams 5 times worse without a player? Relativity is key.

LMAO at this whole 5 times worse crap. Yea they are worse without Lebron but it only looks this glaring because of the extremely small sample size. We might as well make a thread about how they are 0-4 without Dion Waiters.

More-Than-Most
01-13-2015, 02:37 AM
LMAO at this whole 5 times worse crap. Yea they are worse without Lebron but it only looks this glaring because of the extremely small sample size. We might as well make a thread about how they are 0-4 without Dion Waiters.

except its every single team when they lose him

L8kers4life
01-13-2015, 02:56 AM
OP Did you really need this thread to prove Lebron is an all time great? Everyone knows LeBron is a great player and his teams would win more when he is on the floor than with out.

I do find it funny that the unstoppable Lebron has needed to take 2 weeks off to rest his knee and back. Which would be fine but, he takes his break when the Cavs go on the longest road trip of the year and the team is in shambles. He could have soldiered through the road trip and rested when the schedule eased up a bit. Instead he takes his break when Varejao goes out for the year, Irving and love our battling there own injuries and a huge trade to boot. Timing could have been better, especially since it's just a soreness thing.

jerellh528
01-13-2015, 02:58 AM
OP Did you really need this thread to prove Lebron is an all time great? Everyone knows LeBron is a great player and his teams would win more when he is on the floor than with out.

I do find it funny that the unstoppable Lebron has needed to take 2 weeks off to rest his knee and back. Which would be fine but, he takes his break when the Cavs go on the longest road trip of the year and the team is in shambles. He could have soldiered through the road trip and rested when the schedule eased up a bit. Instead he takes his break when Varejao goes out for the year, Irving and love our battling there own injuries and a huge trade to boot. Timing could have been better, especially since it's just a soreness thing.

Didn't even consider this, lbj is smarter than we think with his agendas

More-Than-Most
01-13-2015, 04:00 AM
Didn't even consider this, lbj is smarter than we think with his agendas

:laugh: really? Do you honestly believe he planned all of this as some mad genius?

Minimal
01-13-2015, 10:41 AM
Cavs look complete garbage without LeBron, I even think those pre Miami Cavs teams would be much better without LeBron than current LeBronless team. Why don't Cavs look for Mike Brown? It worked with Cavs before, why not look at it again? Not saying he is a great coach, but it worked at the time. Blatts offense met NBA Defense and it doesn't work, it worked overseas because overseas players are nowhere near as good at defense as in NBA. And Blatt doesn't bring anything on the defensive end.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:11 PM
OP Did you really need this thread to prove Lebron is an all time great? Everyone knows LeBron is a great player and his teams would win more when he is on the floor than with out.

I do find it funny that the unstoppable Lebron has needed to take 2 weeks off to rest his knee and back. Which would be fine but, he takes his break when the Cavs go on the longest road trip of the year and the team is in shambles. He could have soldiered through the road trip and rested when the schedule eased up a bit. Instead he takes his break when Varejao goes out for the year, Irving and love our battling there own injuries and a huge trade to boot. Timing could have been better, especially since it's just a soreness thing.

:laugh2: This has nothing to do with him being an all time great. This has to do with challenging the narrative of "Lebron not being the most impactful player in the NBA". Even though we both know you knew that...I hope.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 04:23 PM
He is not even remotely close to the most impactful player in the league this season. Statistically, or otherwise. Still hugely impactful, but not close to the most.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 04:29 PM
Go by net offensive/defensive rating, RPM, VORP, Box +/-, whatever you want. Or just watch him play (when he played). He is not up there with the best.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:32 PM
He is not even remotely close to the most impactful player in the league this season. Statistically, or otherwise. Still hugely impactful, but not close to the most.

Who is?

tredigs
01-13-2015, 04:34 PM
Who is?

Curry, Harden, AD, Lillard and CP3 are 5 that immediately come to mind who are vastly above him this season.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:35 PM
Go by net offensive/defensive rating, RPM, VORP, Box +/-, whatever you want. Or just watch him play (when he played). He is not up there with the best.

I gotta see your list bro

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:37 PM
Curry, Harden, AD, Lillard and CP3 are 5 that immediately come to mind who are vastly above him this season.

