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ghettosean
01-02-2015, 02:47 PM
I got into a debate about this the other day and I thought I'd ask this question to PSD...

If Lebron doesn't win a championship in Cleveland how does this affect his legacy?

He obviously left Cleveland because he didn't think he had enough help and believed he couldn't win a championship there so he gave up on the Cavs and took his talents to south beach to form a superteam with a top 3 player at the time in (Wade) and on of the best PF's in the league in Bosh. Currently he's come back to the Cavs plays with Love last year probably ranked as a top 5-10 player and one of the best up and coming PG's in Kyrie Irving.

If he can't win one for the Cavs with 2 other superstar players as teammates how will this affect his legacy overall... Does his all time rank lower in your mind or do you keep him where he is currently ranked.

Discuss

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 02:50 PM
if he'd played in Jordan's era he'd be remembered as the greatest player of all-time probably but since he's the first to come along in the era of social media he will ultimately be quite underrated.

%%%%
01-02-2015, 02:54 PM
2 championships, 4 straight Finals appearances (albeit in a weak Eastern Conference), 4 MVP Awards + five top-5 finishes, 23,901 points-scored, 27.4 ppg

Whatever happens from here, his legacy is set, just as Jordan's wasteful Wizards' years didn't hurt his legacy or detract from his Bulls' career.

JV35
01-02-2015, 02:58 PM
if he'd played in Jordan's era he'd be remembered as the greatest player of all-time probably

Well, I don't agree with that.

I'd put it like this:

If Jordan never existed, and LBJ had played between 1984 and 1998 and won 6 titles, LBJ might be remembered as one of the greatest ever.



but since he's the first to come along in the era of social media he will ultimately be quite underrated.

I'd also disagree. The rise of social media has led to the tendency of sports accomplishments (both individual and team) being incredibly overrated.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 03:02 PM
2 championships, 4 straight Finals appearances (albeit in a weak Eastern Conference), 4 MVP Awards + five top-5 finishes, 23,901 points-scored, 27.4 ppg

Whatever happens from here, his legacy is set, just as Jordan's wasteful Wizards' years didn't hurt his legacy or detract from his Bulls' career.

Jordan was 40 years old with 6 rings under his belt when he did the victory lap with the Wizards. In no way shape or form does that compare to a 30 year old player still in his prime with 2 rings. What happens now very much counts towards his legacy, good or bad.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 03:02 PM
if he gets hit by a truck right now and never plays again, top 10 player ever. If he can enjoy a nice decline, and continue piling up numbers and accolades, he will probably enter top 5.

How you perceive him in general, legacy wise, would be an individual decision. But you wouldn't be able to deny his place in the hierarchy of the game number wise.

slaker619
01-02-2015, 03:04 PM
He still gonna be known as a great regardless of how bad Cavs doing they'll improve by next year and everyone will forget like 1st year in MIA(#WADECOUNTY!)

bucketss
01-02-2015, 03:06 PM
irving was never a superstar, i will give love the superstar distinction even though it seems he put up big numbers on a bad team.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 03:06 PM
btw, Irving is a superstar?

%%%%
01-02-2015, 03:08 PM
Jordan was 40 years old with 6 rings under his belt when he did the victory lap with the Wizards. In no way shape or form does that compare to a 30 year old player still in his prime with 2 rings. What happens now very much counts towards his legacy, good or bad.

It's not necessarily about age; it's more about Games Played. LeBron right now has 871 games played. Jordan at his first retirement had 667 games-played. At his second retirment, he had 970 (which LeBron will reach soon). The wasteful Wizards' run pushed Jordan to 1,072.

LeBron's legacy is set.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 03:10 PM
I wouldn't exacty call it a legacy. He's had a good career numbers wise. But he doesnt have a noteworthy legacy and will be quickly forgotten by me shortly after he retires, unless someone brings him up in which case I will remember him for his ring chasing, empty stats, and cowardice on the court and in the public eye.

RowBTrice
01-02-2015, 03:12 PM
"If Lebron doesn't win a championship in Cleveland how does this affect his legacy? "

Overrated. Top 50 player overall, not inside top 10, maybe not even top 20.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 03:20 PM
Jordan was 40 years old with 6 rings under his belt when he did the victory lap with the Wizards. In no way shape or form does that compare to a 30 year old player still in his prime with 2 rings. What happens now very much counts towards his legacy, good or bad.

It's not necessarily about age; it's more about Games Played. LeBron right now has 871 games played. Jordan at his first retirement had 667 games-played. At his second retirment, he had 970 (which LeBron will reach soon). The wasteful Wizards' run pushed Jordan to 1,072.

LeBron's legacy is set.

All games played are not created equal. The fact is when MJ played with the Wiz he was on his last leg while Lebron is barely beginning to show signs of decline. And he had more rings than anybody in the modern basketball era. That's the definition of your legacy being set. Lebron has plenty of career left and more jewelry he needs to ad before I can even begin to put him in that convo....

bucketss
01-02-2015, 03:20 PM
I wouldn't exacty call it a legacy. He's had a good career numbers wise. But he doesnt have a noteworthy legacy and will be quickly forgotten by me shortly after he retires, unless someone brings him up in which case I will remember him for his ring chasing, empty stats, and cowardice on the court and in the public eye.

considering you can't stop talking about him, i doubt he ever leave your thoughts. you live vicariously through his failures and short comings.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 03:23 PM
considering you can't stop talking about him, i doubt he ever leave your thoughts. you live vicariously through his failures and short comings.

He's the hot topic in today's nba, flavor of the week. Of course im going to talk about him when he's brought up in every thread, Funny coming from you actually. But don't presume to think you know who I am or what I'm about because you're very wrong. Aside from my time on psd, lbj enters my mind exactly 0 times per day

OddTwist
01-02-2015, 03:24 PM
Get preform well . This oddtwist Pst
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RLundi
01-02-2015, 03:28 PM
I wouldn't exacty call it a legacy. He's had a good career numbers wise. But he doesnt have a noteworthy legacy and will be quickly forgotten by me shortly after he retires, unless someone brings him up in which case I will remember him for his ring chasing, empty stats, and cowardice on the court and in the public eye.

Your opinion is invalid because you clearly can't see things without being completely biased and subjective.

To suggest LeBron won't be remembered as one of the all-time greats, and at the very least, one of the most polarizing figures in NBA history, invalidates anything you say concerning him.

"He doesn't have a noteworthy legacy" is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever seen on this god-awful website.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 03:33 PM
Your opinion is invalid because you clearly can't see things without being completely biased and subjective.

To suggest LeBron won't be remembered as one of the all-time greats, and at the very least, one of the most polarizing figures in NBA history, invalidates anything you say concerning him.

"He doesn't have a noteworthy legacy" is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever seen on this god-awful website.

Obviously I'm speaking for myself. There's obviously many out there who like James.

bucketss
01-02-2015, 03:35 PM
He's the hot topic in today's nba, flavor of the week. Of course im going to talk about him when he's brought up in every thread, Funny coming from you actually. But don't presume to think you know who I am or what I'm about because you're very wrong. Aside from my time on psd, lbj enters my mind exactly 0 times per day

why is it funny coming from me?

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 03:36 PM
why is it funny coming from me?

Because you're in every single Lebron or kobe thread. There's a reason you were on my ignore list for months

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 03:38 PM
He's the hot topic in today's nba, flavor of the week. Of course im going to talk about him when he's brought up in every thread, Funny coming from you actually. But don't presume to think you know who I am or what I'm about because you're very wrong. Aside from my time on psd, lbj enters my mind exactly 0 times per day

you don't like LeBron at all, so I would guess he will be a total afterthought to you when he retires, which is what I said in my first post. His legacy is up to the individual, it will mean something different to everyone.

Like you, the players I don't/haven't liked, I never think about when they are gone, unless they randomly come up. I never just go to youtube, and look up Zeke videos, I hated him. I don't go look up David Robinson videos, and I will never look up Tim Duncan or Kobe videos when they are gone. Those players will all be an afterthought to me, players I know what they accomplished, but don't care about.

I get your point, and I am sure you understand his legacy to some will be totally different than it is to you..

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 03:44 PM
you don't like LeBron at all, so I would guess he will be a total afterthought to you when he retires, which is what I said in my first post. His legacy is up to the individual, it will mean something different to everyone.

Like you, the players I don't/haven't liked, I never think about when they are gone, unless they randomly come up. I never just go to youtube, and look up Zeke videos, I hated him. I don't go look up David Robinson videos, and I will never look up Tim Duncan or Kobe videos when they are gone. Those players will all be an afterthought to me, players I know what they accomplished, but don't care about.

I get your point, and I am sure you understand his legacy to some will be totally different than it is to you..

Thank you for this post. I agree 100% that legacy be be viewed differently by different people. I'm in the camp that doesn't see him evening having a legacy to speak of at all. Ask yourself what comes to mind when you think of Lebron today? And then ask yourself the same question like 15 years from now, I have to think it will be different and won't be much positive.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 03:46 PM
Thank you for this post. I agree 100% that legacy be be viewed differently by different people. I'm in the camp that doesn't see him evening having a legacy to speak of at all. Ask yourself what comes to mind when you think of Lebron today? And then ask yourself the same question like 15 years from now, I have to think it will be different and won't be much positive.

I have no idea what it will be in 15 years. That is the fun part..

JEDean89
01-02-2015, 03:52 PM
^^^ not true at all, look at how kobe's legacy changed when he won his 2 chips in his early 30's and became known as the next jordan, not just a wannabe. LBJ has imo, 0 chance of going down as the GOAT. Jordan was a better ball player, though not as incredible of a physical specimen as LBJ. He also had the luxury of a perfect career with him getting a top 2 all time coach and a MVP caliber wingman in pippen. Jordan will never be again, sorry people.

bucketss
01-02-2015, 03:55 PM
Because you're in every single Lebron or kobe thread. There's a reason you were on my ignore list for months

actually im rarely in kobe threads, i usually leave one comment at most.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 03:59 PM
^^^ not true at all, look at how kobe's legacy changed when he won his 2 chips in his early 30's and became known as the next jordan, not just a wannabe. LBJ has imo, 0 chance of going down as the GOAT. Jordan was a better ball player, though not as incredible of a physical specimen as LBJ. He also had the luxury of a perfect career with him getting a top 2 all time coach and a MVP caliber wingman in pippen. Jordan will never be again, sorry people.

that is why it is so hard to catch MJ. Not only do you have to be the best individual player, stat wise ever, but your career can't have any hitches. You can't pull a single no show in a finals, or you are done..

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 04:01 PM
that is why it is so hard to catch MJ. Not only do you have to be the best individual player, stat wise ever, but your career can't have any hitches. You can't pull a single no show in a finals, or you are done..

I wonder how come people don't hold his first "retirement" against him. Doesn't that show he might not have the competativness and love for the game as we all thought because he left the game to play baseball? I dunno just a little devils advocate

Ty Fast
01-02-2015, 04:02 PM
if he'd played in Jordan's era he'd be remembered as the greatest player of all-time probably but since he's the first to come along in the era of social media he will ultimately be quite underrated.

What if MJ played in todays game

Sactown
01-02-2015, 04:07 PM
^^^ not true at all, look at how kobe's legacy changed when he won his 2 chips in his early 30's and became known as the next jordan, not just a wannabe. LBJ has imo, 0 chance of going down as the GOAT. Jordan was a better ball player, though not as incredible of a physical specimen as LBJ. He also had the luxury of a perfect career with him getting a top 2 all time coach and a MVP caliber wingman in pippen. Jordan will never be again, sorry people.

The legacy of Jordon, or the perfect public perception never exist again. He was gifted the greatest surroundings a player could ask for, he also played in a time period where everything you did wasn't super over analyzed and your public life wasn't on the front page of every tabloid ...

Even Jordon isn't Jordon .. as a society we tend to turn figures into higher beings once they're gone

JV35
01-02-2015, 04:08 PM
What if MJ played in todays game

Impossible to even speculate.

riconek
01-02-2015, 04:09 PM
"If Lebron doesn't win a championship in Cleveland how does this affect his legacy? "

Overrated. Top 50 player overall, not inside top 10, maybe not even top 20.

This

bucketss
01-02-2015, 04:09 PM
What if MJ played in todays game

he would struggle more with all the athletic defenders #MyOpinion

ghettosean
01-02-2015, 04:20 PM
What if MJ played in todays game

With all the advancement of nutrition, training and medical fields who knows what he would have accomplished. I personally think with the luxury of today's players that he would eat this league alive but that's just my opinion.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 04:22 PM
^^^ not true at all, look at how kobe's legacy changed when he won his 2 chips in his early 30's and became known as the next jordan, not just a wannabe. LBJ has imo, 0 chance of going down as the GOAT. Jordan was a better ball player, though not as incredible of a physical specimen as LBJ. He also had the luxury of a perfect career with him getting a top 2 all time coach and a MVP caliber wingman in pippen. Jordan will never be again, sorry people.

The legacy of Jordon, or the perfect public perception never exist again. He was gifted the greatest surroundings a player could ask for, he also played in a time period where everything you did wasn't super over analyzed and your public life wasn't on the front page of every tabloid ...

Even Jordon isn't Jordon .. as a society we tend to turn figures into higher beings once they're gone

This is true. People pick and choose what part of MJs legacy to remember to make him invincible. For example you always hear 6 finals with no losses but its rarely mentioned how the Pistons and Celtics were bouncing him out of the playoffs for years and it wasnt until they started declining that he started stacking championships...

Draco
01-02-2015, 04:37 PM
This is true. People pick and choose what part of MJs legacy to remember to make him invincible. For example you always hear 6 finals with no losses but its rarely mentioned how the Pistons and Celtics were bouncing him out of the playoffs for years and it wasnt until they started declining that he started stacking championships...

Those are probably the people who never saw him play day in and day out; the casual fans. And the narrative back in the day was always about trying to find skilled front court players. He certainly wasn't gifted anything.

Slug3
01-02-2015, 04:37 PM
he would struggle more with all the athletic defenders #MyOpinion

I don't like these opinins too much. When people say "take this player out of this older generation, and bring them in to todays game". Then most say they would struggle because of bigger players or athleticism or something. Jordan probably would have been more athletic in todays game then he was back then (and he was still pretty good back then as well). He would have all the advancements players in todays game have as well. The only thing that really would have changed for Jordan is he would be in the social media a lot more than back then and more people would probably think he was an jerk.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 04:41 PM
I don't like these opinins too much. When people say "take this player out of this older generation, and bring them in to todays game". Then most say they would struggle because of bigger players or athleticism or something. Jordan probably would have been more athletic in todays game then he was back then (and he was still pretty good back then as well). He would have all the advancements players in todays game have as well. The only thing that really would have changed for Jordan is he would be in the social media a lot more than back then and more people would probably think he was an jerk.

correct. The game is even more suited for super athletic players today. The big plodding big men of the old days would struggle to make the league today.

Draco
01-02-2015, 04:42 PM
The only thing that really would have changed for Jordan is he would be in the social media a lot more than back then and more people would probably think he was an jerk.

And he would have been called 'air jordan' before doing much on court to have earned the name.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 04:44 PM
The social media thing also works both ways. If you're not dumb like Lebron, the high exposure can lead to increases in fan base and new fans. For instance, kd. Many who don't watch basketball still like kd because of his humble attitude and his "you da real mvp" to his momma

JV35
01-02-2015, 04:47 PM
The social media thing also works both ways.
Definitely. It also works in favor of younger players being wildly over-praised and overrated.

Draco
01-02-2015, 04:51 PM
Definitely. It also works in favor of younger players being wildly over-praised and overrated.

Yes, such as Lebron's career path heading towards the GOAT since ~2006. Not so much in hind sight...

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 04:51 PM
The social media thing also works both ways. If you're not dumb like Lebron, the high exposure can lead to increases in fan base and new fans. For instance, kd. Many who don't watch basketball still like kd because of his humble attitude and his "you da real mvp" to his momma

it helps Durant doesn't have a camera up his *** every step he takes...

HoopsDrive
01-02-2015, 05:27 PM
The social media thing also works both ways. If you're not dumb like Lebron, the high exposure can lead to increases in fan base and new fans. For instance, kd. Many who don't watch basketball still like kd because of his humble attitude and his "you da real mvp" to his momma

I'm no fan of how LeBron deals with the media and public in general but KD should be really thankful since he deflects so much of the attention every year. In essence, KD's image is that of the anti-LeBron, quiet and humble kid that doesn't attract a lot of attention for his off-court antics but is still a superstar player. But that image is definitely enhanced by having someone like LeBron to compare to and drawing all the scrutiny.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 05:28 PM
Well, I don't agree with that.

I'd put it like this:

If Jordan never existed, and LBJ had played between 1984 and 1998 and won 6 titles, LBJ might be remembered as one of the greatest ever.




I'd also disagree. The rise of social media has led to the tendency of sports accomplishments (both individual and team) being incredibly overrated.
I agree on team accomplishments but completely disagree on personal achievement. With this much media wick apart our athletes. Iverson and Kobe would have had a rough ride. Antoine Walker would have had like 2 seasons.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 05:29 PM
I'm no fan of how LeBron deals with the media and public in general but KD should be really thankful since he deflects so much of the attention every year. In essence, KD's image is that of the anti-LeBron, quiet and humble kid that doesn't attract a lot of attention for his off-court antics but is still a superstar player. But that image is definitely enhanced by having someone like LeBron to compare to and drawing all the scrutiny.

Very true, good point.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 05:32 PM
Impossible to even speculate.
People should keep that in mind then when trampling on James. Nobody has ever had anything close to this level of scrutiny.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 05:37 PM
The social media thing also works both ways. If you're not dumb like Lebron, the high exposure can lead to increases in fan base and new fans. For instance, kd. Many who don't watch basketball still like kd because of his humble attitude and his "you da real mvp" to his momma
I think Durant is a great kid but he's living on easy street thanks to Lebron

Edit - I see others already pointed that out

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 05:41 PM
I think Durant is a great kid but he's living on easy street thanks to Lebron

Yeah Lebron has made it easier on durant for sure. But durant isn't out there sayin the dumb stuff james is either. He legit has contibuted to his humble guy persona. He magnified it by taking the opportunity to start the water works and give his mother credit for his success as a player. Lebron would mostly say "first off I'd like to thank Lebron, without whom I wouldn't be able to accept this mvp on lebrons behalf, thank you, me." Not literaly but you know hah, he shouts out to the h8rs

ghettosean
01-02-2015, 05:44 PM
People should keep that in mind then when trampling on James. Nobody has ever had anything close to this level of scrutiny.

To be fair the scrutiny came in when he dumped his hometown fans on national tv (which nobody has ever done before either).

PowerHouse
01-02-2015, 05:45 PM
Its unfortunate how Lebron is hitting a decline this young. It took Kobe 5 more years of aging plus a devastating achilles injury to finally put him into a decline.

BTW I realize LBJs numbers are still nice this year but my point is decline, there is no denying the fact that he is in decline and according to his age, should be in his prime right now.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 05:49 PM
Yeah Lebron has made it easier on durant for sure. But durant isn't out there sayin the dumb stuff james is either. He legit has contibuted to his humble guy persona. He magnified it by taking the opportunity to start the water works and give his mother credit for his success as a player. Lebron would mostly say "first off I'd like to thank Lebron, without whom I wouldn't be able to accept this mvp on lebrons behalf, thank you, me." Not literaly but you know hah, he shouts out to the h8rs
And it could be the other way around if they were living in reverse situations for all we know.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 05:52 PM
To be fair the scrutiny came in when he dumped his hometown fans on national tv (which nobody has ever done before either).
He's made a few questionable decisions under circumstances none of us could possibly understand. Let's face it, most of us would look worse if we were under considerable scrutiny.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 05:58 PM
Its unfortunate how Lebron is hitting a decline this young. It took Kobe 5 more years of aging plus a devastating achilles injury to finally put him into a decline.

BTW I realize LBJs numbers are still nice this year but my point is decline, there is no denying the fact that he is in decline and according to his age, should be in his prime right now.

Kobe was clearly on his decline by 31. His body also hadn't taken the punishments LeBron's has by the same age.

jerellh528
01-02-2015, 06:02 PM
I'll take kobe at 34, his last season before injury, over this current james.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 06:14 PM
I'll take kobe at 34, his last season before injury, over this current james.

I wouldn't, and we also need to see the whole season from LeBron to weigh in on that.

PowerHouse
01-02-2015, 06:23 PM
Kobe was clearly on his decline by 31. His body also hadn't taken the punishments LeBron's has by the same age.

Is this a joke? Kobe's 12-13 season @ 34 yrs old is considered by many to be top 3 of his career. Not to mention all the highlight plays from that season (dunking on 2 Nets at once, etc).

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 06:37 PM
Is this a joke? Kobe's 12-13 season @ 34 yrs old is considered by many to be top 3 of his career. Not to mention all the highlight plays from that season (dunking on 2 Nets at once, etc).

highlight plays? Really?

His advance numbers were completely down across the board. His scoring efficiency was very good, because he was drawing a lot of perimeter shooting fouls, but his defense had become average at best, and he was well below his peak from 03-09'.

Even with LeBron's "decline" and obvious uninterested play this year, he has a higher PER, TS%, win numbers across the board, and has obviously been playing in some pain, though that can't be used as an excuse, because we don't let it be an excuse for Kobe and his mangled finger.

But to act like Kobe at age 31, with even less minutes under his belt, wasn't in decline, is false.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 06:46 PM
Kobe was clearly on his decline by 31. His body also hadn't taken the punishments LeBron's has by the same age.

Is this a joke? Kobe's 12-13 season @ 34 yrs old is considered by many to be top 3 of his career. Not to mention all the highlight plays from that season (dunking on 2 Nets at once, etc).

That year was pretty sick, damn that Antoni for running him into the ground.

If you remember him and Hardens numbers were almost identical that year and thats when they started calling Haren the "best" SG in the game. Lol

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 06:49 PM
That year was pretty sick, damn that Antoni for running him into the ground.

If you remember him and Hardens numbers were almost identical that year and thats when they started calling Haren the "best" SG in the game. Lol

it is so depressing how bad the SG position has been the last decade, outside some of the top guys. All the good ones just got old

PowerHouse
01-02-2015, 06:51 PM
highlight plays? Really?

His advance numbers were completely down across the board. His scoring efficiency was very good, because he was drawing a lot of perimeter shooting fouls, but his defense had become average at best, and he was well below his peak from 03-09'.




Down across the board? Really?

I believe TS% and eFG% are still considered advanced stats and Kobe had a career best eFG% that year plus a TS% that was 3rd best in his career.

numba1CHANGsta
01-02-2015, 06:56 PM
LeBrick sucks bottom line

PurpleLynch
01-02-2015, 07:30 PM
I'm not a fan of ranking anymore,but I would say that right now he's still out of the top 10 of all time. At the end of his career he will be in the top 10 for sure,it doesn't matter if he wins other rings or not.

Rain City
01-02-2015, 07:30 PM
id have to say lebron had to be by far and away the best teenager hooper of all time. and his physical prowess has to be only behind wilt and shaq as far as all time players. and lebron added an elite level IQ for the game. i think bc of this people are going to start to diminish his overall legacy as something of a disappointment bc its not going to keep an argument against MJ which ESPN has forced us to obsess about.

thing is, even if this is the start of a drastic decline, he is still an all-time great which shouldn't be considered disappointing at all. most people already put him ahead of bird and magic (i don't). realistically he probably finds a way to win 1 maybe 2 more rings and a couple more top 3 MVP finishes which i think puts him in the kobe, TD tier of all time greats.