So your essentially saying, swap Lebron with any of those guys and the Cavs would be better...right?

tredigs
01-13-2015, 04:38 PM
So your essentially saying, swap Lebron with any of those guys and the Cavs would be better...right?

No, what I am saying is that their impact has been far more productive than Lebron. The Cavs have a very solid player in Kyrie Irving who plays the same position as 4 of the players I mentioned. Don't be stupid and try to twist the point.

Feel free to try to prove me wrong. You have no ground to stand on other than the fact that the Cavs have lost without him. That does not mean these aren't L's with him as well (some would be, some would not).

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:39 PM
Curry, Harden, AD, Lillard and CP3 are 5 that immediately come to mind who are vastly above him this season.

And vice versa Swap Bron with any of those players and Bron makes there teams worse...right?

tredigs
01-13-2015, 04:41 PM
And vice versa Swap Bron with any of those players and Bron makes there teams worse...right?
You come off as a kid who's about to cry.

This conversation is over unless you can make a grown man argument and actually want to make a discussion here.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:42 PM
No, what I am saying is that their impact has been far more productive than Lebron. The Cavs have a very solid player in Kyrie Irving who plays the same position as 4 of the players I mentioned. Don't be stupid and try to twist the point.

Feel free to try to prove me wrong. You have no ground to stand on other than the fact that the Cavs have lost without him. That does not mean these aren't L's with him as well (some would be, some would not).

Ok not trying to be stupid, but you have to keep in context the makeup of each team. I doubt all these players your talking about would be as good, or as impactful playing on the Cavs. And Im sure Bron would be an absolute terror playing on Goldenstate. Understand?

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:44 PM
You come off as a kid who's about to cry.

This conversation is over unless you can make a grown man argument and actually want to make a discussion here.

Yet your the only one being insulting. Calm down son.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 04:45 PM
Ok not trying to be stupid, but you have to keep in context the makeup of each team. I doubt all these players your talking about would be as good, or as impactful playing on the Cavs. And Im sure Bron would be an absolute terror playing on Goldenstate. Understand?

It's apples and oranges but to your point -- if Bron was on Golden State and Curry was not, they would be a worse team. He has - in NO statistical measure - the impact of Curry.


Yet your the only one being insulting. Calm down son.
I apologize then. Just stop playing stupid.

Chronz
01-13-2015, 04:51 PM
Lol
This should get very exciting

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:52 PM
As of right now your saying that impact of the players you mentioned is 100% dependent on the team they play for. Impact and production are not the same. I said impact, you brought up production. But seeing as how Lebron beats Lillard in PPG, AST, Reb, and PER, not sure how your coming to conclusions on production either.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 04:56 PM
It's apples and oranges but to your point -- if Bron was on Golden State and Curry was not, they would be a worse team. He has - in NO statistical measure - the impact of Curry.


I apologize then. Just stop playing stupid.

Not playing stupid, but I absolutely believe that none of the guys you mentioned could make the Cavs better than Bron has, and I absolutely believe Bron makes Golden State or any other team better, than any of the players you mentioned. Easily!

tredigs
01-13-2015, 05:00 PM
As of right now your saying that impact of the players you mentioned is 100% dependent on the team they play for. Impact and production are not the same. I said impact, you brought up production. But seeing as how Lebron beats Lillard in PPG, AST, Reb, and PER, not sure how your coming to conclusions on production either.
Don't worry about the semantics. I'm simply talking about on court impact. The whole, "throw X player on X team" without any concept of fit/role, etc is ridiculous. Not even worth discussing nor does it help your point.

But, Lillard? Sure. Because he has him beat and/or crushed in Box +/-, VORP, WinShares, RPM, Offensive Rting, PPS, etc. He's been the better player this season despite Bron having moderately higher counting stats.