Bruno
01-02-2015, 07:30 PM
i think we tip our hats and put him in the wilt/shaq boat. brilliant physicality and career that never gets fully loved or respected due to the mental half not living up to the physical gifts. indisputable top 15 ever, debatable top 10 as of this very moment, in my book.

i kind of like LeBron now. i don't directly root for him, but now that everyone is on this obnoxious Spurs bandwagon ;) i'm rooting for Goliath in my own weird way.

Rain City
01-02-2015, 07:32 PM
PS- if he keeps whoring himself out to win championships will diminish in many people's eyes. he needs to just stay in CLE, he'll always be able to attract talent, next they need to get a championship level coach.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-02-2015, 07:36 PM
1B.

People like to hold on to the certain players and hold everyone else to the same standard as that player, despite being in completely different circumstances. People hold Lebron to the standards of Magic, Bird, or Russell because they won while sticking to their teams, despite the heavy inconsistency between the Lebron's and other legend's situations.

bucketss
01-02-2015, 07:55 PM
I'll take kobe at 34, his last season before injury, over this current james.

the year he had nash/dwight and still couldn't win 50 games?

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 07:57 PM
I'll take kobe at 34, his last season before injury, over this current james.

the year he had nash/dwight and still couldn't win 50 games?

Troll harder. Nash barely played and Dwight was fresh off back surgery and a torn labrum.....

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 08:04 PM
Down across the board? Really?

I believe TS% and eFG% are still considered advanced stats and Kobe had a career best eFG% that year plus a TS% that was 3rd best in his career.

I touched on that. He figured out how, for one season, draw shooting fouls on the perimeter. His PER was much lower, his defense was pretty average at best, and he wasn't attacking the rim any longer. It's called decline for numerous reasons. The years before and after that also reflect what I speak of. By age 31, Kobe was in decline.

TheIlladelph16
01-02-2015, 08:07 PM
We're probably 5 years or more early on this discussion. There's still plenty of story to be written on Lebron James, good or bad.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2015, 08:09 PM
Kobe best seasons always come at the expense of team success

Miltstar
01-02-2015, 08:10 PM
We're probably 5 years or more early on this discussion. There's still plenty of story to be written on Lebron James, good or bad.

Like the mystical resurgence of his hairline!

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 08:17 PM
Kobe best seasons always come at the expense of team success

for the most part, yes.

Bruno
01-02-2015, 08:24 PM
I'll take kobe at 34, his last season before injury, over this current james.


the year he had nash/dwight and still couldn't win 50 games?

are we having a troll off? I didn't get the memo.

although on second look jerellh LBJs WS/48 is shockingly low this season. lets see how he looks in the playoffs before declaring this the new norm.

TheIlladelph16
01-02-2015, 08:25 PM
Like the mystical resurgence of his hairline!

Also his HOF basketball resume.

These conversations are usually had way too early (like this) and that's usually because there's an agenda in place. For better or worse, James is a media lightning rod so people always want to have this conversation whenever there's a bunch of stories focusing on him in a short span like we are seeing now.

Munkeysuit
01-02-2015, 08:34 PM
I'd also disagree. The rise of social media has led to the tendency of sports accomplishments (both individual and team) being incredibly overrated.

Are you serious? the rise of social media has definitely put a dent in how society perceives, well...everything! Sure it gives anyone and everyone a platform to express their opinions but the end result is still and always "does your opinion matter?" The answer to that is NO! we will still rather hold in higher regard, the opinions of sportscasters and sports writers and even those people are constantly scrutinized for their views because social media gives the average joe a voice.
What is overrated? what is underrated? just because more people are now in discussion about a topic doesn't make it overrated lol, even without social media, the very same people will hold those same opinions to be true.

Munkeysuit
01-02-2015, 08:40 PM
You wana know how Lebron's legacy will end up being? just take a look at his children.
His basketball "career" will be held in high regard by those who witnessed his success and failures and will forever be debated by those very same people.
People that have lived in the era of Wilt and Bill Russell still think they are the greatest players they've ever seen and same could be said by Magic, Bird and MJ era people. We are just discussing this for now...in 20 years there will be others and no one will remember Lebron like we do, so putting his future in debate based on the success this young mans accomplished thus far is totally ridiculous.

Munkeysuit
01-02-2015, 08:42 PM
Why are we (as a society) always looking for new ways to break this man down to size?
Haven't we realized that you can't just break people down and rebuild them to your liking, everyone needs to just chill, relax, sit back and enjoy the show.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 08:46 PM
id have to say lebron had to be by far and away the best teenager hooper of all time. and his physical prowess has to be only behind wilt and shaq as far as all time players. and lebron added an elite level IQ for the game. i think bc of this people are going to start to diminish his overall legacy as something of a disappointment bc its not going to keep an argument against MJ which ESPN has forced us to obsess about.

thing is, even if this is the start of a drastic decline, he is still an all-time great which shouldn't be considered disappointing at all. most people already put him ahead of bird and magic (i don't). realistically he probably finds a way to win 1 maybe 2 more rings and a couple more top 3 MVP finishes which i think puts him in the kobe, TD tier of all time greats.

That's pretty much where I have him now, just outside top 10. If he never gets another ring I have him easily top 10 by career end. If he finishes with 4 or more rings then yeah I put him in that Magic, Kobe, Duncan conversation....

bucketss
01-02-2015, 08:59 PM
That's pretty much where I have him now, just outside top 10. If he never gets another ring I have him easily top 10 by career end. If he finishes with 4 or more rings then yeah I put him in that Magic, Kobe, Duncan conversation....

2 rings makes him from being not even top 10, to being on magics level wow. don't you think thats quite a jump. didn't know chips were that important.

mngopher35
01-02-2015, 09:01 PM
Right now Lebron is on an extremely small list based off his ability (athletic and skill combination), accomplishments, and impact/stats. The only player with 2 fmvp not regarded as a top 12ish player by most is Willis Reed, for valid reasons. He is in a group with 4 other all time greats with 4+mvps (wilt, Russell, Kareem, Jordan who some may say are top 4). We all know his stats are also in a very elite group.

Right now his career fits in with the people generally considered top 10 for me but another ring would likely put him on the verge of top 5 consideration (depends on his decline). A ring tends to be slightly less important for me than others as I look at overall impact of a player, but I can't deny that getting a ring in Cleveland would be great for his legacy.

In the end what you make of his legacy comes down to the individual though. Some look at all of the above information and judge a player based off that and context but may place different weight to certain things than I do. Others may value things such as entertainment value or their perception of a player as a person etc.

Cal827
01-02-2015, 09:31 PM
His legacy seems like it's travelling a similar road to Shaq.


Shaq is a likely top 10 player of all time (at least on most players lists). But the one thing that annoyed me throughout his career, is he needed the fans to be on his side for everything. Even when he would go do something terrible or rude, people would let it pass with a smile and occasional witty remark. Hell, I'm starting that he didn't actually work on free throws, and become the GOAT, just so he would be able to get fans to laugh/remember him.

Lebron is a likely top 5 player of all time (possibly top 3). But he seems to worry too much about what people will say after he makes a decision, or makes a comment that is perceived negatively. I just want him to not give a **** and go full GOAT :laugh: cause, I feel that he's holding back.

ILLUSIONIST^248
01-02-2015, 09:42 PM
I wouldn't exacty call it a legacy. He's had a good career numbers wise. But he doesnt have a noteworthy legacy and will be quickly forgotten by me shortly after he retires, unless someone brings him up in which case I will remember him for his ring chasing, empty stats, and cowardice on the court and in the public eye.

.

Draco
01-02-2015, 09:44 PM
If he goes to NY (http://sports-kings.com/95-chance-lebron-james-and-carmelo-anthony-to-play-for-the-knicks-in-2015-2016-says-stephen-a-smith/) his legacy is being the kind of player with the power to go where he wants to go to win. (all of these teams lining up to make room for him for period of time he dictates) That's also almost the shared legacy of the top players in the 2003 draft. Interesting story if that happens. Personally I hope he falls far short.

JordansBulls
01-02-2015, 10:03 PM
btw, Irving is a superstar?

Yes allstar game mvp winner last year.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 10:05 PM
Yes allstar game mvp winner last year.

wow

so Tom Chambers was an all timer, superstar, right?

JordansBulls
01-02-2015, 10:14 PM
wow

so Tom Chambers was an all timer, superstar, right?

Yes

Hawkeye15
01-02-2015, 10:18 PM
Yes

you are interesting

JV35
01-02-2015, 10:21 PM
Are you serious?

I'm always serious.


the rise of social media has definitely put a dent in how society perceives, well...everything! Sure it gives anyone and everyone a platform to express their opinions but the end result is still and always "does your opinion matter?" The answer to that is NO! we will still rather hold in higher regard, the opinions of sportscasters and sports writers and even those people are constantly scrutinized for their views because social media gives the average joe a voice.
What is overrated? what is underrated? just because more people are now in discussion about a topic doesn't make it overrated lol, even without social media, the very same people will hold those same opinions to be true.

The average Joe (or Jane) on social media is just some lifeless, idiotic, narcissist who knows little (if anything) about the subject.

Every time they see a "killer dunk" or see someone go crazy in the playoffs they proclaim them the GOAT.

First and 2nd year athletes become tremendously "over-rated" in the opinions of the great unwashed who contaminate social media.

As far as the opinions of "sportscasters/sportswriters"?

Most of them are just idiots who got a lucky gig--and because the great unwashed exists on social media, the generic clueless idiot will give the "professional opinion" more credence.

In truth, most of these "high-profile writers/sportscasters" hang out on social media and jack every original thought and pass it off as their own.

Anybody who buys into opinions on social media (regardless of the source) needs a serious clue.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-02-2015, 10:45 PM
JB has gone on full troll mode on Lebron ever since he realized Lebron is closing the gap on Jordan. I mean he won't pass Jordan so not sure what you are so worried about. Let the man slide into 2nd place in peace.

bucketss
01-02-2015, 10:57 PM
Yes

:laugh:

bucketss
01-02-2015, 11:00 PM
Yes

don't forget 1994 pippen won it. i guess jordan was playing alongside a superstar, contrary to the belief by some that jordan carried the bulls, almost by himself.

Bostonjorge
01-02-2015, 11:06 PM
His legacy will be a player who always took the easiest road possible. Never playing out west, super teams and weak playoff competition.

The only playoff series where I said wow this guy can can match up to any great was in the Detroit series in 2007. Every other playoff series he lost to great talent like KG and Duncan. The series where he did beat good talent like those 2 guys he had a unfair advantage.

Players like barkly always dared to be the best and always tried to prove it. He didn't think he needed a super team to beat Jordan. Barkly believed he was enough. James never had or lost that will along time ago.

Tony_Starks
01-02-2015, 11:16 PM
JB has gone on full troll mode on Lebron ever since he realized Lebron is closing the gap on Jordan. I mean he won't pass Jordan so not sure what you are so worried about. Let the man slide into 2nd place in peace.

2nd place? In what bizarro alternate universe will he ever be 2nd?

Miltstar
01-02-2015, 11:22 PM
The average Joe (or Jane) on social media is just some lifeless, idiotic, narcissist who knows little (if anything) about the subject.


... as he posts on a social media site...

JV35
01-02-2015, 11:25 PM
... as he posts on a social media site...Oh, the irony.

I think you need some original material.

Nothing personal, just saying.

ghettosean
01-02-2015, 11:39 PM
JB has gone on full troll mode on Lebron ever since he realized Lebron is closing the gap on Jordan. I mean he won't pass Jordan so not sure what you are so worried about. Let the man slide into 2nd place in peace.

2nd place? In what bizarro alternate universe will he ever be 2nd?

Pretty sure he's trolling... At least I think he is :S

JordansBulls
01-02-2015, 11:51 PM
don't forget 1994 pippen won it. i guess jordan was playing alongside a superstar, contrary to the belief by some that jordan carried the bulls, almost by himself.

1991 to 1993 wasn't.

JordansBulls
01-02-2015, 11:52 PM
JB has gone on full troll mode on Lebron ever since he realized Lebron is closing the gap on Jordan. I mean he won't pass Jordan so not sure what you are so worried about. Let the man slide into 2nd place in peace.

How so? Chambers averaged 26 and 8 and 27 and 7. Those are superstar numbers

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 12:05 AM
His legacy seems like it's travelling a similar road to Shaq.


Shaq is a likely top 10 player of all time (at least on most players lists). But the one thing that annoyed me throughout his career, is he needed the fans to be on his side for everything. Even when he would go do something terrible or rude, people would let it pass with a smile and occasional witty remark. Hell, I'm starting that he didn't actually work on free throws, and become the GOAT, just so he would be able to get fans to laugh/remember him.

Lebron is a likely top 5 player of all time (possibly top 3). But he seems to worry too much about what people will say after he makes a decision, or makes a comment that is perceived negatively. I just want him to not give a **** and go full GOAT :laugh: cause, I feel that he's holding back.

I agree that he should just go out there, play and not give a ****. I honestly think Lebron had the physical gifts to best Jordan and be the greatest of all time but what I think killed him over his career was his lack of competitiveness. He has somewhat of a history of taking the easy road and if it's not easy he'll take just bail. Leaving Cleveland then forming a super team in miami was an example, leaving Miami was a 2nd (he admitted them not winning a ship that year prompted him to leave), him never entering a dunk contest then holding his own with "no competition" is another... etc.

He's just too afraid of losing... the thing about players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that mount rushmore status.

bucketss
01-03-2015, 12:25 AM
the superstar irving shot 8-27 tonight, are we just throwing this word around now? i guess kyle lowry is a superstar as well.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 12:35 AM
the superstar irving shot 8-27 tonight, are we just throwing this word around now? i guess kyle lowry is a superstar as well.

To be fair that's a better percentage than Lebron in the last game he played in the blowout against Detroit and the Cavs won tonight.

t_money25
01-03-2015, 12:38 AM
PSD - the place where a bunch of wanna be mods call the most famous multi millionaire basketball player an idiot and unintelligent while they sit here at their computer wondering how they're gonna pay this month's rent.

bucketss
01-03-2015, 12:42 AM
To be fair that's a better percentage than Lebron in the last game he played in the blowout against Detroit and the Cavs won tonight.

thanks to the real superstar, kevin love. plus lebron shooting that % is uncommon, can't say the same for irving.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2015, 02:01 AM
How so? Chambers averaged 26 and 8 and 27 and 7. Those are superstar numbers

Posting superstar numbers and being a superstar are 2 different things.

Posting 20, 6 and 6 scream out superstar to you? Because Scottie and Tyreke Evans both averaged that. Guess both of these are superstars. :rolleyes:

There's never been a time Tom Chambers was a top 20 player in the NBA.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2015, 02:02 AM
2nd place? In what bizarro alternate universe will he ever be 2nd?

:facepalm:

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2015, 02:04 AM
1991 to 1993 wasn't.

Pippen wasn't a superstar from 1991-1993 despite being arguably a top 10 player (and easily top 15) but Tommy Chambers who's never been a top 20 player at any season he's played in was a superstar? Bwhahahaha.

DemarDerozan
01-03-2015, 02:25 AM
Again... Scottie was a late pick who Jordan challenged EVERY ****ING DAY until he became a star.
Jordan routinely beat him down in one on one match-ups during practice until he got it.

Who has LeBron ever dedicated to making better? JJ Hickson? Norris Cole?? Boobie Gibson???

No one. Bron has a prime opportunity to challenge Thompson, Irving and Waiters. He could be trying to make them better. But you know where he is? Sitting in his mansion with a sore knee and back watching "his" team fail.

There is no discussion in terms of greatness. Like I've said before about LBJ. Top five talent. Top 15 all time player. Right in front of Moses Malone.

Miltstar
01-03-2015, 02:31 AM
PSD - the place where a bunch of wanna be mods call the most famous multi millionaire basketball player an idiot and unintelligent while they sit here at their computer wondering how they're gonna pay this month's rent.

Lebron has his financial affairs in order that's for sure, it's unfortunate that seems to be his #1 priority

bucketss
01-03-2015, 02:56 AM
Again... Scottie was a late pick who Jordan challenged EVERY ****ING DAY until he became a star.
Jordan routinely beat him down in one on one match-ups during practice until he got it.

Who has LeBron ever dedicated to making better? JJ Hickson? Norris Cole?? Boobie Gibson???

No one. Bron has a prime opportunity to challenge Thompson, Irving and Waiters. He could be trying to make them better. But you know where he is? Sitting in his mansion with a sore knee and back watching "his" team fail.

There is no discussion in terms of greatness. Like I've said before about LBJ. Top five talent. Top 15 all time player. Right in front of Moses Malone.

its not like its his fault hes injured.also what you said about pippen to me is one of the many reasons why i find jordan overrated. Pippen was talented and would have been a star regardless.

if anything pippen turned jordan into a winner.

DemarDerozan
01-03-2015, 03:01 AM
its not like its his fault hes injured.also what you said about pippen to me is one of the many reasons why i find jordan overrated. Pippen was talented and would have been a star regardless.

if anything pippen turned jordan into a winner.

Need to check your basketball history on that bro. Pippen was nothing until MJ started to challenge him.

Also, Lebron being hurt with "knee pain" and a "back strain" for two weeks is a joke.
Real all-time greats play through pain and can win championships while experiencing viral illnes or broken fingers.

Lebron is lucky that he has never experienced a real injury. Otherwise, we would most likely not be having this discussion.

bucketss
01-03-2015, 03:07 AM
Need to check your basketball history on that bro. Pippen was nothing until MJ started to challenge him.

Also, Lebron being hurt with "knee pain" and a "back strain" for two weeks is a joke.
Real all-time greats play through pain and can win championships while experiencing viral illnes or broken fingers.

Lebron is lucky that he has never experienced a real injury. Otherwise, we would most likely not be having this discussion.

well lebron is not known to be out for injuries, especially for 2 weeks.plus its the regular season, you're acting like he missed a playoff game,you might think its a joke but you don't know what's he is feeling.

to your comments on pippen, jordan didn't win squat without pippen, he was considered a flashy player that just didn't win. so who was really nothing?

Cal827
01-03-2015, 03:13 AM
:laugh:


How the hell is Scottie Pippen NOT considered a Superstar?

DemarDerozan
01-03-2015, 03:19 AM
well lebron is not known to be out for injuries, especially for 2 weeks.plus its the regular season, you're acting like he missed a playoff game,you might think its a joke but you don't know what's he is feeling.

to your comments on pippen, jordan didn't win squat without pippen, he was considered a flashy player that just didn't win. so who was really nothing?

Pippen would have had the ceiling of Glen Rice hadn't he learned from Jordan. Pippen turned out to be great. But he also had the best player of all time and arguably the best coach of all time to thank for it.
Lebron did not mentor DWade or Bosh to be great. They were already top ten players in their own right.
He joined up with them to succeed.

MJ could have gone to NY or any other major market... but he stuck it out with the Bulls and made his teammates better. Most specifically, by his own admissions, Pippen.

What top 20 player in any era can claim that Bron made him better?
Any fan who has watched MJ and Lebron play... during both eras... can attest that Jordan was much stronger mentally than Lebron and built-up championship caliber players.

DemarDerozan
01-03-2015, 03:28 AM
I feel old right now...
But you kids really need to go back and watch some of the Bulls Championship series.
There was no Ray Allen saving the day back then gents... It was all MJ all the time.
Six time Final MVP.

And there is no ****ing way Lebron is close to number two. The ghost of Wilt Chamberlain should smack the **** out of you right now.

FraziersKnicks
01-03-2015, 04:19 AM
Are people really comparing Scottie Pippen's talent level to that of Boobie Gibson, JJ Hickson and Norris Cole?

:laugh2:

I need a break from PSD man

Confusious
01-03-2015, 05:41 AM
These threads are hilarious. I bet you if the internet was as big and easily accessible in the 90s as it is now, people would be like "LOL MICHAEL IS A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER" when he retired. So much his legacy, eh boys?

Chronz
01-03-2015, 06:24 AM
1991 to 1993 wasn't.

So when and how long was Chambers a star?

Chronz
01-03-2015, 06:51 AM
Pippen would have had the ceiling of Glen Rice hadn't he learned from Jordan. Pippen turned out to be great. But he also had the best player of all time and arguably the best coach of all time to thank for it.
Was wondering when you were going to bring PJ up. Only the guy Scottie credits most for making MJ a leader that he could learn from.


Lebron did not mentor DWade or Bosh to be great. They were already top ten players in their own right.
He joined up with them to succeed.

They ALL teamed up IMO. Either way what does it matter? The Cavs never had a talent the likes of Pippen for who could grow alongside Bron.


MJ could have gone to NY or any other major market... but he stuck it out with the Bulls and made his teammates better. Most specifically, by his own admissions, Pippen.
Like the great Charles Barkley once said, "Who is it easier to make better, Worthy, McHale or Jayson Williams?", Bron got the best he could out of the poop they drafted for him.


What top 20 player in any era can claim that Bron made him better?
What if we dont believe that Scottie would have failed elsewhere.


Any fan who has watched MJ and Lebron play... during both eras... can attest that Jordan was much stronger mentally than Lebron and built-up championship caliber players.

Him not being MJ is pretty easy to see. Thats not much of a criticism IMO.

Chronz
01-03-2015, 06:58 AM
As for the actual topic.
Tier System:
MJ
Wilt-KAJ-Russ
Shaq-Duncan-Kobe-Magic-Bird-
Bron/Moses

Its tough deciding between he and Moses, both have similar career arcs, Im sure Bron will have more runs of dominance than Moses, though both fell off around this stage. Until the longevity bears out, I can understand a vote for Moses. Bron doesn't need to win more chips to surpass any of these guys, he just needs to outdo their standards. Winning a championship does not automatically grant you a superior season or deem you a superior player. If that were the case, then everyones top20 list would basically include mostly Celtics. Doubt you guys are that inconsistent.

Chronz
01-03-2015, 07:04 AM
If Lebron doesn't win a championship in Cleveland how does this affect his legacy?

It wouldn't erase his already lofty accomplishments. Those are etched in stone, I never understood the idea that what has already been proven can be undone. Winning obviously enhances ones legacy, but the individuals actual level of play is what matters most. Every season can only add to a players legacy, every season missed detracts from a players career.

GoferKing_
01-03-2015, 08:29 AM
If Lebron doesn't win a championship in Cleveland how does this affect his legacy?

Again, what legacy?

Kenny Powders
01-03-2015, 08:56 AM
Why don't you wait until the end of his career to discuss this stupid topic.

KingPosey
01-03-2015, 09:06 AM
It's not necessarily about age; it's more about Games Played. LeBron right now has 871 games played. Jordan at his first retirement had 667 games-played. At his second retirment, he had 970 (which LeBron will reach soon). The wasteful Wizards' run pushed Jordan to 1,072.

LeBron's legacy is set.

He's only 30, games played or not, you can't say that because he's so young he's in his prime.

If from this day forward, just SAY he was awful, that would change things drastically. His legacy would absolutely not be set in stone.

Now that's not going to happen but enough could happen to change his legacy for the bad or the good. It's absolutely not set

jerellh528
01-03-2015, 09:21 AM
I hear people often say, he's probably top 10 now but can be top 3-5 when its all said and done. He's ranked on future potential too often like we forget that he's not a young buck anymore. He's got a good 2 maybe 3 years left before the book about closes on improving his legacy much. He was a very good player anyway, but his "legacy" isn't that special.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 10:01 AM
To be fair that's a better percentage than Lebron in the last game he played in the blowout against Detroit and the Cavs won tonight.

thanks to the real superstar, kevin love. plus lebron shooting that % is uncommon, can't say the same for irving.


The game before yesterday Irving was 13-27 and Love was 1-8. I'd rather not continue to have a sample size war though. I'm sure we can all agree his big 3 teammates are all stars. We don't need to pick on words.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 10:06 AM
if anything pippen turned jordan into a winner.

If that statement is true then why isn't he considered by all to be the greatest of all time.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 10:58 AM
If Lebron doesn't win a championship in Cleveland how does this affect his legacy?

It wouldn't erase his already lofty accomplishments. Those are etched in stone, I never understood the idea that what has already been proven can be undone. Winning obviously enhances ones legacy, but the individuals actual level of play is what matters most. Every season can only add to a players legacy, every season missed detracts from a players career.

So basically you are saying he can only rank higher in your mind he can never go lower than where he is today. I respect your opinion but don't understand it at all. You say winning obviously enhances ones legacy... What about losing?

Lebron has the help everyone claims he never had in Cleveland so technically this should be an easier walk to the finals than any of the other teams he's had in Cleveland. If he can make it to the finals as many claim with no help then it should be easy to get that far with all star and superstar help. Don't you think?

bucketss
01-03-2015, 12:02 PM
Pippen would have had the ceiling of Glen Rice hadn't he learned from Jordan. Pippen turned out to be great. But he also had the best player of all time and arguably the best coach of all time to thank for it.
Lebron did not mentor DWade or Bosh to be great. They were already top ten players in their own right.
He joined up with them to succeed.

MJ could have gone to NY or any other major market... but he stuck it out with the Bulls and made his teammates better. Most specifically, by his own admissions, Pippen.

What top 20 player in any era can claim that Bron made him better?
Any fan who has watched MJ and Lebron play... during both eras... can attest that Jordan was much stronger mentally than Lebron and built-up championship caliber players.

im done. my god jordan is overrated by his supporters.

GiantsSwaGG
01-03-2015, 01:01 PM
Pippen would have had the ceiling of Glen Rice hadn't he learned from Jordan. Pippen turned out to be great. But he also had the best player of all time and arguably the best coach of all time to thank for it.
Lebron did not mentor DWade or Bosh to be great. They were already top ten players in their own right.
He joined up with them to succeed.

MJ could have gone to NY or any other major market... but he stuck it out with the Bulls and made his teammates better. Most specifically, by his own admissions, Pippen.

What top 20 player in any era can claim that Bron made him better?
Any fan who has watched MJ and Lebron play... during both eras... can attest that Jordan was much stronger mentally than Lebron and built-up championship caliber players.

LeBron got to the Finals with trash, can't say the same for Jordan

redhorse
01-03-2015, 01:08 PM
im done. my god jordan is overrated by his supporters.

lol jordan aint overrrated...u either too young to kno....hes right....pippen developed with jordan....its not like pippen was this all star player or champion and they decided to join forces to play.... u can argue both of them made each other better, but from the day jordan was drafted he was killing it.... and of course jordan needed help like anybody does , but once he did have help they absolutely dominated....

And this whole thing bout its harder to play nowadays cuz of social media is dumb....to me players r more overrated because of that.... and read stories about what players use to say bout mj....he use to thrive with ppl talking trash to him....

redhorse
01-03-2015, 01:09 PM
LeBron got to the Finals with trash, can't say the same for Jordan

So did kidd and iverson.....so what does that mean

bucketss
01-03-2015, 01:24 PM
lol jordan aint overrrated...u either too young to kno....hes right....pippen developed with jordan....its not like pippen was this all star player or champion and they decided to join forces to play.... u can argue both of them made each other better, but from the day jordan was drafted he was killing it.... and of course jordan needed help like anybody does , but once he did have help they absolutely dominated....

And this whole thing bout its harder to play nowadays cuz of social media is dumb....to me players r more overrated because of that.... and read stories about what players use to say bout mj....he use to thrive with ppl talking trash to him....

so if it wasn't for jordan, pippen would be glen rice?(at best)

Chronz
01-03-2015, 03:18 PM
I hear people often say, he's probably top 10 now but can be top 3-5 when its all said and done. He's ranked on future potential too often like we forget that he's not a young buck anymore. He's got a good 2 maybe 3 years left before the book about closes on improving his legacy much. He was a very good player anyway, but his "legacy" isn't that special.
We did that for every player to ever play, thats the point of projecting. Nobodies forgetting anything, we just disagree with your opinion. In case you didn't notice, longevity matters, that Bron already has an argument against some of those top players is why people can see such a gaudy career. I dont know about top5 but top7 is within easy range. Just a few more years of All-NBA level play and strong playoff showings. When you speak about the TEAM winning, I would have to understand the context of his teammates play.

Chronz
01-03-2015, 03:31 PM
So basically you are saying he can only rank higher in your mind he can never go lower than where he is today. I respect your opinion but don't understand it at all. You say winning obviously enhances ones legacy... What about losing?
I base players on their accomplishments because even in what ever you define as a "losing" season, it is STILL better than not playing at all. I cant respect an argument that tells me if a player were to retire, his career would be greater. I appreciate every drop of talent they are able to expend in the NBA. If a player has accomplished enough throughout his career to be deemed in the conversation, him exceeding their seasons played only adds to their career. Like take a look at Moses, thats someone I think Bron is neck and neck with, the ONLY reason I dont have Bron ahead is because I did factor in the fact that he remained an All-Star caliber bigman well after his steep decline. He underachieved throughout the rest of his career on several occassions after his single championship run. All that losing doesn't erase how ungodly he was during that season. Would you rather he retire if he doesn't win?


Lebron has the help everyone claims he never had in Cleveland so technically this should be an easier walk to the finals than any of the other teams he's had in Cleveland.
Bron himself isn't the player he used to be and the East has a few new faces to challenge. Projections are fun but reality determines everything. I do think Bron needs to amp up his effort level defensively but at the same time, this was about the stage when all those other superstars started coasting defensively. Well except for Duncan, Wilt and Hakeem.



If he can make it to the finals as many claim with no help then it should be easy to get that far with all star and superstar help. Don't you think?
I think a team comes down to more than just 3 players in todays NBA. Irving is an All-Star, but he also plays a position that isn't lacking for talent. Every night there is someone arguably as good or better than him, at least on good teams. So its not the advantage you think it is, not unless they are godly efficient or defensively astute. Irving has been neither historically. Hes a great piece for Bron IMO, but he and Love aren't the best fit TOGETHER (At least not with this coasting Bron refusing to run the offense). They should go in 1 direction and pair Bron with 1 offensive piece and defensive studs around him. Thats the best way to build around him but hes usually had to be the rock defensively for his teams to win championships with their offensive approach.

Chronz
01-03-2015, 03:33 PM
So did kidd and iverson.....so what does that mean

Iverson had the best support of any Eastern Star so I disagree. Bron actually had to take down a team that was superior to his own on route to the Finals. Neither the Nets nor the Sixers can make that claim. The East wasn't the dog **** it was that season. Those were the years where a single superstar like Tmac could carry a rag tag group of retirees into an 8th seed.

sammyvine
01-03-2015, 04:22 PM
i think he could have been even better if he had a more greater mentality.

sammyvine
01-03-2015, 04:24 PM
Iverson had the best support of any Eastern Star so I disagree. Bron actually had to take down a team that was superior to his own on route to the Finals. Neither the Nets nor the Sixers can make that claim. The East wasn't the dog **** it was that season. Those were the years where a single superstar like Tmac could carry a rag tag group of retirees into an 8th seed.

Lebron>Jordan? lol

Lebron is the GOAT

LOOTERX9
01-03-2015, 04:39 PM
Ring chaser would be his legacy. If he had stayed in Miami then he would be legit. But him jumping teams to find other stars to play with hurts his legacy

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 04:47 PM
if he gets hit by a truck right now and never plays again, top 10 player ever. If he can enjoy a nice decline, and continue piling up numbers and accolades, he will probably enter top 5.

How you perceive him in general, legacy wise, would be an individual decision. But you wouldn't be able to deny his place in the hierarchy of the game number wise.

Based on his current legacy as it stands and factoring in some more longevity, who do you take out of the top ten of all time to include Lebron. I just don't see a case for him unless he racks up some more accolades in addition to some good maintained longevity.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 04:52 PM
I hear people often say, he's probably top 10 now but can be top 3-5 when its all said and done. He's ranked on future potential too often like we forget that he's not a young buck anymore. He's got a good 2 maybe 3 years left before the book about closes on improving his legacy much. He was a very good player anyway, but his "legacy" isn't that special.

I've been hearing this kind of stuff since 2005 and it just never changes. Funny thing is that all the pro Lebron guys always said that rings shouldn't count towards an individual players legacy and that they are a team accomplishment. Yet when Lebron won his first ring, they all of the sudden jumped him up like 10 places on the all time list. Then when he won his second ring, he was undisputed top ten of all time and a lock for top five with just some run of the mill longevity to add to his resume. It's best not to try to hard analyzing the logic of a fan boy. It will drive you crazy. Literally.

Kaner
01-03-2015, 04:56 PM
Based on his current legacy as it stands and factoring in some more longevity, who do you take out of the top ten of all time to include Lebron. I just don't see a case for him unless he racks up some more accolades in addition to some good maintained longevity.

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
and maybe Russell are the 9 that you can argue he hasn't passed already. Both his accolades and stats clearly put him ahead of Hakeem, Oscar, West, etc, etc.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 05:01 PM
Iverson had the best support of any Eastern Star so I disagree. Bron actually had to take down a team that was superior to his own on route to the Finals. Neither the Nets nor the Sixers can make that claim. The East wasn't the dog **** it was that season. Those were the years where a single superstar like Tmac could carry a rag tag group of retirees into an 8th seed.

New Jersey and Philly both had some pretty tough series to make it to the finals as well. In comparison to their own strength that is. Other than the impressive game five Lebron had against Detroit, nothing really stands out all that note worthy in comparison to Iverson's and Kidd's impressive runs as well. I could nitpick and add that Boobie Gibson was the MVP of the closing game six that got the Cavs to the finals that year. Or that McDyess being ejected early in game five is what opened up the lane for Lebron to make all those consecutive layups against Detroit in the 4th and OT. Not trying to take away from anything that Lebron did that year as he was the leader of the team and deserves most of the credit for sure. I'm just saying that it's not much more impressive than what Iverson and Kidd did but a few years earlier. Kidd did it twice too btw.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 05:02 PM
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
and maybe Russell are the 9 that you can argue he hasn't passed already. Both his accolades and stats clearly put him ahead of Hakeem, Oscar, West, etc, etc.

Hakeem no.
Russell no.
West no.
Oscar maybe.

Kaner
01-03-2015, 05:38 PM
I've been hearing this kind of stuff since 2005 and it just never changes. Funny thing is that all the pro Lebron guys always said that rings shouldn't count towards an individual players legacy and that they are a team accomplishment. Yet when Lebron won his first ring, they all of the sudden jumped him up like 10 places on the all time list. Then when he won his second ring, he was undisputed top ten of all time and a lock for top five with just some run of the mill longevity to add to his resume. It's best not to try to hard analyzing the logic of a fan boy. It will drive you crazy. Literally.

Nice strawman argument, very convincing, but he became undisputed top 10 in many people's minds when he won his 2nd ring because that was the only argument against him at that point considering his obvious statistical advantage over anyone outside of the top 5.


Hakeem no.
Russell no.
West no.
Oscar maybe.

This has played out a 100 times on PSD just the past year so am not going to bother being drawn into a pointless back and forth where we both know what the other's argument is. I think West vs Lebron is the easiest to compare based on positions so I'll just do that quickly.

West vs Lebron: Lebron more ppg, apg, rpg, more respected defender, 4 more MVP's, 1 more final's mvp, 1 more championship, 10 more ws in 2000 fewer minutes, more efficient scorer, higher PER along with every advanced stat in Lebron's favor. In the playoffs where West's resume shines Lebron averages more apg, rpg, .04 more ws/48 leading to 6 more ws, more efficient score, and averaged 1 less ppg on 2.5 fewer shots.

So he has stats, MVP's, Championships, and playoff resume on West and you are honestly going to give a hard "no." that Lebron's hasn't surpassed him at this point...

chi-townlove1
01-03-2015, 05:48 PM
if he'd played in Jordan's era he'd be remembered as the greatest player of all-time probably

Well, I don't agree with that.

I'd put it like this:

If Jordan never existed, and LBJ had played between 1984 and 1998 and won 6 titles, LBJ might be remembered as one of the greatest ever.



but since he's the first to come along in the era of social media he will ultimately be quite underrated.

I'd also disagree. The rise of social media has led to the tendency of sports accomplishments (both individual and team) being incredibly overrated.


Very well said.

Wade n Fade
01-03-2015, 05:54 PM
LeBron, on the court, is a sight to see. An Oscar Robertson incarnate in a SF frame with the power of a 4 and the handles of a 1. He is a great teammate that enjoys the game for what it is when he's into it. On the flipside, he gives up easily on himself and on teammates if he's disinterested. His game is transcending and ones in a generation talent along the likes of Magic and Robertson. However, off the court, he has an ego. He knew that he wanted to go back to Cleveland for the 14/15 season. Bolting from team to team will be LeBron's greatest knock. He's done in Cleveland after this season. Houston will be a likely suitor. Morrey can clear up space with a few moves here and there. After all, I am sure he can find a place for an Ariza if can part ways with a Clint Capela and a few picks for cap space. LeBron is a great player, but his ego is too much at times. He's not a douche like MJ or Kobe, as evident by LeBron's charitable actions, but his ego inflates from different actions of bolting. MJ will always be more popular since he was consistent on the court and off the court despite being a compulsive gambler and having negative influences in his life.

mngopher35
01-03-2015, 06:21 PM
Based on his current legacy as it stands and factoring in some more longevity, who do you take out of the top ten of all time to include Lebron. I just don't see a case for him unless he racks up some more accolades in addition to some good maintained longevity.


Hakeem no.
Russell no.
West no.
Oscar maybe.

It all depends on what you value.

Looking at the stats/impact lebron has bird beat. Looking at defense lebron has bird beat. Looking at accolades they are basically neck and neck. Looking at longevity lebron is just about caught up. There is a very valid argument for lebron as the best sf ever at this point already in his career.

There are also arguments for him over the players you are saying no for (except Hakeem IMO). He just needs longevity to reach some others ahead of him which it has yet to be seen if he will attain. You mention he needs more accolades but he is on an extremely short list with 2fmvps and 4 mvps and is already reaching the longevity of others on the list like bird and magic.

Sanjay
01-03-2015, 06:24 PM
LeBron, on the court, is a sight to see. An Oscar Robertson incarnate in a SF frame with the power of a 4 and the handles of a 1. He is a great teammate that enjoys the game for what it is when he's into it. On the flipside, he gives up easily on himself and on teammates if he's disinterested. His game is transcending and ones in a generation talent along the likes of Magic and Robertson. However, off the court, he has an ego. He knew that he wanted to go back to Cleveland for the 14/15 season. Bolting from team to team will be LeBron's greatest knock. He's done in Cleveland after this season. Houston will be a likely suitor. Morrey can clear up space with a few moves here and there. After all, I am sure he can find a place for an Ariza if can part ways with a Clint Capela and a few picks for cap space. LeBron is a great player, but his ego is too much at times. He's not a douche like MJ or Kobe, as evident by LeBron's charitable actions, but his ego inflates from different actions of bolting. MJ will always be more popular since he was consistent on the court and off the court despite being a compulsive gambler and having negative influences in his life.

You said it he is extremely talented, but doesn't have the attitude of a great like MJ or Kobe. To me that is more important than being a bit more skilled than another player (not saying LeBron has better skills than Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant) especially when talking about legacy. The fact that he deserted his hometown Cleveland when they couldn't win and then went back to them when he realised the Heat could not beat whoever won the Western Conference, significantly affects my opinion on his legacy. Compare this to MJ or Kobe who played their entire careers with one team (ignore Michael Jordan's pointless post-retirement stint with the Wizards). Also, how are MJ and Kobe douches and what does Michael Jordan's gambling have to do with his basketball legacy?

Sanjay
01-03-2015, 06:29 PM
I don't think whether LeBron wins a title or titles with the Cavs affects his legacy. To me his jumping of teams defines his legacy. Personally, I was surprised he went back to Cleveland given how he left, how Cavs fans were feeling and where he went to.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 07:10 PM
Nice strawman argument, very convincing, but he became undisputed top 10 in many people's minds when he won his 2nd ring because that was the only argument against him at that point considering his obvious statistical advantage over anyone outside of the top 5.

Wasn't intended to be a strawman, nor of hand would I think what I said would even qualify. Regardless, the main point I was making was that the pro Lebron guys often times propagate the notion that rings are a team accomplishment and that they should have little to no effect on an individual players legacy. I simply showed through simple logic how they contradict themselves on this very same notion by raising his individual player rankings when he won his two rings. Had they stuck to their guns and original argument, they would have not been able to raise his individual rank when he won those two rings. You catch my drift I'm sure. The main point is that if championships and rings truly had no value as many of them had claimed, there would have been absolutely zero value to add to his all time resume when he won them.

Also, those you refer to outside the top five whom you claim he has a statistical advantage over. How many of them are you not factoring in declining years to weigh evenly with Lebron who has yet to experience those. Let's not even get into how the system a player runs can manipulate those numbers greatly. Are you talking playoffs or regular season. What sort of competition are you factoring in.


This has played out a 100 times on PSD just the past year so am not going to bother being drawn into a pointless back and forth where we both know what the other's argument is. I think West vs Lebron is the easiest to compare based on positions so I'll just do that quickly.

In my humble opinion, I believe West to be one of the most underrated players of all time. Had he not been up against the likes of Wilt and Russell and the mega stacked Celtic line ups of the 60's the dude could easily have been in the conversation with Kareem and Wilt for top three of all time and possibly even Jordan (though he did not have the flashy dunks) in terms of legacy. As an individual talent he is surely above Bill Russell and only doesn't rank as high because Russell was fortunate enough to be paired with 4-5 hall of famers every year he played. The dude dominated his era in a way that Lebron never did.


West vs Lebron: Lebron more ppg, apg, rpg,

Not factoring in declining years.

No three point line to boost West's ppg and we all know the guy could have gotten it done from deep.

rpg is to me a non factor as Lebron played closer to the basket and was on weaker rebounding teams which artificially boots his totals.


more respected defender,

West was and is a very underrated defender. The dude was savage to say the least when it came to defense. Many are on record verifying this. Many greats who he played with as well as the eye test. Had they had all defensive teams in his day, I could easily argue that West would have won at least ten selections.


4 more MVP's,

Not really a determining factor to me seeing as it's the media who votes for these and often times they have even admitted that it's not an award reserved for the best player in the league, rather the player who was most valuable to their team that season. Would Lebron have 4 MVP's had he been up against the likes of Russell and the teams success of the Celtics every year or Wilt and his absolute dominance over the league statistically. What about how playing along side Elgin for so many years didn't give him the chance to dominate statistically as much as he should have. Surely you must factor all this in.


1 more final's mvp, 1 more championship,

So you're going to hold it against West that he was unfortunate enough to run into the supremely stacked Celtics every year in the finals. Without getting into how much more help Lebron had and how much weaker the teams he faced in comparison to what West faced in the finals every year, I will simply state that I could take five of West's best finals runs and they would all be better than Lebron's best finals run. Lebron doesn't even have a finals run that is close to the time West won his finals MVP. West was by far the better performer against the best of the best.


10 more ws in 2000 fewer minutes,

Extremely difficult comparison to make across era's especially when they weren't keeping track of a lot of stats in West's day.


more efficient scorer,

No three point line to factor in. Surely West would have had him beat in TS% I would imagine had there been a three point line. West was the better pure shooter. West also didn't have flopping and ticky tack fouls to take advantage of during his off shooting nights so he could get to the line and boost his efficiency.


higher PER along with every advanced stat in Lebron's favor.

Again, they didn't keep track of most stats in his day so I don't even get how you can draw any sort of conclusion off of this. Again, no three point line and no anti aging supplements for West. That means no three point shooters to spread the floor for him to drive to the basket with ease and harder to kick out for easy assists. Not to mention the individual shooting efficiency thing again.


In the playoffs where West's resume shines Lebron averages more apg, rpg, .04 more ws/48 leading to 6 more ws, more efficient score, and averaged 1 less ppg on 2.5 fewer shots.

Again, West's playoff resume is better than Lebron's. I really don't care so much about apg and rpg. I care about the total package. West performed far better against greater teams in comparison. Apg and rpg can be inflated for a myriad of reasons which I have already illustrated above. Ws/48 and ws are hard to compare across era's especially with the absence of certain stats being recorded. Had West had a three point line to take advantage of, I could only imagine that he would have been equally if not more efficient overall. Then we must still also factor in Lebron's declining years as well. Of course let me illustrate once more that all this statistical analysis is inconsequential next to the overall product which West if clearly superior when it counts. In the playoffs, West was the better player against the league's elite. Again, the glaring stat that jumps out to me is that West's top five if not six or seven finals appearances are better than Lebron's best finals appearance. All with a far lesser supporting cast facing superior teams with 5 plus HOFers.


So he has stats, MVP's, Championships, and playoff resume on West and you are honestly going to give a hard "no." that Lebron's hasn't surpassed him at this point...

I can give you that from a simple resume stand point Lebron has a good case. That is also the main argument with Russell whom I feel West was the better player than as well. However, West still has Lebron beat on longevity, impact, leadership, playoff performances, finals performances, and what he meant to the league as a whole. West also won a ring with the team that drafted him despite coming up short so many times with inferior talent surrounding him similar to Lebron in Cleveland who bolted to stack the deck greatly in his favor. I also believe that as a player overall, West was better. When factoring in what lead to these comparable accomplishments (competition, rule changes, etc.), I feel I have proved that West holds a pretty sizable advantage though still lacks the accomplishments themselves which unfortunately does speak volumes. So while I can't give a decisive "no", I can still give a well supported "no" and add that it is likely in time that Lebron will overtake West from a sheer legacy standpoint. It is to me unfortunate because West will still remain the NBA's most underrated player of all time simply because he was very unlucky in terms of having the necessary talent around him to compete against the superior talent around him at the time of his reign.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 07:17 PM
I base players on their accomplishments because even in what ever you define as a "losing" season, it is STILL better than not playing at all. I cant respect an argument that tells me if a player were to retire, his career would be greater. I appreciate every drop of talent they are able to expend in the NBA. If a player has accomplished enough throughout his career to be deemed in the conversation, him exceeding their seasons played only adds to their career. Like take a look at Moses, thats someone I think Bron is neck and neck with, the ONLY reason I dont have Bron ahead is because I did factor in the fact that he remained an All-Star caliber bigman well after his steep decline. He underachieved throughout the rest of his career on several occassions after his single championship run. All that losing doesn't erase how ungodly he was during that season. Would you rather he retire if he doesn't win?


I never said Lebron should retire but I was stating that if his legacy becomes better when he's winning then why does losing not affect it. He just turned 30 years old he's not an old man or anything and since so many people are comparing him to Jordan then MJ won his last title at the age of 35. I don't want him to retire over playing but if Jordan clanked that last shot in 1998 and lost in the finals... Lets say he lost the last 2 years in a row to Utah I guarantee that his legacy would have taken a hit and we would not be crowning him the GOAT. This is why I asked the question in regards to Lebron and would his legacy take a hit or lower in your mind.



Bron himself isn't the player he used to be and the East has a few new faces to challenge. Projections are fun but reality determines everything. I do think Bron needs to amp up his effort level defensively but at the same time, this was about the stage when all those other superstars started coasting defensively. Well except for Duncan, Wilt and Hakeem.


All players need to deal with new challenges and it's a different east because he bolted from his team in Miami and went back to Cleveland but he's always been in the east so that doesn't hold much weight for me to be honest.

Also you left out Larry Bird and Jordan out of your list.