Not playing stupid, but I absolutely believe that none of the guys you mentioned could make the Cavs better than Bron has, and I absolutely believe Bron makes Golden State or any other team better, than any of the players you mentioned. Easily!
Well, you're wrong. And the stats vehemently disagree with you.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 05:03 PM
If Bron wants to join the best in the NBA discussion again (for the regular season, at least. I still buy his impact as best in the game or next to it in the playoffs), he needs to come back with a renewed interest in defense (where he is no longer even a positive player on that end), or get better offensively. It's as simple as that.

kdspurman
01-13-2015, 05:28 PM
Not playing stupid, but I absolutely believe that none of the guys you mentioned could make the Cavs better than Bron has, and I absolutely believe Bron makes Golden State or any other team better, than any of the players you mentioned. Easily!

There's something to be said for chemistry and personalities too IMO. lebron as great as he is, changes how the Warriors would play. he and Steph do different things well. I don't think Lebron makes them better than they are or even match the success if he starts the year with them.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 06:00 PM
Not even trying to win an argument here. There are stats that can make arguments either way. I get what your saying, and agree to an extent. Some of the stats for Lillard...like ORTG, I mean, I think Tyson Chandler is the one of the greatest ORTG players of all time, so I don't consider that a tell. But regardless, I respect the opinion, but respectfully disagree.

PowerHouse
01-13-2015, 06:01 PM
Not playing stupid, but I absolutely believe that none of the guys you mentioned could make the Cavs better than Bron has, and I absolutely believe Bron makes Golden State or any other team better, than any of the players you mentioned. Easily!

If you're not playing stupid then why make such a ridiculously absurd comment like this?

AD, Curry and CP3 absolutely crush Lebron in WS/48, VORP, and PER. There is no way Lebron makes the Pelicans, Warriors or Clippers better if it means taking the previously mentioned players out.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 06:07 PM
Don't worry about the semantics. I'm simply talking about on court impact. The whole, "throw X player on X team" without any concept of fit/role, etc is ridiculous. Not even worth discussing nor does it help your point.

But, Lillard? Sure. Because he has him beat and/or crushed in Box +/-, VORP, WinShares, RPM, Offensive Rting, PPS, etc. He's been the better player this season despite Bron having moderately higher counting stats.


Well, you're wrong. And the stats vehemently disagree with you.

Cleveland is a mess, Golden State is a super deep team with great chemistry. The stats would be very different if they switched teams. And back to my same old same old go to...which I may add probably gives strength to your argument...Lebron just doesn't give anywhere near max effort in the regular season. But I think that this team Cleveland, trying to find an identity and comfort zone has more to do with Brons stats not being up to par than his actual effort because he really hasn't given much of an effort during the last two regular seasons either.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 06:09 PM
If you're not playing stupid then why make such a ridiculously absurd comment like this?

AD, Curry and CP3 absolutely crush Lebron in WS/48, VORP, and PER. There is no way Lebron makes the Pelicans, Warriors or Clippers better if it means taking the previously mentioned players out.

Bron is on a new team with all new young players who don't know how to play winning b-ball. Much of this is a product of situation, and that is what you fail to realize.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 06:15 PM
Cleveland is a mess, Golden State is a super deep team with great chemistry. The stats would be very different if they switched teams. And back to my same old same old go to...which I may add probably gives strength to your argument...Lebron just doesn't give anywhere near max effort in the regular season. But I think that this team Cleveland, trying to find an identity and comfort zone has more to do with Brons stats not being up to par than his actual effort because he really hasn't given much of an effort during the last two regular seasons either.

He used to. I'd argue he no longer can. Goes along with the disappearance of his defense. He's 30 now and has a ton of miles on those legs. Not a spring chicken. And no longer the best in the game day in/out like he used to be.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 06:30 PM
I'd just be happy he once again chose the path of least resistance and joined a couple of All Stars in the Eastern Conference man. If he tried this coasting routine in the West, there wouldn't be a post-season uptick to look forward to, as he wouldn't be in it.