I think a team comes down to more than just 3 players in todays NBA. Irving is an All-Star, but he also plays a position that isn't lacking for talent. Every night there is someone arguably as good or better than him, at least on good teams. So its not the advantage you think it is, not unless they are godly efficient or defensively astute. Irving has been neither historically. Hes a great piece for Bron IMO, but he and Love aren't the best fit TOGETHER (At least not with this coasting Bron refusing to run the offense). They should go in 1 direction and pair Bron with 1 offensive piece and defensive studs around him. Thats the best way to build around him but hes usually had to be the rock defensively for his teams to win championships with their offensive approach.


I'm not saying Irving is the best PG in the east I'm saying he's definitely the best #2 player Lebron has had with any of his previous teammates in Cleveland and Kevin Love is in the same argument as in the past people have said he doesn't have enough help but since he's made it to the finals with less (according to most) and his current roster isn't that poor (with all star and superstar talent) I don't think they even had a 6th man on his other teams and they have Waiters now to play that role (even if not playing well now he's still better than anything they had in the past) unless you want to use Donyell Marshall or something as a comparison.

It's not that I disagree with your overall opinion as I rank Lebron close to where you do all time though he is not in my top 10 which you are iffy about as well but he has more support on this squad than previously in Cleveland Kyrie, Love, Lebron, Marion and Tristan Thompson or Verjeao (Though he is hurt now) is better than anything that Lebron had in the past on his championship run in Cleveland (better than any team he's had in a cavs uniform really).

It might just be me but if people are going to say Lebron did so much with nothing than if he can't do anything with a significantly better at 30 then I'm not sure what to think when ranking him all time. It definitely wouldn't impress me for one and that he did all this with nothing talk would fly out the window to me.

Wade n Fade
01-03-2015, 07:19 PM
You said it he is extremely talented, but doesn't have the attitude of a great like MJ or Kobe. To me that is more important than being a bit more skilled than another player (not saying LeBron has better skills than Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant) especially when talking about legacy. The fact that he deserted his hometown Cleveland when they couldn't win and then went back to them when he realised the Heat could not beat whoever won the Western Conference, significantly affects my opinion on his legacy. Compare this to MJ or Kobe who played their entire careers with one team (ignore Michael Jordan's pointless post-retirement stint with the Wizards). Also, how are MJ and Kobe douches and what does Michael Jordan's gambling have to do with his basketball legacy?

On and off the court stuff is what I am referring to. Kobe is a HOF SG, but he throws teammates under the bus. He doesn't have Dirk's or Tim Duncan's desire to win a ring in their last legs of their career. MJ was quick to get on his teammates if they didn't match his intensity. I look into character on and off the court for stars and players in general.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 07:22 PM
It all depends on what you value.

Looking at the stats/impact lebron has bird beat. Looking at defense lebron has bird beat. Looking at accolades they are basically neck and neck. Looking at longevity lebron is just about caught up. There is a very valid argument for lebron as the best sf ever at this point already in his career.

There are also arguments for him over the players you are saying no for (except Hakeem IMO). He just needs longevity to reach some others ahead of him which it has yet to be seen if he will attain. You mention he needs more accolades but he is on an extremely short list with 2fmvps and 4 mvps and is already reaching the longevity of others on the list like bird and magic.

Yes I agree it does depend greatly upon what one values. I will be the first to admit from a resume standpoint Lebron has a good argument. However, Russell would have had a minimum of three finals MVP's had the award existed. I don't see him bumping Russell off anytime soon and I have made my argument for West in the post above. Hakeem definitely has him beat as of now for sure. Bird to me also had the better three-four year peak especially when factoring in playoffs and finals. Yes Lebron does have him in defense and will soon have him in longevity no doubt. However, similar to West, we shouldn't hold it against him that he had to go up against superior teams in the finals year after year. Regular season MVP's don't hold as much value to me as how a player performed against the best of their era. Bird surely has Lebron beat in this category as well. Bird was also the clear leader on his team and it's debatable on whether Lebron was or not. If we wanna go by accolades alone, Russell is GOAT, so by that notion, we must factor in these other extenuating circumstances. We must look at the whole picture. I just don't like to play the guessing game and project where somebody is going to end up. Lets let Lebron get some more longevity before we place him amongst the best of the best.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 07:26 PM
It all depends on what you value.

Looking at the stats/impact lebron has bird beat. Looking at defense lebron has bird beat. Looking at accolades they are basically neck and neck. Looking at longevity lebron is just about caught up. There is a very valid argument for lebron as the best sf ever at this point already in his career.

There are also arguments for him over the players you are saying no for (except Hakeem IMO). He just needs longevity to reach some others ahead of him which it has yet to be seen if he will attain. You mention he needs more accolades but he is on an extremely short list with 2fmvps and 4 mvps and is already reaching the longevity of others on the list like bird and magic.

Incorrect Bird has a better defensive rating than Lebron.

Also Bird was better IMO.

mngopher35
01-03-2015, 07:31 PM
Incorrect Bird has a better defensive rating than Lebron.

Also Bird was better IMO.

Defensive rating is also reliant on teammates, not solely the individual. Lebron has made many first team all defense while Bird has not. Lebron even finished 2nd in dpoy a couple of times.

I'll agree to disagree since I have seen your stance on Lebron plenty enough to know we won't get anywhere.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 07:34 PM
Defensive rating is also reliant on teammates, not solely the individual. Lebron has made many first team all defense while Bird has not. Lebron even finished 2nd in dpoy a couple of times.

I'll agree to disagree since I have seen your stance on Lebron plenty enough to know we won't get anywhere.

That argument can be made about almost any stat there is.

Sean Moore
01-03-2015, 07:35 PM
Also, since when do defensive teams prove who the best defenders in the league were. Pretty empty accolades if you ask me.

Sanjay
01-03-2015, 07:46 PM
On and off the court stuff is what I am referring to. Kobe is a HOF SG, but he throws teammates under the bus. He doesn't have Dirk's or Tim Duncan's desire to win a ring in their last legs of their career. MJ was quick to get on his teammates if they didn't match his intensity. I look into character on and off the court for stars and players in general.

I think that's what makes Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant legends, their competitiveness and work ethic.

mngopher35
01-03-2015, 07:58 PM
Yes I agree it does depend greatly upon what one values. I will be the first to admit from a resume standpoint Lebron has a good argument. However, Russell would have had a minimum of three finals MVP's had the award existed. I don't see him bumping Russell off anytime soon and I have made my argument for West in the post above. Hakeem definitely has him beat as of now for sure.

As I said it will come down to what someone values. I have Russell behind other players as well where you would probably disagree but he wasn't great on the offensive side of the ball like all of the other greats on the list. I agree about the FMVP's though. Accolades wise Russell has an amazing argument but it is the stats/impact where he falls off imo as I feel his teams were a major part of the accolades. I wasn't around to see him play and will openly admit that it might play a part of my judgements but from what I have seen and heard about the 2 I have wilt as a top 3 player and Russell close to 10 (west probably around 13 but I'll let you two discuss him). I have watched plenty of video of past NBA but these two are a couple of the hardest to get a lot of tape on. Just my opinion.


Bird to me also had the better three-four year peak especially when factoring in playoffs and finals. Yes Lebron does have him in defense and will soon have him in longevity no doubt. However, similar to West, we shouldn't hold it against him that he had to go up against superior teams in the finals year after year. Regular season MVP's don't hold as much value to me as how a player performed against the best of their era. Bird surely has Lebron beat in this category as well. Bird was also the clear leader on his team and it's debatable on whether Lebron was or not. If we wanna go by accolades alone, Russell is GOAT, so by that notion, we must factor in these other extenuating circumstances. We must look at the whole picture. I just don't like to play the guessing game and project where somebody is going to end up. Lets let Lebron get some more longevity before we place him amongst the best of the best.

I disagree about the peak argument for Bird as they were quite similar all around talents in their peak but Lebron's defense gives him an edge. Anyways even so Lebron currently has more ppg (and total pts), apg (and total assists), better PER, TS%, WS, WS/48, ORTG. He has an advantage in all of these except the assists in the playoffs as well (advanced by even bigger gaps).

It isn't solely the MVPS but also that Lebron was the best player in the league when he won them as well (feel free to argue against this but I don't think it was just media bias or anything). Lebron outside of 2011 has been the leader of his team every year. Larry was surrounded by incredible talent throughout his career while Lebron is now on year 5 of anything resembling that group Bird played with. Bird himself questioned if Lebron's 2012 was the best playoff run we have ever seen from a player. Bird actually had his PER and WS/48 drop come playoff time whereas Lebron's was about the same in regular season and playoffs. With all of this I disagree with the notion of Bird being the better playoff performer.

There are tons of factors and everyone will weight them differently but to say Lebron needs more longevity to be in the conversation doesn't make much sense, especially when he is right there with Bird in games and minutes played.

mngopher35
01-03-2015, 08:03 PM
That argument can be made about almost any stat there is.


Also, since when do defensive teams prove who the best defenders in the league were. Pretty empty accolades if you ask me.


True but it is especially true in defensive rating and the way it is calculated. Also while Bird has a 1 pt advantage on Lebron in the regular season Lebron has a 3 pt drtg advantage in the post season. The accolades may not always be agreeable but on the defensive end they are hugely in favor of Lebron. You already agreed Lebron has the defensive edge so it seems you are just arguing to argue here.

BklynKnicks3
01-03-2015, 08:11 PM
The biggest coward in the history of sports

Wade n Fade
01-03-2015, 08:22 PM
I think that's what makes Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant legends, their competitiveness and work ethic.

But why shouldn't the way you act as a person on the court not reflect on someone's legacy? Kobe a legend? Too much of a stretch. He's a HOF, but no legend. Overblowing his impact and his career.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 08:42 PM
Defensive rating is also reliant on teammates, not solely the individual. Lebron has made many first team all defense while Bird has not. Lebron even finished 2nd in dpoy a couple of times.

I'll agree to disagree since I have seen your stance on Lebron plenty enough to know we won't get anywhere.

I'll agree to disagree after this post since you disagree with defensive rating to be used as a stat to measure defensive effectiveness :D

Bird is rated higher in defensive win shares in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has more steals in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has more blocks in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has waaaaaaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more defensive rebounds than Lebron in the playoffs and regular season

To add:

Bird has only played 6 more playoff games and 26 more regular season games than Lebron so this is a pretty decent time for comparisons of this kind but if you want to wait till the amount of games is dead on equal we can rehash this again then.

Like I said Bird was the better defender but well agree to disagree.

mngopher35
01-03-2015, 08:55 PM
I'll agree to disagree after this post since you disagree with defensive rating to be used as a stat to measure defensive effectiveness :D

Bird is rated higher in defensive win shares in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has more steals in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has more blocks in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has waaaaaaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more defensive rebounds than Lebron in the playoffs and regular season

To add:

Bird has only played 6 more playoff games and 26 more regular season games than Lebron so this is a pretty decent time for comparisons of this kind but if you want to wait till the amount of games is dead on equal we can rehash this again then.

Like I said Bird was the better defender but well agree to disagree.

I don't think that everyone has to agree with me about Lebron being the better defender but it is my opinion and defense is tougher to judge statistically for sure. We are getting better with more advanced ways to track players though. Rules on defense have also changed so it can make it even harder to judge that way as well. Bird was a better play maker on defense I will give you that and it is a major reason why the stats you mentioned favor him (plus pace adjustment). Lebron has done a lot on the defensive end as an anchor/team defender (something Bird had on his team already) and as the guy who guards the top player when it matters. In fact the lack of having a great defender in the post is a huge flaw in many of Lebron's teams (which is made up for by overall talent) which leads to him needing more responsibility on that end.

I am fine agreeing to disagree on this subject as stated. When it comes to the 2nd bold though I definitely agree and it is part of what I am arguing with the other poster about their longevity, they are almost at the same amounts played right now.

JordansBulls
01-03-2015, 09:05 PM
Again... Scottie was a late pick who Jordan challenged EVERY ****ING DAY until he became a star.
Jordan routinely beat him down in one on one match-ups during practice until he got it.

Who has LeBron ever dedicated to making better? JJ Hickson? Norris Cole?? Boobie Gibson???

No one. Bron has a prime opportunity to challenge Thompson, Irving and Waiters. He could be trying to make them better. But you know where he is? Sitting in his mansion with a sore knee and back watching "his" team fail.

There is no discussion in terms of greatness. Like I've said before about LBJ. Top five talent. Top 15 all time player. Right in front of Moses Malone.

This!!!!

No player has ever gotten better playing with Lebron nor ever became a star. In fact other stars get worse playing with him even Bosh said that and we are seeing it from Love now.

DemarDerozan
01-03-2015, 09:19 PM
As for the actual topic.
Tier System:
MJ
Wilt-KAJ-Russ
Shaq-Duncan-Kobe-Magic-Bird-
Bron/Moses

Its tough deciding between he and Moses, both have similar career arcs, Im sure Bron will have more runs of dominance than Moses, though both fell off around this stage. Until the longevity bears out, I can understand a vote for Moses. Bron doesn't need to win more chips to surpass any of these guys, he just needs to outdo their standards. Winning a championship does not automatically grant you a superior season or deem you a superior player. If that were the case, then everyones top20 list would basically include mostly Celtics. Doubt you guys are that inconsistent.

So how did you just disagree with every point I made about MJ vs LBJ... Then come up with the exact same conclusion that LBJ is on Moses level?

I'm not upset. I'm actually impressed.

bucketss
01-03-2015, 09:27 PM
This!!!!

No player has ever gotten better playing with Lebron nor ever became a star. In fact other stars get worse playing with him even Bosh said that and we are seeing it from Love now.

bosh went from the man in toronto, to third fiddle in Miami, behind two very ball dominant wings. same with love. so why are you surprised their numbers are down?

still doesn't prove anything on the pippens case, obviously pippen was overshadowed by jordans hype.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2015, 09:35 PM
This!!!!

No player has ever gotten better playing with Lebron nor ever became a star. In fact other stars get worse playing with him even Bosh said that and we are seeing it from Love now.

So that's on Lebron and not the fact that maybe there was no one there who could've been a star anyway? Tell me one person who could've bencome a superstar that Lebron has played with?

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 09:57 PM
I'll agree to disagree after this post since you disagree with defensive rating to be used as a stat to measure defensive effectiveness :D

Bird is rated higher in defensive win shares in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has more steals in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has more blocks in the playoffs and regular season
Bird has waaaaaaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more defensive rebounds than Lebron in the playoffs and regular season

To add:

Bird has only played 6 more playoff games and 26 more regular season games than Lebron so this is a pretty decent time for comparisons of this kind but if you want to wait till the amount of games is dead on equal we can rehash this again then.

Like I said Bird was the better defender but well agree to disagree.

I don't think that everyone has to agree with me about Lebron being the better defender but it is my opinion and defense is tougher to judge statistically for sure. We are getting better with more advanced ways to track players though. Rules on defense have also changed so it can make it even harder to judge that way as well. Bird was a better play maker on defense I will give you that and it is a major reason why the stats you mentioned favor him (plus pace adjustment). Lebron has done a lot on the defensive end as an anchor/team defender (something Bird had on his team already) and as the guy who guards the top player when it matters. In fact the lack of having a great defender in the post is a huge flaw in many of Lebron's teams (which is made up for by overall talent) which leads to him needing more responsibility on that end.

I am fine agreeing to disagree on this subject as stated. When it comes to the 2nd bold though I definitely agree and it is part of what I am arguing with the other poster about their longevity, they are almost at the same amounts played right now.

It's up for debate on defense between the 2 but everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

ghettosean
01-03-2015, 10:01 PM
This!!!!

No player has ever gotten better playing with Lebron nor ever became a star. In fact other stars get worse playing with him even Bosh said that and we are seeing it from Love now.

So that's on Lebron and not the fact that maybe there was no one there who could've been a star anyway? Tell me one person who could've bencome a superstar that Lebron has played with?

He said star in his quote not superstar and Carlos Boozer is an example he made the all star game a few times after he left Cleveland and made some great pay days in free agency.

bucketss
01-03-2015, 11:18 PM
He said star in his quote not superstar and Carlos Boozer is an example he made the all star game a few times after he left Cleveland and made some great pay days in free agency.

how many seasons did he play with bron? didn't he leave after lebrons rookie year?

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 12:22 AM
He said star in his quote not superstar and Carlos Boozer is an example he made the all star game a few times after he left Cleveland and made some great pay days in free agency.

Boozer played 1 season with Lebron. Boozer didn't make the ASG until 3 years after he left Cleveland, showing that there was more seasoning that needed to be done. Not to mention Lebron was like 19 years old at the time.

What kind of ******** are you trying to pull here?

Sean Moore
01-04-2015, 03:46 AM
As I said it will come down to what someone values. I have Russell behind other players as well where you would probably disagree but he wasn't great on the offensive side of the ball like all of the other greats on the list. I agree about the FMVP's though. Accolades wise Russell has an amazing argument but it is the stats/impact where he falls off imo as I feel his teams were a major part of the accolades. I wasn't around to see him play and will openly admit that it might play a part of my judgements but from what I have seen and heard about the 2 I have wilt as a top 3 player and Russell close to 10 (west probably around 13 but I'll let you two discuss him). I have watched plenty of video of past NBA but these two are a couple of the hardest to get a lot of tape on. Just my opinion.

I agree that Russell was very fortunate to be in a very good situation. Still, eleven championships in thirteen seasons is a major accomplishment. If you give lebron credit for his four MVP's, then you have to give Russell credit for his five. From an accolade and legacy standpoint, there are none who match Russell which is why I believe him to be top ten without a doubt. His defense and leadership was unrivaled as well with only Magic in my humble opinion as the only one who could have an argument over leadership to Russell. As an individual talent, well that's another story.


I disagree about the peak argument for Bird as they were quite similar all around talents in their peak but Lebron's defense gives him an edge. Anyways even so Lebron currently has more ppg (and total pts), apg (and total assists), better PER, TS%, WS, WS/48, ORTG. He has an advantage in all of these except the assists in the playoffs as well (advanced by even bigger gaps).

Regular season advanced stats don't really tell the whole story as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather go by playoffs and what a player meant to his team and how he matched up against his rivals. Bird is slightly more decorated with more finals appearances and rings to boot. As well as being the better finals performer. He also was top notch against the best of the best. Bird also had some declining years to factor in as well. His three to four year peak was unrivaled. If Lebron could win a ring in Cleveland decisively, then he would be ranked over Bird for sure. Until then, I give Bird the edge.


It isn't solely the MVPS but also that Lebron was the best player in the league when he won them as well (feel free to argue against this but I don't think it was just media bias or anything). Lebron outside of 2011 has been the leader of his team every year. Larry was surrounded by incredible talent throughout his career while Lebron is now on year 5 of anything resembling that group Bird played with. Bird himself questioned if Lebron's 2012 was the best playoff run we have ever seen from a player. Bird actually had his PER and WS/48 drop come playoff time whereas Lebron's was about the same in regular season and playoffs. With all of this I disagree with the notion of Bird being the better playoff performer.

Bird was the better playoff performer for sure. He faced far greater rivals than Lebron faced in today's NBA in the eastern conference. Lebron vs. top ranked teams in the playoffs is his greatest weakness. While Bird did have his share of meltdowns, overall he performed better against top ranked teams in the playoffs with similar level talent at his side. Birds trips to the finals were far more impressive and he has more of them. As well as championships. If we really want to start brining other opinions into this as credible sources, I'm sure it wouldn't be to Lebron's advantage. Though Lebron did have a very good run in 2012 I agree, I would hardly consider it the best ever. See Michael Jordan.


There are tons of factors and everyone will weight them differently but to say Lebron needs more longevity to be in the conversation doesn't make much sense, especially when he is right there with Bird in games and minutes played.

Good point. Bird didn't have the best longevity, but I still feel in terms of legacy and impact he has him beat.

Sean Moore
01-04-2015, 03:51 AM
True but it is especially true in defensive rating and the way it is calculated. Also while Bird has a 1 pt advantage on Lebron in the regular season Lebron has a 3 pt drtg advantage in the post season. The accolades may not always be agreeable but on the defensive end they are hugely in favor of Lebron. You already agreed Lebron has the defensive edge so it seems you are just arguing to argue here.

I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment, just that specific logic. Bird was the weaker defender for sure. Though Bird was a great disrupter and a very underrated defender. The gap is not all that great and Lebron's defense is overrated just as Kobe's to a certain degree. Though there were a few years where Lebron was a beast defensively. Like Kobe, Lebron was warranted some undeserved first team and second team selections. Which is precisely why I would not use those team selections as evidence of anything.

Sean Moore
01-04-2015, 03:56 AM
This!!!!

No player has ever gotten better playing with Lebron nor ever became a star. In fact other stars get worse playing with him even Bosh said that and we are seeing it from Love now.

That is a good point, though I wouldn't harp on it so much if the team still overachieved. If a player stuffs their stat sheet and still pulls off a win then I can't really argue. I would only bring this up to people who claim Lebron to make his teammates better. I don't really see that many who do make that claim so it's a moot point. While their stats do decline playing with him, they still get a ton more open looks and conserve a lot of energy on the offensive end that they can use on the defensive end.

Sean Moore
01-04-2015, 03:59 AM
It's up for debate on defense between the 2 but everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

That's true, but it's all about how well you can defend that opinion.

mngopher35
01-04-2015, 05:04 AM
I agree that Russell was very fortunate to be in a very good situation. Still, eleven championships in thirteen seasons is a major accomplishment. If you give lebron credit for his four MVP's, then you have to give Russell credit for his five. From an accolade and legacy standpoint, there are none who match Russell which is why I believe him to be top ten without a doubt. His defense and leadership was unrivaled as well with only Magic in my humble opinion as the only one who could have an argument over leadership to Russell. As an individual talent, well that's another story.

His accolades are what carry him into the conversation for me is the point I am making. I do give him credit for having the accolades and Defense/leadership but like I said he is the only player around this level with that little impact on the offensive side of the ball. I try and separate the individual from how good his support is and to me that is where Russell falls a little more for me than others (but still right in that 9-11 range). No doubt some will have him in the top 5 and I really won't argue it to much it is just my opinion.


Regular season advanced stats don't really tell the whole story as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather go by playoffs and what a player meant to his team and how he matched up against his rivals. Bird is slightly more decorated with more finals appearances and rings to boot. As well as being the better finals performer. He also was top notch against the best of the best. Bird also had some declining years to factor in as well. His three to four year peak was unrivaled. If Lebron could win a ring in Cleveland decisively, then he would be ranked over Bird for sure. Until then, I give Bird the edge.

When I look at and judge a player I consider the entire body of work so for me Lebron performing better throughout the regular season is something I definitely take into account. Yes Bird is slightly more decorated with the finals appearances and rings but as stated Lebron has been on a team near that talented for 4 full years while Bird was surrounded by a great team within his first couple of years (once they got Parish especially in his 2nd year). Just because Lebron couldn't carry the mo williams and big Z teams to a title doesn't knock him down in a comparison to Bird for me. Lebron's finals numbers also take a dip because of this and the way Spurs were able to defend that 2007 Cavs team with no other player to worry about but I see that year as a + for him. Overall I agree though that Bird's finals performances were better since Lebron had the 2011 disaster too.

You say Bird was top notch against the best of the best but he had some pretty rough outings in that department actually too. In the year after the first title he averaged 18.3 ppg on 41% shooting in a 7 game losing series vs. Dr J and the sixers. The next year they played a lesser Bucks team and he once again struggled. These weren't finals performances but still certainly show he has bad moments too. Both players have had their ups and downs in the playoffs is what I am trying to point out but overall Lebron produced at a better rate and was able to at least sustain his regular season numbers while Larry actually dropped off a bit due to some of his poor performances. Even when solely looking at the peak years for each and narrowing it down Lebron has the advantage still, at least with the numbers I mentioned before.

Just to throw this in since I have focused on some negatives it should be pointed out that each player had very impressive runs in the years they won Finals MVP's and MVP's and a couple others as well. I am just showing that the reason Bird's numbers take a dip is because of how he played in those down years which you seem to not take into account with the top notch against best of best comment. If we are talking about what each player meant for their team then it can be argued in the titles Lebron was more important with his higher usage, more WS and overall efficiency, play making, injuries to the team, and need as a defender/versatility. I am not saying this is completely true but I would like your explanation for giving the edge to Bird here.




Bird was the better playoff performer for sure. He faced far greater rivals than Lebron faced in today's NBA in the eastern conference. Lebron vs. top ranked teams in the playoffs is his greatest weakness. While Bird did have his share of meltdowns, overall he performed better against top ranked teams in the playoffs with similar level talent at his side. Birds trips to the finals were far more impressive and he has more of them. As well as championships. If we really want to start brining other opinions into this as credible sources, I'm sure it wouldn't be to Lebron's advantage. Though Lebron did have a very good run in 2012 I agree, I would hardly consider it the best ever. See Michael


I was just pointing out that one of the people in this discussion has given his own opinion on Lebron's run. Bird was not necessarily the better playoff performer as already shown, he actually decreased production while the other maintained (and this is maintaining a higher performance). What Bird has is that his performances came against tougher competition more than Lebron's did but it was with completely mixed results too (just like Lebron with 2011 then 2012 follow up). This would explain why the statistical gap is large though and brings a little bit of context to that.

Overall it comes down to how you view each player and what you give more credit to. However, Lebron is in that conversation right now without needing anymore accolades/longevity which you were saying he needed before. I believe there was a vote this summer on here between these two and it was close so it is a debate many people are probably having and for valid reasons. Personally though I have Lebron just over Bird on my all time list, probably by one spot (and nothing is ever set in stone especially if something new is brought to my attention that maybe I have overlooked). If you don't have him that high it is totally fine but I think there is a great argument for him (also one can be made against, that's what happens when discussing the greats). If you have more to add I like discussing players so keep it coming.

Dade County
01-04-2015, 05:13 AM
Lbj is a business man, he doesn't really care about how NBA history will look at him.

He could have set himself apart and been right underneath Jordan, but he chose to give into the illusion of parity.

Everything went down hill for him when he gave Dallas a ring. He could have won 4 straight titles, then for his 5th one, sign back with the Cav's (like he has done); and win one for Cleveland.

If he doesn't care, no one should waste their time caring too.

mngopher35
01-04-2015, 05:19 AM
I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment, just that specific logic. Bird was the weaker defender for sure. Though Bird was a great disrupter and a very underrated defender. The gap is not all that great and Lebron's defense is overrated just as Kobe's to a certain degree. Though there were a few years where Lebron was a beast defensively. Like Kobe, Lebron was warranted some undeserved first team and second team selections. Which is precisely why I would not use those team selections as evidence of anything.

I do agree about the disruptor part about Bird but overall I too think Lebron was better (counted on more and more versatile too). I would agree with the all defensive team thing for Kobe and Lebron, my guess is Lebron will still get a couple now even when he really doesn't deserve it (lack of effort at this point in his career which is somewhat normal).

I do think that making the first team many times and being 2nd in dpoy a couple times is the sign of a pretty good defender, at least for a few years though. It was a quick lazy response to a post using regular season defensive rating difference of one point as the argument.

Chronz
01-04-2015, 05:33 AM
New Jersey and Philly both had some pretty tough series to make it to the finals as well. In comparison to their own strength that is.
I disagree, that they had a few tough series isn't in question. Remember when Boston won the title but lost more games in a series vs the sub.500 Hawks than they did against a better version of that same Detroit team in 2008, would you say the Hawks represented the greater obstacle because of it? Them being tough series isn't what Im contesting, Im suggesting that they shouldn't have been all that close based on the talent/efficiency differential between the 2 clubs.

If we are basing the strength of each team and its closest competitor based on any objective measure, the Cavs are the only squad to rank behind their comp in multiple barometers. You can contextualize this by delving deeper, but the fact that they won without holding HCA is something that stands out regardless.


Other than the impressive game five Lebron had against Detroit, nothing really stands out all that note worthy in comparison to Iverson's and Kidd's impressive runs as well.
That game 5 represents one of the greatest playoff games (from a superstar) of the recent era, so its a pretty good start. And I choose not to measure players by any small frame shot, if you look at the entirety of the playoff run, Bron crushes their performances.


I could nitpick and add that Boobie Gibson was the MVP of the closing game six that got the Cavs to the finals that year. Or that McDyess being ejected early in game five is what opened up the lane for Lebron to make all those consecutive layups against Detroit in the 4th and OT.
That would be nitpicking, considering winning is ultimate the result of all members involved. I credit the individual for their part, AI was the least impressive by far. His team was elite defensively and a 1 man show offensively, pretty much what the Cavs were, only Bron actually held a hand in his teams elite defensive showing wjereas AI pretty much had to be hidden and forced his PG to defend his own position. Offensively, Bron was the superior producer so any sort of defensive liabilities become magnified. The Sixers literally won playoff games with him chucking like 30 shots on 19% shooting, and its because he was on a defense that could hold the leagues best offense to putrid numbers.

Kidd may have an argument but it would have to start with something he did defensively because I think Bron holds the advantage on the other end.

Chronz
01-04-2015, 05:59 AM
I never said Lebron should retire but I was stating that if his legacy becomes better when he's winning then why does losing not affect it.
Because that is effectively punishing a player for not retiring. I dont see how you dont see it. I already have Bron in the Top10/11 area, and I dont particularly think hes much further back from the next tier, and once you're in that conversation, you can be argued anywhere between like 4 players. Winning determines just how much of a cap we can have on your playoff run, however much credit you want to apply is something we all tend to differ on.


He just turned 30 years old he's not an old man or anything and since so many people are comparing him to Jordan then MJ won his last title at the age of 35.
Only 1 person has compared to the standard that is MJ, thats not exactly a damning argument when most people figure he moves well into the rest of the top 9 players. Also, its not about winning, its about the complete package when its all said and done.

But for argument sake, in a comp vs MJ, he came in much sooner and is playing in a different league vs different comp, so its not an apples to apples comparison. MJ got help and talented prospects within a few losing years, Bron was overachieving with the likes of Mo Williams as his side kick. This had 2 damaging ramifications for his teams talent, they were too good a regular season team to get any good draft picks (not to mention they were irresponsible with the draft trades they did make) but they were lacking the kind of secondary player who actually sustained (if not raise) his game in the playoffs.



I don't want him to retire over playing but if Jordan clanked that last shot in 1998 and lost in the finals... Lets say he lost the last 2 years in a row to Utah I guarantee that his legacy would have taken a hit and we would not be crowning him the GOAT.
All players go through that, thats why Im arguing against taking away their achievements. Heres my argument, what if instead of taking away championships from MJ, you simply say he never retired. He finishes with the same amount of rings but instead of retiring in between the 2 3-peats, he simply makes the ECF and loses in 7 while willing an undermanned squad to great lengths. Lets say instead of retiring after winning his 6th, he plays 1 more season with whatever team you want to name. Do 3 ADDITIONAL All-NBA caliber seasons detract from his legacy because he didn't win? Even though he wound up winning 6 of the most impressive rings we've ever seen? The only real difference is that MJ's standings on the scoring list, MVP lists etc.. would likely have been higher because of that added longevity.

Longevity can NEVER be a bad thing.


This is why I asked the question in regards to Lebron and would his legacy take a hit or lower in your mind.
If the answer to the Q above is that you hold MJ in higher regard because of 3 additional All-NBA seasons despite losing, then you will understand me. If you think MJ losing somehow hurts his legacy, then we will never agree on this.


All players need to deal with new challenges and it's a different east because he bolted from his team in Miami and went back to Cleveland but he's always been in the east so that doesn't hold much weight for me to be honest.
I dont see your point. Its a different East because of alot of variables outside 1 man. He bolted for all the right reasons IMO. It would have been worse for him to stay in such a rudderless situation in Cleveland and it was right to come back to try anew.


Also you left out Larry Bird and Jordan out of your list.
Huh?


I'm not saying Irving is the best PG in the east I'm saying he's definitely the best #2 player Lebron has had with any of his previous teammates in Cleveland and Kevin Love is in the same argument as in the past people have said he doesn't have enough help but since he's made it to the finals with less (according to most) and his current roster isn't that poor (with all star and superstar talent) I don't think they even had a 6th man on his other teams and they have Waiters now to play that role (even if not playing well now he's still better than anything they had in the past) unless you want to use Donyell Marshall or something as a comparison.
The point remains, the best #2 argument isn't really that impressive when you consider just how talented the league has gotten at the position over the last few years. Something you seem to think is related to Bron leaving is beyond nonsensical. Him leaving only helped that situation but that doesn't change the argument I've made. The East is different, its in question just how much of PEAK Bron we will be able to see. I'll let the playoffs answer that.
Also, if you think Waiters is some how a player worth mentioning, we're not going to agree on how to measure talent/production. Waiters wouldn't have played at all on his past 60 win clubs.


It's not that I disagree with your overall opinion as I rank Lebron close to where you do all time though he is not in my top 10 which you are iffy about as well but he has more support on this squad than previously in Cleveland Kyrie, Love, Lebron, Marion and Tristan Thompson or Verjeao (Though he is hurt now) is better than anything that Lebron had in the past on his championship run in Cleveland (better than any team he's had in a cavs uniform really).
I still dont think this is the same Bron and that his decline had already begun in Miami when his defense and efficiency first began to suffer. Hes at the stage where his playoff performances will weigh in on how much hes cruising. When Bron lost the weight, he was making a similar decision to the one Kobe made after he couldn't sustain his +220lb physique. Its a choice towards longevity but its also a decision to save the best for the playoffs. I will judge Bron on how he plays. I cant answer any of your vague hypotheticals because its more than just about 1 man.


It might just be me but if people are going to say Lebron did so much with nothing than if he can't do anything with a significantly better at 30 then I'm not sure what to think when ranking him all time. It definitely wouldn't impress me for one and that he did all this with nothing talk would fly out the window to me.
I dont see how.

Chronz
01-04-2015, 06:06 AM
So how did you just disagree with every point I made about MJ vs LBJ... Then come up with the exact same conclusion that LBJ is on Moses level?

I'm not upset. I'm actually impressed.
Because we differ on why they are at the level they are. The points you made are hallow, Pippen was ahead of his time. Lots of players have played alongside MJ, it takes a special kind of person to thrive in that sort of atmosphere, and a special kind of coaching staff to harbor all those egos. Thats why Pippen credits Phil for turning MJ into the kind of leader he could learn from. Pippen had the tools and the mindset to learn. I credit HIM for that, not anyone else. Its also 100% subjective, the truth is, we will never know how someone like Pippen would have done somewhere else, MJ threatened to quit whenever trade rumors centered around him. And its not like MJ was the only guy he could have learned from. Your argument about becoming Glen Rice is a farce.

chitownbulls
01-04-2015, 06:33 AM
With all the advancement of nutrition, training and medical fields who knows what he would have accomplished. I personally think with the luxury of today's players that he would eat this league alive but that's just my opinion.

This. First of all, I can't even fathom that he would play 40 minutes a night dropping 30 points in those retro Jordan's. My feet would fall off

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 02:43 PM
JB has gone on full troll mode on Lebron ever since he realized Lebron is closing the gap on Jordan. I mean he won't pass Jordan so not sure what you are so worried about. Let the man slide into 2nd place in peace.



So that's on Lebron and not the fact that maybe there was no one there who could've been a star anyway? Tell me one person who could've bencome a superstar that Lebron has played with?




how many seasons did he play with bron? didn't he leave after lebrons rookie year?



Boozer played 1 season with Lebron. Boozer didn't make the ASG until 3 years after he left Cleveland, showing that there was more seasoning that needed to be done. Not to mention Lebron was like 19 years old at the time.

What kind of ******** are you trying to pull here?


Boozer was a bad example I'll admit that as you posed a hypothetical question and I could give a hypothetical answer like Norris Cole or something and then we can go back and forth forever but I won't. To make it clear Pippen has praised Jordan in the past saying he helped him reach his full potential this is coming from Pippen so if you both want to go against what the man says then that's your prerogative.

As for Lebrons exteammates on the heat I don't really hear any praises at all Bosh saying he was frustrating to play with, Wade saying he put too much pressure on all of us and it was like a black cloud over us last season, Chalmers pretty much saying he'll get in your face if things aren't going his way:


Chris Bosh:

“You still have to go through things, you still have to figure out things on your own. It’s extremely difficult and extremely frustrating. He’s going to have to deal with that.”

Dwyane Wade:


“Sometimes you can put too much on yourself, all of us, and it becomes a black cloud around. Last year wasn’t fun. I mean, there was no stretch of it [that was] fun. That whole season, to me, it’s amazing we made it to the Finals. It’s just honest.”

Mario Chalmers:


“LeBron is a dominant player so if he feels like something is not going his way, he’s going to say something about it. For Kyrie, he’s going to have to adjust to that and LeBron is going to have to adjust to Kyrie.”

You just don't see or hear anything from his teammates saying he elevated my game or he made me better and if you do I'm sure the amount of backlash from teammates out weigh his praises for making players better. That's just the difference between the 2 and I know you are both on record saying that Lebron is #2 or bucketts I believe I remember you saying he's better than Jordan. These are silly comments and we all know it I could go deeper than that but I won't.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 02:46 PM
Because that is effectively punishing a player for not retiring. I dont see how you dont see it. I already have Bron in the Top10/11 area, and I dont particularly think hes much further back from the next tier, and once you're in that conversation, you can be argued anywhere between like 4 players. Winning determines just how much of a cap we can have on your playoff run, however much credit you want to apply is something we all tend to differ on.


I think we see this differently and my Jordan reference which I'll get into is a perfect example if he lost his last 2 finals appearances. If Lebron throws every pass he tries out of bounds and is the reason his team is losing should that not affect his legacy. Keep in mind we are not talking about him like a Karl Malone or Steve Nash joining the lakers at the age of 40 we are talking about Lebron being the center piece of his team at the age of 30 years old and playing with young all star and superstar talents.



Only 1 person has compared to the standard that is MJ, thats not exactly a damning argument when most people figure he moves well into the rest of the top 9 players. Also, its not about winning, its about the complete package when its all said and done.

I was only saying this because you said winning enhances a legacy but are not refer to losing and it's affects on a legacy.



But for argument sake, in a comp vs MJ, he came in much sooner and is playing in a different league vs different comp, so its not an apples to apples comparison. MJ got help and talented prospects within a few losing years, Bron was overachieving with the likes of Mo Williams as his side kick. This had 2 damaging ramifications for his teams talent, they were too good a regular season team to get any good draft picks (not to mention they were irresponsible with the draft trades they did make) but they were lacking the kind of secondary player who actually sustained (if not raise) his game in the playoffs.


See this is what bothers me is that everyone refers to Lebron as having no help and now that he has all star and superstar talents at his side and he is the leader of the squad only if he does well will it enhance his legacy but it cannot hinder it if he achieves little to no success.


All players go through that, thats why Im arguing against taking away their achievements. Heres my argument, what if instead of taking away championships from MJ, you simply say he never retired. He finishes with the same amount of rings but instead of retiring in between the 2 3-peats, he simply makes the ECF and loses in 7 while willing an undermanned squad to great lengths. Lets say instead of retiring after winning his 6th, he plays 1 more season with whatever team you want to name. Do 3 ADDITIONAL All-NBA caliber seasons detract from his legacy because he didn't win? Even though he wound up winning 6 of the most impressive rings we've ever seen? The only real difference is that MJ's standings on the scoring list, MVP lists etc.. would likely have been higher because of that added longevity.

Longevity can NEVER be a bad thing.

Lets make this more apples to apples so its more like a Lebron scenario what if he had a top 10 player in the league at the time like Pippen (Lebron has Love) and a great supporting cast and lost in the ECF twice.

That would 100% affect his legacy in my mind and I'm sure others as well.

We may need to agree to disagree if you don't get my point.



I dont see your point. Its a different East because of alot of variables outside 1 man. He bolted for all the right reasons IMO. It would have been worse for him to stay in such a rudderless situation in Cleveland and it was right to come back to try anew.


The east changed originally to battle the Miami heat when Lebron formed his superteam. When he left there was more of a balance again in the east and he got to bring Love from the west. Either way he's been in the eastern conference the entire time anyway so the point is really moot.


Huh?

Nevermind I was commenting on your list of players not playing defense at 30 years old or older.


The point remains, the best #2 argument isn't really that impressive when you consider just how talented the league has gotten at the position over the last few years. Something you seem to think is related to Bron leaving is beyond nonsensical. Him leaving only helped that situation but that doesn't change the argument I've made. The East is different, its in question just how much of PEAK Bron we will be able to see. I'll let the playoffs answer that.

Lebron has a superstar and an all star at his side... Not many out there are better than Love and Kyrie has the best handles of an PG in the league. I'm just saying he's had more help than he has ever had in Cleveland before.

To simplify he should be able to do more with more.


Also, if you think Waiters is some how a player worth mentioning, we're not going to agree on how to measure talent/production. Waiters wouldn't have played at all on his past 60 win clubs.

I'm comparing him to players off the bench like Donyell Marshall saying Waiters is better is not a stretch at all.


I still dont think this is the same Bron and that his decline had already begun in Miami when his defense and efficiency first began to suffer. Hes at the stage where his playoff performances will weigh in on how much hes cruising. When Bron lost the weight, he was making a similar decision to the one Kobe made after he couldn't sustain his +220lb physique. Its a choice towards longevity but its also a decision to save the best for the playoffs. I will judge Bron on how he plays. I cant answer any of your vague hypotheticals because its more than just about 1 man.

I agree with you regarding it's more than just about Lebron but that has been my point in our discussions. If he can do more with less as so many are saying he had no help on his previous squads in Cleveland than shouldn't he be able to do more with more???

I understand he might not be the same player but that's when great players adjust there games (Jordan was a great example he would always go to the rim in his early years. There was not 3 second violation back then so he would get abused badly in a more physical era for going inside all the time to the basket. When he realized his body wouldn't be able to take it much longer he changed his game and developed the fadeaway and then became the best post up player in the league). Beyond the Micheal example you can look at mental toughness and pain threshold look at Kobe or Iverson as they would fight through pain and injuries because of there desire to win as they did not take what they had at the time for granted. Even Bird I remember went down in a game banged his head got a concussion still came back and won the game for the Celtics.

To me if Lebron is not the same he should do what other greats have done before him and adjust his game and again he's 30 years old (Kobe and Jordan were still winning rings past this age and both adjusted there games to accommodate for there body and age at that time). I think Lebron may be trying to do this but with very little success but if he can't do more with more than his legacy would take a hit in my mind.

We may have to agree to disagree on this point though.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 02:57 PM
In addition for those comparing Bird to Lebron when it comes to competitiveness there is no comparison between the 2 players Bird was just more mentally tough than Lebron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQpWgcUaeh4 (Larry Bird was in the hospital the night before he even played this game... He also got a CONCUSSION DURING THE GAME and still came out and played and won the series for the Celtics)

I'm not bashing Lebrons cramping issues or anything like that in the finals but it just shows how mentally tough Larry Bird was in comparison and the things he overcame. I thought I'd give a quick history clip since people are forgetting how great Larry really was and the stuff legends are made of...

Chronz
01-04-2015, 03:41 PM
I think we see this differently and my Jordan reference which I'll get into is a perfect example if he lost his last 2 finals appearances.
If Lebron throws every pass he tries out of bounds and is the reason his team is losing should that not affect his legacy. Keep in mind we are not talking about him like a Karl Malone or Steve Nash joining the lakers at the age of 40 we are talking about Lebron being the center piece of his team at the age of 30 years old and playing with young all star and superstar talents.
The overall performance is what counts but what is already written in stone can not be undone. That would be punishing a player for contributing instead of retiring.


I was only saying this because you said winning enhances a legacy but are not refer to losing and it's affects on a legacy.
Because even a losing season is a great contribution (as opposed to retiring). Winning simply caps that enhancement.



See this is what bothers me is that everyone refers to Lebron as having no help and now that he has all star and superstar talents at his side and he is the leader of the squad only if he does well will it enhance his legacy but it cannot hinder it if he achieves little to no success.
Thats because its still going to be a positive contributor to his career. Not every great player wins every year with great talent. And I've already elaborated on why we dont agree on his roster support.


Lets make this more apples to apples so its more like a Lebron scenario what if he had a top 10 player in the league at the time like Pippen (Lebron has Love) and a great supporting cast and lost in the ECF twice.

That would 100% affect his legacy in my mind and I'm sure others as well.

We may need to agree to disagree if you don't get my point.
LOL did you really just compare Kevin Love to Scottie Pippen in an attempt to make this apples to apples? And you still havent addressed the issue of Bron coming in at a younger age.

Yea we're definitely gonna have to disagree because your point makes no sense. I dont agree with your notion that its better to retire than play at a high level. I dont understand how you dont get that. How could moving UP the scoring ranks and providing a level of play that few reach is somehow detracting from a players greatness instead of enhancing it.

Really make sense of that for me. He still has the SAME rings, but because he has more "losing seasons" that are impressive individually, hes a lesser player? Not gonna be able to do it.



The east changed originally to battle the Miami heat when Lebron formed his superteam. When he left there was more of a balance again in the east and he got to bring Love from the west. Either way he's been in the eastern conference the entire time anyway so the point is really moot.
Agree to disagree, I dont think you know the intentions of every roster transaction enough and your argument would have to be much more detailed to convince anyone. I'm not gonna ask that of you because it should be obvious many moves were done out of the simple need to upgrade talent. These moves happen no matter where Bron is.


Nevermind I was commenting on your list of players not playing defense at 30 years old or older.
Bird tried but he was already physically spent, he was hidden on inferior players even in his prime, mostly because McHale was such a beast defensively. MJ didn't deserve all his All-D accolades, thats for sure. But in terms of effort, I guess you could say they tried more than Bron does.



Lebron has a superstar and an all star at his side... Not many out there are better than Love and Kyrie has the best handles of an PG in the league. I'm just saying he's had more help than he has ever had in Cleveland before.

To simplify he should be able to do more with more.

Yes I know what you're trying to say, I've already elaborated on why its not that simple.
To simplify, this isn't the same Bron and his playoff performance will define more than anything, the competition is different(unknown). The league has evolved to the point where having an All-Star caliber PG isn't the same difference maker it used to be (due to the PG position getting deeper every year) and Love isn't a Scottie Pippen type compliment. I know you want the game to be that simple but a team is more than just about 3 players bro. It just is.


I'm comparing him to players off the bench like Donyell Marshall saying Waiters is better is not a stretch at all.
There was never any confusion as to who you were comparing him to. Dude having talent isn't better than being productive/efficient. Hes better than Sasha Pavlovik thats for sure, but that a guy like Waiters is suppose to fill such a prominent role on this team is further evidence of it lacking any sort of proper chemistry. Waiters should be a 4th or 5th guard based on his poor play.


I understand he might not be the same player but that's when great players adjust there games (Jordan was a great example he would always go to the rim in his early years. There was not 3 second violation back then so he would get abused badly in a more physical era for going inside all the time to the basket. When he realized his body wouldn't be able to take it much longer he changed his game and developed the fadeaway and then became the best post up player in the league).
I love how you say MJ was a great example when really , hes been your primary example. You're holding him to a standard that few have reached and he doesn't differentiate Bron because he too has adapted over the years, his skill game has vastly improved from his youthful days. Sadly, players have an ascent, a peak and a decline. EVERYONE has that no matter how they adapt. MJ's decision extended his longevity but dont fool yourself into thinking he was a better player in his Final chip days than he was at the beginning of them, when he could do it all.