FlashBolt
01-13-2015, 06:36 PM
Tredigs is always insulting someone as if his basketball intellect makes him more erect. Seriously dude, what's your issue? It's his opinion vs your opinion. You're not taking into consideration that those 5 players you mentioned are in a fit system that hasn't changed for quite some time. LeBron is coming to an entire new team with a new HC and the two other star players were players who never entered the playoffs and have a knack for horrific defense. I'm not surprised James is suffering a huge drop-off as I expected it but this has more to do with team chemistry than LeBron James. Yes, he's an old 30. Yes, he's probably never going to touch the past three seasons he had with Miami ever again. But, he's still the most impactful player in the game. If he stayed in Miami with the same system/players, would we be seeing this sort of drop from James? Probably not. I have no way of proving it but neither do you. It just seems that you get into an argument with someone 9/10 and when push comes to shove, you seem to resort to name-calling. Real mature.

tredigs
01-13-2015, 06:47 PM
Oh cry me a river. I'm not going to be PC with IknowHoops on the topic of Lebron. He's too much of an over the top die hard fan. This argument dates back to preseason when he created the thread questioning the possibility of Lebron averaging a triple double this season. When somebody can create that thread, they are too lost in their own delusion to be treated with white gloves. I'm not PC, get over it.

jerellh528
01-13-2015, 07:00 PM
Cleveland is a mess, Golden State is a super deep team with great chemistry. The stats would be very different if they switched teams. And back to my same old same old go to...which I may add probably gives strength to your argument...Lebron just doesn't give anywhere near max effort in the regular season. But I think that this team Cleveland, trying to find an identity and comfort zone has more to do with Brons stats not being up to par than his actual effort because he really hasn't given much of an effort during the last two regular seasons either.

I don't buy this one anymore, on the heat after back to back finals, sure. But on a new team going back to his home, I have to think he'd at least try to display his best efforts especially with his team floundering and trying to prove to his home fans and the NBA that he can lead them to success. I just don't think lbj is capable of playing at the level he has before consistently. Is not really about effort.

KnicksorBust
01-13-2015, 07:06 PM
Cleveland is a mess, Golden State is a super deep team with great chemistry. The stats would be very different if they switched teams. And back to my same old same old go to...which I may add probably gives strength to your argument...Lebron just doesn't give anywhere near max effort in the regular season. But I think that this team Cleveland, trying to find an identity and comfort zone has more to do with Brons stats not being up to par than his actual effort because he really hasn't given much of an effort during the last two regular seasons either.

I don't buy this one anymore, on the heat after back to back finals, sure. But on a new team going back to his home, I have to think he'd at least try to display his best efforts especially with his team floundering and trying to prove to his home fans and the NBA that he can lead them to success. I just don't think lbj is capable of playing at the level he has before consistently. Is not really about effort.

I have watched a decent amount of Cavs games and the guy is completely right. Lebron is on autopilot out there especially on D.

jerellh528
01-13-2015, 07:08 PM
I have watched a decent amount of Cavs games and the guy is completely right. Lebron is on autopilot out there especially on D.

What's the point of saving yourself for the playoffs if you don't even make the playoffs. Autopilot? Nah, he just can't do it like he used to

FlashBolt
01-13-2015, 07:20 PM
What's the point of saving yourself for the playoffs if you don't even make the playoffs. Autopilot? Nah, he just can't do it like he used to

Cavs are a lock for the playoffs. They are 1-7 or 1-8 without LeBron. Expect that to change when he's back. Do you really think Cavs are worried about missing the playoffs? LeBron wouldn't be sitting out if it were serious.


I don't buy this one anymore, on the heat after back to back finals, sure. But on a new team going back to his home, I have to think he'd at least try to display his best efforts especially with his team floundering and trying to prove to his home fans and the NBA that he can lead them to success. I just don't think lbj is capable of playing at the level he has before consistently. Is not really about effort.

While it is a bit difficult to tell whether or not it is lack of effort or inability to play, if you have watched any Cavs game, LeBron is coasting. It almost seems as if he is bored with regular season. Even last season, he was relatively coasting along the way. At LeBron's state, you only have to believe that he is interested specifically in the playoffs. You don't get awards for being the best regular season team. As long as they stay healthy and develop some sort of chemistry, this will be a good year for them. I don't see Cleveland winning this season but that's not saying they won't make the Finals. I'm not counting LeBron out in this Eastern conference.. Give Bulls the credit all you want but this is LeBron we're talking about.


Oh cry me a river. I'm not going to be PC with IknowHoops on the topic of Lebron. He's too much of an over the top die hard fan. This argument dates back to preseason when he created the thread questioning the possibility of Lebron averaging a triple double this season. When somebody can create that thread, they are too lost in their own delusion to be treated with white gloves. I'm not PC, get over it.

Yeah, I agree that he is in love with LeBron but there's no reason to start typing "Like a little kid crying" or whatever it was that you typed. You're one of the better posters here but with nefarious posting such as that, it is really unnecessary.

KnicksorBust
01-13-2015, 07:24 PM
I have watched a decent amount of Cavs games and the guy is completely right. Lebron is on autopilot out there especially on D.

What's the point of saving yourself for the playoffs if you don't even make the playoffs. Autopilot? Nah, he just can't do it like he used to

You dont seriously think they could miss the playoffs?

jerellh528
01-13-2015, 07:30 PM
You dont seriously think they could miss the playoffs?

They shouldn't based on their talent, but they are in danger of it which is the point.

PowerHouse
01-13-2015, 08:26 PM
Bron is on a new team with all new young players who don't know how to play winning b-ball. Much of this is a product of situation, and that is what you fail to realize.

:laugh:

Oh yea. Poor Lebron and this horrible situation he is in. Playing in the eastern conference with two guys who he thought were supposed to be "superstars". Its not at all like he chose this team, this situation now is it?

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 10:53 PM
He used to. I'd argue he no longer can. Goes along with the disappearance of his defense. He's 30 now and has a ton of miles on those legs. Not a spring chicken. And no longer the best in the game day in/out like he used to be.

Very good chance of this to an extent. And yes he used to give a 100%. But I believe he is giving 50-60% when maybe his max is 85%.

Chronz
01-13-2015, 10:54 PM
They shouldn't based on their talent, but they are in danger of it which is the point.

If I'm Bron, i don't agree with your opinion. If I'm an objective analyst, the supporting evidence goes heavily against them missing the playoffs, especially since he's coming back within the month. So what exactly would your point be based on?

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 10:57 PM
I'd just be happy he once again chose the path of least resistance and joined a couple of All Stars in the Eastern Conference man. If he tried this coasting routine in the West, there wouldn't be a post-season uptick to look forward to, as he wouldn't be in it.

Not at all.

Noone coasts more than the Spurs organization. If he was on the Spurs he'd get more rest than he does now. And he'd be on a better team. And his coast is proven to be better than 99% of the league's 100% so he'd still absolutely be in the playoffs if he was on any team already going to the playoffs in the west.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 11:02 PM
Oh cry me a river. I'm not going to be PC with IknowHoops on the topic of Lebron. He's too much of an over the top die hard fan. This argument dates back to preseason when he created the thread questioning the possibility of Lebron averaging a triple double this season. When somebody can create that thread, they are too lost in their own delusion to be treated with white gloves. I'm not PC, get over it.

LOLOLOLOL! Dude, just cause I created the thread asking the question doesn't mean I believed it would happen. You got mad at me posting the question. You couldn't even stand the thought of it being asked. LOL! Don't try and act like i believed he would do it and so I'm delusional. I had no delusions, I simply wanted to hear a bunch of internet guys go at it over the subject. You just were way to sensitive on that subject.

KnicksorBust
01-13-2015, 11:04 PM
You dont seriously think they could miss the playoffs?

They shouldn't based on their talent, but they are in danger of it which is the point.

There are moments in debates where someone says something so unrealistic or baits so hard that the discussion must end. For me that moment is here where you say the Cavs are in danger of missing the playoffs.

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 11:08 PM
:laugh:

Oh yea. Poor Lebron and this horrible situation he is in. Playing in the eastern conference with two guys who he thought were supposed to be "superstars". Its not at all like he chose this team, this situation now is it?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh:

Did you miss the point or ignore it?

IKnowHoops
01-13-2015, 11:13 PM
Double Post

tredigs
01-13-2015, 11:14 PM
There are moments in debates where someone says something so unrealistic or baits so hard that the discussion must end. For me that moment is here where you say the Cavs are in danger of missing the playoffs.