Beyond the Micheal example you can look at mental toughness and pain threshold look at Kobe or Iverson as they would fight through pain and injuries because of there desire to win as they did not take what they had at the time for granted.
Are you really trying to argue that pain threshold (something unique to each person through no control of their own) should some how factor into a players ranking? I dont care wtf they played through, all I care about are the results. Im not gonna give inferior specimens more credit for getting hurt more often.



Even Bird I remember went down in a game banged his head got a concussion still came back and won the game for the Celtics.
He also got in a bar fight and ****ed up his shooting hand, costing his championship caliber team the series (fyi, he shot horrendously). Every player has their warts, every player has their accomplishments. I judge players by longevity and impact on the game throughout. Subjective sob stories make for an interesting narrative, but they dont overrule what actually transpires on the court.


To me if Lebron is not the same he should do what other greats have done before him and adjust his game and again he's 30 years old (Kobe and Jordan were still winning rings past this age and both adjusted there games to accommodate for there body and age at that time). I think Lebron may be trying to do this but with very little success but if he can't do more with more than his legacy would take a hit in my mind.
He has adjusted his game, its still a decline. Some of the greats never even got the chance to prove how they could adjust, they simply didn't have the longevity due to bad luck or simply neglect.

FraziersKnicks
01-04-2015, 03:42 PM
I would love to see someone play basketball with bad cramp in their leg...

I think some posters need to step away from behind their computers and actually play some basketball and see if it's possible to even run with cramp.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 03:48 PM
Boozer was a bad example I'll admit that as you posed a hypothetical question and I could give a hypothetical answer like Norris Cole or something and then we can go back and forth forever but I won't. To make it clear Pippen has praised Jordan in the past saying he helped him reach his full potential this is coming from Pippen so if you both want to go against what the man says then that's your prerogative.

As for Lebrons exteammates on the heat I don't really hear any praises at all Bosh saying he was frustrating to play with, Wade saying he put too much pressure on all of us and it was like a black cloud over us last season, Chalmers pretty much saying he'll get in your face if things aren't going his way:



You just don't see or hear anything from his teammates saying he elevated my game or he made me better and if you do I'm sure the amount of backlash from teammates out weigh his praises for making players better. That's just the difference between the 2 and I know you are both on record saying that Lebron is #2 or bucketts I believe I remember you saying he's better than Jordan. These are silly comments and we all know it I could go deeper than that but I won't.

of all those quotes, only mario seems to be talking directly about lebron, bosh seems to be talking about his role, and wade is talking about the team, and hes right but wade put that pressure on himself, if im not mistaken, he was apart of that celebration in 2010 before they won anything, and he was laughing with lebron as he counted how many championships they would win.

and who can forget his comparision of a miami heat loss to 9/11.

Chronz
01-04-2015, 03:48 PM
In addition for those comparing Bird to Lebron when it comes to competitiveness there is no comparison between the 2 players Bird was just more mentally tough than Lebron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQpWgcUaeh4 (Larry Bird was in the hospital the night before he even played this game... He also got a CONCUSSION DURING THE GAME and still came out and played and won the series for the Celtics)

I'm not bashing Lebrons cramping issues or anything like that in the finals but it just shows how mentally tough Larry Bird was in comparison and the things he overcame. I thought I'd give a quick history clip since people are forgetting how great Larry really was and the stuff legends are made of...

Are you some kind of doctor? Or do you just pretend to understand human physiology ? Can you control cramping more than say controlling not getting in a bar fight and hurting your shooting hand. You know, kind of how you can control not punching a fire extinguisher. Guess Bird and Amare were hot heads.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 03:52 PM
i would also like to add pippen did say lebron is better than jordan, and he would kick his *** on a game of 1 on 1.

FlashBolt
01-04-2015, 03:59 PM
I have come to believe that people who have ever experienced a cramp and come on here saying it is maintainable -- are just trolls. Anyone legitimate can testify that a cramp limits your movements. It's why NUMEROUS amount of people have died while in deep water and experienced cramping. The fact some of you are calling LeBron out for having cramps while others have died in cramping situations, is just mind-boggling. I'm not even going to go into detail with why LeBron losing isn't going to impact his legacy just as much as if he won. He's already accomplished so much. LeBron has bagged the most amount of minutes in NBA up to 30 years old. No one has played more basketball than James has at this point of his age. Stop barraging these forums with silly accusations and inept logic because you disapprove of a certain player. At the end of the day, it's a fact he is top 10. You can disagree with that but give anyone a legitimate argument before you do so.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 04:00 PM
I would love to see someone play basketball with bad cramp in their leg...

I think some posters need to step away from behind their computers and actually play some basketball and see if it's possible to even run with cramp.

I specifically said I was not talking about Lebron cramping up in a finals loss I was talking about mental toughness but you don't really hear many players complain about not playing because of cramps so I couldn't find any comparison but here's another playoff moment of a player with only one leg to play on as somewhat of a comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQRYE-p1muA

Quote Isiah Thomas:


"If you are not strong enough mentally... to overcome and you can't persevere then you've fallen and you'll be like everyone else in the league"

Chronz
01-04-2015, 04:04 PM
You right, its not about cramps. But it shouldn't be about anything other than performance. We've already seen Larry cut down to size despite that mentality. We've also seen him win. Whats the point here?

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 04:08 PM
You right, its not about cramps. But it shouldn't be about anything other than performance. We've already seen Larry cut down to size despite that mentality. We've also seen him win. Whats the point here?

I gave the point twice in both videos I posted and the one I posted to you earlier regarding mental toughness being a weakness of Lebron.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 04:11 PM
i would also like to add pippen did say lebron is better than jordan, and he would kick his *** on a game of 1 on 1.

You are completely misquoting Pippen and he also retracted those statements so your point is moot.

http://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_news_pippen_gives_a_retraction/5270188

bucketss
01-04-2015, 04:22 PM
You are completely misquoting Pippen and he also retracted those statements so your point is moot.

http://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/nba_news_pippen_gives_a_retraction/5270188

yes. after everyone started bashing him in defense of their god jordan.

Chronz
01-04-2015, 04:32 PM
I gave the point twice in both videos I posted and the one I posted to you earlier regarding mental toughness being a weakness of Lebron.

Its arguably a weakness in Bird depending on your subjective interpretation of mental toughness.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 04:39 PM
yes. after everyone started bashing him in defense of their god jordan.

So do you believe Lebron is better than Jordan?

If not why are you even talking about this is it to argue for arguments sake???

(I don't expect you to really respond to this because I think you are just arguing just to argue)

LA_Raiders
01-04-2015, 04:41 PM
He needs a team with 3 top players to win.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 04:43 PM
Its arguably a weakness in Bird depending on your subjective interpretation of mental toughness.

Never heard anyone refer to Bird as being mentally weak... What do you mean by that?

Also I'm not avoiding your other post I'll respond when I have time It's just long and will take some time.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 04:58 PM
@Chronz

Just to add in regards to my last post regarding Bird I think playing in a game the next day after you've been in a hospital for back issues and then in the middle of a game getting a concussion then coming back not only to play but to win a playoff series was just an example of why I believe Bird is mentally tough.

I'm curious as to what basis you would consider him mentally weak.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 05:22 PM
So do you believe Lebron is better than Jordan?

If not why are you even talking about this is it to argue for arguments sake???

(I don't expect you to really respond to this because I think you are just arguing just to argue)

that wasn't really about who is better or not, but just to show you that jordan wasn't some super team mate, and guys like pippen obviously had some resentment towards him.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 05:23 PM
He needs a team with 3 top players to win.

im guessing if he had a pime shaq only, that wouldn't be enough, as shaq is only 1 top player.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 05:29 PM
that wasn't really about who is better or not, but just to show you that jordan wasn't some super team mate, and guys like pippen obviously had some resentment towards him.

Perhaps Scottie was simply be jealous???

How does you saying Lebron would beat Jordan 1 on 1 prove that he's not a good teammate? If Pippen said Jordan was not a good teammate instead of saying he pushed me and helped me reach my full potential that might help make your case.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 05:42 PM
Perhaps Scottie was simply be jealous???

How does you saying Lebron would beat Jordan 1 on 1 prove that he's not a good teammate? If Pippen said Jordan was not a good teammate instead of saying he pushed me and helped me reach my full potential that might help make your case.

he didn't only say lebron would win, he said he would kick his ***, all these comments are more shots at jordan than compliments to bron. and it does speak volumes to what kind of team mate jordan was, a guy who threw his team mates under the bus, but would rarely take any blame on himself.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 05:52 PM
Perhaps Scottie was simply be jealous???

How does you saying Lebron would beat Jordan 1 on 1 prove that he's not a good teammate? If Pippen said Jordan was not a good teammate instead of saying he pushed me and helped me reach my full potential that might help make your case.

he didn't only say lebron would win, he said he would kick his ***, all these comments are more shots at jordan than compliments to bron. and it does speak volumes to what kind of team mate jordan was, a guy who threw his team mates under the bus, but would rarely take any blame on himself.

Uh huh... I still don't see how what you are saying proves Jordan was a bad teammate or what it has to do with this conversation. If what you said has any truth to it it shows Scottie threw a jealous tantrum.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 05:57 PM
Uh huh... I still don't see how this proves Jordan was a bad teammate. If what you said has any truth to it it shows Scottie threw a jealous tantrum.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2012/10/michael-jordans-quotes-on-teammates-you-might-be-surprised/

jordan constantly bashed his team mates, i guess this is what you call a great teammate? him treating them like that i guess some how elevated their performance, i don't think pippen was jealous, he just had a lot of resentment towards jordan.

imagine lebron did any of this?

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 06:08 PM
Also I'm not saying Scottie was a bad teammate overall because I don't believe that in the slightest but he has had tantrums in the past when things don't go his way:

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-disgusted-pippen-sits-down-for-game-winning-play.html

This does not make Phil Jackson a bad coach it was just Pippen throwing a tantrum because things didn't go his way and he almost costed the bulls the game.

Scottie is on records saying Jordan helped him develop and playing against the best made him better so I'm not sure why you are so hell bent on refuting Scotties own words.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 06:11 PM
Boozer was a bad example I'll admit that as you posed a hypothetical question and I could give a hypothetical answer like Norris Cole or something and then we can go back and forth forever but I won't. To make it clear Pippen has praised Jordan in the past saying he helped him reach his full potential this is coming from Pippen so if you both want to go against what the man says then that's your prerogative.

Pretty sure I never said that Jordan didn't improve Pippen. I said you can't hold Lebron to that standard (JB said that Jordan "created" Pippen into a superstar) when Lebron has never had anyone that had superstar potential outside of Wade and Bosh, and those 2 were already established players in their own right before teaming with Lebron.


As for Lebrons exteammates on the heat I don't really hear any praises at all Bosh saying he was frustrating to play with, Wade saying he put too much pressure on all of us and it was like a black cloud over us last season, Chalmers pretty much saying he'll get in your face if things aren't going his way.

You just don't see or hear anything from his teammates saying he elevated my game or he made me better and if you do I'm sure the amount of backlash from teammates out weigh his praises for making players better. That's just the difference between the 2 and I know you are both on record saying that Lebron is #2 or bucketts I believe I remember you saying he's better than Jordan. These are silly comments and we all know it I could go deeper than that but I won't.

You shouldn't mistake lack of fit with one another with the idea of "creating a superstar", which is what the original issue was about. The issue here is the idea that Lebron didn't help others get better and you haven't shown anything like that. To get the most out of someone, the fit has to be right. And the fit wasn't there from day 1. Miami was just a pool of talent without proper construction. Just because Bosh and Lebron's games were not a good match doesn't mean Lebron can't get the most out of someone. It's not like Jordan adapted his game to Pippen. Pippen's game was complimentary to Jordan's. Lebron hasn't had anyone to compliment his game except for Mo Williams and Kyrie Irving.

The post you quoted also doesn't even say he's ALREADY #2, so not sure what you are talking about there.

Edit: Why does it even matter how he compares to Jordan? The majority here isn't saying he's better than Jordan so why is he going to be held to a standard he won't meet in your eyes? What does Jordan have to do with it if Lebron ends up 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc?

FraziersKnicks
01-04-2015, 06:12 PM
I specifically said I was not talking about Lebron cramping up in a finals loss I was talking about mental toughness but you don't really hear many players complain about not playing because of cramps so I couldn't find any comparison but here's another playoff moment of a player with only one leg to play on as somewhat of a comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQRYE-p1muA

Quote Isiah Thomas:

But cramps aren't a mental thing... If you aren't fully hydrated you get cramps and if you've ever played basketball and got cramps you damn well know however much mental strength you've got, you can't even ****ing walk.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 06:37 PM
I specifically said I was not talking about Lebron cramping up in a finals loss I was talking about mental toughness but you don't really hear many players complain about not playing because of cramps so I couldn't find any comparison but here's another playoff moment of a player with only one leg to play on as somewhat of a comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQRYE-p1muA

Quote Isiah Thomas:

But cramps aren't a mental thing... If you are fully hydrated you get cramps and if you've ever played basketball and got cramps you damn well know however much mental strength you've got, you can't even ****ing walk.

What did I say in my first sentence?

My example of Bird being in a hospital the night before for back issues and playing with a concussion during a game and Isiah playing with a sprained ankle (back issues, concussions, sprained ankle issues are also not mental things) but like in the Larry Bird example playing through the pain and winning a series like that is 100% a mental thing or as i called it "mental toughness".

I just don't believe Lebron is as mentally tough as the elite company he's in. If he was as mentally tough as say Larry Bird or Jordan he could have bested Jordan as I believe he had the physical gifts to do be the GOAT but he just didn't have the mental toughness and drive to win that those guys did.

FraziersKnicks
01-04-2015, 06:44 PM
What did I say in my first sentence?

My example of Bird being in a hospital the night before for back issues and playing with a concussion during a game and Isiah playing with a sprained ankle (back issues, concussions, sprained ankle issues are also not mental things) but like in the Larry Bird example playing through the pain and winning a series like that is 100% a mental thing or as i called it "mental toughness".

I just don't believe Lebron is as mentally tough as the elite company he's in. If he was as mentally tough as say Larry Bird or Jordan he could have bested Jordan as I believe he had the physical gifts to do be the GOAT but he just didn't have the mental toughness and drive to win that those guys did.

But how the hell can you quantify that?! LeBron has been one of the most durable players in NBA history. How do you know he hasn't played through injury? Are you dismissing LeBron's resilience to injury a reason why Bird is better?

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 06:55 PM
You shouldn't mistake lack of fit with one another with the idea of "creating a superstar", which is what the original issue was about. The issue here is the idea that Lebron didn't help others get better and you haven't shown anything like that. To get the most out of someone, the fit has to be right. And the fit wasn't there from day 1. Miami was just a pool of talent without proper construction. Just because Bosh and Lebron's games were not a good match doesn't mean Lebron can't get the most out of someone. It's not like Jordan adapted his game to Pippen. Pippen's game was complimentary to Jordan's. Lebron hasn't had anyone to compliment his game except for Mo Williams and Kyrie Irving.

The post you quoted also doesn't even say he's ALREADY #2, so not sure what you are talking about there.

Edit: Why does it even matter how he compares to Jordan? The majority here isn't saying he's better than Jordan so why is he going to be held to a standard he won't meet in your eyes? What does Jordan have to do with it if Lebron ends up 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc?

No one said anything about creating a "superstar" you were the first one to say that. Also I'm not talking about fit I'm talking about Jordan getting praise from teammates saying that he made them better where I said Lebron does not get that nor do I really believe that and even if for some reason Lebron did get praise saying he made someone better the criticism he received from teammates outweighs his praises of making players better (not turning them into superstars just simply making them better on the court).

Response to your edit:

It doesn't matter how he compares to Jordan it doesn't... You said he's going to be #2 on the all time list of greats I don't even know what else I need to say about that.

Do I really need to say anything else???

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 07:13 PM
But how the hell can you quantify that?! LeBron has been one of the most durable players in NBA history. How do you know he hasn't played through injury? Are you dismissing LeBron's resilience to injury a reason why Bird is better?

I'm not saying that Lebron is not as durable as Larry Bird I never once alluded to that. What I am and was saying his that Lebron is mentally weak compared to the elite company that he's close to...

I'll describe better below in regards to Lebron's mental toughness/weakness.



Uh huh... I still don't see how this proves Jordan was a bad teammate. If what you said has any truth to it it shows Scottie threw a jealous tantrum.

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2012/10/michael-jordans-quotes-on-teammates-you-might-be-surprised/

jordan constantly bashed his team mates, i guess this is what you call a great teammate? him treating them like that i guess some how elevated their performance, i don't think pippen was jealous, he just had a lot of resentment towards jordan.

imagine lebron did any of this?

Jordan was hard to get along with like Kobe that's for sure but those quotes were never public and he never threw anyone under a bus. He called them out when they played like **** like one of the quotes you gave:


“Headache tonight, Scottie?” – Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

That was classic... lol.

Look if you are comparing Jordans leadership to Lebrons I'm not even sure why you would bother but ok fine let's rap about it.

Jordan like Kobe and Bird didn't give a **** what anyone thought about them... no one!!!! All they wanted was to win and when you look at Lebrons leadership he doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and he just wants everyone to like him even above winning IMO. It just is what it is...

He should just go out there, play and not give a **** and if his teammates a screwing up then call them out. I honestly think Lebron had the physical gifts to best Jordan and be the greatest of all time but what I think killed him over his career was his lack of competitiveness and mental toughness. He has somewhat of a history of taking the easy road and if it's not easy he'll take just bail. Leaving Cleveland then forming a super team in miami was an example, leaving Miami was a 2nd (he admitted them not winning a ship that year prompted him to leave), him never entering a dunk contest then holding his own with "no competition" is another... etc.

He's just too afraid of losing (part of the reason I believe he's mentally weak)... the thing about players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that Mount Rushmore status.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 07:26 PM
I'm not saying that Lebron is not as durable as Larry Bird I never once alluded to that. What I am and was saying his that Lebron is mentally weak compared to the elite company that he's close to...

I'll describe better below in regards to Lebron's mental toughness/weakness.



Jordan was hard to get along with like Kobe that's for sure but those quotes were never public and he never threw anyone under a bus. He called them out when they played like **** like one of the quotes you gave:



That was classic... lol.

Look if you are comparing Jordans leadership to Lebrons I'm not even sure why you would bother but ok fine let's rap about it.

Jordan like Kobe and Bird didn't give a **** what anyone thought about them... no one!!!! All they wanted was to win and when you look at Lebrons leadership he doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and he just wants everyone to like him even above winning IMO. It just is what it is...

He should just go out there, play and not give a **** and if his teammates a screwing up then call them out. I honestly think Lebron had the physical gifts to best Jordan and be the greatest of all time but what I think killed him over his career was his lack of competitiveness and mental toughness. He has somewhat of a history of taking the easy road and if it's not easy he'll take just bail. Leaving Cleveland then forming a super team in miami was an example, leaving Miami was a 2nd (he admitted them not winning a ship that year prompted him to leave), him never entering a dunk contest then holding his own with "no competition" is another... etc.

He's just too afraid of losing (part of the reason I believe he's mentally weak)... the thing about players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that Mount Rushmore status.

thats because both kobe and jordan are egomaniacs, his trash talking isn't leader ship, hes just pissed and wants to disrespects his team mates. thats why you rarely see either kobe or jordan take any blame.


“He can’t do anything with the ball. Don’t give it to him.” – Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Purdue

is this leadership?



“They don’t need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that.” – Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

what about this?

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 07:38 PM
No one said anything about creating a "superstar" you were the first one to say that. .

What the hell are you talking about? I literally quoted a post trying to disprove Lebron saying "he can't create a star". They literally implied Jordan is the reason Pippen became a superstar while trying to bring down LEbron because he couldn't make lowly players like Daniel Gibson into a better player (despite the fact that he played his best seasons with Lebron or fail to mention Mo Williams became a better player with Lebron).

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?882611-The-legacy-of-Lebron-James&p=29466670#post29466670


Also I'm not talking about fit. I'm talking about Jordan getting praise from teammates saying that he made them better where I said Lebron does not get that nor do I really believe that and even if for some reason Lebron did get praise saying he made someone better the criticism he received from teammates outweighs his praises of making players better (not turning them into superstars just simply making them better on the court).

The idea that a player has to say out loud that "X player helped me improve my game" is foolish (people don't go around saying "X player helped me improve my game" doesn't happen too often and I'm pretty sure the quote Pippen said was dated after both were retired (when your teammates and others have a completely different tone than when you are playing with them or just left their team).

Not to mention the criticisms you brought up towards Lebron doesn't even indicate to say they didn't improve their game because it clearly talked about fit (Mario Chalmers literally talked about adjusting, which means trying to fit in. That doesn't mean Mario didn't improve as a player). Where in the 3 quotes from Wade/Bosh/Chalmers that you posted say anywhere that Lebron didn't help them improve their game?

You don't think Lebron (known for his efficiency) didn't help Wade become a more efficient scorer during their time together? Or that Bosh becoming a better defender had nothing to do with his teammate (Lebron and Battier) being a DPOY candidate and helping him? You don't think Lebron teached Chalmers how to read the court better to take better shots? You also fail to mention how Bosh and Wade were already farther along in their development than Pippen was so it's not like they had as much to learn as Pippen. How can a guy, who's known to be vocal and who many have said was a great leader (though some of those same guys probably backtracked becuase Lebron just burned them)

Is Lebron's ability to make his teammates better as good as Jordan's? Who knows, probably not. But how exactly does that affect his legacy or his rankings in an all time setting? The effect on that should be minimal.

But forget about all that for a second and follow the next part below.


It doesn't matter how he compares to Jordan it doesn't... You said he's going to be #2 on the all time list of greats I don't even know what else I need to say about that.

Do I really need to say anything else???

That's exactly the point. It doesn't matter how he compares to Jordan. Yet regardless of where people rank him (some have him 10, some 15, some 6, some 4, etc), he's being held to a standard to Jordan in order to bring him down when when bringing up Jordan isn't necessary into a conversation. Same with Kobe or and probably Durant in the future.

The second the idea of Lebron's legacy and all time ranking is in the conversation, we have to validate it by bringing in Jordan into the conversation. As opposed to looking at Lebron's body of work (which is int's right mind is impressive), we have to hold him to a standard we know he can't reach by comparing him to MJ. I can say Lebron is 10th all time and instead of comparing him against other players who are ranked between 8-12 to determine his place, there was way to many who compare him to Jordan just so they can say "he'll never be as good as Jordan", when the conversation doesn't warrant it.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 07:42 PM
The legacy of Jordon, or the perfect public perception never exist again. He was gifted the greatest surroundings a player could ask for, he also played in a time period where everything you did wasn't super over analyzed and your public life wasn't on the front page of every tabloid ...

Even Jordon isn't Jordon .. as a society we tend to turn figures into higher beings once they're gone

It'll never exist, yet we like to hold everyone to the standard of Jordan when it isn't warranted.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 07:49 PM
thats because both kobe and jordan are egomaniacs, his trash talking isn't leader ship, hes just pissed and wants to disrespects his team mates. thats why you rarely see either kobe or jordan take any blame.

is this leadership?

what about this?

Yea, a lot like to say Jordan brought out the best in everyone yet I always here Pippen as being the only example. Not once is Kobe or Lebron given credit for how their teammates improve their leadership.

FraziersKnicks
01-04-2015, 08:09 PM
I'm not saying that Lebron is not as durable as Larry Bird I never once alluded to that. What I am and was saying his that Lebron is mentally weak compared to the elite company that he's close to...