Well, I mean, if they lose tonight (which they probably will. Down 8 at the half), they'll be under .500 on the year. Lebron is back.

But, you can't really miss the playoffs in a conference where the 7 seed is 5 games under .500.

jerellh528
01-13-2015, 11:59 PM
If I'm Bron, i don't agree with your opinion. If I'm an objective analyst, the supporting evidence goes heavily against them missing the playoffs, especially since he's coming back within the month. So what exactly would your point be based on?

It's unlikely for them to miss the playoffs based on their confrence, but the fact is they are in danger of missing the playoffs based on their record, unlikely but true. I don't think hey will miss because that confrence is garbage, me sayin that is more to prove a point that I don't buy Lebron coasting this year with all things stacked how they are, after all this isn't Miami where it was proven they could hit back to back finals blah blah blah. This is him on a new team, back in his hometown and they are struggling hard, why would he coast through that? But since that Knicks guy couldn't say anything else against my point, obviously he attacks the one thing I slighly over exaggerated to kinda illustrate where I'm comin from, which was i don't possibly see how a person in james position could possibly try to be on autopilot right now, all things considered.. Playoffs wasn't the main idea. It's basic reading comprehension

PowerHouse
01-14-2015, 12:28 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh:

Did you miss the point or ignore it?

Your "point"? What exactly was that? The crap you spewed about him being on a team with all new young players? That cavs team is actually loaded with veterans all over that roster. The youngest one is Kyrie who is a 4 year vet already.

And even if that point were valid, and Lebron's teammates were all wide-eyed rookies, how the hell does that affect PER or VORP? Those are formulas based on individual performance. So I didnt miss or ignore anything but rather, Im still waiting for a point.

Bostonjorge
01-14-2015, 01:18 AM
Guess it's still not enough.

nickdymez
01-14-2015, 01:26 AM
The Lebron dick suckin is unbelievable

bucketss
01-14-2015, 01:37 AM
The Lebron dick suckin is unbelievable

you should probably take it out than.

IKnowHoops
01-14-2015, 01:40 AM
Lol
This should get very exciting

I just got back man. I'm not mentally ready to disagree that hard yet.

Chronz
01-14-2015, 02:10 AM
It's unlikely for them to miss the playoffs based on their confrence, but the fact is they are in danger of missing the playoffs based on their record, unlikely but true.
Thats the thing, they are no where near in danger, not based on any logical projection nor would any real competitor be so alarmed. Remember just how long it took for Kobe to finally tell D'Antoni to shove his offense where the sun dont shine. Kobe wasn't even in panic mode while several games under .500 in the WEST. Unless your argument is that Bron doesn't know what conference he plays in, I dont see your point.


I don't think hey will miss because that confrence is garbage, me sayin that is more to prove a point that I don't buy Lebron coasting this year with all things stacked how they are, after all this isn't Miami where it was proven they could hit back to back finals blah blah blah. This is him on a new team, back in his hometown and they are struggling hard, why would he coast through that? But since that Knicks guy couldn't say anything else against my point, obviously he attacks the one thing I slighly over exaggerated to kinda illustrate where I'm comin from, which was i don't possibly see how a person in james position could possibly try to be on autopilot right now, all things considered.. Playoffs wasn't the main idea. It's basic reading comprehension
Hes prolly played the most minutes of any 30 year old.... ever. I think hes mastered how to pace himself and hes most definitely coasting. You can see it in his defensive stance and how deferential hes been. We're gonna have to disagree on that and the whole stacked thing but I will only know how far Bron has declined when the playoffs roll around.

PowerHouse
01-14-2015, 02:37 AM
Hes prolly played the most minutes of any 30 year old.... ever.

Prolly? Try not even close.

Lebron is averaging only 37.5 minutes per game. The list is very long of those who have out-done that @ 30 or older. Examples of just a few:

Wilt @ 31 - 46.8
Baylor @ 30 - 41.3
Rick Barry @ 30 - 40.4
Hal Greer @ 32 - 40.4
Ray Allen @ 31 - 40.3
Jerry West @ 30 - 39.2
Kobe Bryant @ 34 - 38.6

tredigs
01-14-2015, 02:45 AM
Prolly? Try not even close.