But you're using an example of playing through injury as a reason why Bird is mentally tougher than LeBron? You sound confused...



Jordan like Kobe and Bird didn't give a **** what anyone thought about them... no one!!!! All they wanted was to win and when you look at Lebrons leadership he doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and he just wants everyone to like him even above winning IMO. It just is what it is...

He wants everyone to like him? Then why the hell did he leave Cleveland and become one of the most hated men in America?!

He doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj1LIqGv1A0

He didn't call his teammates out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTIn1sBWnHQ


He should just go out there, play and not give a **** and if his teammates a screwing up then call them out. I honestly think Lebron had the physical gifts to best Jordan and be the greatest of all time but what I think killed him over his career was his lack of competitiveness and mental toughness. He has somewhat of a history of taking the easy road and if it's not easy he'll take just bail. Leaving Cleveland then forming a super team in miami was an example, leaving Miami was a 2nd (he admitted them not winning a ship that year prompted him to leave), him never entering a dunk contest then holding his own with "no competition" is another... etc.


You talk as if his career is over. How can you say he isn't competitive? Would he have been considered more competitive if he had stayed in Cleveland and received no help and never won a title? Settling for mediocre support is more competitive to you? He's mentally weak for not entering a dunk contest? God, you're clutching at straws now...


He's just too afraid of losing (part of the reason I believe he's mentally weak)... the thing about players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that Mount Rushmore status.

I love how you just throw out these remarks. You're questioning how much LeBron wants to win? Yet earlier you said he took the easy road to championships. If he didn't have the passion to win why did he leave the Cavs and become the villain of the NBA to win at all costs? Your argument has so many holes in it and that's because you're just clouded by your hatred for the guy.

Funny thing is, when it's all said and done, you think people will look at LeBron's MVP's, rings, accolades, stats, countless records and say "damn, he's not an NBA great because he was mentally weak and didn't wanna win" whilst he's sitting there with his Finals MVP's and championships?

People like you might, but the vast majority of the unbiased NBA fanbase will say "damn, he's an all-time great".

Your opinion of his mental weakness is exactly that... Your opinion (and a pretty biased one at that). You're clearly not a fan of LeBron judging from your sig, so I'm not even sure why I'm engaging in a debate with you, but the argument you are attempting to put forward is so empty.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 08:48 PM
But you're using an example of playing through injury as a reason why Bird is mentally tougher than LeBron? You sound confused...


I used that as an example for Bird being mentally tough yes (do you think otherwise???) but you are ignoring my examples of Lebron being mentally weak I'm sorry I don't have an example of Bird leaving his team...etc but here's the examples I used:


"Leaving Cleveland then forming a super team in miami was an example, leaving Miami was a 2nd (he admitted them not winning a ship that year prompted him to leave), him never entering a dunk contest then holding his own with "no competition" is another... etc."


You can respond to them if you like.


He wants everyone to like him? Then why the hell did he leave Cleveland and become one of the most hated men in America?!


He did not know the backlash would be like that Bosh, Wade and Bron are all on record saying that. Also Lebron did this because he thought it would enhance his legacy. It may have done that I'm not sure to be honest.



He doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj1LIqGv1A0


I already knew this is what you were going to bring up before I even watched it because it's the only one... LOL... but you can post another if you want. Also Lebron was mad about a play he himself screwed up and later apologised but you can also note that Mario was not backing away either nor did he give a **** what Lebron was barking about he was right back in his face.

He doesn't command the respect that you are trying to tell me he does.



He didn't call his teammates out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTIn1sBWnHQ

"Come on I need you guys"

That's calling them out??? Lebron is a hell of a nice guy!



You talk as if his career is over. How can you say he isn't competitive? Would he have been considered more competitive if he had stayed in Cleveland and received no help and never won a title? Settling for mediocre support is more competitive to you? He's mentally weak for not entering a dunk contest? God, you're clutching at straws now...


I addressed his competitiveness above in my first quote no need to go into it again but I'll add that he's clearly afraid to lose I'm not sure how you can refute that he's been begged by his own fans to enter the dunk contest, he says one year he will enter the dunk contest then he backs out because he's afraid of losing holds his own and then has the nerve to say if he would to enter the dunk contest he would win. He says he would win but he won't compete is a perfect example of his lack of competitiveness.

I'm surprised you are defending that.



I love how you just throw out these remarks. You're questioning how much LeBron wants to win? Yet earlier you said he took the easy road to championships. If he didn't have the passion to win why did he leave the Cavs and become the villain of the NBA to win at all costs? Your argument has so many holes in it and that's because you're just clouded by your hatred for the guy.

Funny thing is, when it's all said and done, you think people will look at LeBron's MVP's, rings, accolades, stats, countless records and say "damn, he's not an NBA great because he was mentally weak and didn't wanna win" whilst he's sitting there with his Finals MVP's and championships?

People like you might, but the vast majority of the unbiased NBA fanbase will say "damn, he's an all-time great".

Your opinion of his mental weakness is exactly that... Your opinion (and a pretty biased one at that). You're clearly not a fan of LeBron judging from your sig, so I'm not even sure why I'm engaging in a debate with you, but the argument you are attempting to put forward is so empty.


I didn't throw anything out I questioned Lebrons competitive nature and fear of losing and cited examples nothing you have said changes my mind on this issue. He takes the easy road or bails that's really all I have to say on the subject.

FraziersKnicks
01-04-2015, 09:06 PM
I used that as an example for Bird being mentally tough yes (do you think otherwise???) but you are ignoring my examples of Lebron being mentally weak I'm sorry I don't have an example of Bird leaving his team...etc but here's the examples I used:


"Leaving Cleveland then forming a super team in miami was an example, leaving Miami was a 2nd (he admitted them not winning a ship that year prompted him to leave), him never entering a dunk contest then holding his own with "no competition" is another... etc."

You still haven't answered my question...

Would he have been considered more competitive if he had stayed in Cleveland and received no help and never won a title? Settling for mediocre support is more competitive to you?

And please please stop with this whole dunk contest thing. Everyone knows the dunk contest is a pile of **** now. Are you really gonna bring that up as something that shows a lack of competitiveness to a degree that will affect his legacy? Really?




He did not know the backlash would be like that Bosh, Wade and Bron are all on record saying that. Also Lebron did this because he thought it would enhance his legacy. It may have done that I'm not sure to be honest.

Oh no, everyone would love LeBron doing that :rolleyes:




I already knew this is what you were going to bring up before I even watched it because it's the only one... LOL... but you can post another if you want. Also Lebron was mad about a play he himself screwed up and later apologised but you can also note that Mario was not backing away either nor did he give a **** what Lebron was barking about he was right back in his face.

He doesn't command the respect that you are trying to tell me he does.


So you're admitting you were wrong when you said he doesn't wanna hurt anyone's feelings? Because in that video he clearly doesn't give a damn about hurting Mario's feelings.



I addressed his competitiveness above in my first quote no need to go into it again but I'll add that he's clearly afraid to lose I'm not sure how you can refute that he's been begged by his own fans to enter the dunk contest, he says one year he will enter the dunk contest then he backs out because he's afraid of losing holds his own and then has the nerve to say if he would to enter the dunk contest he would win. He says he would win but he won't compete is a perfect example of his lack of competitiveness.

I'm surprised you are defending that.

Once again, the main backbone of your argument centers around an exhibition dunking contest. This is no way, shape or form affects someones legacy who has just turned 30 and has 4 MVP's, 2 rings and 2 Finals MVP's.


I didn't throw anything out I questioned Lebrons competitive nature and fear of losing and cited examples nothing you have said changes my mind on this issue. He takes the easy road or bails that's really all I have to say on the subject.

Which leads me back to another question you have failed to answer...

You're questioning how much LeBron wants to win? Yet earlier you said he took the easy road to championships. If he didn't have the passion to win why did he leave the Cavs and become the villain of the NBA to win at all costs?

Please try harder this time.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 09:09 PM
What the hell are you talking about? I literally quoted a post trying to disprove Lebron saying "he can't create a star". They literally implied Jordan is the reason Pippen became a superstar while trying to bring down LEbron because he couldn't make lowly players like Daniel Gibson into a better player (despite the fact that he played his best seasons with Lebron or fail to mention Mo Williams became a better player with Lebron).

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?882611-The-legacy-of-Lebron-James&p=29466670#post29466670



I completely addressed the quote you responded to that any praise he might have gotten not that I know he actually recieved is out weighed by ex teammates talking about frustrations in working/playing with him. I posted a link already showing a few btw.


The idea that a player has to say out loud that "X player helped me improve my game" is foolish (people don't go around saying "X player helped me improve my game" doesn't happen too often and I'm pretty sure the quote Pippen said was dated after both were retired (when your teammates and others have a completely different tone than when you are playing with them or just left their team).

Not to mention the criticisms you brought up towards Lebron doesn't even indicate to say they didn't improve their game because it clearly talked about fit (Mario Chalmers literally talked about adjusting, which means trying to fit in. That doesn't mean Mario didn't improve as a player). Where in the 3 quotes from Wade/Bosh/Chalmers that you posted say anywhere that Lebron didn't help them improve their game?

You don't think Lebron (known for his efficiency) didn't help Wade become a more efficient scorer during their time together? Or that Bosh becoming a better defender had nothing to do with his teammate (Lebron and Battier) being a DPOY candidate and helping him? You don't think Lebron teached Chalmers how to read the court better to take better shots? You also fail to mention how Bosh and Wade were already farther along in their development than Pippen was so it's not like they had as much to learn as Pippen. How can a guy, who's known to be vocal and who many have said was a great leader (though some of those same guys probably backtracked becuase Lebron just burned them)

Everything you are saying here is just an assumption and nothing to back it up... You are talking as if Spo or Riley did nothing to mature there players and make them better and giving all praise to Lebron for improving there games.




Is Lebron's ability to make his teammates better as good as Jordan's? Who knows, probably not. But how exactly does that affect his legacy or his rankings in an all time setting? The effect on that should be minimal.

But forget about all that for a second and follow the next part below.



That's exactly the point. It doesn't matter how he compares to Jordan. Yet regardless of where people rank him (some have him 10, some 15, some 6, some 4, etc), he's being held to a standard to Jordan in order to bring him down when when bringing up Jordan isn't necessary into a conversation. Same with Kobe or and probably Durant in the future.

The second the idea of Lebron's legacy and all time ranking is in the conversation, we have to validate it by bringing in Jordan into the conversation. As opposed to looking at Lebron's body of work (which is int's right mind is impressive), we have to hold him to a standard we know he can't reach by comparing him to MJ. I can say Lebron is 10th all time and instead of comparing him against other players who are ranked between 8-12 to determine his place, there was way to many who compare him to Jordan just so they can say "he'll never be as good as Jordan", when the conversation doesn't warrant it.

I already said it doesn't matter how he compares to Jordan I said it was ridiculous for you to assume he'll be in the #2 slot all time.

That's it... I'm not sure what else to say about that :shrug:

....

To add I want to say that Lebron has accomplished a lot and I believe he had the physical gifts to best Jordan out of the #1 spot but is lack of competitiveness and mental toughness is what I think killed him from making it to this feat.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 09:22 PM
did he really hurt chalmers feelings? it was obviously a reaction out of frustration, and he apologized afterwards. the only time jordan apologized that i can think of, is when he physically assaulted steve kerr.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 09:23 PM
You still haven't answered my question...

Would he have been considered more competitive if he had stayed in Cleveland and received no help and never won a title? Settling for mediocre support is more competitive to you?

And please please stop with this whole dunk contest thing. Everyone knows the dunk contest is a pile of **** now. Are you really gonna bring that up as something that shows a lack of competitiveness to a degree that will affect his legacy? Really?




Him running from team to team him even saying that he left Miami afterwards because they didn't win a ship clearly shows lack of competitiveness. Also him being afraid of the dunk contest is another example of his lack of competitiveness so I'm not sure why it should be ignored if it's proving my point.

Here's a direct quote from Lebron:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/12196/why-lebron-will-never-do-the-dunk-contest

“If I decided to do it then I would have to win,” James said Thursday after the Miami Heat’s practice. “Otherwise it would be a waste of my Saturday night.”

He is completely afraid of losing if you can't see that then we will have to agree to disagree but like I said he either takes the easy road or bails.



So you're admitting you were wrong when you said he doesn't wanna hurt anyone's feelings? Because in that video he clearly doesn't give a damn about hurting Mario's feelings.

No I'm not and I also pointed out that Mario didn't give a **** and it didn't look like his feelings were hurt.

Also he apologized right afterwards that is really the only clip of Lebron showing any anger at all... LOL.





Once again, the main backbone of your argument centers around an exhibition dunking contest. This is no way, shape or form affects someones legacy who has just turned 30 and has 4 MVP's, 2 rings and 2 Finals MVP's.



I cited 3 different examples and used the dunk contest as one example to show is lack of competitiveness you are just saying things now that are not true. Look back at the previous post if you want to.

Which leads me back to another question you have failed to answer...


You're questioning how much LeBron wants to win? Yet earlier you said he took the easy road to championships. If he didn't have the passion to win why did he leave the Cavs and become the villain of the NBA to win at all costs?

Please try harder this time.

I questioned his competitiveness and mental toughness. He wants to win without a doubt he just afraid of losing as if cited a million times giving reasons and examples why.

I also said that he had all the physical gifts to be the GOAT and best Jordan but it was his mental toughness and fear of losing that held him back from achieving that mount rushmore status.

FraziersKnicks
01-04-2015, 09:33 PM
Him running from team to team him even saying that he left Miami afterwards because they didn't win a ship clearly shows lack of competitiveness. Also him being afraid of the dunk contest is another example of his lack of competitiveness so I'm not sure why it should be ignored if it's proving my point.

Here's a direct quote from Lebron:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/12196/why-lebron-will-never-do-the-dunk-contest

“If I decided to do it then I would have to win,” James said Thursday after the Miami Heat’s practice. “Otherwise it would be a waste of my Saturday night.”

He is completely afraid of losing if you can't see that then we will have to agree to disagree but like I said he either takes the easy road or bails.

Your ability to so obviously contradict yourself is fascinating.

He comes out and says if he wants to do the dunk contest he would have to win it... Yet he shows no competitiveness? Surely if he wasn't competitive he wouldn't care and would just do it?


He wants to win without a doubt he just afraid of losing as if cited a million times giving reasons and examples why.

Which is funny because a few posts ago you said this:


All they wanted was to win and when you look at Lebrons leadership he doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and he just wants everyone to like him even above winning IMO.

So what is it? Does he want to win or be liked? Make your mind up.

I have also come to the conclusion you simply have no answer for my question in regards to him being deemed more competitive if he stayed in Cleveland with the mediocre talent around him since you have avoided addressing it twice now.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 09:34 PM
I just want to start this post by saying that you never addressed anything that I said that made Lebron mentally weak and lacks a competitive nature and my reasons why .... You went straight into Micheal Jordan is not a great leader.

But ok sure:


thats because both kobe and jordan are egomaniacs, his trash talking isn't leader ship, hes just pissed and wants to disrespects his team mates. thats why you rarely see either kobe or jordan take any blame.




is this leadership?


Yes... He took charge and said don't put the ball in a **** players hands... So yes.



what about this?

I'm not sure the exact circumstances but if he's doing that before a game and focusing on that instead of the game then yes.

You might as well post them all if you want even though you have the link there in your other post but he's not ripping because it makes him feel good or because he has anger issues he's pretty much saying get your head in the *******-ing game. I could see Lebron saying can I help you sort those tickets... LOL. If your the leader you can't be the nice guy all the time sometimes you have to push buttons to push people to there limits.




Here's a quote from John Little when he went for runs with Bruce Lee:


“Bruce had me up to three miles a day, really at a good pace. We’d run the three miles in twenty-one or twenty-two minutes. Just under eight minutes a mile [Note: when running on his own in 1968, Lee would get his time down to six-and-a half minutes per mile]. So this morning he said to me “We’re going to go five.” I said, “Bruce, I can’t go five. I’m a helluva lot older than you are, and I can’t do five.” He said, “When we get to three, we’ll shift gears and it’s only two more and you’ll do it.” I said “Okay, hell, I’ll go for it.” So we get to three, we go into the fourth mile and I’m okay for three or four minutes, and then I really begin to give out. I’m tired, my heart’s pounding, I can’t go any more and so I say to him, “Bruce if I run any more,” –and we’re still running-”if I run any more I’m liable to have a heart attack and die.” Bruce said, “Then die.” It made me so mad that I went the full five miles. Afterward I went to the shower and then I wanted to talk to him about it. I said, you know, “Why did you say that?” He said, “Because you might as well be dead. Seriously, if you always put limits on what you can do, physical or anything else, it’ll spread over into the rest of your life. It’ll spread into your work, into your morality, into your entire being. There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level.”

Bruce was not trying to go egomaniac on him nor did he have anger issues but instead pushed him to the next level... There was no "come on buddy you can do it... Everythings going to be alright... Let's hug this thing out". When the guy whined and complained that he might die Bruce just told him to die then... LOL. Doesn't mean he's a bad leader or an egomaniac but it just shows the mentality of another great albeit arguably the greatest martial artist of all time. Sure some of the players might have been mad like in the above example but I guarantee if Scottie went 2-16 again he'd be mad before Micheal and I bet the other guy you mentioned wasn't sorting tickets before a game again. He pretty much got everyone's head in the game.

Jordan pretty much won 6 straight championships with his leadership Lebron does not compare in these categories of leadership or mental toughness at all when compared to Jordan and most of the other greats that he's in company with on the all time list.

Everyone is acting like I'm saying Lebron is a crap player or something I'm just saying he's not that mentally tough and he likes to take easy street or bail when he knows the odds are against him which he's proven time and time again. Not sure why it's being denied.

Lebrons a great player... An all time great no doubt... but the reasons I'm citing is why I believe he didn't reach his full potential as a player as I said he had all the physical gifts to best Jordan but it was his insecurities on losing that killed his road to the top of mount rushmore.

bucketss
01-04-2015, 09:48 PM
you're gonna criticize lebron for yelling at chalmers, but make excuses for jordans clear bullying. im done, you're too biased.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 09:52 PM
Your ability to so obviously contradict yourself is fascinating.

He comes out and says if he wants to do the dunk contest he would have to win it... Yet he shows no competitiveness? Surely if he wasn't competitive he wouldn't care and would just do it?

I'm not sure what there is to explain or how I contradicted myself??? Jordan wasn't gauranteed to win the dunk contest but he joined and won twice. Lebron said he would not join unless he were to win... He said he would enter and bailed then he held his own dunk contest AGAINST HIMSELF and then said if he entered the dunk contest he would win it.

What do you find competitive and contradicting about the above?




Which is funny because a few posts ago you said this:



So what is it? Does he want to win or be liked? Make your mind up.

I have also come to the conclusion you simply have no answer for my question in regards to him being deemed more competitive if he stayed in Cleveland with the mediocre talent around him since you have avoided addressing it twice now.

I think your getting a little too angry about this... It's just a forum dude calm down.

He wants to be liked man it's obvious I'm not sure how you don't see this either and I'm not saying he doesn't want to win I said he wants to be liked above winning "in my opinion" you can have yours so we can agree to disagree if you like on this.

I thought I answered you question adequately regarding Cleveland but I'll answer it directly here:

Like him being afraid of the dunk contest and saying he would only enter if he was guaranteed to win shows a lack of competitiveness. How can you call something a competition when you know you are going to win... This is why he never entered I find this the same with Cleveland he left and joined a the 2nd best player in the league after him (some argue top 3 but whatever) and one of the best PF's in Bosh. He even danced around on stage gloating about how many championships he would win. He wanted that to be guaranteed it's just part of his nature to take the easy road to win.

I think you know my answer to your question but yes I think he would have been more competitive if he stayed in Cleveland instead of following the patterns that show lack of competetiveness above:

1. Leaving the Cavs to join the 2nd best player in the league along with Bosh as one of the best PF's
2. Leaving Miami and publicly saying that he left because they didn't win a ship last year
3. Not entering the dunk contest because he's not guaranteed to win.

All of the above scream lack of a competitive nature when comparing him to the other greats he's in company with.

Again I did say he had all the physical gifts to be the GOAT and best Jordan but it was his mental toughness and fear of losing that held him back from achieving that mount rushmore status. He is a hell of a player and on the all time great list for sure I'm just pointing out what stopped him from being the GOAT as I believe he could have achieved that if he was tougher mentally.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 10:01 PM
you're gonna criticize lebron for yelling at chalmers, but make excuses for jordans clear bullying. im done, you're too biased.

LOL... How did I criticize him??? You can quote me if you want I'll take the flack even though you are mad about another posters post that has nothing to do with yours which I find incredibly silly.

I said he didn't have Chalmers respect and he clearly didn't in that video and if you read the quotes after he left Miami that I posted directly to you it proves my point once again.

Anyways good debate dude. Hope you liked my Bruce Lee quote and feel free to come back at me if you want to respond to my last 2 posts. I'll respond to you.

edit:


I just want to add how stupid would it sound if I said:

Yeah when Lebron cussed out Chalmers when he himself screwed up it showed great leadership and it also got him Chalmers respect and to get his head into the game??? Honestly it would we both know it did the opposite and Chalmers was probably like WTF is this guys problem he screws up and yells at me.

Lebron immediately apologized after the play saying it was his bad

Not much more to add to that.

ghettosean
01-04-2015, 10:28 PM
yes. after everyone started bashing him in defense of their god jordan.

This is what bias sounds like btw

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 10:38 PM
I completely addressed the quote you responded to that any praise he might have gotten not that I know he actually recieved is out weighed by ex teammates talking about frustrations in working/playing with him. I posted a link already showing a few btw.

I could probably find a lot of posts about Jordan and Kobe being absolute dicks who probably ruined self-esteem and ability to make on court decisions. Yet the idea that Jordan made his teammates better still exists. I don't really care whether or not people think Lebron helps their game or not (I think he does but if someone says he doesn't, doesn't really matter), but for some reason our conversation right now is you literally pointing out quotes of frustration regarding Lebron but I could probably easily find as much quotes about Jordan that portray him negatively yet it's not being brought up and we aren't saying "his negatives outweigh the positives". The notion that Jordan could be a dick to Pippen turned him into a superstar very much exists (and it seems like they don't think Pippen would have been great without Jordan is thought of as fact) but the second other players share their frustration with Kobe or Lebron, they have a negative reputation.

No one here ever points out how Pippen's offensive game was never fully developed because he had to take a back seat to Jordan and adjust his game to compliment him (read an article where someone in the Bulls organization said they wanted to focus Pippen way more defensively than offensively meaning Jordan was a reason Pippen's offensive game wasn't developed). Yet apparently Jordan was the best thing that ever happened to Pippen in many eyes.


Everything you are saying here is just an assumption and nothing to back it up... You are talking as if Spo or Riley did nothing to mature there players and make them better and giving all praise to Lebron for improving there games.

Exactly, see I knew you were going to say that which is why I worded my post the way it was. See how ridiculous it sounds? Waaaay too many times will you find the statement "Jordan turned Pippen into a superstar" thinking as if Jordan was the main reason Pippen became the player he is, yet for players like Kobe and Lebron, we don't even look at them with the same regard regarding their teammates improvements.

I do agree that Spo and Riley had a lot to do with players developing and I don't think Lebron should get all the praise for it. Yet for some reason, we tend to look at Jordan as some Godly figure who did it himself.


I already said it doesn't matter how he compares to Jordan I said it was ridiculous for you to assume he'll be in the #2 slot all time.

That's it... I'm not sure what else to say about that :shrug:

....

To add I want to say that Lebron has accomplished a lot and I believe he had the physical gifts to best Jordan out of the #1 spot but is lack of competitiveness and mental toughness is what I think killed him from making it to this feat.

You think it's ridiculous that I think a guy, with the potential to be in the #2-5, will achieve his potential and be #2? LOL. It's not like Lebron has no chance to be #2. He has like 7 years left in his career and has accomplished so much and has the potential to achieve more.

redhorse
01-04-2015, 11:38 PM
I could probably find a lot of posts about Jordan and Kobe being absolute dicks who probably ruined self-esteem and ability to make on court decisions. Yet the idea that Jordan made his teammates better still exists. I don't really care whether or not people think Lebron helps their game or not (I think he does but if someone says he doesn't, doesn't really matter), but for some reason our conversation right now is you literally pointing out quotes of frustration regarding Lebron but I could probably easily find as much quotes about Jordan that portray him negatively yet it's not being brought up and we aren't saying "his negatives outweigh the positives". The notion that Jordan could be a dick to Pippen turned him into a superstar very much exists (and it seems like they don't think Pippen would have been great without Jordan is thought of as fact) but the second other players share their frustration with Kobe or Lebron, they have a negative reputation.

No one here ever points out how Pippen's offensive game was never fully developed because he had to take a back seat to Jordan and adjust his game to compliment him (read an article where someone in the Bulls organization said they wanted to focus Pippen way more defensively than offensively meaning Jordan was a reason Pippen's offensive game wasn't developed). Yet apparently Jordan was the best thing that ever happened to Pippen in many eyes.



Exactly, see I knew you were going to say that which is why I worded my post the way it was. See how ridiculous it sounds? Waaaay too many times will you find the statement "Jordan turned Pippen into a superstar" thinking as if Jordan was the main reason Pippen became the player he is, yet for players like Kobe and Lebron, we don't even look at them with the same regard regarding their teammates improvements.

I do agree that Spo and Riley had a lot to do with players developing and I don't think Lebron should get all the praise for it. Yet for some reason, we tend to look at Jordan as some Godly figure who did it himself.



You think it's ridiculous that I think a guy, with the potential to be in the #2-5, will achieve his potential and be #2? LOL. It's not like Lebron has no chance to be #2. He has like 7 years left in his career and has accomplished so much and has the potential to achieve more.

So what if jordan was that way.... brady is like that too and most great players are that way....and it didnt seem like it bothered his teammates they still won 6 rings and pretty much dominated that era..... and u read or hear jordans former teammates how he was the most competetive person they met....how practices with him were tougher than the actual game.... he demanded his teammates be as ready as he was.....thats how he was a leader....

Raps18-19 Champ
01-04-2015, 11:53 PM
So what if jordan was that way.... brady is like that too and most great players are that way....and it didnt seem like it bothered his teammates they still won 6 rings and pretty much dominated that era..... and u read or hear jordans former teammates how he was the most competetive person they met....how practices with him were tougher than the actual game.... he demanded his teammates be as ready as he was.....thats how he was a leader....

Demanding his teammates to be great is good. But there's always the positive side we see to Jordan while we completely focus on the negatives of Lebron or Kobe. Lebron was considered to be the leader of the Olympic team and he's gotten praise from many coaches and players that he's a good leader. Same with Kobe. Yet we criticize both of them.

There's an idea that Jordan always brought out the best in people yet there were probably players who could never establish themselves because of Jordan's leadership techniques. I'm not saying Jordan wasn't a good leader, but people can't exactly say "X player isn't a good leader because his teammates critiqued him" when Jordan had many reported negatives on his leadership ability as well (when he's looked at as a good leader).

Chrisclover
01-05-2015, 02:53 AM
btw, Irving is a superstar?
He may not be a superstar right now but he will.
I understand that there are a glut of PGs in the NBA, but Irving's potential just knows no bounds. He has already won all-star MVP, World Cup MVP and enjoys tremendous popularity among fans. Now LBJ is about to gently decline, so if Irving can polish his game better, he will thrive.

smiddy012
01-05-2015, 04:12 AM
Lebron should just buy his own franchise, be the GM as well, cut out the middle man. Hell he can be the coach too. Not even MJ could do that, and that's a fact!

FraziersKnicks
01-05-2015, 08:26 AM
I'm not sure what there is to explain or how I contradicted myself??? Jordan wasn't gauranteed to win the dunk contest but he joined and won twice. Lebron said he would not join unless he were to win... He said he would enter and bailed then he held his own dunk contest AGAINST HIMSELF and then said if he entered the dunk contest he would win it.

What do you find competitive and contradicting about the above?

The thing is you're still using an exhibition dunk contest to critique someone's passion and competitiveness for the game of basketball. Until you see how ridiculous that is, I'm not gonna carry on this argument. Especially when that said player has won pretty much every single award available to him since entering the league...


I think your getting a little too angry about this... It's just a forum dude calm down.

He wants to be liked man it's obvious I'm not sure how you don't see this either and I'm not saying he doesn't want to win I said he wants to be liked above winning "in my opinion" you can have yours so we can agree to disagree if you like on this.

I'm chilled bro, don't worry. I just find it funny that you can't seem to stick to one opinion. If LeBron wanted to be liked he would've stayed in Cleveland and tried to win with the Mo Williams' and 37 year old Shaq's that Danny Ferry kept giving him.

He made the decision to go to Miami with 2 very good players. He put himself in a position that Magic, MJ, Bird, Kobe, Timmy all where drafted in to. Magic had Worthy and Kareem, Michael got Pippen and Rodman, Bird had McHale and Parrish, Kobe got Shaq, Timmy got Tony and Manu, LeBron had....... Big Z and Mo Williams.

No one would've criticised MJ for leaving the Bulls after getting bounced from the playoffs the first 6 seasons of his career. Pippen finally broke out and when MJ had the help he needed they starting winning. LeBron should never be questioned for his competitiveness because he left Cleveland. Why people hold him to the same standards as the HOF players I've mentioned above will always boggle my mind. All of those players had HOF talent on their team with them, LeBron gave the Cavs 7 years to get him help and they gave him Mo Williams. What more do you want for LeBron to do?

LeBron's career has followed a very different trajectory to these players but everyone seems to dismiss that. They all had a huge amount of help on the teams that drafted them and never needed to move teams. I know why everyone's salty though... Fans of rival teams saw how incredible LeBron was and they were licking their lips at the fact his generational talent was wasting away in Cleveland. They got mad because when he moved to a team with the necessary help, he would start dominating the league like the Birds and the Magics.


I thought I answered you question adequately regarding Cleveland but I'll answer it directly here:

Like him being afraid of the dunk contest and saying he would only enter if he was guaranteed to win shows a lack of competitiveness. How can you call something a competition when you know you are going to win... This is why he never entered I find this the same with Cleveland he left and joined a the 2nd best player in the league after him (some argue top 3 but whatever) and one of the best PF's in Bosh. He even danced around on stage gloating about how many championships he would win. He wanted that to be guaranteed it's just part of his nature to take the easy road to win.

Once again you are comparing winning an NBA title to a dunk contest. Nothing was ever guaranteed. He simply put himself in a better position to win an NBA championship than he was in in Cleveland. That absolutely does not show a lack of competitiveness. If anything it shows even more passion to win at all costs.


I think you know my answer to your question but yes I think he would have been more competitive if he stayed in Cleveland instead of following the patterns that show lack of competetiveness above:

1. Leaving the Cavs to join the 2nd best player in the league along with Bosh as one of the best PF's
2. Leaving Miami and publicly saying that he left because they didn't win a ship last year
3. Not entering the dunk contest because he's not guaranteed to win.

All of the above scream lack of a competitive nature when comparing him to the other greats he's in company with.

Again I did say he had all the physical gifts to be the GOAT and best Jordan but it was his mental toughness and fear of losing that held him back from achieving that mount rushmore status. He is a hell of a player and on the all time great list for sure I'm just pointing out what stopped him from being the GOAT as I believe he could have achieved that if he was tougher mentally.

So if he had stayed and Cleveland and he was still ringless now would you say his legacy would look better than it currently does? Because by your standards that would be the case.

If LeBron had been drafted into the Lakers organisation and played with a prime Shaq and won 6 titles would you consider him a mentally stronger person? I think you're confusing mental strength with being drafted into the perfect situation.

Tbh if I was having this conversation with someone who wasn't a notorious LeBron hater I would be more inclined to keep going around in circles. As you're mentioned on numerous occasions, this is all YOUR OPINION (something that means nothing to me when it's biased like yours).

You don't like LeBron so you have a very negative opinion about everything he does. I have never seen one positive post from you about LeBron in the whole time I've been on this forum, so I'm wasting my time having this discussion.

In 20 years time people aren't gonna say "LeBron had no passion for the game, he promised to do the dunk contest and didn't wah wah wah". They'll look back on those early Cavs teams and say "who the hell is Zydrunas Ilgauskas?!" and then see all of LeBron's accolades and put him as one of the all-time greats. It's that simple.

ghettosean
01-05-2015, 02:55 PM
The thing is you're still using an exhibition dunk contest to critique someone's passion and competitiveness for the game of basketball. Until you see how ridiculous that is, I'm not gonna carry on this argument. Especially when that said player has won pretty much every single award available to him since entering the league...


You talk as if his career is over. How can you say he isn't competitive? Would he have been considered more competitive if he had stayed in Cleveland and received no help and never won a title? Settling for mediocre support is more competitive to you? He's mentally weak for not entering a dunk contest? God, you're clutching at straws now...



You still haven't answered my question...

Would he have been considered more competitive if he had stayed in Cleveland and received no help and never won a title? Settling for mediocre support is more competitive to you?

And please please stop with this whole dunk contest thing. Everyone knows the dunk contest is a pile of **** now. Are you really gonna bring that up as something that shows a lack of competitiveness to a degree that will affect his legacy? Really?


Your ability to so obviously contradict yourself is fascinating.

He comes out and says if he wants to do the dunk contest he would have to win it... Yet he shows no competitiveness? Surely if he wasn't competitive he wouldn't care and would just do it?


All I needed to read was your first paragraph and that was it for reading your post.... I can see that you are continuing to twist my words as I mentioned in previous posts. You are calling 1 of the many points I've made in my argument and calling it ridiculous (which is fine you are entitled to your own opinion) but that fact that you keep harping on it is incredible and you act as if it's my only point and as if I continue to bring it up on my own... LOL. I'm not sure if you are doing that at an attempt to discredit me or you simply don't notice that you yourself keep attacking that point. When you bash that point I'm obviously going to defend it so yes I keep bringing it up and defending it because of all the above quotes (there are more that only some of them):


Sorry but hopefully this will make it clear why I used the dunk competition as one and only one of the multiple examples as to why Lebron lacks a competitive nature and is afraid of losing:

Again I want to make it clear that this is only a sample and just one of the points I brought up as to why I believe that Lebron lacks a competitive nature.


************************************************** ***************************
************************************************** ***************************
************************************************** ***************************
- Lebron himself says he's entering the dunk competition in 2009

- Lebron mysteriously is not on the list of names in 2010 to COMPETE in the dunk competition

- Lebron says he would only compete the dunk competition if the 1st prize was a million dollars in 2012

- Magic Johnson puts up 1 million dollars to adhere to Lebrons request so he will compete the dunk competition in 2013

- Lebron again declines in 2013 to compete the dunk competition saying he would only enter the dunk competition if he were to win

- Lebron holds his own dunk competition AGAINST HIMSELF then says he would win the nba all star dunk competition if he competed in it
************************************************** ***************************
************************************************** ***************************
************************************************** ***************************

When you look at all of the above how can you even think for a second that this guy doesn't lack a competitive nature and just bails when he thinks there is a chance of losing. You can keep dismissing this one point among many if you want to keep your blinders on but this is what I'm seeing. I also do not believe that him not entering the dunk contest will have a huge affect on his legacy but it was and is a clear example of his fear of losing and lack of competitiveness all of the above examples is just to prove one and only one of my points so I'm not sure why you are still denying this.

Lebron is afraid of losing where players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to compete and win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time... You know #1 without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that Mount Rushmore status that he claimed himself before his time is done. Lebron is an all time great I'm not nor have I ever said otherwise but he just doesn't have the competitive drive of the other greats that he's in company with if he did he probably would be the GOAT imo.

You said you don't want to continue this if I would use the dunk competition as one of my points as to why Lebron lacks a competitive nature and is afraid of losing and I see no need in running in circles with you as you ask more questions (the same questions really) more than anything else and if you refute anything you just say something like "that's ridiculous" instead of giving reason so by all means go and put your blinders on and tell the story of Lebron the ultimate competitor and a king among men :facepalm:

Kenny Powders
01-05-2015, 03:01 PM
All I needed to read was your first paragraph and that was it for reading your post.... I can see that you are continuing to twist my words as I mentioned in previous posts. You are calling 1 of the many points I've made in my argument and calling it ridiculous (which is fine you are entitled to your own opinion) but that fact that you keep harping on it is incredible and you act as if it's my only point and as if I continue to bring it up on my own... LOL. I'm not sure if you are doing that at an attempt to discredit me or you simply don't notice that you yourself keep attacking that point. When you bash that point I'm obviously going to defend it so yes I keep bringing it up and defending it because of all the above quotes (there are more that only some of them):


Sorry but hopefully this will make it clear why I used the dunk competition as one and only one of the multiple examples as to why Lebron lacks a competitive nature and is afraid of losing:

Again I want to make it clear that this is only a sample and just one of the points I brought up as to why I believe that Lebron lacks a competitive nature.


************************************************** ***************************
************************************************** ***************************
************************************************** ***************************
- Lebron himself says he's entering the dunk competition in 2009

- Lebron mysteriously is not on the list of names in 2010 to COMPETE in the dunk competition

- Lebron says he would only compete the dunk competition if the 1st prize was a million dollars in 2012

- Magic Johnson puts up 1 million dollars to adhere to Lebrons request so he will compete the dunk competition in 2013

- Lebron again declines in 2013 to compete the dunk competition saying he would only enter the dunk competition if he were to win

- Lebron holds his own dunk competition AGAINST HIMSELF then says he would win the nba all star dunk competition if he competed in it
************************************************** ***************************
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When you look at all of the above how can you even think for a second that this guy doesn't lack a competitive nature and just bails when he thinks there is a chance of losing. You can keep dismissing this one point among many if you want to keep your blinders on but this is what I'm seeing. I also do not believe that him not entering the dunk contest will have a huge affect on his legacy but it was and is a clear example of his fear of losing and lack of competitiveness all of the above examples is just to prove one and only one of my points so I'm not sure why you are still denying this.

Lebron is afraid of losing where players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to compete and win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time... You know #1 without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that Mount Rushmore status that he claimed himself before his time is done. Lebron is an all time great I'm not nor have I ever said otherwise but he just doesn't have the competitive drive of the other greats that he's in company with if he did he probably would be the GOAT imo.

You said you don't want to continue this if I would use the dunk competition as one of my points as to why Lebron lacks a competitive nature and is afraid of losing and I see no need in running in circles with you as you ask more questions (the same questions really) more than anything else and if you refute it you just say something like "that's ridiculous" instead of giving reason so by all means go and put your blinders on and tell the story of Lebron the ultimate competitor and a king among men :facepalm:

What's your obsession with putting things in extra large text.

ghettosean
01-05-2015, 03:05 PM
What's your obsession with putting things in extra large text.

If a subject has been beaten to death like :horse: you can see in the multiple times the poster has harped on the subject I put it in large text as he brought up the same thing 5 - 6 times and complains that that I'm talking about it.

So basically I hate repeating myself.

ghettosean
01-05-2015, 04:48 PM
I could probably find a lot of posts about Jordan and Kobe being absolute dicks who probably ruined self-esteem and ability to make on court decisions. Yet the idea that Jordan made his teammates better still exists. I don't really care whether or not people think Lebron helps their game or not (I think he does but if someone says he doesn't, doesn't really matter), but for some reason our conversation right now is you literally pointing out quotes of frustration regarding Lebron but I could probably easily find as much quotes about Jordan that portray him negatively yet it's not being brought up and we aren't saying "his negatives outweigh the positives". The notion that Jordan could be a dick to Pippen turned him into a superstar very much exists (and it seems like they don't think Pippen would have been great without Jordan is thought of as fact) but the second other players share their frustration with Kobe or Lebron, they have a negative reputation.

No one here ever points out how Pippen's offensive game was never fully developed because he had to take a back seat to Jordan and adjust his game to compliment him (read an article where someone in the Bulls organization said they wanted to focus Pippen way more defensively than offensively meaning Jordan was a reason Pippen's offensive game wasn't developed). Yet apparently Jordan was the best thing that ever happened to Pippen in many eyes.



Exactly, see I knew you were going to say that which is why I worded my post the way it was. See how ridiculous it sounds? Waaaay too many times will you find the statement "Jordan turned Pippen into a superstar" thinking as if Jordan was the main reason Pippen became the player he is, yet for players like Kobe and Lebron, we don't even look at them with the same regard regarding their teammates improvements.

I do agree that Spo and Riley had a lot to do with players developing and I don't think Lebron should get all the praise for it. Yet for some reason, we tend to look at Jordan as some Godly figure who did it himself.



You think it's ridiculous that I think a guy, with the potential to be in the #2-5, will achieve his potential and be #2? LOL. It's not like Lebron has no chance to be #2. He has like 7 years left in his career and has accomplished so much and has the potential to achieve more.

I actually agree with some of this post that if you looked you would 100% find some detrimental stuff about Kobe if you want to find that then look no farther than Phil Jacksons book. Kobe hated Shaq and was so disruptive back then that he caused Phil to go into counseling... LOL. None of this has to do with his leadership though but if there is an example of it it would be in that book.

As far as what you are saying about Pippen I don't agree but I also agree... LOL. Honestly I have no clue what kind of player Pippen would be if he was never on the same team as Jordan or if Pippen was on a team where he was the leader and star player. Maybe he would be a top 10 great of all time maybe higher or maybe he'd be just an all star I honestly can't answer that. Would Jordan have won the same amount of rings? Again I don't know but he did win all his rings with Scottie and I will add he was the perfect draft choice out of everyone available (aside from David Robinson of course). It's all hypothetical but Pippen is on records as saying that Jordan did help him become better and playing against the best made him that much better of a player. I believe the other poster mentioned that players said games were easier than the practices that Jordan put them through.

You are right that there may be a whole lot of basketball left in Lebron but as far as him sliding into the #2 spot I think that ship has sailed a longtime ago but who knows I may be proven wrong well have to see what he brings going forward well see come playoff time as to what he has left in the tank.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-05-2015, 05:08 PM
I actually agree with some of this post that if you looked you would 100% find some detrimental stuff about Kobe if you want to find that then look no farther than Phil Jacksons book. Kobe hated Shaq and was so disruptive back then that he caused Phil to go into counseling... LOL. None of this has to do with his leadership though but if there is an example of it it would be in that book.

As far as what you are saying about Pippen I don't agree but I also agree... LOL. Honestly I have no clue what kind of player Pippen would be if he was never on the same team as Jordan or if Pippen was on a team where he was the leader and star player. Maybe he would be a top 10 great of all time maybe higher or maybe he'd be just an all star I honestly can't answer that. Would Jordan have won the same amount of rings? Again I don't know but he did win all his rings with Scottie and I will add he was the perfect draft choice out of everyone available (aside from David Robinson of course). It's all hypothetical but Pippen is on records as saying that Jordan did help him become better and playing against the best made him that much better of a player. I believe the other poster mentioned that players said games were easier than the practices that Jordan put them through.

You are right that there may be a whole lot of basketball left in Lebron but as far as him sliding into the #2 spot I think that ship has sailed a longtime ago but who knows I may be proven wrong well have to see what he brings going forward well see come playoff time as to what he has left in the tank.

Jordan definitely helped Pippen. The problem is it's always morphed into giving Jordan more credit when Pippen on his own right had the potential to be a great player. Then it's held against other players (like Kobe, Lebron and in the future, probably Durant) when they never had the same opportunity to play with a top 5 pick with star potential.

FraziersKnicks
01-05-2015, 05:22 PM
Lebron is afraid of losing where players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe...etc is they didn't give a **** what anyone thought. They wanted to compete and win at all costs no matter what but they did not fear losing and public opinion.... they hated to lose and it made them work harder to be the all time greats they are. If Lebron had that same drive he would be the greatest of all time... You know #1 without a doubt but I think his insecurities hindered him from achieving that Mount Rushmore status that he claimed himself before his time is done. Lebron is an all time great I'm not nor have I ever said otherwise but he just doesn't have the competitive drive of the other greats that he's in company with if he did he probably would be the GOAT imo.

You said you don't want to continue this if I would use the dunk competition as one of my points as to why Lebron lacks a competitive nature and is afraid of losing and I see no need in running in circles with you as you ask more questions (the same questions really) more than anything else and if you refute anything you just say something like "that's ridiculous" instead of giving reason so by all means go and put your blinders on and tell the story of Lebron the ultimate competitor and a king among men :facepalm:

So when LeBron left Cleveland to go to Miami and compete at all costs whilst clearly not fearing public opinion was he not doing EXACTLY what you just said made Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe so competitive?

You seem like you have very different standards as to what makes a player competitive.

JordansBulls
01-05-2015, 05:53 PM
Jordan definitely helped Pippen. The problem is it's always morphed into giving Jordan more credit when Pippen on his own right had the potential to be a great player. Then it's held against other players (like Kobe, Lebron and in the future, probably Durant) when they never had the same opportunity to play with a top 5 pick with star potential.

Kryie Irving, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Love. All of which were stars before playing with Lebron and all of which got worse playing with him.

ghettosean
01-05-2015, 05:55 PM
Jordan definitely helped Pippen. The problem is it's always morphed into giving Jordan more credit when Pippen on his own right had the potential to be a great player. Then it's held against other players (like Kobe, Lebron and in the future, probably Durant) when they never had the same opportunity to play with a top 5 pick with star potential.

In all honesty I don't really hold too much weight into a superstar bringing up a younger star... It's definitely a positive attribute to be sure but I wouldn't hold much weight with it on an all time scale. Though if you want to use a comparison of a superstar player who could bring up another player out of the list you made above then Kevin Durant could be in that conversation because if he can get that guys head on straight that would be an incredible accomplishment all on it's own. If that's the plan he sure has his work cut out for him... LOL.

JordansBulls
01-05-2015, 05:56 PM
So that's on Lebron and not the fact that maybe there was no one there who could've been a star anyway? Tell me one person who could've bencome a superstar that Lebron has played with?

Big Z was an allstar before playing with Lebron and made it his 2nd season with him as well. Also Ben Wallace.
The guy who had the potential to be a star was JJ Hickson, he came in just like Pippen did.

FraziersKnicks
01-05-2015, 06:06 PM
Big Z was an allstar before playing with Lebron and made it his 2nd season with him as well. Also Ben Wallace.
The guy who had the potential to be a star was JJ Hickson, he came in just like Pippen did.

JJ Hickson > Scottie Pippen

bucketss
01-05-2015, 06:06 PM
Big Z was an allstar before playing with Lebron and made it his 2nd season with him as well. Also Ben Wallace.
The guy who had the potential to be a star was JJ Hickson, he came in just like Pippen did.

let me guess, if jj hickson played with jordan he would have ended up on the top 50 players of all time.

bucketss
01-05-2015, 06:09 PM
Kryie Irving, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Love. All of which were stars before playing with Lebron and all of which got worse playing with him.

LOL, actually bosh didn't get worse, his numbers went down because he played with 2 others stars, which means he doesn't get as much touches. his shooting percentage went up, and he became a better three point shooter along side bron, irving seems to be the same as last year, and love was putting up big numbers on a very bad team. still not a big enough sample size with them.