Lebron is averaging only 37.5 minutes per game. The list is very long of those who have out-done that @ 30 or older. Examples of just a few:

Wilt @ 31 - 46.8
Baylor @ 30 - 41.3
Rick Barry @ 30 - 40.4
Hal Greer @ 32 - 40.4
Ray Allen @ 31 - 40.3
Jerry West @ 30 - 39.2
Kobe Bryant @ 34 - 38.6

He's talking about cumulative minutes throughout their career, and he's right. James has played more NBA minutes than anyone for a player his age.

PowerHouse
01-14-2015, 03:29 AM
He's talking about cumulative minutes throughout their career, and he's right. James has played more NBA minutes than anyone for a player his age.

Oh I see. He hasnt passed KG yet for regular season minutes but including playoffs Im sure thats right.

PowerHouse
01-14-2015, 04:12 AM
Oh I see. He hasnt passed KG yet for regular season minutes but including playoffs Im sure thats right.

As it stands right now Kobe is still ahead in cumulative minutes (reg season and playoffs) but only by ~400. Lebron will blow by that by season's end.

cavsuno
01-14-2015, 02:59 PM
I agree 99% with valade16. Although valade16 says that James is dragging a bad Cavs team, he's correct in saying that to a degree, but not all the Cavs are bad. If my calculations are correct, there are 19 players on the Cavs’ roster, and about 6.3% of them are considered “max” players, (ignore Blatt’s doltish opinion about Love not being a “max” player; just look at Love’s stats and you’ll see Blatt’s brain in neutral currently) and should not count as part of the “bad” portion of the team. Besides, without Lebron, Love was averaging an astronomical point-average and an unreal rebounding average.

When LeBron joined the Heat, Wade AND Bosh's numbers went down...and no one criticized them. Everyone's numbers go down with LeBron on the team, but to no surprise. He's the best in the world and can play all five positions on the floor. But that doesn't mean Love and Irving's lower numbers make them "tolerable" players. Remember, Love had 30 points against the Mavericks and averaged around 20 ppg without James, and Irving had 38 points the other night and averaged 30+ points for 2 consecutive games without James.

For example, this 6.3% that composes the Blatt-detached demeaning statement depriving Love in the mix of "max" players, I believe the undisputed good of Cleveland includes James, Love and Irving. This isn't to say all the other players are terrible. J.R. Smith has been amazing. I think Dellevadova should be replaced, though. I just think the remaining players are not in sync, sometimes including the Big 3 (rarely).

I suppose I’m spoiled with the “Big 3” and somewhat bias, considering that even despite a few games here and there they haven’t all been doing well. Other games having been played, Love and Irving have had chronologically phenomenal games more than not without James in the lineup. But I blame Blatt most of all, especially when he sat out Love for the entire 4th quarter against the Suns, leading James Jones to miss a crucial rebound which could have turned the tide and was a crucial blow to the Cavs.

Because of Blatt’s ineptitude to coach in the NBA, especially with the #1 talented team (arguably) in the NBA, they are under .500 with a lot more to come. Blatt's brain malfunctioning can be derived implicitly from his demoralizing comments, such as his defaming comment regarding Kevin Love on national television. For those who don't know, Blatt emphatically said Love is not a “max” player.

That's fine, but to demean in a malicious way about your own understudy on national T.V. is outrageous and I would not want to play with a coach like that. No wonder their losing...the own coach is trash-talking down to his own players. He directly insults them and demotes Love whose numbers show Blatt's opinion to be doltish.

Yeah, but the numbers without James contradict that bankrupt defaming statement. Unfortunately, the best talented team in the NBA is becoming the worst. What kind of coach would say such hurtful remarks about HIS OWN PLAYER? Moreover, Blatt can’t win with James and/or without him. I cannot believe the Cavs’ management is defending him.

Vinylman
01-14-2015, 03:19 PM
small sample size

doesn't factor in who else was out

doesn't factor in SOS

I am sure the PSD deep throaters are impressed

GCT
01-14-2015, 06:35 PM
Of course not. LeBron is the most efficient player in the league this decade by far.